The Big Picture - 'Captain America: The First Avenger' | Marvel Month

Episode Date: March 29, 2019

In the first episode of our Marvel Cinematic Universe series—dropping once a week in the lead-up to ‘Avengers: Endgame’—Sean and Amanda go deep on the first Captain America movie. How did this movie set the tone for patriotism in superhero movies? Did it succeed as a period piece/spy drama? Why don’t Avengers have more sex? Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Liz Kelley. As we approach the final season of Game of Thrones on April 14th, The Ringer is providing you with a deep dive on the show's first seven seasons and what to expect from season eight. Up on the website, staff writers like Alison Herman, Alyssa Bresnak, Zach Cram, and many more are analyzing what loose ends the show needs to address in the last season. Up on the video side, our resident Game of Thrones experts Mallory Rubin and Jason Concepcion are breaking down the show's top 25 moments in the 25 days leading up to the finale. You can find each day's videos up on our social channels like Facebook and Twitter

and the compilation videos on youtube.com slash The Ringer at the end of each week. And make sure to keep an eye out for even more Thrones coverage coming from us as we get closer to April 14th. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

I'm joined today by my frequent collaborator on The Big Picture, Amanda Dobbins. Hello, Amanda. Hi, Sean. We're talking about the Marvel Cinematic Universe for a couple of reasons, Amanda. I'm going to lay those out. So at the end of the month of April, there's a film coming out. That film is called Avengers Endgame. Are you familiar with this movie?

I've heard of it. Okay. So it is the sequel to Avengers Infinity War, which was the sequel to some other movies. There, in fact, have been 22 of these movies, all told. And some of them are good and some of them are bad. But all of them explain something about where movies are going. And I thought it would be an interesting experiment to sit down with a few people, yourself included, that work at The Ringer and elsewhere, and talk about the particular choices that the filmmakers and Marvel have made in creating basically the most important movie franchise of the century.

And I think in some respects that is ridiculous, absurd, unfortunate. And in other respects, it is a wonderful realization of something that people like me, when I was a young child, really hoped would happen. And it's so funny to think about what happens when you get what you want, because it isn't always exactly as you imagined it. And I'm going to use this hopefully series across five movies to talk to people who have particular insights about what is and isn't effective about movies to understand a little better where we're going as we approach the endgame. So, Amanda, you have asked for a very particular film here. This isn't the first Marvel movie that was ever made.

This isn't the first movie in the MCU. It's in the early stages. It's in phase one, as it's referred to by Marvel. It's Captain America, the first Avenger. Now, before we dive deep into the details of this movie, what was it about this movie that made you think, actually, that would be a fun one to talk about? A few reasons. Number one, it is the first movie starring Chris Evans. And I mean, obviously, Chris Evans is very handsome, but also, I think we should talk a lot about celebrity and movie stardom as it relates to the MCU has been a really fascinating concept. And, you know, many people have blamed the MCU for kind of killing movie stars.

And that's true in some ways and it's not in others. And Chris Evans has kind of been the avatar for fame and like the heavy burden of being a superhero for the last 15 years. So this is kind of where it starts. And that's really interesting. I think this is also this is a movie where it starts. And that's really interesting. I think this is also, this is a movie where Marvel tried a lot of things and then never did them again. And that's very interesting to me. It's a war movie, a spy movie. It's a period piece. It mostly takes place during World War II. And that's interesting to me because I like all of those

things. I like watching those types of movies. And I did want to talk to you about something that I could engage with on a movie level. It's certainly easier for me with this movie than, say, Guardians of the Galaxy. But I think it's also interesting because Marvel movies don't really do that anymore. And this is really the only example of it. I wonder if what happened in this movie is the reason for that or if there was something just defined about this choice, something very closed off we'll get we'll get into that let's just talk good well i'm just gonna say there's also one more thing that's interesting about this um that i kind of want your perspective on but i know all of these movies engage with their comic book origins a lot

but this really captain america i believe is a character that existed before World War II or during World War II. And this is like a kind of a really literal example of these movies engaging with their much older origins and the concept of how does a superhero fit

into modernity versus the era in which it was originally conceived. And I think that's pretty interesting. I completely agree with you. I feel like we've seen it in fits and starts in DC movies, but never really in the MCU except here. Let's just do the details of the movie. So this movie is directed by Joe Johnston, who is a very interesting figure in recent

Hollywood history. We'll talk a little bit about him. He was the director before this movie of some films like Honey, I Shrunk the Kids and The Rocketeer and Jumanji and Jurassic Park 3. And he was a longtime acolyte of George Lucas. And you can see a little bit of George Lucas happening in this movie. So we'll talk about that. The writers of this movie are also very notable. They're Stephen McFeely and Christopher Marcus, who have written about five Marvel movies at this point, including Avengers Infinity War. And they are the writers of Avengers Endgame. They are really the people who have been entrusted over the last decade to tell the big picture story and to make sure that everything fits together. If you look at the future Captain America movies

after this one, particularly Winter Soldier and then Civil War, those movies become less about Captain America and more about all of the Avengers and all of these relationships. So that's notable. As you noted, Chris Evans is the star of this movie. I think Chris Evans is quite a good actor. His career before this movie was kind of strange. He was sort of a comedy actor. I think he first came on my radar in Not Another Teen Movie. Do you remember that? Yeah, he does a real smart aleck throughout many kind of young bro comedies of the 2000s. And he's always like the really handsome guy who is kind of a jerk. Yeah, and his career had progressed enough by the time of Scott Pilgrim that he was already lampooning that persona before he was Captain America.

So this is not like a person who had no CV. Like Chris Hemsworth, when he arrived in Thor, which was the movie that came out right before this in the MCU, people didn't really know who that was. He was a relative unknown who'd come from Australia. Chris Evans was kind of a known quantity, even if he wasn't a superstar. And then of course, there's a kind of oddly deep bench on this movie. Yeah. Given that we didn't see a lot of these people ever again, or if we did see them, they were missing appendages in the future. So Hayley Atwell, of course, plays Agent Peggy Carter, who is the de facto love interest slash MI6 leader in this story. Tommy Lee Jones, Academy Award winner Tommy Lee Jones.

Great in this movie. Just playing a general, being good. Sebastian Stan, of course, plays Bucky Barnes, the soon-to-be Winter Soldier, and Chris Evans' character, Steve Rogers' best friend. Stanley Tucci plays Dr. Erskine, who is a German scientist who has been expelled from Germany or fled Germany in the aftermath of the fascist dictates of a man named Johann Schmidt, who at some time worked for Adolf Hitler, but then took a crazy serum, went mad, and became the Red Skull.

We're going to talk about the Red Skull in a little while. He's, of course, played by Hugo Weaving of The Matrix fame. Toby Jones, also just a great actor, being the right-hand man of the Red Skull. Why not? I assume the paycheck was good for him. Dominic Cooper, very good actor, playing a young Howard Stark, Tony Stark's father. In the Iron Man films, he, of course, is played by John Slattery, aka Roger Sterling, and Neil McDonough, who's just an actor that I like, who's in this movie and has a handlebar

mustache. Why not? Pretty good cast. Yeah. Do you look at what the cast of a movie like this are going to be before you enter? I don't think that I did in 2011. It was interesting re-watching this because now we expect that every great actor will just like take a Marvel paycheck at some point. They were used to seeing like Annette Bening being in Captain Marvel. Why not? Get the money. Go for it. Yes. But I don't think I remembered that the casts were this loaded this far back. Yeah. I mean, Anthony Hopkins, of course, appeared in Thor, Rene Russo. There were a hint there had been sort of progress towards this. But this one in particular, I'm like, this is pretty strange that Toby Jones is just playing

like a scientist who has to carry Red Skull's bowling bag. Like it's just really, why not? The movie was released July 22nd, 2011, which is more recent than I would have imagined. It feels like we've been living inside of Marvel for a very long time.

And this being an early entry, but still in this decade is notable to me. It made $370 million at the box office, which is a lot, but not really in the context of where we are now in the box office. And it's only 124 minutes. I still think it's too long, but in the time of the three hour and two minute runtime for the forthcoming Avengers Endgame. I don't acknowledge that. I'm not in that. I just, I refuse. A couple more data points that we should discuss. It has a

Rotten Tomatoes score of 80%, which as you know, is not something that I put a lot of faith into, but it's notable that even in the early stages, these movies were somehow able to conjure a fairly high critical acumen. Average? Yes, average. Of course they were. It's an average. It doesn't mean anything. It's an average. It also had a cinema score of A-. Now there's one other data point that I want to point to. I wanted to ask you about this. So this movie is not distributed by Disney. It's distributed by Paramount.

I was very confused when I rewatched it and the Paramount showed up on the... It's like, what did I miss? Lest we forget that many years ago, I want to say in the late 90s, it might have been... Check that. I think it may be in 2005, Paramount acquired the rights to make a series of Marvel films before Disney bought Marvel outright. And so these films with producer Kevin Feige, when he was working just with Marvel, not as an employee of Disney, started. They began.

Avi Arad was still working there. The Marvel Studios structure was built way before it became part and parcel of Disney. And so these first four films that we're talking about, Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor, and Captain America, the first Avenger, are Paramount movies, which is kind of weird. I had totally forgotten. And of course, the next movie in this series is the Avengers. And that's the first Disney release that's come.

And if you stay tuned to this series of podcasts, maybe we'll talk about the movie, the Avengers. Paramount is a very different company from Disney. And I don't think of it, it is obviously a huge studio, but it is smaller relative to Disney, Warners. It doesn't have as big of an imprint. It doesn't release as many films. It is, of course, historic. But thinking of it as the machine that puts these films into theaters is notable to me. And it's also notable that the Disney movies have been supercharged to the box office. And the Paramount movies did very well. They did very well. They definitely set up the future of this universe. But Captain America,

the first Avenger, in a way, feels a little bit small as a movie relative to this. And I feel like it's because the way that all of this stuff was arranged, it's all very individuated. You know, the idea of everything fitting together perfectly doesn't really arrive until we get the first Avengers movie. Does that make sense? It does. And I think it was remarkable watching it again. There's the kind of the lack of characters that would make good stuffed animals or, you know, licensing stuff or the even we'll talk more about the Tesseract, the glowing cube. I got it right. I got the name right. But which is definitely a plot point in this movie, but it's like it's far subtler than it is in any other of the like phase two or phase three movies.

They aren't just, you know, hitting you over the head with how this fits into the larger piece. It really is kind of a standalone war movie that's like a little hokey, but for grownups and mostly for grownups, maybe for teenagers and grownups. And I think, you know, that's what appeals to me about it. I think that's also why it's probably one of the lowest box office of all the MCU movies, right? Yeah, I think you're right. And it's notable what you say about something like the Tesseract, which is of course ridiculous. The Tesseract is this historical Marvel object that is also known as the Cosmic Cube. And we learn in Infinity War that it is the Space Stone, which is one of the Infinity Gems that Thanos puts into the gauntlet. Are you following me? You still with me here, Amanda? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the gauntlet is like the glove?

It's the glove, yes. Okay, just say the glove. Well, they call it the gauntlet. I don't know what to tell you. Nevertheless, it's just one of those things that is just a stupid MacGuffin. And I want to talk about the idea of the MacGuffin

and the way that they introduce that sort of thing into this movie. But the word Tesseract is uttered probably 50 times more frequently in The Avengers, a Disney film that is invested in creating merchandising in a film that is invested in creating merchandising in a way that a Paramount movie just isn't, you know, which is not to say

that like kids do not dress up like Captain America in the Halloween immediately after the release of the first Avengers or excuse me, the first Avenger. But it just feels like we're working in a different in a different time under a different corporate empire. Yes. For lack of a better word. So let me just ask you to start. Okay.

This is so funny that I'm being asked questions on a podcast about this. But I did pick this movie, and I have seen it, and I have thoughts about it. You did, and you will help me understand it. Okay. Because you, one, always ask questions that are born of logic. Thank you. And two, your occasional contempt for things helps me understand how to explicate them. And so this is why it's a useful first entry in this conversation.

Why do you think this movie is important to Marvel? I have two answers. Okay. So one is the obvious one where it's literally called Captain America, the first Avenger. So it's just doing the advertising for the Avengers, which comes up is the next movie. Very sad. And, you know, he's the, I believe he's the third, I guess we have to count the Hulk in this, right?

We do have to count the Hulk. The Hulk is technically in the MCU. That was a movie made by Louis Leterrier and Edward Norton that is now largely ignored. Edward Norton was recast as Mark Ruffalo. None of the things that happened there really feel like canon anymore. But primarily what we think of is Iron Man, Iron Man 2, and then captain america the first avenger though hulk yes does qualify right okay so it's like four officially but really it's like three avengers make a team

you know otherwise it's just like two guys yeah we're gonna you know a duo they're a team now right so they're a team so you need this character so i guess that is like the franchise building and the the phase MCU building. I think this movie, and I alluded to this already, is also important to Marvel because it teaches them a lot of lessons of things not to do. They abandoned the period piece. They abandoned love stories more or less. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah. And they lean into,

obviously, the mythology that connects all of the various movies. They lean into the comic space lore. It becomes a little less earthbound, for lack of a better word. And I wonder how much of that has to do with maybe this semi-muted reception to this. I think

everyone thought that this was good and it made as much money as it needed to, but it's certainly not looked back on as some great success or a box office banger. Yeah. While it's very important in terms of the connective tissue of telling the story, it's highly contained because it happens 70 years before the bulk of the action that happens in this long story that they're trying to tell is happening. And also it's very old fashioned. It's purposefully old fashioned. It is very clearly made by the guy who made the Rocketeer. It feels like the Rocketeer in a lot of ways. If you look at the star of the Rocketeer, the two stars of the Rocketeer side by side with Chris Evans and Hayley Atwell, they kind of look alike. You know, there is clearly a kind of old school, first half of the 20th century vision of heroism

that Joe Johnson is drawn to that he's kind of repeating. And it's a learned behavior from somebody like George Lucas making Indiana Jones. You know what I mean? This is just, it is not the stuff of Black Panther. You know, it is not the stuff of Thor Ragnarok. There's nothing like woolly and weird or exciting or global about what he's doing. This is an American story, literally. And I'm kind of interested in how you feel about that. Because what America was in 2011 is quite different from what America is in 2019. Yeah. I would give him a little credit.

I think he's interrogating it slightly. I don't think that you can watch the segments of Captain America going on the promo tour without thinking about the concept of propaganda and what American patriotism means versus how it is expressed in the movies. I thought that was actually interesting. I was like, oh, this is a little more nuanced. And what does it mean to be Captain America? And what are you, you know, a captain of? Obviously, at the end of the day, like he's the earnest one and you're fighting to you don't want to kill anyone. There's that line about I don't want to kill anyone. I just don't like bullies. He shoots so many people in this movie, though.

Right. I mean, but I just also like in 2018, can any American, you know, say that earnestly? I don't know. You wake up wanting to kill you have the the blood thirst no i don't like bullies part it's sort of an interesting um i think it does play a little differently i feel i i don't know i think that anyone who's paying attention has maybe always had a slightly more um skeptical view of america's role as a peacekeeper. But anyway, I think this movie is at least thinking about that slightly before pivoting to the real hokey conclusions. I think it's a little

bit in contrast, though, with what the goals of a superhero movie for 14-year-olds is. Absolutely. And it's notable to me as I was re-watching it that there's a lot of it that I just found very dull because it's just by the numbers action. It's just it's montagey. It's a lot of Captain America, not even, you know, throwing his shield and being a fearless hero, but just him with a bunch of guys shooting black suited, I guess, like Nazi turncoats. I mean, that whole there's a lot of like literal Star Wars set pieces just put in this movie, which, you know, again, speaking of George Lucas, but that's not a coincidence. But I like there was one scene in the middle with if I, Amanda Dobbins, can identify like this is when they sneak onto the Death Star and are like fighting the stormtroopers to try to get the thing, then it's a really direct copy. Totally. I mean, it is very bound by a lot of homage.

You know, this movie was released two years after Inglourious Bastards. Inglourious Bastards, you know, kind of reinvents what it's like to kick Nazis' asses in a movie. And Captain America doesn't even attempt to do that. What it does is it leans on the Hydra part of the storyline, which they get into much more significantly in the future Captain America movies, which is literally like when like a band breaks up, but then two guys from the band go off and like start a new band. And then they like leave the third guy behind. Like Hitler is the third guy. And like Hydra is the new band that goes on to start new stuff. Like it's very confusing about what they're trying to say. It that Captain America is fighting. Because when Captain America was created in 1941, he was created to battle Hitler.

Hitler, one of the co-creators of Captain America, Joe Simon, very famously said that he sought a villain. He was trying to figure out who the villain should be for Captain America, who should be the arch nemesis, because that's so vital to making a comic book story. And he was just like, it's just right in front of our face. It's like, Adolf Hitler's right there for us. Shortly thereafter, he comes up with a red skull and he tells this interesting story about how he's like, would go to this diner every day for lunch. And then inevitably at the end of the lunch, he would order an ice cream sundae. And he was looking at the ice cream sundae one day and there is chocolate syrup dripping down the ice cream. And he was like, we're going to create some sort of creature. It's going to have like tentacles,

like dripping chocolate sundae. And that gonna be the villain that captain america needs to fight and then he was like then he looked at the cherry and he was like it's not tentacles it's a guy with a red head that's what i need to do and that's how he created red skull so that tells me like two things one comic books in general are just so stupid i mean i was like that i that's a parody of me thinking how people come up with comic book things but anyway and also i want an ice cream sundae but continue that's exactly what i was gonna that's the second thing is that comic books are visceral they are about like a kind of appetite they are like whatever is close to you that you can consume there's something like easy about them and light and you kind of feel that a

little bad about them but also you had a great experience with them and I'm probably overworking the metaphor a little bit but it's just so interesting that you know Captain America the first Avenger kind of goes out of its way to create this entire other mythology at the same time that World War II is happening right and that World War II is in the movie. And the thing is, they talk a lot about how the Red Skull is connected to the Nazis and Hitler. Every single person, like, from Haley Atwell all down, just keeps explaining what Hydra is. It's like Nazi scientific command or whatever. They really want you to know that it's connected to Hitler and the Nazis because those stakes are enough, guys. That's like, that's a pretty time-honored movie and real-life villain.

Yes, I would agree. But instead, they seem to need to add on this other thing. I don't really, I don't understand why Hitler couldn't have been enough in this movie.

I mean, I do, because they need to connect it to the other movies, but... And that is primarily why, I think. And that's kind of a notable thing for us to underline about how they tell these stories. Because in the movie,

when they're talking about Johann Schmidt, they note that that he like hitler has an interest in the occult and mythology like they're going out of their way to say that red skull that red skull is hitler to the nth degree right they have taken these ideas that we know about him and the things he's interested in and they've supersized them and made him like literally a super soldier who's gone mad and that already is what hitler is you know mean? He doesn't have the super strength, but he is already evil enough. And so it does kind of underscore like why we have comic books.

You know, something like Red Skull is meant to appeal to a child. And so it's funny to be watching a movie like this and taking it quite seriously as I rewatched it and being like, that's just Hugo weaving in a lot of latex. It's a bit absurd. I mean, I agree.

And I think for me, the reason that I like this movie is because you can just watch it with Captain America wanting to be a soldier in World War II and going to fight Nazis. And then it's just like a war drama. And like basically if you just look at your phone anytime the Red Skull is on screen, there are still stakes and drama and it ties together and can still explore heroism and American identity and whatnot. And then at the end there's like a singer and he's in the present day. Like you actually don't need the extra comic book stuff, which again is why it's probably a failure as a Marvel movie and interesting to me. Lest you forget, the Red Skull reappears in the Marvel story in Infinity War when Thanos and Gamora are traveling in an effort to get the second to last stone. And they encounter him in that sort of nether realm, that other planet. Do you remember this? When she dies?

When she dies. By the time they were in that other planet, I just was honestly, I think I took a nap because it just looked like purple swirls on screen for a while. I was like, this isn't real and she's going to die. And just let me know. That is what happened. But notably, the actor who played Red Skull in that moment was not Hugo Heaving. It was just some other guy.

Okay, well. Anyhow, that's the last we see of Red Skull aside from this movie, which is notable. I did want to talk to you about basically the entire setup of the film, which I think is some of the best parts of it. When we meet Steve Rogers, he is a weakling and the wonders of movie magic have made Chris Evans, who is quite buff, appear to be a five foot five, 130 pound shrimp. It's like a little Benjamin Button scenario. Yes, it is a Benjamin Button. And this is after Benjamin Button, I think. Yeah, I think so. And so what do you think of the

technology and how that holds up in terms of making it credible? Because as you said, you could look away from Red Skull and feel like this is a real movie. But then also, it's definitely a movie about a guy who goes into a machine and becomes big. So for me, it wasn't actually the little Steve Rogers that was the problem. I mean, it's kind of funny looking and he's definitely pretty scrawny, but there is something stylized and old time movie to a degree so in that sense the effects don't bug me as much I literally laughed out loud when they opened their doors and it's just like giant buff Chris Evans I was like that is ridiculous can you explain to me something about this it's definitely one of the most famous scenes in the movie they use that scene in the trailer to get people excited about it which I find interesting for a movie trying to appeal to young boys um why is he greased up with some kind of canola oil when he exits the machine

i mean what's the thinking maybe it's supposed to be hot in there so he's sweaty i don't know but his face is perfect and his hair is quaffed yeah and he's covered in grease that shot is for people like me and i don't know if it totally works because it's so ridiculous and i kind of think that he must be in that moment when they first open this he looks like five times larger than he looks for the rest of the movie it must be enhanced he looks crazy it's like there are just giant water balloons throughout his whole body yeah there's a pectoral situation that is awfully pronounced it's like it's it's a little alarming like i know it's supposed to be impressive um and possibly appealing but i think i would be scared if i saw that you've gotten so much more engaged in the last couple of minutes of this podcast it's amazing

to me i wonder how that happened um in general did you feel like the setup was effective because there's a lot of callbacks throughout the movie. And this is something Marvel does all the time where it's like, you know, he gets beat up and he has a couple of lines about how I can do this all day. And then he comes back later in the film and he gets hit by Red Skull and he's like, I can do this all day. You know, there's a lot of synchronicity there. And there's also a lot of stuff with finding the right partner. They use that a lot in his relationship with Agent Carter, which is, again, that's the stuff of rom-coms and especially kind of old studio rom-coms. So, like, I thought it was charming. I mean, I wasn't, like, laughing out loud, but it works as continuity and it's kind of sweet. It is.

Old-fashioned is the right word for it. That's yours. But... Do you have, as a sort of the overlordess, I don't know if that's a word, as the overlordess of rom-coms. Yeah. Do you have a classic old school rom-com that you like a lot? I love The Lady Eve. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. And It Happened One Night, obviously, is fantastic.

His Girl Friday is extremely important. So it's interesting that you know what that one. The movie that this movie reminds me of quite a lot, especially in that interplay between Agent Carter and Captain America is I Was a Male War Bride. I don't know if you've ever seen that one. I don't think I have. It's a Howard Hawks movie. It's Cary Grant and Ann Sheridan.

It's about a French army officer who has to pass as a war bride in order to go back to the United States with the Women's Army Corps. And it's a screwball comedy. And I think the movie is kind of working best

when you've got in this very classic sort of Preston Sturges, Howard Hawks mode. You've got the big, dumb, goofy lead who's kind of smart, but also kind of a doof and debonair, but also silly. And then you've got the smarter and more capable, but also somewhat stymied because she's a woman, female lead. And then you've got the craggy old guy who's kind of in charge of everything and is frustrated by everybody but also he's like ultimately he's going to help them work it all out so you've got that classic triangle and i think that that is like the bet by far the best part of this movie yes absolutely i would be remiss if we didn't mention wonder woman at this point which just flips that around but i think works and his his listeners of this podcast know is one

of my favorite movies much to the chagrin of other people. But had you considered how much it ripped off Captain America, the first Avenger? No, I do think a lot about how it makes things work that Captain America couldn't pull off in part because it has the gender flip. Right. So the Wonder Woman character gets to be both. She's like the clueless and slapstick but is also kind of more capable and smarter it it doesn't have like the problematic woman sidekick thing that poor Agent Carter does just because it's not really fleshed out the way that it should be let me be honest about Hayley Atwell yeah I find her incredibly appealing

like unnervingly so I I basically have called her my wife, Haley Atwell, on several other podcasts. That was around the time of Howard's End, which is, that's still one of the single best performances on a show that I've seen in any given time. She's wonderful. She's a great actress. And it's not surprising that she got her own spinoff TV series, though I would argue that giving her a spinoff TV series was a mistake. And it's funny that we're in this moment now where we're, you know, litigating Captain Marvel and talking about how and when these women should be the stars of these movies. And obviously, Wonder Woman sets a tone, but Agent Carter is literally the most important woman in the MCU at this point. You know, she's the person who has probably had the most well-written role.

The best actress is performing as her. I mean, no offense to Natalie Portman, who's really air mailing it in in Thor. And, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow kind of does stuff in Iron Man, but not really. Agent Carter is obviously significant enough that they decided to give her her own TV show. The TV show was not a success, but it's interesting that they tried to keep that narrative and that story alive. I think largely on the fact that she's so winning in the part. I would guess so. I think also it's that classic thing of their romance doesn't end well. I guess we can. I don't know why I'm trying not to spoil this movie.

Everyone's seen this movie. It's eight years old. But, you know, it's a tragedy at the end. And there's that last line where he's just like, I had a date, which is, oh, it's really sad. And I think that's right for the movie. But again, it doesn't work for any of the continuity and the kind of the mode of the MCU is making the most hay and not the best hay. And so but you also are so invested in it because it doesn't work out well that I understand the impulse being like, well, people seem to like her. And they didn't get

a happy ending in this one so maybe we'll give her another TV show. It's kind of like misdirected fan service. It is. And I think that the reason that that show ultimately

did not live, I think, beyond two seasons is because it's not about superheroes. You know? And I think if that show had just come out and was not connected

to the MCU, there was a new ABC drama, one-hour drama, period piece, starring Hayley Atwell. Oh my God, please do it. She's an incredibly smart not connected to the MCU. There was a new ABC drama, one hour drama, period piece starring Hayley Atwell. Oh my God, please do it. She's an incredibly smart and vivacious young agent in MI6 and she's entered America and she's solving crimes during World War II. What a cool show. I would lose my mind. Please make this show. Right. Great show. So after this podcast,

you and I will write the pilot for that show. But before that, we will finish this conversation and say that that would have been a good idea for a show. But inevitably when a show is called Marvel's Agent Carter or whatever. Yeah, I've never seen an episode of it, which says all that you need to know about it. That's it. And every time people turn that show on,

they're like, when's Thor going to come on screen? He is pretty hot. Where's Iron Man? Well, that's not why. They're asking that because they want to see superheroes. And we have created this cultural consciousness in which if you make a superhero thing that you have to have superheroes and and this i think ultimately is why we never did get the black widow movie around this time

because i think the thing that's held against the black widow who is also notably a spy and kind of a war hero ultimately before being a war criminal. She doesn't really have superpowers. She's just been brainwashed and is really well trained. And so I don't think that the MCU is comfortable giving a movie to a character who couldn't do

extraordinary things. And I don't know, it's kind of an interesting thing that the female characters are often positioned in this series as not having the strongest powers until Captain Marvel. Can I ask you a follow-up question?

Yes, you can. So, the Black Widow, that's Scarlett Johansson. It is. So, in the Avengers movies that I've been watching, she's brainwashed? Well, this is a longer conversation. I know, but you opened it and now I got to know about this. The Black Widow origin is that she has been brainwashed and trained as an assassin from a very young age by the russian government and ultimately she has sort of snapped out of it and becomes an american

citizen and begins to fight for the avengers so it's like captain marvel but in some respects yes although none of the alien stuff it's all it's it's like it's like the first avenger was like trained by um the air force but and then but then she's taken over by the aliens and then she turns against them right correct so she was okay so it's almost like they're saying that women are easily manipulated in these marvel movies and isn't that terrible yeah okay however venom also shows us how easily it is to manipulate men so you know i think all superhero movies are about being easily manipulated, right? Watching them is, yes. No, also, who are the superheroes?

This was an interesting thing about watching this movie, actually. Who are the superheroes that are just doing this because they think for the purpose of helping or serving? As opposed to being personally motivated. Because most of them just have daddy issues and are working that out, right? You're making a great point about Steve Rogers in general in the universe. I think there are two characters who fit this mold that you're describing. Steve Rogers more than anybody. He is the goody-goody.

He is the do-gooder. He is the moral compass of the MCU. There is a reason why at the screening of Avengers Infinity War that I went to, when he appeared on screen, I think it's in like Bulgaria or wherever it is that Vision and Scarlet Witch have decamped to, when he appears on screen early in the film, people stood up and started clapping. Now they clapped for Chris Evans because they love Chris Evans, but there's something iconic and emblematic about Captain America and his decency, I think, that people really respond to. There's really only one other character that I can see that kind of fits the mold, and that's Mr. Fantastic Reed Richards in the Fantastic Four, which is a group of superheroes we never

talk about because Fox owns the rights to them. They made three movies about them, and they're all not very good. So we don't think about Reed Richards and kind of what, he's a tortured genius and somewhat like Iron Man, but also he has a kind of common good feeling inside of him. He's a real kind of, he's like a well-meaning dad in some ways. And so he fits the mold here and Spider-Man too, I suppose. Spider-Man seems to be driven by a concept of responsibility. Right. But he didn't opt into it is my understanding. He didn't opt in? No, did he? Into the Avengers? No, into being a superhero. Well, when his uncle Ben was killed, he felt like he needed to ultimately turn his life over to something better. But his powers, his powers.

He was bit by a radioactive spider. Right, right. I mean, like, technically Steve Rogers is like, yes, you can mutate me. That's true. You know, which is sort of unique. He signs up for it. And everyone else is either self-created or accidental. The thing is, it's hard to interrogate what Steve Rogers actually stands for aside from the symbols that he drapes himself in. Is it because he was bullied as a kid that he thinks that all bullies should be banished?

Because if he did, why would he fight for America, which is the longstanding international bully of this civilization? I'm not saying he's perfect. I'm just saying as a contrast to all the other superheroes, it's an interesting character study because everyone else is just like working out their own problems with a lot of money, like destroying large buildings. I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies.

I don't care where they're from. It's a good point. And I think it's one of the reasons why they have worked so hard to surround the Captain America character in these movies with all these interesting figures and these moral dilemmas, because there's nothing burning a hole inside of Steve Rogers. He doesn't have an internal conflict. Iron Man where he is, you know, in the comic books, he's an alcoholic and he really struggles with his conception of power and whether he should be doing good or not with the wealth that he has accumulated in his life. You've been called the Da Vinci of our time. What do you say to that? Absolutely ridiculous. I don't paint. And what do you say to your other nickname, the Merchant of Death? That's not bad. You know, the Hulk obviously is a literal metaphor for the two sides of a personality. Dr. Banner, now might be a really good time for you to get angry.

That's my secret, Captain. I'm always angry. Even Thor is like about the hubris of a godlike figure. That's pride and vanity talking, not leadership. You've forgotten everything I taught you. But a warrior's patience. While you wait and be patient, the nine realms laugh at us. The old ways are done.

You'd stand giving speeches while Asgard falls. You are a vain, greedy, cruel boy. And you are an old man and a fool. All these people have these, like, core problems. And daddy issues. And certainly daddy issues. It's like the theme of every single one of those, except for... Actually, I don't know what's up with the Hulk, but definitely Thor and definitely Iron Man.

And Spider-Man and Ant-Man. All of those characters all have daddy issues. Thanos certainly has a I want to be your daddy issue. You're right to say that. I don't think that Steve Rogers has that. I don't know anything about Steve Rogers' parents, honestly. I know about his friends in Brooklyn, but that's really it. But he doesn't have, there's nothing burning inside of him other than to just do good, which is really boring.

Right, but now he's sad in the Avengers. Now he's sad, right? Which, to go back to the, I feel like he's sad because he's old and doesn't understand the world but also because Hayley Atwell died right? Yeah I think it's a fine combination of both I think you know I wanted to

note how this movie basically begins like Titanic and we've been referencing all these other movies it starts with this

mission to find something in the deep blue sea and that of course we ultimately will learn is Steve Rogers and his shield and everything

because he has crashed a plane at the end of the film but you know at the beginning of Titanic yes I know you know there's that whole sea mission we forget

exactly to find the heart of the ocean that's right yeah with the old lady rose do you think that that was a purposeful thing

or do you think that there's just so much weight of influence and Joe Johnston can't help but not have an original thought I don't think that they're intentionally referencing Titanic. I mean, because if they were, then I would have known that and more of my friends would have seen Captain America and been like, yo, this is a great movie because it's like Titanic.

They should have recut the trailer so that it had kind of a Titanic-esque theme. They also should have had Celine Dion record a song for this film. Do you think that would have been effective? Sure, why not? What do you make of Sebastian Stan? Because Sebastian Stan plays Bucky Barnes, and he was potentially going to be Steve Rogers. He went up for the part and didn't get it.

But he becomes what is ultimately this very important character in this story. Yeah, so he's Bucky. He's Bucky. So a lot of people love Bucky, right. Yes. And I know he's really important. I I can never remember War. He's still around. And there is some speculation that because Sebastian Stan is on like an 11 movie contract and Chris Evans is on an 8 movie contract, that Sebastian Stan will either pick up the mantle of Captain America at the end of Endgame or that he will just become the Winter Soldier figure and maybe get his own films or whatever. Before we even explore whether you care about that idea or not, one thing that's weird about Captain America colon the Winter Soldier is that's just the name of two characters. So that would be like Spider-Man colon Thor.

Yeah. Isn't that weird to you? It's less weird to me than it is to you. I think also, you know, I, as someone who doesn't know what the Winter Soldier is until I see the movie and then frankly doesn't really retain a lot of it, you know, maybe it indicates like a, what is the Winter Soldier?

Who is the Winter Soldier? What does that mean to us? Very important question. Okay. Yeah. There we go. The Winter Soldier of our discontent. Yeah.

Wouldn't you say? Yes. Did you watch Gossip Girl? Of course. So you must have some relationship to Sebastian Stan yeah but again he's not I think he seems like a very nice person um he's pretty good in I, Tonya yes he is and that's a very upsetting movie and he's pretty good in it but I wouldn't say that he has kind of the movie star charisma that jumps out to me from, say, Chris Evans or Tommy Lee Jones or Hayley Atwell.

I mean, it's like a really deep bench here. And so he's not he's he has a lot to overcome. But and I do think also you need for Captain America, at least you need someone who can do the movie idol thing. And the 40s aspect of it especially in this movie. And Sebastian Stan is like a little lower key. I will say, I think particularly from some women in the generation right below you and I. Yeah. And some men as well.

He falls into the like, Sebastian Stan, run me over with a Mack truck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then drag my entrails over a cliff forever because I love you. You know, he's in that category. That seems like things that could definitely happen in a movie about the Winter Soldier. So good luck to everyone. What do you think about the idea of trying to make a love story work in a Marvel movie? Let's do it.

Oh, my God. Remember when we were talking about Batman and Wonder Woman and whether they ever had sex? I don't understand why this is so hard. Come on. It can, like, they're real stakes. We made entire genres of movie around them. And obviously, I don't know. Do you think it's because comic books are consumed largely by a bunch of virgins?

No, that wasn't going to say virgins. That was you. For the record, that was you. I was going to say that I guess teen boys don't really care about that as much. You'd be surprised. I mean... I think if you put Hayley Antwell in front of a teen boy, he'd think about love. I guess so, except this movie does it pretty effectively. And it's definitely stayed with me after 20-something movies.

And it's clearly enough to animate Captain America and make him really sad for a while. So it works as a motivation. And in a whole suite of films that is really starving for motivations because everyone is just like, it's either daddy issues or I have a lot of money and I don't know what to do with it. Or both. Or give me the Tesseract. Right. It's a pretty relatable emotion. I don't really understand why it's that hard. I don't understand why none of them are sleeping with each other. Just from a numbers perspective in the Avengers,

you have to assume. Has anyone slept with anyone else in the Avengers? But not, not Elizabeth Olsen and the, and Paul Bettany. I know that they fell in love. I don't know if Vision can fuck. That's something we should probably interrogate when we get to Endgame. Okay. But I hear Bobby snickering. The major Avengers, have any of them had sex? That we know of.

Have Thor and Hulk made out? Yes. I don't think so. There's obviously a lot of allusions to the fact that between bruce banner yeah and uh black widow there's a lot of sexual tension you know when they first encountered one another in the beginning of infinity war there was a kind of like hey bruce hey nat you know kind of the whispery like so mark ruffalo and Scarlett Johansson? Yes. I like both of those people. And I find them both very attractive.

But like that is, who is making these pairings? Like that's the worst one. I don't care about that. So ship somebody. Who do you want to see get together? Well, you know, I really do feel like Chris Pratt and Chris Hemsworth had amazing chemistry in Infinity War. They're the ones that are bantering on the plane, right? Yes, they are.

I know that Chris Pratt just lost a significant other, but I didn't really care about her, to be totally honest. And that was a really boring part of the movie. So maybe they could explore some tensions. Let's see. Who else? I mean, Cap cap's gotta find someone else it doesn't seem like scarlett johansson would be right for him who is who else is available not captain marvel well there's some there's some some suspicion that thor and captain marvel will have something going on you know that's the kind of the cap note on the most recent Endgame trailer is Thor kind of turning,

having a little bit of a stare down with Captain Marvel and then saying like, I like this one. You don't see it. Two blondies? Yeah, it just seems a little matchy-matchy.

I'm looking for some opposition, you know? Let's go back to the first Avenger for a second. I need you to ruminate on this. You've got a whole month to think about your pairings. In fact, you may have just assigned yourself an amazing piece on TheRinger.com about the number one possible pairing.

It's just like sex is a normal part of life for humans and superheroes. It's been 20 movies. Just do it already. So someone who tries to do it in the first Avenger is Natalie Dormer. Oh, yeah. There is a fun cameo, a pre-Marjorie in Game Avenger is Natalie Dormer. There is a fun cameo, a pre-Marjorie in Game of Thrones, Natalie Dormer,

who shows up kind of in the classic hussy, trying to cut between the man and the woman who are fated to be together but have not quite gotten together yet segment. I got a kick out of Natalie Dormer. She's kind of throwing 100 in this movie. She's in about two scenes.

No, she's in it for about 30 seconds. But I think she's also seen like on Tommy Lee Jones's hip at one point. Just kind of standing there being like, yes, sir.

I mean, maybe, but like the actual work that she has to do is if it's 30 seconds, I would be surprised. It's good work, though. Yeah. Yeah.

She's she's got it. She has she has the chemistry. She has the chemistry. So that is like kind of a sexualized moment in the movie, though. You, yeah, she's got it. She has the chemistry. She has the chemistry. So that is like kind of a sexualized moment in the movie, though. You know, we see that Steve Rogers is virile. Yeah, I mean, this is a weird one to be arguing for just have sex because this is a very chaste version. You know, it is like a very 40s studio code version of it. But there is suggestion.

Sure. Yeah. So I would argue that these movies don't have sex scenes because they do have sex scenes in their action scenes that all of the phallic impulse is going into all of the fighting and the guns okay well that's not a very healthy understanding of sex i'm not saying that it is but i didn't make this film i'm just saying i think that if you think about the libidinal intentionality of the creators of comic book movies. Maybe that's not good for anyone.

And maybe we should reimagine some of it. I don't disagree with you. Okay. I was really struck, as I said earlier, watching this movie by just how many scenes there are of just guys being like, yeah, I'm throwing my shield. Certainly fighting, winning the battle is a key aspect of Captain America. Yes. But I couldn't get over how frequently people were just punching each other and shooting guns. And that may seem like such a simplistic way to describe something that happens in a superhero movie for teenagers.

But I think that what has happened is that Marvel has, I think, significantly advanced. And the reason I want to keep having these conversations is because it does show like some real growth. There's definitely some stupid punching at the end of Black Panther, but what Black Panther is trying to understand and say about life and the experience of the world, and even Infinity War, I think kind of has a little bit more to say

about what it means to be a part of a community, what it means to think you know the answers for peace, like things like that. This movie still feels like it's kind of working itself out. It doesn't really know like what ideas it actually has. Does that seem reasonable? I guess so. I think it's more that this movie is like pretty actively engaging with a very old version of what it means to fight and serve and be an American. And, you know, it is updating like very old source text and updating a hero and quite literally taking him from 1943 or whatever to 2011 at the very end. I give it a little credit for at least wrestling with this source text

a bit. I think that there is a bit more nuance. And like, you know, all the questions I was asking you about Captain America's motivations and what it means to serve and to elect to do these sorts of things and how it's different from the other origin stories. I think that's because I watched the movie and was like, huh, this seems different. So, and I do think it thinks about it,

but it is, it ultimately comes to some old-fashioned conclusions because this is a character from 19 i don't even know when it was invented 1941 1941 and they're updating his circumstance and updating the battles that he's fighting but they don't totally update his point of view. I think that that's right. Let me ask you a moral dilemma of your own. Okay. You're at the doctor one day and your doctor walks out, pulls the curtain and in walks Dr. Erskine, an aged and German Stanley Tucci. And he says, Amanda, I know you've been unwell. I know you've

had some allergies. You've been struggling with some things. What I have here in this little test tube is a serum that will make you super Amanda. And if you take it, you will become very powerful and you will have a 4X metabolism and you will be able to punch and break things. And I'll never get drunk again. You'll never be drunk again. That's a very good point. Would you take the serum from Dr. Erskine? No, but I don't have like a delusional masculine goal of being like four times stronger and

punching people all the time and being gigantic. That's not my damage. What is, you know, like if the serum fixes my damages, which we don't need to go into on this podcast, like and also at the end of the day, it makes me like a magically great person who's contributing to society in positive ways. Sure. and thoughtful and modern rendition of a female superhero, what you need to do is Amanda has to go home, write down all the things about herself that she wants a serum to fix, and then create that superhero, and then you'll get that.

I would probably take this serum. I do like to drink, and I do like the effects of drinking on me. Yeah. And it's notable that the scene in which Steve Rogers is discovered sitting alone drinking, trying to get

drunk because he's lamenting the pain of losing Bucky Barnes who dies in this film Dr. Erskine said that this serum wouldn't just affect my muscles it would affect my cells create a protective system of regeneration and healing which which means I can't get drunk. Did you know that? Your metabolism burns four times faster than the average person. He thought it could be one of the side effects. And there's a kind of poetic quagmire in that i would miss that yeah everything else sounds good though all that canola oil i don't personally need that i can admire it from afar um what do you think of the the captain america costume because it is such an iconic piece of

material it is such a it is such a i'm sure you were deeply aware of it even knowing nothing about captain america by the time you're like 10 or 11 right because it's just something that you see that you just recognize out in the world was i i don't know i would have thought so it's it's maybe that's a teen boy thing but the stars and the stripes and that the cowl and the wings on the on the forehead you know on, on the sides of the temples is such a classic look. I think I must have just confused it for like actual American iconography from the 40s. Like I'm sure that I had seen it before, but to me it just looks of like I just think that's how people like World War II soldiers dressed. I don't know.

Or pilots, which maybe says a lot about the history lessons that I got as a child and also how pervasive these images are. You didn't have an older brother either. I suspect if you had an older brother. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I certainly recognize it and it's certainly, it just feels embedded in history for lack of a better word. And I don't know whether that's just literally. Yeah. I don't know whether that's just because... Yeah, I don't know if that's because I've seen 20 of these movies or because I fell asleep in history class or both. Because I don't know how to organize my time, I watched a whole featurette documentary on the Captain America costume last night.

And it was notable that when they were making this costume, which is a little bit different from the one that you see in the comic books over the years, that their influences were like work wear. I wasn't like camping wear. Yeah, I was about to say of all the costumes, like if I had to be one of these people for Halloween, it's the one I would want to wear. Captain America. Yeah. No kidding. I mean, I guess.

Right. I was about to say from like a sociological political statement perspective, I would have to think about that. But just fashion wise. Yeah, that's the best one. I mean, I'm not going to like the Wonder Woman. You know, we need some more more costume there. So I'm not going to wear that. And just more like cloth.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, she looks great, but not for me. And then beyond it. I don't. The Batman suit seems really heavy. Let's stick to the MCU. I know.

I know that that's a different one. This is a good game. I'm going to play this on all these episodes. Okay. The Iron Man suit just seems, I mean, could it fly? If I could, for Halloween, wear an Iron Man costume that actually flew, then I would pick that one. I don't think we've created that technology in our society. So I don't think that's on the board.

But then that just seems like really restrictive and heavy and not fun. You know how I know I'm a basic bro? How? Because I think my answer to this is Deadpool. There's something very sleek about what's going on with Deadpool. Yeah. And now that Disney has purchased Fox, I can answer Deadpool. Your rules changed so quickly.

They updated with the contracts, huh? This was all my idea of this podcast, so I can just do it every now and then. I guess I would go with Captain America and then some sort of sign that this is a fashion endorsement only. Can I make a suggestion for you? Yeah. Rocket Raccoon, perhaps? No. Absolutely not.

Okay. So this movie has one of the first stingers that is important. I thought the ending of this movie in particular, and I want to talk about it a little bit with you, was interesting. One, the sort of dramatic sacrifice that Steve Rogers makes. Yeah. Let's listen to that scene at the end there, the conversation between Steve and Peggy.

You're going to need a rain check on that dance. Alright. A week next Saturday at the Stork Club. You got it. Eight o'clock on the dock. Don't you dare be late. Understood? You know, I still don't know how to dance. I'll show you how. Just be there.

We'll have the band play something slow. I'd hate to step on your... Steve? Steve? Steve? So that's actually very effective. Yes. And well done. And the love story, the sort of misbegotten love story that we're talking about that drives this movie,

the whole story is oriented around it in this final scene, this final sacrifice. Also not on the last part of Titanic, if you want to bring it home. That's a great point. Of just talking through a sad, tragic death. Yeah. a great point just of talking through a sad tragic death yeah yeah and in much the same way I think is illogical because I think there's a way in which Rose could have saved Jack and she was selfish yeah and I think Peggy Carter could have found a landing spot for our boy and he should have been fine but it's not her fault in this case because he is really really just hero balling he's like it's the only thing that I can do is to go into the water except then he lands in antarctica but like whatever where are they he's like i'm like five

miles out from new york but then he's in antarctica i don't know or maybe it's like the polar caps before they all melted but the northern one it's just like a lake in hudson valley where did he land it's totally inexplicable to me um but then steve rogers isn't dead of course he's been thought out of the ice and we have this great setup where he's asleep and he wakes up and he's in a room

and he's listening to a Dodgers game on the radio and he's confused and he's trying to figure out where he is and how much time has passed

and he's looking around and it's very confusing as a viewer it's one of the genuine it feels like one of the genuinely exciting moments of the movie

how is he alive what's going on and then a woman comes in who looks conspicuously like Hayley Atwell, though not Hayley, almost like Hayley Atwell's daughter. Sort of. Though you just got to realize that 40s hair and 40s makeup is such a specific style that once you just have those like two weird like horn shaped bangs over, you know, that kind

of look like a hair hat and the lipstick just so everyone looks the same. You know, what's a great thing about being a man? Yes. This haircut that I have would have been just fine in 1941. People would have been like, good, you have a good haircut. Can I just say that the most unrealistic thing in this whole movie was how perfectly Hayley Atwell's hair was done, like on location, you know, wherever they are in Italy or whatever. She's just got that full 40s do I'm like you didn't have

time for this a lot of volume I mean it looks fantastic but it just that takes a lot of time so since we're talking about hair that's not really

where I wanted to go here but Chris Evans in this movie is blonde and if you see the future Avengers films you'll notice that Chris Evans is not blonde in these movies

Steve Rogers historically is quite blonde okay he is and similar to Aqu movies. Steve Rogers historically is quite blonde. Okay. He is, and similar to Aquaman, who in the DC comics is blonde. Jason Momoa is not blonde. Yeah. And over time they realized,

I guess to make Chris Evans and Captain America seem a bit more gritty, they had to just give him my hair color. Also, they just are aging him. Like you can be really blonde. But that's not what happens to blonde people. Yeah, in your youth you can be very blonde and then you

lose it over time and then it goes to gray no for a lot of people it turns hay color yeah or it gets like a darker a brown i mean it's never like it's never like my color brown but it does that's actually true and like by the way most blonde women that you know over the age of 30 are blonde because they've dyed their hair blonde which they look great and they should do that. What? Yeah. People dye their hair? I'm just saying that's actually a fairly natural and normal aging process for blonde people. Okay. However, this blonde person in particular has taken a super serum that makes him a deathless soldier. So I'm not sure if we're working with the same kind of physics here. I'm just saying that they want, Chris Evans was like like actually I have brown hair guys

and they're like okay you're the boss I guess he's not out in the sun very much as an Avenger they're just like always hiding in bunkers being like

yeah well there you go he's got the cowl on right there you go so you're saying because he has no vitamin D that he has brown hair well the sun lightens your hair do you have hair?

do you like ever think about it? I don't go in the sun which is notable nevertheless back to the end of this movie, this interesting scene where it's quickly revealed that in fact it is not 1941, that Cap is listening to a ball game

that he actually attended. And he bursts through the wall and he races out into the street and he is eluding what appears to be S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. And he runs into Times Square and he finds himself in modern day 2011. The thing that this reminded me of was the recent Mission Impossible movie

with the whole setup. Oh yeah. With Wolf Blitzer. There was something about it sort of like the unreality of the scene and like creating something that feels real to you but it being not real. I thought it was just really well done

and like an exciting moment. It's really effective. I had also forgotten, this is actually, it's before the credits or it was at least when i watched it which is not normally the case now you have to sit through the credits but it is so vital to the scene to the movie and the arc of the movie and his kind of final tragedy of well of being in a time that is not his own and he's a man at a time right and

also you know missing the date with haley h Atwell, which it's a great last line. It's like, it's very sad. You know, there is something interesting about the end of the movie too, which is that when you get to the end and you realize that Captain America is going to exist in modern day and then we're going to get an Avengers movie.

And I think it actually says at the end, end, end of the credits, Captain America will return in the Avengers next summer. That the movie was kind of a waste of time and that there is an inevitable feeling of this felt like a little bit of a waste of time to me. It reminded me a little bit of watching Stranger Things, which is a show that I like.

But if I try to keep track and stay focused on the mythology of the story they're trying to tell, I get really annoyed because they just get to the end of an episode and something happens in the final five minutes. And then you just got to be like, tune in again now for the next episode. And the MCU, you know, is doing this thing that has never really been done before, which is serializing a series of movies over the span of what is now 11 years. And we'll probably be some north of 20 years, given the way that they've constructed everything. And they make you feel excited by what you've just seen. And then they immediately make you go, I need the next one now. And then they make you wait three months or six months or a excited by what you've just seen, and then they immediately make you go, I need the next one now, and then they make you wait three months or six months or a year.

And we've just come to accept that. We've just come to understand that this is what movies are now. I don't want to take it for granted. I don't think it's a good thing necessarily, though I'm not against it. It's just fascinating that, you know, I can easily just drop the Avengers DVD into my DVD player now and just turn it on and watch it if I want to.

But the feeder tube that we're on is always feeding us at all times. Did you have any reflection on that when you saw that moment of like just him racing on Times Square and confronting Nick Fury? Well, I think it's interesting. talk about and you know chris ryan talks a lot about that like origin story fatigue and this idea that we like don't need another origin story for superheroes though it's so fascinating for me because as someone who doesn't read comics and likes character stories it's definitely always the origin story that is interesting because how else are you supposed to learn about someone or their motivations or and why would you want to know what happens next unless you understand this person? But what you just said points out to me something very obvious, which is that character development

and spending the time on the person alone, it isn't necessary for the larger plot machine. It isn't for the larger thing that they're putting together. And it could be seen as wasted time, even though for me, it's what makes them interesting. And I do also feel like, you know, you mentioned everyone who stood up applauding when like Captain America shows up on screen and everyone is very concerned about who's going to die and who's going to live. And that has something to do with investment and them as characters and not as like otherwise. Why? Why would you care about who lives and who dies? It's just kind of like what happens at the end.

I mean, the other thing is also we kind of know what happens at the end. Right. So character does matter for watching these movies. You've got two tracks with these movies. You've got people that really care about the historical nature of this stuff and know the characters and know where certain stories go and know, you know, what the real Infinity War comic book storyline is like. And then you've got all these people who are like, oh, I'm familiar with Captain America as a cultural phenomenon, but I never read comic books. I don't care. Like my son my son likes that or you know that's something my girlfriend and i go do on a friday night or what you know they don't they're just viewing it as a modern

entertainment divorced entirely from the the historicity of it and that's weird that's just really weird that um it's never about what these movies are about. It's always about what's next. Yeah. And it's a unique, you know, I think that there are certainly some examples of it in literature. You know, I feel like Sherlock Holmes is a little bit like this sometimes where you're like, he's always going to solve it at the end and then you want to go forward. You want to understand a little bit more about what's going on with him and Watson.

But for the most part, you're on this kind of endless journey for him to kind of defeat Moriarty and get to the end of whatever quest he's on. But never at this length and never at this volume and never at this like maximal promotion. And it made me feel a little hollow, if I'm being honest. As much as I like these movies and as interested as I am in kind of unpacking this stuff, I was kind of bummed out. And I did not expect to get there in the first episode of this show. Wow. I had a nice time watching this movie. That's what's so weird about it.

Would you say that Red Skull was your favorite part? Yeah, definitely. It's so cool when you just add in extra stakes with weird masks for no reason. What other reflections do you have on Captain America the First Avenger? Do you care about the score of movies like this? I'm not sure I often notice

them, which is not a slight to the score. It's just kind of I see it as part of the machine. It just seems like it sounds like movie music that happens while like spaceships are running or whatever. I noticed this one just because it felt slightly of a different time in a good way. I thought that they did a very nice job visually and in terms of the music and the costumes and the dialogue of evoking the 40s while sort of playing with that idea of time now and then.

So in that sense, I thought it was notable, but I wouldn't say I couldn't sing it for you. I couldn't sing it either. It's Alan Silvestri who did it. And he, of course, has worked with Robert Zemeckis for years and years. He did Back to the Future and movies like Cast Away. He's a very successful longtime film composer and probably the most accomplished person who has composed a score for a Marvel movie. And he, like Marcus and McFeely and like Captain America in general, it's just a big part of where these movies went. So he

also did the score for the Avengers and Avengers Infinity War and Avengers Endgame. And he has like, he's, I guess, essential to, you know, this pyramid that they've built of storytelling. And I find it so interesting that Captain America is at the top of that pyramid, you know, that he is the most essential person that they are leading the endgame promotion with his character, that Chris Evans is the biggest star that they've got. I wanted to ask you at the end here a couple things. One, do you think this was a good choice

for Chris Evans for his career to be this guy? Because as you said at the top of the show, he really carries a lot of baggage about being a superhero. He's always talking about it. You know, he's in the news today by being like, it's important that I share my political views. Why would I not do that for fear of losing money?

That's bullshit. Now, of course, I agree with him and I admire that statement, but he is always going out of his way to say stuff like this. Well, he said that in the context of the obligatory Hollywood reporter cover story that he did in order to promote this movie, which is written into his contract. Yes. And I think it's ultimately been a good choice for him. Part of the reason that he's so interesting and that we know that the burden of being a superhero's weight on him is, as you pointed out, he's talked about it a lot. But he's been in this machine for almost a decade now at the kind of, I think he started at 27 or 28. And so from late 20s through late 30s, which is a pretty formative period in your life and also a period when you're trying to figure out who. He publicly whined a bit. I think there was also a huge amount of attention on him. He's the young all-American guy. There's a very famous GQ

profile of him from 2011 written by Edith Zimmerman, which Edith, the writer, participates in this story pretty aggressively. And beyond that, I'll leave it to you to read. You should read it. It's an interesting time capsule. Right. But also, I think really just highlights the fascination in him as the heartthrob and the public face of this in a way that Chris Hemsworth wasn't really famous enough yet. I mean, Chris Evans had been in a lot of movies. Also, Chris Hemsworth was Australian. And Robert Downey Jr. was very famous in a different way. And I think appealed a lot to older audiences, perhaps the parents who were bringing the kids. And obviously also appeals to kids as like the wisecracking cool guy with the machines.

But Chris Evans got all the teeny proper pressure. And that's a lot. He seems to have come out on the other side of it. And he made a lot of weird movie choices. Gifted is like still the most fascinating cover choice. It led to a period of love with the actress Jenny Slate. Yes, that's where he met Jenny Slate, which is also fascinating. But now it seems like he's really famous. Social media has sort of, on the one hand, he is very famous for being on Twitter and being really political. He's performatively liberal. internet boyfriend, but he seems to have, especially on Twitter, found a way to manage the attention and channel it into like a certain online identity. And I think at the same time, just 37-year-old actors, even Captain America, are just not as famous as like Logan Paul or all of the people on the internets. Like in the 10 years since he became Captain America,

there are different types of fame that have sort of overcome him. So he's been supplanted, I think, by Tom Holland in these movies. You know, the current Spider-Man, who is the object of affection of my little sister, you know, that is the person. She loves Chris Evans and she loves the Captain America movies, and she's very interested in him. But Tom Holland is the first person she thinks of. When Tom Holland died in Infinity War, that was the thing that crushed her, that destroyed her. And you're right.

It's been 10 years. He has exited his 20s inside of this franchise, and he has entered that woeful state that I find myself in, that you are approaching. Easy. In which you get nearer to 40. I'm not near to 40.

I didn't say that you were. But I am. Old Man River. What a't say that you were, but I am. Old Man River. What a weird time in any person's life. What a curious moment of reflection about what you've accomplished and what you failed to accomplish. And I think he seems to be a person who is thinking about, I'm sure he's got a great life, a lot of money. He's a very handsome guy. He seems quite charming and smart.

But it's also like, did I really just make a lot of movies like Captain America, the first Avenger when I could have been doing something else? But that's fine because a 40-year-old handsome man in Hollywood can still do so much. He doesn't have the age-taking time that a lot of women do. He could start a whole brand new leading man career throughout his 40s. He has a ton of money he has name recognition which many actors his age do not at this point because it's basically impossible to get name recognition when you're chewed up in this you know 22 movie series event i'm not playing the violin for him i'm not saying pity him i find it to be just an interesting test case because it feels evident that the chris evans version of captain america will not be in the next Marvel movie

after Endgame. That it is very likely that this is the last time that we see him, at least for a while. And then he's going to show up in the stinger of some movie in 2022. And we're like, oh, Chris Evans, what a good guy. He showed up for that stinger. I don't know. It feels like a unique formulation because there's also nobody else in these movies who represent the same kind of Cary Grant style or Harrison Ford style male iconic film actor that he is aspiring to that is in the MCU either. Right. You know, it's Benedict Cumberbatch. It's Robert Downey Jr. who's probably exiting.

It's Tom Holland. It's Mark Ruffalo. Like these guys are not cut glass jaw, you know, perfect pompadour, canola oil chest. You know, they're not like that. Chris Pratt is like a little slovenly and that's kind of part of his appeal in some ways yeah and i find it to be an interesting closing of a chapter on a kind of idea of heroism certainly and also a kind of idea of stardom but i think it'll be interesting to see what he does next because we have talked for so long about how all these superhero movies not just the MCU, but all of them have kind of tied up all of the actors in their 30s.

And all of the would-be movie stars like our Tom Hanks' and our Harrison Ford's are superheroes and they're kind of dwarfed by the mythology and the characters and the larger franchises. And I don't know if that's true. I'm not sure. And it'll be interesting to see what someone like Chris Evans, who has the leg up from 10 years of being as famous as he is, at least. He is famous. He is. And Chadwick Boseman is also probably as famous as Chris Evans.

Yes. I mean, I didn't think very long. And he appeared in basically four movies before Black Panther, all of which were successful, all of which he was very good in. People had tabbed him as one of the next great movie stars. He's a little bit more stoic than Chris Evans, but he's like a Gary Cooper type. And so he's going to go on to do great stuff. What do you think Chris Evans, who do you think his model should be going forward now as he exits the MCU more than likely? Oh, that's a great question. I think he should not just try to be a romance guy or like,

and I don't think. So Matt Damon? I was thinking about Damon. Like, I don't think Chris Evans is weird enough to be a Gosling, you know, because part of the Gosling charm thing is the unpredictability. You don't know when you're going to get funny Ryan and you don't know when you're going to get weird, creepy Ryan. I guess Damon. Yeah, I think a guy like Chris Evans, who is from Massachusetts, he has to kind of look at the departed triangle.

And he has to say, I'm either going to be Mark Wahlberg, I'm either going to be Leo, or I'm either going to be Matt Damon. And I don't know if he's a good enough actor to be Leo. I don't know if he is as versatile as Matt Damon. And I don't know if he's as kind of just like Damon straightforward as Mark Wahlberg. Sean, I've got an idea for you. Okay.

Quadruple Frontier starring Chris Evans. Let's go. I'm ready to do it. Let's go find the bags in South America. What an amazing place to end. Amanda, thank you for spending all this time in the MCU with me. You're so welcome.

Thanks again to Amanda Dobbins for sitting inside of the center of the Marvel Cinematic Universe with me. Next week, I'm going to be back with three episodes on this podcast, which is far too many, but I hope you'll join me. I'll have an interview with Bill Hader. And then in the same episode,

I'll have an interview with the critic turned filmmaker, Kent Jones and the actress Mary Kay Place. They made a wonderful movie called Diane. Then we're going to be back with our MCU series. We're also going to be back with a new episode of The Career Arc with Amanda Dobbins and Rob Harvilla. I'll give you a little hint of who is going to be the star of that career arc. All right, all right, all right. See you then.