The Big Picture - ‘Civil War’ With Alex Garland! Plus: The 10 Most Anticipated Movies Out of CinemaCon.

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to run through the 10 most anticipated movies from this week’s CinemaCon, which Sean attended (1:00). Then, they have a long—and, at times, combative—discussion about Alex Garland’s big-budget A24 release, ‘Civil War’ (44:00), delving into the film’s politics (or lack thereof), point of view, cinematic style, and more. Finally, Sean is joined by Garland to answer questions regarding some of those very things and where he sees this in the arc of his career, as well as discuss whether he will take a step back from filmmaking (1:50:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Alex Garland Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every true football fan knows that the NFL season truly begins after the Super Bowl champion has been crowned. And the Ringer NFL feed will keep you on top of all the news still happening around the league and heading into the 2024-25 season. I'm Shiel Kapadia, and every Monday and Friday, Ben Solak and I deliver sharp takes to debate some of the draft, free agency, training camp, and beyond on Extra Point Ticket. And every Wednesday, we'll have Dual Threat, where Stephen Ruiz and yours truly, Nora Princiati, dive deep into all of the big offseason developments with Ringer favorites Austin Gale and

Lindsey Jones stopping by occasionally to share their expert football analysis. Subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to follow the ringer nfl on instagram tiktok youtube and x at ringer nfl get groceries delivered across the gta from real canadian superstore with pc express shop online for super prices and super savings try it today and get up to 75

dollars in pc optimum points visit super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Civil War. CR, Chris Ryan, is here with us to talk about one of the most anticipated movies of the year.

Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Alex Garland, the writer-director of Civil War. This is Alex's fourth time appearing on the show. Is there a five-time club? Well, Alex Ross-Perry is like in the 11-time club. Um, no. James Gray up there. Technically you? Well, I mean, I think I dabble with Third Chair.

You hold now for Third Chair? You think you're going to get there? I'm like John Calipari. Let's see what the boosters can do for me. Yeah, it might be time to send you to Arkansas. The Tyson family might want to have a word. Anyhow, Alex, one of my favorite filmmakers. And I have really enjoyed, since I've been doing this show,

having him come on anytime he does something new. It's very interesting that he has made a movie that, you know, he was making smaller films for A24. He made a TV series for FX. This movie is now a big movie. It's a big movie for A24. It's a big movie for movies in 2024. It's a big movie for CRSF and AD.

It is. It's a big movie for the discourse as well. So we'll get into all of our discussion about the film in this episode. We'll probably have a deep spoiler conversation about it. But then afterwards, there's a long chat with Alex that I hope people will stick around for. He was a great guest as always, and I love chatting with him. Let's start with my journeys, because I've just returned. Before we talk about the state of cinema, let's talk about me. Let's set the scene. Okay. Can you just try to do it in the Rosillo cadence for me?

The travelogue? Yeah. This is my Iceland. Yeah. This is me journeying overseas. Well, I love Las Vegas. You guys know that. Yeah. And I haven't been to Las Vegas in five years. In fact, the last time I went to Las Vegas was for San Macon 2019.

Yeah, because I never went during COVID. And I went two to three times a year since I moved to Los Angeles in 2012. I have a close friend who lives there. I, of course, love to play poker. I love to golf. You like to not go outside or see sunlight. And in fact, I did not go outside for the last 48 hours, which we can discuss. And that was clearly getting to me. Let me bring people in. 30 seconds before we started recording, you threw out your back again. You had to take a walk because you didn't go outside and then you drove from the desert. Also sat in a movie theater chair for like two straight days.

But I do think people need to understand about you and your relationship to Vegas is that you drive only. I do. At odd hours of the time. You're not hopping that Burbank Southwest flight to Vegas. I don't. I don't. I met a few people. So I went for CinemaCon, which is this trade show in which the studios present

their upcoming film slate to the exhibitors, the movie theater owners. There's also a lot of vendors there, the various technology companies and concessions companies. It's a big, it's like a big insurance sales. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot about that. We can talk about it when we get into the conversation. What are they doing with Goobers?

Are they iterating? What happened to the Raisinets? I didn't get into it with the concessionaires. That's not really my area of interest. AMC is now peddling instead of Raisinets some like chocolate-covered cherries.

It looks like cherries, but there's also white chocolate. They're trying to be like we're Alassans now, but it's not working. It's not. No way. I didn't get into all that, I promise. I'm there for the movies. Oh, yeah. I all that, I promise. I'm there for the movies.

Oh, yeah. I'm there. And increasingly, I'm there for the people. You know, there's a lot of people that I know now. You said you wanted us to interject. This is what we're curious about. Well, I don't have any concessions bits for you. There were a lot.

Actually, if you look at some of the people covering this stuff, there are long blogs about all the new candies that you'll find. There's also, you know, the Dune popcorn bucket, I think, has set off a big trend that is coming. Like, for example, there will be an alien Romulus bucket. So imagine digging your hand into who knows what it'll be. Do you think it will like explode cherry Coke flavoring all over your face like blood? It might be real blood.

They might be put real alien blood. That would be awesome. You never know. Be careful what you wish for. Anyway, I went to Vegas. I did this thing. I love going to Vegas. But I didn't really have the same Vegas experience I usually did.

I didn't gamble for one second. I never sat down at a poker table the whole time I was there. I didn't have time. I just didn't have time. You just had to schmooze? I remember a time. I did so much more schmoozing than I ever could have imagined, Amanda. I don't know what happened.

I know, because you kept sending me the updates about people you ran into. I ran into so many people. Yeah, I did go to Nobu. People from studios, producers, people from the press. I'm so mad I went to Nobu. No, I'm mad that you fucking, like, you're the king of, like, it's one in the morning. I know. I'm in my dad era.

I'm going downstairs. I'm taking my contacts out. I'm putting headphones on. I'm putting, it was written on my AirPods. Yeah. And I'm going to take down fucking whales. You're just watching Ripley in Vegas?

I crashed out on Monday night watching Ripley. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was so shocked. Well, I'm in the dad era. I don't care.

It's not the same. That's no excuse. I can't stay up until four o'clock in the morning playing cards anymore. You're giving parents a bad name right now.

We can still hang. You've never been to Vegas, so I encourage you to see what it's like when you try to stay up past midnight. It's very hard. Nevertheless, I regret not playing cards. I'm's like when you try to stay up past midnight. It's very hard. Nevertheless, I regret not playing cards.

I'm going to find a way to go back again soon. I think that was my takeaway. It takes place at Caesars Palace, CinemaCon. Just don't lose the essential qualities that make you you, you know? Well, I did drive. I still drove. You know, I still did the psycho thing. I left late last night and drove all the way through the night, which was good.

Anyway, the reason to go is not to schmooze. It's not to play cards even. It's to see movies and trailers. Like, that's really what it is. It's for 80-year-old movie theater owners and 40-year-old dorks like me who love trailers and are like,

is this movie coming out in three months? I can't fucking wait. It's just going to be on YouTube in 12 hours. And in some cases, they are. And in some cases, they're not. No, I know. You have a lot of stuff here. There's a lot.

They presented a lot. I also left early. Like, today, they are and in some cases they're not. No, I know. You have a lot of stuff here. They presented a lot. I also left early. Today Paramount and Disney were presenting. Apparently they're showing 20 minutes of Deadpool versus Wolverine. I'm not seeing it.

I came back to be with you guys. I know that you really wanted to go into that with just like an absolutely like... Oh, pure. It's like Dude Messiah. Don't tell me anything about it.

I want to experience it as a cinematic feature. It's very dorky and I'm okay with its dorkiness. What do you wear to CinemaCon? What's your outfit? Same thing I wear every day. Button down white shirt, green pants. Adidas tracksuit? Yeah.

You look like Teddy KGB. I'm fitted head to toe in Vuori. That's it. I have a question. Would you consider CinemaCon to be a kind of state of the union for the movie going experience and business? And if so, is the state of the union strong? I mean, it is that, but heavily propagandized. Of course. I mean, heavily.

Just like our state of the unions that the president gives us, right? Right, guys? Well, we'll see about that. Alex Garland's Civil War in cinemas. I think it's a good question. I mean, it is really more of a pep rally than it is an honest look at what's going on. When you go to the schmooze sessions afterwards,

everyone's really honest. I mean, everyone's really afraid. There's a lot of concern in the business. Obviously, post-pandemic, but even pre-pandemic, there was just a significant downturn. And a lot has changed. And even being there, I was like texting Amanda nonstop while I was there because I had so many ideas for shows that we could do,

thinking about the way that all these people are thinking about what movie going is. But yeah, everybody's really, really nervous between the strikes and the much smaller slate this year, which frankly trickles down even to us, which makes it harder for us to do the show because there's just not as many movies. Hour three, baby. I mean, it'll be fun when we talk about the weather and food and maybe more of our national politics on this podcast. But we start doing that. And some people are more excited than others. Like if you work at Universal or Warner Brothers, things are not that bad. Like Warner Brothers is having a great year.

Universal had an amazing 2023. If you work at Lionsgate, it's probably that bad. Warner Brothers is having a great year. Universal had an amazing 2023. If you work at Lionsgate, it's probably pretty scary. If you work at Paramount, it's even scarier maybe because you're about to be sold. Not when my guy Dave comes through and pays a premium. You're all in on Skydance. He merges

Ethan Hunt and Pete Mitchell together in Top Gun impossible. Rank your top 10 favorite Skydance movies, non-Tom Cruise division. What are they? It's hard. It's hard to choose. It's like choosing your favorite child.

So anyway, you go to these things. Each studio has a presentation. So in most cases, really famous people will come out and talk about the movies that they made for the studio. And they'll try to appeal to a little bit the press, but mostly just these exhibitors to get them excited about the project. Because what they want is they want the most screens. They want the longest runtime for the movies to run in theaters.

And they want to feel loved. They want their asses kissed. And it's understandable. It's a very weird, sacred, mafia-like agreement between studios and exhibitors. And it's understandable it's a very weird sacred mafia like agreement between studios and exhibitors and it's still going for now

you want to hear about any of the movies yeah what is the movie that you are most like oh cool based on people tweeting about it

I want to know two things I want to know based on people tweeting. I want to know if Furiosa is him.

Yeah. So let's clarify. You have not seen the film Furiosa. You just saw. They showed an extended like eight minute teaser.

And who was there in Las Vegas to present Furiosa? The great George Miller who said that they locked the movie like just days was there in Las Vegas to present Furiosa? The great George Miller who said that they locked the movie like just days prior. Okay.

Chris Hemsworth and Anya Taylor-Joy were the stars of the movie. I've been keeping the faith on this based on the concern about the trailer and I just thought

it looked amazing. Like I knew it was going to be great. There was the same concern around Fury Road. It's clearly going to be a different kind of movie. Like, Fury Road takes place over three days. Apparently, this movie takes place basically over 20 years.

Oh. So there's like, I think the reason Saga is in the title is because it is a long-spanning kind of epic film, not just a road movie. But there's a lot of road movie stuff. I don't really want to spoil anything else for anybody, but I think everybody in the room was like, phew, this is going to be good.

Yeah. So that was exciting. Mickey 17. january what's going on i don't know so they showed the trailer for this bong joon-ho film which we've been hearing about for basically immediately after he won best picture and we hadn't really seen anything but one image of robert pattinson for the longest time the date shifted a couple of times and moved into this dead zone, like a true dump you already did, which is very strange. I saw the trailer. I will say the movie looked good. It's definitely more Okja than Snowpiercer or Parasite. And there's like a goofiness to the high level sci-fi. I wonder if you won't like this. I don't know Amanda. I liked Okja.

Okay. So, you know, there's a zaniness to Okja that felt very evident in this movie. Robert Pattinson is doing a voice. He's made a real choice on the voice he's doing. Robert Pattinson was there. Robert Pattinson and Bong Joon-ho were there. Congratulations to him. He's a new dad. He also probably going to bed before midnight in Vegas would be my...

Actually, he probably just jumped on a jet and immediately left CinemaCon as soon as he was done. To get back on his Batman workout plan. He looked svelte when I saw him. Maybe Batman like Bobby is cutting. Could be. as soon as he was done. To get him back on his Batman workout plan. He looked svelte when I saw him. Maybe Batman like Bobby is cutting. Could be. I mean, he was cutting for the first Batman film.

No, he had to bulk for that because he's a rail. Yeah, you have to get a frame going for that. He was more built in the Batman than he was in Twilight. But he's got to be

the skinniest Batman of all time. That's a really good idea for a podcast. Don't you think? Skinniest ever? The suit for sure. Skinniest Batman ever.

Mickey 17. I don't know why they put it on that date. Most of the people that I talked to after they showed the movie were like, why not just put this on November 17th? Like, I just feel like it'll do better business. People want the beekeeper in January. They don't want a Bong Joon-ho movie. Yeah, I don't get it either.

So it was a bit of a head scratcher. But the movie itself, it's like Stephen Yeun's in it. Mark Ruffalo's in it. Like, it's a futuristic sci-fi romp from Bong Joon-ho. Like, it's going to be... Worst case scenario, it's going to be fun. Is it going to be a, like, festival debut and then slow rollout?

Maybe. They didn't talk about anything like that. It's a good question. But just a hard not for awards. It doesn't look like it. It really doesn't look like it. I saw when people were talking about Robert Eggers' Nosferatu,

there was the vibe from, like, Focus from like focus features or like the announcements around it were way more like Dracula back and loving it than like it was like from the great art house auteur Robert Eggers. I think they're, they want to make it really commercial. They tried that with the Northman too. Yeah. But okay. So the stories that I've heard, what I've heard about this is that the Northman did

okay at the box office and then was like the biggest PVOD movie of the year that it came out. In part because it was still kind of a COVID time. Okay. And the reason that Eggers is making another movie for Focus Features is they're like, he's a commercial director. He's a genre director who knows how to get asses in seats or asses on, you know, PVOD screens. The movie looks very big in scale, but it's definitely a Robert Eggers movie it's like fast zooms and creeping dread

and ornate costumes and set design the trailer did not show Nosferatu like you don't see Bill Skarsgård as Nosferatu but they literally seven or eight characters

say he's coming he's coming and it's like cut very aggressively and excitingly it was probably the best looking thing I saw. I'm obviously in the bag for Robert Eggers, so maybe not to be totally trusted,

but I thought it looked great. There's a movie, I can't tell if it was part of CinemaCon or if it was just the trailer came out parallel to CinemaCon, but it is the only thing I care about in life anymore and that's Maxine. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, so A24 was not at CinemaCon. I don't think they've ever gone to CinemaCon. Neon was not there. Notably Sony also didn't present this year. A lot of the studios

have smaller slates so they don't have fewer things to show. I think there was something like a little concern when your big ticket item is like Craven the Hunter. Maybe if Sony had

Spider-Man into the reverse. They might have gone. Yes. But A24 I don't think has ever gone. Maxine looks sick though. They might have gone. Yes. But A24 I don't think has ever gone. Maxine looks sick though.

That looks great. Pretty excited. My girl Mia, Ty West back, the trilogy. Should we all revisit the trilogy of Ty West,

Mia Goff movies? Should we do a live rewatch of all three? Of Pearl? Yeah. That sounds great. Quite a loaded cast

in Maxine as well. Monaghan's back. Oh man. As a cop, not since Gone Baby Gone well. Monaghan's back. Oh, man. As a cop? Yeah. Not since Gone Baby Gone has Michelle Monaghan been a cool cop. I love that.

She's actually a private investigator in that. Oh, sorry. Well, close enough. Yeah. The noisiest movie was probably Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. No, it wasn't. At CinemaCon, it was. At CinemaCon, because the whole cast was there.

Tim Burton was there. Yeah, sure. This was like peak. I think it was. At CinemaCon, because the whole cast was there. Tim Burton was there. Yeah, sure. This was like peak. I think it was like 4.45. Like I'm on like a Tuesday. I'm on the playground. I'm just like trying to get through. And this was like peak CinemaCon pilled

is you just texting me and Chris. Everyone thinks Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice is going to be massive. Does that track for you guys? I was like, I don't fucking know, Sean. You're movie podcasters. I think we both shared telepathically

the sense of like, I haven't really given Beetlejuice any thought in 20 years. Yeah, and you're just like deep inside the propaganda brain and you're just like, and also Tim Burton brain. It seems like they seem surprised by how good it actually turned out

that's great Jenna Ortega I get it I think what I'm responding to is other people that don't work at Warner Brothers

being like fuck this movie is going to take over for a month and also journalists I think just reacting to it because

it looks like there's no CGI it looks like it's the same way they made the original. Well that's all practical effects.

So they showed a short featurette of the movie it wasn't a trailer bring back crafts and it looked cool. I mean it looked like an old school Tim Burton movie.

I mean he hasn't made a good movie in my opinion in 30 years. So I but his the movies he made between 1984 and 1995 I fucking loved like were formative for me.

So whether or not this is good, I don't know. But everyone's back. Michael Keaton, Winona Ryder, Catherine O'Hara, Jenna Ortega's in it. I'll be curious to see. Like, will kids like it? They liked Wednesday. So, maybe they'll like this too. I'm not really sure.

Can we talk about the actual biggest movie? What was the actual biggest movie? It was Joker, Follia, duh. Yeah. And then you just went silent. You guys saw the trailer. I wanted to save this for us. I call it Joker Folia, duh. Yeah. And then you just went silent. You guys saw the trailer. I wanted to save this for us.

I call it Joker FAD, by the way. Have you been practicing your Duolingo French so you can understand the film? No, I just realized

I got charged $80 for Duolingo the other day because it's like the renewing subscription because I was- But you've been learning German.

No, but I was trying to build up my French last year. Oh. And then I got to France and they were like, you don't have to speak French. And so I was like, this was a complete build up my French last year. Oh. And then I got to France and they were like, you don't have to speak French. And so I was like,

this was a complete waste of time. But you knew that. I didn't. That has changed so much in the last 10 years too. I feel like when I first went to France in 2009 and everybody was like,

you stupid American, get away from me and not communicating with me. And now I feel like you go there and they're like, welcome to France. Yeah. I'm Steve.

Chris, if you speak in a foreign language on the podcast you can just expense that man so every once in a while just toss out a phrase 80 bucks that's back in your pocket you started that's well I'm almost Phillips is doing the work fluent in Japan about to be fluent in Japan. Japanese. Did you see Joker? Yeah. We saw it together. Don't you remember? Chris and I went together at the Arclight.

Oh, there was a baby there. No, it was a dog in a stroller. Oh, a dog. We were sitting there and we were like, this is a dark end for what might happen to us.

Did you? I know Amanda didn't like it. Did you like it? I liked the ending, which is a weird thing to say yes yeah but you related to that part I liked it I think he's I

think Tom Phillips is actually a really good filmmaker I think this is a little bit of a waste of his time but like it's it's still fine you know I think the money was just too

big for them to resist that feels like I think he talked about it he was there and he talked to Mike DeLuca and Pam Pam Abdi the the studio chiefs of Warner Brothers kind of hosted

their presentation and so they were interviewing the filmmakers and the actors and he he in a very polite way

was basically like me and Joaquin couldn't say no to making another 500 million dollars and I suspect he'll do very well in this movie

he kind of elided whether or not it was a musical he said it had music was essential to it, but the trailer doesn't show us any singing from Lady Gaga. It looks like there's a huge musical sequence, at least.

Yes. You know, I thought it looked fine. I really liked the first one, and I got what he was doing, and I didn't think it was problematic or annoying or weird. I thought it was a fun break from what comic book movies had been up to that point. The second one, I don't really have a strong feeling

about either way. Like, we'll cover it. Maybe it'll be good. I tend to think that Todd Phillips is a little underrated as a filmmaker, but I do also wish he would just make another comedy.

Or anything. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I need another War Dogs. Not a big War Dogs guy. Oh, yeah. Actually, War Dogs has had like a little bit of like a...

I know. I'm not in that. Yeah. I know. That's a zillennial thing. That's a Bobby. Bobby, you like War Dogs? Not at all. bit of I know I'm not in that I know that's a that's a zillennial thing that's a Bobby Bobby you like War Dogs? not at all

never seen it okay oh fucking Horizon right so Costner was there I mean I can't wait

I like I actually can wait for the film but the summer of Costner and just watching this all happen and watching this all happen, like in tandem with Megalopolis and Coppola

and just like everybody's last stand. That was also, that was really the talk of Vegas. Everything that the people who were at the Megalopolis screening, because, you know, all the studio chiefs are there. A lot of studio people were there.

And then all the press around it, where it was like that first piece by Mike Fleming, which we talked about earlier this week on the show, which was like a bold and audacious film. Many people are talking. Eisensteinian, yeah. And then five days later, Kim Masters comes in and it's just like,

studio chiefs are like, fuck this, I'm out of here. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle and people who like movies, I'm sure will think it's an interesting film. But everybody who worked at a studio that I talked to at Megalopolis was like, nope, no way.

Like, never going to happen. They're going to have to figure out something weird. I thought... Right, we got to put our money on Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Honestly, yeah. You know?

Yeah. Whether or not they have any wisdom with those things is always debatable. He should set up FrancisFordCoppola.com and charge like five bucks for people to stream it

on his site. If he crowdfunded the release of the film, it probably would work. Because there's just as many dorks. I don't know if it would make $100 million. No, no. I think he must have gone into this

knowing he wasn't going to make back a massive profit. I don't know whether he did, but that's okay. The movie itself, as much as I heard. But that's the essence of Coppola, you know? Even by his standards, though, and I wonder if your husband, Zach, knows more about this, having spent some time with him and talking to him about it.

But the movie does sound crazy, not just in a formal way. There's some things that he's done experientially with the movie that it sounds like we've never seen before. People didn't seem to think that worked. I'm really excited to announce that I'm going to be one of the people showing up in theaters talking to the screen. To act with the screen, yeah. I'm getting my SAG card. Would I be good at it? theaters talking to the screen. To act with the screen. Yeah. I'm getting my SAG card. I should check that. Wouldn't I be good at it?

Would you get a SAG card if you were acting with a screen rather than being on screen? Oh, that's a good question. Do you wish that that's what it was like making this show? That there was just a pre-recorded version of me

that you could respond to however you chose and I wouldn't react negatively? That would be fun for you. Horizon! Yeah. I mean, it looks like a streaming tv series to me like like it's it's a digitally shot western like what what uh maybe it's maybe it is shot on film but it looks digital

and every set looks like it was built the day before and sure there's moments where kevin costner is like you know quick drawing a pistol and shooting a guy and i'm like fucking a that's cool so you can see the movie. No, they showed an extended cut of I guess only part one. I thought Costner in his remarks to the exhibitors

really like kind of red-stated, blue-stated it. He was like, the thing about America is it's amazing because people went west and they took things.

Did they take things from people who were there for thousands of years? They did. Is that good? Up for debate. The Costner the Costner experience

I really could give or take another like eight hour western from him in two parts but like him just talking in public for the next

three to five months can't wait he's gonna have to I think to convince people to go see this movie it's a really it's only a big bet by him he's already like

I would go back to Yellowstone to end the story properly he's publicly talking about that yeah I think it will be really fun for us It's a really, it's only a big bet by him. He's already like, I would go back to Yellowstone to end the story properly. He's saying that? He's publicly talking about that. Yeah. I think it will be really fun for us to talk about his movies and fun to rewatch some Westerns and to think about what he's contributed to movies.

I just think this is a very strange gamble by him. But maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe it'll be good. The one thing that I saw that was a surprise which I didn't know anything about was that Aziz Ansari has a movie coming out called Good Fortune

it got dropped by one studio and picked up by another is it the same movie though because this feels like a new movie is it the one that he was shooting

with Bill Murray or is it a different one oh you're right that was the Kiki Palmer movie right it must be the same one I can't remember I don't know if this is

the same one but Lionsgate has it now and it's it's Aziz and Keanu Reeves and Seth Rogen It must be the same one. I can't remember. I don't know if this is the same one. Okay. But Lionsgate has it now. And it's Aziz and Keanu Reeves and Seth Rogen. And Seth Rogen plays a very wealthy guy. And Aziz plays a very down-on-his-luck guy who's living in his car. Keanu Reeves plays the angel Gabriel. It's very Heaven Can Wait.

Very like comedy with a kind of heavenly supernatural element. Very light touch though. Like very grounded version of that. Does it have like a kind of master of none visual sensibility? It looked good. Yeah, it looked good. I mean it's possible it didn't work. Aziz was there. He was like on fire. He was so funny and it was the first time that like an actually good live

entertainer spoke to the audience over four days. And he just took over the Lionsgate presentation and was brilliant. And you know, sitting through like soda fountain presentations. Oh my God.

So it can be really boring there. But he was great. He kicked ass. Maybe the movie won't work, but that was the one thing where I was like, oh, I didn't know that this was actually

going to come out this year. So that was interesting. Twisters looks like it rocks. Like there's not really much to say. What's up with Ballerina? So they, here's clearly what happened with Ballerina? So they, here's clearly what happened with Ballerina.

They remade it. They basically restarted it. So I think they made the movie, Len Wiseman directed it, John Wick 4 went bananas, and they were like, we can't fuck this up. So I think,

because Chad Stahelski, the director of the John Wick movies, got this new job at Lionsgate overseeing all the Wick stuff, he basically was like,

we're doing five new action sequences for this movie. So it's not now not coming out until 2025. But I saw it look good. And also Keanu was in the trailer. So he's like, it takes place between John Wick 3 and John Wick 4. But it's Anna's arm is kicking people in the throat. Is she doing

ballet? Oh yeah. There was lots of ballet in the trailer that I saw. I'm excited. It takes place between Wick three and week four. Okay. That's what they said. The Eric Adams administration. Just situate me where we are in time. What did you learn about the film Wicked, part one?

I just don't get it. I mean, I don't either, but it's funny to make you talk about it. I mean, they showed a really, really long clip, like an extended feature clip from it. It's the adaptation of the very famous musical that none of us have seen. You haven't seen it, right? Are you any closer to understanding the premise of Wicked? I think that we should never read the Wikipedia page and just... I'll just say this.

It'll be like, do we know Wicked or the Jurassic World? Well, I was thinking about this this morning. Yeah. I mean, it's very Harry Potter. It's very like there's like a kind of wizarding school.

Right. It's about this versioning relationship between Glinda and what is Cynthia Erivo's the green evil witch.

I don't even remember her name. Ethelba? Ethelba. Yeah, that sounds right. And how like how it all comes together. Wizard of Oz is one of those things to me where it's like anything that is ancillary to the original movie or a spinoff,

I think stinks. I think the Sam Raimi movie stinks. I don't really care for the dark eighties Disney movie that, um, favors a bulk was in anything animated. I'm not interested in the original movie is a critical piece of culture to me in my life. I don't really want anything else about it. I think John Chu's a good director. I didn't think the movie looked very good. Yeah. But it was people, they did a

whole light show and presentation. The whole cast was there. People are nuts about this. Everyone who has any familiarity with Wicked, the musical, or any affinity for it. It's just like, wow, this is the best thing that's ever going to happen. I find it deeply puzzling. It was discussed in the same vein as Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, where it was just like

clear out on Thanksgiving. This is the only movie in November. Like, you can't even begin to believe how popular this will be, but it is just a cultural thing that missed us. But isn't Moana 2 also coming out in November?

It is there, and I wonder what that will do especially being deep in the Moana hive now. I can't believe you skipped Moana presentation. I know. Moana 2 today.

You didn't want to no spoilers right? Moana rocks. Like it is really good. But the new one doesn't have Lin-Manuel Miranda songs right? Is that true? I thought so.

Oh that's true. I mean the songs in Moana are excellent. I know I sound like a fucking weirdo. What's Lin-Manuel Miranda doing? If not Moana 2. You tell me. I don't know.

I'm not sure. There's something weird about this too, because, you know, they're making a live action Moana, which got pushed all the way to 2026, but it's being directed by Tommy Kail, who directed... A live action Moana? Yes, starring The Rock.

What? But that was The Rock. What? But that was like... Singing volcanoes? I don't know. Why is that live-action? I don't know. How is that possible? But that was supposed to come out,

I think, this fall. What? And then they moved it because the story is that they were making a Moana TV series. Right. And they were like, oh, this TV series is too good.

We have to make it a movie. So we're going to take this Disney Plus thing and to make it a movie. So we're going to take this Disney Plus thing and put it in a movie. So now we have to push the live action version of the movie we're making to two years from now.

Also, the Disney live action movies aren't really working anymore too. So, you know, like Mufasa's coming out and then the Moana movie. Yeah, also The Rock is not really working. Why?

Because he went to WrestleMania and didn't endorse Biden? Yeah. Well, I mean, before that. He was great at WrestleMania. Remember he got fired from, you know, and then he got Henry Cavill fired from DC. Oh, from Fast and Furious? Yeah.

No, from the DC Universe. What were they doing? Superman. Yeah. Oh, James Gunn was also at a cinema con. Oh, great. Where is it James Gunn these days? He did a video.

Did he give you an update on what the tone of the new Superman movie will be? He didn't. I'll tell you, this is important. I thought of Chris during this.'t. I'll tell you, this is important. I thought of Chris during this. Why? I'll tell you. So, David Coren Sweat

and Rachel Brosnan are Clark Kent and Lois Lane in the film. And David Coren Sweat was wearing an eagle sweatshirt during his presentation. That's cool.

That's a first. If Superman wears an eagle sweatshirt, I'll see it 500 times. I will literally see it 500 times. Every day, I will go to Superman. They didn't show anything. I'll see it 500 times. I will literally see it 500 times every day. I will go to Superman. They didn't show anything.

That's the thing too. A lot of the presentations are like coming to you July, 2025. I'm like, what the fuck? That's like 14 months from now. What else? I did mention to you guys that I left early.

So I missed the Paramount and Disney presentations. And while we were recording, it was just announced that Damien Chazelle, my guy, my homie, little Damien, as you dubbed him on the Babylon Watch Along, Chris, has a- He put a chip on his shoulder, Chris. That was really, that was good stuff.

Many people are saying it might be because of the Babylon Hive rewatch bump that Damien has a new movie. He has a new movie. Paramount did not say goodbye to him after the struggles of Babylon but we've held strong and Paramount held

strong and his new movie which is a 2025 film all we know about it is that it's going to be set in a prison. What's the other movie that he's producing

that David Ayer or somebody is directing? Not sure. It's Heart of the Beast. And I sent you the movie and you were like inside of us are two wolves David air that is really

that is my personal duality in many ways you excited for Chazelle shot caller yeah fucking musical set in a prison I'm not happy but like yeah I'm up for for it sounds pretty great I'm not happy, but like, yeah, I'm up for... It sounds pretty great.

I'm interested. I loved, loved, loved the trailer for Trap, the new M. Night Shyamalan movie. M. Night Shyamalan moved to Warner Brothers. Here's the... Can I tell you the premise for it? I think this is... I don't know if the trailer gave away too much,

but it's a great idea for... Well, still tell us then. Well, they're going to put the trailer on. You're going to watch it. But I might not watch the trailer. You really don't want to hear it? Well, it's a podcast, so I, don't tell us then. Well, they're going to put the trailer on. You're going to watch it. But I might not watch the trailer. You really don't want to hear it? Well, it's a podcast, so I have to,

but go ahead. Okay. Everybody else, if you don't want, if you're worried that they told you too much, skip ahead. This movie's in your lane.

I'm going to see it. It's Josh Hartnett and a 10-year-old girl. So excited. I mean, I love nice movies, but it's Josh Hartnett and a 10-year-old girl and they're in the car

and they're on their way to a concert. It's like a Taylor Swift, Rihanna-style figure. And this little girl is so excited about the concert. So they get to the concert and they get in. And it's unusual because it's like a really big event and there's a lot of kids there and there's like a lot of security around and they've got great seats.

They're like on the floor and they're sitting down and she's like a lot of security around and they've got great seats. They're like on the floor and they're sitting down and she's like, dad, these seats are incredible. Thank you so much. And it's like a beautiful like father-daughter moment. You know,

we're halfway through the concert and Josh Hartnett's character stands up and he's like, honey, I really have to go to the bathroom. Oh no. You know, are you going to be okay by yourself? And she's like,

yeah, so you think it's going to be that movie and it really sets you up for what terrible thing is going to happen to this little girl. So we follow Josh Hartnett's character out and he goes to the bathroom and then he comes back and he's looking around in the sort of terrarium outside of the concert. And he's like seeing more cop cars pull up. He's seeing what looks like additional security and maybe even federal agents. And he turns to one of the merchandisers and he's like,

hey man, what's going on here? And the merchandiser leans over and he's like, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but you know the butcher, that serial killer who's chopping people up? The feds got a tip that he's going to be here tonight. And this whole concert is a trap to make sure he doesn't get out alive and so you're like okay so this is just a thriller about how there's a killer at a concert it's all in like a two-minute trailer and then we see a flash in josh hartnett's mind of him in the bathroom stall and he's holding his phone and he's pulled up a security app and it's live footage of someone that presumably he has tied up in his basement at

home and he's the killer so he is the killer who has a 10 year old daughter at this concert and he is being trapped inside of this show and then hard cut after you realize you they we realize that it's him who is the killer well they told us way too much i don't but maybe they didn't maybe that's only the first 30 minutes i don't know but i was like holy okay this is a great idea for a movie sure obviously he's known for having great ideas for movies and then not always delivering right but i was really drawn in and also we whine about like what movies we don't get anymore and no this sounds great i'm like this is a straight up original thriller this is a cool cool idea i wish i didn't know i i felt similarly i'll say the same what the same thing about Speak No Evil,

which they remade Speak No Evil, that crazy horror movie that Chris and I loved, which I famously. Which would never happen to me because I don't make vacation friends. Right, exactly. You may recall 2022 Sundance, that movie played.

It's on Shudder right now. It's been remade with James McAvoy and your boy Scoot McNary and Mackenzie Davis about two couples who meet on a vacation and one of them invites the other to come visit them in their beautiful

lavish home overseas and then crazy shit starts happening. I don't mind that they remade it. I think sometimes an English language remake can be good.

I thought the trailer gave away like every single thing about the movie and that that was a huge mistake. Unless there's some other other twist

that we don't know about. If they change the ending then maybe it's fine. But they gave away a ton in this trailer, which I think is already out, right? Like you can watch that now. I will not be watching it. Even though they gave it away

and even though I've already seen it. Important movie for you. Conclave. Because I'm into papal elections. It's literally a movie about a papal election. That's sick. It's, I mean,

it's Edward Berger. There's only one person on this call who's had a papal conclave blog, and it's me. Was it a blog spot or a Tumblr? Blog spot. Okay. Yeah.

I remember that. What was it called? White Smoke, I think. Let me see. I thought it was Conclave So Real. Blog spot. Are you sure it wasn't? I think it was Conclave So Real. Yeah.

It was Conclave So Real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it a horror movie? It's a thriller. It's like a pure thriller. Okay. And everything takes place inside the walls of the conclave. And it's Edward Berger who made All Quiet on the Western Front. It looked beautiful. It looked kind of lavish. It was very ornately costumed and designed. Ray Fiennes, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, and an international cast. Just like an adult, like kind of like prestige-y thriller that looked really good.

Did you see what Edward Berger's next movie is? No, what is it? It's a movie with Colin Farrell about a gambler who has to lay low in Macau. I didn't see. It's a Sean Fennessey story.

Yeah. Okay, one more really big one is Michael, which is the Michaelael jackson movie from lionsgate yeah so graham king is the producer of this movie he produced bohemian rhapsody and argo and he came out and talked about it for like 10 minutes and then they showed an extended preview of the movie it's directed by antoine fouqua written by john logan who wrote gladiator and the aviator and a bunch of other stuff it stars mich Michael's nephew Jafar as Michael, Coleman Domingo as his dad, Joe Jackson,

Nia Long as his mom, Miles Teller's in it, although he wasn't in the preview that I saw. He's the lawyer. He's the lawyer. And I hate movies like this. And it's compounded by the just absolute, like impossible to discuss controversies of

michael jackson and i got the sense that everybody there was like thank god this movie's gonna make a billion dollars genuinely which made me just ill people almost stood up and applauded at the end of the preview when is it coming out april 2025 okay so i need to resign by March 31st, 2025. I thought it was going to be before the next Daniels movie, but it's actually going to be before this. Okay. So brace yourself, I would say. I was thinking just independent of Michael Jackson's biography,

how it's so funny because every time one of these jukeboxes, I know it's not a jukebox musical. It's so funny because like every time like one of these jukebox, I know it's not a jukebox musical or it's by, you know. It's so clearly leaning on, I think it's 25 Michael Jackson songs appear in the film. Every time one of these things comes out, I'm just like, what a fucking stupid idea.

And now it's like when this Jeremy Allen White, Bruce Springsteen movie comes out, I'm going to be like, brother, you're so into my soul. I'm like crying. It's not just that it's Jeremy Allen White

is Bruce Springsteen he's making Nebraska he's making Nebraska it's like it's the difficulty of making Nebraska I don't think I'm going to sit in the movie theater

I think I'm just going to stand at the screen saluting Jeremy Allen White I'll just be like that's a great t-shirt man gut check is he a good Bruce

I actually think yes you think he is do you think he's a good Bruce? Yeah, I see it. It's also just like Scott Cooper making a movie about the making of Nebraska with Jeremy Allen White

is like something that like happens in the last eight seconds of a dream of mine. And then I wake up and I'm like, wait, I had an amazing idea. You know what I mean? The problem with me going to CinemaCon

is I can't be near you guys when stuff like Jeremy Allen White will be Bruce Springsteen happens, so we can't talk about it immediately. But it's like, it is the funny thing where it's just like every one of these,

someone out there was like so fired up for Queen, obviously. They made like $800 million. But like, I'm just like, man, just wake me when the boss is here.

I mean, the Michael Jackson movie is going to be a massive hit. The Bruce movie feels a little more artistic, which is risky. I think I will help power its box office. That's pretty much it. Okay. I had a nice time.

I forgot about being around cigarette smoke. I haven't. I know you haven't. I was offered cigarettes not once, twice, three times, but four times while I was there. Right, because you definitely give up, give off the casual smoker energy. No, I don't give that off.

Why? Because I'm so physically decrepit? And a hypochondriac. No, I just don't think, you seem like you are a very conscientious and clean liver at this point. And so I don't think everybody would be like, do you want an American spirit?

Well, the one night that I was there was the first night that I had more than one alcoholic beverage in a row. That was a mistake. I had four or five beverages. What's worse, someone offering you a cigarette or someone offering you dairy? Oh, dairy.

Dairy is just disgusting. Just like a glass of milk. No, whole milk is back now. Back from who? It never left. Some of us knew. Some of us just stayed processing dairy. Big dairy took down big nut milk and big starch.

We have to have a long conversation about Civil War. We can't start here. We have to do it. I'm like, what if I forget everything that happened? Can you pick? Okay, so the other thing that happened in the world of movies is that the Cannes Film Festival lineup was announced today. We're not going to do an entire analysis of the lineup.

It's an unusually non-American lineup, I would say, in part because there just haven't been as many American films that have gone into production because of the strikes. There's a few significant ones. We talked about Megalopolis. That's there. The new Paul Schrader movie. O Canada is there. Can I try to take out here? Yeah.

I'm not sure I believe it. I just want to workshop and I just want to throw it against the wall and see if it sticks. Hey, Yorgos, man, just maybe let somebody else eat for a minute.

Oh. Back off a sec. You're mad about this? Question. Have you seen Poor Things? No, I haven't. Yeah, okay. There we go.

I didn't watch the new, so Kinds of Kindness is the new Yorgos movie, which is coming out in June and premiering at Cannes. I only saw the teaser. I didn't watch the new trailer, but in the teaser, I was like, Yorgos is back. This is the Yorgos I've which is coming out in June and premiering at Cannes. I only saw the teaser. I didn't watch the new trailer, but in the teaser,

I was like, Yorgos is back. This is the Yorgos I've come to know and love where people just do absolutely awful things to each other for two hours. Not that I didn't like

poor things, which I did, but I'm more of a dog-toothed guy. Yeah, sure. I love dog-toothed. Anthologies, though? Nope. I know.

I know you don't like those. Yep. But really good stars in this one. And also, I like everyone. And, you know, Lord knows those. Yep. But really good stars in this one. And also this like, I mean, I like everyone. And you know, Lord knows Joe Alwyn is going to need some rehabilitation this summer. I'm just wishing him well. Poor guy.

This poor guy is not going to be able to make a single promotional appearance for this movie. Are you in the, what is that album called? Like the Lonely Poets Department? Tortured Poets Department. Tortured Poets Department. Are you like the dean of that school? But it's also this movie is coming out so quickly after poor things which is just kind of like oh you had like three half-baked ideas and you're gonna put them

together that could be the case that could be the case uh anything he does is worth seeing there's there's many well-known international filmmakers Giacchonke, Jacques Audiard, Yorgos, Karim Anous, like a lot of Palo Sorrentino, very well-known filmmakers. You always see them at festivals like this. I think it's important to talk about because Cannes birthed three Best Picture nominees last year,

An Anatomy of a Fall, Zone of Interest, and Killers of the Flower Moon. I imagine it's going to have a few more here this year, in part because of the way that production went for movies. Is there anything, when you guys look at this, that you're like, ah, earmark that, or I'm interested, that is outside of the Furiosa, Horizon,

stuff we already know about on this list here? I mean, there's the Andrea Arnold. Yes. There's a new Sean Baker movie. There is the Paul Strader with Jacob Elordi, which suddenly gets my interest in a paul strater should be an interesting episode for us richard gear and jacob alorti oh yeah that's right yeah richard gear's reunion it's gonna be really twisted but that's okay i do yorgos is in

competition megalopolis is in competition which will be interesting i guess i don't know how i feel about the apprentice i want to get his opinion about this and it might segue into our next segment pretty well The Apprentice is a movie that I actually mentioned to you and Joanna when we were talking about 2025 Oscars, it's Ali Abassi's new film director of Holy Spider and a few others

it is a film about Donald Trump set in the 1980s and Sebastian Stan plays Donald Trump and who plays Roy Cohn? Jeremy Strong. Well, I love Jeremy Strong I really appreciated his secondary in the 1980s and Sebastian Stan plays Donald Trump. And who plays Roy Cohn? Jeremy Strong. Well, I love Jeremy Strong. I really appreciated his secondary

in the Anne Hathaway article. That was great. Oh, that's why. You needed to email it. That was amazing stuff. Because he's in character for Ibsen. So he can't.

He is. I think that was why he sent the email. That's why he wrote that way? Yeah. What do you think about this idea? Anything can be

a good movie you know interesting so I'm not against something just because it's about Trump but we may I think he may be a character

who is beyond cinematic depiction at this point how do you think what do you think his tweet review of the film will be? Trump's? yeah

repeal FISA? I don't know. Okay. I mean, I want to see the Jacques Odiard. Me too. I think the Sean Baker movie is very anticipated, I would say.

And Cronenberg has a new movie. That's always exciting for me. The Shrouds. Let's take a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk about Civil War. Okay, we're back. Civil War.

Written and directed by Alex Garland. Starring Amanda's best friend, Kirsten Dunst. Starring Wagner Mora, Kaylee Spaney, Stephen McKinley Henderson, Jesse Plemons, Nick Offerman. It's a movie about America

falling into civil war. And it's sort of about that. It's not about the falling. It has fallen. It has fallen. Yes. Just like London. Just like Olympus.

America has fallen. And when Gerard Butler shows up like London, just like Olympus. America has fallen. And when Gerard Butler shows up at the end of it, I think that's really where... Great scene, incredible cameo. It's sort of like a near future dystopia. A team of journalists are traveling across the United States during a rapidly escalating multi-party civil war that has engulfed the entire nation.

The film, this is important, documents the journalists struggling to survive during a time when the U.S. government has become a dystopian dictatorship and partisan extremist militias regularly commit war crimes. We're going to have a brief general conversation about this movie before spoiling it because I think it's important to talk through all of the creative and formal decisions made around it. Amanda, I'll start with you.

What did you think of the movie Civil War? Oh, no. No, you should start with Amanda. No, no, no, no, no. You guys go first. You saw it together. No, we didn't. No, we didn't.

Oh, you didn't? No. No. Oh. This is three people all separately having this experience. And I don't know really, I mean, I don't know anything about what you thought. Yeah. I went last.

So I went on the night when A24 was doing like advanced screenings that were open to the populace as well so i early access it was like a very like a packed very excited screening i saw friends of ours saw alex and natalie oh yeah um i our awesome babysitter izzy went to a separate screening like at a separate location. Okay. But, you know, so. Well, you've located some.

People are excited and interested in this movie. I met some big picture listeners there. Nice. So, people were out. It was very exciting. Um, and I saw it in IMAX. And I thought, I mean, it was really exciting to see with a lot of people. Because it is, like like it is very like energetic

visceral like exciting I thought the filmmaking was amazing I was frightened I was very locked into it and so I thought it was a pretty like amazing experience of a movie with basically no characters or ideas and like that's pretty interesting right and I've thought a about it, and I've tried to figure out some of the ideas. And I don't know whether I have. I have some ideas about the lack of ideas. It's, I guess, it's been interesting to watch people talk about it and be like, this is going to be the most controversial movie of the year, this will be the most provocative movie of the year.

I've been trying to locate what's provocative about it besides its absence of provocation. I think that might be it. And I guess it was interesting to see it through in a room full of people who were so excited for it and to be, they were excited to be provoked. was noticeable, but kind of more like a horror movie than like a prestige, like thinky drama, which is also revealing. And the more I think about it like an experience and like a film about immediacy, I think that part of it is really effective. And it's really effective. I just think it also might be kind of empty. What'd you think, Chris? I loved it. I think it's my favorite film of the year. Exactly the way Amanda was saying,

it's like I was completely locked in. So I am giving a ton of credence to just my visceral reaction to the movie. Yeah. Which was similar to Oppenheimer, forgot to breathe for stretches, noticed that I was gripping my armrest, is also an incredible film because like I came out of it,

had a conversation with somebody who was just like, that was terrible. You know, like it, it was like, I think the divisiveness you're right. It's going to be based somewhat on like the, the philosophy or the ideas of the film or the lack of the ideas of the

film or what the movie is or isn't saying. But there are also, but like just to come out of it and have some people be like that's for dudes who live in brooklyn you know or like whatever like that's that's a hilarious and interesting like reaction to the film that i've already like kind of encountered and it's it's been it's been really fascinating but for me it was if you i guess it is is this movie are you able to disentangle it from a contemporary political moment?

And if you do, is it, is it just like filmmaking on an incredibly high level that you really love? And is it like, is that enough? Right. Right. I was really thinking a lot about, um, when I was, you know, like some, I don't know how old I was when I first saw this, but I saw Platoon before I saw Apocalypse Now. I remember Platoon, and I think I was pretty too young to see Platoon in any kind of, like, contemporary way.

But once I finally saw it, I was like, Platoon is obviously, like, way better Vietnam movie, right? Like, so Platoon is, like, explicitly about, like, the class and race issues that went into who got drafted to go to the war. It's about how these guys were abandoned and the horrors that they also visited upon the Vietnamese people and all this stuff. Everything is explicit in the text of Platoon, even though it has some obviously incredible storytelling. And then as I got older, I was like, Apocalypse Now is actually the Vietnam movie because Apocalypse Now is an almost spiritual experience of this this thing I am in no way comparing Civil War to Apocalypse Now but I am very actually I am but it has happened before and Garland has talked a lot about Apocalypse Now related to this movie I almost preferred it I almost preferred there being this sort of vague setup where it's like we're not really going to be explicit about why

the sort of political chessboard or the military chessboard has been aligned the way it has we're keeping the pov to these limited characters who are really only interested in one thing and we'll talk a lot about what they're interested in and um i just thought it was like kind of the zenith of a certain kind of filmmaking that's been building up over the last 15 years, which for lack of a better term is A24 core. I don't know if you can do it better than that. Yeah. I think it's probably worth putting that in context too, as we talk about the movie, which is that this is a $50 million budgeted movie. It's the biggest movie Garland's made. It's the biggest movie A24 has made. We've talked a bit about how A24 is trying to scale up now and make bigger movies. This is also an IMAX movie.

I saw it in IMAX with an incredible sound system. I would encourage people to try to see it that way because of the immersiveness that Amanda was talking about. At a minimum, from a formal technical perspective,

it's the best movie that Alex Garland has made. Absolutely. It is so loud and so enveloping that you kind of have to tip your cap. It's interesting that he's been like, I'm going to actually step back a little bit from filmmaking for a little while

because he clearly is like in control of the medium in an interesting way. I have seen some people say that his scripts are getting less sophisticated or less interesting as time goes by, but his filmmaking is getting better and better and better. I think it's very difficult to draw a distinction and even separation from our expectations of our own personal politics, how that is communicated in art, and then what an artist is actually trying to say and where that middle ground is. In a movie like this, which he started writing in 2018, but that when you see the title

and you see Nick Offerman as a corrupt fascist president, you can't help but flash on Donald Trump, January 6th, the possibilities of an overthrown government, our anxieties about the way that democracy has kind of fallen

into a state of disrepair over the last 25 years in America and around the world. The fact that Alex Garland is a British filmmaker who is like, sometimes it's good when a foreign filmmaker makes a film about America

and sometimes it feels like a person who doesn't understand America that well. I didn't know that he was going to do that when I sat down to watch it. I didn't know that it was going to have this kind of political remove. And that I think if you're uncharitable to it, can be like, this is really both sidesing

what could happen in a civil war in some ways by using the journalist as the POV. I liked it for the same reasons that you're talking about though, Chris, which is that I don't really I didn't I don't need my politics like gratified in a movie like this. And I feel like some of the anxiety that I sense is people being like, why don't I have this communicated to me clearly like how terrible Nick Offerman is and why the right needs to know that they can't act this way. Otherwise we will fall into a state of civil war. I'm sure there will be an MSNBC mom reading of that as well. But I'm not offended by its politics at all

because it has no politics. But you were saying it's hard to separate your personal politics from what a filmmaker is trying to say. What is he trying to say? I genuinely don't know. Like, tell me. I watched it.

And I don't know. It's like, is it about moral ambivalence and photojournalism? Like, what are we doing? Like, seriously, what is it? I think it's two-tracked. I think, one, it's literally about, like, what is the role of the journalist and what is the psychology of a journalist? Like, that is something that is clearly very interesting to him. His father was a newspaper cartoonist.

He grew up around journalists his whole life. He's clearly interested in, I thought one of the most interesting dynamics of the movie, which I thought was rendered well. And I thought that they were characters because I know a lot of journalists. And a lot of journalists are like very matter of fact, very kind of burnt out. Some of them are like thrill seekers and some of them are these real like pragmatists. Like I've drank 3000 cups of coffee in my life and they them approaching their work in a fairly standard way in the midst of the craziest thing that has happened in the country in 300 years is a is a storytelling choice

that made sense to me and made me better understand his interest in what it means to get the story or get the photo and what you're willing to sacrifice in order to get that is a dynamic idea unto itself. The other thing, and this is very obvious and maybe not insightful, and if you don't think it's worthwhile, I get it, but just that we are in a more extremist mode in our country than we have been in the last, I don't know, 80 years, 100 years. It depends on how you feel about it. But he clearly is completely distraught by the level of separation, like the inability for people to communicate with each other anymore. And he's like,

this is at the doorstep if we keep going in this direction. And he's like, I'm not trying to say that it's this person or this senator or this mode of political thought. It's just that no one is really talking to each other anymore unless that they feel that the person they're talking to fully agrees with them. And if we continue down this path,

this is what happens. You think that's in the text? Definitely. Where? Look at the conversation with the Jesse Plemons character. Like that sequence is an evocation

of like how quickly it can tip over into genocidal thought. Right. Like that, it's rendered in the movie. Because one of the things that's been fascinating and I can't wait to listen to tip over into genocidal thought. It's rendered in the movie. One of the things that's been fascinating and I can't wait to listen to him

on this show is that I feel like I have done myself a little bit of a disservice reading interviews with Alex Garland about this movie because it's taking away from what I kind of read into the movie. There is a reading of this film that's really about the importance of journalism

and the heroicism of journalists. And then there is a much more interesting reading of the film that I kind of had when I walked out of it, which was that

this movie is quite critical of journalists. Yeah, they're not heroes. 100%. And also, the moth-to-flame attraction that they have to conflict and whether maybe they exacerbate the conflicts. Absolutely.

And whether or not they prize their, in the case of photojournalists, the aesthetic beauty of capturing something tragic happening. I asked them about this. of objectivity and even like to some extent the value of like being a witness or and and and to the extent that this movie has ideas i thought it was extrapolating not just photojournalism but any sort of like a record of being being a filmmaker and an image maker in any way which can i suppose be tied back to the filmmaker. But I don't... And to some extent about the limits of that or, as I said, the moral ambivalence of it,

I don't know where it lands. There was a reason why I kind of started thinking of this. I think this is actually... To me, this nuance is one of my favorite things about all of his movies and it's like this is an ex machina you know it's like it's actually very important to try to innovate in the world but also ego gets in the way of new ideas and then leads to toxicity danger violence misogyny like in each of his movies there is a kind of like wouldn't it be interesting if and as soon as you you do it, and the ego of the journalist, the sort of narcissism that comes with getting the story,

but also the bravery and the kind of craft of photojournalism is something he has a lot of admiration for. They're operating in the same space. Like, it is a nuanced portrayal of someone in a circumstance like this. I think particularly the Kirsten Dunst character. Like one, because she's the best actor in the movie and I think she's amazing in this movie. And two, I think he is most interested in her experience as a person, like her character's experience as a person.

And even though he doesn't give her words to necessarily communicate that, her face kind of tells you everything you need to know. And also her fate in the film, I think is pretty critical to this too. So I like that. It's like, yeah,

journalists are brave and they're also huge assholes. Yeah. I mean, the Wagner Mora character is an asshole. He's like a borderline predator. Never does any writing. Yes. Like,

I think he does very little note taking. He just runs around. The mechanics of how any of these people are like actually doing journalism and how these photos are ever going to be seen, you know, is, is it another one of the things where it's like,'re not fleshing out the reality but and we're not doing rewatchables nitpicks ever but like okay um yeah i've seen people point out the fact that why

is it photojournalism why wouldn't you be shooting video like video is the thing you'd want to be capturing here not well you know i will say like if that's the idea it does fill little small stakes if like if that is the ultimate thing that it's like, we're going to investigate what taking photographs like means as a, as a means of even, even if you're exploring, then what does it mean just to be watching, to be investigating, to not be participating? And, you know, what's interesting is that both the Kirsten Dunst character and the Kaylee Spaney character, they have this conversation about how their parents are from middle america and they're sitting around pretending that this isn't happening and so that's supposed to be some sort of contrast i guess by these people who are aren't they're admitting that it's happening but they're not totally getting involved but right but and and i guess the movie is you know questioning how one gets involved or doesn't get him. Like, I just, I don't actually, none of the arguments are baked enough.

Like, I don't actually know what that leads to besides, like, the actual text of, well, in photojournalism, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. And I think that's small stakes. And I also, like, frankly frankly don't agree with it like and i think like 20 days in mario pole is a recent and like incredible example of exactly what these people are doing that is like actually profoundly important and um and communicates the anti-war sentiment in a real way and you know if you get people to see it which is maybe the problem is like actually does matter so I guess I don't agree with that argument but I'm also like is is this what it's like this is what we dressed up uh I mean I guess like does it have to matter is a is a question worth asking

you know what I mean like you're asking for a kind of moral imperative for the a24 war movie like I it's it's one thing for Alex Garland to insist upon something's importance because he spent a lot of time working on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's another thing to say, is it enough for this to be an exciting movie that got you thinking? Because that's really what it is. It's an exciting movie that gets you thinking, like, hmm, why did he do that?

You might ultimately come to the conclusion that it didn't work or that it was empty. I mean, that's fair. I've been thinking a lot about it. Like, he's basically the male Emerald Fennell for me. Oh, wow. I think that's so unfair. Well, because it's like, I was re-watching Men last night, which I actually like until the end, which I'm like, I literally don't understand what this means. Like, I don't understand what your metaphor about all these men giving birth to each other is supposed to communicate to me. I know that it's like an amazing image and like the mood, the tone, the ideas. I just like, and it's the same thing. It's just that it's an endless and unbreakable biological cycle of masculinity.

Like that's really all that it is. But that does not communicate itself in the movie to me. And I'm like, okay, so then all of these, you know, it's just, again, all of these things in the same way that Emerald Fennell, both Promising Young Woman and Salt Burn, like visually pretty impressive and memorable and playing with ideas and then not baking them. And this is just not baked. What's an example of a movie that is baked? Killers of the Flower Moon. Just off the top of my head.

Okay. Where it's like the way that they are telling the story and what they're doing visually is in line with a larger idea about what's being said i really liked this like as an experience but like that's the other point okay so then we're just watching a war movie that's because i was like very scared like during this movie it was scared because it was because of it was like visceral effect on you because it was loud and like the way that they the guns sound like the way guns would probably sound going off in that capacity or was there any part of it it's like it actually isn't super hard if you especially if you ingest a lot of media yeah it's not super hard to superimpose the images that you're seeing in the movie onto like reality well i think it is kind of hard because as soon as you start superimposing it on reality you're like okay then then you start

asking the questions like why is california and texas yeah and how do they align and so are these people like are they the jan 6 people are they not people like as soon as you are putting it on your world then you are trying to connect the things and the movie very purposefully like limits and sets it up in a way that you, that you can't because I think it doesn't want you to. So I think I was probably scared just because like, it is very like viscerally upsetting, you know?

And like many of the horror sequences or, you know, like the, the set pieces are startling and the cuts and the, and the performances, like it's, it's a, you know, like the set pieces are startling and the cuts and the performances. Like it's a, you know, weird road trip through like very ghoulish parts of America. And I guess they, those moments, like the gas station is a great example of. I call it Pittsburgh ghoulish. PA represent.

In this context. I think the car wash, you know I'm at the car wash you know yes the car wash the car wash you know but it's like it's one of those things where you roll up at

you know a place where you maybe like you don't feel as welcome for whatever reason and then things like rapidly disintegrate and I don't have to

connect that to like okay or did those guys vote for so and so and where where their things like that's just situationally scary strip it down

strip it way down like talking about like kind of is it baked slash does it convey what we need it to convey is definitely the most interesting aspect

of the movie and the takeaway the intention to me seems clear which is that it is an anti-war movie and it is also a movie about the difficulty

of making an anti-war movie because war movies are really exciting. Right. And the last time he was on the show, Four Men, I was like, what's the last great thing you've seen? And he was like, come and see. I went back and looked at come and see because I wanted to see a movie that is similar to something I'm working on that actually works in the way I want it to work. Because it's really hard because he's like apocalypse now opens with a door song. Yeah.

It's fucking cool. And you can't help. But even though it's this psychotronic journey, I would all do respected. This is way more apocalypse now than come and see. I, I, I agree.

So it's like, but is it enough? So forget about his definition for your definitions. Is it a good anti-war movie? No, I also don't know. It's operating in this. for your definitions, is it a good anti-war movie? No. I also don't know. It's operating in this fascinating contrast. I don't really know.

I think I'm sort of on the side of like, if you film it, it's hard to make it. Yeah. I agree with him. Unless you're doing actual photo, you know, video journalism and you're doing 20 Days of Mary Paul.

Like, it's a different thing, but it's a war movie. But can you do like a fictional, like a scripted war movie? And that's what Come and See is. Where you're trying to, but you're creating the thrills and then... Well, I mean, it's interesting that you called out Killers of the Far Moon and Come and See is this too. Those are historical films that are based

on real events or like at least situated in real times. And this is not that. This is inherently a kind of dystopian science fiction. So can you actually communicate in a movie that is taking place in a genre that is like, this should be a thrill ride and has movie stars in it and is exciting and is like, the sound design is amazing in this movie, right? And there's like needle drops where when I'm watching the movie, I'm like, wow, that just hit my pleasure center in an interesting way.

And him thinking about trying to subvert that by using different kinds of needle drops than you would have found in Apocalypse Now or another movie. I guess I don't ultimately have like a strong personal opinion on whether or not a work of art can or can't be anti-war and whether or not this one is. I think he's obviously quite disturbed by violence. I think you only have to watch the Jesse Plemons sequence to be like this is the worst

I've felt in a movie this year. You know, like in a good way. I really was scared for what was going to happen to the characters and that to me is like

that's a dramatic skill. I totally agree but can I tell you so, and we gotta go into spoilers, I guess. Spoilers. Spoiler warning. If you fucking at me even once about spoilers, I'll hunt you down.

What if they do it on threads? I've started, I'll just mute people who bring negativity to threads. Yeah. Has threads started to lose its integrity? No, it's just like one or two. The numbers aren't such that I can't mute people. Like, you know, you can't just, so it's a clean slate. Okay, spoilers.

So, Jesse Plemons kills it. Incredible. The whole show me say thing was apparently improv'd. Oh, great. According to like a Kaylee Spady interview, because she's like him asking about the show me. She's from Missouri. And she's like, that's real. Because I don't know why we say that.

So that shit is so terrifying. And then it is ultimately resolved. Or not resolved. But the climactic thing is that Stephen McKinley Henderson's character comes in the car and basically just like runs Jesse Clements over. And everyone in my screening started cheering at that moment because they were watching it like, you know, this is a horror movie or this is like some sort of payoff thing. Yeah, he saved the day. And that is fascinating. Did he do that on purpose, basically?

Because I think to me me there's correlation there. It's like the Stephen McKinley Henderson character dies because that happens. He gets shot while driving the car and it's a very simple, like there's a toll to trying to be heroic in the act of doing journalism. In the act of trying to get the story,

which is really what is happening. They're getting ensnared in a conflict while trying to do their jobs. And it costs lives. You know, was it exciting? Yeah, it was fucking exciting. Right. Is it okay for that to be exciting?

Also, that character was like, don't do this. This is really stupid. Yeah, he was like, and they basically mocked him. And they were like, you're too old and you're too slow and you should just stand back here. And this was also, the whole scenario was set up because journal it like the journalists were not taking their job seriously and doing like this weird car car switching thing yes and you know so it was just like a bunch of like jokers sorry pun not intended um where would the joker fit where would Joaquin Phoenix's Joker

fit in Civil War? Yeah, he could have been around that ditch with Jesse Clemens. He would have fit right in. He could have been in the ditch. So this Stephen McKinley

Henderson character is the only person who's like, this is actually serious. Like, don't, don't do this. One of the things

that I like about the movie is watching the Kaylee Spainey character who plays this young pup journal photojournalist who really looks up to kirsten dunn's character who's you have the same name as lee miller incredible exposition um a rare moment of exposition actually a movie that resists so much of it yeah and the the dialogue it's like very clear that they went back and be like you're gonna need to need to give people something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although, does anybody even know who Lee Miller is, is the other question.

But nevertheless, the relationship between these two women and this aspiring young photojournalist and Kirsten Dunn's character, who's completely hollowed out, we see the Kayleigh Spanning character get not just braver and braver, but like a little more reckless,

more reckless over time. And dovetailing with an older person who's done a lot of this work, who famously captured the Antifa massacre. In Portland. In Portland, which is something that is alluded to. We don't find out whether or not

it's Antifa doing the massacring or Antifa being massacred. Who can say? Notable bit of elision there. And then by the end of the movie, she's got this like big grin on her face during the final sequence where there's a raid on the White House. Which is incredible filmmaking. And I know we're not supposed to be fact checking this in any way. But it's like three journalists are just like,

along for the ride on Bin Laden, the Bin Laden raid, like, come on. I'll tell you what I liked about that, though. So I really liked that because it is, that is an accurate representation of what happens when there is a coup in certain countries because usually rebel factions know

that getting their message out in the media is really important. And so they handpick people who they feel that they can operate with so that they can tell the story i thought that that was actually a really smart idea because it wasn't the u.s government handpicked they were just there they showed up but yeah but we see that sequence earlier in the film where uh sonoya mizuno's character and another journalist have a kind of yellow stuff. Is that who that is? I don't watch, I don't watch that show,

but those characters, along with the Wagner Mora character and Kirsten Dunst are kind of like, they have the okay from the rebel forces. We see even earlier in the movie during the shootout sequence where they're working in tandem with the rebel forces to tell the story of the uprising. And will they do explain that that's because that journalists are shot on site in Washington, DC by the

president and that no one he hasn't given an interview in 14 months and that like no press are allowed so it is a little bit of like this is the only option we have yeah it's like well if we want to keep doing our jobs could also be shooting journalists you know what I mean and they they've chosen not to and so I bought that at least that they would be able to yeah you know follow along is it a little bit of an like a over imagination of what that moment

might be like it is but I think that also kind of begs the question of like how seriously are you supposed to take this movie like seriously are you supposed to take the details

because while there's so much that is hidden from us he's given in interviews like people are like he's like I find it fascinating that people are

so incredulous about you know the idea of of texas and california uniting do you really think that couldn't happen why is that and it's like uh are these guys mad about the pac-12 like i'm trying to like think of all the reasons why they would get like together and it's like yeah there's some geographical issues that they share and stuff like that but like it is kind of like i guess if you're gonna tease it you should maybe follow through with it but that being said i'm so glad jesse clemens didn't turn to us and say well ever since texas and california got together over this issue like this has been the way it is and i'm evil you know like do you think oh god i i completely agree with chris i do think that there is

a material difference not just for this movie any movie the film does not have to give us all the answers i do feel like the film needs to at least know the answers for itself or else things aren't gonna add up yeah yeah and and that's kind of what I'm pushing up against. What's an example of something that you don't think the film doesn't know the answers of? Let's see. Because Texas and California, I think it's okay to say that's bullshit, that Alex Garland really thinks

that this would happen. But I think he has an answer. I think he's pushed to a certain extremist perspective. You should ask yourself why you don't have an answer, which I'm like, all right, dog. I do think he's trying to like,

throw people that way. I genuinely think that that is really more of the provocation is this. Is it so hard for you to imagine a world in which this sort of thing could happen and these groups could come together and maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's an outsider. Maybe he doesn't really understand the character of politics in America right now. There's also like a very crucial part of this movie to me

is when Kirsten Dunst and Kaylee Spaney are talking about their families. And it turns out that they both have families. One lives in Colorado. One lives in Missouri. Right.

Basically, you're acting like this isn't happening. Yeah. And that was actually the most, one of the more interesting ideas presented in the film is that this could be happening concurrent with everyday life anyway. I think that's a huge part of, one of the more interesting ideas presented in the film is that this could be happening concurrent with everyday life anyway.

I think that's a huge point of the movie, though. Yeah, and that's, there are things happening right now. That was one of the most effective kind of like, ooh, I like that. I like the idea that like, over here, somebody's just driving their Tesla to and from something.

And over here, there are people being hung outside. Yeah, I mean, he puts the cherry on top of that idea when they visit the town where nothing is going wrong but it's also being monitored by trying on a dress as a form of character development um that was that was really insightful um they like dresses is it okay to like dresses but she doesn't you know because she puts it on and she doesn't recognize herself anymore because she's hardened she's moved past the point of wearing green wrap dresses. Sounds like you understood

the character development perfectly. Incredible stuff. Are you saying Alex Garland is a man? Did you think Kiki was good? Yeah I did. I mean she's great and none of them have very much to

work with you know. I think that they's great. And none of them have very much to work with, you know? I think that they have a lot of like, my job in this scene is to get from this point to that point. Like I like movies where characters are on the move and it's like, there's gunfire here and I have to like, and so I didn't necessarily come out of any single scene being like getting anything other than the Jessie character, Kaylee Spaney's character will do anything for the shot.

And as Lee keeps seeing her do this, she herself becomes more timid. That is a pretty rote kind of like dramatic setup. But if you're going to shoot it that way and edit it that way and make it sound that way and put silver apples over it and then have fucking Jesse and who who's your who's your boy from Carl Gussman

what was it Gussman Gussman yeah as this I'm just like this is just like from Zoe Kravitz's

first marriage such a thrilling movie like and I guess I I guess I weighed it way heavier because of that well there's something

ironic to me I think Amanda's point of view on the movie is not uncommon I think a lot of people are going to feel this way especially like erudite people who like watch a lot of movies are going to be like why isn't this movie saying anything to me, I think Amanda's point of view on the movie is not uncommon. I think a lot of people are going to feel this way, especially like erudite people who watch a lot of movies are going to be like,

why isn't this movie saying anything to me? And I think there's, I don't even know if irony is the right word, but to me, one of the reasons why I've loved Alex Garland, I'm like, this is the only filmmaker that's trying to say something. Most directors now are like, I make Transformers movies. And he is consistently like, I'm trying to write original stories, or if I

adapt a book, I'm trying to put my own spin on it it and i'm consistently trying to make movies where you walk out of and you're like what did that really mean and it kind of for me personally his stuff sticks with me and i think it's because it's a movie that is ultimately about like american politics and conflict that are are intellectual uh triggers are very different than if it's about an idea like masculinity and femininity or the way that we have destroyed the environment and it is coming back to haunt us.

Is that what Annihilation is about? Okay, I never knew. My least favorite of the movies. Okay. The thing I said, I'll tell you this. I said something to him and I don't know if he,

maybe he did know this, but I don't know if he, maybe he did know this, but I don't know if it had ever been framed to him quite this way. All of his movies though are just these episodic journeys. They're every single movie, like in Ex Machina, it's just a series of conversations.

28 days later. 28 days later, same thing. It's just like they went from here to here and they encountered another group of zombies. We learned a little bit more information. In Annihilation, it's like another encounter with a weird transfigured creature from nature. In Men, it's meeting different versions of Rory Kinnear.

I mean, all of that is amazing. I just don't understand how the birthing of toxic masculinity is supposed to explain what was going on with her personal relationship and her marriage and her guilt. But whatever. We never got a chance to talk about men because you were you were on leave when that movie came out but i i like really like three-fourths of it i think it's really good like and again the the episodic natures the scenes that he sets up like the rory kinney performance the jesse buckley performance is amazing at the end you know it's like a little bit of a saltbird thing i'm just like well okay sure i like i don't get it but

okay but you're trying to get me to think something. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. I thought that one was like super easy to understand. Maybe too easy

to understand. Yeah. I thought it was just like the most self recriminating, incriminating, like, I can't believe

like what a fucking asshole dude I've been for 50 years and all guys are like this and they have this very like unbreakable like ugliness to them.

I mean, I understand that, but I guess my response was like, is that it? And my response to this is a little bit like, is that it? Like full of journalism. And I think sometimes, you know, we talked about Saul Perlman. It's like definitely stupider

in some ways in these movies, but we were like, okay, so like rich people are bad. Like, is that it? You know? And I think that that is the comparison I'm trying to make where I'm like

but that's not what Sahlpern that's not what Sahlpern is about I mean I don't really know Sahlpern is not about rich people are bad rich people make you crazy

I mean I still don't know yeah to me it's incomprehensible the Alex Garland movies it's like AI is bad be careful that one I understand

I like Hex Machina I get that one yeah I think this one definitely is Machina. I get that one. Yeah. I think this one definitely is a little bit... I get that like scary bears that eat you are bad.

But you know, like I don't... Whatever. Yeah. Okay. All right. It's just... That's where I am.

What was your favorite scene? Definitely just when they were hanging out in Pittsburgh, you know, and like everybody was feeling good. No. That is so weird though, where it's like the refugee camp is like this place of wonder and happiness all of a sudden. And it's just like all these people together gathered

around the fire, like without their phones playing cards. It is like very funny that that is presented as like this utopia. Well, I thought that was an interesting representation of the fact that if something like this happened, it wouldn't be like in 1850 when you could literally on horseback go to the battle place. But now it's like the country is so massive. And if we have had like public transportation has been destroyed

and sometimes there are airstrikes, but most people are basically having like, it was like a foot soldier war in a lot of ways and there could be huge pockets of the world where they're completely like

uninteracted. The Vietnam War like you had a certain group of people were living in the intercontinental hotel and enjoying air conditioning and

some people were refugees like six blocks away. I mean it's not true of the world that we live in now in like a lot of ways. I would say that my favorite scene was actually the sniper stop.

Oh, the Christmas thing? Yes. Yeah, that was cool. Because A, it was just an incredible set piece and just an amazing job of direction. And I love the fact, and it's basically the movie in a nutshell, where they're like, who are you shooting at?

And they're like, I don't know. Yeah, that was a really great moment. And those guys are just like, they nail those that they have so much personality i would say the one of my criticisms is that the people that the group meets along the way are way more interesting than the group so even jesse plemmons who one of the funniest bits i've seen like on litterbox is people being like is this guy too good at these parts? Because it's like this and Todd and freaking bad. It's like, damn, dog. Did you?

He's so good. But I do actually think that in that scene, the best acting in the whole movie is Kirsten Dunst reacting to him. I was just watching her the whole time knowing that it's her husband and just being like, what are you like? Like, can he break you? Like, are you going to show anything?

And she does it and respect to her. It's also like, that's an incredible scene just because he's somehow, well, okay,

I don't know. This is another one of those, like, you can read it a bunch of different ways. There's a way in which to read that where you're like, Jesse Plemons himself and just like his

interrogation of two asian journalists what kind of american are you is is like the thing that you're focused on but you're also by the way in the back he's started a mass grave so like that's the there's a war crime behind him and then he's also being like evil but it there is like this weird like almost distortion field around that character because he's actually so terrifying just individually that you almost like separate it from the fact that like when they happen upon him he is digging a mass grave and they're like we're gonna get

killed because he does not want people to know what he is doing here it also reveals something that probably would happen in the face of a civil war which is that regardless of what sides are on they're kind of like offshoots and individual motivations that get filtered into the conflict this is a weird big fucked up country where people can like kind of disappear i love that i mean again like when you say like what is this movie about like it has all these different kinds of ideas like that it might not have that big exclamation point at the end where you're like well this is what do you. Well, it does. Yeah. It does. Okay.

Okay, so to set that up, I think the Plemons scene, the quiet town, the sniper stop, the gas station. The quiet town. I mean, it is spooky. It's effective.

I think they're like, it changed the energy of the movie for a moment. Yeah, I guess the quiet town itself, the premise is very effective. The character development. Yeah, it's a little silly town itself, the premise is very effective. The character development. Yeah, it's a little silly. It's a little silly. That's all.

The most bracing moment other than the final 20 minutes was the shootout set to the De La Soul song for me. Where he was like, I'm going to show you just actually how like ugly and scary this is.

Where people who are within 50 feet of each other are firing guns directly at each other. They're getting shot and having their bodies torn apart. And then when one side quote unquote wins, they just drag the prisoners out

into the middle of the yard and they kill them. And it's set to this incredibly vibrant, frothy, three feet high and rising song that is just amazing. Or no, first record? First De La Soul record. Anyway, the ending completely shifts the energy and filmmaking style for me.

Where it was like, this is actually now what was once a road movie with these lightly drawn characters is now just a video game movie. Where you're almost entirely in first person POV or what feels, you know, you're like it's a camera on the shoulder, basically. And you're tracing the actual, an actual, what a siege on Washington would probably be like, as close as they can get it for an A24 movie that costs $50 million.

And it is incredible filmmaking all the way through. You feel very connected to what they're trying to show us. And it's a maze movie. It's like you're in Doom or something, trying to get to the center. But then the ending, he makes this very specific choice where Kirsten Dunn's character

essentially has to sacrifice herself. Shouldn't have to. She does sacrifice herself for Kaylee Spaney's character, which is a very on-the-nose, like one must fall so the other may rise. And Kaylee Spaney takes a picture of her

very much in the style of... Which they, you know, it's the Chekhov's photo of someone being shot because they mentioned it earlier in the thing. So then... In the film.

They finally make their way to the White House. They kill the comms rep. They kill some secret service agents. And then finally we get to... When they kill the comms rep. They kill some Secret Service agents. And then finally we get to- When they kill the comms rep, that is very startling. Yes. It's one final sign that these rebels are not fucking around here.

And they get into the Oval Office. And they encounter Nick Offerman. And he pleads for his life. Three-term president that he is. And they kill him. And then they take a very pie-eyed photo op, and the movie ends on the splash. Something happens before that.

What happens before that? They walk in, they're about to kill the president, and Wagner Mora is like, I need a quote. And he says, please don't kill me, and Wagner Mora goes, that'll do. And then they kill him. So what do you think that is? I think that that is a pretty

acerbic portrait of modern media, if I have to guess. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's hopeful. I don't think it's like photojournalists are good. I do not think it is a heroic depiction of modern media.

Definitely not. It is very similar to how most of his movies end. If you think about this men ending that we're talking about where it's kind of like, this is never going to stop.

That's kind of the takeaway there. Yeah. At the end of Annihilation, when you're like, oh, wait, is it inside of Natalie Portman now? And now is the whole world screwed? Or at the end of Ex Machina

when Elisa Vikander's character goes out into the world and essentially is going to world screwed? Or at the end of Ex Machina, when Elisa Vikander's character goes out into the world and essentially is going to become the Terminator. All of his movies, he's like, we're fucked. That is the takeaway of every movie that he makes. Yeah, because I really take your point about Mary Poole and the contemporary value of the work that is depicted in Civil War,

but I think that the movie ends and it's like, does anything that these people do matter at all? I agree that that is what the movie is about. And I'm like, I disagree. But also, there are some larger issues going on in this world. I mean, it ends on the president who has disbanded the FBI and ordered airstrikes on people. So he's like not a good guy, but like getting shot while everyone else is just like standing

around taking photos. You know, that's not great. I thought it's a tradition. The president was really mad about the Pac-12 being dissolved. Would we have applauded that though if that happened to like Assad? You know what I mean? Like that's the thing is that. I mean, we applauded it when we did it to bin Laden.

That's what I mean. I really think that that's what he's trying to say is when this shit happened. You know, the fucking Shane Gillis bit. I'm just laughing because of the rock tweeting about Bin Laden. But seriously, the Shane Gillis bit where he's recounting the speech. Is it Alawi, the ISIS leader who is murdered?

And then he recounts the Trump speech where Trump gets up and he's like, we got that dog. He was a dog. It's just saying the speech as a representation of the way that American politicians

or even just Americans talk about this sort of thing when it happens in another country. Right. You know, where we're just like, it's just about the photo op.

We make jokes about it. Like OJ Simpson died today and we're just like, ha, hilarious. Here's a clip from the naked gun. Meanwhile, that guy probably

fucking killed his wife. You know, it's not that hilarious. Here's a clip from The Naked Gun. Meanwhile, that guy probably fucking killed his wife. You know? It's not that funny. That's very upsetting. But we have this. It's not even gallows humor. It's like a completely emptied, hollowed out,

cynical, like, I guess this is just how it is thing. But when we put it in an American context, everyone's like, ugh. Is that okay?

Well, hold on. So let's see this out. So the last shot, not ideal. Pretty bracing. But Garland has been like, this movie is about this could happen here. Right? And that's where I'm sort of like, this could happen here, but also this is not America at all. And then like trying to tease out what the movie is trying to frighten you with

about like what could happen and how you should and what decisions you should make as it, it just, it gets a little muddled. You're thinking so specifically though, of like the practical, like when this happens. I don't, I'm not sure that we really have the ability

to like figure that out. Yeah. Cause it's like a very practical movie of like wild shit happening and it is trying to make it very immediate and you to be freaked out about the people hanging from the car wash and the suddenly people getting executed and like, you know, you're in a, you're just shopping for a pretty ugly dress,

but like people are hanging up on, hanging out on the roof and all these sorts of things. Like I think the specificity of it is what makes this movie very powerful. But that also does invite you to ask questions about like how you get to this place. I mean, it just does.

And I understand that it's supposed to and it like doesn't want to give you the answers, but I just can't all make it line up you know I get it I think a lot of people will feel the same way that you did

I guess I'm a little I was a little bit less but like a rad movie going experience yeah which you know that sentence suggests that it's not entirely

anti-war well I think it yeah it may be unsuccessful at that yes yeah and I think

and that's to Chris's point of just like when you like when you try to do it with style if you really wanted to make it I do really and that's to Chris's point of just like when you like, when you try to do it with style. If you really wanted to make it, I do really, and I don't, I,

I want to like, I really like love this movie. It, you don't have this soundtrack and you're like, this is an anti-war film. I'm like, bro, you've been thinking about putting silver apples over a drone shot of a

fucking city for five years. It's sick. Live with it. You know what I mean? Like it's not come and see yeah and i think he thinks it is i think he thinks it's effective at making you think it's not and it is the opposite it is like movies are amazing like that's how i feel the second half of layla playing while bodies are falling out of a truck in goodfellas like i know i'm disgusting for liking

this but does that okay so that's a good comparison does that scene in Goodfellas make you feel that what those guys were doing was disgusting and that this is a horrific era of American crime

no it makes me say it is rules hang out with all the people and then every time Layla every time Layla comes but it's just like this style of it

just I mean wow you guys are fucking we're honest we're honest about how movies are powerful Layla comes, but it's just like this style of it. Just, I mean, wow, you guys are fucking, we're honest. We're honest about how movies are powerful. The Layla scene though,

where it's like, here's a guy who's been shot in the head sitting in his car with his wife because he bought her a pink Cadillac. Yeah,

it's pretty bad. This is awesome. They told him not to spend the money on the wrong side. Jimmy Conway was right. It's like Jimmy was hiding his instructions.

Lay low. Okay. All right. Fair enough. right he was jimmy's like jimmy was hiding his instructions lay low okay all right fair enough um i mean i mean it is that central thing and we talk about this like with other movies that are about bad people are bad things and is the film endorsing them like the film is never endorsing it but there is something essential to making a feature film and the way we have been conditioned to watching them and appreciating them where you gotta fight extra hard to not have the audience because you're trying to win the audience to the movie at the same time that you're trying to show whatever moral dilemma is being positioned but we've seen it like a million times and every single thing that just like the form of a feature film is just sometimes sort of an endorsement even when you're actively trying to not make it an endorsement absolutely it's it's it's appealing to you and by doing so it makes it seem exciting that he made the decision in this movie clearly very purposefully to try to

avoid this conversation that we're having about Goodfellas by making it about journalists, by making it about effectively non-participants or sort of like external participants in the conflict. Right. But then he, even that, they are participants, and he juxtaposes them. Like, you know, Adam Neiman's review of the film points out like the very labored, like people shooting versus photographers shooting juxtaposition, which is right there. But to the film's credit, he is interrogating objectivity or even what they're doing or not doing and the usefulness of it in the entire portrayal. So you, you give it a B minus.

No, I think people should go see it. Like, and I definitely think you should see it in theaters. I would be amazed to like people watching at home without, you know, the sound mixing and everything. You're just going to be like,

wait, can we do justice for Kiki for a second? Not for the, it's she's, she's very, very good. But like the ending, when she, like when she actually actually dies I'm so pissed off and so this is this is a Amanda's

Kiki corner though like that's fine the movie needs a sacrifice I think they should kill more mad at the movie is because no but I was just like it's so Kaylee like what's this movie about they killed Kiki I I actually, honestly, I have my reverse take. Yeah. Go ahead. Cause you're going to say. Well,

they just, it's so labored also. Like they put, they throw Kaylee in the center and you know, what's coming in. Everyone in my theater was like, Oh no. And then you see like that,

that she's going to take the photo. I was. That's what I'm saying. That's what the movie wants. The movie wants you to go home. No, I know. I understand that,

but it's just like, what does that teach us about that character as a result? Like that she started to care. And so now she has to like die. Like, what is it? Like what? If you do this job,

you might die. Like you literally are putting your life on the line. She started to lose her fastball. Like, that was it, right? She's experiencing PTSD in the run up to the moment. And there's a fucking new version of her that's taking her over. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. That didn't seem that complicated. I did think it actually was like, I was like, he kind of, he kind of took a few miles per hour off right there because like, I was like, the rest of this movie, the violence is incredibly immediate.

You wanted her to take a headshot. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. I know. I actually, that would have been more upsetting. I agree.

Yeah. Why do you think he didn't do that? I had a similar thought where I was like, maybe she just survived. I think he thought maybe this is too fucking much. Well,

I also think, I was wondering whether there was supposed to be some sort of like, emotional payoff in that that I just like, straight up didn't feel. No, I also think I was wondering whether there was supposed to be some sort of like emotional payoff in that that I just like straight up didn't feel.

No, they fucking just keep going. That's what's great. Emotional payoff like that being like the conclusion of the movie her dying? Or of her story,

you know, and that character as opposed to like, yeah, these things are dangerous and you know. I thought it was just very clearly

like the handoff that like this work you can only do it for so long. Those two people jesse and ragnarok's characters in what i forget i don't remember uh like the names don't matter joel jesse and joel they see lee get shot in the head and they don't stop and say like oh no they keep going they're like we're so close to the story of a lifetime and the shot of a lifetime

we have to keep going that's so fucking dark to consider. And also, Jesse Caley takes the shot of her dying. And that's how you see her die. I think he really thinks, and most of the characters in his movies are just huge narcissists. Yeah. And I think he thinks these people who do this work are narcissistic. They're also very gifted and they do something that is important to our culture. But, you know, we know a lot of journalists. Some narcissists in this room right now. Are they with us right now? So I enjoyed that he was willing to be a little bit more

aggressive. I think he also might be banking on people's complicated relationship to journalists right now. You know, that there's a sense that like, not just that they're distrusted, but that a lot of people think this way about journalists. You know, that there's a kind of puffery to the work that they do, even if it is dangerous or if it is important. So I don't know. I thought all that worked.

The ending I thought was like, even for him, I was like, that's glib. That was really glib with the snapshot and the that'll do quote. I got a kick out of it. I can't. Are people going to walk out and be like, so fun, guys. What a fun night at the movies. I'm curious to see like what the reaction to this movie is beyond the screenings that we all went to. I think it's very cool and good for movies that we just had this conversation.

And I think it's like incredible that people will walk out and be like i fucking hated that what a glib asshole go back to england versus like that's right like we have lionized maggie haberman too much and now we need to like fucking reset our relationship to the press or something like there's gonna be like a whole variety and then there's gonna be be people who are choppoed out who are only cucks like this. And I like that too. Because sometimes

I get triggered by that but I'm like, no, this is great. This is great that there's so many different kind of ways you could look at this movie and be like,

that sucked. And here's why. And every reason is going to be different. But what you can't say is that this movie does not rock. This movie is like overwhelming.

And I think it's, we're better to have it than not have it. You think it's going to be successful? Absolutely not. No, not at all. I wonder. Guess what people don't want to see a movie about? Dudes getting hung at gas stations. It's supposed to do well this weekend,

but I do feel like it's one of those things where it's like, it made $26 million, but has a D cinema score you know because I do think people are going to walk out and be like ugh god

I feel like shit yeah also cinema score is only oriented around people's expectation of a movie and this movie

doesn't give you anything that you want when you're going into a movie called Civil War when I saw it he did a little presentation beforehand and the folks

from Rafe24 were like, you know, Alex Garland has been one of the central building blocks of this company and, you know, like a cornerstone of this company with, what was the first one? Ex Machina. And then Garland came out and he was just like, well, I have a cornerstone and now I have your heaven's gate. And he was just sort of joking.

But I think it this will probably eventually, like, there's going to be enough, like, you just have to go see it that probably it'll do pretty well. I don't know. Like, it'll do okay. I think just financially speaking. Does it have to make $150 million?

Worldwide, probably, to be a success. It's going to play on IMAX screens, though, so it's going to make more money. Yeah. Which is something that doesn't usually happen with movies like this. I'm interested to see the international reaction. Are they all just going to be like, this is great. The Americans are fucking idiots. They might. Yeah. They always really like very simplistic explanations of what's going on. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. Bobby, what is Gen Z going to think? I think they're going to hate it. Probably. Probably. Yeah. Because it's not explained. Does Bobby get to speak on behalf of Gen Z? Well, we know Bobby's not a member of Gen Z, but he's closer to Gen Z than we are. I'd like to firmly keep myself out of Gen Z.

Like I've made that a point on this show, you know, here in this workplace. No, I think they're going to hate it because it is not, they're going to hate it for a lot of the reasons that Amanda explained, which is funny because Amanda is obviously the Gen Z presence on the show. Yeah, that's right. What's up? The megaphone for Gen Z.

The name alone. Gen Z also loves Salt Burn, though, so, you know. We didn't spend, but Salt Burn was like camp and a vibe. This movie is the exact opposite of that. Totally. This movie has no vibe. This movie is vibe crushing. And that's why i enjoyed it it like

crushes your vibe and crushes your spirit and i'm like that actually made me feel something with the images and the sound and it was upsetting i felt i felt incredibly anxious did it make you while watching this movie not really yeah but i think that that is the main provocation that you guys did not hit on is just like quite literally the name you have set yourself up to provoke and if you do not put something in there that is that level of provocation then people are going to be mad about it but i think that that is honestly partially a viewer problem because like you should not go into a movie expecting it to have a certain type of politics until you see it movies are not like inherently political they often turn out to be political in the way that they are made and the ideas that they're communicating but like it doesn't have to

be a certain type of political i think that just because it was named civil war and because the the states texas and california were specifically dropped that's what it turned into and i'm like the most political person i'm like the most political person that i know like i try to read the leftist thing the leftist take on everything. And I went into this movie and I was like, I don't really care if this is like, this movie is leftist enough for me, you know,

or like this movie agrees with the reality of politics. It doesn't really matter. It's a movie. And I think it functions as like an interesting metaphor for the bigger, the budget something gets, the more apolitical it becomes. Even if you do have a provocative name on it. I think there is,

I probably should have asked a question about that when I spoke to Alex, but there is definitely a sense that even though, look, it's a fascist president who disbanded the FBI, that's a direct reference to Donald Trump's feelings about the FBI. There are enough things in the movie where you can get a pretty clear sense of what side is responsible for triggering this civil war. But I do wonder if there is a withholding of a lot of information and a portrayal of the events in an attempt to do what Chris is saying, to do the like both sides thing, where some people will love that they think it's about these people and other people will think they'll love that they think it's about these people and that that is a there's something kind of crassly commercial about that decision i don't know if i totally buy into that because this guy made men like is he really thinking about like

the commercial prospects but he also wrote 28 days later he did he did like i think in some ways like alex garland i have historically thought of him as the elevator pitch god of all time. If you tell me the start of an Alex Garland, and then as he's gotten into more of a filmmaker as a director, I think his movies have become a little bit more hard to wrap your arms around. And even something cool like Natalie Portman leads a team of scientists into what might be an alien invasion of the Everglades. I'm like, okay. And I read Annihilation and I know those books. I know what they're about and everything.

But like they have become more and more difficult. Also Natalie Portman, you know. There's a block for you. It's a tough one for you. But it's like, I don't know. I think that he has, I'm glad that there are provocateur filmmakers, even if I don't feel, like, provoked by them.

Right. Yeah, okay. I mean, I think that's exactly what Bobby is saying, which is, like, if you don't take the bait, this is a great movie. Like, if you just resist the bait, this is an awesome experience. I see fucking 200 movies a year in movie theaters.

Most movies are terrible. It's an amazing movie to watch. But I don't know. The other version of this movie where he does delineate it, that movie sucks. That movie sucks. Totally. But there's a difference. If Amy Coney Barrett just voted against this, who gives a shit?

There's taking the bait and there's like thinking you know and being engaged in a movie while you're watching it and like i just was sitting there watching and being like i am fucking terrified and jumping in my seat and having very strong emotional in the moment reactions to what is truly amazing filmmaking and i also have the brain space to be like okay but i don't so what let's go why are they doing this yes and like what is truly amazing filmmaking. And I also have the brain space to be like, okay, but I don't... So, what's go... Why are they doing this? Yes.

And like, what is it? And it's like, oh, photographers are bad? I'll tell you what. Having talked through this, I think this is like ultimately really where he's at. I think what he's trying to say is that because of the modern conveniences or inconveniences, however you think about them,

the way that people communicate with each other now as opposed to 20 years ago or 100 years ago, we have lost sight of the fact that we're not as different from one another as we think we are and that we have used ideas, ideas in air quotes, to convince ourselves that there are heroes and villains in our lives, that we are oppositional by nature, and that that oppositional nature can very quickly lead to this. I think that the California and Texas thing is a particular provocation inside of that, which is that he is insisting from his point of view that California and Texas are actually not so different, that they are Western expansionist states that have always had an independent spirit, that have always thought a little bit differently about the way that they exist inside of america i'm just laughing because i'm imagining gavin newsom and greg abbott doing the predator this movie takes place in the in the event where

like those people are dead or like overthrown yeah that's what i'm saying it's like we don't even know whether it's like the actual state organizations or it's like dream a little bigger man military like in you you know insane gun people from each place have joined together and gotten the cash of like you know

but if he had set this movie a hundred years in the future or a hundred years in the past nobody would give a shit I totally agree and if it was entitled Civil War

and these ideas people would be like this reflects our current moment we're thinking too hard about like what is this how would this actually be it's a fucking movie it doesn't matter

how it would actually be. The only thing that is, that is literally the thing that I think is unnerving our expectation of the film is that it is set in what looks like 2024. She's just saying, I think if I can speak for you. I'm not saying you're wrong

by the way. You were like, I walked in thinking we were going to get Killers of the Flower Moon and you didn't tell me it was going to be I Am Legend. You know what I mean? Or whatever. You know, like that it was going to be Book of Eli, but set in the present tense. I'm not supposed to worry about how this happened. Right, right, right, right.

Again, it's an expectation game. This is true of every movie. We just talked about CinemaCon for 40 minutes. The movie also does give you enough to ask the questions, you know, and that is provocation. And so as I guess if the provocation of this movie is to to think and to not think that it makes sense, then I consider me provoked. I think the movie is intellectually dumb and cinematically smart. Amen, Bobby. I wouldn't say that.

I don't think that the two can be separated. I yeah, I think that they're inherently connected. I think whether or not you ultimately like the ideas that he landed on. I think John Wick is intellectually dumb and cinematically smart. I think this movie is saying some things that maybe it doesn't want to put its full chest behind yet. Oh. And so I think it kind of, it pulls a punch here and there

where it says like, oh, we're just going to make this like a normal movie. But like, I think some of the things he's saying are actually quite button pushy. And yet he doesn't quite come out and say, I'm pushing the button. Yeah, I think one of those things

is that like, maybe the media is bad. Dangerous. Yeah. At a minimum. Yeah. And I think it's also, and this movie is dangerous,

but like, but it doesn't go there. You know what? forget about like my endorsement of this idea but but i don't mean that like i don't think the movie is dangerous like the movie is engaging with the idea of making a war movie and what it means to make a movie and it's like very self-conscious but like but it doesn't put its full chest behind it as well there's there's one more thing though that is like a little hard for people to wrap their heads around right now. And I'm not saying that I have wrapped my head around it. And I'm not saying I'm not just like a sad, you know, neoliberal living on California. Like, of course I am. Like how pathetic to be 40 and working at a tech company, you know, like I, I fully,

I am fully incriminated in this. I think he legitimately is like, Republicans and Democrats are not that different. And they have convinced themselves that they're in a holy war. And if this continues, it's going to be big trouble. And he's like, I don't think that they're different. And he's kind of onto something there.

I'm not saying that, like it feels a little bit too much like, like RFK Jr. Jr. You know, not saying that like, it feels a little bit too much like, um, uh, like RFK junior, junior, you know, like some saying something like that. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to confuse his political stance, but I think that that concept of like, we've convinced we have gamified our lives every day by using social media or cable news or all of these inputs that are convincing us that we're in like a death struggle. And that actually isn't true.

And if you consistently think that that is how the world is, and I'm not saying I don't, I might feel this way. But his point of view is, if we keep doing this, we could go to this. Would it be exactly in the way that I'm suggesting it plays out? No, it's not a documentary. It's not even a predictive film in that specific way.

But if you had watched Ex Machina and talked about the potential for AI when that movie came out, you'd be like, this is like 40 years from now. This is 50 years from now. That movie's 10 years old. Not even 10 years old. I know.

That movie also has a tremendous amount of talking. And it is primarily people talking about the ideas. So, you know, and teasing them out. And in really beautiful rooms with some dancing I think Ex Machina is a more successful movie than Civil War

I'm not making I think that's a great film I think Civil War is a good movie but look at this we haven't had a conversation like this on the show in a year

how long so that's success to me there you go we did it we did it Joe this has been a long conversation is this going to be a three-hour pod? Could be.

Not quite. Close. No. Okay. Should we go to my conversation with Alex Garland? Yeah, let's do it. Wait, one of my favorite filmmakers. Hi, Alex. How are you?

I'm very well. I wish I was there in person instead of, again, last time we spoke was over a sort of Zoom link type thing. It was. That was in a harried pandemic era. We're in a slightly different era. You've got a big studio movie coming out now. Did you ever think you would be making a big movie like this? Well, to be honest, I've always worked in sort of indie zone pretty much you know uh but i always wanted i sort of would have fancies about

you know something bigger scale and how to achieve that and um uh so in a way yes you know the thing about movies is they have this it's it's a very it's a very sort of big graph from the very small to really dizzyingly massive. And you can't help noticing and being aware of what people are doing at these massive scales and knowing you can't capture that kind of imagery. So in a way, yeah. So I read that you first started writing Civil War in 2018.

2020. 2020? Okay. Yeah. I mean, sort of. Sorry, I know what you mean. There was a kind of early semi-version, but structurally very different. But yes, kind of 2018.

Sorry, I see what you mean. Well, so because of that I'm curious was there a particular whether it be a world event or a personal event or do you remember what happened right before this kind of concept started striking you as something you wanted to explore I mean so if if I go back to if I go back to 2018, then it's like evolution rather than when did I write the script. But that's fair enough because scripts come out of some organic state,

so there probably was something that preceded it in some ways. I started writing a, I planned it as a TV show, actually, based around the idea of civil disobedience back in 2018. And then, you know, various things happened. Some of them are to do with life, absolutely. Some of them are to do with the world and what I'm reacting to as a writer, I suppose.

And by the time 2020 rolled around, this is like June of 2020, that idea no longer felt valid to me. And the trace DNA of it ended up in Civil War, which I wrote in June of 2020. Every time we've talked, you've talked about how you try to make something that feels somewhat significantly different from the last thing that you've done. The last film that you made, Men, was this kind of confined, psychological, almost mythic story. This is a very grounded war movie with a very kind of practical experience of war. But it also feels like, just like a very kind of desperate expression of anxiety, if I'm being honest with you.

And I felt very anxious watching the movie. I mean, is that accurate about how you were feeling when you were putting it together? I guess, yes. I would say, and this is a, and this is semantics probably, but anxiety is probably the motivator, but the feeling in it was closer to anger, I would say. But yeah, sure.

As what it comes out of, then yes, anxiety, sure. What were you angry about? The same stuff I was anxious about. It was two sets of things, but they're not unrelated. One of them is to do with journalism, and the other one is to do with a kind of ambient condition. The ambient condition is division, polarization, populist politics, where that comes from, where that leads, what lies behind it, and so on. And then journalism, which has and has done for a while now,

also has a kind of a blurred crossover into a kind of social journalism that you might find in social media. And the form that journalism has found itself in, where it exists. And stepping back from that, so what you have is a divided state, by which I mean condition, not just nation state, but it could be nation state, is in your country, is in my country, is in many countries around the world. But also then the great lim also then the great the great limiter the great

controller you know being what gets called the fourth estate it journalists journalism not having the traction and the power and the trust that it used to have and then perceiving journalism as something good not not just good but necessary um uh when i i told a friend of mine who works in film i wanted to write a movie with journalists as the heroes and they said don't um everyone hates journalists and that really struck me because because we can't hate journalists because we need journalists. It's not that it's nice to have them or it's interesting to have them. Journalism, trusted journalism, has a societal function,

which is a really important one. It's exactly like the executive or the legislature or the judiciary. It's like that. It's a proper, serious requirement. Can I ask you some questions about that? Because I am, or at least used to be a journalist. And invariably, when people make movies about journalists, especially when they're heroes, those films often get celebrated, sometimes over-celebrated. On the other hand, I detect in your movie, on the one hand, like a huge admiration for the courage and the determination to get the story and to accurately convey what's happening, especially in a world like in your world,

which is kind of crumbling around us. But then also maybe a little bit of dismay or skepticism or concern about the kind of egomania and drive and just the weirdness of the urge to get the story that I think emanates in a lot of journalists. There's a lot of ego that goes into being a journalist at times. Is that fair to characterize it that way? Well, it's not exactly what I was shooting for. You're right about the admiration. Journalists as reporters, so that is to say people who deliberately remove bias from their reporting, I really do admire, yeah. And sometimes just in a very literal way, I could admire what they do generally because we need it, but also it sometimes requires huge amounts of courage and also intelligence in investigation and thoughtfulness and passing out why things are the way they are and all that. So, yeah, I absolutely admire that.

I separate that from the individual. So the individual might be conflicted, compromised, have mixed motivations. And I grew up around journalists. And I grew up in a, I'm 53, I grew up in a period where journalism was different to how it is now. And I grew up around journalists because my dad was a cartoonist. He worked on a newspaper and his friends and so the people around the kitchen table and listening to my dad. And I'm sure inheriting my dad's love of his colleagues became my, you know, five-year-old admiration for these people. I'm sure that's true.

But some of them were difficult, spiky, abrasive. But under that, there was a funny kind of purity they had to do with their role. So they could be compromised as individuals, but be very, very serious about their job. Sardonic and sarcastic and serious-minded at the same time. So it's more to do with that. That's not a criticism.

It's more like saying you're allowed to be that. And it was a celebration of it. I tried in the film to take from that and make that the method of delivery in the movie itself. So the movie is in some respects non-biased in as much as it just offers up events during a window of time. But it's not sticking flags all over the place saying, here is the intention, here's the opinion, here's the,

all the sort of reassurances that audiences sometimes want, but also filmmakers sometimes want in order that they reassure themselves about themselves or, you know, as well as reassuring the audience and so that the choir they're preaching to knows, yes, we're all in the same choir or whatever it is. So I was trying to remove that and be like those older forms of journalists. I'd love to talk to you more about that because I have some questions about it. But I was wondering, do you think that you're a very good interview because you spent your time growing up around journalists and so you feel comfortable with them? I don't feel comfortable with them at all because I know how dangerous they are. I know how lethally dangerous they are. You're getting

a little bit of that this week, I feel like. Oh, I mean, that's always been the case. Journalists have always been tricky because they're looking for a story, and very often they're pretty sharp and pretty smart, and they're talking to people like me in this instance who are trying to disguise things about themselves and present an image which is how they would like to be seen or they're protecting the project that they're promoting, or whatever it is. And the journalist is looking for the cracks in the armour that's being... So there's always been a tension there, I think.

People could get skewered by journalists when I was a kid, just as they can now. The real thing is more to do with what the dominant tone is within journalism. So where these days, I would say in the old days, large journalistic institutions really saw themselves as having a function that related to systems of checks and balances. A civic responsibility. They had a civic responsibility.

And I think various things happened, some of them external, like politicians going out of their way to undermine journalism and journalists for their own reasons and the advent of a certain kind of tabloid journalism and the sort of crack cocaine type moorishness of tabloid journalism and all that kind of stuff. And not to mention social media and the semi-democratization of journalism or semi-fascism of it, depending on how you would choose to look at it. But I suspect at the core of it, there is also, there was a deliberate rejection and abandoning of the concept of being unbiased because large journalistic institutions became

governed by advertising streams. Uh, they needed to hold an audience. They needed to maintain an audience at a particular level, that became a process of reassuring an audience and giving them stories in the way they wanted to receive them and of the sort they wanted to receive. So not contradicting the biases of their audience in order to hold on to them. And in other words, becoming propagandists more than journalists. As soon as that happens, all sorts of weird stuff starts to happen. Propaganda is an odd thing. The receiver of propaganda can both feel pleased to get the propaganda

and also know it's propaganda at the same time. What it starts feeding is not something trustworthy, but something emotional. And anyone outside the propaganda bubble does not trust that organization. And conversely, the people within it doesn't trust the other organization. And you get a generalized collapse of trust in news. And it is generalized. There's great journalists out there doing great work, but they don't have the traction they used to have because journalism has become less trusted.

This correlates closely to the thing I'm most interested to talk to you about with this film. So- Cool. Is that too long? No. Too rambling? No, not at all.

Okay, good. It's actually very, very important. I ask about journalism in part because, you know, almost all of the other films that you've written have had a kind of orientation in science or technology, and you're well known for that, for working in science fiction. And films like that necessitate a kind of exposition as communication

that feels vital to storytelling. And I love the way you write about those things. I love the way that you reveal character in those things. And even in a film like Men, which is that less so, you could chalk it up to, well, it's a psychological exploration. It's happening in someone's head. Yada, yada, yada. This is a film

that is the opposite of that in many, yada. This is a film that is the opposite of that in many, many ways. It is a really like a very down and dirty, practical, muscular war film that has a lot of ideas in it, but so many of the grounding concepts for why we are in the state we are in go unexplained. And we live in a time where we expect, in part because of that journalism dynamic that you're describing right now, we demand answers and we demand a kind of lack of a gray line. We want you're either on this side or that side. You're either a demagogue or you're a fighter for democracy. You're either a Republican or you're a Democrat.

And the movie I can see is already flummoxing people because it's not giving them this binary that they feel so comfortable with now obviously this feels like a very purposeful choice but i wanted to hear you talk about the decision to make the movie this way that's a uh i mean if i gave a rambling answer before that that would be as nothing compared to the answer to what you just said. Sort of break it into bits. That was an intention, I guess. I mean, one thing is I just don't really see the world in very binary terms. I do think there's such things as right and wrong, but I'm quite careful on a personal level

about what I choose to include in those brackets. And I also think sometimes there's right and wrong ideas, but it doesn't necessarily follow that someone holding that idea is good or bad. Like if you see what I mean. So I separate some like there can be all sorts of reasons why someone holds a belief and to write them off as good or bad does not follow naturally for me from some of the things they believe they would I'd also say that's a sliding scale so there would be cases where the

two correlate perfectly but the question is at what point down the sliding scale does that correlation stop being gray and start being black and white um uh i began to feel but i don't think i don't it seems silly to say i too much uh because i think this is generally felt um that there are two concurrent things happening where discourse is concerned one of them is to do with how individuals react to each other on a one-to-one basis. And the other is the effect of that same conversation when it's taken into a public discourse space and where that point of decoherence between those two and trying to take some of the grammar of the one-to-one discourse and put it into the public space discourse.

It then extends out into a whole bunch of other things to me to do with definitions, what one means by, say, left or right and what an individual means by, say, left or right, and what an individual means by that, and where one ascribes those labels and why one ascribes those labels and what comes with those labels. And so it gets very, very broad. I'd also just slightly take issue

with what is seen as an absence of something. I think there is not an absence. I think there's a contained thing. It's more in the method of delivery. The absence is the absence of flags. The absence is the absence of me as a storyteller or a filmmaker making it very, very clear that everyone knows what is intended by this.

That's a separate thing to do with the contemporary grammar of cinema. Just as an example, I could give various examples, but one of them would be in the presentation of the president. The president is a fascist. They're attacking the citizens of their own country. They've dismantled one of the legal institutions that could threaten them. They've smashed the constitution. They've shown disregard to the constitution by staying into a third term. Now then things flow from that that some people find

confusing. Let's say Texas and California being on the same side. Yeah, I could stick flags in that. I could make it super clear or I could do it by inference. And the inference would be, presumably, the people of those states have felt that their polarized political position is less important than a fascist president. And so they've come to agreement over that issue. Now, is that an argument contained or not contained? Does that exist in the film or not exist in the film? I'd say it does exist in the film because I haven't, in order to make the argument, I haven't pulled on anything that doesn't actually exist in the narrative. It's more to do with whether people feel that an argument is being made.

Now, then that becomes a secondary question, which is about what is discourse? What is conversation? If I was going to reduce my hope with this film, it would be make something compelling, make something engaging. And at the end of that compelling and engaging process, a conversation exists.

That's it. So all the decisions, okay, so we did get into the rambling answer that I was afraid I'd get into. No, you didn't. Because I have a lot of follow-ups to that because this is really, really important. As a writer, when you're

making those decisions to say maybe withhold what could be those flags as you describe them, or maybe they don't even occur to you, you could tell me, but if you decide to withhold them, in your mind you have a rationale for why things are the way that they are, but you're not going to put that in a character's mouth or a newscaster's mouth that conveys information.

Do you view that in a character's mouth or in a newscaster's mouth that conveys information. Do you view that as a provocation for the audience to then drive discussion around a film? Yes, as long as provocation is not antagonism. It's the other meaning of provocation, which is just if somebody says something to me that makes me consider it for a second. That's a form of provocation. I'm being careful about the usage of words because it could then be misconstrued as I am trying to be provocative and antagonistic. Actually, my goal is exactly the opposite.

I'm a centrist. I'm a centrist. I'm a centrist. When I talk about things like left and right, I am talking about things like whether you believe in a free market or not. I'm talking about what you think taxation levels should be at. And I see no reason why with those sorts of definitions people can't freely talk and respect each other. and I see no reason why with those sorts of definitions, people can't freely talk and respect each other.

And so, so underneath all of this, there's, yes, there's a bit of kind of conversational center ism, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

I think that's one of the things that I responded to is the lack of over explanation around some of the concepts, but nevertheless, I'm curious, like, but just to say, Sean, just for what it's worth.

I also had another principle, which is that I think those things did not need to be explained because I don't meet people and I meet all sorts of different kinds of people who really need that explained. Right. Well, I think that that's something. In reality. Did you anticipate this? This reaction?

I wonder. Yeah, kind of. Okay. this reaction? I wonder. Yeah, kind of. But then there would be a provocation in that because what I'm not interested in and the people I do feel oppositional to, me personally, I feel oppositional to them, is people who happily sit within an accusatory polarized state. And if I'm pissing those people off, I'm okay with it. Because I'm not comfortable with the way public discourse is happening. And in some ways, I do differentiate between groups, because it's correct to differentiate

between them. In other ways, I don't. Where the polarization is actually inflammatory. If whatever issue it is that you're concerned about, if your anger is making that worse, then I feel I want to pull back. Yeah, it does. It's a complicated topic because the film feels in many ways

like a discussion of what hardlining can get you, that it can lead to a kind of world on the brink, civil war. Sure. But on the other hand, in the face of injustice, sometimes there's no other answer but to be a hardliner. You know what I mean? So it's a complex idea. It's a complex idea, but it does have quite simple stuff behind it.

I think one of them is that extremism encourages extremism, and extremism is dangerous. It's not abstractly dangerous. It's not like a sort of fanciful position that sometimes, yeah, maybe that might be in a really concrete, serious way, and also in a radiating way, it's a serious problem so uh partly because all nations are interrelated and and the position one place takes will in an ecosystem way then affect the position another place takes and uh um i mean this gets very sort of philosophical, I suppose,

but underneath it all is an extreme distrust and concern of comfort within extremism because on a personal level, I think it leads to real world horror. So I think one of the reasons why this reaction has come about is because in films that are both apocalyptic and even about civil war, we expect a kind of over-explained clarity in the storytelling.

Right. But I'm curious. Go ahead. And is it, well, do you feel, this is a rhetorical question, I think it's a rhetorical question, do you feel like there isn't enough strong assertions being made at the moment like it is there is what

we need is an increase in these strong assertions or in the world at large or in your film in the world at large because the film the film is being dropped into the world at large right well unfortunately for me to answer your rhetorical question, I'm a podcaster, so I have to make strong assertions every day. That's just something I do. I do want to ask you about the filmmaking because I do think it is an incredibly bracing and powerful physical act of moviemaking too. And I felt very viscerally locked into the story. And it feels very different from everything that you've done before and it sounds like it was hard um could you tell me maybe about the production it was hard i i mean i think in one way or another all films are going to be difficult to make that you know they're they're complicated and unwieldy and there's so many different factors um the thing that is often the hardest bit of the production is how to get it supported, how to get it financed. And that, in this case, turned out to be easy. It was A24 financed it just immediately on the basis of the script.

We weren't able to make it for a couple of years because of COVID restrictions and some of the requirements. When it then came to the shooting of it, it was logistically difficult. A film like Ex Machina, you basically have four people in a house. I mean, there's more people, but for the most part, there's four people in a house and um you're repeating the same location again and again you get to know the location really well you get to realize oh there's a shot we could have got there it doesn't matter we'll get it tomorrow or we'll get it next week or you you just it's just contained um in a film like Civil War you are in whatever place you are in for sometimes one day sometimes two

rarely more than two and so the circus is shifting all the lessons you learned the day before don't apply anymore and as well as that I'm in some ways outside of my skill set my skill set would probably be making something really really small and this is a lot bigger so I'm having to which I always do but I'm having to rely heavily on people like a very experienced stunt coordinator in order to help me through the construction of a sequence

and what is possible, what is not possible, what is sensible, what is not sensible. And there was a lot of that on this film. Also some very, very brilliant people who then did what you hope, which is in the sort of delegation, take accountability, get the tone and deliver.

In terms of the structure, I had a question for you as I was re-watching some of your movies. The films seem to have, whether this is purposeful or not, you can tell me, a kind of schematic episodic approach where say in Ex Machina,

it's a series of encounters with the AI in Annihilation, it's number of days inside the Shimmer where you're sort of going through this experience. Even in Devs, it's an episodic TV show. This is a road movie and kind of each episode is a new city, a new day, a new stop on the tour. Do you think structurally like that or is that just something that comes as you're developing the story? I think probably I do think structurally, but actually in truth, it comes from something else, which is something unthought through and just the natural way I tend to write. Certainly, the film I most admired last year was Anatomy of a Fall, which is not episodic in the way you've just described.

And I think all of the things you've just described, the things I've written, are like that. And I take your point and agree with it. One of the reasons, I mean, I love that film for lots of different reasons, but one of them was to do with simply watching it thinking, I don't know how they did that. I couldn't do that. I wish I could do that.

I'm a little bit bound, as I guess everybody is, but I'm definitely bound by my own limitations. And I would love to try to write like that. It just is beyond me. Interesting. So I have to ask you about the music. i feel like i always ask you about the music the music is particularly powerful here you know you're reuniting with your composers but the song choices um are bracing there i think that the suicide and esg and even the the sturgill simpson makes sense like capturing a kind of

panorama of collapse. I got that. The De La Soul sequence is my favorite movie scene of the year by far. I almost jumped out of my seat. Oh, wow. Oh, gosh. So can you explain the thinking behind that sequence and then why you chose that song to score it? The thinking behind the sequence came out of something that I tried to factor into a schedule,

which is room for invention or uncertainty. So I do not arrive on a day with shot lists. I know what we're supposed to achieve that day, but I haven't got a clear idea in a way about how to achieve it. I do that for all sorts of reasons. A lot of it actually to do with actors and not wanting to tell them to stand in a particular way and wanting to see what they do.

In the lunch break that day, I was sat on a slope overlooking the area where that scene is shot. And a sequence just started to form in my mind, which had a relation to where the different journalists were in terms of their own journey in this larger journey. And also something about conflict, which is to do with executions summary executions and it just started piecing itself together and a language started to piece itself together which was a sequence of shots that did not have dialogue basically at that point

so I we then go about shooting that finding the angles putting it together and then it leaves an open question which i'm aware on the day but i don't have an answer to which is what this this is going to require music or sound design of some sort otherwise it would just all be silent which i guess is also an option but I don't know what that is. Then in the edit, it's a similar thing, which is the discovery on the day was here is a sequence that feels right, that is not pre-prescribed, but feels right. And now what does one put with that? Then another whole bunch of factors come in. What are you trying to convey? What do you want people to think? Actually, relating to what you said before, where you said you're a podcaster and you trying to convey what do you want people to think uh actually relating to what you

said before where you said you're a podcaster and you have to be assertive every day i'm not arguing anywhere in this for not being assertive it's more to do with asserting where and how but being assertive is really important actually uh so in this instance one of the assertions is it's a war movie that is to say it's a movie with war and it's a movie and movies have weird superpowers to do with what happens when you put violence and music and careful framing together now if you want it to be an anti-war movie the the choice of music becomes incredibly important not just the choice of music becomes incredibly important. Not just the choice of music, but how it comes in, what its tempo is. Is it abrasive? Is it hypnotic? Is it seductive? Good counter example would be opening sequence, very, very brilliant bit of cinema, Apocalypse Now

opens with music and images of napalm and palm trees and ceiling fans and so on with the end. And there that is seductive and darkly romantic, which is clearly intention and executed sublimely. This is different. If this at this moment was not abrasive and not confrontational and in fact not assertive, as you put, it would start to undermine the film's own intention because this cannot inadvertently be a pro-war movie, if you see what I mean. Not that the counter to an anti-war movie is pro-war, but I should phrase it differently. It should to an anti-war movie is pro-war but but in i should phrase it differently it should be an anti-war movie so then the music choice and the arrival is the last part of that and becomes very important and that was a lot of discussion a lot of different tracks tried

a lot of me jeff and ben the composers jake the editor testing each other. Can we go this far? Should we go even further? That kind of thing. It's incredibly effective. I mean, I love that song, so it's weird that that is an attempt to clearly clarify it as an anti-war movie, but in a way, it's because of its absurdity and the grotesquery. It works. It's the sort of madness

of it, partly. Yeah, I get it. So, you know, a lot of talk about how you're um not going to make any more films i think you might have said this to me last time we spoke that you were already feeling this way uh is it what out of proportion what's going on it's interesting i think it is like a tiny tiny example of a broader issue to do with the difference between discourse between two people in the same space or virtual same space and something more ambient. Yeah, you got caught in the headlines.

You were headline snapshotted. People were like, oh, this guy, he's quitting. But I don't quite understand the correlation between A and B, because the A statement I made was, I'm going to stop directing for the foreseeable future. Now, that is not the same just as a statement. It's not the same as retiring. It's just a different statement.

And there wasn't really any ambiguity in those lines in that interview. That's what I said. So somewhere in that, someone else is inserting another piece of meaning, which is not contained in the original words. That aside, I just dispute the terms because within it I said I'm going to screenwrite I'm going to be writing I see screenwriting as being a fundamental part of filmmaking um likewise being a director of photography or editing or acting or any number of different things uh there is a weird kind of we've spoken before about this I don't put the director in the same deified position that lots of other people i think they're just another one of the technicians involving in involved in making a movie um so i don't place the importance on that statement that it might appear to have. Bottom line, I had had enough of that role for the foreseeable future.

I had something I wanted to do, which is I wanted to write for other people. There was a director I used to work with a long time ago, Danny Boyle. I wanted to write something for him. He wanted me to write something for him. That wanted me to write something for him. That was an agreement between the two of us. There's another script I want to write. There was a very interesting guy called Ray Mendoza, who I worked with on Civil War and who I like very, very much and respect very much. He and I decided to work on a film together. We both had our own reasons to do it, and we're working on that. And I personally see my role in that as supportive of Ray and trying to facilitate what Ray wants to do. Very happy to do that. Rather honored to do it, actually.

That's not a rejection of cinema. That's just doing a different job within a broad industry. Is that fair? Of course it is. I'll be sad if you don't make any more films in the same way, but I completely understand. I have a multiple choice question for you.

What has been the most rewarding primary role for you as a creative person? Novelist? Screenwriter? Video game creator, TV showrunner, or director? Screenwriter. So that explains it.

Yeah, I'm a writer. I mean, that's my job. I think directing is a very interesting job, and it has all sorts of good things about it, all sorts of rewards. But in terms of how I conceptualize myself, I conceptualize myself as a writer, definitely. If you only have these four films,

or maybe the fifth if you're working on the film with Ray, and that is your filmography as a director, are you content with that? Yeah, totally. No, more than content. I've been incredibly lucky. I mean, really incredibly lucky. If I abstract

myself, which actually I do, in a funny way, I feel very little personal connection to my working life. It's like someone else does it or i i say it's hard to explain um but if i look at the films ex machina annihilation men civil war they're quite and devs as a as a tv show they're quite odd projects to have been permitted to make.

I'm lucky, very, very lucky that I was permitted to make these projects. Ex Machina, tiny, cerebral, thoughtful, little contained movie, then with, not me doing it, but with this very beautiful and sort of muscular bit of visual effects at the heart of it, sort of bewitching bit of visual effects, and the subject matter, the means of execution, the resources I was given to do it,

I just feel very lucky, actually. I have a lot of thoughts about that. Maybe another time we can talk about it, because of how people thought that the film maybe now feels quite prescient, but in a way, it's going to feel dated in five years because of the way that we engaged with that idea, but I'll save

that for another day. Last question for you. Do you feel any pressure about this movie? Because there's some discourse about the studio and the chance that they're taking. This is a big film for them. This is, of course, your biggest film.

Box office and reviews and already the anxiety of the discourse around this movie. Do you feel any of that stuff? Yes. Yeah, I do. I definitely do. I always do. I would say I feel it acutely. It actually is a counter, or not a counter, but a sort of addenda or something to the thing I just said.

If I've been lucky, within that luck comes obligation and responsibility for the people that have helped this unusual or spiky or difficult project. I'm surrounded by people as. They as individuals are taking a risk and I need to respect that and take that seriously and take on the obligation. So do I care about the life of the thing and the way their work is received and treated. In the case of an actor, there's this act of faith involved, which is, will in the edit, the editor and I do justice to their hard work and the risks they've taken to the financiers, to the director of photography, just everybody. Yeah. So is there a lot of pressure on it?

Yeah, there's an absolutely massive amount of pressure. I wish you well. I thought it was an exceptional movie, and it's kind of heartbreaking to imagine you're not going to try to make something even bigger than this next. So I'm mad at you for not doing that, Alex. You're very kind.

You've been kind to me over a period of years in conversations, so thank you. Lovely to chat with you. Thank you again, Alex. Congrats on the movie. All right. Okay. Take care. Thank you to Alex Garland. Thank you to Chris Ryan. Thank you to Amanda, of course. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. We'll be back next week with probably another long pod. Are you hiding the fact that I'm on the 99 draft?

No. Okay. Did I hide it? I think I got some messages that were like, damn dog, are you not on the 99 draft? He's on every draft.

I would never do a draft without you. I would never do a draft without either one of you. I hope not. So yeah, no, you're on it. 1999,

mega movie draft. Seven drafters. The Howie Roseman and Ryan Poles of drafting, you know, of movie drafts. We almost got in a car wreck on our most recents. The Howie Roseman and Ryan Poles of drafting, you know, of movie drafts. We almost got in a car wreck on our most recent

family vacation because Howie traded someone who is definitely reported to be the problem. Hassan Reddick is the problem? Gosh, I hope he doesn't

poison the Jets. I was excited about that. I want to know what Aaron Rodgers thinks of Civil War. Wow. Coming up next week, Aaron Rodgers and I

sit down for another three-hour pod coming your way. All right. We'll see you next week.