The Big Picture - ‘Cruella’ and the Emma Stone Hall of Fame. Plus: The Future of James Bond

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

Sean and Amanda dive into the news that Amazon has acquired the historic Hollywood studio MGM, what it means for the streaming wars, the future of James Bond, and more (0:21). Then they discuss the new Oscars date and how the awards’ theater requirements continue to evolve (29:30). Finally, they review the new Disney Emma Stone vehicle ‘Cruella’ and build a Hall of Fame for Stone (52:39). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join author and former Vibe editor-in-chief Danielle Smith and Black Girl Songbook as she celebrates and uplifts the talent of Black women in the music industry. Tune in for in-depth discussions with your favorite songwriters, producers, and artists, as well as anecdotes from Danielle. Plus, you'll hear the songs of Black women who changed the landscape of American music forever. Check out Black Girl Songbook exclusively on Spotify. Oh, Pongo. It's her. It's that devil woman. Oh, must be Cruella, your dearly devoted old schoolmate. Cruella DeVille. That's it. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Cruella DeVille. That's it. Pitchell or DeVille, we'll take a closer look at the career of the actress we deemed our number one actor under 35 back in March of 2020.

But before we get there, there is a trundle of movie news in the world. Amanda, I think we have to open with Amazon's acquisition of MGM for $8.45 billion. This is a massive piece of news in the movie industry. What do you think this means for us, consumers, the world that is interested in movies, perhaps James Bond fans? You just asked me all the questions at once. You're just like, answer everything. And then you just cut off me making like a James Bond gets two-day shipping joke, which is like where we got to start. No, I mean, this had been rumored for a while, both in the specific sense of like for the last couple of weeks of Amazon courting MGM. MGM being on sale has been rumored

in various iterations for months, if not years, they got some money problems. And in the larger sense of mergers and acquisitions and consolidation and everybody trying to join together, make their own kind of Avengers in order to fight Netflix and Apple and all the people with money. This had been coming for a long time. So there are a lot of things to unpack in it in terms of what it means for James Bond,

in terms of what it means for theaters, in terms of what it means for Amazon, all of these things. But it was expected, right? Yeah, I think it was fairly predictable. It seemed like last year there was a lot of conversation around MGM as a potential acquisition for Apple. As Apple was starting to build out its library to build its streaming service, Amazon Prime has been an interesting streaming service. It's obviously very much a lost leader at the moment, the Amazon Prime video been an interesting streaming service. It's obviously very much a loss leader at the moment, the Amazon Prime video portion relative to the rest of Amazon's business. And it kind of feels like it's been lapped a little bit by Netflix and now by Disney Plus

in terms of its provenance as a streaming power. And even though it got a pretty early head start on a lot of those other companies, so they needed to make a move of some kind. I guess this was one of the few moves on the chessboard that they could make. And the announcement and the conversation around it thus far has been pretty interesting because Jeff Bezos spoke about the acquisition and cited the MGM films and franchises over the years as a big reason for doing this.

He talked about Bond, of course. He also cited things like Thelma and Louise and Raging Bull and Robocop and The Handmaid's Tale and Fargo. And he cited them not because those are movies that he loves. He cited them because they're potential spinoff properties. They're something, they're IP to evolve and to create new content out of. And that fits squarely into the crisis of conversation that we've been having around movies over the last five years or so, which is that, you know, the idea of Thelma and

Louise as a piece of property that you can then develop into a TV series is sort of, you know, I don't know if it's a massive problem of Hollywood, but it is certainly a clarifying note about what people think Hollywood should be doing right now. Sort of. I mean, why do we have to single out Thelma and Louise? Listen, if they make Thelma and Louise this sequel, and they crawl up the cliff, and then surprise, have another life, that's a problem. That's just bad storytelling.

Don't do that. But in a lot of ways, this is just a confirmation of a strategy that we are familiar with and expect. And on this show, quite frankly, Sean Fantasy, celebrate a lot, or at least you do, in terms of things we like being made and spin off. And if we don't have a problem with it, with Star Wars and Marvel, then I don't have a problem with it if they can come up with a creative solution for Thelma and Louise, which isn't like Thelmet and Louisette. You know, like Thelma and Louise, which isn't like Thelmet and Louisette, you know, like Thelma and Louise babies. I don't know. Like, do they want to give me like Brad Pitt's or character origins?

Sure. Like, but I like that universe and that's just, it's the world we live in now. Is that a bummer when you think about all of of the creative original movies that you and I like that we would like to see? Totally. But is this the deal that is crowding them all out? Is the Thelma and Louise spinoff series the problem? No, it's not. So if someone has a great idea, sure, go for it. First of all, Thelma and Louise, baby, is one of the best ideas I've ever heard. It's been talked about quite a bit that MGM does not currently have a CEO and maybe you should be the CEO with ideas like that. I do have another franchise idea ready. I don't know if you scrolled far enough in the outline for the pitch portion of this, but I've got one. Okay. Well, let's hold

it until we get to that point. Um, you know, this is obviously huge news for a variety of reasons. This is the biggest, um, and really frankly, the only, I think, acquisition of a media company slash studio by a tech company. And there had been talk for many years about Apple acquiring things, even Netflix potentially acquiring studios in the past. Studios like Paramount, studios like Sony to bolster their libraries. Amazon actually did it. And, you know, they picked up 4,000 movies. They picked up 17,000 hours of television. I guess what does success mean for an acquisition like this? Because for me, I'm obviously excited that all of these movies will potentially be on the Amazon Prime platform and I'll be able to

watch them and all of these TV shows as well. But what does Amazon Prime have to do to make this $9 billion investment successful? I mean, you just keep throwing me like, can you just digest the Wall Street Journal for me a minute? And like, luckily for you, Sean, I did read the Wall Street Journal. I knew you did. But so for movie lovers, for you and me,

I don't know what success looks like. And maybe we can talk about that or bitch about that some more. I think an interesting thing has been that like literally no one but the broccoli family has said the word theaters in the last 48 hours just like has not come up and so where movies fit in this constellation and their their value as a thing themselves, as opposed to like the font for spinoff TV shows and IP. TBD. My understanding from having read, you know, quote business things is that the video service and library is ultimately an increased like value to Amazon Prime because shipping and the other incentives of Amazon Prime are sort of

replicable and that like other places can offer you two-day shipping or whatever and competitors can fill that space but if you have like an amazing video library and all of these things that are not replicable you know Lord of the Rings being the main example, then that actually does boost the Amazon Prime value proposition as much as the reason that you and I use it. Because right now, you and I use it, I mean, because we have our jobs, but also because we saw Nomadland and didn't change our behavior and are just like, oh, I do need this in a couple of days. And that's how most people use Amazon Prime.

But I think over the time, they see more of the customer value coming from the streaming service and this library and people just being like, sure, I guess I'll keep it. Yeah, diversification, I think, ultimately is what this is about. Bezos, in his comments after the acquisition, noted that this might not work. And the idea of spending $8.45 billion on something that might not work is fascinating. These are the problems of the wealthiest people in the universe. I mean, how much did AT&T spend 18 months ago? That's a very good point.

For something that did not work, and then they were just like, bye? They shuttled that off to the world of Discovery Plus, and I'm sure we'll be talking about whatever that streaming service becomes over the course of the next year or so. This one seems to be happening a little bit more quickly, though. And it's a little funky. It's a little unusual because 1MGM is arguably the most historic Hollywood studio ever. This is the studio that produced The Wizard of Oz and American in Paris and Singing in the Rain and North by Northwest and 2001 A Space Odyssey, Raging Bull, Silence of the Lambs. I mean, this is a true movie Valhalla in a lot of ways and emblematic of Hollywood history. However, not all of those movies are a part of this library, which has

been pointed out by quite a few people in the last 48 hours, which is, you know, in 1986, when Ted Turner was putting together his cable networks and thinking about launching Turner Classic Movies, he bought up the library of pre 1986 MGM films. And so a lot of those historical films Gone with the Wind, for example, that's a film that you'll find on HBO Max because Turner currently has possession of that film. So what is in the library and what isn't in the library is an interesting conversation. We'll see as some of that stuff starts to get ingested into the Amazon Prime system, what they're going to have and what they're not going

to have. There are all kinds of wild permutations. In 1987, I believe, Kirk Kerkorian acquired the Polygram production of films, which includes movies like Fargo. So MGM kind of backfilled their catalog a little bit with some polygram movies. So where is what is an interesting topic for maybe a different conversation. I've been thinking about this Paramount Plus. There's been talk of Paramount adding its vast library of films to their streaming service this summer. And of course, they also, in the 60s and 70s particularly, produced some of the best American films of all time. So what this sort of feels like is just an increased and intense consolidation that is happening across the board here. Because there can really only be a couple of quote-unquote winners at the end of whatever the streaming wars are.

Do you think that this puts Amazon Prime in position to compete with Disney and Netflix, which are the clear kind of leaders right now? Well, Amazon just has so much more money to spend, right? And that was sort of, there were many issues from the AT&T side with the AT&T WarnerMedia deal. My dad loved to send me Financial Times articles about how unhappy the AT&T shareholders were, but they were also just, I think, not prepared to spend as much money as they needed to, to take on Disney and especially Netflix. And whether Amazon wants to spend all that money, TBD though, that they're spending, what is it? $465 million on the Lord of the Rings show. That's the reported number.

That you and Chris will be so happy about because you love Hobbit so much. But so they, they have the money and if they deem it an investment, sure, they can spend whatever they want. And that seems to be the X factor, right? Like, can you just throw all the money out there? Yeah. I mean, they have been really throwing all the money out there of late on acquisition titles. They acquired Coming to America for $125 million. The Tomorrow War is coming on July 2nd. That's a $200 million

Skydance movie. Did you check out the Tomorrow War trailer? Believe it or not, I didn't yet. Sad to see. Let me let you know that Chris Ryan texted me

as soon as that trailer hit. It was like, we need to talk about Skydance. So a lot of Skydance excitement in the air. But they've been spending these these outlays of films that they didn't even produce so now they're going to have the opportunity they're going to have you know bigger production services a little bit more connectivity to um to filmmakers

and to the filmmaking pipeline than they had before there the amazon prime filmmaking life cycle has also been interesting you know this was a studio that started out being run by ted hope who is one of the godheads of independent cinema in the 90s. And he was leaning into a certainly more independently minded approach to the kinds of films that they were pursuing. They were acquiring and distributing movies like Manchester by the Sea, and they were supporting films by Todd Haynes. And MGM, historically, you know, that's the home of Rocky. So I would imagine we're getting Creed 3 and Creed 6 and Creed 9 based on this acquisition. What do you think this means for the movies that are coming out from MGM just

this year? There's a few big ones. Yeah. So there is Soggy Bottom directed by one Paul Thomas Anderson. Never heard of him. The most anticipated movie of the year. There's Respect, the Aretha Franklin biopic that I'm very excited about starring Jennifer Hudson. And then there is, of course, House of Gucci directed by Sir Ridley Scott. I will just carry this enthusiasm by myself all the way to December. You can't take it away from me, Sean. I don't care if it's bad.

I'm excited. Anyway, those are two of our most anticipated films, which I am certainly expecting to see in theaters. And it does not seem that they would be able to take away that plan this late in the game. You have to assume that they're... But again, it is Amazon. And famous last words is basically everyone who made a movie with Warner Brothers last

year can tell you. Yeah. I mean, it's not just Warner Brothers anymore, though. There is something going on now. We've now seen a few movies movie. I think last week we saw an announcement that the Boss Baby 2 will be going directly to Peacock. And then just this week, it was announced somewhat quietly that Infinite, which is a new movie directed by Antoine Fuqua, starring Mark Wahlberg, one of the surest bets in all of movies, is going directly to Paramount Plus

on June 10th. That's in two weeks. This movie doesn't have a trailer. I haven't seen a poster. And it's supposed to show up on Paramount Plus. I'll tell you what I have seen is I believe that Mark Wahlberg

was filming that movie while being filmed for his HBO Max show, Wall Street. Yes, of course. And I watched one episode of Wall Street because Juliette Lippman is my friend. And when she asked me to do something, I do it. And I won't say that I regret that act of friendship. But I would just say in the context of Wall Street, maybe that wasn't going to be a winner.

And maybe that's why you haven't seen a trailer. Maybe that's why it's just kind of going to paramount plus because it just didn't pan out yeah although i wasn't exactly blown away by the creative efforts of spencer confidential and that's one of the most streamed movies in the history of netflix but netflix has no shame they're just like mark walberg and the thumbnail here we go we have spent billions of dollars to make you click on this and watch two minutes. And then everyone's just like, yeah, give me more shares, you know? So it's great. They did it. They did it. Whether Amazon Prime is going to do it, we don't know. I'm interested to see how it shakes out. Hopefully me and you and maybe Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will get together in a

week or two to do another home and home with the WatchPod and talk about what makes a great streaming service. Because it certainly feels like for me and you and for Chris and Andy, this is where we're going to get everything that we care about and cover on our respective shows. And no one has quite nailed it yet. You know, no one has quite made the thing that makes me feel like, oh, you've got the perfect engine for creating new movies and television shows. Someone's going to figure it out at some point. Somebody's going to be the 21st century Disney, but it ain't happening yet. Let's talk about the Oscars very quickly. But you didn't let me pitch my show. Oh my God, I forgot. Are you ready? Is it an elevator pitch? Is it going to take 20 minutes? It's an elevator pitch. It's pretty quick. So among the properties that MGM owns that you didn't mention is, wait for it, the Thomas

Crown Affair. So Thomas Crown Affair, there was a reboot in the works, like in 2019, starring Michael B. Jordan, who has been doing a lot of stuff with Amazon. So you could see it being in-house. But that was just a movie. And I'm going to betray our own show here and just say go big. Thomas Crown Affair, 10 seasons, robs a different museum every season, right? You go across the world.

You do the Guggenheim. You do the Tate Modern. You do Louvre Abu Dhabi. You're not doing regular Louvre because Lupin already did it. The final season, we make it to 10. He's robbing the Natural History Museum and stealing the whale.

Just, I mean, who says no? Wow. This is, you have been fully and completely ringerized. This is it. You have reached your moment. You have emerged from the chrysalis and the cocoon and you are now a butterfly of content. It's amazing.

I spent too much time with you. But just imagine, it's a giant whale and they're just taking it away. Yes, make it. I'm in. Pay, Jeff jeff bezos pay the thing is is the thomas crown affair that you love was already a remake so we are in ultimate inner city it's fine i've accepted it i'm just trying to make hay while the sun shines you know let's it's what we got you know what uh title steal the whaleal the whale. Steal the whale. My God. You know, a title emerged actually this week,

as well as a potential spinoff category is Legally Blonde. There's talk of a Legally Blonde expanded universe. Are you in on that? I mean, that's really hard to do without Reese. And they are doing a Legally Blonde 3, I believe, or I've been told. I don't want to get my hopes up. Yeah, but I'm open to it.

Let's see where Elle is, you know, in her 40s. But, you know, I guess you could find the right person. I don't know. Would it be a spinoff? You just have to start over, I guess. I don't know. Elle Woods babies? I guess Elle Woods babies.

The next generation. Sure. I mean, I'd watch it. Okay. Well, let's talk about what we're going to be watching next spring probably which is the Oscars the Oscars is going back to a more reasonable schedule it was announced this week that it will be airing on March 27th of 2022 which is a month later than it was previously scheduled for why do you think it moved just because of some exhaustion they don't want to run

two Oscars within 10 months of each other yeah I, I guess so. I mean, it does not seem like the first one went well, at least from a ratings perspective. It's a good point. And also from the last 20 minutes, which the people want as much distance from as possible. It's a good point. It was also suggested that February of next year is like unusually jam-packed. There is obviously the Super Bowl, which the Oscars are always kind of tangoing with, but also the Winter Olympics. We're getting kind of double Olympics, apparently, allegedly.

So to stay away from that programming and also probably just to buy everyone a little more time to get their act together. Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know if this

really means all that much. I do wish that the award show would happen sooner rather than later from the release of the films. I think this year in particular really suffered by having this incredibly extended award season. And so this is not really alleviating that concern in any meaningful way. But I do understand that maybe getting a little bit of distance from a show that was considered to have not gone terribly well is a wise move. On the other hand, we're seeing a lot of trailers and getting a lot of new release dates for a lot of movies that we really want to see. And it does seem like

from September to December of 2021, we're going to have a real bounty. It's going to be a really fun time on this show, really fun time for movies. You've basically got two and a half year or 18 months worth of quality films getting crunched into this very small timeframe. So I'm excited. I'm excited for a potentially great season and one that looks a little bit different from last year. There is also without the Golden Globes, which if you'll recall, are not happening in 2022, allegedly. I mean, the Hollywood Foreign Press Association announced some sort of new guidelines. I will see. You only get credit for when you actually do something.

But I believe the Critics' Choice Awards are taking that early January spot. But the Critics' Choice Awards don't have the same following that the Golden Globes do. And so maybe the awards season just starts a little later. Well, what would that look like? I mean, I don't know. It is a bit confusing, especially with like all of the sports in February, which, you know, shout out to sports. But they'll just, I sometimes I like them too.

You see that Knicks win, Amanda? Did you see the Knicks? I actually did. You know what? And it looked really fun. I am from Atlanta, but I have no allegiance to the Hawks. Yes. So I can be with you on the anti Trey young,

you know, thank you train. Also just MSG looked like fantastic. It looked so great spike in full effect. No one is wearing masks, but I apparently it's, there is a lot of, you know,

there's a vaccinated section. You got to produce a test. So it just looked great. Would love to be there i guess it was made uh clear to me that maybe the next round would be nicks versus sixers it's potentially a huge issue here at the ringer so i i live in a sixers home as you know yeah i've spent so much time uh watching nbc philadelphia sports this year and i love those guys they've been trying hard but i'm kind of done with it so uh it's that that'll be

intense but it would be fun it would fun is a word sure that's a word it would be it's just gonna get really vicious well the knicks are considerably worse team than the sixers so i don't go into that with any expectations of success so it'll be okay i don't think it'll be that bad but is it gonna be like a 30 point like difference? I don't know. Those games suck. Let me just say there have been too many of those in the NBA playoffs. I'll offer my opinions that no one wants.

I just I demand more. We need better programming. The game ones were terrific. The game twos have been a little bit lackluster. Let's go back to movies. We can talk basketball for the next three months. Anyway, that's why sports take up February. So you got to move the movies to March. It's okay.

Yeah. I think, um, the other challenges here are people just hanging on for three and a half months through the period and caring, I guess, ultimately what it'll come down to is are the movies, how the movies capture the imagination of not just pundits, but also fans of movies to be interested in whether or not they get awards. That's always, that's really always the story of the award season. So we'll see how that shakes out. They did kind of, I guess, essentially carry over the rule about theatrical releases and films that were made to be released theatrically, but are not necessarily premiering theatrically will be eligible for Academy Awards this year. They're saying it's just for this year. We'll see if that's true. It kind of feels to me like the genie is out of the bottle on that one. And the films that premiere on streaming

services will be eligible for Oscars going forward. What do you think about that? Yeah, because what else is going to be eligible for Oscars in like two years, let alone five years? Again, everybody is just being sold to make a larger streaming service, to make more things that you watch in your homes. And I like watching things in my home, especially a 10 season version of the Thomas crowd affair, but I, I still miss the theaters. I do as well. Fortunately, we're back in theaters this weekend. Next week on the show, we'll talk a lot about going back to theaters and what that's been like so far. But, um, let's talk quickly about something that you see in theaters, which are trailers. I can't wait to start seeing trailers again in theaters

as opposed to on my couch, which is just not the same. It's simply not the same. In fact, let me tell you something. I got a new TV, Amanda, okay? I got this television. I know, I heard the whole backstory. You heard the whole backstory. I'm not telling the backstory on this podcast,

but the television arrived and the television is beautiful. I have a new best friend. This television is changing my life already. Watching Knicks games on this TV, watching movies on this TV, I'm very happy. I've watched some trailers on it last night.

Looked great. Then I was in a movie theater and I saw a trailer and I was like, this is the real shit. This is how it ought to be. And I saw a trailer for eternals in a movie theater and i was like this looks so radically different from the trailer that i saw on my laptop it's unbelievable i i saw someone take a screenshot of one of the sort of the final

image of the eternals trailer which looked kind of gray and brown and blotchy and people people were comparing it to the animation style of Jack Kirby, the artist who created the Eternals. And they were like, look at how Marvel has desaturated and ruined the beauty of this artistry. But if you see it on a big screen, it looks totally different because you're not supposed to watch movies on your laptop. You're supposed to watch them in movie theaters. And honestly, I'm fired up for pretty much all movies.

Give me Peter Rabbit 2. Let's go. Like. I'll see anything in a movie theater right now. I have a number of responses. It's like a four-part response. Number one, I just want to say I am pro anything that de-grays and browns and muddies all movies, but especially all superhero movies. So I'll take your word on that. Number two, the idea that the movie theater is the best place for you, Sean Fennessey, to watch a trailer. A person who literally, when I'm in your home, will just be like, let's queue up some movie trailers. And then we sit on your couch. This was pre-pandemic, but I can feel it coming back. You're just like, let's queue up the movie trailers and we'll watch

them and rate them. Usually movie trailers that we've all seen except for your wife, but then her reactions are worth it. You know, maybe that's how we could finally get her on the podcast. If we just like did like a pure Eileen react trailer reactions, it'd be really good. She will never do it. She'll never do it, but it's a great idea. It's like she has a singular mind. You just never know what's going to come. And it's really good. Number three, love movie theaters.

Love just like picture perfect quality. But also I'd like to choose when I'm advertised to and on what terms. So that's kind of where I am with it. And number four, yet another thing I'll miss about the arc light I was nervous I didn't know if I had four points but I got to number four this is podcasting people number four one more thing that I'll miss about the arc light um very limited trailers which I you would get one or two but they were focused they always felt like they were audience appropriate. I wasn't like suddenly watching

some dumb video game trailer, but like that I don't care about before, you know, seeing Phantom Thread. And I'll miss that. Thank you, Arclight. Yeah, I hope some other theaters adopt that policy if the Arclight doesn't come back. I've only been in multiplexes thus far,

and the multiplexes, you're right, are still showing you six previews, two of which you truly don't care about, two which are medium on and two of which i'm like let's go including films like uh last night in soho and that trailer hit like a bomb a couple of days ago i was thinking back to our most anticipated movies of 2020 podcast i believe i selected last night in soho and that podcast so that's how many months ago now is that 14 15 16 months ago oh you mean like the 2019 version of that podcast well the one that was recorded in january of 2020 before we went into lockdown and we were like what movies are coming out soon okay and it was that edgar wright movie

was i think supposed to be in the fall of 2020 it's now in the fall of 2021 boy looks good boy looks like um italian giallo and english horror and all the major influences of films that i love and i'm obsessed with and edgar channeling his love for those things the same way he channeled his love for you know action heist movies and baby driver and zombie movies and shauna the dead and um also anya taylor joy who i guess now is is now the biggest star we have like is it is she almost market correcting emma stone who we'll be talking about later on this podcast it feels like she has very quickly emerged in the last six or ten months as someone who people want to see right she and ben affleck i think won lockdown in a pop

pop culture space that's a that's a podcast idea we did not pursue that maybe we should have. Yeah, I mean, I say that with every caveat under the sun. That's why I add pop culture space. And maybe we should stick away from winning lockdown. We're all glad that we're back, but it went well in an internet attention space for Ben Affleck and Anya Taylor-Joy. Did you see her on SNL at all? No, of course not. I didn't either. This is the first year of my, really since I was 14, that I just did not keep up with

Saturday Night Live. Is that just because I'm getting old? Is it because SNL is waning in the consciousness? What do you think that's about? I think it's all three. I mean, some of it is just the timing and that by the time you get to Saturday night, you've now seen 45 memes and skits and they have a hard time keeping up with stuff.

It's not really their fault. Some of the weekend update stuff that I saw was very good. I really liked Bowen Yang's Titanic iceberg clip that I think was sent to me like two weeks after it aired. And I was like, oh, this is funny. I did see Cecily Strong's farewell as Janine Pirro at the, Judge Janine at the weekend update desk on last week's episode and it was amazing.

Always loved Cecily Strong. I feel like she's underrated cast member the last 10 years. Okay, we're askew. Should we take a quick break before we talk about Cruella and Emma Stone? Let's do it. Okay. let's do it okay okay we're back let's talk about cruella i don't know if you can really spoil cruella but there

may be some spoilerish elements to our conversation there's a twist did you see it coming is there a twist yes there's a twist it takes far too long to get to the twist. One thing you can say about Cruella, it's too long. But there's an absolute twist. I honestly don't even remember what the twist is, which is maybe a bit of an indictment on the film, but you'll be able to identify that maybe a little deeper into our conversation. So I just wrote my way through a description

of what Cruella is just to kind of make sense of what this movie is. And I'm just going to, I'm going to read it or if you're okay with that. Reading your description of this movie, it was like a real journey for you. What time of day slash night did you write this? Oh, it was definitely after midnight. Yeah. No, I know. Without question. And it like, it reveals more about the author than the movie, I would say. Oh, come on. No. And it, but it also, it's like, I mean, this is also you should

just read critically it it reveals a lot about your perspective how you're uh greeting this film and processing it and that's fine but it it was nice writing it was concise oh well thank you i'll take that compliment along with all of those other jabs you just took at me um here is my description of the film Cruella. Cruella is the exploration of a young 1960s English woman named Estella DeVille who is orphaned but ambitious without a clear path to the world of high fashion, which is where she wants to be. So she takes up a life of petty crime with two brothers

who befriended and saved her after her mother's untimely death. She finesses her way into a job as a janitor at a high-end department store, and after a drunken night in the shop in which her rebel flair is displayed to the public and famed designer Baroness von Hellman, she gets a chance to apprentice with the Baroness. The apprenticeship curdles to rivalry

as Estella's ambition grows under the Baroness's withering and controlling command, leading to the creation of Cruella, an alter ego that trades on Estella's genetic half-black, half-white hair color. Cruella creates a series of extravagant fashion stunts to upstage the Baroness and appears to invent punk rock and the sartorial approach of Vivienne Westwood in the making. Eventually, the rivalry comes to a head many times over, leading to the inevitable showdown and emotional reckoning birthing the iconic Disney villainous Cruella de Vil.

So apprenticeship curdles to rivalry is my favorite part of this. Just so you know, I was like, wow, Sean's really going for it. Honestly, I just, I wrote it in a stream of consciousness as I tried to remember the film. I wrote it a few days after I saw it just to make sure I could keep my mind around the movie. Is this an inaccurate description of the film cruella it is a an accurate plot and and to an extent motivational summary of what's going on in cruella but you've written it isolates the key tension i think which is like you've written the grown-up version of this movie you've written what happened if this was a film made for adults and with adult levels of emotion and exploration of motivations and consequences.

And it is not entirely a movie for adults. I agree with that. There's a bit of an ongoing conversation about, quote unquote, who is this movie for? You actually mentioned it on the pod a couple of weeks ago when we first hinted at talking about this movie. I think it's a reasonable question to ask. It's also a very difficult question to answer.

Not because it's not for anyone. I do think that you could make the strong case that it's for girls between the age of 10 and 16. You know, maybe boys too, but it seems very targeted at a key demographic

that you don't necessarily think of when you think Disney movie. You don't think kind of 12 and under, I think, is the key Disney demographic. And then parents, of course. This is tonally, visually, even performatively a different kind of Disney movie and a different kind of Disney live action movie, which is a subgenre that we've been talking about a little bit over the last couple of years on this show. We talked about Aladdin and some of the oddity of trying to translate animation to live action. We saw it in Beauty and the Beast.

We saw it in Cinderella. We've seen it, of course, in Maleficent, the movie that this probably has the most in common with out of everything in the Disney universe. All in all, taking the plot and who this movie is for like did you like the movie cruella so can we can we get existential right now i've honestly been doing this in my head this is the big picture so what else are we gonna do yeah no it's true i think that this is a well-done movie i think that this is better than most of the live action movies that you just made i think it is coherent i think a lot of thought was put into the production design

and specifically the costumes, which are like a major part of the film. It is about fashion. The fashion elements of it are done really well, as opposed to like many big budget movies that claim to care about fashion. And then everybody just looks like not good. Won't name any names there, but you can definitely fill a long list. So I, I think the performances are great. Both Emma Stone and Emma Thompson and the supporting cast, like it hangs together. I do. I think it's a bit long, but all movies are, but otherwise I think it's really like well-made and I was entertained at times, but I also like, I'm a grownup and when something is for children or for something younger than me, my natural impulse is just to be like, well, this was a nice movie for someone other than me. Not, you know, it's, it's for children or for

children and their families or their parents and families or whatever. And I'm beginning to wonder if that's a strategic approach, like mistake. And I'm beginning to wonder whether I should start ignoring that impulse and being like, well, this movie has a lot of things I like that I don't often see in other big movies. And so I should advocate for it in the way that I often feel other people that I know perhaps on this podcast

are advocating for things that it's like, well, it's a lot of what I like, even though it's not totally for me. And I, and I do feel like we end up talking about a lot of movies on this podcast that are for generously all ages. Shall we say that? Even though I frankly just think they're for children. And then there are a lot of adults who are devoting a lot of their time to things that are for children, but they have things that you like.

They have like cultural references that are interesting to you. They're about things they're in packages. And you're like, so this is cool. So am I, should I just be like, this is cool. I, because i just be like this is cool i because otherwise i don't know well you put your finger on something very interesting because

a thing that makes you you that makes amanda amanda is that you are um you do not suffer fools and you are unheeding in the face of bullshit and you don't you don't you know you don't you're i wouldn't say you're not very flexible but i admire that about you and and so you're suggesting a change of philosophy here one that i think is a little bit more in tune with how i try to approach these things which is we are not living in 1976 and so we are not at the height of american cinema we are in a different time in our cultural history. Let's try to understand what is working and what excites me or makes me happy, even if I know critically that it is absent some sort of deeper meaning or profundity. And my appreciation for the Marvel films, for example, Star Wars, I think, is on a different playing field. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, it's history throughout American movies in the last 40, 50 years. But Marvel movies in particular, and my appreciation for them is always with caveats. Yeah, yeah, yeah. gather the things that I admire and celebrate those things. And you're right. Cruella does have some things to recommend it. It feels very similar to superhero movies to me in another way, which is you can tell that all of the people who made this movie are very good at making movies. And I wish they just made a different movie. I wish Craig Gillespie and Jenny Bevan, who did the costumes and the brilliant Nicholas Bertel, who did the score and the music supervisor on this movie. And of course, Emma Stone and Emma Thompson. I'm like, just all you guys get back together again, get an original script and make another movie because that would probably be good.

But like, we can say that about almost all big budget movies that get made now. And like, I don't want to just single out Marvel movies, but like definitely all the Marvel movies, except you like the trappings of the Marvel movies more. And so, and, and so do like a lot of people who, you know, say things on the internet. And so that gets coded in. And then when we get something with like trappings that I like, I mean, this is essentially devil wears Prada, but for 10 year olds and also with Disney IP. And on the one hand, we already have devil wears Prada and I think it's perfect. So just rewatch that. But like, why shouldn't I just be glad that Emma Stone and Emma Thompson

got to make like a fun fashiony movie, um, with a lot of money and a budget and be like, yeah, I don't know. I just feel like when it checks certain boxes of interests and references, we're like, sure, well, you know, we just got like a Western inside of a Thor movie. Who cares? And when it like checks other references, we're like, why are we doing this? Why can't we just go back to independent cinema? And the reality is, is like, I would just like these people to make a grownup movie too. Like, I don't, I don't give, I don't care about Cruella DeVille's origin story. Like I don't, I just don't care. I don't want to watch a Disney movie. I'm

not one of these people that goes like Disneyland all of the time. I don't understand those people, but I- I like Disneyland. What's wrong with Disneyland? It's fine every once in a while. But I was trying to figure out who this movie was made for. And I think it's either 10-year-olds or, I guess, the people who just go to Disneyland every weekend. And those people deserve movies too. But I don't know if I want to throw my hat in with them in order to fight some larger thing about criticism online and what gets made and what gets what doesn't you know I'm less interested in the latter point honestly I do think it's very generous of you to indicate the 10 year olds deserve movies too and not just you I think that there is obviously something very odd here because it's not just

that the the film is very adult in a lot of ways the themes of the movie and some of the the aspects of the movie are very grown up it's violent at times it's about trauma and it's some version of a disney trauma you know the dead parent disney trauma but also a little bit of authentic orphaned like who am i in the world what is my identity like bigger questions that sure, maybe also Luke Skywalker had that same question. And I think the thing that Cruella also has in common

with a lot of those Star Wars and Marvel things that you're talking about is it's a movie that is meant to capture not just the 10 year olds, but people who were 10 when they saw 101 Dalmatians and have held on to that experience

and are carrying it into their adulthood. That's obviously the story for me with Star Wars. I was five years old when I saw that movie and it has story for me with Star Wars. I was five years old when I saw that movie, and it has been a part of my life since I was five years old. And so even though it's a little bit embarrassing to be all excited about Darth Vader, I still am. So I think that this movie is attempting to do a little bit of that as well.

It's also trying to have a couple of other things that I think it can't balance. I think it can't balance being an actually cool movie. Like it wants to be cool. Emma Stone wants to make Cruella a kind of like interesting anti-hero. Like look at how she's like the Joker, but she's not. And it's Cruella DeVille and it's an absurd and ridiculous character with no edge because it's a Disney movie. So how do you put edge on something that is formless. All Disney property is this globule of softness. Right. Also, how do you put edge on a character that historically skinned dogs in order to make a coat? No dogs were skinned in this movie. They explain that away, just so you know. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the inversion though. Cruella is one of the more evil of

the Disney villainesses, I guess. But it's also, it's just an absurd thing. And this movie is somewhat trying to ground her in a real world, in a real time in 1960s and 70s England. What did you think about just the way that that kind of setting was rendered? Did you think it worked? It has a fantastical element to it. The first 20 minutes are Dickensian London, and then they just like skip 100 years. Like, I don't know if it's Cruella Cannon that her name was originally Estella, which is obviously like a Great Expectations character. But that's like the vibe that they're going for Artful Dodger, whatever. And then they just fast forward to like sort of early punk rock London sort of. And I liked the Vivian Westwood references and we can talk about the soundtrack and you just like went full dad movie nerd in

your comments on the soundtrack and we'll get there. But I don't know. I like, I thought it was charming. And again, they spent more time and money and thought on it than most of these movies do and certainly most movies for kids so it worked for me i was also like do 10 year olds care about vivian westwood and probably they don't know who she is but but that's that's okay maybe they can learn but in the same way that um you know star wars can introduce you to the hero myth i think that this movie could introduce you to you know that that version of fashion and and who those key figures are the same way it wants to introduce you to the stooges and the rolling stones and the doors and super tramp and all of these bands you know the music obviously activated a dormant music critic brain for me and i always

get a little bit fussy when something identifies itself as punk rock when it's not punk rock not because i'm some allegiant to the the ethics and the power of punk rock music but it's just like you can't put electric light orchestra and the doors in your movie and be like this movie is punk rock those are not punk rock bands they're not even a little bit punk rock. They're either classic rock or they're like extravagant pop rock. And so there's this the soundtrack is pretty fun. It's also

just way overloaded. I mean, there's music at every turn to the point of exclusion of character development I think at times where they're like, wouldn't it be better if we just had Emma Thompson walking slowly into a building to the point of exclusion of character development, I think at times where they're like, wouldn't it be better if we just had Emma Thompson walking slowly into a building to the, to the strains of five to one,

as opposed to letting her reveal who she is as a character. So it has a little bit of like, is this a perfume commercial? Is it the Victoria secret runway show element to it at times, which I guess is meant to, maybe that's like the, um, this is for 40 year

old parents part of the movie. Like I'll be excited to hear Tina Turner's cover of whole lot of love while I'm watching this with my young daughter. I I'm trying to wrap my head around what the thinking was with the music. I guess. I agree with you that they're just so many of them. It's does feel excessive. They come like every two or three minutes and you haven't even heard like a full song before another one comes and they are so obvious

that you're like, oh my God, like how much money did they spend on this? Like how many Rolling Stone songs are in this movie? And the answer is more than one. So,

and to the point where if you have time to think, which you definitely do in the second third of this film, are like, are they trying to paper over some stuff here? Did they just need the energy? So, I mean, it's definitely a choice. On the flip side, as a veteran of movies targeted at women, I just have to tell you, the soundtracks are just abominable every single time. You've never heard worse music than in a rom-com like made from 1995

until honestly the present day. I have no idea where they find these musicians. I mean, I do actually, cause I think it's like the bargain bin, like recording label. Like, can you just please put this person on your soundtrack and try to make it a hit? Um, they're awful. They're awful when they're released. They're even worse. 10 years later, it's, it's insulting, frankly. And so I was just glad to hear some actually decent music in a movie starring two women for once. How would you describe that genre, that sub genre of music, the rom-com soundtrack sound? Just like failed top 40, like, like failed Sara Bareilles. And i don't mean that as like disrespect to sarah borealis who's very good in girls 5-11 actually like has some good songs but it's like people

who don't have what she has but think that they do i mean just you know like sunny bubbly just treacly nails on chalkboard it It's funny too, because, you know, one of the most memorable and well-known things about Cruella de Vil is she has her own theme song that famous moment that you'll hear at the top of this podcast in the original 101 Dalmatians, which have you seen that movie?

I assume you have. Yes, but not since it was released. It was released in 1961. So I don't think you saw it in that. Oh no, I thought you meant the Glenn Close one. I don't know if I've seen the original. Oh, the original is wonderful. It's a really great animated movie.

But there's a famous scene in which the lead male figure, the protagonist, really, of the movie, on the spot, writes the Cruella de Vil theme song. Oh, I have seen that. Yeah, of course. And it's like a, I don't know, it's like a Doris Day song or something, or like a pop jazz composition. It's not 60s and 70s London. It's not the Ramones. So there's something a little bit dissonant, I think, about whatever the 101 Dalmatians' cultural identity is and what this movie is trying to be. Not that that matters to anybody who isn't 40 years old, but it did jump out to me as odd. If Emma Stone had turned a camera at one point and just offered like a two minute big short style explication of like the punk scene in the late

60s and early 70s and what you're hearing is not actually related to this, but may speak to like, would you be happy? No, I think that would be weird as well although maybe it would gratify my sense of confusion i i guess it's like is this movie about david bowie or is this movie about iggy pop is probably like a cutting the the cheese a little bit too thin there but it was i was just confused i was honestly just confused okay um the other thing that is funny about the music is that Nick Bertel does the score and the score is amazing and there's not enough score in the movie. It's like, go to Spotify

and check out the score of this movie. It's actually wonderful just to listen to. So why are there 370s rock songs in the movie? I don't know. What else about this movie? I mean, you know, it strikes me as not necessarily a logical conclusion to the live action Disney

story. We're going to see live action adaptations, say, of The Little Mermaid in the future. But it feels a little bit like grasping at straws in the sort of like prequel origin story. Like, what's really behind this character thing that has been happening over the last 10 years? I mean, sort of, but you and I did see Maleficent too. So you want to talk about grasping at straws. One of the great red state, blue state documents of the 2010s. This at least made sense. I mean, I think we were a little bit like, is this like a big enough audience for Disney to be able to spending this much money on this. And, you know, is this really what live action Disney audiences want, but who really knows, but it had a coherent beginning, middle and end. I understand stood everyone's motivations. I understood how it fit in like the

101 Dalmatians universe. So that probably puts it on the higher end of live action adaptations, if you think about it. Like never forget the total meltdown that you had because the live action Aladdin included a genie who fucks. And you were just like, absolutely not. Sex may not exist in the Aladdin universe. I think I just was having a hard time sciencing genies having sex we went to the live action lion king and you're like i don't

understand simba's motivation like why you're just like hamlet's a bad story so this one i number one you're just very hard on live action uh adaptations of disney movies is that just because you're just trying to be the protector adaptations of Disney movies. Is that just because you're just trying to be the protector of animation forever? Is that what that's about? I wouldn't describe it that way, but maybe you've gotten closer to my motivation. Okay. And number two, this one is fairly successful, at least in conveying motivations and not making you have a puritanical meltdown, even though you did a little bit in the outline. You were just like, Crlla is a bad role model for children

that's just ridiculous it's just an overstatement of what i was indicating it is kind of a funny movie though because emma stone or excuse me emma thompson who is really one of your heroes one of the one of your icons plays a very bad character and cruella deville is considered a really nasty villain in the Disney universe. And Emma Thompson's character is significantly nastier. And so it's a funny counterpoint that in order to make us sympathize, I guess, with Cruella de Vil, we needed to wedge in this evil figure. Was this a rewarding Emma Thompson on screen experience for you? I loved it. I thought she was great. She was clearly having the time of her life.

You know, Emma Thompson is one of my heroes. And I think she deserves as much money as she wants. And she certainly has been seeking it in various paycheck roles in the last five years. And I gotta tell you, some of the paycheck roles don't always work out, including Last Christmas, which is a movie we never discussed on this podcast.

But maybe we should. Maybe we should just do the worst movies always work out, including Last Christmas, which is a movie we never discussed on this podcast, but maybe we should. Maybe we should just do the worst movies we haven't talked about for an episode sometimes. Yeah, that's actually a really funny idea. I was thinking of trying to do it, like, what are the more underappreciated movies of the last 10 years pod, but maybe the absolute worst movies that we ignored is also a good pod um and then she was also famously in do little the last one of the last movies you and i saw together before so listen this worked out she's funny she gets to do miranda priestly am i allowed to reveal the no i shouldn't reveal the twist in case people want to find out i still don't know what it is in cruella okay should we skip if you don't want to know the twist skip skip. And can I tell you now?

Yes. Tell me. So the Baroness is actually her mother. Oh, right. That's right. I forgot. It's like the number one movie twist.

It's like surprise. They literally do Luke. I am your father. Like in this movie, speaking of Star Wars. You're right. I had forgotten. Should we redo the movie twist episode?

I was a little surprised. I didn't see it coming. It, again, took way too long to get there. But so she's having a great time and I'm really happy for her. And I like having the two Emmas together. And I hope she did get paid a lot. Okay. Let's talk about Emma Stone because we could first talk about her work in Cruella and whether or not it works. And then where she stands, she's still only 32 years old, which was mind-blowing to me. And she's already had a pretty incredible career. This felt like an opportunity for her to essentially identify a new world of IP that didn't necessitate putting on a cape and cowl. It was like, I don't really want to do a superhero movie, but if I want to diversify my opportunities in Hollywood long term, hitch my wagon to something that will be seen across the world instead of just in art houses or on a streaming service.

Here's a way to get into that universe. This is my savvy choice. Did you think she was good as Cruella? Yeah, of course think she was good as cruella yeah of course we should talk about the british accent that it's just it's not always there but and is cruella canonically british i don't remember uh i believe so okay well you know maybe with time she'll get there but that's okay i i just am always charmed by her and i and i do think this movie allows her for a lot of kind of like the winking comedy that she is so good at you've

asked me a couple of questions about cruella deville canon as if i have any awareness of that i genuinely don't this movie exists i'm like the premise is that there is a canon and it's like inventing some of it but it's in dialogue with a lot of other movies and just because i haven't dialed in on any of those or don't remember them i've seen 101 dalmatians guys i'm not a monster but i i haven't parsed the details so i thought maybe you had you're normally my canon guy yeah no i i'm not very um conversant in that canon i will say emma, one of the things I like about her is she's obviously an amazingly winning actor, but she's also a person who is never,

she's never puritanical. You know, she has a little bit of a mischievousness, I think, to her performance. So she's a good fit for this movie. I do think that the movie kind of struggled to make me, to help me like find a way to care. Like I don't, I just don't really care about Cruella de Vil.

I don't really care about like who hurt her and why she wants to skin these Dalmatians. Like as an idea, that's just so stupid. It's just like, who gives a shit? Just like, but I want you to tape that.

And then in every superhero movie going forward, we'll just play it. And I was like, I don't really care about Ant-Man. You want me to care about a man who's an ant? Why would I care? Amanda, you're right. The contradictions are deep and profound.

I felt what you probably feel most of the time. Yeah, I do. And so that's why I'm like, am I betraying myself and all my people? Who are your people? They have hobbies. And so they don't have to make time to like fight for Cruella de Vil just because it doesn't meet their impossibly high standards.

But it's like, should I compromise my standards? You know what? That's not the lesson of Cruella, but maybe it's what I need to do. I don't know. I can't do it. You're right.

I'm completely inflexible. It's a movie for children and I like children and I hope that they like this movie. Well, that's as considerate a review of Cruella as you're ever going to hear. You know, one thing I wanted to cite, I read A.O. Scott's review in the Times of this movie and I thought he had a perceptive note about it, which is that this is a movie that seems designed to only make you think of other movies and that that's something that is maybe resembles the Disney strategy writ large right now, which is to say there's not a huge emphasis on original stories. There are some.

We got Soul. We're getting Luca, a new Pixar movie in a couple of maybe about three or four weeks from now. So there are new things coming that have original premises, but most of the stuff we see is based on other stuff, which goes back to the MGM conversation, which has been plaguing Hollywood for the last 10 years. And so it does always kind of feel like when we get to the end of a conversation about a movie like this, we just feel like we're circling the drain on something,

which is a little bit of a bummer. But Cruella is obviously made by people who are extraordinarily talented, and it sure seems like they did the best they could. I think they did a pretty good job at making this thing. I just would love to hear them explain what this thing is. Let's talk more deeply about Emma Stone. What do you like about Emma Stone as an actor?

Just like a really classic screwball comedy energy, but she does not feel of the 1940s. She is not rigid. She can, as you said, like adapt to the situation. She's never disapproving and also like can also do serious roles. Yes, very, very, very flexible. Speaking of flexibility,

somebody who can fit in in a costume drama and who can fit in a contemporary high school comedy and can fit in a zombie movie. There are not a lot of actors, men or women, that have had the kind of career that she's had. And her career has not always been necessarily a platinum one. She's made some weird choices, and we'll talk a little bit about them as we go through her filmography here to build out a Hall of Fame. But I think in some ways, her work and her choices have been symbolic of the perils of being a young star in Hollywood and how to be successful. She did participate in a superhero franchise.

She was not a superhero. She was the girlfriend in the Spider-Man films with her then boyfriend, Andrew Garfield. But she does have all of the kind of the markings of a memorable screen presence. She has an indelible voice, a smoky, very identifiable voice. She's got those gigantic eyes, mega movie star eyes. And like you said, she has range. She's able to work with a lot of different kinds of filmmakers on a lot of different kinds of films. And she also feels like in conversation with Catherine Hepburn, Lucille Ball, Julia Roberts,

you know, she it's part of there's a lineage of a certain kind of American actress that she feels a part of that that chain of connection. Is she having the career that you thought she would have when you first saw her? I presume in Superbad was the first time you saw her. Yes, Superbad was the first time. And I'm not really sure that I gave any thought to her long-term career after Superbad. No disrespect to Superbad, which is excellent and that she's excellent in.

But I believe three years later, there is a movie where she kind of burst on the screen for me and that is obviously easy a and then i spent a lot of time thinking about emma stone i think that is just like a spectacular performance if you have not seen it in a while really recommend it we did rewatchables about rewatchables about it last year um but that's a movie that does not work at all without her particular blend of just comedic timing and energy and just and the winning quality that I think we've both described. It's just like no one else can sell that but Emma Stone. And so she kind of emerged to me as a new romantic comedy leading lady i was like oh this is the next julia roberts

or sort of meg ryan but she's doing a very different thing than meg ryan she's a lot of forward energy yeah and then not a sweetie pie necessarily yeah no i mean but but she is still ultimately she's she's not really a villain until she's Cruella. And even there is kind of softening the idea of what a villain is. So Easy A, I was like, oh, great. We have our new next decade rom-com Leaning Lady. And then, of course, romantic comedies and big budget movies starring women that are not superhero movies disappeared. So, no, she has not had the career that I imagined at all.

But has really anybody who came of age in the 2000s had what we would have predicted at that time? No, that's a good point though. You've identified something that I think has affected her. And maybe, you know, she also, I think, made some choices to kind of defy what kind of a career she wanted to have. I think taking a movie like Zombieland early in her career

was a very conscious choice to say, I can hold a shotgun in a movie. I can be in a genre film. I can use my sense of humor and apply it to not just the classical Meg Ryan or Julia Roberts type parts. And I appreciate that. It may have gone a little bit too far in the other direction at times, but she now finds herself in this interesting kind of balance beam moment where if you look at the parts that she's taking, you can see she's trying to do a one for them, one for me, one for them, one for me thing. So let's just go through her filmography

and try to build out this Hall of Fame because it's a complicated one. And usually what we try to do here in the Halls of Fame is we try to identify 10 projects, usually movies. Sometimes we expand the definition to include TV or some sort of social media venture. And in this case, I don't know if we'll get to 10 with Emma. Obviously, of course, she's still only 32 years old and she's only been in movies for the last 14 years or so.

So it's not as though she has as deep a resume as say George Clooney, who we built a hall of fame for, but we're going to go through it. So 2007 super bad. Of course, she plays Jonah Hill's love interest jewels. This is the first time most of us saw her. I will admit to falling for her right away. When I saw this movie, she certainly fits a lot of the archetypes of beauty that are interesting to me um i assume super bad's going in yeah of course okay super bad easy one 2008's the rocker do you remember this movie the rock i do not i was about to suddenly google it while you talked about what it was uh the got the the rocker is a comedy um starring rain wilson right kind of at the peak of his can Rainn Wilson be a star during the office years?

And Emma Stone is kind of the third lead in the movie behind Christina Applegate and Josh Gad. And it's a movie that some people have a kind of cult affection for, but I don't know if Emma is enough a part of the movie

for it to feel a part of her Hall of Fame. So I would say no. I'm going to vote no because I didn't know what it was, but everything that you just said could also be possibly applied to the next movie on the list, which is The House Bunny. Yeah, this is a movie that was a bigger hit that I think has a bigger sense of admiration. This is a comedy starring Anna Faris about a playboy bunny who is, I think, attempting to get an education and re-enrolling. Or no, she's the mother figure in a sorority. Yeah, she takes over the loser sorority house and I think teaches them how to be a good sorority house, but also feel better about themselves.

And again, she's kind of sort of the second, third lead in this movie behind Anna Faris and I guess Colin Hanks, who was the love interest in the movie. And I think this is also a movie that people identified and were like, Emma Stone is the best part of this movie in some ways, but she's not- Please respect Anna Faris, okay? I do respect her.

I always thought the premise of this movie was kind of dumb, but I guess the premise of most comedies are kind of dumb. It's not my favorite premise of a movie either. I mean, but respect on a Ferris and respect Emma Stone. But yeah. Do you think it goes in? It's this movie was a big hit relative to the time.

I mean, this is one of those things where if we are going to like try to push to 10, then this is sort of the sleeper. You know what? She was pretty good in this. But I also just have to say, I have not seen the house bunny in at least

maybe like eight, nine years. And I don't know how the premise or the jokes hold up. And I kind of don't want to be held responsible. As soon as you say sorority, warning lights go off for me. So pretty star-studded collection of young actresses who were you know considered to be like you know ugly ducklings in in the film premise but in real life or very much not i believe the sorority includes emma

stone cat dennings katherine mcphee and rumor willis yeah so you know pretty hollywoodized version of the ugly sorority nevertheless okay we'll keep that one out ghosts of girlfriends past now i'm gonna tell you right now i've never seen this film okay i think that i did but i'm definitely also googling it right now because i did no no no no no this is this is not a good one i remember it now i just have to tell you so this stars uh matthew mcconaughey and many other people but the the late 2000s matthew mcconaughey romantic comedies just like not a scene you want to be a part of yeah this is just before the launch of the mcconaissance we're about a year or two out and this is one where you know basically his exes are reappearing to him as he

attempts to take on a serious relationship of a christmas carol just to kind of keep the dickens going in this podcast yeah interesting how this film was released on may 1st 2009 i mean it's like that they're that they're the ghosts of girlfriends pass instead of the ghosts of whatever passed from i can't even remember Christmas Carol now. God, I'm such a nightmare. God, get it together. Too much time studying the Cruella canon there. I know.

You've lost touch with your literary roots. Ghosts of Girlfriend's Pass, in which Emma Stone, I believe, plays one of the girlfriends, I assume. I don't know. I have not seen this movie. Not going in. Yeah.

Paper Man, 2009. Again, this is when she's trying to hustle up a career she's taken on parts in which she is not necessarily the star paper man is about a struggling writer who relies on an imaginary childhood friend to help him with life decisions amma stone plays a high school student who befriends him again this is not a very well-seen film. The box office apparently was $13,514. Not what you want. So we don't put it in. It's out.

2009 Zombieland has to go in. Yeah. Big hit, fun movie. We just talked about it on our Zombie Movies podcast. Easy one. Speaking of easy, 2010, Easy A. Yes. The first genuine hit that was largely on the shoulders of Emma Stone announces her as a comedy force in Hollywood 2011 friends with benefits would you

like to talk about your personal experience with the film friends with benefits um just that it was it's a it's a based on my, my life story. Yeah. Working as an editor at GQ when the film was released about an editor at GQ. Right. Yes. Um, yeah. Justin Timberlake plays a dude working at GQ in offices that were significantly nicer

than the ones that I occupied when I was working there. And, um, this movie is okay. It's not bad. It's okay. Uh, it's also not a signature Emma Stone performance, so it's not going in the Hall of Fame. Correct. Crazy Stupid Love. Now, here's a movie I did not return to, though I wish I had before watching this. Did you return to this movie? No, but I've returned to it many times in my life, and so I'm just ready to advocate for it vociferously. She

has the dirty dancing lift with Ryan Gosling, okay. Like that's the only thing that we need in the hall of fame is Emma stone being lifted above. I believe Ryan Gosling is shirtless during the dirty dancing lift. And also, I don't know if you remember any of the Ryan Gosling portions of this film also starts like a beautiful partnership between Emma stone and Ryan Gosling, which brings me great joy.

The rest of this movie is a little bit weird, but that's okay. Yes. Thank you, Crazy Stupid Love. Okay. Crazy Stupid Love is going in. You see already that we may not get to 10 based on the way we've been doing this.

We have four. We have four, but things get a little rocky here. Yeah, they do. She starts working with some questionable auteurs. Here's one. 2011's The Help. Now, what do you do here?

I don't really like The Help. No. I don't really like the message of The Help. I didn't even think it was that entertaining. I think a lot of people are like, well, but it's fun

and it's enjoyable so don't worry about the fact that it has a terrible message and seems completely out of touch with the concept of racial relationships at that that time and this time. But Emma Stone, one of the reasons why the movie was a big hit is that Emma Stone's very winning in the movie and along with the rest of the star studded cast of that film. It was a hit. It probably helped her get more famous.

Is the Hall of Fame about quality or about success? What do you think? It's about what we want it to be. We don't need to put the help in it. We can acknowledge the circumstances of the help and the success of the help and then say we choose to move on. I'm with you 100%.

Let's move on to The Amazing Spider-Man in which Emma Stone starred as Gwen Stacy. Famed, faded girlfriend. soon to be dead girlfriend. Yes, truly. Spoilers. One of the most iconic storylines in comic books history is the Green Goblin killing Gwen Stacy. There's an iconic Spider-Man cover.

Great book. Very traumatizing if you're a young kid. They put the death on the cover? Well, you see her imperiled on the cover of the issue in which she dies. Okay. They put the death on the cover? Well, you see her imperiled on the cover of the issue in which she dies. And that also leads to Mary Jane Parker, who becomes the ultimate famed longtime partner of Spider-Man, who is played by Kirsten Dunst in the original Sam Raimi films. These films were made by Mark Webb. Emma was seeing Andrew Garfield at the time.

Andrew Garfield's life's aspiration was to star a Spider-Man in a Spider-Man movie. And these Spider-Man movies just didn't really work out. I thought the first one was okay. It certainly came too soon after the Raimi movies. And I think it suffered for that. But there were some things about it that I really liked. The second one is not good. And there were some missteps in that. Did you ever see that one?

The second one? Which one is the one with the branzino i believe that's the first one i i don't know i just that stays with me and that's like a dinner scene with the stacy family right yes i believe that's the first one okay unless they carried through the branzino joke into spider-man 2 i do think i saw both um but i only really the branzanzino stayed with me. And frankly, just the really glorious Andrew Garfield, Emma Stone relationship. That was some lovely young love. It seemed magical while they were together. And I'm grateful to these movies for that.

Is it going in the Hall of Fame? This is the biggest movie that she has made to date. Well, then, yes. Put it in the Hall of Fame. Okay. I like the first one. The second one can't go in. Okay.

All right. Okay. So, what's next? Gangster Squad. Do you remember the film Gangster Squad? Well, she's in it again with Ryan Gosling. That's correct. So, yes.

I remember that. Did you like the movie Gangster Squad? Well, she's in it again with Ryan Gosling. That's correct. So, yes, I remember that. Did you like the movie Gangster Squad? No, not really. Do you remember what it was about? It was about a squad of gangsters. That's not really what it's about. Well, they're like, they got old timey cars. No, the squad is a collection of police officers who have been

brought together to take down the gangsters. But I mean, the gangsters could also be described as a squad of gangsters. Yeah. I mean, this is a very iterative kind of rehash of a lot of the story you'd find in a movie like L.A. Confidential.

And it does have an absolutely extraordinary cast. It includes Josh Brolin, Gosling, as you mentioned, Nickolte stone of course anthony mackie giovanni rubisi michael pena and sean penn as mickey cohen in a very scenery chewing performance and we do get gosling and emma stone doing the you know humphrey bogart lauren bacall routine that's kind of what they're trying to evoke in this movie and i I would say when they're doing that thing, the movie works pretty well because they're great. The rest of the movie feels like pretty overdetermined and it looks too modern. You know how sometimes a movie that is a period piece can just look too new. It can look too digital. It can look too clean. This movie just looks too clean to me. So it didn't totally work. And I think maybe had people questioning like,

what is it that Emma Stone is doing as a, as a movie star? So she, Gangster Squad is out. She does some voice work in The Croods, which we've talked about,

which my, my boy, Roger Deakins, consulted on. Oh yeah? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, he did.

Oh right, he created The Croods or something? No, he didn't create The Croods, man. What are you talking about? I'm trying to show interest in The Croods or something? No, he didn't create the Croods, Amanda. What are you talking about? I'm trying to show interest

in the Croods and Roger Deakins and in you. Roger Deakins is a cinematographer. He does not create animated characters. What are you talking about? Like he was instrumental in the Croods. Yes, he was instrumental in the Croods. Okay. Thanks for participating

in this podcast exercise. What is the Crudes about? So they're like a family from like the Neolithic age. Is that right? I don't know if that's the particularly correct nomenclature, but they are, yes, a Neanderthal-esque, first man-esque family. And then they just have like some,

they have problems and then they just have like some, they have problems and then they solve them. That as, as all characters do in all films, they have some problems and they attempt to solve them. Emma Stone plays Eep crude. That's the name of her character. Okay. Um,

mom, daughter, aunt, grandma. She's a daughter. Uncle. Yeah. Okay.

Great. Uh, you, so you haven't seen this film? No. Why would I watch The Croods? I don't know, think about it. It's a nice film.

Like, there are like thousands of animated films that I need to watch before The Croods, I would say. That's probably true. Okay, so note to The Croods, and then of course in 2014, we get The Amazing Spider-Man 2. That's not going in. What to do with something like Magic in the Moonlight,

which is a Woody Allen film, period piece, I believe also starring Colin Firth, that I thought was like a nice movie at the time. Of course, it's much more difficult to have a conversation about the films of Woody Allen, especially the lesser films of Woody Allen. It seems odd to spend a little bit too much time on something that is ultimately a frivolity,

even at the time of its release relative to the storm of controversy around him and his family in the last few years. And also, I guess, I suppose the last 30 years. I don't necessarily think that this is an important movie, but I do think that Emma Stone was good in the movie. So I don't really know what to do with that. She's good in a lot of things that we have not put in the list. It's our Hall of Fame.

We're building it brick by brick. Magic in the Moonlight is out. No, thank you. Okay, I'm with you. Here's another interesting example of a movie I don't necessarily love, but I love the performance. Birdman or The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance.

Can you believe they released the film with that full title? I mean, I can't believe they released this film, but different conversation. There are some things I like about Birdman. I'm not totally down on Birdman. I think there are some filmmaking tactics deployed that are fascinating

and some that are a little bit overemphasized. I do think that Emma Stone's performance in particular is exceptional. I agree. I think that we should include it in particular is exceptional. I agree. I think that we should include it. Okay. We shall include Birdman or the unexpected virtue of ignorance. This is, of course, the origin of the you mock Twitter meme, which is one of my favorite

line readings and memes of the last seven years. Okay. What's next? Aloha. Jeez Louise. Nope. Jeez Louise, Amanda. Nope. Nope nope nope okay let me ask you a question though is emma stone who is not the person who should have been cast to play allison

is is she good in the film aloha john i never saw aloha oh my god are you kidding by the time it showed up i don't know i just had other things to do. And it just had a lot of problems. And I just didn't need to be there. I think Zach saw it without me because he did a story on Bradley Cooper. And that was the whole thing. And I was just like, nope. Good luck to everyone involved.

Can I read you the cast list of the film Aloha? Yeah, it's a great cast. Here's the cast. Bradley Cooper, the star of this podcast. Emma Stone, Rachel McAdams, Bill Murray, John Krasinski, Danny McBride, Alec Baldwin, Bill Camp. What more do I need to say? Written and directed by Cameron Crowe. What happened, man?

Just sometimes people make bad choices and then things really go poorly from there. And that's what happened. What a shame. Aloha is out of the Hall of Fame. Next movie, another Woody Allen film. Emma Stone, like so many actors and actresses before her, worked with the filmmaker Woody Allen multiple times, made a movie that I think is now widely mockable, but that I remember liking at the time called Irrational Man, which also starred Joaquin Phoenix as a difficult college professor. In hindsight, this film is not good. And some of it is related to the external pressures

and some of it is just related to the concept of that movie, which was not good. So Irrational Man, I presume not going in. Is it now? La La Land. love it speak on it I just you know now that La La Land didn't win the Oscar I think we can all just say like pretty fun film I I enjoyed it I really liked her performance she won an Oscar for it. So within the rules of the Hall of Fame, we should definitely include it. Once again, winning some of the old Hollywood magic that I

think Emma Stone does have, but updated in a slightly self-effacing way, which I always enjoy. You can't be too earnest or I have to crawl under a table. And reunites her once again with Ryan Gosling. They're very good together. Keep making movies together. Rewatch this movie last night. Enjoyed it quite a bit. Yeah. Uh,

Damien Chazelle, terrific filmmaker. I think it's a touch long, uh, just like Cruella. It's the touch long. Um, not totally sure that I love the songs in the film,

but I do love the choreography and I do love the performances and I do love the way that it's shot. It looks beautiful. Yes. An amazing evocation of a certain kind of romantic Los Angeles that doesn't really exist. Okay. She, of course, won best actress for that film. So it has to go in. Right. Next film. Kind of an overlooked movie in the Emma Stone canon. What do you think of Battle of the Sexes from 2017? It is sort of a Billie Jean King biopic. It's about the real life tennis match between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs in 1973. And so it's about what Billie Jean King did in terms of women in sports. And it's about tennis and it's about sexism in the 70s. And it is also about Billie Jean King's sexuality and her role as a LGBTQ icon and kind of working through all of that. I think it's it's a good but not great movie.

Like, it's just the performance is pretty good. But Steve Carell plays Bobby Riggs and is having like a lot of fun being a really sexist asshole. And that's the role that he is supposed to play. And he does it very well. But at the end of the day, you're just kind of like, wow, 70s, pretty sexist, pretty tough for Billie Jean King, which I love Billie Jean King. I'm so grateful for her. So I don't know if I would put this in. It's sad because this is like a slightly more internal performance and it's something different from what emma stone usually does and i like to reward the range but it's also not and also i think is like true to what billy

gene king is going through at the time but it's not totally what you want to see from Emma Stone. Yeah, but I think what you said is convincing to me to put it in, which is like it's a slightly different shade from her. You know, it's not, it is internal. It is a quieter role. It is a role that is a little bit more psychological. And the Bobby Riggs part of the story is, of course, very over the top. And Bobby Riggs purposefully was going very over the top in an attempt to draw attention to this event and to his career at all times. But I like what Emma Stone does in it. And even if the movie doesn't totally come together, I think it's worthy. So I would nominate it

to put it in. Will you accept? I accept. I mean, I'm just happy to talk about Billie Jean King. 2018, the favorite. Yes. Rewatch the favorite. Yes. Rewatch this movie. Dynamite film. Terrific movie. This is your ghost. Lanthimos is examination of queen and,

and her, I don't know. What would you call these ladies who served at her beck and call her, her, they're not her maids necessarily. They're not her countesses. What are those women? I guess they're ladies-in-waiting,

though I have to be honest, there are a lot of positions and names and stuff that I have not memorized, believe it or not. I actually have found better ways to use my brain in that one particular context. This film in particular highlights two distinct women, one played by Rachel Weisz and one played by Emma Stone, who attempt to court favor

with the Queen and do so in very physical fashion. Very fun, very funny movie with a terrific script by Tony McNamara. Who we should note, along with Dana Fox, did write the script for Cruella.

Yes. The film that we started this podcast with. And I think that that's probably part of the reason why Emma Stone wanted script for Cruella. Yes. The film that we started this podcast with. And I think that that's probably part of the reason why Emma Stone wanted to make Cruella is an attempt to reunite with Tony McNamara's literary flair. He writes great dialogue. He writes great sequences. Obviously, you're both Lent the most is one of the more disassociating and disturbing

filmmakers of our time. And his sense of humor shines in this movie. It does not always shine in all of his work, but it really shines in this movie. The way that the characters are shot is crazy. There's all kinds of fish eye lenses and steady cams all over the place. It's kind of a very entertaining movie

just to kind of look at without even having to hear McNamara's dialogue. Mrs. Emma Stone, I think, kind of like splitting the atom between her appeal. She is kind of evil in this movie. She is kind of scheming. But also, you're kind of rooting for her. She is the underdog and essentially the protagonist until the movie kind of turns on its head halfway through. And then you reveal maybe Rachel Weisz is the protagonist. And then you get to the end of the movie, and then you learn that the queen is actually the protagonist

of this movie. Terrific movie, terrific performance by all three of them. They all should have won Oscars. Right. Great performance by Emma Stone in Olivia Colman's Oscar acceptance speech. Emma Stone is obviously like very moved

when Olivia Colman wins and they keep cutting to her and she's so excited and it's nice. It just seems like they had a nice time making this movie. More proof that you should

cast comic actors and actresses in your serious seeming movie just makes everything so much better this movie feels like a a counterweight or a response to barry lyndon in a lot of ways i see them very similarly tonally too where it's like it seems very stiff and dry and dull but it's actually very funny okay zombie land double tap i kind of like this sequel but i don't think it's going in the hall of Fame. Okay. What do you think? I am never going to advocate for a zombie movie but

whatever you want Sean. The Crood's A New Age 2020. Didn't see it. Did you see it? I did see it. I watched the first 57 minutes of this film. What happens in The Crood's A New Age? What new age is it? Somehow they get transported to modern times. Okay.

And then there's all sorts of confusion. No, but, and yet somehow the Croods know how to speak perfect English. So there's some complications. I don't really understand how they know how to speak English. Nevertheless, um,

that leaves us with Cruella. So we have nine right now. So if you put Cruella in the Emma Stone Hall of Fame, why can't we do this together? Like, why can't this be a collective effort for building the Hall of Fame together? It can be, but that would, I think,

disturb the essential nature of this podcast. I mean, it's one of the few things that we do together, but like, if I'm reaching out and saying, Sean, let's make a decision together, just I don't know. Do we want to get to 10? She's pretty good at it. Okay. Sold. Cruella, in the Hall of Fame, do we want to get to 10 she's pretty good in it okay sold Cruella in the hall of fame do you want to have any discussion about Maniac the series I really don't but if you would like to you can just go ahead and talk to the

to the people who are listening and do you want to hear about it well very similar to Cruella in my mind which is a lot of talented people coming together for something that didn't totally work for me. Jonah Hill, Carrie Fukunaga, and Emma Stone is a Netflix miniseries of a kind. Fascinating premise, looks cool, just didn't totally click for me. And Emma Stone's had a bunch of those.

You know, she's had a bunch of projects like that despite being such a charismatic presence on screen. I don't know. I mean, so do most people. Once you actually sit down and look at anyone who's eligible for a Hall of Fame, there've been a lot of misses. You got to try things. That's okay. Who should we do next in a Hall of Fame episode? I had a really good idea the other day, and then you didn't put in the outline, and so I forgot it. Ingmar Bergman? Sure.

That would be like a fun, lighthearted, you know, lots of jokes podcast. That's just what the people are looking for. Who's in the French dispatch? Let's take a quick look and see if we can zero in. Bill Murray, obviously. I mean, the thing is, would you rather do a top five for Wes Anderson, a Hall of Fame? I guess he's only made about 10 films. Yeah, you can't really do it.

Just put all of them in. Very quickly, here's the cast of the French Dispatch for you. Benicio Del Toro, Adrian Brody, Tilda Swinton, Leah Seydoux, Francis McDormand, Timothy Chalamet, Jeffrey Wright, Matthew Almaric, Bill Murray, Owen Wilson, Liev Schreiber, Elizabeth Moss, Edward Norton, Willem Dafoe, Saoirse Ronan, Christoph Waltz, Jason Schwartzman, Henry Winkler, Bob Balaban, and Angelica Houston. Can I just tell you, I recently reread, not reread, I recently read Angelica Houston's second memoir because she has two. One's about growing up in Ireland with John Houston and the other is just about Jack Nicholson

in the 70s. Believe it or not, I read option two. Incredible stuff. She doesn't have enough to do a Hall of fame, but, uh, I really recommend it. If you haven't read it. I, well, you know, maybe we should do a book club at some point this summer too. That's another good idea. I haven't read that book. Of course, I'm fascinated by Angelica Houston, the Houston family, and certainly Jack Nicholson in the seventies. So I'll fire that one up. I think I have it on my shelf back here. Uh, any final lasting thoughts on Emma Stone, Cruella,

MGM and Amazon, all all the myriad topics we discussed here on this podcast I'm excited for movies to be back none of the giant streaming services may be that excited about movies they may be more excited about you know 40 part IP whatever but movies are coming back and I like movies So I'm ending it on this note of positivity. It's a perfect segue to teasing our next conversation. Next week on the show, we will talk about our return to movie theaters. Amanda and I watched Cruella at Home, but we watched A Quiet Place Part Two in a movie theater. I've actually seen a couple of other movies in a movie theater since then. And so we'll talk about the experience of it. What was it like

going back to A Quiet Place Part 2 work? What do we think its success or lack of success relative to the box office success means for movies like that to succeed? How can movie theaters change in the future? A whole bunch of other topics. Should be fun. In the meantime, of course, thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode

and all of our shows, and we'll see you next week.