The Big Picture - David Lowery on Directing Robert Redford's Final Film, 'The Old Man and the Gun' | The Big Picture (Ep. 86)

Episode Date: September 28, 2018

Ringer Editor-in-Chief Sean Fennessey is rejoined by filmmaker David Lowery to discuss his new movie 'The Old Man and the Gun,' directing Robert Redford in his final performance, and his knack for crafting modern-day fables. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelley. Here's what ringer content you should be looking out for before the end of the week. From the star of Slow News Day, check out Kevin Clark's new video series, Worst Picks of the Week, where he offers up the worst NFL and pop culture bets each week. This will be up every Thursday throughout the NFL season, and you can watch on YouTube, Facebook, or Twitter. Also, up on the site, we have two pieces on The Good Place, and Juliette Lippman is writing about the 20-year anniversary of Felicity. Check it out on TheRinger.com. You know, he says never say never, and I'm glad he's saying that. He definitely wants to focus to be on the movie and not on his retirement, but if he is going to hang up his hat, I'm glad that he's happy enough with this film to feel like this was the film they could go out on.

I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. Today's guest is a maker of fables. From Ain't Them Bodies Saints to Pete's Dragon to last year's supernatural drama A Ghost Story, David Lowery is one of our foremost fairy tale tellers. His new movie is a true story, but it's also a fable of its own. It's called The Old Man and the Gun, and it's based on the journalist David Grand's chronicle of Forrest Tucker, a bank robber and prison escape artist who plied his trade well into his 70s. The Old Man and the Story's title is played by the great Robert Redford in what he says is his final on-screen performance, capping one of the great careers in Hollywood history.

David Lowery came by this week to talk about sending off Redford, finding the fiction in a true story, and what great movie star he wants to work with next. Here's David Lowery. I'm delighted to be joined by the first return guest since we launched this show in January 2017. It's David Lowery. David, thanks for coming back. It's great to be back. David, you got a new film. It's wonderful. I loved it. It's called The Old Man and the Gun. Where did this story come from for you? It was sent to me by Robert Redford's producing partner as a potential starring vehicle for him. And he had seen this film I made called

Ain't the Body of Saints. And he was interested in whether I might have a take on an adaptation of this article. And so I, you know, you get a call asking if Robert Redford, you know, it might be of interest to you as an actor to work with. You say yes. And so I, you know, you get a call asking if Robert Redford, you know, it might be of interest to you as an actor to work with. You say yes. And so I read the article and it just felt like the quintessential Redford role. You know, just reading it, it was, the article is too good to be true. It's one of those stories that just, you know, I couldn't believe it hadn't already been made into a movie. It felt like a film reading it.

And it felt like a role that he was born to play. So it was just an easy yes for me. Had you, were you familiar with David Grand's work, The Writer of the Story? Did you know that book that it was adapted from? I was familiar with him from Lost City of Z, which I loved. And I'd read a couple other pieces, but I didn't know him as well as I know him now. And now I wait with bated breath for his new pieces. But at the time, I was just kind of connecting the dots, thinking, oh, this is by this guy who wrote this other piece that I really like. And so it was exciting.

But now looking back, I'm like, oh, it was really lucky to get a chance to grab this one. Had Redford optioned the story? Is that why he was having it go around? Yeah, he was involved in optioning. I can't remember exactly the chain of connections that led to him having it, but it was definitely something that he had read. I think he was aware of Forrest Tucker

before the article even, back when he was making headlines in his heyday. And he probably had filed it away as a character that he might want to play someday. What was the challenge of it for you? Why this movie next after the handful of films that you've previously done? Well, it was weird because I signed on to this immediately after The Mighty Saints played at Sundance. And so there was a very clear connection there.

Bank robbers, Texas, outlaws, mythology of the Old west, all of those things made sense but then I made Pete's Dragon and then Old Man and the Gun was supposed to happen right afterwards but it pushed a little bit and so I made a ghost story and so I changed a lot over the course of the four years between getting the job and the time we actually started shooting

and what was important to me about the story evolved as well initially I wanted to make a really great outlaw movie starring Robert Redford. By the time I got around to shooting it, I was not as interested in making a true crime film. I wanted to honor this character and the story and David Grand's journalism, but I definitely had realized by that point that the type of thing I'm good at is not telling a nuts and bolts cops and robbers film. I love those movies. I love the genre. I will watch

Michael Mann movies all day long till the day I die, but I couldn't make one for the life of me because it's just not my skillset. And so I really had to do a lot of digging to figure out what it was that appealed to me about it. Like, why did I want to hang on to this movie? Why didn't I, why couldn't I let it go? And the answer was that I wanted to make a Robert Redford movie. I wanted to make a movie that in some ways was about him. He is an actor who has always been in the public eye and on screen and outlaw. He's always been an iconoclast. He's always done things his own way and gone up against institutions. And I think that's one of the reasons he is the star that he is. And I wanted to make a film that, that harnessed that and utilized it and gave him a great role to dig into, but also took advantage of all the history and the

weight that he brings with him. I want to talk a little bit more about Redford, but you said that you changed a bit in the time between this film and your first film, or I guess your second film in this film, and also that you figured out what you were good at. So I'm curious how you changed and then what you also figured out about your filmmaking and the kinds of films that you're better at making. I'm really good at narrowing my focus. You know, the early drafts of this film covered decades and really tried to represent the full scope

of Forrest Tucker's life. And I realized like that's very often not the type of movie I want to go see. Citizen Kane does it really well, but I can't think of that many other films that really can encompass an entire life. And so I learned that I'm good at focusing on something and really kind of digging into as minimal amount of content as I possibly can and exploring that.

Like exploding in a single moment is really exciting to me, but trying to capture a cascade of moments is less interesting so that was one thing and then I also just I realized that I'm I'm always drawn to to fairy tales to fantasy to things that are just slightly set apart from reality maybe that seems surprising given the movies I've made but when I look at all of them they all feel like that like Ain't the Body of Saints was meant to feel like a Western fairy tale. Pete's Dragon obviously has that quality. A Ghost Story does as well.

And so when I lean into mythology and myth-making, it's really with a capital M. I'm looking for the slightly less tied-to-reality version of these stories. I want to tap into some ethos that is just slightly separated from the real world around us. And it took me a little while to realize that. But as I made these movies, I realized that's what I was always drawn to. And as a filmmaker, as a film goer, I'm drawn to those as well. I really love haunted house movies. I love fantasy films. I love Guillermo del Toro movies, Tim Burton. Those were things that really spoke to me when I was really young. And I realized that I'm just doing my own version of that type of movie now. It's interesting. When I was watching the movie, I wrote down in all caps, fable, you know, that was the word that kept coming across my mind.

And the last two films that you've made this sort of ethereal existentialist story, and then a story about a dragon, you know, those are obviously also reasonable fables. This movie is based on journalism. It's based on a true person who lived. Was it important to you to reflect the truth as much as you could? How much of that were you kind of bending and pulling at? I bent and pulled at it a lot.

And I, at the same time, felt a certain degree of responsibility because I was representing someone's true story. And I did a little bit of journalism. I talked to some folks who were involved in the real case and, and especially the real John Hunt, uh, who was very instrumental in like my research and getting a sense of what not only that particular case was like, but also what it was like to be a cop in 1981. And at the same time, I also, you know, knew that Forrest Tucker was someone who self

mythologized a lot. And you read the article and you see that loud and clear. He saw himself as an outlaw, not in the tradition of, you know, Dillinger or Pretty Boy Floyd, but as the versions of Dillinger and Pretty Boy Floyd that he saw in the movies, the actors playing them. And so I felt that if I could make this movie, the version of the movie that he saw in his head, not only would that be more accurate to the version that he would have been happy with, and not only would that be the best version for Robert Redford to play, but it also allowed me to be a little bit more fast and loose with the facts and not feel guilty about that. So I just embraced that.

I embraced that more, as you use the term fable, the more fablist version of the story, and that felt right to me. Tell me about directing Redford, because he obviously a huge figure in the film industry sundance everything we know but also a writer a filmmaker and an iconic movie star are you doing a lot in the moment especially since he brought he and his people brought the project to you does he have this defined vision of what he's doing or are you

able to shape everything and say do this i think he has some perspective on it that it's already pre-defined especially with this project because it was something he'd been wanting to do Are you able to shape everything and say, do this? I think he has some perspective on it that it's already predefined, especially with this project, because it was something he'd been wanting to do. But at the same time, I learned this on Pete's Dragon. When he comes to set as an actor, he is there to act. He has his ideas and he has the things he wants to try out, but he is 100% willing to let a director shape his performance.

And that was an enormous gift to me because not only on Pete's Dragon was I directing him for the first time, but it was the first time I had worked with anyone of his stature. It was the first time working with a legend and I was very, very nervous. And it was so nice of him to just put me at ease so quickly

and to let me direct him and to take that direction. And every now and then he would, you know, remind me that, like, there was one instance that was very instructive in which I, we did a take of, I can't remember what scene it was, but we did a take. And on take two, I asked him to do it a little bit differently and to try something out. And he said, I did that already. You just weren't paying attention, but nonetheless, he did it. You know. He was a good actor. He took my instruction. And that night I went home and watched the dailies. And sure enough, he had done exactly that on take one.

And it was a great reminder that he's been doing this for a long time. He knows what he's doing. And then it was my job not only to give him direction, but to pay attention to what he's doing. And it was a beautiful little moment where I just like, oh, yeah, I need to focus more. I need to pay more I need to like pay attention and to give that to him because he's giving so much to me um but you know he he's he loves staying in his lane he loves letting me be the director and to not have to worry about that type of thing he didn't worry about where the camera was he didn't worry about you know he knew

what we were shooting each day he knew his lines but he wasn't really too concerned with the way in which we were telling the story on a formal level. One time I caught him off in the corner of the room looking over the storyboards, but I think he was just curious how many shots we had left that day. That's funny. What's your quintessential Redford? What's your favorite performance of his? It's really tough.

I always say that my favorite film of his is Downhill Racer. And so as a result, I probably would just go to that as my favorite Redford performance. One of the things I love about that is so many of those iconic moments like the one with the gum or when he honks the horn, that was just him improvising on set. And it really defined for me his character, you know, not only his character, but also him as an actor. And those were the things that I was excited about playing with in Old Man and the Gun. And to find out that that was just all him was really, really thrilling. That's so interesting

because his character in Downhill Racer is such a bastard. He's horrible, yeah. And this character is obviously a criminal but he's incredibly charming. There's so much

self-knowledge of Redford doing the movie star thing where every time he's in the frame you're like, god damn, this guy's cool. It's sort of the flip

of Downhill Racer where Downhill Racer is all rough edges but that charm is still there. Here we've got the charm. And I wanted to make sure that we didn't completely sand down the edges completely, that we let a little bit of that roughness that made that character so terrible still shine

through because he did hurt people. He did break hearts. He did point a gun at people and steal their money. So he wasn't like the greatest guy in the world by any means, but he did, I think, have like a gentlemanly spirit and he didn't see himself as a villain by any means, but he did, I think, have a gentlemanly spirit and he didn't see himself as a villain by any means. That's interesting. So how do you pick projects now? Because your last three films in particular are about as different as you can have, even though they're thematically kind of bound, the structure of them, the shape of them,

I suspect the budgets of them are all different. So how are you going about kind of setting the arc of your own career at this stage? I don't think about it too much. Like I, for better or worse, I'm not very careerist when I'm thinking about the movies I'm choosing. It does come into play sometimes. You want to make movies that people go see and you want to be able to get the budgets you need to tell the stories that you want to tell.

But I also don't really look at things in terms of do I want to make a studio movie? Do I want to make an indie movie. I never think in that capacity. I think about the types of movies I'm interested in, and then I just try to execute them the best way possible. And when something like Pete's Dragon comes my way, it fit a box of something I wanted to do. I wanted to make a family film. I wanted to make a fantasy film. And I was given the license to do that because we had a title that you know Disney

wanted to exploit they were like you know their idea there was like make an original film just use the title Pete's Dragon and so these opportunities that come my way like that give me the chance to you know tell stories on a larger canvas that I might not have been able to on a budget like Old Man and the Gun or Ghost Story, but to me, they're not left turns. They are movies that I just want to make. And so even though my body of work has a degree of unpredictability to it, it doesn't feel that way for me.

If we're looking at it from the outside, I'm always like, this probably feels really strange and surprising. If I were to announce tomorrow that I was going to do a musical, I could easily go back to saying, well, actually, the first movie, the first I made ain't the Bison's because I really wanted a chance to make Le Mis, the movie, and Tom Hooper beat me to it. And so it all makes sense. But from an outside perspective, that would totally feel like, where did that come from? Yeah, that level of unpredictability is fun, though. It's fun to see kind of what you're working on.

Are you working on something right now? Yeah, that level of unpredictability is fun though. It's fun to see kind of what you're working on. Are you working on something right now? Yeah, I've got a movie. I don't want to talk too much about it because I don't want to jinx it, but I've got a movie that is probably like another left turn, but is something I'm really excited about. And it's, you know, I guess you could say it's in the spirit of a ghost story,

but it's on a much bigger scale. And I'm shocked that we might get the chance to go make it. Okay, that's tantalizing. Hopefully that happens soon. And then I've got another Disney movie that I want to make. And I've been working on a script with them for a couple years, and I think we're finally at a point where we all are in agreement that it's at the right stage.

It still needs a little bit of work, but I'm happy to do that work. And it's at a point now where I feel like it's ready. I'm ready to make it. Let's take a quick break from my conversation with David Lowery to hear a word from our sponsor. This week's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Miller Lite. Summer may be over, but it is still very hot in California right now. And so there's nothing more refreshing than a cool Miller Lite. Miller Lite is the great tasting light beer with only 96 calories and 3.2 grams of carbs, that's fewer calories and half the carbs of Bud Light. So there's really nothing

more to talk about. If you have a real argument, let me hear it. Until then, stick with Miller Lite. Miller Lite, hold true. Okay, now back to my conversation with David Lowery. One thing that I end up thinking about because of what I do is sort of like the narrativizing that comes with every filmmaker's movie. You've had a few now where there's kind of an interesting story to tell. One of the things that has emerged about this one is that Redford is retiring from film acting. Is that something that you knew when you guys were making this movie that this was going to be his final performance more than likely? He announced that in an interview a few weeks or a few months before we started shooting.

Like we were in prep and it was news to me. That had never come up. I got a lot of text messages. All of a sudden, it was like, what's going on? Did you know about this? And the answer was no, I had no idea. I definitely felt a sense of pressure that hadn't been there before, but I also knew that I had to ignore that pressure. I couldn't let that influence the choices we were making.

This movie certainly was meant to feel like a spiritual successor to some of his earliest classics, and it was perhaps meant to have a sort of bookend feel, but it wasn't meant to be the last will and testament of Robert Redford on screen, and I didn't want it to become that. So I just never thought about it. Do you have conversations that are like that?

Will he say to you, I feel like this could be a great book end of my career? Or is it never that literal? No, it's never that literal. I mean, he definitely liked this project because it was in conversation with those earlier roles. He certainly saw that. And he felt that this was a continuation of some of the things he'd done early in his career. He hadn't played a literal outlaw in quite a few years at this point.

And so I think it was exciting for him to just step back into those shoes but we never talked about with any sense of finality there was one time on set where you know the scene where he's riding a horse in the movie which is about as quintessential robert redford movie as you can a scene as you can get afterwards i said you know if you stick to your plans you're never gonna have to ride a horse on screen again and i could tell like that was was probably the first time he'd thought about that throughout the entire production. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe I'm reading into it. But it just felt like that kind of caught him by surprise. And I guess I saw him think about it and be like, huh, yeah, you're right. But it was, by and large, not on our minds until now. He's talked about it again. And he says, never say never. And I'm glad he's saying that. He definitely wants the, to be on the movie and not on his retirement. But

if he is going to hang up his hat, I'm glad that he's happy enough with this film to feel like it's, you know, this was the film that he'd go out on. You get a pretty iconic shot of him on that horse and that final, I don't want to give anything away, but let's talk about the filmmaking a little bit, because one of my favorite parts about it is the music in the movie, which is very insistent and even more so, I think, than your other movies. There's a lot of, it's almost jazzy.

It's very, very present, propulsive. Yeah, so why that decision to put all the music in the film? You know, we cut the movie without any music at all. That's always my approach. It's like you don't use temp score until unless you have to. I got a certain point on Pete's Dragon You don't use temp score unless you have to. I got a certain point on Pete's Dragon we had to use temp score because we didn't have our

finished one yet and we had to do a test screening. So you sometimes have to, but it's important to me to find the internal rhythm of the film, to use the film itself as your meter and to really listen to that pace that's coming through as you're editing it rather than just slather with music from the get-go and use it as a crutch. I wanted something percussive in the movie. I wanted the movie to sound fun and to have that spirit that you get from a classic like Henry Mancini's score

or what Miles Davis did for Elevator to the Gallows. It still has a mournful quality in that film, for sure, but it's got this pace to it that sort of makes you just prick up your ears a little bit. And it was also something new, you know, Daniel Hart, who's done all of my films, he's never done anything that's jazz influenced. And I certainly haven't. And we just wanted to push outside of our comfort zone in every way with this movie. And that went from, you know, the music all the way to the production design to the number of takes I was doing. I was always trying to just push myself outside my comfort zone with this movie to see what happened.

And so we just tried jazz, and it felt right. It had an upbeat quality to it, but also when it got meditative or soulful, it really just was a different type than what we've done before. It would have been really easy to just go folksy like we did with Ain't Nobody Saints, but we felt like this needed something different. So he would just write music. He usually writes music for almost the entire movie. He'll write music for every scene,

and then I just sort of try it out in its intended place, and sometimes it works perfectly. Sometimes it needs revision. Sometimes we realize the scene doesn't need music, and we pull it out. Other times we just use pieces that are not intended for one spot and another and

you just sort of listen to it a lot. You just put the music in and listen to it until it feels right. We got feeling pretty good and then the movie had to come out so we stopped. It works really well and you have this great needle drop with blues around the game. One of the best songs ever. What was the thinking with putting that song in the movie had to come out so we stopped. Yeah, I mean it works really well and you have this great needle drop with Blues Run the Game, which is one of the best songs.

Best songs ever, yeah. What was the thinking with putting that song in the movie? I discovered Jackson C. Frank vis-a-vis the Brown Bunny soundtrack. It's in one of those long scenes where Vincent Gallo's driving across the country and I just loved it. And so I've dug up his record

and I think in the years since, I think that song's been used in TV a few times. And so it's more well known now than it was when I discovered it. It has like a Spotify cult kind of like, I feel like a lot of people are just kind of discovering it on playlists from just having more access to music like that lately. Which is great. I'm glad that he's getting the attention now.

His Jackson to Frank story is like a, I think there's a documentary coming out about him in fact, called blues around Blues Run the Game because his story is so sad. But in any case, that song was always part of the movie. From the very first draft onward, it was always written into the script. And it was just an intrinsic part of the film to me. It just felt like the character of Forrest Tucker. It had the yearning, the aspirational quality, and also the sadness that I felt the true character really would have had. Less so the character in the movie, but the character in real life had this sadness to him, both objectively and subjectively. And I felt that the song allowed us to get into that zone, even though, for the most part, the character remains upbeat and unflappable. It was really one of those things that I was ready to walk away from the movie from

if we couldn't get that song. So it was always a part of it. Wow. Is that the first time you've done that? Do you often put specific records? No, I never do needle drops. You know, all my movies have had songs in them, but they've been written specifically for the film. Like Pete's Dragon had Will Oldham and St. Vincent

and all those pieces of music were written for the movie or at least covers like Saint Vincent did a cover for us and so in this case I wanted to lean a little bit more on needle drops and to have those moments where you hear a song that you know and you get that that delicious satisfaction when a song you really like shows up while watching a movie that you're also enjoying and so of course, The Kinks did that. Having Scott Walker in there does that for me. I love hearing Scott Walker in a movie. And then Blues Run the Game, which is the real capper.

Do you also watch movies before you start making something and say, I want to capture the feeling of this or show it to your cast and crew? Or is it outside of the realm of previous work? We don't really do cast and crew screenings. I always loved that idea, but it's always been hard. We haven't had those Tarantino budgets yet where we can rent out a movie theater and show everybody every weekend we watch a new print together.

I'd love to do that. That'd be a dream. But I watch a lot of movies. I'm always watching movies. I watch movies constantly. And while we're in. That'd be a dream. But, you know, I watch a lot of movies. I'm always watching movies. I watch movies constantly. And while we're in production, I, like, make a point, like, if I don't watch a movie every weekend, I'm doing something wrong. I just need to keep that, you know, that love of cinema alive while you're going through the process of creating it. And so there were things that I would recommend our crew take a look at, particularly production design and cinematography.

Those departments really had a list of movies that I was suggesting. One movie I haven't talked about a lot, but that I know was a big influence for Joe Anderson RDP was Sugarland Express. There's a couple of direct nods to that, but nonetheless, the quality of that cinematography was something that we were really looking for

with this. You can see that in the car chases for sure. Oh, totally. Yeah, completely. I mean, when you have a long line of cop cars, that's totally just Sugarland Express all the way. It was in Pete's Dragon too. For production design, I remember recommending that Scott Cusio look at

Playtime, the Jacques Tati movie. Because we were trying to figure out, how do we make these banks look distinctive? How do we do something that's not just a functional bank, but that has bank with a capital B? They're slightly removed from reality. And so the office building in Playtime felt like a nice touchstone. And that informed the costume design as well, because you get that kind of monochrome gray

that just runs through that entire sequence and that movie, that entire movie. So would you just go and scout unusually shaped buildings and then convert them into banks? Because there are some unlikely storefronts that represent the banks in the movie. Most of them are actually banks. Like we were shot, you know, the banks are a mixture of Cincinnati,

Waco, Texas, and Fort Worth, Texas. So I think the vast majority of them are in Fort Worth, Texas. But the one, the Rainy Day robbery, Texas, and Fort Worth, Texas. So I think the vast majority of them are in Fort Worth, Texas. But the one, the Rainy Day robbery, the big set piece robbery, that was in Cincinnati. Or actually, outside Cincinnati in this town called Bethel, Ohio. And we had been looking at a lot of more Western-y looking banks. And that one just felt so 80s. It just felt like an office building. It had this sort of like brutalist glass structure. I don't know if you

can be brutalist and still have that much glass, but nonetheless, it just, that's what it felt like to us. And it was all gray and silver and it was also empty. It was, it had been a bank, but it hadn't been used in a number of years. So we were able to just take it over and treat it like a soundstage. Um, we were always looking for interesting-looking banks, but they weren't hard to find. It was interesting how easy it was to find these really cool old things that looked from the front like a Masonic temple, but was in fact a bank or things like that.

Yeah, they're like geometric sculptures or something. Yeah, very few of them were not banks. There was one that was a hospital in Fort Worth, and there was, I think, a couple exteriors that weren't actually banks. But by and large, they were all real. And we kind of went through every possible bank in Cincinnati and across the river in Kentucky that we could possibly find. And then in Fort Worth, I think in the downtown Fort Worth area,

we shot in every possible bank that we could find there just to really run the you know run the gamut of banks for all these montages and sequences but um that was that was a fun part of the process like going out and just looking at them all and finding them tell me a little bit about the cast because aside from Redford and Casey Affleck who I've now worked with on several films in a row there's a lot of very famous people in this movie you know I haven't seen Tom Waits in a row. There's a lot of very famous people in this movie. You know, I haven't seen Tom Waits in a long time. It's very cool to see Tom Waits. Danny Glover, Sissy Spacek, of course.

Like, it's a really wonderful cast. And they're relatively small parts. So how did you put this group together? Sissy was someone who I wrote the script for before I knew her. I just was thinking, like, who would I want to see opposite Robert Redford? Who would go toe-to-to Robert Redford? Who would go toe to toe with him? Who would both fall for him, but also keep him on his toes? And Sissy just instantly came to mind. I've been such a huge fan of hers for so long that it felt relatively easy to write it for her, even though I hadn't ever met her.

Had they been on screen before? I couldn't think of a time. Barely even met. Wow. Sissy remembers meeting him. Bob does not remember the meeting. It was so, it was like in a casting director's office. They crossed paths once in the sixties when they were both doing Michael Ritchie movies. In fact, unbelievable. Um, is that prime cut? Prime cut for her. And he was, uh, just finishing. I was, I think prime cut was between downhill racer and the candidate. So it was right in that period. I sent it to her and she read it. And I

don't think she said yes right away, but nonetheless, I just felt like, okay, this is going to work out. Like I just knew that she was going to do it and it was going to be perfect. And she had wonderful insights into the script. It got better because of her notes. And it's been such a joy

just getting to know her as a person, much less work with her as a director. You know, I love just hanging out with her. With Tom and Danny, those parts are like incredibly small. They were even smaller on the page. I really didn't know, there were drafts of the movie that didn't have the over the hill gang, but I ultimately felt like that's part of the true story. That's what Forrest Tucker was known for. I need to acknowledge them. So I wrote these characters in and they're based on real names, at least.

John Waller and Teddy Green were part of the game, and Teddy Green was there on Forrest Tucker's front porch when he was ultimately arrested. But by and large, they're made up, and I really just wanted to cast really great actors who could lend a sense of history to these otherwise very minor parts. I wanted the sense of history that Redford has even, you know, and they, they carry that with them wherever they

go. So Danny was someone I thought of just because I've always loved him. I think I saw him for the first time when I was really little and lonesome dove. And then of course, just to follow his, you know, then discovered lethal weapons as everyone does. And then I've really admired what he's done lately in terms of like making these movies so he can put money into really challenging foreign films like the Lucretia Martel movies that he's produced, the Apeachapong Virasethical movies that I love so much. I love seeing his name in the credits of those as an executive producer. So I've just, he's a hero. I admire him and I wanted the chance to not only work with him, but again, just talk to him about those movies. And Tom, I mean, what can you say? Like it's Tom Waits. I discovered him in Bram Stoker's Dracula when I was 10 years old. And from his performances, Renfield in that movie discovered his music and have been a fan for so long. I didn't think he would do the movie. I was like, let's just send it to him.

And it turns out he had seen Ain't Nobody Saints and really liked it. And we got on the phone, and in the phone call, he said he's not, he was like, I'm not going to do the movie. I just want to talk to you about it. And I was like, okay, cool. I just want to talk to you about this. This is great.

One of the things he said on that phone call was, he's like, I'm, when talking about why he wasn't going to do the film, he's like, I'm 67 years old. Got to figure out what my next score is. And I was like, I'm going to write that in the script. I'm taking that completely into the conversation, even with him saying he was going to turn it down, but that for some reason he was going to keep the door open at the same time.

And so a few weeks later, I sent him a new draft that just had a little bit more meat on the bones. And ultimately he said yes. And next thing I know, Tom Waits was showing up on set and I was hanging out in his trailer and he was talking to me about how he wanted his hair to be as white as Lee Marvin's. And there's nothing I can say other than

that was a complete dream come true. I can't believe I got to just hang out with him. The monologue that he has in the movie was, as far as I know, a 100% true Tom Waits story. Really? Yeah. That's definitely one of my favorite parts of the movie. It's like, me too. And you can't justify that in a narrative level, but the movie would not be as good without it. Totally. It has nothing to do with the plot, but it's one of those moments that makes you like the movie more. Absolutely. It's funny. I just saw the new Coen Brothers film

and he's in that too. And I still have this double shot of Tom Waits after having not seen him in a movie for 10 years. I hear he's like, it's just 15 minutes of just Tom Waits. It's just him. Yeah, it's fantastic. You'll love it. So I guess I'm curious,

like now that you've made all of these kinds of movies and you're working on this next kind of film, what's most important to you? Is it a story that originates with you or is it something that, you know, this was an adaptation. Pete's Dragon is a kind of an adaptation and imagining. Where do you want the bulk of your creative time to go in the future towards things that you are brainstorming or that are you willing

to be for hire as well? I would rather not just be for hire. Like that's not as interesting to me. I've done a lot of adaptations at this point, more adaptations than not. And I think of the things coming up, one of them technically is an adaptation and then the Disney movie has definitely got source material behind it. But I treat them as if they were original stories. I have to go into them with that in mind and I have to find that personal way in. And if someone was to bring me, you know, if someone had brought me Old Man the Gun without Robert Redford attached, I wouldn't have been interested. It was just like, that's not, you know, that's not my cup of tea. It was him that

made it really appealing. And so it really just depends on the projects. People send me screenplays and I always read them and I'm always open to doing something that I have not written. But even if I were to find exactly the right script, I think I would always open to doing something that I have not written. But even if I were to find exactly the right script, I think I would just have to retype it all. You know, I'd have to like, that's my way into the story. And you know, there are times where like, I feel like I would like to do something for hire. Like for example, when I was talking about a ghost story, I kept talking about how much I love the conjuring part two. And while talking about that, I was like, you know what? If they offered me The Conjuring Part 3, I probably would do it.

And they didn't. But nonetheless... I think we talked about this last year. Yeah, there are those movies where I feel like I would jump at the chance to just be part of that machine or to just take my hat off as David Lowery and just be the director for hire and subjugate myself to that

willingly. But by and large, I mean, maybe that would be a disaster. I don't know. It'd be interesting to find out. It would be, I would like to do it as an experiment at some point, but, um, but for the time being, I'm approaching everything, whether it's an adaptation or not, as if it's like, as if it's something that's coming from me. Is there another actor or actress on the Robert Redford kind of bucket list that you'd really like to do something with? Maybe you want to put on the world?

I mean, I really want to work with Brad Pitt. And I feel like it's interesting. I've been thinking about it a lot lately because I've been meeting actors for this new film and while doing press for this one with Robert Redford. So I think a lot about the comparison between movie stars then when he became a movie star and movie stars now, and this is not meant to denigrate any of the wonderful young stars we have now, but I think there's like a sense of arrested adolescence with, with actors now, like with,

with the type of actor that becomes a star, they aren't stars in the way that Redford was. So I feel in a way they need another 20 years before they get to where he is, where he was when he was like 29 or 30. I feel like Brad Pitt now at, you know, in his fifties is where Redford was when he was in his thirties. And I'd love to go back and watch spy game now and just see the two of them, you know,

at that, at those two of them, you know, at those two respective points in their careers, see how that feels, whether I'm onto something or not. I don't know. And of course, now Brad Pitt's at a point where he doesn't really want

to act as much anymore. He's very choosy with his role. So I don't know if he'll ever, he's not going to hit that point. It's different. The trajectories are different. And with actors who are in their 20s and early 30s now,

the expectations are different. The type of thing that people want to see when they go to the movies is different so i don't know if if there are movie stars like robert redford who aren't robert redford but i do really want to work with brad pitt so i'm going to put that out in the universe that's great you guys would make a great movie together uh david you said you still watch a lot of movies because you're starting trying to stay engaged i end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen? So what's the last great thing you've seen? High Life by Claire Denis.

Oh, I have not seen it yet. Tell us about that. It was the one movie I wanted to see the most at Toronto and made a point of arranging my schedule so that I could go see it. She's one of my favorite filmmakers. I've just adored her since I think the first film I saw was Beau Travail, or maybe Trouble Every Day, either way, whichever one was first. I just completely fell for what she does with storytelling, what she does with a camera, the way she finds these strange patterns in the

narratives and just leans into those more than the narrative itself. And the affection she has for her characters, the tenderness, the sweetness that comes through, even in something like Trouble Every Day, which is absolutely a disgusting, horrifying, cannibal movie. High Life is exactly what I wanted out of a Claire Denis science fiction movie. I had been told in advance that it was incredibly violent, that it was really ugly, that it was brutal. But it really, I mean, it was in some ways, but it's also very, very tender and very sweet. And I came out of it just thinking, like, this is just interstellar with more bodily fluids. It reminded me a lot of interstellar and I would love to go see a double bill of those two. That's a fantastic answer. David, thank you so

much for doing this. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thanks again for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. If you want more movies, please check out the Rewatchables podcast. This week we are exploring the 20th anniversary of Dazed and Confused, one of the all-time great casts in movie history. So please check that out and check us out next week on The Big Picture.