The Big Picture - ‘Deadpool & Wolverine’ Is Here. Is Marvel Back?

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

Sean and Amanda are joined by three out of four of the Midnight Boys—Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, and Jomi Adeniran—to have a deep-dive conversation about Marvel’s big 2024 bet: ‘Deadpool & Wolverine.’ They discuss the somewhat convoluted plot of the movie (5:00), what they liked and didn’t like about it (11:00), what audience it’s aiming for (16:00), whether or not Marvel is back on the right track (1:00:00), and more. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get all your NFL and fantasy football needs at the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. Is it kind of lame? All your fantasy football needs. I need fantasy football. Have all your fantasy football and NFL and all other types of needs met at the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. Yeah, that's it. Have needs? We got you at the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify.

Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture Conversation Show about Deadpool and Wolverine.

We are joined today by three very special guests from the Ringerverse, the Midnight Boys. Three-fourths of the Midnight Boys. Van Latham, Charles Holmes, Joe Miedenaran. What's up, guys? How are you? What's going on? Feeling great. Yeah, I'm feeling great. Are you guys nervous? Are you nervous about this podcast? No.

Wait, why should we be nervous? Is this going to be... Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is this going to be a jumping? No. Are we getting jumped into the big picture set? Big homie Sean Fennessey. Bobby just came out with the chains. You know what I'm saying?

The fucking brass knuckles. What kind of hat do y'all wear in LA? Because every gang in LA has a hat. What kind of hat do y'all wear? Is it Baltimore for big picture? Like, what's the deal? I wear a cowboy hat on my own, but it's a white hat

because I'm the hero of movie podcasting. You're the villain of movie podcasting? We got a villain on this pod. Yeah, we do. I'm the hero of movie podcasting. Wow. You're the villain of movie podcasting? We got a villain on this pod. Yeah, we do. I'm Black Glenn Powell. That's who I am. They used to call him Colin. His name is Colin Powell.

We're doing this podcast because movies have been in a complicated state, especially franchise and comic book movies. You guys cover this very closely on the show. Our name has been in your mouth a few times, I noticed i'm an avid listener of the show you had some thoughts these are fighting words what's going on i thought well i'm a huge

fan of the work that you guys do i don't know if you can say the same about us but i will say uh this feels like a critical moment in this project that the big picture has been doing for seven almost eight years you guys have been doing how long you've been doing the midnight boys now three three years three years three

years so Deadpool and Wolverine the only Marvel movie that is being released this year hugely anticipated by four fifths of this podcast yes I don't know that number might go up

we'll talk about the movie in depth this will be a complete spoiler episode and it will be I don't know. That number might go up. We'll talk about the movie in depth. This will be a complete spoiler episode and it will be a two-part episode. The second half of this episode will appear on the Midnight Boys feed. And the question is, are you guys nervous to be on the Midnight Boys feed?

Are you nervous? No. I mean, I was born in it, man. The thing that... Long-time listeners of this show know that I love comic book movies if done well. I'm not a was born in it, man. The thing that long-time listeners of this show know that I love comic book movies, if done well. I'm not averse to this frame at all. I love the conversations that you guys have.

As Amanda knows, I was fucking pumped for Deadpool and Wolverine. I'm a little less pumped today than I was before I saw the film. Less tough. I would just like to say it's an honor to get to eventually be on the Midnight feed and this this episode is on the big picture this episode and then the next episode i'm just really excited i haven't been asked um and i love everything that you do but sometimes i also feel that my perspective is maybe lacking so you know i think we're going to,

whenever we all come together, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of building and a lot of healing. So I'm looking forward to that. There's not going to be any healing on this episode. Yeah, there's not going to be any healing. So before we get started, for anyone who's not, who's listening instead of watching,

we are on two different sets in a, you know, a nod to health and safety and thank you to send in love to everyone who's not feeling that well. Shout out Steve. Shout out Joe. And can't be here.

Yeah. I'm sorry that Steve Allman, the fourth member of the Midnight Boys cannot be with us today. So, so we're recording for two different sets and you guys are on like

the smallest table I've ever seen. Like, I just like, I don't, I want people to understand the visual, which is like whatever that meme of of like the inside the nba table kept getting smaller and then they made it even smaller and now it's your table so it's funny you don't feel cramped charles is very comfortable actually i'm chilling i'm

comfortable it's funny because we we've podcasted a couple of times without steve if steve was here it'd be even more and a lot of the fans said that the last episode that we did all right bro can we not do that that's what they say don't kick steve we love you we love you steve you know, that's so crazy. Well, here's the thing. Not only is our table small, you guys have the bigger table. Your chairs also have lumbar support. What's going on?

We don't have that out here. Yeah, Jomie, I need it at this point. I did also put in a special request for lumbar supports and anything I have to do from now on. And we have night. You have to ask for what you want that's what i'm saying the midnight boys aren't beating the hate women allegations joey good job look we can we can move on because i could start a narrative okay you know you're missing your white representative, so if you want to go at us.

There you go. With the way that it goes right now, I could start a narrative, but I don't think it's necessary because I think people know that we're a team here. We're a team here at The Ringer, and COVID has made its decision. There have been no blacks from The Ringer.

Team black? We were all at the show, and COVID just jumped around. You know what I mean? They must have known that Kamala was going to get the call. Yeah, absolutely. Are you auditioning for Fauci's job right now? I could.

I could be Fauci. I could be him. I don't know. There's some tweets that have got you out of the paint. That's probably true. I'm going to do what we usually do on this show, which is I'm going to talk

a little bit about the details of the movie and then we're going to talk about our reaction. But you're not going to read the recap that you wrote at 11 p.m. last night. I will be reading it in full.

Will you really? Yes, of course I'm going to. Did you guys see this stuff? I did. Did you look in this document? I did. What did you think, man? I'm prepared.

I was really worried about Sean's, you know, mental health. Because we got the email like at like 11.30 or something and I was like,

Sean, go to sleep. You gotta get up. This is how I live. This is the real me. You guys have seen what Amanda is privy to every week. But I'm excited for my dramatic reading. I rehearsed it once.

Sean, you must have been a joy in group projects in school. Well, you know, Amanda and I were talking about this yesterday. Here's the thing. The work always gets done. Like, I don't fuck up. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, like, not show up one day. Like, I'm always here.

Is it a little annoying? Yeah. I'm a little annoying. I'm a little bit of a control freak. But you know what? The done and that's what matters most here at the ringer would you guys not agree with that yeah it means i mean i gotta just show up and say stuff fan wasn't feeling that shit at all i didn't even look at it but but you know what though let me tell though? Let me tell you why, though. Let me tell you why, though. Because I appreciate the vibes part of it. Like, I knew when I watched this movie,

when I watched the movie, I could see the conversation that we were going to have. I could see it. And so I appreciate the fact that I just have to slip in and out of the conversation here a little bit more intently because I know the criticisms that are going to be abound from this film. Not just from the big pick slash Midnight Boys,

but from the average watcher, even the people who did like it. I could tell what they were going to say. This is going to be a full spoiler episode, as will all of your episodes on the Midnight Boys when you get into a movie like this. So Amanda, do you want to read what I've written? I absolutely do,

just so everyone else can understand kind of the mindset that we're bringing to the rest of this conversation. So this is directed by Sean Levy, written by, this was quite a title card that they moved through very quickly. Ryan Reynolds, Rhett Reese, Paul Vernick, Zeb Wells, and Sean Levy,

and starring a bunch of people. Okay, here we go. Spoiler warning. Story. Resigned to a career selling used cars and facing a loveless existence without purpose after a depressing birthday party and memories of being rejected by the Avengers and X-Men. Deadpool is summoned to the Time Variance Authority by Mr. Paradox, Matthew McFadden, a rogue TVA middle manager, in an attempt to stave off the elimination of his timeline, Earth 1008, or is it 1008? How are we saying it in TVA style? I mean, it's really up to you. It's up to your personal preference. Okay, thanks so much. I feel welcome. That is

his timeline that is about to be pruned. He steals the timeline teleportation device from Paradox and retrieves a downtrodden Wolverine from another random timeline and attempts to reinsert him as the pivotal figure in that reality. Instead, Paradox sends them both to the

void, a kind of repository for forgotten characters from the 20th century Fox strain of Marvel storytelling. There, Deadpool and Wolverine fight to bloody but deathless ends. Eventually, they are captured, along with Chris Evans' Johnny Storm, and taken to Void Imperial leader Cassandra Nova, Emma Corrin, who is Charles Xavier's twin sister, and her merry band of X-Men villain outcasts, Pyro, Toad, Juggernaut, Azazel. Sure, names I all knew. Who have been banished to rule this wasteland like a discount Fury Road. She reads their mind, rips Johnny's skin off, and attempts to feed them to Alioth? I saw this movie.

Elioth. Oh, sure, a lion. Oh, God, we shouldn't have said that. That's not how it should be spelled. The deadly cloud from Loki, but they escape. They encounter Nicepool and Dogpool, drive a minivan to find help, get into an epic bloody fight

after rage-fueled screeds against one another in a Honda Odyssey. Finally, they discover a safe house with Electra, Blade, X-23, and Gambit, who agree to team up and defeat Cassandra Nova. I'm still not done. They fight, penetrate her lair, remove Juggernaut's helmet, place it on her head to control her, and have her send them back to their reality, only she can't with the helmet. Paradox, get it? Wolverine spares her. She opens a Doctor Strange time portal circle for them that's a hard string

of words they race through it in time only for her to follow them and set off to control paradox's time ripper or whatever and destroy all realities allowing the void to reign to reign i we needed to line out at that deadpool and wolverine must team up to defeat all the stray timeline deadpools and finally confront the time ripper by creating a current that will malfunction the machine, pro-paradox's eighth overly explanatory info dump of the film. They succeed. Logan decides to stay in this timeline,

and they live happily ever after. Yeah! Let's go. Well done. Well done. Thanks so much. Two important questions about that. One, did you guys agree that that was an accurate representation of the events of the film?

And two, and most importantly, did you like the movie Deadpool and Wolverine? I want to hear from all three of you about this. And to your first question, yes. I felt like I was watching it again, honestly. I was back in the theater at the Grove. So sad. Watching it again. Shut your dirty mouth.

Did I like the movie? I had a blast. I had a great time watching this movie. I might be the only one here who had a great time watching this movie, but I thought it was awesome. There was a lot of fun. I think there are some problems structurally, and some jokes do go on a little long.

But man, some of the stuff really, really worked for me. And so I honestly had a joy sitting in theater watching this movie. That was an insanely accurate description of the movie. It was to a T. And I enjoyed it a lot. I had a lot of fun. I laughed consistently throughout the entire movie. We'll get into the issues

and the problems that the movie has. One of which being that I don't think the movie takes itself seriously enough. And that's probably where it's going to lose itself for a lot of people but it had a lot of spectacle an insane amount of comedy this movie is almost is a comedy i had a

lot of fun i wasn't left wanting anything more i liked it a lot really enjoyed it you know charles the most controversial cultural critic of his time honestly if i'm being positive some great brand management going on some top tier brand ip management you love to see it you know some great gming they moved a lot of things around we got all the cameos we want um but besides that this movie felt very emotionally hollow um just i don't know i i don't really know what we're doing here anymore it's just it's not what you like to see but people tried hard and it's what what all right guys i'm trying to feel i feel like you're pulling punches already we're in minute 10 of the pod do you already see

this is me pulling punches and they're acting like I just kicked their dog I'm not the emotionally hollow thing is just getting so old bro I'm just like what am I supposed to care

who am I supposed to care about in this movie bro I get it I get it I would almost want to hear any other criticism other than I didn't feel anything

man could you tell me about some of the emotions that you felt well I mean almost want to hear any other criticism other than I didn't feel anything. Ben, could you tell me about some of the emotions that you felt? Well, I mean, here's the deal. There are movies, and I don't know, maybe I'm a different type of movie watcher. There are movies that elicit a lot of emotion for me. And then there are movies that don't but i still like them like i can't go into that sometimes i'm wild and amazed by what's happening on the screen and i care a little bit about the characters sometimes i care a lot about the characters towards the end of this movie i've had three movies or two movies with deadpool deadpool right i already care about dead right I already care about Deadpool I already care about what's going to happen to Deadpool at the end of the movie you're rooting for him already right so it was going to take a lot for there to be a movie that made me and by the way Charles is entitled to

his opinion I get that just I've heard it a lot but like it it would take a lot for the movie to do for me to not care about Deadpool for me to put Deadpool on screen or to put Hugh Jackman's Wolverine on the screen and for me to not be invested or to care about what is going on with them in that way the film itself it's kind of playing a home game with me so the emotional part of it is never going to be a huge criticism for me because it's baked in a little bit. So the question that I asked from a Deadpool movie, a movie that, like I said, probably doesn't take itself seriously enough, is whether or not I have fun at the movie. Like, that's the question that I'm asking here. And I have fun.

And I get it that there was too much stuff happening and maybe it was a little bit too disjointed for other people to have fun. But that's the only thing. I have fun at the movie. Like, I literally laughed, had fun, saw a lot of stuff, got a lot of gags, and then that's it. It was fun all the way through. I was never bored. I always was wondering what's going to happen next. And I was always delighted and had a smile on my face.

So you come at the movie from the exact opposite perspective that Van was just outlining.'ve never seen a deadpool film no i've seen a lot of clips you sure i participate in pop culture yeah he is and deadpool is a denizen of the internet and i would say that this film is deeply a denizen of the internet yes this is a movie i got made by reddit of the jokes yes um did you have an emotional feeling about it i found myself thinking a lot about blake lively throughout the context of this movie which is the second time she's come up this week on the podcast but to be honest not a person i i spend a lot of time thinking about uh otherwise and i was just i I think that I was imagining her watching the film. And she is also at some point masked. Or is it whether it's just a reference to...

No, she's in the movie. She's Lady Deadpool. She's credited as Lady Deadpool. Okay. But even before that, I'm sitting there. I'm watching this movie. I'm thinking about Blake Lively watching this movie and watching her husband, life partner, just doing all of this stuff. Yeah, father diapers or whatever.

And then I was thinking about how I hoped she was reflecting on how rich it had made her. And I was just thinking about all of the money that all of these people have made. And it's hard to feel. I mean, I don't begrudge them. I don't get any of it. But I was like, wow, it must be nice to be Blake Lively watching this. And you have to put up with two hours of kind of annoying boy antics. And then you have all the houses in the world.

I feel like there's two ideas at war with this movie and the expectation of the movie. One is, this is the only Marvel movie. Marvel's kind of in a state of disarray. A fact that the movie makes a lot of hay out of throughout its selling. And then there's just what is like a Deadpool movie and is a Doopie, do you like that kind of a movie? And I think that's kind of what Van is getting at,

which is sort of like, if you've seen a Deadpool movie before, this is just that movie on steroids. But if you can remove it from the context of where the stories are. But it did have me thinking about, oh, let me start by saying this. One, I had a great time at the movies. You laughed a lot.

I do like the Deadpool movies. I always have. It occurred to me quite clearly that while I do not like Ryan Reynolds, I do like when he wears a mask. I don't have to look at him, do the things that he does. And his joke delivery system really works.

I think especially when Reese and Wernick are writing for him. I just feel like those guys get hisick are writing for him. I just feel like those guys get his sense of humor very well. They've written the other Deadpool movies. You like giggled at most things. I sat between Sean Fennessy and Chris Ryan, which was another sociological experience for me. Did Chris giggle as well? Chris laughed at about five jokes. One of them was the bone density joke. And that was the one that like really got him laughing. And then I started laughing

and like pointing at him. I mostly laughed when they laughed at other jokes sean had like a pretty just consistent low chuckle that would then like spout over usually like any boner jokes is like really and the more creative the boner joke the more yeah sean would like there are 207 bones in the human body except when I see blank and then there are 208. 208. You know, like that sort of thing. You know,

and so that leads to like my analysis of the movie which is two-pronged. There's a, very clearly like this is a movie that is a 12-year-old boy's fantasy.

It is literally when you're a 12-year-old boy and you read comic books and you're like, God, it would be so fucking cool if Wolverine and Deadpool would just fight and I could just see them fight and you're just like wish casting

dream casting fantasy booking your favorite episode of blank or issue of blank because the movie not once but twice does this where it's just like wolverine and deadpool are gonna fucking go to war against each other and they're both the most resilient essentially indestructible characters and they both have super cool powers you say that about every character well they're always all

the most resilient indestructible I mean but Wolverine and Deadpool are yeah because they have a healing factor what's about the person

who like eats all the other universes and then his brain is just like one giant universe I think that's Galactus you're referring to yeah right okay

and then there's the other lady. The cosmic character. Because she becomes Dark Phoenix. Jean Grey. Right. By the way, these are two cuts. These are two deep cuts.

These are two deep cuts. You like comic book movies. No, I have spent eight years with all of you. Like, this is what I mean. And this is what I'm saying. This is how I watched the movie. It's just like, oh, yeah. There's another, like, that reference that I've heard these people, like, talking about to each other.

And I'm on the outside just kind of watching as you guys. No, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody on the outside pulls out Galactus, Amanda. You're here with us. We've been talking about Galactus forever. Silver Surfer? He's the herald of Galactus. Is that someone?

Now you've shown your hand. Can I tell you how I know about Silver Surfer? Because quite literally, like seven years ago at this point, but it is on YouTube. We participated and I participated in a superhero draft. And it was me, Chris Ryan, Mallory, and Micah Peters. And Mallory showed up with, like, honest to God, 300 pages of printed out spreadsheets. And you can see them on the video. She had a binder.

This is all available. And, like, I didn't know what was going on. But at some point, Mallory, like, drafted the silver surfer, someone I have never heard of, and was like, I did it. I have, like, won the draft because this person, you know, because, like, paper covers rock or whatever she was talking about. And so it's always stayed with me that the Silver Surfer is, like, extremely secret powerful. But the reason I bring that up is just to say that every single time there's a superhero you guys like well but this one's the most powerful and that might have something to do with why i don't i don't invest in the same way that other people

do because it does seem like this seems like the rules and stakes are always changing well these guys are they have super op healing factors so that's part of their thing right they're brawlers except for the nice one what do you mean nice pool nice pool doesn't have it nice pool doesn't have it but yeah they have our two leads have super op healing factors which is part of their brawlers right so if you get up close and you're doing all this somebody would have kicked wolverine's head off his body by now or something like that but wolverine's main power and deadpool's main power besides their martial arts acumen is the fact that they can uh regenerate they have a regenerative healing thing for logan who is really

really dead well logan so antiman animamanian was put into his body and it poisoned him and after poisoning him it doesn't make them immortal it extends their lifespan and the poisoning of the metal that was inside of him took a toll on his healing factor and then allowed for him to be killed along with the fact that he was naturally getting older. He was probably over 250, closer to 300 at the time that he died. So it doesn't make you, you don't live forever,

but it takes a lot longer for you to die. But this is what I'll say about that, because a lot of people talk about, like, the inevitability of these characters

and their power sets and stuff like that. Every single action movie character you've ever watched is a superhero. Every single one. Every single person. James Bond is a superhero've ever watched is a superhero. Every single one. Every single person. James Bond is a superhero.

Ethan Hunt is a superhero. Like, Axel Foley is a superhero. Like, John McClane is a superhero. They're all superheroes. A superhero is a character that's capable of doing whatever it has to do to save the day and that you know is not going to die. You're not there to watch the character die. John McClane is indestructible.

He's not going to die. He's not going to die. You're not there to figure out whether or not John McClane is going to die. You're there to figure out how he's going to win. Like that's the thing. If they give you enough in the movie to say, this is why the character wins if they can

make you believe that the chips are against him you win superheroes just do it in a lot flashier way you see bullets bounce off of them you see them eat stars or stuff like that and that that suspends your disbelief but that's if you're you're either in for that or you're not like you know i mean well i agree i agree to a point i think and i that is a very insightful and true theory the problem is that the superheroes once you introduce multiverse reset all of those things every single time so they win in some and lose in some and this and and that is when the the this the the very straightforward and i think true stakes of what you're saying kind of get screwed around with so much that it's hard to keep up that's really more a feature of the last four years of comic book storytelling particularly

this movie it's an interesting version of that though i wonder if you guys had the same read on this but my expectation was that this was going to be a movie that was going to attempt to undo This movie, it's an interesting version of that though. I wonder if you guys had the same read on this, but my expectation was that this was going to be a movie that was going to attempt to undo a lot of that so that we could move on from multiversal storytelling with some like explicative way where it's like actually the TVA has been destroyed or there's been some choice that has been made

that this isn't the way that they're going to tell these stories anymore. And in fact, it's like actually a much more direct, it's a full blown literal fuck you to the multiverse Marvel era. It's like Spider-Man, no way home for edgelords. Like that's what this movie is. It's like,

you are a loser for having lived through everything post end game. And I'm going to make fun of you on screen actively for sitting in the movie theater and thinking that this would do anything other than just mock that, which on the one hand, I'm on board with. Like, I think that version of self-awareness in my movie storytelling, I always find amusing, even though it's juvenile.

On the other hand, it's so fucking rude to just be like, please, fanboys, come sit down and watch this. Also, you're an idiot, because that's what Deadpool is. Obviously Deadpool is an idiot too. So it's self-reflexive, but the act of it is pretty galling in general. That was the part of the movie that I bounced off the most because I felt

like the jokes in the vacuum, like making fun of the fact that the multiverse saga sucks, making the fun of the fact that Hugh Jackman is coming into the MCU at such a low point. I'm like, those jokes only work to me if Deadpool and Wolverine bucks the trend of these multiversal stories and it's better then. And I'm like, to me, this is similar to a Spider-Man No Way Home or a Multiverse of Madness. It's all kind of a similar story and i walked away being like having re-watched the first deadpool after this one i was like oh deadpool to me is kind of like venom and that character works when it's a lot grittier a lot smaller the world feels

as violent as them and this more so felt like Deadpool going into the MCU and the MCU getting their complicated shit on him when Deadpool at his best is a very uncomplicated character to me yeah I don't know if I disagree with Sean's point I don't think I think it's a fair point but I have the opposite read on it instead of being like an fu to the movies since endgame i thought it was a little bit of a love letter to those comic movies before the mcu right you see all these characters like electra like blade you know we never saw a gambit movie but that was that was always planned johnny storm let me tell you something i am staying i am sitting all right no no no i'm sitting here today

because shout out to my mom she took me to go watch fantastic for the first one in 2005 yeah four or five something like that yeah something like that johnny stone was my first the first ever superhero i ever i ever fell in love with seeing him on screen again for me that meant something to me right and so i'm watching this movie and i'm seeing all these characters that before 2008 like were really just for for us right for people who like know these characters know these stories now it's for everybody and that's fine things grow things evolve and i thought the movie did a pretty good job of being like hey all this stuff from the past that we've like literally forgotten about remember our roots remember where we started we This used to be all you had.

Now we have all this. I thought it was, I thought the movie did a solid job of getting that message across. My biggest criticism of the movie, my biggest criticism of the movie, I wasn't really that moved by the obvious fun that the movie was poking

at how much we care about this. Because the moment that you put Channing Tatum's Gambit that the movie was poking at, how much we care about this. Because the moment that you put Channing Tatum's Gambit in the movie... With that accent, too. Yeah, the moment that you put him in the movie, the movie is definitely making fun of you. Yeah. Because the movie is saying,

y'all wanted this? Because he's not even trying to play Gambit in an actual way. And, you know, being from South Louisiana, there were a couple times I was like, hey, cool it. You know what I mean? I was like, hey, cool it.

I know that guy. Like, cool it. He's a nice guy. My biggest criticism of the movie was I could see the limitations of the movie. And that's something that you don't want in a comic book movie. Like, I could feel the limitations.

What do you mean by that? They kept telling us about what happened to wolverine but they never showed it yeah yeah so being that they never showed it that tells me either they couldn't figure out how to get it in the script in a way that that made sense which shows a limit on their creative acumen, right? Or the strike and the production of the movie, because the movie is, it has more verbal exposition than any Marvel movie I've ever seen. It's crazy how many info dumps there are.

It's not even close, right? And after a while, you start to say, hmm, there was either something they couldn't do because they couldn't pull it off from a storytelling and filmmaking aspect, or they couldn't do it because of the dysfunction at the studio and surrounding the production of the movie, right? So they just said, we are going to trust in the fact that we're funny and that you love what we're doing and everything else, we're just going to give it to you straight up.

And so that's the main problem I had with the movie. The movie itself, it could have been like, there could have been a scene where we saw what happened to Wolverine. Could they do it? Could they pull it off? Maybe not. Could have been a scene where we kind of saw a little bit more about cassandra nova's backstory we have to trust that she's the most powerful baddest most sinister

person in the world that's where it cut corners to me and that's where it didn't reach the level that i would have been like oh my god this is really like a masterpiece great film i was really surprised by just how generally low stakes it ultimately felt. And maybe that's just an expectations issue, or maybe it's an issue of the movie. Like the movie to me is simultaneously very successful and also like a harbinger of doom in our culture at the same time. So like,

I'll, I want to read you all of the things that I thought about the movie. Cause I feel like they're all accurate to me. You might disagree. And like, Jomie, I take like they're all accurate to me. You might disagree and like, Jomie, I take what you're saying so seriously

and I respect it because I have my version of my thing that I saw when I was seven that I'm like, this matters to me and I'm going to always enjoy it. Flaws and all.

Fellini's The Icicle Thief. stop trying to big picture other me. This show is only about pretentious art house about, you know, pretentious art house cinema when you

know it's not. You know it. I will not be othered by the Midnight Boys. Not today, not any day. But I do think it's a pretty funny exercise in like the Ryan Reynolds meta joke machine. I think that it works well in that way. It's definitely, definitely

a visually bland, super flop sweaty exercise in IP loss prevention, you know, made by a guy who like has no visual style,

like a journeyman filmmaker. Like you can't look at this movie and be like, wow, this is really doing what like James Mangold's Logan did, where you're like,

that's an artist working inside of a corporate studio machine, making something sincere and good. Which is why I don't like it. Why it was hard. He was hard because he's not going to push back against what Ryan wants to do. Exactly. Sean Levy was there just to move the chains. Yeah.

You know, Jomie, you were kind of getting at this, but it's clearly this ode, this like encomium to a corporately absorbed studio's superhero wing of production. I mean, most of the heart and soul of the movie is dedicated to a group of

largely mediocre superhero stories from the 2000s. Your relationships may vary. Like Amanda, last night you and I were talking about how you really dig

X-Men First Class. You know, like Jomie, the Fantastic Four movie matters to him. I have a lot of fond memories of X2. Like Class. You know, like, Jomie, the Fantastic Four movie matters to him. I have a lot of fond memories of X2. Like, we all kind of like some of those movies more than others. But the movie is super interested in how that era is over

to the point where, like, there's literally a 20th century fox statue emerging from the ground. Out of the abseil, yeah. Yeah, in the wasteland, which is kind of funny. But also when you think about it, it's like, this movie is super interesting in this corporation. Why? Was that the big mistake where I was just like, instead of this movie feeling like a send-off for Deadpool, the character, to your point, it felt like a send-off for 20th Century Fox.

But the reason Tobey Maguire works in No Way Home is we only got Tobey in three movies. And he was one of the biggest movie stars that there's something really emotional about it what am I supposed to feel about like Electra you know or even like Wesley coming back as Blade like even that to me I'm like if you're gonna bring Wesley back as Blade like let him do some Blade shit and he was just kind of comic relief so the whole movie I was kind of like, this isn't giving me that feeling of Tobey Maguire being like, oh shit, he's about to suit up. It was more so like, oh, there's the 20th century logo and X-23 is in this and she's grown up now.

Well, Amanda and I talked about this when we talked about No Way Home on the show, how there was something weirdly emotional about Andrew garfield getting to be a part of an actually good spider-man movie you know that that there was like a payoff to that and also saving who does he saving he saves gwen stacy but no zen in no way yeah right he saves mj and also everything that real life reflects on that right if you if you follow the tabloids as i do. And you're right, Charles, that this movie is about saving our memories of movies that we saw 20 years ago, as opposed to something else.

But this is the version, this is the way to think about the movie that actually resonates with me, that I think makes me ultimately come out in favor of the movie. Which is that the movie is a $200 million spoof of superhero movies that exists within continuity. That it is like if Airplane was a sequel to Airport 75 instead of just a parody of Airport 75.

And if you let the movie be that, and that's kind of what Van was saying. It's like, this is a comedy. If you look at it as just a superhero comedy, I think it actually works really well. If you look at it as anything else, it doesn't work for me. Like the emotional beats don't work for me. Whatever like Deadpool's motivation is where he's like got dumped by his girlfriend

because she thought he was self-absorbed. I have some- That's the motivating incident of the movie. Oh, but also Deadpool wants to, don't forget Deadpool wants to matter because the X-Men and Avengers won't let him join the team. So, hey, y'all have wants. I mean, that's just, that's goofy. Deadpool wants to matter because the X-Men and Avengers won't let him join the team.

So, hey, y'all have wants. I mean, that's just goofy. That's goofy. That's like antithetical to the Deadpool character in the first place. I have some questions about that because I've now read the Wikipedia pages of Deadpool 1 and 2. I don't know if this is the time. Fire away. So I thought she was dead.

She's not dead. He brought her back. They brought her back, yeah. What does that how he time slipped he had cables time slip device and he time slipped at the end of deadpool 2 and at the end or in the credits in the credits basically yeah and that's why the tva he did reference this in the movie and that's why the tva like knows about him because he was doing a bunch of timey-wimey bullshit and the TVA is supposed to protect the sacred timeline. And so you can't bring back your dead girlfriend. Can't do it.

But they didn't really because she was only in the beginning and the end and flashback. I will add one more note to my list of things that this movie is and I would like to hear what you guys think about this too. Even though the emotional beats of the movie don't work for me,

it features a bizarrely great Hugh Jackman performance. He's so good. And is like really trying and gets like two different speeches. He gets like one where

he goes really hard against Deadpool and then one where he's having a conversation with Laura by the fire. And this has been true for 20 years

where I'm like he's just kind of too good for some of these movies. And he's bringing so much gravitas and kind of like, one of the only actors who has actually fulfilled our expectation of like, what a superhero could or should be

based on our experiences with the comic books. You guys may disagree with that, but I've always felt that way. I'm like, wow, they really, really, really nailed it with him. And he's 55 years old

and jacked, like bizarrely ripped. Yeah. and such a good actor and tries so hard in these movies and sells them so hard even though they're so jankily composed and conceived that i can't help but be like i would i would watch hugh jackman in three more of these even though the whole joke of the movie is like you're going to be doing this until you're 90 so i thought he really worked in a movie that doesn't that seems to be like kind of making fun of its viewer otherwise what what did you guys think that scene in the car right right before they have the the fight sex scene i'm watching the the hugh jackman performance and i was like wait wait wait i i didn't think this movie had this this emotional weight at all

what's going on to your point it almost tricked me into thinking like something serious was going on here right and again the scene with laura at the fire i was like yo hugh jackman could do this like forever he's so good he knows his character so well i i was honest i was honestly shocked i was like man we talked about this before the movie ryan reynolds is like it's we're gonna hear that fun don't worry about it that pissed you off oh here's the thing i they gotta stop doing that when you know the movie isn't everything that you want it to be don't do the instagram post where you're just like hey guys we just here to have a good time you know we're all winners at the end of the day don't do that so i'm So I didn't expect all that. So when he has that soliloquy in the car

and he's just riding Deadpool, he's just going at him. I was like, I'm familiar with Hugh Jackman's game, but I was like, whoa, he's a top flight performer. He was going crazy. So two things. One about the movie, that's something that the movie really does get right,

is the gags in the movie. If you exist inside the world that the movie really does get right, is the gags in the movie. If you exist inside the world that the movie wants you to exist inside of, it executes a lot of things at a high level. The first scene in the movie is Deadpool digging up Wolverine's body from Logan and then fighting the TVA guys with it. That's so fucking sick.

Like, how... Soundtrack by NSYNC. It's soundtrack soundtrack but it's disgusting how do i even think about you have to be a sick bastard to like think of something like that and that's the kind of thing i go wild we're about to have some fun secondly is hugh jackman's performance in the movie is exemplary for another reason i really believe it's a different wolverine yeah like i've watched the same wolverine for 25 30 years now 25 years whatever x-men comes out 99 and his wolverine feels familiar but also feels like a wolverine from a different universe and one of the big situations with all this multiversal stuff is normally to make someone believe that you're looking at a different universe. And one of the big situations with all this multiversal stuff is

normally to make someone believe that you're looking at a different variant of somebody, you have to make them crazy. He has to be nice Deadpool, or they have to be like a dog version, or they have to be a kid version. That's how you can see a variant. But this guy looks like the performance gives you trauma. It gives you impotence. It gives you a little bit of like a curve version of Wolverine until it doesn't. And that was very well done by him. It did seem like he was in a different movie sometimes. For sure.

You know what I mean? But in ways, Ryan got to make all of the jokes, and Hugh had to movie the rest of the movie. And so I've done it that way. But Hugh has done this. What was making me laugh is I'm like, they have asked Hugh Jackman to do this type of performance for these movies at least three or four times.

Because there was X3, The Last Stand, when we're like, oh, I guess they're done with X-men movies then there's days of future past where they have the whole thing where like logan gets to reunite with all the x-men then they had logan which was another send off for him so at this point i do think hugh jackman is very very good at being like people love saying goodbye to me but they didn't say goodbye in this movie though yeah but i think this was uh we're saying goodbye to the 20th century Fox version of these characters. And I think a lot of what Hugh Jackman was supposed to do

in this movie is like pat everybody on the back and be like, no, it's okay. Like, we love these movies too. This is a different time now. I disagree. There was going to be something I was going to ask you guys about. Is this the end of something or not? No. I think it's... like, is this the end of something or not? No.

I think it's the end of something insofar as, obviously, we know that that version of the X-Men is gone. So that's the MCU. And they gave you another joke. Like the post-credits scene is another joke. And then it's a joke on you because you stayed here thinking that this was going to be our time to take this movie seriously in the grand scheme of things. But we just hit you with more of what it is that we do. The reason why I'm saying what I'm saying about Hugh Jackman is I don't think he knows yet whether or not he wants to be Wolverine in the multiverse saga. I don't think he's made his mind up yet whether or not he wanted to.

We thought he had made his mind up. And I think the movie is a meta commentary on the fact that Hugh Jackman doesn't know whether or not he's finished his mind up yet, whether or not he wanted to. We thought he had made his mind up. And I think the movie is a meta commentary on the fact that Hugh Jackman doesn't know whether or not he's finished with Wolverine. He could very easily play Wolverine in two more movies.

Or we could never see him as Wolverine again. Whereas in Logan, they actually said this is the last time you're going to see him. And the fact of the matter is he didn't really know.

He's still hopped up on whatever he's hopped up on and let's go it's pure netty bro like let's look like how you're natural man so i don't think he knows and i don't think we know what do you think of hugh jackman what do you think of hugh jackman's involvement in this entire saga in general i read a rumor that there was going to be a number from the greatest showman performed uh somewhere in this. So I just spent the whole movie waiting for that. And I was like,

okay, so when are we going to get The Greatest Showman? Was that a part of the leaks that they've been saying? They're like, we put out fake leaks. No, no. Well, it's on the soundtrack. Maybe because I've never watched

The Greatest Showman. But wasn't it not the scene where they're jumping into the circle? Right? That wasn't The Greatest Showman song? Yes, that is the song. It wasn't a performance. It was they're jumping into the circle? Right? That wasn't the Greatest Showman song? Yes, that is the song. It wasn't a performance. It was just a playing of the song.

You know, I thought I was going to get some razzmatazz from Hugh Jackman, you know, because he has his many abilities. Well, I mean, there's a Music Man joke in the movie, and that has been... That was funny. I laughed at that one. Yeah. Without warming up.

Yeah, that was really good. There's a lot of jokes like that in the movie where I was just like, that is very funny and you can hate Deadpool, but you can't deny that that's good joke writing. But the theory on Hugh Jackman for years has been that he agreed to continue to make these Wolverine movies

because he just desperately wanted to make Les Mis and do the Music Man on stage and make The Greatest Showman. And he's just desperately been trying to be Gene Kelly. And that's where his heart lies. And he does this because this keeps him in the center of Hollywood. I think that's fine. I don't, I don't really, I ultimately don't care if he continues to do it.

It is weird that they are building an entire movie around his portrayal of Wolverine right before potentially having to find another Wolverine, which like, that's going to be tough. That's going to be really hard. You know, like. I mean, another thing this movie is about is age. All these people are really old. Yeah.

And like, and you know, I say that as a woman staring down 40. But like, as they were all, they were all reunited. And I don't think anyone here is under 45. No. Shout out to Jennifer Garner though wow it looks amazing it was good Jesus

yeah and I by the way I tried to start a cheer for Elektra in my oh no one was going up for Elektra I thought really bad

no one that was an interesting choice no one well that movie is hot trash and that's kind of the point excuse me but Jennifer Garner has been through a lot

and she's still here and she gets a joke about it, too, which I also enjoy. Very good joke. And she's really good on Instagram. Really funny. It's so funny. But even in that, there's a part of the movie. The movie assumes you know that, right?

The movie, it assumes you know that. They're almost not making a movie for you. They're making a movie to where we're all winking at each other. Like, if you don't know that, that's not funny. And that's kind of part of the thing. Like, if you don't care about Gambit, if you don't know what the deal is, you'd be totally lost. Well, I didn't know who Gambit was, but I and I understood that he was doing a bad accent and also i enjoyed the one thing about close-up the close-up magic joke as at sean's expense because sean loves close-up magic so much so but when you

saw gambit walk out yeah did you understand did you understand what the big deal was right then i was like oh i was like well there's a purple floating card and then here's channing tatum and then very quickly the story story is that that was his dream project, he and his producing partner. He wanted to be Gambit for years and years and the movie was in

development at Fox before the merger. And when they merged, that and many other X-Men projects died. Okay. And so this was a kind of wish fulfillment for

him to get to play this character that he wanted to play for a long time. He walked out at Comic-Con. Like, he was on a panel at Comic-Con. Like he was on a panel at Comic-Con as Gambit.

It was a big deal. Like it was coming out and it never happened. Okay. Well. Which is very different to me than

putting Elektra back in front of us which is like a movie that no one cares about and has been memory hold. It's very cool that Jennifer Garner was

you know willing to have fun with it and self-aware about it. And I thought that sequence in general was again like hard to pull off and they pulled it off. But it just And I thought that sequence in general was, again, like, hard to pull off and they pulled it off. But it just,

it did feel like a comedy. It didn't feel like a Marvel movie. And also a comedy for people our age. And I sat there thinking a lot about like, oh, this is supposed to be like a,

you know, 18-year-old boy's like ideal time at the movies. And I'm like, does an 18-year-old boy know who any of the, I guess he knows who Blade is,

but like. Maybe. Maybe not. People are old. Does this matter? Well, I think that you lose the four-quadrant ability with this movie with the amount of cursing and crude stuff. I don't think...

I think this movie is kind of playing the hits. I don't know if you're a regular MCU fan. I mean, these movies are around. People know about them. I don't want to take up too you're a regular mcu fan i mean these movies are around people know about them i don't want to take up too much oxygen from the boys but what do y'all think i mean the one thing that was interesting to me is i think this is another multiversal movie that almost felt really really small because i was like oh they're gonna be traveling and to your four quadrant thing i was like they only really go go from New York to the TVA to The Void, which is essentially a desert,

and then back to the TVA in New York. And then all of the characters that are populated within it, they don't, to me, have kind of the same stickiness as your regular MCU hero. Like, if Tony Stark walked out, that's different. The closest they had was Chris Evans, Human Torch.

And I don't know if they ever got there again. Because even I think the best joke of the movie was when they had the joke about Wesley Snipes not liking Ryan Reynolds. And I'm like, you have to know

a lot of fucking movie backstory to know that wesley was not fucking with ryan reynolds on the set of that blade movie and i was just like i was like would a 15 year old get half these jokes were they even alive this is another like layer that what the deadpool was originally in uh a blade was it was a blade movie or Wolverine? It was Wolverine Origins. Wolverine. Ryan Reynolds played in Blade 3 in Blade Trinity

Ryan Reynolds was in the movie. But a different character. Different character. Yes. So it's like there's all this stuff that if you know this stuff it's more amusing.

Sure. But it is really like narrow casting. Let me tell you something. I didn't know that anecdote but watching the movie i understood that there were things going on that were going over my head to speak to van's point and i see this with like a lot of love and support for you guys this is not a four quadrant movie this is the most closed of systems in the succession way. And that's okay.

Like, I found this to be, like, a fascinating sociological case study. filmmaking experience and like the MCU certainly post Endgame and and the fan feedback and involvement and the Easter egg and how it's talking to each other and even the way that you guys receive it

differently like I like Jomie thought it was actually sort of a love letter in the I express my love through hate sort of way which is an emotion I can understand

even if I can't understand the references. It's like potting with you twice a week. If you wanted to actually make fun of the people who have devoted their life to this, I would have asked for something meaner. But I do think ultimately it is for you, but it's not for me, but it's not it's not for me and it's not for my quadrant. And it's probably not for other quadrants just because it is so self-referential. And I walked away being like, well, if you guys had a good time, like if you liked the jokes and liked and felt like, you know, we've all been on this road together for however many movies and and now we

can all you know laugh about it together that that seems fine but it's like it's like i don't know there's definitely a level of if you get it you get it yeah you're gonna sit you're gonna laugh you're gonna enjoy it again for me i'm sure for van, maybe Charles. Charles, you don't like these movies very much. Well, I like these movies, okay? I just don't like the not great ones. I didn't laugh once. Like, Joey was sitting next to me. I didn't laugh once.

Didn't laugh once. That's actually amazing. I just, and not because. I even laughed three times. I just, it got to a point where I was just like, okay. Charles is over it, guys. Yes. I'm not over it. No, I just got. No, no, we was just like okay Charles is over it guys yes I'm not over it

no I just got we can't do this we can't do this we can't have this conversation I'm not over it I'm not over it it's okay it's okay

Charles is over it no I'm not I like House of the Dragon I feel like that's not super real that's not super real how's that not super real that's not super real

I like Doom no no no. You guys, this is, it is, I've heard you guys have this conversation many times.

You don't have to have it again, but it's an important conversation in the context of this movie because this movie represents superhero storytelling in 2024 more than anything else. And I think what Amanda

put her finger on is that they're narrowing the target. They've been narrowing the target ever since basically making one of the 10 biggest movies of all time. It's been inadvertent.

That was not the purpose. I don't think they were... So, there's two things that I actually believe. One is that they're running out of good ideas. That's just a fact.

Okay? They're running out of good ideas. With the set that they have i think i do think that the x-men fantastic four thing will just completely reset and that we've been kind of like hold like keeping our powder dry like that's part of the reason why i've been annoyed the last four years i'm just like stop trying to tell me that this matters when i know none of this shit is going to matter to the story that you really want to tell it's

like and this is another thing that's interesting about particularly the superhero stuff is we're so in the weeds in this we understand the limitations of like what it is that they can do so the reason why i said they were running out of good ideas with the x-men the x-men fantastic four stuff they didn't know that they could do that like they were they were flying the plane when the fox takeover happened and not then they had to course correct they were flying the plane when the Fox takeover happened and then they had to course correct. They were literally trying to dump all of the equity that they had built up for 10 or 15 years into Shang-Chi, into Wakanda without Chadwick, into the Eternals, into into Moon Knight into all of that stuff not the same landscape kind of didn't work

I'll just be honest with you like just kind of kind of didn't work stuff was decent to good but never great right

and now they got all their their big toys to play with again and they're trying to figure out how to re-roll those things out how to give those things back to you one of the most interesting lines in the movie to me told me how And they're trying to figure out how to re-roll those things out, how to give those things back to you.

One of the most interesting lines in the movie to me told me how self-contained this movie is and made me wonder how much Feige is actually involved, was actually involved in this movie, which I don't think he was very involved at all. Like they are speeding somewhere. I can't remember the character that they're talking about, they go there's been like five of this character right and then wesley snipes very earnestly says there's only one blade that is a direct shot at maher shala ali his blade movie marvel's future with blade the entire thing that's like a that's a joke that i was like do you tell me if i was rehearsing in the theater i'd be like fuck this that's a joke that you don't think like that's a joke that you don't think like kalika was offended i know people hate when i bring her but like that's a joke that you don't think would make it into that movie but you really

have to be on the edge of we're not taking any of this seriously if you take a direct shot at a two-time Academy Award winner that they want to build an entire franchise around and you leave it in your film. Do you think that was the... Like, that's how they got

Wesley Slapsons in the movie? It was like, you gotta... I'll do it, but I gotta let everybody know I'm the OG. I'm not sure, but I was surprised that that got in

there i'm gonna be honest with you i'm gonna say first of all fuck anyone who doesn't want to hear from cleo i was thinking the same thing like fuck that is what i had to say and then number two that was one of two jokes in our in our screening where people were like oh you know where it was like it had crossed some sort of like omerita line with all of this like predominantly male audience. You know, I was like, I spent a lot of time serving the scene and it was that was a lot of dudes. I think the other one was about Hugh Jackman post-divorce. His divorce. Like quite in shape.

Yeah. And people were like, oh, that's not okay. But every single other like deeply insulting thing that was said about the MCU, 20th Century Fox, Ben Affleck, I was there. And, you know, I guess people's penises.

Everyone was like, this is great. So those are the two lines for our audience. Whoever Herschel and Hugh Jackman's divorce. I mean, I don't know what to make of that. That is definitely true what you said. i guess that there is an imaginary line that can't be crossed there's no line no there's no but but typically though you don't see typically jokes like that are they're like under they exist like under okay Okay, like give you an example.

Axl Foley, the Axl F movie came out, right? And Joseph Gordon-Levitt is talking to Axl Foley in the movie and he goes, you were here in 84, you were here in 87, you came back in 94, wasn't your best moment. And then you move on and everybody kind of gets the joke that Beverly Hills Cop 3 sucked and they're referencing this. Like, to have that guy who really Blade started the modern superhero movie run, right? And it's Wesley fucking Snipes.

Like, that's when I knew that the movie wasn't, that it just didn't care. It's not a movie that cares about its existence inside of the MCU because what you don't see, which I've never seen, is MCU movies taking shots at each other. What they normally do in these films is they take something that they got wrong and then they use another movie to make it right. To bring back a character that you thought you didn't like, to bring back something that they thought they didn't get right, and then they bring it back, and you're like, oh, my God, I love that guy. Like Trevor Slattery in Iron Man 3. In Iron Man 3, he comes back in Shang-Chi.

But, like, that's when I went, okay, well, they don't fucking care. And that let me release a little bit and unclench my fanboyness a little bit in 100 meters turn right actually no turn left there's some awesome new breakfast wraps at mcdonald's really yeah there's the sausage bacon and egg a crispy seasoned chicken one a spicy and egg worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps.

Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax. At participating McDonald's restaurants. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. I think if you don't see the movie as the kind of pure comedy or spoof that we're talking about here if you go in with the mentality that this is an essential building block of the mcu going forward i think that the movie is going to be like ultimately destructive to your fandom of these movies because it is not just low stakes but it is like a little bit insulting you know i don't want to make too much of that but it is a little bit like you fucking losers spending all your time thinking about this stuff

because what we can do is we can just put Blade back in it and say I'm the only Blade. I'm so confused by the way that this is playing out in part because this was supposed to be and I guess could still be the biggest movie of the summer, but I had the same reaction that Amanda does

where I was like, will 14 women see this movie? Like, this is the most boys stabbing each other, saying the F word movie ever? Like, is it possibly the most juvenile dudes doing dumb shit movie

like at the grandest scale with the biggest budget that's ever happened? And of course I know that there are a lot of women who like Marvel and the mcu and i'm not i'm not trying to you know i don't want to negotiate that point but in general when you're talking about like audiences for these movies like it's is it just for the midnight boys and sean like who else is this movie for i mean i think i think the mcu kind of has an infinity war and game problem now where i think that like no way home multiverse madness deadpool and wolverine were kind of pitched as like we're kind of doing something similar you're gonna see a lot of heroes together you never

have or whatever but i think what people forget about infinity war and end game those movies made so much money not only because they were the end of something, but they did have these emotional stakes where you're just like, Oh, Peter died. They got snapped away. I'm, I'm tearing up in the theater. What is happening when all the heroes are coming out of the circle in end

game and they're all together and they're teaming up and cap is saying Avengers assemble. You're just like, I've been waiting my entire life for this. And you want to see it again. And you're just like, it feels like you're on a rollercoaster ride. With Deadpool and Wolverine, I did feel

like with a lot of the cameos, because they were kind of taking the piss out of the experiment, I was like, okay, got it. Don't need to see this until it comes on Disney Plus again. And that's the miscalculation, I think. Even more so, does that mean you can't have another Endgame moment again, because a movie like this is actively mocking it? Now, I think. Even more so, does that mean you can't have another Endgame moment again

because a movie like this is actively mocking it? Now, I did think the Johnny Storm joke was super funny where Deadpool wanted him to say Avengers Assemble and he flamed on. I thought that was a great moment.

But in a way, it takes away the opportunity to ever see Captain America again in some way. Maybe I'm overthinking that a little bit. I feel you could. To your point, though about like this movie in the audience it is tough because we've said it a bunch of times it's kind of juvenile right it's very much like you know

lowbrow humor at some points but the crux of it like the the blade the electras that's kids like my brother's 21 years old he's not gonna get electra he's not gonna get blade right he's for sure not gonna get gambit right all these references again from the early 2000s these are people you know 20 like 28 nearing 30 right younger people aren't gonna get to watch it that's where we are it's very to say like the thing with the narrowing of the of the pin is that superhero movies these days now are kind of big they are kind of for everybody at this point so even when it's it's a more um more robust audience there's millions of more people are going to go sit down and go watch a superhero movie on a weekend but for this specific movie with all the references and all the jokes

you kind of you kind of do narrow it down a bit and so it is kind of it's going to be tough to find a wide audience when a lot of the jokes are for people who us totally and and also even the even the characters i agree with joey charles you've been putting like no way home that's the three spider-mans right that's yeah yes and and a Doctor Strange movie I never saw and this all together but I do think it's it's funny that this movie has some weird random Furiosa in joke in it because like Furiosa I think like this niche you know and like it's it is iterating on stuff, especially in Endgame, that became mainstream. And, you know, Spider-Man, I know, has his own, like, corporate history. But, like, Spider-Man is Spider-Man.

Like, I, Amanda Dobbins, you know, comic book idiot, know who Spider-Man is. Know and enjoy Spider-Man. Yeah, I was very moved by that. Like I said, and I even know the meme. But some of it is just, like, this is not, these characters aren't as well known. Like these characters don't have as broad a reach as some of the other ones. And they haven't, you know, put in the whatever 15 years of work that they did their first time around with Iron Man. And I mean, even Iron Man is like more niche than Batman so you know what I'm saying like there still is a hierarchy to these things and at some point you know you're just playing in like a slightly smaller pond well I will say this we're right on the line of overstating this and let me tell you why I think two things one Deadpool's kind of always been this way

yeah I remember specific jokes like in Deadpool 2 uh uh he's talking about cable he's like cable and he says he's like five nine but he's much bigger in the comic books like that's a joke that if you understand what cable looks like in the comic books and then you understand how tall josh brolin is and how he looks either you either you laugh at that or you don't right and then in there's they've always been moved like there's always been jokes in deadpool um they're dragging them away and they're like we have to take you to see the professor in the first deadpool movie and deadpool goes which one stewart or mcavoy the confusing. Yeah, but I don't think those movies had all of the MCU stuff on it. I get it.

But what I'm saying right now is that part of what draws people out, a part of why this movie is a movie for, it's the third movie in two other movies that made $800 million.

Yeah. So there's a familiarity for people that are coming to a third Deadpool movie of what Deadpool thinks is funny and how Deadpool, like, navigates his world and how he captains,

really not navigates, how he captains his world. There might be some jokes that you miss, but this isn't anything new. This isn't new territory in a Deadpool movie. Totally.

And I think what I'm just saying is now it's interesting because of the industry and where the MCU is and where Marvel is. Everything that, you know, there's like a lot riding on this is the only Marvel movie of this year. We're going to use it as a referendum on the future of superhero or whatever. And I'm like, I guess. Or it's just the third movie. And I think that's overstated. I think we feel that way emotionally. Yeah.

But if Deadpool opens to $50 million, they're still making Fantastic Four. Totally. Like, Superman is still being made. Like, we keep... I think when we talk about the stakes of these movies, and I thought about this

because I was like, this has to change things. The movie actually treaded water for the entire conversation. And that's probably what it was going to do. There's probably actually much more pressure on a film like Captain America Brave New World than there is on Deadpool because that movie actually has to do something new. Yeah, but I think if Deadpool and Wolverine, if we are all out of our seats like, oh shit, this did what we wanted,

it was amazing, I think it gives Captain America, Thunderbolt, some of these other movies that are going to struggle a little bit more room. Maybe. And I think, I don't know if they're going to struggle,

maybe, but the toughest thing about... And this goes back to what Amanda was talking about. The toughest thing about the superhero movies and the superhero stuff is also the best thing about it for people who love superhero type of stories. The best thing about them is that they never change and the toughest thing about them

is that they never change. You come back to it because you're familiar with how the storytelling goes and what the storytelling does and all of that stuff. But at the same time, you grow and the characters for how they work and how they, they kind of stay static. That's the Superman problem. The Superman problem is that it's a character that was really invented for 1955 1960 1938 1940 and we're not there anymore so the thing that the mcu the mcu started off as a collection of uh movies about comic book characters now the mcu is a comic book like it is one yeah and people are reading it and reading it and reading it man some of these stories if you read comic books some of the crazy shit that they have to do

in these stories by the time you get to hickman and it's a multiple man in every galaxy and their incursions happening and people die the doom gets the power or of the beyonders is there and i'll say amanda's locked in. You know what I'm saying? It's like, by the time you get to that, they have to do so much to tell you a story that's different than a story you got

in 75, 85, 95 and 2005, and the stakes just keep going up. There is a moment where audiences are going to look at this stuff and they're going to go, we just don't buy it. I don't think we're there yet,

but there is a time where that's probably going to happen. I mean, isn't this going to be the biggest opening for an R-rated movie? So I think that...

Yeah, I mean, the movie will make a shit ton. I'm very curious what like the third week of box office is. This is really kind of where my head's at with that sort of thing.

Like the first movie cost $60 million. It made $780 million. The second movie cost $110 million. It made $735 million. This movie cost $250 million. It's going to have a huge opening weekend. There's no doubt about it. Crazy pre-sales, lots of hype. The reviews already from like people who care about these movies are mostly positive. It's more like basically the normies that got drawn into the Endgame saga. Yeah. The Infinity Gauntlet saga.

Like they're just gonna be like, what the fuck is this? Like it's so alienating for them. And that is really interesting. Like that is really what I mean by the narrowing of the target. Maybe it will still get to a billion dollars or whatever. I ultimately don't care.

I do think it's an interesting, we keep circling back to it on the big picture because these movies so dominated not just the box office culture but like honestly how I was scheduling like managing the show

where it was like four times a year maybe even six or seven if there was a big big DC movies we'd be like well it's the comic book movie and then we would do

like a Monday morning episode that was about like what happened. Thursday night. Thursday night, yeah. And it's like that's over. Like our audience specifically and I'd be curious to know how episode that was about like what happened. Thursday night. Thursday night, yeah. And it's like, that's over. Like our audience specifically, and I'd be curious to know how you guys feel about this,

like kind of doesn't care. Like it doesn't really mean as much. Like I've watched the engagement with the episodes shrink on these kinds of stories. And I don't think that what Deadpool and Wolverine is doing is going to reverse that in any meaningful way. I do think that like James Gunn's Superman could. I do think that

the Fantastic Four could. Those feel like consequential stories in a way that like Shang-Chi or Eternals or the new Captain America movie coming out later or Thunderbolts.

Like that stuff feels like mid-level B-team stuff that they're trying to keep in front of us until they decide they're ready to tell the big story again. And they might

be waiting too long. That's really where... And maybe I'm overreading it and this is all corporate, you know, chess moves, but this movie, again, kind of reconfirmed

that sensation I've had for the last three years. I think I just want the energy back because it's funny. Even my brother, my brother loves this stuff just as much as me and he's like, yeah, I'm going to wait until Deadpool and Wolverine comes out on Disney Plus. Like I'm good. And I'm like, that's the type of people that I'm

like wondering about where it's like that energy you used to have when an Avengers movie would come out or Winter Soldier. I'd be like, oh, well, I'm going to go see another movie that has nothing to do with the MCU because there was just this feeling of like my friends or like family or people around like well a bunch of people are gonna go see this big superhero movie well a couple days we'll see something else and that doesn't feel like that's happening anymore um and maybe maybe it will come back with fantastic four and x-men but like x-men is what at this point not coming out until probably like 2028 so we'll find out this weekend but I mean

we talked specifically about the oh is Comic Con this weekend Comic Con are you guys going yeah we'll be there if everybody's healthy I don't know whether

you're being sarcastic right now are you going we're really going oh that's so exciting what are you wearing if health permits if health permits we'll be there

what are you wearing regular clothes no costumes Amanda let me tell you something let me tell you something it's not What are you wearing? If health permits. If health permits, we'll be there. What are you wearing? Regular clothes. No costumes? Amanda, let me tell you something. No, no. Let me tell you something. It's not how we get down over here.

Also, just to be honest with you, there's not a lot of, there's not as many options for the black males. For a long time, we would go to Comic-Con and everybody was either Blade or Nick Fury. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's not as- Or now it's Miles Morales. Miles Morales. I don't want Miles Morales. Man. You know what I mean? It's not as... Or now it's Miles Morales. Like, I don't want Miles Morales.

You know? I like Miles, but... I'll be going as Lady Deadpool. Yeah, but it doesn't just have to be MCU, right? It could be somebody else. It could be Mr. Terrific. You've obviously never listened to the Black Superhero drafts, Amanda.

You run out of characters really quick. I could go as Lucius from The Dark Knight. That's... But, I mean, my understanding is that Comic-Con, like, I could go as Lucius from The Dark Knight. That's, but I mean, my understanding is that Comic Con, like you could, you could go as, like,

it's a, it's a wide range of, of topics. It's not just superheroes, right? Yeah, it is. But you're only attending

the superhero hangar or whatever? We're only going, you're making, I feel that. I feel what you're doing. I feel it. You know?

I'm curious. We're, we're going to go to Hall H Saturday night to see what Marvel's got going on. You can do it. You know? I'm curious. We're going to go to Hall H Saturday night to see what Marvel's got going on. You don't want to be

around there too much. It has the, it could be a spread out and you don't want to come back coughing. Right. But I'll say something else about the superhero movies.

I want people to remember the fatigue doesn't just have to do with the MCU. Yes. It's not just the MCU. Everybody started, everybody had powers. Niggas MCU. Yes. It's not just the MCU. Everybody started, everybody had powers. Niggas had powers everywhere.

It was like, it was, everybody on every show had powers. Like, everybody started to be like, oh my God, what if there's three superheroes

that like to hang out? Like, everyone, the Umbrella Academy. MCU, Star Wars, the boys, DC. Like,

everybody started to do, everything was about a group of misfits who had powers it just it started to wear on people supercell is out right now um raising dion like they've been and some of these stories are great right there there are but like there's a general fatigue not just about the mcu but about the superhero genre in and of itself. Listen, my kid's music class is superhero themed in August. And I'm like, am I signing up for that? Superheroes and fairies? I don't know.

I'm tired. Maybe he needs something new. Like what? Like Mozart? Well, there we go. That's a great idea. Would you like to lead the Mozart class? I mean, what is it?

It's a good little boy. Let him get into the superhero thing. What is going on here? Of course I agree with that. I'm just saying, I, too, have fatigue. I thought twice about the theme of this music class. We need something new. This is related to something else that we've been talking about on the show

for the last couple of years, which is I see the success of a movie like Twisters as very notable. Yeah, for sure. Because that's a movie that, even though it is ostensibly a legacy sequel to a movie that came out 30 years ago, you don't even really need to have seen Twister to enjoy Twisters full stop.

And the no homework era of movie loving seems very strong right now. And this movie is antithetical to that. This movie is, it's not just, did you see all the movies made since 2003? It's,

did you read the online articles about movies that were going to be made but didn't happen because of corporate mergers? Do you know the personal lives of the people involved?

Yeah. Yes, I do. I mean, we do. For us, it's great. Like, I kind of,

I liked Deadpool and Wolverine. I'm going to say that one more time. Like, I had fun. I mean, we do. For us, it's great. Like, I kind of, I liked Deadpool and Wolverine. I'm going to say that one more time. Like, I had fun. I have no feeling for Orkhan. Like,

I don't have a negative feeling. I'm just like, this was, this was an interesting thing to experience. But you like, you didn't do 80% of the homework.

And so like, you, you could enjoy some of the jokes. But I knew all of the, I got the 20th century Fox stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to denigrate you. I did all of the, I got the 20th Century Fox stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not trying to denigrate you. I did think that Chris Evans was Captain America for a while and then I noticed the four and I was like, oh, interesting. Was he in another superhero movie? Oh my God.

That's an example of what I'm talking about, though. A lot of people are going to feel that way. Let me tell you what else I thought. I was like, oh damn, they got Chris Evans back.

Like, they got a real one, you know? Like, and all respect to Hugh Jackman and everyone else, but I was like, when he showed up on the screen, I was like, oh, this, they got Chris Evans back. Like, they got a real one, you know? And all respect to Hugh Jackman and everyone else. But I was like, when he showed up on the screen, I was like, oh, this is what this feels like. And you guys gave it away. So that's tough.

And again, maybe this is just me, how I feel about like the meta commentary, the cameos, whole thing. That scene happens. And then he dies and around runners was like oh thank god you know he was doing to the budget that's funny i like i got that joke too you know that was funny but also then like you know the super charismatic superhero cap who was playing a totally different superhero who i'd never heard of, disappears from the movie. You've never heard of the Human Torch? I have heard about the Fantastic Four and they're redoing it

and Evan Moss Bacharach is going to be one of them. Don't worry about it. Amanda. Amanda. So hold on, hold on, hold on. Just real quick, real quick. So someone, I'm just,

because now I feel like the weirdo. So Guy says flame on, turns into all fire, and then flies around. You've never seen that guy. I mean, it feels like something that happens in The Incredibles. Okay. I mean, The Incredibles are close to the base of the force. We can't get mad. Doesn't someone light on fire and fly?

What's that guy? What's the evil guy? Syndrome? Syndrome? Doesn't someone light on fire and fly? Like, what's that guy's, what's the evil guy? Syndrome? Syndrome, yeah. Syndrome is definitely not on fire. I mean, I've seen people. Fun fact, The Incredibles was released one year before Tim's story is The Fantastic Four. It was.

Amanda, you go on Hulu right now or Disney Plus. Don't. Fantastic Four. It's right there. 2005. Okay? One of our greatest treasures in superhero movie making. They won't.

Don't listen to anybody else but me. I'm the expert. That's not. Don't say that. I'm the expert. I like the movie, but let me tell you something. I'll give you something else. Amanda, this is the movie where Jessica Alba met Cash Warren.

Oh, interesting. Thank you. And that had a really big influence and consequence on how we bathe and feed our children. So that's really important. That's real. You guys know about the Honest Company? Respect to Honest. Honest, yeah. No, I don't know.

Please. I know about the company that she has, but y'all use the products? Those diapers and patches are real. Who is playing the Human Torch in the new Fantastic Four? Stranger Things guy. Joseph Quinn. Yeah, Joseph Quinn

from A Quiet Place, day one. Oh, that guy? Yes. Tough. Okay. That was not a ringing in doors thing. You're not fucking with him? It was, what, extremely rude.

Let me tell you something. He's no Chris Evans. He's also one of the leaders in Gladiator 2. Well, Chris Evans wasn't Chris Evans in Fantastic Four either.

That's fine. And by the way, just to let you know, everybody's doing this. Gladiator 2 is coming out and it's ridiculous to make a sequel to that. But Gladiator 2...

It's ridiculous to make a sequel to that movie. It's absurd, right? But Gladiator 2, Tw ridiculous to make a sequel to that movie it's it's absurd right gladiator 2 twisters and top gun maverick are all the same flavor yeah i get it they're a different version of this thing that we're talking about they are they have market corrected the superhero industrial complex i'm not saying it's permanent i'm not saying glad here's who's gonna be good i don't even know i hope it is but for whatever reason in a mass cultural level something changed and watching this movie that i liked i was like wow it did it is it is different now

it is like i don't it's not that it's over it's just like it's it's back in your little corner it is back in the it is it's back to when I was reading Wizard Magazine at 14 years old. It's not back there, but it's not where it was. The Wizard Magazine era, Sean, we didn't have nothing. Like, we didn't,

but it felt more like, all we had was Lois and Clark. But we might be back to 2005 and we're not in 2015. Oh, Lois and Clark, I watched that. I did.

I watched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With Terry Hatcher. Yeah yeah and he was like a dean he's a republican now right or maybe he was dean kane yes but memorably lampooning himself in the curse i don't know if y'all watch the curse uh the reason i make the wizard reference though and maybe only van gets this because of our ages but you know back then it felt like you were in a secret club and if you came upon somebody who knew the same shit as you you were like wow we are fucking best friends we're pals don't matter well i mean that seems like a beautiful way to end this you have friends you know we're separated by

screens but together and and and we want to let them cook on their episode i don't want to eat up too much of them i've never i've never to Comic-Con with them? I'll babysit. I've never been. I'll babysit out. We might have an extra ticket. Yeah, we might have an extra ticket. Yeah, you might have an extra ticket. We probably have an extra ticket. We need a white boy. We need a white boy.

We need a white boy. And Sean's birthday this weekend. Oh! I think this podcast is coming out on Sean's birthday, so you guys should throw in a rollicking birthday party at Comic-Con in Hall H. I can't go, unfortunately, because I'm getting on a plane on Saturday. But I appreciate that you would welcome me as the Steve Allman stand-in.

I want to say thank you to you guys for coming on this episode. I look forward to joining you. I mean, the Midnight Boy is one of my favorite pods on the Ringer Podcast Network or any podcast network. Amanda, you feel good about this? Sure. I don't know. How mad are people going to be? And is it madder than they'll be on the Midnight Boys?

No. Oh, on the Midnight Boys they might get upset, but on the Big Big, no. No. I stood up for. I'm going to be listening and asking questions on Midnight Boys. You know, that's my job. That is your job. Wait, I mean, you're the expert.

We should be asking you questions. I'm going to be reflecting, you know, back to you, you know, better versions of yourselves is your job wait I mean you're the expert we should be asking you questions I'm gonna be reflecting you know back to you you know better versions of yourselves that's what I hope so I'm into it

well stay tuned because there's a lot more to talk about with this movie and Amanda has some questions so it's very important so thank you to the Midnight Boys thank you to

Alea and Jack and Bobby Wagner our producer and the whole host of people shout out Steve Allman you know shout out Arjuna shout out everybody who is helping make this and Jack, and Bobby Wagner, our producer, and the whole host of people. Shout out Steve Allman.

Shout out Arjuna. Shout out everybody who is helping make this epic series of episodes happen today. One other final note. New podcast next week, which is from the profane to the sacred. I will be reviewing Deadpool vs. Wolverine through the rubric of Sidney Lumet's making movies.

Yes, Sidney Lumet's 100th birthday would have been this month. So we're doing an entire episode about his filmography and his work. I hope you'll tune in for that.

But in the meantime, check out part two of our conversation with the Midnight Boys over on their feed right now. you