The Big Picture - Did Disney’s ‘Mulan’ Experiment Work? A Binge Mode Investigation

Episode Date: September 9, 2020

Amanda and Sean are joined by Binge Mode's Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin to explore the 1998 Disney classic 'Mulan' and the new live-action remake. They talk about what worked, what didn't, and what was removed from the original that marred this reimagining. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Heineken. It has been incredibly hot here in Los Angeles and nothing cools you down quite like a Heineken. Heineken Original Lager is made with pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season, all-the-time kind of beer. Pick up a pack or have it delivered today and drink responsibly. We must be stood at the coursing river With all the force of a great typhoon With all the strength of a raging fire Mysterious as the dark side of the moon

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. The dark side of the moon. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Mulan. That's right. The Mulan remake, sort of, has made its way to Disney+. It hit over the weekend, the long Labor Day weekend. Amanda and I watched it, and we'd never seen Mulan before. And so we're not really Mulan

experts so we've brought on a couple of Mulan experts in the form of Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin the co-hosts of Binge Mode they'll join us in just a minute to talk about the original Mulan from 1998 this remake some of the exciting things about it some of the things that don't work some of the controversy surrounding this film but before before we do that, Amanda, I've been out on vacation for a week and I'm back now. And in my time away on vacation, something happened. And that is that movies came back. Tenet opened in thousands of movie theaters across the country. And what happened?

What happened with movies? They kind of came back. Some people saw them and other people didn't. Yes. So Tenet made $20 million at the American box office, the North American box office this weekend, which is fine, I suppose. It's not a wow number. It's not a horrible number for Warner Brothers. It is indicative of the fact that New York and Los Angeles are not open movie theater wise. And so that accounts for a significant amount of the fact that New York and Los Angeles are not open movie theater wise. And so that accounts for a significant amount of the box office.

And also accounts for the fact that most theaters are operating at 25 to 50% capacity. And most people are still terrified of COVID-19. So we have this unusual circumstance where there's a massive Christopher Nolan movie that has opened in movie theaters. Let me tell you something. There's a lot to discuss with this film because you and I saw this movie. We did. We saw it at a drive-in, sort of together, side by side.

Side by side. We did. We drove all the way to San Diego. Or I should say, you drove, and God bless my husband, he drove, and he's going to get a gold star in a later episode. Really, just like the big picture MVP of the week, Zach Barron. But our cars did park next to each other at the drive-in in San Diego where we watched Tenet. We saw Tenet. I have so much to say about Tenet, a movie that I genuinely liked and I think it will make for a wonderful episode of this show. But I thought we should wait maybe one more week. Now, it's difficult to encourage people to see this movie. And so I don't want us to take on the responsibility of saying you have to see it because it all depends on your personal feelings about going into a movie

theater or going to a drive-in. In LA, you can't go to a drive-in, unfortunately, because Tenet is not showing at drive-ins, but you can go to San Diego if you want. Yeah, I was just going to say we drove 130 miles total-ish to see this movie. And I do not want anyone listening to this podcast to think that they need to drive 130 miles to see a movie to prove that they love movies or Christopher Nolan or AT&T stock price. Okay? Like we did this because this is our job. And also because it was like 110 degrees in Los Angeles and we needed to be somewhere other than our home. I lost power immediately after I got back from San Diego, whole different story, been a week here in Los Angeles. So just to say, these were exceptional circumstances, even for us. And we it um because we think safety and

health is important for us and for other people and also because you know we have a movie podcast to do but we think everyone's listening everyone listening's health and safety is also of extreme importance yes seeing tenant is optional safety. Listening to the Big Picture episode next week about Tenet is not optional. You have to listen no matter what because Amanda solved the movie. The movie ended and she said, I get it.

I know everything that happened. I understand it fully. It is all clear to me and I'm ready to explain it. And I said, great, let's do it on the pod. That's what happened. We should actually try to do that. I mean, I just like, I have,

I read like two blog posts and just, I have a lot of thoughts and like trying to recap it would be funny. But anyway. I think we should try to do it. We'll have, we'll have a blowout conversation about this very peculiar film, which I find quite interesting as a, as a text that maybe might signal the end of movie going as we know it. Nevertheless, Tenet has been kind of a modest hit overseas. It's done pretty well where things covet 19 wise are doing slightly better but in the states it's going to probably be around for a long time in movie theaters because there's just not a whole lot else opening in that respect for

the month of september so there'll be some time to get into it and um and i thought amanda quickly we should just acknowledge the absolutely tragic passing of Chadwick Boseman, which happened right before I went away on vacation. And, um, you know, I think like most people who care about movies, who care about the arts, who care about contemporary culture, I was just, just devastated, just gobsmacked by his passing. He's only 43 years old and he passed away, uh, from colon away after a battle with colon cancer that no one knew about. And I just think it's gutting. I mean, I'm sure you felt similarly. Yeah, to me, this is just an overwhelming sense of loss.

And I thought there have been a number of podcasts and lovely tributes, both on the Ringer Podcast Network and out in the world. And if you have not gotten to read Brian Coogler in particular's tribute to Chadwick Boseman, it's just unbelievably beautiful and heartbreaking. And so because you were gone, I thought maybe with a little bit of time to kind of sit through this news and you could get to a place of maybe not understanding, but maybe some of that sense of loss would kind of ebb.

And for me, that is just not the case. I mean, he was so young and had really had such a major breakthrough in his career pretty late in his career in his like mid thirties. And then obviously, um, playing black Panther and becoming the international, um, sensation that he was, you, you feel a real sense of loss for like his career and everything that, where it could have gone. Um, and then also of what he meant to so many people, the, um, the weekend that he died, my dad sent me a video that was going around that was originally taken in 2018, but it's of a group of students at the Ron Clark Academy in Atlanta who are just about to see Black

Panther and are just so excited and dancing and just like full of joy. And it is a reminder of what that movie meant to so many young people and particularly young Black kids who got to see this incredible character on screen. And you think about just what it means for them to lose that. It's really heartbreaking. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of difficulty for parents explaining what happened to Bozeman in the last week or so. And, you know, there's, it's so hard to say anything insightful about something that is so awful in terms of Hollywood and, you know, unexpected tragedy like this. The only two examples I could think of really in the last 20 years that were even close to this were obviously Heath Ledger and Philip Seymour Hoffman's

deaths. And, you know, Hoffman was a little older, and Ledger's was incredibly tragic as well. But it felt like it had been a long time since we lost someone out of the blue who was so center to our culture. And obviously, he's best known for his work in Black Panther, but he had this incredible sense of what roles to choose and the power of representation. And if you look at his portrayal of Thurgood Marshall or Jackie Robinson or James Brown, and even his role in this year's The Five Bloods, the Spike Lee movie, he was after something. And it's not something as kind of simple and oversimplified as dignity or grace

or greatness. There's a lot of complexity in a lot of the work that he does and a lot of the parts that he takes on. I think taking on a part like James Brown is a bold act. James Brown is not a pure goodness. He's a pure talent, but there's so much complexity in his life and his humanity. And Bozeman just had a really keen sense for that stuff. There's not a lot of actors who are so careful and who get the opportunity, especially black actors, who get the opportunity to do this kind of work

throughout their career. So I think it just makes it doubly crushing. I mean, you mentioned the other episodes on podcasts. I would definitely recommend, you know, the watch had Reggie Ugo on of the New York Times who wrote a great profile of him a couple of years ago, which went around quite a bit in the aftermath of his passing.

And I thought the conversation between Justin Charity and Micah Peters on Sound Only was really, really great and tapped into something that a lot of things I hadn't thought about with regard to who Bozeman is and what he represents. And, you know, there's just no upside to's just no upside to this news. It just, it's just awful. It's awful for everybody who knew him for his friends and family. It's awful for what he represented to people who were fans of his and rewatched black Panther last night. And I was just like, this is just a wonderful movie and it certainly has complexities and flaws, but he holds the movie together. He carries the movie on his shoulders. And that's a movie that had so much anticipation and so much anxiety surrounding it. And it lived up.

I mean, that just never happens in mainstream culture. And so, you know, I'm just, I'm a bit speechless about the whole thing. Yeah, I am too. I mean, it's a loss. It's a loss in terms of his career and what he meant and what Black Panther meant to like all of its audiences.

And it's a loss in terms of all of the things that he could have done. You know, I thought you said something on Twitter last week about how, how exciting it would have been to see him like maybe subvert those kinds of traditional, like exceptional man roles that he, he played and you think about everywhere his career could have gone. And it, I mean, it was just so soon and I'm, I'm career could have gone. And it,

I mean, it was just so soon and I'm, I'm with you. I just feel like a sense of loss and at a loss. Absolutely. It's lost time for his family. It's lost, lost opportunity for those of us who loved watching him work.

So, you know, pouring one out for Chadwick Boseman, a really, a great artist. Okay. Now let's go to our conversation with the guys from Binge Mode about Mulan. Holy crap. Binge Mode is here. Mallory and Jason. Hi guys.

How are you doing? Hello. Let's get down to business to record a pod. Okay. Full binge mode already. Very happy to have you both here. As I mentioned at the top of this show, guys, I was a complete Mulan neophyte and Amanda just revealed to me that she lied to me and has in fact

seen the original Mulan. Or maybe you don't listen to me, like always. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's what it was. Maybe I wasn't listening. Nevertheless, you guys are here because I think of you more as Mulan experts, really. Certainly fans of the original film. And I'm very excited to talk to you about these new films. So maybe we can start just by having both of you tell us what the original Mulan kind of means to you.

Mallory, why don't you want to take the floor on that? Sure. Try to keep it brief. Good luck. Thanks. So I was born in September, 1986.

No, I'm kidding. Mulan came out when I was 11 years old. I was in middle school when the OG Disney cartoon Mulan came out. And it was a very important film to me when I was a young person. I would say that it is my third OG Disney cartoon in terms of personal top five power rankings. And I probably saw it, I don't know, 25 times when I was a kid. Now it had been then quite a long span of time. After that, I really enjoyed returning to it and revisiting it in preparation for this podcast.

I have a vivid, vivid, vivid memory of seeing it in the theaters when it first came out i got to go by myself without parents with my friend my dear friend ali saperstein shouts to ali and i i remember remember when i said this was going to be brief now i'm talking about like what concessions we got we got skittles i just remember so many skittles and the euphoria of feeling that sense of freedom and empowerment. And that, of course, brings me to what else I loved about the movie. The music, which I know we'll talk about later, so I won't spend much time on here. And then the themes.

I love a theme. And it was just so cool to me as a young person, and especially as a young girl who really liked a lot of things that were typically associated with boy behavior, specifically sports, things of that nature, to just watch Mulan go kick ass and do her thing. I just thought that was so cool. And it's been a very important movie to me ever since. That's my Mulan story. JC, what about you? As I have said numerous times on, uh, on the big picture and various other ringer podcasts for the years, 1997, 1998, 1998,

I worked at a movie theater. So I've seen every theater release, pretty much every theater release in that two year span. And Mulan, absolutely. One of those movies, you know, it's not as an Asian American it's not like

you get a whole lot of opportunities to watch a um American production of an Asian story with a primarily Asian cast you just don't that just doesn't happen it's like Rumble in the Bronx but there's not even a lot of Asians in that besides Jackie Chan that talk. So it's like Mulan, Rumble in the Bronx, and Better Luck Tomorrow, you know, from that era. It's not like you have a lot of movies. So I was excited to see it. On top of that, I love a musical.

Absolutely love a musical. Love a musical. Yep. a musical. Love a musical. Yep. Big fan of the musical art form. And boy, does this one have some bangers. And it's really funny and fun. Yeah. With a truly inspiring story.

You got Eddie Murphy, Eddie Murphy-ing it up to add that little bit of spice in there when you need it. And the action's fantastic. Ming-Na Wen of ER fame was a big fan of hers in the late 90s. I just love this movie. And I probably saw it three or four times when it was out in theaters just to see it, not because I was like walking in and out of theaters as part of my job. So, so many of the things that you just identified about the original, notably do not appear in this new film, which I'm sure we'll talk about at length. Amanda, what about you? Just as you reflect on a lost youth, a misspent youth at the movies. Certainly misspent.

Yeah, it's funny. I am two or three years older than Mallory. I never really know. But that's the difference between being 11 and 13 or 14, which is a big difference when you are greeting a Disney movie, or at least it was a big difference for me. So I do remember seeing Mulan in theaters. And I remember everything that Mallory said in particular of like having grown up on the Disney princess nonsense for this to be a Disney movie where instead the young

female character just gets to go do what she wants and it makes, makes decisions for herself. That was very cool. And then otherwise I have to say, I, it just didn't stay with me the way that, um, the lion King did. But I think that's because of age and also because I'm like the world's number one Elton John fan. So let me take you guys back to the time when I saw mulan way back on thursday i was uh i was in sedona arizona and i fired up disney plus and i checked out quite a charming little disney movie i don't know why this one eluded me but um it is it is really kind of at the the end of the peak of that 90s disney run with Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid and Aladdin and The Lion King and Mulan. And I feel like Mulan might be the last great,

I don't know what age that is. Is it the silver age of Disney? Or I don't know how you would describe it. But that moment when you had all of these incredible musical scores and musical numbers and this keen sense of childlike humor that might appeal to some adults, you know, the same way that Robin Williams might've appealed to adults as the genie. You get, you get some Eddie Murphy in this movie and, uh, I dug it. I kind of lived up to the hype. I'm, I'm, I'm a 38 year old man and I probably shouldn't be watching Mulan 1998 version at this stage of my life. Nevertheless, I thought it was pretty fun. So come to find out,

that's not what this new version is. No. This new version is quite a different experience. So I'm excited to hear how you guys felt about having your youth and or your experience working in a movie theater torn away from you the way that Disney did with this new version. I'm not even necessarily making a value judgment here, just the fact that they've changed quite a

bit. So obviously the film hit Disney Plus over the weekend, $29.99 price point, which is some would say quite high. It's certainly higher than the number that Amanda and I speculated on six months ago. And we thought things like this might start happening. We thought $19.99 would be where most of these movies landed. And it seems like it was quite successful. The downloads were very high for Disney Plus over the weekend, which is really the only way we know how to analyze whether or not the films had any success. And despite the fact that we found out

this film's coming to Disney Plus for free in December, maybe during an incredible heat wave here on the West Coast, families really wanted to stay in their house and watch a movie. And so it seems like it was a success. So Mal, how do you feel about the reimagined, relaunched, rebranded live action Mulan? How indeed. I was grateful for the opportunity to watch it at my home, just in a big picture sense, in terms of the story and the reimagining specifically, you know, didn't do as much for me as the 98 animated versions, certainly. I think that we'll probably return to my main critiques

in more depth later on. So I'll just kind of hit them at a top level and we can get into them together. The lack of music is just baffling to me. It's such a crucial part of the heart of the original film. And not just having it there, but the way that the story, as is the case in any great musical, is interwoven so seamlessly into the rhythms of the songs. You know, I'll Make a Man Out of You is my favorite Disney song, period. Amanda and I have had just rich and layered arguments about this in the past, which were

captured, I believe, by a Ringer video crew. Like they're done, Mallory. Like that isn't about to happen again on this podcast, but you keep talking. I'm prepared and I'm excited to revisit this with you. But I love that and it's emblematic to me of how the best OG Disney songs function, which is in a vacuum. It's just a jam. It's a banger. It holds up and I love it. But in the film, it is such an efficient way to move the story forward. It helps with the characters bonding. It helps us understand who they are and how they're developing. And I just really miss that, obviously, reflection, another all-timer. I just, I missed all of the music so, so much. I think generally the tone and the sensibility didn't work for me as much. You know, you guys mentioned the humor of eddie murphy but i would also cite the grandmother character or cricket in his original like literal cricket form there's a lot of levity and a lot of quirk and charm in the original animated version that is just not even not only not replicated but not really approximated in the new version and then i think

the other biggest thing for me listen listen, I love magic in a story. Frankly, there are a few things I love more than magic in a story. I was not a fan at all of turning Mulan into a, in essence, magical superhero, because I think that it drastically undercuts the message of the story, which is that women can do the same things as men and you don't actually have to be a magical being or fantastical in some way. The very core of who you are is good enough. That's the point. And I found that change in particular to be pretty upsetting. That's my take.

I agree with what Mallory said. I think that, you know, there were a lot of baffling choices in this. Separating my, I actually had some difficulty kind of like separating myself from my feelings about the original film while watching this yeah um in that sense in a vacuum it's fine like when uh when mulan uh you know rouses herself after uh taking a you know that throwing dagger to the chest and and and, uh, has the realization that, oh, I'll just be who I am and I will go and fight this fight as myself. I found myself moved by that.

Um, and a few other moments in the film, but otherwise, like I found this kind of boring, kind of boring movie. Uh, you know, I kept waiting for the music to come in and take me to another level, and it never really did. And I think to Mal's point, you know, the kind of magical elements, the kind of, let's throw Fox from Harry Potter in there, and why don't we add a witch for no reason with dragon hands. It just kind of

it's like in order to in order to be accepted as as a as a female in this society the message seems to be you have to be like anointed magically by this very by these various magical beasts and then like they'll think about it. Like, we'll discuss it. And then if you really kick ass in the battle, okay, we'll talk about it. And that seems to me to kind of undercut the message. Now, you can argue that message was kind of there in the original film.

It's like Mulan is not just there taking part in the battle. She's, like, incredible. She's, like, one of the best, you know? But I found that kind of baffling. I guess if I had to really, to process this movie in the context of my feelings about the previous Mulan, a disappointment.

In a vacuum, it's fine, I guess, you know? It's fine. It's a fine action movie yeah so amanda this makes me think of our conversations about the lion king and aladdin live action remakes i would say two of the seven most deranged episodes we've ever done that is true competition right because because at one point you tried to say that Hamlet was bad. And at another point, I just like had a breakdown because, oh, you said Hamlet was bad. And also you like went to the bathroom and undermined your own point.

And then the other time I just like started crying when I started thinking about Will Smith credit songs. So, yes, I do understand about Will Smith credit songs. So, yes. I, too, understand the power of Disney music. I wasn't thinking about those episodes because of our mental weakness. I was thinking of them because the thing I think we were asking

for out of those movies, we sort of got with Mulan and I regret it. I think Aladdin and The Lion King, I thought, worked a little bit too hard to retain the tone and the approach and story of the original films. And so they felt completely non-iterative. They just felt like duplicates. And I couldn't really figure out why they existed other than to make money.

That was the big criticism was, why does this Lion King movie exist? Like, it is not different in any meaningful way, thematically, intellectually, creatively, aside from the fact that they used a kind of a different style of animation to create the story. And they retained the songs in some places. They retained the jokes in some places, the characterizations. And I think Mulan is kind of what happens when you don't really know what's good about your movie. And I couldn't really figure out why they made some of these choices. What do you think

was motivating some of the decisions they made here? Well, I think they're trying to make a movie for everybody and no one at once and i actually did think about both aladdin and the lion king in that respect because like i think you and i know and everyone knows why those were made and that was for money and hey it worked but we even then talked about like who is this for and do children want this i have spent a lot of time interrogating like jason gallagher who is a co-worker of ours who has like a young son and consumes these and I'm just like but how did he respond to the sexual undertones of Aladdin and Jacob Gallagher is like please leave my son alone which is the right response okay like and and but also Sean just spent that whole episode being like

why does this genie have to fuck I don't't know. It's been a weird journey, but in all of these. All the genie wanted to do was grant wishes and fuck. It was such a weird choice. But like, let the genie fuck, okay? Like,

why can't kids learn that that's a natural thing? Anyway. Genies are not real. It's not natural for a genie to fuck. You don't know. What do genies normally do?

What a limited world view. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But, again, the point was, it's's like who is this for and this and or more to the point does this movie know who it's for and i think all of these movies are doing this thing where they're trying to be for young children and also parents and also adults who remember the original movie and also an international audience comprising billions of people which in this this movie is absolutely the case. And that produces a lot of problems textually and also certainly metatextually when we talk about controversy.

But it feels divided. And once again, I'm just like, why are we doing this? I mean, and I know why. It's to make money. But who it's for and who is going to leave this being like, yes, I don't know. Yeah. We should just say before we dig a little further in Mulan,

of course, is, is, is based on a, a Chinese folk, folk, folk tale. And,

and, and a, and a poem, the ballad of Mulan, which is a sixth century Chinese story of a young woman who does the things that Mallory was describing, who essentially becomes a warrior and despite her gender rises to a kind of mythic hero status. But the folktale is not necessarily a mythic story per se. There's not a lot of magic in

that story and there's not a lot of magic. There is a kind of sense of an acknowledgement of ancestry and of spirituality in the animated film. But this new film has a lot more in common, really, with the kind of wuxia and, you know, kind of mystical Chinese movies that we've seen really over the last, I don't know, what, Jason, 50, 60 years? But more specifically, the last 20 years, they've gotten very big, kind kind of post Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and the Zhang Yimou films and um and it really just feels like an attempt to remake Hero or House of Flying Daggers which obviously makes sense to Amanda's point about appealing to international audiences because those films are very powerful overseas but I don't know Mal you really you nodded your head when you said making it for everybody and when the man said making it for everybody and nobody, you know, what would you have done if you were remaking Mulan? I probably wouldn't have remade it because I am so fond of the 98 version. And I should say,

as a point of context to that question, like I actually, I have not seen a single other live action remake in this more recent Disney push, which I don't know if I had totally even processed or realized until prepping for this pod, but, and it's not like a fundamental refusal to engage with them or anything. I think in general, I love the idea of remaking and

reinterpreting stories for a new generation and putting them in a present day context. Like Jason and I probably spent one eighth of the Binge Mode Harry Potter on talking about what the TV adaptation of Harry Potter would look like and how eager we were to see that come to fruition. I think that the remakes that I'm most drawn to, still, even though they are modernized, they are adapted for a current context and framework, they understand and channel the spirit of what made the original special. So it's as simple as that to me. And I know that that's probably fairly reductive, but I would want the remake to understand what made the original one special. And then the specifics can, can vary as much as they need

to from there. You know, obviously there are a lot of characters from the original who are, um, altered or replaced in this one. You know, Cricket is a cricket literally in the original and is a human being here captain lee shang is split into two characters on and on the list goes we can get into that i think that you know something that that jason mentioned a minute ago like the the the fact that in this film the 2020 version mulan makes the choice to reveal her identity, to reveal her gender. I think that was a great change. That's, to me, vastly superior to being found out in an injury tent. But I think the list of things that felt like improvements was ultimately smaller than the list of things that felt of a piece and in keeping with the spirit of the core story.

This movie is just riddled with some of the more iconic Asian actors of the last 25 years. I mean, Donnie Yen and Jet Li and Gong Li. Gong Li and it's, yeah, it's pretty star studded and they all have their moments. One of the changes, uh,

to Mallory's point is, is a more robust emperor who is, who's not just kind of, uh, you know, on the run. And will somebody help me, uh,

defend our kingdom from the Huns? Um, that was a thrill for sure. Like anytime I see Donnie Yen on film teaching warriors how to fight, uh, I, I go to the edge of my seat. Um, but it, it just kind of felt, uh, empty in a way, you know, to, to the question you asked, you asked Mallory about how, how would you tweak this if you were going to adapt the original one for 2020 I think I think doing it in a more uh grounded historical way I love magic but let's

get rid of that stuff you know and and do it and and do it in a more historical way that tells an actual dramatic story about these characters as we know them. And there is just so much stuff in here that is kind of like, to Amanda's point, is like something for everyone, but also not enough to satisfy anyone. You know, you've got, there's Donnie Yen and Jet Li, great, but there's not really enough action for them to dig into. There is these kind of nods at Game of Thrones and Harry Potter kind of lore. You have like the image of like the sword going to the pool. You have these like Arthurian legends. But none of it kind of gels. None of it really hits, except for that one moment when Mulan, you know, casts off her armor and fights. And then after that,

it just kind of feels like this series of long battles that are kind of pointless, that don't have any real like visual hook. And you don't even really get a great moment when donnie n or jet lee like really show out um so in that sense i i just found myself like so disappointed in this movie despite the really amazing star-studded cast that we see here you know i just i binged like all the Ipmans on Netflix. And it's like,

this is not a fair comparison because he is the star of that series. But to go from that to this, you're sitting there going, oh, where's Donnie? Like, is he going to do something more than just kind of show people how to wield a spear and stuff?

Yeah, I did the exact same thing after I watched it. I just turned on Ibn on Netflix because you basically get one training segment where you see Donnie in action and then he gets like half of a second

in a fight sequence where he's doing his thing. And then no more Donnie. And Jet Li is basically held captive throughout the movie. So it's a very unusual use of two incredible performers. Gong Li does get a lot more to do.

Heat check. Real heat check. I'd like for us to discuss Gong Li's performance and her character and the witch of it all. You know, the Ringer's Kate Halliwell has got a lot of feelings about whether or not the witch is a lesbian. And she certainly seems to be throwing a lot of energy

in Mulan's way. And that's just, this is in keeping with the long history of, of the gender bending Disney character and like the, the fan fiction character in terms of like a like a lack of characterization where you like project your desires for what you wish they would have done because it doesn't totally live up to exactly what you wanted out of them um amanda are you've been you were pro witch on the bad boys for life podcast um yeah that was fun that was good, here's the thing. I was just like, oh, you made a Maleficent character and you're setting up your Maleficent spinoff. I couldn't watch any of these changes like without the Disney specter around it. And I just kind of saw them as like Star Wars-ing it a bit and Disney-fying, you know,

Maleficent-ing a bit and making way for the next action figures and the spinoffs and like the whole universe. And, you know, so I was like, OK, I see what you're setting up and or you're going to try to if this works out. And I don't really have an opinion on it. I will also confess that at this point I was like, this wasn't in the real movie. Right. So it's a lot i i liked that there was another woman in the in the in the film in a interesting way because otherwise it can be like mulan and a lot of men i think adding the sister was also a nice choice though again you wish they had developed it more as you wish

they would develop most things but yeah i just saw it as another franchise can i ask a question quickly about that point about you know multiple women and theoretically prominent roles in the film how how actualized that prominence is is a different matter to me the counterpoint to that was that the witch had to die from Mulan to ultimately advance to the next stage of prominence in the story. And it was like, there was a, there can only be one recognized strong woman element to that, that I just, I did not enjoy. I confess. Even though I liked certain aspects of the witch character and performance in general. I confess that until you just said the witch died, I had forgotten that. Because I spent a lot of time like being like,

oh, but now she's a bird. But now she's a bird, but now she's a witch. Also, my husband came in at some point and started watching. And so I had like every time the bird showed up on the screen, I was like, that's the witch. But then it would like they would cut. And so you couldn't see the bird. And he's like, which bird? So, you know, I didn't invest in the character, is the short answer to your question. Yeah, there's some confusing aerial aspects to this movie. Obviously, Mushu had a kind of a flying energy

in the original film too. And now in this film, Mushu has been replaced by a witch and also a phoenix which may or may not be a literal phoenix or a metaphorical phoenix which I don't think was necessarily fully clarified for us as we were watching the movie

I don't know Mal you got to like what's going on here face I was very just to break in for a second I was confused as to what the advantage of shape-shifting for the witch was other than she's very killable in that form it's a good point it's a good logic point like why why are we doing it if we're extremely killable in that body why why do it um That confused me. Sorry to interrupt.

No, that's a good point. I think with the change of Mushu into the Phoenix, I found myself longing for Mushu's presence, certainly. And then in the course of reading the internet came to the deduction that I was maybe in the minority there, which I was a little surprised by. And I'm curious to ask for your opinions on that because I, you know, I don't want to strawman and imply that everybody has the same opinion. I think the opinions overall on Mulan and all of the specific aspects of the Mulan remake probably vary greatly person to person. I, especially because there was this introduction of the supernatural and so many other aspects of the story, it didn't seem like a leap for me that the animals, that the ancestors, that any magical creature would have been speaking and more fully or felt in in any way strange but that was obviously not the choice that they made so the phoenix i thought was lovely jason already mentioned fox strong fox vibes certainly but i longed for that guidance the the the the mentorship and the friendship that developed between Mushu and Mulan, the importance

of having not only a confidant, but another figure who is helping Mulan to chart a course, because I think that that's one of the things that can be difficult to navigate in a story that is ultimately about a certain individualistic spirit and the desire and ability ultimately to say, this is who I am and this is what I want to do. And that just has to be good enough for you, which is obviously awesome, right? But the way to subtly incorporate the reminder that it's okay to also let other people help you. I think that's important. And so obviously the Phoenix was still there as a guide, but I longed for that more fully realized relationship, I think.

That's a great, I think that's a great note. I think one of the, we've hit on one of the primary differences between the 1998 version of the story and the 2020 version of the story, which is Mulan in this tale is guided by the past, is guided by the words of her family and the direction that her family throughout, you know, their going back through their ancestors is giving her through the writing on the sword. There's no person that comes in and says, and gives her any kind of advice or any kind of light in the darkness or any kind of direction,

slight though that may be. It's primarily a reading of the past for her. And I think that's a big difference between this film and the previous film. And I mean, I guess you would wonder. Clearly, it seems like a very conscious decision to take all these kind of like other figures that had guided Mulan in the previous movie, turn them into symbols who don't really speak or instruct that much, and then have the really overt instructions come from this deep ancestral well. Today's episode is brought to you by Heineken. Heineken would like to remind you it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right.

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The movie I thought of the most while watching this movie is the last Jedi. And in some sense, the entire kind of new Skywalker trilogy. And I think, I think that's not a good influence. I do love the last Jedi, but I do think the desire to make Mulan more like a Rey-type figure, kind of to Jason's point here about whether or not you need a kind of direct eye-to-eye inspiration to be as great as you can be in your relationship to your past and your relationship to history and kind of what motivates greatness. And Mallory, we've talked on this show about kind of how the rise of Skywalker kind of screwed up all the expectations that we had. And you guys, of course, talked about it a lot on Binge Mode.

And I can, I just, it does. And it just seemed like an odd note to make Mulan more of a Ray than a Mulan because we already knew what we already knew what she was. We already knew what the point of that story was and it was individuated in a way that was effective. And so, you know, as much as I love the last Jedi and as many problems as I have with the other two films in that, in that trilogy, um, I'm curious to see now if this is going to end up being like a, an important text for filmmakers. Now,

maybe that's just the Disney influence in general and, you know, they're all keeping it in the family or maybe there's an international influence that goes along with that. But what just struck me as an, as a strange, strange parallel. Amanda,

would you have taken the magic out of this movie? Probably. Yes. You know, I thought mallory earlier and then kate hallowell in the the ringers exit survey put it best which is that the appeal of mulan was that she was a regular girl and she wanted to do you know something other than what regular girls are normally expected to do and then with the help of her friends and people who

believe in her as mallory points out she goes and does it and there's not magic and there's not some like she is not like the chosen one in that sort of Star Wars Harry Potter you know Joseph Campbell-y way she's just like a person who who lives up to her own potential and decides to do it and there is like i think there's real power in any character doing that and especially like a young woman i'm very i pro that you don't see it that much but i i don't i wouldn't say so in that sense the magic takes away from that but like i don't know a lot of people like magic and movies i honestly think that that's why they did this people were like oh well most of the time magic, so let's just give her magic powers. And it doesn't really seem like they thought through the implications past that. I think to the Star Wars point, I'm of two minds at once, and it's a little hard to navigate my own thoughts about this,

but I'll try. I think that there's something actually kind of cool about the fact that cinematic influence is cyclical. So when George Lucas is crafting Star Wars, there are so many things, places, people, ideas across decades and eras of cinema and also across cultures that influenced him. Obviously, Joseph Campbell, as mentioned a moment ago, Seven Samurai, Hidden Fortress. Also, quite clearly, the idea of the force, this energy that connects all things, that's chi. the influence seems very apparent, right? So to then build this story's influence in part on how Star Wars manifests that, I think is interesting. It's everything we've already talked about that works less well. You

know, we don't have to relitigate the Last Jedi debate here. I'm a huge fan of that movie and remain so, and only feel more strongly in favor of it after everything that happened with the final film. The thing that appealed to me so much about it was the idea of Rey being no one, coming from nowhere, not actually needing that magical name, the skeleton key of a certain name or lineage that unlocked the path for you. Now, the role that family plays in both the 98 Mulan and this version of Mulan is central. What are the inscriptions on the sword that Jason mentioned, loyal, brave, true, And then the additional inscription ends up being about this commitment to family. I think, again, that there's something about that that's quite nice, finding a way to discover and then realize who you are, what you want to be, and how you want to live your life while also trying to protect and care for the people you love and the people who helps you live your life.

The role of family is also very central to the original story. And I think the question there of what we're calling magic and what is intended to be a representation of something that's central to a given culture is just maybe not always handled in nimble or nuanced enough fashion. We're being a little hard on Mulan. Was there anything in the film that you guys really liked? Again, I thought the de-armoring scene really hit me.

That's about it. Again, I think that we're being hard on it. I'm being hard on it anyway in the context of loving the previous film um but it wasn't like aggressively terrible it was just fine just okay you want to heat this podcast up a little you're ready do it i yeah i was so pleased that the music was gone i like i'm sorry but I think the music in the original Mulan is like terrible.

Like you, you've been sold a false bill of goods. It's so boring. It's so plotting and- Boring? Yeah. And plot focused and the, like the melodies are lesser. Like, I mean, I like,

you guys were talking so much about reflection. I got eight emails about Christina Aguilera's cover of Reflection before Mulan came out. And I was like, oh my God, finally, it's going to be Reflection. And I was just like, this is just like an average-ass ballad about finding yourself. Okay, whatever. It's not Elton John. I can tell you that. And I did not miss the songs.

Well, let's just be honest. I didn't miss the songs. This is fine with me. Chef Dobbins is here to cook. Yeah. There's so much of... Okay, let me cite one specific lyric to prove my point. I think there's a lot of Amanda's...

Historically, I love it when people just cite lyrics to me. I know. I know you enjoy this. You really love this. You know, I think this really speaks to Amanda's preferred managerial style. And so I'd like to reference it for our textual consideration here. This is from I'll Make a Man Out of You, the song that is really the best song in the film. Heed my every order and you might survive. I feel like that speaks to you.

Sure. I mean, I think that's great. I also agree with you that I'll Make a Man Out of You is the best song in what are otherwise a collection of unmemorable songs. And it's fine. And like I will say, we've had this war before. And I think to some extent,

it is what people want out of a Disney song that differs. And that is definitely uh plot focused and cute and expositional and i am looking for you know just all-time pop songs crafted by one of the greatest artists of the 20th and 21st century, but that's okay. Your mileage may vary. By that measure, everything's coming up, you know, silver and bronze metal compared to the Lion King.

Is that not so? Talk to Mallory. You know, I mean, a whole new world, a whole new world absolutely crushes. Yeah,

I just can't wait to hit Jane. Amazing. Amazing. I know, but like that hear it change. Amazing. Amazing. I know, but like that, that is also, to me, that is the I'll make a man out of you out of the Disney song. Because even you can pace out where in the Disney movie, the certain song comes where the kid is like, I just have to like learn some things. And this is the peppy song that all the children get very excited about.

But Mallory, you're a grown up now. Okay. And if we had to sit through. I still have a child within. I know, but if we had to sit through like a half-grown-up movie, which is like, again, the problem with this is that it's made for grown-ups, but also made for children. And sometimes you can either like, you can either have the childlike spirit or you can just do an adult thing, but this halfway between purgatory it never works out but you can't ask a grown-up to be like yeah time for a peppy song with a dragon and a cricket about like i don't know i'll hear you i can't and that that specifically is the the the brew that is that is so special is that all of those things can exist

in the same like 82 minute span for the cartoon movies. And it's flawless. It all works together. There's such harmony, not only in each song, but across that constellation of musical offerings.

Top five Disney songs, my personal list. Number one, I'll Make a Man Out of You. Number two, I Just Can't Wait to Be King. Number three, Part of Your World. Just a classic. Part of Your World is also in my top five. Okay, because that's amazing. I three, part of your world. Just a classic. Part of your world is also in my top five.

Okay? Because that's amazing. I think that's the only one we have in common. Actually, we might have two in common. But here's the thing because part of your world both does the exposition

and it puts you in a time and place but it communicates like a much broader yearning that people of all ages can relate to. It's deeply sad. It's deeply sad. Something there

from Beauty and the Beast. Catchy. It's good. It's like something there from beauty and the beast it's good it's like the fifth best beauty and the beast song but that's fine i love a b a b-side jam you know i think i think part of what we're kind of like talking around in the like in terms of the 2020 version of mulan is like a real an ingredient that was missing besides all the other ingredients that were missing is this experience of like lightness of, of something to kind of balance out this, you know, swords in the desert,

in the, in the, you know, in the Western Chinese wasteland kind of battle, medieval battle feel. Some kind of comedic flair, something that would allow us to laugh a little bit. It just was completely missing. Now, the songs certainly do that in the original Mulan, as well as the characters who often sing those songs. But there's just nothing of that here there's nothing of that you know instead the stuff that takes its place is

like these long conversation scenes between a witch and Mulan where it's uh I have no idea what what energy is happening here um and and that's primarily the thing that I I found missing whether you whether you like the songs of the original Mulan or not, that kind of up one. That's my big dad opinion. But to Jason's point, I completely agree. There's kind of a humorlessness to this movie and that is... It didn't have to be this way.

It's an interesting thing. This movie's directed by Nicky Caro, who we haven't talked about at all, who is a New Zealand filmmaker who's made some good films. Whale Rider kind of put her on the map. Uh, and she made a film with Charlize Theron, um, in the two thousands called North country. And all of her films have one thing in common,

which is they're kind of humorless. They're very earnest, dramatic stories that center women in the middle of the frame. And so in some ways she's a logical pick for this movie. In other ways, it just kind of feels like she's perhaps tonally not right. And the script is not totally right for capturing what people love about the original. And usually there's some corporate machinations and then there's some creative choices. And those two things together tend to give us the results that we get in a movie like this. But I do find it to be fascinating because this movie has become a bit of a lightning rod in a couple of ways. We mentioned obviously that it's going to Disney plus, and that means that a lot of people are going to see it at home and it's going to have a pretty wide international

audience. Um, but also the circumstances under the wonder, which the film were made have come under fire in the last couple of days. Uh the fact that where this film was shot and how it was shot, you know, it was filmed in Xinjiang, the region in China, where Muslims have been detained in mass internment camps. And it's really become a magnet

for anger over the Chinese Communist Party promoting nationalism and ethnic Han chauvinism. And I don't know if irony is the right word for that, but given the context of the original story of Mulan, it seems like Disney has whether wandered unknowingly or perhaps made a decision production-wise to just forge ahead despite what's happening in that area of China that they're in a little bit of trouble. And then additionally,

Yifei Liu, who is the star of this movie, who we haven't really talked about very much, last year, almost a year ago, August 2019, triggered the hashtag Ban Mulan movement when she tweeted support for Hong Kong police and used the phrase, you can beat me up now, referring to the fact that people

would not agree with her in showing support for the HK police. So this movie, while being somewhat unsatisfying for fans of Mulan perhaps, is just a real tempest in a teapot and kind of underscores a lot of the problems with doing, I think, actually the thing, Amanda, that you're identifying, which is trying to make a movie for everyone and an attempt to kind of authenticate the experience in some way and tell a Chinese tale. They've also kind of driven over some of the complexities. Jason, I mean, we saw a version of this conversation in the NBA last year when Daryl Morey tweeted, and this feels like, in a way, a kind of

similarly Disney-connected cultural, I don't know, it's a mishegas. I don't know, what do you think of everything that's been going on with the movie i think that all of it is and including the the um the kind of controversies around uh daryl morey's tweet and the and the nba's engagement with china is all kind of the symptom of a larger thing, which is, you know, like after the collapse of the Soviet Union, it really felt like, okay, capitalism won. And not only did it win, it's the necessary ingredient for democracy, right? So, you know, a very bipartisan idea from Bill Clinton to George W. was this idea that if we engage economically with China, we will liberalize them through our influence. and in many other places is maybe that influence is not going in the direction that we always think it should or that we thought it would. Maybe it's going the other direction. Or maybe this is all just kind of turbulence as these ideas crash against each other.

It's difficult to say, but I think kind of analyzing these conversations in the light of the wider kind of global political context, I think is pretty necessary. You know, these are whether Chinese style capitalism is compatible with Western liberal ideas that are also enmeshed in our economic system is kind of like an experiment that is ongoing at this particular time. Yeah, I mean, Amanda, here's what this strikes me as. Yes. Kind of regardless of your opinion specifically of the Ban Mulan movement or anything else surrounding it, it feels like a serious reflection of what Jason is underlining, which is the desire to maximize reach and to find as many people as possible. There are more people in China than there are in any other nation in the world. And so that is a rich space to discover fandom. And in an attempt to find that fandom, you have to understand

and respect the complexity of the culture that you are attempting to essentially invade, invade with your product. And the Chinese box office, I've written about this in the past, is incredibly important to the American movie industry. And in attempting to tell particularly a Chinese story, you of course want to capture the Chinese box office. But in doing so, and in capturing that story and what could be deemed quote unquote authentic, so many pitfalls here. Yes. And this one in particular was targeted at the Chinese box office. And in so much of the discussion of when is Mulan going to come out and how will they release it?

And will it go to theaters or whatever? Like the ability for this movie to open in China was central to it because it's a part of their business plan. And that is what this is at the end of the day. It's Disney trying to make a ton of money and they've realized that making a lot of this money in China is, well, it's what they're trying to do with this.

And, you know, it's what Jason said. It becomes, like, incredibly complicated. And we have thought that, you know, capitalism thinks that there's just, like, one market that can solve it all and I think this movie proves in its content and in its release that there are a lot of different markets and that like it is not one size fits all and that it becomes intensely complicated and perhaps they were not uh prepared for all of those complications now any thoughts on the ongoing crisis around this movie I think not prepared or didn't care, you know? Yeah. And that's obviously upsetting to think about. I mean, an overt thank you is pretty appalling. And I agree with Jason and what everyone has said about the imperative nature of acknowledging that and reconciling that. I mean,

I think that the global nature of moviemaking and cultural consumption in general does not free people from the need to interrogate how these things are made. It's quite the opposite. So it's important to talk about. So can we just talk a little bit about the forthcoming Disney live action animation films, the new versions of this that we're going to get? Because I'm just kind of curious. We're not going to be able to solve the problem of globalization and everything that Bill Clinton wrought in the 90s. That's just not going to happen here on the podcast. But what we can do is make fun of some Disney movies. That's something that we're well suited to here on the show. Coming next spring is Cruella, which is a, this is actually the third live action 101 Dalmatians movie.

But this is, I think, in a new iteration starring Emma Stone. I'm into this. Emma Stone, she was the winner of the 35 under 35 episode of the big picture earlier this year. And this is her next project. And let me just say this movie's got six screenwriters. One of which is Jez Butterworth, who might be the best screenwriter in America. The other is Tony McNamara, creator of The Favorite and The Great. In addition to Aileen Brosh McKenna,

the famed... Queen. A legend in the space. Movies directed by Craig Gillespie, who most recently made I, Tonya. So, there's a lot going on here with Cruella. You guys in or out on Cruella?

After that, I'm in. Big Emma Stone fan. Huge Emma Stone fan. This, you know, it's kind of like a, who's this for is my reaction. Who's it for? Who's been out there being like, you know what, we need more of that dog-abusing

lady. Let's get her. Here's the logline for this film, in case you're wondering. Set in 1970s London, young fashion designer Cruella DeVille becomes obsessed with dogs' skins, especially Dalmatians, until she eventually becomes

a ruthless and terrifying legend. Well, that's upsetting. What? How is that the movie? This is, it's an origin story for a woman who loves dog skins. I want more for Emma Stone. Yeah. I can't believe that this is happening. I also still just, I love Emma Stone so much, but like you just rigged that 35 under 35 movie draft, and I'm just now reflecting on this fact. We could have had some discussions just based on what you just described. Anyway. To get away quickly from the hot button issue of relitigating the 35 under 35,

it just hit me that maybe this is for uh the next generation of rocky horror picture show people just going off the off the publicity photos of emma stone as cruella i'm getting some very strong rocky horror vibes from it maybe there's some kind of like camp experience that they're that they're shooting for but it's honestly confusing. I'm confused. I don't know if this has music. She makes clothes out of dogs? Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah.

Yeah. It's kind of like, it's like a Silence of the Lambs prequel as well. You know, she's just all about human skin, dog skin. Okay. A couple more films that are coming soon.

These are probably more in 2022 2023 The Little Mermaid has been much discussed okay directed by Rob Marshall who most recently brought us Mary Poppins Returns

not really my favorite film scripted by Jane Goldman who is a very respected screenwriter who I think wrote a

not picked up Game of Thrones prequel. One of the not pursued prequels. And she's written some X-Men films and Kingsman films. And this remake is notable because, well, for a few reasons. But I think specifically because Halle Bailey has been cast as Ariel in this movie. And I also did not realize this, but apparently Melissa McCarthy is playing Ursula.

Whoa. Which is like almost too perfect. Mal, you in or out on this? Well, you know, again, I said earlier that I hadn't seen a single one of these live action remakes until Mulan, so I don't want to overstate

my enthusiasm or likelihood for engaging with them. But just hearing you lay out the the the key details i'm compelled okay if you're not jason if you're not sold yet how about this javier bardem is playing king triton yeah this is uh here's the thing are there going to be the songs who's sebastian otherwise i think about flounder because otherwise played by David Diggs. Oh, wow. Wait, are you making this up? No.

So there must be, so I'm getting here that the songs may be there. If you're going to cast David Diggs, maybe we're going to get the songs. I hope we do because I think we, the trap that we could potentially fall into with a live action Little Mermaid such that you are describing

is that kind of Aladdin weirdly horny trap. You know, it's there in the text. The horniness of the Little Mermaid story. And so I'm hoping we avoid that particular pitfall with the live action version of this. Can I ask a quick

question? Not to open up this big pick debate again, but why is the horniness a bad thing that's again that's the one sex literally flashes across the screen in the original lion king agreed but again there's a there's a certain kind of uh there, I don't want to say subtlety, but there's a subtextual nature of the horniness that contributes to the general fun and energy and attitude of the thing. There's a song called Can You Feel the Love Tonight, and it plays while the lions fuck in a lagoon. Is that subtle? Again.

But it's classy because it's Elton John. You won an Oscar for that. Listen, if there's anybody that knows how to turn sex into subtext, it's Elton John's entire career. So I think that, you know, the thing that made the live-action Aladdin so weirdly off-putting was that the sex was just on main. It was just out there. Right. Hold on a second. Hold on.

The whole like the sex part is good is not good. The sex that found its way into Disney films is something that old white men who animated these films and frequently wrote them attempted to insert into the films unknowingly to subvert their life's work that is where most of that comes from now you could say can you feel the love tonight is a love story and that that is a reflection of that but the sex that you're describing in smoke mal that was not above board no of course not it's like a famous not above board movie making thing, right? But I'm talking more about the actual text, not the gross wink wink perversion and subversion.

Like the parts of the story that are about understanding your yearnings, that's kind of like classic coming of age material. Now I, again, have not seen the live action a lot, and so I don't actually know what you guys are talking about. I'm just saying more generally

that a sexual awakening is actually part of a coming of age story. I agree with this, but the change that they need to make in The Little Mermaid is not getting rid of the sex. What's wrong with you, Jason?

I mean, it's the whole, but they need to change the motivation. It's the presentation of it. Because The Little Mermaid is ultimately about Ariel just giving up her voice and but like they need to change the motivation because the little well the little mermaid is ultimately like about ariel just like giving up her voice and many other things in order to be able to fuck a dude which is like not a lesson that we should be teaching any young person of any gender or sexual preference at any point okay like you should get to want to make a life

for yourself and then at the end also you get to have sex because sex can be a positive experience if done for the right reasons which is what we need to be teaching children so don't like take the fun out but actually maybe change the motivation because by the way the little mermaid is very screwed up and i love it um i just wanted to share a couple more casting decisions around the little mermaid because this is really just the most interesting movie of all time. Apparently, Awkwafina is playing Scuttle, the diving bird, and Jacob Tremblay will be portraying Flounder. What? So, I think David Diggs, Jacob Tremblay, and Awkwafina are just voices. But I do think that Javier Bardem will be appearing

in his Javier Bardem form as Triton. Awesome. Which also, let's just, I need to give you the description of King Triton because I'm not sure I really thought about him in this way. Ariel's overprotective father and the king of Atlantica who is xenophobic towards humans.

Xenophobic. Extraordinary. The Little Mermaid is a rich text. There are a couple of other Disney live action movies coming up, including Peter Pan and Wendy from David Lowery, who has previously made a live action remake, Pete's Dragon. But I think Cruella and the Little Mermaid are probably the most likely to come soon. And I'm kind of unnerved by both of them. They both seem really weird, if I'm being totally honest. Any closing thoughts on the state of Disney, Mulan, or otherwise? I'll just say I missed Shang. I understand.

Jason Reade, a producer on the film, has just said outright that it was a decision made taking the Me Too era into account, not thinking that it was appropriate to have the commanding officer and Mulan develop romantic attachment to each other. Of course, that makes sense. Dividing Shang into two characters, you have Dan Yan's commander character and then Hong Hui,

where the attraction develops with a peer instead of a commanding officer. That makes sense. But Shang is a beloved character. The aspect of the Shang-Mulan initial attraction as it develops in the 98 film and Shang standing as a bisexual character

is a very important thing to a lot of people. And we haven't really talked about Shang yet. So just wanted to mention him. No Shang thoughts from any of you? You know, one thing that I felt rewatching the 1998, with all respect to Shang, like I always get a little bummed out in stories like this when the girl gets to go do whatever she wants and be whoever she wants to be but like oh there's still a wedding at the end like you know i'm a little bit like let's go full why do we need a love interest let's just let her and that said is the world's number one romantic comedy fan so i i would have preferred i understand that shang is an important character to a lot of people but i would prefer that they just take out the love interest altogether this is also what

made me mad in rise of skywalker well one of is also what made me mad in Rise of Skywalker. Well, one of many things that made me mad in Rise of Skywalker. It's like, why do we have to throw this in at the end just to put girls back in the romantic box? But just my take. JC,

any closing thoughts? My closing thoughts would be that in the original versions of these movies the music plays an important emotional and uh and storytelling role and when you lose that when you take out the music those roles still have to be filled by something and let's do it more successfully than Mulan did next time. That's all. Should we sing together? You guys want to go out on a song? You're unsuited for the rage of remakes.

No? Okay. No, I'm not. Mal, that was very off-key. I can't sing. I really appreciate you showing your true singing voice here. Singing and never have been, but I love music and I love the way music makes me feel. Amanda, I think it'd be useful if we recorded at least one episode in the style of a musical

where we map out the whole episode, we do the outline, and then just in the middle of one of the sections, we just start singing what's written down on the outline. Are you game? Sure. Yes. And then at the end, we can do the Will Smith credits remix. Yes, that sounds perfect. With DJ Khaled. You guys, you don't understand at the end of Aladdin, he just does friend like me, but with DJ Khaled, like as a rep, you have to watch it. Rest assured you do not have to watch it. I promise you.

That's so crazy. Okay. Whatever. Trying to relate. Love of music. Mallory, Jason, Amanda,

thank you guys so much for revealing your youth and talking about Mulan today. Thanks for having us. Thank you again to Jason, Mallory, and Amanda. Stay tuned to The Big Picture later this week, where we will be breaking down in all its forms the new film from Charlie Kaufman. It's called I'm Thinking of Ending Things, and it's on Netflix.

Give that one a watch if you're interested before listening to the pod pod and see you then.