The Big Picture - ‘Disclosure Day’ Is Steven Spielberg’s True Believer Manifesto. Kneel!

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

On today’s show, Sean and Amanda cover one of their most anticipated movies of the year: Steven Spielberg’s alien thriller ‘Disclosure Day,’ starring Josh O’Connor and Emily Blunt. Before diving in, Sean revels in the glory of an all-time New York Knicks victory that extended their NBA Finals lead over the San Antonio Spurs to 3-1 (0:43). Then, they hit myriad movie news headlines and, most importantly, react to the first trailer for Aaron Sorkin’s ‘The Social Reckoning’ (12:47). Next, they have a wide-ranging conversation about ‘Disclosure Day,’ which they found to be an incredibly fascinating movie, not without flaws, and an amazing platform for Emily Blunt, who delivers the best performance of her career (38:05). Finally, they go into full spoilers and break down specific plot points, character motivations, and the final shot of the film (1:05:29). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture A Conversation Show about Disclosure Day. On today's episode, we will dig into Stephen Spielberg's return to Blockbuster Filmmaking, the sci-fi epic Disclosure Day, the iconic director's 30-fifth feature film. This is among our most anticipated movies of 2026, and we will dive deep into a spoiler-filled conversation about the film's plot, its ideas about life beyond our own, and what it all means. But first, we'll talk about some movie news right after this.

Okay, Dobbins, right at the top of... the ledger in movie news. Incredible restraint to not just make this. This is a conversation podcast about the New York next. We did it. Unreal. Like, honestly, unbelievable. I was watching live with my four-year-old son and my husband.

It was way past bedtime, but we were like, can you, you got a, you got to witness history. Though we didn't know that we were going to get the OG and an ovi tip. Yeah. I don't know what to do with myself. I don't know what to do with myself. Let's talk a little bit about it. Incredible, incredible, final moments

that I've watched from like every angle, 45 different times. It's, you know, been set to various scores and cinematic moments. That's great. It's a meme.

Perfect. Beautiful. Knicks win. The whole MSG goes completely wild. Everyone is smiling. Even Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld. But the two and a half hours or three hours really leading up to that,

inexplicable. And there was, the Knicks were done by 29 points. This is the biggest comeback in NBA finals history. That's right. What happened? Not to, you know, not to be my court side reporter, but like, what, what happened? I'll give you my perspective on the experience. Yeah. I've been watching all of these games at home. Sure. I've been watching them in my living room with my family. Yeah. On Friday, I watched with CR and Phoebe. That's beautiful. But otherwise, I've been watching this mostly with Alice, with Eileen. Sometimes Alice and Eileen need to be like on the other side of the room. Yeah, for sure.

But like, why don't you guys play a board game while we endure this? This is been a very tense, very close series to very evenly match teams. I've very rarely been in this position. The NICs were in the World Series in 2015. Remember that. They were in the World Series. There was a Subway series in 2000. They, the Knicks have not been in the final since 1999.

Jets, Lull? The Jets have not been to the Super Bowl since 1969. So I just don't have a ton of experience with this kind of high-stakes series. But I'm also trying to be a grown-up person, a father, an adult. So watching the first two minutes of this game, I've already been a big crybaby about the officiating in the series. And I felt like Kat got two fouls in the first two minutes. And it just immediately went full doomer. You know, I was just like, this is horrible.

The world is against us. You weren't alone. There's a historic Aisha Curry tweet from, I believe, 2016 of, you know, it's rigged. I don't know what to say. I just saw it live. It's rigged. And that was being recirculated as soon as the game started last night. And I've been living in that tweet for four games.

It's really, you know, Victor Wenamma, it's a long story. I'll say I'm certainly happy about his existence today because he changed. Choked. But after those first two catfowls, and then the fact that the Knicks just got their doors blown off, the spurs were unbelievable in the first quarter. They were shooting the lights out. I would, like, shut down.

I really was shutting down. And then halfway through the second quarter, I just shared this with Jack and our colleague Anthony Devundo. I just moved from watching the game on the TV to watching on my phone. Okay. And I was sitting and playing with Alice while watching the game on my phone because they were down 25 points. Which is certainly the energy that you want to bring to you spending time with your child.

It wasn't ideal. This is kind of like... But it was better than just going into the... the basement and not doing any, like not looking at anyone. Yeah, that's true. Though, remember when you used to, like, play with Alice and also listen to a podcast at the same time? When she was, like, six months old. Sure, but they can tell.

Yeah, we're good. Alice are good, trust me. I know, I know. She and I are in good shape. Yeah. But by the third quarter, when they cut it to 15, here's what I'll say. One, I was doing the hardcore Dumer reverse jinx thing, where I was just like, they're going to lose this game. They won't win another game in this series.

This is classic Knicks. The Trump stink. the James Dolan interview on WFAN, Taylor Swift with her grift and ass sitting in the front row. That was inexcusable. Listen, listen. Taylor Swift was at a Knicks game a month ago, rooting for the calves. I know, sitting like one foot above the floor. And it's very stupid.

I don't know what's happening with Cleveland seating also. But yeah, but also just like, ladies, sit down, you know? Like, it's fine. Congratulations. You're so rich and famous and allegedly getting married at MSG, even though I don't believe that. that you can have court side seats. First of all, give them to someone else, honestly. But second of all, if you're going to be there in your Stevie Nix shirt,

like you don't need to be jumping up and down that hard. Okay? You just arrived. Have some, you know, it's in dexterous. As Jason Concepcion put it, the person who would have been sitting there was probably like a hedge fund manager from New York. It's not like we took this away from a blue collar lifelong Nix fan. But all of that was very ostentatious and silly.

Kylie took the seat away from Josh Lafty. And I was, I raised my. eyebrows at that. Yeah. Well, I saw Josh got another court afterwards. Anyhow, in the third quarter, I basically, like,

I had to leave and just go watch the game by myself. Because after all my doomerism, after on my multiple Nix text thread saying they won't win another game, it's over, it's over, it's over. Which is some combination of reverse jinks and just feeling destroyed.

Bill Simmons was the first person who said when they were down 29. The Nicks can definitely come back from this and they have done it before. And I didn't believe that in the moment. Okay. But that was right around when I locked into the game in a real way. And the final quarter and a half of that game is the best I've ever felt watching sports in my entire life. That was the OG tip in. Nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever touch that. I mean, that is,

that was elation. I couldn't breathe. Tears in my eyes. I truly, like, felt my body shaking. Actually, literally something that happened to me, because I was drinking, I won't be a surprise to people last night, is my ear clogged when he hit the shot. And it had. had been clogged all the way up until an hour ago and I took a pseudofedrine. Okay. So it unclogged? No, like it was no, it clogged because it was like I had no control over my function. The atmospheric pressure just changed in your body?

Yes. Okay. That's good. And listen. I mean, I just, and you know, and then I spent five hours listening to pods looking at tweets, just laughing. Yeah. You know, like reveling in a sports center in a way I haven't in 30 years. It was just the greatest.

No, the job's not done. No. It's only 3-1. Right, back to San Antonio. Back to San Antonio. Look, the spurs are amazing. They're too young. That's been the issue.

The issue is they've made a ton of mistakes and the Knicks have capitalized on the mistakes. They're insanely talented. Wembe's terrifying. I do feel justified in everything I said. He's a bully. He's a dirty player. He's also probably the most gifted NBA player that's come around since maybe LeBron, give or take Yokic. Yeah.

So we got to try to beat him one more time. But that was the best, man. That's why I've been watching sports for 43 years. That was the absolute best feeling you can have. Can I offer my reviews of some of the memes that have made it my way or the reactions? Sure. So I was happy that they found my Christians Dior Nixon 4 guy for number five. And I hope he's happy.

Sure. That was instant poetry. Yeah. Mom Dani's reaction on the chair in the bar. Very good. I was just telling that story. That was great stuff. It's really, really, really good stuff.

Everything he's doing, two thumbs up. And then the group of New Yorkers on the Upper West Side who just started chaining UPS at a UPS truck are doing the work, you know? And that, to me, captures what is great about New York City. And that's fun. Like, this is, this is gone beyond. I'm not on the bandwagon. I'm not Taylor Swift. Yeah.

But I'm watching. I'm excited. It's, you know, a phenomenon. It's a pop cultural thing. It is. That's what we were discussing just before. I think I'm so torn because people have asked me. multiple times since the playoffs started, and especially when they started going on this massive run,

like, will you go back, will you go back, will you go back? And I always say I will never go back. I can't watch games like this in person. Like I'm too tense. It's too difficult. But Saturday night, San Antonio, you're not going to try? I can't. Well, now if I do it, I'm afraid of jinksing everything. I mean, we've just never had this much good fortune. They've now won 14 to 15 playoff games. No, I know. I mean, this is going to end up becoming, if they win, one of the most astonishing playoff runs in sports history. So I can't risk. I can't fuck with that. Okay. Will you watch game six, game five alone?

I think I'll just do what I've done with every game, which is we'll all sit down together, we'll fire it up. If it's going poorly, we'll kind of shut it down a little bit. I'll move to another room. I got to just stick with what's worked. We have to do a bedtime reset in my house because things have just really gone awry. But it's tough because once game five turns on, Knox is going to be like, I want to watch the next.

Like, he's in. He knows about it. And he knows that he understood that. moment, I think Zach and I both, like, you know, jumped off the couch when it happened. And, you know, this is something that, like, this actually makes sports fandoms outside of your home city. I'm not one of those people who roots for a team that isn't from my home city. But if you were a young person watching the Dallas Cowboys in the 90s, you could become a Cowboys fan forever if you lived in New York or Canada or Wyoming. If you were a baseball fan, a young baseball fan in 2004 when the Red Sox beat the Yankees, you could become a Red Sox fan for life no matter where you lived.

there have been a lot of example I mean Patrick Mahomes fans have come up despite not being from Kansas City over the years like this is something that happens with sports and the next team is I feel like they're pretty likable it's impossible for me to have any objectivity

about this but they're not braggadocious they're real like put your head down and work guys they're like they're adults they're all between the ages of 28 and 31 and there's a togetherness to them that I find really special so yeah I'm just I don't know what to do with myself.

I also was watching just to try to understand what energy we would have today for the rest of this podcast. And this is a big deal. This is New Spielberg movie. You're, you know, your best friend, Stephen. One of the only things that could possibly interrupt the general momentum of a movie podcast is a historic way. So I really needed them to close so that we could do this appropriately. And I appreciate it. I understand you're still like it was a roller coaster.

You know, you're vulnerable. Your, you know, hearts on the line. And it's not over yet. Nope. But we're going to do our best. And I appreciate what they did. I think if they had gotten blown out, I would have brought my A game to the pod. I would have just been like, it happens.

Yeah. We'll probably lose the series. I would have been in Duma Town. But I wouldn't have been like, this is going to affect how I do my thing. If they had lost a one point game after the comeback, I might have pushed the recording of Friday. Okay. Just putting that out there for you.

I'm glad you didn't because the traffic getting here tomorrow for World Cup purposes is going to be very difficult. That's an incredibly good point. Yeah. So I'm glad we're not coming to the office. I am coming to your house. I was going to say, are you locked in for Friday? Yeah. Including my on the men husband. I mean, what a sports week. Yeah. What a sports week. I'm excited. You know, your husband had a sports surgery. He did with an incredibly handsome sports doctor, which yeah, he did not mention until the guy walked in the room and I was like, hello. Thanks to him. It went well. Nice. So he's recovering well. But yeah, it was sort of like Neil Ella Trosh?

No, is that the train wreck character? No, that's the guy who does the Achilles surgeries that worked on Aaron Rogers as Achilles and all the... No, but, I mean, it was a sports surgery in order to get his shoulder working again. And, you know, it was explained to me about moving, stabilizing the muscles and something called remplissage, which is the French term for filling in something that wasn't there. So... Hey, oh. I didn't say it. Rem plesage, she said.

Interesting. Which the handsome surgeon pronounced very well. Yeah, but anyway, train wreck, good movie. Yeah, I'm a fan. Let's reimplage the movie podcast. Let's fill in what we were not doing. Thank you to the listeners who endured eight minutes of discussion of the NBA. There is some movie news before we discussed Disclosure Day.

I got quite a few notes on social media asking us to immediately react to the release of the social reckoning trail. This is the new movie from Aaron Sorkin, written and directed. It is effectively a sequel to the social network, which was our favorite movie collectively of the 21st century when we did 25 for 25. Well, okay. You know, I've been having a lot of Fincher conversations. Fincher back in the news because of Cliff Booth. Right. And somebody was bullying me about not making it Zodiac, just putting that out there for you.

That person is welcome to bully you all they want because they can never bully me. Like, I'm immovable. And it was a joint list. It's like, good luck, buddy. Social Network. I assume it was a man and a woman. Oh, okay. Social Network had its rightful place at number one on that list.

The Social Reckoning comes, I think, with the weight of that expectation. And now, remind me, you missed this trailer? I did. It was on Monday night. So I had to stay and have dinner, family dinner. So Matt Bellany and I saw this trailer. Was this the lentils? I think it might have been the lentils.

I believe it was. Yeah. So Matt and I saw this trailer at CinemaCon in April. And, you know, Matt was very excited about the kind of meme potential of Jeremy Strong. I generally was like, this looks like a disaster. Right. I think that there was something more interesting about what was happening with Jeremy Strong playing Mark Zuckerberg in the movie. But what we saw of Jeremy Allen White and Mikey Madison and the Wall Street Journal reporter and the whistleblower component, I thought looked very bad. And here we are. Yes. You've seen the trailer now. I did. I did. I did. I watched it this morning because it hit my inbox yesterday. And I was like, I'm not emotionally ready for this. We're recovering from sports surgery. I don't have to do this yet. What is a tumultuous week. Yeah, so I did it this morning.

And my verdict is absolutely not. Like, I just absolutely not top to bottom. And I think I am historically more black licorice on Jeremy Strong than anybody else. And I think when he's good, he's very good, but he is always Jeremy Strong. to me doing something to me as well. And so I was nervous about it anyway, what I've seen not positive. I agree with everything you said about the Mikey Madison and Jeremy Allen White reporter whistleblower type situation, which to be fair, we didn't get that much of, but it was certainly the we got stilted expository dialogue. Exactly.

And, you know, what this reminded me, in addition to this being a sequel, this is very clearly a movie. movie about Facebook and not about Mark Zuckerberg. And I think what is magical about social network and many other movies. And honestly, this is germane to the conversation we're going to have about Disclosure Day is that it uses the personal in order to explore the larger, the larger system and the larger world. And, you know, what we learn about ourselves or this person is then reflected. And this is just about how big tech is bad, according to what I'm seeing. And I know, you know? And that just doesn't seem as interesting. Obviously, also, the filmmaking is like a joke, but we knew that that was going to be the case. Please hire a real director. Group projects are good.

Yeah. Someone on social media yesterday just posted the social network trailer just to cleanse the timeline. And just looking again at the trailer and conjuring that feeling, it did remind you. that we're, it's a lot to live up to for a movie like this. The movie looks to me like a, like a standard dokey drama, you know? It looks like an HBO movie. I like movies like that if they're done well. And there have been a lot of them over the last 20 years that can be like entertaining and past the time.

But this is coming in the shadow of a movie that we both revere. And I think you're right that it does feel like it's a movie about a system and a way that we have changed our lives rather than the character study of the social network, which was what is so powerful about that film is trying to explain. explore this sphinx-like brady young man who changed the world. Yes. And this is about the way that a corporation makes decisions and how it hurts people, which is not fundamentally dramatic, especially because there's just a lot of

reportage about what's transpired. Now, look, I'm guilty of doing the thing that you just did when we saw the Oppenheimer trailer. I was like, we know what happens. If you've read the book, you may remember that. People were so mad at me when I said that. And it was very easy for me to change my tune when I saw the movie. So if the movie is good enough, it'll wash it away.

It's just not a promising trailer at all. It looks very, very overwritten. And that's one thing that you can say about the wonderful collaboration between Sorkin and Fincher is, they made each other better. They elevated what each other is interested in in such unique ways. And sometimes that friction stylistically can make something special. And this just feels like a guy holding the ball by himself. Yeah.

You can also say that of Steve Jobs, which I also saw comparisons to. And that is a Sork and Danny Boyle collaboration. And that is obviously even closer. Well, it's also about a tech person and a tech person later in life and kind of the legend of someone. But it's definitely about a person. And the way that is structured is around three discrete events. I mean, this is alarming in that it just seems to the breadth of it of what it's trying to communicate over time.

I don't know. It's a lot to bite off. You know, the movie comes out this fall. We'll be covering it for sure. I think there's something kind of interesting about a movie like this, actually being a, on its face, you think this is what we always ask for. Why can't we get back to like adult dramas? But it also feels like kind of a old-fashioned IP play.

And the decision to include, we told you about this, but to include hand covers bruise, the Trent Rezner and Atticus Ross score at the conclusion of the trailer when, in fact, those composers are not a part of the movie. I understand it as a marketing tactic, but it's a bait and switch. You know, this is not from the people

who brought you the social network. It's from one person who was a part of the social network. Let me ask you this, one thing. If it were Eisenberg and not strong, would you feel better about it? Yes. I would. I mean, I said part of my concern is Jeremy Strong, much like Aaron Sorkin, I think, is best when mediated.

And, well, when there are, like, part of on a ensemble. I know what you mean. I think he's incredibly talented and I've liked many of his performances. But I think when it's not just the Jeremy Strong show, when he is in response to other people, when there is more than like his performance. holding something together is when it gets interesting. And this looks like the Jeremy Strong Show. So I don't know. I don't think anyone is set up to succeed.

How about that? I can't say I disagree with you. We also saw the Whale Fall trailer, which you and I did both see at Cinema Con. Just rock out. Terrifying. Truly, truly great. It's so good. We tried to tell you.

And it's pretty exciting. I'm very pumped for this movie. Now, they did effectively show, they made the trailer, the clip that we were. we saw. We saw a clip we didn't see a proper trailer. They showed us a little bit of a tease with the Josh Brolin character being the father of the Austin Abrams character at the beginning of the trailer. But then they basically cut the sequence that we watched of a man

being subsumed by a whale, in addition to a squid being subsumed by a whale. And a lot of people who seem were just like, this is a little too stressful for me. And it does have a little bit of a horror movie quality, but I think it's obviously not showing much of the story at all. And it's obviously a survival movie. It doesn't answer any of my questions.

About breathing. No, about what happens when you're swallowed by a whale. Right, but wasn't so much of that related to like the oxygen and what was... No, it was about gravity. Oh, gravity. Yeah. It was gravity. But I think that we did get word from the filmmaker by proxy.

Yes. That there is gravity inside of a whale. Yeah. Though then I heard from some whale experts that there are some issues, like being swallowed by a whale is sort of a multi-stop, multi-step and impossible process. You wouldn't really be swallowed whole. I see. Something about a whale's esophagus being the size of a grapefruit or something. You heard from whale experts.

Yes, so did you. Did I? Yes. Wow. So we'll see. We'll learn. I'm really excited. Are you aware that the author of Whalefall, the novel, recently won the Pulitzer Prize?

I certainly am. His name is Daniel Crow. Yes, but not for Whalefall for Angel Down, which is apparently an one-sentence novel. It's apparently a horror novel, and I actually would like to read it. A lot of people, a lot of my favorite horror movie podcasters have aggressively recommended it. I think Gilbert Cruz also recommended it to me. Yes, Gilbert Cruz is the person who let me know about this Pulitzer Prize. Yeah, I'm pumped for Whalefall.

Me too. I think it's in real stark contrast to the social reckoning. And they come out in the same month, so that's wonderful. Yeah. I wanted to also mention there's a trailer this week for Once Upon a Time in Harlem, which is David and William Greaves's documentary about a reunion of several participants of the Harlem Renaissance, which we saw at Cannes. And actually, I don't know if we ever talked about it in our recap episode or any of our follow-up episodes, partially because the film originally premiered at Sundance and got raves. Neon is distributing the movie. But I wanted to just put a circle around it and wanted to let people know that I thought it was a very cool, unique special document that apparently has been 50 years.

in the making since these conversations were captured. And I thought it was very well edited and really interesting. And, you know, is probably the presumptive favorite for best documentary at the Academy Awards right now. Anything you wanted to share about that? I really enjoyed seeing it. And I thought that, as you said, it's, you know, inventive without being showy of how it presents the information and the footage that it has. Yes. And well edited and we're checking out.

So you'll get to. Okay. So Academy Award News. speaking of. The Academy announced its Governor's Awards honorees. Yes. Now, every year, a handful of people receive honorary Oscars. Historically, you don't recognize those Oscars as competitive wins.

They're not. They're not competitive wins. But they do still mean that these people get Oscars. Astrosk Oscars, but okay. Two of these people are long time, like, when will they get their Oscars? Why won't the Oscars respect them? You know, we've been waiting a really long time to see one Glenn Close. Yeah.

Who some of the earliest bits on this show were oriented around her Oscar campaigns. Or the wife. We've all not seen the wife, you know. We saw it. I have seen it. Did I read the novel or did I just purchase it and not read it? Couldn't tell you. The only people who have seen the wife are us, other Oscar podcasters, and 22% of the Oscar voting body.

Right. She's been nominated eight times. Yeah. and has no wins. And it's become a bit that she hasn't won. So she will be honored here. Obviously, one of the great screen actors the last 40 years. It's done a lot of great work.

I don't know what you do about this. I guess this is great news for her. It makes it feel a little worse in a way. I completely agree. I just, I think if I were her, I still, I can see her face. When I close my eyes, I can see her face not winning the Oscar for the wife. When they announce Olivia Coleman, yes, one of the great speeches. And, you know, she mostly holds it together, but there's kind of like an, ah, well, there it goes again moment.

It's not quite as bad as to me more with the dog and the French fries after losing for the substance. But it stays with me. So Glenn Close knows, you know, in her heart of hearts, this is not what she's out for. Yeah. It cuts two ways, right? On the one hand, you can be like, well, you'll never compete again. On the other hand, you could pull the Paul Newman or what may be the Tom Cruise this year, where after you get an honorary Oscar, you have a part coming up in a movie and you knock it out of the park.

And then the academy is like, whoops, we give you your honorary too soon. We're ready to honor you in the way that they did Paul Newman. And I think there's a very strong chance that we have six to seven months of Tom Cruise Oscar campaign coming our way. We certainly have campaign. We haven't seen Digger yet. So we don't know whether it will actually. I think regardless of it if the movie is a hit or not, if it's a critical failure, or not, I still think he's doing enough that that's going to be a part of the conversation.

I was reminded or remembered that Glenn Close is in Lebel Inegra, which will also almost certainly be a part of the Oscar conversation for the next six, seven months. I don't think in the running for that. But I think it's useful, you know, she'll be around. You know, I wondered if there was a little bit of synergy in this event. Probably not a... Presented in partnership with Rolex, which is included. on every single press release, which I was like, okay, okay, Governor's Awards.

I did want to tell you I do want to go to the Governor's Awards as here if you're interested. No, I've started looking for dresses. Okay, great. I've never been, I would really like to go. One of the reasons I would like to go is the next person who's getting an honorary Oscar is Ridley Scott. He's one of our favorite directors, checkered though his filmography may be. What's a ghost dog? What is it?

Dog stars. Dog stars. Yes, dog stars. With a very encouraging August 28th release date. You know what? I'll be back for vacation. So I appreciate it. You will.

We'll be potting about that movie. It's a Jacob Allorty film. Sure, he's very tall. He is. So he's got a new movie coming out. I don't think it's going to be contending for Best Picture this year, but he has three Best Director nominations for Thelman Louise Gladiator and Black Hawk Down. Fascinating to think that he was not nominated for Alien or Blade Runner or any number of the, you know,

majestic classics that he has created over the years. Also had a Best Picture nomination for The Martian, but did not get nominated for Best Director for the Martian. He's historically been a very old. overlooked icon of film directing. And he's a huge, a massive part of the industry. He is among the most prolific filmmakers. He also presides over a huge production company

with Scott Free, that he started with his brother, Tony. He's like one of the dons of commercial directing, and he's gotten into television. Like, he's a huge, huge, huge, huge Hollywood figure. And I think among cinefiles is beloved. Yeah. But he's never quite cracked this...

realm in any meaningful way. Well, Gladysater won best picture. It did. But he didn't, but still. Yeah. And that was, was that Ang Lee won for Best Director that year? No, who won for Best Director in 2000? 2000, Best Director Oscar.

Google, Google. Oh, do you? No. It would be the 2001 Academy Awards. We've got to figure this out as a society. I don't know why my brain is blinking. Soderberg for traffic. Yeah, because he had the, he had the, he had,

had the double noms. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I wouldn't take that one away from him. To me, it's Alien and Blade Runner are the movies where he should have been. He should have won. There's an interesting case for Thelman Louise as well, as one of his great directorial achievements. Which was used, an image from Thelm Louise was used as the poster for Cannes. That's right. That's right. This reminded me that Harrison Ford also doesn't have an Oscar and doesn't have an honorary Oscar. And I wonder whether the SAG Awards kind of clipped him out of an honorary Oscar for at least two to three years. So what if he dies with No Oscar? Oh, let's allow him hope death upon Harrison. He seems hailing hardy to me. He's doing great, but listen,

we gotta, you know, accept mortality. Would you go back in time and give him one for Red Hulk? I have... That movie was really bad. That was really bad. Those cherry blossoms, that scene where he's just... That was tough. That was the nadir of the

of the entire MCUs experience. A couple of other honorary honorary Oscar receivers. One is Floyd Norman, who, a hallowed animator who worked on Disney films in the 60s and 70s

and whose credits are on Sword and the Stone, Mary Poppins, the Jungle Book, Robin Hood, a lot of movies that... Hot Fox! He was a part of the Hot Fox. So I actually went to go see the Jungle Book with my daughter at Vidiot's last year, and Floyd was there.

And he spoke, he was interviewed by Amanda, the programmer, at Vidyitz, and they had an amazing conversation, fascinating conversation. Floyd talked a lot about working directly with Walt and getting involved at a higher level. He sort of was like bumped up on the jungle book to more of a kind of supervising role as an animator. And, you know, Floyd is one of the very few African-American animators

from that period in time and history. And those movies, we were just joking about the Hot Fox and Robin Hood. And that Sword in the Stone, Jungle Book, Robin Hood, that stretch of films. Yeah. I think to millennials is a very big, I don't know, I don't quite know why, but a lot of those movies really imprinted on us. And maybe they were shown on television more when we were growing up or something. But they're not the most iconic Disney animated classics from the 40s and 50s. They're in that second tier.

But I love them. Those are ones I've seen among the most movies. I mean, I wonder whether it was just that the VHS releases coincided with one. Because we rented Jungle Book. We went on vacation with my cousins. And I think we just kept re-renting it from the local video store and just did Jungle Book for a month straight. So, you know, maybe just timeline and what was available to us. I think that's a good theory.

That sounds right. The first film he worked on was Sleeping Beauty, which many people think is the most gorgeously animated of all the Disney classics. So that's very cool that he's being honored. And then the Irving Thalberg Award is going to Christine Vichshed. Sean and Pamela Kaufler, who are longtime producers and have worked with a huge number of people over the years with a real focus on LGBTQ filmmakers. Killer Films is their production company. They're still very active. They're still making – I will not be surprised if they rack up a Best Picture nomination in the next 10 years, given, like, they were all over Sundance this year.

But they've worked on Hedwig and the Angry Inch, one-hour photo. The company, Notorious Betty Page, they produced May December. materialists they produce. They're great producers and really well known. But this actually felt, I don't actually don't know how old they are, but I was like,

this actually feels a little premature just because they're still in their heyday. It's fine. Give people awards that don't totally count but are also very nice. The Thalberg is slightly different. It is. And so I think it's cool

and recognize people while they're still making stuff. I agree. And they don't give the Fulberg every year too. So that was an interesting choice. So four great people, hopefully we can see them be honored this fall by the Academy. And what are your thoughts on putting that part of the ceremony back on the show, on the TV show?

Because now it's something that happens in the fall and they don't air any of that. Right. They used to give away those awards on the telecast. I think you could probably do a shorter, more produced version on the show. You know, and the way they do for in memoriams and other sorts of, like it could be a segment. No problem. I would have liked it. I mean, you know, there's a very memorable Altman one where he was.

received one and gave a great speech and, you know, Poitier got one like this. I think Lumet got one like this. Like a lot of, to me, the one thing I like about putting it on the telecast is that component of film history where young people watching it, even if it's a little bit boring, they hear a name and the name sticks to their brain and then they think, like, well, what did that person do? And what should I go back and look at it? And we're entering a period where, like, people like Christine Vashon are receiving honorary Oscars were like, their film history is fairly recent. You know, she was producing Todd Haynes movies, you know, from 25 years ago that people will want to check out

and that like isn't century old film history, it's relatively recent and it can be a portal. So I do like the idea of potentially spotlighting it more on the main telecast. But I do think also, you know, we're entering a territory in a few years where we'll all be on YouTube.

And so I think it's honestly better to do, if not to do a separate ceremony or at least to have the speech in full, you know, on YouTube. And you kind of get people to check it out and you peak their interest, but that requires holding their interest for the entirety of a ceremony

that's now just being live streamed. So I don't know how I feel that the Oscars becoming like just a bunch of clips that everyone checks out, you know, in two years. It does seem like that's where we'll go. Yeah. You know, we're still available to program the Oscars channel on YouTube TV.

But this would be a great programming on the Oscars channel. It's just how do you get people to turn it on in the first place. It's challenging because it's more expensive to try to make this a TV show, but it also could mean more revenue. Yeah. So we'll see.

Actually, what happens for our purposes in terms of how the Oscars communicates? And if it becomes a little bit more of like, not just the six-month campaign, but a six-month external programming venture, you know, where there's just like a lot of stuff coming out about this. And whether or not that hurts the telecast itself is probably worth exploring. I mean, six months is too long because that's like half the year. and then it doesn't feel special anymore, and it's not an event. But, you know, if you kick it off with the governor's awards and then, you know, movies, events,

and you do early February? Is that what we've decided? Is the right time? The second week. You want the second week. After the Super Bowl. After the Super Bowl. That's what I think is the best time.

I hope they go to that. I would settle for the third, but I think the third is historically NBA All-Star game. Okay. I don't, I mean, no one really cares about that except for the dunk contest, which they make fun of, right? I wouldn't say I'm enjoying it. The only NBA All-Star game, it's more like it's just a center of gravity thing with programming. Okay. Well, that's fine.

But you know what? On YouTube, that won't matter. We won't have to worry about whether ABC is airing anything. Anyway, what we're saying here is three months, two and a half to three months. I want Oscar stuff every day. But during that time or you want it all of it, you want it 365. I'm not well. I'm not well.

I want it all the time. I love it. I just don't think that's realistic in terms of holding people's attention. I agree with you. And it won't feel special. And you want the Oscars to feel special. You do. But when you go into this.

kind of curated environment of you have to go out and find it or it's algorithmically served to you rather than eventized, it kind of changes things a little bit. And there is obviously consumptive patterns that are more about like reaching the sickos rather than trying to reach everyone, which is what's something you've said over the years too. I mean, that's true. But, you know, last night, as we learned, there are people who have watched every single next game and then that when there is a live event and everyone is together focused on the moment. You kind of live events were the only thing we have left to actually grab people, which is a good segue. PTA won best picture.

Yeah. Two Spielberg podcasts. Yeah. Nicks up three one in the NBA finals. Uh-huh. My back no longer hurts. Can I tell you something actually that I forgot to tell you? But so you and I are both Leo's.

We are. About a week apart, I think, is when we were born. A week apart. Two years apart. so the planets were aligned slightly differently. But for our purposes, this is your moon. I forget. This is a Leo podcast.

I have another good friend who's a Leo who is telling me at the beginning of the year that 2026 is just going to be our year. That like the planets start, like everything is just aligning where it is like it is Leo energy. I don't, I didn't do any further reading. What I know is what my friend Lauren screenshot it and just like texted to me. me for about a week from various unverified Instagram accounts. But you've just reminded me. Maybe it's Leo season. Gotta be honest, I'm waiting for my Leo year to kick off. But I did go to Cannes. You're having a great year. That is true. That's true. You're in the midst of one of the great

glowups. Thank you so much. Can PTA, PTA movie, my favorite of the year winning. That was good from an Oscar sense. What else? Kiki getting cast in Minecraft too. Huge. You know, her dreams coming true are my dreams coming true. Is Kirsten also a Leo? Let's look at this really quickly. Kirsten Dundt's birthday. I should know this. Kirsten, no, April 30th, 1982. I'm sorry that I didn't know your birthday, Kirsten. What's up? Yeah, it's positive, you know? I might go to the Chanel boutique when I'm in Venice, so. You're having a great year. Because I think, because they might have some of the stuff in stock. Do you know there's a shortage? Sports surgery, notwithstanding your family. Your family is healthy, right? Everyone's doing well.

This is when I start to get a little bit nervous. Yeah, totally. Same. A little bit too much going well right now, but let's talk about Disclosure Day. I ruined your elegant segue. Yeah. This is, of course, the new film from Steven Spielberg. It's written by David Kep. Notably, the story is by Steven Spielberg. Steven Spielberg has talked about writing the entirety of this 50-page treatment on his iPad and sharing it with his producer. and eventually sharing it with David Kep. This is his... Did he say whether he has an attached keyboard?

He did not... Well, not as far as I know. Okay. We're not in contact like that, so I can't confirm. Well, I know, but, you know, I'm just trying to... When I'm visualizing it. These are the questions that no one else thinks to ask. I know.

When I'm writing, I need a keyboard. Same. I cannot type on a screen. 1000%. And I know there are people with their notes app, but iPad seems a little do-do-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-. Yeah, I can work on a notes app for sure, but anything longer than one paragraph, give me a keyboard.

Okay. Kemp uses a keyboard. This is his fifth script for Spielberg. Their previous collaborations are an interesting collection of movies. Jurassic Park, the Lost World Jurassic Park, War of the Worlds, and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. This movie stars Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. The Scores by John Williams, this is their 30th collaboration. We will speak about the score in this conversation.

Director of Photography, a familiar name, Janush Kaminsky. They've been working together since Schindler's List. production designer Adam Stockhausen, Oscar winner, costume designer Paul Tazwell, Oscar winner. Steven Spielberg has the elite department heads on this film. The story is as follows, as a massive government conspiracy unravels, a targeted whistleblower races against time to bring about the extraordinary event that will change human history forever, the day of ultimate alien disclosure. Now, before we talk about the movie, I wanted to foreground this conversation in what you. you think, and what I think, but I'm interested in what you think about UAPs and the possibility

of your own belief. Do you think that there is a life not just beyond our planet, but that it may have even come to this planet? Yes. Yes. So both questions. Yes, for sure. But I also Googled what UAP stands for yesterday.

So I'm not paying attention to this because, frankly, and, you know, I feel this way about fantasy novels and other stuff too. Like, I'm just, we've got too much going on here. You know, we've got too many other problems and things that I'm concerned about. I just, like, I can't take it on. That's such a tension of the film. It is. It is a huge, and I think the film successfully makes an argument for why I should care about it

in a way that really did connect with me. But for the most part, I'm just not thinking about it. Like, I, again, like, you've got my family stuff. We just had surgery, but also the world. This world is really broken, right? And so that is where my energy is going. So I didn't know that we had upgraded UFOs to UAP, which is unidentified. UAP stands for it.

I don't remember. Aerial phenomenon. Yes. Okay. So that said, this is just a simple mathematical problem for me. Like, of course that Earth is not the only living thing in the world. And I then watched a documentary yesterday. I also read the news from time to time, but I did watch a documentary yesterday, The Age of Disclosure.

Yeah, I watched it as well. On the recommendation of my friend Ashley. Yeah, I've seen this. Did you find that documentary credible? I thought it was military propaganda. Okay. But, well, military or like ex-military propaganda. And so much of it is about the threat that these UAP posed to American national security, which I was a little bit like relaxed.

Okay, a lot like, and it's ex-military individuals and government officials. But also, you know, Marco Rubio is in the film. Well, sure, but, you know, it's Marco Rubio. So there's, you know, there's a hawkish element to all of it that I was kind of rolling my eyes at. But it does also bring together the basic reported information in such a way where I'm like, yeah, okay. So there, they have seen things that we do not know about. I definitely, I have a two-tracked mind about this. Yeah.

I think I align with you that as a math. mathematical equation. To me, it's kind of undeniable that if you think about galaxies beyond galaxies, there is life outside of what we understand. I'm fascinated by the potentiality of something having come to this planet and even interacted with human beings. I'm a little bit more inherently skeptical of that truth. And that I think how you feel about that may actually impact your relationship and experience

with this movie. Yes. Well, I think that I'm not that dissimilar from you because, you know, I watched this and then it is using testimonials from people who have really bought into this stuff and is really framed around two advocates or other noun that you want to use to describe them. But use this reporting from the New York Times and CNN and many scientists. and I just, there's enough evidence out there that I was like, okay, well, I can at least believe some of this. I don't think it really matters yet in any way. To us, like to our lives? Well, yeah, because, because, and some of it, some of it is a reaction to the age of disclosures very aggressive military industrial complex bent.

and Marco Rubio being like, this is a national security threat, which if it's, nothing's happened. If it's been 80 years, as you're saying, like we're doing fine. It's sort of like my house

and earthquake insurance, which is just like, well, it's been there for a while. But... You've got to be careful. You put out in the world. I'm just kidding.

We're having a good month. No, it's too. Also, I do. We do have earthquake insurance. But, but this... For the listeners in the other 49 states,

that's very important in California. Yeah. To have earthquake insurance. So I don't really believe that it's some sort of international or national conspiracy theory or threat. And thus, I'm kind of like, that seems cool. But I don't know if I feel like the secrets of the universe are being kept from me. Sure. One of the ideas that I believe is proffered in the film is it's possible that the visitations that have been experienced.

experienced are actually from future humanity that has created technology to travel back in time to observe maybe the problems that have been set, beset upon this planet, which is just an idea I hadn't considered. But an idea like that enters firmly into the realm of science fiction speculation. Yeah. And I'm a person who's raised on science fiction speculation. I love stories like this. I've always loved books like this.

I've read a lot of novels that cover this territory. a lot of my film fascination is around films like this. I am raised on Spielberg. A lot of this, you know, Spielberg experience I've been having over the last couple of months is oriented in, seeing close encounters, seeing ET, you know, being obsessed with Minority Report and War. The world's in the 2000s, like just loving his approach to that storytelling. And then also working backwards a lot and looking at 70s conspiracy science fiction, which there's lots and lots of it. And then educating yourself on 50s and 40s stuff that dovetails with H.G. Wells and a lot of other writers. And so all of this stuff is mostly unhopeful.

It's mostly about the panic that would be induced in our society if, in fact, there was like an incursion of Martian life or some other planet that we don't know about. Right. And our inability to really get our arms around the fact that not only we're not alone, but we're not in control. And Spielberg differentiated himself as a voice in filmmaking by being not just unafraid of the unknown, but by embracing it and by telling stories that we're about. how it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. It wasn't necessarily a dangerous thing. Right. But there could be hope in life beyond our own.

And I think that that has actually dramatically impacted, like a generation, maybe multiple generations of film fans who see these kinds of stories differently. Now, he has shifted in the 2000s to a much darker perspective on these things. You know, in addition to War of the World's Minority Report, Ready Player 1, like, there's a lot of movies that are about, like, things are probably not going to turn out so well as he's gotten older. He's become a little bit more embittered by,

what the world has turned into. But this movie, and I bring all that up to say, this movie is a massive philosophical reckoning for him. It's like him trying to, as accurately as possible, express what he thinks the potential reality of this happening could mean for us as a people. People are going to like or dislike the movie.

Yeah. The movie is not without flaw. We can talk through some of the struggles I think the film has from a script perspective. But if you are interested in what the Steven Spielberg project about these kinds of stories has been, this is a fascinating, wildly absorbing confrontation

with what he's been trying to put on screen for 45 years. Yes. Yes. Listen, I think this is like a thrilling, completely absorbing Stephen Spielberg movie about, aliens and whether they're real or not with movie stars and set pieces. And I sat there making the Spielberg face up at the screen because what he can do in terms

of making a sci-fi blockbuster is unparalleled. And he's the greatest to do it. And it's really fun. This movie is cookey. This movie is cookie. And that's not bad. And I don't say that to be dismissive, but it is way more literal than I expected. and really, really, really invested in the actuality of this in a way I wasn't prepared for.

And there's something about all most other Spielberg movies, the trade barks, Spielberg movies, even the alien movies, but not, like the alien movies, but not just the alien movies, like Jurassic Park and Jaws and everything, where you, the way they're structured, you're brought along on the belief. Mm-hmm. And you, like, become part of the hero's journey. and this one I stayed at a slight remove it. And I couldn't figure out why. And I think there are some structural reasons and even like who is the protagonist and what answer this movie is trying to actually get it are part of the reason of that. But I think I say that it's a little out there because I don't, it didn't bring me fully

enough along or I didn't connect enough to that very involved topic, like subject matter, that it's like really going after. No, you make a really good point about being so literal. One of the things that's really interesting about all of his other science fiction films is that you can read them very comfortably metaphorically. Yeah. You know, that close encounters is about a man without purpose looking for something and that that maps neatly onto Spielberg at a certain stage of his life and maybe not having a full

understanding of the family unit, not having had children being the child of divorce. You can look at ET is about a kind of loneliness as a young person and like looking for connection and not feeling a part of something until something comes into your life that changes everything. You can look at War of the Worlds very comfortably as a post 9-11 film. He talked about this on the 2001 pod about the idea of this foreign invader destroying what we hold sacred. You can look at Minority Report about the way the technology can sometimes invade our and invade our ability to have free will.

The big themes and big metaphors of those movies make them feel grander in a way. And this is actually an older person who's been thinking about something specific, the possibility of aliens being real, and then saying, let's tell a story about if they were. And that's not a metaphor. No.

It's literally like, if this were to happen and it happened this way, what would it mean for humanity? What would it mean for the whole world watching it? That's kind of fascinating to actually at an older period of your life be like, let's just do brass tass. You know, like, let's just get right down to what I've been circling for 50 years. Yeah, exactly. And it does have that end of life, or not even at like last, last third of life, last third of career quality to it.

I've like, okay, I've tried this all this different ways. I've accumulated all this information. But like, now here's what I really think and here's what it really is. and what are we going to do about it? Yeah. I think one of the ways in which the movie works really well is that it's like a pure conspiracy thriller. It's not an exploratory science fiction movie.

It's basically a chase movie. It's a movie about two characters who are separated from one another, who don't know one another, who are on a kind of collision course to come together to reckon with the future of the world, really. To save each other before the third, before the evil person

who is, a combination of every single evil, like, tech slash, like, law enforcement villain in every Spielberg movie. I wrote down, this is like Alex Karp from Palantir meets Jeff Bezos, you know, that there's like some sort of military industrial complex quality, but also this kind of privatized control quality. Sure, but there, but like there is some minority report, the Max von Siddlow character, there is, like all of his, his minions are straight. out of ET. Yes. So you kind of, you see all of the,

exactly, the authority figure and the people who are not paying attention. They come up a lot. Yes, he's riffing on some of the tropes that he has explored many times. But to me,

the movies that it reminded me of were not the science fiction movies. It was dual and Sugarland Express and Jaws. Movies that are about like being on the go where you're in a fast moving vehicle. You're kind of racing into the unknown, but you're also trying to get away from something at the same time.

It's very 70s in the, in terms of its construction, you know, it's a very three days of the condor where you're like, there's a man alone, he has a piece of information, people are after him, but he knows if he gets to the right place and he delivers that information that all will be revealed. And that isn't kind of an inherently exciting brand of movie watching. But then for him, I'd seen people say this, and I'm fairly well convinced, the Post and the Fableman's feel like two movies that are a huge part of what he is continuing to explore. where it's very much a movie about the media,

very much a movie about what broadcasting information can do, I would say a very old-fashioned movie in that respect. And maybe a bit of an antiquated approach to how that works and maybe what our relationship is to network news. Yes. Which takes up a huge part of the final third of the movie. The movie is in part about a broadcaster, about a weather woman.

Right. Well, I mean, it is literally in this very literal movie broadcast news, but it's about what we see on screens. and what, you know, what we see on a small screen versus what we see on Steven Spielberg's large screen or, you know, outside of a screen in the actual real world. Yeah, I, in a lot of ways, Spielberg is an establishmentarian, you know, like he believes in the Washington Post and its ability to do good. Yeah.

He believes in the possibility of the individual working outside of a system at the same time, and those two ideas are kind of in conflict with this movie. But, you know, It's fascinating that something like this would come along when CBS News and 60 Minutes is collapsing from within itself, you know, and the idea of like those systems and those bodies maybe not mattering as much to, like, I don't watch CBS News. I think it's terrible what's happening there, but I don't feel that I'm losing something that matters to me. Same. And the 60 Minutes of it at all, I know most of those names and completely disagree with what is going on in a basic journalism. and intellectual standards sort of way, but haven't watched it in some time.

Yep. No, this, the movie's totems are a little older, right? There is a generational quality to what's going on here. I mean, there is a 2006 Gwen Stefani needle drop in this movie that's I have been thinking about nonstop and having multiple conversations about. How did that happen you think? I have no idea.

And I put it on this morning, driving. here as fast as I possibly could in order to try to get to the bottom of it? You think it was John Williams who picked it? That would be great. I would love it. If John Williams can do that entire verse at speed, I salute him. So yeah, there

is a little bit of this is not a Gen Z movie. I'm quite curious how younger people will react to it. I think if you're a synephilic Spielberg Allegiant, the movie is very rich. If you're just looking for a plain old blockbuster, it's not going to be satisfying in the way that a war of the worlds is where it's like a big, explosive, massive, world-threatening kind of film. It's a much more

philosophical kind of movie, even though it is a chase movie. And before we go into spoiler territory and talk to the plot and some of those set pieces. Sorry for spoiling Gwen Stefani to all of those people. Huge, huge spoiler. Like I said, I see the movie as a question of how Spielberg sees humanity. that like his particular empathic point of view is if this happened, if we were all made to see collectively that this is true. And at this point, the commercials of the movie are giving it. They're showing you aliens in the commercials of the movie. So it's very clear what the movie is trying to do in a way that is so literal that at times

I think it can feel like, so that is actually what this is. Do you agree with him? Do you feel connected to the idea that this could slow down. everything in the world and bring us all together in a moment of understanding and awe that could wash away what exists beyond that singular moment in time. Right. And there there is a little bit of symbolism, of course, because there is a stand-in for what movies do and what Spielberg does in particular on a screen.

But can something, can anything draw everyone enough to, to stop what they're doing and look and be amazed and also not just be amazed, but feel empathy and feel. And believe. Yes. There's something about the collectivist truth that now feels impossible. Yeah. We're like, no, everybody has their own point of view about things and the way that we consume

information where we're just like, well, they're trying to tell you this is wrong. And we're in a constant battle. The way that it is portrayed in the movie itself feels. feels unrealistic or unachievable and feels like a relic of even 2006 or of a lost time. I agree. I totally agree with you. At the same time, I was thinking as I drove in, like, we all spent last night watching one live event and you spent the last 10 minutes just like being out of your mind. And it's not something that we had a connection to now.

That wasn't global. It might have been national at this point. I think there are more people that know about this specific moment of what was really like wonder and joy, unless you're a lot. Spurs fan. We're 24 hours away from the World Cup. Yeah. The World Cup can do that. There are some things that can still do that. So this, this idea of being gathered together and getting at least a large number of people to look at something and be amazed by something and be amazed by something on a screen is I still think possible. Now, what it is matters and how big it, how much of the world you can get

matters. And I don't know that there is anything that works on the scale that the end of this movie wants. Demands, yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with you. I think there is like a little, it's not anivete. It's like, it's a hopefulness almost. It's like I believe that we as a people can come,

can evolve if we see this all together in a way that like I really wish I could get there, but I'm just too inherently dark a person to believe that we can do that. Now, I also, the, without getting too much of the ending, I think some of the most powerful part of the ending to me is that it of, some things that we have seen and have done absolutely nothing about. So, um, what do you, what do you mean by that? Well, I, like, I don't, like, are we getting any spoilers?

Okay. Well, let's wait. One last thing I want to know before we start going through the, the details is, um, this is the most religiously coded Spielberg movie in some time. I mean, maybe since the color purple, um, just the, the invocation of Christianity, the the fact that one of the characters was a novitiate who left the church, a nun is a key character in the film. There are all of these attempts to replicate the feeling of like God or living in a godless world

and what are we looking for that can fill the gap of that. And that's not a common Spielberg theme. Obviously like the kind of like secular religion of Munich that is a component of his filmography or of Jewish identity in Schindler's list. But specifically faith. Yes. And then what you need to do to affirm faith is a huge component of the movie that also feels a bit like a last third of your life suggestion. And to me, the movie is not like, well, Spielberg is a Christian or something.

It's more like, this is my religion. My religion is the, I'll tell you what I wrote down, that it's, his religion is spectacle and wonder and that he's guided into a spiritual realm by the images he's consumed. which he attempts to replicate images he saw in his head when he was 10 years old in this movie, the images he conjures in his mind, and then the images he projects on the screen. And that it's a real like the moviegoer as receiver of the body and blood. It's like getting communion. That's how he sees this experience. And frankly, as people know who've been listening to me talk about movies forever, like this is how I experience movies.

I experience movies as the communication of faith and excitement. And that for me has replaced a proper faith. It has filled a gap in my life around feeling excited about something, about feeling faithful and hopeful about things, about getting, feeling the possibility of transcendence. Which is this is all very highfalutin, but I do think that it is kind of what is on his mind. Yes. And I think so some of the religious stuff does have like a very specific Christianity, messianic tint to it, which I think is just because they want to borrow some of that story structure. and that works to varying degrees. But I do also, you know, this movie is in some ways about what it is like to be chosen,

what it is to be the gifted one, what it is to see things that other people do not. And then what do you do with that responsibility, which I definitely see, you know, a Spielberg reading in as well. And it's not that dissimilar of your, you know, what is it to? be the director and what is it to understand whether it's about aliens or whether it's about how people experience joy. Only I have this information and only I can put it into the world. Right. And so and then, but I feel compelled to share it with you and say it in this

very specific way and a hopeful way too, honestly. I think it's interesting that he makes it a diad, right? That he makes it these two people who have to come together for that thing to unlock. Well, it's a little bit of close encounters, which, you know, a lot of people have the short hand on this movie has been, you think it's close encounters, but it's not. And it's not really close encounters. But I do think that there is a little bit of like close encounters to what happened

to Barry, you know, and what happens after you've had this moment and you have been chosen, but then you come back and you got to live in the world. Yes. And so, and then, you know, the diet of it where I think in this one, the Richard Dreyfus and the mom character are flipped here. Roy and Jillian are. Gender flipped at least. Roy and Jillian are.

So there is a lot of close encounters in this too. There is. I'm frankly relieved that it's not spoiler alert, a proper sequel to closing characters. There would have been something fun about that and maybe even more satisfying for your mainstream audience to just be like this is Roy's son.

They were touched and that this family is part of a blessed lineage of part alien, part human, with this extraordinary wealth of information that has been granted to them. And there is some similarity in terms of how we see the alien life form. Totally. You know, which has this kind of classical creation, formulation. You know, it looks like an old-school Spielberg alien.

It doesn't look like, it's not a reinvention of those ideas. It's the same way that in the movie, the movie uses the tropes of the potential of alien life coming to Earth. Crop Circles, Area 51, military experimentation, a president having information about this, and then not revealing it, recovered memories of alien encounters, all of these things, which have been in the stew of alien conspiracy and in sci-fi storytelling over the last 75 years. He puts it all in the movie very purposefully to be like, well, yeah, because it's real, which is an amazing choice. And it's kind of, it's a very po-faced choice. Yeah. You know, there's not a grain of cynicism in this movie.

And I find that to be a fascinating choice. I'm not sure how people can feel about that. But he's doing it to kind of affirm our anxieties and to affirm in some ways those 2017 New York Times reports that you're referring to, the age of disclosure, discussion. That is the thing is that you and I have been reaching for, like, larger symbolism and what does this all mean? And what do these images, you know, make us think of and feel? And it is all there. And, you know, I don't think that the faith stuff is unintentional. I don't think the examination of wonder and all that is unintentional.

But I come again to this point of being, I realized towards the end of this movie that this was just about, like, yo, aliens are real. You know? Like, that's it. That's what is he trying to say to me, yo, aliens are real. And it was like, okay. And what would we do with that? Yeah. You know, and what does that mean for us?

Sure. And what should we do about it, I guess? Well, then, so then let's talk about the plot because that raises, I think, one of the critical questions as to whether the dramatic tension will work or not for you. So the movie is about these two people. Margaret Fairchild, who is a television weather reporter for a Kansas City station, and who is a woman who is kind of a bit adrift. She's very motivated to be successful. She has a calling of some kind. It's clear. And she's got this. Layabout musician boyfriend, played by Wyatt Russell, and he's kind of like, you're killing it, babe, like it's all good. And she, something's off. And we see her very early on in the film, not quite feeling settled.

And then there's the other character, the Joshua Connor character, whose name is Dr. Daniel Kellner, and he's a cybersecurity expert for a large security corporation called Wardex. And this is like a big agency that is within the military industrial complex that safeguards evidence about what we learn in the first act of the movie about the existence of aliens and the fact that they have been coming to this planet. This is communicated as soon as Joshua O'Connor speaks to his girlfriend, Jane, about what it is that he's doing. And just for the record, I didn't know this watching the film, Wardex stands for waived

reporting, comma, development, and extraction. Okay. Waved reporting is a term for government-affiliated agents or groups that are not required to submit data, documents, or any kind of accountability reporting to a regulatory agency. Also, the name of my new substack. I'm not sure if you would name your organization Wardex with this level of detail about what it is that they do there. Right? Listen, I...

Can we get a metaphor for this group? In general, I have found that I do not understand the naming and jargon conventions of any sort of tech company. Okay. Benign or techno-fascist. You know? Well, I want to talk a little bit more about them because Margaret and Daniel, they have this special connection. They have this secret history. it's unclear.

They remember something. Something starts happening to them. Well, something's happening, and they know certain things and have instincts, and there are also things that they don't remember. That's right. Yeah.

And their childhood is sort of a black box. If you thought you were going to get through a Spielberg movie without complicated childhood, wrong. And so they don't know what's going on there, but they do know, like, they know, patterns or numbers or where people are or in Margaret, Emily Blent's case's languages and

secrets about people. She can essentially read minds. Yes. She has a kind of linguistic connection to all communication. And he has a kind of computational skill that hits him at a stage of his life and then allows him to become a hacker who was then arrested. And then after he's arrested, he has kind of drawn into Wardex to use his great skills and kind of held against his will to some extent in an effort to better effectively protect the information about aliens, which he then uses to kind of break free. Right.

But neither of them know that until the very end of the movie. What they know is that Daniel knows that he's really good at math and that. and coding and coding and coding and that he can't remember his childhood and that you know certain things just come very easily to him all of a sudden and are increasingly becoming very easy and margaret knows that she wakes up one day and just has a lot of instincts about how to talk people in and out of things yes and she doesn't even realize when she is communing with those other languages and those other communication styles um there's the very famous moment from the trailer where we see her during a lot of broadcasts speak in this clicking alien language. Right. And it turns out that the only person on Earth who can understand that language and hear it understood as English is Daniel. Daniel is in possession of these files.

And he is the one in pursuit of Disclosure Day. He is the one who wants to show the world what Wardex has been protecting, what he has been working for them to do. And he believes that by revealing the truth about alien life on this planet, that everything will change. Now, he doesn't really enunciate beyond that what that means. And so the thing that I want to ask you, before we get into some of the filmmaking and setpiece and exciting stuff in the movie is, do you kind of believe or even, like, can you give yourself over to the central premise that revelation is everything, that the idea of just saying this is real could change the way we see our lives in this world? I'm far too cynical for that. And I was really reminded of talking with my father-in-law about Watergate and then about the Trump administration.

And there was that phase from 2018, I want to say until last year, where there was so much reporting. And every day you'd hear from my father-in-law, we got him. Like, this is the piece of evidence. Like, this is the piece of news. This is the piece of something. that is going to make the difference. And obviously that has not been the case. And I remember asking him in the 70s, you know, as all of the Watergate information was coming out in the Pentagon paper, speaking of the Post,

did you have a sense that this was going to matter and something was going to happen? And he said, yes, absolutely. You know, it was going to take time, but you knew it was going to build to something and it ultimately did in Nixon's resignation. Right. we have not seen any accountability of it. And so to me, this is a little bit of a like a boomerish belief, you know, that if if you can just get the one truth out there, that everyone has to give into it. And I think the most demoralizing part of our last 10, 15 years of life is that that's not the case.

Yeah. I mean, my own very specific politically coded version of that is Bush Gore and feeling like, you know. Which is, you know, 25 years ago. I voted in, you know, and feeling like, oh, wow, no, we won't be having our Watergate or whatever. This isn't going to turn in the direction that you think is adequate. But I think that's really, really well put. And that generationally, we have not lived through a flip like that where it was like, justice be done. Yeah. Actually, the conspiracy can become clarified to us all.

And we can, the truth can be revealed. And we can kind of sleep comfortably knowing that there is the ability to kind of make right and for us all to understand what has transpired here. and if you are not your father-in-law's age, but Steven Spielberg is. Yeah. And so there is this kind of hopeful point of view of this movie that, God, I want to believe in. I really want to believe in.

And I know if, listen, if aliens are real and they've come to this planet and they're shown to us. Yeah. I won't be making a movie podcast anymore. I'll be making an alien podcast like that. I will get obsessed with that and what it means. It's going to be a pretty dramatic thing. if that happens. I just don't know if it's going to do the thing that this movie is hurtling towards for two and a half hours. You're concerned about the big picture? No, no, no. I'm just stuck on.

Again, this is like to Stevens Billboard use a keyboard on his iPad. Okay, so news breaks that aliens are real. Yeah. And we've been talking about them. And you see this probably on your phone, right? News alert. Did you still get news alerts? Like notifications? Good. I don't. I'm glad. That's everyone should turn them off for their mental health. But you get a text message. And, you know, and you're a text message. And Who's the first person who texts me? Chris, obviously. Yeah, obviously. So Chris. And like, you know, I understand just like making a podcast with Chris.

You two just like run off into the, you know, sunset together and make your beautiful alien podcast, which is. Why aren't you a part of this? That's a beautiful look. You don't want to, you don't want to. That's really nice that I'm included. Thank you for inviting me. Well, we don't have to change the name or anything. It's still the big picture.

This is. So, oh, so it's the bigger picture. Beyond our own. But, but no, but seriously, you're like, okay, now, now I got a read up on aliens. You didn't even know that there were shark attacks. No. First of all, that's not true. There was one shark attack that happened, and I wasn't reading the news at that time.

And so you were like, you didn't know. Did you know about the Kit Kat Heist? I don't know what that is. Do you know about the Louvite? See, this is what I'm saying. You don't know about stuff. Yeah, but this one would be different. This is not the Louv heist.

This is fucking aliens are on Earth. So then you throw out all the Blu-Race and you're like, okay, this is what I do now. What's past is prologue? So why are you? But, but like, How much time are you spending a day, like every day, learning about aliens once you know that they're real? What if I just turned it all over to that? You wouldn't actually do it.

Would you really do that? Are you really nervous right now about the future of the show? No, I'm just, I'm like genuinely trying to understand. This is a little bit, like at some point I just don't understand why you and Tracy need to own so many Blu-rays. And I just like, I don't really understand. Why do you need to own so many Blazers? What are we talking about here? Because we do the show every single, twice a week.

It makes you happy. And you need to wear different ones. I need to watch different movies whenever I want. But I'm like genuinely trying to. So this revelation would be so earth shattering, literally, pun intended to you, that you would rededicate your life to just amateur study of aliens. It wouldn't be amateur. I'd become an expert. Because here's what I think would happen to me, honestly.

Okay. I'd be like, wow, that's cool and also messed up. and I would like read some articles. That would be your reaction. That's cool but also, no, wouldn't you? You have your fucking mind blown. What? I know you.

You would not be like, oh, interesting. But so what is the disclosure that's being given out? Okay, so. Let's go back to the movie because it's related, right? Okay. The, the, the, the, this is a consequence that the two characters don't realize when they're being kind of pushed towards not only escaping Wardex, but getting the truth out. And Margaret is really more on a quest to kind of figure.

out what is calling to her and what this thing is. But Daniel's goal is very clear. He's like, I have to get on television and I have to show these files to the world. Yeah. And that's really the movie's engine. And the movie spends more time with Daniel than it does with Margaret in the first half. It also gives his motivation, which is pretty clear, which is like the files and what he has seen that has changed his mind after I think almost 10 years working at Wardex and keeping this information private is that he finds videos of interrogation. interrogations of these alien light forms, which is he sees torture.

Yes. And they're very upsetting. And they are recreating. He shows one of the videos to the Jane character in the first third of the movie. His girlfriend played by Eve Houston. Yes. So you get like a certain amount of disclosure pretty quickly. And he says very plainly, like I saw this and I couldn't keep silent anymore.

And then the way it is filmed is deeply upsetting. And it is like any, you know, real reported torture videos. That's like, yes, exactly. Yeah. But it is very affecting. And so what he is doing is he is not, it's not just about we've been lied to and we deserve the truth, but we need to write a wrong. Right. And that resonated with me more than like hated, you know, that they're aliens.

And that is a theme throughout the rest of the film. That's the flip side of the film's dramatic tension is, do you believe that the actions of a Wardex-style agency, are even logical that actually what's most important is to preserve the veil that there is no life beyond our own. It's too dangerous to say two things. One

that aliens exist and two that there has been an 80 year long cover up. That, you know, in 47 I think is when Area 51 is rumored to have transpired. That for this entire period, this entire history, we've known this very small group of people have known and they've been protecting the world from this truth,

which could shatter the way that government operates. It could shatter the way that faith operates around the world. It would just shift, raise the temperature of humanity in a way that is unsafe. Like, do you believe in that idea? Because that is the core tension of, that's the good versus evil of the movie. That's the, these are the two heroes, and this is the villainous figure. And the villainous figure represents that point of view. That, to let everyone know would drive them crazy?

Yes. would shake up the world order? I don't know if I think so. I'm not sure if I do either. And that was sort of when we were watching Age of Disclosure, the closer it got to, you know, our skies are unsafe and they turned around like nuclear missiles. And I was like, okay, everybody, relax a little bit.

That's why I'm so surprised to hear you say, like, well, as soon as we find out there were aliens, I'm rededicating my life to the research. So then let's go back to where I was going with this, which is that as the story goes on, and these two characters eventually come together. Yeah. It's revealed not just that, you know, alien life is still on Earth,

but we have their tools. Okay. They're the magic ones, the devices. Right. And that if something like that were introduced into our lives, that is something that would really draw my attention. That is something that is much talked about in science fiction is the idea of alien technology coming,

and maybe alien technology has been coming, much as 2001 suggests, thousands of years ago and constantly giving us the ability to update and evolve what humanity can accomplish. There's something undeniably fascinating about that. What could this want...

In the film, the wand is capable of a great many things. Sure. Creating psychic links between people and allowing someone to appear where they are not. It also allows people to become invisible completely. Yeah. But there are things that can happen that absolutely break the expectations of modern life.

Yes, but only certain people are able to use them. All the more interesting. Who are those people? Right. Well, they're the chosen people, which is when it becomes less sci-fi and more religious to me, which is... A lot of sci-fi has characters like that. Which is why I'm not, like, jumping up out of my seat being like, well, I just got to, you know, if you let me know, I'm putting the big picture and getting my, you know, my magic wand. The reason why I would replace movies for me is it's Cambbellian hero myth.

Like to identify people who are the, it's Luke Skywalker. Right. You're the only person that can save the galaxy. That, I love stories, man. That's what I always say. I love stories. Sure. So you would be rededicating yourself as just like a story watcher. You would be.

To a greater understanding of my relationship to it and why I think it matters. That's what I do. That's what I'm trying to do. And so, and the movie is drawing these feelings out of me. And it's one of the reasons why the movie transcends for me. The movie has enough for me to get my arms around. where I'm like, this really has me thinking about what this would mean, which is what the movie is trying to do.

Now, I think 98% of the people who watch this movie will not think about it in the way that we are. I think what they will think is there are some amazing set pieces in this movie. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It is exciting. I transcended in just the actual movie making. That's Josh O'Connor and Emily Blunt hanging off a train. Not really, but it sure looks like they are, and I can't believe they're doing that. and I'm very stressed out and I'm very excited and I'm very moved.

I think there are a lot of like very moving images and the extent to which it plays up that emotional protective vein of the alien life that Josh O'Connor's character is concerned about, like really worked on me. So there is a lot that works on it. It works in it for me. but it's not about like I got to go find the wand or I'm sorry there's one reveal at the end which we'll talk about that I just I was like dog what we'll get there

there's a really funny idea at the very very very beginning of this movie which opens with a professional wrestling match and I will say when the movie started I was like is this the wrong movie I did too like I thought they ran the wrong real I didn't know students feel was even aware of professional wrestling

handful of, I think their AEW performers are wrestling. I don't watch AEW so I can't locate who the wrestlers are, but pretty fairly credibly staged wrestling match. Now, you know, wrestling is all about K-FAPE. Wrestling is all about the story that we're telling that is fake. And we all kind of know it's fake. And there's something kind of funny about we all really know aliens are real, but we're going to pretend like they're not.

Was it wrestling? Was it UFC? It was wrestling. It was pro wrestling. Yeah. And that is the site of, a handoff. Where information is acquired by the Joshua

Connor character. Is he acquiring something or he's giving something? He's acquiring something, right? No, I think it's a handoff. He's wearing the backpack and they're like sit back down and take the backpack off. And that leads to a big confrontation

because the Wardex security crew is there. But they're really dumb. They're very dumb and they're outwitted by Joshua Connor and he and Eve Houston escape. And then that sets the movie off on this course So just constant chase. They're on the road to a safe house. They're constantly looking for places to go.

They're working in conjunction with this character played by Coleman Domingo, who is also a former Wardex employee, who had been a true believer in their mission for a long period of time, and now operates in the film as, I would say, a kind of underwritten character who's sort of like the guide, the expository guide of the story. Yeah. He's the, like, he's the omniscient, like, he's the benevolent person on the shoulder.

And then the Colin Firth character who is, who runs Wardex, his name is Scanlon, is the evil character on the shoulder. No one's ever been named Scanlon. Yeah. And there are, there are twinge moments throughout this movie, both in terms of the people who know everything and who are guiding our characters and the characters themselves. Yes. In the filmmaking on, well, I'll say two things. One, we love Joshua O'Connor in the show. I think his character is also a bit underwritten.

And I think his character carries a heavy burden in the movie because he's not only constantly explaining things, but we don't get to really understand him as a person as much. He's just a vessel for carrying the story. The counterpoint to it is the Margaret character who is a character who is not delivering information and does not know what is going on. And that allows two things.

One, you get more invested in her emotionally because you want to know where she's going and why. and two, it's an amazing platform for Emily Blunt, who is fantastic in this movie. I think this is her best performance. I completely agree. I was sitting there midway through just being like, oh, she's finally going to get nominated for an Oscar and I'm with it, you know?

And I love Emily Blunt, and I think that she's just been in roles with material that doesn't serve her. And she's amazing. And watching it, I wondered how much of it is that the movie is structured to be her movie versus how much is she just running away with it? Interesting. I don't really know. It's hard to say.

You know, this movie's funnier than a lot of Stephen Spielberg movies. Like, there are more actual in-jokes, including the Gwen Stefani needle drop. And I think some of that is just because Emily Blunt is like a very skilled comedic actress and finds it. And so I do think that the movie's meant to go with her. Also, you know, jumping ahead a little bit, it's ultimately revealed that she's been given the like the language and the like the communication skills and he's been giving the math skills. So it's not surprising that the movie then goes with the language and feelings character. I agree.

And it's at its best when it's with her. Yeah. And if this was Rooney Mara or Natalie Portman, I'm not sure if the movie works. No. And it's because she has that ability to play the light comedy of confusion that is so essential to her character. but also, you know, she's a beautiful movie star who is someone who would be incredibly a broadcaster. And you're really with her in this movie.

And every time she was on screen, I was like, this is fucking cooking. Like, this is very entertaining, and I really want to know what's going on with her. And that's an essential part of a sci-fi mystery. You really have to have somebody. They did it. That's a really interesting choice that Spielberg and Cap made

to make O'Connor, for him to just be wholly credulous and communicative about what he's doing the whole way through. Now he gets a moment near the end where he starts becoming confused about their connection and what happened to him in the past

but he's not really exploring that too much. Even when he's explaining to Jane the Houston character like, I can understand what's being said here when he sees the clip of Emily Blunt's character. He's not like shocked. He's just like, this just makes sense to me. Right.

And so I actually felt a bit at a remove from him because he almost, has like an alien quality to him. Yes, 100%. And also, I mean, just structurally in this story, you do ultimately learn more about Margaret. They're trying to get to the bottom of what's going on with her and her childhood. And you learn nothing about him.

So, like, there is just, there's an actual imbalance in what is written. And to your point about him being slightly underdeveloped, you don't get any of the emotional reveal that you get with her character. Yeah, and just based on the marketing and going into the movie, you think it's going to be Joshua O'Connor's movie with a supporting performance by Emily Blunt. And at times it just becomes a full-blown Emily Blunt movie. Which I'm fine with. No, me too.

Like I said, I think it must have been three or four years ago we had a conversation after a movie that she had made where we both said the same thing. We were like, this is one of the great actresses, Dev Wars Prada, Edge of Tomorrow. Like, she's a great star. And she's picked so many lousy movies and kind of been stuck in all this stuff. And it's cool that Spielberg was able to unlock, I think, what's so special about her. Yeah. And part of it is just that the movie just feels a little bit brighter and lighter when she's on screen. But as they race towards each other, it never really slips into like, this is a romance or this is a movie about like a brother and sister.

Like they're connected, but they have their own arcs in a very specific way. The most exciting stuff is usually happening with Joshua Connor's character, though. The most like thrilling chases. the most exclamatory filmmaking. When Spielberg is like, yo, I still have my 102-mile-an-hour fastball. And there's two or three sequences in the movie, one where O'Connor's character is in a safe house, and he is attempting to leave before the Wardex security arrives. Right.

And the camera starts following him out of the house. There's a long extended tracking shot where he's running. running along a fence post, and the camera moves through the fence post and around, and he goes all the way out and around and jumps into a car and drives off, which then leads to an epic chase. And as that scene was happening, I was like, yeah, you turned to me and you were just like, Hey! Like, I was like, Spielberg is the guy, the one. He's the one.

Like, I've just not seen that move before. I've not, I've not felt like inside of a person's experience in a movie in quite that way. Now, it's a very showy move, but it is a move that you kind of need to get excited about O'Connor's character escaping. There's a similar move that is not as action-packed, but is as critical with Blunt's character. Right. She needs to get to work and is late to work. And so after speeding, and there's a funny bit developed over the course of the movie where they are both just absolutely maniacal drivers, like unexplained for no reason. So she's beating. She gets pulled over, reads the trooper's mind, gets out of her ticket. And then it's a tracking shot from the street into the studio and onto the set of her weather station where she has to interact with like six or seven different people.

She speaks in Korean. She inserts herself into a guest who's dealing with World War III. Oh, yeah. So World War III is about to break out in. Yes. In North Korea. Concurrent to this plot, there is a massive world conflict. Right.

Where it looks like North Korea is going to bomb the United States and start World War III. Right. But so she's translating and like translating the nuances of the language that the actual translator can't communicate. She stops to help a friend, like a colleague with a personal work situation that is just mind reading. she's like producing three other segments and and it's like all in one. It's really, and which then leads to that climactic moment that you've seen in the trailer with her doing the clicking. Amazing stuff. It's amazing because it's a fusion of that huge physical production and his style and sense of blocking and where to put the camera plus her performance, which is so great.

And she is literally speaking Korean and Russian in this movie. I don't speak those languages. Right. Seemed very credible. She clearly learned to some extent how to do that in addition to this alien language, which was created for the film, which apparently is actually her clicking. And I guess it was her idea that she was like, I have an affinity for kind of being able to do a clicking sound. All of that stuff works really, really well. There are a few other extraordinary set pieces.

You mentioned the train, which is an idea that Spielberg has been wanting to do since he was a kid. It's traumatized in the Fablemans. And he's shot it on 8mm as a kid. And he wanted to do it in duel. He wanted to do a moment where a truck pushed a train or pushed a car onto the train tracks. And that whole sequence is like, hold your breath, tight, exciting, old school movie making. And then the one other one that I've never seen before that I really enjoyed that was really much more old school sci-fi was The Invisible House, which is the set that is created in the third act of the film for Emily Blunt's character so that she can go back in her memory. memory to what happened to her as a young girl and be reminded of the connection that was made when

aliens in the form of these animals, which we've been seeing in the trailers and been like, why does this look like a Hallmark commercial, where there's a stag and a cardinal and what is the other animal that I'm forgetting, who is a fox, these CGI animals that represent some memory in her mind. And that memory is the aliens have made themselves appear to be these animals. so that they may visit her and gift her with these powers. Right. Power to mind read, the power to understand all languages, all these things that we're seeing throughout the film. They're in this house. They're doing this work.

The dyad is complete. The two memories are fused. We see that there is only one thing that can be done now, which is to show the world the truth. And then Wardek shows up in this constructed home. And Emily Blunt's character uses the device, the magic wand. She holds it in a very pronounced Thanos-esque way. It lights up.

I was thinking of Violet from the Incredibles, but... Oh, that's good, too. Yeah, I like that. And everybody disappears. And Wardex arrives to an empty garage. Right. And it's just old school Spielberg, like, brilliant. How is this happening kind of visual trickery and escape strategies that is like a little bit of Raiders of the Lost Ark, a little bit of AI, a little bit of like you've not quite seen a visual execurial.

like this, that then leads to another chase and the race to get to the news studio. Right. And then I wanted to talk with you just a little bit about the execution of the final act of the movie. Yes. Specifically, like, the final, the visit to the Kansas City station. Mm-hmm. And then once the mission to broadcast is accomplished. So once everything has gone live.

So they, it's, they have hours and hours of footage that, they've copied to a local hard drive. I appreciated the technical mechanics of it and knowing that at some point network would cut and you need to have your own server and X, Y, Z. You know, they thought through it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. And like credible without seeing too complicated.

And so it's live. And then it's live on one station and then it goes national and then it goes to all the other stations. They're carrying it without the bug and then you see it going international. And that everyone all is all at once. And they're cutting from World War III to watching this live footage that is airing unedited. And they have, they've recreated or created, I should say, I guess I don't know. Well, a lot of footage of what seem to be or what are alien life forms interacting with humans and mostly military complexes and more interrogations. And they have a newscaster narrate what she's seeing live and kind of recreate the moment of being a human being watching this.

You know, it's sort of like Kronkite with the JFK assassination or with the moon landing. But in real time, which I thought was really effective. That actress whose name I hope you just Googled. I'm trying to find her name and I can't find it. is wonderful and and it puts you in the position of watching this stuff for the first time and what it would feel like. I thought it was a really, really smart script decision and a great performance where just watching the footage. You know what it reminded me of when there's a presidential election and you're watching a channel

and you spend your night with one voice that is anchoring this experience that feels like it is historical. And I totally agree with how you're describing it. that sticking with this woman, who I'm very sorry that her name escapes me, she might actually be a real newscaster. I think she is, but I'm not familiar with her. But she gives this amazing performance

as we are, you have to believe her to believe that this is how it would play out. Now, I will say, when I was watching the movie, I was like, this is too quick. They've skipped a step here in terms of not just verifying the information, but in our world of deepfakes,

I think most people who saw that, even though there are reams and reams of footage of aliens and all of this stuff that O'Connor's character has brought to the fore we live in a time where people are so skeptical about this stuff that everything just seems fake and I think that

it would have been interesting to show a not complicit perspective on this. Now it would have changed the sort of faithful religious moment of communion. Right. That we all feel that is clearly the point of the movie

but they jump so credibly in the broadcast booth in New York from this Kansas City affiliate to national news to then taking this national NBC exclusive and very quickly allowing it to be a national and then worldwide

non-exclusive with no vetting with no even suggestion that this could be fake in the world this sort of like this just takes over. They say that we ran it they're like we ran some AI program.

Yes, yes. And it checks out or something. It was like one 80-yard tennis. It was like a ground check. I don't know. Maybe that exists. I don't know. But it's a yada-y-a-y-da to get through that particular concern.

I did bump on this. I was just like, I don't know if this would happen this quickly. This seems like a lot. That being said, considering that I'm going to be an alien podcaster soon, I would have been super excited by like in minute three. We're like, there's a lot of footage here. Well, so then you're watching the footage. And I thought the footage that they created was like very upsetting.

and affecting. And, you know, I think using the same alien bodies that we have seen in, it's similar to close encounters and just sort of like a standard like emoji alien face and head. And then, but they're smaller. So they have a childlike quality. And they are being tortured and put in camps and tormented. And they look sad and scared and confused. And it reminded me of, you know, recent.

in the United States and certainly and Guantanamo and all sorts of things. Very upsetting to watch. So I did think that that worked or at least affected me. And I thought the newscaster then narrating it, though I agree with you, was fast forwarded, was emotionally affecting. Then it starts cutting to the rest of the world just watching. And people are looking down at their screens, but you know, you go to airports, you go to public spaces, you see people.

less so watching on large screens, though it does happen somewhat because the implication is that the entire world has just clicked over to this one feed. It has been of an NBA finals quality where it's like people in Times Square are watching on a giant screen, but also people are in their homes.

There's the shot of Elizabeth Marvel and the nunnery. They're all like crowded around the television. I'm like, well, what were they watching before this? Where they were 40 people in the room? I guess they were watching the World War III news together. Which is, I guess so. There needed to be maybe this other cataclysmic event.

that everyone would be crowded around to allow for this moment to happen. Right. And it invokes, you know, we didn't have smartphones for 9-11, but in the sense that at some point during 9-11, if you were not in New York, then you were watching. Go to your TV. So it has that catastrophic, like, scale to it. But the fact that you do have phones kind of makes a different, makes a difference. And the fact that the idea that everyone would just be sitting there next to each other, staring on their phones looking at the same. thing. I don't know. I don't know if I buy that. It's the problem we face every single day. As someone who would be excited by the existence of aliens, I mean, the other thing, too, that you

have to note is that in all of the footage that is shown that is created of the alien interactions, they're never in a position of aggression. There's never a time where they are presenting a threat in any of the footage. We don't actually know they have the technology to come to this planet. They have the technology to create a magic wand that can allow you to disappear, to create a psychic link with a person in another city or in another, you know, another world. But they're not violent. And that this goes back to an old Spielberg idea

that Roy getting on the ship is safe. And it's actually salvation to go be with these other, this other species, this other, you know, this other band of existence that we don't totally understand because it's not going to attack you. It's not going to hurt you. There's nothing to fear. And then the final moments of the movie.

sure in which the alien is rolled out for the world to see as you noted on a segue it's a really large all the animals all the animals all the aliens who are featured in the disclosure footage or small and that you kind of get a sense of scale and then this is the largest alien about you've ever seen it's really old they've aged the alien yes they've put the alien on it's almost as if like the older you get you just like keep growing bigger and bigger that aliens don't stop growing. It's like one part the Hannibal Lecter gurney, like the standing gurney. But it's basically a segue.

And Coleman Domingo has somehow made it to the news station along with Colin First. They have some unspoken resolution. Again, these are not the most well-flash-out characters. No. And they say, and like, and Colin First character, Scanlon remembers his wife or something. And so then he, so he has a moment of emotional resonance. And it's like, fine, release the alien. and Coleman says like, okay, bring her out.

And it's like, it's honestly like they're rolling out a prize on the prices, right? You know, but instead they roll out this giant, giant, real, real alien. And I was just like, okay, that's a really large real alien. And like a sculpture, you know, it's like, it's practical. It's not as, oh, you thought it was CGI. Or maybe it's a combination of both. I think it's, I think there's CGI. Well, because then, John.

Josh O'Connor and Emily Blunt, Margaret and Daniel, like, go over to greet the alien. And they're just like, I know you. And so there's some sort of like Holy Trinity thing going on here. Father, son, Holy Spirit. And they or Father, Son, Holy Alien. And they have a moment of emotion and love and recognition. And then Emily Blunt finally puts on a blazer, thank God, before she does her transmission. I liked her sweater.

I liked it, but not what I would choose. For an international... Sweeter guy, blazer girl. Listen, it's just... And there's also a funny moment where the makeup person says, would you like some makeup? And she's like, yes. And then they turn on a spotlight.

She's so great in this movie. Spotlight just for her. But I thought the blazer was the right choice for the international disclosure transmission. And as the really old alien Jeep Grand Cherokee, it looks on. She just turns to the camera and says, listen, the end.

I really like that last, I like her to the camera and the last shot. I thought that was really cool. I was still bumping a little bit on the giant alien. Because that was when I was like, oh, you just really are putting a real alien in this. Well, I think it's very purposeful, I believe, which is that it's the movie saying, you've seen all this footage. Maybe you still don't believe. This is the last step toward belief.

Here he is. or she is. Yeah. We don't know. Could be a she. Maybe that's not how they think of it. We don't know. Could be a gender-free race.

I also really like the ending. The ending does the thing that is just like, okay, we're done. You know, you've got to be like, wait, what? And then now, where do I go with this? And like, how do I feel? And, you know, at the screen that we went to, it felt like there were a lot of people who we know in the media that were at this first screening that we saw. and I would say half of them were like, wow, and half of them were like, I don't know about this.

Yeah. And that's interesting, and I do think that that will be roughly the reaction to this movie. And I was like, that was a real alien. And that's what they wanted the world to think as well. Okay, listen, if you rolled in that alien right now. Yeah, no, that would be a pod. Then I quit and I will start investigating. No need to quit.

No, we'll just pivot the show. The alien will be my co-host. It seems like a nice alien. Don't leave me behind. New third chair race. Seriously. why Tracy and Chris watch your backs Um

That's so big the alien It was very big It was tall It was tall It was aged It was Whembeesque It was Wembeesque Oh you still got it

Steven Spielberg Um yeah I really enjoyed this movie I think it's uh you nailed it at the top of the conversation There's not there's no metaphor here It is literally what if this happened And

it's fascinating because the movie when it was first rolling out in the marketing there was a lot of criticism like, what is this about? Why aren't they telling us anything? Is this a sequel to something? And then we saw the final trailer in April and I was like, okay. So this is like

is what we think it is. And then they started sharing that widely. And I don't know if that was because they were nervous about how the movie might perform or if it was like, well, the plan was always to kind of slowly reveal that this was in fact an alien film from Steven Spielberg. But it gives away quite a bit.

And you kind of go in and you have to... Having seen... Now having seen the full film, I was sort of galled by how much of footage from the final... The only thing they do not show you is the really big alien. Yeah, that's true. It's true. It doesn't really...

The movie doesn't explain the plot. Yeah, it doesn't really explain what's happening. Yeah. But... And it doesn't give away, I think, just some of the more general thrilling stuff you get from a Spielberg Chase movie. But a lot of it is already out there, which is interesting. I really liked it.

I mean, no surprise. very low likelihood that I wasn't going to like it. I had a fantastic time. I really liked it. And I also, I've only seen it the ones. I would like to see it again. I would too. I wish we had for a second time. Although we did a good job here. I think of recreating a lot of this. Well, that's because there's a lot to work with. And there is a lot that stays in your mind. Yeah. I think it is. That's it. Cooky isn't bad. Kooky means it's interesting. And I am different. And yes. And it's different, but still in conversation with all of his other work. And I'm very interested to watch it a few more times with the understanding of like,

this is like, you know, you're a late career thing. Yes. And you're making a, you're dealing with your other work. You're trying to say some things. You're trying to get some things off of your chest. I think it's a rich text. I fully agree. And also really fun.

And also large alien on the segue. It's a little goofy. It's a little goofy. There's no doubt about it. I mean, there's something a little goofy about believing in aliens. I think it was more like just keeping it warm. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like the tinfoil that they give you up to. you run a marathon. That's what I think it was. That is what I think it was. They don't have clothes, I guess. They don't wear clothes these aliens? Why don't aliens wear clothes? Because they are not as uncomfortable with their bodies as we are. Yeah. Interesting. And also maybe their atmosphere doesn't like great on the skin as much. I mean, you know, you, they probably don't have to wear SBF either. You know, you weren't built for this life, but maybe aliens were built for their life. Are you daring me to do a naked podcast? Are you daring me to do a naked podcast? I'm really asking you to never do that. I will do it. I will do it. I will. do it. I'll do it. I'll raise funds. I will absolutely do it for charity.

Don't look at me so intensely when you say that. There's no one who wants that. You'd be surprised. Actually, I'm not, but I mean, we should just really, we should make a movie about the people who want that. That would be fascinating. Wheel them out on Segways. I'd like to say the name John Williams again. I think this is some of his best work in a long time. I think part of the reason why the movie feels so propulsive and exciting is because you can feel him getting locked in. He doesn't really have any bad scores where you're like, oh, he missed on that one. But, you know, I was talking to a filmmaker last week, and they were, they described him as the last

melodist composer. Yeah. And I thought that was a great way of framing him. You know, a lot of the contemporary composers, a lot of whom I really like are very percussive figures. They're really about, and that's a response to kind of what contemporary popular music has been in roughly the last 40 years, where it is very beat-driven. It is meant to thrust you into.

this kind of heartbeat feeling. Now, he does that with melody. That's what the Jaws score is. He's using a piano to capture that feeling. And he does the same thing in this movie, and he's 94 years old. And that's just amazing. It's amazing that he still can conjure this

and that he and Spielberg have this now 50-year relationship. The great living musician, one of the most important musicians of our life. It's shaping not just film scores, but, and classical music, pop music, pop culture. I mean, my two-year-old or almost two-year-old can sing Star Wars the theme, and then I just start crying. But it is amazing when you think about what he has made has probably traveled further than almost any other cultural artifact of the last 50 years.

That's a really great way of putting it. I think there's something to that. I mean, obviously the two of them in conjunction, you see their impact. impact in sound and vision that like it's major stuff and you know he's won five academy awards for his scores he's among the most celebrated composers certainly of our lifetime um i think he could win again we haven't even seen most of the movies that are going to be competing for oscars but uh and i'm curious what you think in terms of like box office and oscar stuff for this movie because so i just googled box office uh i just google disclosure day tracking because those guys always get it right

Yeah, sure. 65 million worldwide? Worldwide? Yes. Oh, I'll go over that. Okay. And... In America, I won't go over that.

35 million and it's North American start. I'll go over that. Okay. I would guess it's 41, 42. That would be nice. That would be a good outcome for the movie. Some people think can go to 50. I would love that.

Yeah. I think the reviews are going to be mixed. I think a B cinema score is in play because I think some people will feel that some of the stuff is goofy. Some of the people will feel like it's maybe not satisfying that we're not getting like some sort of alien confrontation. Right. Which is the sort of thing you expect. And to our explanation.

You know, there is a lot of what's going on with the Margaret and Daniel characters that just is never, never explained at all. And that may be frustrating. I think more specifically, the way to think about the movie is this is a movie about us. It's not a movie about them. It's not a movie about aliens. Yeah.

It's a movie about humanity. And again, that is a very kind of aged perspective. You know, looking internally in the latter stages of your life. Well, you know, close encounters, E.T. All the other movies, you know, end on a looking outward, what's the, you know, hope and wonder. And what is possibility. And this is Emily Blunt looking down a barrel at you. And it is very much about what's here.

So. Absolutely right. Awards. It's been well reviewed, not ecstatically reviewed, but very well reviewed. And I think if you're like one of the Spielberg. Allegiance, you're going to give this movie a good review because you've been spending a lot of time thinking about the source texts and what it is he's responding to. And we love this one. An older filmmaker is like, I'm reengaging with all the stuff that made me a legend in the first place. I mean, I think back to at the DGA's where every single person who was on stage somehow managed to reference and like say hello to Steven Spielberg and what Spielberg meant to them. And many of them just saying like, I can't believe I'm on stage in front of Steven Spielberg. So it's it's not. Not news to anyone who listened to this podcast, but he is God-tier.

And loved in the industry. So that helps. Like, we're not the only people starting the Emily Blunt campaign, but I will start it right now here today. She will be nominated. And I would love to see her win. You know, it's early in performances like this that are funny and genre don't normally win, at least an actress. And I think she's actress.

She's not supporting no matter what the marketing will try to. Listen, if they can finagle supporting, then shout out to them. If it shakes out where that's a category where she can win, they might do that. I mean, and I salute it because I don't believe in honorary Oscars and I don't believe in category fraud. Okay? Just like, go get the competitive win. But she deserves it. She's amazing.

She is really terrific. I think there's, it really depends on how the second half of the year shakes out. It's always hard to make predictions like this. But, you know, I said it with sinners last year. After the first week, I was like, this movie's going to get 10 Oscar nominations, no question. It feels like five is in the office. for this movie for sure because you do have these legendary below the line people

who've done great work. You know, for like Paul Tazwell, this is not the showiest costuming performance. Well, but he came through with that blazer when he needed to. He sure did. Appreciate it that. Good note. O'Connor, this is not his Tom Hanks moment. You know, it's not a bad performance by any means,

but I think some of it is a function of the character and some of it is a function of, I think, the way that his engagements with Eve Houston's character are written where that's some of the weakest stuff in the movie to me. And I wasn't as with the movie when they're having fights about, like, you didn't tell me you were a novitiate? Yeah, she's like, you didn't tell me that you were,

you know, you did this for Wardex. Like, there's a little bit of like raggedy David Kep screenwriting stuff going on. And then she also gets a pretty amazing one-off scene with Colin Firth that we didn't mention. Yes, the psychic link. Yeah, which was very cool. But he is, his character is being used to set up everybody else and everything else. What did you think of Firth?

Because you're obviously, you know, long-time fan. Remember when Tim Simons described said on this podcast, possibly in this very chair, I saw the man from Kings Beach at the Claremont Lounge. Yes. I thought he was good. Sure. Good use of him. He's playing in old school Spielberg. Yeah.

And, you know, I thought Coleman Domingo was well cast as the warmth and the like we need you to come to this safe place. Yeah. As close as you can get to a narrator too. Yeah. Neither of those characters make any real sense. but I agree. But I like those actors. I agree.

In the same way that close encounters and ET are kind of fantasias. You kind of have to get on board with the kind of fantasia quality of this movie. If you want to read it literally, even though at times it's asking you to read it literally. Yeah. But if you read it literally,

I think you will come away more frustrated than amazed or awed by what is possible with it. Fascinated to see how it works out. Fascinated to see what people make of it. And I agree with you. I look forward to seeing it again. I would have liked to have seen it a second time before this, but you're right that it's idiosyncrasies are what allowed me to very comfortably sit down two weeks after seeing it and be like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. Well, I've just been thinking about it.

Yeah. Right? And I've been thinking about specific parts of it. I've been trying to parcel out what I think it thinks it's mean. It means. What does it mean to me? What does it mean to Spielberg? Like, I have been wrestling with it in a good way, not because I didn't have a great time.

Like, I had just a thrill ride of a time. And then I keep thinking about it, which to me. is only Spielberg can do. Yeah, it's usually what you want. That's it. I think next week we'll talk more about Spielberg. I'll probably try to see this a second time. Yeah, I got to figure that out.

I looked at my the Spielberg films I've watched since I joined Letterboxed. Okay. And there's only nine I haven't seen a second time or a third time or an eighth time or 12th time since 2020.

Okay. And most of them are at the bottom of my list. Okay. It's the BFG, Warhorse. Tin Tin. Movies that I'm not a huge fan of. But I want to try to knock out as many of them this weekend as I can. Okay. Okay. Here's a... Me, you and Joanna.

Yeah. We did our full ranking some years ago. Yes. We also did top fives. Yes. I don't remember anything. I don't remember what I... And these things change, right? They're living documents. Yeah.

Should we be individually doing top tens? Should we be creating some sort of new system to examine his career? Because this is a movie about his career. I don't want to do Matt Rush. more because then we have to fight about Teddy Roosevelt. And I just, I don't know. I know a lot more about Ike Eisenhower after seeing pressure. So maybe we could bring that into the discussion.

He had a temper. So I've heard. Sure. I'll think about it. We got to figure out a way. I know that things would change dramatically. So for this podcast, after seeing this closure day, I rewatched close encounters. didn't need to watch ET because I haven't memorized.

AI Minority Report and the Post. Interesting. I haven't revisited the Post. And I found that my experiences on some of those changed dramatically. Or I, you know, had a response to them that I didn't remember. Some were exactly the same. So it would be fun to revisit to see kind of how things have changed. Last thought on this.

West Side Story. Fableman's Disclosure Day would like to see how many filmmakers in their 70s have a trio that good. It's going to be a short list. It's going to be a short list because all three of those films feel monumental to what he's trying to communicate as a filmmaker. Yeah. They were getting like more of those. They're just so infrequent. You know, it's like Coppola's made one movie.

Scorsese is obviously there. I mean, I just Googled Scorsese because what? You've got Silence, Irishman. and then... Kills the Flower Moon. Yeah. Now, I don't know if I actually said this to you, but this is kind of his kills of the Flower Moon.

I totally agree. Or it's like, what am I really about? Yes, it's the end. Like, it's the end of current. Listen, Steven Spielberg seems very healthy and kept up with you and put up with your bullshit. So I, like, mad respect to him. I'm not trying to do anything.

But it's just, he's made a lot of movies. It's the back nine. Let's also not forget that... I'm also on my back nine, so it's fine. That's simply just not true. I think you'll get... I think you've got... I'll make it to 90 energy.

Yeah, and just absolutely torment my sons. Well, hopefully they'll be there for you and support you. I know, I hope so, but I just like, I mean... I love you. Imagine, imagine me at 85. I won't have to. I'll be dead. I...

It's not a mistake that in the year that Stephen Spielberg officially moved to New York City, as he told us on January 1st, 20th. 2016, the New York Knicks were up 3-1 in the NBA finals. So hopefully by the time we come back... I hope this isn't a time capsule. We'll see. Okay. We got a big game on Saturday.

Yeah. Hey, thank you to Jack Sanders. Back from Europe here to produce our episode, the producer of the show. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support. Thanks to Sarah and Jamie for holding us down over those episodes while Jack was gone. Next week, we're going to do something with our Spielberg favorites. I don't know what it is yet, but we'll do something interesting.

And we'll look back on what's transpired with the Disclosure Day in the world over the weekend. And possibly a next update. Well, and yeah, I'll protect my heart, but remain positive. We'll see you next week.