The Big Picture - Diving Deep Into ‘Avatar: The Way of Water’ and ‘Triangle of Sadness’

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

Sean and Amanda are joined by Van Lathan to plumb the depths of two nautically inclined films that happen to be nominated for Best Picture at next month’s ceremony, 'Avatar: The Way of Water' and 'Triangle of Sadness.’ Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Van Lathan Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Danny Kelly, host of the Ringer Fantasy Football Show, and from now until the draft, we are turning our feed into the Ringer NFL Draft Show to talk all things draft with me, Danny Heifetz, Ben Solak, and Craig Horlbeck. Check us out on Tuesdays and Thursdays and search the Ringer NFL Draft Show. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey.

I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about getting wet. Whoa. We're welcoming back our pal Van Lathan to dig deep into two nautically inclined films that happen to be nominated for Best Picture at next month's ceremony, Avatar, The Way of Water, and Triangle of Sadness. Now, these are two movies that, you know,

we did devote some conversation to, but maybe not enough, especially given the power, the overwhelming box office success of Avatar The Way of Water, and the fact that Triangle of Sadness was the Palme d'Or winner and has gone on to be

one of the most acclaimed movies of the last 12 months. Ban, how are you? I'm great. Happy to have you back. I'm happy to be back. I love being with you guys. That's so kind. We love having you. Can I pull back. I love being with you guys. That's so kind.

We love having you. Can I pull back the curtain for a second, though? Let's do it. So I want you, Van, to know that you've been a part of this a bit. But I also want our listeners to know we're recording this a little in advance. And this is the last podcast in the tale of pre-recording. So the intro that Sean did is representative of where we are in that process and the energy that we're bringing and i just felt that you van should know and that everyone at home

should you know put their seat belts on van bears you bear heavy burden today you know because this is this is a loose conversation about two movies that have been out for a long time but like i said we haven't really spent a lot of time with. But you and I were in the office together a few weeks ago. And we started talking about The Way of Water. Sure. And you were at the bully pulpit. You were like, this is a really important film.

And so it made me think, like, we didn't really get into it as much as I'd like to. It seems like damn near half the population of the world has seen this movie now. So we can definitely dig into the details. But when you were on here for the 93 movie draft, you did indicate you had some more broad Oscar thoughts, Oscar ceremony thoughts. I mean, maybe before we get into these movies, like, what do you, how are you feeling? You're an Oscar winner yourself. Where's your head at?

Yeah, I think having been a part of an Oscar race sort of changes my perception of a lot of the conversation around the awards because there are certain things that I recognize. And when I say that, as pompous as that comes off, what I really mean is that there was work that went into the production of the race to win an Oscar. And that's for Best Live Action Short, which is not one of the marquee awards given that night. But for me and Trayvon and Nick and Jesse and Lawrence and everybody that was involved, and obviously Puff, and everybody that was involved, it was like all hands on deck to get as much, to curry as much favor with the people that we needed to curry favor with, to do as much legwork, to kind of, to get across the finish line. And that took away something that I think a lot of people still put a lot of weight into when it comes about, when it comes to the Academy Awards. It took away fairness. I don't look at the word fair when it comes to this anymore. This is as much a production as the movies are. It just is.

And so when I looked at the landscape of awards, and there's always going to be a conversation around diversity, around inclusion, but I think that conversation for me now comes from a different place. And it comes from like a fear. And this is my fear. My fear is not that the Academy Awards won't be fair. They won't be fair.

They won't. They're like, they're not going to be fair. Like we had to do additional fundraising to support the award season run for the company that we had to hire for all of that stuff, we were like, fuck it, we're going for it. Right.

And so we had to do, we had to raise additional money and it was hella stressful. We, shout out to Kevin Durant and Rich Kleiman and everybody else who helped us and jumped on, but KD had a screening of the movie

for the Brooklyn Nets that ended up on TNT. We did all kinds of different things to screening of the movie for the brooklyn nets that ended up on tnt we did all kinds of different things to make sure the movie got out there i think the fear is that this in some ways has always been the fear the fear is that there is a cultural translation point that caps off movies like maybe The Woman King. And what I mean is like, if you can look at a movie like Avatar The Way of Water and recognize the achievement enough

for it to be nominated for Best Picture, which is well-deserved, what starts to happen is what creatives on this side of it, particularly, I don't want to speak for my sisters, I don't want to speak for women, but I'll speak for Black creatives, is that we start to wonder

that if we make something that is truly, truly great, but grounded culturally, if the Academy even gets it. You know what I mean? And that's the thing that never goes away. And that doesn't really have anything to do with even fair that has to do with these these sort of these these systems and these experiences that you just can't penetrate right if i make the best movie about

south baton rouge louisiana where i'm from ever will they even get it if it's not melodramatic if it's not if it doesn't have universal themes if it's just about the experience of those people will they get it and sometimes they do and then sometimes they don't but every time we feel like there's a movie where they miss it reincarnates the same fear. Now, and I say that because I don't have an expectation that the Oscars will be fair, okay? There are some performances that people didn't even see. This guy's my friend, but I'm still going to say it, like Freddie Gibbs in Down With The King. Like, those are performances that are not going to generate any Oscar buzz but if you talk about people who just like acted their ass off

this year it would be difficult not to talk about that performance but there are dues that you have to pay and stuff like that so what I'm kind of a little sick of is at this particular time from knowing what goes on sort of having the same conversation over and over and over again. It's a vital and interesting point. And I think something that in the earlier days of this show, we spent a little bit more time unpacking when we were trying to maybe hold listeners' hands

a little bit through the mechanics and the financial aspect of campaigns and awards and what the race really means. At a certain point, it becomes hard to get people to care about the machinations of a very small body and their huge biases. This year, though, it is, as usual, front and center. The Andrea Riceboro nomination and Daniela Deadweiler and Viola Davis being left out of the Best Actress race. And then the Woman King just not being recognized at all, despite being a commercial success,

despite Gina Prince-Bythewood being, you know, in the Hollywood firmament now for the last 10, 15 years. It has all kind of come to the surface. But when we talked about Riseborough, Amanda, like we said the same thing. We were basically just like, this stuff has never been fair. If rules were broken in this case, they're kind of always being broken just in subtler or different ways.

And, you know, Van, what you're saying, I think resonates a lot too, which is just there are stories that are going to be told that voters in the Academy are just not going to get or frankly are not going to care about. And that's the most destructive thing. I don't know. Like, how does that strike you? What Van just said? Spot on and timely. And you brought up The Woman King, which is, I think, useful if we're going to talk about Avatar The Way of Water in terms of being a blockbuster success that when you and I saw it, Sean, we were like, wow, movies. And we were like, wow, I hope that shows up at the Oscars. And it didn't for a variety of reasons, including as Sean has pointed out a lot, like,

I don't know whether the campaign itself did what you, Van, just laid out in terms of making the movie available and seeing the right people. And I don't know whether there was money, the right money or effort behind it, but why wasn't there the right money and effort behind the woman King? Why wasn't it identified as something that we should be pushing and that could really become part of this Oscars narrative? I mean, I think we all like know why, because people didn't deem it the right type of oscar movie or maybe they did and they just got it wrong i don't know and the and the woman king is kind of like a sore thumb in this because that movie checks off so many boxes

yes that movie checks off there was an intense cultural conversation around the movie like a very weighty and important cultural conversation around the movie. Like a very weighty and important cultural conversation around the movie. About the historical accuracy of the story. About the historical accuracy of the story.

About whether or not this is a movie that should be celebrated in the entire black diaspora. You know what I mean? About the history of the homie tribe. All of that stuff, right?

So it had the cultural weight. It had the box office and the movie has viola davis yeah right so it it it seems as if if the academy were even paying attention to itself there'd have been a bunch of guys in a smoke-filled room with cigars that went hey we can't ignore the woman king gotta make sure we give it all and you know and look for all of the films that were recognized like you know just the people that i fuck with and kick it to they're like they didn't see women talking i saw it you know what i mean so they sometimes the frame of reference for some of the people that i'm speaking with is off because they're like, wait a minute,

how can this movie, all of these movies are great films, but how can this movie that I've never heard of in some way achieve some sort of critical recognition that the woman king, which everyone was talking about, which stars a bona fide Hollywood staple,

a tradition, Viola Davis. An EGOT winner. An EGOT winner. An EGOT winner. As of this, as of this Grammy. Right, like how could they ignore that? And it just goes, well, maybe they just don't fucking get us. Or what we talk about,

or maybe we're in some way unimportant. I think that's a conversation that we'll continue to have. I think there's something interesting that intersects with that too, though, because you talk about the campaign that you were a part of and the money that was spent to power that campaign. Sometimes there are practical realities like Sony is the distributor of the woman king. Sony does not have strong a recent track record with the Academy Awards. And a lot of times this boils down to who works for your company and how good are they at organizing events? How good are they at spreading the word? How good are they at creating an influenced campaign

around their product? It's very possible that this was a bad situation in every way, that it's a story about women, that it's a story about black women, that it's a story about Africa, that it's a movie that's made by Sony, that it's a movie that also had a fraught cultural conversation around it

that maybe people wanted to back away from and not go toward. And so you take all of these things and you put them all together and then something like that is cast aside. And a movie like Woman Talking, which I like quite a bit, but no one saw.

I mean, has like no cultural footprint at the moment. And maybe that will change when streaming comes along. But for now, that is a movie that gets nominated that I think still makes people feel like the Oscars is very clubby. And it's a challenge for the Academy Awards that even when they extend to 10 nominees, that more commercial, mid-commercial fare, like The Woman King isn't getting in, and Women Talking is getting in, you know, it's all subjective.

Taste is randomized in many ways. But those are, they're so obviously pitted against each other because they're both movies about women with women in the title so it's it's unique um and then i will say this for me the gina prince blythewood of it all was the thing that most that's a just a hell of an opportunity right there to make history that you just don't get yeah like that's not even kicking down a door if she's recognized it's kicking down a building that's like a patty jenkins type of like i mean that's a that's a you know what i mean and you just never been a black woman nominated for best director you just want it so badly um but we press on you know and i just

hope that people you know and at the at the risk of like offending someone i just hope people could see how like how the sausage is made there it's hard to get people to go on the record about this stuff it's a lot like political campaigns yeah yeah and it's like and it's like there's a lot that goes into it you know what i mean any other like reflections you had on the best picture race out of curiosity because it still feels open right now there was this big moment at the at the academy luncheon you know where one i was told by a handful of people that when tom cruise arrived at the luncheon the throng gathered around him you know it was like that's right like the true rock star of hollywood had arrived it is the best movie of the year it's the best movie and then right after that we had this moment capture between steven

spielberg and Tom Cruise, where they embraced, and Steven Spielberg thanked Tom Cruise for saving theatrical movies. Now, those guys have a history. They made War of the Worlds together. There was this understanding that maybe they had kind of parted ways for a little while. They're seen in this big embrace. We've been talking about the race for a minute now on the show. And last time we talked about it, there was this lingering thing in the back of my mind that was like,

can Maverick win? win like could this actually happen because people had what you just said is what people say when you walk into some of these rooms where you're like that is that was my favorite movie it it should win and it would take a lot of courage for the academy to do it but this is the time for them to show courage you remember when tom cruise had his freak out of course and he's yelling i don't know if this was on the set of mission impossible if it was on the set of maverick i can't remember what it was oh this freak out okay all right freak out which about covid about about keeping the production going keeping the production going i can't remember i think it was mission

impossible because it was during covid and top gun was i, wrapped by the time that... It had been finished for a while. We are the gold standard! Okay. So, look. So, look. He was talking about Mission Impossible, which that's a fantastic looking trailer. Can't wait for that movie. He's insane. But everything that he said about that movie held true to Top Gun.

Now, he might have seemed a little off, but you can tell that Tom Cruise, and I think one of the reasons why Top Gun and Mission Impossible, he cares deeply about the craft of filmmaking. It doesn't matter if his movie is the most culturally important movie or if it's just a good solid story, but he cares deeply about it, right? shows in in top gun you go to top gun and you don't expect like i've been watching that the original since i was a kid you don't expect to leave inspired yeah correct you don't expect to leave like ah you're like you don't you don't expect to leave feeling that old feeling again and i think that kind of encapsulates for me. I like all the other nominees,

but I think it's the best movie of the year. I just don't know. What do you guys think? You guys think they have the nuts to give it to a big, loud movie with a lot of... I never think the Academy has the nuts to do anything, so I'm nervous about that. And

I also... The other tidbit I saw from the Oscars luncheon was that everyone associated with Everything Everywhere All at Once got very loud applause. And I think right now that is like the presumptive favorite, which I think at this point in the Oscar race is always a dangerous place to be. But it does seem like everyone's just really jazzed on that movie. I still think that's going to win. I felt that's going to win for a long, long time. Another fantastic movie. We shall see. We shall see.

Ben, where are you on Tar? We haven't talked about this. Okay. Too much for me. Am I glad I asked or am I not glad I asked? It's's fantastic performance I think my sentimental pick

is Michelle Yeoh sure if we're just talking about who threw down yeah come on came by chat came by chat if you're talking about

just who threw down I'm not saying Michelle didn't throw down because she threw down but like it's hard to yes yeah you know what I mean I'm with you

yeah it's one of those things where it's like you wish that the Michelle Yeoh performance had been in a different year. In a different year. Because other, you know, you just come up against that. Kate's been there before. But I'll tell you what, I'll never, I'll watch everywhere, everything everywhere all

at once again. I'll never watch Tari. Okay. Let's go, you know. I've seen it two and a half times now. Big fan. Yeah. Kind of, it's got lydia tar energy okay that's

that's a rude thing to say but if if anyone would like me to send lydia tar's uh wardrobe supplied by the row i'm i'm accepting yeah that was that's that's kalika was just going nuts yeah it's just it's immaculate you can't believe how good it is yeah it's actually like literally your taste i know does that concern you yes of course of course but that's the power of tar like that's we did a whole podcast about like should we be alarmed at how we're responding to this the answer is yes okay but also look at those clothes speaking of tar let's elongate to Avatar. Wow. Avatar the Way of Water. This is what I'm saying. We've been podcasting a lot. This movie is nominated for

Best Picture, Best Sound, Best Production Design, and Best Visual Effects. I am of the mind that it will win at least three of those, but it will not win Best Picture. It's now earned $2.215 billion.

Jim Cameron, before the movie was released, famously came forward and said, this movie will not break even unless it makes $2 billion. And people were like, my guy, don't say that out loud. Just like, let it be what it's going to be. And I don't know if he was saying it out of trepidation or if he was challenging God himself, but lo and behold, it has crossed $2.2 billion.

This is one of the biggest movies ever made. Amanda and I did a podcast about it when it was released three months ago. And I think we were both wowed by the achievement. I in particular was gobsmacked by the third act. And I was like, James Cameron is the absolute engineering master of movies. But I think we were a little light, a little soft on the story. And so we talked about this a little bit when I saw you and I wanted to talk to you about it because I think you had a really, really strong positive reaction to the movie, right? I was absolutely floored.

Speak on it. I'm not like a, I was into the first Avatar. Like I dig the entire thing. I dig the whole world. But I wasn't like, I was like, why are they doing this the entire thing. I dig the whole world. But I wasn't like, I was like, why are they doing this again? Whatever. You made a one-off, dog.

Get out of here. And I'll tell you an interesting story about the movie. We went to go see the movie one time, and the theater went nuts. And it cut off in the middle of the movie, and they were like, everybody go home. There's not going to be any movie. And that wasn't in IMAX 3D. It was like a regular whatever. When we went back, obviously the experience was completely and totally different.

It is a technological marvel and a wonder. And when the movie ended, I remember like looking at Kalika, who i go see these movies with and she was crying like you know what i mean like she was and i'm sitting here like i'm looking around like what am i missing so when we say that the movie was a little light on story there were some ham-handed and heavy-handed things about it but family in peril family needs help bad guys come from far away to try to injure family i'm i'm i'm we've been telling the same story for years and years and years and years what i told you when we had this conversation is that I do think that the reaction to the movie, in my opinion, it unearthed a degree of cynicism that I feel like movie-going audiences have now. To where you need more, different, all of that stuff. And that movie has that.

It has more effects, different technology. Like it tells, but in its story, the simplicity of it is it's a family in turmoil and that's been exiled and how they come together and deal with loss,

not just the loss of a family member, but deal with the loss of everything that they had known before. You have a little terrible character, Spider. It's bad. It's bad. Okay.

All right, we can all agree. It's bad. It's bad. But at the end, I feel like it's bad. Okay, it's bad. It's whack. It happens.

You know what I mean? It's a Jar Jar Binks situation. And I feel like at the end of the movie, the big kind of like, you know, the big sort of emotional crescendo that he gets to with, I guess,

who was his father but not really his father, whatever. The avatar replication of his father. It kind of makes it worth it a little bit. And I came away

from the movie, it's like, you know, what are we asking from our films now? And I come from a place, I come from an era of simpler movies. I come from an era of Pee-wee's Big Adventure, Go Get Your Bike Back, Large Marge, On the Way. I come from an era of Tango and Cash.

I come from an era of the good movie, the movie that can hold your attention for an hour and 40 minutes, and you sit down and you're like, oh, okay, that was good. Not the life-changing film. Not every time you sit down is it going to be fucking moonlight. You know what I mean?

Like just the good movie. And I just felt like Avatar, it's not a life-changing story, but it's a good strong story to anchor its next level generational effects. So it's a persu, strong story to anchor its next-level generational effects. So it's a persuasive argument. It is. And there is one challenge in it.

And you're sweating. You just gave an impassioned plea. He's not sweating. We gave him the floor. You just like exhaled. Yeah, I did. James, clear the check. I never meant to.

I think the thing that is interesting about it is, you know, we too come from that era and we often long for it. And I hope this isn't understood as a criticism of the movie because it's not, but it's a movie that is attempting to use the mechanics of the good movie alongside the most extraordinary

technological execution that maybe we've ever seen in a movie. Like this is, he truly continued to revolutionize what we can see on screen. And I think when one thing is as elevated and extraordinary and another thing is so transparently not quite on the same level,

it actually weighs down the experience somewhat. Now, I think there's something interesting, and we didn't really get into this when we first talked about it, Amanda, about kind of like accepting the struggles or the modesty of one part of a movie and just letting the other parts overtake you. But I did the same thing for Babylon.

Babylon, some people love it, some people hate it. There are things about Babylon that are quote unquote not effective. You know, story is at times incoherent. The characterizations are really overblown. The performances are way outsized. It's a messy movie, but I love it and will passionately defend it. For whatever reason, The Way of Water, even when I revisited it last night, I was like, this is amazing, but, and the but still lingers for me with the movie a little bit.

How are you feeling? Well, I, the modesty did not jump out to me. And I think maybe the problem was that there was so much else going on that I could not connect to that very simple story of family in peril. And I mean, I agree. I don't know what to say. It looks incredible. I, too, admire the ocean. And he just, like, created it on screen for three hours. Like, that is sick. You know? It's, like, it's unbelievable.

And you watch it and you have to remind yourself that, like, all of it is digitally animated. Like, it is an incredible achievement. To me, it also felt like Big Jim had been in the lab with these people and these stories for 13 years and was very in his own mind and created this whole world, which is like an incredible, like creative story act as well. But also like a little bit like, OK, like you've been in the room with that for a long time and i am just coming in and this this is a lot of information and a lot of people and i'm not seeped in the same way that you are in this uh and i just found it a little overwhelming i think yeah and by the way this happens with you know this happens to lucas lucas makes the star wars movies right and then we have then we have a long break. Lucas has more to say.

Exactly. And oh boy, does he say it. Yes. You know what I mean? Says it to a point to where at first we were like, George, you're giving us a lot. Right. You know what I mean?

And so, yeah, obviously he's invented new technology to tell this story. This is his thing. Think about it. Like James Cameron has really decided that he's just going to make one group of movies forever. Right.

There's no more True Lies, Satanic, like, Terminator 2, that type of, that's done. What we're going to do is we're going to do, we're Avatar,

we're blue forever now. Until he dies. Until he dies. Like, this is, so, I get it. I looked at it, I'm like, talking whale So, I get it. I looked at it. I'm like, talking whale, you're my pal. I loved the whale.

I'm like. Yeah. He has feelings. Sure. Of course. He's beautiful. The whale comes to save the day at the end. Y'all, I wasn't expecting that.

I will say. That was beautiful. When the whale rises up and kind of crash lands on the aircraft carrier, in my heart, I was like, this is cinema. This is what I want. But then the flip side of that is I had a friend who went with her daughter to see Avatar. They had a great time. And then she came home. She came and asked me and she was like, liked it so much.

But do you know who Sigourney Weaver's teen character's mom was and like and so number one she asked the question and then me trying to answer that I was like well well now I'm in hell and now we're all in hell and like that that extra weight is what pulls it down for me because I have no idea what what's going on with that entire thing. I don't know. And I was like, remember when she was sort of like straddling Sigourney Weaver in a MRI tube? But is she alive? I mean, that part of it.

And then they're trying to figure out who her dad is. Does that mean that my homeboy Joel David Moore, shout out to Joel, does that mean that they had sex as Avatar? I don't know. My understanding of that is that it's more of a Mary situation. I also thought it was an immaculate birth situation. And that Awa is really the father, so to speak, of that child. Awa is the tree? Pandora Jesus.

Yeah, the sort of the spiritual central power. Van's just like, yeah, you know, like you're just like motioning like that's the guy. Oh, of course.

You know, Jesus, sure. I mean, the thing is, is with these, I think you're right to bring up Star Wars

with these massive cultural mythologies that are constructed by these kind of brain geniuses, you know, that are sitting in a room and it's like, I have a dream,

I have an idea and one day I will make it manifest on screen. And then these people who actually follow through, like who come up are sitting in a room and are like, I have a dream, I have an idea, and one day I will make it manifest on screen. And then these people who actually follow through, like who come up with these ideas and then they are relentless in their pursuit to create. They also have to use the tools of storytelling, which is like teasing you with something, but not fully explaining it. Avatar the Way of Water is a really interesting example of this to me, though, because the

movie kind of yada yada is the whole setup of the movie for like five minutes and then we're off. You know like Longer. Maybe 15 minutes at most. I mean it's really short

where it's like the humans have returned. It's like the family is together. They're developed. We see the relationships amongst the siblings and the parents

who are trying to figure out how to father and mother their children. And then the humans come back and then there's a ball of fire and then Jake Sully has to step down how to father and mother their children. And then the humans come back, and then there's a ball of fire, and then Jake Sully has to step down from his role, and then they have to go to the land of water. Yeah.

And that happens very quickly. And it felt like, when I can feel a filmmaker's lack of interest in a part of his own story, I find that frustrating. And unfortunately, the world is so big, and the story is so kind of ungainly at times that the seams, again, they pop out to me.

And I'll tell you what I did is the second time I watched it, I watched it on my TV. And you weren't as affected? I was not as unaffected as I was watching Avatar on TV. The first Avatar, I've said this on this podcast before. The first time I saw it, I was like, God damn it. This is just extraordinary. Like, this is just so incredible what he accomplished. It's so cool. I was so inside

of it and loved it so much. And then I would watch it at home and I'd be like, this really doesn't work that well. You know, when you're only, when you're seeing it on your 40-inch television screen in 2013. This one still worked well for me, but what i skipped on more was kind of the storytelling bumps and it's not that it's archetypal which is what you're

describing you're saying this is a common story we've come to accept that it's a story but there's just some things where it's like i didn't really care about the dialogue in this part and you can tell because it's riddled with cliches and then there are other times where you feel like you are in the hands of a true storytelling master and those that combination that kind of collision of positive and negative is it really rattled for me even the second time we've talked about this before about as a filmmaker or filmmakers achieve success the one thing that they lose is the ability to edit themselves. It becomes harder to believe that everything doesn't deserve to be in the movie. I could give you another example. The Wachowskis.

The Matrix is a sleek, sexy, like, experiment in just minimalism. Just like, hey, we get to the point. Computer, call me. Boom, boom, boom. Next movie, there's a council and they went full star wars and then the lore gets so big that the the the subsequent films kind of get way down under kind of the weight of it i'm not saying that that didn't happen here with avatar what i'm saying is for me the the highs of the movie connect so easily for me, story-wise.

There are things that you forget. Like, I had actually, until we were just having this conversation, forgot that there's a whole part of the story that I really didn't understand. Like, how she has special powers. You know what I mean? And so, but... But when she is, like, you know, vibing with the... Kiri we're talking about. When she's, like, touching the jellyfish and, like, you know, vibing with the... Kiri we're talking about. When she's like touching the jellyfish and like swimming around in wonder.

And you actually can see Sigourney Weaver as like a teen making the face of wonder as she swims around in the ocean. I just thought that was beautiful. It looks great. And I so... But to me, let me tell you what kind of brings me back. Jason Isaacs one time, you know that guy, the actor? Yeah. So I hope that it's, it might be Isaac.

I think it's Isaacs. Isaacs, you're right. Is it Isaacs? Yeah. Because I have to, I put an S on the end of stuff. That's people in my culture. Yeah, you got some outrage there for your Groundhog's Day situation. Me and my dad.

Let it be known that no one here corrected you on this podcast. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Okay. So I saw him in the gym one time. He's kind of cut. Nah, he's not. That motherfucker was doing his thing. He was in that bitch.

I was like, yo. And so I can't. So that motherfucker was doing his thing, bro. He was in that motherfucker going. This was some years ago. He wasn't playing around. So I'm in the gym one time. I go up to him, and I'm like, dude, I know you.

And he's like, you know what he had on? At that point, he had that show Brotherhood. Yes. That was on Showtime. It was him and your man. What's the guy's name? Jonathan Tucker. Was he on that show?

Nah, it was the guy that plays. Is that his name? The guy that plays. He played John Connor in Terminator Genisys. He's like a really well-known actor. It was him. I don't know. Like, he's just like Jason Clark.

Jason Clark. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Jason Clark. Good actor. Great actor. So I go up to him.

I was like, yo, dog, I love the Patriot. He's like, and you were great in that. He goes, not really. I was like, what? He's like's like dude the first time you see me i kill a kid evil anybody could do it he was like he was like the first like the first time you see me i shoot a kid kill a kid show no remorse like evil and then I just coast through the rest of the movie just being bad. Right. I don't mind that.

Bad people do bad stuff and I say this avatar. Guy shows up, kills whale, extracts brain goo from whale. I had some questions about that. Fuck you. Yeah.

For the rest of the movie. True. Like that's, whale has baby baby orphan well baby oh fuck you give me that so injected into my veins villain do bad things and this is something that we don't do anymore kylo ren do we hate him do we love him he's a bad guy but he had trouble childhood his uncle tried to kill him that's not what i want i want i i liked it but it's also do you want to fuck him or not so that's interesting and just daisy you know like what's going on there yeah at the end at in the last three movies in the third movie when they kiss i'm like you know what man fuck these guys i was mad about that yeah you know i thought that was so just, every now and again, just let me hiss to the bad guys.

Is that what you did in the theater? No, I didn't. But I was very, now I'm like, really, fuck you. Yeah, I mean, you're raising

an interesting point, which is like, there's a binary classical style of storytelling, which is the bad guys are bad and the good guys

are good. And as in the last 20 years, we have become, we've made efforts to be more nuanced in the way that we tell stories like this.

James Cameron comes from a time where the aliens will kill you. The T-1000 will cut a hole in your chest. Not even any lines. Just like, hardly any lines. Just a brainless killing machine. And that makes your protagonists, that brings brings it brought the humanity out of another fucking out of another robot yes yes and so you make a really interesting point and jason isaacs makes a really interesting point to you in the gym 15 years ago about how it's really the writing

that is driving that character and not his performance and that the writing being simplistic is actually quite helpful and that maybe is a credit to Avatar the Way of Water, that there are some places where it's completely incoherent or unexplained and then there are other places where you follow so closely what's happening because you're like he's bad, he's good. And it's helpful for our brains. It's lacking in sophistication.

For sure. Without a doubt. And I do also think there is a way to do simple things well, and then there's a way to do simple things simply. And I do also think there is a way to do simple things well. And then there's a way to do simple things simply. And, you know, just because the dialogue is obvious, it doesn't have to also be dumb. You know, like obvious things are great sometimes. But then sometimes it's also like, oh, you forgot to do this.

Or you have like not talked to a real human being in three months because you've been animating this. So you just you wrote what you think people sound like. In 100 meters, turn right. Actually, no, turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage, bacon and egg.

A crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm. A spicy and egg. Worth the detour. They sound, a crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm. A spicy and egg worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax at participating McDonald's restaurants.

Ba da ba ba ba. I want to make a point of comparison because there's a movie that I haven't really talked too much on this podcast. You may not have even seen it, Van, but it's notable to me because I got a link to this conversation between James Cameron and a woman named Antonetta Alamot

Kuzjanovic, who directed a movie called Marina earlier this year. Small foreign film about a young woman who lives on the coast. And it's nominated for a bunch of Film Independence Period Awards.

It's a very good movie. I think it's streaming on Showtime right now. Jim Cameron, who loves a simple story set on the sea, is lending his credibility to exposing the people the world to this movie which i believe is executive produced by martin scorsese and i think the reason he's into it is because it's set up in the ocean yeah it's like it's about a young woman who

likes to swim around and you know her father's a fisherman and you know a man enters their life and it complicates it interesting uh don't't they always? Cliff Curtis is the guy who, he's amazing. Yeah. And he's great in the film. But, I, James Cameron's like desire to keep it simple,

I think is a kind of a testament to his greatness, but it is also something that I haven't, as I've been thinking about his movies and his career, the movies of his that I love the most are the ones that I saw

when I was the youngest. And the older I i get and the more embittered i get this is a terrible take but the harder it is for me to fall in love like once again you're just like i don't like titanic i thought we learned about it that's not what i said well Titanic in um Cal is that his name Billy Zane's character yeah incredibly just evil evil

right doesn't respect Picasso and hits Kate Winslet yeah everything about him bad he says he says Picasso won't

want him out to anything like everything it was like a super one note character guy killed himself at the end right we don't even we don't see it but we're like good guy killed himself at the end right we don't even

we don't see it but we're like good you know what i'm saying obviously you know but like we're like like he sucked you know did he i thought you see him at the island at the end asking after rose so in the narration oh they say that he lost all his money in the stock market crash. Okay, after. In 29. Okay. You know what I mean? So it's like. Two of the foremost Titanologists here.

I love that movie. Here's the thing is that Sean's like, I don't know about Titanic. That's not. Titanic, are we sure? Can you tell her to relax on my behalf? What's the last great movie to you that Cameron made? They're all great. That's the problem. Like, that's what I'm working on.

There are no not great James Cameron movies. Even Piranha 2, The Spawning, which he has disowned. I watched and I was like, there is greatness in this. There is always greatness

in all of his movies. You know, I like many people of my generation that had my absolute breath taken away by T2 and Aliens. And even to some extent, The Abyss,

even though I think it has flaws. But when I get into movie podcaster mode with dissecting the movies and looking at all the beats and what worked and what didn't, and I start furrowing my brow at the movies, I kind of feel bad about myself because he is this extraordinary figure who is monomaniacally committed

to improving the way that we visually tell stories which is something i really care about i'm the same idiot who is like here's why michael bay is important and it's for the same reason because michael bay is trying to challenge the conventions of what we want to see in a movie maybe not how to tell a good story yeah but james cameron is has always been on top of the mountain and Michael Bay is an object of derision. And so it's easier to kind of match those two things, but I'm,

I'm, I guess I'm, this is just the therapy session for me. Well, Michael Bay's sacrifice a story at the expense of a slow-mo shot of a girl's butt. You know what I mean? Like,

did he sacrifice it or did he illuminate what's meaningful to him? Right. I mean, maybe, but so, so, so that's his perspective is he a bit crass yes he is so i some of michael bay's you know some of michael bay's movies once again armageddon yo fantastic classic right there fantastic the rock like here five star film what do you what what more do you want out of the movie? You know what I mean?

Um, Sean Connery getting his haircut. Love that shit. Yeah. But then there are other times where you're like, all right, Mike, this is,

yeah, no, I'm not like that. You're not like that. No, no. I tried so hard to walk out of pain and gain. I was just desperate to leave.

Okay. So you know what's funny about that? Yeah. Pain and gain is an example of him trying to do something that I think he shouldn't be trying to do. He shouldn't be like, I have a great sense of humor and also I'm interested in satire. No, you're not. You're Michael Bay.

You are a explosive exposition of the id. That's what you do. Don't try to have an idea. Your ideas are made manifest by making an image. James Cameron challenges, I think think a lot of my conventions about how i think about movies is is what i'm trying to say and this movie in particular is unique because once again everybody doubted him once again he proved everybody wrong we didn't doubt him we didn't doubt no i'm yeah i did not think i did not make two billion dollars people were being we did a guess i guess we did and we did like 1.6 billion so i guess in

that sense people were being such haters about it i didn't think it would make the two billion well after i saw it man i saw this motherfucker three times so that's nine hours that's nine hours more than that three hours and i would like to follow up on that like what time of day are you going to see avatar for the third time? So you know what the funny thing is? It's like I got used to doing something that no one else does. I call it a top of the morning. Yeah.

Like, when I was working at TMZ, like, they would tell me to go and, like, they would be, Van, go to the Grove, get a celebrity. The problem is that when you go to the Grove, like, nobody's right to like 11 o'clock right but the grove like opens at like 9 or 9 30 things open so when i if i have to be at the grove for nine i go to the movies as soon as they open right i go to the movies i get popcorn and i just i like whatever's playing is what i watch love this this is how I saw, what's the fracking movie that Matt Damon made? Deep. No.

Promise Land. Promise Land. This is how I saw Promise Land. I saw Wreck-It Ralph. I saw a lot of movies that I probably wouldn't have seen otherwise. Just literally one guy in the theater, me. I love it.

They probably, they did away with a lot of the 9 a.m. screenings now. They did. They aren't starting them till one o'clock. And it's like, I need to of the 9 a.m. screenings now. They did. They aren't starting them till 1 o'clock. And it's like, I need to be home by 4.30, you know? I caught an 11 o'clock of Avatar. Wow, beautiful. Okay, so is that, what are you doing meal-wise?

Popcorn, is that at an IPIC situation? You go there, you get the popcorn. This is when I don't have to worry about the judgment of others. Right. So I go there. I get the popcorn in the little cardboard box. Right. You know what I mean?

So I can mix all of the stuff up. You know, I have the Impossible Nuggets as well. Okay. Because this is basically brunch. Impossible Nuggets. All right. Yeah. I want to believe that it's better. I know.

We do Impossible Burgers for the same reason. And I'm like, their nutrition label is on the thing i know that it's not better for me you know i know it's environmentally better but like i but i'm with you in my head i'm being healthy i also remember for years you couldn't even get chicken tenders at amc because of supply chain issues it was unavailable chicken tenders couldn't get them. So popcorn chicken tenders, what else is in the cardboard box? A big thing of M&M's, the sharing size.

Do you put the M&M's in the popcorn? Of course I do. Plain or peanut? No, I can't. Of course, peanut. I hate that. Oh, wow, what's wrong with you? I mean, I love M&M's, peanut M&M's, all their products.

I don't want them in my popcorn. And I'm just sitting back, avataring. Leave me alone. That's beautiful. I'm sitting back, avatar Avatar. Leave me alone. That's beautiful. I'm sitting back, Avatar. Leave me alone.

And then me and Kalika win another time. Okay. So, Avatar. I love the movie. Are you excited about three? You know,

this is the thing about these films is that not really. You know what I mean? This is the conversation I want to have. But also, you'll go.

I'll go. You'll probably have a nice time. But they say yo we're not making that bitch i'll be like you know you're saying it's like not after the first avatar yeah i wasn't like i loved it but i wasn't like yo i need a i need another one is there a part of you that thinks he should wait 13 years and elevate the visual execution again because now he's challenged himself, and he has already written and shot this film, but it's not going to have the introductive storyline of, you've never seen underwater photography and digital animation quite like this.

This new film won't have that. Didn't they already shoot it? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's done. It's not new. It? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Like, so he, it's done. It's done. It's not like something like avatar three is sort of like going to see avatar two in terms of the technology,

but I don't really, I mean, I think that's disappointing to you, Sean fantasy. Okay. Most people like Vin, you went to, I shouldn't speak for you right here.

Did you go because you wanted to admire the filmmaking or did you just like being in the world? I went to the movie. Talk about the first time I went to see it. The second and third time. Oh, the second time. The second and third time. I just, there were things, literally scenes on screen I wanted to see again. Yeah.

So people don't. They're like scenes on screen I want to see again. It was like stuff that was happening. I just wanted to do it again. Yeah. To be honest with you you that movie is not unlike one of those dark roller coasters that you ride at like universal studios you know what i mean space mountain you're talking well space mountain i can't ride why it makes me dizzy

never do it again i love space never do i thought my brain was gonna explode have you been on space mountain not since i was like eight it's sick but i'm talking about like you guys gotta go a lot and ride star wars rise of resistance separate podcast I'm talking about like, you guys got to go and watch and ride Star Wars Rise of Resistance, separate podcast. I'm talking about one of those ones that you just sit in and it's like, oh, it's Optimus Prime.

We've stole the AllSpark. The movie is not unlike that, especially at times with how immersed you are into it. So I just kind of wanted to ride it again. So there's one lingering thing which came up before this film was released. And now I have seen bubble up, which is despite the fact that

it has made all this money, there's this persistent note that it has not made a kind of quote unquote cultural impact that it doesn't have a footprint that people don't talk about it the same way that we talk about Marvel movies or Top Gun Maverick, the same way that we don't meme the movie in the same way as all these other movies. I'm curious for both of you, like, do you subscribe to that? Does that seem any different than it did six months ago? Yeah, but it's like talking about the internet, you know? And you think that's ultimately what this is? It's like we spend, it's all the investment.

It's like time spent, you know? And that's like the genius of it. I guess sometimes we talk about memes, you know, that's like the genius of it like you don't i guess sometimes we talk about memes you know but you sound like a real idiot that's not the reason that you look at memes or you read the internet you just spend the internet to like be on the like the experience is the thing how many conversations in your life have you had about avatar the way of water i had the one about who's sigourney weaver's mom was teen version which is sigourney weaver which is fraught um and then you know um i think that's it okay so one and then i've talked

with you and what a great time you had yeah yeah you loved it what how many how many conversations have you had about this movie not very many i'll be honest with you yeah like i had talked to uh obviously the midnight boys about it and then i talked to my mom about it what'd she make of it i mean my mother was blown away yeah yeah is she a cineast um yeah she but she it doesn't take much you know i mean it's like it's like my mom like my mom will come in and we'll be watching like Um, yeah, she, but she, it doesn't take much. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like my mom, like my mom will come in and we'll be watching like, cause everyone, now and again, I just throw on Donner Superman. My mother goes, wow. It really looks like he's flying.

That's real though. I'll be like, yo. And she's like, but you have to understand this was the seventies. I'm like, yeah. So it doesn't say much for her, but she loved it. Once again, animal lover. Yeah. That's the thing is that this movie, I think, doesn't necessarily have strong storytelling nuance, but it has very strong themes. And that's probably one of the reasons why it resonates so clearly with people.

But those themes are obvious. And if you believe in them, if you believe in the idea of ecology and protecting the planet i see the segue coming it's like a 12 point turn yeah keep going keep going then it then the film will work for you and so that brings us the triangle of sadness uh which is another movie that has a lot of strong themes um i thought you were gonna try to tie like the ecology and capitalism or anti-capitalism sort of i was getting there things that well i thought you were gonna do it all in one segue well i and then i made you self-conscious and you gave up yeah you you no no no we're still the trains on the tracks we're good just keep rolling along you sit in the caboose i'll drive um that's mean

money and power and things that people need quote-unquote need to survive and thrive as a society is like at the heart of many of james cameron's movies and is certainly at the heart of the way of water the whale brain juice which is like the grossest funniest thing ever right um becoming the new gold rush for these people in this movie animates the final conflict of Avatar The Way of Water. Triangle of Sadness is also a portrait

of a dying Earth and the psychotic people who care about money inside of it. Just to foreground the conversation, because you hit me up, I don't know, a month ago, and we're like, did you see this?

What'd you think? And we haven't really spent a lot of time on the movie on the podcast. Despite the fact that Ruben Ostlund was a really big fan of his last two films. He's only made four movies at this point. This film, The Palme d'Or.

I think you liked it more than I did. I did. I wouldn't say you were over the moon for it. Yeah, but then I rewatched it and I... You're in. I think I might be in. I'm more in than out, I think. Okay, I'm intrigued by that. You, Van, you're in i think i might be in i'm more in than out i think okay i'm intrigued by that you van you were in all the way in i've only ever seen two of his movies okay so force majeure and the other i don't even know i couldn't even name the other one but like i saw this one

and i saw this one yeah so i've only seen two of his movies the first film is a swedish film called play which is quite an interesting movie actually about kids and like a social experiment among children, but is much smaller than these movies. Triangle of Sadness is the biggest movie. Woody Harrelson is kind of top lining the movie. For anybody who hasn't seen it or isn't aware of it, it's a portrait of a young, a pair of models who are dating, who go on a very expensive cruise and then things go awry, deeply awry, wildly awry on this cruise. And then that leads to this portrait of class warfare,

and it's a true blue light ether-rich satire. Very European in its construction and in the way that it sees the people in its world. I thought it was really overwritten, and I say that as somebody who likes the obviousness of the targets that Ruben Oslin draws.

And yet, I also watched it a second time and liked it more. My main complaint was the overriddenness and the just the literal heavy handed, like the spokenness of everything, which has been sort of my complaint out of a lot of movies I've seen this year, books I've read this year. I don't know whether it's generational, but like, it's not just that we say the thing, but we got to like say it four times, you know, in like PhD thesis statement language and like put a flashing light over it. I'm just like, yeah, I get it. But the second time around, I, it became clear to me that the overwrittenness is the point.

Purposeful. Yes. And like the self awareness is part of the thing that's being parodied. So in force majeure, this is kind of like a treatise on masculinity and men in the 21st century being these kind of frail, lame versions of whatever their expectations are surrounding them.

The second film, The Square, is this big satire of the art world and the people who operate inside of museums and foundations. And they're both big, broad satires in a way too. This one's an Eat the Rich movie. why did you like it so much van so there was something that because obviously there are three different chapters in the movie right there was something that the first chapter was able to do for me which make which was to make me surrender to the absurdity of this right because

what's happening is absurd it's not know, they're arguing over the check. Who makes the most money? They're two really beautiful looking people. And I'm watching it and I'm like, when is this going to end? And the fact that it doesn't end and that it continues to go as certain, as a certain point, I'll look around. I'm like, what the fuck? And it just continues to go. And then for some reason for some reason in that absurdity there is meaning like i start to say i'm like i start to think yo think about the world that we live in that these people are diving this deep into this situation and i realized something that conversation is how it would really go.

Like movies bail you out. Movies say, movies let you fall in love with someone in 25 minutes. Movies let you have an awakening with somebody in five minutes, six minutes. Oh, this happens.

Like you watch Good Will Hunting. Oh, don't talk about my wife. Grab you by the neck. Next thing, we're friends. You don't want to sit down, give you a monologue. You've never been on a plane. Whatever. We're friends now.

I believe in you now. That's not how that goes. How it goes in real life is when you're stuck in a bad moment, you're there for a long time. Like you're there for 10, 20, 15 minutes. And there's no escaping it. And the only thing that you're kind of left to negotiate is why it was so fucked up in the first place. And I kind of feel like that's what the movie does. The movie doesn't allow you to escape anything. You're in that scene with those two characters, you can't get out of it. You have to be there. Then you're literally on a ship where you can't

leave. A woman is telling you that scene where a woman says, hey, everybody take a swim. And she's like, no, I really don't want to swim. Say no. I think you should be allowed to swim. Everybody take a swim. And the privilege that is mutated and perverted, you can't escape it. It's there.

There is no escape. Nobody's going to come bail you out. You're not going to be able to appeal to this woman. This is who escape nobody's gonna come bail you out you're not gonna be able to appeal to this woman this is who she is this is who you are get into the goddamn water and then everything goes awry there are some obviously i'm talking about things that are overwritten i mean there's some stuff there that i just couldn't even watch like people shitting themselves and puking and all of that stuff. No go for, for the kid.

Can't do it. Okay. Um, and then by the time we get to the third act of the movie, now we know what to expect. And I was just delighted. I was delighted in the emergence of a character that was a non-factor in the movie. Now I'm in this weird Lord of the Flies situation

to where everything that we thought has been turned on its head and something that films just can't do anymore. This movie nails, which is a fantastic, a fantastic, intriguing last scene to where we're not sure how this is going to end we don't know why he's running

we don't know what happened and you're left to kind of ponder just everything that you think about these characters and more so like our world and it's the type of movie that's not made in America

because the audience doesn't have the stomach for it so I kind of liked it for all of those reasons type of movie that's not made in america because the audience doesn't have the stomach for it so i kind of liked it for all of those reasons it's a very it's a very strong defense i think as i revisited the movie the part that definitively does not work for me is the middle part okay and as i said i think even when we talked about it the first part i found very intriguing i'm a big fan of kind of squirm inducing cringe comedy cringe comedy. That's something I like. And so if you like that,

sitting in that moment, as Van described, has a power to it. I thought it was a pretty authentic rendition, too, of two completely vacuous people being honest about how vacuous they are. You know, the resolution of their fight where she's like, I'm a model. I'm going to be a trophy wife.

This is it. And he's like, no, you're not. I'm going to change that. And she's like, okay. And she knows deep down how this I'm going to be a trophy wife. This is it. And he's like, no, you're not. I'm going to change that. And she's like, okay. And she knows deep down how this is all going to shake out. I thought that was wonderful. I thought that was like kind of him at his best. You know, like him really understanding human behavior and putting it on

screen in a clever way. And those two actors, Harris Dickinson and Charlize Theron, like, they're great. They're well cast. Second part of the movie, it's not just because it's gross, though it is gross, and it's meant to be gross and gross you out. But it's not just because it's gross though it is gross and it's meant to be gross and gross you out but it's just really broad you know a russian oligarch who literally sells shit you know lecturing um a ship captain about the perils of communism because of his experience living in russia and the ship captain quoting lenin and

marx to hit back to him and then their dialogue and exchange over the pa system while shit pours out of this multi-million dollar ship i get it i i get it my man like i know it's all a paradox right what a grotesque world we've built for ourselves it's just it's it's too much and overdrawn and then we get into the third act, and then the third act is it kind of like elevated Lord of the Flies, and it shows like where power really lies and like what privilege really means when we're all confronted with survival.

That worked and made sense for me. It's funny because the movie, Amanda, I feel like is successful and notable because of that second act. The movie is sold on the vomit, it's sold movie is sold on the vomit it's sold on the overflowing toilet it's sold on the ship that whole experience that's when people think of the movie they're going to think of that even though i think that part didn't work so when

you rewatch it what did you make of all because i know you don't love exploding toilets either i don't i i don't love exploding toilets but you know van never have a child if you can't deal with bodily fluids is all i have to say so i this second act definitely gets a reaction in you though sean and it you know it's funny normally i'm the one being like i hated it i didn't want to watch it i didn't like that which is true of like most things um but sometimes i have to give those movies credit for like provoking something in me even if i thought it was stupid or I was like, I get what you're doing and I like don't care about it. So I do think that's successful, that second act. I also think that the only reason that part of the reason they sell the second act is because it's noisy and also you don't want to spoil the third act, which I agree with Van is surprising. And the Dali De Leon performance, which I thought

was wonderful and I wish had been nominated for an Oscar, is also surprising and exciting. And movies like don't, you know, most movies just like trail off in the, they don't know how to stick But I found the blunt, almost stupid obviousness of it to be funny and also a little bit a send up of more quote unquote sophisticated movies trying to comment on these ideologies and the like rich people like i i found this to be more engaging than say the menu which is like a pretty similar and i mean it's the menu is very enjoyable and also a very obvious like eat the rich satire with just that it kind of is what it is on the label and i don't know the extraness of it was probably very cynical but also very funny to me yeah i think the middle part is the funniest part and i find myself laughing at stuff that i don't know if they ever thought it was gonna be funny like she comes down and she goes and they go uh you know you have to get the captain up they They want everybody to take a swim. And the guy's like, how about you just let him swim?

He just let him swim. And the other guy goes, ha ha, laughs. She's like, what are you doing? Get to work. And I'm just,

I'm just laughing at the movie. It, it, it like really, it put me in this weird world that exists, but kind of doesn't. Like it worked for me in, in a way.

And also that's the only part that has Woody Harrelson in it, who, you know. It's wonderful. Yeah. He's Woody Harrelson. Like, really, really good in the movie. I just think for some reason, and I want to ask you about something, Sean. I compare this movie to something. Okay.

Because I recently watched Babylon again. Hell yeah. You're going to say you loved it. No. You didn't love it. You thought it was the best movie of the year. Best movie of the decade? So this is the thing about Babylon that I do get.

Okay. Anytime somebody comes out to a place with a dream and watches a town and the excess of that town or whatever like crumple that dream up and crumple them up and throw them into the trash movie got me you could do that over and over and over again but babylon is a lot to get there babylon makes you go through it like drags you kicking and screaming through the mud. That entire part with Tobey Maguire, the asshole of Los Angeles deal. Yo, my G, that's a lot. One of the best sequences of all time.

I thought it was funny. Okay, so what I'm understanding is the triangle of sadness, it kind of reminds me of that in a way in that the movie like drags you through a lot to kind of get to what it's saying but i also think what it's saying is like a lot more important and accessible for a lot of people or for me personally it was you know i i would like to discuss that i think you're 100 right

that the core themes of triangle of sadness speak to a wider audience i also still don't know what babylon is trying to say, but at least the ending. You're the second person to ask me about this. I was talking to Bill Simmons about this on the podcast. Here's what I told him.

Hollywood is and has always been built on a pile of shit. And it's occupied by shitmongers. And that asshole of Hollywood sequence is just evidence of the fact that this has been a satanic place of vice and vaingloriousness

for decades.'m i meant the montage but oh the final well that's a whole other conversation come up with the montage that has avatar yes i've been oh my god i think i'm screaming i think i do you know what i think you know i think i get you know i think i do get that and not to go into a babylon situation but i think i get i think that montage is like hey it's all worth it of course that's what it is yes that is the first time you saw avatar you're like wow i think because at this point that is so lame that is like the least cool thing that i've ever heard in my entire life no way like that is so fucking embarrassing if that's what it is well like that is mortifying

that's worse than falling for like an andrea riseborough spawn con like get out of here if that's earnest i know you must you must relate to that you must accept that it is worth it i love the movies but like what if're going to make all of Babylon and then be like, no, what I'm going to do is make a montage of my guy watching Singing in the Rain and then every other great movie because it was all worth it

and I love the magic of movies. No, it's about the paradox of making something in this den of iniquity and then creating a feeling of spiritual and emotional magic. That is literally what he's doing. He's like, we can have something that feels pure when we experience it, but the way that it's made sacrifices a lot and is done

in a weird emotional darkness. That is the point of the movie. Do you remember when Jean Smart's talking to Connor? Remember what she tells him? She goes, hey, it's all over.'re done however let me tell you what you get in return you get eternity like you'll always live like some somewhere someplace at the pickford center somebody will be like looking at you in the film blah blah blah right

and he can't come to terms with that he goes yeah cool i appreciate it and then he blows his fucking brains i do remember that right that worked for me and so to me I mean you know that's kind of the entire purpose of the movie

that's the theme right that's fine guys I get all of that and then my guy went into like on his computer and like pulled

some clips from Avatar and the Matrix and like spliced them together on Christmas break or whatever. Because the Matrix rocks as Van identified earlier as does Avatar.

I think it's a fair comparison. And the thing I was going to ask you both is this big idea, which is that we're a corrupt society and that there's this huge wealth gap and that people who have are oblivious to those around them and to how people are struggling.

We understand that, right? We, that's a part of our common discourse now. And that you watch glass on you and you watch the menu, you watch succession, you watch all of these things that are about this. There are so many pieces of modern storytelling that are just about rich people being assholes or dumb. So why did it all coalesce in this moment? And why are we interested in trying to tell stories about people that we obviously hate is something that I'm kind of fascinated by. Well, in this movie, I think they reinforce this idea, but they also turn it on its head. Because as soon as she is the one of value, she literally...

Is corrupted. Is corrupted. Yeah. And I think the movie asks the question, it's like, is it because, are you upset because they're them? Or are you upset because you're not them?

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Are you mad at the fact that somebody has that or are you mad at the fact that you don't have it right and at the end of the movie like she ends up getting lucky and getting the lifeboat she has all this stuff and she can fish and she's she's got the worth in this and the last last scene was she, with the actress who unfortunately passed away, where she goes, you know, when we get back, I'll hire you to be my assistant. I'm like, fuck.

It's a great moment. I'm like, shit. And that's kind of what we're talking about. When I think about the larger stakes or the larger narratives in movies, I think about when a film puts you in a place and asks you what you're willing to risk. Like when it kind of juxtaposes your existence with somebody else's and makes you ask questions about how things would go for you if you were them. The movie spends really the first two acts setting up the fact that the meek didn't inherit the earth, but like in school times, will they be so meek when they do?

So, you know, it's easy to not fuck over people when you don't have the power to. So I think the movie talked about that, but it also talked about like how circumstance kind of dictates that. And that was the power of it. So I think that is an insightful and correct reading of the movie. And I wonder if that is why Hollywood likes this movie.

Because it abdicates their guilt. It lets them feel better about their privilege and everything that they have. And everything that we have here in this studio. And everything that anybody who watches the movie who is more fortunate than than someone like dolly dylan's character gets to say you know what maybe it's just like van said maybe it's just like it's human nature and yeah while also still being virtue signal signaling to like this because it's an examination of culture and the europeans like it and the yacht still sinks, right? Exactly, right. And it's like, we still know that these people are vapid and bad and that we shouldn't take like social media or, you know, weapons dealers seriously.

Or not seriously, but, you know, we shouldn't like them. But, no, I think you're right. Why do you think that these stories are so, not just happening not just happening but deeply resonant like everything i just named like the glass glass onions like the most watched movie on netflix the menu was a huge hit succession is the biggest show on television like why is this the centrality of our our cultural consumption well i think it has the fascination with and revulsion of rich people has always fueled culture and also life. I mean, like, you know, because we're all stuck in this human condition of being like, no, I want what they have.

And but also I hate them for having it, as Van said, but also I hate that I don't have it. So, I mean, at this moment, whether there's something more like visibly material of it because either of like Instagram or just because of the last four years that we lived through, you know, Trump and like, there's like a Trumpian aspect to like the, the wealth on display and triangle of sadness for sure, which I don't think is accidental, but, um, I don't know. It's, it's always this fascination with the people who have more and and movies also have all and and tv have always

been a medium that really like glamorizes and and adds to that um is a vehicle to to seeing and being a part of that world and so once you see it on the big screen, I don't know, people just have a, like a deep fascination and longing for it, I think, even if they know they're not supposed to. You know, I think this is one of the things that has changed, at least from my perspective, in a really binary way. Because I think about when I was growing up,

richness, when I looked at people who are rich. Besides, the only rich, really bad guy was Lex Luthor. He was always up to something. You know what I mean? He always wanted more money. He was rich, but he wanted more money. It was like whatever. But it was Silver Spoons.

It was Richie Rich. Even in that movie, The Edge, which me and Bill did on the rewatch. He's a billionaire that's very resourceful you know there was a there was something people celebrated being a billionaire like it was a it was something that was kind of like oh you must be really awesome yeah bill gates what a genius what a genius steve jobs goes through comes back like it was like a celebrated thing even Even in Indecent Proposal, which we talked about, that guy was kind of cool. Even though he was a real dickhead. But he was kind of cool.

This is done. That's done. Yeah. Right. So what happened? Dog. Like, first of all, people aren't stupid. It's one thing to have billions of dollars.

And it's another thing to have like $300 billion. To have $300 billion, you know, you have your own boat. A yacht is cool. But then, you know, you go into fucking space. People are like, yo, man. There's like a limit

to people's understanding of that. And then to see, hey, I had this much money. And then like in the last 15 years i made something like 200 billion dollars people are going i don't know i don't know if that's if that can work and they're and society is sort of relitigating that like in a grand way and that's one of the things that succession does and not just successions but all these documentaries bernie madoff wizard of lies type of situation what money will do to sam bateman freed ft ftx all of these things you continue to watch all

of these things like can you really be the dope person can you really be good ethical if that's the situation everything you just named also is a downfall. And I do feel like people are also interested in the downfall. That's true. You know, which is sort of obvious, but also fun. Is Succession a story about a downfall? I don't think that it's going well for any of those children. That's a good point. It's a fall, for sure.

Yeah, it's a fall. And, you know, I don't think that Logan Roy is going to live forever. That's true. None of us will. I mean, it really is a, it's a show about a bunch of like bad morons in a room together who like think they're entitled to something and they're not. But see, do you know what the, do you know what the, the question that the show asks you is, would you be them?

Would you, would you want to be any of the roys like it's like define wannabe want to be in their shoes or want to be acting like them what i mean is this is like you love your dad you love your mom you love your family life you love your siblings you guys go out you have guacamole together. Drink a jalapeno margarita. That sounds lovely. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah.

Would you trade all of that to be in that situation? Now, I would. You would leave us here? But I'd be somewhere with a goddamn trench coat on and one of those scarves pushing buttons and controlling shit. But they look so fucked up that it kind of gives people an out. This is one of the reasons why my former place of employment, I was convinced that people would always want to consume TMZ. Because it convinces you of the weirdness of Hollywood and the weirdness of these people.

And it allows you to make a choice. So that, that was going to be my, my follow-up question was, are ultimately these stories not in a necessarily purposeful way for every production, but seen at a grand scale. And when you think about who is financing and who is promoting and distributing these products, is this really Soma for the masses? Is this really like, are you sure you want to be like this? Are you sure you want it? Because all people who have money are bad people and all people who get access to this kind of power are terrible. Don't you just want to be what Van just said? Don't you just want to have your family

and your nice little job and stay where you are and watch the menu and feel like, well, thank God I didn't get blown up on a restaurant Island because I'm a good guy. And I coach my son's little league team. And that's a little galaxy brain, but not that galaxy brain. Like there is something to continuously telling stories like the great Gatsby about how the wealthiest people are the biggest frauds or the most unhappy or the biggest charlatans or what have you and as you go through time like you never there are no good stories about like the perfectly you know balanced thoughtful good father who also happens to have 300 billion dollars all those people are bad yeah and that's interesting i mean and i think power does corrupt and i think money does corrupt i believe in that i've seen i've witnessed it happen

but there's something notable about when all of these like something like this becomes popular and people celebrate it culturally but then what are the internalized takeaways from something like this which is like maybe i'm just good where i am maybe i shouldn't try to dominate my space so lest i turn out like edward norton and glass onion you know what i mean but are you then rejecting that takeaway? You're going back around on it? I don't know. Maybe I should be like Edward Norton and Glass Onion

because the people who make movies and the rich people are making these movies to try to keep you in your podcasting job? It goes back to my journalism training. Okay, here's the thing. First day of undergrad and college, I went to J school at Ithaca College., media literacy is the first class that I took. Yeah. And I took it with an incredible woman and she put just Chomsky, McChesney, all these people,

all those books in my hand, you know, understand semiotics, understand Marshall McLuhan, understand the way that the media is projecting at you. And she's like, do not ever think for a minute that when someone tells you that the news media is liberal, that. And she's like, do not ever think for a minute that when someone tells you that the news media is liberal, that they have any idea what the fuck they're talking about. You want to know why? Because that company

that broadcasts that TV show is owned by a massive global billion dollar corporation. And it is impossible for anything that is produced by a massive global corporation to ever be quote unquote liberal. Now-

Fucking tell them, Sean. We can- I'm serious. Can we turn this just into we can, we can, I'm serious. Can we turn this just into media literacy? The podcast? I'm ready. We can debate that point. Right.

And there were certainly 19 year olds in that class who were big mad about the way that they were deeply liberal professors. But, you know, it's a, it's a resonant line of thought. And I love the movies and I love Hollywood and I love the big business of Hollywood. And I love talking about all this stuff. I think it's all very entertaining. It satisfies some primal, lame synapse in my mind. Yeah.

But when I see like a trend like this, it kind of conjures that professor in college who's like, don't trust this because you're getting punked. And that might be something that came alive in me while watching Triangle of Sadness. And so I might be resisting it a little bit because I'm like, eat the rich, really? What about be the rich and then just take control of your life?

What about be the rich? What about be the rich? That's the song. Be the rich. Can't forget that. Sean Finnessy, be the rich. Back to Babylon. Manny in Babylon

is the most virtuous character in the movie until he makes a guy put blackface that's right yeah so all of these you know like what we're talking about is what you would be willing to do to get what it is that you want yeah and then there's the question at the end of triangle of sadness really and this is the great thing about a well-crafted character obviously you don't want her to but you're thinking should she kill her they can't obviously live on the island forever can they though like what her life will now this was three weeks or probably not three weeks or a week or whatever it was of her actually mattering. Yeah.

Can she go back? And the emotional hesitance that the viewer has right there tells me that the movie works. And it also kind of taps into something human inside of you, which is what would you be willing to do? Which is the question that we're asking. You think, Sean says, be the rich. I don't say be the rich, but I thought, should it be be the rich?

Right. I mean, it at least crossed my mind. Right, of course. And so that to me is why the movie is successful in the end is because it spends an entire great deal of time deriding one specific type of existence. And then it makes you like identify with it. I was kind of like,

and until she said the line about you can come work for me after this, I was like, damn, this sucks for her. Then I'm like, nah, man, hit her with the rock.

Like hit her with the rock. So let's, let's close with that. Okay. If you haven't seen this movie, I can't believe you're still listening. Thank you for her. Then I'm like, nah, man, hit her with the rock. Like, hit her with the rock. So let's close with that. Okay. If you haven't seen this movie, I can't believe you're still listening. Thank you for that. What do you think happens? What does the ending mean?

What transpired? What was your interpretation of it? I don't think there's supposed to be an answer. I think that... Well, what do you think, Amanda Dobbins? I mean,

I don't know. I think in the heightened crazy world of the movie, she probably does go for it. And so where is Harris Dickinson running? Has he seen her slain on the beach? I think he's running towards her because he heard her scream. Yeah. I agree.

Is that overtly understood to be the interpretation? Probably not. It's like a Tony Soprano type of dude. scream yeah i agree because maybe is that overtly understood to be the interpretation probably not it's like a tony soprano type of deal right he could also be running because he's like seeing what's about to happen yeah he's trying to stop it yeah yeah he kind of figured out oh they went on a hike together this is there's been some animus like let me go and i have a bad feeling you think dolly de leon killed charlbyeron's character? Yeah, I do. Yeah. I think, but it's like a, you know, it's like a weird, it's like a, yeah,

like I think she did. I think she hit her. She smashed her face. She's not the Incredible Hulk, so she probably couldn't kill her. I think the lady's screaming. Maybe there's a standoff. Maybe she doesn't die, but he's running to help.

Heartwarming. Be the Rich, Saw Fantasy. This movie's nominated for Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Original Screenplay. So you need all movies to be heartwarming be the rich song fantasy this movie's nominated for best picture best director and best original screenplay so you need all movies to be heartwarming

like the end of Babylon is that what that's what the problem is shit Babylon Manny came back and yeah lovely wife and son

man they wrote the bus to LA like Manny came back they're standing outside of Paramount and he I just always and this is the thing that your man is good at, bro. Sitting there close up, somebody really thinking about the life that they could have had.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. His life really walked into the shadows of that alley. That's what really happened. Yeah. Take us back to Andrew Neiman looking at pictures of Buddy Rich on his wall in Whiplash. Think back to the closing moments of La La Land, the silhouette and the story of what their life could have been. Think back to First Man.

Gaze between two lovers. One's seen a foreign land. One's living inside a foreign land in their own mind. How far apart and how close are they really? One of the great enders of movies of our lifetime damien chazelle i'm so glad we got to this point here in this conversation and all we had to do to get there was watch sami's twins fuck somebody in an underground dungeon in the valley so what a pity that movie was nominated um any just stray movie thoughts you this is your last chance

nah man just um it's a good year for movies yeah i thought so too yeah i thought it was a good year What a pity that movie wasn't nominated. Any just stray movie thoughts? This is your last chance. Nah, man. Just, it was a good year for movies. Yeah, I thought so too. Yeah, I thought it was a good year for movies. Like, not perfect year, but a good year for movies.

Any stray thoughts for you? I'm pro movies. Where are you at on being rich? Seems nice. Nice work if you can get it. It does seem nice. Yeah.

Maybe we'll speak more about that in the future. Hey, thanks, Van. No problem. Higher learning. Midnight Boys. Midnight Boys. What else you doing? Everything, nice work if you can get it it does seem nice yeah maybe we'll speak more about that in the future hey thanks Van no problem higher learning Midnight Boys Midnight Boys what else you doing

everything but you know you guys will find out okay yeah thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work

on this episode later this week on the big picture very normal episode coming up we will be reviewing the movie Cocaine Bear which is

certainly a film that is different from the ones we've discussed here today we will see you then.