The Big Picture - ‘Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness’ Is Here!

Episode Date: May 6, 2022

It’s one of the year’s most anticipated movies, the first MCU entry of 2022, and the first movie in almost 10 years from the great Sam Raimi. Joanna Robinson and Chris join Sean for a non-spoiler conversation, followed by a spoiler-filled breakdown of the new ‘Doctor Strange’ film. Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Joanna Robinson and Chris Ryan Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The goal? Explain the 1990s in exactly 60 songs. The result? We did it. I'm Rob Arvilla. I host 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, which has, indeed, covered 60 fantastic songs thus far from Tupac, to Radiohead, to TLC. So let's do 30 more. Let's do 90 songs. No, we're not changing the name. More rad songs. more special guests, more astute critical analysis, more loopy nostalgic exuberance. That's 60 songs that explain the 90s every Wednesday, only on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness. it's one of the year's most anticipated movies the first mcu entry of 2022 and the first movie in almost 10 years from the great sam ramey joining me for a two-part discussion of this movie chris ryan and joanna

robinson let's dig into the 28th installment in the marvel Cinematic Universe. First half of this pod, non-spoilers. Second half of this pod, spoilers. We will demarcate for you clearly when we will be spoiling some of the conversation around the second Doctor Strange movie. Chris, how are you? I'm doing great. 28? 28 of these.

Wow. Yeah. Joe, 28. You've seen all 28? How many times have you seen all 28? Some more than others. Doctor Strange 1 is not one that I often revisit, but please don't ask me my Winter Soldier stats because I refuse to disclose them. One little wrinkle on this pod is that Chris Ryan and I are together in person in a studio.

Yeah, at the Spotify building. Sierra, how are you feeling? I'm good. It's going to take us a little while to shake off the cobwebs. We're being really polite to one another, and I need that to kind of dissipate. Oh, Christopher, it's so nice to see you. Hey, Sean. Thanks. Oh, hey.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, we're just full Sarah Koenig. Joe, you do what you do. You do what you've been doing for years in the cozy, calm fun of your own home. Sean, thanks for asking me, and that's a great point. All right, let's talk about Doctor Strange. What I'm going to do is i'm going to read a brief summary of this film's plot but not too much of its plot so as not to spoil the people who are eager to see

it so in the aftermath of the blip remember the blip how can i forget the avengers film the second most important thing after the sokovia accords that's true and then the defeat of thanos at the hands of the avengers stephen strange is re-acclimating the life here in this movie. He's not the Sorcerer Supreme anymore. Still a master of the mystic arts. Crucial hero in our world living in New York City. After his time,

I guess he was in Catman Do in the original Doctor Strange film and then he was dust for five years during the blip. The world's kind of moved on without him. You know,

his love life is in shambles. He's trying to figure out what to do with all of his magic. His former flame, Christine Palmer, is getting married. And the movie essentially opens with him at the wedding. And then stuff begins to happen. A giant octopus terrorizes the city. And then we're off on our adventure. Ultimately, this is leading to a confrontation of sorts with Wanda Maximoff, who we know has become the Scarlet Witch at the end of the WandaVision series and plays a huge role in this film.

And the movie, of course, being directed by Raimi, it was pitched as not just a little bit of a change of pace in terms of being a horror movie, but also as a critical movie in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It felt like there was something essential happening in this story after a few standalone films. You know, we had a Black

Widow origin story. We had Eternals, which seemed to be happening almost literally in another universe. We've had stories that have not felt as central to our core heroes. So this feels like it could be a return. I was surprised to find that it wasn't necessarily a total return.

Jo, I'll start with you. What did you think of Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness? I mean, I think Chris has the best take on this one, and it's one that I've been stealing to give to other people. So don't give me your good material, Chris. But, yeah, I liked it, I think, more than a lot of people that I know who saw it liked it. And I think what essentially stood out for me is that I was surprised by how much horror there actually was. We'll get into some of the production story behind this, but the fact that Scott Derrickson left. The rumor was that he left because he wasn't allowed to do as much horror as he wanted. I since found out that that

was not true of false narratives, something else in the mix there. But the fact that they got to go full horror really in a Marvel movie and that they got to go full Raimi to a certain degree, at least in some stretches of the movie, really surprised me and delighted me. So I've got some story quibbles, some, some large-ish story quibbles, but in terms of like an experience in the theater, I had, I kind of had a blast, honestly. So that's where I am. Chris, I saw this film with you. I wouldn't say you looked like you were having a blast. What'd you think of the movie? I had too many raisinets. So I was like, I think now that I'm back in theaters, I just like forgot, like, just have a couple.

So, no, I had a really, I enjoyed myself in the theater. I would say that the best parts of this movie are among some of my favorite moments in any Marvel movie. And then the worst parts of this movie are, I don't think, up to Sam Raimi's standards as a filmmaker, and frankly, not up to this franchise's standards as movies. But I would always take a movie that tried something, and failed occasionally, but really tried something, than one that's just vanilla, okay, hey, here's another hero, here's his origin story, his parents, blah, blah, blah. And then like kind of a big monster fight at the end. And that's the end. I guess that sounds like I'm talking about Shang-Chi. I sort of am.

But like, I feel like I would rather have something that really took a swing and missed than something that just like only was looking for a single. Yeah, the swing here is obviously that this is effectively a full-blown horror comedy by the end of the movie. There's that very delicate combination of outlandish, almost slapstick humor with authentically scary set pieces that Raimi is the master of. The movie does eventually get to that sweet spot of, as you said, Joe, like basically letting Raimi do Raimi.

It took a long time to get to that point. And I will say, through the first hour of the movie, I found myself thinking, is this the worst Marvel movie I've ever seen? And I really didn't like a couple of the most recent Marvel films. Joe, you and I talked about Eternals. Shang-Chi, I thought, was very similarly... It was sort of inverted.

The first hour of Shang-Chi, I thought, was kind of great. Then the second hour, I thought, was a little wonky. This movie is tricky because it almost felt like one filmmaker got fired halfway through production of the film. And then as soon as the film turned to this kind of gothic horror homage story that became much more centered on the Wanda character than on the Strange character, it found like it clicked into place in a way. But through the first hour, I was like, do we have to have a very unfortunate conversation about the state of Marvel? And then I came out of this film ultimately feeling like this was more of a standalone story than I expected. And it was a lot of fun. And I'm glad and I agree with you, Chris, that I'm glad that they tried something

that is a little bit off the beaten path. How did it meet your expectations, Joanna? Did you see this as like a big important movie in the Marvel series? It's so funny. I guess I wasn't paying attention to the fact that a lot of people were seeing this as the next big tentpole in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I think that maybe comes back to my feelings around Strange, who I don't, has never really worked for me as an extraordinary Marvel cinematic character. So I don't have massive expectations for a strange movie in general, but, you know, talking to other people, hearing multiverse of madness as the subtitle,

the rumors that were swirling around that we won't even touch until we get to the spoiler section. Like all that sort of stuff, I think had people, their expectations ramped up really high. And mine, again, maybe it's a facet of knowing too much,

knowing the fact that this, as you say it, the fact that this movie feels like it was directed by almost two different people. There's so much behind the scenes chaos behind this movie in terms of like Derrickson and cargo leaving, um, Waldron and Ramey scrambling to make it the release order,

releasing it after no Way Home, after WandaVision. Like this is supposed to come before WandaVision. And the fact that Raimi said in a recent Rolling Stone interview that he didn't even know the ending of the movie until halfway through making it. So how can you make a coherent movie under those circumstances? And so the plot, you know, the plot is hard to wrap your arms around. And I think when I say I had a blast, it was like getting swept away in the fact that Raimi actually got to do some Raimi.

So I don't know if I just answered your expectations question. I don't think they were as high as some people had their expectations. The thing that saves this movie aside from the Raimi horror aspects is the fact that it is essentially a two-hour chase. I mean, it never really stops moving from location to location. And I kind of appreciated the breakneck pace because I sometimes find the side quest element of a lot of contemporary franchise movies, like even Star Wars ones, where it's like in Rogue One. In my mind, I remember that being like this amazing film. And it is, but there are a lot of like,

we have to go to this planet to get this one mineral, which will allow us to unlock the key to do this. You know, and it's like, well, is that like a story or is that like a video game board? You know, like am I just trying to get past a big boss? With this movie though, I don't know when you want to talk about the first hour and how deep into it you want to get.

I think we can give some sketch. I mean, you know, essentially the movie starts almost in media res. Which I loved. Yeah, I thought that was a really great way to jump us back into it. And very quickly we see Strange battling a giant octopus that I guess is Shuma-Gorath that has never not been confirmed. But presumably that's the giant kind of Cyclops-esque figure in the Marvel Cinematic, in the Marvel Universe. And that giant octopus is in pursuit of a young woman who we come to learn is America Chavez. And America Chavez is not from Strange's

Universe. She's from a completely different universe. And she becomes a critical figure in the telling of this story. I don't think we're really ruining anything for anybody by saying this. But what it does is it opens literally a portal to jumping from multiversal experiences. And then that changes really the shape of the movie. And it was not until we got through that first hour of kind of overheated exposition

and explanation about what was going on, what needed to be solved, what was at risk for all the sorcerers in the world, what it was that Wanda Maximoff really wanted, and how America fits into this story. Once we got through all of that, which felt like just a lot of deck clearing, it turned into the Raimi movie that turned out to be a lot of fun. I don't know, from there, what do you want to say? About the first hour? I think it's worth noting

that it just literally looks like a different film. So the opening sequences really do look like Atlanta Backlot, kind of, and it has that much maligned Marvel color palette where it's like the sky is blue ish, you know? And I had to admit, Joe,

I don't know if you had this experience, Sean and I actually were like, did they finish the VFX? Like there were a couple of green screen shots that like felt very like this was rushed to be completed. And I do wonder whether that had something to do with matching no way home with, uh, or just a Spider-Man, Spider-Man Homecoming and Spider-Man and then WandaVision.

And there's even references in that first hour to Hawkeye, I think, to the show Hawkeye and referring to his mohawk. So it feels like that was almost stitched in to match up with the chronology and the narrative sort of coming out of the TV shows that have been happening for the last two years. Yeah, and I wonder if everything that you outlined there, Joanna, is part of what makes this movie more incidental than crucial is the fact that they've had to shift it around the release schedule

and that we had to change a filmmaker and so all of these different things. I mean, did you have a first hour, second hour feeling as well? Didn't feel as disjointed as that to me, but I do know that ramey has said that like there were certain shots he just again like you sean you and i talked about this before before the movie we were talking about whether or not we thought the movie would be good right

and you were like well i'm excited for ramey to be ramey if he can be and i've said ramey's on a pre-apology tour for this movie where he's like out there kind of disavowing it gently in the press and um and one of thoseavowing it gently in the press. And one of those things that he said in the Rolling Stone interview was like, there were a lot of shots that he had to settle for like the mid tier version of because they were just scrambling and going. And so I wonder if that's like why a lot of the first part suffered for that. And then a lot of the more, the flare, the Raimi flare that we see in the last is him actually getting the shots that he wants to do in some of these sequences.

I know they did massive reshoots as well. And so some of that stuff like really early on a conversation between that's in the trailers, a conversation between Wanda and Strange in an orchard. There's some like ADR in there. There's just like some stuff going on where it's just like it feels like they're impossibly trying to fit puzzle pieces together like i don't envy them this task though they've kind of set themselves up this way by telling all these interconnected stories and trying to make tv shows flow into movies and not only that but movies at one studio marvel flow into a movie from another studio sony when they don't have control like they had no control over pushing back No Way Home to make it flow after Strange because Sony's like, no, we're going to hit our release date.

Like we are not beholden to your juggled schedule. So then they have to sort of reconfigure their whole movie to come after that. And so I am not at all surprised that it is as wobbly as it is storytelling wise because of all those logistics. Does that make sense? It does.

It's a tricky moment in Marvel in general because there is just so much to navigate and to connect because they've made this commitment to telling essentially a long serialized story. And that raises a couple of different conversation points, I think, maybe for once we get into our spoiler conversation about where some of these things are leading to and maybe how my brain has been trained in a negative way as I watch some of these movies as opposed to enjoying them for what they are. You know, the second hour, we're not spoiling anything to say that when we say like, what is true Raimi? What does it mean that Raimi gets to do Raimi? It means literally that he gets to use his filmic storytelling style. So, snap zooms and circle wipes and the shaky cam first-person POV that you remember

from Evil Dead 2 or, you know, the kind of like antic creature work that he's known for from stuff like Army of Darkness. Dolly-esque imagery, yeah.

Yeah. The idea of the dream sequence through the Raimi state of mind. Using ancient books to control powers is, of course, like a trope in a lot of his stories. So in many ways, it's very clear why he was hired after Derrickson moved off the

project. And he does get to do a lot of that stuff. He does get to utilize his sense of humor. It is a little bit scary at times, you know, relative to some of the absolutely awful shit that Chris and I watch on a regular basis. I wouldn't say it's like actually scary. No, sure. But there's like actually scary. No, sure. But there's like jump scares. There are jump scares. Has there ever been a jump scare in a Marvel movie?

Not that I can tell. There's a legitimate slasher movie scene, which is awesome. But it's like there is a moment where you're like, oh, the killer is coming.

Right. And someone asked me if it was gory. And I was like, I'm not sure if it's gory. We see some like blood drips or whatever. I don't know if it's gore, but it's tense. Yeah.

Yeah. Compared to like a Saw movie, it's not anything. But, you know. There are some superhero kills that I would say in the realm are like unusually, like they're sort of funny gory. You know, they're so ridiculous and they're so kind of explosive in a way that it's on a completely different playing field. And, you know, like what directors in the Marvel world get to do is an ongoing conversation that we've had. And it's easy for us to say, well, you know, they empowered Ryan Coogler. They empowered Taika Waititi.

There are a handful of people who've been able to put their thumbprint on this series. But, Joe, you've always been very smart about saying, like, you know, this is tightly managed. There are always a lot of reshoots. Chronology and linearity are really important to the ongoing structure of this stuff. I'm curious, like, at what point Raimi just kind of felt like,

you know, as long as I can get Bruce Campbell in my movie, as long as I can get a couple of gags with skeletons, as long as I can get a slasher-seeminging sequence, like I'm kind of happy with where this is going. Cause when you say gently disavow Joanna, like what I heard was a guy saying like, I did my best. You know what I mean? Like I took the job and I did my absolute best. And for me, that's enough. I mean, he hasn't made a movie in nine years. So I love that we got to see that. I wonder how the movie going public at

large will react to a totally different tone. Well, I want to talk about, actually, I was going to throw to you, Chris, because I want to talk about letting Raimi, I have a theory about why Raimi got to be Raimi

more than a lot of other Marvel directors do. But, Chris, I want, because I heard Sean talk about this with Adam on the podcast earlier this week, I was curious, like,

what your relationship with Raimi is, like, what your Raimi origin story is. It's mostly as, it goes back to like early Coen brothers and like their kind of relationship to him and that brand of antic genre filmmaking that has DIY elements where they're like you know what we don't really have a crane so let's put like the camera on a two by four and swing it on a swing across the room. And that to me is really energizing. I think my taste in horror leans more towards,

um, brutally real. Then, then, Oh, it's goofy. These guys are coming out of the ground. It's like more like,

Nope, these guys are in your house. Uh, we can talk about that with my therapist or whatever, but that's that. Rami is a funny game. It's funny games. therapist or whatever, but that's, that Rami is a funny game. It's funny games. It's strangers,

but a green room. Like I think I respect Rami more than I love him. So I, I respect the, the, what he does more than I like dial up evil dead a lot. I think I want it to ask. So here's my,

here's my, my bit is that it, I, I imagine director bullshit entered the Marvel universe with the Russos. Right. So when they start making these movies is when we start hearing, well, it's going to be a paranoid thriller that I mentioned. It's going to be like parallax view or three days of the condor.

And that's, and that's winter soldier or whatever. And that, that's when these sort of like, I think this idea of straightforward marvel movie but with like references or at least even an extra textual reference from the filmmakers or writers being like well we're drawing from apocalypse now so and that kind of adding this the flip side of that is when the russos were tv directors you know like they weren't like

these auteurs yet. And then when you flip it and you're like, no, we're working with Raimi and Chloe Zhao and like these, like, I guess, Kugler, like high end filmmakers.

It's almost like they bring their cinematic qualities to the movie and it, they have a harder time getting it through the Marvel machine than it would be for like a workman TV kind of background person to then kind of maybe extend it to a cinematic end. I don't know if this is making any sense. It is. Let me just expand on the idea because I think you're right and what we're seeing right now

is Marvel trying to adapt to broadening its purview of who is an acceptable director in their universe. But if you go back to the earliest days, if you look at Captain America, the first Avenger, Joe Johnson. Sure.

Joe Johnson basically just remade the Rocketeer. I mean, that's really what they, they sought him out for that film to capture his style, his tone, his essence. That just happened to be very agreeable to the studio at that time. The same is true of Kenneth Branagh doing Thor.

Kenneth Branagh, they were like, we need a kind of epic, mythic story, Shakespearean story, someone who knows how to tell these grand tales with this kind of fusty dialogue. And so they were always kind of casting into those parts. I think what we're seeing now is, you know, Chloe Zhao is like a way more transgressive and unusually unique filmmaker for their style. So watching her kind of smash her head against the machine, I think was interesting. Raimi's probably somewhere in the middle, right?

Because he's a director with a true style. He's somebody who basically like invented a sub-genre of movies. And there's this, you know, cohort of people that follow him, myself included, who are just so interested in everybody who came after him and how basically no one can do specifically what it is that he does. So when you plug him into this system, it's funny to see the collision. The collision is really more like when you're in the yada yada phase. And all of these movies have the yada yada phase where we're like, here's the plot engine.

Here's the person who's most essential to it. Here's the person who you think is the villain, but isn't. And actually, here's the real villain. That happens in a lot of these films. It's just interesting. And I don't know. Most people that go see this movie are not going to have the 92-minute conversation about whether Sam Raimi got to do what he wants. Most people don't know who Sam Raimi is.

But I think most people will be like, this movie is two different movies. I wonder about that. I think even an 11-year-old would be like, it was bright in the beginning and now it's scary. Okay. So on the director front, I it's really a really interesting conversation I think what's true is that there were like three or four main phases not not just phase four of of the Marvel world like when they first start right they're this scrappy nobody actually believes in us including our own company sort of thing and Favreau gets to make an indie movie essentially

like that's what Iron Man is right and then the machine comes into play and you get you start to get these plug and play directors like i think the russos or like a peyton reed or an alan taylor are directors that are just going to come in and like with love and respect to the russos and peyton reed maybe a little less alan taylor like you know but they're just gonna do they're gonna you know they're gonna take the previs that have been like that of a of a movie that is oftentimes made for them before they even come on to the project and just sort of go from there Anna Boden Ryan Fleck who are great independent filmmakers do you do you see their fingerprints on Captain Marvel at all? Not at all. Not at all. It may be like Brie Larson's t-shirts is the most indie cool thing.

I thought of them while watching this movie, Joanna, where I was like, this is, Raimi won some fights in the making of this movie. And I felt like they lost a lot of fights while watching Captain Marvel. And the moment that that became an issue for film you know film twitter people or stuff like that is the visible exit of edgar wright like edgar wright leaving because he couldn't make the ant-man that he wanted to make then the narrative becomes oh marvel doesn't let its directors do anything that they want to do at all like they don't want an edgar wright who doesn't want an edgar wright movie like you know why are you why are you doing And like, what's also true is you've got these writer directors like Whedon, Taika and Coogler are all like writer directors.

But when you're talking about a director with like, this is what Sean said. When you're talking about a director with an actual distinctive visual flair, I think Raimi is the first with like, you know, cause you can feel Taika in, in Ragnarok. Right. But like in terms of visual flair, outside of the Marvel playbook, Raimi is the first one I think ever to get to do with it. And my theory is part of that is because Feige,

like part of it is Marvel wanted to bust that reputation that they weren't allowing directors to do what they wanted, which I think is why you get a Coogler and a YTD sort of, um, projects, but also Feige came up on the set of Spider-Man learning from Sam Raimi. Like when I interviewed him talking about his origins,

he's like, I learned everything from watching Sam Raimi make Spider-Man and like how Sam Raimi talked about feeling at the end of Spider-Man is how I want to feel at the end of all my movies, which is a deflated balloon. at the end of all my movies which is a deflated balloon I put everything into it now I'm a deflated balloon and that's how I feel and so when it comes like when he when he is in a bind Derrickson is gone they're on a schedule and he calls up Sam Raimi who he's known since his earliest days and that process happened so fast I'm so sorry you asked me on we're supposed to talk about the movie and I'm like talking about process.

No, this is important. But this is really, and we're also seeing the same thing happen on the Fast movie. You know what I mean? Like we're seeing this happen more and more, you know, like the Star Wars movies have had multiple like complete creative teardowns

and rebuilds sometimes in mid-production. You know, it's like. Yeah. This question of can an artist be an artist in a machine like this, you know, but like the idea that you hire Michael Waldron off of like they pulled him off of Loki to crash this movie together. They hired Sam Raimi in a weekend, you know, and then he's like, a Bowdoin and Fleck who are, you know, for all the respect that they have for the films they made before this are still young and new and possibly easily steered in one direction or another. Do you know?

Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on like, you know, you're exactly right, Sean. Like, does anybody care that there was a director replacement? Will people care if you told them there are moments in this movie where Benedict Cumberbatch probably didn't know what scene he was doing, like where it would go? Is this going to be in WandaVision? Is this going to be in a movie six months from now? Am I doing a reshoot?

Is this in the middle of the movie, at the end of the movie, at the beginning? Like, if you have, like, these sort of possibly antiquated ideas of a tour director, you know, a screenwriter with a vision for the story, and performers who are all

really invested in the process and are working to develop these characters and have an arc of where this character starts, goes, and ends, that's not this. Now, that, and ends. That's not this. Now, that doesn't mean that they're not, A, the biggest thing in the world, because they are, and B, not entertaining, because they usually are.

But I do think that the more scrutiny that they get and the more attention that they get, the more people ask questions like, is this popcorn or is there anything here? If these are going to be the new Westerns, what are the top line ones? are the elite superhero movies and i think that's why we ask these kind of questions about like you know what what does the ramey gets two years to make this version of dr strange look like rather than ramey going down to atlanta on a weekend and being like

i'll do the best i can well it also raises some interesting questions by casting someone like ramey who doesn't just have that experience that Joanna's talking about with Feige and that backstory, but who is a director who has a lot of visual style and has a tone, but is not necessarily a filmmaker of ideas. And then maybe the difference between him and

someone like Kugler or Taika or Chloe Zhao is that those are directors who bring a worldview, who bring a kind of ethical compass to a lot of the movies that they make. You know, I thought particularly like what's understated, at least among some people about Black Panther is like Black Panther is one of the only superhero movies ever

that is like genuinely probing its audience about an important question in our existence, which is sort of like, do we stay inside and close together and stick with our own? Or do we expand into the world at large and try to be better and be bigger inside the world? That's an authentic, that goes well before Teddy Roosevelt. You know what I mean?

There's a lot of historical context around the ideas exploring there. Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness is a romp. You know, it's a genre movie. It's a fun movie. I thought it was a lot of fun. I think that there are probably some things about the Wanda character that you could say are attempting to probe our psyche or the way that we think about how we live our lives. But, you know, this is just a superhero horror movie. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I like that we're getting those. But it is also an interesting, I don't know if it's attention necessarily, but it differentiates, I think, some of the filmmakers that have come before. This is a for hire job from a very veteran filmmaker who has a clear style, who has been entrusted with, I guess, a second tier hero who is becoming a first tier hero due to other people contracting out of their roles as first tier heroes. Yeah. I mean, it's no accident, I think, that Cumberbatch is styled and behaves a lot like Tony Stark, right? Absolutely. I mean, what's interesting is that that's who Strange is in the comics. And when they made Tony Stark initially, Tony Stark, as Downey plays him, is not Tony Stark in the comics, which I have no problem with.

But basically, they stole a bunch of Strange stuff and gave it to Tony to begin with. Honestly, that's why I think Infinity War is my favorite because you've got Strange and Stark bouncing off of each other in a way that I think is the best Strange stuff we've seen. That's the most I've enjoyed that version of the character is in that film. But I do think, yeah, when they seeded inott lang and stephen strange they did it at a time when they saw the end of the first arc of their heroes right coming and they're trying to seed in the next generation of who will lead um our stories going forward let's get benedict hammerbatch and paul rudd in here to sort of start to lead the banner let's get brie larson in here etc and you know that's that's the-Endgame is like, will it feel as big

without those original heroes that we glommed onto? Well, let's use that as an entree to talk about the performances a little bit before we dig into some of the spoilers. So, you know, Cumberbatch coming off an Academy Award nomination, probably one of the 20 or 25 most relevant leading figures in Hollywood movies.

I think he's a, I always thought he was a good strange. I thought he made a little bit more sense in the Scott Derrickson vision of strange, which was a little bit more Christopher Nolan inspired, not quite as antic and quippy. I think Cumberbatch is fine at that, but when he was more in the Sherlock zone,

that felt a little bit more comfortable than somebody who had to basically share screen time with Bruce Campbell. Anything legitimate, like noticeably different about what he's doing in this movie than the strange he's been in the past? Just how much point guard he has to play and how much he has to move through scenes and be like

talking to Soshi Gomez or talking to Wanda or talking to Chilis Aljafor and kind of like moving the plot along. Like they're not, they try to make the Christine thing, like this romance that has haunted him across realities. But I mean, if I don't, you don't mind me saying like, there's just no chemistry between the two of them. So it's a problem in the first movie. Yeah. Like I think that his job is essentially just to like, kind of be charming while we move through the movie well we'll get into you know some spoiler stuff but it's it

opens with christine's wedding and this whole idea of like this regret that he has and it's it's a it's a big part and i it feels like it's built on air because christine is like barely in the first movie and i don't understand we're supposed to be like oh no christine's getting married to someone else i'm just like i don't remember. I think we're supposed to be like, oh no, Christine's getting married to someone else. And I'm just like, I don't remember this character at all. Like, honestly. Aside from her being a doctor, what else do we know about her? Nothing. I mean, that was a big complaint I had about the first movies. I was like, how do you have Rachel McAdams and this is what you do with her? You know what I mean? So they, to their credit, try to do much more with her in this movie, but it feels like,

yeah, it's a continued, you know, we're not talking about Pepper and Tony. We're talking about Christine and Steven, I guess. And then to that Tony Stark. And I think they were going for a Spider-Man, Tom Holland, Downey, kid and strange vibe. And I can understand why they thought it might work. Because if you've seen Benedict Cumberbatch and Tom Holland, I don't know if you remember this, but like Tom Holland, when they did the press junket circuit for, he was always spoiling things. So they gave him,

they literally gave him a babysitter in the form of Benedict Cumberbatch. So Tom Holland was, you will not find a Tom Holland interview for infinity war without Benedict Cumberbatch sitting right next to him being like, ah, you know, and they have like a great, really cute chemistry there.

And it does not translate to the America Strange relationship in this movie. This is secretly a Scarlet Witch movie. And I think many people sussed that out when they even saw the teaser for it at the end of No Way Home. Elizabeth Wilson, interesting figure in the world of acting to me. Obviously, the sibling of an extraordinarily famous twin duo. She kind of hit the scene in independent films and then very quickly got

subsumed into the MCU and has almost entirely been working as Wanda. She's super good in... Is it Martha, Marcy, May, Marlene? She's great in Wind River. She did a Facebook show? She abandoned the Sheridan verse for the MCU, and I've never forgiven her.

Joanna, what did you think of The Scarlet Witch? I'm going to say my main Wanda thoughts for the spoiler section, but I think that I love Elizabeth Olsen in this role, and I think she does a lot with some, some challenging story. And honestly, the film benefits from the fact that I could watch her just sort of like glare hauntingly at the camera and I'd be pretty satisfied. Honestly,

I think, I think she's really good at that. So what did you, what did you think? I think that she's had a pretty raw deal throughout the MCU in terms of how her character was introduced. And then I don't think she's helped by the fact that you do have to have seen WandaVision to understand what is happening in this film with her.

That being said, there are moments in this movie where I think she's the best villain Marvel's ever had. Agreed. I think that there are a couple of moments where there's also some of the best acting that I've seen in some of these movies from her.

And I always liked her as an actress, but I don't know that I ever considered her in a class above third tier character. When she's like, that doesn't seem fair.

Like that kind of like when she's kind of talking to Strange and it's in the trailer. So it's like... The head tilt? Yeah. That's like, she's good. She's got some stuff. it's like when the head tilt yeah yeah that's like

she's good she's got some stuff yeah really good for a genre villain that's why i mean this is off brand for the ringer which i think has universally decided that loki is the best marvel tv show but that's why wanda vision's my number one i think she's extraordinary in that show because she's so good at matching the tones of all the sitcom era stuff that they asked her to do. And then when it comes to the drama and the pathos, crush that too. So I just, I think she, like, that's an amazing acting showcase, that show. And, you know, I do not begrudge Kate Winslet her Emmy, but I was happy to see that she was seriously in the conversation that year for the best performance on television.

Like she's incredible in that show. So yeah, this film, I will say, I think this is a non-spoiler thing to say. I would have preferred some modulation for her character. I think there's even more she could have done in this movie. Xochitl Gomez plays a character that I'm not familiar with. I think there's more she even more she could have done in this in this movie. Yeah. So she tell Gomez plays a character that I'm not familiar with. The America Chavez came after my comic book reading generation. You know, she's notable for being, I think, the first queer Latina character in MCU.

I wouldn't say that the movie makes a lot of hay out of that fact. There's very little origin about this character is There's very little development of this character. She's really more of like a hostage than anything else in the film. I did think that Gomez had some stuff. You know, she had a charisma that you could see why she was cast and she is like making the best of it. But I completely agree with what you're saying, Joanna,

which is that they're really trying to jerry-rig this Spidey and Iron Man thing out of this relationship that I don't think totally worked. But I suspect that we'll see a lot more of her in the future. I think, I don't know if they would ever have made this, and maybe they're planning to, or maybe it'll be a show. I like the idea that she's someone whose powers are controlled by her fear, like we're basically triggered by her fears.

So there's something kind of awesome with like, I can bend reality when I'm scared. And also I'm in a Sam Raimi movie, so I'm going to be scared a lot. Like there could be a lot of neat stuff happening there and they do a little bit. But she's kind of an example of a latter day Marvel problem I've been having,

which is like, I don't understand the powers that people have anymore. Like Captain Marvel was the first time where I'm like, so you're just, like, you just do everything. You can just do it all, right? Like, you can fly through a spaceship or whatever. You can make the case that this is a problem of this movie, is that the Scarlet Witch and Doctor Strange are too powerful

to be contained in one movie. Yeah. Facing off against each other. We're just, like, we're really getting into witch talk. Well, first of all, I would do a whole podcast on witch talk, but also,

that's always been a problem with Wanda and with Vision is they were always way too overpowered for any fight that they were in. So they often had to like figure out ways to sideline them out of a fight

because Wanda can bend reality to her will. so how do you fight that at all and then but but strange could just be like i threw a box over that reality so we're good it was always very funny as an x-men reader because you know scarlet witch was more involved in that storyline in the world where she's magneto's daughter and the idea of like wolverine who has claws and like strength and that's it, battling someone like the Scarlet Witch is always ridiculous. But this is the hand that these characters are dealt in the movies. America Chavez's character, who's a fun character in the books, and can punch holes in the multiverse, in a star-shaped hole to the multiverse.

That's her main power, right? That she can move around the multiverse. And a big question in this movie is, how do you get to the multiverse that's her like main power right that she can move around the multiverse and a big question in this movie is like how do you get from one multiverse to another fun fact in terms of like the out of order stuff she was supposed to be in no way home and because they couldn't put her in no way home that's why like ned has like the sling ring powers in no way home because like she was supposed to be the one punching holes in the multiverse to make things happen. To bring the Peters in. Can I ask a little bit of a novice question about this? Is the quantum realm kind of like the local roads version of the multiverse?

Or is that like the on-ramp to the multiverse? Like when they're jumping around in Ant-Man and he's like, I shrunk myself and I went to go find my wife. Yeah. I mean, Joanna, you have a PhD in quantum physics. So why don't you answer that one? Like what's the connection between those two things? Anything?

I don't think so. Okay. Just making sure. Glad you asked. I don't think so. And what's even more confusing is the TVA in Loki is in a nowhere space. Gotcha. That's a no realm.

Oh, sure. Which is, you know. That's actually the name of this studio we're recording from. We can pull back from the nerd dub. But the other thing about Emeka Chavez, as she appears in this film, is she's part of this, what I like to call, the Young Avengers agenda. Yeah. Because Marvel is seeding these young characters. They keep hammering

these Wanda kids. They keep driving Dragon Billy out there. Billy and Tommy, right? The kids, you know, the introduction of Hilly Steinfeld and Hawkeye. Like, they're bringing in

these characters for this comic book team-up, which is the Young Avengers. So they're slowly seeding them in. And America Chavez is part of that. Before we get into spoilers,

would you recommend folks see this film? Do you have to really care about Marvel to see this film? No, you do not. I do think that I felt a little rusty. I was legit just like, I don't remember how Strange ended. I didn't rewatch it before this. I feel like I'm in a little bit of a slump with this stuff.

And I felt fairly entertained, especially in the second half. Joe, what do you think? I think it's going to be confusing if you haven't seen WandaVision, I'm being honest. And this has been, this has been the ongoing question of like,

how vital are the shows to understanding the movies? And I think this is the strongest case yet for like, you have to have seen a show, even if Sam Raimi didn't watch all of WandaVision, as he said in an interview. Other than that, yeah. I mean, yeah i mean yeah right it was i mean we're gonna talk about it but some of the stuff that happens in the second half well it's also just like really wild it is wild that you do if you were gonna try and explain this to your mom and you were just like so there's this thing on

disney plus i haven't downloaded that for you yet and that's six episodes and. And it's mostly a farce, but then it's important. And then that's over. And then at the end of a Spider-Man movie, there's a brief moment where she also shows up. And then you can watch Doctor Strange 2, the multiverse of madness. Also, it would help to watch Loki to understand the multiverse in general.

Listeners of the show have been hearing me twist myself in knots about this stuff for a long time. I will say, having gotten to the end of Moon Knight this week, I didn't feel good about that time spent. And I was like, am I only doing this? Am I only watching a show that I actively do not enjoy because I need to know in four years when Oscar Isaac shows up what that one joke means?

Yeah, and when he's like i'm not jacob mark yeah and i'm i'm a little i'm getting a little bit exhausted i'll say and i've been waiting my whole life for this to happen and it happened they made all these fucking marvel movies i really liked them up to a point and now i find myself a little bit exasperated that being said this was kind of a tonic for that. And maybe I didn't expect it to be so I didn't know how to understand it.

But by the time we got to the end of the new Doctor Strange, I was like this is pretty cool. I actually wish they would do this a little bit more often.

I wish they would just let somebody go off and do their own thing and have fun in the way that they know how to have fun with a movie. So I would recommend

it too. You want to talk about spoilers? Let's do it. Okay. If you do not want this movie spoiled, don't listen.

Turn it off. Go fire up. It's crazy when Batman shows up. Yeah. I know. Well, it's weird because we were talking about first half, second half, and they let Zack Snyder direct the second half,

which was wild. Right. Starring Harry Styles? Yes. I was like, wow. I didn't think he was going to pay off so quickly. Okay. Spoiler conversation starting now.

Normally, when we do this sort of thing, we would be talking about the ending of the movie and what happened that signals what's going to happen in the future of the MCU. I think what we're really going to spend most of our time talking about here is the Illuminati reveal and the characters that we see,

some of whom had been rumored for a while, some of whom we think we will see in the future in this universe. Talking, of course, about the introduction of John Krasinski as Reed Richards, long rumored,

Mr. Fantastic. Something I've been angling for for quite some time in public. Listeners of The Watch know. Where I'm like, where's Krasinski?

How many Reddit posts have you started about Krasinski as Reed Richards? It's kind of a hot topic of John Krasinski maybe having burners on Twitter a hot topic of John Krasinski, maybe having burners on Twitter. Have you seen that rumor that like when everybody was like,

you're a CIA plant because you love Jack Ryan so much. And he, there's like a burner account. That's like, John Krasinski is an actor and a performer and an interpreter of stories. Like, and it's like, he just,

this person kept tweeting at people. Maybe it's the multiversal. Oh my God. I know. It's a tweet on his behalf. And Emily Blunt's like, come to dinner, John. And he's like, person kept tweeting at people. Well, maybe it's the multiversal John Krasinski come to tweet on his behalf. And Emily Blunt's like come to dinner, John. And he's like

no, I gotta get my takes off. So can I ask I want to start this off with an observation from the movie theater as we're getting into spoilers and especially

the Illuminati stuff. I watched this elbow to elbow packed movie theater. There's it's an incredibly expensive movie, incredible sequences. The audible gasps

all came from references to things that have not yet happened or things, for the most part, even things that weren't in the movie. So, the Baxter building

or 616, these like kind of, not deep comic references. Marvel trigger words. Yeah. But like I granted we were obviously at an early screening

for the new Marvel movie. So it's not like it's looky-loos coming in and just like oh I guess I'll check this out. But it was wild to feel like the purpose of the film

was to tease things that have not yet happened. Well, furthermore, what's interesting about it is they may not happen. So in addition to Krasinski, we see Captain Carter, Hayley Atwell, and donning the first Avenger uniform. We see Maria Rambeau as Captain Marvel.

We see Black Bolt as portrayed by Anson Mount. And we see Professor X, which from the original X-Men film franchise. They got Pat Stewart out there, yeah. Of course, all this happens. Pat Stewart was like, I'm retired. We're going to give you the yellow floaty chair. And he's like, okay.

That was dope, honestly. You need to look at footnote number 394,000 in your contract. Yeah. I think the thing is, is that all of that stuff, this stuff this illuminati reveal which also features you know rachel mccatt ups's character operating in a different fashion um is in a different different universe and so anything that happens there could be considered

one-off or immaterial to the long-term story that they're telling, and ultimately just catnip for hardcore fans. Joanna, what did you make of this entire Illuminati sequence? In other words, until they say it in some post-release interview, which they might, I don't think this is a guarantee that John Krasinski is playing Reed Richards in the Fantastic Four movie. He might be, but they haven't announced it yet. And, you know, obviously people have been fan casting him as Reed Richards, including Chris Ryan for a long time.

And so when people I went with some hardcore fans who were complaining because they didn't think that Reed Richards felt like very Reed Richards to them. He was too nice. I agree. They said I didn't. He wasn't playing that right at all. And not to be too much of a nerd about it, but I was like, that's not Reed Richards to them. He was too nice. I agree. They said I he didn't he wasn't playing that right at all and not to be too much of a nerd about it but I was like that's not Reed Richards.

But I was just sort of like it's multiverse Reed Richards. Can I defend my guy here for a second? I don't think he knew what was going on like like I said to Sean I was like I don't know

if you rewatched that like his eyeline is not where Doctor Strange is standing like there whatever they whenever they shot that and what like for Oh none of them were in the room. Oh yeah. So like I just like think he did the best is not where Dr. Strange is standing. Like, whenever they shot that,

and what, like, for... Oh, none of them were in the room. Oh, yeah. So, like, I just think he did the best with what he... But, like, that is, like, the most wooden Krasinski performance I've ever seen. It raises the question of whether or not they shot that in the aftermath of people suggesting that he should be Reed Richards

or could be Reed Richards on one of the series. Well, did you guys hear the really... Well, actually, okay, two rumors. Number one, and I think this is a false rumor that Marvel put out. The rumor was the full Illuminati lineup that we saw, but instead of Krasinski as Reed Richards, it was Tom Cruise as Iron Man because Tom Cruise was like originally going to be like, was in the running to play Iron Man back in the day. So that was a real, like Tom Cruise and Iron Man were trending on Twitter. Like it was a really popular theory. And I really hope that Marvel is the one who planted that out there to

distract from this. The other thing that I think is actually true is that Bruce Campbell was going to play Balder and that was going to be the final seat on there. And I think they just decided that that was too obscure of a cut or whatever, or that was a battle Sam Raimi didn't win. Someone said Bruce Campbell gets to play a hot dog vendor. Yeah.

Pizza Papa. Yeah. Instead, or maybe it was supposed to be Ted Raimi on the council. I don't know, but like, I really think that Krasinski was a late ad there. And that explains some of that,

but I think, and then Haley obviously is playing the character that debuted in What If, the animated series that felt like the least essential of the Marvel TV shows. And you didn't really need to see it to understand what she was doing there. Sure, I got it. I think that, you know, and then obviously Ansem Mount is from the like ill-begotten attempt to do Immortals um feige had nothing to do with so but they but it's all part of feige trying to like wrap everything in and make it feel coherent right we're pitching forward towards the fantastic four we're pitching back to x-men we're pitching back to this other project that i didn't like but sure let's give anson mount who's great in star trek by the way like

another payday um it does feel like catnip. It feels like, do you guys know the phrase, like the NPR laugh, which is like the laughter you hear in an event of just sort of like, oh, I understand. Yeah. I get that line

because I'm educated. I'm guilty of doing that. Well, it's when somebody tells Terry Gross a really funny story and she goes, that's so funny. Yeah, exactly.

It's so much better in studio with you. And that's sort of how I felt like some of the reactions to like the, oh, I get it. Like Reed Richards is here.

Here's a hot take though. Is this like Kevin Feige flipping birds at people and be like, stop trying to cast my movies. Stop trying to bring in things that i do that like i'll move at my pace only if you're right that krasinski is not reed richards if he is not reed richards and they're casting a future fantastic four movie that will not i mean john watts left that movie so i don't i don't know

what that means but there is an element to this where it's like Professor X and the Fantastic Four which are essentially if I'm being completely honest that's why I'm still in the car

is to get to the Fantastic Four and get to X-Men you know like I like some of this stuff and it's cool but like I think the TV experience

combined with all the other TV that I gotta watch has started to make this a little bit less like fun as it used to be but I am still like yo

who's gonna be Sue Storm you know what I mean like I still wanna know and there's an element to what happens with the Illuminati

can I say they all get killed yeah of course they all get killed that sequence is great by the way I thought that was

a lot of fun and it's like killed by Wanda who is at the height of her powers I thought it was like here's the height of fan service

and the gut punch to fan service I thought that was the cleverest part about it was just when we offered you something you'd been clamoring

for months for we're taking it away from you in 45 seconds and they take mad L's like they barely they come in they're mad L's. Like they barely, they come in,

they're so cocky. I think it's hilarious. And then they get smoked by Wanda. I thought that was so fun. Something I've heard, I mean, and folks listening to this who want like the nerdier dive,

like you'll hear the Midnight Boys, like all the Midnight Boys were like, oh my God, like they promised the Illuminati and this is what they did with it. And I was like, I never thought the,

like we knew the, kind of the Illuminati were coming because like Patrick Stewart's voice was in the trailer and like Brian Michael Bendis is tweeting out panels of the Illuminati and like all sorts of stuff like that but like I I don't mind that it was sort of like there and gone I think that's kind of it's a cool way to show how powerful overpowered Wanda is. I loved seeing Hilly Atwell as Captain Carter. I thought that was really fun. I thought she was great. If they want to do more with her, great.

If this is it for her, also great. Like, that's fine. You know, Lashana Lynch, great. You know, and so I didn't have that expectation that this would be the big, important launch of the Illuminati. But for people who did, like, they were a little pissed about it. So, I don't know. I don't understand why Namor is not in the Illuminati. But for people who did, like, they were a little pissed about it. So, I don't know. I don't understand why

Namor is not in the Illuminati here. He's in the Brian Michael Bendis book, you know? Do they just not have the rights to that character? I don't think they've

cast him yet, right? Give me the Submariner. That's all I'm asking. Can I just get the Submariner? I guess, you know, this is like,

I love that you're like, on one hand, you're like, Alex Garland, thank you. Welcome back to the big picture. But on the other hand, you're like, Alex, I wanted to just get your thoughts on the Namor erasure from the Illuminati. Like the world of cinema, I contain multitudes. You know, and I can want my

knockoff Aquaman. Presumably, all of these Illuminati figures also exist in is it 616 is the version of reality that we've been watching this whole time? Right?

Not necessarily. I mean not necessarily and not necessarily played by the same actors. Right. Because like we've got different actors playing Peter Parker

different actors playing Loki. You know what I mean? So like we're not like this might be it for Pac-Man. So this is my thing. Why not then have Krasinski be the engineer that they're looking for in WandaVision? Like, it's like, oh, we have to save it for this special moment.

And your special moment is to like digitally attach him to this scene and then have him get like torn to shreds. It's a question of whether or not it's going to be a bit a gimmick or a full blown commitment to the actor. And they're not going to hire him for one spot on a TV show, but they will hire him for one fun cameo in the, what will turn out to be probably one of the five biggest movies of the year. Whether there's more than that. I don't know.

We'll see. Uh, go ahead. Talk about Wanda. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,

we just talked about something that basically was not ultimately relevant to the movie. Um, yeah, it's like a, basically that basically was not ultimately relevant to the movie. Yeah, it's basically a side quest. So the Wanda who goes on a killing spree who takes out the Illuminati has been... What is the phrase that they use for Wanda to take over a Wanda in another universe? She's dreamwalking.

She dreamwalks into herself in a different universe and essentially becomes Jack Torrance. I mean, that's a huge shining homage throughout the film where she becomes kind of this murderous super witch. And I don't know. What do you want to say, Joanne? What about the way that they told her story here that we should spoil? Okay. So we're in the spoiler section.

So we can talk about this. It's tough. I'm trying to imagine a world where this movie leads into wanda vision yeah right like does it end with wanda so traumatized by something is her search for vision and not the boys i have a i have a lot of questions here but here here are the two factors that seem to be blended together number one uh michael waldron is a huge leftovers fan so there's like a big leftovers uh thread here of like you know uh carrie coon nor durst in the leftovers her kids are in another place and like do you say do you go what do you do that's that's

all like in the in the pot here what's tough is that this is this is a comics canon story this idea that like wanda loses her kids and becomes unglued and a villain and i think it's a cool opportunity for marvel to take a hero that we've spent time with i mean one has always been you know you mentioned the sokovia accords like one has always been on the edge of something right but like to take a hero that we've been with and turn them into a villain that's a cool like season four payoff on a tv show or something like that you know like dark willow on buffy or something like you know so that's a cool show or something like that, you know, like Dark Willow on Buffy or something like that, you know? So that's a cool idea. The problem is that storyline in the comics of this like hysterical woman hasn't aged super well. And so when WandaVision happened,

I talked to Elizabeth Olsen, I talked to Jack Schaefer, who's the head writer on that show, about like, how are you going to tell this story without doing like an hysterical woman story that is going to turn people off and they were like i'm glad you asked we've had a lot a lot a lot of conversations about that so i think they walked a wire with that and did it well in one division then you come here and you come to like waldron and ramey trying to crash a movie and this is the story at the center of it is like a woman. And then Marvel already has this ding on their record from Ultron and the whole Black Widow thing about like her sterility and children and all that stuff and like how we treat motherhood in the MCU. And I have seen a lot of people talking about how angry they are about the way the Wanda

story was executed here. Not a knock on Elizabeth Olsen, but sort of just this knock on the way it was executed. And like, I really am glad that I listened to Sean's Raimi episode earlier this week because I'm a huge Raimi fan. Like I love Army of Darkness. I've seen 1 million times. Cook of the Dead also is a huge favorite of mine.

But like, if you watch that first Spider-Man movie, like the, the stuff with Mary Jane has kind of aged like milk. And like if you watch Army of Darkness, like that stuff isn't great. And I don't think Raimi has like an agenda, any agendas. That's what Sean made a really good point. There are no agendas here.

I just don't know that they were thinking all the way through the implications of the story. I don't think it occurred to them how this story might be revealed. Do you guys have any thoughts? We spend most of our time talking about like, oh, this visual sensibility didn't match. You know, the scene from this scene didn't look right. Krasinski's eyeline is off. This is what the important part is. Yeah.

Is if you don't spend time thinking this stuff through, you're going to miss. There are also story mechanics that influence character development in the way that we understand how much we care about these people. An example of that is the motivating factor for Wanda throughout this movie is to be with her children.

The children that she created as a kind of astral projection in the WandaVision series that are not real in 616, but in other universes are real. That's a weird thing to wrap your head around. And in fact, like the, the, one of the resolutions of this movie is just like her acceptance that they're

not real in this world and that they need to be with their real mothers in all of the other universes. That's like a lot of in a Mr. Fantastic style, like bending your appendages in a lot of different directions. And then essentially, so what we do is we thrust this Wanda

into this story and we make her like a crazy trauma-broken woman, which is a terrible trope in storytelling, just to get us into the idea of universes and multiverses. And it feels hacked together but that being said most marvel plots feel really hacked there's also this thing that

we probably are now used to this but a lot of these movies need some kind of personal trauma origin story to explain any behavior even than Thanos has one. It's true. I actually think there's a demon version of Wanda and she's broken through realities and is just kicking ass and wreaking havoc and killing heroes.

And what would be the problem with that being the villain? That's what I'm saying. I'm like, if you just want to send leather face Wanda screaming across realities, don't. I agree. And then maybe she gets busted up send leather face Wanda screaming across realities?

Don't. I agree. And then maybe she gets busted up by our Wanda. Candidly, that's much more true to the Raimi style too, which is just like,

evil is just kind of hilariously torturing us. You know, there's no, you know, essential traumatic origin story around like Lucifer

pushing his minions because God turned him away. It's not about that. It's like evil exists. It's kind of funny. And that's his whole his raise on debt. So the idea of having to put contemporary Marvel storytelling style into the hands of these guys. I don't know as much about

Waldron and what Waldron's trying to do. And the other thing is like sometimes the writer and the director of these movies don't have a lot of control over the stories that they're telling anyway. Absolutely. I don't think it's fair to drag Waldron. I've been I've seen I like Waldron a lot. I've seen him like get dragged in some places. And I'm like screenwriting in a machine like Marvel is not you cannot lay this at the feet of one screenwriter.

That's not how these movies are made at all. There are massive reshoots on this film. We don't know what happened. You know what i mean but that being said i think that uh and i know i also know that waldron who's like pals with jack shaffer was calling her a lot to like get her take on wanda and the story so like i know at least it was like someone on their mind and i do i do think that there are things that they put in place to kind of try to mitigate it like basically um we meet we meet uh sinister strange right this like this character who you know he's been corrupted by the dark hold and his motivation is the long last love of christine which as we already explained

is not like right uh very solid foundation here but it's sort of like it's not just a woman who's missing her children it's like this man who has a missed opportunity with a woman that he loves could also be seduced by a similar instinct. Like there before the grace goes strange, essentially, like he too could be seduced by the dark hold. And so it's not singularly on Wanda. So I do think that is there. And then also I do think the conclusion of like she's the only one who can stop, as a good way to address how overpowered Wanda has always been. No one was going to stop her except herself.

Um, is, is a, is a good, good resolution. But I guess my question for you guys is, and a lot of it, a lot of my want to take answers on this.

Do you think she is dead at the end of this film? No, or trapped in prison. This is like her actual jail did. You know, like, what was supposed to happen at the end of WandaVision, where they send her to, like, the suburb, like, not the suburbs, but to that lake. Oh, cabin by the

lake. Yeah, you chill out here for a while, and then she finds the Darkhold and destroys that, you know, obviously. I think there's something fun about making her the Hannibal Lecter of this world, too. Where sometimes, when she's your ally, it's kind of fun. She's like Magneto. You're on an adventure. It's similar to Magneto. Yeah, I mean, of course, there's something fun about making her the Hannibal Lecter of this world too where sometimes when she's your ally it's kind of fun she's like Magneto

you're on an adventure it's similar to Magneto yeah I mean of course there's some relationship there and I wonder if they will retcon some of that as they start to introduce some of the X-Men characters

into this world but yeah she'll be back she'll be friends with someone in the Avengers and they'll get along and they'll be on a mission

and then she'll be a villain again somehow everything that we've just set aside in the reflecting pool fight'll get along and they'll be on a mission and then she'll be a villain again somehow. Everything that we've just set aside in the reflecting pool fight when she busts out and she's doing the ring walk

and chasing them through tunnels. I was like, that's the best antagonist villain scariest thing that I've seen in 28 movies.

I don't know if it's... I'm trying to think. I mean, we've've taught joe we talked about this i think with the turtles with the villain problem chris you and i have been talking about it for years now um it's because it's a character that we know and are invested in and that's one of the biggest things a lot of times in these movies they're like here's a guy he's a crime lord and also he has a power because he has a ring on you know like i guess i'm supposed to be afraid of him and with her we've been with her for a long time they've developed her over time that's that's the cool uh payoff on investment that is

potential here i just think that there are some inspires that have made a lot of people i'm i'm honestly it's been four days since i've seen this movie i'm still processing how i feel about it i but what happened what's also unfortunate for the movie is that it, when I walked out of my screening, opened my phone to the news about what the Supreme Court

is up to. And so that conversation is going to flavor how some people react to this movie. Yeah. Whether that's fair or not, that's just how we process art,

right? And so that's all part of it but i also walked out to a bunch of people who i know who had seen the movie around the country in that press screening say aren't you mad about how they did wanda and i was like i'm working on it yeah i'm working on processing it i don't know how i feel but i i do know that that's a reaction a lot of people have had so it raises an interesting question of shouldn't all people who have superpowers be struggling with

their mental health? It's such a radical and alienating experience in some cases literally alienating. It's just fascinating to think about when we were talking about what if Wanda was just this ex-Machina bad guy

that showed up and it doesn't have to have the trauma of her imagined motherhood or whatever. The flip side of that is like, what if Strange just kind of gets drunk on power after Spider-Man and everything else he's accomplished? He's back from the blip. The world has moved on.

He breaks bad. And Wanda's the only thing that's powerful enough to stop him. And that's her redemption for what happened in WandaVision. Could have been the story they told. But they can't because they made Wanda's the only thing that's powerful enough to stop them. And that's her redemption for what happened in WandaVision. Could have been the story they told. But they can't because they made WandaVision. And because they made, like, you know what I mean?

Like, this is the fascinating thing about this project is that, sure, like, if the Eternals never show up again in anything in Marvel and it's never mentioned, it would be surprising. It'd be fine. But it would be fine. Yeah. They're too hot committed to some of this stuff. I know you wanted to talk about this anyway, so I hope you don't mind me bringing it up. No, you're segwaying exactly where I wanted to go in this conversation.

What are we doing? Yeah. Like, what are we... I think when you wrote this in the document, just being like, what has there now been six movies or whatever in this phase? And it keeps being like king the conqueror he's in this you know what i mean like it's it's it's amplified because phase one had six movies culminating in the avengers the end of the avengers we see thanos right in the stinger phase two has six movies as

well culminating more or less in ultron. Phase 3 had 11 films, but concluded if you consider Endgame the conclusion that there was a Spider-Man movie after it, but if you you know, probably as well as you can do it. Any intellectual property franchise can close it out. I mean, it's the biggest movie of all time. People were

rapturous about the way that they sold that. So Phase 4, everyone knew there was going to be a reset. Everyone knew it was going to take a lot of time. We're also going through a pandemic. We're also going through the launch of these TV series. There are also theoretically 11, but maybe more films in phase four.

We've only had five, I think. I think this is the fifth of the phase four films, but we've also already seen six Disney plus TV series. Who knows how many more, I guess, Ms. Marvel is the next one that we're going to see. There's been a lot of also coming. Yes. how many more? I guess Ms. Marvel is the next one that we're going to see. She Hope is also coming.

Yes. There's been a lot of stuff. We've seen a lot. And this movie, while I actually think it's good and fun that it was not critical to the long-term storytelling of the franchise, I did find myself wondering,

I've spent a lot of time in this world and I don't know where the story's going at all. Like, I don't know who the big bad is. I feel like we have, like, literally 25 more heroes that are going to be introduced before we know who the big bad is. Every time we do it, they seem to mention all these, like, world and galaxy-destroying consequences of multiversal travel, yet that never...

Not that I want that to happen, but I'm like, what are the rules of this? And I think that that's part but I'm like, what are the rules of this? And I think that that's part of the gamble when you do it. The payoff is you get to have Reed Richards and Professor X. The negative part is that most people don't understand what the consequences of this are. Right. It's a question of stakes.

So, Joe, you're even more of an expert in this. Do you feel that this notion is starting to rattle around in your mind? Where are we going here? Well, I mean, so I don't know that I think something that they said after Endgame is like, please don't think of the next phase as building towards a similar event. Like, we're not doing big bads, big Thanos overarching bads anymore. Why? Like, that's not really who Kang is. But why? Well, I think. Because it worked. big thanos overarching bads anymore like that's not really who king is but why well i think because it worked i think part of it is and this is out of marvel as as powerful as feige is in hollywood

because he's making all the money for everyone right um and and as much as he has finally like gained control over the mcu away from like marvel new york which is a was a long battle yeah he's still beholden to the larger Disney overlords and the larger Disney overlords in their pursuit of winning the streaming wars have stretched Marvel to the breaking point in the demand for content. Like this is not Marvel's decision to do this many Disney Plus shows.

It's not Lucasfilm's decision to make that many Star Wars shows. They are giving a mandate a quota so that they can make disney plus must see tv must have uh service for home like people uh deciding what to keep and what to go and so they're stretched so thin they're stretched thin as uh reed richards man and so like, I think to their detriment, I think that's why you get a lot, some of the slop that we've seen. And by slop, I mean like

VFX shots in this movie that look like they're not finished, you know, or stuff that, narrative stuff in Moon Knight where you're like, what am I doing here? Like what's happening here? The thing I did like about Moon Knight

is that it felt self-contained. It obviously won't be when Oscar Isaac shows up in a later property, but those six episodes, I was really glad that like you know spoilers for moon night captain america doesn't show up at the end or something like that you know i liked that about moon night and i think the feast or show up uh only in my dreams chris and every night dream walking forever in my dreams mephisto but i think that um the multiverse that's a really that's a really

sticky wicket for them because like i think it's really confusing this out of order way that they've told the story where we get the multiverse breaks open in loki oh wait or did it break open in no way home or wait did it break open in in this movie that we just saw right you know like who what what is the inciting incident like what and who's using it in a way that's okay and who's not using it in a way that's okay and i i think the scheduled juggle really messed with them in a way you know due to covet and due to a number of other things that messed with a really trick would have been a tricky story to launch under the best of circumstances it sounds like i'm making excuses but i just i'm trying to explain how how a highly competent

storytelling engine like marvel got here so quickly you know so with all of that in mind what what are the expectations for this movie because it is not the world connecting extravaganza we expected it's a little bit more self-contained. The Marvel box office has been Spider-Man No Way Home accepted. A little down of late. A little bit softer.

Doctor Strange, not one of the signature characters in the universe. Is this coming to Disney Plus in like three months? I don't know what the date on that is. Joanna, do you know?

I don't. Because you think this is a movie like, hey, you could wait. And it's not that big a deal. I have some pretty nerdy friends who are waiting, who waited for Batman. Interesting.

Well, that Batman window was so narrow. Yeah. 45 days was that Batman window. I suspect that this one will be bigger than that. But maybe not that much bigger. Although the world of streaming has changed. They haven't announced it. Yeah.

I think that's one thing that actually the studios should know better than. They should not be announcing when their films will be coming to streaming services. Joanna, you know, you don't have to put a number on it necessarily, but are we, is this going to be a big hit? Is there Marvel fatigue setting in? What do you think? I think it's going to be a big hit. I think the Illuminati cameos are going to do a lot for a lot of people and get them excited. I think the

one factor, the thing that we really liked, the fact that it wasn't there's a stranger in your house horror, but it was horror. I had some parents ask me, can I take my kids to this? I would not. No. I wouldn't. Too scary. You know what I mean? And that's something that we

like about it. We like that Marvel is experimenting but like are you going to cut into the to the family um income you know box office you could be making so i might it might cut a little bit it's currently hovering i think around 80 on the old unreliable tomato meter rts yeah so i'm not a fan of that joanna on this podcast no i'm not a fan of that Joanna on this podcast no I'm not a fan of that but I think that might be some kind of indicator I think it's gonna do

quite well and then Maverick's gonna buzz the tower I'm so excited anticipation is building for the I think we may record between 6 and 12

consecutive pods about Top Gun Maverick which I'm really excited about any closing thoughts, CR? You also would be willing to play Reed Richards if asked. They have my tape. Okay.

It can't be worse than what Krasinski had to do, where he was just looking at a coffee cup to the left and being like, you've broken the rules of the multiverse, strange. Joe, you putting yourself up for Sue Storm? What's the deal? Oh, no, I want to play uh black bolt in some other uh multiverse and get my head devastated by of course we'll be playing ben grim in all future marvel properties um guys this is fun thanks for

chatting with me about this marvel product it's all product now these days this episode of the big picture is also a product it It was produced by Bobby Wagner. It was kind of produced by you, though. No offense, Bobby. Wow. I mean, because we're on this new machinery. I made a joke to Bob about how this is what happens when they introduced robots at the Ford plant. And it's like the American

workforce is being cut down. But I promise, Bobby is going nowhere. We aren't replacing any of our fundamental producers. We'll just give Bobby a bunch of dials to spin he was like that's right grandpa that's how you turn the volume up

thanks everyone for listening to this show next week on The Big Picture I'm gonna do a mailbag haven't done a mailbag in a while the wide world of movies

if you want to know more about Doctor Strange any of the movies coming out later this year hit us on Twitter I'll be answering questions thanks to Joe thanks to Chris See you guys soon.