The Big Picture - 'Dune 2' Pushed Back, Barbenheimer’s $2 Billion, and Everything We Missed While We Were Out

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

We’re back! Sean and Amanda discuss all the movies they missed, the big stories out of Hollywood, and much more (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by ‘Bottoms’ director Emma Seligman to discuss her new comedy (1:35:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Emma Seligman Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about everything we missed while we were out. Later in this show, I'll be joined by Emma Seligman, the filmmaker behind 2021's Shiva Baby and her new high school fight club comedy Bottoms,

which Amanda and I will discuss in this episode. Emma is one of the most exciting young filmmakers working today. Her De Niro Scorsese style collaborations with Rachel Sennett are a favorite of mine. I hope you'll stick around for our conversation. But first, boy, Amanda, it's been 30 plus days since we've podcasted together. How are you doing? Has it really been 30 days? I believe so.

Because I left early and I missed Garbage Fish. You missed Garbage Fish. Yeah. And I believe it's been 30 days. I have some follow-ups on Garbage Fish to bring to Chris when we draft later this week. For you, I just want to say, how are you sleeping on the orcas this much? I just wasn't aware of that story. I don't know what to say.

I don't always make it to page B28 in the New York Times. It's not on B28. It was, I guess, I know that you're doing specialized internet film news. That's right. My content has been curated acutely to my interests. Now, one might say orcas are in my interests due to my garbage fish taste. Right. You don't really like the ocean that much. That's the other thing. Not true. You had to have a whole conversation. Hold on. Let's not do this routine. First time we get back, first time we're in a room in 30 days.

I love the ocean. I might even, in fact, say the sea is dope to me as well. I do not like the sand. I am anti-sand. And what I want is a beach minus sand. Okay. Can we make this happen? Yes. It's called Europe. Let's go. I wish I lived there, but I don't. So there's only so much I can do. What are we going to talk about today? Well, first of all, let me just say, shout out to you. Shout out to the wonderful Brian Raftery, to our own Bobby Wagner,

to, gosh, Devin Manzi, Vikram Patel, Kat Splane, so many other people here at The Ringer who helped produce, conceive, edit, report, execute on Do We Get to Win This Time, which I think was just a wonderful miniseries on this feed. If people haven't listened to it, it's terrific. And I, you know, I'd only heard some of it before it started airing. And now that I've heard the whole series, I'm like, damn, this was just a great idea. Shout out to Bill Simmons for originating this idea over a year ago. Really credit to Brian, who's so wonderful and wonderful to work with and the rest of our team. This was, it was like genuinely fun to work on, which is not something I say very often about most things. Um, and also, also I feel turn out very well, which is not something that I say very often either. I'm very proud of

it. So, um, listen, if you haven't and thank you, Sean, for listening. Um, my pleasure. Did you have a nice vacation? I had a great vacation. I really did. did um i did a whole east coast grand tour uh with with my family seeing family primarily like the pope does like did you have parades i was thinking more like a edith wharton uh heroin you know like but it's so lots of depression okay unspoken feelings with men that you may not consummate love with? I mean, yes. All of the above. I've read my Edith Wharton. Sure. It was with family to see family. I went to the beach.

I like the beach. So that was positive for me. So you like the sand. Yeah, I do. And also my son really liked the sand. I saw some photos. He has finally moved past the phase of eating the sand, but definitely likes to throw it, to be buried buried in it he's opening up to the idea of

the water i was very proud of him so he by the like he started you know 10 to 20 feet away from the ocean and then like crept his way up as the week went along and by the end was kind of playing at the edge of the water okay so that was vital to your long-term happiness is your son being able to swim. Yes. Yeah. So that was positive. The other thing that happened, I guess I'm just giving a kid update,

but I want to give you a sense of where my mind is up right now. Okay. Which is that at some point over vacation, my husband decided that it would be funny to introduce Knox to the song Piano Man by Billy Joel. Okay. Quality tune. Long Island Zone. Quality tune. No disrespect to Billy Joel or Piano Man but when it becomes the only song that your child wants to listen to

and you've heard it probably 45 times in the last 48 hours, it takes on a different valence. And that's where I am. And that's what I'm bringing to this podcast. Little known fact, if you grew up on Long Island, we don't play God Bless America before events. We play Piano Man. And so it was ingrained into my soul at a very early age.

Just a great song. I think it's the harmonica that he likes. Yeah. But it's like, because I tried. Well, that's a future Christmas present. Uncle Sean to Big Knox. He has one of those train whistles and he figured out how to blow the train whistle. He's very proud of himself.

So yeah, probably. Music is everywhere. I know. I tried doing Elton John. I did Life on Mars, like David Bowie. You know, things like piano and soaring melodies and it just the more sign which in this case means play me piano man instead i don't want this okay so he's a one song guy right now a boy of great taste yeah um how was your vacation it was okay it was nice you know there are no vacations with two-year-olds

as we say there are only trips but um i went back to Long Island, home of Billy Joel, amongst many other great folks. And I spent some time there and just chased my two-year-old around and saw a lot of family, which was nice. And then I came back. You guys met an emo? An ostrich? We met llamas. Llamas. Right.

Okay. Actually, at my aunt's house in Yapank, there was just a llama farm across the street. And once a year, they open the llama farm to kids to come and meet the llamas. And there were other animals there. So did Alice touch a llama? I don't believe there was any touching. Okay, good. I think that there was some close proximity, but no actual contact. I mean, these were clean llamas.

Are you anti-llama? No, no. And it's not a hygienic concern. I just, there are certain animals. Yeah, I remember this. You're afraid of the ostriches. Well, the ostriches are weird. And that one time we went to the ostrich farm and found the ostriches, like they did not have good manners. And we're about to like bite our fingers off. We should do a side pod that's just the trips that me, you, C.R. and our families have taken together. Because we did go to an ostrich farm and it was weird.

But it's just like there are some animals that I don't think humans and the animal are supposed to interact with in a friendly, domesticated way. Like ostriches. My big one here is peacocks that get to roam around zoos or arboretums like absolutely not okay you know like there were wild turkeys where we were staying how do you feel about that i don't feel good about it i in general i'm not trying to interact with large wild birds okay you have a bird fear yeah of course this is a movie podcast well yeah okay and. Cogb made a whole movie about it. Very true. I can't deny that. So, you know, llamas, alpacas, emus, ostriches have been somewhat domesticated, you know, and it just never feels right. It never feels like they're happy and I never feel comfortable. Well, not to worry, because I will not be bringing you to the llama farm anytime soon. When I came back to Los Angeles after my trip back East Coast, I just spent a lot of time watching movies.

Me too. Is that depressing or is that exciting for us? I think it's great. Did you watch movies on vacation? Very few. I basically didn't watch any because I was at the beach with my in-laws. We couldn't really set that up. Yeah. Occasionally, I would fire up a couple of things. any because I was like at the beach with my in-laws and couldn't really set that up.

Yeah. Occasionally I would fire up a couple of things. I had my wife and I watched Tessia Gahara's Antonio Gaudi documentary at like 11 p.m. on a Tuesday night when we got some downtime to ourselves. Normal. But not a whole lot of movies. But then when I came back, was just in maniac mode. Same, but it felt nice. You know what? It was restorative to not be on the hamster wheel, of course. I think many listeners of this show were quite relieved, frankly, that we took some time off. And we were too. We're back. We're rejuvenated.

I can't say I felt as though I missed a lot of greatness whilst we were gone. There were certainly things that happened. Maybe we should just talk about some news before we get into the actual movies that we missed because I feel like the most important news was just that when we left, we were entering the early stages of a Barbenheimer domination and it seemed like this was going to be

the movie event of the year or maybe even this half decade. And now it pretty much is. Really, $2 billion worth of box office for these two movies. We're recording this on Wednesday the 23rd. These movies could get up to $2.5 billion. That's remarkable. Did you experience this out in the world?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was fun for once to go out and see family, see friends. Random people that I met on the beach found out that I like cover movies and they were like, oh, Barbenheimer. And everybody wanted to talk about it. And I have not felt like I was anywhere near the center of culture in like 10 years. Such a funny moment. My aunt and uncle came over at one point during our vacation and they had just seen Oppenheimer the night before. my wife had still not seen it and they just wanted to talk about Oppenheimer so she just had to leave she just left this this socializing time for an hour and a half while we just talked about

Oppenheimer right so you're right it has infected did they enjoy it they loved it yeah it was fast I mean they were my uncle was a was a was a social studies teacher so he was like yeah sure this is his movie of the decade but they both were enraptured by it and had a lot of ideas and thoughts about it and uh Eileen has still not seen it she did see Barbie though I met did you like it she did yeah she had some interesting reservations but on the whole enjoyed it quite a bit I think that's true for most people who have seen Barbie like in week two or later you know once you haven't gone that was something I wanted to ask you sort of like what do you think kind of aftermath feedback is on the movie so I met I met two people on my travels who did not like Barbie I would describe them as people

as as women of Bobby's generation who are very cool. Okay. So... Is that a derisive cool or a not derisive cool? No, no, no, no. They're just like cool. They like make art, you know? They're like genuinely cool people, like younger than me. That's very similar to Amy Taubin's feedback

on the movie too, where she was like, it's about a fucking doll. And it's like Amy Taubin was in Andy Warhol's factory. She's actually cool. Exactly. So everyone else that I met enjoyed it had fun i met someone else was like i really liked it but you know expectations were so high that like i had some notes it wasn't like the best thing that's

ever happened which is like that's that's the life cycle of something almost everything yeah yeah yeah yeah reception yeah oppenheimer, my friend's Uncle Billy, thinks that Christopher Nolan is a consummate filmmaker. That's a direct quote. Great. We ran into him at dinner. Solid take. And then... Where's he at on Tenet?

I think, I don't know. I didn't ask him about that because instead I tried to ask him about The Third Hour. And then he was like, well, we've read the book, so we understood. Have you revisited the movie? You've seen it twice. I've seen it twice, but I haven't gone back. And then my father-in-law liked it,

but didn't feel like it did enough justice to the contributions of science. I don't know what that means. I don't really either, but that was his review. This movie's about science. I know, but he's like, no, but there's, but like the actual science as opposed to the ethics around the science.

I have a recommendation for him. Watch the film Interstellar, in which science is explained at you for three hours. Did your father-in-law see Barbie? Yes. Oh, interesting. And my mother-in-law, and they both liked it. And then they listened to our podcast. Oh, terrifying.

No, and they liked that too. But when they said, Amanda, we listened to our podcast oh terrifying no and they liked that too but when they said amanda we listened to your podcast my response was oh no um and then and then jane and rich were very complimentary and they also said that i love them they thought that you did a good job of not talking too much uh in a movie about women well let me tell you something that was part of my strategy so thank you to them for acknowledging my efforts there. Boy, a lot of people have seen these movies. It's really exciting. I will say,

more people have seen Avatar the Way of Water than have seen both of these movies combined and that will probably continue to be the case, which I don't want to lose sight of

because Avatar the Way of Water is one of the craziest successes in movie history. And once again, we are going through the exact same life cycle as the first Avatar. But when you look at those lists of the most successful movies and and I know Trial by Content did this great episode about the best and worst $1 billion movie.

And there's been a lot of discourse about the billion-dollar movie and what that actually means. Barbie, of course, has crossed that threshold. I don't think Oppenheimer is going to quite get there, but it's going to get pretty close. It's probably going to get into $800, almost $900 million. Barbie is a pretty good billion dollar movie. There's not a lot. Most of them are not very good, actually. Obviously, you know, I like Titanic. I love Avatar. You know, Spider-Man No Way Home, that's a good movie. Of course, I love Endgame, Lord of the Rings. You like that. You love Lord of the Rings. I mean, after that, it's a little bit of a fall off there. It's a lot of like Jurassic Park 6 Lord of the Rings. You like that. You love Lord of the Rings. I love Lord of the Rings. You can't say.

I mean, after that, it's kind of, there's a little bit of a fall off there. It's a lot of like Jurassic Park 6 action going on. I mean, that's tough. Aquaman, you know. Yeah. Also, the nice thing about Barbie, and the amazing thing about Barbie, is that it's how quickly it has become, it's just seeped everywhere in the culture. Like, I heard random people who I don't know just being like, oh, it's just seeped everywhere in the culture. Like I heard like random people who I don't know

just being like, oh, it's like, they're saying, hi, Barbie. Hi, Barbie. You know, like I heard the Dua Lipa song on the radio, by the way, I think that song's pretty good. Okay. Thanks for weighing in. I just, I don't know.

We talked a little bit about the music. I liked it. I liked it too, but it stands on its own. The criticism, not criticism criticism but like the thing around avatar for so long was that it was the most successful movie of all time and like has completely disappeared from the culture right except for the people on the message boards who love avatar um what message i'm not on message boards wasn't there an episode of a television show that you loved yeah how to how to with john you know it's finally getting its due my my homies

at the watch were singing its praises. I have been on How To with John Wilson Island. Actually, me and Justin Sales, our beloved Justin Sales at The Ringer, also I know loves the show. But there was an all-time episode about the Avatar enjoyers. Yes, you're right.

Right, and that was part of a larger conversation about like, this is the most successful movie ever and no one remembers it, which is like kind of a straw man argument but does get at something about the lack of cultural footprint that the avatar franchise has despite it's like billions and billions of dollars yeah it's barbie has like its biggest footprint is that it does doesn't have a footprint yeah you know exactly at least people say that or the or the font. Right, the font.

But Barbie has the footprint down like immediately. I wonder if that'll hold. I'm quite curious. I mean, there's no way to know right now. Obviously, it's been a true phenomenon. I think some of it is related to what Margot Robbie does in the next 10 years. Of course, what Greta Gerwig does in the next 10 years and kind of like how the movie is imprinted. But then that leads to a question I wanted to ask you too which we discussed a little

bit in the immediate aftermath of those movies but now with some distance what impact will these two movies have like what will they what will this lead to because I I've I also did I had some I did some lunching while I was also on my quasi vacation I sat with some media giants I sat with some producers and they were all kind of hopeful that it would lead to more traditionally creative empowerment of auteur-style filmmakers with bigger properties. Not necessarily IP, quote unquote, but trusting the Christopher Nolans and the Greta Gerwigs of the world to take bigger chances on things than had previously been the case for the last five to ten years.

So if they were saying it, and you and I are hoping that's what's going to happen, maybe it is going to happen? Maybe. I mean, that's nice that producers were hopeful. That's good at lunch in August. Given everything that's going on. Well, they don't have shit to do right now. Well, exactly.

Yeah, but, you know, i'm happy to hear that i think there is a danger that the lesson from it is you know make more movies about toys rather than make more smart movies for women and people who will go to the movies with them and scientists as well yeah and so sure of course course. But I guess not enough. For certain sectors of the audience. Exactly. So, we'll see. I become cynic in moments like this. I don't actually trust Hollywood to take the right

lessons ever in anything, and they rarely do. But sure, let's be optimistic. Okay, great. Well, Amanda, it's about 24 hours since we recorded this episode that you're listening to right now and we're doing a pickup because there's been some news we did a whole segment about how the sag after nwga strikes might affect forthcoming films in 2023 while we were recording i said please do anything but don't push my beloved dune part two pay the writers

pay the actors come to a deal but please don't push dune part two Part 2. Pay the writers. Pay the actors. Come to a deal, but please don't push Dune Part 2. Lo and behold, what did they do? They pushed Dune 2. They pushed Dune 2. I was literally waiting for the elevator to leave, to go off on our adventures, and we were summoned back

because we knew this was coming. Did you know in your heart that this was coming? You did. That's why you were pleading. I think that's why I even created the segment to discuss in the first place because I just had a really bad feeling.

And of course they did. So now March 15th, 2024 is when Dune 2 will come out. Now this has some reverberations in our world of movies for a variety of reasons. One, it makes November a lot less fun. I think November had the chance

to be a very exciting movie month. You know, Napoleon and Yorgos Lanthimos movies and Oscar season and Maestroimos movies and oscar season and maestro and on and on and on but dune part two was really the centerpiece of the the situation and also there was an expectation that it had a kind of lord of the rings return of the king potential awards to be a big oscar movie right this means that zendaya will most likely not be at the oscars because Challengers has already been moved.

Also to late spring. I did wonder at whether they're trying to group those together for just like Zendaya Palooza next spring. Timothee Chalamet no longer has to go to the Oscars unless Wonka is nominated. Wonka has not yet been moved. Austin Butler probably doesn't have to show up at the Oscars. Maybe he will anyway because he was a nominee last year. He's still working on his Q score. Sure.

And the Bike Riders is later this year, right? I hope that's an Oscar film. That would be exciting. Or at least he just kind of wants promotional opportunities. Who else am I forgetting? In June, Florence Pugh? Well, she might be there for Oppenheimer. And then the woman won't be able to watch it with her husband.

Yeah. Dave Bautista? Will he be there? Sure. Stellan Skarsgård? You know, the Oscars had a notable star problem last year. And especially young people were just not attending the Oscars and certainly not watching the Oscars. So that's a bummer. I like it were just not attending the Oscars and certainly

not watching the Oscars. So that's a bummer. I like it when stars are at the Oscars. Can I tell you who this benefits? Yes. Greta Gerwig. It does. This is an open slot now in Best Director, where Denis Villeneuve was nominated for the first Dune film. I think it's likely he would have been nominated for the second. This also obviously, in theory, opens up a slot in the Best Picture race.

Sure. I don't know. It's a drag. I understand why it's happened. I understand from the perspective of the studios. I understand from the artists who are striking. Of course. I get it.

Of course I get it. But it's just a bummer. And I wonder if more may have happened after this episode comes out where there's just a significant more it's a bummer um and i wonder if more may have happened after you know this episode comes out where there's just a significant more films that are pushed it does make me feel a little queasy because it felt like we were making some moment getting some progress here can i do like an under the hood big picture thing so are we cutting the segment that we recorded yesterday i don't know we're gonna let bobby who has been on a europe vacation, sorted out for us. We expressed optimism.

But that was 24 hours ago. And we were trying to read the tea leaves of the reports of the most recent negotiations between the studios and the WGA. And that kind of looked like it was maybe souring a little. But we were like, well, at least they're talking again. And now I'm feeling less optimistic than i was yesterday about a deal my plan is to cut all that stuff out but then also play it at the end with like some clown card music underneath it great beautiful yakety sax yeah that would be great thank you so much for your support um yeah i mean it's a real this is a real-time example of how nobody knows anything you know that there was a sense that there was something good happening,

and now something bad is happening. This is a big move. We mentioned that Sony had previously done this. Now Warner Brothers doing it is a pretty big deal. It does seem like Wonka and Aquaman 2 are staying in place. That's how great that we get to have Aquaman 2 and not Dune 2. What a world. I mean, does that seem like any indication that, like, hopefully there will be a deal before the promotion?

Like, because those movies are scheduled for a month later. Yes, I read it that way. Than June. And essentially, the way that movie marketing works now, which, as we've discussed, is very important. And Warner Brothers, which is releasing due to, is very good at, see Barbie. Yeah. The promotion would have to start now. It feels like they're now feeling like two months is not enough of a window

to create enough excitement for Dune 2. So honestly, if the strikes continue on through the end of September, you might see Wonka and Aquaman and a number of other films from the studios that rely primarily on theatrical releasing to generate revenue for their films unlike netflix amazon apple and that also benefits those studios which will get to have more of the mind share of the movie conversation they will get to have more of the mind share of the awards conversation um this is huge if you're a killers of the flower moon stan you know because

apple gets to benefit from this in many ways. A movie like Air gets to benefit from this because who knows what this means for the rest of the Oscar season slate. Because even smaller films that have big stars need those stars to promote. Otherwise, they might get bumped into 2024. We shall see. We'll be covering it when we return from our festival experiences. But I suspect this is not the last domino don't you think that every day that goes by i'm just like they should hold the marvels

and remake it as like the girl group idea that I originally thought it was. Like, I really just thought it was like the Supremes, but then they were superheroes, you know? That is a fantastic idea. I know. They should do it. That would necessitate Marvel accepting good ideas, which do not appear to be in strong supply at the moment in Marvel. That's your problem. You know, I'm not bothered.

Is it my problem? Well, let's see. I've moved on. I'm good. I mean, I'll watch the movies, but like whatever emotional investment, I punt it. I feel good about it. I was thinking about this the other day.

I think I was on the town with Matt Bellany like a year and a half ago being like, it's over. Like the quality issue is severe and it will meaningfully impact the quality issue is severe and it will meaningfully impact the business it was probably right around after

Eternals and I was like oh wow something is way off here and in that case I'm not always right I'm often wrong

but in that case I was right like the audience definitely picked up on because I think what's happened now this might be an issue for the Marvels

it might not the quote unquote good movies and our opinions may differ on these particular films, but like Guardians 3 was really well-reviewed. It did really good business. Across the Spider-Verse was really well-reviewed. It did really good business.

Those were good movies. They succeeded. We're going to talk about another superhero movie here that is less successful and is struggling. There are reasons for that. Anyway, it's going to be a huge story depending on how the strikes shake out and what movies we get to see. But then on the flip side, you know, Netflix has a lot of really big

movies coming out and I don't think there's any chance they're going to delay any of those movies, even if their stars can't promote them because they operate in a different universe where they are not as reliant upon those marketing machines in that exact same way that Oppenheimer or Barbie was. So I'm pretty sure we're going to see The Killers, you know, or The Killer, rather. I'm pretty sure we're going to see the new Zack Snyder Rebel Moon movie, which did you watch that trailer? It was three hours, it was three minutes and 45 seconds, though it did feel like three hours.

But it was kind of like, it felt like, I'm pretty sure this is what happened, that Zack Snyder got rejected from being able to make a Star Wars movie. So he's like, fuck you, I'm doing my own Star Wars. So it's like a big space opera. Okay. There's also a new Star Wars show. Ahsoka. Yes, it just started.

I watched the first eight minutes of it last night before going to bed. Okay, so that's your review? Not necessarily. It's fine. It's just I am only aware of that through airport marketing, which there was a lot of. Well, it stars the great Rosario Dawson. Right. It's possible that I also saw some Rebel Moon advertising and then thought that it was just part of the new Star Wars thing, because how can I differentiate? Rebel Moon is not coming out for four months, so I assume you saw Ahsoka materials.

Watch Ahsoka. Let me know what you think. I won't, but... Great. We me know what you think. I won't. But. Great. We had some tragic passings while we were out. My my guy William

Friedkin Hurricane Billy passed away really sad. Once a guest on this show five years ago was did not sit in that chair that you're sitting in unfortunately

because we were working out of Sunset Gower in Hollywood. But I had an amazing conversation with him in studio. He came by himself. He drove a Cadillac to the office.

Sick. And then I walked him back to his car and I talked to him outside for like an hour, like longer than we talked during the interview. And just an absolute gem. Of course, the famed director of The French Connection, Sorcerer, The Exorcist, many great films, many great undiscovered films from the 80s and 90s.

To Live and Die in LA is one that I think everybody should watch. Someone who is simultaneously like a part of the new Hollywood, but kind of operating also outside of the new Hollywood in many ways. A great admirer of art, of foreign films, deeply sophisticated guy who is also just like a huge fucking asshole from Chicago. And I mean that in the most loving way possible, like such a direct speaker. Said as a fucking asshole from Long Island. Exactly. I mean, he really was, I felt that in the most loving way possible. Like such a direct speaker. Said as a fucking asshole from Long Island.

Exactly. I mean, he really was, I felt a real kinship with him just as a talker. But he was an amazing, amazing filmmaker and really important to the history of movies.

And I would encourage anybody to just check out all of his work, to read his book, The Friedkin Connection, which is one of the great shit-talking director memoirs, you know.

And there are so many documentaries that are just him talking that are a lot of fun I don't know if you have a big relationship to Friedkin's work he's a very

he's a very masculine kind of macho sure but also you can't escape The French Connection and The Exorcist which you know even I am

very deeply aware of despite my fear of The Exorcist but that's again the power of his filmmaking also just like one of those great like early or like middle hollywood like not quite new hollywood he's like sort of adjacent and like easy rider raging bulls like the peter biskin book but it's like contemporaneous and just like a guy who was just making cool movies and doing cool stuff and driving a Cadillac to Sunset Gower to talk to you. You know what I mean?

A classic, they don't make them like that anymore. They don't. He was not really counterculture. He was sort of like redefining what actual culture was because his first few movies, not his first few movies, his first, you know, his most legendary movies, I should say, were such massive hits that they completely overwhelmed the culture i mean the exorcist was like you would wait in line for six hours to buy tickets to that movie so very few like him he's one of the greats shout out to him paul rubens passed away you know i don't know if we've talked about peewee's big adventure or peewee's playhouse

much on this show in the past but for a an 80s baby such as myself, pretty astoundingly influential person. And just thinking about what could be deemed acceptable in the mainstream, I guess not unlike Friedkin in that way. I mean, Pee Wee's Playhouse being a successful Saturday morning show is so strange in retrospect. Did you watch that as a kid? Not regularly, but it's another thing where it's just kind of like in the in the stream and in the consciousness yeah i mean peewee's big adventure is tim burton's first movie i went on to be a huge tim burton fan in the 90s like so many other kids like me um and paul rubens was like a true one-of-one comedy mind and the sort of like almost atonal, awkward boyishness that he presented to audiences is so strange,

so unique. So it's still so exciting. Um, I can't remember which episode of 60 songs that explained the nineties it was, but Rob Harvilla did a, like, I thought a pretty masterful, um, tribute to Paul Rubens immediately after he passed away on his show as a sort of portal into talking about a song. It's in the last three episodes of the show. It was just fantastic. And people should listen to that if they want to hear something. But also Paul Reubens in many other things is wonderful. In Blow, he's wonderful. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the original, he's wonderful.

Like he was a great, on 30 Rock, he's hilarious. Like he was really just a great comic actor. So shout out to him. And then another guest in the show, Robbiebertson patron saint of all the classic rock boys out there you know we all grew up forcing the amandas of the world to watch the last waltz which would not exist without robbie i learned about robbie robertson's passing from our friend gilbert cruz oh yeah who texted me to let me know um and gilbert also gifted my son a last waltz onesie uh which we still have. It was like the exact

right size where Knox could wear it at six months, and I think he can still wear it. So, listen, I have mocked all of you for the number of times that I've had to see the last waltz in my life, and it's like a lot of times, but you can't deny the impact and the achievement. You can't deny it. You can't deny what an impact he had on Martin Scorsese and Martin Scorsese's career. One of his best friends, Robertson, did the score for Killers of the Flower Moon, which is coming later this year.

Robertson also had Native American heritage, and that is an overlooked aspect. He was a Canadian songwriter, but with the band, just created some of the best American music ever made. And is an artist who has a very complicated legacy because he was kind of hard charging and he had a real sense of self sometimes at the expense of his bandmates,

but truly an original and contributed a lot to movies, did a lot of really good scores and was kind of like a consigliere to Scorsese in the late 70s and the 80s. And you can kind of feel the influence of themes that maybe Scorsese wasn't exploring until they came along. So, you know, RIP to all three of those greats. Let's talk about the movies now. It's been long enough. I would not describe August as a banner month in movie going. So, it's probably good that we didn't have to grind out eight episodes this month, right?

It was intentional, right? Kind of. We anticipated. I think that we understood that Barbie and Oppenheimer would be an event, if not an event at the level that it has become. And then we understood traditionally August is slow and that you, Sean Fennessy, lose your mind a little bit. And it's been a long process of getting you to take some time off in August. And I just want to say here again in front of everyone,

I'm proud of you. Good job. Thank you very much. You did it. I actually did it this time. I know. This is my first podcast in a long time. It's wonderful. I feel good about it. Let's talk about Bottoms. So I mentioned that Emma's on the show. This movie is really interesting because there's not a lot of movies like this anymore. And there used to be movies like this all the time. And so when I was watching it, I was like,

this is a really weird movie. But then I was like, oh, but you know, Heathers and Jawbreaker and even Clueless and like these kind of high school comedies with odd tones are just so rare now that I was confused at first and then ultimately charmed by it. I was hugely entertained by it. I laughed at this movie probably more than any movie I've laughed at. Like, Barbie and Bottoms for me. I thought this was incredibly funny.

Great. It is still a little weird. And there are just like a couple things where it's like the idea for the set piece is animating the entire story rather than. The concluding set piece. Especially. Yeah. Rather than the other way around. But whatever.

It's really funny. It's a movie chugging towards a showdown for sure. Yes. them the other way around but whatever it's really funny um it's a movie chugging towards a showdown for sure yes and and how they get there doesn't make sense even in the kind of beautiful stoner like cynical world of that they've created which i love and want to spend as much time as possible in uh but no it's delightful i also had no idea kaya gerber was in this movie until she showed up and i was like wait a second is that kaya gerber and then kaya gerber just leans into uh being a parody of kaya gerber in in the movie which is funny i do want to discuss that i mean i will probably should explain what the movie is uh it's about two friends um played by rachel senate and io edabiri pj and josie they start

a high school fight club they're both gay and they want to meet girls and lose their virginity so it's got the same basic premise as any 80s high school romp but just flipped a little bit and then they realize that a fight club is kind of a dangerous idea and in fact creates a lot of chaos and then that chaos is then sewn throughout the rest of the movie um Kaia Gerber just is Cindy Crawford. It's bizarre. I mean, of course she is, but also it's just bizarre to be...

And I thought she was a much better actress than her mom. I'm going to put that out there. Wow. Having seen the film Fair Game. Okay. Starring Billy Baldwin. I just don't think that we needed to take a shot at Cindy Crawford as we were driving along.

A woman who is very important to me. And I appreciate her contribution. Are you excited about the Supermodels documentary? I will watch it. Will you? Of course. Come on. When have I not watched something?

Anytime I was interested in it. That's just not true. In fact, I watched something that you're interested in that we'll talk about today. Right. Have you finished The Crown yet? No. Yeah. Okay.

So there we go. I don't equate The Crown with the Supermodels documentary because I have a relationship to the Supermodels. Sure. Okay. And it is profound. It was powerful in the 90s. Sure. Who are the...

We're really on a tangent here. Yeah. So it's Cindy. Cindy. Claudia. No. Naomi. Naomi.

Linda. Linda. Christy. Christy. Christy. Is that it? What about, you know who I think is underrated is Stephanie Seymour. I would agree with you. I actually don't know like the full run of who's in the documentary or in the docu-series, I should say.

Claudia's not in it? I don't think that she's like a main star. Claudia wasn't high fashion in the same way. Oh yeah, She was guests. Yeah. Claudia, like, you know, Claudia wasn't in, she wasn't in Freedom, right? The George Michael video directed by David Fincher. Like, it's, you know, so it's, she's not in the like iconic Peter Lindbergh photos, I don't believe.

So I think that's like the clear definition. Also, the supermodels were recently on the cover of September Vogue to promote this series. And then they were just airbrushed, like, beyond all recognition, which is really disrespectful. And they're beautiful and they don't need that. And also, it just, like, looked really bad. I was like, what are you doing? These are four supermodels? Like, we know they can take good pictures.

Let's go back. Cindy, Naomi, Linda, and who was the fourth? Oh, Christy. Christy. Okay. How are you erasing Christy Turlington? I'm not erasing. It's funny that they all marry filmmakers.

Like Christy Turlington married Ed Burns, of course. Long Island Zone, the goat. Probably singing Piano Man right now somewhere. And Claudia Schiffer, didn't she marry Matthew Vaughn? Yes. I think she did. Yeah. And Cindy Crawford married George Clooney's business partner.

Yes. And founder of Casamigos. That's right right is Naomi Campbell single I believe so to my knowledge she's not publicly with someone

we're on a bit of a double tangent here but I did actually end up watching Invisible Beauty yeah the film that you recommended coming out

of Sundance which I thought was pretty good about Bethann Hardison and you know speaking of Naomi Campbell I thought so as well I thought it was interesting.

I just didn't know very much about what she contributed. Right. Which was a lot. And the archive or like the footage of the meetings and the inside the rooms is really quite fascinating. Yeah, there's a big showdown near the end of that film as well. It's very interesting. Bottoms is a lot of fun.

I think if people are looking for a fun high school romp with a little bit of a modern twist but not so much that it's you know gonna be inaccessible yeah i mean they're football players and i think they're cheerleaders a very notable football player who appears in another movie we're gonna talk about i am very we're gonna save it but let me just ask you were you familiar with nicholas glitzen before this stretch of films? No, but then I had dinner with a good friend who's very into, she's up on like the romance novel and romance adaptation world. And so she really caught me up to speed on everything that's going on. Okay. We're going to address that when we get there because I have actually realized something pretty meaningful about my own taste okay and about our discourse over the years too second

movie you did you actually see this movie yes i texted you i first of all i invited you you did you did i already seen and you didn't you couldn't come or you'd already seen it you didn't even you could have come maybe but you didn't and then i wouldn't see this movie twice and then i was the only person in the theater for the afternoon show actually yeah that's actually not true about 30 minutes in another woman my age walked in alone and uh also watched tm tmnt mutant mayhem so i i didn't follow up with what was going on there so this this is the seventh Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie that has been made.

There was the stretch of movies in the early 90s and the aftermath of the success of the comic books and animated series and action figures, all of which I was susceptible to, very much in the same zone

as He-Man, Transformers, all the other shit that's being fed back to me in my 40s. Then Michael Bay got his hands on these movies. And he produced a few in the 2010s. And then went away again. And now they're back.

And they're back shepherded by Seth Rogen. And Point Grey and his group. And this is an animated film. Now not live action. And it's been a pretty big success. You're just eating SmartPop on the podcast? Yeah. I mean, you know.

I just noticed that. I guess I heard it in my ears. And I know we're casual. I know how i just i just noticed that i guess i heard it in my ears and i know we're casual i know it's still summer does that mean i can have a fruit snack if you'd like to yeah this is a this is a hang episode you know our formalities are minimal we're just we're just let me talk about alpacas and peacocks honestly yes i'm letting you explore the studio space okay um i thought this movie was a lot of fun and i know why it's a big hit and it is a little bit of a kind of post spider verse movie but it also was kind of a cliche like existential crisis sean movie in many ways i wrote a very like agonized letterbox review of this movie because i had free

time and only because it just got me thinking about how weird it is to be experiencing all this stuff at this age to be 40 yeah 41 now i'm 41 now yeah yeah it's not just to be i won't say your age on the on the mic um it's not just to be 40 it's to be 40 people can add and subtract but it's okay can they is the question um you may be asking yourself that question next year uh you got less than a year what's your plan for you yeah i don't know how do i top movie star liquor taste i really don't know that was that actually is that i actually listened to that episode and i was like this is funny like i never listened to the pod ever i just wanted that was funny i i got a lot of positive feedback. Okay. But no one from Catherine Powers Beauty Company Merit has reached out.

So that's tough for me. Hard to believe they make it to hour two of that deranged podcast. Nevertheless, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is just like something that was very important to me when I was seven. And it's just very weird to be an adult man going to a movie theater alone for work to watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. This was also like the same thing as the Transformers thing. Tons of hip hop soundtrack drops, lots of jokes for the parents. I mean, I love Seth Rogen and that whole industry of movies that they've been making, both the hits and the misses. Like we just talked about Joyride, Longshot, even the movies that weren't big hits.

They just have something that I really connect to tonally but i feel this really overwhelming self-consciousness about just having my childhood regurgitated through the length my childhood regurgitated through the lens of my adolescence so it's like i when you're seven and 14 and then mashing those two things together and then being 40 and being like eat this now is really is a very odd proposition it doesn't change the quality of the film, which I think is pretty good for an animated movie about mutant ninja turtles. But it made me reflect a little bit on kind of what our culture is, if I'm being honest. I'm trying to not be melodramatic, but also be like direct about this. Even I had that moment sitting in the theater being like oh wow this is really people of our

age making this back for us because we have children now which are like all true things I interpret that a little bit more as just like wow we're old uh you know like it just it just happened and there are like sometimes that can be exhilarating when people of your age or people closer to your frame of reference generationally start being in charge and start making the things and things get made for you like i that like barbie is a great example of that uh in a in an exciting way at least for me um but yeah also we're old you know and and i i don't it's once once like ferris bueller was like the night time screening i that they they sneak out to i was like oh okay so i'm i'm like put me on the glacier the train

of thought that i was i followed my way down around this was not just quote unquote we're old but there's something happening simultaneously which is that the only way to kind of exert power for people our age, if they get power, is like this. Because I was thinking a lot about, you know, who was the president when I was enjoying the Ninja Turtles? It was probably Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton was like 43 when he was the president. Bill Clinton is how old right now? Take a guess. 75? He's 77. How old is Joe now? Take a guess. 75?

He's 77. How old is Joe Biden? 80 something? Well, I mean, sure. Like the world is run by a gerontocracy. Yes. Everybody who's old who has real power is old. Like, you know, people in their 70s and 80s run the world now, whereas people in their

40s and 50s used to run the world. And that's not the case anymore. So it's interesting that the little crevices of power that people, whereas people in their 40s and 50s used to run the world. And that's not the case anymore. So it's interesting that the little crevices of power that people can slide into in their 40s and 50s are places like making a Ninja Turtles movie.

And so I kind of had my wheels turning about. It's like, that's kind of sad to reflect on. It's not terrible. This is a pretty good movie. But, you know... I see where you're going. I will also say that

the last sort of movie gives you some time to go down those rabbit holes. Yeah, I actually did get a little bit bored. I did as well. I thought this movie was very charming. Yeah. And then because I was the only person in the theater and thus was not bothering anybody by Googling the voice cast of this movie. Great voice cast.

Yeah. But all of the Teenage Mutant Ninja mutant under turtles the headshots are of like you know 14 year olds and i was all real teenagers they're all so cute and i was just like this is adorable so i felt micah abby shaman brown jr nicholas cantu and brady noon they all were very charming um and iota berry also in this maya rudolph john cena seth rogan rose burn ice cube giancarlo esposito paul ruddd Post Malone Hannibal Buress great voice cast but yeah this had a similar problem

to a lot of movies like this which is like why is this basically like a massive oversized fight sequence like Godzilla scene in a movie that is otherwise like

super grounded and charming and sweet and basically like in a sewer that is technically a high school like

you know but that's movies now we'll get into that again soon. Thank you for indulging my... I wouldn't say it's an existential crisis, but it's more of a reflection of our times. I see where you're going. And I don't disagree,

but this is not where I decided to expend my existential issues. You have another one? I don't know. Do I? Maybe. Okay. Maybe.

We both saw Strays, which I was actually looking forward to, which is the new talking dog comedy that was just released over the weekend, directed by Josh Greenbaum.

I think it comes to us from the Lord & Miller company. It features the voices of some of my favorite folks, Will Ferrell, Jamie Foxx, Isla Fisher, Randall Park.

Did not think this movie was funny. Again, I've stepped outside to text you this time people have been like a little uh concerned truly about my movie theater behavior and i'm respectful i want everyone to know that i can i can i can confirm that i haven't seen many films with you but you know we also see like a huge number of films and sometimes i do have to step outside

to take a call from like you know about my kid because he threw up or whatever he's fine um i stepped outside to text you that this movie is incredibly mean to dogs and i hate it and i'm not even like number one dog person what so the movie is about stray dogs a group of dogs that effectively like pursue a kind of independence um well when you say it's mean to dogs, how do you mean? It's having a lot of fun at the... It's never putting dogs in danger. The dogs aren't unsafe or whatever. No animals were harmed, I'm sure.

In fact, I think these are very well-trained, great dog acting. Very good dog acting. I would like to salute all the dogs. But it's having a lot of the fun is at the expense of dogs. Sure. And I don't know, I've spent too much time recently around creatures that can't communicate with language, but have wants and needs and you're just trying to figure it out. And I didn't really feel that this film had empathy for the small creatures. I see. And I was like pretty pissed off about it. I also just didn't,

it was, it was a real cocaine bear experience of I'm watching a funny movie in, with other people and no one is laughing. Same. I had a very similar experience. Just no one is laughing. I had one guy who was laughing at too many jokes, which is actually also worse.

Yeah. There's just one person yelling. I, I, I agree. I just, I liked the bulldog stuff that was funny the the narrator no when the the narrating dog i thought was that was a very good joke do you know oh oh yeah no

that was really funny josh gad i believe is josh yeah i think so no um just the bit about the english bulldog who has the electric fence and then all the other dogs are like, it's only in your mind and then... Yes, that was really funny. That was really funny. Yes. There were a couple of good bits. Yeah.

For the most part, though. It was not really a movie. No. It kind of lacked the spine of a movie. Anyhow, did you end up seeing Blue Beetle? I did.

Oh, my goodness. I told you that I would and I did. Good for you. Thank you very much. So I saw it as well. This movie is directed by Angel Manuel Soto and it stars Sholomar Doña for you thank you very much so i saw it as well um this movie is directed by uh angel manuel soto

and uh it stars cholo marduena as uh a dc superhero this is the first ever latin american superhero movie where it's forward-facing which is historic in so many ways and yet the movie has also been pretty much discarded by its parent corporation because it finds itself ensnared in the middle of this transition from the DCEU to the new regime that James Gunn is about to take over. This is the second to last DCEU movie. This is the 15th of them. And I'll start by saying this. First 45 minutes of this movie, I was like, this movie is great. So charming.

All of the family stuff and the characters. Delightful. Pretty good script. Yeah. Very good cast. They don't spend too much time. Or if they did, it was so negligible that I zoned out. Like, weighing me down with backstory.

So the blue beetle becomes the blue beetle because of a scarab and something and i like i don't know what the mythology is i don't really care it didn't seem too obsessed with those things which was nice um and obviously it's you know the film takes place in miami and it features this community that is sort of like under siege kind of from you know the development the kind of aggressive encroachment of money and power in the city and that's kind of looming over everything the nice thing about a story like this is that this is not the first blue beetle like so many superheroes this is someone who is sort of inheriting the blue beetle title so there's a lot of teasing about what could come about the previous blue beetle and blue beetles in the future but it's not obsessed with any of those things but it does

unfortunately eventually just become the same effing superhero movie that we keep seeing over and over again which is just like noisy and loud and like kind of incoherent in the last hour and not fun and not fun like loses its sense of humor. The DC like visual garbage, like it's just really tough. They also clearly did not prioritize this even within the realm of their bad effects and, you know, bad cinematography. It just is very slapped together. All of the last stuff. Yeah. The last, the last hour or so I thought was really challenging. I thought, first of all, again, a lot of references to the 90s. If you grew up in the 90s, George Lopez,

just a staple of American culture. I thought he was really funny in this movie. And Susan Sarandon doing high camp as a villain, trying to have fun in a movie like this. And Mara Duenya, I thought, was really, really good, especially when he was allowed to be a person and didn't have to be a superhero

pushing forward in the story. When he was just a kid who graduated from college and wasn't sure what his life and career was going to be. I mean, you know,

it's a very similar framework. It's not so far afield from a Peter Parker, but he's a very charming actor. Yeah, very engaging. I really liked it. Very engaging. Then he has to wear

like a full body and face suit and it's a bummer. And then he's just CGI flying around for for a long stretch of time but i thought that there was like stuff to recommend about this one i agree with you and so i was a little disappointed that it it got derailed but i can't get this out of my head now we've talked about this many times over the years but like what is the playbook with every movie

having the same previs noisy fight that leads to a one-on-one showdown that doesn't ultimately resolve itself. Every movie that is in this genre does this now. Every movie. It just, because it's like an assembly line, right? And they're just trying to pump these things out. But they're human beings who are making these movies. There's not one time when a producer or a director or an executive is like, what if we just turn the dial to the left? Like, every movie needs to end with a crash, bang, noisy, gloppy set piece.

I don't know. This was another one where I was like, you guys kind of botched the good vibes and the early goings of this movie. I agree with that as well, but I also went in just being like, well, there's going to be a certain amount of DC garbage attached to this. And this also, you know, to your point does seem a little forgotten by the powers that be at Warner Brothers and

DC, which is a real shame. And so I was pleasantly surprised by everything that they actually managed to achieve within what seemed like sort of an abandoned project. Yeah, I agree. That's not necessarily a recommendation, but it's not a pan for sure.

Yeah. Did you get out to Passages? I sure did. So Passages is the new film from Ira Sachs, really a stalwart in independent cinema in the last 25 years. It's about a gay couple whose marriage is thrown into crisis when one of them

impulsively begins a passionate affair with a young woman. The stars of this movie, Franz Rogowski, Ben Whishaw, and Adele Exarchopoulos. It's just one of the hottest movies of the year. Yeah. So, pun, like, not intended, actually,

but also, I suppose it works out. During this screening, I saw this at the new landmark Pasadena, which I... Oh, I have not yet been. My new favorite movie theater. Oh, great. Really lovely. Right next to Romans,. Oh, great. Really lovely.

Right next to Romans, one of the great bookstores. Right next to Romans, which is tough for my pocketbook. And then on the other side, this is important to my story, it's right next to a Blaze Pizza. Oh, yes. Which apparently, as one of the lovely employees at Landmark Pasadena put it, blazed too hard in the middle of our screening. And so all the fire alarms went off.

Oh, no. But just for a minute. And I thought they handled it so beautifully. Like we all went out in the lobby. They were like, let us go check. And then they came back and they were like, sorry, it's Blaze Pizza. Just like really over delivering. Are you sure it wasn't the hot fuck action in the middle of passages that set off those

We were actually in the theater like closest to Blaze Pizza so I can't say for sure. So I think I missed like maybe three minutes of fucking at some point during this movie but I still I saw Pliny.

Yeah this is an unusually sexually forward film and it did actually get ensnared in a kind of controversy because the MPAA wanted to rate it. NC-17

Ira Sachs declined that and the movie went out unrated. ensnared in a kind of controversy because the MPAA wanted to rate it. NC-17, Ira Sachs declined that and the movie went out unrated. It's very good. I saw it out of Sundance. I recommended it out of there. The Franz Rogowski character is just truly chaotic. I mean, he is

incredible concoction. It's so good. It is such a specific and hilarious performance. We all know a guy like that but you know someone like that and it and it gets at how those people still manage to exist in the world because like there is something so compelling and like charismatic about what's going on with him that he just gets up to all sorts of nonsense. He manages to accrue forgiveness in an unusual way given the things that he does. This is one of the best movies of the year. I

really like this movie a lot. It's so good. It'll probably be on movie streaming in the late fall, I would guess. So if it's already moved on from your local movie theater or your independent theater, check it out when it comes to streaming. All right, let's talk about Red, White, and Royal Blue because this might actually be the most popular movie that was released in August. It is kind of a streaming phenomenon on Prime Video right now. It's based on the 2019 novel Red, White, and Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston.

And then I guess I read in the New York Times became the subject of a book talk phenomenon. I think so. I think it was early book talk. Okay. I read this book in 2019. I think... Did TikTok exist then?

I do believe it did. Okay. But I don't think book talk really had the presence that it did. Or I should say, I'll just speak for myself. I was not learning about it from book talk. Okay. It had like a larger online thing in it, but it was enough of a phenomenon that I got on board. I am neither on TikTok nor BookTok. And I found the book. I mean, it's just a tried and true romance novel, which is not always my

cup of tea, but I found it very charming. And I thought the writing was memorably funny, which these things are not always. So it became a phenomenon. So I thought that I would check it out. I just, I'm of two minds about this because I could just be like, well, now we're just making Hallmark movies for streaming. And obviously Netflix has been doing that for several years with like the Christmas Prince

and like all of its romantic or rom-com ish films aimed at a younger audience and this is amazon just trying to get a piece of that and that's like the production levels and that's just that's just what it's going to be and it's successful so fine or i can just this can be my existential just like what the fuck like why can't you make something intriguing okay well let's put a little bit of context on the movie for listeners so if you if you're not familiar with this movie um it's got a kind of a pretty clever premise alex claremont diaz is the first son of the united states he's the son of the first woman president of the united states and there is a kind of Prince Harry character,

a second son in a royal family named Prince Henry. And they meet at, you know, world global affairs parties and dinners, and they fall in love. And then the nature of their affair is kind of explored in the film. But it is portrayed as sort of like a very light comedy slash pure romance. It is not, it's neither rom-com nor drama. No. And I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this for a variety of reasons.

I will say before you get into that, the thing that it made me realize is you always say like you don't actually like rom-coms, which is not true. I actually like rom-coms a lot. Yeah. I do not like romance movies. Nor do I. So that's the difference. And I agree with you and I don't like romance movies and I don't love the romance book genre, even though it's been like very successful and in a lot of ways that I think are good in the sense that it serves audiences who aren't otherwise reading and it's

you know like a very diverse group of writers and like fan driven like cool that's great um I I genuinely think that's great but there is something about the structure which is always like two people really like each other they they have sex pretty early and then they just are like I don't know, should we be together? Like, for the whole, it's so annoying. And we know you're going to be together. There are no stakes.

Just the most inert storytelling imaginable. And like, obviously, there are parts of this story that are interesting, right? Uma Thurman, I thought in a very bad performance, played the president of the United States doing a Texas accent

that I thought was terrible. It's like she's doing a parody of if Joan Allen and Nixon were Nixon. It's like really confusing. It's an incredible take. But, you know, just setting it in like

the world stage with politics, I think, you know, amplifies the stakes for the movie. Yes, of course. And I think that the two leads are interesting. I'm not sure stakes for the movie. Yes, of course. And I think that the two leads are interesting. I'm not sure if they're good. No, they're not. Taylor, Zekar, Perez, and Nicholas Glitzen. And obviously, it's a gay love story, right? Yeah. So, you know,

there's something a little bit different about that in general. And the fact that, you know, movies like Bottoms and movies like Red, White, and Royal Blue are kind of at the center of movie culture is notable. Passages, too. Like is this is notable that stories like this are getting financed and told and seen by people it doesn't change the fact that what you just said which is like every movie like this is the same movie and you could say the same is true for a comic book movie or a mission impossible movie but there's there's nowhere to go in a story like this other than these two people have to end up together and be happy and if they don't then it's usually a tragedy so i just feel really bored by the complete lack of driving stakes on a movie like this i generally agree with you and it's why i don't even really

enjoy like the good versions of the genre of which i I think there are many, and we should talk about that at the end of this and about Nicholas Scott's team. But I think this is, this makes me mad because it's a missed opportunity in terms of there are different stakes. Now, are the stakes ridiculous? Like, is it the, you know, president's son and Prince Harry, like, in an international love affair, like, with domestic incidents. And, you know, but, like, there is, like, the queer romance and the coming out element. There is, like, the international politics. They do just a terrible job of working in, like, the election and Texas electoral politics.

And poor Uma Thurman, that's why she has the Texas accent. And, you know, it's the it's the lowest possible execution of things that could at least look a little better like there could be some better chemistry and honestly like a little bit of heat between the two characters which respectfully like there is not yeah um there could be a little more tension or sophistication around the political and like the stuff. You know, I don't know. It doesn't have to be. Says Lady Sorkin.

Yeah, that's your Sorkin coming out. Well, sure. Why is this movie a huge hit? Because of the built-in fan base of Red White and Royal Blue the book and BookTok and also because of

Nicholas Galitzin I think well I so tell me about him I don't know anything about him so I I didn't either he plays

Prince Henry which is Prince Harry's real legal name just in case is it? yeah he's Henry Harry's a nickname

great and not a herald no okay no he's Henry. Harry's a nickname. Great. Not a Harold? No. Okay. No, he's just Henry. That's okay. Why would he be Prince Harold?

I don't know. Harold. Again, you've read some Shakespeare in your life. I know you tried to forget it, but there are a lot of Henrys. Yeah. They recycle names. I like when they call Henry Hal.

I do too, but they never did that. They just call him Harry. They also call Henry Harry in, in, um, the Crispin's Day speech,

I believe. Oh, okay. Great. Um, anyway. What's that, Henry V?

I believe so. Okay. Okay. Anyway, we're gonna get it wrong. I got, like, a lot of people in my life.

A lot of people. At least two people. 78. At least two people. And we're like, I can't believe you mixed up John Donn and john milton and it's just like i got dunked on i'm a human you know why you got dunked on because i was dunking on you but listen there is your error here's the thing be more generous mine was a name mix-up off the top of my head i was mixing up two english poets from like the 16th century ish okay okay and you were putting things in the bible that weren't even in the bible okay so

you're way off the mark but i'll let you continue okay nicholas gazeltine in addition to being in bottoms and he plays the like really dumb, and he's pretty funny in it. Yes, he pursues an affair with the hottest woman alive, which is, I enjoyed that part. Yeah. He is also already a romance streaming stalwart. He was in a movie called Purple Hearts, which was apparently a thing and my then my friend Claire was explaining all of this to me also an Amazon film yes um and he is going to be the lead in the adaptation of The Idea of You do you know about this I do not so The Idea of You is um a

huge romance hit and it is essentially I mean names are not named but it's it's a Harry Styles character um and

it's a a woman my age starts dating a Harry Styles-esque character okay um and this is

we already saw that movie it's called Notting Hill okay well I think the age difference is like slightly anyway um and is this inspired by Olivia Wilde and Harry Styles as movie it's called notting hill okay well i think the age difference is like slightly anyway um and is this inspired by olivia wilde and harry styles is no i believe it predates it intriguing

you think they read that and we were like we want this is like this is like a really this was a sensation okay in the in the romance world and so the idea of you the idea of you. The idea of you. And so it is now being turned into a movie directed by Michael Showalter. Oh, okay. Starring Anne Hathaway in the Woman Amanda's Age category. Damn. I believe I have cast the Amanda story with Anne Hathaway. In the Harry Styles-esque role is Nicholas Gadsden. Okay.

So he is apparently the guy guy okay well then that's must be part of it i i think he's okay he's fine yeah i i mean i the the movie doesn't serve him but will he be on 35 under 35 i don't know can i read you something else i found on his wikipedia page today gazeltine was born in london whatever um he is a direct descendant of the russian princely family house of gossel sit goss gotletsen galitsin galitsin you might know this because that's a name that is used in the mission impossible franchise his father and grandfather are styled as prince galitsin galitsin galitsin was one of the noblest and old prominent princely houses of the sardom of Russia and the Russian Empire.

They were exiled. The family, which rose to prominence in the 5th century. I don't know. And they also reigned in the kingdoms of Poland, Hungary, and Bohemia. It's very extensive on his... So he's well cast in Red, White, and Royal Blue. I guess so. It feels like someone in the family updated this themselves.

I really didn't care for Red, White, white and royal blue i really didn't either it felt like the pinnacle of the wallpaper movie watching experience you know where it's like it's so soft focus and low stakes and beautiful people having mild confusion about whether or not things are going to work out and i just was like i don't care but it's like that would all be fine if it could be written with like any wit or well if it were like if it were beautiful soft focus as opposed to whatever is going on i i agree i mean in case you think i am um only downgrading a movie like that for the, I have the same problem with the next movie, The Last Voyage of the Demeter, which is very similarly underwritten, you know, interestingly staged, but kind of bungled movie that we, the likes of which

we don't see that much, which is, this is a period horror movie. There has not been a period horror movie hit in a very long time in this country. As I was watching this movie, which is directed by Andre Averdahl and is notably adapted from the very first chapter of Bram Stoker's Dracula,

which takes place on, it's sort of the captain's log of a doomed ship traveling from Bulgaria to England. I just ate a fruit snack because I don't think I'm going to be talking for a while. Transporting Dracula. They're transporting a vampire.

Now, the movie sold itself that way. This was like the birth of a monster legend. At the beginning of the movie, there's a title card that says, this is taken from the captain's log from Bram Stoker's dracula this is the opening stages of dracula like something so clearly stakes lowering that the whole time you're watching it you're like okay so dracula's coming imagine if they released this

movie and never used the words dracula on the promotion now nerds like me who have read dracula would have known but if they would have tried to hide it and make it more of like a master and commander kind of a movie and then fucking Dracula showed up an hour and a half in, you'd be like, holy shit, this is a really cool idea. The movie is like well staged,

but the characters are really poorly written. You don't really care about anybody. You don't really understand what anybody's doing there. There's some good actors. You know,

Corey Hawkins is in it. My beloved Liam Cunningham from Game of Thrones is in it. The Onion Knight, I loved him. David Asmalkian, who's like professionally a bad guy in movies.

He's in Oppenheimer. He's in The Suicide Squad, a number of other movies. But the same issue that I had with Red, White, and Royal Blue I had with this movie, which is like, I don't care. Like, I don't really care. I know all these people are going to get killed in this boat. And then I know Dracula is going to show up on the shores and wreak havoc. And then Jonathan Harker and Van Helsing and Mina Harker and the whole gang from Dracula are going to show up.

And so it's just two hours of like poorly lit boredom on a boat. And it's too bad because Dracula rules. This is the second Dracula movie that Universal has produced this year after Renfield. That is not a hit. I don't know why they're doing this. Dracula is one of the coolest characters in the history of literature. Let's just stop making movies,

boring movies about Dracula. Top three coolest things about Dracula. Go. One, his whole story is a metaphor for fucking. Two, he is hot. Three, he's always got bad bitches by his side. Come on. He's Dracula.

What are we talking about here? No, I just, I don't understand. There's so many fun ways to do Dracula. Why do we have these really bad Draculas? I'm bummed out. Is it okay? I, you did great. I didn't see this movie because you were like, yeah, it's a period Dracula movie.

And that's like, cool. Like I'm going on vacation. Bye. Okay. I'm going to keep talking because you know why because the next movie you saw all right this is this is your choice so do you like grapefruit snacks grape is my favorite really do you want these yes you don't eat grape no I don't like the grape ones you're sliding them over to me the way you might slide over like cards well because you're a germaphobe so I wanted to I wanted you to understand that I hadn't touched the grape ones. I'm chewing on grapefruit snacks and I'm trying to relax

as I tell you about Sound of Freedom. Now, Sound of Freedom is after Barbie and Oppenheimer, the movie sensation of summer 2023. It is an extraordinary story from a box office perspective. At this moment of recording, it has earned nearly $180

million in the United States. And that is just a staggering number for a movie that comes from Angel Studios that is independently financed. It was originally funded by Fox, and then Disney offloaded it when the Fox merger took place. So this was a film without a home. Angel took it on. Now, the film, of course, has been talked about a lot. There was an interesting episode of the town exploring the phenomenon of the success of the movie. Angel Studios is a faith-based studio that pushes a lot of Christian stories. And then there has been this association with the QAnon movement around this movie because the plot of the film is around child trafficking. And then, of course, in the QAnon conspiracies, there is a lot of child trafficking conspiracy theorizing. The movie

is not really a QAnon movie in any way. It does start Jim Caviezel, who is a proponent of some very dangerous and upsetting ideas. And I don't really care for the things that he does in public. But the movie itself is basically what I wrote down here is it's triple frontier meets like a particularly grim episode of Law and Order SVU. There's some upsetting child trafficking stuff in it, especially in the first 45 minutes of the movie. But it mostly just becomes a kind of action movie, not even an action movie. It's more of like a procedural thriller with a couple of action moments. And it's not bad. It's not particularly good. There's just, there's dozens of movies like this

that come out every year. It has a couple of things that are going for it in my perspective. One, it has about 10 to 12 minutes of Bill Camp that is some of the best shit you're ever going to see. His character in this movie, and I do not want to spoil it for anybody who is actually interested in seeing Sound of Freedom,

but I don't know if it's like moral or ethical or whatever, but it just fucking rules what Bill Camp is up to in this movie. And you just don't see this in these like weird, certainly not in faith-based films, and certainly not in any films from Angel Studios, and certainly not in Jim Caviezel movies. movies but he's just cooking up something very peculiar and very entertaining but also with like very upsetting kind of undertones into it put that out there and then the fucking weird thing is that when the movie ends an image comes on the screen and it says wait two minutes for a special message from jim caviezel then jim caviezel comes on and he's like did you like this movie it's really important child trafficking is fucking destructive and ruining people's lives around the world. You need to take a picture of this QR code and pay it forward and buy a ticket for someone else to see this so that they get the message out about the horrors of this world and why

this movie matters. And it worked because people were doing it. I saw the movie four weeks after it was released in theaters, five weeks after it was released in theaters, 2 p.m. screening in Century City, half full. There were actually people there. So the theories of like, no one's going to this, not the case. Right.

Though 2 p.m. Century City suggests that the half of the theater was filled with other people who are adjacent to the industry or of the industry being like, what's going on here? Entirely possible. Entirely possible. I will say the other fascinating thing about this experience is the trailers that play before Angel Studios films are very different from the trailers you might see before Barbie.

I'll bet. I'm not sure you've heard of any of the movies that were being promoted ahead of this movie. Most of them look pretty poor. There was one of them that was kind of like a faith-based Christopher Nolan movie that was kind of fascinating. You gonna check it out? I might. I'm trying to get the totality of the movie-going experience. I am kind of perversely fascinated by whatever the hell happens next for Alejandro Gomez Monteverde, the director.

Angel Studios, like, they could have never predicted in their wildest dreams that this movie would be as successful as it is. Because it's just like, it's just kind of a nothing movie. You know, like it's like it's a thriller. The bad guys get caught. And then they send a stern message at the end of the film about how dangerous this world is. You've seen this movie a hundred times. But the pay it forward thing at the end is new and is credited with a lot of the at least box office success whether people are using the tickets or not that is how the tickets are being purchased yes um and it may

be that the tickets are being used and like and that's fine it's just that that that is not what happens at the end of most other movies you go see in a movie theater no i i think what's relevant to consider is you know if you look for a movie like this, like it doesn't have nearly as many logs on Letterboxd as Red, White, and Royal Blue, but there's just different audiences for things, you know? And like in the same way that I don't know if it would have even made sense to do like a Sound of Freedom episode where we broke down the qualities of the film in any meaningful way, because I don't think that there's necessarily an audience that is seeking our kind of commentary about it.

But it's the same reason that we never covered the Big Bang Theory. You know, it's sort of like, there are different modes of popularity in the world. Of course, we understand that. This movie, I don't think it was saddled necessarily with its kind of QAnon branding. Because there is some real correlation there between the fandoms and the way that these films are promoted. Also that the star who is associated with QAnon shows up at the end of the movie to say, this is real and please give your money. The movie though doesn't go out of its way to,

like there's nothing about QAnon in the movie. You know, there's not like, this is exactly how this happens and this is how Hunter Biden is involved in it. Like it's not, it's just, that's not what the movie is. It's clearly, this movie was made before Joe Biden was elected president. You know what I mean?

So there is certainly associations. There's no doubt about it. I'm not even really defending it because I didn't really like the movie that much, but it's a fascinating little artifact of our culture right now that something like this can become successful when so many other things are not successful.

When like DC movies are actively bombing hard in theaters and somehow this movie is going to go on and make nearly $200 million. It just feels worth acknowledging. Yeah, no, of course. Do you think that people will try to replicate the pay it forward? Yeah, I do.

I mean, I wonder if like mainstream studios will be trying to do the very same thing. I mean, here's a message from Greta Gerwig about why you need to pay Barbie forward. I, you know, that seems like it's worth trying. I do think that these kind of passionate communities are more likely to do, to be activated than your just typical mainstream movie going audience checking out Blue Beetle on a Friday.

This is a different, you know, they view like art as being correlated to their spiritual life yeah of course community life and making that all this kind of like this holistic experience whereas most people if they're going to see strays they don't need to see will ferrell telling them to pay forward strays after they've seen it you know what i'm saying right but it's just like the barbie and oppenheimer conversation what will holly Hollywood do to try to replicate? Exactly. And also just that there is like an extra piece to the movie itself that is always essential to

a level of box office success. Yes. Marketing is everything, right? That's what it means. That's actually an interesting kind of pivot point too,

I think, for Heart of Stone because while I don't really support any of the associated ideas around Sound of Freedom like from the people who are promoting it. It's a better movie than Heart of Stone, which is crazy to say, but Heart of Stone's

this new Netflix movie, an action film directed by Tom Harper, starring Gal Gadot. And you made a note here that you really want to talk about this because it's just not it's kind of alarming how not good it is i was astonished and i'm i made i said in the note and i know at this point that we are expect netflix like the the blockbuster section of movies made for netflix to be of a of a different quality than the blockbusters that we see in theaters and celebrate on this podcast. And it's like not that interesting. We yelled about Red Notice. We yelled about the Gray Man.

Is that what it's called? Yep. There are others that we've yelled about or been like, whatever. I understand in some sense it's like boring. But I was like shocked by how bad this is to the point where we need to talk a little bit more about how incredibly bad it is i'm i'm stealing this thought from someone i want to say it's the critic matt singer i think i saw him make this note but this occurred to me when i was watching it as well so the premise of the movie is like what if the quant who sits in the truck for a spy team

is actually james bond and the spy team doesn't know it that's like the big twist that happens about 40 minutes into the movie but that's big twist number one right there are others but that that's like the movie's kind of premised upon that framework. But Gal Gadot like looks like Gal Gadot. So like what, how can you like make us try to trick us into thinking that she's just like, this is the she's all that of spy movies. Right. Like she's fucking Gal Gadot. Like that's Wonder Woman in the truck.

Like are we really expected to think that she's not going to be able to fight a bad guy and be good on her feet in a tough situation? Like the thing is just so harebrained and it's in its execution right i mean it lasts like 15 minutes before they reveal it i i would also say that like casting to to subvert expectations is across the board an issue here i like jam like, Jamie Dornan is in this movie. And without spoiling it, I'm sure you can guess why. Yeah. It's like, it just, but no one's trying. Or no one is trying.

So she's, not only is she James Bond, and that part is pretty ludicrous, but like, fine, if it were just that, oh, she's James Bond and no one else knows and and then she has to save the day but be undercover, it could have been bad, but I would have happily watched the whole thing. But then it turns out that she is James Bond on behalf of the AI system that has been developed for good to save the world. And that actually the only way that we as a society are going to make it through is if we let the heart, which is AI, make all of the moral and rational decisions for us because it knows what is best.

That's another thing that is a failure of this movie is that technically, linguistically, this movie should probably be called The Stone of Heart. Yes. Instead of The Heart of Stone. Yes. Because her character's name is Stone. Right.

Another problem. Is that why the movie got made? Because they're like, we have a really good play on words here. Another problem is that they then have to visualize the AI and the heart and how it's working. And I couldn't help but notice after having seen the film, there was a commercial for Heart of Stone, like during some sporting event. because at no point was the AI or the visualization of the world and how Gal Gadot would be maneuvering through it ever shown in the trailer. It's like it didn't exist. This is just a depressing film.

It's really depressing. You just also have to laugh at Netflix putting out the no, but the AI is for good movie at this moment in time. Just pointing it out. There are tiers of exceptional, mediocre, awful, particularly across the action movie spectrum at Netflix.

There was a new John Cena, Jackie Chan movie that was near the top of their list recently that I checked out and I was like, this is fine. Similarly, I thought the old guard a Jackie Chan movie that was like near the top of their list recently that I checked out and I was like, this is fine. Yeah. It's not like, it's just similarly like, you know, I thought The Old Guard was not great, but it was fine.

I liked Extraction. They've made a few movies. And this script is from the same person who wrote The Old Guard, right? And it does have Old Guard. I didn't think

The Old Guard was perfect, but they tried. They tried, yeah. And this just feels, I mean, this movie is directed by Tom Harper who made Wild Rose, which I loved, and The Aeronauts, which I didn't think The Old Guard was perfect, but they tried. They tried, yeah. And this just feels, I mean, this movie is directed by Tom Harper, who made Wild Rose, which I loved, and The Aeronauts, which I didn't think was very successful, but he's directed episodes of Peaky Blinders. Like, this is a very experienced professional filmmaker. This movie is terrible. It's astonishing.

Just really bad. Did you see Dreamin' Wild? I did. You did? I did, because I really liked Love and Mercy, and it's directed by Bill Polhot, who also directed Love and Mercy. Yeah, so he's carving out an interesting niche for himself, as here are some musicians who I'm super interested in, and I'm just going to tell their life stories.

In this case, it is a slightly lower wattage than Brian Wilson. This is Donnie and Joe Emerson, who are these two brothers who recorded this record in the Pacific Northwest in the 1970s and were kind of never heard from again until the wonderful record label Light in the Attic, I guess, stumbled upon their recordings and then reissued them. And then, you know, their song Baby in particular, but many other songs that Donnie wrote and that Joe played on went on to become kind of like these fetish objects, these kind of new discoveries. And I thought this was a really interesting movie about something you don't usually see in movies like this, which is like a tortured, inert artist

who can't get out of his own way and also isn't a hero. And the movie, I thought it like resolved itself in a fascinating way where it was sort of like, yep, this guy's pretty nuts about his music. But it doesn't change the fact that his music is great.

And it's like, it was slightly different spin on Brian Wilson, who like I think is portrayed in some cases as sort of like a victim and somebody who was really struggling with something internally

and has gone through like, you know, has some parental issues. The Emersons are like very different. The two brothers are very different. The way that they were raised

is very different. You can see why Polat is interested in the characters. I don't know where we're at with Casey Affleck. Are we allowed to love Casey Affleck?

Because he's fucking just an amazing actor. He is an amazing actor and this paired with just the random Oppenheimer like cameo. It's quite a one-two yeah for Casey Affleck summer I don't really know where where we are as a as a as a people

on that I genuinely I'm not sure I do know Walton Goggins is universally beloved and for a very good reason he plays a very sweet man in this movie um Zoe Deschanel shows up as the wife. Congratulations to her on her engagement to the Property Brother. Yeah, which one? Do you think I can tell them which one? Jim Property? Is that his name?

Billy Property? I don't know their names. I thought Beau Bridges was also good in this. Yeah. He was sort of doing the nice guy version of his dad role from Jerry Maguire, which I enjoyed. My word is stronger than oak.

So, were you in a band? Uh, not really. Not really. I played in some bands, but not really. Okay. Um, but you, there's nothing that you can, like, did you write a comic book as a kid? Like what? Something from your childhood.

Are you exploring the absolute desiccated husk of my lack of creativity? No, no, no, no. I'm trying to, I'm trying to ask you how you would respond if some of your teenage output... Yeah, I'm going to tell you something really funny right now. There's a friend of mine. We made a few videos when we were growing up. He was really more the filmmaker. But there's one called Sean Fantasy Manor Myth.

Are you familiar with this? I've heard about this, yeah. And I actually, I re-obtained a copy of it recently. And I watched it and it was pretty funny. It was sort of like a, somewhere between like an E! True Hollywood story and a behind the music rendition of things that I did and was in high school. Right. But it's not. Including.

It's outsized. Friendliest? It's kind of the inverse of that. It's like sort of me as a monster in high school. And it's kind of the inverse of that it's like sort of me as a monster in high school um and it's very funny my friend ryan who really kind of conceived it and and directed it and everything he really was using me as like his marilyn monroe and many of these projects okay oh wow but uh that's probably the closest i came okay so if someone discovered shauna fantasy manor myth and they were like you're the new christopher guest i would be excited okay i would be pumped do you have anything like that no i don't nothing, you're the new Christopher Guest, I would be excited. Okay. I would be pumped.

Do you have anything like that? No, I don't. Nothing? No. But you're very artistic. Yeah, but I wasn't like doing the creating. Okay. I was, you know, either like playing Beethoven or whatever. But I don't think I would handle it well.

Because it would, well, I mean, I certainly get ashamed of like anything I've done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. People acknowledging anything I've done people acknowledging anything I've done yeah totally so I think that would be like the primary issue

it wouldn't be more I don't have enough ownership over anything that like I created to be like no it needs to be like this and you know did you dig these tunes

yeah I did actually were you familiar with Baby before this I wasn't oh it's really it's a jam it's a nice song they cloned Tyrone i saw it good for

you you really did the fucking listen this is what happens that's great we have time i know i know we're restored we're refreshed this is kind of the inverse to me of the netflix thing which is not to say that this is a perfect movie but i felt like human beings made this yes i agree and the and the vibe and the style and the world like and performances were spot on. It's really hard toel Taylor. This is his featured directorial debut. He co-wrote it with Tony Rettenmeier. Stars John Boyega, Teyona Paris, and Jamie Foxx.

Love me some Teyona Paris. Really cool to see her in this setting playing this character. It's sort of like a Richard Matheson or Stephen King sci-fi, pulpy horror story about cloning and a government conspiracy, but shot through the lens of like kind of blaxploitation,

kind of like almost like post-mocking blaxploitation, like movies like The Mac. Lots of 90s influence as well in the movie. Lots of like, I could feel like Luc Besson and John Carpenter movies. A lot of cool stuff that I'm really into. Dynamite Jamie Foxx performance. Thought he was really funny as like a kind of pimp character in this movie. And Boyega, he's having a very odd career

because he's wonderful in that episode of Small Axe. Of course, became famous on the heels of Star Wars and the revival of that franchise. But hasn't done a ton since that. And he's a really, he's like a sturdy set of shoulders to carry a film. I don't think he was originally

meant to be the lead in this. I can't recall who the lead was. It might have been Lakeith Stanfield. And then they made a change. But I'm intrigued by Jewel Taylor. I look forward to seeing what he does next because this was pretty cool. Yeah, this was also

just like a watch watch this space and watch everything that comes very much did you watch River Wild no I didn't okay I'll talk about this very quickly to wrap up

this is I guess a remake slash side sequel to the 1994 film The River Wild starring Meryl Streep and Kevin Bacon which is just an absolute heater if you haven't seen The River Wild starring Meryl Streep and Kevin Bacon which is just an absolute heater

if you haven't seen The River Wild. Incredible film. Love that movie about a whitewater rafting guide who is effectively taken hostage

and then he has to go down the river with this evil group of men. Where are you on whitewater rafting? I've done it. Pro or con? Do you like it?

Do you? It's pretty challenging. Yeah. And I'm in a kind of fragile state these days. Oh, okay. So it's a physical concern for you?

I think so. Yeah. You mean mentally? I have anxiety about it. I've never told you this story. This movie will not do wonders for you then. Well, for me,

it's more, you know, I love the ocean, the rough surf. Do you like the river? Not really my jam. You know, I like being, I like rough surf. Do you like the river? Not really my jam. You know, I like being by them. Rivers like lakes. I'm a little bit like, what's at the bottom here, you know?

But not in the bottom of the ocean? Well, I can't get there, you know? There's so many more dangerous things at the bottom of the ocean. I got stung by a jellyfish, and here I am. So I'm not afraid of the ocean. Like 40 years ago? What are you talking about? No, like two weeks ago.

Yeah. That'll kill you. Well, I just, you know. Was that your first stink, getting stung by a jellyfish no but i just why did you share that because i'm not afraid okay because i like i faced the ocean and i was not defeated fair enough there's no jellyfish in the river i know but i it's more just like creepy crawly stuff you know okay um worms i'm not even that afraid of worms you know i'm not really afraid of bugs you are i'm not you know i i don't know i think it's really just like the muck and i don't there's also like i it feels like it can be polluted more easily i don't know

at sea with amanda dobbins coming soon but but the the whitewater rafting is about the ferocity of the current. Yes. You know? And also probably having to navigate difficult situations as a team. I don't trust everybody else. Fair. But anyway, right after college, I went to visit a friend in Santa Fe. And we all went.

And we were going to go whitewater rafting. And I was very nervous about this. So I let my friend know. And then I let the guide know on the bus way there. I was like, you know, I'm pretty nervous. Like, I don't know whether I want to be like on the front lines. Is there like a safer place in the boat that you can put me? And he's like, no problem. We'll just put you in the middle. And I was like, okay, great. So then we, and I, we get there and then the river is like two feet high and it's like a floating situation, but I've already been assigned the middle. So I just like floated down the river.

It's really good. It was a very special Amanda time. So you will not be whitewater rafting anytime soon. No, but I had a nice time on that trip. I don't think you should watch River Wild if that concerns you. This is kind of a weird one because it's... We already saw this movie. And this is like kind of the same movie.

Not necessarily. But also, they don't make movies like this anymore. Yeah. So I enjoyed it. I see that Adam Brody and Leighton Meester are in it together. That's nice. Very sweet. And a surprisingly direct to dramatic performance, T Killam former SNL star it's it's

it's about some dangerous shit that happens on a whitewater rafting trip I don't want to give away too much it has been a very popular movie on

Netflix it was not produced by Netflix but they acquired it right out of the shoot so you can stream it there this is kind of a Sean and CR classic in the

making okay it's just it's really gnarly at times. Mm-hmm. Kind of upsetting. Pretty well made on a, on a, not a very big budget.

No, like, real stars, but just some people that I'm like, I want to be around those people for two hours. Leighton Meester,

I feel like, just underrepresented in our culture. I agree with you. Would happily watch a movie with her every year. I agree. Kind of an interesting actor,

actually, and not just the gal from Gossip Girl. Anyway, this was kind of solid for a slow August. Are you feeling like September's going to be fun?

I'm excited. Okay. We have big, big, big travel plans coming up. Sure do. Big travel movie plans. We do. I travel movie plans.

We do. I guess we'll get into that more next time we meet. The next time we meet, we'll be drafting. So it'll be an interesting energy. You ready? Yes, I am ready because Chris has like a whole rundown of things that he wants to talk about, including the Oppenheimer, just the sex scenes review or just not the sex scenes review. Let's do a sex scene discourse at the top of our podcast. We're going to do that.

There's some amazing JMO content today. We've been texting about it all morning. I know, I know. And I was just like, I'm just going to put a pin in it. We will discuss it during the draft. It is mana from heaven on the JMO front. I do have some responses to Garbage Fish. Not Garbage Fish, but more Chris's ocean updates.

I see. Okay. Well, Amanda, so great to be back with you. Great to see you. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Emma Seligman back on the show new film called Bottoms hi Emma how are you I'm good how are you doing just dandy um before I think the world had seen Shiva Baby, I think Bottoms was in motion, was it not? Had you written it already? Yes, we had written, Rachel, Senna, and I, a couple drafts at that point. We started writing it when I started writing Shiva Baby.

Did you have a big plan for your multiple genre pursuit in your career? Were you like, I'm gonna do my high school comedy, I'm do my medieval epic or is this just a specific kind of story that you wanted to tell um it really was just a specific kind of story and i think it really came out of wanting to collaborate with rachel and and this movie just reflects her sensibilities and her sense of humor um so much um and we just liked each other so much on Shiva baby. And when we met on the short film for that, and I think that out of all the ideas in my head for, for different genres of movies that I would like to do, um, this was something I had just as like a seed and she gravitated toward it. And so we just kind of went off to the races together.

I always imagine, uh, co-writers back to back in an office, you know, furiously typing away. But that's obviously not usually how it goes down. So what was your, how did you write together? We started off like in this building at NYU in the basement, writing on a giant whiteboard, like all our crazy ideas for this movie um and you know it's quite absurd and a lot of stupid stuff in the movie happens so it was it really just started off in the most fun way possible like literally just writing like and then there's punching and then and then a bomb goes off but we don't know why yet. And just collaborating in that fun, free space. And then it was always one of us typing. We never went home with homework. We always were together.

And one of us was doing the typing and the other one, usually Rachel, was joke pitching. And I was trying to catch up because she's so fast and is just a machine, and I would try my best to sort of like, uh, you know, uh, type, type as we went. Um, so it was kind of like that us in different coffee shops, it was, there was like three coffee shops and then that basement and then the Tisch lounge, which we weren't allowed into at a certain point, but we kept on trying to sneak into for the free space. My producer here is an NYU grad as well. So he, he, he knows those. I see him smiling to my right right now. I'm curious when you're writing and you're coming up with those kinds of outsized creative ideas. Is there a pragmatic director part of your brain saying like, God, I don't know if

I'm ever gonna have the budget to make a movie where I can do a set piece like this? Or are you just freewheeling? I think for this one, we were freewheeling because Shiva was so the opposite of this. And because I was writing it at the same time, I was thinking with two completely separate parts of my brain where Shiva was so pragmatic and thinking about location and thinking about extras and just what was achievable. And I think for this, we just wanted to have fun. And I guess maybe in the back of my mind, I wondered if we would have to sort of scale it down at a certain point. But I think the goal of this movie genre-wise was like, yes, a high school teen comedy,

but also like a group adventure story. I was about to say like boys adventure story, but it's obviously not a bunch of boys, but like taking inspiration from movies like Attack the Block and Super 8 and even, I don't know, even old stuff like The Goonies and whatnot. So I think that the scale was always really important and feeling free enough to write these big set pieces

was like important to the creative process. It did feel like the tone is a pretty big pivot too away from Shiva Baby, which felt like more grounded and like you said, like less absurd than this. So what was it like kind of writing in that mode? It was fun because Shiva Baby was so personal and like kind of traumatic and a little at a certain point in the making of Shiva, I was like ready to sort of leave this part of my life behind, but kept having to sort of go back to these dark memories. And with this, it was like the opposite and totally freeing, especially working with Rachel. You know, I think that there is a pragmatic part of my brain that's always like,

well, how does this make sense within the structure of the plot? And like, why would this character do this? And it's so much fun, at least, you know, especially at the beginning, writing with Rachel or working with a comedian, because they just want to have fun and create something, you know, particularly Rachel, that's nonsensical and create something, you know, particularly Rachel, that's nonsensical and absurd and, you know, allows the female characters and the queer characters to, you know, be as silly as we've seen in so many comedies, you know, driven by men. So I think that just from the get-go, I was, you know, purposefully doing something completely different tonally and and trying to

let myself have fun with it here at the ringer we always talk about performers um as like uh you know something we would invest in it's like i buy stock in this actor or actress which is an absurd way to talk about things but it is something that we do i love that and with rachel like after shiva baby i was like i'm buying all the stock. And it's doing really well. Like she really is growing in, you know, in fame and in success. And what has it been like to watch such a close collaborator and friend

get increasingly famous in real time? It's so amazing. And I'm so proud of her. And it's been so wonderful as we've been trying to get bottoms off the ground and, and, and, you know, get Shiva off the ground, you know, with each other. She was so involved with, with, with that movie from start to finish. It's we're, we're,

we're best friends and we're kind of like sisters at this, at this point. So it's one of those things where even when you see someone every day, you're not actively like, oh my God, your life's so different than it used to be because it's changing so incrementally, especially during COVID when we were both like at our parents' house and then, you know, separated and in lockdown, like, you know, her life was changing slowly, but it wasn't really tangible. So it's been, it's been wonderful to watch her grow. And it's also been lovely to have a partner that can sort of ride the wave of this industry with me and see, you know, what, what the good and the bad and the ugly and everything in between and having someone who also doesn't

come from an industry family, like just sort of coming in as outsiders together and being like this is awesome like this sucks like wait what does this person mean what's going on here and oh award shows are actually kind of like this and you know what i mean like oh i met my dream person they were amazing oh i met my dream person and it was never meet your heroes like it's just like fun to to have a partner like that so it's been wonderful to watch her rise. And, and it's been like lovely to sort of, as I've been deep in the process of making our second baby,

you know what I mean? To see her continue to, to do stuff. Yeah. And good for the film too, that she's right in the middle of the poster that, you know, for the film that you're selling coming out in August,

it's like, yeah, she's a star. Yes. Yeah, definitely. What are, what are your favorite high school comedies? What are the movies that you're selling coming out in August. It's like, yeah, she's a star. Yes. Yeah, definitely. What are your favorite high school comedies? What are the movies that you, I'm sure you're getting this question every day, but I do want to know.

No, this actually, I'm at the beginning of sort of talking about this. And I was thinking about this last night because a lot of our references for the movie, like visual references and stuff were just sort of general comedies. And, you know, I don't know, more specific kind of, yeah, like those adventure movie references, but I was thinking about how much I loved teen comedies growing up. And I, I really, I loved really the campy 90s, early 2000s ones like Strike and Sugar and Spice and Drop Dead Gorgeous and jawbreakers um but i've seen bring it on so many times i've seen american pie so many times um super bad i i just i think in general like i always respond to movies where the losers seem really cool and typically obviously that's that obviously, boys have been in the leads for that.

And maybe it feels like obvious as to what the gender swap thing we're doing here with Bottoms. But I just love those movies. I could rewatch them forever. They made me feel like excited to be a teenager. And then I became a teenager and was like, this is not what I thought it was gonna be.

But I cherish those movies. 10 Things I Hate About You. I've seen that movie so many times. You See the Last Dance. Yeah, it was just a good era, not another teen movie. I'm just rattling off such a long list. You're doing one of my favorite things,

which is just saying the title. Jawbreaker is a funny one because it does something i was going to ask you about heathers but heathers generationally might not even be a movie that is as big for you as it might be for somebody like me but jawbreaker is kind of in a similar lineage where it's like pretty dark and a little cynical and a little violent um yeah and your film i don't know if it's cynical necessarily but it is a little violent and i think it's unusual to see the high school comedy with that kind of energy too, which I thought was cool. I wanted to hear you talk about that a

little bit. Yeah. I don't think we ever thought like, oh no, is this going to be too violent? And I think that we, I feel so lucky that we worked with a wonderful, wonderful producers and a wonderful studio that was like, yeah, we got the movie, go do it. But then it was interesting in terms of developing the stunts and the look of the blood with our makeup artists where people were like oh so there's actually going to be fighting there's actually going to be violence and blood with these girls and we were like yeah what like that's been in the script since since day one but it it is sort of hard in this day and age, not just with female characters, but in general to imagine like a bloody high school movie, which is where this sort of like action adventure part came in and,

and, and movie like kick-ass, you know, was, was a huge reference, even though that's not like a high school comedy, it is very much steeped in a high school story and, and about this loser and it's very,

very bloody. Yeah. But going back to job works and stuff they just don't make movies like that anymore or heather's um which is which was a big reference in terms of its absurdity um so you know i just wanted to call back to those a little bit and mostly the absurdity the violence just feels like sort of an extension of the absurdity to me within within the tone of our movie so one thing that a lot of the best high school comedies do and some of those adventure movies you talked about do as well is they basically like forecast great careers for young actors you know like some so much of the fun of watching those movies is like oh my god this is this person at 19 years old yeah how did you think about like building out your cast?

Because some people I was really familiar with and some people I'd never really seen before hadn't realized who they were. So how did you think about casting? I think that we just wanted a mix of people from different backgrounds. And we wanted no matter what the actors to play the characters really straight

and to believe their characters intentions and to really root for them. Because we always think Rachel and I that that creates the funniest comedy when the actors really like play it like they're not playing the jokes they're not like doing like a routine they're they're grounded and the that makes the stuff that they're saying so much more ridiculous um so we worked with incredible casting directors Laura Rosenthal and and Beth Fox. And it was the first time I really understood what an art casting is, especially an ensemble, because she kept on saying, like, everyone needs to be singular. Like each person we bring to the puzzle needs to have their own thing going on.

And I'd never we didn't know who Havana Rose Lou was. And she just sort of sent an amazing tape and was like the character immediately and just felt so, it was one of those like, you know, cheesy moments where you're like, that's her. And the same thing for Ruby Cruz and for Miles Fowler, they all came in like just fully believing their characters miles um like was crying his tape and he did the scene where he's like rescuing jeff um and it's like it's gonna be okay and he it felt like it was in like a cop drama situation where he's like rescuing his partner um so i you know i i feel really excited that we're working with all these like young up-and-coming actors i mean obviously now io is also having her rise with the bear. It's crazy. Mostly from the bear,

but also now it's going to be in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles this summer and theater camp and, you know, a bunch of other stuff. So I feel like excited. Like, I feel like I'm so ready to watch all these careers soar and see all these actors pop off. And I feel like I can take it, hopefully not with Ayo,

but with it because she's already on her way and with rachel but a tiny bit of credit yeah ruby cruz like jumped off the screen to me i was like who the hell is that you know like that's an exciting thing when you find people like that definitely um so as far as uh the rest of the cast marshall lynch is in this movie? He is, yeah. How did that happen? Such a good question. I think for that role in particular, we wanted someone surprising and unexpected. And, you know, originally we were thinking

maybe a dramatic actor who's never done comedy before or some sort of personality. And he was in an episode of Murderville where he played himself and he improvised the whole episode because I'm pretty sure that show is completely improvised. And the head of our studio, Alana Mayo, saw an article about it and watched the episode and was like, what about Marishon? And I have to admit, I didn't know who he was because I'm not, even though I wrote this football movie-ish, I'm not really a sports person. So I just thought he was so funny and such a good improviser.

And so we offered it to him. And then he was like, why do you want me to be in your movie? Like, he thought I was kind of crazy. He was like, are you sure you're talking to the right guy? And I was like, yeah, you're just so funny. And he was like, do you know who I am? And I was like, no, not really. But I know, but now I know you're like, you're a really big deal. And, you know, I watched all his interviews where he's like, so like ridiculous. Um, and so we had a few conversations about it. Um, and he ended up connecting to the story personally,

um, uh, you know, uh, cause his sister is queer and it meant a lot to him. And he just he was just so fun to work with. Like it was like he brought a totally different energy. He's such a personality. And it was like fun to have just like someone different who's not an actor. You know what I mean? Like on set to keep it light. Yeah, he's really great.

I mean, for a sports fan like me me he is he is a legendary character um yeah but also casting athletes in movies can be disastrous i mean that's like a pretty big risk that you took it could really go the other way if he's not good and he's great totally yeah no he he really pulled it off i mean honestly like he was so concerned with getting the lines right. And we were like, Sean, like we cast you kind of to be you and to like go off. And he was like, you guys are artists. Like, I want to honor your craft. Like, I want to get the words right. And then when he would improvise, we were like, this is better than anything we could have ever written.

Like, just keep doing this. And he was like, this stuff is easy. Like, I want to, I want to, he was like trying to do Shakespeare. We were like, be like like do a skit um but uh he not that we did shakespeare but he was like caring so much about the way we wanted to say the lines um and he's also just an incredibly kind person which is always nice to be on set because i feel like when you have someone from a different industry you're like how are they going to be like in this environment and he was so considerate and got to know the crew so well

um yeah that's great all around yeah did you make everybody watch fight club i didn't um i even didn't want to re-watch it because i was like nervous i was just going to completely copy it and the last thing i wanted was like someone to be like oh like i'm just doing a mock of fight club i'm just doing girls fight club um but my dp brought it back into the picture when we i mean it's one of my favorite movies but i hadn't seen it in a while um uh my dp was like starting to reference it a little bit and show me or send me clips i obviously had seen before but so we worked it in a little bit but i wanted the girls to kind of like the the actors to feel like empowered to

kind of just want to fight on their own and and sort of embrace their characters like hungriness and sort of like you know uh horniness for fighting in their own right you know um and not copy something so i did it i didn't make anyone watch it no it felt like the fight choreography in your movie is a little bit more grounded and awkward which i appreciated too like how did what was it like to kind of work on that like on that kind of grounded level it was so much fun and so specific and just a really good learning experience my dp maria rushi and i did the fight choreography. And then we worked with an incredible stunt coordinator,

Devin McNair, and she wanted it. Not, not that she wanted it, but she, she was suggesting like really cool moves. And we were like, no, we, we want money. We want it to look kind of real. Like these girls don't know what they're doing and maybe they get better, which I think that they do. But we wanted it to look real, like they as scrappy as possible. And it was fun because, you know, we got to like, you know, tailor it to the cinematography that we wanted. And we watched a lot of like Edgar Wright references because we wanted the fighting to also be humorous and to flow with like fun camera movement. And most importantly, we wanted it to, to be coming from the girls. We didn't have stunt doubles.

I think we had one double for the day that Ruby without spoiling anything has quite a big set piece where there's like a couple, a couple of risky scunts in there. But other than that, it was all the girls. So it was fun fun it was really fun to develop and now i feel like a little more trained no pun intended to like you know do do more fight stuff maybe or action you know oriented things going forward do you think you'll do that like level up on the next project in that way i don't know if it'll be on the next one but i do want to make like just a true action movie with maybe like a little comedy in it. But I had, it was really fun and freeing, you know, to not be like,

where's your character at emotionally walking into the scene, you know, like, what is she trying to get out of this other character? Like, sometimes you're just like, run. It's fun. So I certainly hope to, you know, eventually. Was there anything surprising or frustrating about working with a bigger budget, a bigger cast, bigger set that you didn't see coming? Yeah, like so much. But in a way where I knew that was going to happen, I knew I tried to get advice from as many of my mentors as I could beforehand and like take notes, but nothing. I knew that there was just going to be so much that I didn't know that was going to sort of inundate me. And that's just sort of what happened because Shiva was, not only was it an independent movie, but it was like the most independent. It was like one location, like everything was in one house. There was no company moves um i think like you know certain like boring things like how long it takes to get extras like 200 extras like seated and in their spots like you know i

was like oh this takes a while i'll think about this when i'm writing you know big set pieces um and then like base camp i was just like why why can't the actors like be beside me like i don't understand where are they and like why can't I be working with them on the scenes? That's a big difference that I think most people don't understand about. I was kind of excited about it. I was like, Oh, they all got their own trailers and whatever.

And I was like, wait, but they need to take a car 10 minutes to get here just for me to like, you know, pitch some jokes and like, you know, hear what they think about the scene. And it makes you feel a little more disconnected,

especially like with Rachel and I being my close friends and Rachel being, you know, the co-writer of this movie, I feel like she would, she was so far away and I was like, what's going on in your world? And she was like, this is what's going on in my world. What's going on on the freaking movie. And, you know, I think like you're not as in it as a team, like how you are when you're making something so small. So, yeah, there was a there was a handful of things that were frustrating.

But it but but it all came with just like reminding myself that there was more money and more opportunity and more more belief and trust being put in me as a director, which is so cool. And I'm so grateful for Orion for letting me do that. So yeah, there were like a gajillion frustrations that just sort of come with scaling up. And that's just kind of part of the process. You know, a couple of weeks ago, Amanda and I on the show talked about No Hard Feelings and the complications of the studio comedy in the modern era. I'm sure you've given that some thought, like, where do you stand on it? This is a studio comedy that you've made and it's a high school comedy, which we also don't see very much of these days. Like, what are your thoughts on what the American movie going audience's

interest is in these kinds of movies these days? You know, I think it's so hard to predict. Like, I feel like, you know, when people ask me about like theatrical versus streaming and what do I think people want? It's like like I feel like it's so made not made up but like I just like have I just want to make what I want to see and and I think I would I I'm so excited to see movies like No Hard Feelings, Joyride you know coming out in theaters because I think more than anything I just miss comedies in theaters and I think audiences enjoy that so much more um but I do think now teen comedies comedies in general but especially teen comedies are associated with streaming um so I don't know

I'm just hopeful but I think that I think that I just think it's a better viewing experience when you're like laughing in a theater with with all these people how was South by Southwest you guys have fun oh my god it was so much fun it was so nice because we didn't get to go for Shiva Baby that's where that was supposed to premiere and then it was one of the first you know world events to be canceled in 2020 it was the first indicator that like things were not okay not the first but one of the first indicators that like it was going down we were gonna do a show there and everything and then we had to pull out yeah i remember that yeah and everyone was like should we shouldn't we whatever i was babysitting and i was in a coffee shop being like waiting for the like public health official from like austin to like speak and i was like literally

like on the edge of my seat like waiting for my kid in trapeze my kid the kid i was babysitting and i was like is the future of my career gonna be like just tell me sir and meanwhile like they don't know they're like on speaker and they're talking about their kids and stuff anyway whatever vivid memory for a second yeah so South by was really fun because we hadn't been and I love the programmers there Claudette and Janet and um I was a little overwhelmed and sort of like out of body but uh what a way to celebrate the movie and have the whole cast there was really fun so since you already had this in the hopper before Shiva Baby even premiered do you have the third one like ready to go is it done

have I not can I see it soon like what's the story no um I mean, I'm working on the next thing, but I definitely need a little bit of a break because I made these back to back. I think I'm excited to take a little bit more time to sort of flesh out the next one. And so part of the plan of making Bottoms right after Shiva was to sort of cement myself and get my career started and feel like, okay, I've earned a place here in this industry. I can be here now. People can trust me. They can trust me with a bigger budget, etc. So now I feel like I have the space to let my imagination run a little bit more wild.

Have you talked to other filmmakers about the kind of critical moment after your big, you know, first feature debuts and you get critical acclaim and then it's like the world is your oyster. But a lot of that for you is happening in the midst of COVID, you know, so the like sitting and taking 20 consecutive generals at every studio with every producer and, you know, doing the bottle water tour, like you, you probably didn't do that, right? You probably did a bunch of zooms, but like, do you want to do that? Do you probably didn't do that, right? You probably did a bunch of Zooms. But do you want to do that? Do you think you will do that?

I did my virtual water bottle tour. Yeah, it was great. That's how we met the folks that we made this with. So I do think it's worth it. But yeah, I haven't talked to other filmmakers about that. It's funny. I feel like I always look to people a little bit or a lot older than me and be like, how do you handle a set?

And, you know, like, how do you like to start your day and stuff like that? But I, I feel like I now want to ask more like emotional questions of like, how did it feel when you were first starting out and did people trust you? And, you know, I think that certain things, what I'm learning sort of just stay the same, unfortunately, fortunately, and unfortunately. So I think, I don't know, I'd be curious to talk to more filmmakers about that, but I did do the water bottle tour. I did, I did, you know, it was, it was weird. I was doing it all from my parents' house and I was doing all the virtual film festivals. And,

um, it felt sort of like a blur of an experience. But when I look back at it, I do think I did the thing. It was just in a very weird zone. Um, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that they've seen? What's the last great thing you've seen?

Oh God, I should have come prepared for this. It's the last movie. I can't remember what you said last time. Probably something interesting. I was, um, I was fortunate enough to, um, be on one of the juries at Tribeca this year. Um, and I got to see, um, this incredible movie called smoking tigers, which was a, I believe it was a directorial debut. Um, and it was like a wonderful coming of age story, um, that really stuck with me and felt

really like simple, but like very lived in and universal and grounded. I wish I could be more specific about it, but it was, um, it was, it was really cool. And I really look forward to like seeing more of that filmmaker's work. So that's the last thing sort of sticking in my mind right now. Emma, it was great to see you. Congrats on Bottoms, which I thought was so much fun. Thanks for doing this. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. Thanks to Emma Seligman. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Later this week on The Big Picture, CR will be back and we'll be drafting again this time from the year 2006. We'll see you then.