The Big Picture - ‘Dune: Part Two’ and ‘Oppenheimer’ Hype, How the Writers Strike Affects Movies, Too-Early Oscar Predictions, and a ‘Guardians Vol. 3’ Hangover

Episode Date: May 9, 2023

Sean and Amanda dig into the mailbag to answer your questions about upcoming movies, the impact of the writers strike, and more. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back with 30 more songs and 120 songs total. I'm your host Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more trued musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests. All with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws That Explain the 90s, starting Wednesday, May 17th on Spotify. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express.

Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about so many things. A programming announcement on this podcast. For the first time ever, we are doing a live Big Picture event.

Me, you, Chrisyan will be in jolly old london town on may 20th and we are screening a film at the prince charles cinema what's the film we're screening phantom thread phantom thread one of our favorite movies especially among the three of us so we're going to introduce the movie we'll have a q a afterwards we'll hang out well what else will we do will we eat british I hope so. I hadn't even thought about that. What is your favorite British candy? I don't even, I don't know. Should we do a taste test? Wow. That sounds like maybe live event material. Just buy a whole bunch. So the tickets are on sale for that event right now. I think we're moving theaters. We're moving into a bigger theater than we had

originally intended. So if you want to buy tickets, check out the Prince Charles Cinema website. Check out their social handles. Check out the Big Picture social handles. Bob, we'll miss you. Where will you be at this time? I'll be sitting right where I am right now. New York City. Very sad.

Unfortunately, I'm not making the trip across the pond. Although I do love London. And I do love the film Phantom Threat. About as much as any film in the world. So I'm bummed out, but there'll be other times. There's no intention of recording this moment in time in London. So if you want to hear us

talk about Phantom Thread, at least on this day. And you can get to London with reasonable expenditures. Well, I assume most, this is largely oriented towards Europeans. If you fly to London from America to come to this event, you are a real one. You do understand that the people in London are no longer Europeans. I was sort of like, yeah, it's tough.

That's right. But Europeans, welcome, if you want to deal with the immigration issues. Right, but if you're in France, you might want to hop a train to come to the event. Right, but if you're in France, then you're probably going to Cannes to the Killers of the Flower Moon screening premiere, which is, I think, literally at the same time. The same time. It's literally at the same time.

Yeah, so maybe forget about your... That being said, if you fly from Los Angeles to London to come to one screening of Phantom Thread, you are in platinum status of big picture fandom. Diamond status. Diamond status? Yeah, you're vaulting straight to diamond.

We're not going to make you do the drudgery just for platinum. Okay, okay. All right. We're nicer than Delta. I'm not recommending anyone do that. But if you want to make Amanda tremendously uncomfortable and me tremendously proud, please feel free. I support anyone who wants to go to London going to London.

That's in fact what we're doing. That's this just, we were all going to be in London before a work thing, which maybe we'll talk about more at a later date. I still got to, you know, learn about Sweden. Yeah. Anyone have any books about Sweden to recommend in English? Please send it my way. I would consider maybe The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I have read that. Unlike you, I've read all of those books and saw both movies. Open-faced sandwiches. That's what we're looking for. Pickled herring.

You know, fika. There's so many things. Anyway, we're... Lucas Mattson. Listen, that is a different podcast. Yeah. I'm making it every week. No, but then I have a different one that is not for public consumption.

You're horned out for Alexander Skarsgård? It's wild. It's out of control. Very tall. Very tall. Very charming. And the thing is, his charm has sort of overpowered the shitbag writing. It's like, I don't care.

He's so handsome. I just want him to win, even though he's a bad person. Hot is hot. Yeah. Anyway, good for him. I did wonder last. He's so handsome. I just want him to win, even though he's a bad person. Hot is hot. Yeah. Anyway, good for him. I did wonder last night while watching the episode. I was like, will we see him on the street in Stockholm? He lives there, right?

I don't want to spoil anything, but let's just say one of our colleagues spoke with him recently and asked for some tips. Shut up. As a little bit of a preview for a future podcast. Anyhow, we'll miss you in London, Bobby. Hopefully we can do more of these. Yeah, this is our only planned event at the moment,

but The Ringer in general is thinking more about live events and hopefully we'll do a few stateside at some point in the near future and WAGS can join us.

Shall we talk about movies? I'd love to. I love film. I love cinema. Do we have to call it cinema and film when we're in the UK? I think if we were

attending Cannes, that's something we would have to do. But alas, we are not. You guys are both wearing tuxedos right now. Every day of my life. Little known fact. On Friday, we released an episode about Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3. Joanna Robinson was our guest on that episode. You hadn't seen the film at that point. You attended the film with the people on Friday.

I did. In fact, you went on a date with your husband. did to see this film high noon on friday my husband and i went on a rare date i think like the first movie that we have seen together in the theaters since creed 3 which and that was the first one since like max was born honestly okay so that those are the two movies we've seen together. You're all about trilogies. You're all about number threes on your dates, which is nice. I had a strong feeling that you would not enjoy this film. Was I right?

I'd like to start with the positives. Okay. I noted the production design. You and Joanna talked a bit about it on your podcast, like the weird uh intestine planet and even the kind of the suburbia was obviously filmed on at least partially real sets and there was like a tactile vibrant uh quality to them that counter earth the high evolutionaries planet yes but um especially given given all of the VFX, CGI,

muddledness of the last Marvel films, and also specifically Guardians of the Galaxy, which since it is set in space, has been relying on that stuff. I was like, oh, these sets look good. This world is visually interesting. I thought the endangered children had very stylish pajamas okay um really

scraping the bottom of the barrel on positives here what do you want me to say i hated it i absolutely hated it i texted you throughout angrily like i just i loathe this movie so my husband who went like willingly because he likes rocky the Raccoon, walked out and said, is that among the 10 worst movies I've ever seen in my entire life? We did not enjoy our date. I want to dig into this a little bit. So I saw your husband over the weekend, of course, one of my dearest friends, and he was very firm with me about how much he didn't like it. And I think that you guys are actually,

at least from the folks that I've spoken to who've seen it, like kind of on the outside looking in on this one, there seems to be a lot of affection for this movie. I think some of it is Marvel fans who feel like this is kind of the last gasp of old school Marvel, right? This is Gunn's farewell. People have a lot of love for the Guardians films. I liked it for reasons that I talked about last week, which is like it feels like a little bit of a throwback to a kind of cheapo 70s sci-fi movie that I dig. But there's a big, there's a lot of emotionality in these movies. Like, they ask you to care about these very silly characters.

And I feel like Gunn is really effective at that. But I feel like you just have never bought into the premise in general. Like, you've never really gotten interested in this collection of characters. Yes. And I think my reaction, there are two parts. One is personal taste. And I understand that people get frustrated when I just try it out. It's not for me. But the James Gunn Guardians of the Galaxy universe is just not for me. I have never liked the characters. I don't find them charming. You know, I know they're supposed to be like uncool, but like they find each other and it's a winning thing and I just like I don't know whether it's the performances or the characters themselves but like the jokes don't land it's not like a group that I want to hang out with I have never met a man with a mixtape and wanted to continue that conversation

I you know like I just I don't know what to say um and and I do think they've always looked uniquely garbagey to me because they have always been more effects and CGI forward by the nature of being in space so I actually did think that you know I noticed when they did something different and I and I thought it was cool right um and it even changed the color palette of the film, which is another thing I just, I don't know. I mean, I guess space is that color, but as far as we know, but I just, it's, I don't like the colors.

So part of that is just, it's like really not for me. And then I do also think that Marvel has reached a place, and listening to you and Joanna talk about this, it's also sort of solidified this for me. It's just, they're not inviting new people in anymore. You know, this is now, we are making movies for the people, for the fans, for the people who have always loved this

and who have read comic books and dreamed about seeing these characters on screen and or have grown up with them and have a relationship. But it's a closed system. It's no longer Infinity Wars and Endgames on screen and or have grown up with them and have a relationship but it's a closed system it's it's no longer infinity wars and end games and let's just get the casual moviegoer in or let's let's invite let's invite people and it's not an open come on in the water's great and you're and you're gonna have a good time you have to know too much and it's playing too much to an established film language um and

like film references you know there was a very charming moment in your podcast with joanna who i love and who's very smart she was like there's not that much homework and then named like eight things that you had to have seen in order to watch this and you know when i'm glad that you guys did a recap because i had no idea who Will Poulter was playing. What was the character's name? Adam Warlock. Yeah. I obviously did not watch whatever.

I think his name was uttered maybe once. Whatever special I was supposed to have watched. Well, I mean, that's actually something that didn't come up in our conversation. You're making a very good point. I think you're 100% right. There was a Guardians of the Galaxy holiday special last fall or Christmas that Kevin Bacon was featured prominently in. I love Kevin Bacon. That may be interesting to you.

There was a Kevin Bacon joke at the end of this film as well that was a riff on that. There was also some revelations about Star-Lord and Mantis, the Pom Clemente character, like their relationship throughout time that is like kind of interesting

if you care about these movies, but is kind of vaguely noted in this movie that if you hadn't seen the holiday special would be utterly confusing. And of course, with the Guardians movie and frankly with any movie that is a number three, there's a lot of homework. I think what Joanna and I were

reflecting on was the fact that relative to the last few Marvel movies, this was easier to follow. And there was less like, here's a new character that you have to care about for the next 10 years. Well, yes.

I mean, yes and no. Because since I didn't know who, like Axelrod, what is this person's name? Adam Warlock. I don't know. David Axelrod. Yeah. Campaign strategist.

I didn't know who that person was. So that was a new person who I had to be like, okay, is he from Eternals? Like, what is he from? Where is he? You know, what's happening? He did look a little bit like the way that Harry Styles was styled in Eternals. Yes.

And so there's some confusion there. Right. Handsome British men with big sweeps of hair. That's obviously what I remember. And then, well, one of like the eight centerpieces of the movie is Rocky Raccoon's... Rocket Raccoon? Rocky Raccoon is the star of a Beatles song. Rocket Raccoon is Bradley Cooper's character.

Maybe if we played that, I would like his fucking mixtape. Anyway, we're going to come back to the mixtape also. That was my lowest moment. But this movie is like an origin story of a fictional raccoon and his trauma. So that by the end, we can understand why he needs to be the person to lead the next however many Guardians movies. So there is character, you know, what have you. Yeah, Yeah. And, and, and as my husband pointed out, the fact that it's an origin story and they're trying to save him sidelines,

the best part of the movie for large parts of the movie. And I found all of the, which is just rocket being funny. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I found the animal cruelty backstory to be incredibly upsetting. It's effective. Well,

it, it works in the sense that I was mad and upset. Yeah, that's what he's trying to get you to feel. I was also reflecting on the fact that I'm a grown woman with a family, with a job. Okay. And you're just asking me to care about a fictional raccoon's, like, you know, origin story. That is insulting to me and to raccoons this is a question that you should ask at the first biden to santa's debate dear sirs i am a woman with a family and a job why have i been asked as a consumer of modern entertainment

i literally i'm sitting there during my work day on a fr Friday just being like what has life come to that this is what is happening but don't shrug your shoulders at me sometimes I get upset but like this is always this has always been true for mainstream movies that are that are in genre like all genre movies have this stuff so we got there early enough for the previews Zach was hype on Oppenheimer I was like yeah no I know yeah we're gonna talk about that I know I mean I was hyped previews Zach was hype on Oppenheimer I was like yeah no I know yeah we're gonna talk about that I know I mean I was hyped too but Zach was like did you know and I was like yeah like I'm aware that they're releasing Oppenheimer like by the way does he know you host the movie podcast our entire summer schedule is planned around this release date just so you know

like you're babysitting for a week while I work um but then, you know, we sat through the Flash trailer and I thought Ben Affleck looked great and I was so thrilled to see Michael Keaton. And then I was just like, we're doing another dumb like origin story. I was like traumatized. Like enough, enough. I know, but enough.

No, but this is relevant to what I wanted to talk about with this, which is that, you know, Guardians 3 made $114 million over the weekend, which is a vast sum of money and the second highest opening of the year behind Super Mario Brothers. Quick note, Super Mario Brothers movie is now the fourth highest grossing original film in the history of the United States box office. Okay. Yeah. Fourth highest grossing non-sequel ever. It's been out for a month i don't think also we did an entire episode about it nobody cared that's like not even a good episode the episode

we did was good but it looks like i i listened to it but no yeah no one listened i mean all of this that's amazing that's fascinating yeah because it's a lot of children went to see it and adults went with their children you know but ruthie my sister-in-law took a three-year-old, like her friend Vince, and he just yelled about Bowser the whole time, you know, and they had a great time. We got to get these five-year-old listeners going. That's what we got to start. Bobby, how can we get these five-year-olds involved in podcasts? I just wanted, well, first of all, I have no idea. My five-year-old demographic is smaller and smaller ever since I was not a camp, ever since I stopped being a camp counselor like six

years ago. But I was going to say- Do you want to be a camp ever since I stopped being a camp counselor like six years yeah um but I was gonna say counselor for our children sure I think I could have a fun camp for your children specifically yeah yeah some movies some baseball you know some basketball little sports action they really like some outdoors they're very bad at it that's great I love that um calling the Super Mario Brothers movie not a sequel is like borderline it's borderline technically not a sequel but it's like really just a sequel

the stat where it's like original it's not original that's the thing sure listen I know I know what you're saying

I mean they had 40 years of prep time to make us aware of the Super Mario Brothers extended universe I think I'm just pointing out that I don't know

what you're concerned about which is that things are things that are being made now for mainstream audiences are either have to be interconnected and part of this long lineage or they're in this kind of closed system and it feels like it's only speaking to kids young men what have you uh i don't think that's going to change anytime soon but the 114 million dollars and i don't wish any ill on anybody who worked on Guardians 3, because as you know, I liked it a lot. But it's like,

it's officially, it's over. Like, it's on the downturn. This is a franchise that people love and has really, like, the audience scores for this movie

were very, very good. And it still was a disappointment relative to the tracking. It made $75 million less in its opening weekend than the Doctor Strange 2. Like, that's no less in its opening weekend than the Doctor Strange 2. Like, that's no,

that was one year ago when Doctor Strange 2 came out. That's a huge dip for, frankly, Guardians is more beloved and a bigger deal than Doctor Strange. So- But it doesn't have Rachel McAdams. Did Doctor Strange 2 even, I guess she was in it briefly.

She did because she was in the trailer and I was like, oh, Rachel McAdams. Rachel McAdams is wonderful. I wish more people would go see Are You There, God Is Me, Margaret. What a fucking nightmare that is that like only $10 million worth of humans are going to go see that movie. All of the reports I read about it, those people are nightmares too because they're like, wow, the 12-year-olds didn't show up.

Like, no shit. A 12-year-old didn't drive themselves to the theater to buy a movie ticket. I know. Parents got to take your kids to these movies. What are we doing also? As soon as this movie is on streaming or available in homes, everybody from my side of the world who does not go

to the theater to see Guardians. My side of the world? Yeah. You have an entire side of the world? I don't know. It's just like

we are out here. The people who don't care about Guardians of the Galaxy and... You're getting smaller and smaller. Your people are diminishing. No, that's good. the Galaxy. You're getting smaller and smaller. Your people are diminishing. No, that's good. The people who care are getting smaller and smaller. As you

just said, we have numerical evidence. It's just that when it's available at home, people will watch it. And people will watch Ari there. And that's just the way the world is. And I know it's bad for the industry and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And movie theaters and whatever.

You just blah, blah, blah the last three years of the pod you're just like movie theaters industry blah blah whatever we're gonna talk more about that as well but you know it's just the audience is there it's just not at a movie theater bobby do you think that uh guardians volume three quote unquote underperforming is good bad nothing meaningless I just I've stopped trying to call any performance of a Marvel movie good or bad or just the existence of them good or bad because I'm just so tired of that dichotomy and I think that we're in just a weird place with entertainment where it's like there's a bunch of different stuff for a bunch of different people who want a bunch of different things. And I don't personally want more Marvel movies in front of my face.

And that's okay. But I don't really fault anyone who does want that or who finds this entertaining or like an easy reason to go to the movies and buy some popcorn. Like whatever, that's totally fine. I just don't,

like I have no idea what is going on with Marvel at all. I've never been less connected to it. I know when the movies come out because we talk about them on the pod, but I have not seen a Marvel movie in the theater since Avengers Endgame. Right on, Bobby. I think that, but that, see, that's the thing is that's

not like a call to arms. He's just like I cycled out, which I think is actually more what's happening. It's not the dichotomy. It's not the me versus you, me being like a nerd stuff. And that's how I started my analysis, you know, and then you made me talk about the movie. But also, you guys know that I do cycle in on other stuff, though.

Like, I do cycle in on more, like, independent non-IP movies and I go see movies in the theater still. Can I talk about Beastie Boys for a second? I didn't make it

to the part in your podcast where you had a meltdown, so I just wanted... I didn't have a meltdown. I had a simple plea to my heroes, which is, please stop licensing

your songs to movies that aren't good. I think that was... Not even movies that aren't good. I think that was not even movies that aren't good. Just like don't overexpose the same five songs. That's disrespectful to Minions 2, The Rise of Gru. I mean, is that like good relative to what we're talking about here? I think it's way better than Guardians of the Galaxy 3, personally. That's wrong, but okay.

That's like objectively wrong. And I kind of had fun at Minions, but no. All right. Well, Bobby, so you haven't seen this movie so i we're about two hours and 20 minutes in and it's time for the gratuitous third act bad cgi marvel fight and then and and I've already sent Sean several text messages of despair and frustration and vague threats. And then the cue for No Sleep Till Brooklyn hits. And I literally just went like, oh no, aloud in the theater. But they got to stop doing this.

Who's they? Our heroes. Okay, yeah. Dear Ad-Rock and Mike D, thank you for all you have given us. I want Ad-Rock and Mike D to have a great life. Yeah, this is what I did. I already did this. I was like, I don't want to take any money out of your pocket.

I want everybody to respect and understand what you've given us creatively. And like, in some ways, it makes me feel a little better, right? You know know because they have always been like our heroes and like marvel and super mario brothers came for them and now it's come for me too you know so like no one is immune but no you know just be a shining beacon and i was i was already down you know and when And when Super Mario Brothers hit in Super Mario Brothers like three weeks ago, this is the same needle drop in two movies. That to me was just like a confirmation that I'm like as old as the sun, you know? And that it was there for all the parents who are bringing their children.

And I was like, well, I'm a parent and like here I am and you know I Mike D and Adarok probably also played Super Mario Brothers even though I don't like to think that about them I want them to be cooler than that but whatever you know it was the 80s so that was okay but this just felt like kicking me when I was down I think um my problem with it is that that that's a song that I've never really liked by the Beastie Boys and I'm not like a licensed

ill guy necessarily and so when I hear Beastie Boys needle drops and they're just it's just sabotage you know

fight for your right to party no sleep till Brooklyn I'm just like could we just get like 5% more creative you know they've got like

8 albums the second third and fourth albums are like some of the greatest works of modern american pop music ever made they changed music forever we just can we just stop anyway this is these are these are petty concerns but i'm with you i mean we're old what do you want man like we we did it i want a better world for me and for the films i want a better world and and for cinema back to the biden for my son debate i would say you've chosen the wrong profession if you want a better world that's just a take that i have uh you want to do a mailbag yeah okay some good questions in this mailbag i like these questions bobby do you want to start yeah the first question

comes from your former co-worker I guess, current coworker, David Jacoby. How much does Sean love me? Would you like to address these rumors? I saw this question on Twitter. Jacoby is one of my favorite people in the universe. I love him infinity. I've had some extraordinary times with him, both professionally and personally.

One of my all-time favorite golf partners. I've, I, he's just a tremendous, tremendous human on a golf course. I would say roughly four to seven beers on every round, which is at our age is remarkable. Uh, and is like one of the funniest, smartest, savviest dudes. I know. So I love me. I feel slightly left out of this from the Jacoby side of things. David Jacoby, I love you too. Where, you know, like I love me. I feel slightly left out of this from the Jacoby side of things.

David Jacoby, I love you too. Where, you know, like I was also on the tweet. You want a direct question tweeted at you? How much do you love me? Yeah, I listened to Food News. You know, I wanted to go to Spain. Yeah. Wasn't invited. Nor was I.

By the way, Jacoby, the sweatshirt, the sweatshirt suit you were wearing in Spain was wonderful. I asked Juliet to tell you that, but I'm, you know, doing it now on a podcast. We don't really get that kind of spawn. No. Where like airlines come and say, we want to send you to, you know, the Maldives. I think that's the real mistake

I've made with my life. They didn't go to the Maldives. They went to... Maybe I'm just trying to secret that into the world. But I just want to go to a really nice hotel. Okay. Who will be the airline bold enough to fly me to London toon to watch phantom thread that is the question i want to know

okay the first real question jacoby is the greatest he's that it's simple as that the first real question comes from georgia um an item in the news recently which i know you guys wanted to talk about a little bit can you talk a little bit about the writer's strike and how that might impact the movie slate yeah so we haven't talked about this yet um i think it's not it's obviously not as mission critical specifically to the movie side of the business as it is to television uh i thought chris and andy had a really interesting conversation about this on the watch last week if you haven't been listening to matt bellany's show the town i think he's done a number of episodes now that have been very thoughtful that have kind of i think tried to understand the perspectives of both mega rich billionaires and their streaming services and also obviously the writers and what

they're striking over. From the movie perspective, I think there's a couple of very obvious ways that it impacts the work. There are a lot of movies that are in production that were in production when the strike began. There's a lot of writing that takes place on movie sets while movies are in production. That is not happening or allowed to happen right now. So when there was a strike in 2007 or 2008, I always forget what year. 2007. There were a number of films, particularly big franchise films, that were in production when the strike started.

The two biggest, the two most cited examples of this are Quantum of Solace, the James Bond film, and Transformers 2. In my opinion, those are two very poor films, largely because of massive script and story problems, because there were no writers on set during the makings of those films. I have particular insight into this because I reported a feature about Michael Bay in 2009 and 2010, and he was making Dark of the Moon, the third Transformers film, around the release, around the time of that 2010. And he was making Dark of the Moon, the third Transformers film, around the release,

around the time of that piece. And so I talked to all the screenwriters from the second Transformers films, all the screenwriters on the third one, and the process of writing that they did all the way up until the writer's strike, and then why the second film didn't work. Now, your mileage, of course, is going to vary on Michael Bay movies.

I tend to think that the third Transformers movie is genuinely awesome. And not because of the story necessarily, but it's a movie that doesn't have the same kind of script problems that the second one did. So from a very material perspective, the movies are going to be worse. Like especially the big franchise movies

that are in production now are going to be hugely problematic. And now we're even at a place where 15, 16 years later, since that happened, so many more films are reliant on pre-visualization. And also things have to change from a day-to-day basis in terms of making those things fit the story structure that has been predestined for them. I'm reluctant to call out any films that are in production because I don't really know what the ramifications are going to be. In all likelihood, when those movies come out next year or in 2025, you'll be able to pick out which movies really needed a writer on set.

This also is impacting, like, it's interesting to watch what shows are in production right now and which shows decided not to go into production on the TV side. And there's a lot of question of whether or not a show that goes into production is not showing solidarity with the strike. I'll be candid like i don't i probably don't know enough about the conversations happening within it within the guild but like and or is in production right now which was shocking to me because and or is written and created and run by tony gilroy who is one of a long-standing member of the wga and you know like widely hailed as one of the great living writers. Whereas Stranger Things opted to halt production on their show right now,

and the Duffer Brothers are standing in solidarity with the writers. So I think that there are a lot of arcane issues in the negotiation here. I'm curious to hear what your perspective is on what this means for movies. But I think it's interesting to kind of talk through a couple of the issues that I feel like are meaningful

for movies in particular that the writers are raising in this negotiation. One other thing to note is that the DGA will be starting negotiations soon and its contract is up on, I believe, June 30th.

And there are, you were just talking a lot about the writer-specific issues, which are, you know, both very practical and how do you define where the writing ends and the quote-unquote show running begins. And I think most people would say the writing doesn't end. It's an essential, you know. Yeah, my belief is they're intrinsically related. As is mine.

And so there is like there is a nitty-gritty like how are various shows handling this aspect to it and there is also the existential um what role does writing play in a creative endeavor um so those are writer specific but there there is also a money aspect of it and my personal position on that is like pay people who do work money um the dga uh negotiations will overlap with the wga the' negotiations, in terms of money and residuals and streaming. And a lot of the questions of the business, as we talk about all the time, has changed so much. And the way that people are paid has not changed. So how the dga negotiations go um and so far i'm relying mostly on matt bellamy's reporting it seems like they are um not going doesn't sound like it's going well so so you know there is the

belief or there's the possibility of a director strike as well which then definitely affects you know movie production and you know, it's early days, kind of, is what it seems like. In 07, the writers brokered a deal that allowed for a lot of things to stay in production. It's unclear whether, like, where they will net out there. I think the thing, a kind of critical issue that affects both television and movies, and I'm curious to see where the negotiations that out on this issue is the idea of transparency, because of course, like,

you know, minimum pay increases or the idea of mini rooms versus, you know, proper writers rooms or what it means to be a showrunner and producer and a writer on a show. There are a lot of various things to, to, to work through and,

you know, your mileage may vary on how much it interests you or how much it matters to you personally. But transparency in the streaming era is fascinating to me because we just had this, you know, long, somewhat silly, but somewhat serious conversation about the box office

of Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3. That is a publicly available metric that we use to judge the success or failure of something. And that has been how, and Nielsen ratings are the same, publicly available metric that we use to judge the success or failure of something. And that has been how, and Nielsen ratings are the same, and that is how pay has been negotiated throughout the industry over the years. There have these, you know, there's certainly critical acclaim and awards and, you know, notoriety, all these things factor into negotiations, but performance is usually the most important thing. How much does this show or this film's

success mean to the studio? And relative to that, what leverage can the creators of those things make to make more money? Netflix essentially blew up this entire structure and redefined the structure. And everyone has been playing catch up for 10 years since Netflix did so when they launched as a streaming service. And we just don't know. We just don't know how many people watch shows. We don't know how long they stay or stick around to watch those shows. We don't know financially what the impact is on those services that each show provides. There may not even be necessarily perfect metrics to measure those things. I think is a huge issue, certainly for the writers, but also for us in the sort of punditry, in the media space, in better understanding what is working and why and why not. Why are some shows only eight to 10 episodes now? Why are some shows canceled after two seasons?

There's no residuals anymore. So what does that mean for the writer's working life long-term? All of this stuff is all kind of intertwined in the idea that at some point in the middle of creation in the modern entertainment economy, somebody in the middle of creation in the modern entertainment economy, somebody just pulled a curtain in front of everything. So that was such a radical change from the way that the industry operated that I'm so curious to see if that is revealed at all. And if it is, I think you'll see a very, very different world of entertainment.

And if it isn't, then it will be what a lot of negotiations boil down to, which is more money, which is if you won't give us this, we will broker instead for this. Now, I have no idea what's going to happen in this particular negotiation. But if you look at the long history of negotiations across all of the unions, you have to trade things for one thing for another thing. And so this one is really, really critical. I have no idea how long it will last. I will say just

a lot of conversations I've had in the industry over the last couple weeks, people seem to think August, September, October, like it's going to be a while. And that also, per the question

about the movie industry, that is when it will really start to affect films. When films are starting to go into production with a quote-unquote finished script, but they have to figure out how to navigate the lack of writers on set or writers participating in the process in real time.

And then you're going to have half a year's worth of films that are real janky. I mean, it's another long-term thing of, you know, and I feel like we just lived through this in a different way from the pandemic of we went through a lot of movies not being released. And then there were production limitations in different ways on the movies. And the movies were not that good. And then as a result, the fewer people got excited about seeing the movies, which is a vicious cycle. And I think that when you don't have writers involved, the movies will not be as good. And then the same thing, which doesn't bode well for a future box office, which then brings you back to the, you know, it's a mess. I noted with some interest that the Blade, the new Blade film starring Mahershala Ali, was just halted on Friday. And that's also an example of the kind of domino

effect that something like this has too, where, you know, you may be exasperated with the Marvel films, but a lot of people are not. And if a Marvel movie isn't going forward, they already dealt exactly with what you just described, the COVID-19 delays. And that clearly had a meaningful impact on the kind of coherence of their storytelling. So now it's going to affect a lot of these, all these dominoes that have been lined up over the next five years. So it's a really, it's just a critical moment

in the history of popular entertainment. Bob, you want to weigh in? Where do you stand? Well, you know, full transparency, I am a member of the Writers Guild. The Ringer Union is part of the Writers Guild. So I feel like before weighing in, people should know that,

that I am not currently on strike, obviously, because it is just the TV and film writers. I think to go back to the original question, how is it going to affect movies? Making a good movie is a moving target. And if you don't have everyone

on your team shooting at that moving target, the writers being a really central part of that, they are actually putting the ideas onto screen by writing them. You know, and like what you mentioned about writers being on set,

changing things to fit the story, fit the arc. it's not just like what characters are saying in movies you have to write everything that happens on the screen has to be written down on a page first and so anything that you want to change that's writing so if you don't have those people on set like the movies are gonna be worse like demonstrably or they're just they're not they're just gonna get pushed back and never finished because you're not actually going to hit that goal if you can't make those changes within a certain amount of the budget. Like, it's just going to, the budgets are going to go through the roof without the people actually there to be able to make the changes. And I think that that is going to be, you know, tangible for viewers. No, you're right.

Many of our favorite movies are legendary for just writing on set every day. Here's a new page. Here's a new page. Of course. I had an interesting conversation with my wife about this last night because we were talking about how Bill Hader asked to not continue

the Barry pot that I've been doing with him because he's standing in solidarity. And we were talking about the editing process and how even in post-production, editing is in a way, especially if the creators are in the room during the edit as Bill is on his show, that is a form of writing, determining what to cut. And then more specifically in the case of Bill, I mean, he's talked a lot on that show that we've

been doing about reshoots and how you film something and you get in the edit and you realize that you don't have what you need. And then they go out and the studio pays for the crew to go reshoot the series or reshoot the film or what have you. That's another thing that you won't be able to get. You won't be able to get reshoots on films that are not working. You'd be shocked to learn how many films need reshoots that are, some are reported, some are not. And it's fairly common. It's part of the creative process. That part of the creative process is gone, is now out of the picture, at least until this is resolved. So it has huge ramifications. Yeah, I'm sure we'll talk about

it again at some point, though. It does feel like things are at a standstill. What's the next question? The next question is kind of a follow up to this in a way. It comes from Sam. In honor of writers everywhere, what's the most well-written movie of the decade so far? Sean and I made our list independently, and they're pretty much identical. So the inarguable answers, according to me and Sean, Bobby, you can tell us whether you endorse this or not. Tar, obviously. The worst person in the world. Palm Springs.

I threw Never Rarely Sometimes Always on there. The Eliza Hittman movie from 2020, which, you know, speaking of COVID-19, kind of fell to the wayside slightly, but just incredibly paced and new and extremely upsetting way of looking at a familiar and upsetting topic. Good reminder that not all great screenplays are necessarily about the dialogue. Yes. Because that's a very, that's a spare film, but really brilliantly structured. I also had to drive my car at the Rice Kahamaguchi movie,

which was nominated for Best Picture two years ago. And, you know, I think you could make the case for all of Small Axe, but I thought Small Axe, Mangrove in particular,

which is the Letitia Wright kind of courtroom setting, is a really, really good script. Actually, that whole series was just released on the Criterion Collection. Wonderful set.

Five great films. What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of Junior Chicken, McDouble, or Chicken Snack Wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink. So pick up a McValue Meal today

at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. Okay, what's next? Next comes from Murphy. I need both Sean and Amanda's reactions, thoughts, and feelings about the Dune Part 2 trailer. Specifically for Amanda, as a proud and welcomed member of the Austin Butler Hive, how are we feeling about bald and eyebrow-less Austin Butler? Happy to report that my personal chapter of the

Austin Butler Hive has been having some conversations about this off mic. It's not just me, other friends. Here's the thing. It's not exactly what you want, you know? On the other hand, my guy going to be back on the press trail for six months solid because this movie comes out in November. You have to assume that there is going to be an Oscar push. And you have to assume that they want this very charming, handsome guy front and center in the Oscar push. So six more months of Austin Butler out in the world. Thumbs up for me. I heard recently that much like after he performed as Elvis

and adopted the Elvis voice, that now that he has portrayed Fade Ralph, that that will be his look going forward too. That he will be alabaster white with no eyebrows and no hair at all times. So I look forward to you spending six months with that guy. Okay.

His head is very, very circular. Like got a real bulbous look to it. I don't know how much of that is prosthetic. Yeah, I was going to say there must be some prosthetics to even it out. Yeah. He looks... Hair is powerful. He looks...

Hair is very powerful. What does Fade Rautha do? Do I want to know? Should it just be a spoiler? He's a... Is he, like, the big bad? He sort of is. He's sort of, like, the kind of warrior attache of the Harkonnens, you know, like the evil clan.

Okay. He's portrayed by Sting in the David Lynch version of the film, wearing quite a special codpiece. I would encourage you to check out that film. I'd love to know what you think of David Lynch's Dune. He's bad. He's a bad guy. He's going to have a showdown of some kind

with Timmy, with Timmy Chalamet. Dune Part 2 looks fucking phenomenal. I mean... I'm psyched. I liked the first one. It looks like

grand stage filmmaking from a visionary director. I can't wait. Like, I'm fired up. So you've turned around now that you were... Well, I was always frustrated by my own personal confusion director uh i i can't wait like i i'm fired up you've turned around now that you well i i was always frustrated by my um my own personal confusion about the arc of this storytelling

but uh do you feel like you have clarity what what if they pull the rug out from under you at the end of june 2 and it's like part three when the trailer dropped many people tweeted at me that this film should be titled dune part two colon part one that would be the first chapter of the second installment of the dune story only to be concluded in a third film um i i feel fine about it i think that this is we talk a lot on the show about kind of like what we want from hollywood and from movies and if we are going to do IP, we want it entrusted in his hands, in the hands of young movie stars, Zendaya, Timothee Chalamet, Florence Pugh, Austin Butler. I mean, they've really culled together this incredible group of people. Hans Zimmer, Greg Frazier, the cinematographer.

This is best-in-class material. This is not, oh my God, we're putting pressure on the VFX house because we got to get Quantumania out in a week and a half. Like, that's not what this is going to be. This is going to be something that has a tremendous amount of care put into it.

And it looks thrilling. The first film was thrilling and I would be shocked if this one was not either. So I'm very excited about that. You know, since we got this question, we did also,

as you hinted at earlier, got the Oppenheimer full trailer, the three-minute Oppenheimer trailer this is Christopher Nolan's new film coming out let's go top hat shopping boys uh are you excited about Oppenheimer as much as you can be excited for like a movie about nuclear you know destruction and our and morality yeah it looks sick. Here is Zach's response to it after we saw the trailer.

We got to see that in IMAX. I was like, what the fuck happened? Nolan pilled. When did I become married to a Reddit poster? Jesus Christ. At the end of the trailer, it is very aggressively noted that this was shot on IMAX cameras. That's a note that you can see at the end of the trailer. I really liked this about the trailer. There was a note that you can see at the end of the trailer. I really liked this

about the trailer. There was a lot of attention paid to sound design. Like the crackling sounds that you hear. Don't laugh at me. This is real. This is like...

No, I just... It's like you are so mixed up in the head about Christopher Nolan at this point. You just like don't know which way is up and you're trying so hard

to be constructive but you're scared but you don't want to let your light shine i'm not sure this is a good idea for a movie that's i'll just say that like i'm not sure but like you can you can hear everyone already yelling at you because you're being a killjoy of course of course i look listen i've taken a lot of bullets on my nolan takes over the years so i'll i'm happy to take some more if i don't like the film i don't know if i won't like the film i will say sound design really stood out to me you can fuck off it's just ridiculous it looks sick just like does it it's a july 21st let's go it's a docudrama about a bunch of old people in a room that's what we want them to make every week on this podcast. We're like, yo, they don't make it like they used to anymore.

Chris Nolan, your guy, coming through on the IMAX with some dad fiction. Just say yes. Were you at all concerned, though, that the big, you know, hanging point of the film is Robert Downey Jr. saying like, and what do we do next? What does the president do? It's like, we know what the fuck he does. Like, why did they make Oppenheimer? It's because they dropped the bomb. Like, there's no tension in the story is the thing I'm concerned

about. Like, we know what happens. We know what happens. Like, it's a real, like, you can read the Wikipedia page and know what happens. Obviously Wait, what? They dropped the bomb? Nolan is an incredible visual artist. The movie's going gonna look and sound amazing to get you in the right headspace for this like what what are you because this is bad john this

is like what i have to be true to myself two and a half months left and this is where you are i have to be true to myself i haven't seen the film so i don't know but as i watched the trailer i was like is this a movie this is the same thing you said about Titanic, which is up there among your worst takes. Hey, that's a great point. That's a phenomenal comparison. If it does what Titanic does, which is that it absolutely wows you with its technical majesty,

of course I will bow down. Nolan is obviously tremendously gifted as a filmmaker, but watching the sort of like tension of the story, there's no fucking tension in this story. It's literally the most significant event of the 20th century. And you're like, there's no tension. Oh my God, Sean. I don't know.

Like, do you care about J. Robert Oppenheimer? Like as a, as a character, is that a, is that a person who interests you? Have you read any books about him? What do you know about him? No, I'm not a dad. What is, that's such bullshit. What does that mean?

I'm so mad. You're so mad and defensive. John, it's okay. I want to work with you. I do think that there is like an element of mystery around the Manhattan Project itself. Yeah, of course. Even if it's not centered around Oppenheimer singularly,

I do think that there is like a, who was involved? What were the motives? What were we willing to compromise? Like there are some interesting themes there, but I understand what you're saying. But there is also a who was involved what were the motives what were we willing to compromise like there are some interesting themes there but i understand what you're saying but there is also to bobby's point the themes there's like a moral quag you know not even a quagmire but um there is there are stakes in terms of ability versus like what your you know knowledge creates i mean what's funny is that like this then animates like every shitty ass future like sci-fi movie that you make me watch and take seriously you know like they

created a something that's so powerful that now i regret creating it you know what it is yeah but that's a fair point but i think one thing that i like about movies is that when i'm put into a world of creation i am confronted with questions I hadn't previously been asking myself. But the questions that you're talking about. You feel good, like you know the answer. No, that's not what I was going to say. I feel like society has been pondering those questions publicly for the 80 years since the events transpired.

Like this is not raising a new issue of whether or not the creation of an atomic bomb is just or moral or the dropping of it on an entire country, like a country in that power that we hold is something that no one has ever considered before. It's one of the primary tracts of 20th and 21st century philosophy of the way that like nation states build up and acquire power and then threaten other countries. Like it is really well trod ground. So I think I'm kind of like, I'm trying to figure out if a person

who has this incredible technical prowess, is it like well-used on a story that everyone knows with a massive philosophical series of questions that most serious thinkers have considered. Like this isn't new. This isn't even like, I fucking hate inception. But in inception, at least it's like,

what does the dream state even mean? Which there's like a different kind of depth and unknowability about that. This is like a docudrama. It kind of reminds me of like the Theory of Everything or something where I'm like, oh yeah, Stephen Hawking, he like fell in love with somebody, but then he went on and did other things. There's something kind of flat about docudramas that are so, so well known. That's all I'm saying. So art should not take on the great questions of our time. When it does so with real-life events, it's often less interesting to me, is what I'll say. Now, The Social Network is a really interesting example of this. We proclaim that movie as our favorite movie all the time on the pod. That movie is like

wildly unfaithful to the story of Mark Zuckerberg and how he created Facebook. But in doing so, it kind of challenges some conventions and ideas by shifting things around.

Maybe Oppenheimer will do the same. You know, maybe it will kind of play fast and loose with the facts of the case or redefine Oppenheimer. But that's what

I was going to say. If he does that, I think people will take offense to that because of the magnitude of the story. So, I don't know. Am I splashing cold water on a movie that everybody's excited for? I can't believe that you're ending the big picture

because of Oppenheimer. Like, you're just going to, like, completely combust yourself. I've just got a very chaotic relationship with Christopher Nolan. Okay. Was it a good trailer? Yes! Bobby, help me out here. Yeah, it's a good trailer like what are we all right it's just building excitement over like the literal craft of what they're gonna do which is well i was making

an effort in everybody's eyes like it's not identify that craft and then you just started mocking me so i you know that is true i don't really know what to say you did start uncomfortable and i you know there's just some fraud did start mocking him. You're so uncomfortable. There's just some fraudulent things about him as our great artist of the century. There just is. I don't think he's our great artist of the century. There are a lot of people who are like, for me, for films, it is Christopher Nolan or I die. This is how I feel all of the time.

How does it feel? I mean, I feel fine. I feel resolute in my beliefs. I don't feel encroached upon. I'm just like, some of his movies are okay. Cut to Sean crying. You put the Little Mermaid clip. Did you watch the Little Mermaid clip? No, of course not.

I was going to say, actually. That's the thing is, after all the concern trolling about Oppenheimer, I watched the Little Mermaid clip and I was like, oh, this is where society dies. This is actually the worst thing. So, funny peek into our schedules. I don't know, we're this far in a mailbag episode, why not? So, I believe that the Little Mermaid screening

here in Los Angeles that you and I were invited to is time zone wise at the exact same time as the Phantom Thread screening and also the premiere of Killers of the Flower Moon at Cannes which is a huge cinematic

one of the great days in movie history global event so we won't be seeing a screening of it do you think it's going to be playing in Sweden

and can we go in Sweden oh my gosh that's pretty funny I'm sure we can find out when the release date is I don't know if it's a worldwide release date do you think it would be

like dubbed in Swedish or do you think that it would just be in English I would imagine it would be in dubbed in Swedish or do you think that it would just be in English? I would imagine it would be in English. Oh, you know what?

You might be right. Yeah, it might be dubbed. I bet we could understand it anyway. Disney? Yeah, they probably have like 18 different versions of this in different languages.

You want to go see a dubbed Swedish version of The Little Mermaid for two of the like hundred hours we're in Stockholm. Okay, that's a good point. That doesn't seem like a good use of our time.

When you put it that way, I was thinking about it in terms of like that versus PowerPoints, but you know. Whole other podcast. Okay. I think, let's just say maybe. We'll put a pin in it. Okay. We will do an episode on The Little Mermaid. I was borderline traumatized by this clip that I watched.

It looks very bad. I was very outraged by the lack of ad disclosure at the Oscars, but I was also outraged by the clip itself. We just talked about this with Peter Pan and Wendy,

but this trend has to stop. I don't know what we're doing. It has to stop. Okay, let's go to the next question. That was a lot of angst about Oppenheimer. Next question comes from Scott. If you could be or had to be tasked

with making one single massive upcoming casting decision for one specific role in an upcoming film, either rumored or hypothetical, what would it be? What do you think about this? Well, Scott gave some examples, including Superman, I have no thoughts. Next Creed opponent, I have no thoughts.

Tarantino's next lead. And then it popped into my head. Tarantino's next rumored project, which I know you, you know, are not commenting on. But what I've read is that it's the movie critic. It's about a film critic. And I just the first person who popped in my head was Emily Blunt because I really like Emily Blunt

and I don't think that she gets enough good roles and I think she and Tarantino could actually be an interesting match so there we go I think Quentin has talked

about it a little bit when he was on tour in Europe but I mean the movie is not about Pauline Kael so well I wasn't saying that she would play

Pauline Kael I'm if this turns out to be his 10th film I do think that that character is a man. It's not a woman.

I thought it was. Okay, whatever. I don't think so. I think that there was speculation in the original reporting that it could be about Pauline Kael, and people ran away with that information. I don't have a ton of information about this, so I don't want to go too far in speculating. But I think it's probably more likely that, you know. Emily Blunt is a good

action star. A middle-aged man is more reasonable. And I felt that she would be good in the Tarantino, like, Uma Thurman, Kill Bill,

mold, you know? I think Emily Blunt would be great at playing you as you in the movie about you. That's nice. Do you understand?

I heard the movie, it was, I heard it was going to be you playing Chris in Tarantino's new movie. Me playing CR? Or the other way around. Chris plays you. The TV podcaster? I think that should be more interesting. The 10th and final film from Quentin Tarantino's new movie. Me playing CR? Or the other way around. Chris plays you.

The TV podcaster? The 10th and final film from Quentin Tarantino? I just like Emily Blunt. We're not using her enough. She's in Oppenheimer playing the fucking wife. I know.

That's kind of a bummer. I mean, this is what I'm saying, man. This guy's got wife problems. This guy has wife problems in all of his movies. Yeah, that is true. I don't really know what to say about that.

Not in Tenet. At least Tenet is more respectful to Elizabeth Debicki than Guardians of the Galaxy is. How dare they? She's an abused mother whose child is kidnapped and used as leverage. It's the same fucking thing in every movie. Yeah, okay, but at least she... Write one good female character. She gets to dive off a boat.

All right. You like Christopher Nolan's female characters? Honestly? I don't really think about them. Okay, well, there you least she... Write one good female character. She gets to dive off a boat. All right. You like Christopher Nolan's female characters? Honestly? I don't really think about them. Okay, well, there you go. That's the problem. That's true for all of his male fans as well. Okay.

You know what? I can't be on watch all the time for this shit. You know, sometimes I just gotta... Only when it's convenient to you. Well, sometimes I just gotta take a day off. You know? I got the girl dad over here to catch my back. That's a good point.

I'm looking out for the sanctity of the female character in cinema these days. Okay. I don't really have an answer for this question. The Tarantino one's an interesting one because there's no world in which we would ever have the job of casting the lead in Tarantino's next movie. That's what he does. He's like one of the masters of that. He's very specific about that. Superman's interesting.

Actually, Joanne and I did talk a little bit about the fact that James Gunn's next movie is going to be a Superman movie, Superman Legacy. Don't care. I know you don't care.

I know you don't care. What is your deal? We know you don't care. Who would be a good Superman right now? Why are you starting to question me? Who is your Superman? Austin Butler? I'd be mad.

That's not how I want him to be using his time. Superman is so boring. It's like good. I mean, I understand he's an alien, but like whatever. If Gunn is doing it, he's going to do a different version. He's going to redefine it somehow. He's not going to do the traditional Henry Cavill, you know, rock solid jaw. He's going to do an origin story and Superman's going to have

some childhood trauma. Superman is a raccoon. Okay. Let's go to the next question. Next question comes from Hannah. What are two movies that came out in the last decade that got ruined by marketing campaigns? How much does marketing still matter? This one's a little longer than a little older than 10 years old, but Jennifer's body jumped to mind because there's been a big reclamation of jennifer's body in the last five to ten years uh karen kusama's kind of pop horror starring amanda cypher and megan fox and the movie was kind of sold as like a horror sex comedy with megan fox kind of in her post transformers moment and that's not what the movie is it's like a much more kind of angsty analysis of female rivalry of like you know what happens in like the bullying that happens in high school of like the awkwardness of relationships at that time in your life like a more serious and

more fun movie at the same time so that one like if you look at the posters they look like the posters for like a Cameron Diaz comedy from that time. That's not really accurate to what it actually represents. That one leap to mind. And then the most like famous example I think of the last 10 years is Edge of Tomorrow, which the title is tremendously confusing. And I don't think that the advertisements really sold the audience very well on the absolute like madness of that movie, the kind of like gleeful groundhog day in mech suits that that movie is and and then it got even more confusing when they started rebranding the movie on home video as live die repeat and it's also based on a graphic novel

called all you need is kill so there were like three floating titles around this movie and no one could really like you couldn't have a common conversation about it because one person would call it Live, Die, Repeat and another person would call it Edge of Tomorrow. So that's an unusual case of just like

they had a Tom Cruise Emily Blunt movie. Right. It's like science fiction well-made science fiction from the guy who made The Bourne Supremacy and they fucked it.

Yeah. That was weird. Justice for Emily Blunt once again. I love that movie. Yeah. I put Longshot on here. Great one.

Which is a movie that you, Chris, and I all love. Bobby, have you seen Longshot? I have, yeah. I've laughed very hard many times. Yeah, it's great. It's a romantic comedy with Seth... It's a docudrama about Hillary Clinton. So that's the problem, right?

It's a romantic comedy starring Seth Rogen and Charlize Theron. And Charlize Theron plays the Secretary of State. It was released in 2019. They played into the political elements of it. Because by 2019, we were living in the current entertainment political hellscape that, I mean, in some ways we always have been, but it's gotten really bad. And so they played into that element of it and guess what they blew wave that movie they fucked it they just absolutely ruined it now you know on the flip side i don't know how you successfully romantic market a romantic comedy in theaters

at this point you know for the same reasons the audience is there it just watches at home now but um all right this the the political aspect of it it just misunderstood what was gonna grab people's attention i think when no hard feelings comes out in june we're gonna have this conversation all over again we'd had a little bit with bros but that was kind of at the end of the studio comedy era too and so it was clearly a victim of that. Let's do a few more. All right, next question comes from Chris. There is now bad AI generated video from text prompts, but assuming it gets good enough to generate whole films,

what happens to the landscape of cinema? Will streamers use AI to create films? Will there still be jobs in the movie industry? Will IP remain valuable? Have you thought about this? Because this is also an issue during the writer's strike strike i've thought about it a little bit in the sense that but but like in a very um useless way which is just i'm like well i'll always be able to tell the difference so people you know it it's not that it won't be a problem but this belief that other people

will be able to tell the difference. And so there will always be a market for things made by humans. Do you do feel that way? I do feel that way, but I also know that that is how we got to every single other problem we have in the entertainment industry right now,

because so many people can't or don't care about the difference between something made with quality and something mass produced. And even, and I don't mean to sound, you know, on my high horse there, because there are certain instances where I also don't care. I'm just like, well, I just want to watch like a, you know, shitty TV show produced by Reese Witherspoon based on a, you know, novel about a middle-aged woman. Right. And so if it hits the marks this way, I don't care that it's actually bad.

And so I guess that means at some point that people won't care if it's a certain amount of... Even if they can tell that it is not... It doesn't have an original touch, that they don't care. Do you have any pangs of moral doubt about watching the Reese Witherspoon produced version of a novel about a middle-aged woman that is written entirely by artificial intelligence? Yes. You seem a little unsure.

Well, do I have moral pangs of doubt? Yes. Probably I would just not watch it. I mean, that's the other thing. That's effectively the question. Yeah, but it's like very... The product itself is so replaceable to me that I'd be like,

oh, I don't need to watch the robot version and I can like turn it off as easily as not. I think this is really, really interesting because my mind vacillates wildly on this. From one point of view, it seems eminently clear to me that entrusting robotics and robot, you know,

machine-learned technology with creativity is dangerous, unethical, and weird. And I've been watching science fiction movies my whole career that have been telling me, do not let this happen. Do not let robots take over. From Terminator 2 to iRobot, everything is just like,

do not let artificial intelligence step in place of anything really, but especially creativity. On the other hand, I think about how I consume entertainment now and my incredible reliance on the suggestive modes of entertainment. So I open Apple TV Plus and I literally will just scroll through the Apple TV Plus homepage that kind of collates every streaming service and says like, here's what's new. And I just cruise around and I'm like, what shows do I want to check out? Or what movies hit the streaming service today? Or I think about Spotify where we work. And frankly, I think one of the amazing achievements of Spotify is the way that they've used technology to introduce people, myself included, to new music. I spent the first 30 or so years of my life pre-Spotify on a quest

to find things in record stores, on the internet, on message boards. I had a personal goal to acquire every single major label released rap record ever. That was something that I cared about in my 20s. And you would have to hunt. You'd have to find things in that way. And Spotify kind of solved a lot of those weird fake interests by just being like, never heard of this song. To this day, I get served songs and playlists and I'm just like, what? How do I not know about this? This is so good and so crazy and so perfect for my taste. And so I don't think about that with any discomfort.

I accept it. And in fact, I like it. And so that is something that technology created that is a convenience for entertainment and enjoyment. Now, obviously, they didn't write the songs there is a differentiation there and even there i i have that experience too but i also have the experience of uh being served the same thing that i've listened to 45 different times which is not just specific to spotify but also to you know ad technology of you know how many times have you bought something and then been like given three ads for it

so it's not that smart yet and maybe it'll get smarter but again I think it's hubris on my part but I'm just always like

okay it has its uses but like they still can't figure this out they haven't figured it out yet yeah I think will it ever get smart enough

is the interesting question because history has shown us that it probably will. You know, that essentially over time, it's going to get more and more sophisticated. That's the very nature of artificial intelligence. I actually just saw, you know, speaking of movies, a very interesting movie on Friday called The Artifice Girl, which is available on VOD. It is a kind of small, soft science fiction movie. Chris Ryan and I were talking about it this weekend.

We were together, Amanda. That kind of explores this concept. It explores it in a very different setting, but it's about, the premise of the movie is a young man creates artificial intelligence to essentially like track and entrap sexual predators.

And then this artificial intelligence over time becomes more and more sophisticated and more and more animated and more and more and more you know people should watch the movie it's a very very good film especially under its circumstances but that is like a utility that presents a lot of good for the world but also there's a lot of danger inherent in that idea whether or not chat gpt can write a marvel movie is like a much lower stakes concern but it would scoop out this entire not just this industry but this realm of creativity in the human spirit you know like writing quantum mania may not be the most creative venture in the world

but writing celine song's past lives which is coming out in june is that's a meaningful important thing in our culture and in our art so i don't know i i think that there's an inevitability to a lot of this stuff that makes it hard to be like no under no circumstances it's like trying to fight the ocean you know like it is going to happen whether or not there are going to be guardrails around it is clearly something that the wga is negotiating for i just find it completely uninteresting to watch something made entirely by ai because like what i relate to in art and movies is what the person was going through when they made it and so if there was no if there's no person on the other end of that i don't really know what the point is like i'm trying

to imagine myself watching arrival thinking this was written by a robot that it would be completely pointless because the feeling that you have at the end of that is relating to the artisans behind that movie relaying the human condition to you and so i don't i don't think that i would ever i'm not saying that i would never watch a video made by ai because it could be informative or it could be content it could be educational but like for the purposes of art and movies i don't i don't totally understand the appeal no i i agree with you bobby but then you know we say that about every great movie that no one goes to watch and like we're out here where the the the great quality things still matter i do think they still matter and and we all agree on that and we fight for them but it's um the marketplace doesn't usually

seem to care you know what i mean it's just like you and me on an island being like arrivals amazing i'm really thrilled by the way to hear uh you join team arrival which has been taking some real shots on certain other podcasts on this network i know and you are not standing up to defend arrival it's such like do i want to get into an argument with Bill about something that's good or not on every podcast? And I don't have time for that. All-timer. Talk about a movie

that washes over you. Just unbelievable. I prefer the film Enemy from Denis Villeneuve. Okay. Next question comes from Sam. Everything Everywhere had already been out

for a month plus by this time last year. What already released 2023 movie seems most likely to win an Oscar in any category? Can you think of anything that isn't the movie air?

I scrolled through it and not really. Like I was even trying to think through technical categories and like, well, John wick get something for cinematography or some of the, you know, but no, because they don't respect any of those things. So it is very worthy. I think of a cinematography nomination, but you're right.

It'll never happen. Yeah. You know, showing up, we both loved. No one cares. I feel like no one has seen that. It's kind of heartbreaking. People who see it care, but I mean, Kelly Reichardt, like, does... She doesn't do things for Oscars, so...

I had this weird feeling, like, First Cow was going to lift her a little bit in the consciousness, but alas. And there was one other movie that we, you know, How to Blow Up a Pipeline, you and I really enjoyed. Hasn't quite caught the wave. Exactly. That's available on VOD now, though, if people want to see it. So, yeah, Air is really all that I've seen. What would Air win? Screenplay? Yeah, i don't see that

happening but you know what i don't know if it would win anything but it'll at least be in the conversation you can see damon's performance being in the conversation possibly people like him it would have to be kind of a weak year yeah um i made i just mentioned past lives which i which comes out in less than a month and i do think will be the first movie that everyone's gonna say is this the best picture nominee it actually comes out on the same day as the new spider verse film which i think has a chance actually at being the first animated movie in a long time because there's a lot of anticipation for that film um just like a snapshot of everything that is like on my radar for the oscars and inevitably there will be five to ten that we're not thinking about but we talked about killers of the flower moon premiering at

can probably after can we'll talk about like what hit and what didn't um book of clarence which is the new james samuel film produced by will smith the color purple a new musical adaptation of the novel that steven spielberg directed 35 years ago. Somewhat uninterestingly. Freud's Last Session is a movie I just became aware of starring Anthony Hopkins as Sigmund Freud. Yeah. Could see that. Sure.

The Holdovers, which is the new Alexander Payne movie. Dune Part 2, we mentioned. Ridley Scott's Napoleon. Bradley Cooper's Maestro. Oppenheimer. You can't even say it without making a distressed face now. I've got you in an amazing head state. I love it. Todd Haynes' May December. Yeah. Which is also premiering the same day as Killers of the Flower Moon at Cannes. Very much anticipating that movie.

Stephen Queen's Blitz. Emerald Fennell's Salt Burn. Dumb Money, which is starring Seth Rogen based on the GameStop story directed by Craig Gillespie. Sofia Coppola's Priscilla. Yes. Our friend Sam Esmail's Leave the World Behind. Can't wait. David Fincher's The Killer,

which I read is two hours and 45 minutes. Okay. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? In and out. In and out. It's short relative to

Killers of the Flower Moon, right? Elemental, the new Pixar film. Also out in June. Asteroid City new Pixar film. Also out in June. Asteroid City, Wes Anderson. Also out in June. Yes. Ferrari.

I can't wait. From Michael, Michael, Michael Mann. Yeah. And Yorgos Lanthimos' Poor Things. Is there anything else that I didn't hit there that you feel like is on the radar that we should be anticipating for the awards season? What did I draft?

You didn't say Barbie. And that hurts me. You think Barbie's going to be up for the awards season. What did I draft? You didn't say Barbie and that hurts me. You know what? You think Barbie's going to be up for Best Picture? It's Greta Gerwig and Noah Baumbach.

Imagine if Barbie and Oppenheimer just suck shit. Like, what happens? Actually, we might have to cancel the pod.

I might consider just straight up canceling the big picture if they suck. I mean, that's fine if they actually suck, but like, if big picture if they suck. I mean, that's fine if they actually suck. But like, if only you think they suck, then you need to double the tone.

It's such a burden to be so omniscient. You know, like it pains me to just have the right opinion about everything. Like, I feel like no one can truly understand me. I'm alone in brilliance. It's painful. I'd like to say for the sake of my livelihood that you don't hang the future of the big picture on two films that are coming out

on the same day. Just saying. They're both going to be good. They're both going to be good. It's fine. I'm really excited about both of them. They're both going to be good.

Doesn't Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part 1 got the whole title? First of all, also two hours and 45 minutes. You know what? At this point,

under three hours, I don't care. I've given up. Both of those films together, which were originally conceived as one film, are going to be six hours long. That comes out the week before?

Yes, the 21st. It's okay. It's okay. My honest prediction, sincere honest prediction, Mission Impossible, Dead Reckoning Part 1 will be good.

Barbie will be good. And Oppenheimer will be good. Barbie will be good. And Oppenheimer will be good. That's my prediction. The next question we have here comes from Lily. Interesting question. Lily says, I mean this genuinely because I've been thinking a lot about it. Why do you guys feel conflicted about enjoying air and advertisement for shoes, but haven't said this about Top Gun Maverick, an advertisement for the military, whose predecessor was proven to hugely boost military enlistment?

This is a great question. Thank you, Lily. The short answer is because I'm a hypocrite. I mean, that genuinely is, if we want accountability and honest, the short answer is that I'm a hypocrite. A slightly longer answer has to do, and this is me reaching, but when I watch Top Gun Maverick, which I think is distinct from Top Gun in its relationship to the military. For sure. And, you know, Top Gun famously set up recruitment tables, the military set up recruitment tables outside Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick is obviously like a jingoistic American you know war nightmare one version of it but there

is there's something knowing in the fact that and and honestly more craven and cynical in the way that Top Gun Maverick does not name any of the countries or places where the geopolitical skirmish is happening. Everything is untethered from the real world, which again, you know, basically persuades you to forget the real world consequences of war and specifically American military intervention, to use a euphemism, for the past hundred years. So, like, I get it. Those stakes, to Sean's point, like, are real and it is, like, unexamined, I guess, within the movie

to the point that the unexamination feels like a choice, which is maybe why I decide to cut it a little slack. It's a little bit of the like, you know, I'm just going in and I know that this is like a ridiculous movie. It's not camp, but there is something almost just aware about it or aware about the way that much of its audience is receiving it. I respectfully disagree. Okay. I'll tell you what I think the differentiation is between those two things, but I would just say that Top Gun Maverick is just a better movie.

And so it being a more satisfying emotional experience, I think is what alleviates some angst that you might have about, you know, promoting the military-industrial complex. The one thing to consider here is that it feels like air is made in deep coordination with many people from the Nike corporation. Top Gun Maverick, unlike Top Gun, doesn't feel as much guided by the US military. It may have been. It just doesn't feel that way because we already have a relationship with Pete Mitchell, and we're basically watching

the movie for Pete Mitchell's journey. Not like, will he make it as a pilot? We're thinking more about like, our guy Tom Cruise. That was the divining feeling that the movie gives you. I think that it is hypocritical.

I think you frankly had more of an issue with it in Ayer than I did. I also think you were very influenced by the screening that you and I attended together, which felt very like the Spawn Con version of a screening where people were like standing up 82

minutes into a movie and being like i love to see a jordan shoe and if you watched it at home you might not have felt this as um aggressively as you did i do think that the movie like many other movies um that we're going to talk about this year is fully indebted to the corporate structure that it is promoting. There's no doubt about it. To not cite it, I think would be just a failure on our part. Whether or not you can just let the

rest of the movie wash over you, I think ultimately depends on how much you like the movie. And Air I think is very good. Top Gun Maverick I think is basically like the pinnacle of mainstream popcorn entertainment that differentiation really matters which one is more destructive i mean they're both destructive you know like sweatshops and nike is something that we know about and is even referenced in the film yeah um the military industrial complex is

wildly destructive and has been just ruining people's lives for hundreds of years like all of both of those things can be true and both of these things can be great entertainments i don't think that there is a way to kind of make sense of those complex feelings while watching one movie about one thing the thing with air and this is going to be kind of re-litigated or at least like understood a little bit more deeply on friday because the movie is going to be kind of relitigated or at least like understood a little bit more deeply on friday because the movie is going to be on amazon prime on friday and only like 50 million dollars worth of americans have seen this movie and so a shitload of movie people are about to see this movie most people are not gonna care they are not gonna care about the feeling of corporate

indebted or whatever that this movie has. They're just going to be like, I love Matt Damon. I love Jordan's. What an uplifting story, a great American business story. And that'll be that. Some people that will feel the way that we felt, which is like, this feels a little slimy. It feels like a little bit. And I think if you accept it as a, like a pure metaphor for Affleck and damon's new company it actually is a little bit more creatively interesting it feels a little bit more like in the spirit of a 70s movie that francis ford coppola would make while trying to keep his life together but you know it was like they used venture capital to raise money for it and they sold it to amazon and they got nike's

approval and you know they got michael jordan's family's approval like they they used all of the levers of power to make this movie. And if you don't recognize that or acknowledge it, you're not doing service to the movie because that's what the movie is about. It's also so specific in the way that it's grounded in corporate marketing that it, you know, which is not to say that Top Gun Maverick isn't so specifically grounded in flying giant warplanes. But he threw out the rulebook.

Right, he threw out the rulebook. Right, he threw out the rulebook. I mean, there is also, and this is, you know, a side note of Sean's point that, like, one, Top Gun Maverick is just like a better movie, but Top Gun Maverick's end result is, you know, planes flying really fast in the sky and looking amazing on a movie screen. You know, there is just something about, like, ooh, big plane, go fast.

And the result of air is like a beautifully glossy photo of a shoe, which, you know, again, no disrespect to shoes, which I love. Well, even more so, that's the result of the movie, but the cinematic equivalent is a boardroom meeting. Yeah. You know, like that is the most cinematic sequence in the movie is Matt Damon delivering a great speech in a boardroom. That's just not the same emotionally as watching planes fly. Yeah.

So in our lizard brains, I think we are more likely to give it a pass. In general, like, I don't know. We just talked about Guardians 3 and Super Mario Brothers. Like, those things are weirdly more insidious to the culture, in my opinion. But reasonable people can disagree. No, I think it's a genuinely good question. I appreciate that it was also asked genuinely because at some point it is

like, okay, I can turn my blinders off for this and not for that. There's a difference between selling you something and normalizing something. The air is like they're selling you Nikes. You can go to the store and buy Nikes. You can't go to the store and buy an F-18

from Lockheed Martin. Like, what they're doing is normalizing something that is normalized every day in our lives, like, in myriad different places. And it's, like, less direct to consumer

in Top Gun Maverick than it is in a movie like Air. What's worse is interesting, though. Because normalizing the idea of someone dropping bombs as heroism is arguably much worse.

I think what's worse is clear. I just think it's like how much is it straying from what the original intent of like a movie is.

You know? And I think that Air is a unique example in comparison. Intent slips through your fingers though when you're looking at something critically.

Like at a certain point you just have to junk that and think about what the consequences of the art is and i think it's good to do that for everything that we do here and like i have no problem participating in the mass media of all of this stuff we orient episodes around some of the garbageiest garbage around because it is our culture and it's like our job to talk about it in a thoughtful way i do think that sometimes you and i because we're so close we're so close in age we've had such similar experiences we're sort of educated in a similar way we tend to arrive at the same conclusions for things like this because there's just a generational gap and for us like we are not quite gen x but have gen x mentality

on certain things and this is a gen x mentality way of looking at art. And it is valuable. But it's not going to be everyone's experience. And I'm frankly fine with that. It's not my job to convince people to feel differently about air than if they really like it. Like, if you really like it, please enjoy it. I appreciated this question because I think it understood, you know, it was interrogating as well, which is good. I mean, I don't have a consistent answer for this. All I have is the way that I feel about things.

Pretty classic episode of The Big Picture here. I've been challenged on Christopher Nolan. Amanda's been challenged by a Marvel film. We've both been challenged by product placement and corporate power infesting our art. And geopolitical threats um you want to do one more yeah uh jeff asks i went to see how to blow up a pipeline the other day and was the only one there when's the last time you had a theater all to yourself i keep thinking this is going to happen to me because i go at know, kind of off-brand hours often during

the week. And even sometimes when I'm reserving the seat, I'm like, oh, it's just me. Like, this is going to be my time. And God bless Los Angeles. There was always one other person there at like, you know. Really hard to do this in Los Angeles. 2 p.m. on a Tuesday. Almost impossible. The Burbank 16 people are showing out midweek. I think I said this. This is the most profitable AMC in America right now. It is driving the most revenue out of all the AMCs. I like that movie theater. It's okay. You know, I like it

too. The parking stresses me out. The parking's not great, but that's a good IMAX screen. That's a really good IMAX screen. It is a good IMAX screen. At least it's free. Everyone who works there is very nice. It's a good movie theater. I don't know, but everywhere I go, Oh, no. You know what? I did have one to myself. I just remembered.

The Thursday afternoon showing of A Good Person at I Pick Pasadena. That's cursed. That's a cursed day. But I have to tell you, everyone at I Pick was really nice to me, and the chicken Caesar wrap I had was delicious. If anyone at I Pick Pasadena

is listening, I need more Friday noon or afternoon screenings. Okay? Sean and I are having a real scheduling problem with Book Club 2. Trying to see Book Club 2, man.

And Alamo, sexist Alamo, is not even showing Book Club 2. I Pick Pasadena is only doing 6 p.m. and 9.15. I have to be honest, I Pick Pasadena is only doing 6pm and 9.15 I have to be honest

I pick Pasadena everyone who is going to see book club 2 is asleep by 9.15 alright okay that also is ageist

I this is a weird humble brag but this happens to me all the time because I go to a lot of screenings and a lot of screenings

are set up for me and a small number of people no's that answer sean i'm giving you my honest in fact i had one of these this year for a movie that this is the most shithead thing ever that i'm embargoed to not talk about for like months you've talked about it with me and and it was like the best screen and it's fine it was like if i was internationally if i was a billionaire it's how i would see movies. I would build this theater that I saw it in by myself

and I would not let anyone in and I would sit alone eating Sour Patch Kids, watching great cinema. I did see Bo is Afraid a second time in a room by myself.

And that film is not doing well at the box office, which is too bad. I saw it with several, many people. This was actually

at Burbank Town Center and there was one woman who just decided to sit in the back with a headpiece telephone and just roll calls for the first five minutes of Bo's Afraid.

Incredibly rude. Okay. What a chaotic mailbag. Bob, thanks. Thank you, Bobby. Thanks for choosing these questions. As always.

Setting us up here. You know, later this week, we're going back to 35 over 35. We're going to go back to our movie star list. Holy shit. Wah won a Pulitzer. No way. It's Pulitzer Day. Oh, my God.

For what? For what? For Stay True, Pulitzer Prize and memoir. Wow. Wow. Bobby, leave us in. Congratulations. And if you haven't read Stay True.

Hwasoo. Yeah, that is our friend Hwasoo. I'm so sorry. I'm so excited. I didn't even say his. Wow. That is awesome. You just checked out Twitter at the end of the pod?

I don't know. I opened it. It was closed. But now we get this news break. That is amazing news. I'm so excited. One of my favorite people in the world who is a listener of this show and is a tremendous writer if you haven't read it. See, it's one of the best books I have read in some time. Please check it out. And he won a Pulitzer. Wow. Well, that's been

the big picture. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll see you later this week. Thank you.