The Big Picture - ‘Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves’ Is … Good. But Are Movies Just Brands Now?

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Sean and Amanda dig into the surprisingly fun new ‘Dungeons & Dragons’ adaptation from the filmmakers who brought us ‘Game Night,’ before discussing a new sort of IP boom in Hollywood (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by A.V. Rockwell to discuss her debut feature, ‘A Thousand and One’ (58:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Bobby Wagner Guest: A.V. Rockwell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, longtime writer with The Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, Plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about D&D nerds. Later in this show, I have a conversation with A.V. Rockwell, the writer-director of one of the very best films I saw at Sundance this year, A Thousand and One. It's a story of a young mother fighting to survive with her young son in a rapidly gentrifying New York at the turn of the century. Brilliantly shot, heartbreaking movie. It's out today. Go see it. Listen to my conversation with A.V.

She's really a filmmaker to watch. But first, the big release of the weekend, Amanda, is Dungeons and Dragons, Honor Among Thieves, a film that when it was announced announced before I knew anything about it, I looked at with a great degree of dread and cynicism. And then I saw the film and I thought, hey, there's a reason to be hopeful about everything in this world.

So listen, I came into this studio today and I was like, I'm not going to be an asshole. And I don't think that this movie is deserving of being an asshole at all. I think it is successful at what it is. But like, we don't need to take it to like Cinema is Saved. You know what I mean? We can exist in like a happy middle ground where it's like, would you like to go see a Dungeons and Dragons movie? Then you're going to have a nice time. Does like Indiana Jones but magic and the worst CGI you've ever seen sound fun?

Great. A plus. Go to the movies. My theater seemed to have a great time. I didn't have a bad time. And can that be enough? Do we need to fully go into, you know? You have your opinion and I have mine.

And I think it's great that we can disagree on things. I think that there's certainly a for what it is, this is very good point of view. But I think it's interesting to talk about what Dungeons & Dragons kind of is in the culture because it's not something that I have a whole lot of familiarity with. Like I basically had to research it because I didn't play as a kid. And so, you know, it's reputation.

It's a tabletop game. And it's a game, it's reputation. It's a tabletop game. And it's a game, it's reputation is a game that nerds play in their basement while they're not getting laid. You know, like that is really our cultural identification with Dungeons & Dragons. Even before like the nerd, I don't want to say, it's not a renaissance, but like the nerd breakthrough in the culture. It was a shorthand for, you know, nerd slime. And even in the aftermath of the MCU and things like that rising, I think it still had this sensibility of like, this is for like true nerds, like true, you know, RPG kids.

But the truth is, when you look at what it is and what it has influenced, I mean, especially video games in our culture, like RPGs in general are so informed by whatever this game is and what it does and how you take on the role of a character when you play it, that because I didn't have a familiarity with it and it's a blind spot for me when I heard that the movie was announced, I was like, this is just almost certainly not going to be for me. Then I saw that it's John Francis Daly and Jonathan Goldstein, who are the, I guess, co-writers and directors of this movie, along with Michael Giglio.

And I got more excited because these are the folks behind Game Night, which is one of my favorite comedies of the last decade. Mine as well. And it's like a brilliant movie. And I think a movie that is now no longer underrated, but upon its release was overlooked and in part because these same two guys had made

2015's Vacation which is a kind of fun kind of reboot legacy sequel to the National Lampoon's Vacation films. Not the most successful movie in my opinion. Has a lot of flaws but people sort of were overlooking Game Night because they were like that movie wasn't good.

And then it has taken on this incredible cult fandom, really. And so there was a reason to look forward to the Dungeons & Dragons movie. Nevertheless, still a Dungeons & Dragons movie. And then Chris Pine announced as the star, who, for my money, is one of the only legitimately entertaining, great leading men we got in that era of stars.

You know, I'm not as high on the other Chris's as I am on Pine. Although I did think you were going to say he's the only legitimate Chris. He's the only Chris I recognize. That would not be fair. But in terms of, gosh. Who's the third one?

Evans, Pine. Pratt, Hemsworth, Evans, Pine. Oh, Hemsworth, of course. Pratt's an asterisk, respectfully. I know that you were very excited to see him voice your favorite person, Mario. I'm not excited about that. What I wanted was an Italian-American man to do it. But I think that all four of them are doing just fine.

None of them have ended up- Is Mario Italian-American? Maybe he's just Italian. Yeah, what's the cultural background there i don't know like should they have gotten marcello mostriani to voice mario i'm just like is he where is like super mario land is it here and is it in the united states in our hearts what are you talking about i don't know but you said he's italian-american and i was like is there back it's in wisconsin What do you mean?

You seem to have some knowledge. Where is the land of tunnels and Goombas? I mean, I guess, so they're plumbers. We know that, right? They're plumbers, yeah. They're whisked away through the piping system to a magical land of Princess Peach. But where does the pipe start? I think it's subterranean. No it's

not because they have to like they have to walk on those weird little bricks. This is you filibustering because you've been deleted from the Super Mario Brothers podcast and you're just trying to get your shots up. This is the third time that Amanda has sung the Super Mario Brothers theme song to me today. So unhinged. Truly, truly unhinged. Do you ever play D&D? No, I was actually, since you did the research, how does one play Dungeons and Dragons? This is a real question. And I was also Googling some of it. I didn't totally understand. And then I saw you put a whole segment here in the outline so literally like what do you mean tabletop game and people assuming characters like are there

cards is it like one of those murder mystery things in the box where you're given descriptions of who your character is um it's i think i have not played i'm sure we're gonna whatever i say here i'll be told i'm dead wrong about what it is i'm saying but i think it is a little bit more like risk in that the world is a little bit more open and you're sort of building around it. You take on the mantle of a character and you can decide to work with other players or not with other players. I believe a die is critical to the game in terms of like making movement around the world that has been created. And, you know, each character has different attributes or weapons or skills

and that helps you kind of determine where you're going in the game. And there's an effort in the movie, I think, to use those same kind of tropes, archetypes in the storytelling. In this movie, which is secretly more of a heist movie than it is a high fantasy movie,

we can talk about that a bit, but you do have the Pine character as kind of a con artist. The Michelle Rodriguez character is like a barbarian. The Justice Smith character is a sorcerer. They each have these kind of archetypal roles that they play in the execution of the game. And so that's an attempt to simultaneously like use the broad outline of a Dungeons and Dragons game, but then kind of abandon the conceit beyond that. You know, there doesn't seem to be a lot that is relevant to the tabletop game. At least I didn't feel like I missed any references,

even though I'm sure there are Easter eggs for hardcore fans. Even the filmmakers don't seem like hardcore fans of Dungeons and Dragons. There were, I went to a preview screening and it, which was packed. And there were a few times where there were i went to a preview screening and it which was packed and there were a few times where there were references and like people kind of cheered or did something that it you know it was similar to the feeling that i often have in a marvel movie and you know i turned to you and i'm like who's that and you're like that's you know modok the killing machine he's a core marvel

character and i'm like uh-huh did i say exactly that in the film? You said that he was an important character. And then Corey Stoll's giant head. An important character like Othello? No, you were like, he is a recurring signature character. Because I asked you why they were cheering. And you were like, because he is important. What's it like to be friends with me? Is it normal?

Well, I honestly spent the next 30 minutes being like, was Sean serious? Or were you making fun of me? and being like, he's important. But, you know, because I was like, that's a really, that's like a man with a giant stretched face. That's right. You know? This movie could have used more MODOK, honestly. I really enjoyed MODOK. It did need like one little creature character, you know, the Boba Frick, the R2-D2.

Unusual to not leverage our interest in that kind of figure. Yeah, both from a merchandising and so I would agree that despite like the Easter eggs that I sort of, I noticed other people picking up on, it kind of, it uses the backstory of the characters just to create a ready set world and then they go on an adventure so you don't need all of the you know mythology and understanding of how the entire world works they sort of they explain it to you but so i that's interesting but they don't i wouldn't say that they develop all of those characters like enough that like little kids are going to be like i want want to be, you know, like Doric, the druid or something. What's a druid?

I believe it's like a monk-like figure who is very faithful to like a pagan religion. Okay. But also has special powers. Well, in this world, yeah. Right, yeah. But we have druids here. Right, but so they didn't have,

there isn't any, whether it's like the little BB-8 character or the Babu Frick or the, what are the? You love Star Wars. It's the best of the things, yeah. Not if you're watching Mando this season, man. I know, Zach was watching it last night and was like really mad, but I don't do that. I just do, you know. Yeah, stick to the core movies.

Yeah, and I like less Jedi. What were the little chiclets in the reboot? Yeah. Bobby, help me out. I forget. You know, and they meet me. Porgs. Yeah, Porgs. Porgs, thank you.

Porgs, right. Yeah. This doesn't have any of that. Is this your key complaint about the film? No, my key complaint are the visual effects, which we'll get to. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is that you've got filmmakers here who you know john francis daly is an actor and he is he got his start on freaks and geeks which charmingly featured the game dungeons and dragons and there was this marketing promo this week featuring um sam levine and martin star his

fellow geeks from that show playing dnd 20 years years later. Their D&D was featured on the show. Still, like, Francis Daly and Goldstein are screenwriters first. They've had a lot of experience writing

for these kinds of films. In fact, they wrote the script for Spider-Man Homecoming. They did a pass on the forthcoming Flash movie. They know this world.

That is the, apparently, the greatest cinema event in history. That's right. apparently the greatest cinema event in history. That's right. Tom Cruise called me on the phone. He said,

sir, it's Tom. I've seen The Flash and this is what cinema needs and you must share that message with the world. And so here I am sharing it. And so they did a pass

on that movie and then they, I think that they were up for directing both the Spider-Man movie and the Flash movie and they didn't get either job.

And, you know, I wonder because this kind of directing is different than directing Game Night. Game Night is a practical world, no CGI universe, and making films with CGI is very complicated. The state of CGI has been much discussed this year. Victoria Alonso was recently fired by Marvel, and how she managed or failed to manage the VFX

teams across that has been a huge controversy in the hearts and minds of Chris Ryan and many others. And I, I don't, I didn't think it was terrible, but I also felt that it was. It made Ant-Man Quantumania look like Lawrence of Arabia. I don't agree. I don't agree. I like, at the end, Hugh Grant is on a very large pedestal in a stadium. That part was bad.

Of some kind. That part was quite poor. And that looked like something that I could have made an MS Paint, you know, and then like cut Hugh Grant out with scissors from a magazine and paste it on. I felt like there was a lot of location shooting in this movie, which is something that something like Quantumania doesn't have. So there were times where there were there was some really good location photography. That's kind of faint praise, I think, for a movie like this.

But I at least felt like I was in a real place. Now, it might have been somewhere in Europe or New Zealand. I'm not sure where they shot. But there were aspects of it that didn't just feel like the glop that we see in a lot of movies like this. That's true. But when they had to do all of the magic and everything that they had to do for Glopp, respectfully, like, no. Yes.

And there is a long sequence in the Underdark, which is a part of the Dungeons and Dragons mythology I learned, that is when you checked out, I think, emotionally on the film. And quite literally, which is disrespectful to the filmmakers. And I do not condone that behavior. Listen, it was just an extended bathroom break but I timed it based on, they went into the Underdark and I was like, well, this looks bad.

And I went to the bathroom and then I remembered that I needed to order some children's books for a friend. So I did that. Congratulations. The thing I, was I that friend? No, it was a different friend. But would you, do you guys have the Steve Light books?

Do you have Trains Go and Boats Go? I'm familiar with those books because I've read them to Knox. Oh, yeah. Oh, right. He really loves Boats Go. This is just an unsolicited recommendation for anyone. Steve Light is a wonderful artist. All those books are really good.

Again, are you on the payroll? What are you talking about? I would love to be on Steve Light's payroll. Anyway, no, I was getting Trains Go for a different young friend who's really interested in trains.

Anything you can do to not talk about the film here on this podcast. Anything you can do. I talked about it plenty. And maybe if they had more Babu Frick, you know? We've been recording

for about six minutes here. Got plenty, long ways to go here. I think it's a really interesting movie to talk about because it's just an excuse to just do a comedy it's just it's just it's just a heist comedy there's there's certainly like family drama elements to it and there is true fantasy stuff going on in the film but the film to me when it's working it's working because it is more like oceans 11 yes it's not oceans 11 obviously but it's more like that than it is like Dragon Slayer from the 80s.

You know what I mean? Like a classical fantasy story. I will say as I watch the movie, my admiration for Peter Jackson in the Lord of the Rings movies is like anew, like grown anew because it's so hard

to do these stories. And anytime you get into the magic and sorcery aspects of the story and characters very earnestly explaining how magic works, it's like, God, can we just go back to telling jokes? Like, this part of it just is not engaging. Well, but they've got a light touch.

I'll give them credit for that. It does not get bogged down in a way that I feel a lot of other other otherworldly franchise products do even marvel and dcu and then suddenly you're explaining the science cyborg you know and then this laser can bring someone through the time dimension to whatever and i'm just like jesus christ you're right it's not as it's not as bad as so many of the films that are so expositionally bound there is still a lot of exposition that's going to kind of make you grown throughout the movie it feels like the two i don't know the kind of like examples or the bar that has been set here is the princess bride and monty python and the holy grail that are like set in those worlds but have a very different comic

sensibility than what you would expect in a movie like this you know this is an excalibur it isn't um it's not serious and when it's at its least serious, I found it to be at its most effective. I think I'm very influenced in this experience because I saw this movie with my little sister, Grace. And when I told her that we were going to a premiere for this movie, she was like, oh. Grace is my favorite person. You know, I was trying to find like a great,

exciting premiere to bring my sister to, you know, big brother living in Hollywood. I got all this access to cool stuff. And this was the best I could do for the dates that she was there. But I was like, you know what? It'll be a fancy, a fancy screening room. It'll be a fancy party afterwards. Like there will be a reason to do it. She didn't totally realize it was a Chris Pine movie. Yeah. And then when it became clear that it was a Chris Pine starring vehicle, she was like, oh, interesting. And then Justice Smith and Sophia Lillis showed up. Justice Smith, who is relevant to her in part because of Detective Pikachu. And Sophia Lillis, of course, from the It movies, both movies that she loves. And I could see like her facial expression changing throughout the

screening where she was going from like skeptical to intrigued to like delighted by the end of the movie. And then the movie and then the movie ended and she was like that was great and she loved it and that obviously made me feel like they kind of accomplished their mission of what they're trying to do trying to appeal to a young audience they're trying to cast people across generations in this movie yeah you know they have a kind of the movie can rest on my shoulders true blue leading man and chris pine but it also has uh and Lillis, who I'm talking about.

It has your boy Hugh Grant. Sure does. Just having a ball, it seemed like. I guess so. So I mentioned I went to a preview screening, but you could buy tickets to it. So it was on AMC, and they thus now had the thing

that they apparently do for every movie that you see in a movie theater where the cast records it. Hey, thanks so much for coming out to the theater. And they had the whole cast there. And Chris Pine, bless him, is like an immaculate short-sleeved polo knit fitted sweater. And it's just like, this movie is about heroes, but you're the real heroes. Everyone's doing their lines or whatever. And Hugh Grant is sitting far right, as far off the screen as he possibly can.

All these people do their like very belabored marketing stuff for like, thanks so much. And then Hugh Grant just puts on his Hugh Grant face and is just like, and now time for Dungeons and Dragons, Honor Among Thieves. And it was like the only thing that they could get him to say contractually was the name of the movie. God love him. He is absolutely wonderful. He is pretty funny in this movie and is probably playing the most hard comic tone.

He's just playing a truly evil character. He's borderline in a Mel Brooks movie. In a movie that is trying to play some of this story straight about a father who has been separated from his daughter because he's been in prison and is trying to reunite yeah and hugh grant steps in as this nefarious figure who kind of takes on the role of fatherhood away from chris pine and pine you know pine can shift gears like that's kind of one of the reasons why i like him so much is he knows how to play kind of every tone hugh grant is like i got one pitch in this movie, and it's really goofy.

Hugh Grant is also like, I have four days, you know, and I will scene steal for 20 minutes here at the beginning, and then why don't you call me at the end for my green screen performance, and then I'm out. Another person who I think really holds the movie together is Michelle Rodriguez, who, like, I'm kind of always happy to see in a movie, but movie but I feel like weirdly this movie would not have worked at all without her. I feel like sometimes she's critical to the fast films sometimes she's kind of an afterthought in the films.

In this case the bond and friendship between her and Pine's character and her being really the muscle of the movie in many ways and kind of the mother figure

the leader like she's kind of the emotional like fulcrum of the film in a lot of ways. That also I don't i actually do not want to spoil the amazing cameo in this movie but did you miss the cameo was it like was

it in you missed the cameo no this is amazing that you missed this this is so good that you missed this it's one of the best moments in movies of the year i i will i'm not going to say anything about it but i will explain it to you off mic. Okay. And then you will be like, I can't believe I bought a book in a bathroom and I missed out on this. I had to go to the bathroom. This is remarkable.

Anyhow, to your point about the emotional, there's a critical emotional sequence for her. Right. Where she returns home. And when she does that, she sees her past. And she's very good in this movie. And frankly, like, the movie hinges on her, you know, her weight in battle. You know what I mean?

And it kind of doesn't work without her. And then the last figure in the film is Rajayjan Page, who I have not watched any, a second of Bridgerton. But I did see him in The Gray Man, and I thought that's one of the worst actors I've ever seen in my life.

Yes, correct. I thought he was better in this movie. I did too. I was concerned. I think that's another reason because he shows up for the Underdark thing and I was like, okay, well, here we go. And I had seen a little bit of Bridgerton before I fell asleep during the important parts. It was a tough time for me. That's not a criticism of Bridgerton. You just were pregnant. No, I had had surgery after that one but like same but same difference you know what i mean i was like i was physically

compromised and in a recovery mode and then fell asleep during the sex scenes which what was the point but so i did my expectations were low what is the point of bridgerton i love your honesty i love your honesty that's what it was sold on. That is what that is. If Netflix rebounds, it is because of the Bridgerton sex scenes, just so you know. So why don't you get real about the industry that you spend so much time covering? You make it sound like Netflix is the Silicon Valley bank. Like they're going to be fine. They got a lot of content. It's going to be okay. Anyway, my expectations were low. And as a result, I thought he was very funny. I thought he got the tone. Yeah, exactly.

You know, he plays a kind of know-it-all hero character that it almost feels like a parody of what his persona has become in the aftermath of Bridgerton, which I thought was good. That guy being like, I'm quitting Bridgerton to be James Bond, though, is like the funniest thing. Is that something that happened? Yeah, that happened. He was only in season one of Bridgerton because he's like, I need to move on and explore new opportunities. And then it was like heavy, fake James Bond rumors for like a week, which is how you know it's his camp. Okay. Floating it. He does not feel like a James Bond to me.

No, but I did think that he had the right comic tone in this film. He did. I just think, I don't think he has the gravitas. I agree with you. That Bond needs. But I haven't seen enough of him, honestly. And I was pleasantly surprised that he didn't ruin the movie. Because when he's in The Gray Man,

I was like, turn this movie off. This is absolutely atrocious. Okay, I mean, has there ever been a high fantasy movie that you've seen and been like, I'm into this. I get this world and I want to be a part of it. No.

So it's just, it's one of those genres that you're just like, this is, I don't get it. Yeah, I guess the closest I've been is like sort of the medieval, like, are we counting like Arthur Guinevere, that sort of stuff as fantasy? Yeah, I think so. I mean, if you're pulling the sword from the magical stone and Merlin is a sorcerer. Right. And there's magic and all of that stuff. Yeah.

That song. That is like, that's the closest, but that was more in book form. And once again, it was Mists of Avalon, which was really about the sex. So, which is kind of also the secret pull of like most of these movies that aren't, or most of these franchises that aren't Dungeons and Dragons. You should watch John Borman's Excalibur.

I'd be curious to know if you would like that. It's Helen Mirren and a very young Liam Neeson and a very young Gabriel Byrne. Yeah. And it's simultaneously very silly but very serious. And you might, it's very sexy too. It's unusually sexy for a King Arthur movie. Right. But the thing about these fantasy series is that a lot of them the

sex scenes are sort of the appeal or the draw for a lot of people i mean i'm basing this mostly on my husband who is a secret uh loves fantasy fantasy nerd um especially the wheel of time books but he's like yeah they were just like a shitload of sex scenes. Has he evinced an interest in this movie? When I left to, I left like 15 minutes before my son's bedtime. And I was like, I'm going to see Dungeons and Dragons now. And he was like, I gotta be honest. I would rather go to the movies and watch Dungeons and Dragons by myself right now than, you know, wrangle our child into his sleep sack. That's what he said. Yes.

So that's as much as I've gotten from him. Well this movie doesn't have really any sex. No. It's not really about that. There's not even really a romantic side plot. And it like sort of has magic but the magic is secondary. There's like a third

tier Harry Potter magic subplot. Agreed. Which is like fine. I like Harry Potter. Does that count? I love Harry Potter. Yeah I think that Agreed. Which is, like, fine. I like Harry Potter. Does that count? I love Harry Potter. Yeah, I think that counts. Which I know is, like, not a... You like those films?

Not as much. I loved those books. I absolutely do not endorse anything that J.K. Rowling says on her own time. That shit's a mess. Nothing she says? What if she's like, I like apples?

I, like, honestly, stop talking, J.K. Rowling, is what I have to say. But I do like the Harry Potter books. I was very moved by them. And those are magic and fantasy, I suppose. I mean, they are. Yeah, they're fantasy. Yeah, but they're like, and once it gets to like, you know, florid medieval fairy tale, you know, good King Wenceslas. I'm like, I don't know what this is.

Okay. You asked. Did you think that this movie would... What are your high fantasy favorites? You like Lord of the Rings, I know. Yeah. Joanna Robinson and I talked about this a little bit last August actually um and there are not a ton of fantasy films that I like because I think it's a really really hard genre to execute on it's just better in literature form it's like

it's an imagination my um my in-laws have like a big relationship to Tolkien and like my Eileen's brother is really into Tolkien and like it was really critical of the movies because he's like so invested in stories um and my roommate in college was a huge Tolkien fan as well and so like Lord of the Rings was just on in our dorm like all the time like I have a big exposure to that world but it's not my it's not first in line for me I was always more into science fiction as a kid and horror those are really more the categories for me I give them credit for kind of getting away with a fantasy movie here and just using it to make a funny comedy. You know,

like this isn't like run out. If you love Lord of the Rings, it's more like run out. If you love game night, but because to me it is like fully operating as a comedy with a couple of story beats that are critical to the fantasy world. And you have to have some of that CGI stuff that you're talking about. But I thought it was,

I mean, I left, you know, I, I did think it was funny i chuckled i did it i mean it it takes a lot to make me laugh out loud it really just has to be stepbrothers i'm really angry that you guys don't believe that i liked i like stepbrothers prove it okay let's just turn it on right now bobby cue it up um there would be a copyright infringement there if we just ran the audio. Seven Brothers is not exactly the most politically correct. No, no.

Aging fascinatingly. No, I mean, I had a decent time. To me, this was, as I said, it was fantasy light Indiana Jones with like none of the practical acumen of Indiana of Indiana Jones but I mean that as a real compliment both to Chris Pine who has a little bit of that like insouciant like you know side eye Harrison Ford thing going absolutely and and to the chemistry and the patter that they build with the rest of the cast and and you know and then like they're in search of you know some holy grail type object that isn't really what it's cracked up to be spoiler can we talk about pine for a bit love to huge fan all over the place in his choices truly chaotic

chaotic or just everywhere maybe he's the center of the film universe and we're just realizing it i don't think he's the center of the film universe candidly i i think that he has obviously been a part of a couple of very big franchises yeah star trek and wonder woman foremost among them i really hope they make another star trek film okay i was very mixed on the last Star Trek film Star Trek Beyond although I'm not a Trekkie and many people have said

that that is the closest to like a true episode of the show the first film I think is like is it the best franchise

revival like it might be the best franchise revival just like a genuinely exciting good looking cool movie

Wonder Woman the first Wonder Woman is good. I know you like it a lot. I like it a lot. And I really like his performance. I think he and Gal Gadot have really great chemistry in it. I like it when a movie star of his caliber,

again, it's a Harrison Ford thing. Oh, he's kind of our new Harrison Ford because it's like when a true movie star takes on the daffy, supporting, romantic interest in a movie centered around a woman. Just way to my heart. There's also a little bit of like, can you believe I'm in this movie feeling to him when he's in these movies, which I appreciate. And he doesn't do it in a way that mocks you for liking the movie. He's made some stuff that I really, really like.

You know, Unstoppable, of course. The tarantino favorite was a rewatchable is one of the last tony scott films really good movie heller high water is probably the best pure movie movie that he's been in he's been the lead of and i thought that that was going to portend like a different kind of career for him which is not to say that every movie needs to be a hyper-serious drama about bank failure in middle America, but I wish he would make more movies like this. He does make

interesting choices, though. Like, he made a movie called The Contractor, which really doesn't work but fits firmly in a sub-genre of movies that CR and I like a lot about, you know,

hired ex-army who go out and accidentally murder people on behalf of the U.S. government. Yeah. Always interested in that. And, I mean, his most recent thing is being at the center of the Don't Worry Darling controversy. Which was only six months ago, but feels like it just, like, it feels like five years ago now. And it doesn't really feel like there's a stain on him.

Here's a thing that has been happening with you recently. Okay. him here's a thing that has been happening with you recently okay is that we have cool talented actors uh-huh making interesting choices that don't always pan out and then you get on a podcast and you're like why didn't you make this thing work why didn't you make everything perfect sometimes it doesn't work out you know what i'm saying how dare you you know i don't worry darling was i thought a pretty stupid movie but you could see why you would want to be in an olivia wilde film directed sorry starring florence pew like set in palm springs like all the ideas i mean it was definitely like a buzzy thing until it didn't work out i thought all the old knives made absolutely no sense.

I was extremely disappointed. But I like that he tried to make like a weird spy thriller. Like, this means war. The romantic comedy he made in 2012 with Reese Witherspoon and Tom Hardy is possibly one of the worst romantic comedies I've ever seen. But Tom Hardy, Reese Witherspoon, romantic comedy. Again, I like that he tried. They don't all work out. Into the Woods, bad.

That I wouldn't have done. Jack Ryan, Shadow Recruit, bad. Sure, but... A Wrinkle in Time, bad. I can't believe that it took me this long to connect the Harrison Ford. I mean, he was certainly modeling his career after it. And yet, he's like a...

His James T. Kirk is sick, you know? And, I mean, he's made some movies that are interesting and solid, you know, The Finest Hours or Z for Zachariah. Like, those movies are, they're interesting kind of side projects to the franchise work.

But it's been, it's been kind of a, it's been kind of a tough five years for Pine. Princess Diaries 2. I haven't seen the film. He is the romantic interest in Princess Diaries 2. Also, you remember Just My Luck with Lindsay Lohan? I did see that film. Yeah.

Is he the romantic lead in that? Okay. That's cool. Listen. Anne Hathaway, Lindsay Lohan. Like, oh my gosh. Two of my queens. Yeah.

That's what I'm saying. Wow. He's trying things. When's Lohan going to get back on the horse? When's she going to get in a major motion picture? Yeah. She's expecting. Yes.

Well, she and her husband are expecting a kid. My goodness. Isn't that great? Mazel tov to Lindsay. That's great. Okay. So, you know, I think she's doing that. Do you think she was up for any of the parts in Dungeons and Dragons on her among thieves?

No, but she could have been a good druid. Okay. I'm delighted to inform you that Chris Pine's next project is a film called Pool Man. Okay. Which is co-written and directed by Chris Pine. Here is the premise for this film. A man tending to the swimming pool uncovers a sizable water heist,

one in the same vein as Chinatown. Here is the cast of this film. Chris Pine is the titular pool man, Darren Barronman, Annette Bening, Danny DeVito, your girl Ariana DeBose Oh no.

Jennifer Jason Leigh Dewanda Wise and Ray Wise. So he just like rewrote Chinatown but for a pool man and cast himself in it? I believe so.

Do you know about Pine Fine Wines? You did explain this to me recently. I'm happy to hear that it's real. So you know he's got to fund that venture. I don't think this film has distribution at the moment. And it is also

produced by Patty Jenkins, director of the Wonder Woman films, who does not have another film lined up. I think Pine's going to be just fine. I do as well. I would like to have some of his wine. I would too. I would really love to try Miss Sauviby, which is the name that he gave the Sauvignon Blanc. I'm available. I'd like to talk to you about another issue that's happening in movies that is related to D&D. Sure. So this movie, of course, is based on a board game. It's not the first movie to be based on a board game.

In fact, we've seen Clue, one of my faves. Yeah. We've seen the film Battleship, which is a movie, certainly. Rihanna's in it. Yep, Taylor Kitsch. There's a lot of people in it. Peter Berg directed that film. I wish that we had this show when that movie, certainly. Rihanna's in it. Yep, Taylor Kitsch. There's a lot of people in it. Peter Berg directed that film. I wish that we had this show

when that movie came out. Yeah. The work that we could have done with Battleship. I know, I know. It's a missed opportunity. Maybe the next Watch Along in 2024. And then Ouija,

and Ouija 2, which is better than Ouija. Ouija, I understand that's how it's spelled. The movies got me saying it that way. Because they had, like, brand enforcement, like, people on set. It is on set it is how i pronounce it as a kid but then i think watching the movies i was like oh i've been doing it wrong you're a corporate shell that may be true not as much as the studios

across these united states which are also releasing a movie about barbie which is a doll the forthcoming film about the creation of the Air Jordan sneaker. Yeah. Air. There's a Tetris movie opening today on Apple TV Plus starring Taron Egerton. There's a Blackberry movie coming out soon. There's also another one I'm forgetting. There's another, oh, Flamin' Hot, which is about the creation of the Flamin' Hot Cheeto.

So we are in our brand era as movie consumers. Well, firstly, I think we'll continue to talk about this idea and why this has become the new IP over the course of the next few episodes. Yeah, especially. I'm circling the air episode. I mean, we already knew that that was going to be a big one for me, but that's going to be movie therapy, the first episode. I'm going to have a real... Movie therapy? Yeah, I have a lot of conflicting feelings about... I'll just say it. A movie I liked a lot. I can't wait. So shall I play therapist?

I guess so. But then inevitably you're going to feel worse about all of this than I am. And then we'll just be conflicted together. It's weird. It's weird how movies are just marketing now. And they like always have been. But now you really feel it. And I have been trained to be suspicious of this sort of thing.

And it's strange. Agreed. That's all. I think that that is the thing is that we are, we still carry some latent kind of selling out. We're constantly being pitched to product placement, chin scratching. I do think that that's generational. A little bit of a like, we're stuck in Gen X. Bobby loves brands.

You know, Bobby, our number one, our chief marketer, Bobby Wagner. Bobby, let me ask you about this. Actually, I'm really curious about your point of view on this sort of thing. Because on the one hand, I think you have like a very clear eyed sense of personal politics and how the world should work. On the other hand, I think because of growing up with the internet and growing up with like marketing in the way that it is like an onslaught, like a torrent coming at you since the day you were born, you're also, i feel like maybe just more accepting of the

banality and evil of the world and so you don't bump on these things like necessarily in the same way or like they don't push you off of something the way that amanda and i are almost like braced as we watch a movie about an air jordan or tetris am i wrong about that like how do you view this sort of stuff no i think i bump on it too i i think i just find it weird how direct it is like the this movie is adapted from a wikipedia page feeling to some of these things which is not necessarily true of those two specific movies that you just named but i find it weird sometimes like the drop the docudrama trend and feeling of something that is, like, ever-present in my life. I don't really know if that's, like, consistent with the rest of how my generation feels. But I think, for me personally, the movie has to really, like, clear a higher bar because it is associated with this brand, honestly.

When it's, like, product-oriented, not just, not just a true story, but something that is oriented around something that is sold. Yes. Yeah. But I sort of felt that way about social network, too, which is like, that is just a true story,

but because that is so closely linked to something in my life, I was ready to be like, this is not good. And then when it did exceed those expectations, I found that it became the sort of exception to the rule with those kinds of stories. Well, it's a very notable point

because obviously the social network, which is a masterful movie in many ways, has a point. It has a point of view on the rise of that product and the people who built it and what it did to us and what it did to the people who were involved. And it's a big allegory. Right. Dungeons and Dragons,

Honor Among Thieves, which is a movie that does not aspire to the same thing, doesn't really have a point. It doesn't really even have a point of view other than this is a really goofy world. Let's try to have fun. Not all movies need to have a point. This came up during the Cocaine Bear episode where I was like, is there any there there? And feedback that I got about that was like, shut up, enjoy the movie. I think sometimes it's okay to shut up and enjoy the movie, but I think taking it- The problem with Cocaine Bear is that we did not enjoy the movie. You're absolutely right. The question of is there a there there with all of these other movies is fascinating. Blackberry, I've seen some of these movies, not all of them that we're talking about here. Blackberry is the only one that I really felt like had a very strong point of view from conception to execution about why

it needed to be told. Whereas these other films felt like they started as discussion of product or discussion of kind of the valorization of people who made product. And I'm with you. I'm naturally more suspicious of that. And yet, you know, Greta Gerwig is making one of these movies. Ben and Matt made one of these movies. Like a lot of people who we really admire. And what it feels like to me is them trying to keep up with the Joneses of Hollywood without putting on a latex suit, you know, without putting on superhero gear or just making a horror movie or, you know, trying to make something that feels authentically interesting, transgressive, personal. Right.

But knowing that you need something recognizable to hold on to. that exercise that, you know, we've seen air, we have not seen Barbie, so we don't, we can only guess to Greta Gerwig's aspirations, but this, this exercise of, okay, I'm gonna try to participate in the, in, you know, Hollywood's like brand, whatever, but do my, you know, do my own thing with it and not just be a corporate brand exercise. There's like some self-awareness or there's some acknowledgement baked into that that makes me more skeptical than something that's just like, hey, you guys like Dungeons and Dragons? We just like, we made a movie and you want to come see it and you can have a fun time

or you cannot. And I'm just like, well, it is what it is. If you like the one thing, you like the other. You want to have a good time. Great. If i'm just like well it is what it is if you like the one thing you like the other you want to have a good time great if you don't no skin off my back like you know my my ethics are not compromised by the dungeon the dragon it's a very it's a very very good point it's really the you should know better out like you know corollary there's like you made little women and ladybird you know you should know better like barbie might be fantastic it might be like a phenomenally thoughtful uh exercise in looking at femininity and gender roles and product placement and all of these things it's in almost in all likelihood it is deeply aware and probably commenting on everything that we're saying and yet generationally there's something interesting

about how tight i am as i enter one of these movies and how i almost and this is a this is might be a problem with me but how quick to be reactionary i am in a way that i'm not with dungeons and dragons to your point with dungeons and dragons i'm like were the jokes good that's kind of enough if and if the jokes were better in cocaine bear that also would have been enough with barbie that doesn't the jokes enough. And if the jokes were better in Cocaine Bear that also would have been enough. With Barbie the doesn't the jokes should be good and the jokes were good in the

trailer I thought. But there's more weight on it because there's the expectation of it meaning more. Right. In part because of the filmmakers but also in

part because of like what Barbie represents largely. I think like nobody knows what Dungeons and Dragons is unless you've played it. There's no mythology to

speak to. Barbie doesn't necessarily have a mythology but it has a mythos do you think this is a thing where like we're out to lunch with the super you know versus the super fans and everyone who loves Dungeons and Dragons is gonna see this and like be outraged just like they were about like quantumania if they are I don't know who they are I don't have a single person in my life who's played Dungeons and Dragons it doesn't mean it's not wildly popular it is the tabletop game of two generations

like it is a huge thing so it's and this isn't the first Dungeons and Dragons movie there's been there was a 2000 movie starring Jeremy Irons

and Thora Birch you never responded to that text message what did you text me? I just sent you a screenshot of the Wikipedia plot summary of the original did you send that to me?

yeah and I texted you because I have jury duty this week I of the original. Did you send that to me? Yeah. Oh, I didn't see it. And I texted you because I have jury duty this week. I have not yet been called to report. What's up, LA County? Careful. So, I know. I'm stopping talking now.

I know. But there was concern that I would not be able to podcast today. And if so, you were just going to solo podcast about Dense of the Trackets. And I was like, you just need to read the plot summary. I thought that was a plot summary from the game but that was actually from the original film the original film yeah I saw the

original film many years ago is quite quite bad but there have also been animated versions have been like other unlike like licensed versions made in Europe like this is a whole world that we're not as familiar with and so maybe

we're not as precious about it but also to me it is has a lot more to do with who's making the movies and when someone with who's making the movies and when someone really gifted is making the movies, it matters more. Even with like,

Peter Berg making Battleship. There are quite a few Peter Berg movies I like a lot. In that moment, it felt like everyone was doing a bit. Yeah. You know? Yes.

And the same way that when Michael Bay did Transformers, nobody was like, what will this mean for Michael Bay's integrity? It was like, fucking Michael Bay. Yeah. You know, he's got nothing to way that when Michael Bay did Transformers, nobody was like, what will this mean for Michael Bay's integrity? It was like, fucking Michael Bay. Yeah. You know, he's got nothing to lose.

Make this a major franchise. But we're now in the phase where if you're a really legitimate star and you want to get a movie made, you need a product. Well, it's not high tone exactly and that there was this response from critics of just being like this is beneath scorsese like why are you doing this genre thing like you should only like it's good but which and seems a little unfair in retrospect so maybe we're being unfair on the other hand you know

I don't know whether I will ever be able to accept a movie about marketing I think that that's a we should pause there because we'll pick it back up with the air conversation we sure will

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you I really liked air I had some thoughts liked it so much and this has been an existential like crisis for me of like and I thought about this while watching Dungeons and Dragons I'm pretty much in the same boat as you I really liked air I liked it so much yeah and when this has been an existential like crisis for me of like and I thought about this while watching Dungeons and Dragons because you know basically if if what if the premise of the movie appeals to you you'll have a great time and I was thinking about like I wish that they made more

movies that were like in the Amanda wheelhouse where just like the description appeals to me and then I can go have a great time. And pretty much that's what air is. So maybe I just need to like get on board. You know, I need to start advocating for the things that are for me and stop sharing my doubts. I mean, I feel like the Democratic Party right now, you know, like I'm like I'm I know I like the DNC. That's why I'm just going to keep losing elections and failing this country. But again, that's why I said the air podcast will be, will be rich. I like the idea of us as this bastion of integrity.

You know, I'll just make a list on pods. Just shameful shit on our part. You would, is there any other board game you'd want to see as a movie? Monopoly. Like, but like a good, like as a movie? Monopoly. But like a good like CR is the Monopoly man? No.

I want someone to I would like a version of Monopoly which is like what I imagine Barbie will be but better which like make the full on

You want world building. Capitalism. Yeah. You want Francis Ford Coppola's Monopoly. Make the social network monopoly. Charlie Kaufman's monopoly. Yeah.

Why not? Aaron Sorkin's monopoly. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Let's go. Give me, pitch it out to me. Is it about, is it Robert Moses' monopoly?

Is it the construction of an American city in the face of gentrification, the incursion of capitalism? Yeah. My question is, why do you even need monopoly then? Someone can get famous, yes. In the face of gentrification, the incursion of capitalism. Yeah. My question is, why do you even need Monopoly then? Someone can get famous, Bobby.

Right, we gotta get the movie signed off on. Damn, that's bleak. But it would be good. Also, Monopoly is a good name for a movie, you know? Everyone's buying tickets. Are you a big board game person?

Not really. Did we play, we played Trivial Pursuit, of course. You've beaten me soundly on Trivial Pursuit. No one has ever been angrier than you losing a Trivial Pursuit. And you lost for like three years running. It's incredible. I did.

I'm not ashamed to say it. I played Trivial Pursuit. I have no patience for Scrabble. I like Monopoly. I played Clue recently with a friend and her family like an 8 year old and a 6 year old my godson Henry

shout out Henry I'm sure he's listening sometimes his dad actually plays him the one other time I had mentioned him his dad played the shout out

and he was really excited so that's what instead of spiritual like education for Henry I'm gonna give him this shout out do you think Henry

has no angst whatsoever about a Flamin' Hot Cheetos movie? I think that Henry would really like a Flamin' Hot Cheetos movie. I would love some Flamin' Hot Cheetos right now. Yeah, they're good. I like them. That's the problem with all these movies. I'm like, well, you know, I'm a fan of Air Jordans. In fact, I own many of them. So what am I really fighting against? Right. Yeah. Any other board games? Candyland. Didn't board games? Candyland? Didn't they make a Candyland movie? I don't believe so.

I felt like there was one in development for like ever with the Peppermint Patty. What's her name? Princess Peppermint? I really liked playing Candyland as a kid. I did too. I don't remember any of the characters though. I'm not big on that mythology. That was Tolkien.

Did you write Candyland? Do you? You don't play board games. No, just no soul to Tolkien joke. You're just killing me. Listen, I let you talk about Tolkien for like... 90 seconds. Thank you so much.

But like on every podcast, you're like, and then there was a Hobbit movie and Chris and I went to see it and they ate a lot. On every podcast that happens. And they sang a song. Can you sing a Hobbit song for us? I don't know any Hobbit songs. I don't like the Hobbit films. The little known fact, Ridley Scott's Napoleon is based on Risk.

Okay. I think it's actually Napoleon colon Risk the game. You did not engage with my Elba content at all. It's like basically. I just wanted to have my facts straight. I'm not there yet. I was recommended a very long Napoleon podcast that I'll be listening to on my journey. Someone let me know that Napoleon died in an island off the UK. So Wikipedia was right.

Helena. Yeah, he was exiled in Elba and then died in Helena. But Elba, according to the Googling. Wait, Napoleon died? Have you ever been to Napoleon's tomb? Speaking of. No. Can we do this research?

It's wild. French people are wild and Napoleon's crazy. Did you snort to Napoleon's tomb? Speaking of... No. Can we do this? It is wild. French people are wild and Napoleon's crazy. Did you snort cocaine before this pod? You're the one who's going to listen to a podcast. You've never been... Napoleon's tomb is like the weirdest thing. It's gigantic. Is it in Glendale?

What are you talking about? How did I get there? It's in Paris. But it's like... It is... I mean, it is the living manifestation of Napoleon complex. It is like bigger. Oh, it's gigantic. It's like bigger than the Arc de Triomphe.

And it's like, I mean, it's not literally, but it's like not that much smaller. Where was the John Wick 4 scene centered around Napoleon's tomb? That would have been sick because as I recall, and I was like so weirded out when I was like 18, and it's like sunk below ground and then there's like kind of a rotunda that you walk around that's like the viewing. I don't know. Weird, weird, weird guy. Did you play Mousetrap as a kid? No, it's Mousetrap. You never played Mousetrap. No, I know about the Mouset mouse trap the long-running agatha christie play no that's not what i'm referring to it's like um it's almost like a rube goldberg machine but a game where you like drop a ball into a series of interconnected tubes and wires and things that all fit together in an effort to capture a mouse no nothing but then how do you

play it it's i don't have time to explain well you brought it up sorry for like asking and engaging with you so you want to make a mousetrap like horror movie i do yeah that's pretty good thank you okay um any other board games jenga is that a board game not really i mean more of a block game. Yeah. I played some Jenga that had like a big mid 2000s like bar moment. You know, there would be like a Jenga set

in some really dirty Brooklyn bar. You know what makes people crazy? What game? Apples to Apples. You played that? Never played that. I've heard about it.

When, um, when the ringer permanently closes and we're forced to pod for money live every day, uh, we're forced to pod for money live every day, we're going to have many, many Twitch streams of me and you playing apples to apples and screaming at each other.

Is it like Heads Up or whatever? Not dissimilar. Heads Up is really fun. We played that a lot with my sister-in-law when she was in town, and I was like, we should get in the mix on that. Wags, what's your favorite board game? Probably Clue. I like Clue. It's really good.

It was really good to play with young kids. Like lots of like logic and memory. The reading comprehension of my teammate was like not what we wanted it to be. So that was an issue when she would just yell out the clues. But that's- Have you guys played um ticket to ride no

what's that that's probably my go-to now that i play but in terms of the classic ones clue would be my favorite tickets to ride is like uh you have to build railroads and connect cities and there's a lot of separate rules it's fun it's a fun one the listeners will know they know scattagories does that count that's a board game. Yeah, I had a big Scattergories face. Okay. I don't know. Pictionary? I mean,

a classic film scene, Baby Fish Mouth. That would be great for the Twitch stream because you guys playing Pictionary. Well, they already did. I mean, that was a TV show.

That was an entertaining TV show, Pictionary. Not the new one, the one in the 80s when we were growing up. You a good drawer? You feel confident? A good drawer?

Artist? An artist can do many things, John, as we learn every day on the internet and on this podcast. No, can you draw well? Let me say, first of all, I love when you ask a question like this. I feel alive right now. Secondly, I am definitively not good at drawing. Okay. But if I practiced, I think I could do.

And that's just something I haven't spent time with. But I think about this being a parent. So there's a character in Pride and Prejudice who is like. I haven't read that. Well. I've seen the film. Yeah. Given, well, she's played by't read that. Well, that's not... Yeah, given... Well, she's played by... In the 2005 version,

she's played by Judi Dench. Wow, great. So, but she's like... She's the rich aunt who is of someone, not of Elizabeth Bentley, who is very stuck up. And a thing that she says

all the time is that she's like, I'm a great lover of music. If I had ever learned, I would have been a great proficient. And she's just always like, I love art. And if I had ever done anything with art, I would have been the best at it. And that's you right now. That's how I feel about most anything I could have tried.

Could I have been LeBron? Great. Maybe not, maybe not, but maybe. Okay. If I really put my heart into it. I used to get this a lot in high school. That you could have been LeBron? No, definitely not that. But in high school, I was like, I don't really care. Okay. Like, I'm just really not going to try that hard. My teachers would be like, you should try. Yeah. I'd be like, can you explain to me why that would be helpful? And they couldn't really convince me to try harder. And now your entire adulthood has been haunted by your lack of effort and you just drive yourself insane every day. That's absolutely true. I know. I mean, that is the exact psychological reading. I tried in

high school and now I'm having a great time having hobbies outside. Are you? Are you? Sure. I'm not so sure about that. I know you pretty well. I think that we're both tortured in our own specific way, but I felt like it was a better use of my time

to try to get good at Trivial Pursuit and still lose to you. Yeah, and still lose to me. It's a very interesting thing. I don't really know how to end this pod. Can you bring us

full circle to Honor Among Thieves? We didn't talk at all about the like the goblins and all of the the evil people you got any thoughts about the red wizard well i thought that the um this is a good place to end because the the only thing that really kind of has to work for the movie to have stakes is for you to believe that daisy head who plays sophina a red wizard is scary and could threaten everyone's life. And frankly, she was great.

She was very good. And the movie, again, probably doesn't work without her and Michelle Rodriguez holding the story together. Everyone is good at the jokes, but those two characters play it pretty straight. I can't wait to tell you about the cameo now that we get off mic. And frankly, it is worth the price of admission. That's how strongly I get off mic. Okay. And frankly, it is worth the price of admission. Okay. That's how strongly I feel about it.

Okay. Well, this is that fascinating time in the movie calendar where we're like, we're not quite in summer movie season. We're all kind of like holding our breath. You and I are just yelling at each other about board games for like 20 minutes. We should have just played a board game. It really- Like, I recorded it.

It really feels like where we're headed long-term here. I know. Honestly, I'm like, we're running out of movie draft years. I'm getting really cynical about movies. This kind of feels like where we're headed here. Okay. Well, lack of cynicism. Have you seen 1001 yet?

No, not yet. Okay. Because I missed it at Sundance. It's very good. You know, I thought of my art year friend, Pete LaFishel, who, who's like done a lot of work about how New York has changed over the years and like gentrification and the way that the city looks and feels and who lives there has just radically changed over like a 30, 50 year period. Speaking of Robert Moses and Monopoly and the changing of a city. And this movie is like such a fascinating example of telling a small story inside of a big world. So highly recommend

people check that movie out and listen to my conversation right now with A.B. Rockwell. Delighted to be joined by A.B. Rockwell with her feature film debut, 1001. Thanks for doing the show today. Thank you for having me. So you've been making short films and commercial work for a few years now. So why is 1001 your debut feature? I think there's a number of things that I wanted to say with this movie.

I think it is my first film. And this is like my farewell to my coming of age era in New York City. It was a very personal movie to me in that way. And kind of closing one chapter and opening a new one in this way just felt like the right thing to do. I think it was also a story

that I felt like had a sense of urgency to it. I think in the ways that uh the movie addresses a few things I think seeing firsthand the impacts of gentrification uh on black communities it felt like of New York City it felt like we were being erased all together uh and pushed out and I think that I wanted to acknowledge that it and especially a neighborhood like Harlem that means so much not only for for black identity and, but for American history in general. I think to see it washed away is such a devastating loss. And I think the personal things that are at stake when we think about that,

I think through Inez and Terry's story, you see the impact of what this does to very vulnerable groups. I think to see people that have fought for generations for a sense of home, a sense of stability, to rebuild their families in neighborhoods like Harlem. And just to see this push them right off their anchors again, I think it's just something that I really wanted people to have a way into. I think lastly, I wanted to just, being that this is a person, a personal story and a coming of age story, just speak on behalf of what it's like for inner city Black women to come of age in New York City. And I think that the movie, it shines a light on a lot of the things that we go through through Inez's journey. I think the movie presents the question of who really fights for black women because you see in the movie how much she shows up for everybody else but it's never fully quite enough and so I think that I wanted to to express that and showcase the

way that uh black women want to feel loved and not just needed um and really to celebrate a group of women that nurtured me I think just giving. I think just knowing that they feel so misunderstood in society and invisible, I really wanted to use that as a way to celebrate this group of women that have nurtured me and made me who I am. Was there a dawning moment for you where you realized you wanted to tell this story and a story like this, or was it just an accumulation of your own experience over time? I think it was an accumulation of experiences. I think it was, it was the right timing. I had gone through enough as a person, uh, in New York city. And then I just, as a human being in general, I think, so I think it all kind

of came together. I do think that just in the ways that it felt urgent in the ways that I felt betrayed by New York city. Uh, I think just the way, like I was living in Brooklyn at the time. And I remember that was when it really clicked for me that this isn think just the way, like I was living in Brooklyn at the time, and I remember that was when it really clicked for me, that this isn't just the natural progression of an ever changing city. I was like, oh, why does it feel like our communities are being targeted altogether? I felt like I was a target within my community. I felt like, okay, my days are numbered. Just being able to live in the neighborhood that I was in. But really any black neighborhood in New York City, I was like, it's not just happening in Brooklyn. It's not just happening in isolated places. So I think that gave it a sense of urgency because I'm like,

how does it feel to know that this place that I love so deeply and it's such a huge part of me that this place never really loved me? When you say the city betrayed you, I'm fascinated by what you mean by that. Like what, how did it manifest in that way? I mean, exactly what I'm saying, which is to say that, you know, to love New York and for it to be such a part of who I am, not only as a, as a person, but as a, as an artist, um, how should I feel about the fact that it doesn't want me here and the ways that it's systemically showcasing that. And I think that the more that I dove into the making of this movie and doing research into what the Black community's relationship is with New York City altogether, that's always been a part of our

history. Every major wave of progress within New York City, even just within Manhattan Island alone, has come at our expense. When it was a small town that was just below Wall Street and they pushed past those walls, we were displaced. When they decided that they had this grand vision of Central Park to bring some greenery to Manhattan Island, we were displaced. When you see people dancing on top of rubble in the opening of West Side Story, that was a black and brown community that was displaced. And a lot of those people moved into harlem which was already a largely ignored demographic within the city and stayed like that for generation and what you're seeing in the movie is how in the 90s that that community is just now getting off its feet getting on its feet again um and it's just starting to prosper

again um and and you see the beauty of that and what that means for these characters. And what happens as New York, quote unquote, gets better, it is again at their expense. And you see all the ways in which it threatens everything that they've built, including just reuniting and building that sense of bondage that they all, that sense of family that they're all, they all been fighting for and longing for in their lives it's a really complex time period that you're capturing in the film because it is it is a period piece but it's a recent period piece and so you know when i was watching the film when i heard the wu-tang say night's commercial i was like all right i'm in i'm in good hands i know someone who knows this moment in time but how do you actually make that era seem real like a time really before cell phones a time where there is like the city is lacking in a kind of technology and like a kind of polish i guess for lack of a better word that it took in the 2000s so how did you actually build it out yeah i mean i think i definitely pulled from lived experiences and observations uh but also did like a wealth of research

just to really understand what was happening during this time. If I'm anchoring the movie around the years that largely reflect my coming of age years, there was what I experienced firsthand, but what was happening politically? What was happening socioeconomically? I needed to understand it.

And New York was vanishing. I mean, there's books that are written about this topic. It isn't just me talking about it. And it went from being this mom and pop city to this very commercialized, polished, cleaner, more palatable city. I think the change of 42nd Street is probably the most notorious representations of that. It became like Disneyland, is what people call it. And so I think that just paying attention to what made New York familiar in this iconic city that you've seen over the course of the cinema history, up until this point, a lot of that architecture that the grid is built out on that was there,

but prior to this turn of the century that you see in the movie, that is familiar, right? And that's a lot of where we turned our lenses. And obviously with the help of production design, okay, this awning may not be new, but let's flip it. You know, like, you know, let's get the cars back in. Let's get the wardrobe back in. So I think we build a lot on what was like naturally left in terms of recreating New York and then pointing the camera elsewhere

when it was time to see the evolution. I think a lot of the color palette, you see that old New York and then pointing the camera elsewhere when it was time to see the evolution. I think a lot of the color palette, you see that old New York had a very vibrant energy. I think you also feel the people. I mean, and it's beyond what you see. It's also what you hear. Like, this is what New York sounds like. This is what New York, the pulse of New York felt like. And even though it was rougher on the surface, it was a city that was largely accessible to everyone. But as it's drained of that personality and drained of this place that is accessible to people and not just the privileged, you see the colors change. You see the city gets a lot more gray, a lot more steel, a lot more glass, and a lot less specific. You know, you don't see, you don't see things that were staples in Harlem, like Lenox Lounge. I mean, obviously Apollo is still standing, but it's kind of like on an island. And a lot of those things are being replaced for like Wells Fargo, Old Navy, Whole Foods, you know, and it's like things that you can get anywhere else. So for a city like New York,

that stood so tall as a unique place and it had unique neighborhoods like Harlem, it's like, I don't even know why people can come here now because what are you getting that you can't get in your own towns or get anywhere else? And that's a lot of what we visually tried to showcase and how we represented it. Did you have all of this conceived before you started out on the film? Because it's an independent movie, you pull together these partners, you had to raise funds for it. Did you have all of this conceived before you started out on the film? Because it's an independent movie. You pulled together these partners. You had to raise funds for it. How are you selling a movie like this? Are you selling it in the way that we're talking about it now? Is there something else you're saying to compel people to give you money for it? No, absolutely.

I talked about all these same things very passionately. I think in every conversation that I had with my creative partners, including Focus and the first conversations we had about the movie, every time I told people who were going to jump on board, the people that became the creative team and heads of departments for the production, I had the same conversation and the same vision. And really, I was just looking for the right people to give me that platform and to work with me to build that vision out, bring it to life. Tell me about Tayana Taylor, because obviously she has emerged so amazingly out of the movie. And obviously she's been famous for a long time, but she also feels like a discovery at the same time. Why is she the person who's playing Inez? Yeah, and it's so exciting to kind of have that duality, have somebody who is both the

perfect person, but also like a discovery. So many people know her name now that, and will know her name as the movie gets out into the world. I think for me, what made Tiana stand out is that she gave me the three main things that I was looking for. So I think first off, I was looking for just the talent and depth and pedigree of an actress who could really handle what was a complicated character, had a lot of shades, a lot of colors. And it was just a very challenging role. And I think that she had that. But she also had a level of truth to and honesty and empathy, you could tell that she knew who this woman was, or she might have been a version of this woman at some point in her life.

And so I could tell that she would be with Inez versus looking down at Inez. It wouldn't come through performatively how she portrayed this woman. And I think the last thing I think she gave to me was, I feel like I was aiming to write a character that was one of one and I wanted an actress that was going to give me that feeling of her being one of one and add that so because I'm like this is a movie that I'm trying to celebrate the women in my life who I feel like are taken for granted and feeling unseen and I want to instill a sense of dignity in them I want to celebrate them and I want to feel their force. And I felt that the force of them in Tiana. And I think just seeing such a volume of women that we did, myself and my casting director, A.B. Kaufman, I think by the time we actually got to Tiana's tape, she just stood out like a gem

with all these qualities. How many people did you see for the part? I don't know the exact number, but it was several hundreds. And I think Avey made it very clear to me. She was like, how many more women do you need to see? She did not get it. So that's, you hear this all the time, right? Filmmaker always like, I saw a hundred people or I saw 500 people for this part. But like, what does that actually mean? Are you looking at two minutes, five minutes? Who has the time to look at hundreds of tapes? I mean, we, I mean, you know, well well the good thing is that because we were going into production like the time it was it was an absorbent amount of time spent on it but that that was the time to prioritize prioritize that

and and make the time if i didn't have it uh but yeah we we definitely saw hundreds and hundreds of women it was a lot it was it was definitely probably more than five or 600. But I think what makes it helpful is that in a way that, you know, they're reading only a couple of scenes. It's not like I'm going through the whole movie with all of them or that I'm seeing them personally. So I think it made it easier for me to know who was right or who was interesting and just kind of pour through those tapes until I got what I was looking for.

But like I said, you know, I think A.B. Kaufman, it was a lie. It was a lie. And it's like, nobody. But at the same time, when we did finally see Tiana, she caught me. I had just finished watching the tape

and within a few minutes, I'm hearing from her, like, did you see this one tape? Did you see Tiana Taylor? Because by that point, you could tell who stands out just based on what we were looking for for the role. So interesting. I was working at a magazine in 2008 or 2009, and she came in when she was pushing her first single. And even though it didn't totally pop the way that I think they wanted it to, you could just tell she had something really incredible. So I mean, it was worth it. She's so great in your film. You made a choice, a really interesting stylistic choice that is almost like chapter breaks or interstitials where you're showing the city

over time. And I thought that that was really effective. And a lot of times you see that in a movie and it feels like the director doesn't know how to jump from scene to scene, but it seemed very purposeful in your film. I was wondering if you could talk about that. Yeah, I think in me wanting to tell a story about the coming of age period that I had in New York, I was like, it was impossible to talk about it without addressing this vast period of time, because the movie goes over an 11 year period. But I think in deciding what were those pivotal moments in time to jump through, I think part of it came through Mila's experience and what I remember just physically seeing and experiencing and feeling too, just feeling the energy of New York changing. But I think also going back through it, there was what I felt as a kid. And

then there was also just me going back through the research of what exactly was happening that I would not have been paying attention to. And obviously, 94 is when Giuliani comes into office and he begins this massive change. He had this big vision of the ways he wanted to change New York City. And so the movie really bookends his time in office starting in 94, ending in 2001. And then that's when he passed the baton to Bloomberg, who as he completed his time in office would carry on the vision that he started with New York. And so we see the first term that he has. And that worked very beautifully alongside the shift of my characters, because just based on the arc that Terry and Inez take in the story. And a lot of it's interesting, like just what Terry was going through at the same time in his life. It coincided really well with what was happening historically and what I wanted to touch on.

And the way these two leaders of the city really impacted the lives of its citizens in a profound way. And so it made it easy to anchor it the way it balanced so well. Because it's like I wouldn't have needed to show much beyond that. Because I think this being a coming of age movie for both these characters in many ways. But obviously, Terry's is the most explicit. You're really seeing him go from a boy to a man. I didn't really need to tell the story much further. Like I didn't need to go beyond him being 18, 19 or anything like that. You know, it was really relevant to what is this time, how pivotal it was to beginning to create the new New York that we have today and also the beginning of this young man's life. So so I think that made it

easier for me to just shape the movie and based on what they were happening and also obviously and inez abducting him uh how how would they have been able to get away with it and what it would have created obstacles as he matures and and becomes his own man uh entering society and so i think all three things you know just like the coming of age part of it, the abduction part of it and building a family that's hiding in plain sight. And also what was really happening in New York and how that would have impacted Terry, myself and kids just like us that were growing up in this period. There weren't a ton of filmmakers and certainly not a ton of black filmmakers making movies in New York in the 90s. Like, did you go back and look, obviously Spike was making films, but I mean,

did you look at movies from that time to kind of recapture some of that? Yeah. I, I, I don't know if I would say I was trying to recapture it, uh, maybe to a certain degree. I think it was, it was very helpful just in me and the research that I had to do, um, to continue building on what I just observed between the old New York and how it looked, just the backdrop of it, the architecture, the look, the feeling of it versus what it is now. And how was it photographed during that time? And it's so fascinating when you're seeing even just representations of Harlem. I think there was a bunch of films, New Jack City, Juice, and several others, Sugar Hill. I think there was a bunch of films, New Jack City, Juice, and several others, you know, Sugar Hill. Like, I think there

was a bunch of actually movies that were shot in New York or about New York, and especially in Harlem. I think there was like a wave of it. And so those were all really great reference points. And just looking at how the city was captured, especially just as a movie that was shot on location, I think it was super helpful and it just added to the clarity of my vision. But ultimately, I think that it didn't, it didn't actually like, you won't see much of the shooting style. I think that the movie,

those movies were shot more traditionally and they also didn't have COVID to deal with, which made it even that much more of a challenging experience making this movie. I mean, it was impossible. I mean, the limitations making this movie. I mean, it was it was impossible. I mean, the limitations we had and just permits and just how hard it was just being in production in New York when we were first coming out of lockdown and movies were starting up again. It was it was really, really, really different just trying to be in production in the streets

of New York because I've shot in New York before. So the movie definitely has this own language, but I think it's better for it. That gives it its own identity within this canon of New York stories. Yeah, I applaud you for that. When I watched it at a Sundance, I was like, this must have been really, really hard to make given the time period and making a New York movie. And it's pretty incredible. Are you going to continue to make movies in New York? What is your thinking about the kinds of stories you want to tell? I mean, I'm sure I will revisit New York stories at some point in time. I don't think it's something that I want to do urgently. I don't think that, if anything, I feel like I need a New York break. So I think that as a storyteller and as a human

being, there's so much more that I want to explore, period. I feel like this is the beginning of a new chapter for me as a feature length filmmaker. And so I'm happy that I got to honor everything that made me who I am and telling this very personal story about my time in New York. But there's so much more. I think there's such a wide world of genres and characters and different places. I think just where my imagination takes me. And so I'm really excited to dive into other stories and other worlds and just continue just expanding as an artist and as a filmmaker. I'll get back to New York eventually. I think there probably are other things to say about it, but you know,

it'll be here. I'm always interested with young filmmakers, especially where they stand on the kind of theatrical versus streaming question. And obviously your film is going to be released theatrically. And on the other hand, like what you often hear is sometimes stories about underrepresented communities. Like there's not many places to even go to the movie sometimes like what you often hear sometimes stories about underrepresented communities like there's not many places to even go to the movie sometimes like they're

like accessibility is a huge issue you hear about that too like what is your sensibility about how to see movies and the theatrical versus streaming debate that's been happening last five six years i think my preference is definitely still with theaters and with the theatrical experience. I think I made this movie for the theatrical experience. I think it is an immersive movie in the way that it drops you back into this period of time and drops you into this world and the life of the people that you see on screen. And so I really made it for that. But I think even just, you know, we premiered the movie last night in New York City, in Harlem, and I was reminded of what makes going to the movie so special. And it is that community experience. You know, I've been making this movie like in my own

little cave, in my own little bubble with my collaborators. And I know what my intentions were, but I was seeing it through a different lens. Obviously, I was seeing it in a different way, and we all were. And so I think it's not really until you're in the room with other people that you really get to see how audiences react uh to what you've made but I think it's a community experience in that way and that's the beauty of experiencing movies like that and I think to go from the isolated experience of making it to to the isolation of not being able to share that with people where you actually put it out into the world because they're watching it on their TVs

or, God forbid, their iPhones or something crazy like that. It's just not the same thing. I think that regardless of me having the opportunity to experience that as a filmmaker, I think the world needs that. We need that togetherness, that community experience

of going to a movie and connecting. I think there was just the way that people were reacting in the theater they were laughing crying getting angry commenting you know I think all of that is is a part of what makes the movies going to the movie so magical and and you can be in it in the dark in the theater uh and center but at the same time I'm not naive either i know that the world is changing and i'm happy that with streaming there's this created it's created such a level of access you know to get stories out and i'm like even though i'm just looking at the amount of people working like because there's this need for content uh from all these distributors and all these platforms it's just everybody has an opportunity to to get their stories out now in a ways that there was a lot more gatekeeping when it was just in the theaters.

And so I think that, that, that is the future, but I just hope that the future that we're, that we are working towards that theaters remain a part of that. And that community experience remain, cause I'm like, you know,

humans, I just don't want us to continue to isolate and alienate and just be our phones kids don't even play outside anymore so it's like what do we what do we have and i'm not dating you virtually like we're going to the movie theater and we're going to center after like you know it's like certain things you just have to experience in the theater and that's what's that's the magic of movies so i i hope that it doesn't go away they can coincide i I love that answer. Speaking of, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen?

Have you seen anything good lately? You know, I'll say Swarm. I've been watching. It's been such a chaotic period. Just promoting and gearing up for the release of the movie. But I've been able to watch it passively while I'm getting dressed, brushing my teeth and stuff like that. What have you liked about it?

What I liked about it, I mean, I think that, I thought it was beautifully done. I think the crafts and shit, I really enjoyed. The performance was really good. A lot of surprise performances as well. I think just in terms of

who we're getting to see on camera, I had to be like, wait, is that so-and-so? I think it has a wonderful arc to it. So I think that was really great. But also, it is confrontational as well. And the commentary that it has about the very timely issues related to the obsession, you know, the fandom that comes with our favorite musicians and artists uh you know

just stars period uh yeah i think you know people in their fan base it there does need to be a little bit of a conversation about it you know just people just being too extremist and how they show love and show up for their favorite artists it's little, it can be a little crazy. So I think that there's a very wonderful commentary in it, especially when you see things like that happen to an extreme.

So I enjoyed watching. I thought it was great and I love the cast. Dominique did an amazing job as the lead. I'm so excited for everything that she is doing and I'm sure we'll continue to do so.

Avey, I like talking to you. Congrats on 1001. It's really great. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Sean. Hey, thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode.

It's his birthday today. Bobby! Wish Bobby Wagner a happy birthday. Happy birthday! If you see him singing karaoke tonight, applaud. Hug him. He loves to be him singing karaoke tonight, applaud.

Hug him. He loves to be hugged by strangers, definitely. Or just pretend that you didn't see me if you do see me singing karaoke. Give me that courtesy.

Buy him a bag of Flamin' Hot Cheetos and celebrate with him. And a Negroni. Yeah. Next week on The Big Picture, huge, huge week on the show. One of the biggest weeks

of the year. First up, Super Mario Bros. movie. Amanda not invited to the year. First up, Super Mario Brothers movie. Amanda not invited to the podcast. Ben Lindberg, Charles Holmes will be here with us. They'll probably, we'll pick up the conversation

because I think our video game movie future is upon us. And so we'll discuss that as well. And then air. Air. And you're going to talk, you're going to complain about air. No, I'm not.

I'm not. I am, I'm not. I'm not. I am. I had a great time and I have, I'm so conflicted about what I want from the movies and from my movie stars

and what I want to advocate for in this world. And also I loved it. It's a good thing you're not a parent you know you don't have to worry about the future great yeah uh bobby happy birthday thank you buddy