The Big Picture - 'Extraction' and the 10 Best Movies Released During Quarantine

Episode Date: May 8, 2020

It's been nearly two months since movie theaters closed and Hollywood was forced to pivot. Sean and Amanda dig into the VOD crates as well as the streaming services to recommend 10 movies to watch from the comfort of your home, including the best that Netflix, HBO, and Shudder have to offer right now (1:45). Then, Sean is joined by stunt performer turned director Sam Hargrave to talk about his rise from fight coordination on MCU movies to helming his explosive action thriller, 'Extraction' (58:17). Host: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Sam Hargrave Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Big Picture on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by World Central Kitchen. Their relief team is working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals in communities that need support. They're now serving tens of thousands of meals daily in some of our biggest cities like New York and LA. They're launching initiatives across America to deliver fresh, hot meals to hospitals and clinics, fighting on the front lines while keeping local restaurants and business as well. You can directly help the heroes in hospitals and clinics who are fighting for us,

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And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the best movies released since quarantine. It's now been 58 days since we began sheltering in place. Imagine that, Amanda. Later in the show, I'm going to have an interview with stunt performer turned stunt coordinator turned badass action director Sam Hargrave,

whose debut as a filmmaker, Extraction, might just be the most watched movie during quarantine. According to Netflix, it's projected to be seen by 90 million people. Sam was actually a great interview and action filmmakers, as always, continue to be the best at explaining how to make movies that appear on this show. And I hope you'll stick around for our chat because we talked about extraction and his work in the MCU and his interesting career as a stunt performer. But first, Amanda, let's talk about how movies are being released since COVID-19 struck about two months ago. We can

demarcate March 11th as the day you and I began working from home. A week after that, California's governor issued a statewide stay-at-home order. And so that's two months without going to the movies. We have been acclimating to a new lifestyle. We talk about it all the time on this show about what the future of moviegoing is, but this is a forced entry into the future. How are you feeling about being a part of the VOD revolution? It's not my favorite. I was just thinking in some ways I have adapted to this new life. Like you were talking about how it's been eight weeks and you knew the exact day that we were working from home. And I'll be honest, I've lost count. And that's just how I'm dealing with it. And your mileage may vary. Do whatever is good for you in order to get through

this time. But I do find humans are somewhat adaptable. And there are some things about this new normal that are very normal to me. But what I expect from a movie has not adapted. And it's been really interesting to redefine what I am watching and figure out what I like watching at home. And the types of movies that have worked on me are, I think I would have liked them anyway, but I'm definitely putting an emphasis on different types of films than I was when we were going to the movie theater once or twice or three or four times a week. That's interesting. I hadn't considered if that's also the case for me. I try to be so omnivorous with my movie consumption. And I have noticed as I go through my overwhelming spreadsheet, a lot of two-star and two-and-a-half

star ratings. Not a lot of four-star ratings, not a lot of four star ratings, not a lot of one star ratings. Everything just kind of seems flat. And so even picking 10 movies for this conversation was kind of challenging. You know, I would say that this isn't, this isn't, none of these movies are likely to be leading the Oscar conversation a few months from now, but there is a kind of a new version of movie consumption that happens where you, you reset your expectations a little bit. So when you say like your, your barometer has changed, how has it changed? I'm watching a lot of documentaries, which I enjoyed watching documentaries before. I just think our emphasis, and maybe this is a

little bit about the emphasis, A, of the movie industry and certainly theaters and how we put this podcast together and how people watch movies. We were focusing on scripted stuff and I love scripted movies. And I just have found documentaries easier to consume at home. I suppose not even because they're linear, though that often does help, But it's just about they're trying to communicate information to you. And they're trying to communicate often personality to you. And I have been drawn to a lot of personality driven movies and media. And I suppose you could psychoanalyze that and say it's because I'm trying to fill my

life with the people who aren't surrounding me in real life all the time. And I guess that's true, but also like I'm kind of an introvert and this is just the content I like anyway. But I do find them just more digestible. I think they are less reliant on a really giant screen and visual aspects and less reliant on having that great theater surround sound, you can watch them both on an iPad and on your big screen TV with equal effect. I don't know. I've been battling a lot for the one big screen TV in my home. It's a real marital negotiation every night of, will I get the big TV or will I get the iPad? And if I get the iPad, which is lovely, what I watch changes. That makes sense. And it really, that explains in part, the rise of Netflix. A huge part of Netflix's early growth in the movie side was through

documentary and Lisa Nishimura and everything that she did. And that part of the company is really historic at this point in the way that they have kind of, I think, in tandem with what Bill did with 30 for 30, just changed the relationship that moviegoers and movie consumers had to docs. I mean, docs are just, they're viewed almost equally now. And that was just not the case culturally 15 years ago. They were, and forget about 35 years ago, when they were thought to be these like immensely boring,

wooden, dull kind of vegetable style content. And now our list is almost evenly split between narrative movies and docs. Now, there are some reasons for that. Part of the reason for that is because a lot of the big ticket movies have been withheld from us. You know, they haven't gone to VOD. So we talked about T world tour last week.

We talked about the way that the industry is changing in some respects. It is. We've gotten some news since then that is probably notable to this, you know, not just the King of Staten Island and Scoob and Artemis Fowl coming to, to, to homes soon in May and June, but also,

uh, defy bloods is coming to Netflix on June 12th, which, you know, it's probably the most significant new Oscar movie of the year. And for some godforsaken reason, June 12th is a pileup. We've been desperate for content on this podcast for weeks and weeks, and now they've decided to drop Artemis Fowl, End of Five Bloods, and The King of Staten Island on the same day. God damn it. It's fine. We'll parcel it out like every other normal person does. You know, it's okay. Other people wait a week to see things and they can wait a week to listen to this podcast.

It'll still be relevant. Netflix better hope that it's relevant for more than a week, by the way, because they're releasing an Oscar movie in June. And I think that's interesting. I'm really excited to see how it goes. Obviously, circumstances both in the world and in the Oscars specifically are so unique right now that I don't think any rules of past years apply. But historically, summer movies tend to be forgotten by Oscar season.

Yeah, we saw last year with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood came out of the gate incredibly strong, was a huge hit, beloved movie, did well at the Oscars in terms of nominations, but did not get the wins that we might've hoped for. What do you think is going to be next? I mean, we saw the high note is going from Focus Features is going straight to VOD at the end of May. That one more than anything actually seemed to kind of signal where some of this conversation is going.

Now, Focus is obviously owned by Universal and Comcast, so they've already indicated that that's part of their future strategy. But that was one where Dakota Johnson and Tracee Ellis Ross are in it. It already kind of looked like a Netflix movie to me. I wonder if that's kind of what middle ground movie watching is going to be where these smaller specialty studios push much more stuff to PVOD. Do you think that? What do you think of that? I think that makes a lot of sense. And in a lot of ways, it's catching up to how a lot of people would prefer to watch these movies. I mean, you and I still really love theaters and hope that all movies go to theaters. I certainly do because I can't keep fighting over the one TV in my house every night. But there are many people who watch a trailer

for a movie featuring adults talking to each other or anything that isn't like a giant franchise and think, okay, I'll see that one. It's out on VOD or it's out on Netflix. I can watch that at home. And in many ways, it seems like that those movies distribution plans are catching up to how the audiences already view them.

I think that's right. The broader idea of VOD is probably worth setting the table for because this isn't really a category of movie that we spend a lot of time on on this show. There is this whole sub-industry of movies that are released directly to Video On Demand, to Apple, to Amazon Prime, to Vudu, to all of these different services where you can rent these movies for $3, $5, $6. And a lot of them feel like they've been discarded by studios. You'll catch a Blumhouse lower tier movie here and there. Some of the smaller studios will put their movies there. A lot of first-time filmmakers find small distributors to share them. They're usually genre movies. They might have one strong name attached to them, but a very small project. You'll see

Helen Hunt or Sam Elliott will appear in a movie. You'll be like, wait a minute. Helen Hunt is in a new drama, but it turns out it's just a very small film made by her son's best friend. And she threw her name in the ring because she wanted to be a good mom. You know, like there's, there's always circumstances around which these movies happen. And the only time I think on this podcast, when we talk about them is when Chris Ryan comes on and tells me about a horror movie that sounds good. And I watch it and it's usually bad. And I think I have like a, we've had an aversion to it. And it's hard to know if people are watching these movies because the conversation around them is very diffuse. I assume that you're watching even fewer of these movies than I am. Yeah, I take no risks at all. Though I do want to say,

in Chris Ryan's defense, and I don't know why I'm defending Chris ever, but one of these movies that he did identify was plus one, which was the rom-com with Myers kind. And that was delightful. So thank you to Chris. Chris is also like, Chris is very gen X. Like I need to find the thing first. I don't believe in marketing and you know what? I am a child of the late nins and I need to be marketed to. I just, I do. I'm sorry. My brain has been warped. And if you're not trying to sell me on something, why am I going to give you my time? But yeah, I think it's a combination of, I do intuitively assume that if it's on VOD, it's because it couldn't quite meet theater or even streaming service demands at this point,

which is already there is I don't want to say there are different standards for movies like streaming originals and particularly Netflix originals. And I think you and I have a lot of complicated feelings about that. But I'm like, if this wasn't even going to be on one of those, then why am I going to spend my time on it? I think the other thing is also we just watch a tremendous number of movies for this podcast and I have to pick my spots.

I'm not like you. I can't watch 40 movies in a week or whatever, especially at home. So that has been another interesting part of this is trying to figure out what my streaming movie life is like at home and then how VOD fits into that, especially when in addition to all of the original movies on the streaming services and all of the kind of studio movies that have been pushed to VOD,

there is just all of the awesome libraries that are available. And it is in my nature just to open up Starz and be like, sick, Pride and Prejudice from 2005 is on stars my number one movie library so now i'm just gonna watch that instead of you know whatever new thing i i wouldn't say that curiosity is a major part of my home viewing experience which is probably not something that i should admit in public but i'm being honest here well i mean that will probably

have to evolve over time you know i think because of the way that things are changing this has been an interesting experience to specifically try to catch up with as many of these VOD movies as possible for me because you're right I do watch a ton of stuff but so much of that stuff is also marketed to me and is clearly in the frame of what is the meaningful conversation around movies this week is it a Chris Nolan movie is it a Wes Anderson movie is it you know a genre that we know that we want to attack because a movie like knives out has come so we'll just hit all the murder mysteries that we can this was much more like a like a game of roulette where you have to read a couple of reviews from people that you trust but frequently these movies are not reviewed by top tier critics so it's a little hard to know how to navigate the

playing field. You got to take more chances. Not every movie that we have on our list here is a VOD movie. In fact, I think it's about half from streaming services or television and half from VOD. But I did watch five or six movies on VOD this week. They were pretty bad or very flawed. And I wanted to give them an honest chance. But you can't help but get to that 57 or 68 minute mark in a movie that isn't working for you and just be like, God,

what am I doing here? I mean, is this really how I'm spending my life? It's like getting to the end of this movie that I know I don't like. And Life is Too Short has taken on different connotations over the last two months. But that one in particular has been more resonant for me because I, like I said, I see myself as omnivorous, but there is just a lot of junk. So sifting through the junk is kind of a part of this exercise. It does feel a little bit like film festivals and obviously film festivals that have not been able to hold their physical festivals this year have moved online. But there is a lot of stuff that you're just like, huh, I'll give it a try. And they say at film festivals, what you're

supposed to do is that if you are not feeling it, or you know, this movie isn't going to be for you, you're supposed to leave. And you're supposed because you're supposed to see as many things. That's the point. I have never done that. I always feel really bad. So I guess we have to learn that as well. It's a different way of watching movies if you're trying to find the really new cool things versus understanding that this movie has been deemed significant or might be or trying to add to a conversation. And I think it really just is like a different watching strategy than you are certainly I am used to. No, it's completely true. And I think it's probably important to note for the sake of this conversation that most of the movies we're going to talk about here are, are new to

this conversation. There are things that we haven't had a chance to hit on. We have talked about a, a lot of movies that have come out during this period that we would recommend. We can talk about a couple of them right now. And also there have been a bunch that were released in that nether zone between February 28th and March 13th when movies like The Hunt and Invisible Man and Never Rarely Sometimes Always and Bakurao and movies that are really good or at least interesting.

Emma also comes to mind that we'd spent time on, on this show, but that I think are not specifically what we're trying to do here, which is almost like get a sense of what the landscape is right now. One also that I feel like probably could or should be on our list, but we've just devoted time to it twice already is Crip Camp on Netflix. So maybe we'll just foreground the conversation by saying we're not going to hit on that movie on our list, but it is one of the better documentaries that we've seen thus far this

year i think you did see it at sundance right i did yeah the first movie i saw at sundance was very cute right which is the story of um the the disabled persons movement in america and the way that it evolved out of this camp in the 1970s and how it became this you know extraordinary social story that most people i think think, just don't know. It's a very kind of down-the-middle, issues-oriented documentary. It's not going to blow your mind the way that it's organized,

but it is a strong film. Were there any other movies that came out in this period that we're not going to hit on here that we should address before we dig into our list? We did talk about Baccarat early on. And that's another one in that nether zone of, it was kind of in theaters, but I watched it on virtual screening. And that's also just my memory of trying to figure out how virtual screening works, which I've got it now two months in, but it was a lot of, you want to talk about like ipad disasters anyway um or just absolutely remarkable

we're not it's not on our list but i think it counts and go see it if you haven't yeah people should check that one out for sure and that that raises an interesting distinction which is streaming tv vod virtual cinema and pvod so how do we explain this very quickly? PVOD premium video on demand. That means you pay 1999 for a limited period to watch trolls world tour VOD. That means on day and date of release, you get an opportunity to rent a movie. Like some of the films we'll talk about here for four 99 or six 99 on some of

those services, TV. Everybody knows what TV is. is is easy tv though not many people have it anymore but i know i i don't even really have it myself they're streaming of course which we know about netflix amazon prime all those spaces disney plus increasingly soon the peacock and hbo max stay tuned to the big picture we'll be talking about the vast library coming to hbo max soon speaking of uh making amanda comfortable with her library at home. Also speaking of marketing anyway.

Good point. We'll get into that when we get later into May. And then, of course, there's virtual cinema. I've had a bunch of people on Twitter ask me if we could do like a virtual cinema episode. The truth is, it's a little hard to do that because a lot of the movies that are being offered by a virtual cinema are also being offered via vod so that means you could pay 12 bucks to support a local theater and watch a movie or you could pay six bucks and rent it off of uh you know a big tech company's platform spend your money however you feel is right you know if you want to support theaters you should

but if you don't have enough money to do that and you really want to watch The Wretched on Apple, go ahead. You know, like, I don't want to proselytize to people that they should be watching their movies, you know? Do what you can.

Do what you can. Exactly. Shall we go to our list? Let's do it. Okay, before we do that, we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Masterclass. Masterclass lets you learn

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Okay, we're back. Top 10s. We're going to basically bounce back and forth on our choices here. You've chosen five and I've chosen five, though there bounce back and forth on our choices here. You've chosen five and I've chosen five, though there was some consensus building as per usual here. We're going to start in a place that I'm very excited to talk to you about because you might have heard me talk about this movie on the Ringer NBA show. It's obviously the cultural event of the year,

but Amanda Dobbins has not had a chance to weigh in. What's the first pick, Amanda? It is The Last Dance, the 10-part Michael Jordan documentary on ESPN. And I am loving this. I want to credit you, Sean. Before the documentary was even released, you sent me a Slack. I believe it was like a Saturday afternoon. And you encouraged me to seek this out. I was going to watch it already because it's a cultural event. And I want to talk about like the event watching aspect of this.

But you told me specifically to seek it out because you felt that I would relate to certain aspects of Michael Jordan's personality. And I believe the phrasing that you used was like radiant pettiness. And I've never felt more understood. And it's so true. I have never responded more to someone just being petty in public than Michael Jordan. I ask that instead of speaking about this documentary on the podcast that we just insert a clip from a recent episode where Michael Jordan is trying to get to a tea time, I believe. And he's trying to get the whole team on the bus so

that he can leave and get to where he needs to go. And he makes it to the bus. And there are a lot of people standing in front of the bus. And there is a camera crew in front of the bus. And he gets on the bus and sits in the driver's seat of the bus and just like lays on the horn for 20 seconds. And I quite frankly have never felt more spiritually connected to someone in my entire life. So I got to ask you something about this. Specifically, do you operate in the same way that MJ does in that you have to invent enemies to be successful?

No, I don't think so because I don't think that I am as competitive as Michael Jordan. But I think what's speaking to me is that, in my opinion, the true definition of success, better than being the greatest basketball player of all time, better than having millions and millions and millions of dollars and living wherever he does with his very large whiskey glass and his cargo shorts, is just being able to be an asshole to people and they just have to deal with it. Just being able to sit in the bus and honk the horn and everyone just be like, okay, well, there's nothing we can do about it because that's Michael Jordan. That is success when you're so good that people can't say anything to you.

That's true. That's like me forcing you to talk about MCU movies every three months on this podcast. Sometimes you just got to know when to flex. Michael Jordan essentially invented flexing. So much has been said about this series. We're only halfway through it. We're actually going to be talking to Jason Hare on the NBA show, Chris and I. I think if you're liking it now, you'll like it even more as it goes on. But I think as an event too,

it's an interesting way to discuss this because I don't know what to compare it to. It doesn't have an audience of like 30 million. This isn't like Shogun on ABC in the 80s. It's not quite at that level. But for what you and I do, and for ringer purposes, and for the kind of terrariums that we've built around ourselves, this is the noisiest thing I can remember. Absolutely. And everybody is consuming

it at the same time. It really does feel... We watch it on Sunday nights in my house, which I honestly can't remember the last time. I can. It was Game of Thrones. It was the last time that I kept up with a regular schedule. And every single time I went to see a Marvel movie on opening weekend so that we could talk about it or really most tentpole things. But it has that monoculture spanning time incentive where you have to see it when everyone else is seeing it so that you can discuss about it. And I think you're right. The monoculture is much smaller. It's our monoculture. But no one else has been able to create that kind of viewing experience right now, especially when we're all in our homes and being like, okay, this is what we're all going to watch

and talk about. Kudos to Jason and ESPN. And I think the decision to move it up, which we speculated on very early on in quarantine, and that came to pass, was just a stroke of genius. It was interesting to even look at the kind of normal hype cycle, where I think after Sunday's episode, there started to be a lot more criticism about it. And there was a lot more like, oh, of course, he did an episode about Jordans. Of course, there was an episode that kind of explained away some of the more unfortunate aspects of Michael Jordan's backstory. But that's just kind of the way that this stuff always goes with things like this. Like if you let something be in the consciousness for five consecutive weeks, it's going to come

all the way back around again, where seven and eight is going to happen. And people are going to be like, this show is unbelievable. And then who knows what nine and 10 has for us. Unfortunately, I heard that the end was spoiled for you. Yes. So I texted you and Chris Ryan the first night because this is so embarrassing. I can't believe I'm doing this in public. Bill, I really, Bill, I hope you're not listening to this. I realized that despite really aggressive marketing, which I just earlier in this podcast said works on me, really, I didn't know whether the Bulls won this season. That is the focus of the documentary and that they have all of this incredible footage from. And I could have probably guessed, but I decided to go spoiler free. And so I told my husband, I told you, I told Chris, I told Bobby

to just not mention the end of the documentary to me. Don't tell me whether the Bulls win and I'm just going to have a full spoiler-free experience. And I got to say, I lasted almost two weeks, I think, because I have trained myself. I can tune out, display, I guess, a note to any people who are trying to market to me. Like as soon as I saw Bulls, it was like I wasn't even reading the words,

but I forgot that it would apply to audio and video as well. So I just watched NBA Desktop one week as one does. And of course, they mentioned the six championships. I was just like, damn it. So it did get spoiled for me. But congratulations to the Chicago Bulls on their six championships. Okay, that's a great way to transition out of the last dance into number nine which is an interesting discussion point here i'm gonna recommend a movie called spaceship earth to

people that is directed by the documentarian matt wolf i saw it at sundance it's available on vod and virtual cinema this friday may 8th if you're looking to check that out and it's a fascinating movie about something a sort of a group of people who began operating in a kind of commune-like fashion that are led by this Godhead figure with a lot of big ideas in the 70s and eventually evolved into an organization that would build and occupy a biodome in the 1980s in an effort to see if they could test what life would be like in the event of a nuclear holocaust or if we had to move to space or you know it was essentially like a an ecological and social experiment to see how people can interact and whether they can live off the land as it were the land that they designed for themselves now there are some flaws with this film. This film is very, I would say, credulous and generous to the participants. And a slightly different approach to this movie might have been a bit more critical of some of the figures. Some have even, at the time, people were also describing this organization as cult-like.

But the reason to watch it is twofold. One, the footage is extraordinary. I mean, the, the, the exploration of what these people did specifically in the back half of the film, when they actually go into the biosphere is really fascinating. And two, I mean, could there be a more appropriate quarantine movie than a movie about people purposefully quarantining for fear of long-term destruction. It's just, it's incredible timing. And this movie we should also mention was moved up so that audiences could watch it at home. Certainly a purposeful move there with some insight about COVID-19. Amanda, I know that you maybe didn't respond to it as positively as I did.

I think everything you said is true in terms of timing. And you want to talk about marketing. It is a perfect for this moment. And it does have a tremendous amount of footage and and access. And what I realized watching it. And I think what I slacked you 20 minutes in was I just I can't stand these spaceship earth hippies. They're just not my kind of hippies and it's it

is a great quarantine movie and very revealing in a way is that an essential part of a quarantine movie and also a quarantine is that you need to be able to spend time with people they have to be your type of hang and if not if you don't want to spend two hours with these people then you you don't really enjoy the movie. And like, what are you supposed to do for two years? And I just I found it a hard time hanging out with these people, which in a way they got a reaction out of me. I have a lot of thoughts about their their experiment.

I honestly I thought using the natural sun was cheating. I noticed you didn't respond to that text. But anyway, it is very engaging. I just have found myself gravitating towards documentaries with people who I want to spend time with, with maybe the notable exception of the next film on this list, if I can segue in.

Go ahead. Well, I don't know. I did want to spend time with them. I would watch 10 hours of this. I have chosen Natalie Wood, What Remains Behind, which is a redundant title, just FYI. And in many ways, that is a summary for what's going on here. I had the same thought. I'm glad you pointed that out so this is an HBO documentary that was uh released this week um directed by Laurent Buzereau um but made with the not just the cooperation but the direct involvement of Natalie Wood's family and you know Natalie Wood was one of the great stars of classic Hollywood. And she died very early at the age of 43 in a

now famous incident off the coast of Catalina. This was in 1981. And the circumstances of her death have become just one of the biggest Hollywood mysteries, like tabloid fodder, source of speculation and rumor, like many podcasts and books and Dr. Phil's appearances, you name it. And so I think this documentary is a response to that in a lot of ways. And it is attempt on the part of the family to reclaim their mother and wife and friend and to present something other than what has been covered quite salaciously in the media for almost 40 years. And it's a very understandable impulse. It also means that like, hagiography is not even the word for what's going on here. It is not objective. And I don't even think they're trying to be objective because the family is so involved. And one of her daughters, Natasha Gregson Wagner, really acts both as a narrator and at many points,

an interviewer, which is interesting. So we'll get to that in a second. I do think if you're interested in classic Hollywood, you're interested in Hollywood. There is like a lot of great footage from parties and a lot of home videos. And everyone is like extremely beautiful. And because the family is involved, like Mia Farrow and Robert Redford and Elliot Gould everyone shows up in the documentary and it paints a very very simplified but nice portrait of Natalie Wood the other purpose of the documentary seems to me to really be to engage with much of the speculation about the circumstances of Natalie Wood's death that has happened over the years, and specifically the speculation around Robert Wagner. The case was reopened in 2011, and Robert Wagner was named as a person of interest

in 2018. And the documentary just goes head in on that and actually has Natasha Gregson Wagner, who is Wagner's stepdaughter, but she calls him Daddy Wagner throughout the course of the documentary. All I could hear was like Daddy Warbucks. Anyway, and she walks him through the night and walks him through all the charges and asks him to give his version of what's going on. Again, it is not an objective interview. It is a daughter and a father figure talking through it. But given the amount of speculation and I just couldn't believe I was watching this. It was fascinating that their decision to do this and their decision to go through it and to engage with it so directly after he talks

about the case from being reopened, they go through all the tabloid coverage and show like Dr. Phil clips, they're really offering their version of events. And you don't see that very often. I agree. I mean, you actually reached out to me while you hadn't gotten to the meat of the sort of Natasha Gregson Wagner, Robert Wagner conversation that kind of the film kind of culminates in after they start, you know, deep diving deeper into the circumstances of Wood's death. This movie is firmly in the camp of not a great film, but absolutely riveting. And like you said, if you care about classic Hollywood,

just watch it. Like it's just, it's a little pocket history of a woman who is simultaneously, I think one of the most important movie actors of the 60s and 70s, but also someone who's a little bit forgotten because of the tabloid aspect. Like she as a person is forgotten

and the movie works hard to restore her as a human being, which I really appreciated. And it's, you know, there's something nice about a hagiography at times. I think there can be something valuable in that. I'm not, I don't want to reject it out of hand. Where the movie gets just wild is when it becomes like a,

it's almost like a courtroom drama. I mean, it's almost like a soft, it's like, it's not a cross-examination though. It's interrogating your own witness to get as many positive things to support the case out as possible. It's the definition of leading questions. And again, it's, it is, she has established how much Robert Wagner, or again, Daddy Wagner means to her so many times. By the time you get to this, the number of times that she says Daddy Wagner is astonishing to me, but people live in families in different

ways. So, you know, you understand their intent and you know that it is really subjective, but it is just astonishing. I just could, I couldn't believe I was watching it. And that's my favorite type of documentary that I cannot believe that someone agreed to put this on tape. Yeah. I don't think that we can say that much more about it because I'm afraid I'm going to say something like wrong or inappropriate. I tried very hard to be as straightforward as possible when recounting what happened in this documentary. People have to judge it and watch it and judge for themselves the same way that they can

watch an episode of Dr. Phil where Lana Wood appears and shares her theories about what may have happened it's a it's it feels like an unsolvable thing in many ways and this is this is the same way that jfk was a counter myth this kind of feels like a counter myth you know it's a way to respond to this industry of gossip that has arisen around natalie wood's death um Speaking of counter myths, I'm going to recommend a movie that I just kind of stumbled into last night. And this was like a late edition, but it was actually recommended

on the Shockwaves podcast, which I've gotten into, which is a really good horror movie podcast. And they mentioned it very briefly on this show this week. It's called Blood Quantum. It premiered at the Toronto toronto international film festival as part of the midnight series last year it's directed by a guy named jeff barnaby who i'd

never heard of before this is a zombie movie it's a very classic zombie movie except for the fact that the cast crew and filmmaker are all first nations indigenous people and the story is told from the perspective of the i want I hope I'm getting this right, but the Mi'kmaq tribe, which is in a Canadian province. And it's a really, really well-made, super gory, inventive zombie movie that is completely in the lineage of George Romero and Night of the Living Dead and then the later Living Dead movies. I was kind of shocked by how good it was. And it's available on Shudder right now

if you want to watch it. It came out, I believe, at the end of April. And while, you know, it's like a lot of great horror movies in that like the characterization is maybe not as strong as you want it to be. Maybe you're not as invested in the performances as you want it to be.

This is not Get Out or The Exorcist. But for these circumstances, I was like, holy shit, Jeff Barnaby, this is not Get Out or The Exorcist, but for these circumstances, I was like, holy shit, Jeff Barnaby, this is a person to pay attention to. I found myself kind of desperate to hear what he was doing next because I learned that his first film was also set in this world

and that he has a real focus on telling stories from the indigenous point of view, which like there are like 10 films ever that are told from that perspective. It's just a very rare thing. And there is such obvious connectivity between the idea of the living dead and the earth and what comes out of the spirituality of that tribe. And I was just really, really impressed. So for horror fans, if you're looking for a good zombie movie that also has a little bit more depth than your usual bullshit VOD horror movie, I would highly recommend Blood

Quantum. What's next, Amanda? The next is the half of it, which is a Netflix movie. It is written and directed by Alice Wu. And I have to be honest, I have watched a lot of mediocre to not good Netflix rom-coms and teen movies in the past, I mean, weeks and months and years, to be quite honest. And this is a teen comedy that I thought worked and does that to all the boys I've loved before thing where it raises itself above the genre and is competent and thoughtful and lovely. It's essentially like a queer Cyrano de Bergerac where the premise is a young woman named Ellie Chu who's played by Leah Lewis, who I think is just fantastic. And she is very nerdy. Nerdy is unfair. She's very literary. And she is hired by the school jock to write love letters to the it girl in the high school

who the jock is in love with and who Ellie, the main character, also happens to be in love with. And a lovely, mostly text relationship ensues. They are very sophisticated teenagers. I have to be honest. Just a lot of talk about Wim Wenders and abstract art and all sorts of high-minded references. I was impressed with it. And the characters all have the right chemistry. And it ultimately ends up being about friendship

as much as it is about romance. I just found it a very sweet teen movie. And it's nice when these Netflix movies are made with this level of care. Yeah, I thought it was an interesting counterpoint to another movie that didn't make our list that we've mentioned a couple of times in Tiger Tail, which is Alan Yang's movie. And I think there's a relationship to that movie and another movie that we'll talk about a little bit later. But in the same way that there are not a lot of Jeff Barnaby filmmakers, there are not a lot of Alice Wu filmmakers or Alan Yang filmmakers.

And that's the other thing that I think is the big benefit to the Netflix experience. You know, the same thing with To All The Boys I Loved Before is based on Jenny Han's YA novel. Like it is it feels like this kind of performative virtue signaling thing, but it is literally an opportunity for people who otherwise don't get to make movies for Hollywood getting a chance to tell their stories. And it's been like 15 years since Alice Wu made a movie. So it's pretty cool. Let's go to number five, a movie that we have yet to discuss on this podcast that certainly struck a chord with me and that I would vociferously recommend. You may take some issue with that, Amanda. The movie is called Bad Education. It is also a film that premiered on HBO at the end of April.

It's directed by Corey Finley, who, if you are a longtime listener of the show, you might have heard Corey on when we talked about his first film, Thoroughbreds. Corey is a playwright, and he did not write Bad Education. He did write and direct Thoroughbreds. I thought Thoroughbreds was one of the secretly most impressive directorial debuts I'd seen in a while. He's got a ton of style. Bad Education is based on a real life story based on a New York Magazine article about a corrupt, I don't want to give away too much, I would corrupt hierarchy in a public school system on Long Island, not far from where I grew up. And it stars Hugh Jackman and Allison Janney and Ray Romano and a surprisingly deep bench of character actors and actresses. And it's somewhere between deep melodrama and arched satire, tonally. I think it kind of toggles back and forth between both of those things. And I think that you could make the case that that's what holds it back or

that's what makes it special. Um, I, for me, it really worked. It is an extraordinary evocation of the relationship that parents have to public schools on long Island. That there is a cult of commitment to excelling in schools in public schools in particular, which I think is kind of a

meaningful distinction here because there's a kind of arms race mentality. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law are both public school teachers. Both of my mother's siblings were both public school teachers on Long Island. My father's sister was a public school teacher on Long Island. My father's brother-in-law is a union president of the Teachers Union in New York State. I mean, this world runs really deep in my family. And so I'm probably not the most objective viewer of a movie like this. But I thought in addition to it just clicking my brain in a big way, it's also I just really like hugh jackman

and i like hugh jackman when he's just kind of going for it and i like him as logan and wolverine and that stuff is great but it's it's much more amusing to me when he's doing stage actor hugh jackman and this is stage actor hugh jackman he's hamming and it worked for me what did you think about education i liked the satire a little bit more than the melodrama, even though I agree with you that Hugh Jackman is great in this movie and really does actually develop all sides of that character in addition to the satire. As a person, I am not from Long Island, but many of the people closest to me in my life are very deep Long Island.

So I do have an affection of it. And it does help me understand all of you more. It are very deep Long Island. So I do have an affection of it and it does help me understand all of you more. It is very evocative. And that we're all crooks. I just, it just, it gives a real, it does give a real sense of place. You know, my main thing, I don't want to spoil too much, but this does involve a teenage high school journalist. And I just wanted more of the high school journalist, frankly. That is my main review of this film. Give me more of the high school journalist. Yeah. And we should say that one of the young women who we didn't have

on our 35 Under 35 Movie Stars episode, but who I think should have been on the list, or at least on the outside of the list, was Geraldine Viswanathan, who plays this journalist that you're talking about and who is the star of Blockers too, for those of you who saw Blockers. And she's really good. She's like a very, she has a, like a, I could see this person kind of being in Hollywood for the next 20 years kind of energy, you know, very precocious. She's like, she looks great on screen, very expressive actor. You know, she's going toe to toe with Hugh Jackman and Allison Janney in this movie and holding her own, you know? So I think it's, it's worth it for her too. I, I really dug that movie. I would recommend it. Um, I'll, I'll talk quickly about my next pick, which is a movie called Arkansas, which is

written and directed by Clark Duke. I think actually Chris Ryan is going to have Clark on the watch to talk about this movie. So Clark Duke, who people may recognize from his video series with, uh, Michael Sarah back in the late aughts. Remember that? Um,

and also, you know, he's a star movies like hot tub time machine, and he has adapted a novel by John Brandon. This is not at all what I would have expected that Clark Duke would have made. It's basically a country noir set in Arkansas. Clark is from Arkansas and it feels much more like Elmore Leonard than it does like Hot

Tub Time Machine. It stars Liam Hemsworth and Duke, but also features John Malkovich and Vivica Fox and Vince Vaughn. And I just want to talk very quickly. The movie is good. It's not amazing. It's I found it to be a little bit long. It does hit some noir genre tropes that I like.

But, and you know, I mentioned this to Chris yesterday. I feel like there's like a Vince Vaughn episode burbling inside me because everything that he's been doing for the last five years is so weird and so interesting. He was like one of the biggest movie stars on the planet. And now what he does is weird VOD crime dramas and, and curb your enthusiasm. And he seems to

be having a great time. There is a little bit of a tinge of MAGA going on with him. And I don't really know how to reconcile that, but he's still funny. And in this movie, he's kind of channeling something that he tried to do in the late nins post-Swingers when he was in Psycho and movies like Clay Pigeons, where he was trying to be kind of like a menacing, heavy type figure. And that has been like where his career has shifted in a lot of ways. I thought he was exceptional in Arkansas, even if Arkansas doesn't work all the way through. And I just wanted to spotlight him and try to figure out like what the fuck Vince Vaughn

is doing. If you do the Vince Vaughn episode, then you have to be prepared for Chris Ryan doing his normal people review by quoting Vince Vaughn in Wedding Crashers, just about young people rubbing up against each other, which I like normal people is wonderful. And essentially, Chris doing that ruined normal people for me because it's all I can think about is Chris doing Vince Vaughn. So I just know that that's what you'll be getting yourself into. And essentially, Chris doing that ruined normal people for me because it's all I can think about is Chris Draymond's Bond. So just know that that's what you'll be getting yourself into. Can you introduce our eighth pick here?

Yes, I would love to. It is Driveways, which is a film that I did not know much about until you sent it to me yesterday. And you said that it absolutely wrecked you. And I thought, okay, why not? And it also wrecked me. Just a tremendously well-executed, moving, I don't want to say small because it's actually not small. It is about generations and love and friendship

and finding other people who he can connect with. But it's a focused movie. It's about a mom and a son who come to... Honestly, where is this town? I think it's upstate New York. Okay. Who come into a town in upstate New York. They are there to clean out the home of the woman who's played by Hong Chao's sister,

who has recently died. And they're cleaning out the house. And in the process of doing that, make friends with the next door neighbor who is a vet played by Brian Dennehy. And that's it. That's the story. And it's one of those great examples of knowing exactly what you want to do and knowing exactly how much to take on and nailing it. And the casting is perfect. I think the writing is wonderful. You know all about these characters.

It is both sentimental and never treacly. I just, it was so lovely yeah i loved it too uh andrew on who had a movie at sundance a few years ago called spa night uh directed this and it was uh it's just one of those things that it came down the pike before brian then he passed away and the film was getting set for release and And then when he died a few weeks ago, it's just serendipitous is not the right word for something like this. But to watch the movie in the context of knowing that he's no longer with us, I think is incredible. I think it's just generally a fascinating movie about kind of loss and coping with the people that you were or

were not close to and what you lost in them and the way that they ran their lives and getting a little bit of insight into how their lives were and what you were missing out on. There's just like a knockout final six minutes of this movie that is a bit of a showcase for Brian Dennehy. And then also, I feel like we should say something about the little kid who is it? Is it Lucas J? Is that his name? I think that sounds right. He is amazing. I mean, what an incredible performance from this little kid who is only sharing a screen time with Hong Chao, who's a great actress who, you know, people may know from Downsizing or Inherent Vice or Forever Alan Yang's TV series. And Dennehy, who's like an 80 year old screen legend and theater legend and this kid is fucking incredible like he's so good and understated and not cloying and not falling into a lot of the traps that i think a kid in a

role like this could have i just i was really i was just really impressed by this movie and i'm sure that this is the kind of movie that, um, works better on you in this circumstance. It really just like kind of made me feel better. Uh, even if it's not necessarily uplifting, I was just, it just, it felt very decent to me, which not necessarily all of these movies are going to be able to do that. And that movie is going to be available on VOD on Friday, May 8th. And I think it's also available in some virtual cinemas. So if you want to support a movie theater, you can hunt it out there.

Number two is extraction. I won't say too much about extraction, but I do want to kind of correct the record. Here's what happened. You and I did a podcast. We talked about extraction. We talked about it as a second screen experience. I talked about how there were a couple of cool set pieces. And then we moved on.

We might have been even a little bit dismissive of the movie. I would like to correct her. I think I said this movie works and I shared my experience of it working, which is that my husband and I traded places and he was just yelling, yes, at the TV screen for two hours. And we watched the whole thing. And I was like, oh, this movie is going to work. It might not be like my number one type of movie, but this movie works. I don't want to impugn you in any way. I'm mostly reflecting on myself, which is to say that I watched it a second time. I watched it a second time in part because there was this revelation that it's an incredibly

well-watched movie, which is not that shocking when you think about the circumstances. But also because I just wanted to get a second look at the the one or sequence, the 13 minute sequence, and then the final sequence on the bridge, which is just a crazy shootout. And I like the movie a lot more the second time. And I was really impressed by it. And then I talked to Sam Hargrave, which you'll hear in a little bit. And I was like, oh, this guy's really smart. His story is really cool.

The thought and the work that went into this movie is is actually it's not your typical tossed off Netflix kind of feeling thing. And so I appreciate it a lot more. So I'm sure a lot of people have already seen this movie already. But if they haven't and they like action movies, you should watch it.

It works. And there is, we can spend hours and hours podcasting and talking about all the different elements of movies. But sometimes it's just, you know, and you see it like a movie is working

or a movie isn't working. And you can just tell this movie is working. 100 speaking of working i was happy to see your last and final pick um where are we going now we are going back to beastie boy's story which is a movie that i loved and a movie that meant a lot to me and i wanted to put it on this list number one just because i liked watching it. And it was like the most fun that I've had. And that is because I'm of an age where BC Boys were like the coolest thing that existed.

And I think I learned what cool was and also what mischief was from BC Boys and have always idolized them. But you want to talk about people you want to hang out with. There is no one that I want to hang out with more in the world, really, than Ad-Rock, but I will take all of them. And this is a movie that was conceived for that purpose. It was always meant, I think, to be on streaming. And it's that performance within a movie atmosphere. And it is about spending time with them and them telling you what they want you to know about themselves. And in addition to watching a lot of celebrity documentaries, because I'm

interested in celebrity, I have been watching a lot of documentaries where the subject in question is really involved and is shaping the narrative. And that's, you know, par for the course in this day and age. And I find it really interesting because you can learn a lot about someone from what they choose to tell you and how they choose to tell it. And the Beastie Boys are like really specific. They will not let anyone else tell their story and they will, they're very exact about it, even though the performance and the experience itself is like very off the cuff. And you're supposed to just think that they are, I mean, you know, they're reading from a script, but they're not quote taking it very seriously while also taking

it very seriously. So I think it's a really interesting study in image management. I put BC Boy Story on the list. I did also watch Becoming, which is the Michelle Obama documentary that was released this week on Netflix. And it is very similar in that it is an exercise in image management by someone who I want to spend a lot of time with. I will tell you, I teared up multiple times watching Becoming. It is the story of the Becoming book tour. Becoming is the book that Michelle Obama wrote about her experience a few years ago. And so it's actually similar to BC Boy Story. And then some of it is like filmed snippets from her arena tour. And she's with someone on stage and there are people responding to it. And then there is a little behind the scenes stuff and but it's very managed and you only get what she wants to tell you but to me what she still wants to tell you is like very moving and this is not the ideal thing

for a documentary or journalism and I don't want to finish this podcast by being like you know what we should do is we should just let really famous people just say whatever they want and never ask them any questions. And that's all that we should pursue. I mean, that's how you get the Natalie Wood documentary, which was fascinating. But I think we will get more of those. This is just because this is how journalism and media works and i think bc boy story is such a um great example of people knowing how to sell something about themselves that is managed but still artfully done and interesting and you leave it feeling like you connected if to a to a movement if not to the people themselves yeah i, I agree with you. The mischief part resonates with me trying to

interview them last week. That was a bit of an intellectual challenge for me. But I think that this movie is really in league with almost all of the documentaries here that we're talking about. Certainly The Last Dance, certainly the Michelle Obama film, certainly the Natalie Wood film. I think it has the most in common with The Last Dance because we just don't have a lot of exposure now to Michael Jordan and we don't have a lot of exposure to Ad-Rock and Mike D and what they're thinking and what their life is like and who they are. And in the same way, seeing MJ clutching that glass of whiskey in that terribly colored t-shirt shows us something about who he is now

it's the same thing with seeing adam on stage in his gray sweatshirt and his khakis and like what a dad he is now and how their lives have and how like our how closely our lives are intertwined with their lives in the way that we appreciate and identify and feel nostalgic about what they gave us i mean it's almost a one-to-one for me with MJ. I mean, basketball and rap were so intertwined into my youth that it's wild that we've now reached the phase in our lives, Amanda and I, that the stuff that we grew up on just is fodder for this kind of stuff. But it is. We're here. It happened. Yes. I hadn't thought about it in that sense. I guess I did feel a little old after watching Beastie Boys story, but not in a bad way,

just in a grateful way. Glad for the times that we had. And what do you do? Are you quitting? Are you retiring? Where are you going? I don't know. I mean, it is it is very funny, especially when you grew up watching people who are so much younger and then you don't know. I mean, it is very funny, especially when you grew up watching people who are so much younger and then you don't see them as much and you see them now. And I think this goes both for Michael Jordan and Ad-Rock and Mike D. It's just like, oh, the passage of time is real. And you don't think about it when you look at your own face every day, but you certainly do when you're watching these extensive documentaries and they say things like 20 or 25 or 30 years ago. I don't know, man.

I'm with you. The passage of time on this podcast is also real. Appreciate you taking some time to watch some movies you may not have otherwise given a shot. You know, stay tuned for my interview with Sam Hargrave and also tune in next week where Amanda and I are going to be back to talk about films that take place at sea and we'll be joined by a special guest his name is Captain Chris Ryan Amanda I'll see you then Sam I'm always interested to talk to stunt performers turned filmmakers I've talked to

Chaz Dehelsky I've talked to David Leitch. You know, I'm fascinated in the work that you guys do. I always like to hear a little bit about how you got interested in movies and then got into the movie business. So I was hoping you could sort of talk through how you got to this place before you were making a giant action film for Netflix? Happy to discuss that. I started my kind of love for movies back in North Carolina, where I grew up. I was raised in the middle of three kids, the older sister, younger brother, and we all loved Westerns. We all loved TV and movies that would, my, my granddad had cable and he would record these things on VHS tapes and he

would ship them and you'd wait for the weekly shipment of VHS tapes that came. Cause you know, we're out where we lived in the country. Didn't get a whole lot of you know, there's no cable, like three channels. And so that was for the news, but then we'd wait on these VHS tapes and it was like the greatest joy of our little lives. And then what we saw, we would then try to emulate. Like we would go out and if we saw a Western where there was a shootout and then, you know, a guy falls off a building, we'd climb up to the loft of the hay barn. And, you know, my brother would be on the bottom and he'd get his little finger gun and go bang and down i would fall into a pile of hay and then we even i mean

there's even somewhere out there i think my mom has them there are recordings of little movies that we made i think i was probably 10 or 11 years old my brother would have been seven or eight of little westerns that we would shoot ourselves as little, you know, stories that we would shoot. And they're hilarious, you know, when you watch them now. So I think when you, when I look back, it all makes sense, if you know what I mean. But I, at the time had no idea we were just doing, we were just copying what we saw on TV and movies, but you you know that kind of stuck with me led me into martial arts because i i loved watching it was i think it was hercules uh

the legendary journeys and xena warrior princess that you know we would watch and loved it and so that they did some martial arts and then got into martial arts at the local taekwondo studio and through that was introduced to hong kong cinema and then it just you know forget about it once jackie chan was on the menu there was nothing else for me at that time and that was what i just consumed voraciously i just couldn't get enough jackie chan and um that led me to film school, which ultimately led me out to Los Angeles because of my friend Thayer Harris being part of these short films that we would do. And he looked at me one day and said, you know, you're pretty good at falling down on your head. There's a career path that will actually pay you for that. You know, and those people are called stunt performers. You should try that. And I, I did. And you know, now here we are many, many years later.

Was your aspiration always to be a filmmaker or just somebody who got to be a part of making movies? My aspirations were always to be a filmmaker. That was what I wanted to do. I went, you know, I wanted to be like Jackie Chan. I wanted to make movies no matter what the process it was. And to not just, I mean, I've done many jobs in the filmmaking business. I mean, I've done, you know, I've been a grip. I've been an electrician.

I've, I've, you know, held boom poles on low budget projects like i've done a lot of the work i've been an editor for you know different tv things so i've done different jobs but ultimately my goal has always been to tell stories to create these stories and you know and it seems like action is in my dna for some reason i can't get away from it not that i want to but it always comes back to action. And that's always been something I've wanted to do is tell stories that have action and entertain people with performances. Yes, making movies and being part of that process

in a creative way has always been an aspiration of mine. You're a young guy who has gone to film school, but presumably doesn't have a lot of contacts in hollywood and you moved to la from north carolina and how do you get work how do you get jobs it's different for everybody for me it was it's hilarious my first two jobs or ways to make money were teaching martial arts to kids after school in the Valley. I was in North Hollywood. So I'd go to these afterschool programs and I would teach kids,

you know, Taekwondo and whatever else. And then also on the weekends, I would do Spider-Man birthday parties. I would, I had a Halloween costume that looked decent. It wasn't great. It wasn't anything from the movies or anything.

But I put it on and I'd go to these kids' birthday parties and I would make balloon animals and I would play games with them. I'd flip off of trees and I would just entertain them for of constantly trying to meet people who were in the business, learn about stunts, and just make contacts, make connections. And then it was through those connections that I got my first union job as a stunt performer. And then the stunt career took off and led me down that path for many, many years. But I was always doing that with the eye to collect skills and collect experiences that I would later put into making my own films. What was your first big break? Not your first job necessarily, but the first time you were on a set where it felt like this is a film that a lot of people are going to see and I'm a part of making this thing. I got called to be one of the many stunt performers. I think some days there were over 100 on Pirates of the Caribbean 2. And it was then where you're on set with hundreds of other stunt performers, legends in the business. Some guys had been around for 30 years. Some guys like me were just starting.

And it was a way to really put your face out there because part of it is people knowing who you are, knowing your name, and then associating that name with a certain set of skills or a certain work ethic and so you're kind of i will say on trial but you're you're out there and really proving yourself as a performer and as a person so that these people who have the potential to give you jobs or to recommend you or whatever have a lasting positive impression and then hopefully you can get work out of it so that was the first time when i set foot on that set was like wow this is a big deal i need to kind of like, you know, be on my best behavior and, and just show them what I be me and show them what I have and what I can offer. And I was fortunate enough to get to do some, some cool stunts and people saw it. And then after that, you know, the phone phone started ringing in earnest. How does a stunt performer go from being a person who's one of hundreds of stunt performers to

someone who is doing doubling or who has like a star that they work with frequently like how do you make that transition transitioning from just being a stunt performer in a an indie stunt performer they call them nondescript to a stunt double can happen many ways for me it was a specific skill set matched with being an average six foot white guy and i was very fortunate to be really it's funny in this in this case mediocrity is helpful because i look average looks average build kind of average everything so that fits because you can go up or down so you can fit you know people who are a little taller than you a little shorter than you a little like larger a little smaller and it allowed me to double

a lot of different people and i never attached to one specific actor necessarily like i was very fortunate to work for marvel uh more than once and double captain america on numerous films but it wasn't, you know, I, and Chris Evans and I have a great relationship. It just wasn't one of those things where he's like, that's my guy.

And I go with him on every movie. Like he's done a lot of movies without me. It's just more that I'm attached to that kind of Captain America character. But you know, some people like you got the, some of the greats like Bobby Holland, Hinton, who's,

you know, Chris Hemsworth's stunt double. And they have been great friends since the Avengers movies. And they do everything. They do all their shows together. Renee Moneymaker, she's like Jennifer Lawrence's stunt double. She does all her movies. So some people land with an actor, and that's just their gravy train.

Some people, like I tried to be super diverse, work with a lot of different people. And mostly being a double, I think comes down to right height, right weight, right skills. And just, you know, in a part of it is being very lucky. You got to be prepared, like chance favors the well prepared. It's not about, you know, just dumb luck, but it does help to be in the right place at the right time and to be of a certain look and skillset. I assume that's where you met the Russos working on the Marvel movies, which who are the producers and writers of Extraction. I mean, how do you make a, as a stunt performer, and I don't know if you were running teams on Marvel movies or what you were doing, but how do you put yourself in a position to kind of go from working on second unit, doing stunts to getting a gig like this?

Yeah. I first met Joe and Anthony Russo on the set of Marvel's Captain America, the Winter Soldier. And I was, I was just a stunt double on that show. And I mean, I helped the fight team design some of the fights for Captain America, but you know, worked with a really cool stunt team and I think it was really just the fact that I think that they saw through that it was I was there to do more than just stunts I was there to do I mean my attitude has always been do whatever it takes for the film to get the best product so I would you know move pads when they need to be moved if somebody needed something I would do that I mean I wasn't just there to be like, hey, if you need me to flip over that thing, I'll be in my trailer. I was always on set. Even when I'm not needed there, I'd show up and stand behind the monitors and look at how are they shooting, you know, trying not to be annoyingly obtrusive, like not just breathing down their neck but it close enough where i could watch and absorb and learn because for me it was always a learning process like i'm not there having no i

don't know all of it i'm not there like i'm the man you know watch me work it's like how can i become better even in my job watch what the other stunt doubles do what can i what can i learn from the stunt team what can i learn from you know team? What can I learn from, you know, the grips of camera guys? What, what kind of gear are they using? Cause I I'm look, I'm using these experiences not to necessarily be just the best stunt performer, but the best filmmaker. So I'm like, what lens I would ask, turn around to the camera guy who's shooting me in between takes. Hey, what lens are we on? And he'd be like, Oh, you know,

I'm shooting on a whatever a 50 and I'd be like, okay, cool. And I knew what that meant. I haven't been to film school. I knew that like a 50, you know i'm shooting on a whatever a 50 and i'd be like okay cool and i knew what that meant having been to film school i knew that like a 50 you know is a tighter lens and say like a 35 and they would we'd have these interesting conversations and i you know maybe i asked the russo's like why for this specific instance why are you choosing to use that it feels very tight and they would go oh well i want the kinetic energy of this like okay file that away and you know a lot of it comes down to personal preference but i was always in there always asking questions always ready to do whatever so i think they noticed that and then on um captain america civil war they called me personally joe called me i'll

always remember the phone call but asked me if i wanted to be the stunt coordinator on captain america civil war and that was you know huge for me to be to be the stunt coordinator on Captain America Civil War. And that was, you know, huge for me to be go from a stunt double to stunt coordinating. I coordinated before, like I just finished doing, you know, three Hunger Games movies, a hundred million dollar plus movies. So I knew stunt coordinating, but this to me was a whole nother level. There was the, you know, the pressure and expectation of a Marvel movie. And you've got, you know, Civil War, you get so many so many characters and you know there's a lot of eyes on you so this is

kind of the the big state and a lot of fight action a lot of stuff that i considered my specialty so it was a very big opportunity for me a very big test a lot of pressure but the russos were great they kind of took me under their wing and were very helpful. And, you know, I made the transition with them from stunt double to stunt coordinator. And then it was, again, just, you know, slowly putting in your time and, you know, hard work and always kind of being there. Learning is then in the Finley War. They gave me some additional second unit days because I think it was Alexander Witten. Maybe he's one of the best second unit directors out there. He was doing that show as the main second unit,

but there was so much footage for Infinity War to be shot that they're like, hey, go out and do, you know, take a camera and a crew and go out and get us some of the stuff. And so I did. They were great to give me credit for second unit on that. And so they think they were watching and kind of seeing how i would respond and then on um end game it kind of went you know full on i was directing death scenes by myself of like beloved marvel characters and i'm like looking around like where's joe and anth like this is this is weird but it let me do it and i think a lot of it was

just you know them just seeing if I had what it took to, to do my own movie. And, you know, it was during that time when they asked me, when they approached me, Joe did with the script and said, Hey,

I think I have a really good story that could fit your sensibilities and could be a good first film for you to direct. That's, that's a, that's a kind of a Cinderella story. I feel like, do you, does it feel that way? Completely. That whole experience with Marvel and the Russo brothers was a Cinderella story. It's like a movie. Starting on the first Avengers film, working with Joss Whedon,

but just doubling Captain America in the suit, that tight blue suit. And then meeting the Russos, you know, going up to coordinator second unit and then coming back full circle. It was almost eight years later, nine years later, where I was then on an end game directing with a cat versus cat fight. I came out of retirement, shaved my beard, cut my hair, put myself back in the Captain America suit so that I could on camera kind of finish my career. I started in that suit and then I finished in that suit. But I also got to fight against my brother on camera, my younger

brother, which goes back to when we were shooting movies as kids, when we were 10 years old. So now to fast forward on the biggest movie ever made to be fighting my brother, it was the full circle storytelling, like that callback of that history of ours was incredible. And then for that to open up, you know, the next chapter of my filmmaking experience, if you will, to be offered a directing job for the Russo's company to direct a feature film for Netflix. The whole thing is like, it's straight out of the storybook. That is amazing. So let's talk about extraction. Did you have to, even though Joe knew what you could do when he gave you the script, did you have to give him a kind of a vision for what you wanted the movie to be

like? Did you have reference points? How did you talk about the movie you wanted to make? We talked a lot about extraction. The three of us actually got Hemsworth, Joe and I on infinity ward in game, a lot of what we wanted to feel to be like kind of movies we were referencing, you know, like some like bullet or Ronan or,

you know, those older movies that kind of the Steve McQueen style, cool of a guy that doesn't say much and has a limited backstory, but has just this, I don't know, charisma that Hemsworth possesses. And, but having like a nitty gritty in there, you know, feeling to the movie. So I did, I'd pull images and I would share them with Joe. We'd talk about locations and they sent me actually to scout. It was in between shooting Infinity War and Endgame, which we shot back to back. So while everyone was on hiatus, they had 10 days in between the movies to do whatever, I was shipped off to India and Bangladesh to location scout and, you know, take a bunch of photos and see the space just see if it felt doable see if it had the right feel and immediately upon arrival not only was it extremely hot and i was sweating bullets but it was you couldn't look in any direction and not see something that was

you know just visually stimulating it was it was a really vibrant place in somewhere that was like, wow, this, this on camera, this place is gonna really have a, you know, a new kind of visceral palpable feeling that you don't get in a lot of movies because, you know, it just has a very unique feeling that part of the world. And so, um, yeah, I was sharing photos of places I saw, we were getting all kinds of ideas for action set pieces. And it was a very great groundwork script, was a great blueprint, but we

were always kind of trying to tweak things based on what we saw and try to just make the best movie. And Joe was very collaborative in that process. Was there anything once you were sitting in the director's chair that was surprising to you? Because you've done so many jobs on a set, but for the first time, were you like, oh oh i didn't realize i had to do x yes i didn't realize as a director how many freaking questions you get asked and have to appropriately answer in a 24-hour period it was absolutely insane and it made you gonna think back and go wow i you know, sometimes when I was very insistent with, you know, a director of like, I need my answers now. Now flipping that on its head, you know, be like, I understand now much better what they were going through and how much they had on their plates. You're like a specialized switchboard operator.

You've got so you're plugged into so many different departments. So and you have to you know you'll be in the middle of a dramatic scene you'll cut it's like all right we're gonna you're gonna you know turn around we got that coverage great and we're gonna turn around now on this side you just finished talking to your dp you're telling your actor we're gonna make these changes great you're in this creative moment and as soon as like that's all you turn to go back to the monitors boom three people are waiting there special effects wanting to know hey like how many holes do you want on the red car and what side what placement do you want how far apart how big do you want this thing to look and you're like what scene is that you're like oh it's scene 73

we're shooting it on the bridge like great what are we shooting that it's like oh it's three weeks from now great and you have to unplug from the scene you're in and plug into that and you're okay i want this many and i'm there and. And you know what? Make the car green. And they're like, okay, great. And they run off. And whatever you say there, they're going to go do that. So you have to be sure that you have thought this through and prepared, and you know your story inside and out. Because yeah, you could say, hey, I want it to be green and make it four holes.

And then you get there, and now the car is green, and there's four holes. And if that's not what you wanted, like that's what you got. So you got to just be in constant communication with every department. And it was, it was really an exercise in, I guess, mental discipline, being able to filter the questions and kind of set up a, you know, a hierarchy of like, all right, I can't, you know, can't do this right now do i have time can i get back to you when i have either a more fully fleshed out answer or when i'm not in the middle of this scene it was just a balance of because you want to help i i want to answer everyone's question right away but as as soon as that kind of starts to make your current moment suffer like if you're if you're distracted then you gotta you gotta put that aside and focus on the now because

that's all you know three weeks from now it't exist. Right now, this scene, right now, this moment with the actors, that's what exists. So it was a great exercise in mental discipline and balance and reminder to be in the moment, but also how much preparation it takes to be a film director. I'm curious about the preparation that goes into, I mean, there are two just absolutely incredible set pieces in this movie, the sort of the extraction itself and that 13 minute stretch that comes in the first half of the movie. And then, you know, the sort of the finale of the movie on the bridge. I know this is based on a graphic novel, but how, I mean, how much of that has to be designed before you guys start making the film? And is that a big part of your responsibility as well to say, here's how we're going to draw this execution? Definitely is, uh, that definitely is a huge part of the job of the director is you have to have the vision.

Everyone's looking to you and saying, what do you want this to look like? What do you want to happen here? Now there's times this is, you know, it's the reason I was hired as a second unit director or as a stunt coordinator. The other people are going to lean, directors are going to lean on their department heads for certain things. You know, like I'm not always going to be, have all the best answers because my mind is so, you know, I've got so many things going on. I might say, hey, you know, stunt team, what do you guys think? Or let's work on something here and bring me back some options because I've got to prepare this next scene for the next day or whatever. But ultimately, the more prepared you are for every sequence,

the more opportunity for success that you're affording yourself. Because if you don't go in with a blueprint, you don't have the ability to improvise because you have no clue what you're doing. But if you go in and you say, hey, you've met with everybody and you've talked it out and you have a vision, you've communicated it. Now, when you get there, you have the ability to, you know, hopefully make things better. So for example, in the middle of the water, we were, it was just, you know, action, action, action. We were really pushing it. We even, and I don't, don't know if you remember that moment, but we, when you run up on the stairs and he pops out on the roof and see the helicopter and he has that

moment with the kid where he says like he goes hey kid you trust me and the kid's like no and he says good he throws it across the roof that moment was improvised meaning that wasn't because you know the wonder wasn't in the script i had i had to kind of write and design that which took you know three or four months to kind of conceive and rehearse and get ready but then on the day we had a plan but the stunt team had we had a whole nother action scene on the roof it's a whole nother fight with the cops coming through like you know really cool stuff like through all the the sheer sheets on the roof and falling downstairs and this big crazy thing but when we got there we were you know talking with chris and the team were like you know

what we just came off of a huge action piece on the bottom we when we're about to go into another huge piece what if we use this moment to breathe a little bit and infuse a little you know a little more character stuff and let's make a let's make a moment out of this and let's let's stop and so we did we cut out all that fight stuff we said we hey chris like what do you you know here what's this moment what what feels right and it's like said, we, Hey Chris, like, what do you, you know, here, what's this moment? What, what feels right. And it's like, Oh, but we're talking about trust. Like, you know, you get Joe on the phone. Hey, what's a good line for this? You know?

So we just start talking about it and we improv improv, a very meaningful moment in that water, but not improv in like, you're just making it up. You're so prepared that you have, and you know your story and characters so prepared that you have, and you know your story and characters so well that you have the ability to improve upon the plan. That's what I kind of call improv in that scenario. And so, yeah, sequences like the one-er and the bridge sequence without an amazing amount, an extensive amount of planning and preparation are absolutely recipes for disaster

i i love the the one or in particular i'm sure you've heard that a lot since since the movie came out but i mean i feel like people have kind of grabbed onto that sequence the way that they grabbed onto you know sequences from the raid where they're just like this kind of instantly entered the hall of fame of action sequences and i was it was interesting like i checked out on your instagram that you showed uh the behind the scenes the making of that specific moment that you were talking about where you know there's sort of the the double is you know the performers doing the leap and throwing the kid and all that that goes into it i was i kind of wanted to ask you about how you

feel about showing how that stuff works because not every filmmaker feels comfortable showing people how they do the things that they do but i like as somebody who loves this shit i was so interested to see you really kind of pulling the curtain back on that stuff yeah above all and and before anything else i'm a fan of movies and the process of making movies i love behind the scenes stuff like the reason you know i i it was hilarious because we all kind of you know we're smacking our heads and like cursing when we saw the some of the featurettes for uh 1917 because you're like you sons of guns you we were gonna do the you know the big one but

you know they they definitely beat us it was as amazing like that movie's amazing i can't say enough amazing things about it very different from ours which i thank gosh it's like a different enough that we you know it doesn't seem like a derivative attempt but i loved watching those behind this like i want to know like how did you do that and then and so for for me as a fan to there's part of me that goes oh man by doing this now the you know you know the magic trick and now it's no longer a magic trick and now the pressure is on now you're going to come up with another magic trick but that's also part of the fun and part of i think what is great about movies is if you know if nobody if the first steadicam was invented and then nobody shared it cinema would not be moving forward like if nobody if nobody

you know taught somebody else how they do certain techniques or, or reveal it, you're just being in a way just being selfish. And you're saying, I have no more good ideas. I'm going to hold onto this one so hard because it's the all I got and you can't have it. I'm, I don't, I don't want to be that way. I want to be like, Hey, look, you know, this is what we did. If you you got if there's people out there want to go do that and do it better great that is would inspire me them to have to step up my game the next time and i this kind of friendly i don't know i say rivalry but inspiration amongst you know filmmakers i think is healthy because it you know there's so many times that I look at things that Chad and Dave have done, and I go, those mother—I've got to step up my game.

Then you see how they do it, or they tell you, and you're like, oh, that's clever. That inspires you to try something, and then hopefully people that see this can be inspired to do something even better. For me, it's not about holding on to having the best action sequence ever hopefully somebody else makes a better action sequence because then it just keeps making cinema better and keeps driving the art forward and to innovations and to like new things and i i think that's part of why it's happening because we have this desire to to learn and uncover like how did how did how they do this trick and now that the social media is out there and people can see these things

i think it's kind of cool i remember gosh if i had had access to that kind of stuff when i was you know um you know in film school or growing up like there was no youtube there was no like it you know instagram it was just you had to resource up and look, go to the library and, and find, you know, old footage or film or, or VHS. And, you know, there's a, there's a beauty in that too, having to dig and really search for something where it's not right at your fingertips, but there's also this kind of amazing immediacy with, uh, media and technology now that I hope drives our, um, our art form forward very quickly and into just more and more beautiful artists creating amazing cinema. Yeah, I wanted to ask you sort of related to that about fight design and what goes into that. And you said that that's sort of your background specifically. And I noticed that there was a

clip of Hemsworth kind of doing some choreography with someone on your Instagram too. I mean, can you just talk about that process and how you do that and how you keep those things new and creative? Do you have to have an encyclopedic memory of every fight sequence in movie history to feel like you're doing something new in that context? That's a great question. A great topic. You could do podcast after podcast on this, in my opinion. But I think the important thing to keep things fresh is to be aware of, you know, the different amazing masterpieces that have come before you. Because you don't want to be derivative or steal, but also you can only punch and kick in so many ways. I think the difference then becomes who's doing it, what's the reason they're doing it, and then how do you capture it with the camera?

So nothing we did fight choreography wise in my opinion what i mean as much i love the fight team michael lair daniel stevens like travis gomez all these guys amazing but and that's not downing what we did in any way it's just it's not overly complicated or revolutionary necessarily it's just we we stuck with which i you know asked them to do which stick with the character and how we're going to portray his fighting style true to who he is and true to the story not just trying to come up with some cool crazy thing because we can like what's what's true to the character true to the story what can chris hemsworth perform well and make you know make him look good and then how are we going to capture that in a unique way? For me, action needs to, and fight stuff specifically,

needs to be about story and about character and then also have sort of a musical rhythm that oftentimes is dictated by editing and sometimes destroyed by editing, in my opinion. So in a wonder, you don't have that editing opportunity because it's all on camera. So it's really important to find what is the rhythm? When do the pauses come in? Because it is like a piece of music. You're building in your rests and your surges and your ups and your downs.

And I think that I think I've learned or, you know, in no way am I even at the, you know, top level and my opinion of fight designers. I just, I try to, I try to keep up with the guys like Chad Stahelski, Dave Leach and their teams. And, you know, I've been on their teams and I've tried to keep up with their expectations, but I, I'm always, I feel like I'm always trying to keep up, which is a cool feeling because it always, you you've always got somewhere to go so i i'll never feel like i've arrived at any kind of you know level of um achievement in that regard but what keeps me going is the i don't know this the musicality and rhythm and the the feeling you get when you

watch it that's kind of how i know like gonna take yes you want to get the moves right but sometimes there's this great rhythm to the feeling of the fight when the move isn't perfect, but it just has a great feeling. And so you pick a take that wasn't perfect, but it had the right feeling. And then it's all about a feeling. feeling that I had when I would watch Jackie Chan do a fight scene or the feeling I have when I watch a John Wick fight scene or something from the raid, the things that inspire me or that push the action genre forward. So it's chasing that, kind of trying to replicate or create your own feeling that gives you as an audience member, this excitement, this, uh, this movement, this, uh, you know, it's hard to describe, but it's a feeling that, uh, only through action. I feel you can achieve that. And that's, that's what I'm going for through an action sequence is to evoke that feeling in the audience. I feel like you, you announced yourself. I feel like to leech and

Stahelski as competition with this and a lot of ways. I'm curious what it's been like, just a couple more questions for you, what it's been like to have so many people see this movie. I don't know if you knew it was going to be a Netflix movie when you guys were making it, if that had been confirmed yet, but obviously, not just given the circumstances

of the world, but the way that Netflix reaches so many people, it's pretty crazy for a directorial debut to be seen by this many people. Like, have you been, what do you make of that experience? This is overwhelming. It's like, uh, you know, it's, it's kind of crazy happening now because the it's, I can turn it on and off. Literally, if I don't turn on my phone or open my computer, I I'm out here on my property in California and I, you know know the birds don't care trees haven't

changed like it's all just it's all the same but see so in a way it's interesting so it can control the overwhelming nature of it but what's amazing about it is is the platform that we did know we were making the film for um when we because when netflix you know signed on to put up the money and to produce the movie we were all extremely excited when netflix you know signed on to put up the money and to produce the movie we were all extremely excited because netflix you know everybody always saying like streaming is the future well the future is here streaming is now and that's how most people are consuming their media even when before the craziness that we're you know wrapped up in right now the majority of people are consuming their media on devices like their phones, computers,

or home TV, home theaters. So it was less about all this in the future. Like this is right now. So we were all very excited to participate in something that was current and something that had the potential to immediately upon release, reach a worldwide audience in their homes.

And it's really fascinating because it's kind of, I was talking about this with one of the awesome execs over there at Netflix, and we were discussing how most movies, we remember movies in the cinema, but it was at home on our vhs tapes or beta or you know whatever or dvds where you fell in love like a deeper appreciation of the love for movies and we talked about you know the the vhs that i wore out if jackie chan movies if i had only experienced them in the cinema i would not have had the chance to go back and study them to to really fall in love with this these movies and netflix gives you that kind of, you know,

I hear people that have watched Extraction four or five times already. And to me, that's crazy. But it's amazing in that if you like something, whatever that may be, whatever, you know, genre or movie, you have the ability to just watch it again and study it and break it down and become a student of film immediately. And that was something that struck me as a very you know significant um kind of property of this of this really you know medium releasing a movie

and uh in that way but could could we have seen it being this popular not not you know for me not a million years i hoped i mean i knew it would be kind of polarizing some people were going to love it some people were going to hate it just because the nature of it would be kind of polarizing. Some people are going to love it. Some people are going to hate it. It's just because of the nature of action. And we kind of, we were doing no, we didn't pull any punches. Like we went for it. We committed to the story and we just really went for it. So some people automatically aren't going to be on board, but the overwhelmingly positive response around the world has been unbelievable.

And I'm very thankful that people have, you know, been so kind and to watch the movie and to to really enjoy it at least so they say the ending of the movie is a little bit suggestive and opaque about tyler rake's future obviously there's been some talk about whether you guys are going to do another one what's the what can you tell me about that well i can tell you now, since Joe Russo said it first, it's official. There is another extraction movie in the works. Joe has signed on officially with Netflix to write another movie. Now, what that is, whether that is a sequel or a prequel or something else in that ending, the ambiguous ending, was to leave room, one, to represent hope for the kid. However you look at it, however you interpret that last shot, it represents to everyone, I think, hope was the idea. Was it hope of something? Now, some people hoping for another movie.

And where that goes, then, is what's exciting. We've been talking about it. There's a lot of different stories that have been pitched and ideas that have been shared. So we're going to spend the next couple of months narrowing those down, finding the best version of that story, whatever it is, whatever direction it goes, and then trying to do something that would be worthy of, you know, the title. Sam, you mentioned that it's easier than ever to see movies because of Netflix and streaming and everything like that. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Are you watching anything right now? What's out in the world?

Yeah. I mean, what's funny, it's, I try to watch movies, you know, as much as I can. But recently I've been going back because my writing partner and I are working on a screenplay and we're just trying to see movies that we've left in structure and in the same genre. I watched it recently, and to me it's almost the perfect movie for a number of reasons.

It's not new, but The Mask of Zorro. Oh, yeah. Because Martin Campbell, yeah. Banderas and like, um, sir, Anthony Hopkins, Catherine Zeta-Jones, like there, I hadn't seen it in a long time. I grew up watching it, loved it when it first came out. Didn't, you know, didn't know why. I just thought it's great entertainment, but didn't know why. But now seeing, seeing that like the structure and the setup and the character development and

like the, the action it's, it's all driven by character it's it's fun there's stakes like it it's really it hits all of the the beats and does it in such a fun way i really my appreciation for martin campbell has soared through the roof i mean yeah he did like casino royale and he's just there's another in, in my opinion, that's the kind of bar that I, you know, I'm not there yet by any means, but someday I want to make a movie that people look at and go,

wow, that movie, you know, made 22 years ago. And it still holds up and inspires me to make better movies. It's a great answer. Sam, congrats on the success of Extraction. I appreciate you doing this. Thanks, Sean. I appreciate you guys having me. It's been great answer. Sam, congrats on the success of extraction. I appreciate you doing this. Thanks, Sean. I appreciate you guys having me. It's been a pleasure.