The Big Picture - ‘F1’ Is a Fast, Fierce Blockbuster Throwback, With Joseph Kosinski! Plus, The Future of James Bond.

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

Sean and Amanda start the show by reacting to two huge news headlines from this week, with Denis Villeneuve set to direct the next James Bond film and Aaron Sorkin set to write and direct a sequel to ‘The Social Network’ (1:38). Then, they get behind the steering wheel to discuss Joseph Kosinski’s highly anticipated action blockbuster ‘F1,’ starring Brad Pitt. They talk about how the electrifying filmmaking displayed throughout the racing scenes makes the film worth the price of admission, acknowledge some of its noticeable flaws, and hypothesize whether or not it will perform well at the box office (23:00). Later, Sean is joined by Kosinski, who discusses why this was the most difficult shooting environment he’s ever experienced, how he feels about the major studios' relationship to the theatrical experience at large, and much more (1:12:26). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Joseph Kosinski Producer: Jack Sanders This episode is sponsored by State Farm®️. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.®️ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, except we did 120 songs. And now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts, 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, J-Lo, Kanye, sure. And now this show is called 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s.

Wow, that's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me, that's 60 Songs That Explain the 90s colon the 2000s. Wow. That's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me, that's 60 songs that explain the 90s colon the 2000s, preferably on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture Conversation Show about Vroom Vroom. Today on the show, we are in the driver's seat of the new summer blockbuster F1, starring Brad Pitt as an aging race car driver called in for one last job.

It is directed by Joseph Kozinski, he of Top Gun Maverick fame. He's also on this show as a guest. This movie, much like Top Gun Maverick fame. He's also on this show as a guest. This movie, much like Top Gun Maverick, also produced by Jerry Bruckheimer. It is a big, loud, noisy, fun movie that we'll talk about on this episode. Also stick around for my conversation with Joe, very smart guy, a technician and filmmaker of the highest order.

We're gonna get into the movie, but there's been an incredible raft of news. Just insane, big picture, concentrated news the last couple of days. Target it right to us. Yes, so I have decided to start with what I think is most relevant. And we'll get to what you believe is most relevant next. Maybe it's like, maybe it's Big Tent and then Big Emotions.

OK, so Big Tent is we have a filmmaker attached to the new James Bond film, which is now in the ownership of Amazon MGM. The Eon Group, the Broccoli family, they've sold James Bond off. We've been waiting to find out what Amy Pascal and David Heyman, the producers of this new Amazon branded franchise, will do.

And they hired Denis Villeneuve. He of Arrival fame, Sicario... Yeah, lead with Arrival fame, Sicario. Yeah, lead with Arrival. Two Dune films. Blade Runner 2049. Arrival is my favorite. I think it's a masterpiece. Enemy. A movie that's important to me.

On Sunday, Prisoners. Which is the one with the spider? That's Enemy. That's a wonderful film about living in Toronto and being divided as a man. Denis, obviously one of our favorite directors. I feel Chris Ryan's spirit in the room with me now. He is perhaps the number one Deni fan. This news is fascinating to me in a variety of ways. I have a million things to say about this,

but I wanna know immediately your reaction to that news. Good for Bond and fine with me for Deni. I know that there are some people who feel that this is another, what, three to four years of Dune Villeneuve tied up in franchise filmmaking. And this is a person who has made original and very exciting films that mean a lot to us, whether you are a Sicario person, an enemy psycho,

or like see the truth and know that a rival is the one. Sure. But, you know, he's been making Dune for five or six years now. You add on a bond that is like 10 years and the prime of his making life devoted to... IP. IP, other people's ideas. I happen to think he's great at other people's ideas. And it's sort of like the old side

about like New York Times columnists where like, I don't think we should have them at all at this point, but if you do have them, they should just, like they should be on a rotation. At some point you run out of column ideas. I don't like, how many enemies has it got in his bag? This is exactly where I'm gonna go. I'm like, we got enemy and it was great.

We got Sicario and it was great. You know, at the beginning of Villeneuve's career, he was the author of a lot of his films, you know, Maelstrom and Anson Di and Polytechnique, he wrote these movies. Those are very good movies, but they're very serious dramas for the most part. They're not what he became famous for,

which is movies that were ultimately written by other people like, you know, Taylor Sheridan, like, you know, Arrival is based on a short story by Ted Chiang. Like, Blade Runner, of course, is based on Blade Runner. Dune is based on Frank Herbert's Dune. So he's very comfortable... Yeah.

...working with screenwriters and with adaptable worlds. And has been building toward this, like, in his own work for some time and adding, you know, layers of difficulty, adding scale, adding all the things. Like, let's go for it. He is, if not the best, one of the very best Big Ten filmmakers. We're going to talk about that with Joe Kaczynski in F1. And there's like a very small short list

of people who you'd want to be running a $300 million bond movement. Right. So the elephant in the room here, or like the Oppenheimer in the room, is of course Chris Nolan, who was sort of in discussions and is like a British filmmaker and is the signature Big Ten filmmaker of our generation. I would have liked to see it.

I would have too, but a piece of news came out in Matt Bellany's newsletter last night that I think is relevant to the Nolan conversation. I'm sure they at least approached Nolan. Nolan seems to be in good standing with Universal right now. They're making the Odyssey after the incredible success of Oppenheimer. Probably would have been hard to pull him out of that studio in the first place. But in addition to that, Denis now, it was announced, does not have Final Cut. Christopher Nolan won't make a movie without Final Cut.

And if that... I'm just speculating. But if they even talk to him at all, I'm sure he would have said, I'm either getting it or nothing. Denis not getting Final Cut's interesting. But it's not surprising. Bond is really, really important to Amazon and to movies and no directors ever had final cut in the history of James Bond. Eon always did. So, I think that's... It's not ideal. I would always want the artist

to be able to make exactly what they want to make. But that's not really realistic. It's James Bond. It's not a personal statement about the corrosive nature of the human soul in the 21st century. It's about a guy who drinks martinis and fucks hot women. Like, this is... It's James Bond. Also in Amy Pascal, we trust. And she is also notably very good at carefully handling IP,

like little women and like Spider-Man. She's just really good at that stuff. So, I'm very happy for her. The other thing to consider, very simply, is that Denis Villeneuve automatically, the minute he steps onto the set the first day, is the best director in the history of the Bond franchise. There have been some good directors. There have been some very steady hands over the years. In the 60s and 70s, it was much more sort of like capable figures who could be guided by the producers of the

films. Sam Mendes, you know, upended this a little bit. Carrie Joji, Fukanaga. There have been some good filmmakers in the last few years. But, you know, upended this a little bit. Kari Joji, Fukanaga, there have been some good filmmakers in the last few years. But Dini is like, in my opinion, a cut above. So that in and of itself is pretty exciting. I think it's great, again, for Bond, and I do care about the Bond franchise. And if you give me like a really dark, messed up,

nihilist version of Bond with like a hot man in the center. I'm like, I'm open to that. They need to go somewhere new with it. So one thing about that is, I'm very curious what the tone is gonna be. That is some speculation because Denny's movies are often stormy. Sure.

There are elements of humor in all the movies. I would point specifically to Stilgar in the Dune movies as like a source of comic relief, even though he's a zealot. Right. So I think he can do that sort of thing. You don't want it to be too serious. Too serious can, I think, be a little deadly for this franchise.

Yeah, no, I think that's true. It needs to have some self-awareness. But in the same way that like the ingenious thing that the Sam Mendes movies brought to it was, like, the empire in decline, or the end of empire, and there was something just, like, about Bond getting older and what it means in that moment.

And I... So you need some sort of take of, like, what this very antiquated character is actually, like, still doing. And I think just, like just a guy operating in the shadows doing a really illegal shit that no one wants to talk about, that's very ugly. Like Sicario but Bond, you know, it's highly... If that's what it is, that's very exciting.

Totally. That would be really cool. I don't know how pop that is, but as far as movies, that would be really sick if they went that way. And we'll see if he actually does have a part in... You know, he worked on the story for Dune, the adaptation, but, you know, his screenplay credits, it's been a long time since he actually wrote a movie. Let's quickly do who the next Bond will be.

Because I think the order of operations in terms of importance for these movies is screenplay, filmmaker, and then actor. You gotta have... Wait, are you doing like... The top, the most important thing is who is Bond. Yes, okay, good, I agree. So we have betting odds that are out right now.

Around who is it, I'm gonna read them to you in order from lowest to highest. Okay. At 18 to one, Josh O'Connor. That, no. Sorry, like I had to like stop and think for a minute of like, are you talking about the same Josh O'Connor who was Prince Charles and...

Yes. I love him so much. I think he's wonderful. I want, like, a long and storied career for him. I don't think Josh O'Connor in a Denis Villeneuve bond makes any sense at all. Okay. Do you know the name James Nelson Joyce? He is at 16 to 1 right now. He's an English actor.

Okay. Don't, but I'm Googling, you know? He was most recently in A Thousand Bl't, but I'm Googling, you know? He was most recently in A Thousand Blows, which is a Hulu series about, I think it was about bare-knuckle boxing, starring Steven Graham. He usually plays a tough guy. That's kind of his thing.

So he's on this list. That this is coming from Bet 365, by the way, these odds. At 14 to one, Dua Lipa's husband, Callum Turner. I like it, fiance. Please respect their listing. Callum Turner. I like it. Fiance. Please respect their... Sorry. Fiance. Listen, it's not... The wedding hasn't happened yet. I wish them well. They're in love.

That's great. And they're traveling. Did you ask them if they're in love? And having the gronies. They make it very clear all of the time. I think it's great. Okay. Once again, 100% behind Dua Lipa and all of her pursuits, and also she should have an Oscar.

Okay. At 12 to 1 is Harris Dickinson. I am... I... I don't really have words right now when you say that. It's like, I feel a little squishy inside. I don't think there's any chance this is gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. He's a Beatle. He's tied up for the next five years. And it also kind of seems like...

He is a guy, um... That's enough of the machine for him, the Hollywood machine. I agree. That seems like as IP as he'll get. Is he playing John? No. Yes, he's John. He's playing John? Yeah. And Maskell is Paul. He's a little tall for John. Is he not? Well...

Not a little tall for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what are you going to do? You're quivering right now. He's really powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what are you gonna do? You're quivering right now. He's really powerful. Did you see that they're doing, for some reason,

they're doing another audiobook of Pride and Prejudice, and he's gonna be Darcy? You make it sound like I know that there's a legendary audiobook about Pride and Prejudice. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know that there is, like, a canonical audiobook. How can I steer you back onto the F1 track of this podcast? Can I get you back? You started this and then you said,

Harris Dickinson is James Bond. Well, you know, if anyone is listening, I would respond to it, that's all. The good news is, no one is listening. At 12 to 1, Aaron Pierre. He most recently of Rebel Ridge fame. He would be really good. Obviously long speculation,

should there be a Bond who is not a white guy? Yeah. I'm a little dubious of that. That would be pretty good. Yes, obviously long speculation. Should there be a Bond who is not a white guy? Yeah. I'm a little dubious of that. That would be pretty dramatic that Amazon would actually make that choice. But you never know. And Pierre, obviously, really, really talented actor. I think the next thing he's going to be in is Lanterns, which is the Green Lantern TV show from Damon Lindelof, starring him and Kyle Chandler,

which I know is really high on your list for 2026. Ten to one, Jack Loudon. Jack Loudon is Saoirse Ronan's husband. They're expecting, congratulations. They're expecting what? A lovely day? Some Oscars, maybe, finally. Well, we'll see.

What happens if Loudon wins before Saoirse? Will that break up the marriage? No, I don't think so. This is the kind of searing commentary we do. I think that she has evolved. And also, she knows what's coming for her. You know, I don't think she's even... Maybe kind of searing commentary we do. I think that she has evolved. And also she knows what's coming for her. OK. You know, I don't think she's even, maybe she's 38,

but she's had like five nominations. Can we go from blonde to blonde with Bond? Craig to Loudon? Um... Is it Loudon or Lowden? It's Loudon. I have said Loudon, but you know, I'm not an expert on the regional...

uh, pronunciations. OK. 10 to 1 James Norton. Another square jaw, handsome English actor. Yeah, I think he and Lily Allen were seen commutaling in a respectful way at a music festival that's not glass and berry recently. It's like living with the personification of the Sun newspaper.

It's amazing, the information that I get from you. 11 to 2, Henry Cavill. I don't know. Superman, the man from Uncle. I'm rooting for him, but as a person in life, I don't think we can do it. John Mark of Mission Impossible Fallout fame. And also what was the Guy Ritchie movie with him and... Yeah, the man from Uncle.

Oh, sorry, you already said that. Who was the other guy? Army Hammer. Army Hammer, yes. Why is Army Hammer not on this list? I don't think we can bring another. He's got too many franchises. He's also like the Witcher or something. He is the Witcher. What's going on there? Well done. Yes. You really came in hot today. Good job. Five to two, Theo James. Oh, I like it. I like it. This makes the most sense to me.

Yeah. And he's like been training in the Guy Ritchie mines for a little while. Yeah. I think this is what's gonna happen. Pamuk from Downton Abbey. We knew when. That's right. I forgot he was Pamuk. That was blazed on John Televiz. Is he dead? He died in like the first episode. It's spoiler alert for Downton Abbey season one.

He dies in the second episode in Lady Mary's bed. And then they got to drag his body all the way back. Who among us would not be slayed by Michelle Dockery? And then he's not the number one contender. The number one contender is Aaron Taylor Johnson at 10 to 11. So he is the odds-on mega favorite to get this job. I mean, he's been taking meetings forever.

But he was also taking meetings, like, before the regime change. Yes, when it was still the Broccoli family. So I wonder whether it's a little tired now. Aaron Taylor Johnson's 35, most recently, he's been 28 years later. I thought he was quite good at it. I think an actor that we like. Yes.

Very funny and nosferatu. Yeah. Best part of Bullet Train. My favorite part of Anna Karenina? Mmm, no. I think that's really disrespectful to every single person, every other actor, including Keira Knightley. I love Keira Knightley.

He was in the film Craven the Hunter. Sure. I saw that. He shows up in Tenet. He love Keira Knightley. He was in the film Craven the Hunter? Sure. I saw that. He shows up in Tenet. He's great in Tenet. He's really, really good. The temporal piece or movement. He's really, I mean, but this is the thing.

Fall Guy, hilarious. He's really good showing up, you know, for about a third of the movie. And you're like, oh, I'm so glad to see him. Okay. So it's sort of like a proto-Rafael Fiennes thing, but can he hold the center of the screen? He did in the Kingsman. Yeah. I mean I get it. He did in Kick-Ass. No thanks. He did in Godzilla. Okay. You see where I'm going with this. I like him. I like him too. You know James feels weirdly more likely even though the betting markets don't think that

way. But this is pretty important. Other names that have been floated around, some I know, some I don't know. Patrick Gibson, don't know who that is. Roger Jean-Page. Sure, no. Sorry. Respectfully.

Idris Elba, getting a little long in the tooth. Yeah. Although old Bond has been suggested. If you want to do like old, you know, jaded Bond, I would love it. Like the Le Carre Bond would be an interesting choice Paul mescal I don't think that's gonna happen no Jonathan Bailey Not impossible not impossible I'm gonna have to think through the flip-flops some more you know and then two very interesting

I don't know if James Bond wears flip-flops. I don't think so either Tom Holland No, too short Superman like again. I don't think if thank you. Sorry Tom Holland Superman No. Too short. Superman, like again, I don't think if... Thank you, sorry. Tom Holland's Superman would be interesting. He's six, five foot four. No, I do think that you should only play one superhero at this point. We're updating the Leo advice from no superheroes to one superhero.

Chris Evans has broken that rule. He is Johnny Storm. And you have been rooting him for three years straight. Well, the Chris Evans heads are eating with materialist's incredible success. The last name been root to him for three years straight. Well, the Chris Evans heads are eating with materialist's incredible success. The last name I wanna mention to you is Daniel Kaluuya. I love it.

One of our greatest actors. He doesn't really work that much. Well, if he wants to do this, go with God. Let's pivot to the other meaningful news. Yeah. It was announced this week that there is a film in development being called The Social Network Part Two.

Now The Social Network, a very important movie to this podcast, to our friendship, one of the signature movies of the 21st century. And it is written by Aaron Sorkin adapted from the Ben Mezrich book about the rise of Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Network Part 2 is going to be based on the Wall Street Journal's Facebook Files piece from 2021. Now reportedly, Aaron Sorkin is not just set to write this sequel, but to direct it. There is also no clarity on whether or not Jesse Eisenberg or any of the members of the

original cast would return, just that Aaron Sorkin is coming back to the world of Facebook in these times of 2025. The name David Fincher was not uttered. No. So where do you stand on this news? I am spiraling. I am like, I am, I am, Hillary Clinton tweeted about Barbie,

like Oscar nominations, Matt. Like put it in the newspaper. This is a terrible idea. And I say this, and I say this. I say this to you as someone who loves Aaron Sorkin. I was raised on Aaron Sorkin. A few good men. The West Wing.

The American president. Sports night. Like, let's go. Malice. Malice is great. Yeah. Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip. I did watch the first season of it. The newsroom.

Listen. Being the Riccordos. The rewrite of Moneyball. Yeah, yes. What else did he, what, there was some other movement. Listen. Sure, yeah. And of course, the social network, which is like our generation's citizen kid.

The Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid episode of The Rewatchables. He's really, really important. I listen and I'm there for him. I'm grateful to him. I like possibly owe a debt to him. In terms of, you know, except I really hope my politics have evolved. But anyway, I love Aaron Sorkin.

Did Mitt Romney run on the Democratic ticket? Remind me. That was his idea, right? That was like, he also just got scooped so bad, right? Like, they published that op-ed, which again, I just don't think we should have op-eds anymore. And then, like four hours later, Biden was like, peace, I'm out. So... I guess he did it.

That was a Sorkin-esque bit of dramatic turn. It was Clooney. And then, but anyway, I love him. It was Clooney. A bit of dramatic turn. It was Clooney. It was Clooney. It was Clooney. But anyway, I love him. And what is best about the social network is that you get the peak of Sorkin and you get the peak of Fincher and they complement each other. We've been talking about it a lot recently, right? Because Boyle and Garland, I guess when we did Angerman, we were talking about like Will

Farrell and Adam McCabe, that it is, to bring back the Beatles, like, a Lennon and McCartney thing where... And, you know, Fincher and Aaron Sorkin don't, I think, like, work together in that way, and I would really actually love to be in meetings between them. I think that that should be filmed. I would not. (*LAUGHTER*) But their work and sensibilities bring out

and elevate the best in each other. I agree. In that case, I fully agree with you. Sorkin without Fincher is, at this point in time, you know, a trouble, a tough spot. And Sorkin directing without anyone to mediate him is not where I want to be in 2025. May I read you one sentence from the Deadline Report? Please.

Sources stress that the new film isn't a January 6 movie and will focus not just on the 2020 election, but also Facebook's effect on teens, preteens, violence, and countries outside the US. I would like to open a hole right here so I can crawl into it and die. Like, not only do I just, you know... I don't want the MSNBC dad take on this right now

from Aaron Sorkin with respect without any sort of editing, but also that is deeply unfocused. It's just about the whole world. No, Aaron, pick a topic, pick a courtroom, you know? Like, boundaries are good. I- Absolutely. Hold these together. We're gonna get through this. I told you,

I'm really upset. Yeah, we're gonna get through this. I want the people I believe in to hang on to their greatness and to not sully it by just like being bored and writing too much about January 6th. To me, the biggest issue with this is just that he's chosen to direct the film These are the three films. He's directed Molly's game. Mm-hmm. I like it. It's very flawed trial of Chicago seven Kind of a wet fart being the Ricardo's disaster

Despite you know, like those are Oscar nominated films and they are regarded No being the card is wasn't really because, because remember I delayed the birth of my child to make sure that being the Ricardos didn't get nominated. No, Nicole Kidman was nominated. Oh, she was? Oh, okay. But it didn't get a best picture. It didn't get a best picture, no, which is grateful.

He's not on the prime of his work. And that doesn't mean that he can't come back and make great work. He's obviously a tremendously gifted screenwriter and I don't think I love him as much as you do, but I have a great affection for his best movies. And some of his shows. But I couldn't agree more that, like, I don't...

This is not what I want. And to do without Fincher is insane. It's insane. Do you think Fincher said no? I'm sure. Well, he's just so in bed with Netflix that this would not be a Netflix movie. It'd have to be a Sony movie because the original is at Sony. So... But it does sort of seem like Fincher's just like,

sure, I'll read your script right now to basically anyone. Well, that's true. Honestly, I'm getting really excited about the Tarantino movie. But still am I. I'm really, really open to it. Also, if we got this news, but it was Sorkin writing Fincher directing, I would be doing a little boogie. I would too, but I don't like what you read is what worries me.

It's too expansive. The social network is a character study. That's one of the reasons why it is so exceptional, is that it is tightly focused on this one person who represents something larger about the world that we live in. Trying to like, what does Pakistan think about the world because of Facebook? I don't want to do that. It's the logline of season three of The Morning Show.

Like, this is actually what happens on The Morning Show. But then you don't want to talk about The Morning Show, Jeremy Irons, season four, coming soon. We don't need it, Aaron, because The Morning Show is still happening somehow. Reese Witherspoon's character is in jail. We have to move on. I can't move on.

From the flaming car wreck of the social network, too, to the speed machine of F1. You gotta give me a second to find joy. Okay, let's take a brief second to breathe, and then we will talk about F1. Okay. F1, this is a big-ass movie, man. It is produced, funded by Apple,

the technology corporation that makes my telephone. And also your computer. And my laptop and my AirPods and a great many items in my home. Your TV box? Yes, my set top box. That's right.

I'm an Apple TV user. I'm an Apple TV plus subscriber. No free ads. These are just facts about my life. Morning Show season four coming this fall with Marion Cotillard. Not a consumer of that. We'll talk a little bit about the... And I believe Jeremy Irons...

Wow. ...explaining like conspiracy theories on a... yeah. I mean, Chris Ryan and I have some incredible podcasting in our future. Okay, God bless you guys. I've never really seen more than one episode of The Morning Show and I won't be digging in any time soon. I was very happy to dig into F1. As I mentioned, Joe Kaczynski, who made Top Gun Maverick,

he made Oblivion, he made Only the Brave, he's made Tron Legacy, a number of interesting movies over the last 15 years, directed it, and it's written by Aaron Krueger, who is probably best known for his Transformers scripts. I interviewed him for Michael Bay's story that I actually mentioned to Kaczynski when we spoke. Okay.

But there are a number of WGA credits on this movie. A little bit like wearing the concert t-shirt to the concert, but okay. That's okay. I mean, I think it was relevant to what I asked when you get there. I can get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was trying to draw some connections. It's fine. I saw him leaving as I was walking in, and I was too nervous to say hello hello and I felt really bad about it. He's a very nice man, very tall Joe.

Yeah. This movie stars Brad Pitt, Damson Idris, Carrie Condon, Tobias Menzies, our beloved Tobias Menzies. Looking fantastic. And Javier Bardem. Yeah, also looking fantastic. Let me just say right now, to a person, everyone in this movie looks fantastic.

Just a gorgeous object, this film. Yes, and they are very aware that part of their job, and the movie's aware that part of the job is to make everyone and everything look really, really good. And they all do. Mm-hmm. It's a movie that very clearly reminds me of my youth. There is something in the structure and in the execution of this movie, which is a sports movie, an old guy coming back movie, an underdog story that is very classical.

Very classical Hollywood. Joe mentioned this kind of mythos, the kind of mythic storytelling of the hero, stranger in a strange land. You could also say that by using some of those tropes, it's a bit cliche. It is a bit, I don't want to say predictable, but it is a classic structure that you get a lot of what you're expecting to get.

That doesn't make it bad. I think that actually works in its favor. The movie, to me, only missteps when it's trying to do something you're not expecting and works really well when it's giving you mostly what you want. What do you think about that? I agree. I mean, I don't ever think that, pardon the pun, formula is a bad thing in moviemaking if you do it correctly because, you know, it is like,

what do you do with the structure? And in fact, a recognizable structure can then bring audiences into the movie so that you can go different places and do different things. Probably important to say right now that you and I don't know anything about f1 and there are like a lot of people howling at home and You know find another podcast, but so we were at a bit of a disadvantage watching this movie, which is made like in Concert with f1 the like the corporate during During the Grand Prix races they were filming the movie.

And so there is a lot of knowledge that you either need to have going in or needs to be like quickly and effectively communicated to you through the movie. So that is that's a lot of work that the movie has to do and I think does incredibly well. For us. For us. But if the movie is then also saddled with explaining, you know, some, like, baroque story structure, it's not going to be able to do everything.

So I think the very straightforward, and like, predictable is unfair. I think it's just... Simple, I would say. It's very simple. Yeah. And there's also... I mean, most movies are predictable when you actually think about it. Like, I don't think the mythic structure is a bad comp.

Like, at some point, we're telling, like, four stories over and over again. So, yeah, I found that part very, like, reassuring and helpful and a smart choice. I totally agree. I think it's really insightful the way you point, noting that there's so much information that needs to be communicated to the novice viewer of F1. I have seen maybe one or two episodes of Drive to Survive.

I've seen an F1 race before in my life, but it is not a sport that I have any investment in whatsoever. And so, I actually thought for the most part, the handholding through the world of F1, right, which is sometimes told through Ruben Cervantes, the Javier Bardem character, who is a sort of a, it's a team owner, who's got he's the 11th team in the world of F1. And he's at the bottom of that heap. And he's trying to, you know, get into the top 10 so that he can retain ownership of his club. That's essentially the framework that brings Sonny Hayes, the Brad Pitt character, into the movie. Sonny Hayes, once upon a time, an exciting young F1 driver who has a

somewhat traumatic experience and then leaves the sport and then goes on to all other kinds of racing. When we meet him in this movie, in a thrilling sequence, he is a NASCAR driver. He's at the Daytona 500, and he's waking in the middle of the night to get ready for his run through the Daytona. And he's Brad Pitt, but he's old Brad Pitt. You know, he's, I don't know, I'm not quite sure how old Sonny's supposed to be, but you know, late 50s?

He's definitely up there. Yes, because they are at some point giving historical racing cops, and I think late 50s? He's definitely up there. Because they are, at some point, giving historical racing comps, and I think late 50s is always the age range given. Um, and so we see that he's in a place, and he needs to go to a new place. Ruben comes and finds him at a laundromat and convinces him to join his failing race team and to join up with an exciting but flawed and impetuous young rookie

who's played by Damson Idris. And this was something very interesting about this world that I didn't fully understand, but that Joe communicated very clearly when we were talking and that Mallory Rubin, who is a huge F1 fan, asked me about when she asked me how the movie was. And I said, the racing sequences in this movie are worth the price of admission. They are extraordinary.

We can talk about them a bit in our conversation here. And she said, okay, cool, but does the movie locate that in F1, in some ways, your biggest rival is your teammate? And I said, yes. That is actually, that is ultimately the crux of this story. And Joe said, and he explained it very well, that the reason for that is because

even though you're racing against other drivers, the only person who has the exact same setup that you do is your teammate. You're the only one who's in the same car because these cars are individually built. And so if you want to see a true test of how well you're doing, you've got one other guy who's sitting in the same machine that you are.

And which one is better? Is it you or is it the other guy? Right. Sunny is a 60-year-old man, Damson Idris, mid-20s, hotshot. This movie is produced by Lewis Hamilton, the most renowned F1 driver we have right now. And you can see a little flex of a young Lewis Hamilton in JP. I guess so. You know, like you can see some of the influence of that figure and his experience in this world. And then you can also just see some of that, like, classical structure.

I haven't really asked you the question. Did you like F1? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, this movie, for me personally, as like maybe the world's second biggest Top Gun Maverick fan, or maybe third after my son and Tom Cruise, like maybe in that order. And I was thinking, I'm probably like, I've seen Top Gun Maverick, Maybe third, after my son and Tom Cruise. Like maybe in that order. Sure. And I was thinking, I'm probably like,

I've seen Top Gun Maverick probably like top 50 people on earth, the number of times I've seen it at this point. Top 50 people on earth? Like probably, at least the first half. Sure. Should we hold a contest of some kind? No, no, no, but I mean, I was just,

maybe it's like top thousand, but like I'm up there. Yeah, yeah, I believe you. So, and this bears just a remarkable similarity in DNA to Top Gun Maverick. The director, but also it's like a sports movie, but it's also a Vehicles Go Fast movie. A movie star of the 90s who we have a lot of connection with, but who is like maybe personally like receding from the spotlight or trying to, or entering that twilight phase of that, you know,

nether world of movie stardom, taking on a role that is like maybe echoing where they are in like the industry and in life, and also does have that like the young upstart and the can they still do it. And the beats are there. Even the first 10 minutes, it's a great opening scene, but it is a shot-for-shot remake of Top Gun Maverick. It's like old, hot movie star guy is in a trailer of some sort.

And you see various mementos that tell you about his life before you see him. The first time you see him, you see his bicep and the back of his head rather than him. And then he emerges into like a great field of daring in order to like do some amazing thing. Yeah, there's other things. The other iconographic thing is like grabbing the sunglasses, grabbing the helmet, like the insert shots of all the little knickknacks of his world. Right, exactly. So this movie is not as good as Top Gun Maverick,

but I think I'm the only person in the world being like, can it live up to Top Gun Maverick in this way? And I know that about myself. Otherwise, I think it's absolutely like thrilling, exciting, like classic summer movie. And as you said, I think the racing scenes are amazing. And I do also think as like an explainer or, and I choose this word purposely, advertisement for F1, it's like very effective and it did communicate and help me understand that sport in a different way.

So I hope those people are happy because it worked out. But yes, I liked it very much. Yeah, I liked it very much too. It is a massive act of corporate synergy. You kind of need to know that and if you don't know it, you'll learn it very quickly in the film. Not only is it kind of Apple and F1 working in conjunction to spotlight the

best things, the most exciting things, the most, um, emotionally stirring things about this sport, um, and about the experience of kind of like high stakes competition, but there's all other forces of corporate influence in the movie. I mean, it is, it is a big tense summer blockbuster. It is not a small, you know, look at a man in crisis. Right. You know, and it is, the other thing it's not is Moneyball, even though it has real shades of Moneyball and story structure in Brad Pitt, at least, hoping to get to that level of performance. And, you know, man of a certain age in sports, trying to deal with...

Like, being last place and the forces, you know, of the rest of the sport are all against him. And like, what can he and his like small band of, you know, misfits figure out together? I mean, the biggest let go to Moneyball to me is the fact you know, misfits figure out together. Um... I mean, the biggest let go to Moneyball to me is the fact

that Moneyball is a movie about a young hotshot prospect who never did it, which is what Sonny Hayes is as well. Billy Beane was that as a ball player. And then a guy who has been stuck unable to win the big one. Yes. Those two things, the echoes of Moneyball and the echoes of Top Gun Maverick, are purposeful and work.

Like that's what just works. Well, also that they are... This movie does explain like strategy. It helped me understand why FM1 is a sport. Um... And helped me understand what people are watching when they're just watching What To Me For So Long has looked at like people driving around a track without Joseph Kaczynski's cameras, you know?

So, um, but the strategy even of this team uses some like unconventional methods, if you will, in order to, or like the system is stacked against us. We don't have the car, you know, there's 10 teams, 50 feet of crap, and then there's us, so we have to think differently. Yep. Same thing. It's there. Yeah. It's very much the same structure. And... Let's talk about Pitt for a second.

Yeah. Okay. Not my favorite of his performances. If we're gonna conjure moneyball, I would say, oddly, the biggest demerit of the movie is, I think actually what he brings to the table. And I was watching an interview with him and Will Buxton, the motorsport journalist, who I think was an advisor on this film. And Pitt literally said in that interview,

I was more interested in the racing than in the acting scenes at times. The performance scenes. And you can tell. You can tell. I think he is at his best in this movie when he is Steve McQueen-ing. When he is not being forced to read the dialogue that is conveying the emotional, or lack thereof, of this figure, of Sonny Hays, who's, you know, a taciturn late 50s athlete. You know, he's not... He's not Billy Beane.

He's not a philosopher king of the lower rung of Major League Baseball. There's a representative scene and shot in the film where, without spoiling too many things, he's negotiating relationships and strategies with various people. And he has kind of like an up-close, in-person conversation with this person, where they're revealing their motivations and strategies. And then about five minutes later,

it's revealed that there might be some different motivations or feelings, but the way it's revealed is in a wide shot from 50 feet away of Brad Pitt acting wordlessly towards the other person. And in that moment, he's Brad Pitt. And in that moment, he's nailing it and it's funny and you get all of it. But I would agree that, you know, when, when there are words, it's, I was,

I was surprised. It's kind of odd. I was like, what's going on? He normally can locate this stuff a little more. Yeah. It's funny because we both said it to each other as soon as we walked out, and obviously we really like his movies. It's interesting too because I think he is confronted by Javier Bardem, who is kind of like,

very comfortable in this role. Very comfortable in this world. He is extremely charming and funny and a bit silly. And he fits right in. You buy him as the sort of the lead of an F1 ownership group. An easier job. Javier Bardem has the record of showing up in blockbusters

in the slightly like chew the scenery roles and absolutely chewing them and being the best part of every movie. He is in this. He's also quite comfortable in those suits, which are just immaculately tailored. He looks good. Yeah. I mean, listen, Pitt looks good.

Like, the necklaces and the button down. I am also really here for his press tour style. Have you caught any of that? No. I'm very excited for our jam session together. Okay. It'll be sort of like I'll do a PowerPoint for you in real time and then we can discuss. Okay.

That sounds great. He's been getting off some fits. Okay. And some people have described them as midlife crisis. I have described them as I like it. So that's where we are. That's not really a description, but all right. Fair enough.

I respond to it. Ultimately, this is not a movie about performance. It's a movie about... No. Well, it's a movie about cameras in some ways. Yeah. The racing sequences are the reason to go. There is incredible sound design in this movie.

There is great music. It's kind of a split between... Well, some great music. There's a few originals that are not my favorites. And they keep getting served to me on Spotify because I'm trying to... It's a Ed Sheeran song, it's a Doja Cat song. No, no, for me it's the Tate McCray song. And I'm just like, just because I'm listening to The Giver

by Chapel Road does not mean I want to go here. But there is also, you know, there's Led Zeppelin and Queen. Yeah, that's sick. There's the dad rock stuff that is there. The first 45 minutes I was like, oh, I understand how this movie cost $300 million. And it's because you guys just, you paid $5 million for every song.

It's just loaded. Yeah, this is taking us slightly off course, but there are a couple of moments that I would describe as... Much like Brad Pitt's character in F1. Hey-o. How many of those puns can be stacked into this episode? Quite a few. There's a moment in the Daytona race where Pitt's character is rounding the track triumphantly

and we get a vista shot of fireworks going off as the final moments of Led Zeppelin's whole lot of love are concluding. And I'm like, this is just what it is, man. This is just the magic. This is movies. This is why, if you like blockbuster movies, that's just an awesome fucking blockbuster movie moment. And there's like five or six of them in this movie where you're just like, God, this is

like the hairs on my arms are standing up. It's super exciting, it's fun. But the way that they accomplished it is like pretty crazy how much like Top Gun Maverick, which you don't necessarily feel when you're watching the films, but in this film, they have just built new technology to put you in two perspectives. One, directly in front of the driver's face.

So you can see how they are reacting. And we should note, Dan St. Idris and Brad Pitt did actually drive these cars on these tracks during these races. Not actually during the races, but on the days of the races. And two, the cameras that are mounted on the cars rotate so that you can see the track as they are driving. Yeah. And so the races, which are long, I believe there are 12 total races in the film.

This movie is two and a half hours long. Yes. And it does seem like they were like, well, we spent almost three years at various race courses around the world filming and we're gonna use all of it. I'm glad they did. Me too. It is by far the most compelling part of the movie.

Uh, do you have any experience with race car movies? Well, I've seen Days of Thunder. Days of Thunder, okay. Uh, and I guess I watched, what was the Paul Newman movie? Winning. Winning. I watched Winning in order to, that's the one with the nice scene at the end between him and Joanne Woodward,

where it's like, are they gonna figure it out or are they not, or am I confusing them now? I thought they split up on that one and he's like left with Joanne Woodward's son. Yeah, but then at the very end, I think they have that like. Do they have a reunion moment? Well, it's like you hope they're gonna be reunited. It's they're standing like outside the house, he shows back up.

Even though she cheated on him with Robert Wagner? And he saw it, yeah, with Daddy Wagner and he walks in on it. That was really tough. So yes, I have seen those two. Yes, I've seen the film winning. So that's really two of like 14 total movies that have ever been made about motorsports. There's just not very many movies like this.

And this one, I think it's fair to say is head and shoulders above all the others. Yeah. You know, Days of Thunder is a very cool movie. And I do see Kaczynski working in this, the kind of the tradition of Tony Scott. Right. And also with it's like ridiculous off track moments, including Nicole Kidman as a 22 year old neurologist, maybe 25. What's not realistic about that?

Excuse me. I don't mean to. Because she's a woman. Is that what you Maybe 25. What's not realistic about that? Excuse me. I don't mean to. Because she's a woman. Is that what you're saying? That's so sexist, Amanda. She's Australian, I think. So I have some like medical board questions. Maybe she was a, you know, an early bloomer.

Maybe. Maybe she was in med school at 15. That's in play. Do they have doogie? Is that not possible? Do you think they exported doogie Hauser to Australia? You think that's a reference everyone gets down under? No, I mean, there's no language barrier when it comes to Doogie.

I feel like that plays everywhere. Budapest, Southeast Asia, Australia, sure, everywhere. I think she was a neurologist. If she has another specialty, forgive me. When you're watching a race car sequence, are you thinking at all, how'd they do this or are you thinking I'm inside of the car and I'm having fun? Definitely the latter. I guess this one, maybe by the eighth, I am looking, but I mostly I think how are they

doing this is when they're outside of the car. And I was just always really checking to make sure that it was Brad Pitt or Damson Idris and it often was and they're doing some absolutely terrifying stuff and then they make a point of zooming in and you're like, yep, no facial check, that's Brad. So in that moment, I guess I'm like, maybe not thinking how did they do this, but is this really them? But no, when they're just driving, it is, you know, lizard brain, vroom, vroom. Yeah, I'm kind of both, I think,

because we got so much of it. And there are moments, there are two significant crash sequences in this movie, both of which are very upsetting. The first is extremely upsetting. Awful. And very effective, and obviously there were stunt drivers involved

in those sequences, but those were the times when I was not thinking at all about the kind of mechanics of the movie, but it's hard to not think about the mechanics of the movie because it's so elaborate and so impressively staged that actually being inside of the race, but a little outside of the story, I think is actually a feature and not a bug. I think the sort of inside of the race, but a little outside of the story, I think is actually a feature, not a bug. I think the sort of wonder of the experience of watching the races

is a big part of what is appealing to me about it personally. And especially because, you know, we talked about that hand holding. There's two choices that are made. One is that obviously there are a number of characters who are part of the crew who are constantly kind of explaining the circumstances of the team, of the car. Carrie Condon is somewhat similar to the Days of Thunder character.

She's a former Lockheed Martin... Yes, she's a... ...aeronautics engineer. She's a woman in STEM, you know? Yeah, a woman in STEM, absolutely. She may have also been building machine, like weapons of some kind, unclear. Right, but she gave it up to build cars.

She's lured away by Ruben Cervantes, owner of the Apex team, to build cars. And she is styled as, so, to be almost indistinguishable from Jerry Halliwell, or later years Jerry Halliwell, of the Spice Girls. Who isn't the wife of an F1 driver. Or was, I think. There was a scandal. I don't know. His texts were leaked. He was not behaving the best that he could have. I see. Okay.

Yeah, so... So we come to you for Jerry Hallowell's broken marriage. You know, Jerry Hallowell and Carrie Condon, just two of my gals. So I was very excited to see her in this movie. I really loved the decision to not change her accent. Yeah. Thank you. Thought that was wonderful.

Yes, just let people, it's an international sport. You know, we're collecting, we're bringing everyone together. Fantastic stuff. And she gets to be this kind of load-bearing device for a lot of information in the movie, because she's building the cars, she is talking through the mechanics of how this world works literally.

And then you've got, um... this struggle that the team has to kind of get out of last place. And the way that the movie shows us how they do that, and this is something that I probably should have at least asked Mallory, like... how accurate is this, How plausible is this part? But that Sunny brings some strategic chicanery to bear,

to make, to rise up in the ranks. You know, it's not just about being the best race car driver. That isn't exactly what happens for his character. And I wonder if that is how much of it applies to real life F1. That you are using as much strategy and guile as you are the sort of like concentration and skill around the track, because those sequences necessitate narration and we get narration in the form of two broadcasters who talk us through every race. Yes.

What did you think about that choice? I, I mean, it worked. I understood everything and it did bring me into the stakes. I was like, I don't know how you guys are, how you're going to communicate stakes to me that I actually care about. But because there is that strategic element and because they are explaining, oh, he's doing this because of this. I did like understand this like as a sport with rules and, and and plays basically that you call.

You know, as I found their commentator, all respect to the people of the UK, but how do you stand this on a week-tweak basis? That was really irritating. And I know that's what they do. And I know it has that very specific British commentator, like TV presenter, as they say, vibe. I texted Juliette Lippman, our colleague, and also an F1 fan, to be like,

are they this irritating all the time? And she didn't respond. Wow. But- You got ghosted. She's busy. Okay. But they- Did something happen? Yeah, I don't know.

They were used perfectly. So it worked for me. And I guess it's handholding. I assumed when watching it that a real F1 race is somewhere between getting, like calling the service car like three times, which happens. You know, you would get fined for that. I mean, I know nothing, but I was like, this does seem a little egregious and they even acknowledge that. But with a lot of this strategy and like tires, quote unquote,

I still don't really understand what the various tires do, but now I do know that we have to think a lot about tires. Are they soft? Are they hard? When are you changing them? Are they fresh? I was racing to work this morning. I have some low tire pressure. I was like, oh no, like my tires are like, I don't have the tires.

I don't know if I'm going to get here in time. Do you feel that you have a racer's mentality on the road? Not like you. Okay. But I- I would do very well in F1. I think that you would as well. I have been informed that I am like sort of like a defensive driver with a lead foot.

So I don't know. Maybe, maybe I would excel as well. Interesting. A defensive driver with a lead foot. Did someone use that phraseology to you? Zach, yeah. Okay, your husband. Good.

That's exciting. Um, F1 races usually last like almost two hours. And so the other thing that this has to do is these, these sort of narrator broadcasters have to kind of boil down the essence of a race over time. And so one of the big feats of the movie is just this kind of extraordinary editing approach where it's not just that quick cut insert stuff that we see in the first 10 minute montage.

It's every race needs to basically be six minutes and you need to know everything that's happened throughout the entirety of the race and what the stakes are as you're getting to the end. That stuff is done very well. That's hard to communicate. And it's not just cutting down the announcers, but they're using the reaction shots of everyone in the,

like on the crew. What are we calling, like, the crew, what are we calling like the, the little, the table where Carrie Condon and friends are like the advisory committee? Sure. Sure, that's the executives, we're the executive branch of each. The leader of the pit crew and the tech advisor

are just kind of sitting in there making calls. The director of the team? Yes, the director, yes. She's the tech director, I believe. Yes, but so they're cutting to these people who are also, their reactions are like expository reactions that are pushing things forward. A lot of eye rolling and bulged eyes and,

oh, exhausted. And then there are some VIP observers, namely Javier Rodem and Tobias Menzies, who also get reaction shots and advance the plot in different ways. But it's a lot of people and reaction and just kind of like plot signaling to do all at once at a very fast speed, because at all times you're just trying to communicate velocity.

What did you think about the rivalry between Sonny and Joshua? The Brad Pitt and Damson Idris characters. Did you buy it? Sure. I didn't think too much about it, honestly. I think it makes sense that you bring someone else in and that they're competing against each other and is he gonna take my spot? Is he gonna take my chair?

That stuff worked more to me than the sort of like very deep, almost so proper level, like you know, you got me in a crash. No, you got me in a crash. No, you know, like there, and I understand why they're emotionally like going for that. And there's a speech that the therapist from Ted Lasso

who plays Damson Idris's mom gives, sorry, but that's, I have someone like, oh, therapist from Ted Lasso mid movie, where she, I guess communicates the danger of this and it is very dangerous and you see it too. where she, I guess, communicates the danger of this. And it is very dangerous. And you see- Sarah Niles is the actress's name, yes. Sarah Niles, yes, thank you.

And she gives a very good speech. And I do understand that these are life and death matters, but I did feel like that was communicated better through the actual set pieces than through the plot development. It just makes more sense to me that they dislike each other. I don't know. Do you disagree?

I think it's a necessary component of the story, but I think it's an interesting thing because it works insofar as I as a viewer don't have a relationship with Damson Idris. I don't watch Snowfall. I didn't, I don't really know him. And so I sort of believe him in this world as this hotshot performer. But I think not knowing enough about the dynamics of a team and how much was Sonny being like way out of line versus how much was JP just a petulant prick. Like, there's kind of like a...

There's an emotional gap in that part of the movie that I don't feel informationally while I'm watching the races. And there's an effort to kind of, like, bridge that gap routinely, but it feels way more forced. In general, the emotions are not really at the center of this film. At least in the scenes where two people are in a room.

The emotions are out on the course and when things happen or don't happen. What about between Sonny and Kate? The tech director and the race car driver. Sure. How was their poker? Was that a believable poker scene? They only showed us one hand. Yeah.

So there is a poker sequence in Las Vegas. Right. The evening before a race where racers are just drinking alcohol. I also had this question. That just seems like not a good idea. It does seem like there should be some sort of like, I mean, I know this is very American, and I know that F1 is a less provincial, more international sport, but like, they don't have blood tests or something.

But like at a certain hour before. Uh, I don't think alcohol would be a problem with a blood test, right? Well, not the night before, but like, I don't know. It just seems... I think drugs would be an issue potentially. Um, I just think for concentration, F1 is a sport of concentration. Having a hangover would be... I completely agree.

I, and they were also like partying all hours of the night. Like this, I don't understand this in general. I mean, I know that most professional athletes when they go out, or they're like when they're traveling, they go out the night before. I don't really get it. I also, like I have started following Dua Lipa on Instagram, just, you know, thanks to have the best summer that I can. Thanks for sharing that.

And she talks, she's on tour. And then she's like, talks about all the things she likes to do when she's on tour. I'm like, but don't you have to prepare for your performance? I don't know. I think I would live a more monastic life if I had to, you know, be in these high profile... It's a surprising coming for you,

because you have to come in and perform every day. And you like to have a drink every once in a while. Every once have a drink every once in a while. I don't every day anymore. Though last night I did have a glass of wine during bedtime because we're going through a real not accepting no phase. But yeah, no, for the most part, like I try not to. Have you considered a poker game with your son trying to put him to bed? In a vodka tonic? I think JP enjoyed.

Yeah, I think that stuff's okay in the movie. I thought Sonny and Kate was pretty good. I thought it was a little ridiculous that Kerry Condon was a Lockheed Martin-aeronaut exchange engineer who got, you know, headhunted by an F1 company. That seemed a little much, but I thought their chemistry was good. I bought them together. The scene on the balcony is sort of the one time, and that's when Pitt is given the, like, I almost had it and I didn't get it speech, you know?

And he locks in for that moment, and you're like, oh, yeah. It reminded me totally different situations, totally different movies, but the George Clooney ticket to paradise scene. At the bar. At the bar where you're kind of like, everybody else here. He was focused today.

Yeah, like he knew it was this moment, he found the camera, you know, and he saw God. And that also does set up, I think, an emotional racing moment that really, really works. So I agree with you. But everything else, it felt a little bit like, hey, when are we doing the next race? Yeah.

Yeah. But the racing stuff is so great that it didn't really bother me. I do think that the film isn't a touch long. I agree. It has a few different moments that could be perceived as endings. That are not endings. Sure. Um, the false ending is an increasing concern here in the land of movies.

We're getting a lot of movies that are like, this is over, just kidding. We have a few more things we would like to show you about this story. Uh, but being inside of every race just rocks so much that it's kind of a minor concern. Now, we saw the movie in IMAX. Yeah. And both the sound and the picture were incredible. Obviously, we would highly recommend that people do that.

We also saw it at an influencer event where people cheered every time an F1 person that I didn't recognize came up on the screen. Yes. Did you enjoy that? It was fine. I guess it let me know that there were a lot of F1 people. So if you are into that, perhaps you'll respond to it on the level of seeing like...

I was going to try to pull out someone's name, but I can't remember their names. Max Verstappen? Yes. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. He's a very famous racer. He their names. Max Verstappen. Yes. Yeah. I've heard of him. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very famous racer.

He appears in this film a couple of times actually. Um, that's actually a choice that I really like about this movie, which is that we're in the world, they're shooting at the real races. You feel this Joe described as a festival atmosphere, um, and that every race kind of feels like you're at Coachella or something. Yeah. And that every race kind of feels like you're at Coachella or something. Yeah.

And... but they didn't try to make Lewis Hamilton or Max for stopping, like, characters. Right. They didn't saddle them with the expectation of having to deliver dialogue. Wise. They are opponents in the races, which is cool, and I think adds to the versimilitude. But we don't really spend any time with their teams, you know, we're not like, we're not forced to recommend that this movie is very much located

inside of the Apex team, which I think is a really, really good choice. But you still get to benefit from you're at a real race. I mean, that to me was so astonishing, because we are now fully in the world of like, you haven't seen a real crowd in a movie in, I don't know, 15, 20 years. And I'm sorry, but the fake crowds, the CGI crowds are visible from... Can always tell. It's bad. It's actually really bad.

And so suddenly, to be at a place where you can... You feel that, like, they are there, they just built their own tent next to everyone else's tent. You do feel the energy. It's incredible. It's amazing that they got to do that. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Life is all about choices. For example, what happens when you show up at the movies

and you're not totally sure what you want to see? Maybe Final Destination Bloodlines, maybe Lilo and Stitch. You've gotta make a choice. At State Farm, their goal is to help you make decisions that you feel good about. That's why with the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create a competitive price. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans

that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Let's talk about Tobias Menzies very quickly. This will veer into real spoiler territory. We've just been kind of talking about like the shape and arc of the movie. I wouldn't say we're spoiling the outcome, but to talk about this character, there'll be some spoilers. So he's presented early in the movie as a friendly member of the board.

And the board is starting to turn against Ruben, who owns the Apex team. And he is there as a kind of conduit. He's a bit amused by the addition of Sunny, who is not the first choice to come in as the veteran hand on the team. But, and when he shows up and he has a moment on the track with Sonny, I turn to you and I was like, Tobias Menzies was a good choice. And it was a good choice.

And in that moment, I don't know that I knew exactly where the movie was going when I was like, I get it. We will come back to this guy. This guy is gonna be a part of this story. There's no reason to put this really good actor into this part just to have him pat Brad Pitt on the back. And he does come back later in the movie

when it becomes clear that he is kind of the architect of a lot of the undoing of the Apex team. That from the inside, he's trying to seize ownership for himself so that he can create a more successful Apex team and take it away from Ruben. What'd you think about that late-breaking arc in the movie and Tobias' performance? It totally worked for me.

I think this setup was a deceptively simple setup, which is just the team has to win one race this year, or else the board can sell it. So, I mean, they make it very clear what the objective is, like where the rest of the movie is going to go. And there is almost, to our earlier conversation, like an oversimplicity to the like, okay, well, I guess you're just gonna like keep racing

and keep climbing up the leaderboard. And the last one, you'll like finally do it because that is the kind of movie that it is. So his third act wrinkle was, I thought, funny and also adds another dimension to that race and even to the reaction scenes and who's rooting for who. And... you know, then sets up the nifty thing of like,

oh, we really are actually a team. You know, we all found each other. So, it worked for me. And as you said, he's great. He's so funny in it. He's a very amusing actor. The addition of that, which felt... Kaczynski mentioned that there was a late-breaking change that they made to the story.

I suspect that's what it is. Yeah. And it helps the movie a lot. I agree. Because I think if we were just relying strictly upon the kind of, you know, unsettled rivalry between Sunny and JP and will they or won't they with Sonny and Kate, I don't know if it would have been enough.

And so like adding an extra element of, can they pull this off? And there's actually a force working against them that is not Max Verstappen or, you know, Mercedes or Ferrari or whomever. Then I think it really improves the movie. And like, let's you walk out with a little bit more triumph when we get to where we go. Yeah, it's a nice, you know, because then it, it like, it resets

the the alliances in a nice way. So you get your beautiful moment between all the people. But then the Brad Pitt character can go off and do his own thing. Yeah, what do you think of the little coda, the Baja coda? It's cute. That was great. You know, I mean, it's like him

like not taking the money at Fenway. So once again, like I too love Moneyball, you know? Very similar. Yeah. Interesting. So, because he also said that that was originally the first scene in the movie. Oh, interesting. And then Lewis Hamilton gave him a note that he was like, first scene in the movie. Oh, interesting.

Lewis Hamilton gave him a note that he was like, no, you can't open with that. You need to show him in the environment racing. Good note, Lewis Hamilton. Um, which is great. Cause the beginning of the movie is sick. Um, pretty cool movie. I really liked it. Really, really, really fun.

Yeah. Fun to see in theaters, kind of just your old school blockbuster throwback kind of the film. And I'm hopeful that people do also go see it in theaters. It seems it's the conversations I've been having anecdotally. It seems like people know like, oh, no, no, this is like, this is one of our event ones we're going to go, we'll buy it. They have marketed the hell out of it.

Yeah. Tom Cruise showed up at the premiere in London. Oh yeah. Okay. Well, he's, you know, one other thing that Kaczynski mentioned is that, you know, he almost made a version of Ford versus Ferrari with Brad and Tom. I can't even. Which would have been pretty crazy.

Yes. Nevertheless, how's it going to do? There's been much reporting about the budget of this movie. Yeah. Some say 200 million, some say 300 million. Does it, did Apple pay for it? Does it matter? Apple paid for it. I don't really think it matters that much. Except... Do you think Led Zeppelin gives an Apple movie, like, a cut,

or do you think they make them pay more? Like, a discount rate, or do they make them pay more? If I were Led Zeppelin, I wouldn't give anyone a discount. Sure. I think historically they haven't. Yeah. And you know what? Good. They earned it. I think... I don't care so much about the budget, but I do... I am interested in the performance for a couple of reasons.

One, obviously if Apple is making movies and putting them in movie theaters, that just means more movies are getting made. And more movies, you know, with these kind of sizable budgets. And honestly, Apple, to their credit, has taken a lot of risks on big movies that would be deemed originals, or like adult movies, you know, your Killers of the Flower Moons, your Napoleons. Those kinds of movies getting made is really great. F1 is an original. It's set in a world that is familiar.

Yeah. But is... this is one of the biggest, most expensive original movies ever made. Right. I mean, it's not using movie IP. It is using heavy F1 IP. But I think that if this movie works, that is the new paradigm. That's the thing that I've been talking about, the Barbie thing, which is like, show me something that I know about but in a way I've never seen before. That is the whole game with movies now. So a lot of, a lot of speculation is, is that this movie will do very well internationally because F1 is an international sport.

It's a movie that kind of transcends language in a lot of ways, as we've described here. Um, so this podcast does not transcend, transcend language. We need it here to communicate on a daily basis. In America... Do people care? Will they care? I... I don't know. I mean, there is a huge NASCAR audience

that I don't know whether it's separate from the F1 audience, but you've got, you're like, F1 Netflix people. And I do think, I know Drives to Survive was several years ago, but those people are really in. I think that Brad Pitt does have crossover appeal still. So maybe you bring some NASCAR people, maybe you bring some Brad Pitt people. I, you know, movies are very in right now.

People seem to like go into the movies, and this seems like a good excuse to go to the movies. So I think it'll do pretty well. I don't know if it's Sinners level. This is the first movie since Sinners that I have gotten a wave of, have you seen this? What do you think? Totally same. What did you think?

So that bodes very well. And I don't think it's a movie that's dependent on reviews. No. I don't think that that's like the core demo per se. And I think it more or less delivers the goods. Like it is a movie, I think people will be satisfied walking out of this movie. Yeah, absolutely.

So you're gonna get a word of mouth quality that'll go well. I just, I'm, it's a conundrum. It's a little bit of a, I wouldn't know how to predict how well a movie like this is gonna do in the United States. Academy Awards? Technical categories?

Feels like pretty clearly sound for sure. I wonder about things like... production design and visual effects. And I don't even know how many visual effects are going into this movie. A lot of it feels really on the ground and real. I mean, this seems like it would be stunt design, like, heaven, were that category eligible this time around. For sure. The first crash in the rain, I think, is pretty amazing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, there's a case for editing too. I feel this movie is very, very well edited. So, that, you know, is it going to be in the kind of like, Blade Runner 2049 version? Also, Claudio Miranda, I can't recall if he was nominated for Top Gun Maverick, but he's a cinematographer and he's shot a lot of great movies. He won for Life of Pi some years ago, and he's very well respected.

So there's definitely a world where Miranda might get a look too. And then this movie goes onto this extremely short list of motorsport race car movies that people think are good. Like let's just set aside The Fast and the Furious for a minute. That's street racing. Don't really think of it in the same way. Days of Thunder, Le Mans, the Steve McQueen movie

from the seventies, winning, which you mentioned, the Paul Newman film, which then led to Paul Newman pursuing a career as a race car driver in his late 50s? Yeah. 40s maybe. 40s? Okay. I think the first time he raced in competition, he was like maybe even in his 60s. Wow. Grand Prix, the James Garner film from the 60s with Toshiro Mifune. Rush?

Yeah. Which is a bit underrated. I have seen Rush also. Yeah. It's not on my... I had forgotten that I saw it. It's a Ron Howard movie. Very early Chris Hemsworth. Chris Hemsworth, his first... One of his first big roles post Thor.

Right, but to me at least, I... Maybe I had seen Thor, but I remember seeing Rush and being like, who's this guy? What's going on here? And the answer was he's Thor, but you know, whatever. But that's a film that is based on a true story. And also with Daniel Bruehl as Nicky Lauda, the F1 racer. Pretty good movie. I like that movie.

And then what am I forgetting? I mean, Speed Racer, I guess? That's not really like an F1 or a NASCAR movie. Talladega Nights, how could I forget that? Sure. Yeah, that's a NASCAR movie. But it's a pretty small collection of movies like this. Where does this one stack up? It's probably the best one.

It's definitely the best one. I wonder, and I don't know whether you talked to Kaczynski about this, like, will this movie change how these actual races are filmed and covered? Oh, I didn't. That's a good question. I mean, and I would hope you would sell the technology to them for billions and billions of dollars, but I do think that this is just filmed

in such a spectacular and, you know, noticeably different way that it could make a fan of someone who otherwise is just like, I'm just watching them speed around. You know, you don't really get it when you're watching an old broadcaster. I don't. But I think watching this broadcasted, you'd be like, oh, okay. It's a very interesting question. One of the big challenges with the build, the construction of these cars is...

Is that it's on the car, so they can't go as fast. Exactly. It's the weight. The weight is such a critical issue that the addition of new technologies would... Brad's car in the movie doesn't have to go as fast as Lewis Hamilton's car on the track. Um, and so I don't know if they'd be willing, if they can continue to build lighter and lighter cameras, the way he describes, you should listen to the conversation with him, the way he describes the way that they constructed the cameras and then where they placed them in the cars is quite interesting.

And it was inspired in part by the problem solving they needed to do to get the cameras on the Top Gun Maverick planes. Right. You know, very similarly, he... And weight's a major issue. Yeah. Again, yes. So he's got a lot of experience figuring out this stuff.

He's an interesting guy. He's had like a fascinating path to movies. He was an engineer and then an architect, and then a commercial filmmaker, and then a narrative filmmaker, and now makes the biggest movies in the world with the biggest stars in the world. And he is in this rarefied air. It's like James Cameron and Peter Jackson and, you know, Michael Bay, Gore Verbinski.

There's only a handful of guys who are entrusted with like $300 million in huge stars to make big movies. But so much what he's doing is like engineering. It totally, totally. You know, so you need that particular skill set to be able to problem solve the way that he is to actually film things. In my notes for my questions with him,

I wrote down the phrase mad scientist and I didn't even say it to him, and he said it to me. He was like, I'm a bit of a mad scientist with these things. So very interesting. I really like his movies, and I think his lesser known movies are also quite underrated. So I would encourage people to check those out, and encourage them to check out my conversation right now.

What a segue. Let's go to my conversation with Joseph Kaczynski. ["F.1." by Joseph Kaczynski plays.] Joseph Kaczynski. [♪ MUSIC PLAYING I think, although it's a complicated question, but I, like many people, discovered this sport watching this TV documentary show called Drive to Survive on Netflix during the pandemic. And the first season of that show, they did not have the participation of the top teams.

So they were kind of forced to focus on the last place teams. And to me that was fascinating to hear the story of a team that goes out and loses every week. To hear the story of a rookie that no one had ever heard of that had spent his whole life trying to get to this point only to find himself in a car that was not as fast as everyone else,

so was not gonna be able to perform and might lose his seat. And to me, that was the first thing. And then the sport itself is really interesting because it's constructed in a way where your teammate often becomes your biggest rival. And that is because every team builds its own car in Formula One.

They don't buy these things. You literally have to build your own car and race it. So they build two cars for their two drivers. So that means the only person who's driving the exact same machine as you is your teammate and that therefore you have a very clear way to see who is better. So that sort of conflict is great for drama. And then I sent an email to the only person I knew in Formula One who happened to be the seven-time world

champion, Sir Lewis Hamilton, who I knew was interested in film. That's a whole nother story. And I said to him, I'm fascinated with this world. I'd love to investigate making a film in this world. Would you help me? Because I want it to be as authentic as possible and you obviously know it better than anyone. And he said, yes. So he invited me to the Austin Grand Prix in 2021. I stepped into the Mercedes garage.

He gave me full access. And I watched his team put a car together from parts and pieces in front of me. They assembled it. And then he climbed inside it and went out and, you know, set a lab record or whatever he did that day. And I was like, this is insane. You know, I've never seen anything like this. So I really came to it as an outsider going, wow,

this is a fascinating world. This is something that I think would be fun to see on a big screen. And so with Louis, and then I went to Jerry, and then Brad Pitt, and knew I would have to assemble a kind of perfect team to pull this off because there's a reason racing movies don't get made.

They're very expensive. There's no IP. So I was gonna have to create a very compelling case to all the studios that this was worth their time and money to make this. And so we went out, we pitched to nine studios, we got nine offers, and Apple to me was the most compelling, and we joined forces with them, and now here we are almost four years later. Take me back a little bit further because obviously the kinds of films that you make

are well suited to a motorsport film. I read that you had thought about or been close to doing something in the past. Yes, I was attached to do a movie called Go Like Hell, which eventually became Ford vs. Ferrari. And I actually had Brad and Tom at Tom's house reading the script, the three of us together. So that was the closest I had gotten. And I'm glad it didn't work out now looking back.

But had you been fantasizing about a race car movie, though, for years and years? Of course. I mean, yeah, I loved Grand Prix. I love Le Mans, I just like cars, you know, I was a mechanical engineer, and that was where I started in undergrad, then aerospace, then product design, then architecture. So I've kind of had, I've always had that interest

in that sort of thing. And so it was something that, yeah, it was in my, something I was naturally interested too, but it was kind of the, just the way the sport was organized and the dramatic stakes that I could see, that kind of construction that I thought

would make a great film, because without a great story, the racing means nothing. It's like, the racing's interesting for 30 seconds on its own. You need a compelling story, you need great characters, you need something to care about in order to make it through a two hour film. So that was the main thing and that's obviously what we spent the most time, the most, even on a film this complicated, most of the effort was in the story, as it should be.

How do you then try to make a movie like this that balances that drama that you're describing with the story, but that also sticks to, and is faithful to, the kind of authenticity of this world, which seems like a huge emphasis in the film? That was the needle we had to thread. We were making, you know, anyone who knows anything about Formula One knows the fans are, I mean, it's just the nature of the sport. The sport is very precise, very exact. You know, we're talking about thousands of a second. And when you, the deeper you dive into it, the more you realize there's all this strategy

going on behind the scenes. It really is like a chess game. And the fans are, there's a lot of history and the fans are very specific about the sport itself. So it kind of draws that personality, I think. And so I knew the fans were gonna be looking for that level of detail. That's why I brought Louis on first.

But at the same time, a movie of this scale can't only play to Formula One fans. It needed to, it needs to work for everybody. And that, threading that needle was the biggest challenge of the film. Making a film that Formula One fans can enjoy, but also making a film that people who know nothing about, forget Formula One, who just don't know anything about motorsports or don't even care about cars, can come in and and learn everything they need to know about Formula One to enjoy this film, but most importantly just get pulled into this, sucked into this story. So that was the biggest challenge and you know we'll see if if we did it, I guess.

How do you make decisions like that then? Because I'm a relative novice when it comes to F1, but I didn't feel lost watching the movie. I felt like there's dialogue that kind of explicates strategy or explicates the building of the car that was logical to me. And then you're also using announcers throughout the broadcasts to show us. We issued the real announcers. Right. Yeah. So, but how do you level set those decisions to say like,

this is too much hand holding. This is not enough. Are you relying on people who know the sport well, who don't know the sport? Well, I mean, I think it's good that I came as an outsider. I think if I had been a formula one fan my whole life, I think it would have been harder for me to have any sort of objective point of view on needing to know the basics. So Aaron Kruger wrote the script. He also came as an outsider.

So together we were both kind of learning as we were writing this. In addition to Lewis Hamilton, we had other consultants. We had Will Buxton, who's a well-known journalist in Formula One. We had Bernie Collins, who was also a journalist. She's on the broadcast, but she was an ex-strategist. We had Ruth Buscombe, who was an ex-strategist. So we had a lot of people inside that world that were advising us on the reality.

And then, you know, it is trial and error. You have multiple people reading the script. Eventually, you know, it is trial and error. You have multiple people reading the script. Eventually, you know, we tested this movie with audiences to kind of get a temperature check of where we were. And it's something that we tweaked up to the last day of the final mix. How do you feel about that process? Do you feel comfortable hearing from the audience and saying, I'm going to make an artistic change based on that feedback that you're getting?

I've learned how to listen to the audience. This is my sixth film now, and that's, it just takes, you just have to go through that process. Tron Legacy, actually, we never tested, which is interesting because of the nature of that and the fact I didn't have an antagonist with a head until the very end of the process. So it would have, it was kind of like impossible to test.

Maybe not impossible, but we didn't do it. And so on Oblivion was the first movie where I went through audience testing. And it was good to have Tom Cruise on that, you know, who had been through it many, many times. And you have to have the right kind of point of view when you're testing a movie. It's not that the audience is telling you

what your movie should be. It's you finding out, is your movie communicating what you're intending it to? Is what you're trying to get across, are they getting it? And that's what, you's what testing is great for, is to make sure that everything you intended is actually being absorbed, and they're feeling what you want them to feel.

And then you just learn how to, with experience, you learn how to look at those cards or listen to that focus group and make the sorts of changes that, don't change the film you're trying to make, but sometimes it's very little tiny adjustments that can make a huge difference. So I've, it's taken me,

I've been doing this for 15 years now, it's taken me some time to figure out how that process works. But on this one, it was pretty straightforward as to, you know, what little tweaks we wanted to do. It seems like this would be an incredibly difficult movie to make. Like, what was the single most challenging thing to capture or to realize to put us in the world? It's hard to pick one thing.

I mean, the challenge starts from the beginning in that the tools to make this film did not exist. So we had to kind of invent them. And that starts with the camera system, which- This is similar to Maverick, I feel like. Yeah, so the Maverick system would not work on this movie because even those cameras were too big and heavy for these cars.

They would, that system would have slowed these cars down too much and been working against the whole point of trying to capture Formula One. So we worked closely with Sony, my cinematographer, Claudio Miranda, and I worked with them for about a year to develop a new camera system, which was, our code name was Carmen.

I don't know if it's actually gonna come out or if they'll brand it and sell it, but they built us 25 prototypes of these cameras that are about much, much smaller than the Maverick cameras, much lighter, but the same concept where you separate the lens and the sensor away from the recorder and the batteries and all others.

So you just have like a part of the camera up where Brad and Damson are when they're driving the car. And then we had cables built into the chassis of the car down near the floor under the radiators where we had all the batteries and receivers and all the other things. So we built 16 camera mounts into these cars, 16 different positions where I could put the camera.

We would run about four at a time. And then usually about two of those were operable, which is another innovation that we did not have on Maverick. We built motorized panning heads that were controlled wirelessly. So I had like a master control center where I had all the image live. And then we had these little panners where we could pan the cameras.

There are moments in the movie where you were seeing the track and it's turning and then we're seeing Brad's face. Yes. And I thought to myself, I've not seen that in a movie. Yes. Certainly not in a race car movie before. That was the point. Yeah.

Not only to kind of give us, to allow us to connect the action, but also to really remind you that Brad's not on some big stunt rig or in a blue screen. He's out there driving this thing by himself at 180 miles an hour and you just can't fake that. And so that was, you know, a year of research to get those, that whole system working. Lots of, yeah. Can I ask you about that system specifically? When you're in that, when you're watching that footage being captured, for lack of a better phrase,

how do you know you're getting it? How do you know you're getting what you want from a storytelling perspective, because the race that you're trying to pull together and the dynamics of the story happening at the right time while also using a new technology that maybe you can't totally rely on or haven't worked with before.

Like, can you talk about maybe some of the complications of that? Wait, remember, I had come off Top Gun Maverick where I wasn't even seeing the footage when it was being filmed. Remember, I had to rehearse all that stuff on the ground and then send up the actors with the switch to turn the cameras on and assume and hope, you know,

that it was going to come back and look at it. So in that way, Maverick was a good training ground for me to know that, you know, you have to rehearsal preparation, you have to rely on that. But yeah, this was much more real time, more like a live event and just kind of watching, you know, eight or 16 different images simultaneously and calling out, you know, pan, you know, pan three, you know, that kind of stuff. It was, it was fun. It was intense, exciting.

And you know, we, we would break down the script, the beats that the actors need to hit. And I would look, you know, my editor, Stephen Marioni, was cutting all the way through shooting. So I would look at assemblies within 24 hours and go back and get what we needed. I mean, it was intense. It was definitely the most intense, complicated,

challenging environment I've ever shot a film in. And beyond all this kind of technology, these windows of time we would get to shoot would often be just between five and 10 minutes. So we were shooting during Grand Prix weekend, so between practice and qualifying, we'd have a little window where Brad and Damson would be in the cars warmed up with hot tires,

and then they'd say go, and they'd go out, and we'd get our block of time. They'd come in, and then we'd run out and shoot, you know, a scene on the grid with Javier and Tobias. And, you know, we might get eight minutes to shoot a scene, you know, two or three takes as opposed to hours or days that you'd usually get on a film. But the chaos of that was something I wanted to embrace and that's something that I hoped would translate on screen that this wasn't some sort of staged thing but more of a captured story.

And that's what I felt like would make this film feel different than anything else. Tell me about the crash sequences. Okay. They're incredibly effective. I think they reminded me a little bit of the kind of hair standing on end moments in Maverick. Okay.

And, but to me that, I feel like that comes down to the editing as much as the staging and the stunt work. Can you just talk about maybe designing some of those sequences and how you're executing? And are you executing them at these moments where you're at the Grand Prix's or they happen differently? Sometimes pieces of it. You have to kind of break it down piece by piece.

It doesn't all happen at once. When does this air? Is this before or after the movie comes out? It will come out the day it comes out. Okay. So you don't have to spoil too much. Yeah, so. We will talk about the film in depth. Both the accidents are, all the accidents in the film are based on real life accidents

or combining pieces of different ones. So there's one in the 1990s that's very much based on a real accident and a real person, an ex Formula One driver who was a consultant on our film and involved and graciously allowed us to use his life experience and allowed us to modify it to be, you know, part of Sonny's backstory. So that was really kind of a blend of period footage where we digitally altered it and footage that we shot ourselves kind of blended together along with some new technology.

Then there's a crash in Monza, which we shot fully practically, which was also based on a Formula 3 accident from a few years ago in the same corner, which was intense. And there's a whole making of that on the home video release, which people can watch, it'd be interesting. But that one did not go as planned and ended up being kind of better than I could have anticipated for that reason. And that's why I love live action filmmaking

and that things don't always go as you would expect. But that one also involves, yeah, fire, which was intense and also based on a real life Formula One crash from a few years ago, which I think reminds people of how dangerous this sport is, but also how safe it is. Because the safety measures built into these cars and the suits that they wear are pretty, have come a long way in the last 20 or 30 years that people are surviving and walking away from crashes they wouldn't have before.

When you talk about editing, I think on that one, that is an example of in a movie where you can go so, where the sound mix can be so intense and is on this movie, you know, this is a big loud dynamic film. There is power in pulling back, which we wanted to use and going more subjective in moments like that, which, you know, we got a lot of that from Lewis, that, you know, in such a loud sport,

it is at times very peaceful and quiet in the middle of it when you're in these things. There's almost a flow state that you can find inside this that's really, that all of these guys are kind of chasing. Maybe we're all chasing in the work that we do. So I thought that was fascinating. And then there's a crash, another crash in Vegas that we did have to shoot a lot of that

during the real Grand Prix, because that's a track that only exists for three nights out of the year. So in some ways, the Las Vegas was probably one of the biggest challenges for me because it is such a temporal environment. And we did not have any time to practice and Brad and Damson had to go out and drive that track

in the middle of the night in the cold for the first time ever while shooting it. And it's an intense fast sequence with no margin for error. So we did some stuff in this movie I can't believe they allowed us to do, but here we are, you are, we made it. I mean, it's remarkable. I was thinking a lot, I wrote a story in 2010

about Michael Bay, and for the story, I interviewed a handful of filmmakers who were sort of, he was in the tradition of, I talked to James Cameron, I talked to Steven Spielberg. Cameron used a phrase to me that I thought was really interesting about Bay. He said that Michael is the best at the big train set set up. And when I watch your movies, I feel like you have a real affinity for the big train

set, whatever Cameron specifically meant by that. And I was curious like why that style of filmmaking, why that scale is so appealing to you. I was, I mean, I've been that way since I was a kid. I've always been very project oriented. I had the big train set literally in my basement. I was building RC airplanes, model cars, model rockets, modifying them, burned all the hair off my legs with my own homemade fireworks.

I was very much kind of a mad scientist, project-based kid and loved, I've always loved having something to work on. So I think on movies like this, where you're talking about three or four years to construct something piece by piece, you know, and have the patience to kind of assemble it in a very methodical way.

It was, yeah, it was a kind of assemble it in a very methodical way. It was, yeah, it was a kind of challenge that I was really drawn to. So yeah, I don't think every film I make will be like this. I like to mix it up. So we'll probably do something very different next, but yeah, to be able to embed myself in the world of Formula One, to have my own team essentially on the grid.

We had our own garage during the Grand Prix between Ferrari and Mercedes. We had our car on the track. We traveled around the world. I got to see all these incredible things and make this film was a real adventure. The film was interrupted by the strikes, which elongated some of the production.

Yep. What were the challenges of that? And was there any benefit to that? Huge benefit, honestly. Like I wish I could make every movie that way. Shoot a little bit, take a break, cut it together, think about it, just rewrite, you know, come back.

It wasn't quite in the middle. Honestly, it was six days into photography. My four SAG actors left. And so I was in England with a full crew and no actors. So I instantly just kind of switched over and became shot all racing unit, became second unit director, shot 38 days, continued our journey around the world. So I got to shoot every tire change, every button, every click, you know, you see in this movie I shot myself, which is not always the case on big movies. So for me, that was kind of fun. I'm sure the line producer,

you know, got some more gray hairs when he saw me standing around shooting inserts on the steering wheel. But I kind of liked that stuff and felt like, you know, it was keeping everybody working and it was moving the film forward in a time where most a lot of people had to stop. We were able to continue. So that was great. And then when we ran out, when I'd shot every bit of racing I possibly could, we paused. Then the actors came back shortly after that,

and we picked up in 2024 at Daytona with the opening sequence, and then picked up with the Formula One season with my actors and did the rest. But I was able, in that time, to do a few things in the script that I think were really, really helpful, including something in the third act that we added, which I'm really, I don't wanna say

until the movie comes out. But yeah, it ended up being a really good thing. I love the opening sequence and the idea of almost like wrong footing the audience into what kind of a movie you're gonna be watching, not just the world that it's set in, but even just some of the energy and the way that it's cut and the way that Brad's character is portrayed.

Can you just talk about that decision and why it feels that way versus what F1 feels like? I mean, the first 10 minutes you're really meeting Sonny Hayes and I wanted to meet him in his world doing his thing without a bunch of backstory. You know, Brad is kind of allergic to that sort of stuff. And it felt like you can do things with an icon like him and with Tom that you can't do with other actors. And so meeting him at Daytona

in a very kind of wordless sequence that's a lot more just kind of visual and sonic visual storytelling, you know, understanding who this character is, to me was a really kind of fun way to meet him. But more importantly, this is a story about a man who's kind of dropped into a different world where he doesn't belong, you know, if you're kind of thinking along kind of the more mythic lines of types of stories, this is a man who's, you know, stranger in a strange land.

And opening up in Daytona to me felt like a nice contrast to where we put him in shortly thereafter, which is the world of F1. So that was kind of the, and it was not the original opening of the movie. The original opening of the movie was what is now the last scene in the movie. That is where we originally found Sonny Hayes. And that was something that Lewis Hamilton said to me.

He's like, you can't meet him. Again, I don't want to say, but you can't meet him here. That's too far from F1. You need to be somewhere closer. So that's where the endurance racing opening came from. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay, that puts a new color on the experience

of watching the movie. That dovetails with the music, where you've got this kind of bifurcated approach to the music, where you've got hardcore classic rock needle drops. Yep. And then Hans' kind of, I guess, EDM inspired score. Yeah, for Hans, it's actually a throwback kind of

to where he got started, you know? If anyone hasn't seen the Buggles video, you know? If you want to see where Hans started, please pull that up on YouTube right now. So yeah, he started in electronic music. And I think, you know, we liked the idea of this score having a little bit of his, the stuff he started with, but also the classic, you know, big orchestral moments when you need it.

But also we had to find a score that could actually punch through the sound of these cars, which is not easy. And what we found was the electronic stuff actually did cut through in a way. It gives it a pulse that, you know, strings would have just kind of been lost in, the drone of these engines. So, yeah, I think Hans did an incredible job with this. And then, yeah, then we've also got these, we've got this soundtrack, which is, you know,

I've never had this many songs in a movie before. That was kind of a new thing. But once you've been on the road and experienced what Formula One and these races feel like, it is almost like a festival atmosphere. And it's a very global sport where there is a soundtrack to the cities you go to.

And for me, this kind of this film being a journey around the world, the songs really kind of help tell that story. But yeah, it was a very interesting balancing act between score and song on this. One thing that struck me is you've made a movie in air at great speed, on ground at great speed, you've done a film about fire. I feel like we need a film at sea from you.

You know what? I'm not much of a water guy. Really? Yes. Yeah. The boat thing, you know, sailing ships lost at sea. I don't know if that's my jam, but yeah, I think I've covered, you've covered air and ground now.

So yeah, we'll see. What's left to conquer then for you? I don't know. We'll see. We're getting close to the end on this one. Take a chance to recharge the batteries a little bit. I've got three scripts that are in development right now and all very exciting, very different sorts of things.

And we'll see which one kind of comes to fruition first. I'm curious as a filmmaker who works with big budgets, you talked about the kind of presenting to nine studios, getting this film made, you've made now film with Netflix, you've made a film with Apple, Warner Brothers distributing here in the United States. What do you make of kind of the theatrical moment versus the streaming moment?

I think it's really exciting. I think it's exciting to see Apple step up on, you know, there was no discussion about this movie other than it being theatrical and their commitment to this movie is massive and it being a purely theatrical experience. And working with them has been really interesting because they've been able to bring some elements to it

that no other studio that I've worked with, like this haptic trailer that we made a few weeks ago, which is like, what studio is gonna be able to do that? The stuff they're doing in store, just working with them has been really interesting and very exciting as to, you know, what's possible in this business and different. I think Amazon also, having talked to them recently,

is really doubling down on the theatrical experience. So these, you know, tech companies that are coming in are leaning into theaters because I think they realize, and we saw this on Top Gun, if your movie opens in theaters, if this is, if people experience these stories on the biggest screen with a crowd of people and a great sound system, if they experience it that way first, it leaves an emotional impact and impression that carries through rentals, downloads,

Blu-ray, whatever it is, it has a much longer lifespan if you start in the theater. If you skip that, it's just different. And so I think they've, I think they realize that. And so I'm excited. I feel like, you know, I'm very optimistic. I think this year so far has been really exciting with, you know, the movies that have come out

and how they've played. And, you know, I hope we can continue that momentum and have a robust slate of films, a mix of sequels and originals and all genres and sizes in between. That's what the movie business needs to be healthy. And I feel like we're still, there's a little hangover from COVID,

but I think this summer's hopefully moving in the right direction. So I'm very optimistic. I wanted to ask you about the originals thing too, because obviously Maverick was a legacy sequel based on something that people were very familiar with. This is a very rare, completely original, big budget movie star movie.

Yes. Which is, we're told is the hardest thing to mount in all of the business right now. Which is why, you know, it's, has Brad Pitt, you know, at the center of it. And that's, that's it. You know, if you, if you go to students that I want to make an original story

that's going to be, you know, expensive and not based on an IP, the first thing they're gonna say is, well, can you get Brad Pitt? And so that's why I went to Brad first. Interesting. And so that's a big part of it. But yeah, no, we need movies like this.

I mean, I just, I love sequels. Obviously I've worked on a few of them and they're incredible, but it's important to have some new material coming in every year. And that's why I was so pleased to see, you know, how Sinners landed, you know, our rated original, you know, land so well. So it's like we need,

the studios need a few of these to work every year so that they feel comfortable taking You know, you've got the ones that are not the innings You know for sure in this business at all, but if they can Take a couple of bets in the slate every year. That's Good for all of us Joey and every episode of the this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. I know you've been touring the world. God. Have you seen any good movies?

Could be old or new. Hmm. Last night on the flight back, this is very random. I watched Tootsie. Oh. And- What spurred that? You know, I just, I think I wanted something, I just wanted something with, you know,

some great performances and just something off-center and Dustin Hoffman in that movie. Just some really funny stuff, obviously. It's, being inside the business a little bit, there's certain that element of it, but it was a fun, you know, it was a, it's just a great movie and it holds up. Great recommendation. Thanks for doing the show.

Thank you. Good to see you again. You too. Thanks to Joseph Kaczynski. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. We'll be back on Monday where some friends of the pod will give their favorite movies of the year so far? Have you made your pick? I think I did. You didn't laugh at my joke at all. You didn't even acknowledge it. I don't even know what your joke was.

I said that I would pick my movie and or Alto Nights. And you didn't even... You know, nothing. It's funny because I repeated your joke to Chris Ryan. Okay, so you were stealing it. So I liked it. And I acknowledge its greatness. Yeah, my pick is not Alto Nights. Okay, you're not stealing it. So I liked it. Okay. And I acknowledge its greatness. Yeah, my pick is not Altonis. Okay, you're not being silenced.

Yeah. You are an equal participant in this project. And a woman in STEM. And a woman in STEM. Thank you for watching and listening. We'll see you soon. you