The Big Picture - ‘Fast 9’ and the ‘Fast & Furious’ Rankings

Episode Date: June 25, 2021

The long-awaited ‘Fast 9’ is here, so Sean and Amanda are digging into the entire ‘Fast & Furious’ series of movies and ranking ’em all with the man who lives his life one-quarter of a pod at a time, Shea Serrano. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Shea Serrano Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about fast and furious things. Joining us today to talk about the long-awaited Fast 9 and the entire Fast and Furious series of movies.

He lives his life one quarter of a pot at a time. It's our pal and the biggest Fast fan on the planet, Shea Serrano. I'm Shea Serrano. I just wanted to match the thing. Is that my energy? Were you just aping my energy there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was me doing my best Paul Walker in honor of the Fast and the Furious guys it's been 20 years of Fast and Furious movies where did the time go this is Universal's

biggest movie franchise and it is the seventh highest grossing film franchise ever it's made over six billion dollars and it's about to add a whole bunch more with the new movie that's just come out Shay how are you feeling about the Fast and and furious franchise right now oh i'm a big fan i still love it the movies can just get worse and worse it doesn't even matter at this point like what are we doing we're just we just want to see some stuff that's it that's all we want to do amanda what about you you you have you had fast Five in your best movies of the decade list. You have sung the praises of this franchise, and specifically Hobbs & Shaw, which I just, you know, let's start there. Completely fair. Did not really get it.

That didn't make sense for me. So I, like, I'm open hearted. franchise and its simplicity is maybe one word or idiocy is another, but like a beautiful stupidity and a challenge of, you know, the limits of the real world. It's my kind of fantasy, if you will, that I think are very special when applied correctly. And like, I just, I like it when things go fast so I can't I can't be that bad it feels it feels to me like the movies have done the things you wanted them to do already we got the first one it's perfect the first one is literally a perfect movie it's awesome we have like the big gigantic fast five that one shows up and it changes everything we have the big emotional kick and furious seven so those were the that's all we needed everything else from here is just like this was like after after dirk won the title in 2011 it didn't matter

nothing mattered he could have played for 30 more years if he wanted to and we just all loved dirk that's what this franchise is i I love that comparison. Unfortunately, you're not going to get off that easy because we are going to rank every single one of these movies in this podcast. So you're going to have to address some of the underrated films

in the series and also some of the less successful films, Hobbs and Shaw among them. So this franchise has evolved pretty radically in that 20 years. This basically started out as an illegal street racing

movie it was a movie about people in fast cars flipping that nas switch and just going to the next level and it has somehow transitioned into the biggest superhero slash heist movie slash men on a mission movie franchise out in the world right now it's just absolutely amazing to me some of it has worked very well some has not i think justin lynn is probably most responsible men on a mission movie franchise out in the world right now. It's just absolutely amazing to me. Some of it has worked very well. Some has not. I think Justin Lin is probably most responsible for taking the franchise from this grounded street level action to something bigger and bolder than that. And Justin Lin, of course, is back here for Fast 9.

Shay, are you surprised that this franchise, which you have honestly followed really closely over the years and have written lovingly about over time has transformed in the way that it has no because you could see it happening the justin lynn thing is exactly right so he shows up for tokyo drift and he's like we okay we've established that this thing's happening in this world we're gonna go to the other side of the planet now and show you that it's also over here too it's bigger than you know and then he gets into fast and furious and that're going to go to the other side of the planet now and show you that it's also over here too. It's bigger than you know. And then he gets into Fast and Furious and that he begins to like sprinkle the seeds of how big the movie is going to get. That's when we have

the, they're like fucking driving through a mountain at that point. And it's getting a little bit weird. He figures it out perfectly in Fast Five. And at that point you just belong to the franchise. Now you're like, well, let's fucking see how big it can get because it was just getting more and more fun each time so no it wasn't surprising because it didn't happen like uh quickly this was this was a gradual like it the first one comes out in 2001 to fast five when everything really gets big is a decade later like you know it didn't make a big big jump real fast. Amanda, you have been expertly covering the world of illegal street racing for the last 20 years.

So I know you've been, I know you've been down with this franchise for a long time. No, can I wait? Can we, can we just start there? Um, because I, like I came to this movie with fast five. I was taken by friends to see fast five in a theater. I had never seen a fast and furiousious film before then. What a start. Right. I mean, you can imagine. It's like an almost religious experience when they actually physically pull the safe out of the wall. And I was just like, oh my God, I can't believe this

is happening. And it is sort of like the best version of a baptism by fire to start with that movie. But I did go back and do the work and see the other movies and try to understand this world. And even when I was kind of trying to refresh my memory, which just means reading Wikipedia pages of plot summaries of all of the early movies for this podcast, I was just, the Wikipedia pages, especially for the first three movies, have so much detailed information about the cars that they drive. Just like so much info of things that I don't understand and the various cars and what's been done to the cars. And then, you know, they're choosing between car models and all this stuff.

And that is a part of this franchise that is, you know, it's clearly central, but also that you don't have to know anything about and that I definitely don't know anything about. But what's amazing is that the car descriptions just like completely disappear by the Wikipedia for fast six, fast seven. Everyone's just like, we gave up, you know, it's really, it's about a submarine at this point. Good luck guys. I will say I I'm not a car guy. I've never been a car guy. I'm not a street racing guy. And frankly, I'm not a Vin diesel guy and I I'm not afraid to say it. I've never been a car guy. I'm not a street racing guy. And frankly, I'm not a Vin Diesel guy. And I'm not afraid to say it. I've never been a Vin Diesel guy.

The worst quality. I remember seeing The Fast and the Furious when it came out. I liked it. I thought it was a cool popcorn movie. You know, it borrowed its title from a somewhat well-known Roger Corman exploitation movie from the 1960s. And a lot of movies that we see now seem to be very inspired by some of those Roger Corman movies. But it was also obviously a very shiny studio project and directed by a guy named Rob Cohen, who went on to make a couple of other movies like this, among them Triple X starring Vin Diesel.

And I certainly did not think we'd see a second one. And I certainly did not think we'd be getting 10 of these movies, let alone 12 13 and 14 which are all been promised apparently uh i'm i'm on the one hand impressed by the way they've been able to extend and expand the the series's lifespan on the other hand it has something that it doesn't have something that so many other movies have and amanda has has railed against this thing in the past, this concept of world building and connectivity and needing to know things to understand movies. And the truth is, while there is some arcana to these stories, and it's good to know the motivations of the characters, it doesn't really matter to enjoy a fast movie. It's basically just

is as good as the set pieces the action the stunts the heists and some of the jokes are that basically sells the movie over time it's one of the reasons probably why this franchise will never die you know no matter what happens i feel like it's got an eternal lifespan i think that's true and not true it's true for me it's how i watch these movies and obviously like over time as i've caught up with the people you know I've learned some of the character dynamics I've learned the importance of family you know which is really what the Fast and Furious franchise is all about and I've um my heart has grown as the family has grown and I think especially for the true fans of the series I mean there's the the Brian and Dom relationship and then as Shay said you, Furious 7 was very emotional.

And that required some back knowledge and also just some knowledge about Paul Walker's life. So I think there are people who do invest in the arcana and specifically the arcana of who's alive and who's not and who is dead and who's fake dead. But even there, and one of the hallmarks of this franchise is like people die, but like, just kidding. They actually weren't murdered. That was a fake out. So they can come back and have amnesia and,

you know, fight someone and then rejoin the family. You can't trust anyone's death. And I think that there is something. It's just a little less serious than the way that some other people take the hallmarks and the, the, the Canon of the other franchises.

It's like, if, if something of a storyline or isn't working for us, or you need a character back or whatever, we'll make it work. You know, the family rides on and we can bring every bat one back if we need to. And it's just,

you don't have to think about it that hard. And I really appreciate that. Shay, do you feel like you are closely tracking the mythology, the archaeology of the Fast films? Or how do you approach a new Fast movie? More so than most is my guess, is my guess. And that's the thing that I think is really enjoyable about these. Because if you really want to get get into it it's there for you to get into and it's not like super complicated this is not like game of thrones stuff where you need to know like like fucking maps and whatnot like there's just some main characters who they're maybe alive or not alive maybe there's a timeline

issue that i still don't understand but see and and that's the thing, too. Like, if you want to get into that, we can, like, have that whole conversation. But the movie allows for you to, like, nerd out if you want to. It also allows you to not interact with any of that stuff. I went and saw this with my dad, and I was like, we sat down to watch it. I said, hey, did you watch, like, the previous movies before this one to get ready? And he was just like, nope. And then we just watched it, and we both, both like had the same experience when we left the theater. Like it's,

it's a really, it's a neat trick that this franchise is able to, to pull off that it can be in both of those things for both sides. What are the things you expect going into, into these movies at this point? Because the worlds have gotten bigger. The stunts have gotten bigger. Amanda,

you mentioned family. Family, of course, is the signature. I don't know if something can be a theme, if it's a word that is said 300 times in a movie, but it is a relevant concept to the fast

movies. Shay, what else can we expect in a fast movie? This is what I look for when I sit down to watch the thing. Number one, as Amanda said, family. That's first and foremost. That's the important part. When the movie figures out how to do that the best is when the movies are the best. It's that simple. That's why the first one was so effective.

That's why the fifth one and the seventh one were so effective because they nailed it in those specific movies. So I look for that. This is my own personal list, by the way. That's the screen thing when it happens is i need a scene where dominic toretto looks out of the window of his car i need it i have to have it that's what i signed up for give me that exact shot his face is built for this his shoulder is built for this like he's only supposed to exist inside of the the like body of a car is how i see him in my head. So I need to see that.

And then, of course, I'm looking for whatever stunts they're going to do in the movie, be them big or small. That's the third thing. And then the fourth thing is I need some more stunts. And then the fifth thing is I need some more family. And there you go. That's all I'm looking for when I sit down to watch these movies. That's it.

That's all I need. Amanda, is there anything else that you're looking for when you see one of these movies? Sure. Yes. I mean, obviously we just need to like up the ante of the, the, the vessel, like the, the vehicle that is being used to steal something or win somebody back. You know, you're going from like dragging a safe to the airplane, to the aircraft carrier or not an aircraft carrier. Can a plane be an aircraft carrier or what do you call that? Fast six'm talking about the end of the fast six you know you know that's a cargo plane cargo that's what i'm talking about cargo plane right this is that you don't even have to know the words you need a submarine you need a spaceship you need a car jumping on another car just like

very large things like going really fast do you guys guys remember? I think it was, it was around the time of fast five, the onion made a video that was, um, sort of mean spirited. And I think it was intending to be mean spirited, but it was like a cool, an onion interview with the screenwriter of a fast five. And then it, the interview was with a small child and the child is just being like, and then it jumped out of a plane and then it went really fast. And you know, it's, the video is trying to point out how simple and like maybe stupid these movies are,

but like, that's actually what I want. I'm just like, and then another plane jumps off the plane and then they crash like two kids playing together. So that's what I'm looking for. I think also you've got to have some inexplicable hacking, especially after fast five, you know, and then obviously Coronas.

And if you have not read about the product placement journey that Coronas have gone on in the Fast and Furious franchise. Andrew Guadadero, our colleague at The Ringer, wrote a great piece about it that you should check out. But you got to have family and you got to have Corona. There must have been some sort of fight between Vin Diesel and them because they have it in Fast 9 and they open it and everything and he doesn't take a drink. He just sets it down. And that seems intentional to me. Another thing that I look for, if we're actually listing specific things,

like a marquee moment in any of the later movies especially, Five and Beyond is a Letty fight. I think she's the best fighter in the franchise. She's given us the two best fights. It's when she fights Ronda Rousey in Furious 7, and when she fights Gina. She fights Gina twice in Fast and Furious Part 6. The subway fight is fucking gnarly.

The Ronda Rousey fight is incredible. I think she has the most fight confidence of anybody in the movie. She has a great fight scene in this one. I was really excited about it. They have a clip of it in the trailer when she knees the guy in the movie. She has a great fight scene in this one. I was really excited about it. They have a clip of it in the trailer when she like knees the guy in the chest and rides him like a surfboard out of the window. And I'm like, here we go. You're doing the stuff I need you to do right now. This is a movie that's opening in movie theaters very soon and is expected to be the biggest new release of the year thus far. And it is a great movie theater kind of a franchise.

I would say it is not the greatest sit at home and watch it with your friend, sit at home and watch it by yourself movie, but with hundreds of people laughing and kind of getting the rollicking event movie

spirit of it, I think is when it's most successful. I guess as far as what we love most about it, Shay, do you have like a character that you feel most connected to in these stories? Because the fast movies do something interesting where not every key character is in every single movie. And especially in recent years when there has been rumors about who may or may not be getting along amongst some of the high level staff of this movie, you sometimes get a movie with a rock that doesn't feature Vin Diesel, or you get a movie that features Jason Statham, but doesn't feature, I don't know, Michelle Rodriguez or Ludacris. Who is your key person in these movies?

The number one most important person in the movie across all of them is Dominic Toretto. He's the main one. It's him. You have to have him, Brian, and Letty. Those are the three. You need those three for the franchise to be at its absolute best. You have some wiggle room in here every once in a while, but you need those. And that's why the last couple of movies have been not as well received as the previous ones, especially the way that they ended Furious 7 was absolutely perfect. And they try and lean on it a little bit in the fate of the Furious. We get like a picture of Brian. We get like some sideways talk of them.

In Fast 9, they're like alluding to him in the background. But you need those three. But if you can only have one, if you're starting your team, it has to be Toretto. He's the main, main one. Amanda, we mentioned your admiration for illegal street racing. I've also known you to be an admirer of the music of Tyrese Gibson. Is Tyrese your number one guy in the Fast franchise?

He did make me laugh in this one. He's funny in this one. He's funny. He's funny. Roman is funny. I mean, what Shay said is true in the sense that this entire franchise is built around the Dom character. And you can't have the family without him.

And also he just, you know, always manages to save the day. So you also kind of need him for those purposes. But I, I am drawn to the comic relief and to the side characters and to the villains and to the kind of chaos of everyone all together. Especially now that we no longer have brian which is very

sad that the dom and brian thing was really nice but um i'm a big fan of the the shaw family both jason statham and helen mirren but like this is the thing helen mirren and charlie's 300 both in this franchise it's and they are just like getting paid a lot of money to say nonsense things for a couple of days and then go on with their lives. And that means a lot to me as well. So yeah, I like all the side characters. So Fast 9 is an event for me and I cared about it

for pretty much one reason and one reason only. And it's because Han is back. I don't think I'm spoiling anything to say that Han Liu, the great character from initially Tokyo Drift and an incredible actor, Sung Kang, who I first saw in a great movie called Better Luck Tomorrow,

directed, of course, by Justin Lin. And he's the coolest person on the planet. He is the single coolest person I've seen in a movie in years. And it was just so exciting to see him in this new movie he he just stands there with his hands in his pockets and you're like fuck yes it's like a gq i think it was a gq spread that just came out with some pictures

of him just being a person he's just sitting there fuck yes you're doing it you're doing exactly what i want you to do this is one of the things that I love about Justin Lin. This was very much like Jay-Z and Nas, you made it a hot line, I made it a hot song. It's like he shows up and he's like, oh, the movie that I did before, Better Luck Tomorrow, I'm just going to make that a part of this. It's part of this now and it's better. It's better for it.

I fucking love it. Han is incredible. Okay, so one of the issues that I have with this new film and that I have with a lot of these movies is I don't think that this series does villains very well. Now, they've gotten some high-profile villains.

You mentioned Charlize Theron just now, Amanda, and she, of course, is the villain in Fate of the Furious. But there is this sense that Dom and Brian in the early stages of the films are doing this kind of hero-antihero dance. And so it's ultimately never really about whoever is the villain in the series.

But it's unusual. In the world of Voldemort and Sauron and all the big bads in the history of the franchise movies, Fast and the Furious doesn't really seem to care about that am i am i right about that shay you are a hundred percent correct that's it that's how they start the first movie there's no real villain it's it's turns out it's dom that brian is chasing and it's all by the by the time he realizes it it's just all so convoluted that he doesn't like know what to do or how to handle it and that's what makes it so interesting that's part of the reason too fast too furious didn't pop it's part of the reason

tokyo drift didn't pop it's part of the reason fast and furious didn't drop didn't pop but then they do it again in fast five with the rock and he's not really the villain but he's the villain and they're like oh this is like this is how we should do it each time they go so far they like they go so far with it in fast nine that the main villain here is john cena or like he's the the like tool of the main villain he doesn't even make it through the whole movie before he turns good now like they're just like you're part of the team automatically you know what i'm saying like but that yeah that's that's the thing that happens in here i think statham is probably the best like the best villain they've gotten just because he felt already like he belonged in that world.

If you just close your eyes and you're like, who's this franchise missing? Oh, Jason Statham. That's who we have to get. I agree. I think the Shaw family in general, long term, should return to villainy full stop in the franchise. I think they're the best that they've had.

But I don't know, Amanda. What do've had but i don't know amanda what do you what do you think you like you don't like a bond villain i i don't know what it is about you that you just kind of you get really mad you didn't grow up on those movies and so anytime like someone kind of just invents like some evil international spy to take things over which is like clearly a macguffin it's just movie moviemaking. Like, I don't care. Like, and I actually like kind of having fun people like Charlize show up for two days to do nonsense, to add some sort of ridiculous tension. Like, I just don't overthink it. So, and the other thing is like, I just, you know, I really like any scene in a movie that's like, we got to get the gang together. You know,

we got to get the crew, we got to assemble everybody. And so now that the Shaw family is a part of the family, like, I don't want you to take them away. We just got to keep adding. That's another genius part of these movies is even though they have like the world's largest, like international crime fighting street, you know, racing gang, they just keep adding more people. You know, the tent is like big enough for everybody. So, and they get to have one of those scenes every time. So let's keep the Shaw's and just, you know, some more bond villains i'm at peace with it charlie's is so funny and fate of the furious you knew she was going to be like wilding out when she showed up

with fucking dreads yeah grades or whatever you're like oh here we go we're gonna go for it i guess and then she shoots dominic's baby's mother in the head in front of him and in front of like she was she was really trying to be a villain there and in fast nine they're like oh just stand in this glass box like magneto we're gonna do that with you this time and give you a game boy to like hack whatever whatever uh if she worked more than two days on f9 i will be shocked i think that that was an incredible paycheck job by her to come through for what felt like 16 hours record every line of dialogue she was magnificent she's always magnificent we love charlize but um i you know i wouldn't say it makes me mad amanda that they don't have great villains but i don't think i don't really love it because

the stakes are like are they gonna do the job yeah they're gonna do the stakes are like, are they going to do the job? Yeah, they're going to do the, every movie is the same. They, they pull it off at the last minute, but that's not why you go to these movies. You don't like getting mad that the fast and the fierce franchise doesn't have getting mad.

Like, why does that keep saying I'm getting mad? There's like, there's like getting mad that fucking bloodport didn't have a better dialogue. Like that's not what we're there for. We're not there for the village. We're there for Dom. We're there to see you like to throw a fucking whatever, a submarine to the moon.

Right. And fast forward to like that's what we're here for. That's all we need. We're there to go to space, you know? Yeah, that's all. That's all. So I mentioned that this is a movie theater movie par excellence the movie theaters really need fast and furious um do movies need fast and furious is kind of

an existential question that i'm interested in exploring with you guys because this franchise is one of the only like original properties to emerge in the last 30 years in hollywood that is is as important to the bottom line of moviemaking as any. And it may not be the smartest franchise of all time. It may not have the best acting, no shots to Vin, but it is consistent and persistent. It doesn't seem like it's going anywhere. Amanda, what do you think? Yes. I mean, movies need anything that will get people to watch them and talk about them. Like we are, Sean, we are screwed every week. Like just like, please make a movie. Don't make a mini series. Thank you. We're begging

you. So any movie that, um, that people want to see, it's an international hit as well. It features, you know, a lot of actors and actresses who are not the typical stars of a Hollywood franchise over the course of 20 years now, which is very exciting. I, you know, it's just bringing a different type of fan in and is it Citizen Kane? No, it is not, but we have space for Citizen Kane. And then we have space for cars smashing against each other, you know, in a, in a ravine and that's dope too. And if it gets more people watching movies, then I, you know, it's fun. You see a similar thing happen with books or in the publishing industry where it's like

one or two books that are really successful will float the company for the year. And those two, like even if those books are terrible or whatever, they sell enough copies that the other cool people get to make the cool stuff that you want to see. So a lot of the movies that you watch that you like, they don't get made if you don't have movies like these that are fucking just bringing in every dollar. Let's rank these movies. Che, you're going to be the driver of this conversation. I've listed all 10 of these movies here, which includes the nine Fast and Furious films and Hobbs and Shaw.

These are the 10 movies we're going to be ranking. Now, we've heard talk of the first film. We've heard a lot of talk of Fast Five. We've heard a lot of talk of Furious Seven. Those, I think, are widely considered the best of the series. Fair to say? One, two, three.

You think that's one, two, three? I think it's... Oh, go ahead, Amanda. There's going to be... One, two, three. You think that's one, two, three? I think it's... We need to do some drama. And also, I'm obviously going to fight with you on one of them. Please do. But I think we can group those in the top three for sure. Yeah.

Okay. So what order, Amanda, would you put those three films? So I obviously am putting Fast Five at number one. And I think probably... I don't know. So I obviously am putting Fast Five at number one. And I think probably, I don't know, the Fast and the Furious is just like a completely different movie than everything. I mean, it's just totally different, but I do think it's pretty good on its self-contained terms,

so I would probably put it at two, and I'd put Furious 7 at number three. It's no disrespect to paul walker the the thing about this one is like this is similar to in the like late 90s early 2000s i was when i like found jay-z it was like volume two when that album came out which sold five million copies everybody was talking about i'm like oh i like this guy and then after that i found reasonable doubt which was his first. And it sounds like it's a whole different planet. That's the same thing that happens here with these. If you come in at Fast Five, and then you go back and watch the Fast and the Furious, it's like, what am I even looking at?

What are we doing? You're still in DVD players? What's happening here? Shay, organic plug. When is the No Skips episode about Reasonable Doubt coming out, man? Tomorrow. Well, I don't know what day this podcast is coming out. So it's already going to be out. I can't believe you didn't plug yourself there. It was set up beautifully. Oh, my bad. My bad.

I'm too busy. I'm too focused on this. I'm too mad that Amanda put Furious 7 in third place. At number three? This is the correct order. I know it's the emotional complex whatever. But Fast Five, it opens up all the possibility. It has some of the original.

It's got, you know, it's looking ahead. It has, I mean, it's obviously important to me, but I just, they dragged a safe through Rio, Shay. Like they took the safe out of the wall and then they just dragged it through the city and then they switched it to another safe. And then The Rock was like like where is the money i mean it's so good come on it's really it's great listen this is like we're talking 98 99 100 that's

what we're doing here they're like this is a level that we're at but number one is the fast and the furious we have to have the first one there it's the start of everything it's the best version of dom and and brian that we get like and that's the centerpiece of the whole franchise that you get for sure um so we have to have that one to start after that is furious seven because that's when i will actually not be on this podcast if fast five is is less than number two i would give you number one that's a compromise Furious 7 like no it's very emotional on this podcast what do you know but I was gonna be like no Furious 7 they have all of the pieces they put them all together in the perfect way it's the perfect send-off for Paul Walker every one of these movies I've seen

them in the theater we're in the theater everybody in here is just fucking crying at the end when they're doing the beach scene just like an actual Laramie who doesn't care about any of this stuff is it just in tears with me we're both just like i can't i'm crying to a wiz khalifa song in the movie theater like what that's how special this movie is the fast and the furious furious seven fast five i love all three of those but that has to be the order that they come in say it one more time time. Do your top three. The Fast and the Furious. Number one. Furious 7.

Number two. Fast 5. Amanda's going to have a heart attack. Amanda might have to make a separate list. I just... I was actually willing to compromise and go Fast and the Furious 1, Fast 5 2,

Furious 7 3. But I will, yeah. And I can live with that. That's a very common listing of them. There's half of the people listening to this right now are like, Amanda is absolutely correct. Well, actually, my personal ranking is Fast 5 number one. But I was willing in the spirit of diplomacy and family

to meet you halfway. I'm not willing to meet you all the way at Fast Five at number three. This is a podcast of compromise, despite all evidence to the contrary. So I'm going to say that our rankings for now, and I have no idea why we did one, two, three first, when we should have done it last. Nevertheless, we'll go the Fast and the Furious one, Fast Five, two, Furious 7.

Fucking shit. Okay, Shay is mad. I'm very sorry to you, Shay. That's terrible. Let's keep going. Hey, Shay, you're an expert. Come on here. Tell us what you think.

Hey, guess what? Everything you said is wrong. You're wrong. That's not what I said. Erroneous. Erroneous. Erroneous. Okay.

Let's do number 10. Hobbs and Shaw. Is Hobbs and Shaw the worst? Hobbson shaw i'm with you is it and i like both of those people and they just didn't know what to do with them and also the effects were so garbage that helicopter scene was the fakest thing i've ever seen in my entire life give me a break it's not like it's not that good it's like it's fun to watch it's fine this is i think starting with like eight with the fate of the furious hobson shaw fast nine the trailers became more fun than the movies like when you what when you watch the trailer for fast nine and it ends with han walking out of the tunnel i fucking lost my mind i watched it on i was like running around

the house screaming like it was like running around the house screaming like it was like a very exciting thing and then you watch when you watch it in the movie they like do it so slowly

you know it's coming it's not like a you know not like a big thing could you imagine if they hadn't revealed that in the trailer if he just

like we didn't know that would have been so awesome dude it would have been incredible yeah it would have been it would have been incredible but I'm with was a mistake. It would have been incredible. But I'm with Amanda.

I think Hobbs and Shaw, it doesn't have any of the pieces of the original movie, like zero pieces from the Fast and the Furious. You can argue Tokyo Drift, it doesn't have any of the main characters, but it does have the spirit of the franchise in it. Hobbs and Shaw does it. Hobbs and Shaw, I didn't even include it in the list. It was a whole different thing for me. It's not & Shaw, I didn't even include it in the list. It was like a whole different thing for me. It's not even,

I'm like, I just made a list of top nine. I didn't even include it. Yeah, I think we have to consider it because it seems like what the Fast & Furious is going to be long term

is this series of expansion titles because clearly Jason Statham and Vin Diesel don't necessarily want to make a lot of movies together. And I think because of that, we're going to see

a lot of these families get split up over time. But okay, so Hobbs and Shaw is number 10. I would argue that the Fate of the Furious and F9 or 9 and 8. Is that too harsh about these most recent films? So you're putting... Sorry, because it's 8 and 9 and 9 and 8, I'm confused. I would say the Fate of the Furious is and 9 and 9 and 8, I'm confused. I would say The Fate of the Furious is 9 and F9 is 8, in my opinion. The titles are very confusing to me. I appreciate... Why is this the one place where they're trying to be clever? Like, no offense.

Just be like, Fast and the Furious 9, Fast and the Furious 8. Like, we can all count. It's cool. Okay. I guess. I mean, I like am charmed by Too Fast, Too Furious. And I think I'm also, but I don't know if it's the strongest part. And I think I'm also just really charmed by the baby set piece in Fate of the Furious,

which is when Jason Statham is, you know, fighting people and also trying to keep the baby set piece in Fate of the Furious, which is when Jason Statham is fighting people and also trying to keep the baby from crying. But maybe it's not worth advancing it for one set piece. So let me make my case here. And I don't know why I care about this, but I do. The bigger set pieces are really what pushes these things over the top for me. And the bigger set piece in Fate of the Furious

is the submarine cipher sequence with Charlize Theron, right? And in F9, we will get to this, but there is a series of set pieces with magnets that are fucking sick. Everything else in the movie, I kind of take it or leave it. But anytime there's a magnet on screen, I'm like, I'm into this movie. I'm excited about this.

I've never seen this used in this way. And purely on the strength of that innovation to the story, I would put F9 over The Fate of the Furious. Do you buy it?

That's exactly the order that I have it in. Okay. All right. I don't feel that strongly about it. I just, I don't really think that we give enough credit

to either Jason Statham or Helen Mirren's performances in these franchises. You know who's great? And especially in Fate of the Furious because it works in that movie and doesn't really work in Hobbs and Shaw. But anyway. That's fair. I was going to say my favorite character out of Hobbs and Shaw is Vanessa Kirby. When she shows

up, she's great. She's like the surprise of the movie. She's just great fight confidence. I'm a big fan of fight confidence. I think her work in mission impossible six and in hobs and shaw should have cemented her as the next great action star and then she went and made a movie about a traumatic birthing sequence that like i don't know how that she made that pivot from hobs and shaw to that movie that's just terrifying let her do you know the fact that she could do it is like, that's pretty great. She's got range for sure.

Okay, so we're left with these four movies that are widely considered kind of the chunky middle. And there are some serious defenders of Too Fast, Too Furious. There are some serious defenders of Tokyo Drift. I find Fast and Furious 6, the sixth film, and Fast and Furious, the fourth film. I can't keep them straight i don't know what happens in either of those movies i just remember not really caring about them that much i like six more than four because six is you know well it's obviously like post fast five so they just have

like found their more is more footing and the rock is in it that's when they do the whole thing with the cargo plane there's some you some romances and some side characters that I can't totally keep straight, but it is kind of like the soap opera-ist of them. So I would vote to put Fast and Furious 4 at number 7. Okay. That's absolutely correct. Okay.

Yeah, because Fast and furious fast and furious six we get a bunch of big things we get the introduction of the shaw family with the younger brother before statham shows up yeah he's like the least cool member of the shaw family tbh yeah you get you get uh this is the best like letty movie of the franchise we get a lot of letty in this movie um we have the the like the big fight scene between Letty and Gina that happens. There's like two of those. There's also the big fight

where The Rock and Dominic Toretto team up to fight the bat in the plane. Right, right, right. We have Han. We have Giselle. We have... You have to have that one

above part four. Part four, the only great thing in there is like... I don't even know if it's a great thing in there is like i don't even know if it's like a great thing but like the fight between dom and brian when dom believes that brian is like responsible had something to do with let his death you know yes i do remember that sequence okay hmm all right i so i feel good about that so we go hobson shaw the fate of the

furious f9 fast and furious which is the fourth film fast and furious six which i guess is also alternately known as is it known as anything else i guess it is fast and furious six why did they get less creative fast and furious six four five and six you can put these in any order you want i have it i have fast and furious six in my fourth place spot for the reasons that i that i listed i think it's more integral to the advancement of the movies. But you can put it in six if you like. Okay, so I'll just make the case for Too Fast, Too Furious very quickly. Which, when I saw, I did not like and did not understand.

And couldn't figure out why they were taking the franchise in this direction. And now I look at it, and I think about the context of John Singleton's career. Of course, he's since passed a few years ago and i think about the characters that introduced and the kind of tone that introduced and frankly the diversity that introduced which has become a signature amanda as you point out in this franchise and showing us some you know ludicrous character early on showing us the uh the tyrese character, the sort of the expansion of the world of Too Fast, Too Furious. It's pretty funny.

It's pretty entertaining. Seems like it has a little bit more in common tonally than with the current set of the franchise than that original Rob Cohen film, which is pretty kind of gritty and serious and does not have that much of a sense of humor. So I have come around on Too Fast, Too Furious quite a bit. The introduction of Roman to the franchise, great turn. The introduction of Ludacris,

great turn. John Singleton has just come off of doing Baby Boy with Tyrese in 2001. And he's like, he's pretty good in that. Let's see if he can do this as well. And then he shows up and he's doing the I'm hungry thing. He's got good in that. Let's see if he can do this as well. And then he shows up and he's doing the like, I'm hungry thing. He's got that big, beautiful smile that he just throws around like a weapon. He does the ejecto-sito-cause. Like he's so much fun in this movie. I can't remember who wrote it. There's a great article in GQ about this exact movie, like making the case for it recently.

It's really good. It's like a lot of fun. When will Eva Mendes rejoin the franchise thank you thank you amazing question where is eva mendez that is the biggest question in this entire in movies right now it's cameron diaz and eva mendez they both bailed on movies they're both having a family having yeah i think eva mendez is i I believe, also designing clothes and living her best life with Ryan Gosling, which, you know, wouldn't we all if given the opportunity. But it does seem like that character could show back up if she wanted to. It was Katie Walsh who wrote the GQ thing.

I just want to make sure I say the name. Got it. It's really good. I'm looking at Eva Mez's IMDb here. And it's actually her Wikipedia, her list of roles. And it literally says 2014 Lost River. She played a character named Cat. That film was directed by her partner, Ryan Gosling.

And next to it, it says final film role. Yeah. I mean, I do think that she, like Cameron Dia Diaz like announced a retirement or like a step back to pursue other interests like which do what you want but I do think there's an opportunity for her if she ever wants to un-retire which is a thing that actors can do she's she's my first place pick for somebody to return to the franchise after that is Leon from the very first movie who just disappeared. And if we're going to

undead people bring Jesse back too. Take them bullets right out of his chest. Shay, explain to me where you stand on Tokyo Drift right now

because it's a movie that has a huge cult fan base that gets a pretty big shout out in F9. It has some important figures appear in the film.

Where do you stand on it at the moment? Tokyo Drift, the first time I saw it, I didn't like it at all. I didn't like the characters who were in it with the exception of Han. What was his name? Lucas Black. It was just like,

this is not, you're the Friday Night Lights guy. This is not where you belong. You don't have the right thing for this. I just wanted more dom i wanted more brian i didn't understand why we didn't get any of either of them i didn't know anything about like any of the background piece of why we we were moving in this direction but as the franchise has moved along especially over these last few years over the last like

stretch of three movies the further we get from that movie the better it starts to feel the smarter it starts to feel the more influential it starts to feel, the more influential it starts to feel. You really look at it, you're like, oh shit. It was not only brave that they did this with this franchise, but also super sharp. And it just fits every, you could snap everything together with that movie. That's the one movie, if you take it out, all of the rest of it falls apart. And I didn't realize that until the one movie if you take it out all of the rest of it falls apart and I didn't realize that until like the last two years or so I don't think they realized it

until about three movies later either there you go I'm right with them then but that's okay would you put Too Fast Too Furious behind Tokyo Drift?

I have it behind it now yeah as maybe if you would have asked me this 18 months ago Too Fast Too Furious would have been my fifth place pick

with Tokyo Drift right behind it. Now they swapped. I have Too Fast, Too Furious as my sixth place pick. Tokyo Drift is my fifth place pick. It's just moving up slowly but surely. Slowly it's coming. It's inching its way toward that top four. Okay, so given all of the compromises we've made,

here's where we stand with our top 10. You guys ready? Yep. Number 10, Hobbs & Shaw, which I think is actually not our top 10 you guys ready number 10 Hobbs and Shaw which I think is actually not horrible but you guys hate it so I'm willing to roll

with that don't hate it I don't hate it okay okay number nine the fate of the furious don't think it's that successful despite Amanda's love for the

for the baby plane sequence which is pretty dope number eight F9 which we're about to talk about in a little more detail in a moment number seven fast and furious number six fast and furious six number five too fast too furious

number four tokyo drift number three furious seven number two fast five number one the fast and the furious so here's what happened we compromised now no one is happy yeah yeah there's like a there's a line in billions Axelrod says, nobody walks away from a negotiation happy. And that's how I feel right now. her a rebel to the listeners of the world. And what an amazing place to be instead of the authoritarian like me. Anyhow, let's talk about Fast 9. I'll be real with you. I did not like it very much.

I did like a couple of things about it. But I also know that this is a movie that in the parlance of Amanda, it's not really for me. This is not a franchise that is built for me andance of amanda is not really for me you know like this is not a franchise that is built for me and i don't follow it as closely shea obviously you follow much more closely than i do what do you think of the movie i thought it was exactly what i thought it was going to be which is to say they're going to do a lot of big shit they're going to they're going

to get into space they're going to do the magnets thing we're going to see we're going to do the magnets thing. We're going to see the Dom's father's death. They show one second of it in the trailer. I remember the trailer came out, and I was watching it, and I saw the car flipping through the NASCAR car flipping through the thing. And I paused it, and I screenshot it, and then I sent it to Andrew. And I'm like, look, they're going to show it to us. They're going to show it to us. It was like a whole big thing. I wasn't expecting for them to start the movie that way. It was like we're going to get that. They're going to show it to us. They're going to show it to us. It's like a whole big thing. I wouldn't expect them to start the movie that way.

It's like a hardcore way to start it. But all told, you know, I would watch it again. Sure. Amanda, what did you think? Again, I admire the grandiosity of all of these. I like that there is just an unexamined zeal for throwing things together. And so I like those parts of it. I am not the hugest Vin Diesel fan. And Sean, as you noted, when we were walking out of the theater, because we accidentally saw this movie together, which was

really nice. It was me, Sean, and a a bunch of other people like pouring popcorn on each other in the theater, but that's cool. Hopefully they were vaccinated. It's like a pure Vin Diesel movie. And everyone shows up at one point, you know, Helen Mirren's there and Han comes back. And I guess Jason Statham and The Rock aren't in it, which is sad because I do like them,

except for when they're given their own movie. Just a very counterintuitive thing. I suppose that's the power of family. But so I mostly was just there for the set pieces and the stupid jokes and like the very meta stupid jokes. Like they give, you know, they've started giving Roman like, you really want me to do this? Like, isn't this really stupid kind of winking at the audience? And there is some good stuff about that. And I, I like self-aware movies.

I like things that wink at the audience. I think I like things that are like, isn't it silly that we just like have a bunch of magnets in this car and then we're just going to drag all the other cars with the magnets and then it's just going to drag all the other cars with the magnets and then it's just going to smash each other but i do think these movies are kind of reaching the limits of their belief not even believability but of their unbelievability right like there's only so much stupid suspension of disbelief that you can do and i don't know how like how many more like large vehicles are there at this point for them to use like what's left yeah it's good I was gonna say how did y'all feel about John Cena in this I would say mixed for the exact reason that you cited which is it was so clear that he was going

to be a part of the family from the moment he appeared on screen that I had a hard time buying him as this kind of villainous, runty brother trying to, you know, show his elder brother that he is, you know, worthy of the legacy of Dom Toretto and Dom Toretto's father.

But, you know, generally speaking, I'm a fan of John Cena as a professional wrestling figure. So I wasn't mad at him. I just didn't love it. I will say, as someone who is only familiar with professional wrestling by you trying to tell me about it and sending me clips, like, this doesn't seem that different from professional wrestling.

That's a good point. In the sense of, like, everybody's a little bit in on the joke and the absurdity, and that's what's fun about it. That's a good point. In the sense of everybody's a little bit in on the joke and the absurdity and that's what's fun about it. It's true. I think this role is a little bit outside of the persona

that he usually pursues. And so because of that, it doesn't really work until they start teaming up. And then once they're all on the side of the magnets, that's when the movie

starts to sing for me. I didn't like them. I didn't like them. What? You didn't like the magnets? I didn't like them. Oh, no, not the magnets.'s when the movie starts to sing for me uh i did think i didn't like them i didn't like them what the magnets i didn't like them oh no not the magnets the magnets are great i'm talking about john cena oh you you weren't into it it just didn't feel right i love like i watched him in a what was a plane with fire when he was a fireman like this is great this is i'm having a great time watching this movie maybe i like john cena now and then i watch this one and i'm like no nope nope i don't he's in a i don't like the performance he's in a forthcoming superhero movie this summer that

where i found him very enjoyable and a few i felt like it leveraged his sense of humor the suicide squad one yeah yeah yeah when it was so when he pops up in the trailer for that one he's doing like the opposite of this he's doing john's great yeah that's great yeah the john cena like do that that's what i that's what i need i one more question and then you can have control back of the show sean one more question you guys keep saying that you don't think vin diesel is a good actor are you saying you don't know what i said but he's not a good actor as dominic terretto or just like in like in general you don't think it's good? Both.

He's literally... Go ahead, Lee. Go ahead, Amanda. The line readings have gotten more and more preposterous as the series goes on. And obviously the lines have gotten more and more preposterous. You know, there are only so many times you can say like we need to, you know, steal all the world's magnets in order to defeat the supervillain. But he seems to have developed his own idea

of who Dom is and how Dom relates to the series and to this idea of family that I don't think is in line with how anyone else sees it. And it's a little bit alienating for me personally. He sees himself as a noble warrior. And he sees the Dom character as this profound figure of literature. And I see him as a bad actor. I've always thought he was.

He's a turnoff for me in movies. Which I know is not necessarily popular opinion because of the popularity of this series. But I never got it. I never got it. um which i know is not necessarily popular opinion because of the the popularity of this series but i i never got it i never got i think he's been good in some films i think he's in a really good sydney lumet movie called find me guilty he's not bad in boiler room but like whenever i see him try now and you can see it when you take him out of the fast series like i watched bloodshot last year right at the beginning of the pandemic because i was like i just need a new movie i they weren't releasing any more new movies i was freaking out and i was like i'm gonna spend 1999 on bloodshot tonight i didn't watch it i did too

shay it was horrible it was i tried to not talk about movies but it was so i mean sure it looks awesome i liked it guy guy Pearce and Vin Diesel? Sign me up. Guy Pearce is slumming it. Just slumming it. That's why I thought Guy Pearce was going to be worse than Mayor of Easttown because I thought he was channeling his character

from that film and from Without Remorse. What else about Fast 9? Obviously, it's been much speculated that they go to space. Did you think that the going to space was fun? I didn't like it. I wasn't, they didn't,

they didn't do it how I thought they should have done it, which is a silly thing to say, but they just get up there and they're like, just floating. And then they just do like a very low stakes spacewalk. I agree. I like, I was so excited.

I love space movies. Still have never been to space camp and they just kind of were there in orbit for a minute and then they just didn't interact with anything i don't understand i mean i guess it leaves the door open for more space hijinks like maybe the family will actually get a space shuttle and then fight with i mean i guess aliens do you think they're going to be aliens as a part of this franchise before all is said and done? But this was just like, you know, a Gemini five mission.

Like I don't, or Gemini six, whatever. Yeah. So this was the one time where it was like, it felt like they were trying to make it a little bit believable. Like this could actually happen. And I think that's not the tone that we should be going for with these things like if you're gonna put a car in space make it a fucking space car let's go for it yeah like let's do some burnouts or something i don't know but they're just sort of floating there being existential they're cutting back forth between that and like this crazy shit that's

happening on the ground and i just was like come. I don't want anyone listening to take away from this that I don't want the Fast and the Furious franchise to go back to space. I would like them to go back to space, but make it real this time. Bring it, yeah, bring in Sandy Bullock and George Clooney and let's fucking do Gravity and Fast and the Furious together.

One of the challenges of this movie for me, in addition to obviously the heartbreaking loss And let's fucking do Gravity and Fast and the Furious together. One of the challenges of this movie for me, in addition to obviously the heartbreaking loss of Paul Walker no longer being a part of the series, is this movie doesn't have The Rock and Jason Statham, nor does it really have Kurt Russell. And the people I want to see in space are Kurt Russell and The Rock and Jason Statham. Make that the next movie. I mean, that's good.

That's true. What else would you guys want to see from this franchise in the future? Because we are going to get a bunch more of these movies. Anything that you'd like to see, a direction you'd like to see them push in? Maybe like severe emotional dramas like Ingmar Bergman circa 1965? So, I

believe in the beauty of Dom and Letty's relationship, but I just also, really the only time that Vin Diesel came alive to me on screen was also when he came alive to Helen Mirren in the car next to him on the screen. And I'm sensing some tension there. Yeah. And if there's like a way to explore that without disrespecting Letty, who is important, I think that that could be fruitful.

When they kiss, when he kisses Charlize in The Fate of the Furious, I remember just being heartbroken about it. Like, what are you doing, Dom? What are you doing? How could you do this? I do want to see more Letty. More Letty on a motorcycle. The motorcycle bit was awesome. I was really excited about that.

I think what I would like to see the most, there was this thing that happened with heist movies over a 10-year period where they just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and they're like we're we're stealing 40 000 now we're stealing 600 million dollars from seven casinos at the same and it was like it lost its appeal when it got that big and then hell or high water showed up and everyone was like fuck yes that's the thing that's i think reset the whole franchise, and we go back to the street racing thing, and we just do it again. Let's just do it again. We introduce, okay, Dom has a younger brother. Let's give him a younger sister, too.

Let's get Zendaya in here. She's a street racing champion of whatever city you want to put her in, and now she's going to run the team. I think we can, like, let's go that way. Let's get smaller again before we get bigger. So you kind of want to put her in and now she's gonna run the team i think we can like let's go that way let's get smaller again kind of want to tokyo drift it now i wanted to yeah that's that's exactly what i'm saying but i i missed it when they did it the first time with tokyo drift i want to appreciate it in real time yes let's tokyo drift it again get justin lynn let's do it baby i want vin diesel and hel Mirren to have sex in space, but I respect your vision. There you go.

Amanda, you're one of the absolute weirdest people I've ever met. I just don't. I don't know. I'm trying to work with what's in front of me, okay? The rumor is that the next Fast and Furious film is going to be the female-led Fast and Furious movie, so I suspect Letty will play a huge part in that. I suspect Natalie Emanuel, whose name has not come up from Game of Thrones fame, who also plays a pretty big and Furious movie, so I suspect Letty will play a huge part in that. I suspect Natalie Emanuel,

whose name has not come up from Game of Thrones fame, who also plays a pretty big part in this movie, will be a part of that. Charlize Theron, perhaps, could be a part of that. Who would you want to see that has never appeared in these movies, besides Zendaya, Shay, that you think should hit the Fast and Furious franchise? I mean, I'm talking Meryl Streep.

Should she get in the mix? Should Jessica Chastain get in the mix? Jessica Chastain would be an incredible addition when she just shows up doing that dead eye thing that she does. Yeah. Like the Miss Sloan, like that face just making it all the time. That's called the Heartmelter, the Sean heart melter. That's what we call it.

My number one pick is Isabella, I don't know how to say her last name, Merced. The woman who played, the girl who played Dora in Dora the Explorer

and she was in Sicario 2. Her. Yeah. I think she would, let's bring her in. She's like Letty's cousin or something or let her be the villain. I think that she, let's bring her in. She's like Letty's cousin or something, or let her be the villain.

I think that she's really, really good whenever she shows up in a thing. I would like to see her. Let's bring her in. Great pull. Amanda, anybody else you'd want to see in this next film? To keep in the Oscar winners, getting their Czech tradition,

Daniel Kaluuya, let's bring him in. Oh, shit. Right, and I think he probably, getting their check tradition, Daniel Kaluuya, let's bring him in. Oh shit. Right. And I think he probably, I mean, I could see him working with Charlize, but that doesn't really how work for the villain. So he's probably a villain that has to become a part of the family at some

point. But you know, as, as they all do as, as, as we, as hopefully we all one day will. But I,

I think he would be great well we know from his work in widows that uh daniel kaluuya can do menacing with the best of them so so i like that i pick a lot can i can i make one more suggestion sure please do what's what's happening with julia butters who played trudy in once upon a time in hollywood you know the little eight-year-old girl i feel like she just get cast in steven spiel biopic about himself? Oh, that's fantastic. Well, the only way to follow that up is to be an 11-year-old supervillain in a Fast and Furious movie. Guys, any closing thoughts on Fast and Furious movies? Shay, what do you want to say about this franchise you've never been able to say? I'm not going to say anything I haven't said. I'm just going to say what I

always say, and that's that I love it. Even in its worst moments, those worst moments are still really, really good and really, really fun. And if you make 25 of these movies, I will be there on 25 opening nights with my family to watch them each time. Amanda, you got to yell about the bank heist in Rio a few more times today. So this has been a mitzvah. I mean, but they wanted the money, right? And it was in the safe. And they couldn't get in the safe. So they just hitched their cars to it and took the safe with them. It's incredible problem solving. We should teach this in schools. It's so good. The one thing that we haven't said about that specific scene is at the end of the movie when they show them opening the safe and all the money falls out and then we get a shot of all their faces.

That is the most I have ever believed that they were really getting the money that they robbed. The way that they react to it, I just felt like they got it. They earned it. They're all multi-millionaires now. It just made me really happy. I love it. Thank you so much, guys, for doing the show.

Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner. Next week on The Big Picture, we have a very special guest joining the show, one of my favorite filmmakers of all time. How's that for a tease? We'll see you then. Thank you.