The Big Picture - ‘Ferrari’ and Top Five Michael Mann Movies

Episode Date: December 26, 2023

Sean and Amanda are joined by The Ringer’s Michael Mann aficionado Chris Ryan to discuss one of the year’s best and most anticipated movies: ‘Ferrari’ (1:00). They discuss the successes and failures of the casting, how transfixing Adam Driver is at the center of the frame, where this slots into the Mann oeuvre, and whether it will (or should) be Mann’s last film. Then, they each share their five favorite Michael Mann movies (41:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Galaxy lights, Coachella, lightning bolt necklaces. 2023 was the year of Scandival. On March 3rd, one cheating scandal launched a reality TV investigation that generated hundreds of conspiracy theories, thousands of podcast episodes, and millions of dollars in revenue. I'm Jodi Walker, host of An American Scandival. One retrospective story told in three salacious parts. Listen December 26th on the Ringer Reality feed. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about old man Ferrari. Michael Mann finally has a new film in the world there is only one person to call to talk about that film and that's bill simmons but he couldn't make it so who's here it's chris ryan what's up i have a question for you just right off the top which one between amanda and i uh who's your deadly passion and who is your terrible joy i think we know that amanda is my terrible joy i think that that's long understood that there's no way you of course are my deadly passion you are my junk brother i'm gonna get you killed one day yeah let's feel that way sometimes how exciting to have a michael mann movie there's been a lot of speculation about this film because it's been in the works for a very long time amanda had the great fortune of seeing this film in in the country yeah sure of

what country was it it was italy italy yeah specifically this is the first film that i saw at the venice film festival yeah it just really kicked it off and then i heard a lot of italian people grumbling um about the film yeah i would say that say that the Italians aren't the number one fan base of this movie. I see. But fortunately, though I spent a lot of time there this summer and appreciate their culture, I'm not Italian. I wonder if they watched this movie and they got Frank Sabatka'd. They were like, we used to make shit in this country. Ah, interesting.

They watched that and they were like, this was truly glory days for Italian industry. Well, it reminds me of the discontent flowing out of the nation of France about the film Napoleon. There's some frustration with the way that their country's history has been portrayed in that movie. That's on them, respectfully. I don't think that there's any negative portrayal of the greatness of Enzo Ferrari or the complicated greatness of Enzo Ferrari in this movie. I think it's more that Adam Driver is playing an Italian giant. And there are some other individuals playing Italians. Probably get to them.

That we'll discuss. I've been waiting four months to discuss that. We are ready to discuss it today. We will dive deep into the film Ferrari. We will also give our top five favorite Michael Mann movies, which for Chris was like what? How did that feel to you to have to pick your five favorites?

Honestly, I'll never give birth, but it's the closest. It's what I imagine it's like. I think Amanda appreciates that. It's to go through this incredible amount of pain, but then to have a beautiful life in your hands

and that life is heat. It's Christian Harris. Neil McCauley abandoning a woman. What if you gave birth and and Neil McCauley your baby looked like

Neil McCauley. He was like wearing like a crisp white shirt. That would be cute, actually. Yeah. I don't know how we circle back to Ferrari, but I'm going to try. Ferrari is what I'm calling a microscope biopic. I think that there's a kind of subgenre of biopics.

You're coining this term. I'm coining this right here for us. You know, you and I are a little bit uncomfortable, I would say, with the life spanning, like try to fit it all into 2.3 hours. Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't usually work. Unless it's Walk Hard, the Dewey Cox story. Good point, right.

If you're subverting it by making fun of it, then it works. But this is, I think, a wise way to approach the life of someone as huge as Enzo Ferrari, which is to look at basically just a few months in one year of his life. 1957, a critical year for Ferrari. It's a movie that man's been wanting to make. I guess he started talking with Sidney Pollack about this movie in the 90s, and it really started getting going in 2000. And it's been a long road, sorry for the pun there, to get this adaptation of Enzo Ferrari, The Man, The Cars, The Races, The Machine by Brock Yates out there.

In fact, Troy Kennedy Martin, the man who wrote the screenplay for this film, passed away in 2009, which is just very strange and unusual in the world of movies. But it does star Adam Driver as Ferrari, Penelope Cruz as his wife, Laura, Shailene Woodley as his, Michael Mann says, not mistress, as his other family's female lead. She plays Lena. Sarah Gaddon. Gabrielle Leone. Jack O'Connell. Patrick Dempsey.

Chris. Yeah. Did you like Ferrari? Is this where we're at? Yeah. I really liked Ferrari. So I obviously put Ferrari in my top five when we did the end of the year movie list.

This was such an incredibly deeply satisfying movie for me. And part of I've been thinking about this, you know, I think as we make podcasts about culture a lot, we have a tendency to either say I loved it or I hated it. Like it's good podcasting to sort of be on the extremes of opinion. There are flaws in this film. There are performances that I would love to have seen an alternate performer try that role. But there is something about Ferrari

that is exactly why I love going to the movies. That is so transporting. And for two hours, two and a half hours, you feel like you are in another world and you just don't want to leave. You want to eat the food. You want to wear the suits. You want to walk in and out of the rooms.

You want Penelope Cruz to point a gun at you. You want cars to zoom by. You know, with the cacophonous speakers rattling. Like if this is his last feature film, I think he went out on a high note. And I adored this movie. Amanda, what'd you think? I really liked it.

I had a great time. There is something very, to Chris's point, like, visceral about this movie. I feel like the thing that I texted you guys after I saw it was just, like, Adam Driver is, like, a very large man. And it just, thing that I texted you guys after I saw it was just like Adam Driver is like a very large man and it just, but that has stayed with me. You like feel his physical presence and so

much of this, I think, very good performance is he fills up the screen, as do the cars, as does like all of the vroom vroom, Bobby, I see you. And it's so, the the food and so it was immersive it was inviting to me as a person who does not know how F1 works at all so that that

was happy there was like something just like actually like almost artful to not almost somewhat something actually artful to wave the car's room around. You know, in general, things go fast is a type of movie making that I like a lot. You know, there's real beauty in that for me. So it hits that button. I really have some notes about one branch of the Ferrari family. And also about the ending, which you and I talked a little bit about it, but yeah, it's great.

I liked it too. I think what you just said, Chris, resonates with me, which is this feels in many ways like a fitting final film for Mann. I hope it's not. I hope it's not either. And obviously he's been publicly talking about his desire to find a way to adapt his novel of Heat

to the sequel and prequel to Heat. We'll see if he gets the chance to do that. Michael Mann is 80 years old, so it's hard to say. He's obviously begun a love affair like so many auteurs in the last 10 years have with Adam Driver, and he's really become fascinated by Driver. And you can tell that he's fascinated by him in this movie, because as you said, Amanda, like he frames him as powerfully as he perceived Ferrari to be in real life. Man, when he talks about Ferrari, clearly has a lot of admiration and maybe is even modeling some of his own personal iconography

against Ferrari, who is this kind of big, full-bodied, very kind of quiet but powerfully defiant person who is always thinking about the way that Italy saw him and saw what he was making. And so this is a movie about a person who has a self-consciousness about that. And it's not just, this isn't Bohemian Rhapsody. It's not just like, God, Freddie Mercury was perfect. This is a man of contradictions, of conflicts, at a time of crisis really in his life, in the aftermath of the death of his son. That's really how the story is framed. And his wife, Laura,

who's played by Penelope Cruz, they're coming apart. He's got another family with Shailene Woodley's character. The film opens, I think, interestingly and quietly in Shailene Woodley's home. Beautiful home.

Beautiful home. And he's escaping this home as quietly as possible not to disrupt everybody for a very loud movie. It's a very gentle introduction into this stage of Ferrari's life. It's an imperfect movie, but it's damn good.

And it's fully loaded with the man care package. All the themes of men pushing themselves as hard as they can with the tools that they are obsessed with to achieve greatness. Men casting women aside because they keep getting in the way of his ability to achieve like all of these very clear hallmarks of his career, kind of regardless of how you feel about those themes. He's fully leaning into that stuff after I think getting a little distracted in the last like 10 or 15 years by personal fascinations that didn't necessarily fully fit the things that most

interested him. So I thought I would just mention two things that really leap off the screen for me. Amanda, you were talking about the go fast genre, which man has made several films in this genre. I would say that one of my favorite parts about Ferrari and that one of the things that I was mesmerized by was how much the domestic scenes also go fast. So Ferrari is always entering or leaving a room. He is ending a conversation to go to a next conversation. He talks fairly quickly. He manipulates people so that they are doing the things at the tempo that he wants them to. People are often saying, like, we need this by this deadline.

And he's like, no, I will extend the deadline or shorten the deadline. You know, like getting his child baptized or confirmed. He's just like, well, we'll just put off the baptism. She's like, no, it has to happen today. He's like, tomorrow. You know, like there's always this negotiating going on. And I think it gives the movie like gasoline.

Like, it's just like the whole thing is charged up. And another thing is, is we always talk about Michael Mann as this visual stylist, probably one of the most, you know, in terms of his personal aesthetic, like almost inimitable, like people can try and rip him off. all the way to the sort of pinhole cameras of Black Hat. We often talk about him as a visual artist. This has the best script he's worked with since Insider, and I imagine he did a lot of work on it. I thought the dialogue was wonderful in this movie and deep and bared repeat viewings of scenes to kind of notice the nuances of what, what the, what was being said.

And I loved that. I loved being stimulated in a different way by a Michael Mann movie in the sense. It did feel like he was getting back to some of the writing that made that the films, you know, starting with thief all the way roughly through like the early two thousands,

like his signature movies. Those movies are of course like very visual and mood-oriented. But he's a great writer. That's what I was going to say. And he's a great writer of dialogue, and there's some great dialogue in this movie. I also really liked what the critic, Bill J. Abiri, said about this movie,

which is that it is, as Chris said, much more classical and composed and the digital abstractions of Black Hat and Public Enemies and Miami Vice and Collateral, which are almost about him experimenting with a new form of filmmaking. This is a fusion of those two things. And it feels like the most coherent fusion he's

had yet for me personally. It's back to basics. But like elevated Michael Mann basics. It's also, you know, it makes sense respectfully to Chris and Black Hat, which I listened to that. Rewatchables. I didn't hear that one. It was really good. I also listened to The Reheat this I didn't hear that one I it was it was really good I also listened to the reheat this morning because I had a longer commute and that and

that was really good as well um which not the three heat the reheat not the three heat the second heat the one before the Michael Mann yes it was to celebrate a hundred episodes what oh what did I bring up oh black hat. But that movie doesn't make any sense. Yep. You know? So respectfully, you've tried your best. Yeah. And Sean rewatched it recently. I did.

Yeah. Didn't work for me. Yeah. I mean, the version of it that's in my head certainly works. Right. Anyway. I tried to get that version out of my head and onto that podcast. You made a sincere effort. We respect your efforts always here.

Can we go back to the microscopic biopic? Are you doing biopic or biopic? I don't know what it is. I say microscope biopic. Biopic. Yeah. I kind of like the way biopic sounds, but that's fine. Okay. I know it's not. Microscopic biopic is cool. Right. Yeah. But it's a biopic. It is. Yeah. I feel like we've done this many times. Have we not? This is on me. This is my bad. Okay.

Yeah. It's like I mispronounce it. I think people are just like, this makes me want to throw myself out a window when you do this. So I'm sorry to all the listeners for saying biopic. This is what Napoleon should have been. Like the compression of the narrative of this story,

I think gives it such energy. You really get a sense that this is an interesting historical moment for Italy as it's emerging out of World War II, that he is this huge celebrity. He's constantly being followed by photographers and journalists. His relationship to the press is hilarious, frankly.

It's really good. But I thought that the idea of making it this sort of like, here are the crucial few months for this guy, both personally and professionally. You get a sense really of like, even if you don't understand, which I don't either, some of the racing jargon, or really what's at stake if he wins the Mille Miglia kind of thing. You really understand where you are and when it is and how long it's been and what needs to be decided in a certain amount of time for something like Napoleon.

And I think for a lot of, of these more recent, like a lifetime in a film movies that we've been doing, it just doesn't have that. That compression is really necessary. I mean, Steve Jobs obviously had, maybe did the best job of this by kind of splitting the atom by saying, we're going to take the whole layout, but we're going to only do the moment. And it's going to have this kind of dramatic,

this dramatic tension to it. But man, I thought Mann's decision to kind of set it in this very compressed period of time was ingenious. I like there were two, there were essentially two flashbacks. The first appears at the very beginning of the film where we see Adam Driver as a young Ferrari as a race car driver. And it is actually, it reminded me a bit of the opening sequence of The Killers of the Flower Moon where it's kind of shot in this old school like silent film style.

But it's very quick and very impressionistic. And then we flash to 57. And then we do at a certain point go back when he's kind of having a reminiscence at the opera, which is a beautiful scene. And aside from that,

it is very much at this time, this critical time for Ferrari where it seems like the money's running out, his marriage is falling apart. He needs to figure out how to retain Ferrari's greatness as a racing team, but also figure

out a way to do what he really kind of invented, which is make high-performance sports cars commercially viable. Like, that's really his incredible innovation in addition to, like, design and the coolness of Ferrari. And so it is this, like, perfect decision in terms of timing for when to tell his story. And it also gives you what I think a lot of the great auteur movies this year have given us, which is that they are very easily projected onto the experience of the filmmaker. Which is like, Enzo Ferrari is Michael Mann.

He has all these department heads, all these writers, all these actors who all report to him and work for him. And he builds a team, and together they make something great. But he gets the credit, which is something that we valorize on the show. But, you know, you could see what is appealing about that for man because so much of this movie is about the Alfonso de Portago joining the team and who these racers are. And we don't really, under most movie circumstances, the man behind the wheel would be the star, like the lead character.

And this is an unusual case where some of the most thrilling sequences of the movie are happening while we are looking at Ferrari like solemnly observing cars going fast. And that's unusual. And yet it works for me.

And maybe, I think Driver gets a lot of credit for that. Like he really, as you said, he really holds the screen so well. Even the way he's sticking out his belly, it is framed for him to be holding those scenes. One of the best scenes in the movie is just this quick one where most of the town is at mass, and they can hear the starter gun going off when maserati is testing a

a new car and all of the men pull out stopwatches in church and hit them and it's like that's more exciting than watching the car go around yeah watching these like old italian guys look at stopwatches um i think the movie probably for me does not work though if Penelope Cruz is not in the movie. So she very broadly announces herself by shooting a gun at Enzo after he's returned home from his mistress's home. Not mistress. The lady of the manor of his second family. Yeah, exactly. There you go. What's a better word for that?

I have no idea. My other wife okay my other wife my other wife did they get married I don't know if they got maybe they did get married eventually Lena and him

yeah I think they did okay yeah because she they get married and then do they get married

or does he just recognize the but he doesn't get to change his name until Laura dies yeah and she doesn't die until the 70s.

You're referring to Piero, his illegitimate son, Piero. I am a huge Penelope Cruz fan. I find that most of her best performances are not in English. The Penelope Cruz experience in an Almodovar film versus an American production, I find to be pretty, the chasm is wide for me personally. This felt the closest she had gotten to an Almodovar performance

in an American production. There's one scene in particular about halfway through the film where things really come to pass between them where they're talking about the death of Dino, their son. And she is like, fuck it, like restrictor plate off.

Like we are, I'm going to go as hard as i possibly can i can't it reminded me a little bit of diana venora in heat where she's just like letting it loose oh yeah um and so i really i loved her in this and i loved her like confronting drivers like overbearing confidence as the framework for that character uh so I don't know. What did you think of Penelope Cruz? I love her. She's wonderful. I always both admire and am a little disappointed

when someone as naturally beautiful as Penelope Cruz is made to look old and washed aside, which is, I suppose, necessary for the role. And she commits to it. When you're as beautiful as penelope cruz you can you have no fear i guess about just like makeup on to give her bags under her eyes when she doesn't actually have them right but it's like you can put as many bags on penelope cruz as you want and you like can still see the you know the the insane beauty shining through it's like this character is better than most wife characters

um in michael man movies and in movies at large respectfully i'm trying to think if there's that many actual wives in michael man movies right you know partners yeah ladies of the manor whatever you know yeah second wives yeah it's like it is a fairly classic my wife like at home is nagging me and like keeping me from greatness role yes but there are at least some financial complexities to it and the um and the the death of their son is she she does it's very sad but she handles beautifully great walk la Laura's walk is awesome. It's a really cool thing Cruz is doing, and I kind of wonder whether or not it's basically broadcasting that the death of her son

is making her prematurely old. And so she is trapped living with her mother-in-law, who also doesn't like Kenzo. And they are essentially, she feels like she is becoming that old woman prematurely. And Shailene Woodley, who plays

the other woman in this case, is gliding around this beautiful country home that Ferrari has bought for her. And Laura is essentially the accountant and is keeping this business afloat for the most part and is trapped by this name

and this family that doesn't exist. It's like she's just basically living in a haunted life. Let's talk about Shailene Woodley. I tend to like her as a performer. She's been in a lot of movies, not recently,

but been in movies where I've really liked the energy that she brings. I don't want to dump on her too hard here. I think it's just the case of being wildly miscast. One of just the most puzzling casting decisions in recent memory. To the point of distraction, honestly, for me, where it takes you out of a movie where Driver transforms. And she has a hard time getting out of her inherent Shailene woodliness. And she's doing like notes of Italian intonation, but not really ever going for it in a way where Driver,

even though his accent is kind of all over the place in the movie, his physical bearing is so perfect that you just go with it. And I think she's supposed to be like flower child Italian, right? You know, it's like post-war, she's like the progressive. Exactly. But, and Shailene Woodley personally, I think has a lot of experience with alternative modalities, as you might say. So she's bringing some of that, but it's like not the right alternative modality. Will you please write a monograph about the work of Shailene Woodley called Alternative Modalities? You're not watching enough goop Instagram. That was just like, that was right there. Yeah, I don't know. She's just like in a different movie about like a Midwestern wife in the 80s.

I don't blame her. You know? It's like not, yeah, it's not her fault. I feel like it's man's job to get everybody playing in tune with one another. He has a Spanish woman playing an Italian woman, an American guy playing an Italian guy, and an American woman playing an Italian woman.

Yeah. Of, I think, supposed to be, to Amanda's point, a broader generational gap than is maybe, like, clear from just looking at these beautiful people. Yes.

There's a challenge in the movie because Driver is 39 playing 59. Penelope Cruz is 49 playing 59. And Shailene Woodley's 32 playing what?

Like, 27? I mean, how old'sene Woodley's 32 playing what? Like 27? I mean, how old's Piero? I don't know. Like 33? Well, no, he's about to be confirmed. So he's like probably, what, 11, 12? Yeah, I think that's right. So I have to say, I quite liked the scenes.

I agree. Between Adam Driver and Shailene Woodley and Piero, I thought they were very well written. I thought she never becomes shrill like she she kind of has in the moment I kind of like there's like a

part of me that's like oh god like like people are gonna kill this accent and like she just drops it and becomes like

kind of a Marin County like cool lady for a while but you know I think she also does good stuff like it's really fun like watching her like of a Marin County like lady for a while. But, you know, I think she also does good stuff.

Like it's really fun like watching her like do her stockings while she's arguing with him about the confirmation and stuff like that. Like she is in it. Like I feel like she does. That looks like Instagram to me,

but it's okay. You know? When she's doing her stockings? Yeah, like just ladies who craft. I didn't know that that was a well i mean it's not like specifically the stock not filmed by michael mann and eric mr schmidt um uh can we talk about the other like the other casting things that almost happened for this film that you put in the document because i didn't know some of these. It's a pretty interesting

history of almosts. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't know that all of them would have worked. Well, you wanted to talk about this too, I think. Yeah.

So, which is, I'm like trying to divert it from Shailene Woodley. Like, I don't think that it's a fault. Well, it just seems kind of like the casting is like throwing a lot

of things at the wall here and seeing what sticks. It was very like, Shailene Woodley's available for eight days. Can we get her? Yeah. It feels that way.

So originally when the film was being conceived, Sidney Pollack and Michael Mann had identified Christian Bale as Ferrari. Now it would have been a very similar situation where Christian Bale would have been younger, playing older, and he would have had to have gained a lot of weight. I don't know how much weight Driver gained. He looks big, but he always looks kind of big. Christian Bale is much more thin. I think it's just because we just watched the Pelican brief.

But he has the choo-choo naturally built and then sticking a pillow around the midsection. I think that when they do shots and then the high-waisted pants, it helps. Bale eventually decided for health reasons he didn't want to gain weight for the part so he stepped aside. And then in 2017 Hugh Jackman

and Noomi Rapace were going to join the film. I have Noomi Rapace is black licorice to me. Like I can't I can't see or hear

Noomi Rapace without being like this isn't working for me. She's just an actor I've never been able to get on a wavelength with. Hugh Jackman.

Even in Prometheus? I make an exception because that's such a great character but even then I still don't I don't love her as an It's like if Amy Simons or Catherine

Waterston had done Prometheus in the Noomi Rapace role I think that movie would have been like 9% better. Yes and maybe a bigger hit too but that's

another story. Obviously she got very famous from the Dragon Tattoo films but she's kind of fallen out, she got very famous from the dragon tattoo films, but she's kind of fallen out of Hollywood, I think, because I don't know why that is. Hugh Jackman was going to play Ferrari.

I think that that would have been all wrong, but interesting. I don't know that he has... I don't... Maybe he does have the kind of internal rage, discontent, sadness that is needed for Ferrari. He certainly taps that into that in Prisoners. Prisoners.

That's the only time I can think of him not doing like, let's put on a show. Yeah. Which is, that's more his energy. Especially when you're doing an Italian accent, you can start veering into stereotype very quickly. Yeah. So I think they nailed it with Driver. I do as well. That worked out, but it's, it's just like, there are a lot of things that just weird roads that it could have gone down. Hugh Jackman in a new mirror pass movie would

have been odd. I'll just say, I don't even know if I said this when I was like, I like this movie. He's incredible in this. Like I, I legitimately, I know he has no shot at winning the Oscar this year. In my, in my book, this is the best performance I saw this year. I think that this is a movie star performance, like on a big time level, like you are like every, you follow him through the frame every time he's walking, when he's standing at the window and Laura's like in deep focus behind him it's like you're just staring at Adam Driver instead of Penelope Cruz at least I was the you've talked about like his physical command of the frame it is pretty pretty amazing and I you know he has been I was talking about this the other day with Andy but like I love his resume so much but

sometimes in the moment you could be like what are are you doing, bud? You're going to make like a real charming movie? Like, you know, white noise. He kind of plays down his like looks and his youth. 65 was pretty stupid. I was kind of waiting for like a good movie from him and I really got it. Yeah, it has been. I mean, he's very daring. You know, he made a net, you know, like he really is willing to try to do unusual things what's so fascinating is that he clearly feels the same way about this experience at you know at least like he to the point of defensiveness which is unusual for him yeah but he has been like out there from the beginning and Ferrari had a waiver during the SAG you know strike so he was at Venice but like he is a person who is reticent in um interviews or often you know, strikes. So he was at Venice, but like, he is a person who is reticent in, um, interviews or often, you know, he doesn't like the sales as much, which is completely his right

and doesn't like watching himself. And he has just been like, you know, I like worked with Michael Mann and that was like the greatest experience of my life. And this is so important, you know, they like really had a bond, which in many ways just suggests that maybe like Adam Driver is one of us, you know, or one of you guys and that's cool he clearly loves man but he loved it and it's um it's it's really noticeable yeah yeah i mean i i think it's a big reason why the movie works is he's just fully committed um there's a scene in the movie that is one of the best scenes of the year and it has nothing to do with cars it's when the team comes together before the mila mila and he is so disappointed they've done a practice sort of practice lap yeah and he sits down with the race team to really discold them and it is like the

ultimate fusion of writing and performance um it is like some of the best i i don't know if troy kennedy martin wrote this it feels like like Michael Mann wrote it. It is the most Michael Mann speech I've heard in many, many years. But there are all of these great moments. When he's describing the opposing team, he describes them as men with a brutal determination to win a cruel emptiness in their stomachs. He says, you have to ask yourself, am I a sportsman or a competitor? We all know it's our deadly passion our terrible joy i was like it's i was vibrating during this scene because driver's so good basically like if you race for me do not step on the brakes yes you have to give your life to be great there there's a line so it's basically de portago who's this newer racer for the ferrari team has been racing against this maserati racer

i think uh frenchman and there's a great line I can't remember verbatim which is basically like he's describing Dave Portago's thought process as they are both like kind of neck and neck going into a turn and he's like

and you start worrying about whether the French the nation of France will hate you and it's like he is not worrying about that about you you know

and it's just like ah you motherfucker I love this stuff so much it's really really really good yeah it's really really, ah, you motherfucker. I love this stuff so much. It's really, really, really good. It's really, really good. You know, can I just throw this out here? I've been thinking

about this a lot. You were talking about the way in which the film mirrors man, you know, like he probably sees himself

as a Ferrari type. I'm sure some of the crew probably see him as a Ferrari type in good and bad ways. Those stories are legion, yeah. Yeah.

I have been deeply fascinated by the trajectory of his early career seeing if you say he sees himself as this as the james conn character in thief a laborer you know a guy who is like consumed with what other people are taking out of his pocket about whether what the ethics and rules are of his work and to get so far towards the end of his pocket about what the ethics and rules are of his work. And to get so far towards the end of his career, and he is the CEO, and he is management, and everybody is fucking up his money by not doing their job as well as he wants them to. And his wives are driving him crazy,

and these kids, basically the drivers, don't do exactly what he needs them to do isn't it an amazing like transformation over the course of what 40 fucking years of filmmaking to be he got old it's like he used to get mad at the Robert Prosky's of the world for for manipulating him and now he's like nobody does things the way I want them to do them I think it's really insightful it comes for us all yeah yeah I think there's also something about the decision making that we see Ferrari make that is very kind of mercurial and instantaneous where he's like you won't be driving this car you'll be driving this car now and you're like oh that's Michael Mann

on set you know like you can it's so easy to comport that idea onto it and it deepens the movie for me in a lot of ways. Feeling him relating to this brilliant but troubled man. Just a very good movie in a year of very good movies. Is it Michael Mann's best movie?

Of course not. But it is, I thought it was fun, deep, compelling. You know, would I have liked for them to have had $10 million

more for the CGI? I would. Does it make the movie significantly worse for me? It does not. I think, obviously, we saw that clip of Driver vociferously telling someone, fuck you, and they criticized some of the crash scenes. I thought the crash scenes worked.

I was taken aback by them. And it was like a full gasp in their room. So, yes, the CGI was was i mean like we want everyone to have 10 million dollars more for cgi which is just like a larger we can talk about that some other time you know i don't know what's going on over there i mean i do but yeah i'd like to get back to just practical crashes without having to die now i think it would have been exciting to watch him try to do that but that's also extraordinarily dangerous stuff so it's a challenge i don't know any any closing thoughts on ferrari before we do our top fives i wonder i i hate to end on this note but what the likely box office disappointment that this

will be means for not only man making features i suppose if he's like i'll make heat too i'm sure somebody will give him the money for it especially if all of Hollywood's young actors are like pick me pick me uh but it's interesting I was going through his box office and he was a very reliable box office stalwart like his films are uh the money is well spent when you spend your money on a Michael Mann movie if you're a studio and I think he's been finding it increasingly difficult to get those things funded to make things under a certain amount of a budget like when you're watching this film it almost made me melancholy because I was looking at like I imagine what the wardrobe for this movie like how much thought went into like

every single person's outfit for every single scene and what the mechanics were wearing and what this guy would be wearing his white sweater as he drives his yellow car into this blue cobblestone driveway and you're like he thought about that like that was a detail that was like really probably mulled over and researched and sourced from like we have to get this kind of clothing. And maybe 17% of the people watching Ferrari are going to give a shit about that. You know what I mean? Like they probably, if like ideally you're going to this movie,

you get that full experience. But a lot of people are probably going to be like, this is going to be like, the cars are going to go around, right? Like let's check this out. I like Adam Driver. The movie does give you that. It's a total dad movie.

Dad should go see this movie on Christmas. Take your dad. But there is a degree of which you that it's a total dad yeah dad should go see this video christmas take your dad but uh there is there is a degree of which i hate being to catastrophize where i'm like this is probably one of the last times we're gonna see this much care and thought put into a movie that you're doing the work for us here this is usually what amanda and i have to do the the woe is us but when it when it comes for michael mann that's when you two have been bitten by the box office demon. Well, it's, I wonder whether or not, you know, if he's 10 years younger and makes works, I don't know, a little bit like faster or cheaper.

Like, you know, he could probably, I'm sure that there, it just doesn't seem like he's getting the Viking funeral that Scorsese is getting, you know? Even though this movie, I mean, this movie is also about legacy, right? Yeah. Like, it's there in the text, but. I wonder about the release date. Like, is Christmas the right time for this movie? Oh, I mean, you could keep me here all day talking about how I don't understand why all the good movies come out in six weeks, including most, like, major holidays where it might be hard. You know, I think that this is actually a late summer movie to me.

It does feel like it, right? This felt like it should have had the Martian spot. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I don't know, though. I mean, you just said take your dad to this. Yeah.

Dads are in August, right? They have August time. But I can't take my dad in August. That's true. And I actually could take my dad this holiday season to see Ferrari. Will you? August. That's true. And I actually could take my dad this holiday season to see Ferrari. He doesn't know because he prefers to watch things at home on his streaming service now and time them. His own personal streaming service? No, but basically, yes. My dad is like the number one churn guy. My dad is like strategizing. So like he's going to find out. He will definitely want to see Ferrari.

He loves Heat. But he'll be like, okay, when is Ferrari going to be available on which streaming device? And, like, what other films can I watch there to make that one month worthwhile? So, he'll sign up for Crunchyroll for one month to watch Heat on it? Yes. Okay. Yeah, he will. That's cool.

And I'm like, I work for a streaming service, Dad. Let me ask you a question what was it like for you to make a Michael Mann top 5 so I made a top 4 and as a Christmas gift I was going to let you guys put my number 5

on there because I have 4 that I felt really strongly about and then I'm shocked to see the absence of this film on your as number 5

which one are you not a Last of the Mohicans fan I was going to be like I could put Last of the Mohicans on because I saw it you know when I was 12 or be like, I could put Last of the Mohicans on because I saw it, you know, when I was 12 or whatever. Yeah.

And it's obviously like very beautiful, but I don't feel as connected to Last of the Mohicans to, I just, I thought it would be like a nice Christmas gift for you. To be able to choose for you? Well, is there something that was, you know, what was your number six? You want to put it at my number five? Anyway, just to say, I have four movies that I've seen many times and feel very strongly about.

One of them, almost entirely by association. How do you feel about Calderon's Return, the double episode of Miami Vice from 1984? I haven't seen that one. I haven't seen that one.

Did you guys do a rewatchables about that? We sure did. Yeah. You know what? I've listened to almost every rewatchables, but I did skip that one. We haven't done Pulp Fiction on a rewatchables about that yeah you know what I've listened to almost every rewatchables but I did skip that one

we haven't done Pulp Fiction on the rewatchables but we have done Calderon's Return and by we I mean Chris and Bill jerking each other off

for 90 minutes why don't we come alive to a cold east coast city a cold weather tour in a hot pair of pants. The summation of my experience watching Michael Mann movies can, is best conveyed by a throwaway line on the reheat,

which I listened to this morning, which is they're going through the Oscar nominations in 1995 and talking about all the movies they hated that got nominated for Oscars instead of Heat, including Apollo 13 and Sense and Sensibility, which I heard you. And then,

they're, like, going through all the acting categories and they're just like, here's who should've been nominated in Best Supporting. Here's Best Actor.

Reigngrow, Best Supporting. And then, Bill, Bill very quickly is like, well, Best Actress doesn't really apply in Heat. Like, let's keep going and I was just like yep

yep yep yep what about Portman I disagree Judd is fantastic I love Judd in that movie what about well forget it

doesn't matter right also a young Natalie Portman getting the overacting award oh yeah just also really spoke to she was pained

she had trauma sure that's right she was pained she was moving that head around, that's right. She was pained. She was moving that head around. Who can relate? She couldn't find her earrings. Anyway, I like Michael. The craft is undeniable and also it's helpful to have tools to

understand the people you're closest to in life. I thank Michael Mann for that every day. I'll never forget when I interviewed Joanna Hogg in 2021 and I was like, what's the last great thing you've seen? And she said, heat. I was like, this is, that's why you are the goat. Why don't we start with me and Chris, our number five is me and Chris and you're number two, Amanda. This is very high on your list, which is collateral, which is the first of the digital experimentations um a pretty i would say a pretty profound evolution in in modern filmmaking it's unfortunate that so many shitty directors have

tried to do what this movie does because they obviously can't make it look and feel the way that man is able to but it's a it's a personal favorite of mine because it is just an incredible two-hander like one of the great two-handed acting performances of the 21st century between tom cruise truly doing something that he resisted doing for a long time which is playing against type and playing the heavy and jamie fox giving i think a very restrained um immersive performance yeah um a classic all-in-one night crime movie the birthplace of yo homie, Is That My Briefcase? My favorite line reading of 2004. A brief appearance of Mark Ruffalo with a goatee.

Right, yeah. He's excellent. Him and Pete Berg are partners in this. Try to track down Max and Vincent. What do you love about Collateral? I think, much like Ferrari, the compression. Like the idea that these two guys are stuck together for a night, that one way or another this is going to end when the sun comes up.

I love its depictions of Los Angeles traffic patterns, something I think about a lot. Not the most accurate representation of that, I would say. No, it's not. And I think that the idea, it's one of those films that comes along too rarely where the location city becomes a character itself. And the idea of LA at night, which honestly is a different animal from LA during the day, becomes this like blinking god in the movie that I just, I love. For me, it's the cruise of it all.

I mean, the LA at night as well, especially since I have moved to Los Angeles and it is like my movie map of LA is probably like clueless collateral. Uh, once upon a time in Hollywood, now that it's, you know, every time I'm driving, um,

the fucking lights. Well, the fucking lights. And also like on, um, like Barham, you know, like the forest lawn cemetery.

Yeah. Like anyway. Um barum you know like the forest lawn cemetery yeah like anyway um but you know in the same way that heat is like pacino and deniro like together finally like two titans of of movies in our life well you know for me tom cruise is like the titans of movies and so tom cruise like goes bad is um just like extremely memorable and exciting. Vincent is an incredible character. Yeah. And it's a really

really fun performance. This film also features Audioslave. It does. The musical stylings of Audioslave. And Miles Davis in some ways.

Yes. It does certainly feature Tom Cruise talking about his appreciation for jazz which one of the weirdest scenes of the 2000s. Love Collateral. Terrific movie. Did we we did we did do this on the rewatchables the weirdest scenes of the 2000s. Love Collateral. Terrific movie.

Did we, we did, we did do this on the rewatchables? It's in the 99 movies. Is it? No, it was a 2004 movie. The Insider is in the 99 movies.

Oh, we did Collateral. Yeah, we had a good time with it. No recollection of that whatsoever. Michael Mann, not too amused when Bill and I brought up Los Angeles traffic, the way he represents Los Angeles traffic.

I see. We were just like how the fuck are you going to get from LAX to downtown in 20 minutes and he was just he just stared daggers at us. It's a tough beat.

Amanda do you want to do your number four? Yeah I really liked Ferrari. I don't know Italy. You know what I'm saying? I'm pro Italy.

Once again I just like to go back to if you film your movie in Europe with mostly real things and Adam Driver, I'll show up. You should pick the college football playoff teams. I think that would be uncontroversial. I worry that there would be a lot of Tennessee representation

if that were the case. No, because it's just too stressful at this point. Oh, does it even just have them play? Vols, Dartmouth. I never went I did not go to a single Dartmouth football game.

What are you talking about? Does Dartmouth have a football team? They do. But it's not very good. Temple. Did you go to a Temple football game? No.

Basketball, yes. But not football. Sure, yeah. I went to a lot of Dartmouth hockey games. That was really fun. You get to slam on the glass. Like I shoot from, but not football. Sure, yeah. I went to a lot of Dartmouth hockey games. That was really fun. Ferrari's number four. You get to slam on the glass. I shoot from the other side, you know, if you sit close enough.

More sports where I can, you know, bang on something, like, interactively. You should go to more hockey games. I guess so. How, I know Ferrari's not your top five. How far away from your top five is it? That's a good question. Let me take a look at his filmography. It's pretty high up there. I'm on the record about the last 15 years being a bit of a struggle for me with him

and the stories that he has chosen to tell. I'm not a big Miami Vice guy. I think Miami Vice and Ferrari are kind of right in the same zone. Whereas a lot to recommend, a couple of choices that I feel like really derail the movie for minutes at a time.

I just happen to think that my four through one are all five star forever movies for me. And so there's like a big gap I think between all the other stuff

because there's such totemic works and kind of like genres that he sort of invents or reinvents. So it's a little hard to there's such totemic works and kind of like genres that he sort of invents or reinvents so

it's a little hard to talk about them without sounding like a complete asshole but I'm already doing it so it is what it is

why don't we do well let's just do my number four which is your number two Chris and it's not on your list Amanda though maybe it will be

after we talk about it which is Manhunter the Thomas Harris adaptation one of the first to use the Bill Simmons parlance like modern procedural crime movies certainly a serial killer film but

really a movie told through the eyes of an obsessed FBI agent who is hunting down a killer, um, and using killers to find killers, obviously like silence of the lambs and the expanded Hannibal Lecter universe comes in the aftermath of this. But this movie is,

uh, wildly like emotional and abstract and almost psychedelic. And the way that the crime is, the obsession with crime is portrayed the way that it shot. It's like, this is kind of the beginning of the man staring crime is portrayed, the way that it's shot. It's like this is kind of the beginning of the man staring at the ocean, wondering about the universe phase of Michael Mann. I love this movie.

I didn't expect it to be as high as it is for you. So why is it number two for you? It is probably the movie I've returned to the most over the years other than Heat in terms of just sheer amount of viewings. It's almost like a yearly annual watch for me. I i often pair it with silence of the lambs it's like a very this whole story the thomas harris story is very fascinating to me i find that this is the most painterly and um i don't want to say representational but like i was thinking about this a lot with the killer

about the terms of subjectivity and how the camera and the scenes are supposed to represent the internal storms that are happening in the protagonist's mind, that's very much the case for Manhunter. It's not entirely subjective, but you will find yourself having varying reactions to what you're seeing on screen based on the way man is framing things.

Is it set in the Keys? The Florida Keys stuff, it's all very calm and beautiful and everything has this repetitive rhythm because of the waves. But when it's set in Chicago or Graham's on the run chasing the killer, it really does feel like you're you're being thrown into this demented kind of uh criminality um so i just i i fucking love manhunter i i don't i like i said this is like choosing my children so it's really it's really tough do you like the florida keys i do i like them uh i've never actually really spent that much time there but as a setting it's like it's fantastic. There's a lot of Elmore Leonard stuff down there,

a lot of Carl Hyasson stuff down there, Thomas McQueen. I just meant experientially. I like it. Do you think it's too touristy now? They have a lot of problem with cruise ships. Yeah. Everywhere does, you know what I'm saying?

But I enjoyed it when I was younger. Chris, why don't we talk about your number four which is my number one thief yeah okay uh this is like the punk rock michael man movie this is like where you feel his youth um i think which is something that he's very cool but this is the last time he feels young. The characters in this movie, they know themselves, but they're still figuring out where their life is going to take them in a lot of ways. The Tuesday Well James Caan date scene speaks to me about this. It's much different than Diane Vignore and Al Pacino and he. They've come to the end of a road.

True blue kind of guy. What's going on with this big romance? What do you love about Thief? It's a... What are you laughing at? I'm just sitting here as two guys cross the table or just like, what do you love about Thief? This is love. I know.

Why can't you just recognize love in the wild? It's really beautiful. Chris and I have also done this like many times for many hours. I'm just like, this is so recognize love in the wild? It's really beautiful. Chris, I've also done this like many times for many hours. I'm just like, this is so, it's really funny.

It's very sweet. Keep going. I like this one as like a recognizable archetype of a repressed, like uber professional in a blue,

doing blue collar work. Yeah. And it is like the ultimate blue collar thief movie. You know, people were literally, Michael Mann observed that there were people during the writers and actors strike holding signs outside of netflix that said i can see my money is still in your pocket which is from

the yield of my labor which is an incredible scene a line from an incredible scene in this movie it is like a very philosophical movie did he see that while he drove his own through i wasn't gonna say it i'm glad you did it's a very good question who knows uh he did and did not align himself perhaps and obviously he was able to get a waiver to promote his film during those strikes but uh james conn is one of my five favorite actors and um he is very well suited to the machismo that is inherent to all of Michael Mann's lead characters. And it's also like a beautifully shot movie. You know, I think we talked about, did Michael Mann invent wetting the streets in the movie? We talked about it on the rewatch.

Remember Ridley Scott just dumping water on the streets? Which probably isn't true, but is funny to think about. It's just a terrific movie. Incredible Robert Prosky performance is kind of the heavy in disguise. And just a very emotional movie for me about a guy who's like desperately thinks he knows

what paradise could be, but can't get out of his own way. There's a lot of guys like that in his movies. Well, we're getting near the end. Chris does not have the insider on his list i noticed that you and i do it's my number one it's my number two is this is it because it's a journalism movie is that what it is probably for me yes yeah why so why do you like it well i mean you gotta solve the case it is a procedural but instead of i don't know just a lot of

dirtbag cops it's a lot of dirtbag suits um when we when we did garbage cash we decided that this was garbage suits instead but it's not really garbage it's excellent and then you know it's the michael mann like hallmarks especially the dialogue and the famous Christopher Plummer scene, but really all of them just sniping at each other. Try Mr. Wallace. Yeah, exactly. It's just, it's wonderful, invigorating stuff. And you like, it's one of those journalism movies where it's like,

no, it's an imagined version, you know, both in the sense of, well, I guess it is based on a true story, but like, no one talks this well, you know, like no one feels this cool. Like, there's an avenging quality to it that we would like to imagine ourselves, even though we don't even do investigative journalism anymore, but that's okay, or ever, but that's okay. Is Lowell Bergman still working at Frontline? Because he really, he kept the flame lit for a long time, the Al Pacino character in real life. Frontline brought down the Robert Culp administration

in Pelican Breeze. Good point. Very, very good point. Yeah, The Insider is just an incredibly magnetic movie. It's kind of a pocket alternative history into what kind of a director he could have been.

Yes. I think it's interesting that he and Pollack had this kind of a director he could have been. Yes. I think it's interesting that he and Pollock had this kind of friendship and partnership that never really became anything because he had, this is a Sidney Pollock movie.

Yeah. And it's just, but with like an expert level of tension and angst and more masculinity than I think you find in a Pollock movie.

But, excellent Pacino. I think one of the like the last truly, truly God tier Pacino performances I think one of the last truly, truly god-tier Pacino performances. And Russell Crowe inverting his Russell Crowe-ness. Changing his gladiator bod to dad bod.

Exactly. And then surrounded by, as you said, Plummer, Diana Venora, Lindsey Krauss, Debbie Mazur. Just like Bruce McGill. Bruce McGill chortling at people. And a very trenchant story, you know, about power and the way that power attempts to kind of blur the lines between the truth and what is good for the bottom line.

So I really, really, really just vibe with this movie. I would have had it in my top five were it not for my deep love of cigarettes. Right. Michael Mann brought down cigarettes. What a paradox for you. It's a tough one. What's your number three, Chris? My number three is Miami Vice,

which neither of you have, which is okay. It's my terrible joy. You know, Miami Vice is the sort of, I would say, the apex of his digital filmmaking. Oh, God,

I feel so self-conscious talking about this right now. Just go for god, I feel so self-conscious talking about this. Just go for it! Just go to Cuba! Get a mojito! Yeah, this is also the beginning of the he didn't get to finish this movie the way

he wanted or there was some casting stuff that happened where it's like Colin Farrell doesn't remember making this movie or there was a shootout for real in Panama, so they had to leave. You know, like there's behind the scenes stuff that happened on this movie. I don't know necessarily that happened on Black Hat, but when you see Black Hat, you're like,

this definitely feels stitched together in strange ways. And, you know, that's sort of been a hallmark of the last 15 years or so of his career. That being said, sometimes I like those messy movies. And this is a case where the more you watch it, the more it starts to feel like the mess is intentional and the mess is part of the masterpiece, for me at least. And it's obviously just been a hugely influential movie

for a lot of newer filmmakers. But yeah, this wasn't even really that. I don't even find this a hot take. My advice is number three for me. Did you see this movie in theaters? No. But that's okay. I mean, I was in college, I think.

I think you would like it, actually. Listen, I've seen clips of it, and I enjoy it, and I love your appreciation for it, and I appreciate the password. It says, Go Fast Boats Mojito. You know?

Like, I get it. You know what happens in that scene? No. So basically, Colin Farrell and gong lee are hanging out right and they're just uh they're chatting and he's like do you like mojitos i know a great place for mojitos and she's like i love mojitos and he drives her on a go fast boat to havana so that they can get drinks and dance for a while. It's great. And he brings it back. I love it. I like reclamation projects. I like when a movie

comes out and everyone's like, this isn't good. You know, Babylon Hive, you know, like I, that project is very emotionally

appealing to me. You don't love it when I do it though. You think so? No. No, I feel a real kinship with you most of the time.

This is a space for healing and brotherhood. No, I really do. I mean, I think you and I are very united on this kind of energy in a movie. This is one of the rare movies where Chris and I saw it together and I was like, dog, no. Like, absolutely. He fucked it. What is this? And you, to your credit, on day one, were like, my God thrives.

This is the Sistine Chapel. You, to your credit, on day one, were like, my God thrives. Mogwai is playing while a drone shot of a jungle leads to this drug dealer in his cartel mansion. Well, there's one movie left. Yeah. My number three, Amanda's number three, and of course Chris's one. Is this your favorite movie of all time? This or Goodfellas. What is the movie? It's Heat.

I don't have any other words to say about it. I have no new things to say about Heat. What about the foreheat? I'll work on it, you know, if he wants to do it that way. But I mean, like, I've said so much about Heat that it almost feels silly talking about it. Do you feel that you've been properly credited in the culture

as a chief defendant? Definitely. And what do you think about Heat? Chris, I think for the foreheat, you should do some sort of situational thing that will change your opinion on the movie. Like maybe take shrooms before the pod. Well, I was going to say or maybe go through

what Chris Scheherlis goes through in Heat 2. Like I should move to the triple frontier and maybe start working for a triad and see if that changes my opinion of Heat that seems unsafe I don't know if I recommend that would it be funny if I still got paid by the ringer

though while I did that? sure, where's Chris? He's on sabbatical he's doing some exploring you like Heat? love Heat, the thing about Heat, the last time that I rewatched Heat, which I can't remember it was work related because i unlike chris you know i don't sit down and turn it on all of the time but i turned it on and i was like hey zach came in i didn't even invite zach and it came in 20

minutes and he's like are you watching heat and i was like yeah and then my husband sat down and watched an entire movie with me which is just increasingly rare these days. So once again, I thank Michael Mann for bringing me closer to the people I love. Perfect movie. One of the loudest movies. Yeah. Something I always think about, particularly the downtown shootout, which is, I don't know if there's anything better.

I don't know if there's a more bracing and emotional. We ever did a set piece draft. That might be the one. Oh, that's a good if there's anything better. I don't know if there's a more bracing and emotional. We ever did a set piece draft that might be that. Oh, that's a good idea. Very interesting concept. But yeah, terrific, emotional, deeply weird movie about guys having a really hard time just saying how they feel.

I think those guys are pretty candid. Al Pacino is saying a lot of things in the movie. I don't know if they're actually about how he feels. He says, don't waste my motherfucking time. That is true. You more of a Bob or an Al in that movie in your life? I think I am more of an Al. Yeah, I'm more of a Neil, obviously.

Yeah, I think that I like to walk into rooms and just let it all hang out, you know? And I'm Natalie Portman. You're like, I have to find my earring. Why don't we... Well, okay, so we have to gift you a number five. Yeah. I think you should do Last of the Mohicans.

It's criminally under-discussed in the man filmography because in a weird way, it winds up becoming more of an outlier because of the direction he went in afterwards. It's a wonderfully successful movie, a beautifully romantic movie. I agree with all of that. A harrowing movie. Some of the greatest scenery you'll ever see

on a widescreen. If you ever get a chance to see this in a rep theater, please go see it. The score is gorgeous. It's Dan Lee Lewis at his hottest. Yeah, that is true.

Madeline Stowe is wonderful in this. West Studi, incredible performance. I gotta revisit it i haven't seen it in a long time man it's good i remember it being not one of my movies which is not to say that i think it has flaws or a problem there's problems with it but it's just never been one of mine um okay with last of the mohicans is your number five amanda what is your

top five michael man movies five is last of the mohic, four is Ferrari, three is Heat, two is Collateral, one is The Insider. Chris, we'll let you have the last word, so I'll give mine. Number five is Collateral, number four is Manhunter, number three is Heat, number two is The Insider,

and number one is Thief. Chris? Number five, Collateral, number four, Thief, number three, Miami Vice, number two, Manhunter, and number one, Heat. This episode is airing the day after Christmas.

Merry Christmas, everybody. Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all the listeners of this show. This is not the last show of the year. We will have another show. Say it. Say what it's going to be. I don't think it's going to be that anymore. No, it changed.

We've pivoted. I don't know if we're going to address Aquaman 2 yet. Maybe in the new year. Okay. It was going to be a solo Aquaman 2. He put that on the spreadsheet for himself in October. And what did you say? And you said what? to dress Aquaman 2 yet. Maybe in the new year. Okay. It was going to be a solo Aquaman 2. Is the next, the first. He put that on the spreadsheet for himself in like October.

And what did you say? And you said what? I miss you every time. You said thank you very much. I did it and you said what to Zach the other night in the kitchen. Did he get it?

He did eventually, but I thought it was a lot funnier than he did. I texted Sean and I as like, you're like a goblin. Like, this is insane. And than he did. I texted Sean and I was like, you're like a goblin. Like, this is insane. And just no response.

I had so much respect for this idea. I'm not ruling it out doing it. And frankly, maybe I'll do it on New Year's Eve. Oh, great. After you make your list? Possibly. While we're all looking at like the giant dinosaurs? Did you know that you can feed a rhino

at a zoo near Palm Springs? I'll alert Alice immediately. Yeah. It's very exciting. I think they call it a rhino encounter. I was going to text you about this. I'm a little nervous about that framing. Me too.

The episode we're going to do is about The Iron Claw, which is an excellent new movie. And the problem with this year has been that there's just been too many good movies. We don't have enough episodes for all the good movies that they've bunched into the end of the year, which is very, very frustrating. Nevertheless, terrific movie. So we'll have a conversation about that. Bob, do you like Ferrari? I liked Ferrari quite a bit.

Yes. But I had some questions for you about the New Year's Eve podcasting idea. Who's editing that one? Or is that one just going up straight up? Raw audio. Maybe we should have a live audition for the next producer of the big picture. What do you think? Send all your queries to at akdobbins, of course.

Bob, thank you for your work on this podcast. Of course. We'll see you very, very soon.