The Big Picture - ‘Gladiator II’ Is Here. Are We Not Entertained?

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

Sean is joined by Chris Ryan and Mallory Rubin to discuss one of the most highly anticipated movies of 2024, Ridley Scott’s new film ‘Gladiator II.’ They work through their complicated feelings on the sequel (05:09), highlight some of the key standout performances (22:49), and predict its box office potential and Oscars chances (67:25). Then, they each rank their top five favorite legacy sequels of all time (76:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Chris Ryan and Mallory Rubin Producer: Olivia Crerie Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did you know that scientific studies have found most people lie once every 10 minutes? In my new podcast, Truthless, I'm talking to people about the lies they tell, from faking illnesses in high-pressure moments to making up stories on national TV. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Brian Phillips. Listen to Truthless on Spotify, you can get your choice of Junior Chicken, McDouble, or Chicken Snack Wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink. So pick up a McValue Meal today at participating McDonald's

restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Gladiator 2. Chris Ryan and Mallory Rubin, my two most formidable warriors, enter the arena today to discuss one of the year's most anticipated films, Ridley Scott's follow-up to his 2000 Best Picture-winning film, Gladiator.

We'll talk about the film, its Oscar chances, our favorite legacy sequels. Oh, yeah. Chris wants to talk more about the film it's oscar chances our favorite legacy sequels oh yeah uh chris wants to talk more about the christopher nolan movie we're trying to tamp him down a little bit just be easy it's going to be a couple of years let me help you okay let me help you help this pot um we can talk about some news i did want to cite before we begin is it possible that this trio this triumvirate, this power core has not recorded a podcast together in this formation

since the Inglourious Bastards rewatchables five years ago. No, I think we've only ever been in crossover event drafts. I do not know the three of us have potted. What? Isn't that possible? Isn't that right? Well, we've potted together. We're floored right now. Right, because we've potted together floored right now right because we've potted together a ton but someone else has always been there and also when we pod it's usually a

competition and i don't enjoy myself it's true you want to have some fun today not sure what he means you and i obviously we bring a certain kind of intensity to some of these episodes. But we very rarely just celebrate together and hang on mic. We hang all the time off mic. Sure. Yep. Yeah. But on mic. It's usually you two hanging out.

And then I'm like, looks like you had fun on Instagram. No, you're under an unhide blanket with a bunch of dumplings. Not fucking invited. That sounds great. Don't play the I wasn't invited card. Can I ask you? First of all, you live in Bumblefuck. Yeah, and also you're like, I'm never, ever leaving my house.

And I wanted to ask you. I'm here today. Am I not here today? You are here today. With my two dear friends. When you get delivery food, does it taste good? It tastes wonderful. But now, to be fair, I have no point of comparison.

I got a burger yesterday, a delivery, and I was just like, this tastes like shit. Oh, because she only eats delivery. Well, the burger, I mean requires a certain a certain strategic approach you have to be factoring in the delivery range you have to be factoring in the the wetness like is it a place it depends like you've always chris you you always need to think is it as wet as it should be okay just take what i'm saying seriously and think about it. But if it's a place that puts a lot of sauce, a lot of toppings on the burger, like maybe it's not as good of a candidate for delivery,

or you're going to need to deconstruct the burger, maybe toast the bun, perhaps ask for the sauce on the side. You have a lot to learn. This is me grabbing the wheel back, driving the car back onto the road of film. It's good. It was a helpful 10-minute stretch where I just slowly

adjusted the mic to where Jack wanted me to put it in the first place and now we're ready to pod. We are ready to pod. Is there any news that you'd like to discuss, Chris? Matt Gaetz,

anything regarding that story? I want to talk about how much like Trump's cabinet, Nolan is building his own Avengers. He certainly is, yeah. Fewer criminals in this, in this cabinet? We don't know.

Hard to say. Zendaya? How many crimes have you committed? I'd love to take a look at some of, uh, you know, her, her Venmos. So run down the list for me of the, maybe, maybe helicopter movie, maybe not. Damon and Holland. Yeah. Matt Damon and Tom Holland are in this film.

Hathaway. You're familiar. Hathaway and Zendaya. And Hathaway and Zendaya. Anne Hathaway and Zendaya. Lupita Nyong'o and just announced Robert Pattinson. Oh my god. Oh my god. It's like... Incredible. Seven of the 28

most famous actors in Hollywood right now? And we don't know what this movie's about. 1920s vampires, spies, horror, or a Blue Thunder remake. 1920s vampires? That got thrown out there, but I don't buy that. What do you want it to be about? What do you think it should be about now that you know the cast? I want it to be Blue Thunder remake. 1920s vampires? That got thrown out there, but I don't buy that. That's way too close to cool. Well, what do you want it to be about?

What do you think it should be about now that you know the cast? I want it to be Blue Thunder. I want it to be Blue Thunder. I want it to be 1920s vampires now that I know that's a thing. I think it should be a Jan 6 movie. Really weird energy from him today. Is Sorkin doing that? I'm not sure.

Okay. I'm not sure. I pray to God, no. Because my Q Shaman biopic has been in motion at Hulu for some time now, and I'm just waiting for the final green light. You know that Nick Cage is like probably, he's so ready to be that guy. Who's he going to play? Mike Pence? No, he would play Q Shaman, but as long legs.

And how would that sound, Chris? It's Bill's, I can't take that. Should we go right into Gladiator 2? Sure. Strength and Honor. Strength and Honor. Yeah. So this is, as I said,

one of the most anticipated movies of the year. A healthy grouping of the original crew from the film is involved. Obviously, Ridley Scott was the director of the first film.

The cinematographer John Matheson is back. A handful of actors are back. Connie Nielsen in particular from the original film, Derek Jacoby. But we've got this new story. The new story is about

a new warrior who we come to learn is named Hano. His real name is Lucius. And, you know, I'm not quite sure how to navigate spoilers for describing the plot of this movie because it's pretty well known that this movie is very similar

in structure and story to the original. I don't think we're spoiling Strange Darling. movie because it's pretty well known that this movie is very similar in structure and story to the original. I don't think we're spoiling Strange Darling. I mean, like, I think it's actually what you're worried about has been given away

in the trailers. Has it now at this point? Okay. So, you know, Chris and I... Yeah, I think it's difficult to have any conversation about the differences or similarities

or movie at all if we can't talk about that and also a couple key things that happen at the end which are basically some of the only things that make it different from the first yeah we'll put fencing around conversation around the third act specifically in spoiler warnings but in order to talk about the movie in any meaningful way we have to reveal who this central character is in the story right would you guys agree absolutely and And this is known to the public at large. I feel like it is.

But like, I apologize to anyone. If you don't know anything about Gladiator 2 and plan on seeing it, pause this podcast and come back after you see it. Go see the movie. Have a great night at the theater. This thing that we're talking around right now. Did you both sense that quite clearly when you sat down to watch the movie? No, I did not. That this is where the movie was going? I did not.

And what about you? So in the trailers, and just the marketing of the movie, it's clear who Lucius is in terms of the maternal line. That's very clear. Who is the father, though? That I was not aware of. Yeah, the Maury Povich-ing of Gladiators.

Yeah, that was a surprise to me in the theater. And I will say, despite having re rewatched the first Gladiator film maybe three days before I saw it, I found it actually slightly disorienting where I was like, did I forget something crucial from the first movie or is this an update slash record? Which is also, you are not the kind of person to miss something crucial from anything it's our second really sent me into like racing through my memory before i was like no okay this is an update let's roll well maybe you've set up a good place to start which is sort of what are your relationships to gladiator you were on the rewatchables yeah i love that movie uh i think it's a magical awesome action movie i think crow is incredible. And it's just so transporting.

It is probably the version of true old school Hollywood blockbuster filmmaking from that era, from that 2000s era that I remember most fondly. And how do you feel about it? I think it's sensational. I never tire of rewatching it. It's one of those movies that completely transports you and sweeps you away the first time you see it. And then every time you revisit it, no matter how much time has passed, and at this point we're talking more than two decades, you're like, is this going to be as good as I remember? And it's either as good or better.

That's at least my experience to it. The performances are incredible. Obviously, the artistry and the craft of the filmmaking, the set pieces, those moments, because so much of it is oriented around the action and the drama. Then those like, I mean, the movie is bookended by two iconic like pantheon speeches from Maximus that people still quote all the time to this day. And so it has this like emotional wallop. Obviously the framework of the film of like, when do you realize what the hand going through the wheat really means? It's a very affecting movie as well. It's fascinating always to read or hear tales about the production and how hard it was to reach some of those points in terms of what the structure of the film was ultimately going to be. Significantly rewritten during production.

Yeah. And the resistance to some of the things that ended up being the most beloved aspects of the film. But yeah, I love the first Gladiator. Yeah, real lightning in a bottle thing to Crow at that moment in that shape. Joaquin on his ascendancy there. Like, you know, being able to patch together

the Oliver Reed performance, even though he passes away during production. Like, I think if you simulated Gladiator 100 times, 98, 100 times, 98, 99 times, it's like... Great Richard Harris performance. Not as good. Right at the end of his life. Yeah, I similarly love it.

It's not in my absolute top tier Ridley Scott, but it is right at the top of that second tier of films. I agree with that. A useful way to think about it for me is it's arguably the last truly practical blockbuster in that there's very little CGI. Yeah, other than like the wide shots of Rome and stuff, right? And even those feel more handmade.

It feels like a very practical kind of blockbuster. And it's right at the end. It's the summer 2000. Yeah. And it's right before Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and Spider-Man. Yep. And obviously those are,

I would say the three movies that probably change summer blockbusters for the next quarter century. And so the production design of that movie is beautiful. The costuming is incredible. Yeah. And you got, like you said, you have Crow kind of basically

giving the ultimate star performance in a film like that for our generation. There's probably not been anybody who's done the swords and sandals or the like fallen hero rises kind of a story as well as he does in that movie. So it's a movie that, you know,

it won Best Picture and was a box office success. I guess a little bit of controversy around that Best Picture win. It's maybe not considered like one of the greatest Best Picture wins of all time. But it's a movie that has a huge reputation and people love it. I thought it was very funny. I don't know if you guys read Adam Neiman's piece on The Ringer about the original Gladiator.

I did, yeah. But him connecting the relationship that Ralphie on The Sopranos had to the movie and how that was maybe a subtle dig at the sort of like alpha bro-ness of Gladiator and Gladiator fandom I thought was very clever. Gladiator 2 is a movie that has been often on the menu for roughly 25 years. There have been many iterations of scripts over the time that they immediately went into development on doing a sequel despite the fact that of course Maximus dies at the end. You and I have talked many times on pods about the never to be Nick Cave version.

You can see online still where Maximus fights his way through hell. I have no notes. Would have been a very exciting movie. Would have been a very different kind of a film. You know, the movie was a DreamWorks movie back in 2000. They sold the rights to Paramount in 2006 when they were having some money troubles. And it's just been in a kind of state of development for a long, long period of time. It finally comes to us here now from Paramount and Ridley Scott.

Chris, I'll start with you. What did you think of Gladiator 2? I was entertained. Yeah. I was entertained. I don't think that I will rate it anywhere nearly as highly as i rate the original and i think there are things about it that are like the most illustrative problems i have with modern blockbusters uh a kind of like messiness of the writing a kind of over reliance on cgi and special effects in situations where you're like this completely takes me out of this but ultimately

like a central performance from Denzel Washington, who I think in some ways is the star of the movie, that would make me even go back and see it again. I remember earlier this year just being like, this is going to be Top Gun Maverick. This is going to be fucking incredible. I'm going to see this five times in the theater. Meskel's going to be a huge star after this.

And I think I'll be halfway right. You know what I mean? We'll be halfway right about that. I think that this was something that think like, I'll be halfway right. You know what I mean? Like we'll be halfway right about that. I think that this was like something that we just like, in my mind, I think I may be over, overhyped myself a little bit. So if I sound tempered,

it's because of that. What about you, Mel? As you will recall, because you were there on the podcast with me, I was so excited about this movie and so hyped about it that I forever broke and altered the rules of what was eligible to be included in House of Our Annual Hype Trap. I do recall.

Take it with the sixth overall pick for the entire year. So I was very much looking forward to the movie. Let me tell you something. I had fun in the movies. I had a great time. It is such an entertaining movie to watch. It's quite long. I treated myself to a robust meal at the multiplex.

I got a five-piece chicken tender at the theater. So you ate a five-piece chicken meal while you were watching this? At an AMC. Yeah, I was so hungry. I'm like, this is a long movie. I really got to settle in. This is a chair that reclines. I'm going to get comfortable.

I'm going to fuel up. Got the chicken tenders. Got a popcorn. Got some Sour Patch watermelons, got a cherry vanilla Coke because it was one of those soda machines that you can mix and match. Sat down. Saw our former colleague and beloved pal Jason Concepcion in the row in front of me. Delightful surprise. Turned the other way.

Saw our colleague Charles Holmes right there. Wonderful surprise. Had a blast watching the movie. And then couldn't stop thinking about whether the movie should have existed. Because it is just, I think the cast is incredible. Like a lot, genuinely a lot of my favorite actors are in this. Like Pedro Pascal and Paul Mescal are two of the most important people in my life. I don't know them.

They're not in your life. They are people you look at. It feels like they're in my life. And they're very important to me. And I thought the performances were really wonderful across the board. Obviously quite campy and extreme in certain circumstances. But it's just the movie is so similar to the first one in terms of plot, structure, approach, focus, pacing, that it's difficult to not then land where you did.

Which is like, if it's that similar, it's beckoning and inviting and forcing almost a comparison that would always be there for a legacy sequel. But like a direct, almost like one-to-one comparison. Yes. And so the movie is not as good as the first one.'s it's like i think hard to land in a different spot but i had fun when we were talking outside i said to you how do you communicate that this movie is a huge disappointment to me and also incredibly entertaining yes you know that it is like it is very clearly a fun night at the movies oh yeah, yeah. But the food that you ate at your screening is appropriate because this is an empty calories movie.

It's just not ultimately a very serious movie. There's honestly nothing wrong with that, and it fits quite neatly, I think, into some of the late Ridley Scott tropes where he's like, I'm going to take on Napoleon, and I'm going to put a lot of jokes about fucking in it. That's kind of where his sensibility is at right now. It's a, if you, in taking an era,

this is a real splatter paint era for him. And I think I try not to, I try, I'm trying to be better about like using like off screen journalism about like how the movie was made or this bit that Ridley Scott says about like, I think he was talking about, um, Prometheus recently. And he was just like,

ah, we kind of fucked that up. And I was like, no, I've been thinking about Prometheus for 10 years. So you can just be like, it's good. Yeah.

Like, uh, but like, well, he does the opposite where he like says that movies that everyone agrees are not good are good. Yeah. You know,

like 1492 is one of my best. He's insisting Gladiator 2 is like his best film. But it also sounds like he's sort of like, I work on like the compositions and like the pre-visualization and I'm worried about

like this massive canvas. But I kind of let the actors just sort of do their thing. And I do think that that kind of comes across in the film. There's a little bit of a casualness of his grip on the ring.

It's like a little loose, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think there's some inconsistency in the performance styles. Like, it's interesting to hear what you said about, because I don't know if I enjoyed the performances uniformly. One, I think one of the key flaws of the movie is that Lucilla, Connie Nielsen's character, who was in the original film,

is really the emotional center of the movie. Right. And I don't, I've liked Connie Nielsen in movies in the past. I just didn't think she gave a very strong performance in the movie. And so the movie really sags when you need her to convey that she is sort of like this bridge figure between two generations and the structures of power that define this era of Rome. So immediately, as soon as she gets her first big moment in the film, and she in this film is, she's the wife of Acacius, who is a general who we see early on in the film in a siege in Numidia, taking land in the name of Rome, and he returns home. And they have a moment together. And I was like, Ooh, shoot.

This is not that very like every, the sort of like the uniformity of performance style in gladiator that makes it so effective. It's immediately all over the place. You know what? There was also like a, what, I don't know whether you would call it like a pyramid structure to gladiator in terms of it's like the importance of each plot line of gladiator,

where it's like very clearly Maximus's movie yes and then secondarily a story about a brother and a sister who were grappling with their father's death that the brother was responsible for in the sister's mourning and then on the third level the roman senate roman society this moment of change in this in this empire it's like a parallelogram in this movie where it's like, it's kind of Denzel Washington's movie, but it's also about these two crazy brothers who are ruining the city. But it's also about like Lucilla rediscovering her connection to her son and also her love affair with this general who's got mixed feelings. It's kind of all over the place. And at various points on the mixing board, I feel like he's like, this is going into the red. And I'm going to basically put Paul Meskel in a cage for 40 minutes.

Like he's just like getting visitors but not doing anything. And it's just kind of like, oh, rhythmically or like equalized wrong for me. But I really agree with that. And I think you're hitting something key, which is like, to me, the issue isn't that it's not mapping onto the pyramid. It's that it's really trying to, but then not. Like, actually just do something different. But you have your key figure who then connects to a family in turmoil. And can they understand their respective motivations and get on the same page? And then they are connected to the levers of power

and some secret plot or stated ambition. And part of the reason that I think it felt much messier and less neat and tidy is like, I'll save, because you said to put a box around the third act, I'll save some like character fate stuff for later, but even just in terms of like where we find Rome and then how that impacts all of these other aspects, these personal and political dynamics, it's like the question of

what Rome should be. Rome's place, the Roman Empire's place in the world and the people who are driving that, that's still the big question. That actually is not different. Okay, so we have a similarity. We have a comp. What's going to make this movie feel new? Let's just flip the thing, right? Instead of here's Marcus Aurelius' dream of what Rome can be, it's a bastardization and a compromise and a failure to execute against that promise. So it's like disorienting because it's similar enough that, again,

it's like constantly inviting the comparison, but then the thing that is intended to make it feel like aorienting because it's similar enough that, again, it's like constantly inviting the comparison. But then the thing that is intended to make it feel like a distinct experience is simply just to flip it to the point where with a couple of the outcomes for certain plot lines and characters, I almost felt like it became impossible not to know what was going to happen to certain people, whether it's a good thing that happened to them or a bad thing. Because you're like, well, the corollary in the first film ended here. It's basically has to be the opposite in this movie. Well, OK, let me I'll suggest what I think could have been a shift that would have been more interesting to me. And I wouldn't have rewritten the movie specifically in this direction. But you can see that it's something that is compelling, Scott, because he keeps turning towards it, which is that the kind of counter idea to the typical hero's journey that we see from Maximus

and that we do sort of see from Lucius in this movie is you could have turned the movie into a more kind of Caligula style portrayal of Rome at this over consumptive Bacchanal stage of its history where everything was too much all the

time and you've got this pair of brotherly emperors gita and caracalla and you've got this macronus figure that denzel washington plays who is sort of like a rising power player in the in the republic and more tightly focused on the way that that world worked yeah and then maybe introduced in the second act a hero who needed to kind of disrupt what was happening inside of that space. But that's just not conventional enough for a traditional blockbuster. It's just not Joseph Campbell, so you can't.

The pitch could have been, we're going to do Gladiator from Oliver Reed's perspective and we'll make a movie about Macridus who wants to up in Roman society and finds his tool and this guy who in his like lurching for power and wanting this chaos corrupts himself betrays everyone etc that's fucking

awesome would have been cool movie but that's not like if Lex Luthor could control Superman yes that would that is what the movie would have been and so until he can't and then that would have been really cool but i think that to your point i see i was gonna ask you a question the way you were just talking yeah do you think that this movie does something or doesn't do something that something like say top gun maverick or force awakens did do because i would say those are similarly the same movie for

sure yeah i mean right force awakens which will maybe come up later on this podcast is in almost do. Because I would say those are similarly the same movie. For sure. They are. Yeah, I mean, right. Force Awakens, which will maybe come up later on this podcast, is in almost every respect mapped onto A New Hope. But like, okay, so we'll stick with Macardus for a second. I think without question, the Denzel performance is like the most successful thing about the movie.

It's the best part of the movie. Every time he's on screen, the movie is absolutely alive. Absolutely wonderful. Almost to a problematic point where like, why is my pulse racing? you're a female it's the best part of the movie every time he's on screen the movie is absolutely alive absolutely wonderful almost to a problematic point where like why is my pulse racing and then why am I feeling fucking dead

and he's a very complicated character with some very raw ambition but my friend David Sims texted me this morning he was like the problem with the movie is that we are rooting

for Denzel Washington and I don't know if that's where you should be I don't know that I don't know that it's a problem to reaffirm. I mean, I guess it is because you're supposed to be aligned with the people who are opposing him.

But, like, to me, the challenge was, okay, Proximo. You're like, right, so this is this movie's Proximo figure. That's the Oliver Reed character. The Oliver Reed character. He ended up being righteous. He ended up making a final stand at the expense of his own life to help Maximus. So it was always clear before we knew what Macrinus' true intentions are, that all of the excess that you're talking about, this rot in Rome, was going to actually be the thing that he cultivated and used as his pathway to power, that he could not be trusted, that it wasn't going to be the same story. And so it's like,

even though he was my favorite part of the movie, it was still dramatically less compelling because it felt inevitable that he was going to be a foe long before it was actually clear in the movie. Completely agree. Because he is originally framed as the sort of he purchases lucius and he makes he trains him to become a warrior in his stead of warriors in the arena and he's a kind of mentor figure to him and he's making him promises on the expectation of his future relative to what he's able to accomplish in the coliseum but denzel washington is playing the part so insinuatingly throughout that his dark ambition is just barely underneath the surface. And so you are waiting and waiting and waiting for this inevitable moment. Now, I think like when those moments happen and they come, like the movie again, I'm like, this is like kind of rip roaring. This is actually the Ridley Scott with the safety off thing, the Prometheus birth sequence

where you're just like, whoa, this is really weird and intense and a little scary and funny and that odd blend of styles that he's able to smash together in these big tentpole movies that I love. But I completely forgot about Paul Meskel when all that stuff is happening.

I'm like, does he even matter to this movie? Maybe that doesn't matter as much, but I think it keeps us less grounded. Let's talk about Paul Meskel a little bit. Please. So, an Irish actor of some renown got his big break on Normal People. I think all three of us really like him.

Obviously, Mallory would like to have sex with him. So would you, though. I mean, to be fair. A very handsome fellow. I know you recently saw him in person yeah you were struck by him right um i was in an elevator with him and i was like this guy i i had been stretching my back outside of the elevator because i was like that my bike bike back and a different guy was like oh i have a great chiropractor on second avenue you should

go to and the whole time paul meskel was just, I can't wait for this conversation to be fucking over so I can get out of here. So it was a cool moment for all of us. Yeah, memorable. His on-screen persona thus far in films like After Sun is a very sensitive,

thoughtful guy. All of us strangers. Wonderful. He is, you know, young millennial, elder Gen Z, heartthrob because of his simultaneous like strapping classic matinee idol good looks combined with a kind of like gentle parenting sensitivity. This is a much different part for him.

Yep. Very, very different from anything he's ever done before. He's asked to do certain things, particularly, I would say, speechify at a loud volume that he doesn't have a ton of experience with. Where we are, death is not. Yeah, that's what you say to us every day when you're getting us ready to... Yeah, that's what I drop into Slack every morning, 6 a.m. Let's go, guys. Time to crank.

Tonight we ride. I think he's like 80% of the way there in this movie. And I think he might be miscast or the character is not totally written the way that... The thing is that he's a wounded mama's boy. That's a part of the motivation of the character. Is that he is ultimately a kid who has been abandoned by his mother and is cast out. And he has to build a life for himself and build a family.

And the same way that Maximus has an inciting incident with the murder of his family after he's a there's an attempt on his life by comedists after he kills his father similarly lucius loses his wife in that raid that acacius storms on numidia and that sets his journey into motion but he's motivated by something which is this abandonment that he won't let go of that's a weirdly that's a very Mescalian character type. Yes. But I don't know if the movie like quite sells us on it. I don't know. What did you think of Mescal in the movie?

I thought that he did the best he could with the material that he had. And with, by material, I don't just mean the script. I also mean like the positions that Ridley Scott put him in. There's something uh which we'll talk about soon where he's frequently fighting like cgi animals like frankly like a lot of his like accomplishments like never really match up to the first time we see maximus against the germanic tribe you're just like well that's Ed Reed. You know what I mean? I'll follow that dude into any game.

This is fucking incredible. He put on a platter for you. Yes. But when he's just like, on my command, unleash hell, you're like, well, whatever happens in the next two hours,

I'm with this guy. Yep. He never gets a moment like that in this movie. And I think that that is, that can't be his fault. But I think the moments where he could have pushed it

to some sort of stratosphere and like galvanized like the audience to be like, oh yeah, this is his fucking movie. He just gets smoked by Denzel. And it's, there's no, that's a, that's a schedule loss, man. Like there's nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is. Yeah.

Yeah. They were in, in Alabama. Yeah. In prime time. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. They were in Alabama. Yeah. In prime time. Yeah. Yeah. Roll Tide. Interesting.

So I have a slightly different feeling about this, which is like that, again, he's an incredibly special and important person. Very good looking guy. Great thighs. You listed all of his, you know, famous movies, but you didn't list the place where he is most present for people, which is their Instagram feeds where GQ posts pictures of him walking around various cities

in short shorts all the time. So nice to see that. Another in a long line of internet boyfriends. Indeed, truly. The thing that you're citing, the absence of the Ed Reed I would follow you into any hell,

made total sense to me. And actually, like the moment general yeah yeah the moments then where like that happens maybe on fast forward felt strange yeah like the that actually is part of what was compelling to me to find the protagonist in a very different place in his life not only because of that your campbell point inherent inversion of the general who shouldn't be the chosen one, who is then picked by Marcus Aurelius over his own son to be entrusted. And Lucius is the prince who has left this birthright behind.

Initially, because I also thought this was kind of like a sloppily executed part of the movie, the reveal of the backstory and when and how and why Lucilla sent him away and then the like out for a day of recreation with my pals and pursuers are here so I have to flee and then I guess he's just like lost

from that point but there's a reason why that is tremendously confusing that we'll reveal a little bit later so it's not just that he then feels abandoned by his mother it's that he embraces this other home his wife this community and then begins to see rome not through the eyes of the prince and the air but as an ad right as an adversary like look at what this greed and this hubris and this incessant need to always,

like, encroach and take and take and gain and grab does to people. And I thought that was interesting. Like, dramatically, that was actually one of the richer parts of the text, to the point where, like, the Pedro Pascal character, Acacius, he is also this is like one of the reveals of the movie right that he is actually also in that frame of mind he does not want to continue to lead other men to their deaths because of the greed of the the reckless and insatiable twin emperors he wants to challenge them thwart them do a coup as they say on the great and then help usher in a different era of Rome, the era that his wife and her father wanted. But that was never like really allowed to breathe and tease and to be teased out enough. Like, I feel like actually if more of the focus had been on the fact that they were the under... like the people

who didn't actually occupy power and want the other things. They were like the administrative class. Yeah, it would have been more interesting, but that's not ultimately what happened. I wanted more Pedro. I didn't feel like we got nearly enough of him. His character is quite strange. I similarly really

respond to him as a screen presence. I know he's very famous now and The Last of Us has kind of put him into the stratosphere, but I think he's a terrific movie actor. And this part feels underwritten and kind of cautious. He's quite good in the action scenes. Yes, he is like a fantastic set piece actor. Physical actor.

Which is like really actually a talent to be able to communicate. You buy it. It's the same thing when he's Red Viper he's red viper you're like this is absolutely incredible totally in that series it's one of those funny things about mando where they're in whenever you hear how like rarely he's on set and in the suit and i'm kind of like why yeah he would be amazing actually out there doing that um but that part feels like he only gets to have maximus's bona fides as a leader and nothing else, really.

He's kind of like, he's quite restrained in the sequences with Lucilla and even in the attempted coup conversations. And so you don't know what he's meant to do. And then you realize basically his story and that side story is just a tool to Lucius' story. It's not really a developed plot line, which is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but there are i think you put it very well there's just a lot of competing forces that makes the movie feel very and i think

that there's there's a world in which i you know i'm not trying i'm trying to evaluate the movie we got not the movie we wanted or the movie we think we would have done better like developing yeah but i think that it's fair to say that this entire conversation is bracketed by this idea of like hollywood's obsession with reviving properties with keeping ip going with if you're gonna do that like they're just gonna be playing in a sandbox that's got pretty high walls they're not gonna be messy they're not going to say like oh what if this what if this kid was just a brat you know what i mean and what if he was like very easily manipulated and all these different people were trying to like force him

into these different roles? I'll tell you what, the movie I saw last night, that's the thing I liked about it. Just to give you a little teaser is that the movie was unafraid to be like, this is what this person is really like. This is what it would be really like, which is kind of a brave choice. And that was Wicked. And that was Wicked And that was wicked.

Elphaba, she really was a brat. Anyway, I think you're right. There was like opportunity here. It's a little bit bungled. I do think that when the Colosseum sequences are at their best, they're still like as exciting as anything can possibly be.

There is a bit of a challenge with this because anytime Lucius or anyone else is fighting a human I was like this is movies this is as exciting

as spectacle movie going can go like when he's just training and getting his ass kicked but keeps getting up you're like

that's how we make sure the rowing sequence Ravi treating his hands but this is a Dr. Dolittleittle-ass gladiator movie. It is. There's a lot of animals and creatures, and none of them are- There were no animals on set, clearly.

There are- Other than Dondas. That's- Well, we'll get to Dondas. There are fight sequences that feature baboons, a rhinoceros, and then- Sharks.

As suggested in the trailer there is a shark battle sequence across boats shocking stuff frankly the sharks it has been declared that the likelihood

of anyone during the Roman Empire times catching a shark let alone transporting it seems low quite a few sharks in there like you could walk

across the sharks to get to the other side yeah I didn't think any of those three sequences were terribly successful. Rhinoceros probably the most successful of the three. It's always fully in the trailer. The baboons was just CGI.

Like it's just not. I actually felt like we got dumped into Wicked or something, you know? There's like an interview with Paul Meskel where he's just like, and it's these little men who ran and tackled me. And I'm like, that would have been better. Yeah. Because it was like they needed green guys to like come running tackled me. And I'm like, that would have been better. Because it was like they needed green guys to like come running up to him. And I was like, that would have been chill if like a bunch of dudes ran out.

I mean, the idea of using animals in general is not, there's a tiger component to the original film. You know, like that's not out of the realm of interest. But I thought all three of those just kind of felt like that condition that you're talking about. We got to have like a certain kind of the audience is expecting a certain kind of spectacle. I'll go further than that. I'm throwing down the gauntlet. You know, we recently went and saw Apocalypse Now on wonderful widescreen 70 millimeter print. You've got to have the real animals. I challenge all actors and directors that if you're going to start, you got to let a bunch of wild baboons attack Paul Meskinen.

And see where we get. They may disfigure him. He may no longer be the internet's boyfriend. You know? You do remember the plot point in that fight that hinged on him, then he has to eat part of the baboon to beat it? I understand. But like, go for it.

You know what I mean? What happened to method acting in this industry? for it you know what I mean what happened to method acting in this industry what do you think would you be willing to put Halo in the arena no I do not agree

I'm glad that no animals were harmed in the making of this movie and I'm glad that Paul Meskel's face was not harmed if you're not responding

like the way Frederick Forrest responds to the tiger in Apocalypse Now I frankly just don't believe you you know like if you're not like that fucking tiger motherfucking tiger that's what he should have been like with

baboons instead he's like oh okay baboons you know like here's the thing like what is up with that but at the end of the day all of the most important people are lost not to a baboon or a rhino horn or even a shark, but to an arrow fired from far away, Chris. That's the real terror. Then we don't need all the animals. Why is most of the action in the Colosseum animal-based? This guy would not have lasted long in Gaeta's empire because it's all about the spectacle.

It's all about the spectacle. I'm not against spectacle. I just want it to be real. Some of it, I think, is just about the execution. I really like Peter just about the execution. You know, I have certainly, I really like Peter Jackson's King Kong. That's a CGI animal movie experience that I think is very effective.

And there's a lot of attention and care put into the execution of how that creature looks. Sometimes they look good. Sometimes they don't look as good. As you said, it just took me right out of the movie. I was like, okay, so we're just like in Jurassic World 6. It, it just took me right out of the movie. I was like, okay, so we're just like in Jurassic World 6. It just didn't feel

like a gladiator movie. And I think, obviously, generationally, there's a certain level of acceptance in terms of what the visual presentation is, of set pieces, too,

that I think is a component of this, too. For sure. I think that ultimately, much like in the first film, even though there are a lot of grand, sweeping spectacles that are incredibly compelling in the first film, the most like heart thumping. Oh, my God.

Like, I feel like I'm inching forward on the edge of my seat and the tension is so high. Or the intimate fights. Right. The one in particular in the Emperor's party sequence where Meskel is one on one with a bruiser in front of the crowd. Blood all over the floor. Smashing through the cakes. Fantastic. That sequence is great. Yeah, I mean, that's much, much more compelling

and more effective than any of the baboon stuff. But the fact that you have the scaling up and scaling down and can kind of convey that whether you were in a private chamber or an arena as massive as the Coliseum, the currency always is violence and entertainment. I actually found like effective. Okay. Keep the bed booms safe. Keep them away from Chris. What did you guys think of Fred Hechinger and Joseph Quinn as the twin emperors? Oh my God. That was the spiciest part of the Cheesecake Factory menu of acting.

That was the Louisiana pasta of this movie. That was just like chef's choice. Two young actors, very promising young actors, Fred Hechinger. I love them both. White Lotus probably what he's best known for

at this point. He's been in quite a few movies in the last couple years. Joseph Quinn, most recently in A Quiet Place Day One. Stranger Things, of course. Stranger Things.

Is going to be in, is going to be Johnny Storm. A little movie called Fantastic Four. Might play George Harrison in the Sam Mendes. Yes. I thought that they

were having the appropriate amount of fun in their sequences. And I thought that they were they have compared themselves to doing John Lydon and Sid Vicious from Sex Pistols

in their portrayal of these two guys which I thought was kind of clever. They were in Denzel Washington's movie and I appreciated that. Definitely. They were. And those are the two

performance styles. You've got Connie Nielsen and Paul Meskel trying to and Pedro Pascal being quite serious and stayed and thinking about the Republic and the future of power in this place and then you've got demons fucking shit up on the other side

and the demons were fun like anytime they're on screen I was having fun and even though it is very outsized there's a long tradition in Shakespearean performance in in Roman and Greek tragedies to have characters that are outsized like There's a long tradition in Shakespearean performance, in Roman and Greek tragedies, to have characters that are outsized like this. So I enjoyed them.

Just sensational stuff. Genuinely wonderful. Two performers who I love and enjoy. And yeah, it's like, I think you can argue that the tonal clash is deliberate, right? And that like the fact

that there are the the more severe and measured and reserved performances tells you something about those characters and the fact that these are are so loud and uh bold tells you something about those characters and that the the moments when they are forced into the same scenes together then there's like a you know mentos into a coke bottle effect that is kind of interesting to watch. I just, I do think that the scene of, are we talking about, I keep almost spoiling what happens to people. We're very close. We're very close.

Do you think that they tried to, was the anxiety of Commodus' influence weighing down these guys at all? Yeah. I mean, I think in a weird way, like while I was watching it, I was like, these guys are doing late period Joaquin. They're doing the more mannered crazy Joker

shit, which I thought was cool because you kind of imagine the way that that power would have decayed over the decades and the way that these guys would have gotten dumber and more indulgent because they just never learned like that, that,

you know, like there's a sense of like inbreeding going on. Yeah. There's like something kind of wrong with these guys. Like syphilis. Right. Like, yeah,

the disease is made its way to its brain. Great. And I, I would say that like there, that whole like side of the movie, their kind of decadence and debauchery, Washington's manipulation, Macronist's manipulation of them, where that goes is my favorite part of the movie.

Yeah, for sure. Which is just so funny to be saying about a gladiator movie. But also, it's interesting because there is no equivalent for the two emperors of the wound that drives Commodus. There's no equivalent presented in the film. No, they're just fucking nihilists. Yeah, of like, this is what drives me. My father didn't love me. My father, when I was young,

told me what the four virtues were and I possessed none of them and I knew from that moment onward that he didn't love me or value me but here are my other virtues and oh, he chose Maximus over me. I guess I have to strangle him and then try to kill Maximus and take power. There's nothing like that. To the point where when they turn on each other,

it's like, okay, I guess that's the thing, is just that they don't want to have to be a shared act, and also just that their whole life is about the party. It feels like a very clear Cain and Abel, Romulus and Remus. Yeah, for sure. And we get the Romulus, the moment with the... But the reason I'm saying that is because actually it doesn't in any way dampen the effectiveness of the character deployment in the film. And so actually maybe it's a case that I think often my impulse is to think we need to understand more about the arc and the journey and the film. And so actually maybe it's a case that like, I think often my impulse is to think we need,

we need to understand more about the arc and the journey and the motivations. And it's like, maybe actually we, maybe we need even less of that, you know? And like my, my gut response in a way to what you were saying earlier about orienting it more around Rome and that aspect of,

of Rome. My first thought is like, well, both films, including the first one have like genuinely no interest in the Roman people. Like none. Yeah. They're simply like a prop to stand in the, to stand in the Colosseum and cheer. They are interested in how power operates in the city though. Yes.

With the Senate and the idea of Rome, the idea of Rome as a character, the people of Rome are not characters in either film. And in some ways that has always felt like a limit to me. But actually, I think once you tried to start doing that, then you're just sort of like, this isn't HBO's Rome. Yeah, it's communicated. That stuff is communicated largely through expository dialogue rather than like what you would expect from Ridley Scott, which is like, oh, this like incredible moment in the city center where you find out that these like that the public has turned on the government that happens a little bit in the coliseum it certainly happens towards the end of the film but like yeah they start the movie being like hey we're like a little stretched thin like we have to keep taxing these people to feed the army that you've got spread out all over the world right

like you imagine that it's at a tipping point but it looks just the same as it did in the 2000 film, where you're like, ah, it seems like everybody's having grapes and partying. Except then you have the riots. It's like, oh! That's what I was going to say. The movie, though, does lean into this very interesting energy where, you know, obviously the inciting incident of the first film

is the idea of Marcus Aurelius giving Rome back to the people and turning it over, over really to the Senate. Yes. Yes. Which I think is an interesting and complicated idea in 2024 America, maybe internationally, politically, like what that even means to turn power to a government rather than to an emperor. And then in this film, you see this much more like aggressive rendering of populist outrage, which again, like I i don't the movie feels like oddly out of time in that respect like who really wants to have power and why they want to have it i don't need my gladiator legacy sequel to be to neatly map onto the american electoral college

but i find it to be an interesting time for a movie like this to come out in the same way that conclave which is like so heavily leaning into like, hey, isn't this just like this election cycle? The movie could be read as like as a misread on how politics is working right now. And in fact, like we are in a kind of emperor state. We are in a time when that kind of that idea feels more resonant. So, again, it just feels like one more theme that is not totally thought through, not totally explored, or it's just too much for any one movie to bear

to lean too far in any of these directions. We can officially start spoiling the movie. We've talked for 50 minutes. If you don't want to hear any, we've said quite a bit about it, but there are a few critical turning points that we'll discuss now. If you don't want to hear any, we've said quite a bit about it, but there are a few critical turning points that we'll discuss now. If you don't want to hear any more,

I think you can fast forward 20 minutes or you can go take a long walk or fuck off. I don't care. Okay, those of you who have not fucked off, you know, the big revelation, which I certainly felt about 20 minutes into the movie was coming and then is clearly communicated,

is that in fact, Lucius is Maximus's son. Yes. That he is the bastard child, presumably, of his relationship with Lucilla, which we learn about in the first film. Yep. There is a memorable moment in the first film where Lucilla and Maximus have a conversation about having sons. Yes. Who are both eight years old. Which at the time

of watching that movie I wasn't like, wow, I bet that's Maximus' son. There's not really any insinuation at all. It's also just like, that means Maximus

was like fucking Lucilla right when he was having his own kid. Yes. Which is mad funny. That's strength and honor right there. Okay.

This like makes nothing is surprising about them making this choice of course this is what ended up happening but the first movie hinges on one thing

how Maximus feels about his family yes so this is like the image of his wife and child hanging there and then that driving

everything yes and so even though it is equally apparent throughout the first film that he and Lucilla had history, obviously we do get a kiss, but just that they had history, that there was something between them, that it was not going to work and it didn't last, that's all there.

But the timing part of it, I actually find that bizarre in terms of what it... I thought it was actually, I mean, they, they directly referenced it in gladiator too. The much more transgressive idea is that he's comedic as kid, a product of incest.

And that is like lightly suggested in the first film, but it certainly is overtly referenced in the second. And now obviously like, well, you can take from that whatever you want, but that's the kind of like, this is a little bit fucking dangerous to do that. Like this kid who's got like,

just this terrible background and is now coming back to try and maybe like, make something pure out of his, like there's so many different- Or burn it all down. Or burn it all down. That could have been the way to do it. This whole thing is just a lie.

And I am the like the inbred product of all of what's gone wrong with this idea of the Republic in the first place. That would have been a that's a totally different movie. I mean, a completely different movie. Yeah. It would have been an interesting idea. As soon as you get the cut of Lucius's jib, though, actually, honestly, the first thing you see is his hand in the wheat. His hand in the barrel that's full of grain.

It's an obvious callback to Maximus walking through the afterlife, feeling the wheat. Those guys didn't have blue sky, so they didn't really have much to do with their hands. It was either touch, grains. They couldn't refresh the full Utah. Or ask if they had touch.

As soon as I saw his hands going in the grain, I was like, touch screens. Yes. They couldn't refresh the full U tab. Or else could they touch faces. And as soon as I saw his hands going in the grain, I was like, oh, I guess Maximus had another son that was not murdered. Don't you just feel like Lucilla would have told

Maximus this in the events of the first film? Well, I mean, she didn't really have enough time. Like, I think that there was a world

in which she could have helped him pursue what Marcus Aurelius wanted. But that happens very quickly. You know, Commodus is, he's on it on that one. You know, like, the calendar invites were hitting. It was like,

my dad's dead, we gotta chat. Let's go. I gotta get you out of here. You don't think in, like, the conversation about their son, she could have been like, by the way. Or even in this movie,

she references like, you were on his mind at the very end. Now think back to the very end. Lucius is safe. By the way, he was your son. I want you to know him before you die. It's a bit of a janky

storytelling thing in the movie. She wouldn't have told him? Yeah. It's very strange. Did that feel like a note to you? Did that feel like somebody was like you? Did that feel like somebody was like, we have to Skywalker this kid? That's an interesting

question. I feel like the movie started from that premise. I feel like it had to for them to justify it, but it is a classic case of retconning. I mean, there's just no other way to put it. This was not in the text of the first film at all. It's okay if it isn't. It's not the worst thing in the text of the first film at all. And it's okay if it isn't.

It's not like the worst thing in the world. But it got me immediately thinking back like, shit, when's the last time I saw Gladiator? Did I miss something? I had to go back. Yeah, like I had to go back and just be like, as soon as we got out of the screening we saw, I was like, did I miss like some like,

did I pee every single time I've ever seen Gladiator? Where the student was like by the way he's yours yeah where they like remember when we fucked eight years ago weird I have a son

he's eight you know like yeah it's not the worst day in the world so you know it's also weird because like he's

been traveling the globe the entire like you know he's a little bit of an absentee dad anyway he's like you know fighting dramatic tribes they just won't let absentee dad anyway. He's like, you know, fighting dramatic tribes. They just won't let him go home. Yeah.

Much like Acacius, yeah. Yeah. You're saying Maximus was not a good father. Well, I mean. To his bastard son. Either of them. He didn't know. Or his acknowledged kids.

Wow. But you know what he did? He really did more coverage the package. He gave him the gift of inherited, you know, combat sense, you know? Yeah. He's got great instincts. Because that's how Lucilla is just like that's my son he's kind of a brawny James

honestly you know he's got some of the skills you can see there's like the DNA is there but is it all there yeah

I found Paul Mescal very convincing as a fighter did you not it's okay when he fought people yeah I just I don't think he was

put in a position to succeed I would like to talk about Macrinus. Please. Yeah. So obviously Denzel's best part of the movie. Denzel is in this weird, not a weird place, a hard-earned place where pretty much like Equalizer 6,

I'm like, I will be there on opening night. Good, because he's making money. I know, I know, I know. But I was looking back at his filmography from the last 20 years, and I was like, it's this weird combination of, you know, he's been on this mission to make films like Fences to get August Wilson's films,

so it plays in front of people. He is still occasionally doing this sort of Roman J. Israel style character piece. And then he's doing big top blockbuster-y stuff. He's doing the Equalizer movies. He's doing Gladiator 2. He's really struck Equalizer movies. He's doing Gladiator 2. He's really struck this harmonious balance

in his 70s of being wildly acclaimed multi-Oscar nominated actor. And the surest thing at the box office who doesn't really do Marvel movies. And also like

a very weird guy who's like, I'm going to make Macronus a bisexual freaky freaky who's like, I'm going to make Macrinus a bisexual freaky, freaky guy and like I'm going to, I'm going to like try, basically it's a new thing he's never done before.

And he's also on one of the all-time promo campaigns. Yes, he's obviously having a lot of fun promoting this movie, which it seems like he never has fun promoting movies and for whatever reason this time around,

he did this Esquire as told to piece that is fascinating about his life and getting sober and all this other stuff that's been going on kevin spacey yes taking shots at you know how he doesn't vote for oscars anymore but the movie itself like i think the thing i want to focus on is just there is an outlandishness an absurdity like a a fun having in his character that he doesn't have a ton of history with. You could say Alonzo a little bit in Training Day

is this, but there's something also under the surface there where this guy's really fucked up. He's got a lot of problems. Adam called this a prequel to Training Day. It's probably the closest you could get, but he usually plays a very tight, forthright person. That's not what this is at all.

He loves Shakespeare. I think he sees this as a Shakespearean character. I think he brings an almost theatrical stage presence to the movie, which the movie desperately needed. I also think that he gets to finally, not finally, but he gets to play someone, like you're saying, is a villain that we are weirdly cheering for.

And someone who is like actually pretty messy. Like he does not have like an overarching plan. No. He is constantly taking advantage of the chaos of the moment. So when Lucius shows up, he's like, bang. When he gets closer to the emperors, he's like going to twist it this way. When he gets over the emperors, he's like gonna twist it this way when he gets over the emperors he's like here's how i'm gonna flip these riots and they'll want me to be the person who's

in charge of rome like i love how like in the moment this character was it wasn't like okay i can see this is your arc you're gonna do this and like it's obvious that like you'll wind up being this person it's like i didn't when watching the, I did not expect him to be the comedist of this movie. And that's sort of where it kind of winds up in some ways. Something that Joanna and I talk about a lot on House of R when we cover any Rings of Power episode, any Lord of the Rings tale, is one of the reasons that Sauron is so compelling as a villain

is because he's the great improviser. And that felt very... That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, that's really good. Very present here. Like that ability to... Because a lot of villains are plotters, plot to scheme, schemes and plots. But to be able to adapt inside of your ambition

is just thrilling to watch when you're seeing somebody do it with this level of ability. And it's particularly effective in the performance and in this film because one of the things that you have to buy in any scene he's in, in any circumstance, is that the person he's interacting with does actually clock that they're being worked, but still falls for it or still gets swept up in it

like there are very sort of so brain damaged that you know we're scared or scared or compromised like yeah you know like he what does he takes over that senator's house because he has such a great this is my house was like that was because that's personal and that's intimate and you could see how he would overpower him but then the senate scene with the head the great dundas the first console and then macron is the second console scene and then uh when it's just him in this room with all of these political operators your expectation is that they will say to him, okay, what the fuck just happened? Let's fix this.

How are we going to account for this lunatic? But that's not what happens. He slides right in. They're like, tell us what to do. They're just immediately in thrall. And so that was fascinating to watch, whether it was a one-on-one interaction or a large room. You're almost like, how did it take him this long

to reach this moment? I guess he needs someone like Lucius to be the tip of the sword that allows him to pierce the shield around those halls of power. But he does it with ease. You were comparing the two brothers to Joaquin's Joker,

but he's more the Dark Knight, the Heath Ledger Joker character, where he's sort of like, he does not have a master plan, but his plans develop quickly, and when they do, he manages to pull them off in fascinating ways. They're almost so outlandish as to not be believed,

but you're so sold on the performance, you're so invested in the actor who's bringing the character to life that you're like, sure, the Joker implanted a phone in a guy's chest. I'm like, when did that happen? He's a cardiothoracic surgeon. It's like, yeah, okay. I guess

that sequence makes sense. I really, really enjoyed Denzel. I think it's hard to not enjoy him at this age. It's also nice that he had fun making the movie. You can tell he enjoyed himself. I feel like there's just not very many people who are as famous as

him and as good of an actor as him and clearly can use his capital and his involvement in something to be like, whatever happens in this movie, I'm going to do something really interesting. And I get the feeling that he had a lot to do with the arc of that character

because this is a guy who's like, I do the equalizer. I do all this other stuff. My kind of brand is locked. We don't have to worry about that. So I will play a bi-schemer who gives dudes pounds when we like drink wine and laugh and

wears earrings and is just bawling out and then we're going full spoke. Fucking gets chopped to pieces. Oh my god. Amazing. That's gutsy man. That's not, there's no ego in what he does. Has it crossed your mind how perfectly this mirrors

the Jake Paul Mike Tyson fight? The end of this film? It has not crossed my mind. I couldn't help when I was remembering the end of this film. It has not crossed my mind. I couldn't help, when I was remembering the plot of this movie, I was like, so, you know, the film ends and naturally this showdown between Macrinus, who has built up this army and this team of loyalists,

and then a group, Maximus' army, who is called back to Rome and they learn that Lucius is in fact Maximus' son. And after a series of battles and Rome kind of going into shambles, there's this kind of epic showdown where these two armies are staring each other down. Lucius and Macrinus are fated to battle in a river.

Yeah. And Macrinus gets a couple of shots in, you know, and Lucius goes down. But at no point was I like, what if Macrinus wins? That's never going to happen when you're watching the movie. The same way when I was watching Tyson. I was like, from the moment he started throwing a flurry of punches that had no chance of landing,

I was like, wow, Mike's either going to get knocked out or I'm going to sit here deeply unsatisfied for the next 13 minutes. And that is exactly what happened. How did you feel about the ending? You know, I did not feel like I was ready to sign up for Paul Meskel's Academy of Roman Politicians. I thought it was cool that he was like, here's my identity reveal. Here's my heritage reveal.

It just felt a little kind of rushed. Maximus had this very like this circular arc where he needed to get back to like going into heaven to follow his family and he had to go through these trials to get there and it just felt like very clean the trajectory of that this just felt like i so is this guy the emperor now like or is he like the head of the senate like Like, I don't know. I don't even know. Maybe it's like, well, let's make a third movie. But I felt like I didn't really believe with anything

emotionally from that moment, you know? I mean, everyone is dead. So, right? Like at the end of the movie, Gracchus, Lucilla. Most especially Derek Jacoby. Yeah. Macronusus the two brothers acacius Jacoby gets it that was just like

what the fuck I turned you and I was like damn they really did 86 year old Shakespearean icon Derek Jacoby dirty in this movie I was watching the original the other day and I was like damn Derek Jacoby looked fucking old when he was 62 he mean he's 86 now making Gladiator 2

great performance always very good yeah tremendous stuff what did you think of the ending so it feels very emblematic of the joys and the drawbacks of the film overall it's the movie in miniature because the actual fight between Macronus and Lucius

I thought was honestly incredible again like those intimate one on one the actual fight between Macrinus and Lucius, I thought was honestly incredible. Again, like those intimate one-on-one, like hand-to-hand, visceral combat is just electric in these movies. And the fact that I agree with you that you know that Lucius will, of course, emerge victorious, that actually didn't bother me at all

because I think for most of the movie he thinks he's done right he's like i've dreamt i was had already crossed the river again yeah right you know so like it was the emotional uh aspect of that for me was that just he decided to fight decided to make the stand decided to try to rally the troops and say, I could be Ed Reed to stick with your wonderful comp. The fact that these two giant armies are there, armies from the same place, right?

Both different factions of Rome, aligned with different people. Sort of like Ring of Earth's big picture showdowns. 99 movie draft kind of energy. Just so. The 99 movie draft that the Ring of Earth, big picture. Exactly. Showdowns. Exactly. 99 movie draft kind of energy. Just so. The 99 movie draft that the Ring of Earth swept, right?

What was that? Okay. Thought he was never going to mention it again. And they're, like, literally just standing there. Like, they do nothing. They don't come into play in the sequence at all. And there's something that's interesting about that. It's a reminder of the strength that is in theory at hand and on offer and the question

of whether people can tap into it or like unify it. But it is this kind of just odd adjacency. From the Macronist perspective, the thing I like about it is we see not only what a what a operator he is how he can maneuver but the actual like tactics at play throughout the film right something like the fact that he he definitely pieces together who Lucius is first before Lucius's own mother clearly right when he hears that virgil the oh the poet he his mind starts to raise right away yeah who is this guy and so he is he also has we learn later that because he was a slave who was owned by marcus aurelius he has proximity to this world and this family there's there's these yeah exactly stories so we can see see, okay, he's a studier.

He's an observer. He's clocking things people say, do, decisions they've made, who they are, where they come from. He does, unlike some of the other characters, have a direct tie. It's an interesting way to take a character like Marcus Aurelius who, obviously in the first movie from Richard Harris' own mouth, we hear him say like, was I this guy that they think I am? Like he questions his own legacy. That's part of the fabric of the universe. I like that part of the film. Wonderful.

Yeah. But since then, both in the first movie and then in this one, he's mostly just propped up by other characters as, like, the guy who had it right and had it figured out and who nobody else could properly then live in his shadow. There's no nuance to what Marcus A aurelius represents exactly and so it felt crucial then for macronus to be a character who's like the lesson i learned in my life was to take the person who put you in that place and become i also think that's what the the dangerously like intoxifying idea of that character is to undo

the myth-making of the first movie about strength and honor and the dream of Rome. This guy's like, that is all bullshit. Okay. But so then this gets

to the ending, because I agree. This was fascinating to watch throughout, and then you get to the end, and you're like, but he never actually did it. He didn't earn any loyalty.

Right. They rode out because he told them to, but in the moment of active challenge, nobody stood for him. I think that's debatable. That's an interesting idea.

I mean, I'm very dubious of the framework of that character's history, which is that he is a slave who sort of earns his own freedom through his combat in the arena,

and then by dint of the accumulation of wealth and strategy and relationships, he rises through the ranks of wealth and strategy and relationships he rises through the ranks to become ostensibly even if it's for the last 12 minutes of the film promoter who becomes a politician which is not entirely hard to believe but i am very skeptical of the like i was nothing and now i am at the very top like it's an interesting season where anora like one of the key ideas of Enora is there is no dream.

You don't start at nothing and then marry your way into an oligarchy. That's just not how the world works. But maybe you're right. Maybe the movie is telling us, in fact, that it was all, he was a paper tiger. You know what I mean? It wasn't actually, he hadn't accumulated that. He had to derby his own hands. Both of the emperors, he takes down literally with the strength of his own hands.

But also, it's like you have to do it yourself. He almost doesn't want the fingerprints. He wants to pull the puppet strings. Yeah. It's interesting. But he has that turn, though, when he decides to remove the emperors effectively. And you can feel his brain rod kind of going into hyperdrive the way that power often corrupts. Again, that whole macronist part of the movie

is so interesting. The character's so interesting. The performance is so interesting. I just want to live inside that part of the world. And even though I admire Paul Meskel as an actor, I'm kind of like, eh, whatever. Yeah. I guess he won.

That's fine. Well, what do you guys think of the idea then of the third movie that's already out there? It's not. I highly doubt it. Well, what do you guys think of the idea then of the third movie that's already out there? It's not. I highly doubt it. Well, it's okay. Let's use that as a segue to a conversation about this movie's prospects and award stuff too. Do you think it's going to be a big hit?

You would know way better than me. I mean, it's doing very well globally, right? Yeah. It made $87 million around the world. Doing well globally. I think people need something to go see. But they have Wicked. This is opening in the same weekend as Wicked,

which is going to be a sensation. I really don't know. I don't think it's going to be a failure, but I think it will be bigger than Twisters. That's an interesting comment. Now, that movie didn't play well overseas, but played very well in America. This is a movie that could play better overseas

long term than in America. I'm not really sure. There's something strange about how, I feel like this movie has been an interesting litmus test where it's like you can't just say it's pretty good. People are either like, never has Ridley Scott achieved such brilliance, and I'm like, he made,

Covenant is maybe better than this I don't know but like on the other hand it's like I don't want to say this is shit because there's so much

to it that's like you know what it is I actually think that this movie is equivalent to Napoleon but my expectations were low on Napoleon and they were high

on Gladiator 2 but they're very similar kinds of movies when the movie is at their best in terms of set piece and character development I'm like god damn Ridley Scott the goat like I love this guy's movie so much But they're very similar kinds of movies. When the movie is at their best in terms of set piece and character development,

I'm like, God damn, Ridley Scott, the goat. I love this guy's movie so much. And then when something feels really, really loose and unformed in the script, which is true of all of his movies, you're like, oh, this is pretty messy and not very strong. But I'm typically a big defender of late period Ridley. I really like The Last Duel. I really like House of Gucci.

I really like Napoleon. I really like the Alien films. I'm mostly in the bag for everything he does. I think that this one just bears the burden of an all-time classic preceding it. There's only so much that can be done in that respect. Do you think it has any Oscar chances? I do. I do. Is Denzel Washington the favorite at this point for supporting actors?

I think he's in second place behind Kieran Culkin right now for A Real Pain. Wow. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I did just see Edward Norton in A Complete Unknown and I thought he was very strong in that movie. Will Edward Norton be doing podcasts after... Not this

one, I don't think, based on our previous conversation. I... I was more... I was just like that... No disrespect to him. He didn't seem to be having a very good time motherless Brooklyn like he went on the all-time pot run yeah yeah maybe he learned a lesson or two

about what you know yokel dickheads to sit in front of I think it is mostly a like we have to nominate Michael Caine because Michael Caine was good in a movie and he was in his 70s kind of a situation but there's a world in which everyone just kind of remembers like

I like watching Denzel Washington more than any other person in movies, and that has been true for me for 30 years, and he gets a third. That could happen. The big questions to me are Best Picture. When we did Power Rankings last week with Katie and Joanna, we did not include it.

I genuinely don't know. I've never felt as confused by the slate of best picture potential nominees as i do this year if you told me it was in i wouldn't be shocked a friend of mine who said he went to an academy screening of the movie recently and that people were really into it i think it's because ridley scott is capable of something in this kind of spectacle fashion that very few filmmakers are. And that we don't have a ton of big, dumb, fun, great blockbuster adult movies this year. Like Furiosa could have been one of those movies. It didn't totally live up to certain expectations. The most pertinent one to me is Best Director.

Because Ridley Scott has never won Best Director. It doesn't make any sense. This guy made Blade Runner an alien. Yeah. What the fuck? You know, you'd like to get it for Alien if you made Alien. Sure. That's insane.

One of the 15 or 20 most influential movies of the last 75 years. It's been this long journey of him not getting there. Ridley Scott's been nominated three times for directing. Can you guess the films? Obviously, Gladiator is one. Thelma and Louise is definitely one. I know that. Thelma and Louise is one.

Obviously, Gladiator is one. It's not one of the ones. Did he get nominated for Black Hawk? That's what I was going to say, Black Hawk Down. He did get nominated for Black Hawk Down. He was not nominated for Best Director for Blade Runner or Alien? I don't think those films got any above the line nominations. Absolute criminal

madness and everybody should be ashamed of themselves. This is a very, very tough thing that happened the year after the Gladiator Oscars. That's the year of A Beautiful Mind. And the Best Director slate that year was one of the best ever, except for one thing.

Okay. The person who won it. So it's Ridley Scott for Black Hawk Down. It's Robert Altman for Gosford Park. It's Peter Jackson for Fellowship of the Ring. Fuck yeah. And it's David Lynch for Mulholland Drive, which is one of the single coolest nominations ever. And Ron Howard won for A Beautiful Mind.

I like Ron Howard. I like a lot of Ron Howard. I don't like that movie very much. It's a tough loss. So anyway, the point being, he hasn't won. Usually when this happens with people who have the footprint of someone like Ridley Scott, they just decide like, fuck it. Like, we just got to give him one.

It's just important. This would be his departed. This would be his departed. Yeah. The thing is, the directors is very idiosyncratic. It's much smaller than a lot of the bigger groups. It's obviously much smaller than the actors group. Yeah.

It's leaned significantly more international. I guess Ridley is international, but he's a Hollywood filmmaker. And I know you guys don't really know. I don't really know. I kind of feel like Denis Villeneuve is going to get nominated before Ridley Scott if they're going to do a blockbuster.

I wonder. I wonder. I mean. And then he should win. Let's do it. Sean Baker, Edward Berger. Let's do it Sean Baker Brady Corbett let's say Denis Villeneuve

Denis Villeneuve that's four and then who's the fifth I mean John M. Chu no Rommel Ross for Nickel Boys I don't know

this is this is the group that has you know nominates like Pavel Pavlikowski now you know where they're just like

oh wow that oh he came out of nowhere I guess you could make the case that Edward Berger would be that but that was a focus movie. It's an interesting question because. Who do you think the front runner is this year then?

Probably Sean Baker right now. But I still think that similarly is a deeply unsettled thing. And there is like an old guy still got it thing with Ridley that you could make the case for. But if not, if not here, then when is the question? He's making a ton of movies. He is. He says he's making a very many more movies. I think this movie will do very well. I do not think this is the repeat

business, crazy like everybody goes and sees it three times, Top Gun Maverick. I agree with that because Top Gun Maverick was the kind of thing where even if nobody wanted to go with you, you would have just gone again to see it. I think I did do that.

Yeah, right. So I don't feel that way about Gladiator 2 but if someone asked me this weekend hey, do you want to go see Gladiator with me? I would go again for sure. Yeah, I'm going to see it again for sure. Because I had fun at the movies. Yeah, I did too. I'm going to see it again. I'm probably going to see it again on the big screen but it's not the thing you're talking

about where you were like, I need to go back to that place emotionally. Yes. How that movie made me feel. That's exactly what I did. Yeah. I think it will... Unlike Dune Part 2.

Genuinely. A movie that I felt I needed to see again. Yeah, I saw Dune so many times in the theaters. And honestly, I wish I had seen it more. Dan sat in that chair

and said he saw it 12 times in theaters. And then three months later, we asked him about that and he said I lied. I didn't see it 12 times in theaters and then three months later we asked him about that and he said I lied. I didn't see it 12 times. How many times did he see it?

He doesn't know. That tracks for me. He doesn't know. The categories where this movie will be nominated are production design, visual effects, costumes, and sound.

Almost certainly. Everything else I think is up for debate. Probably Denzel. Probably Denzel. Will Dondas be nominated in any category? That would be special effects.

We haven't talked about Dondas. Animal performance is something I have advocated for. Yeah, of course. I think it would be great. I agree. But if you were an animal in movies, you would be furious at the CGI baboons taking human work. We stand up for workers' rights against AI.

But what about animals' rights against CGI animals? You hate animals. Dondas wore a little diaper. Was he real? And then took a bunch of like, Mostly real. What was it? Like gelatin fruit or something from the bowl

and just nibbled on it. That was real. That happened in this movie. Yeah. That wasn't movie magic. I thought it was. That was a monkey shitting on Fred Hechinger's shoulder. Climbing all over Fred Hechinger the entire time.

Yeah, Fred Hechinger, when we went to the screening, he talked about training with the monkey a little bit. So he should beat Denzel then for supporting actor. No. Dondas? No, Fred Hechinger. Big Fred. Is this a successful legacy sequel?

And what is a successful legacy sequel? Obviously, we've raised the specter of Top Gun Maverick over and over again. That movie's going to come up in our discussion of our favorites. These movies have been around longer than I realized. I started rooting around for lists of the movies and it became clear that

Macquarie and Cruise did not invent this concept. Psycho 2 came out in 1983, some 23 years after the original. Did you have a must-be-X amount of years after the original? Yeah, what's your definition for Legacy Sequel?

To me, I thought roughly 10 is a good framework. But it could be nine. That's crucial. It could be nine, right? That's crucial for one of them. I think my top five is very much in the spirit of the idea, which is like director or filmmakers

revisiting a work much later in the meditating on that work but also iterating on it is not necessarily a direct sequel like it takes place a couple of years right in the immediate aftermath of the event yeah yeah and it doesn't have to be the same filmmaker same filmmaking team there's often going to be either a key character or a key actor who recurs right in the next film. But then paired with a new character. A new generation, typically. Yeah.

But not always. I don't know. Like in To Sir With Love 2, was there like a new, younger version of Mr. Tibbs? Was there a second one of those? Yeah, there was. Directed by Peter Bogdanovich. But like, so when you talk about the difference between a sequel and a legacy sequel, that feels clear to everyone. There's no other thing we need to define.

We're on the same page. I think so. Although we can explore it in our discussion. Here's a good one. The Jurassic Worlds are legacy sequels. No, the only movie in that franchise that is a legacy sequel is Jurassic World because the next movie is a sequel to Jurassic World. Jurassic World is a legacy sequel

to the Jurassic Park trilogy. Correct. There you go. Empire and Return of the Jedi are just sequels to the first Star Wars. Force Awakens is a legacy sequel.

Phantom Menace is not a sequel or a legacy sequel. It's a prequel. So this is complicated. How did they not let us write Gladiator 2? You know, it's so weird. We know it all. We're so chill.

These movies are really hard. There's a long list of movies here, some of which I like, but are considered big bungles. For example, The Godfather Part 3. It's probably the most infamous example of a legacy sequel. A movie that we have a fondness for, certainly. We've talked about a lot. And it was a big box office hit,

got Oscar nominations, but it's not remembered very fondly. Sometimes, they're Top Gun Maverick. They're the best movie of the year. They're thrilling. They're a huge success. And they remind us why the character and the star are at the center of our movie.

Sometimes even, I think in that case, maybe even eclipses the first film in terms of the emotional connection. For me, it does. Let's just do our lists. I'll hold off on my number five because I'm going to let you talk about it.

Okay. That sound good? There was interesting overlap. We did have a few that recur here pretty significantly. Mallory, you and I share two.

I have two that are on your list. I have two that are on your list. You guys only share one, though. Is that right? Yeah, I tried to, this is not like these are, I've gone through and scientifically evaluated what the best movies are. Just right off the dome.

Well, why don't you go first, then? Because yours is an important one to discuss. Sure, I'll start with my number five. Yeah. A little movie that we mentioned 30 seconds ago called The Force Awakens. Is this movie good? I love this movie. It's not my favorite.

Well, okay. We don't have time, really really to get into the sequel trilogy. Obviously, Rise of Skywalker is a blight on the history of cinema and our shared experience as fans and on society. Saw it together, yeah. We did. I love...

Would have made that my number one if it was eligible. Just to be clear... Somehow Palpatine returned. Somehow Palpatine returned. The Last Jedi is my favorite movie of the sequel trilogy. I think The Last Jedi is wonderful, and I think it is a better movie than Force Awakens. Is that a controversial take?

I just want to get that on the record. Interesting. I hadn't realized. Beautiful film. Wonderful film. But The Force Awakens, for the purposes of this exercise, is obviously the most appropriate selection. I've only seen it once. I love that movie. I've only seen it once. I liked it. You only saw The Force Awakens, for the purposes of this exercise, is obviously the most appropriate selection. I've only seen it once.

I love that movie. I've only seen it once. I liked it. You only saw The Force Awakens once? Yeah. I only saw it once, too. I enjoyed it. Hard to believe.

It is everything that we're talking about here. Yeah, it's fantastic. In terms of iterative of the original, but in ways that I found enjoyable. But I felt like I had no... Whereas Last Jedi, I'm like, I need to watch this like six, seven times trying to figure out what he was up to

and what his ideas were. The third movie or the third movie in the sequels? Like you said, Last Jedi. Do you mean Rise of Skywalker or Last Jedi, I'm like, I need to watch this like six, seven times trying to figure out what he was up to and what his ideas were. The third movie or the third movie in the sequels? Like you said Last Jedi. Do you mean Rise of Skywalker or Last Jedi? Wait, Last Jedi the second one. Because Last Jedi is kind of like upending a lot of our expectations of Star Wars movies, which was much more interesting to me than just repeating thematically, structurally the same movie. Yeah, I think Force Awakens is on my list not only because I enjoyed the movie and think certainly in terms of kicking off a new trilogy

in Star Wars, it is infinitely more successful than Phantom Menace was at doing that thing. Obviously, it maps on very closely in a number of key respects to A New Hope.

We port over not just, okay, in place of the death star you have star killer base in place of tatooine you have jakku in place of rtd2 you have bb8 the icon etc um love bb8 love a droid you you we have han right we have han solo in this movie we have lay on this movie we have these direct tethers and connections. Who's the father? Indeed. We have the state of the New Republic and politics

across the galaxy. But then you have these new figures. The aforementioned BB-8, Rey, of course. Hux. Kylo Ren. Have you heard of him? One of my faves. The best. And the connection specifically inside of the Kylo Ren, have you heard of him? One of my faves. The best. And the connection specifically inside of the Kylo. Han's storyline is, I think, emblematic

of what makes it a very effective legacy sequel. I forget, do they wind up being brother-sister in these movies, too? Kylo and Rey? Yeah. No, they... They're lovers, right? They're romantically inclined.

Well, they kiss once. We were close in New Hope. They kiss. Isn't it implied that they bang? No, they kind of have phone sex, basically. You're thinking of the... Oh, yeah, I love that part. Sailing mine mills?

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Enjoyed that. That was in Last Jedi. Great movie. Great movie. Yeah, so that's my number five. Chris, you've got a tie at number five.

I do, because I was interested in exploring the idea of making legacy sequels for two of the greatest films ever made. So I have Exorcist 3, William Peter Blatty's return to the world of the Exorcist with a lot of the original kind of evil of the first film. 13 years after the second film. Yes. Which is a very unusual formulation. Very. And is a wonderful horror movie just straight up, but also like really provocative about the ideas of the first film.

And then probably controversially, I kind of liked 2002 or the 2010, the year we make contact. I think this is a thing that's coming more into the mainstream. The 2010 is actually good. I saw that it was screening recently at like Vista one day when I was going home. Peter Hyams is just an excellent filmmaker, and Roy Scheider and Helen Mirren are awesome in this.

And it is sacrilegious, the fact that they're like, we're going to try and unpack and answer some of Stanley Kubrick's existential questions about you know life and it's much more as I remember loyal to Arthur C. Clarke's yeah science fiction ideas and less in the metaphysical exploration of the molecular nature of life

try to get to the bottom of that yeah okay so I love those two good picks you're a coward for not choosing one you do that all the time. What? You split. You often will be like, my number one film is five films. What do you mean? United by...

Now show me the evidence. My number four is Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2. Have you ever seen this? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Not recently, though. So here's what I like about this movie.

This is something that is very rarely done in these films. Texas Chainsaw Massacre, we talk about it all the time on the show. Signature horror film. Certainly one of the scariest movies ever made. Deeply upsetting. Portrayal of violence in the middle of nowhere. Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 is basically a slapstick comedy. It

completely changes the tone. It uses the same framework of Leatherface and the family and the pursuit of capturing people and murdering them and serving them. Have you ever seen this? Absolutely not.

Have you seen Texas? No. I don't think I can handle it. No, I don't think you could. This movie introduces new actors, much crazier sensibility, same filmmaker, some of the same team that made the movie many, many years after the original. I think it's 12 or 13 years after the original and also features Dennis Hopper, like a ludicrous performance is like kind of the hero of the movie.

So it's a great movie. People haven't seen it and they're expecting like Mallory, something just like grisly and gross. It is that. Yeah. But funny. Maybe I'll just skip right to that one. You could enjoy it as a standalone. You should watch them both back to back but start at midnight.

I have fewer nice things to say about the subsequent Texas Chainsaw Massacre movies. I think it goes into a bit of a fallow period. Did you like the Netflix one? Not really. I rewatched it recently.

Isn't it like Wokified? No. What's wrong with you? No. It's not. we need to start a commune yeah like outside of social media it's about

influencers who are start trying to start like the new Marfa give me a fucking break and in the Texas Chainsaw Massacre town and I talked with Alex Ross Perry about it it was like a DEI Texas

Chainsaw Massacre. That's exactly the kind of movie that will- That got Trump elected. Honestly, yeah. We just got to do away with this shit where we're just like, what if it was about influencers? Come on, man. That's not useful. This is why PTA never makes contemporary films. He's just like, what do I have to say about this shit?

That's right. He doesn't have to worry about language policing. You want to talk about your number four or you want to wait? My number four is considerably higher on your list, right? Yeah, so why don't we wait? Should we save it?

Yeah, we'll save it. I'm actually astonished it's not on Christmas time. Do you want to say anything about DEI Texas Chainsaw Massacre? I'm content to not speak on that. Thank you. What's your number four?

My number four is T2 colon Trainspotting. Hey! speak on that thank you um what's your number four my number four is t2 colon train spot uh you know a film that i think kind of came and went despite the 90s films a huge impact on culture and stuff but like this was kind of like my top gun you know was like a very very formative movie i was you know even though irvine welsh continued to return to these characters both in sequels and in a prequel uh that is not really like this is not irvine welsh this is about the guys who were in train spotting kind of being middle-aged men now and it's very much just like a reckoning with their masculinity the mistakes they have made over the course of the characters lives not literally johnny Miller and Ewan McGregor but

it's just a fantastic movie full of like very very poignant moments if you care about Trainspotting but I think also just like if you enjoy like very vivid very like verite style filmmaking with like Danny and Danny Boyle sort of signature

kind of like throw everything at the wall style there's like animated aspects ofle sort of signature kind of like throw everything at the wall style. There's like animated aspects of this movie, but this kind of, uh, I think is underrated frankly. And so I wanted to give it some love and it was a very interesting, you could revisit train spotting and just be like, it's another caper and they've got to get away with it.

And they're all still on heroin. And it's like, some of them are sober. Some of them are like, you know, it's really, it's really like only seen it once, much once, much like the last first Star Wars film. So I should probably revisit it.

Okay, I guess we'll go to me then. So my number three is Doctor Sleep. Yeah, director's cut though. The director's cut. Mike Flanagan's sequel adaptation of Stephen King's The Shining, which the first time I saw it, did not like. And revisited the director's cut, which is not radically different, but is deeper and longer and features more.

I like that novel and features more from the novel and is, I think, a very good example of using a familiar figure from the original film and Danny and the grownup Danny, speaking of Ewan McGregor, um, and introducing Abra Stone as the younger representation of the ideas that are at the center of the movie. And then the movie is just like supercharged by having an insane Rebecca Ferguson performance as the villain of the movie that she just walks away with the movie and is absolutely thrilling.

And there's a few things that Flanagan does both like structurally and in the way that he shoots it, that feel like a genuine like innovation, like very different stylistically from Kubrick, but feels like a step forward. Yeah. And it's a movie that like, when I saw the director's cut,

I was like, oh man, everybody's gonna be reclaiming this. Like you could tell this is kind of a big deal. And it was weird, weird that it would kind of bomb the way that it did. But now that Flanagan is in this interesting place

where I feel like he's right on the verge of being an A-list director between he won the TIFF audience award he's got all these

Netflix series that a lot of people watched and he's about to make more movies and he's also like basically the we talked about this a couple weeks ago

where we were like Stephen King needs a Kevin Feige to like kind of bring all these things together he's basically doing it that's what he's doing

so he's doing The Stand right Stand or Dark Tower Dark Tower he's doing Dark Tower but he's also doing Carrie yep so

an 8 hour Carrie which I don't know that I'm dying for I have some questions about remaking Carrie there's we have Carrie at home

it's called Carrie and uh we don't need another one we also have many other remakes that are not very good. Nevertheless, I do really quite like Mike Flanagan's films and TV shows. Okay. Mal, what's your number three? My number three is also higher on someone else's list.

Why don't we just do it now since you had to sit out the last one? Okay. My number three is Mad Max Fury Road. This is my number one movie. I would have put this on, but I just want it to be different. Okay. Not having this on a top five., I just want it to be different. Okay. Yeah. Not having this on a top five.

And you were going to fucking do that. Legacy sequels at the ringer. I just wanted to spread the love to more films. That's great. You don't need five people being like, this is so dope. I see you. The blood bag.

Yeah. Man of the people. But that blood bag was dope though. Where did you land on Furiosa? I thought it was okay. See, if you're saying that, I feel more justified on Furiosa? I thought it was okay. See, if you're saying that, I feel more justified in my like, okay, it's okay. I thought it was okay.

I've said, I've mentioned that I thought Furiosa is better on rewatch. I have not revisited it yet. I've seen it twice. I almost rented the Chrome, the black and white version, which is on iTunes

right now. And I would like to watch it in that format too because I quite like Mad Max Fury Road in that format too. It looks really cool. Fury Road is one of the greatest movies of the century. That's it. That's all I have to say. I agree. I just wanted to say different goals. I have seen a lot of people, actually it was around when

Furiosa came out, watching Fury Road on airplanes on their phones recently, which it's nice to know that Fury Road is always with us. And I'm usually like, you don't have to go to the theater. Watch it at home if your TV is big enough and your speakers are loud enough, person. But I found that slightly. It's like, let's watch Fury Road on the biggest screen possible.

I saw it at the Vista when it was originally released and it was electrifying. Oh my God, yeah. It's one of my favorite movie theater memories seeing it for the first time. CR number three. I got Before Midnight.

That's my number one. Oh my God. I didn't even realize that. I didn't even notice that. I'm sorry. It's fine. It's one of the most beautiful movies ever made.

Yeah. Let's just start doing our stuff. So the first two. Honestly, Before Sunset could have been on this list too. It could have been. I kind of look at that as very much in conversation with the first one about made. Yeah, let's just start doing our stuff. So the first two... Honestly, Before Sunset could have been on this list too. It could have been. I kind of look at that as very much in conversation

with the first one about like the mistake. Not that the third one is somehow different, but like very much about young love and like the night before, the morning after,

even though stress took off a couple years. Before Midnight, to me, is like everything. Everything that I'm kind of like asking for from Gladiator 2 2 where i was like have some guts and be like what if these people wound up together and they didn't really like it

it's like an incredibly incredibly brave raw real and emotionally honest movie about what happens in relationships in fairness to gladiator 2 easier to make that choice in a film the size of Before Midnight. You know, I think also we're in our middle age, you know, and it's a movie that like is a lot closer to what my life looks like. Hopefully not the absolute vitriolic disdain between me and my partner. You don't think you're sharing qualities with Macrinus? That's true. How do I, well, that's neither here nor there. I didn't put this movie on my list but I similarly love it I'm like braced

by it I'm also just like the idea of being able to come back this is similar to T2 Transpotting where it's like to do a meditation on these things that are really like a huge monument to youth and then come back and be like what would it be like

if these people just were 20 years older? Yeah. Linklater is one of my favorite filmmakers. The Before Trilogy is one of my three favorite movie trilogies. Along with... The other three.

Lord of the Rings and the original Star Wars. And then whatever the next two Deadpools are. Yeah, probably. We'll see what gets elbowed out of the top three. But I just,

I think all three of them are beautiful. But this is such a punch in the gut. And I love that. It's like so deeply upsetting and it's impossible to escape the fact that. The things that you love about the first movie. Getting swept up in some exciting new possibility. The idea of discovery, but then a misconnection.

And then it's like, well, what is life actually really like when people make their way to each other? You know? And it's like, it's this. And I just love it. I think it's incredible. And I know some people who don't like how upsetting it is. But that's what I love about it.

That's what I love about it. I find the films to be very French. Hmm. A lot of French domestic dramas you have people like looking at each other and being like I hate you

and I've always hated you you know it's like there's a much more sort of like too bad we have three children together yeah honestly yeah and I like that about it as well

okay that was my number three so that was Mallory's number one and Chris's number three and we have the same number two well then. That was my number three. So that was Mallory's number one and Chris's number three. And we have the same number two. Well, then we'll do my number two first. Okay. Your number two is my number four.

Yes. Take it away. That old game. This is Top Gun Maverick. We've mentioned it quite a few times. It's kind of my movie. Excellent film. I think it's the degree of difficulty

in this film is actually quite higher. One thing we didn't say about Mad Max Fury Road to me is that Max is sort of incidental to that movie and that by dispensing

with the Max mythology, frankly, all the movies kind of dispense with the Max mythology, but this one in particular is not really worried about connecting dots or making sure

that you know that someone is someone's brother or father. It's more about the world and the experience. Top Gun Maverick is the opposite. Top Gun Maverick is like, we're doing the story of this guy from the original movie.

And not only that, we're doing the guy's, his dead best friend's son is the other guy in the movie. And so a lot of people who had seen the original bring a lot of baggage to this. Somehow this turned out to be like a for everyone blockbuster. I don't really know very many people that didn't like this movie. I'm not sure if I know one person

that didn't like this movie. Even the most cynical, bitterest, anti-franchise, anti-Tom Cruise. All the stuff in this movie that's supposed to be pulling on the heartstrings sucks. You're still like, God damn, those planes were incredible.

And if you're like, the planes and the stupid plotting of what country is this? You're like, man, when Val Kilmer shows up, I fucking cried. Yeah. Oh my God.

Yeah. Also, just when it came out and the state of the movie industry and COVID and like- It helped a lot. I think that's inextricable, certainly from its initial resonance and staying power. Like people were just really glad to go share something together.

Yeah. But I think ultimately it's then has further elevated the movie's esteem that when you return to it later, absent that context of initially consuming it, it's you're still just like, this is fucking amazing. It wasn't just that I was so ready to go sit in the movie theater and watch something again. Right, if that's how you saw it.

It's just like, this is an incredibly entertaining film. It was very special. Incredible. So you guys both have the same number two. Yeah. Logan. Yeah.

Desecrated by Devil and Wolverine. Three favorite, well, yeah, was it? One of my three favorite comic book movies ever. Mm-hmm. Dark Knight, this, and... Ghost Rider, Green wasn't. One of my three favorite comic book movies ever. Dark Knight, this, and Ghost Rider Green Lantern. You got it.

Oh, I was going to say. Spider-Verse. Okay. Sorry. What did you say? Dark Knight, Spider-Verse, and this are your three favorite? It changes with time. It's more than like Civil War. Winter Soldier.

Winter Soldier. Winter Soldier. Doctor Strange 2. Not quite. Hawkeye season one. I loved Hawkeye season one. I did. Eternals? Nope.

No. Infinity War. I didn't mention the Eternals. It was beautiful. Winter Soldier and Infinity War. That was so incredible. They're my top five, certainly. But yeah, this is one of my five favorite comic book movies ever. It was beautiful. How Brian Tyree Henry was Oppenheimer. That was so incredible. One of my top five, certainly. But yeah, this is one of my five favorite comic book movies ever.

It's wonderful. Great performance. Also a great example of a legacy sequel because you have Daphne Keene. I think everything with Daphne Keene and Hugh Jackman and those characters and the old and the new and the bridging across time is just pitch perfect. It's very weird that she's grown up. Don't really know

how to respond to that. Do you think that she should have stayed at the same age? No, I don't. I don't. Childlike empress? But I had not seen her

in any movie at all since that movie came out and she's different. You weren't watching His Dark Materials on HBO? Was she in that? She's Lyra.

Was she in that? She's the star. No. Was she in any other's lyra was she in that she's the star no oh my god any other films she was in the acolyte this summer didn't finish that but did she play somebody with like a helmet on um oh she's got she's green yeah she did oh she she was green no but not fully not not a full human she Did she play Greedo? No. It doesn't bother you that they brought Jackman, Patrick Stewart, to such a moving conclusion. And then they were just like,

ha ha, let's fucking dig this guy's bones up. No, because I think that's the tone. It did bother you? That's the tone and intention of Deadpool and Wolverine, and that's what happens in the multiverse. Am I not allowed to be bothered? Is that your point? No, you are allowed to be bothered.

No, just that you're a pretty easygoing guy. Not today. Not today. Not about baboons or Wolverines. You don't like Logan? No, I love Logan. I absolutely love Logan. I'm trying to think if I was bothered by that or not.

I think I view Deadpool and Wolverine as like the mad magazine issue about a Marvel movie I don't really think of it as in that because that generation that era of Marvel movie 17 18 19 I was personally like these are actually good I was going to the bat

every week on the pod and being like I promise like these are good I've seen so many fucking movies in my life. The idea of like them getting this kind of coordinated storytelling right in succession

over a period of years is fucking crazy and we have to acknowledge it while it's happening. And now when you see what's happened in the last five years you can kind of see you know

Logan even at the time got a screenplay nomination. Yeah. It was a little bit outside of like the kind of. It was made by a serious tour and not under the Feige thumb Yeah, and it was a little bit outside of the kind of... It was made by a serious auteur and not under the

Feige thumb or whatever, but it's a very, very good movie. I think you could make the case it's now a little overrated because of all that stuff. You know? It's interesting. Like, I had a lot more fun at Infinity War than I did at Logan. I think Logan's a better movie. What was a more fun movie experience for me?

For me, it was Infinity War. Infinity War is the first one. Endgame's the second. Correct. I saw Infinity War with you and you don't remember that we saw it together. We saw it the day it came out. Kills me. He has no memory of this.

That kills you? Yeah, because it's one of my two favorite Marvel movies. I mean, Chris is getting older. This is only going to get worse. My memory's pretty sharp. It was a very, very, very important movie-going moment for me and Chris has no memory that we share. Mel, I just don't know.

Like, I remember seeing the movie. I just don't. What did we. Did we kiss afterwards? Like, what happened? If only. If only. I'm still waiting.

All this time later. We're going to snuff. Let's make out. Like, I don't even know. I remember getting up and being like, that was good. You know? You bring this up like every nine months. I'm like, that was good. You bring this up every nine months. I'm like, what happened that day?

You and Mal racing to a bomb shelter together because Vision got snapped. It's incredible. No, I mean, that's not what happened to Vision. We're learning so much on this pod. Do you think my memory's getting worse? No, I made a joke yesterday. The three of us were on a call together,

and I don't remember what event we were discussing, but I think I literally said that was before my daughter was born, so that memory does exist for me. I was talking about you two. I remember I was talking about finding a picture on my phone of the two of you at the vending machine at our old office, like, furiously shaking it.

I have one picture where you're just, like, shaking the vending machine. It's like, what could this be for? And then the next picture where you're triumphantly holding a cinnamon cinnamon roll hot like a honey yeah a honey bun and chris chris remembered yeah and you did not no i gave that over to alice she can have all those memories that just been siphoned from my mind forever i'm gonna find this photo again and i'm gonna it's gonna be my first post on blue sky i don't even remember there being a vending machine at the old office. Oh, yeah. Outside.

Literally right outside our door. I'm sure I've dumped like roughly $840 into it over the course of our time there, but I have no recollection. I didn't use it that much. No. You're too good for that. You're about the macros. No, remember I used to go to that weird fucking Walgreens and come back with like 10 pounds

of candy? Oh, yeah. I do remember that. That was great. That was sick. That was, yeah. Your circuit was the Sweetgreen, the Tamarind Deli. Yeah.

And it was. And Rubies and Diamonds. You spent $14 on a coffee. Oh, my God. I love that Rubies and Diamonds. That afternoon routine of the coconut sea salt cold brew. And what was the iced tea? And then I would say, chris you want anything you say

green tea no sweetener that was from starbucks right and then sure and then you'd go to speak when you say you want anything i would say yes and then uh at some point a couple years in oh yeah i've been on hume five hundred dollars for all of the salads and he would not accept it it was the craziest thing anyone's ever done it and he would turn it to me. You declined the Venmo. It was the craziest thing anyone's ever done. Honestly. It was, if you want to know like

how did Joker get the phone into this guy's chest? I was just like, what happened? And Mal was like, I feel like you always get me salads and I'm like, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, it's like a lot of lunches over the years, you know? Like, I got her like eight salads and she tried to give me $500. I've been a lot of toppings. I don't want to be in anyone's debt ever. It was so fucking crazy. I bet I still have the Venmo notification where I was just like,

what are you doing? And you were like, I don't know. Can I take it back? And I'm like, take it back. It was when we were in offices next to each other. So like I did it from across the wall.

And then he just like appeared around the door. It's like, did you mean to send this to me? I thought she was sending like 50 bucks and even that I was like no that's too much money for the eight

kale caesars I got you. What did you who did you think she could have possibly been sending that amount of money to? Like who are some of the other candidates

for that transaction? Great question. Yeah. I don't think your memory is getting worse. I think our memories are getting worse. We're getting old.

Yeah. And we just have too much shit in there now. Yeah, agree. Agree. We didn't really get a chance to talk about these final number ones. There's one more movie to talk about. So my number one is Mad Max Fury Road. Mal's number one is Before Midnight.

Your number one, Chris, is my number five. What is it? It's Color of Money, which I still think is the most magical revisiting of like a, and frankly, better than the original to me, revisiting of like a text and like exploring like who this guy would have been after years after the Hustler returning to Eddie Felsen

and just being like, now we find Paul Newman in his Twilight. Now we find Paul Newman bringing up a new protege. And it's just like fucking Scorsese and Richard Price dealing. New Richard Price novel out now. I saw that. Have you read it? I got a PDF.

Do a book club. You got a PDF? Yeah. From whom? From his publicist. Yeah. It's out. Because you don't want to pay for it.

If he had accepted the Venmo. That's a good point. You haven't paid for a movie in five years then, right? What do you mean? When's the last time you were like, I'm paying and not getting reimbursed for a film? I go to rep screenings all the time. Oh, you don't expense those?

No. No, I'm not trying to catch you. I'm trying to say like, do you ever say like, tonight I just give my money back to hollywood what are you fucking talking about you have much physical media i buy oh that's true that's true that's true you know much of my personal wealth i have dumped back into hollywood throwing away all your memories for your daughter i thought you maybe saved some money for her too i mean

one thing i should not be giving any more money to is hollywood what are you putting your personal wealth into? Bitcoin. Yeah. Of course. How is the, as you get on and years, the cranking it? Is everything still, all is good? What, masturbating or buying?

Buying meme coins? Cranking it and buying crypto are sort of like your two, those are your twin hobbies. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, like I probably spend way more time like on Bitcoin than I do cranking it. I wasn't waiting. I could have taken a turn there.

Okay, great. Very good pod. Very nice to be reunited with you guys here. Sincerely, did you have fun? On this pod? Yeah. Oh my, are you serious? Yeah.

The best. I love you guys. I can't think of two more gifted baboons. Two of the closest people in the world to me. Do you think that when you ask, what did you think of Gladiator 2, or what did you think of Wicked or whatever, we should start creating a rating system of some sort to just absolutely geolocate our take? I want to say that was a 7.25 out of 10.

No. I think this is a podcast about nuance. I can't say I agree with that. Three Mike and Ikes out of five. Why does it have to be numerical? Why are we bound by the traditional metrics? I think how many times will I watch this movie and consider whipping it out? Do I want Vivek and Elon to cut funding to this movie?

No. So that was my like. Yeah. No, I don't want to do that. I think I sometimes in the process of talking about a movie, I'll say like, oh, it's like a Gentleman's Six or it feels like a seven out of ten. Yeah. But I feel inconsistent in that.

And I also, personally, on second watches or third watches of movies, changed my opinion. Generally. Yeah. So I just mentioned the Doctor Sleep thing where I watched that movie and I was like, oh, it's like three stars. Yeah. Two and a half stars. Right.

And I watched it again and I was like, this, it's like three stars, two and a half stars. And I watched it again and I was like, this is one of my favorite movies in the last 10 years. I assume, I expect and assume that when I watch Gladiator 2 again I will like it even more.

More? Yes. Okay, that's an interesting question. I do too. What do you think? You think so too? Because the little things that pull you out of it

are just, you have accepted by that point. You understand that that's the texture consuming and then you can just, like you said earlier, watch it on its own. Because I think the first time

you watch it, you're like, let's fucking go. Let's go. And then you're like, what? I earlier, watch it on its own. Because I think the first time you watch it, you're like, let's fucking go. Let's go. And then you're like, what? I'll give it a Canadian five and a half.

Okay, well, an honor and a pleasure. Thank you both, Mallory. We can hear you on House of R and nowhere else. Only when I'm invited to join one of you on your podcast. Otherwise, just House of R currently. else only when I'm invited to join

one of you on your podcast otherwise just House of R currently where can we hear you the big picture you've been

you've been how many consecutive episodes of New York Near have you been on now I haven't we can never make the schedules work it's tough

it's unfortunate have you been watching Carl Anthony Towns no I don't watch basketball anymore that's tough. Two and 12, eh? I have to go do this with Bill in like 20 minutes.

I'm like, fuck off. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner. Thanks to Olivia Creary filling in for Bobby this week. Next week on the show, we will dig into the other huge movie this week. Maybe the episode I should have done for the Friday, honestly, given the level of interest.

But we'll be talking about Wicked. Wonderful. Which is also Wicked Part 1. Who's doing Wicked? Critical guest, another important person in our life,

Juliette Lippman. Oh! Four of us have still not podded together. That's true. You want to put that out in the world. It'll be the last pod

we ever do. In the history of The Ringer and Grantland, the three of us and Juliet have never podcasted together. No. Have we never done a hottest take together?

No. We have never done a podcast together. I would say, famously or infamously inside of our friend group, we did Inglourious Bastards without Juliet,

as she likes to remind us. That did happen. I have no rebuttal to that. But if you guys want to, if you check out Wicked Part 1 over the weekend and you want to get involved. Always say au revoir Shoshona to each other. You do say that. Yeah. So you were the key betrayer in that

equation. Yeah, I guess I was. I apologize to Juliet. Will you watch, will you see Wicked? No. I will. You will watch it. Oh, definitely. In a movie theater. Isn't Wicked more IP than Gladiator even? Like, isn't it a house of you see wicked no I will you will watch it oh definitely a movie theater uh more IP than gladiator even like isn't it a house of our episode could have been you just chose not it's a witch

have to follow through on the hype draft this is because it's about women or like what's the issue yeah we don't like women okay but we will be doing a lot of thighs a clock talk deep deep dune sisterhood prophecy in prophecy yeah right we'll be covering that weekly. You really got the title.

Right there. For the TV podcaster. The only TV show that's good is Lamb Man. It is honestly, it's better than Sopranos. It's like so fucking good. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Outro Music