The Big Picture - Guillermo del Toro’s ‘Frankenstein’ and the Best Frankenstein Movies. Plus: Jennifer Lawrence Is Ablaze in ‘Die My Love.’

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Rob Mahoney to cover a pair of new releases, but before diving in, they react to two new movie trailers for ‘Michael’ and ‘The Testament of Ann Lee’ and the news that a ‘Miss Piggy’ movie from Cole Escola, Jennifer Lawrence, and Emma Stone is in development (0:53). Then, they unpack Guillermo del Toro’s ‘Frankenstein,’ starring Oscar Isaac and Jacob Elordi. They talk through the divisive reception to the film thus far, explain why the second half of the film is much stronger than the first, and hypothesize what its awards chances are (9:26). Finally, they cover Lynne Ramsay’s new psychological thriller, ‘Die My Love,’ starring Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson, which they all thoroughly enjoyed and view as Lawrence’s best performance of her career (57:53). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Rob Mahoney Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Predator Badlands. Now playing, only in theaters. I'm Sean Fennacy. And this is the big picture of conversation show about fatherhood and motherhood. We're here with our large adult son, Rob Mahoney. On today's episode, we're going to talk about Guillermo del Toro's adaptation of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, which is now streaming on Netflix. This is a massive spectacle of a movie and obviously tremendously personal. El Toro, so we will dig deep into his vision, I suppose.

Sure. Later in this episode, we'll also discuss another vision, Lynn Ramsey's Die My Love, which is a searing new drama starring Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson, and is about how being a mom is extremely cool. You guys excited? Oh, thrilled. Yes. All right, let's talk about some news before we talk about those two big feasts of a movie.

The first thing that happened this morning is that there is a new trailer for Antoine Fouquo's Michael, which is a new. musical biopic about the life of Michael Jackson, who is a normal person for whom there is no controversy. And we don't have to explore any of those ideas. No legal disputes. Nope. We need to see a great artist perform his music as we must in all musical biopics. Amanda, what did you think of the Michael trailer? Well, I watched it under duress. We watched it here together. And it was a little bit because I had seen a still photograph of Miles Teller's wig from this trailer on the internet.

How would you describe it for the people who have to see it? And I said, that's enough for me. Well, it's very flat. I guess in that sense, it's sitting well on the head better than some wigs that we see. Shoulder length-esque, right? Sort of like he was not unkempt enough to be in a like off-Broadway production of hair, the musical. For context, Miles Teller is playing Michael

Jackson's attorney in this. Sure. Yeah. Which gives you some insight into what some of the movie will be about. Perhaps. So I saw that wig plus I'm trying when I can to avoid trailers because I like to go in fresh to a movie. Plus, this just seems like a real

big headache, you know? And we're going to, we have a job. And if we still have this job in April 2026, like I'll see it. I guess we'll talk about it. But I'm trying to wait, you know, for as long. as long as possible. On the other side of the door, I think as long as you possibly can't.

You had a very negative reaction to the trailer. It looks bad. Yeah. Like, it looks low rent. It looks like an extension of the Bob Marley into Bruce Springsteen, like devolution that we're all going through with this stuff. You have seen Deliver Me From Nowhere?

You guys successfully steered me away from it. So you didn't even go. I was like, the reviews coming off of the big picture are so scathing that I simply cannot be bothered to watch it before it goes on street. Yeah. It's definitely not worth showing up for. This movie I do think people are going to show up for.

There's a lot has been going on with this film over the last few years. I remember quite vividly at two cinema cons ago. There was a presentation of footage from this movie because they've been working on it for some years. Graham King, the producer who produced Bohemian Rhapsody, came out and showed us some of the footage, including, you know, featuring one of Michael Jackson's relatives, playing Michael in the film. And in the room, the theatrical exhibitors were like put it inside of me now, you know, that there was so much excitement because this was such a sure thing

coming off of this wave of, you know, Bohemian Rhapsody, Elvis, movies like this really working. Now, we're in a little bit of a slide at the moment on this kind of film. And then, as Matt Bellany reported, I want to say it was last year, there's been some critical legal issues

around what appears in the movie and some major errors were made in terms of what the story was even allowed to explore relative to the Jackson estate and some of the settlements that were made with some of his accusers. So they kind of had to rip up the third act, apparently, and push back the release date.

Now, there's one interesting piece of context around that. We just came out of the worst October at the movies in, like, 25 years. One of the reasons for that is because this movie was supposed to come out in October, and it got pushed because of this problem. And then the other thing that happened is the Mortal Kombat 2 also got pushed into May.

You think that had a huge ripple effect? Honestly, it would have been the biggest movie on Halloween, and it didn't come out. So those two movies not coming out, I think contributed to what happened here. But it's probably good that Michael didn't come out because everybody who made it would have been sued straight to hell. And that means... Again? Yes.

So those are just kind of like some legal scaffolding around. It looks like a pretty mediocre movie about an artist that we already know quite a great deal about. How are all those legal troubles sitting with you and your fellow capitalists who are so excited about the prospects of this movie financially? Yeah, I mean, you know, I want people going to movie theaters, but I'm much more interested in good movies. movies than people go into movie theaters. And this looks pretty rote. You know, it looks very familiar. There is a, like, a polish to the cinematography and production design that almost feels like AI. Yeah. You know, it really feels like it's like a SORA version of just recreating something that we watched in our childhood, you know, the rise of this massive

pop star over time. So, I don't, you know, artistically, what's this, what's this movie going to tell me that I didn't know about Michael Jackson? Absolutely nothing. I've got to be honest, though. Like, if we are being as honest we can be, like, you know, like Mama Say, Mama Say starts starting in the trailer and you're just like, okay, here we go. The music is still amazing. It's, it's hard. You don't need this for me to tell you that. That's true. And it's really, really hard to separate the art from the artist when you are making a musical biopic about the artist, even though, as I understand it, it was the resolution of this legal dispute and the delay that this is Michael Part 1.

So that isn't indicated in the trailer. So there was a suggestion that they were going to break the movie into two. And that may still be the case. Famously, I saw Dune and didn't know it was about to say. So this could be a similar situation where it could be Michael Cullen Part 2. Oh, my God. I'm honestly not sure. Then that they would have kicked some of the quote unquote problematic aspects of the story.

Right. Part 1 could have featured zero lawyers instead of at least one. Right. We'll see what happens. There was a slightly less controversial trailer that was also released this morning. for a film that Amanda and I have seen, you've not yet had a chance to see Rob, the Testament of Anne Lee, which is Mona Fastfold's new movie,

another biopic of sorts, about the founder of the Shaker movement, who's portrayed by Amanda Seifred in the film. So you haven't seen it. You didn't know what to expect. None. I mean, based on talent, sure. And it just fucking rips.

Very well-assembled trailer. Speaks to me very directly. I mean, anytime you can get a percussive, rhythmic element of just like somebody slamming blacksmith steel into your trailer, you should do it for the record. And anytime you can put Amanda Seyfried in your movie, you should also do that.

Yeah, she's very, very just remarkable in this movie. Can't wait. It's a very interesting movie. I would say not a perfect movie, but a fascinating movie. And at times, ecstatic. Especially the first half. I really liked this movie.

I liked not knowing what to expect from this movie. So I hope that this trailer is all that you watch. It's appropriately mysterious. Yeah. Like, very cool. And I'm really excited that it got acquired and is going to be, in the mix later this year for the awards race.

Okay, the third and final piece of news which you guys shared with me this morning. There is a Miss Piggy movie happening. Sure. This movie is going to be written by Coloscola, and we know because they told the Las Colterichis podcast that Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrence are going to produce the movie. Jennifer Lawrence did.

And then she went on one of the late night shows and gave a little more information on what's happening. What is happening? Well, she said that it came to her during COVID lockdown when everyone was in their rooms and also everyone was being canceled. And somehow they were talking about... Is this about the cancellation of Miss Piggy? No, she's an amazing idea.

She said that that is what sparked it. And then she turns to the audience. She's great. She's just like, that is not entirely the plot. Entirely, though. But it's really, really good. And then she said that she went to Emma Stone. After the hunt colon, Miss Piggy.

Yeah. And Emma Stone, she's like, Emma Stone. She's like Emma Stone is a shark, so she's the business person, you know, and it was explaining their collaboration, and then she mentioned that Klaus Gola is writing it. Wonderful stuff. It's just thrilling. As a longtime Muppets dork, this is incredible news. She also mentioned that Emma Stone is like the Muppets dork of the three.

So that, once again, your dream. Just one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. And so unsurprising. But you totally missed this on the internet? I didn't see it. You know what I meant to ask you the other week, and we should have talked about when we talked about the mastermind. So did you know that the Louvre got robbed? I did. You did, that did make it to you. Okay. How could that miss me? There's like a whole like personal interest or

you know like weird news section of the world that Sean just regularly. If it's about like something crazy in the sea, I don't know what's going on. Okay. That makes sense. Has a whale done something? I don't know. I'm sure you they have. You can't trust them. Do you know what the password was at the Louvre? Oh, this is big. I read it but I don't remember. It was Lou. It was Lou. Just a step up from one, two, three, four. That's just not ideal. Anyway, yeah, the Miss Piggy movie news was everywhere on my internet. But welcome aboard.

Well, I'm happy to learn about it, and I hope that film actually gets made. A film that has been made is Frankenstein. Let's speak of this film now. It has. This, as I mentioned, is written and directed by Guillermo Del Toro. This is Del Toro's 13th film as a director. It's based on the Mary Shelley novel, which you may or may not remember, has the subtitle, Frankenstein semicolon, or comma, the modern Prometheus.

Which should tell you a lot about this film's perspective. You don't think Frankenstein's a modern Prometheus? Well, is this Frankenstein a modern Prometheus? I can assure you not. It is, it stars Oscar Isaac, Jacob Allorty, Mia Goth, Charles Dance, Felix Camerer, who people may remember from All Quiet on the Western Front. And let's talk about it right now. Christoph Waltz.

Oh, yeah, Christoph Waltz, well. You can see, we'll be able to figure out why I've forgotten about him already. This is Frankenstein. It follows the life of a scientist who wants to revivify a corpse and create new life. Yeah. And the trials and travails he encounters along the way, learning how to be a dad of the undead. Can I start with a question? Yes, you may.

Inspired by some, you know, pre-recording text messaging that the two of us were doing while one person observed. So you guys are pretty big into Frankenstein? No. Well, are you not? Could you? I wouldn't say that I am either. Okay. I know a lot about it

All right Could you please explain your complicated relationship to Frankenstein? This is not a character I care about a lot Okay Why have you seen so many

Frankenstein movies then? They just kind of make their way to you But I think the problem is that many of them are not very good Yeah It's a pretty limited list

And they're like The influences wide The parody is everywhere Like you can't escape Frankenstein But I don't care about Frankenstein in the way That I care about Dracula Like the iconography

She is there, but there's not a lot of soul there, you know? Well, we, you know, me, Robin Chris... Or isn't there. They're certainly trying. Me, Robin Chris, did an episode about Nassfratu. I listened to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we had a lot of fun talking about the kind of long history of the vampire

movie and the Dracula movie. And there is a very long history of Frankenstein films. This is a rare case or the original, or not maybe not the original, but the James Whale version from the 30s looms very large over film history. It is widely considered one of the most... critical texts in all of movie history. And the fact that we live in a time now when horror movies are so important to movies,

it feels even bigger. There have been a lot of Frankenstein movies. Tons. There have been some adaptations of the novel. Most of them are using the novel as a kind of a springboard. And then there's been this whole group of movies, which I'll talk about after we talk about the Del Toro movie, that are basically cribbing the core idea

and then making a completely different kind of movie. Before we get to all that, I wanted to start with you to talk about Del Toro's version because Amanda and I have sort of briefly been a bit rude about the film coming out of festivals and we both went to go see it a second time just to make sure that we saw

what we saw. Still feel rude. Yeah, but so I'm very curious how you feel about it. I liked it. Again, this is not a character who I have a strong attachment to, but if you're going to make a Frankenstein story, this is the guy you go to to do it. And I think this is sort of the spirit in which you want to attempt it. Try to

make it new. Try to introduce some new wrinkles. Try to find like some spark of life, if you'll allow it, like, in the story beyond what we've already, like, worn into the ground, I think it kind of gets there and is mostly successful, and I like the movie, but don't love it. Okay. Can I ask in what context you saw the film? I saw it in a full theater here in Los Angeles, which I have many questions about why that's not a widely available experience. I don't know why this was not a movie released in October. Why any of that stuff was happening. Very curious to me, but

ultimately like a lively viewing experience. How did you see it? Well, I saw it at the Venice Film Festival and then I saw it again yesterday, also in a theater, a matinee, with more people than are usually at this local theater for a Wednesday matinee. This is a very Venice vibe, though, this movie. Yes, though I don't think that... Or Switzerland. Or the North Pole. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah, I mean, it's

definitely... Venice is, there's more velvet in Venice as opposed to like whatever weird substances are going on here and they're more colors. Yes. The desaturation here is something that I'd like to discuss. Did your second viewing on earth anything

new for you? I think that it made me understand that I find, in addition to the fact that I do not like the way that it looks visually. And that I

I don't really care that much about Frankenstein, the story. I find the interpretation of this story a little facile, even within that context. I know this is a project that Del Toro has been wanting to make since he was a child and, you know, discovered the book. I've been talking about it since the 2000s, yeah. And it looms large over so much of his work. And I feel that he has interpreted the Frankenstein story in much better ways. in the movies that he made before this. So, eat shit, Mary Shelley.

Eat shit, childhood, Guillermo Del Toro. You're just, like, stomping on dreams and legacies out here. I feel bad about it. I think that, I mean, I do just think that it looks bad. And, well, we can talk about it. You should explore the ways in which that, because I think that there will be, this is going to be a, it already is a divisive movie.

Yeah. I think there are people who have been following Del Toro's work very closely that love it, and there are people who have been following Del Toros work very closely that are kind of like a little sick of this. And I'm a little bit worn out, I think, on some of this. And I think also the Netflix era of Deltoro's work has augured this curious visual transformation that I'm not stoked about. And this one is like a, it's a, I don't hate this movie, but I definitely don't love it. And there's things I admire about it and things I really like borderline revile about it.

And I'm curious what you mean by Fast Island in terms of the interpretation of the story. Like, what are the changes or the things that he's reading into it that you think are not working? I just, brother, you are the monster. You know, I've grown the first time. But it is, like, it is an adaptation of a novel, but he's been doing more complex work with these ideas, whether it's about, you know, humanity and creation and the God complex. And I don't know what it's like having a dad that's mean to you and, like, being obsessed with mother and like just and feeling like an outsider from the world and what is family and what is love

and like what is a human and like what is man and what is monster and how do they mix and this is just like a real literal to the point that they have the brother say you are the monster at the end and I was like yeah you know I did get that you were going with that there's no there's no nuance and there's not a lot of thematic depth beyond, I mean, it is like, you know, a very gothic, pulpy story and, like, plot's great. Roger Eberd and I agree, but I've seen all that before, and I don't think I saw anything more than the plot. Some of that is just Del Toro.

Like, there are three lines in every movie he makes. It's like, did you really have to say that out loud? Right. And I think the tradeoff is like, if you're dealing in archetype and myth, which he is doing, whether he's creating it or adapting it, do you need the cool line? Like, do you need it to be less than obvious? Like, there is something about his movies

that is elemental that when it works, it really, really clicks. And it feels like a story that's always been part of your life. This kind of does feel old at certain parts. I admire the ways in which he tries to make it new. But, like, I think some of that is unavoidable for the way he makes movies and wants to make movies.

It's why he's never been, like, a huge... And, you know, at some point, I don't really respond to monster stories in the same way. like I don't need it embedded in like an archetype and myth. Like the monsters are all around us in real life, see part two of this, you know, conversation for like another way in which I respond to different explorations of the human experience.

But yeah, some of it was just a little silly. He's had this interesting evolution as a director where, you know, his first few films, some of them are about actual monsters that don't have a lot of depth in terms of where they came. from, you know, what they're, you know, Kronos and mimic his first American movie. These are like real classic monster movies. And over time, he's gotten increasingly fascinated

by the idea of, like, the monster is misunderstood. He should be better, he should be looked at as just as human as you or I. And he keeps going back to that concept over and over again. With Pinocchio, he talked about how he wanted to make Pinocchio like a Frankenstein movie, and he wants to make this movie like a Pinocchio movie. He made Pinocchio a fascist. I mean, he was existing in a fascist time.

Papa. I do think Pinocchio is a better Frankenstein movie than this is a Frankenstein movie, ultimately. Well, I think it's because that movie is pretty scary, and this movie is a scary at all. Not at all. And I think that he has way too much empathy for the monster in this movie.

And I, you know, it's probably a facile reading on my part to say, like, he just sees himself as the monster. The person that he's comporting his personality into is the person who has, like, kind of been victimized, but will rise above. Sure. And that has been very present in a lot of his films in Nightmare Alley and Shape of Water,

Like, that's in all those movies. And so he's kind of beating this drum. With some filmmakers who we like will say, like, well, that's a, that's a theme that they return to it. It's a motif. In the case of this movie, to me, it's ultimately because the movie itself is just not as good, so I'm not willing to allow it. Well, also, he does identify with the creature, and this film is divided into two pretty

unequal parts, part one, the creator's tale, and part two, the creature's tale. Creature's Tale, for my money, is way more involving. You can tell that's where his heart is. It has the better performance from Jacob Allorty. But you sit through almost two hours of, like, Oscar Isaac is never bad. He's just sort of, he's cast in an island of, you know, a weird CGI tower and a very, very broad British accent. Sort of like Morgan Spector on the Gilded Age, like, level. And Morgan Spector's great on the Gilded Age.

But, you know, like, we're playing to the back of the theater. Completely. There's a lot of like, I shan't ever do that. Exactly. Exactly. And it's, but the movie just has to spend so much time with the creator first. And it's like, it's... The thing is, is that it didn't have to.

Well, I agree. But he makes that choice. And so we have to. And I'm like, why didn't you just make the second half? He is in the Who Says No to this guy era of his career. Like, where is the edit that takes 10 minutes out of the creator part of the story? And I think, honestly, part of the reason that section is as long as it is, because I agree with both of you

that he identifies with the creature on some level. He wants to tell the creature's story. There's like the self-flagellating I am also Victor Frankenstein part of him that's like, I think putting himself through the paces of making this guy miserable and terrible almost inexplicably

that also appeals to a story he's trying to tell. It's just too long a story and as you're saying, doesn't have enough going for it. It does do... Here's one thing I'm very cynical about about this movie. So the film opens with a prelude, which is a critical part

part of the Shelley novel as well about the ship and the captain that are on a journey and they eventually encounter Victor in the Arctic because Victor is chasing the monster to kill the monster. But the film opens with that and it manages to turn what is represented in the novel as a series of letters from the captain into a big action sequence. Now, the cynical part of my brain says that we're about to have a 90-minute stretch of costume drama. So just to make sure that you don't turn this movie off,

we need to have the monster throwing a bunch of sailors into a ship. That stuff doesn't look great. No. The CGI in this movie is not very strong. No. And it sets you up for a certain kind of like adventure monster movie that this just is not. This is a sensitive drama about a scientist and his lost love. And a lot of that stuff is not rendered great and you can dispute it or not.

But the movie does that thing that a lot of TV shows do all the time now where they show you, the end at the beginning. And then they're like, how did we get here? Yeah. And then they go back to the very beginning. And then they start telling the story. When they go back to that wide shot in the Arctic, I was like, this is the only truly beautiful thing in this movie. That's not true. There are a couple other sequences. But they built the goddamn ship. Like the ship looks great. Well, why is everything around it? I don't know. It looks like a set. And the home, you can see the sets. And it's like very, like, I don't have a problem with that because they're going for like a soundstage thing. I think it's they're going for like the

the kind of fuzziness of this time in history sure you know especially more in the mansion in the homes that there is like an artificiality to a lot of it because everything is kind of bought and hung but the thing that I kept thinking about this even watching this the second time is that

this movie is actually just more interested in the depth of its sets than in the depth of its characters that it is ultimately it is beautifully adorned not beautifully shot I feel like there's something in the filmmaking style where del Toro now is like really interested in the wide shot and showing you everything that he built,

but then that detracts a little bit from what he's trying to say. And I felt that all the way up until it already comes to life. And we can talk about the merits of that part of the film, too. For sure. I don't know. I don't know whether the cinematography,

it's flat, it has like almost the motion smoothing aspect to it. And I don't know whether that's because it's being engineered for, you know, Netflix. I watched it on screens both times, but I assume they were digital. How did it look on film? Did you go see it on film? Better.

Didn't change the, particularly whenever the CGI comes into play. There's a series of moments, you know, there's a very big explosive scene in the middle of the movie where a tower is on fire. It just doesn't look good. I mean, it's a $120 million movie. It just doesn't look good. I just kept waiting for the crimson peak moment for me, which is like, that's a movie that I think is more style than substance in a lot of ways.

But it has so much visual flare and so much love of, like, color and contrast. And this is so gray. Like, other than Elizabeth's dresses, where, but they just have her style to look like a big old bug in a way that I really do like? I think the costuming is very good. The costume is great. And she, you know, she is wearing red as a motif

where everyone else is like very purposefully washed out. And so she has this beautiful red dress like in one wide outdoor shot. It's outdoors. Thank you. And then the red umbrella that follows her. And then I think the sequence one, spoiler alert, she dies. And the monster carries her into the tomb and her dress

like becomes like a different, like this, this looks beautiful, you know, and this is, the images matching, like, the themes and the setting. But otherwise, yeah, man, it just, it looks yucky. And like, and like, kind of remarkably like the, like, wicked and like one of the rooms in wicked. Like, even the windows, I was like, I've seen those before. And it's right before Elphaba and that guy do like a silent mime dance for 10 minutes. That's the bummer, though, because, like, Del Toro is one of the few filmmakers who still gets the latitude and the budget to do, at least in a lot of cases, big practical stuff,

where it looks lavish, and they get hundreds of extras. Like, he has a leeway that many guys and women making films do not have. He's also very vocal about this. I mean, he talks about it constantly about the necessity of physical creation, and he's been extremely vocal about AI in the last year or so. And to me, I see what he is attempting. I'm a pretty big fan. of his. A lot of his movies

resonate with me. I do feel like he's kind of just like spinning his own wheels a little bit here in terms of the story. Now, I do want to talk a little bit about what does work in the movie, and specifically because you ultimately came out liking it. I think the first

half is not very effective personally. I think Lordy has been getting very high marks for his performance. I think very understandable. I think that's one of the first things that we said when we talked about it out of the festivals. Why is that part so much more effective, do you think, than the first half of this movie? I think his, like, honestly, the creature, and you can tell that Del Toro cares about him so much,

by the fact that it's one of Del Toro's most emotionally well-developed characters. Like, he's not someone who spends a lot of time developing a lot of interiority. It's all visual. It's all, again, myth. It's like these very, everyone is kind of filling a role in his stories, typically. It's an archetype. This feels like someone who, for better or worse, you spend a lot of, time inside his head. And now narration from a creature may not be your cup of tea. And I wouldn't

blame you if it wasn't. But like they actually do dedicate a lot of time in understanding him in a way that they don't even with Victor Frankenstein. Why Victor Frankenstein makes the series of choices that he does other than he's obsessed in the beginning of the story. And then ultimately doesn't even think about what he's going to do if he gets the thing that he wants. Like the next day, it's kind of like the dog chasing the mailman kind of situation. Like what would I even do if I caught him, but the story kind of stops there, and there's no other exploration of what Victor Frankenstein is about at all, really. That's not the case for the creature, and so I think there is something a little more well

articulated there. So in the novel and in other adaptations of this story, the monster is more of a monster and more violent and more responsible for the tragedies in the story. This movie very purposefully shifts almost all of the blame, for lack of a better word, onto Victor, that Victor is the architect of everything that is wrong in this world. And, you know, you've identified this as daddy issues. I think that's not unfair.

I mean, his father is played by Charles Dance, who... Tough typecasting for Charles Dance these days. When he can't name the right, you know, humors or whatever. You know Charles Dance has already played Victor Frankenstein's father in a film? That's true.

Yes. And then it's just... So there's just a lashing to the face. And then he loves his little brother more. and then Charles Dance dies. Yes. He's out. And so, well, you did leave out the part

where he is, like, gently fingering a model of a pregnant woman that is, like, the stand-in for his mom? Yeah, that was pretty weird. And then, you know, and it's, like, echoed as for coffin. And also Christopher Walt, the handle of Christopher Waltz's cane, Christopheff Waltz's cane, is also that same, I think that same figurine that he's towing with. We haven't even talked about Christoph Waltz

because in the first half, for some reason, the film, he's introduced a character who is a benefactor that allows Victor Frankenstein to conduct his experiments, I guess, and that benefactor also wants to be placed into the body of one of his revived corpses. He's dying of syphilis. Because we all know the stages of the disease.

Yes. But this is ultimately the situation is you can't have the del Toro decrepit manner if Victor Frankenstein himself had money. So somebody has to have money to pay him and apparently it needs to be like a war, like someone who arms a war profiteer. A war profiteer of a kind.

who therefore can also provide the bodies to make the Frankenstein. And we learned that you've got to take him from the middle of the pile. Yes, very important. Because they've been crushed at the bottom and exposed to the elements up above. Listen, like, I learned a lot about how Victor Frankenstein puts his science projects together. Yes. And they take really great care in, like, making all the gross muscles and the lebatics system and everything looks real. You know, like, it's, I feel, I feel.

sad for everyone involved that we're talking so much about the CGI. That does look bad because it is clear that so much care went into making so much of this. Without a doubt, I completely agree. But they're working at cross purposes, unfortunately. I think the challenge of this interpretation, and I welcome reinterpretation of any great work of art. I think film is a great medium for someone looking at a classic piece of literature and saying, like, what if it was more like this and I turn the dial to the left? In this case, if you make the monster wholly sympathetic. Not a little sympathetic, but also dangerous. Holy sympathetic.

It kind of drains the juice from the story. Or it makes it twilight. There is a component of that. There is a component of that. He just wants a companion. He's bad by wolves, you know, much like in Twilight. I think it just means that the movie's not going to be scary. Like, Boris Karloff built his career on being terrifying.

Is this supposed to be scary? an epic romance of Frankenstein to me is not very interesting sure um i think if it was going to spend more time with allorty and more of a psychological character portrait that might be a like a less event-packed film yeah and it might be more internal as you're describing but it would be different it would be different enough maybe to justify it and lordy is in this interesting position one they've redesigned the monster right so the makeup effects i think are really good in this movie and look awesome his practical visualization is very different from the Karloff character. It's very different from the character that

Christopher Lee played in the Hammer films. It's very different from even what's described in the Shelley books, which is like where the skin is like hanging off of the character and it's much more grotesque. This is like, it's kind of like Dr. Manhattan from Watchman. A little bit. You know, like a kind of a lean, powerful, sutured figure. Is that the guy that has sex to Hallelujah? I think that's Everyone watchmen to be made.

Yes, it is. Thank you for knowing that. Okay. Can we just say that the creature design is by Mikel. Yes. Who works with Del Toro. Yes. And frequently does amazing work.

And, you know, if you've seen Hellboy or, you know, even, I mean, what is the shape of water? The creature design is amazing in that movie. I mean, that's a very fuckable fish man, you know, famously. And he got fucked. Canonically. I like how he looks. I like a Lordy's performance, which is. kind of in the tradition of

a lot of silent cinema actors where he has to be tremendously expressive. He basically only gets to say the word Victor for roughly 40 minutes of the movie before he is taught by a kindly blind man how to spell and read. John Milton? Yes. He just turns out he's a visual learner. We're going about this

the wrong way. He is. Now my favorite shot in the movie when David Bradley is holding a card that says I and then the camera zoos in on his eye. And I was like, okay. Again, this is not the place you come for subtle thing. It's just not. It's not.

And then Lourty eventually, he learns the power of language and he protects the kindly old man until he can. And he learns about Paradise Lost. He does. And Paradise Lost, obviously, very important to Shelley.

And I think it's featured prominently in the novel as well as like a signpost for the creature. But the movie does then ultimately just become kind of like a revenge drama in the second half where the monster revisits his former home read some papers

strewn about after the fire there's a full-blown tower fire and then there's some papers around and he's like oh so this is how I came to be a person in the novel I think if I recall

the papers are in the clothes it's a little more organic with him yeah yeah I think there's a couple of like storytelling mechanics stuff that is a little wonky and then it just becomes like the Antarctic Chase movie into the finale and I don't know I I I didn't think this was very good me a goth innocent

oh yeah here's the problem yeah she of course to me is a living legend I will watch her do anything right I she needs to be crazy to be really effective in a movie and this is a very demure empathetic character I mean this is like you know manic pity pixie goth girl she just like She really likes insects, guys. She loves them. Yeah, and like in weird things. And it's, you know, and she loves him too. I mean, Deltora has a type.

Like, two types. Like, you're either pale and severe or you're pale and naive. And she's in the pale, she's in the chastain mold. Yes. The Kate Blanchet mold of what he likes to do. She's perfectly fine in this. Perfectly good. I was talking with Jack Sanders before.

I'm curious about what the sex appeal of Jacob Allorty as the creature is in this movie, because Elizabeth seems very, like, she meets him. him and within moments has grabbed his hands and put them around her throat. This is a woman who understands what she wants. But will audiences have a similar response? He's tall. He's tall. He's tall.

It's like that is, I mean, that is Jacob Lordy and that's just like very tall. And he just has tall energy wherever he goes. And it works. Was there any part of you that sees him as a mute giant man in a diaper? And he's like, I can fix him. I don't know if I could fix him. I'm, you know, I've matured past. You know, you can never fix.

You can only meet them where they are. Would you agree to be made his undead companion as he demands at the end of the film? No, because he seems pretty unhappy. You have bride energy, though. Do I? Yeah, Elsa, Lancaster, bride energy. Not like being a bride at a wedding. I don't have that energy.

No, you have, I am a shrieking undead monster. Okay, that's fine with me. But it just, it does seem like a long. time to just go around like he seems pretty uncomfortable you mean forever yeah yeah you know indestructible yeah is is this Frankenstein a little too powerful you want a power set him he has captain america's powers i mean he is indestructible he can take bullets right he's pushing a ship all by himself to that was a lot i don't know is captain america more powerful than superman no okay why did you invoke captain america instead of superman well i think you could probably

burn the creature to death? Can you? I think so. Well, I guess he escaped the fire. I think he wouldn't heal. But he literally catches on fire and says, I feel my flesh regrowing. Yeah. But if you burned him out before it could regenerate.

Maybe. I feel like this guy's indestructible. So we learned a lot. That's just magic. Impromptu science quarter. Impromptu science quarter. Welcome to Amanda Dobbins's Science Corner. So we learn that there's some sort of electricity that they've got to plug into the double lymphatic system, which is just above the heart and we're going in through the spine.

Yes, correct. So you got to short circuit the electricity. Uh-huh. Where was the electricity coming from? Lightning. Lightning. They harness the lightning. So.

This is how it happens. in every Frankenstein film. I think I went to the bathroom. This is the most epic set piece of the film. You think, I was just like really dark in there. And that's like, this sucks, you know? And I was like, that looks like wicked. When he gets into a dispute with Christoph Waltz's character.

Yes. Christoph Waltz attempts to steal one of the tools that's going to attach that allows the electricity to run a current into the corpse's body. Right. One of those tools, one of those kind of prongs falls on the ground and bends. Okay. And it bends ever so slightly to the right. Yep.

Okay. And when it's retrieved and screwed on, you see that somehow this tool, it's all very fallacy. Doesn't totally work properly. And because of this bend, this has somehow given the monster the powers of immortality. I think that's a limited experience and a limited worldview. But anyway. What do you mean? I'm just saying, you know, let me go continue.

Okay. The monster is very powerful in all of the stories Has superhuman strength and everything But he is legit a superhero He is a superhero But you don't think that if you caught the lightning again And like, you know Short-Sircated

The Lymphatic system I sat through a lot of science In this movie So now we're going to discuss it Honestly the science is one of the best parts The models the like the designs again Like the lymphatic notes I just am like

probably you could reverse the current if you had the right tools. Are you a physicist? I wasn't very good at physics. She's theoretical. So, as you know, some of my heritage is Swiss. We know.

Every World Cup we hear about it. This is very much what Swiss people are like. Swiss people are like, I know what the answer is. Like, they're just quite sure that they know how the lymphatic system will be re-energized with the current. And I'd like to salute them for acknowledging the Swiss for their humor.

collectively. What else do you want to say about this movie? What else do you like about it? How much can we talk about like the ending ending? Well, let's put a casing around it and say if you don't want to hear the ending. I mean, it's Frankenstein. It's not that different from Frankenstein.

It is a little different than Frankenstein. I would say one of the departures is changing it from the normal kind of climactic end of Frankenstein in which, yes, the creature survives, to one in which the message of it ultimately is around forgiveness. And this is where the idea of him being super-powered, I think, is kind of compelling.

A lot of Guillermo del Toro's stuff treats eternal life as like an unbelievable curse, an incredible burden. And if you were burdened with eternal life, one of the great burdens would be forgiving every asshole, whoever does you wrong, including your kind of father who cobbled you together from respective corpses. And so you can see, like, the interest in telling a story about, like, the larger human command being to forgive. If you are tasked with living forever, the greatest thing you could do would be to forgive

the people who have wronged you. And I think that it's a moving. sentiment that maybe doesn't quite get all the way there. To me, I read the very ending as, again, a somewhat simple-minded echo of something that Victor says to the monster earlier in the film. When he has exposed to sunlight, he says sunlight, go into the sun, sun gives you life. When the movie ends, he's pushed the ship off, they take off on their journey, and he stands alone in the sunlight. And now he's a creature that has life. Yeah. That's fine. That's like a little hallmark for me.

Where are they getting the brains? Like, are they wholesale or are they piecing together his brain? You mean like, are they getting them from Ralph's or? No, no, no. Is it like... Is it a whole food situation?

Well, I'd like to know, I'd like to, I'm trying to understand his memory and functions. Incredible. The frozen ones? Come on. So good. Are they just taking a wholesale brain from some guy in the war?

Yes. Yes. Because Christoph Waltz wanted it to be his brain. He wants it to be his brain. Right. So why doesn't he have the brain of someone, you know, of that guy.

Why doesn't he have those memories? I don't know how the human soul works, I got to say. I don't know. You just circled back to Science Corner here. Again, Science Corner is about asking or answering questions. I said it's a robust dialogue. Okay. Yeah.

This is the scientific method at work. We're not coming in saying this is what Tylenol does to you. We're saying we're going to try to prove it through science. Like those people sitting in the bleachers when he reanimates people. And we're just, we're going to discuss. Honestly, that would be great content. We have someone standing in the middle of an auditorium, a bunch of bringing staffers around them in powdered wig, shouting them down, encouraging them, just like a real

yay or nay situation based on takes a look. I have a note about that sequence, which features the great Ralph Inneson, who I love, one of the great voices in movies. He's very effective in this movie, too, as one of the court sort of like science judges who's telling the doctor to leave immediately. But what Dr. Frankenstein in that sequence shows them with the, you know, top half of the human, you know, the head and the chest and that functioning hand, when he throws him the ball and that corpse catches that ball

everybody in that room in what is the story taking place? 1855 would be like what? This is the single craziest thing that has happened in the history of the world that this man revived a body

and made it react and these three old men I understand that they would be afraid and that there is something against God in the work undoubtedly but to just like scuttle it and be like we'll never talk of this again the craziest thing that has happened

to the history of civilization You guys buy that? You sound a little bit like a tech bro defending AI right now just to put it on record. It's changing the world. That's not very nice. That's not how I feel about AI at all. Okay.

I think that this movie, what you said earlier is very true, which is that despite our many complaints and grouchy attitude about this, people do like this movie, and they would have gone to see it. It probably would have been, I don't know about a massive hit, but it would have been successful.

I also saw it in a movie theater, yesterday at the Chinese, which is a huge room, the IMAX theater at the Chinese theater. And it was about three quarters full in the afternoon on a Wednesday. Los Angeles is a unique town. Absolutely so. I thought it played well with the crowd, not great. But I'd like to tell you a crazy story.

I sat down, I got there a little early for the movie. And I sat in the front row of the upper section so that I could stretch my legs as much as I wanted. Just the height of privilege for you. I watched the previews and then just as the film was starting a very tall person walked past me to sit down two seats next to me.

This person was wearing a black hoodie and boots and it was Jacob Allorty. Wow. Honestly, I had some reservations about sharing this because I don't want to put this guy on front street. Sure.

I thought for certain you were going to say LeBron James. No. And I have really nothing else to say other than he watched this movie and he seemed to admire Oscar Isaac's performance because he was like, kind of like laughing at some key moments. Yes. But it was fascinating to be watching the movie sitting beside the monster.

Wow. And I felt a little uncomfortable. And it also was like, it was humanizing, you know? Yeah. He's an artist. I just saw this morning some images of him taking photos out of costume during the production of the movie because, you know, one, I think he's an aspiring photographer and two, he obviously was kind of blown away by the world that they had created.

Yeah. And it gave me, like, maybe a little bit more empathy for the process of this film. Did he have a bag with him? I don't know. God, it's just all of these experiences are wasted on you. I mean, I was sitting in the dark. Still, I think you would be able to spot the potato. He ate popcorn.

You know? Oh, okay, that's good. He ate popcorn. Right. I mean, it's fine. He was very polite when he walked past me to go to the restroom. Okay. Great.

I realize this is the social clip that's getting pulled from the sex. I don't like this is social clip. It's just you saying, I saw it. Jacob Allorty one time and he ate popcorn and people want that. This is the catnip. But I didn't just see him. I saw him during the film Franken's show. I like now you're like, well, I sat there because

I wanted to stretch my legs out because I too are tall like Jacob Allerty. I know. Yeah, nice try. You're not as tall as Jacob Allerty. But I'm tall enough to need to stretch my legs. I'm not even as tall as Rob Mahoney. Right. We're doing our best to the tall guys of America. We truly are. It's our burden, you know? Yes.

So anyway, I just thought I would share that. Okay. that's nice, that's very sweet that he wanted to do that, yeah. I was wondering how many times, if at all, he had seen it. Of course, he's been to the premiere of the film, but a lot of filmmakers and actors can't watch their work or don't want to see themselves on screen.

So in Venice, they tend to, they're front and center, so they don't leave. So if you're there, the premiere, you're there for it. You might have had the same mentality that I had, and I assume you had too, which is like, I want to see this on the big screen before, I can't see it on the big screen anymore. Awards chances.

Now, Rob, on the show, So, it's like 4,000. In recent weeks, we have been noting that it's been rising in the estimation of festival goers and seemingly some voting bodies. Yeah. We've kind of firmly planted it right smack in the middle of our best picture power rankings for best picture. I know you're not an expert, but you're assuming that this movie is going to make it into best picture. On a gut level, that still sounds surprising to me. Why do you would say that?

I don't know. I guess, to me, it is so, like, mid-level del Toro. It does have an audience, but is it. it's going to be enough of an awardsy audience and that kind of pull. And ultimately, I think whether it gets in is going to depend more on how the Allority performance in particular

sets with people. And if that's one that people are championing and feels like something that is rising to the top of the pile, then all of a sudden Frankenstein just gets into the mix in a totally different way. What do you think at this point? I think there's a huge amount of affection for Del Toro and there's a huge admiration for all of the production

design and costume design and physical work that did go into this movie. So despite the CGI of it all, I think you'll have below the line, you know, categories stacking up. And that will, that kind of brings the movie to more people's attention. Film, it's getting, you know, audience favorite awards at festivals. Jacob Allorty is pretty good and also has a significant following of, you know, me and many other people. He's a good person you want to see at the Academy Awards. Exactly.

You want to see a young star like him at the Academy Awards. So I am just because of the weird. Best Picture year, which we say every year now. There's no, there's no normal year. But the weird Netflix slate where it's just, it's a little early and it's hard to see how it's going to shake out. But they've got House of Dynamite, they've got Jay Kelly, they've got Frankenstein, and they've got train dreams, which I'm going to see this weekend. And it's, this seems like the grabiest at this point. I agree with that.

So let's talk about Best Supporting Actor. Okay. very interesting slate of potential nominees here. We've got Benicio del Toro for one battle after another. Bangor. Adam Sandler for Jay Kelly. We've got Delroy Lindo for sinners. We've got Stellan Scarsgaard for sentimental value.

We've got Sean Penn for one battle after another. We've got Paul Meskell for Hamlet. Oh, yeah. A loaded category. Yeah. And if you want to throw Miles Katen in from sinners too, you can do that as well. Deserving. If you want to throw Jeremy Strong in for Springsteen, maybe don't do that.

that is it's going to be not be easy for a Lordy to get in I think there has to be a really strong appreciation for him because I feel like at this point I feel strongly about Sean Penn and Benicio

I feel strongly about Sandler even though he's never been nominated before and I feel strongly about Stell and Scars card that fifth spot is kind of where he would go and Delroy Lindo is overlooking was overlooked for the Five Bloods recently. Maybe there's a sense that he needs to be recognized

before it's too late. He's so fabulous in Senators, too. He's really great. Great. They need to run a really good campaign for him, I think, for that to work out. So you're saying, a Lord, he needs to run a campaign. Did it ever occur to you that he followed you into that theater?

And was like, you know what? I need to get a little word of mouth going. I need to get a little good will. It's very sweet of you to say. I'm just saying. I think we all know that that's not true. If, in fact, he has a chance there, then you do need to see costume design.

makeup and hairstyling, score. Visual effects. Even if you don't like it, it's in play. Yeah. Editing, maybe if there's a ton of support, director, if there's an overwhelming amount of support. As you said, he has a lot of friends and has really liked.

And he does a thing, when I saw Nasferatu last year, he conducted the Q&A with... Yeah, he's the champion. Yes, with the filmmaker. He's the ombudsman of horror, basically, and I guess anything kind of horror adjacent. Yes. So I won't be surprised if this ends up getting six or seven or eight nominations, honestly.

Well, the design makeup stuff is a lock, I would think. I totally agree. As far as where he's at, so he's now made his fable, his vampire movie, his kaiju movie, his gothic romance, two comic book films, his noir, his universal monster movie, another universal monster movie, his Pinocchio, and his ghost story. he's kind of touched all sides of the Dungeons and Dragons die of genre filmmaking. I mean, he really has explored kind of the farthest reaches.

And one thing that I have been a little bit disappointed by, even though I really liked Nightmare Alley, is it's been a long time since he's made an original movie. Yeah. And I feel like he's a little lost in the sauce and not leaning into what really animates him. Like the guy who made Kronos and devil's backbone, like, I want to see that guy.

Sure. Well, and Pan's Labyrinth. It's his masterpiece, as far as I'm concerned. And that's like, that's an original tale that doesn't feel original. I would also love to see him make something contemporary for the first time in like 20 years. Like, everything is period all the time. And I know you love, again, like a Victorian manner and a certain kind of like buttoned up dress. And you want like the butterflies and the moths everywhere.

Like, that's cool. But can we do something set in the present day? No. It is hard to have original ideas. You're describing things that he had when he was younger. And I think that there is something to the idea he's been wanting to make this movie his whole career. And because he couldn't and or for whatever reason he got forced into other ways to interpret it, the projects that you wait forever for are sometimes a little labored.

And so, you know, I don't know. He's done a lot. Give him credit for that. But like I agree. I mean, I don't want another model. I'm sure I'll get one. There's going to be a monster in it. Yeah.

The monster is us. I mean, every time. No matter what. The movie of his that I have always longed for is at the mountains of madness, which is a HP Lovecraft adaptation that he was going to make in the 2000s with Tom Cruise. It is like an epic, cosmic horror monster movie that would have been on the same scale as Pacific Rim, but would have been more of a period kind of adventure story. Yeah.

that also is not original, but it would have been a little bit outside of the realm of a lot of the stuff that he's been doing in the last few years. You know, I want the best for him. I do too. I hope he's happy. And he shouldn't take any notes from me.

He should do whatever he wants. But it's just something that I'm saying that I want. Well, I do think we zeroed in on it, which is if we thought of the film more favorably, then the through lines would feel different. It would feel like something that's like part of a scholarly text of it. The line from Nightmare Alley to Pinocchio to here,

you can see the daddy issues. You can see the interest in investigating, like, you know, post-war or simultaneous war implications, like all that stuff is kind of there in a way that is interesting, and this just feels like, to me, between the three of those, like kind of the relative dud at the end of the line.

But there's an arc there that I can see what he's driven by and see what he's interested in. And maybe that arc has closed, and now we're on to something new and something interesting in a way that, like, at a certain point,

time, Pacific Rim felt like a huge departure. And that, like, that movie is like as good as that kind of movie as you can make. See, to me, that was like his attempt and success, like a general crowd-pleasing blockbusters. It was like a summer movie and there's big robots and monsters and he's having fun. And it was effective.

They didn't have the weight of expectation and artistry that comes to the Frankenstein. Just give me five minutes to talk about the Frankenstein movie, okay? You go, girl. So there have been so many of these kinds of movies over the years. And even right now, there is an animated film that I've not seen that is in theaters called Stitchhead, which is just a riff on the Frankenstein. story because it's Halloween time. Yeah. In March, Maggie Jellenhall's movie, The Bride, comes out.

Christian Bale is playing the monster. Yep. Jesse Buckley, moments before grabbing her first Academy Award will be appearing as the bride. I think the best Frankenstein movies is pretty consistently, usually a boring list. Because the original whale film and then his follow-up, The Bride of Frankenstein, are often cited as, like, the best and the most important and are taught in film schools the world over and still work if you show them to a seven-year-old. old. They're still effective. They're still scary. They still have this incredible sense of atmosphere that is undeniable. And then Hammer Films from England. The best one, I think, is the Curse of Frankenstein. New Warner Brothers Archive 4K out there. You can check it out?

Good job. Congratulations. Flesh for Frankenstein. Paul Morrissey's adaptation. I know Rob's seen it. He's a fan. It's really good. It's sort of a double Frankenstein story, a man and a woman, or simultaneously revived. This movie could have used a little more flesh for Frankenstein. You have to let the monster and Victor be depraved. The best way Amanda to harness

the lightning is to let the freak flag fly. You've got to really raise it up there and let these guys be weirder and weirdly enough for a Giro movie. You know what I was thinking about during this movie yesterday?

Do you remember there was sort of a frankly disrespectful meme format about five to ten years ago when someone would die a notable person would die. everyone would tweet like so-and-so taught me how to be weird. And this is sort of like Frankenstein taught me how to be weird, the movie.

Yeah. I just, you know, and there we go. I also just scrolled down on your list and there's an X-Files episode on here. So I'm going to need to get to that. It's a great episode. That's okay. Let's just, let's keep it moving. Two quick ones.

Depraved is Larry Fessenden's reimagining of this where a U.S. soldier who dies is revived. This is a very clever take on it. I did watch Mary Shelley's Frankenstein this morning, the Kenneth Brana adaptation with Robert De Niro as the monster. A fascinating piece of movie history because the script that Frank Darabant wrote for that before he went on to make the Shawshank Redemption is considered one of the great movie scripts

and one of the great adaptations in movie history, and Kenneth Brana kind of fucked it. And Guillermo Duthoro himself said, I read that script and that made me want to make Frank's movie, his vision for the movie. The version that we got is like way operatic. and crazy, and Brana is, like, shirtless through half of it and is, like, really showing off those abs. Not a successful movie. Interesting movie. The list of movies that Kenneth Brana kind of fucked is...

Listen. This is, like, right during the Emma Thompson, Helen Bottom Carter of it all. It's just, it's not what you want. Helen Bottom Carter featured prominently in Frankenstein. Can't imagine why. Okay. To me, Frankenstein is better for the inspired by movies. So very quickly a list. Edward Scissor Haynes is Frank. It's Frankenstein. The Spirit of the Beehive, the great Spanish film, is all about young kids seeing Frankenstein and then being changed forever. Robocop is Frankenstein. The Rocky Horror Picture Show is Frankenstein.

Phantom of the Paradise, the Palma's movie, Frankenstein, Reanimator, one of the greatest horror movies ever, Frankenstein. Poor things just came out recently. Frankenstein. Gods and Monsters, the biopic about James Whale. Frankenstein. Gothic, the Ken Russell movie about a bunch of horror writers getting together and scaring each other. Frankenstein.

The X-Files. The post-modern Prometheus One of the best episodes of the X-Files, I think. It's a legendary episode. Black and white episode. Super funny. Features tons of riffs from the whale movie. Yes, really good.

I mean, it's like, what if there were a version of Frankenstein that were obsessed with Cher? And could you save him by taking him to see Cher live? That's the textual plot of the episode. I appreciate that. Frankenstein is also ripe for comedy.

Young Frankenstein, the Mel Brooks movie, one of the funniest movies ever made. Frankenstein, but okay. Frankenstein, thank you. Frankenhiker, have you seen that to make? Amanda? No, but you have talked about it many times. It's about a prostitute who is killed in a lawnmower accident and then revived. Why are you talking about this so many times?

It's an interesting film. Weird science, also kind of in the Frankenhooker zone. Abed and Costello meet Frankenstein. Knox and I have seen this. Oh, great. Yeah, because they were showing it in like an academy museum. Was he scared of the morning? No, he was laughing. He picked up on the funniest.

It's good. It's funny. I think it was last year, so it was before he had learned that things were scary. Yes, we'll do that now, too. But, no, loved it. It was great. And Tim Burton, again, Frankenweeney is a very overt riff on this. Frankenstein is forever.

This Frankenstein, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. So let's talk about Die My Love, which is, is it a movie about monsters? Amanda, I ask you. Well, it's a movie about the process of creation and creating a life. Undoubtedly. Absolutely true. We have inadvertently thematically nailed this episode.

So this is the new film from Lynn Ramsey. It stars Jennifer Lauren. Robert Pattinson, Lakeith Stanfield, Nick Nolte, Sissy, SpaceX. Perhaps you've heard of those actors. It is about a young couple who moved from New York to Montana. I guess they're in search of a quieter life. They are about to be parents. Are they parents already when they arrive?

Flickering across the spectrum, I think. She might be pregnant, but, you know, things are not really communicated. They're literal, but plot details are sparse. Yes, this is not a traditional literal narrative film. It is very much a film about experience. And in this film, we see the relationship between this couple. They have a child. And then everything that unfurls from there.

So I will start with you, Amanda. What did you think of dying my love? I think as we near the end of the year that this is one of my favorite movies of the year. It is catered directly to me. In fact, I saw a woman outside of a different screening. Jack and I ran into each other after I saw Die My Love. and he was there for something else and someone overheard,

hey, I just heard you saw a die my love and what'd you think? And I said, I loved it, but I am also 11 months postpartum at this moment. Hilariously, I also went on a date with my husband. So we were sitting there

watching this couple in a very serious, similar and serious phase of life go through these experiences. And I have a pretty broad relationship with like mom culture, not just mom movies, but mom books and mom.

Mom email. Yeah, just like, mommy emails, mama. Can I just tell you? Yeah. Hang in there, mom. But not even just the like you got this mama bullshit. But like there have been a lot of novels and like quote unquote attempts at like high art to talk about what it is to be a mother. And I seldom connect.

That's probably a me thing. I'm not a joiner. But I just they don't. well they they speak to someone else's experience is not to mine and for everything that is like similar about a large percentage of this world population everybody has a different experience i this spoke to me this is about it is about the weird and terrifying experience of postpartum it is about depression it is about postpartum depression it's like you know it is the thing separate and apart and I think if you've experienced one, you'll relate to some of it.

If you've experienced both, you'll relate to it more. But I found the vignettes and the presentation of this phase of life and, like, new life, essentially, to be just so accurate of all of the emotions and just wildly, weird dissociative isolating feelings that go on in this moment

I found it like very funny both my husband and I were like laughing a lot and like shout out to him for going

and being like yeah that was good because Robert Pattinson is portrayed just like a really you know he's basically not there

and that's part of the thing and I think he does a great job in it but so I thought it was like I

I'll stop talking did you guys like it I'll let you go Rob I spent most of this movie wanting to throw up and I loved it loved every second of it I mean it's like it is very my shit in that experiential

like impressionistic kind of way and I think it gets it something like it's so weird that this and if I had legs I'd kick you are coming out so close together because they're both kind of reaching for something similar both really effectively but it gets into this like very primal thing that there's a part of all of us

that is hang in the wallpaper and bake in the cake and trying to participate in society and then there is the voice at the back of your head that just is telling you to run into the woods and never look back. And my understanding, again, very secondhand is that postpartum mothers

may be experienced that more acutely than basically anyone else. Yeah. And so like turning that into this very visceral feeling over the course of this movie is just overwhelmingly effective. Yeah. I think it's a pretty great movie.

It's very much in the tradition of all Lynn Randall. these movies, which are about these experiences of, like, profound alienation and feeling completely disconnected and unable to really, like, be seen and understood, right? Jennifer Lawrence's character in this movie is experiencing something that millions of mothers experience, but that feeling is like, why can't anyone understand how I feel right now? Right. And why won't they accept how I feel as being normal?

Right. And that is a really hard thing to translate into a film. And it's really interesting that, you know, you said the Mary Bronson's movie, This is even in one battle after another. The perfidy Beverly Hills character expresses this. And there have been a lot of movies about the challenges of motherhood. What was the Amy Adams film that we talked about on the show? Nightbitch, right?

Impossible to watch this and not think about Nightbich. I know, which is like... So funny, I did not think about Nightbitch once. Even though you guys had a great episode. I appreciate that. And I did think that Nightbitch portrayed some of the difficulties of having a toddler. Sure, it did. Like, I've been there and I see it sort of way.

That movie was more about... a certain vision of parenting maybe than... Because I don't see this movie as entirely about motherhood. I feel like it's much more about the female psychology. Like the expressions of it, because she does spend time mothering her child in the film. But I wouldn't say that that is like the thrust. It's much more about the ways in which she is seeking,

relief from her experiences. And the movie very complicatedly explores what is like a desire dream, what is a nightmare, and then what is the practical reality of what is happening to me? And it's not really too worried about you understanding which is which in any given time in the film. Which I think the implication is that she also doesn't totally know.

I mean, I think that it communicates a very specific feeling postpartum, which is that you are like physically and emotionally tied to this other thing that was, was you and that you did create. I mean, it is about like the consequences of creation. And now it exists. It's like when your baby looks to you and says, you are the monster. But now it exists outside of you.

But so there's like there are still physical, like biological and emotional connections. Yeah. That are. And things that are messing with your head and your body that are like, of you, but are also completely separate and sort of random and come from nowhere. And so one minute you can be like really happy and then you are very angry and then you're very stressed out. And then and you like love this baby, but also like you feel like you're going to throw up because you don't know what to do about it. And like it really like is dissociative.

That's the only way that I can describe the experience. And it feels like it is coming from from somewhere else, like the call is not coming from inside the house, even though it is. And I thought that this, the disconnected style of this movie and also like the very feral physical performances, like really communicate that kind of person who's lost not just in her body, but in the world. Yes. And, and how much of it is animalistic. Like it really is, it's so fucked up.

The whole experience is so. This is the thing. I mean, I guess it's like amazing or whatever. Like, Mama, look what you did. But like also, I know, but it is, it's just, it is really, you feel like you're in a nature documentary. It's not a miracle, you're a miracle. It feels so, it's, it is really, really bizarre.

So I loved it. I found myself a little disappointed when it got more literal. Yeah. And I mean, this is a person with like serious postpartum depression, which is real and also which I had. So, you know, like, it happens to many people. And there's no shame around it and also getting help is really good. But I found that once the character, like, is hospitalized and they pin down, like,

this is what's going on here. And this is, it's less a statement of fact and more like something to be solved. Yeah. Which I guess, like, is, that's what we want in life, you know? And, like, that's what's good for the character. And I guess is maybe the own. story arc that's possible, you know? And I guess it's a movie, so it has to have a story.

But it does it? I think that's what... I mean, I don't think so. Yeah, I struggled with that a little bit, too, just because I feel like it breaks the spell of the movie a little bit. Like, it does ground it in a way that isn't just like uncomfortable, but I feel like it's just kind of spinning its wheels until we can get back to the experiential bits.

I get why it happens logically. Like, I'm sure there are some audiences who would just watch this and think, like, why aren't you checking this woman in somewhere? Right. And I think the movie actually does a good job of that through the lens of Robert Pattinson's character where, yeah, that guy is, like, feckless and absent and interesting in a way that some of the other analogs and some of these other movies about parenthood, the husbands are not. So, like, there's something there.

And there are scenes genuinely where it's like, my wife just ran headfirst through a glass door. Like, what am I supposed to do in a way that is understandable? And yet, I just don't want to see the hospital sequence. I just want to stay with Jennifer Lawrence because, like, everything she has done. doing in this movie is fucking electric. Yeah, I definitely want to talk about her and what she brings to this movie. The thing that you're saying, which is like this movie's attempt to kind of wrangle itself into a narrative film is a real challenge.

There is, we were talking about Frankenstein, there's another 19th century piece of literature that this reminded me of, the yellow wallpaper. I'm sure you read it. That is also very much about kind of like female alienation, loneliness, and mania. The bell jar is about this. Like, there's other, and it's hard to make those stories cinematic because they're taking place in someone's mind. Right.

And this movie, I think, probably gets about as close as you possibly can because Lynn Ramsey creates these series of surrealist images of what may or may not be happening inside of this person's head, which is largely effective. We don't know, like, our empathy is with Lawrence, but she's also doing things that we're just like, why did you do that? Yeah.

And it makes the movie like, it's not on a track. It's an experience, and it's not, if you sit down and if people listen to this show and they're like, oh, Jennifer Lawrence, Robert Pattinson movie, it's like reset your expectations from what you're going to witness. And I think if you're a mother or a parent or child who has some empathy for this experience, you'll understand it a little bit better. But it is an audacious piece of filmmaking. The story is that Martin Scorsese read this book in a book club. and he thought Jennifer Lawrence should play this woman

which is an interesting thing to think. Isn't she also in the book club? I don't think so. Oh, she's not? I don't think so. I thought that they were

in the book club together. I think she was contacted by him and said, he said, I just read this book and I think you should, you should do this and her production company

optioned the book. And I'm just going to, I gave away some of this when we talked about no hard feelings a couple years ago, but I'm not done a 180 on a performer so dramatically, like probably in my life.

In 2015, 14, 13, when she was winning Academy Awards and was the toast of Hollywood, I was very vocally, like, this girl is a bumpkin, this performance style is no good. Yeah. This is not interesting to me at all. This is the most, like, affected, like, older men, like putting a 22-year-old in a position and, like, not protecting her and letting her just be, like, frivolous and weird.

I was pretty mean-spirited about it. I don't feel good about that. But I do think that she has transformed herself into an amazing and fearless actor. And she takes parts now. We talked about this on the Stone last week on the show. She too is now like,

I made The Hunger Games. Like, I'm good. It's time to try something that is significantly more audacious and bold. And she's really great in this movie. And I did not know this until I listened to her

on the New York Times interview podcast that she was pregnant while she made this film. Unbelievable. Which is quite crazy. I could tell. But that's only because I mean,

because she is like extremely naked. And it was more about the breastfeeding scene where I was just kind of like, what's going on here and how is this physically possible? And then I was like, oh, that must be. But she, I mean, she's just like, she is quite literally tits out,

but not in a sexual way. No. In a this is, like, my body is leaking sort of way. And I loved it. She's, it's, it's, there was an Emma Stone quote in the New Yorker piece that I think the Martin Scorsese anecdote comes from. And it's like there's a old theater and adage,

if an actor is on stage with a cat, who are you going to watch the actor or the cat? The audience would watch The Cats, Don't explain because it's going to respond genuinely in the moment while the actors are still acting. It's that quality. Jen's the cat. I think, I mean, you know, Emma Stone is very good

at giving quotes about the nature of acting and other things. But I was like, that is true. She just turns on or like turns off her Jennifer Lawrence and is in the moment of wherever she is. in a way that is astounding. If you listen to her talk on this, well, first of all, Jen's The Cat

certainly recalls Bill Simmons' Paul George as a cat. A legendary movie of a podcasting history. Paul George and Jennifer Lawrence to 34-year-olds who are transforming their identity every day. Works Paul George. She's in the garage. She's a lot in common. It's a great moment. You don't know where to go from there.

Pick me up. Where am I supposed to go? How about this? I'm going to go from cat to dog. A dog plays a very prominent part of this movie. I will say there is a perspective shot moment in which it is not exactly clear who Jennifer Lawrence is pointing a gun at and the physical discomfort in my theater

at the prospect that she could be pointing at this dog I think taps into some of the power of this movie. Like there is a very feral place that this movie takes you to. There is a place that is kind of like not judgmental of Jennifer Lawrence's character but is making you actively question everything about her. It's completely.

And it's like, I don't even know that she's, like, losing her grip so much as her grip on, like, the person that she thinks she's supposed to be. And so it's like, it's this very fine line. It's like the whole movie's on that razor's edge of challenging you to stay there with it. And it's so good at keeping you there to the point that if you played, hey, Mickey, for me in this room right now, I might have a nervous breakdown. So it's like, there's just like a Pavlovian thing that happens with this movie that is just incredible. Some very good needle drops in this film. Yeah. him showing up with the dog

is really, really... I like this husband character in the recent history of unhelpful husbands and absent husbands, which if I had legs, I'd kick you also does very well. We never talked about the reveal

of who that husband does also in that movie, which is quite good. I don't remember it if anybody hasn't seen that movie. He's doing less. Like, Jackson, in some ways, is absent and in some ways is trying, and I don't think it's very good at it. No, I mean, he never show up

with a surprise dog. is just a, like, a free marriage advice from me to you. But some of it is that he can't get in to help her either, right? And so he is presented not as, you know, an outdated father or someone who is, like, checked out. But that there is, like, like, a barrier between what's going on with her and what's going on with everyone else. And though he would like to help, he just, like, can't. He has no idea how to act. how to make her feel better.

Yeah, it's tricky, right? Because the film also, I don't know if you could call the character an unreliable narrator, but we don't actually know what's happening. So, like, in her mind, she's imagining that maybe he's being unfaithful, but we don't know if that's just a manifestation of her feelings of doubt and, like, low self-esteem, or is it actually something that's really happening in the text of the story? And the movie resists, I think, that, like, the neatness, you know? Because it's a time in your life when nothing is neat, right?

Every day you're like, fuck. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. It also doesn't matter. Like, if her decision-making and actions are being driven by that fear, then the fear is real. Right? Like, that's the reality of her situation. It's a very interesting, accomplished movie. I think it's also pretty smart about who your parents are and, like, what's going on with them.

Yeah. You know, Nick Nolte and Sissy SpaceX and them as, like, manifestations of their sons, foibles, and then what you're passing down to your children is something I think about all the time. It is like a constant obsession of mine and me thinking about what my parents have given me and how I'm passing it on to another person. That's your Frankenstein coming out. Well, you know, I'm trying to not literalize it.

I'm not trying to be the monster. What do you think you're passing to this podcast? Like, this is your baby too. That's true. Hopefully, thoughtful takes. Okay. A dollop of sincerity. Some stern authority at times.

I mean, no doubt. A talking to. You'll tell a young Jennifer Lawrence. That's not what you should be doing. Discipline. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, this is a really interesting film. So this film was picked up at the Cannes Film Festival for quite a large sum by Movie.

I saw the most recent trailer for this movie is pitched as from the studio that brought you the substance. Which feels like we're not the best way to sell the movie because it's not entirely in the same register, but it does have some thematic cores that are similar. And they're releasing this movie wide. We're talking about it now in detail because it's going in like 2,800 theaters. That's pretty bold. for what I would call basically an experimental film starring two of the biggest movie stars on Earth.

And I don't know, I don't think a movie like this is going to make a lot of money, but that doesn't really matter. Not concerned with it. Ultimately, like the, I think the appeal of it being that wide is Jennifer Lawrence is giving not just one of the best performances of her career, but of this year full stop. Like, this is an... A thousand percent.

This is an arresting display that I think will catch you and catch you off guard in so many ways. And, like, if you could say one, if I would say one negative thing about this movie, it's that it is kind of the one note, right? Like, we're in this state of chaos perpetually, but everything that she's doing is so surprising and keeps you on the edge of your seat to the point, like, I don't even care if that's the one note.

Like, just keep giving it to me over and over, and I will live in this place because she's demanding that I pay full attention to every movement of her body. Yeah. I mean, this is a Lynn Ramsey film about postpartum depression shot in a impressionistic style. You know, it's like, it is true that the people who go to the movie theater because Catnus Everdeen and what's his name, this is like our fifth twilight reference of this podcast. Edward. Yeah.

Edward Cullen? Is that number one on the big countdown? Is it going to be one of the Twiland? Were those this century? I guess they were. It got to be. Certainly were for sure. Yeah.

You just spoiled Saturday's live show. How dare you? That'd be so awesome. It's a new moon, right? Twilight new moons. I was going to say Breaking Dawn when the, when Dakota Fanning shows up is one of the Voltus the Voltaire, and then that baby. Renesme. Renzme. Yeah, never forget.

One of the great achievements. Was Renzme in Die My Love? I forget. Who played the baby? Could have been. I think it was Renzme. Let's do Best Actress quickly. Since we were talking Best Supporting Actress, or Supporting Actor, I should say. So, Jesse Buckley is currently leading the Heisman race. Another mom. Another mom. Renata Renzvi in Sentimental Value. Another story about your parents fucking you up. Rose Byrne, if I had legs, I'd kick you.

Wonderful. Cynthia Revo in Wicked for Good. She is, of course, mother. And Amanda Cypred in the Testament of Anley, also Mother. Plus you've got Chase Infinity. Plus you've got Emma Stone. Whatever. We won't get into spoilers.

Okay. And I guess you've got Kate Hudson in Song Song Blue movie I haven't seen and Sydney Sweeney and Christy. Everyone's trying for Kate Hudson. I think that'll be like a very nice Golden Globes red card. bit, you know? She will be nominated for in musical or comedy, for sure. And maybe they'll let her perform and I think that's fine.

You think Jennifer Lawrence is getting in for this movie? I don't, and I wish she were. No. I think that Roseburn and Jesse Buckley are going to, like, lead the mom contingent. And I would pick this over Emma Stone in Bagonia, but I don't think voters will. This is heartbreaking to hear it. small. It didn't have a great reception it can, even though it was, you know, picked up.

And I do think it's the best performance of her career definitely since mother. And I'm really excited once all the mommy movies come out for us to have moms versus dads. I mean, this episode was it a little bit. And it

is, I just... Who do you feel like is winning? I just think men need to get hobbies, you know, because... I have an extraordinary hobby. Is it that one of the... It's like, you guys actually, you can't create life. And so then you just, you know, you make aliens and, like, create psychological dramas for yourself.

And it's like not that guy. What's wrong with that? There are other things that are way more complicated than like, oh, did I do a good thing by making this monster? Well, my dad love me now? Like, grow up. You won 15 minutes in this movie of Robert Pattinson like playing pickleball? That would have solved it. Everything's fixed.

How do we know that he's not? You know, they've got a lot of land. He's off camera a lot. It's so funny because before I had a child, I did have a hobby. It was called drinking, and I drank all the time. And I don't really drink that much anymore. So, you know, I've replaced one hobby with life. That's beautiful.

That's what it's all about. Truly. And you're holding it together so well, you know? What do you mean? I feel that I gave a Sterling performance today in the active movie podcasting. Hey, Rob Mahoney, you're the man. Where can we find you? You can find me on the Ringer NBA show every week.

You can find me on the Prestige TV podcast most weeks, including we got Pluribus coming up. There's a lot happening. I heard this is good. What is Pluribus? A show that according to Joanna Robinson is one of the best pilot she's ever seen, that I still need to watch. Do you know the logline? I don't. It's created a mystery type show.

I'm unconsciously trying to avoid. Vince Gilligan's new show starring Ray Seahorn from Better Call Saul. That's a better pitch. Yes. Okay. I'm going to watch the Emmett Thompson detective series instead. Oh, that's, I mean, I also seems very worth your time. Okay.

Well, thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Next week, CR and I are going to the Badlands, where we're going to be talking about Predator. The Predator movies, whatever's going on in England with him. Is Chris going to be on your back cut in half like an android? That is how I think of us all the time. Thank you guys. We'll see you soon.