The Big Picture - ‘Hamilton’ Is a Movie. Or Is It? Plus: Remembering Ennio Morricone.

Episode Date: July 7, 2020

Sean and Amanda discuss the life and career of the legendary film composer Ennio Morricone, who died on Sunday at 91 (1:24). Then they discuss the new additions to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and what it means for the Oscars (0:00). And finally, Lin-Manuel Miranda’s Broadway musical phenomenon finally began streaming this weekend on Disney+. It's a composite of three June 2016 performances, so how does it work as a movie experience? And how has ‘Hamilton’ aged since it premiered in 2015? Sean and Amanda are joined by Juliet Litman to discuss the history of the show, what it’s like to see it at home, and the state of plays in 2020 (25:55). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Juliet Litman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My name is Alexander Hamilton, and there's a million things I haven't done, but just you wait, just you wait. When he was ten, his father split, full of it, dead. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Hamilton. Way back in February, it was announced that a filmed 2016 performance of Lin-Manuel Miranda's cultural phenomenon, Hamilton, would be released theatrically on October 15, 2021, and eventually find its way to Disney+, all for the tidy sum of $75 million. Then COVID-19 struck, and that release was moved up 15 months, arriving in homes on Disney Plus in time for the July 4th weekend. Today we'll be joined by the biggest Hamilton fan I've ever met, The Ringer's Juliette Lipman, to talk with Amanda and I about this experience.

We're visiting the iconic stage musical in the confines of our homes. But Amanda, first, let's talk a little bit of news on the show. Some sad news to start. We lost one of the greats, one of the greatest contributors to the history of film, my favorite film composer ever, Ennio Morricone, who died over the weekend at 91 years old. I was bummed deeply by this news, despite the fact that he was a man in his 90s. What was your reaction? I assume you were not awake like I was at one o'clock in the morning when this came across the transom. No, I missed it. So I woke up to the

obituaries, which were, you know, represented a full career and life. And I spent a lot of time just reflecting on how awesome it would have been to live in a palazzo in Rome and just get to write movies for movies. I like just respect, you know, and obviously, condolences to his family and his friends. And it's very sad, but it did seem like this was a person who made the most of his life. And I mean, career-wise, just extraordinary. You can't do it any bigger than him. I think you could quibble with whether he's greater than Bernard Herrmann or Elmer Bernstein or John Williams or Hans Zimmer or Alfred Newman or all of the great composers over the last 120 years or so of cinema. But man, he has worked with almost everybody. He had a 50, 60, almost 70-year career writing music for films. Here's just a

short list of all of the films that he worked on or the directors he collaborated with. Of course, Sergio Leone is the man with no name trilogy, which is probably the music for which he is best known and is completely iconic and has been parodied to the point of absurdity that it's a part of the musical lexicon, I think, for anybodyona's once upon a time in the West, which is my favorite thing he's ever done. And, uh, once upon a time in America, he worked on the battle of Algiers. He worked on Terrence Malick's days of heaven. He worked on John Carpenter's, the thing Brian De Palma's, the untouchables Quentin Tarantino's, the hateful eight. He worked with his countrymen like, uh, Bertolucci and, and Sergio Solima and Sergio Corbucci and Dario Argento and so many incredible filmmakers, William Friedkin, Warren Beatty, Guillaume Pontecorvo, George Miller, Mike Nichols, Oliver Stone, Adrian Lyne. I mean, who really didn't this person work with? And even if Morricone was not always working on the signature films by those filmmakers, you could see that filmmakers who acquired a modicum of

clout over their careers turned to him. I thought I was thinking of Carpenter in this case, because Carpenter writes his own music for a lot of his movies. But when he was making The Thing, which was a remake of a Howard Hawks movie from the 1950s, he didn't want to do it himself. He wanted the master, Il Maestro, to come in and do basically his. I mean, the score for The Thing is basically Morricone doing an imitation of a John Carpenter score, but just better. And that's just, that's an amazing flex. And I think when people think of Morricone, you know, they think of the ecstasy of gold or they think of the good, the bad and the ugly theme. Exactly.

Yes. And those are his signature compositions. But he really could do a lot of different kinds of styles. If you listen to the work that he did for The Mission or for the Malick movie that I mentioned, these are much more sort of like elegant, orchestral, beautiful, almost like agrarian sounds that he was able to put people on a pedestal on this show frequently, and we're always celebrating top fives and halls of fame. But people like Morricone, that's a once in a medium's history kind of a figure. Yeah, and he occupies a space in film history where, especially for people of a slightly younger generation, a.k.a. you and me, coming to to films so much of like the invention and the creation of how movies sound um has been done by him but it's already done and you just kind of it's like in the firmament and you know that the the cue that i just started very badly singing is like i was trying to think is there a single more famous music cue from a movie and not just famous because like you could obviously make an

argument for you know the star wars score but um a cue that like exists wholly separate from the movie itself that just like the music alone evokes a specific set of images and a place and has a life because like if you start singing the darth vader, most people know what it is, but you're thinking of Darth Vader, right? That's such a good point. But that cue lives completely on its own. But so it's so interesting when you come to movies, and you noted in our outline that Quentin Tarantino was a big fan and did use a lot of his scores in later movies in the 90s and the 2000s. So I think probably I came to some of his work through people repurposing the scores later in life. And it just feels like this is how the world always was. But no, like one person just invented

all of this out of his mind. It's extraordinary. It's such a great point. You know, I think if you think of the most iconic film scores of all time you know you mentioned star wars and john williams i think john williams's jaws score probably comes to mind you know maybe bernard herman's work with hitchcock especially psycho but you're right those sounds the e e e and psycho or the you know dun and jaws all of that stuff that stuff is inextricable like you say from, from the movies. Leone's stuff is bigger. It exists outside of the movies. And sure, if you're a fan of Eastwood and The Man With No Name, you would think of that character when you hear some of those cues, but they've gotten so contorted in Mel Brooks movies and Abrams, Zucker Abrams movies, and they've been parodied and

they've been picked over and they've been like mad magazine into the musical lexicon in such a way that they're just music. You can just listen to them. I mean, I've been obviously listening to them all morning. They're just deeply enjoyable compositions. They're not as kind of fusty as you might imagine, but they are, you know, the best of them are usually very operatic. They tend to focus on lone instruments or duos and the kind of interplay between them. They become like signatures for characters a lot of times when you see like the ones I mentioned Once Upon a Time in the West, which is, you know, occasionally my favorite movie ever made. It kind of rises and falls over time. One of the most like significant in theater experiences I've ever had. And the Charles Bronson character in that movie, Harmonica, constantly plays the

Harmonica. And last night on Twitter, I shared the sort of the conclusion, the final duel in that movie, which explains where the Harmonica comes from. And it's just this beautiful connectivity between the filmmaker, the screenwriter, the composer, all of their stories working together to make a beautiful series of images and sounds, which is like, that's what we're looking for in movies. We're just looking to be touched. We're looking to feel something ineffable. And I love Morricone for that. I mean, he just gives me that in a very, this is a very sincere segment, but I feel very strongly about what he did. A legend, a maestro, the maestro. The maestro. So, you know, if you're looking for his work, you could spend a long time on YouTube,

and I would encourage people to do that. Certainly a lot of his scores are available on Spotify for you to find, but not everything is there. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of movies. I mean, he worked on over 200 films. There are dozens of films from the 60s and 70s that, you know, the soundtracks have not been reproduced, but you should just go hunting for. The one that I spent a lot of time last night listening to was Two Mules for Sister Sarah, which is a post Man With No Name Clint Eastwood film starring Shirley McClane that is awesome just like a great listen so check that out if you can and all praise due to the legendary Ennio Morricone let's talk just a little bit about what's happening in movies there was one small thing

that came up that I wanted to mention to you and I think it puts some of the conversation we've been having about what's happening here in the states in sharp relief I read this morning that Ruben Ostlund the Swedish filmmaker who has been on the show before who directed the square and force majeure which was recently remade into downhill this year started shooting his new film then his new film is called triangle of sadness which is one of the greatest titles for a movie i've ever heard and frankly sums up me in my house every day i was gonna say i don't know what it is but i know i'm living in it so this is a new movie starring woody harrelson apparently it's set on a ship of some kind and woody harrelson plays looks like some sort of naval commander it's unclear to me i just was struck by the fact that I wish I lived in Sweden,

where you could start making a movie again, and where the COVID-19 numbers were not as terrifying as they are in the United States of America, and where the idea of film production, I mean, doesn't it feel like it seems years away? Yes, it does. I agree. Again, at some point, it's hard to have these conversations, especially when you start bringing in government responses and whatnot without veering into politics. But yes, I do wish that we were living in a country where circumstances were such, you know, where COVID were not on the rise and people were healthy and we weren't having to deal with all of these horrifying realities

of health and economics, let alone moviemaking that we do. I very much agree with you. Tenet coming July 31st. You ready? No, it's not July 31st. It got pushed back. Oh, August 12th. Yeah.

You know, I know it's not August 12th because that is the week I took for vacation. Thank you, Christopher Nolan. I see you. It's fine. I'll, I'll go see it. I, I it's fine, but yeah, August 12th in, in scare quotes that you can't see right now. You know, I was been reading a bit about Nolan as I make an attempt to, to wrap my head around his, his career and his work. And it struck me that he's turning 50 years old this year. Um, I think August actually is when he's turning 50 years old this year. I think August actually is when he's turning 50 years old. Is he a Leo? I believe August 2nd is his birthday, which technically makes him a Leo. Would you say he has, you know, this is a couple of Leos talking on a podcast.

Would you say he has signature qualities of the Leo? Absolutely. You and I also band chairs wherever we are in all circumstances. That was debunked. That was de-chaired. Incredible rumor that Anne Hathaway stoked by implying that Christopher Nolan on his film sets always wants people working and in action. And so there are no chairs on his sets. And then literally dozens of people came forward in the days after and said, I have sat in many chairs on Christopher Nolan's sets over the years. Different types of chairs. Now it's just going to be like, here are all the types of chairs that Christopher Nolan owns

in his various homes and, you know, on his sets and his offices. Yeah, sure. He has Leo qualities. He seems exacting and specific. And, you know, so much of Tenet has been about how Christopher Nolan really believes in the theater experience, which I said in that scare voice because it's so fraught. But, you know, a year ago before COVID, believing in the theater experience and having enough success and clout to insist that your movies be seen a certain way is, I mean, definitely Leo vibes, but also something

that I have some respect for. I, you know, I respect people who have a vision and who like to see that vision enacted just so. Is that vision about how everything is in the past and also the future and all your wives are dead? Is that the vision that you're describing? That's definitely true for me. So. Okay. God bless him. Tenet, August 12th. Doesn't, it doesn't feel right to me. I don't think it's going to happen. I could be wrong. There's been a lot of, a lot of, a lot of conversation about where's the best place for a movie like Tenet to live. We agree that it should be in movie theaters. I don't, I don't know. I don't know when movie theaters are going to be open. All right. I'm with you. Let's talk a little bit about the Oscars. The Oscars made some changes last week,

and they did this after we recorded, so we didn't get a chance to talk about it. But about five or six days ago, the Oscars added 819 new members. If you think back just 10 or 12 years ago, there were fewer than 5,000 members in the academy. And the academy has grown so radically over the last decade and in part pushed by the leadership over the last couple of years and the handful of presidents that have reigned in that time. And they've done so for one very specific reason, which is to make that body more diverse. And the Academy, more than any publicly debated group, is probably one of the whitest, oldest, and most male organizations that we had back in the,

I don't know, late 2000s and into the early 2010s. And now we see that they have surpassed this diversity goal that they've set for themselves. Of the new people who got in, 49% of those new members are international. 45% are women. 36% are identified as underrepresented by

ethnic or racial means. 68 countries are represented on the list. This is a pretty significant moment that the, I mean, it's really the culmination, I suppose, of the last five years of work that the, I mean, it's, it's really the, the, the culmination, I suppose, of the last five years of work that the Academy has been trying to do. But what do you make of the now 10,000 members of the Academy and the fact that it's not just the bunch of,

you know, 84 year old men who worked on a Vincent Minnelli film in the 1960s? You know, I'm pro everything that you just said I'm like great it is funny you know when they announced this they also announced some of the individual members who are invited and it's I mean it's just often like reading a list of all your faves and it's very it's some of the people you wrote here you know John David Washington Florence Pugh Brian Tyree Henry Lulu Wong Ari Astor um many of the actors from Parasite it It's like, great. Love all those people. Put them in charge of things. Goodbye me. You know?

So it's like, it's, I mean, it's hard to have anything but a positive reaction to that. And, you know, and I also do appreciate the Academy trying to do something and to recognize that the way that it has been

is not the way that it has to be. How those changes like actually ultimately take place or what results we get is a different conversation and one that is only seen over time. But I'm happy for all of these people who are in the academy. It's interesting. I mean, in the past when I have written about the academy, I've described them as a kind of secret cabal, specifically of older folks. And one thing that in the last three or four years

that the new roles that they've added here represent are a lot of young people. You know, Awkwafina and Zendaya and Florence Pugh, these are young performers, you know, and their resumes may not be as long as people who have been added in the past, but they have obviously made an impact and they have appeared in films

that have been recognized by the Academy. They have fan bases. They have a different point of view. And so there's something powerful here because what it does is it specifically gives them a voice. It gives them a voice, not necessarily at the board of governors, but it lets them vote. And that's really the thing that we're keeping an eye on here is what are the films that are celebrated? How does the Academy continue to reckon with how the world is changing? And also, frankly, in real time, reckon reckon with past sins which is something that Every organization in america has been thinking about and dealing with in the last six weeks eight weeks three months

Five years hundred years, you know There's this constant kind of reckoning with what the past represented and what the future can be and so You know Again at the risk of being sincere, like kudos to the Academy. They have done an amazing job at this. They probably have a lot more work to do. There's a lot that we don't know about what goes into this process and who gets added and why, but Brian Tyree Henry is voting for Oscars. Somehow I feel a little bit better,

right? Yeah, I agree. This is also a great lesson in when the Academy actually like gives us information on what they're doing, you get a positive result. So often, as you mentioned, it's shrouded in secrecy or they're like, hey, we're thinking about doing this, whether it's like the best popular Oscar or the diversity initiatives, which I think they announced the intention to pursue, but they have not outlined the specifics of that yet. So and also, you know, in more like in concept or not inconsequential, but kind of sillier things, they also just don't share the vote totals,

but look what happens Academy. When you share what you're doing with specifics, people are really psyched. Just, just a tip. Yeah. There's one, there's one interesting wrinkle to this year's announcement of the new roles that I wanted to talk about with you, which I think is interesting. And that is the addition of a new wing, essentially, to the Voting Academy. And that is the agents. Now, a lot of people who are, you know, kind of drive-by consumers of the Oscar content, people who don't pay as close attention to this as you and I do, might just think that the Academy is comprised of actors and directors and writers and producers and maybe some craftspeople and that's it.

But the Academy is full of a lot of people. It's, for a long time, executives and publicists and managers to some extent have had an opportunity to participate in this process. And they have their own branches, their own wings in some cases. This year, they added agents.

Agents have never been able to vote specifically as a part of the academy. And you seem a little dismayed by this news. I was going to make an inappropriate joke about agents being allowed to vote more generally. No, there's no voter suppression on the big picture, period. There's no voter suppression on the big picture. That's true.

We are for destroying gerrymandering. We are for fair and decent practices in all voting. We are true. And that's why I didn't make the inappropriate joke, even though I sort of did a drive-by. But what actual voting

is really important. And I just want to be clear that I endorse that. Okay. Agents in the Academy. Not my favorite of the announcements. I mean, it's specific, but you note here in the outline, and I think it's true,

is that agents often do have a lot to do with a movie actually happening. And that's important because we like it when movies happen. And we're sad when they don't, as the last three months of this podcast is evidence of. I think agents are often a lot of the reason that movies don't happen. And they wield a lot of power and they are really outside and there are exceptions to this. And I think like there are good agents, but I guess I can't believe I just not all agented. But I think that, I mean,

this is just getting really off the rails. But more often than not, the work that they're doing is not in service of a project, but it's in the service of a person on the project. And listen, advocating for yourself and having people who advocate for you is great in any context. Everyone deserves that advocacy. And so often it's only the people with a lot of resources who had that advocacy. So I don't want to diminish that, but I don't know. People watch Entourage for a reason.

Yeah, it just, it raises an interesting level. It raises an interesting point about what is the purpose of the voting body and who should be able to participate. And should it only be people who are materially involved in the producing of the work of art? Or should people who are, you know, who participate in the sort of the work of art? Or should people who participate in the machine of Hollywood, it kind of clarifies the Oscars in a lot of ways as what it is, which is an industry party and an industry event. It's not a critical body like the Golden Globes or the New York Film Critics Circle. Those are awards that are given by journalists. And even the Hollywood Foreign Press, to some extent, is a group of journalists. This is a for us, by us kind of convention. That's what the Oscars is. And agents, more than ever, in terms of packaging and driving big, big, big projects to the forefront, and even, frankly,

helping smaller filmmakers get attention and get seen they do they do play a pretty big role in the and not just the machinery of hollywood but the the sort of creative forward progress of careers which is important yeah and and that is important to the extent that kind of some of the roles are defining and and who does what on on these projects um does shift and i think if you're working on behalf of someone who wasn't going to get as much of attention or resources, or even be able to make a movie and then they did, and it was fantastic that you absolutely played a role in that.

But it, you know, agent is kind of a, maybe unfairly is kind of a dirty word. It is. And it carries with us a certain stigma. It does. It just raises some kind of fascinating

additional questions about you know if you if you work in public relations and you help narrativize a movie to the public you didn't make the movie but you maybe materially made people understand what the movie was so is that should you be able to say green book is your best picture of 2019 because you have participated in that? Maybe you should. It's ultimately not for us to say because we are not actually in the industry. There are a lot of awards that people like you and I get to hand out. You and I don't hand them out, but there is a lot of opportunity for the press and the observers and the critics to do things. And so it's a little bit difficult to

i don't know navigate marshall who should or should not vote but in fairness to the point you're making i basically had the exact same reaction when i saw the news i was like oh agents really i you know maybe it's the if you bring them inside the circle then it's it changes the conversation i don't really know. I don't know. I'm not in the Academy yet, so it's not up to me. We'll have to wait and see. I'm imagining now, I mean, April 25th or so is the Academy Awards of 2021. So we've got in the neighborhood of nine and a half months until we get to the Oscars, which is just mind bending to think about. And in that time, you're going to have 10,000 voting members already.

The Academy's voting site is hosting films. So if you are a member, you can go check out Never Rarely, Sometimes Always or Emma or a handful of the other films that have already been made available there. We'll see. Maybe with 10,000 people, they'll get more shit right. You think they will? I have no idea. I can't even. I mean, are they going to have it? Is April 25th? Who knows? Who knows? I like all the people we named and many of the other people who were inducted into the Academy this year. So congratulations to them. Okay. Well, next we're going to talk about a movie that will not be qualifying for any Oscars, but that is at least in movie form nonetheless. But first, let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor.

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That's masterclass.com slash big picture for 15% off Masterclass. Okay, we're back. And we've got the ringers, Juliette Littman with us. Juliette, what's up? Hello. Juliette, I'm going to provide listeners a lot of details about the history of hamilton but before

i start boring everybody just very quickly can you explain what this show means to you personally sure um in the summer of 2015 my parents saw the hamilton at the public and they're like, it's good. Some things repeat, repeat, but it's good. And, um, in the Heights is there's a song from in the Heights.

That's like on my top 10 list, most listened to every year on Spotify. It's called champagne. It's one of the final songs in act two. It's like the fourth to last song. Um, and I just like love the work and the ideas and the spirit of Lin-Manuel Miranda so much. I think he is earnest and interested in connections and ideas in the city of New York in a way that I really relate to having also grown up in Manhattan. And I just like find his work incredibly energizing. I really, really, really, really recommend the short musical he did for this American life back in

2009. I think also starring Anthony Ramos who plays, um, John Lawrence and Philip Hamilton. Um, and it's called 21 chump street. And I just think he's like so smart and the way that he views the world through his curious lens is really evocative and moving to me

and important to me. And so in September of 2015, I went on StubHub and bought tickets and I was just like, I need to be a part of Hamilton. Like I just need to be a part of it. And so I bought tickets, paid so much money. It was like way too much than I should have. And it was like a transformative experience about ideas and the way that you can engage with ideas. And I've never recovered from it. I've since seen Hamilton an additional four times in two other cities. I saw it three times in New York, once in LA, once in London, and I couldn't sleep on Friday night. So I started watching Hamilton on my iPad at 4 a.m. on July 3rd. And then I stopped because I was like, I'm not getting the best experience.

So I just watched the first 40 minutes. So what you've just explained to us is that you're insane, which is very, very, very generous of you. She has passions. She has passions. No, of course we all do. That's why you're here. It's because you have a passion for this.

Amanda and I have also saw this show on Broadway. For those of you who are not familiar with it, that probably means you're either dead or have been living in a bomb shelter for the last 10 years. But this is Corsal and Manuel Miranda's acclaimed Broadway musical adapted from Ron Chernow's acclaimed biography of the American founding father. This show essentially combines hip hop and R&B songwriting with the kind of classical great man tropes you find in a lot of Broadway shows. He uses the lyrics and phrasing and styles of the Notorious B.I.G. and Mobb Deep and A Tribe Called Quest and Beyonce, DMX. The songwriting here is unusual relative to the kinds of songs that you usually hear in a Broadway

musical, although it also features a lot of the same hallmarks that you'll hear in a Broadway musical, which is, I think, an interesting thing for us to talk about. Juliet, you mentioned your folks saw this at the Public in 15. It came to Broadway shortly thereafter. It's an amazing piece of theater. There are, of course, a number of interesting things to talk about here, like the casting choices that he made, the way that this show is celebrated. I mean, this is a show that has won 11 Tonys and a Pulitzer Prize and Miranda was awarded a MacArthur Genius Grant. I mean, in the realm of popular culture, is there a more celebrated and beloved thing than Hamilton? Amanda, let's wait to get to the criticism of Hamilton. In general, do you think that this is like,

is this an untouchable piece of culture in your mind? Well, untouchable is a loaded question. I think to pick up with what you were saying, which is that Hamilton is just like an extremely lauded and also an extremely popular piece of pop culture. But what's so singular about Hamilton and it's just like massive, massive reach and phenomenon of Hamilton is that it had not been available in like its full form, which is like a theater musical production to most people until this weekend, until it was available on Apple Plus, because as you mentioned, it was at the public and then it was a Broadway show.

Broadway is in New York. They're logistical as well as financial considerations, as Juliet alluded to. A lot of people came to Hamilton through the soundtrack, it seemed. I knew that Hamilton was a big deal when, I can't remember whether it was 2016 or 2017. But my mother, who lives in Atlanta, Georgia, and who has been a wonderful mother to me, but I cannot say that she is the most like pop culturally with it individual. It's she's spending her time on other things. And she asked if I would please get her the soundtrack of Hamilton on CD, because that's where my mother is, technologically speaking, and also the book that was released so that she could read about Hamilton and listen to the music and have some sense of what this major pop culture phenomenon

was. And that was when I was like, oh, this is really, really big. And we talk a lot about kind of the loss of the monoculture and shared experiences and Game of Thrones being the last thing that everybody else was really involved in. But like, and how hard it is to create sensations like that now in a sort of fragmented world. But Hamilton like was really everywhere, which is remarkable.

It also, I think, it appealed to the sensibilities of people who were eager to celebrate it. And that, I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean, it was an immensely covered piece of culture. There was a lot to read about it, a lot to unpack about it. There was famously, I think, 114 pieces on Slate.com about Hamilton from 2015 through 2019. That's a lot of influence from one single show. Juliette, you bought in in full, but was there ever a time when you felt like you were growing cynical around the cult that had grown around this show? I think only,

only recently I was kind of dreading it coming out. Um, because I just think the world in which we receive it and AOS got rid about this in the times, but the way the world in which we're receiving it this week is so vastly different from the whispers that were around in 2014 and 15. And then it's like final arrival on Broadway was like so exciting. And then it just like really skyrocketed from there, but it's just such a different world. And in so many ways,

like Hamilton, um, the kind of like the funny thing that then popped up that was perfectly timed with like probably the peak moment for Instagram was then all the celebrities going. So like when the San Antonio Spurs were in town, like who, like people laughing about who had to sit behind Kawhi Leonard. And then, you know, Lin-Manuel Miranda really famously missed, he was out sick the night that the Obamas went. So his, um, like one of his longtime collaborators who was the understudy for the original cast, his name is Javier Munoz. He also starred in, in the Heights. He performed for the Obamas and like at something like Lin-Manuel Miranda has talked about a lot. And it just became such a thing for celebrities to go to the show and then be photographed with the cast

afterwards. And it was like, who's benefiting more from this photo, the celebrity or for the cast? Like who is this cooler for? It's like very unclear. And that was a time when I think just the sheer act of casting all nearly all people of color and in all the principal roles for sure completely was such a bold statement of clarity that now feels, I think, a lot of the close readings of hamilton that came out in the beginning were so focused on lynn's reverence for hip-hop and his reverence for writing i mean a lot of people point to the truly miraculous line and um take a break that angelica sings that's um when she's focusing on the comma that he that he and addressing her, my dearest Angelica. And that feels wild for people, you know, for someone like me who like loves to read and works in media, thinks about words and writing and sentence structure is such a revelation to be in a musical. It feels so small in the broader context of how the entire nation is engaged in reevaluating American history. So while this musical may

have been early to that, it now feels like it's just in some ways didn't go far enough. And it's hard, I think, if you are really engaging with that work to feel, um, it's hard to sync that up with like the, the joy and jubilation and glee that I still feel I still personally derive from this musical. Yeah. I think we should get into some of the criticisms after we've talked about this as a movie, just because they're useful to unpack. And they're the sort of things that with time and with a massive amount of exposure become more clear.

But I agree. I mean, I specifically remember seeing the show, I want to say it was November of 2015. Does that sound right, Julia? Yeah. And I had a very, very fortunate experience. You guys have probably heard me talk about this personally, privately, but I had a couple of interesting seat mates. I went with my wife and we sat with Sting and Trudy Styler and Steven Spielberg and

Kate Capshaw. Incredible. And so that can give you a little bit of a sense. Yeah. So it was definitely, I think it was a holiday time. Um, uh, may I share my seating story? Absolutely. When I saw it in London, which was so amazing, the man who plays Hamilton for the original cast of the West End production is named Jamal Westman. And he is the hottest Hamilton. He's hot and tall and he's just phenomenal. And I was sitting directly next to the queen, queen Elizabeth's daughter, who is dramatized in the crown. Her name is Ann and it was her and her husband, Timothy and two bodyguards. And it was fucking crazy. Carry on. Amanda, did you sit next to any famous people at your production of Hamilton? Not at Hamilton, though.

If we're just sharing these stories, I did once sit right literally next to Meryl Streep at a production of Gypsy. And that was, let me tell you, even when Meryl is not on stage, she commands the room. But anyway, no, I just, you know what? I went to see Hamilton in January 2016. It was the week before I moved to Los Angeles for The Ringer. And it was kind of like my last grand New York thing that I did, obviously getting to go to Broadway. And as Juliette noted, it is very much a musical about New York as well. And so I have

this really sentimental memory of it, of a time in my life in New York. It's, I have a very emotional relationship to the show, not just because I thought it was such an incredible piece of work and so brilliantly conceived and wended together a lot of things that I'm really interested in, especially hip hop and American history, which are both meaningful to me, but because when the show ended and just as we prepared to stand for the standing ovation, but right before we did, Sting, who sat next to my wife, turned to my wife with tears in his eyes and said, that was extraordinary, wasn't it? And it took all of the power inside of me to not look at him and say, yes, Sting, it was. I did not directly address Sting, though I've always wanted to do that. But from Sting to the three of us on this podcast,

I think if you were there for the moment, there was something really, really powerful and meaningful. We've all lived in New York. We've all thought about this show quite a bit. But it has been a few years since it's been at the forefront. Obviously, it's traveled to other cities like London where you saw it. It came to the Pantages, I think, here in Los Angeles. It has been available to more people than it was in those first few years. But even still... It hit five national tours. It did cover a lot of cities.

And then it sat down in Chicago and San Francisco. And then for Hurricane Maria fundraiser Lynn reprised his role in Puerto Rico so they they did try to make it as accessible as possible but within the realm of um with the business of theater I think the vast majority of people in in in America and wherever Disney plus is available are seeing it though, for the first time as this movie, you know, the movie is directed like the stage, the stage show by Thomas Kael,

who some people may know from Fosse Verdon, great show last year in 2019. And this is edited together from three different performances in June of 2016. So just generally off the top as a movie experience, how did this translate for you, Juliet, knowing, you know, your commitment to the show and the level of detail that you understand about it? Um, Tommy directed, uh, Greece live on Fox a few years ago. And I think that is definitely the best live musical of the era. Um, like that was, there was like a lot of dynamism and motion to that. So I

had, um, high expectations going into it. And I think, um, one thing that's interesting to me is that every time you see a filmed recording of Les Mis, which is also famously on a rotating stage, they don't use the rotating stage. They usually just line up and they kind of they eliminate that element of it because i think it's really hard to recreate what a like lazy susan style stage does in the room when you're looking at it on screen and so as a result of maintaining that and trying to be i think as like match the fidelity of the musical there were so many cuts that in between cameras and in between performances presumably there's one really obvious like oh we switched to different

performance with um david digs his beard but that's neither here nor there um but i i think the adjusting to the the sort of the camera standing in as like the audience member instead of one specific point of view, which is, you know, what it's like to be in the audience was a real adjustment for me at first having just being so so like having romanticized my experiences of seeing the show in person for so many years that that I found sort of jarring at the beginning because I wanted to be able to take in the whole ensemble. But then I was just really like after a few minutes kind of like dropped that and I think a lot of people and by a lot I mean me and Rembert Brown have discussed that like when by the time you get to my shot which is like the fourth song and one of the

most famous you're kind of acclimated to Hamilton you kind of like understand what this is and I felt that was true with the movie as well, that after I kind of dropped my preconceived notions of what it's like to take it in as like a stage spectacle, by the time, like at the end of my shot, I was like more adjusted to it. Amanda, what did you make of it? This is a long, long film and a long production. Yes, I have seen the production. I also understand how both plays and musicals work. So I should not have been surprised when I opened Apple TV, which I downloaded for this purpose, like many people in America, apparently. I'm sorry, not Apple TV, my Disney Plus on my Apple TV. No free ads, but I guess that was an ad. I noticed that the runtime was two hours and 40 minutes. And I do understand

that that's how plays work and was also not the most excited about the two hours and 40 minutes. And I do understand that that's how plays work and was also not the most excited about the two hours and 40 minutes. But, you know, I soldiered through. I thought Juliet said it far better than I ever could that I did find kind of matching up the obvious camera style and the actual stage production to be a little hard to wrap my head around at first. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was, and this is pretty obvious, but Hamilton is quite sprawling, not just because it's two hours and 40 minutes,

but because there are a lot of characters and actors are playing different characters in different parts. And so you have to follow a lot. And I often found that the emphasis on who you're supposed to follow and who you're supposed to be paying attention to, character for me wasn't always as clear because perhaps my brain was using like a film language and the Hamilton itself is still using theater language to communicate that and like you know maybe things like where you're standing on stage aren't quite as obvious

but I just go back to the fact that I do think that it's extraordinary that so many people get to see this. And we were lucky enough to see it on stage, but it costs a tremendous amount of money. And logistically, it was just very hard for as many people who are as interested in Hamilton to be able to see it. And now they can, and now we can have larger conversations that we're going to have about the way that it views history and the way that it presents musical theater. So I can't knock it. I think it's wonderful

that people are able to see this. As I texted to my mother, how lucky we are to be alive right now to watch Hamilton every single day. Sorry, I had to. No, we've talked a lot about the cost of movies at home over the last few months and whether you know if tenant were to ever come to to pvod would you pay 99.99 to watch it

with your friends on opening night or something like that you can watch hamilton 30 consecutive days for 5.99 and in, you can watch every Disney classic, all of the Mandalorian, every Star Wars film ever made, the entire MCU. Like, this is also not an ad for Disney+, but it is fascinating what this means for just the sort of consumer power that people have right now. I mean, $5.99 obviously is an ongoing commitment

that you can make to the service. And not everybody has that kind of spare change to spend on something like this. But if you care about Hamilton, it's pretty much worth it. I mean, if you were to go to the stage show, you were spending hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars just to get tickets, if you could even get access to tickets. So it strikes me as an extraordinary deal. And for me personally, watching the production, I'm never really a huge fan of live musical stage production. I thought that this was certainly the highestlights and there's one camera beyond the orchestra and maybe there's a camera in the balcony and that's it and they're rarely moving and so if you do get a chance to see productions like this and i haven't seen les mis actually so it's interesting you bring that up juliet but for the most part when you see these they're so static and even though this was a

little bit frantic and i agree with you amanda that you're where your attention ought to be is not always clear and you actually mentioned this to me off mic, but Aaron Burr, I think in this show, maybe doesn't get the sort of do that you... When I walked out of Hamilton, I was like, who is that? Who is Leslie Odom? That person is a genius. And I don't think I had the same feeling when I saw this, but nevertheless, I did think it was effective. And for the most part, it conveyed the energy that I was looking for. Why were you watching Les Mis productions over the years, Juliet? Well, the 10th anniversary concert is really famous. It's like- It's really famous. It's like the concert and they show it during every PBS fundraiser. They're

all in a line just singing One Day More. It's really important. Yeah. Yeah. It's really famous in musical theater. They've done it a couple of times. There's also one with like Nick Jonas in it from like 10 years ago. Um, but like late for whatever reason, Les Mis is staged for like fundraisers and like commemoration as much as it is for like the actual musical. And that, I think there's just become like the standard, like, this is how we do it when, when it, there are cameras, which is interesting. But I think what's really interesting about Hamilton and the choreographer's name is Andy Blankenbuehler. And he's, um, also a longtime collaborator with, um, Lin-Manuel Miranda and Tommy Kail. And I think that the, the way that, that Tommy and, and Andy Blankenbuehler directed the show and choreographed

the show at its absolute best in songs like nonstop and in Yorktown, um, and certainly in satisfied is they create what I think feels like theater version of a tracking shot and the best case, best case possible where there is a through line of action and there's so much going on around it. Like the thing I get like it most feels like on screen um this is a famous shot from True Detective season one where there's just like so much happening but there's one clear point of view and I think that I missed that feeling in the movie where it's really clear that like though Angelica is leading you telling her perspective of what you just saw and you know the previous two songs. There's so much action happening and just the theatrical production is so well done that like

through the lighting and choreography and direction, you are able to follow a narrative that she is spinning for you while there's so much going on on stage. The entire ensemble is a part of it. And I think that for film, if you're not using a really a tracking shot where you're moving through a lot of space, but you're still confined to the stage, you. So like vivacious is it just operates on so many levels that, so even if you're not having access to the full production and being able to watch this incredibly well or orchestrated production, you're still listening to the music. You're still understanding that you're still like in awe of Renee, at least Goldsberry's ability to rap and to sing.

And they're all like, you know, awe of Renee Elise Goldsberry's ability to rap and to sing and all the registers that she can hit without taking a breath. And her command on camera is as potent as it is on stage. And that's why I've always found the musical just so, so moving. It just operates on so many levels and requires so many people to be doing their jobs well together. And I find that just really beautiful. So I think that there was like trade-offs from the movie, but ultimately everyone being able to see it and also being able to highlight some of these just absolutely stunning performances,

like from Renee Elise Goldberry and Phillip Basu, Leslie Odom and Divi Diggs, and are just like, it's so worth it. I don't know. I just like, I love it. I'm not sure if that's clear. It's fairly clear, but I'm glad you're expressing yourself in that

way because I don't know how to be as sincere as you about it. It's interesting too that on this appearing on Disney+, even though in some ways this is a transgressive work of art, it's still a very friendly and beloved and it's got a lot of child fans. A lot of moms and dads have been playing this soundtrack in the car to chill their children out over the last five years. And to an avoid in our rating, Disney Plus actually removed the two instances of fuck that are omitted, I think, in Yorktown and in Washington on your side. And, you know, that's just some Disney shit in action right there. Were you surprised to see that? Yorktown 1 is really good.

The Yorktown 1 is such a bummer. I love it. So when Hercules Mulligan yells it, I missed that one. Yeah. Hercules Mulligan actually popped to me when I was watching this, to your point. If Leslie Odom fell into the background a little bit, Hercules is a character. He is somebody who I had not thought about that much after seeing the show and then realizing that, you know, that he plays a pretty big part in this story. Um, he's on station 19 on ABC. So he's in the Disney family. Oh, wow. Okay. That's interesting to know. Um, let's talk about some of the, the spikier aspects of, of Hamilton five years later, because I think we'd be remiss if we didn't address some of the ongoing criticism of the show. Much of which I think makes sense and is justified and is evolving, frankly, because the world is evolving, as you pointed out, Juliet.

And the time when we saw this, I think in the same way we've seen a lot of rhetoric about how during the Obama administration, there was a sensation among ignorant people that we had solved a lot of the biggest problems that we had in our country and in our world. And that Hamilton was some sort of representation of this struggle for utopia. And then obviously it is not that. It's a single piece of art and it can't be held accountable to fixing every problem that we have, whether it's around race, class, the way that we view history, et cetera. But those criticisms have kind of come back to the fore with the show being seen by so many people over this weekend. And I thought it was an interesting contrast. I'm not sure if you guys consumed so much of this, but the film criticism about this movie

was almost uniformly positive. There is a profoundly scathing review by Armand White in the National Review that I think if people are looking for something that is deeply skeptical of the work, they can go check that out. But in your big time publications, the LA Times and New York Times, it's pretty much praises across the board, which is very similar to the kind of reception that the show got from theater critics when it began playing at the public and then opened on Broadway. But the press that is a little bit more academic or a little bit more analytical or a little bit more historically minded continues to take issue with some of that. Juliet, as somebody who has been following the show so closely, did you have awareness early on of the sort of discord between the critical bodies about the show? Yeah. I mean, it definitely was a much quieter faction of people who were, I think, took issue with the historical. I think the louder criticism was that Lin is a bad rapper.

That was, I think, very much a part of it when In the Heights came out in 09, I think it was. And then again with Hamilton. That was, and I think that a lot of there was I think that a lot more of the conversation it's not dissimilar but centered around some of his also some called borrowing some called tribute some of the co-opting of hip-hop um and there and I think like while some people may have found like the 10 dual commandments being um a tribute to the 10 crack commandments exciting and thrilling. Some found it offensive

or an act of appropriation or whatnot. And then at the time, there was definitely also historical or historians just critiquing Hamilton for really kind of, there's a few lines that nod towards slavery, but there's only one line. You know, Thomas Jefferson

is one of the most important characters of the play. And because Divvy Diggs is so great, he has, I think, an outsized feeling in Act Two. And there's like this one throwaway line that's like almost played for laughs about Sally Hemings right in the first song of Act Two. And that it's just, you know, I think it's, it is like a cavalier attitude about the role of slavery in the founding of the country. Um, it's undeniable. It's not a focus of the show. It's, you know, I think through the character of John Lawrence, it's, it's voiced several times in act one that, um, we'll never be free until we end slavery. That's the lyric, which comes up a few times, but I think given the sort of really finally finally combed um tapestry that that the musical is to leave slavery out or not or not and

not just leave it out but to not really grapple with the um corrupt morals and by today's standards obviously like just disgusting acts of many of these people is really challenging. I personally find the most vexing performance to be George Washington because One Last Time is such an incredible and beautiful song with, I think, like anyone who feels emotional about goodbyes or endings, like it's very, of which I always do, it's in Christopher Jackson's voice is like just so gorgeous and so stately. But, you know, I think that like one of one of the most important and I think pointed conversation the last few weeks is just the rewriting or not rewriting, but sort of reframing of George Washington as like maybe military leader slash genius, but also like

vile slave owner. So that one is, I don't know how to square. I don't, I don't think you can. So it's difficult. Yeah, it's complicated. I mean, I went back and started reading some things, some of which I was aware of when the, when the show came out and some of which I did not have as much awareness of. I certainly had a lot of awareness as a culture journalist and somebody who's written about rap a lot about Lynn's relationship to rap, which I've always been kind of fascinated by, especially because in interviews repeatedly, he would always say that he modeled the rapping style in some instances of Hamilton after Eminem, which, and if you listen to Lynn rap, you can certainly hear that the cadences that he uses

and the tonality that he uses and the B-Rabbit from 8 Mile style that he brings to those battle raps with Thomas Jefferson. Eminem is a, you know, he's a complicated figure in the history of rap. He's by far the most successful white artist who has worked in the space. And obviously, Lin loves Biggie and there's a lot of Biggie in this show and he loves Mobb Deep. And there was talk about how LL Cool J famously, there was an I Need Love couplet that originally appeared in the show and he loves Mobb Deep. And there was talk about how LL Cool J famously, there was an I Need Love couplet that originally appeared in the show and then was removed because the record label asked him to remove it. And so, you know, I think Lin comes by his admiration and his love for the form really honestly. And also, frankly, there's as much Sondheim tribute in the show as there is LL Cool J tribute. I mean, this is a, these are iterative formats

and people are always kind of paying homage. So that stuff never bothered me. Um, how, how deeply Lynn should reckon with slavery is probably, I'm probably not the best person to be, um, sharing those criticisms, but I did want to share at least a couple of things that Lyra Montero, who has written fairly critically of the show in the past, wrote in 2016. Montero wrote, with a cast dominated by actors of color, the play is nonetheless yet another rendition of the, quote, exclusive past with its focus on the deeds of, quote, great white men and its silencing of the presence and contributions of people of color in the revolutionary era. Montero also wrote one of the first lines says that Hamilton quote, got a lot farther by

working a lot harder by being a lot smarter by being a self-starter. It's this idea that we have in this country that the American dream is achievable if you work hard enough. And if you are poor and unsuccessful, it's because you didn't try and therefore you deserve what you have or rather what you don't have. So it's interesting that this would come up again because the sort of the myth of the meritocracy is something that we're talking about all over again in 2020 and is not going anywhere anytime soon. And I don't know. Amanda, what do you think about the kind of the burden that we put on a cultural phenomenon like this to address the key and salient concerns of the day versus what relationship can people who just like this show have to it without being, um, without analyzing it at this level? It's a complicated question because, you know, even within that question, there are like

eight different Hamiltons. And, you know, I think to an extent that Hamilton was a, a work of art and history that historians, um, and academics have been arguing over is valuable. And then that now other people have the access to actually see this for themselves and be able to participate in that conversation. And so much of Hamilton or one aspect of Hamilton is about who makes history and who tells history and who can be a part of a story. You know, there is the ending, which I hope we can talk more about because I find it quite powerful.

But who gets to participate in that conversation and how we decide those things? I think it's essential to keep having those. And you may watch Hamilton and not agree with the way that Lin-Manuel Miranda has decided to revisit or look at history. And that is completely valid. So in that sense, I think it's really vital. It's what we want art to be able to do. You know, there is like the Hamilton has become so popular that there are so many different

aspects of it. You know, we're living in a world where John Bolton decided to name his memoir, whatever you want to call that thing, after a song from Hamilton, which is, look how far we've traveled, number one, and also how quickly. And so people are now bringing all of their associations and their experiences to a thing that can't possibly live up to all of it. But I think so much of the work is about engaging with history. So yeah, let's keep doing that. Yeah, it's one of the unanswered questions. And I'm not sure if Lin-Manuel Miranda or Tommy Kail or anybody else who's associated with the show has been directly faced with a kind of a naughty intellectual question, which is, is this show self-conscious or is it not? Is it self-conscious specifically about the idea of what you're saying, Amanda, that history is told by the victors and is told by the most powerful? And so because of that, there seems to be some awareness

and it's a thematic through line of Hamilton, but does it acknowledge that that is actually potentially a flaw of this show itself? Or is the race conscious casting a comment on that? You know, like in many ways, the best art, the creators don't directly explain every single choice. But in the case of Hamilton, it's an interesting one because it's been written about so much and it's been discussed and analyzed so deeply and so frequently that you'd think we'd arrive at some sort of final conclusion about these things. I don't know, Julia, what do you think? I think if you watch an original Lin-Manuel Miranda and take in the full body of his work he's just so

endearingly earnest um and so I don't think like self-awareness is is the main um sort of uh self-reflexive feeling that comes from the show but there are a couple of moments that I think just nod towards the continual re-understanding and rewriting of history. First of all, the speech that he quotes or just the George Washington farewell address that is I find so movingly written into one last time, I think is part of that where he just,

you know, he acknowledges defects and whatnot, say he's not perfect. Again, that is the piece of this musical that i personally find the hardest to really like square up with like the like with politics and and the way we should be talking about slavery and the founding fathers then i think to amanda's point at the end um you know the last song is just is who lives who dies who tells your story and eliza is the

character who closes out the musical and she is the whole time been the dies who tells your story and eliza is the character who closes out the musical and she is the whole time been the one who she and angelica are most engaged with as characters with narrative and and um sort of who like who's telling the story and perspective and whatnot so i think that choice definitely tips towards like i don't think they're i don't think the musical is trying to posit like this is don't think there, I don't think the musical is trying to posit like, this is the final word on American history. This is not the final word on Alexander Hamilton. Hopefully it's not the final word on Eliza Hamilton, who we don't know that much about.

Um, and I, and you know, it's funny, like as soon as I saw in one point last month that the statue of George Schuyler was toppled in New York, I was thinking about how that's really complex for the musical Hamilton, because the Schuyler's are probably actually the least political characters in the musical. And in some ways, George Schuyler is like one of the most vicious slave owners who hovers over the musical. And so that's a real, uh, and I think the charm of the Skylar sisters and like the, the, um, musical background that those three, uh, those three characters bring to the show, like just sort of really covers over a lot of the sins of the Skylar family. And so that's like a tricky one as well. But I guess to me, and I say this with the luxury of like a white person being energized by a really diverse cast.

Like, I'm just like, well, it's not just about the Skylers qua Skylers. It's like much more about like, you know, who was fighting for independence and what it meant to think for yourself in the 18th century. But I think having those opinions and viewing the musical through that prism is in many ways an act of privilege. And so I've been very aware of that in the last couple of weeks as I've just been thinking about the musical. I think in addition to the pure joy that this show gives a lot of people, it also does something that all great art should do, which is it provokes, it demands that we think more seriously, more intensely about what it is about. And if we learn that it is flawed, that's great. That's an amazing opportunity. The, uh, Montero, who I quoted also noted in interviews during 2016, they loved that show. They, they, they,

they loved Hamilton as a, as a Broadway achievement, which is part of what's so fascinating about this as like a cultural document. It is in many ways undeniable. And that's like a good opportunity, I think, for us to talk about what we love about it. But that's what I respond to is it's naughty and maybe it does have some problems, but it's also powerful and fun.

Yeah, I saw a lot of that on Twitter yesterday too. Like I acknowledge these shortcomings, but this musical makes me bop my head and makes me happy. So it's complicated. That's Disney at its most, right? Great point. It's so hard to believe this only recently became a Disney property because that is so much the values of Disney. Yeah. I was just going to say, I, I, there are some very catchy songs. I've had the, um, did George the third song in my head since I rewatched this, but, um, just cause I think that's the only one that I could actually sing, but I do also, when I rewatched it, I, I don't know that we've talked enough about this as like a, an achievement of, of like a musical and theater and just like of a mind, like to quote the musical,

which apparently I can do a mind at work. And that is what like stood out for me on rewatch it, you know, well, two things like the current context and then just, you know, the amount, the ability to bring together all of these references and the,

you know, from musical theater and obviously history and hip hop and, you know, Shakespeare and put it all together and pull together all the performances that, you know, Juliet sing a lot, which are extraordinary. It's like, it, it's really an achievement, but it's also, it is very intellectual even in its essence. And it's asking you to, to think in ways that we don't normally, I think like maybe ever, but certainly when you go to a musical theater and maybe to engage with some of these questions, which I think is important.

I agree. And it distinguishes itself from a lot of other musicals, some of which are great, but are not frequently intellectual exercises. And so I think that's part of the way that Broadway is obviously evolving. Like if you look at what Oklahoma was last year, that's a, that feels like a continuation of a lot of what Hamilton started to forge in

that space too. God willing, we'll be able to go back to the theater at some point soon, along with movie theaters. Let's, let's talk about personal favorite moments before we start to wrap up this conversation. Amanda,

I'm going to let you go first. What's your favorite part of Hamilton? I found the ending tremendously moving. And I remember I found it very moving the first time that I saw it when I got to see it in theater, in the theater. Possibly just because I'm, I would like a really obvious statement and it does bring a lot of the implied themes of the, of the show and of that intellectual curiosity to the forefront and I just also think it's really staged really well and then somehow I'd completely forgotten that that's how it ended and I was thinking a lot about how like huh they don't really give the women a lot to do in this which you know that they do obviously have moments to shine but

to then be instantly reminded with this just extremely emotional and like philosophical and historical moment is to me very powerful. Yeah. Julia, you want to talk about the ending, too? What did you make of it? I thought it was like Philip Asu, who's just really excellent. I think that her performance is better on screen than it is on stage. I think for the audience, you can appreciate it better. I think it's, I think she is solid across the board, but just for the audience, I think that you're able to appreciate the nuance of what she does, especially, um, during songs like satisfied where she is like

a big part of the action, but she is not the main player. I think that stuff comes across a lot, a lot clearer. And so it was really cool getting to see her performance. Um, I also am like just an absolute huge loser with so much free time by myself where I just like listen to a lot of the like interstitials from the musical on SoundCloud. And so I like really, really love, um, at the end of act one where she is reading the letter from John Lawrence's father. When John Lawrence dies, I find that to be just an incredibly sad scene. And it's rumored that Hamilton and Lawrence had a relationship and like may have been in love. And I think that comes across really beautifully in that scene where it may not in other parts of the show and not even

sure it's intentional, but I've just always found that the way that he's so galvanized by the death of Lawrence to be so moving and that it drives him into like, just, it drives Hamilton to like do work. And I just, so I really enjoyed that. But I think just the most like thrilling part of the show is the run from helpless to satisfied to wait for it. Um, it's a one, two, three punch that like, I don't know that any album and any genre could ever top. It is completely perfect. And the fact that I could just watch it at any time is overwhelmingly exciting. It's funny that you bring up Philippa Sue. I just watched this movie that was supposed to come out in July, but probably won't called the broken hearts gallery. And Philippa Soo shows up as a

sassy best friend. She's like a cool pal in the movie. And we've started to see a lot of these figures from the show start to crop up in our content. Daveed Diggs starred in Blindspotting a couple of years ago. Last time we talked, it was about Mary Poppins, where Lin-Manuel Miranda played a chimney sweep. We're seeing all these people. My favorite thing in the musical is a part of what you were just talking about, Juliet. And it stars somebody who I love, Renee Elise Goldsberry, who we saw in Waves last year, who I think is just an amazing actor and an incredible singer. And Satisfied is definitely my favorite song. And it's partially because it's so unlike everything else in this show. And I think people take for granted how hard it is to do what Destiny's Child does. That's the hardest music in the history of popular music.

And, and Lynn wrote a Destiny's Child song and then found somebody who could do it. Like, and she, Renee Elise Goldsberry is so good and so talented and so amazing and the point of view of that song i think is so powerful and so interesting and complex strike me as a woman who has never been satisfied i'm sure i don't know what you mean you forget yourself you're like me i'm never satisfied is that right i've never been satisfied my name is angelica schuyler it plays with time like a richard linklater movie plays with time you know it goes it takes us back and it sees that the story through another lens which is so much thematically like what this show is about and tries to be about.

So I love that song. I love that performance so much. And it really worked on me when I was watching the movie. I think also Satisfied is like just one of the reasons Hamilton has such broad appeal because it's a Destiny's Child song.

They looked for someone, they were searching for someone who they felt could wrap it in like a style of Nicki Minaj. And to me, it is like the next version of on my own from Les Mis. Like it's the song of like absolute longing and pining and, and just so much emotion. And so it combines just like three incredible traditions in one amazing song. And then the staging is really amazing. Somehow the staging is like also a little bit playful during it and i thought that i thought that satisfied was probably my favorite scene in

the movie um it's not i mean it's you know unfair advantage because the song is so perfect but i thought that this the the direction captured what makes that aside such an important fulcrum for the musical really well any closing thoughts on hamilton guys? It's good. I'm giving Juliet the last word. One thing I wanted to point out to listeners, if they're interested in a sort of a double feature, is the National Theatre in London just put on a production earlier this year of Lorraine Hansberry's LeBlanc, which is Lorraine Hansberry famously wrote A Raisin in the Sun, black female playwright who died tragically in her 30s. And we didn't get a chance to see all the work that she was going to make. But this was her last play, unfinished,

set in a fictional African country. And in the same way that Hamilton works as a fascinating document of stagecraft, this show is very much about some of the same themes of colonialism and power. And it's just an incredible, incredible show. I studied Hansberry when I was in college and I was always blown away by her writing and her perceptivity. And you can just watch it for free on YouTube. You don't even need a Disney Plus subscription to check out LeBlanc. So check that out if you're interested. Juliette and Amanda, thank you very much for doing this today. Later this week, Amanda is going to be back.

We have like a handful of actual real movies to talk about, Amanda. Are you excited about that? Yes, I am. So there's three of them. We'll talk about them over the course of probably the next two or three episodes. But on Hulu, we got Palm Springs springs delightful sundance hit starring andy sandberg on apple tv plus we're gonna uh welcome in kevin clark to talk to us about the long delayed world war ii naval thriller greyhound which stars tom hanks and on netflix an adaptation of the graphic novel the old guard which stars charlie's theron and kiki lane and was directed by the great Gina Prince-Bythewood,

who's best known for Love and Basketball and Beyond the Lights. I talked to Gina too, so that'll be on next Friday's episode. And yeah, it's nice to have some damn movies to talk about. So please stick around to The Big Picture. And now stick around for a word

from an exciting new show on The Ringer Podcast Network. around for a word from an exciting new show on the ringer podcast network I'm so excited to introduce the Bukhari Sellers podcast in partnership with The Ringer. We're tackling the issues of the day through interviews with high-profile guests and conversations with a rotating panel of the country's best and leading thinkers, influencers, and writers. You know, I'm not only an attorney and a former elected official, sometimes you see me on CNN and I'm a new author of a New York Times bestselling book, My Vanishing Country. But now we're introducing the Bukhari Sellers podcast, and we're going to cover everything from the 2020 election to sports and culture to the larger movement for racial equality in the United States. We're going to have some of your favorite quarterbacks, some of your favorite politicians, some of your favorite athletes, writers, singers, actors, actresses. The Bukhari Sellers podcast will debut on Monday, June 29th.

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