The Big Picture - ‘Hamnet’ and the 10 Best Performances of 2025. Plus: Kleber Mendonça Filho on ‘The Secret Agent.’

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Joanna Robinson on today’s show to cover Chloe Zhao’s adaptation of ‘Hamnet,’ starring Jessie Buckley and Paul Mescal. They unpack their complicated feelings by highlighting the film's incredible emotional power, and also criticize aspects they found totally confounding (12:28). Next, they briefly discuss Kleber Mendonça Filho’s ‘The Secret Agent’ and celebrate Wagner Moura’s wonderful performance at the center of the film (48:46). Then, they share their individual top 10 favorite performances of 2025 (55:47). Finally, Sean is joined by Mendonça Filho to explain how some fiction work can discover even more truth than documentary, his thought process behind utilizing split diopter shots, and why he wrote the lead role of the movie specifically for Moura (1:45:46). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Kleber Mendonça Filho and Joanna Robinson Producer: Jack Sanders Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.® Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennacy. I'm Amanda Dobbin. And this is the Big Picture and Conversation Show about Hamnet and the best performances of the year. Today we will talk about Chloe Zhao's new adaptation of Maggie O'Farrell's novel, about the family life of William Shakespeare. Perhaps you've heard of the man. This has been an awards. magnet thus far and features a particularly acclaimed performance from Jesse Buckley.

Joanna Robinson is joining us to have those conversations. Hello. I'm thrilled to be here. What an honor to be sandwiched between two of my favorite people. Thank you for being back here. Speaking of great performances, you will give one on this episode. Also, Claibor Mendonso Filio will give a great one. He is on the show. We're going to talk about his new film, The Secret Agent, which also features one of the great performances of the year from Wagner Mora. This is a film set in 1977 Brazil, lots of intrigue, lots of sharks. lots of unexpected absurdity and heartbreaking truth about life under the thumb of power. It's an awards film. It's a beautiful movie. You know, Filio, he was a film critic and a programmer, so he speaks our language.

He's one of us. He's one of us. And he was really great to talk to. I felt like I was hanging out with an older colleague when we were chatting, even though he's a genius and I'm a schmuck. We'll get into all that stuff very soon. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's is that last minute scramble to make it all come together? From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now.

Before we get into Hamnet, let's talk about some news. Really good news, really exciting news, a billboard went up. Don't you love when a billboard goes up and you think something cool is about to happen, Billboard went up. This time, it was a billboard for the new Steven Spielberg film, which may or may not be called Disclosure. This new movie stars Josh O'Connor, Emily Blunt, Holman Domingo, Colin Firth, Wyatt Russell,

and we think it's about aliens. We don't know. It was rumored at some point, right? Yes, there is a, there is a rumor going around that I don't think is true, that it is a quasi-sequel the close encounters of the third time. Now, I don't believe that specifically. They screened some footage at Universal, right?

Did they? Yeah, I think some people saw some footage. And was Richard Dreyfus in that footage? There were some tones, familiar tones. Yeah, I mean, isn't every Spielberg movie, a quasi-sequel? That's what the close encounters of the third kind? Said with respect. Very fair point.

And appreciation for his work and the plight of the divorced child. Yes, a child of divorce. Yeah. A child of divorce. Yeah. The skies and wondering, why me, God, slash aliens? Yeah. Slash dad. I was happy this was, this hit the world because, you know, we've done Spielberg episodes

together, the three of us, and Spielberg very, very important as a filmmaker to all three of us, and frankly, really, really to most movie fans. But this new movie is a big old-fashioned summer blockbuster coming June 12, 2026. Yeah. Your thoughts on the billboard. I appreciate a date, as you know, I'm a planner. I like to get that calendar organized. Oh, like to send the invites, like to send the family invites.

So thank you for the specificity. And it was the Billboard in Times Square? I believe so. Have you ever, do you want a Billboard in Times Square? Is that an ambition of yours? Do I want a bill? Yeah. Like a video like the big vertical video one.

Yeah. Of your face. Of me? The like Frazier, the Frasier TV show one. And then you can like be posing in front of it, you know? I could not want something. I'm talking about physical media. I would rather.

drink bleach while watching Pete Alonzo hit 500 home runs. What do you convert the masses and all the buskers and all the tourists of New York? Yeah. What if it's a billboard for Forecase? Yeah. And it's like a tower of and you and you get your little face peeping over a tower. Lifetime supply. Yeah. Unlimited you like you are the king of four case and then you get every edition forever. Keep talking. No, I don't want that. I'm I'm more than happy to cede that real estate to Steven Spielberg. Any thoughts about this, this promotional moment? It's not really news. I think it's fun that there's mystery around it. I think that's really fun. I have reservations around it because in our last, in our Spielberg conversations, I think

we've talked about, is this our favorite Spielberg era that we're in right now? I think David Kep being involved is both interesting and nerve making because we all loved BlackBag, but I don't think any of us loved the Jurassic Park movie that came out this year, except Amanda did. I had a nice time. Okay, a fun-fined time at the movies. You know what? Jonathan Bailey met that computer brannosaurus

on the island, and he delivered emotion. And I responded to it. I think Amanda's going to love this movie. Also, a brontasaurus took over Cable Hill, okay? Okay. So what more could you ask for? This is the kind of scintillating film insights that we expect from this show.

I'm excited about this movie. We'll talk about it a lot. more in the coming days. I don't know how you can have that take and then have the reaction that you just had to the trailer that we just watched. You can't be, well, I guess you can get paid multitudes. I guess you can.

You can, you can respond to dinosaurs. You can contain contradictory multitudes. Yeah. Speaking of the bard. Sure, well, that's Walt Whitman, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And speaking of that, the dinosaur, the brannosaurus in question, like, was, his park was right. by the Brooklyn Bridge, speaking of Walt Whitman. The Brontosaurus in question. Yeah, sure. I think it was a brannosaurus. I'm not sure.

I do think that dinosaur, like, genealogy has evolved. Would you list the brontosaurus as one of the top performances of the year? Well, he's not seen, you know. But it's invocative. Yeah, it's just the idea of what has happened to New York real estate that is interesting to me. I'll bet it is. You know, it's of a world. You just alluded to a new trailer that just hit this.

This morning for another coming blockbuster, I don't, we'll see, I guess, for Supergirl. Piece of IP? Yes. This is the second film officially in the new DCU, James Gunn and Peter Safran's reimagining of the DC movies. Superman came out last summer. It did very well. We all liked it. People liked it.

We liked it. This new movie is directed by Craig Gillespie. It stars Millie Alcock of Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon fame, who was terrific in the first season of that show, I thought. And she starts a Supergirl. Mattia Shonarts is in this film, I guess, as the villain. What else would he be doing here? A guy with some pins on his face. Jason Momoa probably in this film as Lobo.

What are your thoughts on the character Lobo? I know you've been waiting for Lobo, right? Even counting the days. So he's not Aquaman. He is not. Even though this is Aquaman is part of the DC universe. We don't know who's going to be portraying Aquaman. But he was previously Aquaman.

That was the DC-EU. Sure. Great. This is the DC-E-U. That was the Snyder regime. Okay. This is the Gunniverse. So Lobo, land, air, or sea?

Land. Okay. He's an alien. He's an alien. Is he a bounty hunter? Sometimes. He's a bounty hunter sometimes. Well known for his cigar chomping and his sort of D.C.'s answer to Wolverine, yeah.

You know, like a kind of a tough guy. Adamantium? No. Well, that's what Logan has, but there's no adamantium in the D.C. I just wanted to make sure that I was remembering. That's Wolverine, and then Wakanda makes what? Vibranium. Thank you.

And in Avatar, it's unobtainium. That's correct. Which is completely not referenced in Avatar's two and three. Well, I'm sorry, but they've moved on to, you know, other... Water and Fire. Right, but also other, even more unobtainium. Whale brain juice. Sure, yeah.

That's what they're after in the second film and perhaps in the third. Great. Welcome back I hate Avatar I hate Avatar Supergirl Help me with Supergirl Come on

No I mean it looks fun Does it Like a fun Find fun It looks okay It looks okay It doesn't look I don't

It looks kind of standard Which is not what you want We want it to be special It's interesting I was interested to see If they were going to try To sort of invoke The Birds of Prey

And they are In a way that I'm surprised because that film didn't go over super well, but doesn't this trailer feel like it was trying to do exactly what that film marketing campaign was trying to do? But Millie Alcock is great. And her like, toussel doesn't have her shit together,

but her beechy waves look good. Hair is doing a lot of work in this trailer. So I think it'll be fun and fine. Yeah. That's what I think. But it won't have that extra juice that Superman had, which is James Gunn accessing a level of heart that we weren't expecting he would,

I wasn't expecting he would be able to get to. I think you're right. It's an interesting gambit for D.C. in general to say, okay, on the heels of the relaunch of this with the biggest franchise, I guess the second biggest character, at least in the movie world. Now we're going to do Supergirl at Clayface. And we're going to kind of lower the stakes a little bit and lower the expectations because these are lesser-known characters.

They're smaller movies. Craig Gillespie, it's not really a filmmaker I have a lot of time for, to be honest with you. It tends to make zippy, entertaining, but very empty movies. And that's kind of the vibe I got from this trailer, but we'll see. I think fun, fun, fine time of the movies. Yeah. Okay. You didn't want to ask my thoughts?

Well, what are they? I Googled something to get them ready. What did you Google? So Jacob Allorty recently gave an interview to Vanity Fair, and he was asked about AI and filmmaking. I see. And he gave the following answer, which does apply to my feelings about AI and filmmaking, but is also has a broader application.

So as a human being, I have no tolerance. not even being asked about it. I just have no interest in it at all because it's so fucking boring. It goes on. It boars me personally. As far as I'm concerned, I would much rather kiss on the beach

and read a novel and be sunburnt. But brontasori and whale brain juice you have a lot of time for. Some things bore me. No, also the whale branges. I like the whales in Avatar. But I'd, yeah. No, well, I think that they should get

to keep their brain juice. I'm pro-animals. I don't think that's a controversial statement. I'm going to think. I'm going the other way. I want more brain juice in my home. So it's just, it doesn't interest me. I would rather kiss on the beach and read a novel and be sunburned.

But you, someone better make me that hat for Christmas. But you did like Superman more than you thought you would, right? I did. I liked the, I thought that David Corrin Sweat and Rachel Brosnahan were, like, very good. And they, like, had a certain charm. But, like, once it got away from the pretty essential, like, goofy boy and really on it, girl, and I don't know, I have some feelings. And, like, the more we got into the lore and the world building and all of the fighting

and the CGI River or whatever they're on, the less I was compelled by it. So it's one of these things, like the closer we get from the cortex and the more we get into the fan service, just the more I'm interested in I am in a non. Keep it grounded. Yeah. In like Brontosaurus and whale birds. Sure. I mean, Brontasauri were real people.

I mean, animals. Sure. And we brought them back, you know. So there was like a science, drafts and park of science. Exactly. Right. And as the, you know, premier science corner of the, of the internet. Yeah.

That's, it speaks to my interest. This is the premier science corner of the entire internet. Yeah. The one that you host on this show. Just me. Yeah. It's right here. We haven't determined if science corner is asking questions or answers.

It is a vigorous discussion. With yourself and sometimes with him. Kind of checked out most of the time when she starts going off on that. Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest on select nights now through January 3rd. Step into a winter wonderland filled with millions of dazzling lights, festive shows, rides, and holiday treats. Plus, Coca-Cola is back with Canada's kindest community, celebrating acts of kindness nationwide with a chance at a chance at all. 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at Canada's Wonderland.com.

Speaking of sticking to the text and staying grounded, let's talk about Hamnet, you know? Okay. This is a big one. This is one of the most important movies of the year, and I've said that a few times on this show this year, at least relative to something that we cover over a six-month period, which is the Academy Awards and prestige film and serious film. We've got an Academy Award winner directing this movie. This is Chloe Zhao's first film since Eternals, a film that I thought was quite poor.

Very bad. But coming off of Nomad Land, a movie that I liked quite a bit, which I think has developed a little bit of a negative reputation as an Oscar winner. It was a COVID-era movie. But I found a lot of sincerity and thoughtfulness in that movie. I thought that was a really interesting evolution of her filmmaking style. So, you know, I try to be very open-minded about her despite coming off of this MCU car crash, which she has also spoken about quite a bit. And she's taken on this interesting task. She's adapting a really well-loved novel by Maggie O'Farrell

about a tremendously famous person in our literary history. Amnett at Shakespeare. A person I did not know about anything about. And I want to kind of foreground our conversation about this movie by saying that not only did I not know anything about the novel and had not read the novel before I saw the film. I didn't know anything about Shakespeare's life. Not a single thing. I studied a lot of Shakespeare in college.

I've read a lot of his plays I've never read a single thing I have many leather bound books Smells of great mahogany But I just didn't know any of the biography So when I sat down to watch this movie It was revelation Or at least perceived revelation

Based on what's inside of the novel And I still to this day I don't know what's accurate And not accurate and so forth It's not very accurate Okay that's helpful to know I guess Although it ultimately doesn't matter The film is shot by Lucas Zal

Most recently shot the zone of interest The film's edited by Zhao and Afonso Gungalvis Who is also Todd Haynes' editor One of the best editors in the world Music is by Max Richter Quite notably And for a couple of reasons Yeah

The movie is about Shakespeare and his wife Annius celebrating the birth of their son Hamnet And then Tragedy strikes How much are we talking about is my question? How do you talk about this movie? I think we have to talk about all of it, right?

Yeah. Well, the film does open with a title card that says in 16th century England, the names Hamlet and Hamnet were interchangeable. And then it ascribes the quote to the birth. I believe it's the death of Hamlet and the birth of Hamlet. Yeah, exactly. But anyway, the death of Hamlet is there on the very first title card. Yeah.

It's a premise, I would say. Yes. So I'll also say we'll be spoiling the events of the film in this conversation because you just cannot talk about the movie without actually exploring what happens particularly in the second half of the movie. So Joanna, since you're our guest, I'll start with you. What did you think of Hamnet? So I think it's really interesting when you talk about being an important film because I do think it's an important movie for, especially for like lovers of your podcast for this inflection point we find ourselves in in Hollywood and the love of going to the theater and what it means for. to share art together in a space. I think it is so important for that reason. I think it's the most important movie of the year for that conversation. I don't think it's the best movie I saw this year. I don't think it should win Best Picture or anything like that.

But in terms of if you care about going to the movies, which I think people who listen to your podcast do. I hope so. We try. This, I don't think any other movie, not Babylon, one of your beloved, not Jay Kelly, which sort of purports to do it this year, has captured what that means in a communal space, the way that this movie does. So important with the capital I, but I also think I've been a little dismayed by the way the wonderful people who worked on this film have been talking about this film. I think they're making it sound really unapproachable, really. They're talking about it in a, in a high art kind of way, which I have

a lot of space for in a very sort of Mother Gaia goddess Earthway. There's like Boo-woo spirituality. I worry is going to turn people off. And what I think this movie has to say about the universal idea of grief and the universal idea of how we use art to process that is really accessible. Something that Paul Meskell has said and something in my drama teachers used to say is that you don't have to understand the words of Shakespeare at all. If it's done well, you get it. Emotionally, it impacts you.

So you don't need to know anything about Shakespeare. You need to understand even the language of Hamlet in order to feel what happens at the sort of climax of this film, I would argue. And so I just hope that people think of it in a more accessible way than I worry it's being talked about. Does that make sense? It does. I think it's a great advocacy for the film itself. Did you read the novel? I did.

Okay. And did you read the novel? I did and loved the novel. Okay. So you both read the novel before you saw the film. Yes. Okay. So what did you think of Hamnet?

So I think Joanna makes a great point, and that is the best case for the film. and it certainly locates what is best about the film and what is, and what was best about the book, I felt as well, which is the ending. And the ending is spectacularly moving. I've seen the film twice. I have ugly cried both times. I think it really does reveal the power of art and seeing art together and, you know, it's like an art and grief, to your point. And so I don't want to undersell that because once they are in the Globe Theater, it's really amazing stuff. I found myself incredibly resistant to the rest of the film.

And I think some of it is what Joanna located is that there is a real woo-woo energy to the first hour and to the characterization of Agnes in particular, which. the sort of like woods witch pedigree sort of thing yeah and then but but then bleeds into the actual filmmaking and like respectfully if I had to see that tree one more time I was going to light myself on fire I get it you know

it's like it's beautiful and powerful and it has it's you know connects to the sky but also there are deep roots in the earth and then there's like something unknowable down below like wow yeah like I get it I've been thinking a lot of about what works for me in train dreams,

which is a not dissimilar movie and what doesn't work for me in Hamnet. One of them is that I didn't read train dreams the novel and I did read Hamlet the book. Though I really don't think that my concerns are about the adaptation or what it leaves out of the book. It is about just what the film chooses to emphasize and also how it communicates the information,

which I found to be very obvious, very tell, don't show. And so there's something of just, it is a movie about grief, but it is a movie set in the 16th century, but it is, or maybe the 17th century. And but it is like very post-psychology, post-therapy, like, let me tell you that this is a movie about grief. 45,000 times and we all need to this, we are processing our feelings in a way that I I guess I'm allergic to and

ultimately when it just does let people and let the characters process feelings all together, I think it's tremendously effective but I was pretty impatient with the rest. I've seen it twice now too sort of and I'll tell you a little bit later about my second movie going experience

which was interesting. The first time I saw it was over the summer And I saw it before the fall festivals Like I said, I hadn't read the book And didn't really know what to expect And I found the first hour A crushing bore I found it really hard to act

To get inside the story I found Zhao applying her filmmaking style Which is very bound by nature The Natural World And the way that kind of human beings Both try to coexist And also trample on it

just something that's like pretty consistent throughout nomad land throughout all of her films the rider but it didn't it felt like she was trying to get her arms around like maybe a more traditional Hollywood style of filmmaking we should note steven Spielberg as the product one of the producers of this film felt like her trying to access some of the more distinct structures of like a prestigious hollywood movie emily watson as like a stern woman in a household you know like some things that just felt like um you might see in a miramax movie in 1996 yeah emily watson Since one scene is dynamite. But the second half of the movie, the first time I saw it absolutely just killed me.

Like I went from being completely checked out in minute 47 and like thinking about my grocery list, which is something I really try hard not to do while watching films for this show, to being similarly like just devastated by it. And not just by the death of a young child, but by the communication of how some. Some people choose to reckon with their feelings and how they cope. And I think it's a really interesting movie about coping. We use the word cope a lot in our culture as like your team just lost in the world series cope. Yeah. But, you know, there's a variety of versions of it. There's both Annius and Shakespeare's version of it.

There is even small things like actors trying to get performance right and trying to cope with feedback that I think is like pretty insightful and well observed. And then I agree that the final 20 minutes is just this absolute sledgehammer I don't want to overestimate how hard that is to do It's manipulative and there are manipulating factors That are applied to it We can talk about the music We can talk about the performance style

But to garner emotion is not to be overlooked I think a lot of critics tend to say like that's cheap I don't see movie watching that way I think if you can catch me you can catch me And that matters to me So I find myself like really split on the movie I think it's like good I think it's good

I don't think it's great. I don't think it's bad. I think it's just good. I absolutely get that take. I would say the first hour and a half are so for me. And I understand that that particular strain of so for me is not for a lot of people. And I get that that is like it's just a fastball down the middle for me. And then the rest of the movie is, I think, for everyone.

And I am curious to hear about how you guys saw it. Because I saw it at a festival screening in a room full of strangers. Like I didn't go with anyone I went because I was working. went to the festival, surrounded by strangers, weeping in a room with strangers. I don't know if you've ever heard this before, but heartbreak feels good in a place like this. You know what I mean? Just like, you can't underestimate how powerful that is. And Chloe Zhao is a filmmaker that I have never responded very well to.

Not Nomadland, not the writer, certainly not Eternals. I was really worried when I heard she was taking on Buffy Vampire Slayer, which is one of my favorite properties. I was like, no, no, thank you. And so I had maybe lower expectations for this than I would if it were a different filmmaker. But I think I find Jesse Buckley and Paul Meskell sort of like endlessly watchable personally. And what they brought to this movie, when you hear them talk about the process of this movie, it's, again, very woo-woo, but also very based in the theater. And it sounds like both Buckley and Meskow brought a lot of their own ideas to the movie. to the property, and Chloe Zhao was, said, okay, go ahead.

So some of the biggest moments for me, like William talking to his son, young son, Hamden, and say, like, will you be brave? This moment that just, like, actually really got to me was an improv that Paul Meskell did in rehearsal or the whole closing sequence in the globe, a lot of which was directed by Jesse Buckley improv. So there's a lot that these particular theater-based performers brought to the table that I think, overrode this sort of arid way that I usually respond to a Chloe Zhao property. These are very emotive performers in everything.

They're famous for that. So I think that helped me access it. But I don't, I'm not surprised to hear the way you guys fell about the rest of the day. I like the performances too. And I like both, which I think there may be some feedback on. Some split opinion. I did not like both. Yeah.

But I What I liked about them was the rawness And there's a scene Midway through the movie Which to me is possibly even more upsetting Than the end scene Which is

The When Jesse When Ania says Jesse Buckley Gives birth to twins And The second twin Is a surprise as it was

in those days and also is not immediately visibly alive. And just there's a camera hold on Jesse Buckley in great physical distress holding that child and working through all of it. And then when the child does start crying, I'm getting really emotional, as you can see. But like the wonder and the fear

and the what's going on in her face is like, you can't re-producing. That is astonishing. You can't, like, reproduce it. Sorry, excuse me. So it clearly really worked on me. But I also, at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if I think the characters are very good. Like, I think just the actual, like, the ending scene where it's leading with her improv, I mean, I think it's the most amazing thing.

And I think when she reaches out, again, I'm going to start crying. Like, it really works. But until that moment, I'm like, does this person have a head injury? Like, what's going on? Like, there is something that is so. in conflict between their performances, and these two people on screen are so talented and so able to communicate, not even ideas, really, just emotion. And I think that's astonishing and an accomplishment. But I don't know if they are always tied to ideas or like the

schema of a film. I don't disagree. I think it's like a very, again, I don't want to sound too sort of woo-woo, but it feels a very primal performance. You know what I mean? They don't feel like fully formed characters. They feel like sort of elemental emotional. I do sound very woo-woo talking about that. But I, like, that works on me, but I don't disagree with a critique that these don't feel like real people. This isn't a like biopic of William Shakespeare where you're going to walk away and saying, like, I really understand who William Shakespeare is. That's not what this film is reporting to do. All of that until they get to Hamlet and like the actual architecture of the novel is like straight up embarrassing. Like with, with, with,

With the exception of the scene in which, like, Paul Meskell is doing, as Shakespeare is doing Hamnet rehearsals, and it's Noah Jup is playing Hamnet. And he keeps correcting him. And then he does it. And that was the one time where I was like, oh, yeah, Paul Meskill, like, is trained in the theater and can, like, do Hamlet if he needs to do Hamlet. Yeah, it's really great. And he's really good in it. But every other, like, winking, I mean, you know, they jam in the rest of silence somewhere. I'm sorry.

I, do they have him recite to be or not to be in the book? I don't remember it, but I almost, and it's not Paul Meskell's fault, but what are we doing? Well, yeah, I mean, it literalizes this idea of mortality that's in that speech where he's literally standing before the water and considering whether to give himself over to the earth, you know, and that's like kind of a big theme of the movie is we are a part of the earth and we are like coexisting and we are meant to be living inside of trees and on the open land, but we're not. kind of savages who build and destroy and that's just a huge thing in all of Chloe Show's movies. And she's trying to like kind of hammer that I think on top of the dramatic

framework of the novel and the characters. I don't know. Mescal to me does not emit vibrant wit. And like that is something in Shakespeare that I think is a kind of vital component. You're a Joseph Fein's guy. I wouldn't say that.

I wouldn't say that. Even though there's a little bit of Shakespeare in love in this movie. Not enough, actually. Maybe not enough, like, zip in the film. But I think when it is attempting to really make you feel, I'll tell you another scene that I really like there was along those lines was when he's writers blocked and he's drinking and he's sitting at the desk and he's like, I've had too much to drink and he just

doesn't know what to do and he's just kind of like got his head in his hands and she's trying to help him. There's nothing that she can say to him to help him. Yeah. You know, we've all been there. You know, like, it happens. Like, that's a very relatable moment in that movie. It was interesting to me to hear what you guys thought about this,

because there is inside of this a story that I feel like you both really respond to, which is like the great man burden with greatness. The, like, I have to create the bomb or play table tennis or whatever it is or else I'll die. You know what I mean? And so, like, that part of it is like, I have to go to London or I'll die. It's true, but that isn't what the movie is. Like, that is an idea that is in the movie, but this is not William Shakespeare's movie. Anya's movie.

Right. And I more or less agree with all of the plot that Jesse Buckley is receiving. Listeners of the show know Jesse Buckley is one of my favorite actresses alive. I think she can do anything. I think she is absolutely magical. And I think she pretty much puts the movie on her shoulders in the final hour. But it's interesting to have William Shakespeare and all of his words and works be so center of the structure of the story, but then not. feel his energy, I guess.

You know, maybe up until that final 20 minutes when, of course, like, literally watching his work performed and then intrinsically woven into his life. Maybe some people will say they closed it, like they landed the plane, they nailed it. But for the first hour and a half, I was like, this is, this doesn't even feel like Shakespeare at all to me. That thing that you're talking about in terms of like that, which I usually hate, I have an analogy to that magpie sort of, it's in, it's in blue moon a lot and it really bothered me in that movie.

That's sort of like, oh, I'm going to take that, I'm going to take that, I'm going to take that and put this into this great piece of work that you're all familiar with. Yeah. But there are, there's, there's a purpose to it inside of this one because it's important for her to recognize these shared things that have been in their lives that are now inside of this play. So like, it had a purpose to me more than a clever winking, winking, you know that this is a line from Hamlet. And that actor instruction scene, that's a Hamlet scene, you know what I mean? So there's just like, there are ways in which it hits you like an anvil and then there's a way in which it's sort of more subtly woven in a way.

But, like, that kind of thing usually really bothers me. You know, sometimes it works, and sometimes it really, really does not. Yeah. As in the to be or not to be seen. And then when they make poor Joe Allen, long-suffering Joe Allen just to show up and be like, we are looking for William Shakespeare. I mean, it's real, you know, Leo, you know, once a lot of time. Like, yeah, we know.

We know who it is. Let me tell you briefly about my two movie-going experiences. This normally wouldn't be very interesting, but I'm going to share it. The first time I saw it, I saw it on the lot at Universal, and it was at a theater I'd never been to before, and I got lost. And on the way of getting lost, I ran into Mia Lee Vicino, who works at Letterbox, a friend of mine, and she was also lost. And we didn't know where the fuck we were going. And we were very confused. We're kind of laughing, like, oh, yeah.

And, like, in theory, this is a huge movie, but we're just, like, stuck in the middle of this giant corporate park. And we walk in, and we were, like, 38 seconds late to the movie. And we sit down, and it's a weird screening room with, like, 25 seats, but they're kind of half couches, half lounge chairs. and, you know, that might have been part of the reason why I was a little bit disengaged at the beginning of the film. And then the film ended, and I saw Mia, and we were both just like real mess. I'm really like, fuck. Like, this really hit me hard, you know.

I think there's some very obvious parental parallels. If you have a kid and you see what happens to Hamden in the movie, it's really, really hard to watch. That kid. I mean, and then they also, you know, they literalize the Hamlet's, father's ghost thing with, and they have... So let me use that as an entree to my second screening. So I saw the movie a second time last night at the Rico Paseo in Pasadena. It was me and about 13 other people.

And we're watching the film all the way through and we get to the final 20 minutes of the film. And there's the moment when the ghost emerges and starts speaking to Hamlet. And then the moment when the ghost is leaving the stage and she says, turn around, come back, turn around. And right at that moment, the emergency alarm went off. And everyone had to leave the building. Oh, my God. Now, this was strange. So we went through the emergency exit in the movie theater, and we walked into this sort of back hallway, which was kind of an unfinished basement kind of vibe.

And we went out to find one of the emergency exits to go out into the plaza of the movie theater. And as soon as that door opened, it sounded like there were gunshots. So the person who opened that door ran. And then everyone who was in my movie theater ran out. Now, it wasn't gunshots. It sounded like it was actually maybe ultimately just a truck loading. but because the emergency alarm had gone off, everyone was really freaked out in tents

and we were at the most critical emotional moment of the movie, the people who were coming out of the emergency exit with me in tears. So we go down the other end of the hallway and we go around the exit and we get out into the plaza and then we go back to the lobby of the movie theater. And of course we went into the lobby of the movie theater and the guy who's working there says, oh, sorry, false alarm. So the movie has been like effectively ruined for these people.

And for me, I was like, I have to go home. I'm not going to wait for them to rerun the real. I've already seen this film. I know what's happening in the last five minutes of the movie. But all the other patrons did go back inside and watch the movie. And I was thinking about that

and kind of like a movie's power and how the movie the second time just felt way less effective to me because when that moment happened, it dawned on me how not emotionally crushed and devastated I was in those final 20 minutes. And I was looking around at people who felt the way that I felt in July

when I ran into me afterwards. and I was a mess. And then a second viewing does not make them film better or worse, specifically, rewatchability is not the clearest metric. But I was reflecting on it because I didn't know anything in the story. And so not having read it, I was like, part of what really worked on me was just revelation. Yeah, yeah. It was just understanding what influence this experience had on Shakespeare.

I presumably, you guys can tell me if that's accurate or not if you wrote Hamlet through this experience of loss. Yeah. According to the novel, at least, which again is that, yeah. According to history, his son Hamnet died, he wrote Hamlet. That happens. That's what we know. Yeah.

So I think for me, just for me personally, I think all of those things coming together, the loss of a child, the way that you process, Arthur Grief, the way that this character in particular kind of couldn't find a way to connect with the people he was closest to, but could connect with the artists who could realize his vision. Yeah. All that is fascinating. And then once you've got it, I got it. Yeah.

Interesting. I will say my second viewing also at the. the Regal Paseo, but in the morning and no emergency. Yeah. I was kind of like, it's not going to get me this time. You know, it was like 11 a.m. after the Golden Globes nominations. And I was just like, I got this, I got this.

And even going through the globe scene, I was like, no, they will not. They won't touch me. And once Jesse Buckley reaches her handout and then everybody reaches their hand out, I was like, well, there is something very primal here. Like, I'm gone. I got, got. So I do think. that they locate something very powerful in that last scene.

What I think is really interesting, I love the discussions you guys have had this year about, there are so many movies this year that are about being a parent, right? There's a lot of mom movies, a lot of dad movies. There's something I'm not a parent. I have no plans to become a parent. And there are sometimes those movies that are so focused on parenting that can be slightly alienating to something that hasn't had that experience. And I just don't think that that's true of this movie because they're tapping into something true about grief and true about art that is universal.

I totally agree with that. I did want to talk a little bit about the Max Richter aspect of the film. Dirty pool, honestly. Celebrate composer, there is lots of original music in the film from Richter. The musical cue in that moment when Anius reaches forward and there's this big swell and thrum in the theater and the power of Hamid is being conveyed on the nature of daylight is playing on the soundtrack, which is previously recorded music that we've heard before in films and television shows.

and is a bit of a, considered a bit of a cheat sheet. If you're trying to get... Skeleton keys, sort of. Yes. Yeah. If you're trying to get people to feel things. So you said dirty pool. I did think so.

I love this movie. I wept through that. When that track started playing at this moment where I was already, they had me. I was like, you didn't need to, though. You didn't have to add on the nature of daylight on top of this. But Jesse Buckley said in a, I think it was a THR variety interview, that she was, like, processing the scene. they shot over eight days and she was listening to that track in her car and she was just

sort of like, this is the one. So there was like at least a slightly honest organic way in which it came into the mix. But I, I, I, eight days. I know. Can you imagine? Yeah. But I, how many times did Paul Mest and not to kick himself in like white goo? But like, I think that, um, I think it would have been maybe even stronger to have an original

piece of music there that we could forever identify with just that moment. And when you hear that Max Richter score going forward, we're like, oh, it's the end of Hamnet score. It's going to get me, you know. Is it possible, though, that this becomes what that piece of music is best known for? Because most people don't know that. Most people don't really know this piece of music or wouldn't be able to name it at least or identify who composed it. And there was a part. And I think that maybe dovetails a little bit with a conversation of what this film is going to be and what it is.

I just think a rival sort of owns it. That's what I think. And, you know, a similar... I wish that Arrival had a broader acceptance rate in the world at large. But I think that... It was a successful film, though. Sure. Yeah.

I feel like for the big pick audience, Arrival is like one of the great, like, should have been sort of... A thousand percent for me. It's a manned's favorite Nolan movie, yeah. I am... I... I guess you're right. And I guess...

I guess Villeneuve going on to become, like, a huge deal means that maybe that movie has, like, a little bit more of a place in the legacy books or something. Yeah. But I'm kind of curious what's going to become of this film in particular. Like, a movie like this 30 years ago would make $200 million. Well, that's because Harvey Weinstein would be behind it. And he's not. And so I'm actually, you know, from Telluride, Jesse Buckley was anointed as she's going to win best actress. Right.

I no longer feel that that is certain. and a lot of that has to do with sort of the way the campaign has already been orchestrated. I don't think they figured out a way to talk about this performance. Roseburn coming? Roseburn is so far.

Kicking out her heels, you know what I mean? And so... I don't know, though. I've watched a lot of TikToks of her and Paul Meskell doing absolutely every single charming thing possible. Oh, they are. I mean, they're doing the work, but I just think... Over time.

I hope that's true, and I hope as more and more people watch it. But to that sort of communal viewing experience, I think if you see it in a theater with other people, this movie has you and Jesse has you. Like Jesse makes the case for herself if you see this movie in theater. Yeah. If you watch it on a screener at home,

the middle of the day, if you're an awards voter and you didn't go to the theater, and this is something I always think about with awards. Like, does this hit the same way? If you got bored by the first hour and a half and you're not in it and the ending happens and you're just sort of like, okay, it happened.

Do you know? I'm really not sure. I think part of the reason why, at least from an awards perspective, it has a strong chance to do well, is it is a counterpoint to a lot of the other films that are at the top of the heat, which are very male.

I think it's going to be nominated across the board. I don't doubt that Chloe's going to be nominated. I don't doubt that it's going to be nominated for Best Picture. The mentality I had from an awards point of view, which is not maybe the most useful way to think about anything, but that Jesse Buckley was going to win and that was going to stand for the we're honoring Hamnet with Jesse Buckley winning.

And then one battle is going to take everything else. That was my perception. as well. Right. And I just, the last couple weeks, I've just started wondering if it doesn't feel

as cemented as like the Renee Zellweger out of Telluride narrative did or something like that where it's just sort of like we're running aboard. It was bizarre. To this day,

maybe the single weirdest one since we've been doing the show. To this day, I don't understand how that happened. But she doesn't have like the Olivia Coleman, I can just like talk my way to a win for something like this.

The Mikey Madison, I'm new. Isn't this interesting and exciting? The, I have a long, career and you're awarding me for my long career. She's somewhere in the middle and it's a challenging

campaign and I'm I think she's amazing. She's given some great speeches and she's been awarded in a lot of festivals and I'm pulling for her and I want her to go all the way because I love her and I think she's incredible in this. I don't know. It's interesting that you say that. I

still think it's her all the way down but I to me I feel like weirdly Chase Infinity has as much of a chance to upend that narrative. The Roseburn performance is incredible. We've talked about if I had legs, I'd pick you. That's still a very small movie. No, I agree.

That's a hard movie just to get through to your screener point. I agree. I agree. Whereas I'm not sure if Chase Infinity even is really in a lead actress role in one battle after another, but she's running a very good campaign right now. And she is the Mikey Madison discovery for this year. The only thing about to Joanna's point about if you're sitting at home in the middle of the day, trying to get through your screeners to vote, you can watch 30 minutes of if,

high headlegs, I'd kick you and understand that Rose Byrne is doing amazing things and then turn it off. And I think Jesse Buckley's, yeah, she's walking in the woods. I mean, she's wonderful. I think that, you know, she is your favorite, Sean, but she's a lot of people's, like, secret favorite. I think there are a lot. There's a, like, she's Merrill Streep thing.

Yeah, a lot of people have been waiting to vote for her, I think. She's nominated for the wrong daughter. That's going for her. Yeah, I agree. I think there is, like, a little bit of a collective amongst cinefiles and people in the industry that's just like. She has chosen one energy, and this would be a way to kind of get, almost like get that out of the way early. It's like, let's just be cool with every time she shows up in a movie, she's really great.

Yeah. You know, but she's not like a proper star. That's kind of why I compare her to Harold Street, you know. And she doesn't want to be, you know what I mean? And so that's... I didn't even know that she had a kid. I didn't even know she had a partner. Like, I don't know anything about her is my point.

Like, even though she's somebody who I will always watch in a movie. But I learned it afterwards because she talked about it about making this film and being a mother. But that's one of those things where, like, usually you know a lot about the people that you're really interested in when you host a show like this. Sure. I didn't know anything about her. She was pregnant when she walked on stage at Comic-Con, just not Comic-Con, cinema-con, whatever. Yeah. And I said to you, oh, good for Jesse Buckley.

She's pregnant. She's having a lot of loose men's wear. No, no memory of that. I mean, I just said I'm happy for her. Okay. Is Timothy Shalomey a father? Of many styles. Yes. Of many styles. Yes.

That's really good point. Not possibly. The dad is step-dunk. They made their public debut this week. Sure. I still don't know if those children have. if he's met those children, but different conversation. Me too.

I doubt it. Yeah. Is Tyga the father? No. Isn't it Travis Scott? Sure. Pylee, Jenner, Travis Scott, right? That sounds right.

This is not my area of expertise. Do we want to talk about Hamlet more? No, I'm just kidding. What else do you want to say about Hamden? Anything else? I don't think so. I think I've made the best case I can possibly make for this movie. I think you made a great case for it.

And I think, honestly, if you just watch the last half hour, you know, you might get it. But I don't recommend that be the way that you ingest a piece of cinema. I wouldn't know if you watch just the last hour, though. But I would recommend going to like... When are you recommending people turn it on? Like what scene? No, what scene turns it for you? You have to see Hamnet like alive.

There's a really interesting scene where Hamnet wakes up and he, discovers Judith in bed his sister and she's ill and the camera is sort of very gently moving to the right in that room and she you know Zhao creates this sense of dread in that sequence and it's really

effective and it's very simple what she's doing but you know we already mentioned if we didn't mention Jacoby Jupe like he's incredible as Hamlet for a young boy to be giving a performance like that is amazing and Noah Jupe his brother playing Hamlet is incredible

And he's, there's the, there's the moment of reaching out from the audience, right? Because Agnes is having this personal response to this art and then has sort of swept the audience in with her personal response. And they're reaching out. And Noah Zup, as Hamlet, his moment of being an actor and seeing his impact, even though he doesn't even understand the full context of his impact and is sort of like shock, but he continues the performance. Noah Zup is like a stealth weapon of this movie. I think that not enough people are talking about it. I just think he's really good. But the camera that you're talking about,

Chloe Chau has talked about how Zone of Interest was a huge inspo for the way she framed this movie and that she wanted it to make it feel theatrical. So she's giving you the whole... There's not a ton of close-ups, other than like a few that you've mentioned. There's a lot of things that happen in the center of a wide frame.

Yeah, there's a very memorable shot where you see Will and Hamnet, and Hamnet goes around the corner of the house, but the house is almost like a tree. You're almost seeing like the triangle of the house between the meeting point of the two sides and the kind of the distance between them just going around that corner.

It is, Luke Azal, like you can see him bringing his very particular eye to framing that sort of thing. And the other Chloe Zhao films don't really have that particular visual sensibility. Like the camera is much more flowing. It's much more like in the sequence where Hamlet does die

where it's like very handheld, sort of like moving in and out of focus. Yeah. And it feels like very rough That's a really hard scene to watch emotionally. But from a filmmaking perspective, that feels more like Nomadland to me. So it's this interesting collision of styles where, like, Lerja was trying to evolve somehow.

But she's trying to maintain what makes her her. It's a little, I think part of why I bump on the movie a bit is that it feels like it's kind of like a work in development for her, even though it's so emotionally brutal and direct that to be trying to, like, evolve as a director with material that is this. big is a little difficult to pull off. That's why I think it's correct to honor this movie by giving Jesse Buckley an Oscar

and not, I mean, I there was some early fears in Oscar season that Hamnet was going to come and steal a thunder from one battle or something like that. It doesn't really kill that way right now. It doesn't seem like that way anymore. We've had it at number two in Best Picture Power Rankings but I think it's going to slide down next time.

Yeah, I'm curious. I do wonder because there is the one thing that this will film will speak to in the older Academy. You know, there's still a lot of people. Dwindling. They're dying. Yeah.

They're dying every day. We all die and that's what him is about. That's absolutely right. Okay, let's talk briefly about the secret agent. So, as I said on the episode last week, this is right near the top of my top 10. It's wild. I think this movie is really, really cool. And it does something that, it does a couple of things that I really enjoy.

It's based in the real world. Yeah. but it is using all of this wild genre convention and absurdity. And it's very silly, but it's also deeply sincere and painful. And also a kind of a thrilling crime movie and an assassination conspiracy plot and a movie about corporate malfeasance and also about a dad just trying to get back to his son. It's a lot. It's a two-hour and 40-minute boiling pot of stuff.

it definitely feels like a movie made by a guy who is obsessed with movies. But I'm really into what this filmmaker is trying to do in the way that he's trying to mix everything all together and make it work. And Wagner-Mora, you know, I remember very vividly in 2018, we went to Sundance, and the only actor interview I did at Sundance in person was with Wagner. Just because I'd seen him on Narcos, and I was like, he seems cool. And I don't usually book the show that way. I'm not usually like, we don't talk to actors very much.

Like much more filmmaker focused. But he just kind of had a vibe. And I think this movie uses his like real sense of sincerity and mystery and sexiness really, really well. So I'm a big fan of this movie. Did you? Yeah. No, I finally cut up with it. I'm, I was very into it as well.

I think what surprised me and what recommends it to me is that it is all of the like, you know, very sexy, exciting, like things that you said. thriller. It's government conspiracy. But it is also just like a hangout movie. It is, it is very loose. It is about this world, the northeast part of Brazil, in the 70s, and it has like a real sense of place, like the production design and everything is amazing. But you feel like you know these people. And so, and it is silly. You and Adam Neiman both compared it to one battle after another because of, you know, it's about a dad's and, dads and, you know, political resistance. And I think that that's an apt comparison, but there is also a real Paul Thomas Anderson

like vibe to, you know, it's clear that's where it's feel that comes from and he's like recreating his world with a lot of love and like wry observation and a sense of humor in like a sort of absurdist way about what's going on. So, you know, it's weird to say it was a cool place to spend time because it is about a very dark period in

Brazilian history and is also, as you said, about murder and corruption and loss. But like Donia Sebastiana, is that her name? What a legend. I want to hang out with her forever. I know. I know. What do you think?

I did not love this film, but I think I had the sort of Hamnet experience you guys had, where I love Wagner's performance, and especially, like, there is an element of this story where the ending really underlines, without spoiling it, underlines what an incredible performance this is. It was, I was watching it, and I was like, this is really good, but are we sure about best actor? And then it flets and I was like, oh, exactly. So, like, I was sitting here, I was like, I love Wagner more. I'm never going to be mad that he's going to be nominated for an Oscar perhaps or whatever. But I don't get why it's for this film. And then I saw the ending and I was like, okay, I understand. Yeah, I don't want to, this movie has been even far less seen than Hamnith as far.

So I don't want to spoil the additional devices that the film uses. But it's pretty clever. There's a lot going on here. And I think this movie will not be for everybody for sure. And it is extremely, like, indulgent in its runtime. But I like the hang. Like you said, I liked being around all of these particular characters who kind of find themselves living together in this you know, adopted community of refugees.

So I think it's really cool. I think the One Battle comp is interesting because the thing that I felt coming out of one battle was dazed and amaze at how cohesive a movie that should feel so shambling felt. That's how I felt about one battle. That's not how I feel about this movie. But what that means is that there are sequences in this movie that really, really worked for me. Like when Vagnamora and his wife are at dinner with an absolute asshole.

or, you know, there's just vignettes that work really, really well, but it is so all over the map with its tone and which characters you're following in a given moment that there were some moments where I was checked out, but then there were some moments

where I was really dialed in. Shambling is, it is shambling. Yeah. But, you know, I felt like the carnival scene when the Wagner character just goes into that. I was like, this is great. That seems, you know,

I would like to be a part of that. And the color tone, the like coda chrome sort of like burnt golden coloring is great too. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a quick break and talk about our favorite performances. Okay. And now it's time for a segment brought to you by Coca-Cola. This has been such a special year for actors that we love.

There's something so joyful about watching actors you have a big relationship with at the top of their game. And those moments are even better with a Coca-Cola by your side. So is there a performance from an actor that you have a big relationship? to you want a spotlight here? As we know, I'm an Olivia Coleman diehard. Uh, rider dies since the crown and also maybe other, anyway, she's been in a lot of things I love. And this year, in the United States, we should clarify, she was in Paddington in Peru, um, as a, as a nun borrowing heavily from the sound of music. And this was the first film I ever took my young son to you in a theater. And so my son loves Paddington. I love Olivia Coleman. We got to

go together. He mostly behaved. And I thought she was very funny. It's a very classic, accomplished actor doing silly things in a big budget movie. And it brought me a lot of joy. It's a great pick. I'm glad you mentioned your son. I am a son as well, a son of Ethan Hawke, one of my faves. We had our dad here on the show earlier this year. His performance in Blue Moon is absolutely wonderful, transporting, fascinating portrayal of a composer and writer of music for the stage at the, near the end of his life, truly heartbreaking, something we've never really seen from Hawk before. Nice to see that, you know, there's still moves inside of his bag, some things we haven't seen.

And so he's definitely my pick. And whether it's on the big screen or in a bottle, Joy is always better when it's shared with the people that you love. So refresh your holidays this season with Coca-Cola. So the assignment was 10 performances each. The assignment was not, please predict the top 10 leading performances at the account. Academy Awards this year. I said, maybe one or two of those.

And then the rest let's have a little bit of fun. You like this exercise? Yeah, I love this. Did you just to do this on Little Goldman? I don't know that I ever did this, but I feel like I did it with you guys last year. Did you do it? You did do it with us. Yes, that's right.

I was just making an adjustment that I thought of in the car because we have some overlap. I changed one as well to avoid overlap. And I like the overlap, but, oh, but the, oh, okay. But I made another one just to spread the well. as it were. But I kept a couple of the overlaps because I think consensus is fun. That's fine by me. What was your number one last year? Do you remember?

I don't. I don't. What was my number one? What movies were last year? I don't know. Does anything matter? Oh, Anora won last year. I was thinking about the films at the Oscars last year and how Conclave and Anora and Amelia Perez don't feel like they exist anymore.

Yes. Right? I don't think that'll be true for like a one battle sinners there. Conclave does because the new Pope saved cinema. Okay. Yeah. That was tough how he went into he took over the Pope chair. Yeah. And then he was like, all these filmmakers need to come to Italy and hang out with me

and then Netflix, Ball Wonder Brothers. Okay. And so... What happened there? There is no God. That's what happened. The church isn't going to save us, I guess. God, damn it. Um, who wants to start? I'll start. Great. I like that we did a similar thing.

I like this. Yeah, this is a good pick. I like this one. So I just wanted to highlight Jane Austen wrecked my life, which is a very small movie, French film. Delightful.

Just absolutely. Really delightful. Didn't I make you feel like you were in the 90s? Yes. Felt like a 90s like Nextop Wonderland sort of just like cozy indie film. I absolutely loved it. And the main actress Camille Rutherford,

I had never seen anything. And I just thought she was just like perfect anchor of this. It's, It's not a dorky whimsical Jane Austen movie, but it is about a woman who works in Shakespeare and Co., right, and gets a fellowship to go work on her writing inside of the context of her Jane Austen fandom or whatever. Then there's debate about whether or not Jane Austen

is actually a legitimate writer inside of it, but it's not like take your aunt and have some tea on some Frilly Doyleys kind of movie. It's just like a movie movie about real people trying to be. That's how it felt. But this also is my culture, is indie movies with the words Jane Austen in the title. So it's really, thank you. Thank you for honoring both of us.

I haven't seen this film. Yeah. I should check it out. It's really good. Do you know any of the novels that Jane Austen wrote? Pop quiz? Can you name all six of them? Go.

Emma? Yeah. Yeah. Sense and sensibility? Correct. Persuasion? Yep. You got three.

I think that's probably all. Okay, you're missing one really big one. The biggest one. The biggest one. Joe Wright. Pride and Prejudice. Yeah, sure. Okay.

Those are all the ones that have film adaptations. And then the last two are locations. Yes. One is like, Thackeray Cottage. Correct. Sure. I don't know the other two. That was pretty good.

Mansfield Park. And North Angerabarab. Yeah. Manseal Park I've seen. Wonderful. Yes. Starring Francis O'Connor, who I love. What's the sixth one?

North Angerabee. Probably like the least known. I don't know that one. Her least. Four out of six, not bad. It's, sure. Need to be prompted for Pride and Prejudice is a little tough, but other than that, I'm... So, four out of six is one of, like, I didn't know there was going to be a test on this episode, okay?

And it wasn't Shakespeare. How dare you? Amanda, number 10. Sure. I've cheated, and I have three. It's a collection of performances under the umbrella of really accomplished actors having fun with some budgets. And it is Rosamine Pike, and now you see me, now you don't. Coleman Domingo and the Running Man and Tobias Menzies and F1.

Yes. This is the villain corridor. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I like it. Coleman Domingo and the Running Man was just like, he's awesome. So good. This is a great tradition in history when our great, great actors, many of whom have British accents, show up just to be bad, bad guys in a movie.

It is, it is a great tradition. It's also a great tradition of I need to add a wing to my home. Yeah. You know, I need a cool million. I need a boat. Yeah. And I hope Thomas Menzzi's. enjoys his boat.

I do too. Do you think he got a smaller dingy for Wicked for Good to go with his The Running Man boat? I hope so. All three of these characters are utterly preposterousous. They make no sense. They're very enjoyable. They're very charismatic in their own way.

They all have the moment also where they get the one scene where they're like, oh, I see why you said yes to this. Yeah, I agree. Or in Rosamond Pike's the accent. Did you see me now you don't? Guess what I didn't. Can I tell you who should?

She plays. Please. She plays a South African diamond princess. Oh, no. Yes, she does. And she is going for the accent. Okay. On on scale of like Leo and Blood Diamond to an actual person from South Africa, where are.

Leo and Blood Diamond. Shh. But like, I would recommend it just for that. But like from the British accent to Leo and Weather, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just all over the map.

Okay. My number 10 is also themed. It's a comic relief inside of comedies. the funniest parts of a movie that I thought was pretty funny. Connor O'Malley in Friendship, my beloved, which is truly the funniest person on Earth, best known for his viral videos and work writing on late-night television shows, but entering the garage and berating Tim Robinson is one of my favorite things.

Also, I think we should still be in Afghanistan, probably the funniest line in the movie. And then, Dan Houston, I was a little bit more mixed on the naked gun. I really wanted to love the naked gun. but everything Danny Houston did it's very similar to the Rosamond Pike performance where I'm like this motherfucker committed to the naked gun He's went all in

He's really doing it and delivering absurd lines He's also very funny opposite Pamela Anderson Whose fake name escapes me is like It's like Angela Spaghetti and Meatballs And he keeps calling her by her full name Throughout the entire movie But I I these two probably made me laugh

More than anybody short of Leo in one battle So that's my number 10 Okay number nine Joanna This is the award for just playing himself, but he's always welcome. It's Michael Sarah and the Phoenician scheme and The Running Man. Just when he shows up on The Running Man, my interest just went through the roof and I just had the best time in the minutes that he is there in that movie. Do you think the movie is better if it's Michael Sarah and the Glenn Powell role? Yes.

Have you considered that? I kind of do. Yeah. I kind of do. With wigs and accents. Yeah. Doing bits. With thick mustaches and everything.

A little bit less punching and kicking. Yeah. I had literally no idea what was happening when Michael Sarah was on screen. I was laughing, but I did not understand. He was the son of a dissident who had created a series of traps in his house in the event that the nation state came to a track. It was the home alone sequence. I'm not saying he was the problem. His father was a police officer who left the force.

Zeeves are involved. And he became a hot dog vendor as a show of resistance to the encroaching media state-funded. hits the button. I didn't know why he was hitting the button. I was like, helping the Super Soaker. He wanted to kill a bunch of guys. Yeah, I think he just let the chaos take over, right? You can explain this as many times as you want.

I'm not never going to like get it. Huge pod for the running man so far. Yeah. Two performances out of the movie. You never would have guessed that. A movie that I didn't particularly enjoy. And then the Phoenician scheme, Michael Sarah, was born to be in this role in a Wes Anderson film.

He's wonderful. His transformation from. The bug tutor to the spy is magic shit. He's the Nile of Michael Sarah. Really good. Great pick. Okay. Amanda number nine.

This was originally two people, but then I cut it down to one because of overlap. Okay. Jack Wade in Companion, which I think Companion is like the, I just wanted to get it in on one of our lists. You'll see that I did the same. Well, that's why I took the other person off. It's like very, very charming genre movie that totally works. He is, I. It hangs on two performances, but he communicates the right amount of pathos and smarm, I would say.

And he had like a little run. But this is the movie when I was like, oh, wow, you are both Meg Ryan incarnate and your own person. And Dennis Quaid, yeah. Smarmingness is, you know, a little bit. And I was like, this is good for him. Yeah. Are you a Novakane fan or? I saw it.

Yeah. He was fine in it. Yeah. I was there. I thought I was in the theater Did you see Nova Kane? I did. What did you think?

I liked it. But I saw it like at home on streaming so like low, it didn't feel like a real movie movie to me. If you remove all the Nepo baby stuff from Jack Quaid, he just kind of does look like a guy who should be in a movie. Like he seems like a guy who should be in a movie in 1988 or 1968. Like he just, he can hold a movie together and that is not to be under real. I think he's very good in that.

I think once he's done with The Boys, I'm interested to see what happens to his film in. I didn't know he was on the boys. He's like the main character. Okay. Well, speaking of new wings on your house. I just swapped this name in to avoid some overlap with you. But I've just put Chase Infinity from one battle after another, which is pretty revelatory. And I think we're overlooking it now because she's like, whatever, like the brand ambassador for what, like Louis Vuitton or something?

She's about to be like very famous. Chanel. Chanel, thank you. Yeah, which is big because that's their, it's back. Great. I'm excited for that. I would love to be a brand ambassador for Chanel. Okay.

It's Sophia Coppola, Chase Infinity. Chanel are you listening? Amanda's ready. They're not because they haven't. at me any of the stuff. Yes. But yeah, I'm excited for her. Maybe the people of Chanel are accused Hammondit fans

and they're listening to this episode. I think Chanel also dressed Tiana Taylor for a recent event. So they're on the one battle team, which is cool. Chase Infinity coming from the worst plot twist in a television show that I've seen in the last couple years. Literally the center of the worst plot twist.

The twist herself to this tremendous performance is just a real comeback. It's pretty amazing. And I think not just being able to hold her, her own, but the movie effectively becoming hers. Like, you were around, it's Louis Vuitton. Yeah, I'm sorry. And then it was Tiana Taylor, who was Chanel. I wish that she were

Chanel instead. Yeah. Chanel, Amanda's still interested. I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think she's terrific in this movie and it's very, it's always exciting when a new person arrives and can take a movie away from Sean Penn and Benio del Toro

and Leonardo DiCaprio and And, you know, Alan Siegel was telling him, he just interviewed James Cameron about the new avatar film, and he's publishing a piece soon. And he shared some thoughts about Chase Infinity's performance and what he responded to, which I'll, I assume is going in the story that Alan is writing. Okay. But a strong woman who knows how to wield a gun is something that Jim Cameron has explored before. That's some experience with it. And he had nice things to say about her work, too. Oh, great.

Okay. Number eight, Joanna. So this is a dual award. So Freaky Tales, a Bowden and Fleck joint that came out this year, set in Oakland in the 80s and should have been sort of for me with Petro Pascal and Ben Mendelssohn. If you want to talk about Shaggy, this is like one of the shaggier films this year. It's just like really mixed. But there is a vignette inside of it with Normani and Dominique Thorn who play these girls who engage in this rap battle. and it's just, I loved it.

Petra Pescal is here, Ben Meadows in it here. Two of my favorite most charismatic people. Tom Hanks is there. They're not holding it down. But Dominic Thorne and Normani are, and they were just really, really fun. And just like, looking at them standing outside Grand Lake Theater, which is like my like theater palace in Oakland was just really, really fun. I'm glad you mentioned it.

We didn't even talk about this movie this year. I think it was a Sundance 24 film and then it got a release later this year. I don't think it's very successful. I also enjoyed Jay Ellis, though, as Sleepy Floyd in the final third of the movie. I thought he was very fun, too. He gets to be like a kung fu fighting defeater of home invaders.

It's like, it's an entertaining enough movie that doesn't really work. Okay. Number eight, Amanda. Robert Pattinson in Mickey 17. This movie didn't totally work for me, but he did. He has to do a lot.

And I, the biggest swing. It's the biggest voice swing outside of resume. I find this man incredibly watchable. That's a good point. It's maybe the biggest swing because it doesn't land quite like Rosamond Pikes does. I find this man very watchable, as do many people, because he is Batman. But I like that he did it. I like his weird hot movie star vibe.

I like that there are directors who still want to let him be really weird, but not too weird. There was a note to dial the voice back slightly, right? From director Bong. That's the dial back. I think that we did, in fact, see the dialed back version. Anyway, I think it's cool when movie stars try things. I fully agree. I like the way that he is navigating his career.

Did you guys watch the teaser for the drama? No, because I don't want any spoilers. I saw the engagement announcement, though, in the Boston Globe. Yes, that was a very clever bit of marketing. Yeah, the drama. Very excited about that. I'm excited about it, but I was really excited about Mickey 17 as well. Fair point.

Christopher Borgley's last movie was Dream Scenario, and the drama stars Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. It's a pretty big deal coming in April. My number eight is Inga Ipst, Dr. Lilius, the Norwegian actress who plays Renata Renzwe's sister in sentimental value. A film that I'm going to say it once more. I really like that movie a lot, and I will not be talked down. I think it's simultaneously very funny and absolutely devastating. I think she's wonderful in it.

Okay. Don't you think she's going to be nominated? I do think she will be nominated. I do. When I saw the movie, I thought she would win. And now I feel like Tiana Taylor is a freight train in that category, which is surprising to me. But I think she's fantastic. And the scene in particular that I love the most is when Stellans Garsgaard's character, her father, goes to visit her in her apartment so that he can meet up with her son and ask him to participate in the movie that he's going to make. And she becomes very upset and remembers the feelings that she had when they made a movie together when she was a young. girl and that feeling of abandonment when he left and did not spend any time with her after that incredibly powerful experience when she was a young kid. Not unlike some of the Hamlet experience in the movie. And, you know, this is a movie with some very celebrated actors. And I'd never seen this actress before. And I thought she was by far the most real person in the

movie. And very, very special. So that's number eight. Number seven, Joe. I think a theme of my list is sort of like highlighting great performances in movies that didn't work for me. So Kiss of the Spider Woman, a movie that I didn't think was going to hit, didn't really hit for me. But Tonatua, who plays sort of the main character, despite what Jennifer Lopez would have you believe, of this film, Luis Molina is, I thought was fantastic. And he's in the role that William Hurt played in the original film version. There's been, you know, a musical stage version. This is the musical movie version.

and he has to narrate basically the entire movie and he is incredibly handsome, incredibly charismatic. I had seen the other version of Kisses Spider Woman years ago, but I rewatched it after I watched this version and watching William Hurt do a sort of like swishy-queenie, like really over-the-top version of this character and then watching this queer man embody this character. I just thought this was like a really, really good intro

to a performer that I wasn't very familiar with. This has been on my list and I still haven't watched. I've kind of been dreading watching because I know it's like well over two hours and not a huge Bill Condon fan and it's not gotten very good reviews. But I will watch it

and in part because of the performance that you're citing, which apparently is quite good. Deagaluna is also here. Deagaluna is one of my favorite performers is just completely overshadowed by this guy. Interesting. So, yeah. Okay.

Number seven. Kiki Palmer and Siza, one of them days. Which I meant to include on honorable mentions of our best movies of the year and forgot to. Just a really delightful comedy. And there's, you know, I think like the cute version of this list would just be putting Sizz on it because this is sort of a breakout comedic star and she's really very funny in this. But the chemistry that she has with Kiki Palmer, who's so charming and is like driving the film is very special.

They're great together. This is a delightful movie. I agree. I would love it if it was sort of like a. The Road to Bob Hope style, sort of where they just like did a new one of these every two years, you know? Yeah, that would be really fun. That would be great.

Because they're really, they're really fantastic together. Siza, who knew? Who knew? Yeah. It's the, it's not easy. Being a comic actress after, like, does this I have training as an actor? I don't know. She's just a fun hang.

Kiki Pomer, we know. Like, we knew about it. We knew she could do that. Anyway, okay, number seven for me is Josh O'Connor. Just Josh O'Connor, just writ large. Yeah. Just everything Joshua. Connor's doing that.

This may come up again. That includes rebuilding. That includes the mastermind. That includes Wake Up Dead Man. It even includes a history of sound film I didn't really care for that much, but that I think he's good enough in. I'll just underline rebuilding because we haven't had a lot of time to talk about it, but that's just the movie that I thought was very affecting, very quiet.

All three of these kind of core performances are very different. They are all fairly quiet. And O'Connor has to listen a lot in these movies while also being inside of his own kind of narcissism. And it's so different because my wife just finished watching Wake Up Dead Man when she was like she didn't love it and she didn't love it in part because she felt like Joshua Conner didn't get to be sexy, right?

And Challenger, she was like, this fucking dirt bag. This is where they're appealing, you know? And to me that was like a testimony of his greatness, you know, like that he can kind of... She just wasn't watching me to Churro all day long. that's her preference she enjoyed that um as did i frankly yeah who didn't but his range his range is pretty cool to watch right now and it's always fun when just by randomness of the schedule a guy gets to be in four movies at one time it's very increasingly uncommon but he's been doing multiple movies for the last

couple years he's just really running it and we know he's now going to be in the spillberg film which is exciting okay joe number six um odessa as young for marty supreme oh i had this on and took it off Yeah. Good one. It's great. Pamela Adlin has graced us with some great performers, both out of her show and out of her loins. And I thought she was fantastic in Marty Supreme, a movie that I don't think I'm as high on as you guys are. But I thought she was just, like, really, really electric as Marty's, like, childhood friend who gets involved in several of the capers along the way.

And it is very important because of the decisions that a lot of characters make in this movie, it is very important that you are. emotionally with her through some of her decisions, and I just found her really appealing, really funny, really sexy, really, all these things and just like absolutely mesmerizing. This is me right now learning that she's Pamela Adlon's daughter. I had no idea, which is a credit to her. She's great. Yeah, she's fantastic in this movie. That character is very fun as well.

Great pick, number six, Amanda. So I, this is my original number six, then I changed it because you had changed your list because of your list, but then you changed your, so I changed it back. So we're going with Tom Burke and BlackBag, which I think deserves its own number six. BlackBag, another movie that we all really enjoyed, but I think didn't make any of like the top, the top tens, just because it's, I mean, I don't want to diminish Steven Soderberg in his bag making like a spy dinner party thriller just for fun. But that is its own thing now, you know? Let us not take it for granted.

I agree. Tom Burke is up against Cape Lanchett, Michael Fastbender, like, just Marissa Abbella, really, quite literally. Please. And he is so funny and commanding. And the lie detector scene in particular with him, you know, he's the right amount of charming and smooth and amused and also what the hell are we doing. that the film needs because everybody else is

on one of those polls and I guess he is sort of the audience stand in the movie but that's a hard thing to be in a Soderberg film where you're they're poking everyone so I just starts as the villain

and evolves into something way different and you can never totally read him it's just like him in the souvenir where you're like what's so I mean he's such a great actor yeah he is a good actor you know he shows up in anything he shows up in Mank Furiosa that's right you know

And you're sort of like, oh, wow, is this a great movie? And then he's gone. You're like, no. Precisely. Okay, what is my number six? Let's peel back to my list. Oh, yeah, Sophie Thatcher from Companion, who you know from your days covering yellow jackets

and who has also been having a big couple of years and I think it's been located. Book of Bova Federation. Didn't see that one. I also enjoyed her in Heretic last year. I enjoyed her in The Buggy Man, which was not successful, but she was very good in it. And she's, you know, there's a little bit of Jamie

Lee Curtis, I would say, and Sophie Thatcher. Interesting. Tell me why. Well, very strong, but very vulnerable. Very smart, very kind of fast talking, but also is often in danger. And that's like a scream queen kind of persona. You know, she's kind of pursuing

it. If you look at the projects that she's getting cast, and this movie is interesting because it's kind of like Lars and the Real Girl meets Terminator. And that's a clever idea for a movie. I agree. with you, I think this is just a really fun down the middle, you know, three star, six out of ten, like had a nice, really nice time watching. Clebers, you know? I went, huh, that's good, many times. And I, she, just like Jack Quaid, I'm like, just more movies with her. That would be great. If we could just get one of these a year with her, that would be exciting.

She's definitely the performer out of Yellow Jackets who was making, like, the smartest choices, book of Boba Fett aside, which was terrible. But, like, she's making really smart choices. Not on Ella Pernell? Ella Pernell is great, but she's stuck in Fallout Land for a little bit, so we'll see when she goes. So it's a book about Boba Fett? It's a, it's a, don't worry about it, honestly. It's a Jonathan Franzen novel? I would prefer you go to the beach and get Sunbird and read a novel and kiss people and do all the other things that you want to do. Okay, Joe, number five.

Jessica Connor, have you heard of him? Oh, my gosh. Wake up Dead Man. Oh, my gosh. It's fine. I think you guys are under reading him, as you'll see as we continue this podcast. So specifically for Wake Up Dead Man. Correct.

I mean. Did you like Wake Up Dead Man? I did medium. Okay. I thought in terms of the Knives Out franchise has failed to do what the first one did, which is make a meal out of every single, like, there's so many wasted people and wake up dead man. There's so many people where you're like, why is Andrew Scott here? Like what you said were getting out of him.

I loved what Brolin did in this movie. But Josh O'Connor is actually having like a soulful journey inside of a Knives Out movie and a soulful journey that impacts Daniel Craig in a meaningful way. And so I found it, it added, it's not my favorite Knives Out movie. I liked it better than two. But it is the sort of the one I will be thinking about the longest, I think, because there's some real interesting things about faith and community and all kinds of things wrapped up inside of Joshua Conner's performance.

This episode was supposed to be our Wake Up Dead Man episode. That will be on Monday. Right. So we will get into it then. This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by State Farm. Having people in your corner to help you makes all the difference. For example, I'm usually loath to trust Sean and his movie recommendations, but after many months of him waxing rhapsodic about train dreams,

I finally watched it and I have to be honest. He was right. It was wonderful. And like those people, State Farm is there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need. Go online at StateFarm.com or use the award-winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, Amanda, number five. Rebecca Ferguson, House of Dynamite. Tracy, let's, if you're listening, I declared you ineligible because of an anti-corruption stance that we're taking here on the big picture.

Are we? I can't say the same. But Chanel, if you're listening. But Chanel, they're making Charvet shirts. Do you know how much they cost? I don't. I don't have the budget for that. Anyway.

I liked this movie more than Sean did, and I think what I really liked about it was the first third, which is the Rebecca Ferguson. Definitely the best. You know, yet another mom on screen just trying to do her best. And the world is making it quite literally impossible, and the ramifications are quite bad. And again, I felt pretty nauseous watching this. But I think that she is, it's a very unflaccount. She sets the stakes like so high in this movie that I think much of it can't live up to it, but she's very good. Yeah.

She is very good. Some notes on her accent. Not really sure what state in the United States she's from. What do you think? Minnesota. Tennessee? Maybe she's an army brat moved around a lot. Yeah, definitely.

That's her backstory. I like her quite a bit. My number five is Mary Mofshari, who plays Shiva and it was just an accident, the Jafar Panahi film, and she plays a photographer and a woman who was engaged in the same capture and torture that the lead character in the film undergoes. I feel that this is the best written character in the movie and the best performance in the movie, the character who most clearly represents the rage and frustration and determination to find out the truth and to be to find justice but also to put the past in the

past and the way that those two ideas um are sometimes in conflict with each other and this is an actress I haven't seen before and she is absolutely incredible and um she had to perform as all the performers did in secret this movie was made in secret so the Iranian government did not become aware of it and she has felt the most like a real person and this thriller that is like sometimes absurd and very funny. She felt like the person who was engaged in the deepest pain in the story. Okay. Number four.

Oh, this is me. So, Nouvelle Vogue, which is the link-letter film that I liked most this year. Zoe Deutsch is the sort of like face of this movie because she is a recognizable actor and she speaks English. But I think the revelations of this movie were

Guillain Marbeck and Aubrey Dillon as Jean-Luc Goddard and Jean-Paul Belmondo, respectively. These are guys who have never acted before. And I just thought they were fantastic, especially Guillemarbeck, was, as Jean-Luick Godard was just, like, eccentric, sexy, like, just captivating intellectual but capricious and just like that pain in the ass that you understand why people put up with because when he is. cooking, he is cooking. And I just thought he was essential that he works in this film. And I thought he was so, so good. And I was just really shocked to learn that he had never acted. Yeah, that is really surprising. Yeah. They are both, like, spitting images of the two characters that they're playing to, which is presumably why they were cast. But I think later, man, needs to know what he's doing with actors. Okay. Did you guys, did you guys like Nevovobovag or you were not?

That was fine. Charmed. Yeah. But he, that performance, he is annoying and an irresistible way that I think is like essential to the to the movie and also I mean I was just going to say recognizable like it's just like I mean how many times have I been you know faced with that annoying irresistible syneful yes could we build a podcast around up when are you going to make your movie Sean oh certainly never um okay number four number four for you this is the the first names that I thought of when confronted with this spreadsheet is incredible assignment for performances. Tremel Tillman and Katie O'Brien, Mission Impossible,

the final reckoning. These are great picks. Listen, this movie, we can say it now. We've, you know, we're several months from our emotional experience. It just doesn't work. I rewatched it on the plane, which makes me happy. I feel like you've had a moment of clarity. Listen, I watched it on the plane on Thanksgiving because I could watch it without sound

because I have, you know, dealing with the children. And I texted Sean from the plane. I paid 30 bucks for Wi-Fi to text Sean to be like, yo, what was happening in this movie? What a mess. But then Tremel Tillman and Katie O'Brien show up. And I have pictures on my phone that I took of the screen being like my friends are here. And just when they come on the screen, they're the only people who understand what the movie is supposed to be and are like bringing some flair to it and are also looking at Tom Cruise in the way that I think, should look at Tom Cruise after he's jumped

into the sea and been rescued by divers. What does that look? What does that look like? I can't. You missed it. She kind of went for it. It's like I, you know, and he's like framed, Tremel Tollman is like framed in the door just so,

being like, mm-hmm. He's like, you must be out of your mind. Really, really great moments of levity in a film that is just way, way, way, way, to tie it up in itself. If all of the characters had been able to channel this, it could have been at least a good movie.

Maybe? No, I don't know. Have you also had a Final Reckoning with Mission Impossible Final Reckon? I said it on the pod that we did. It's the heartbreak of the year for me. I mean, I love the Mission Impossible movies, and the biggest testimony to the heartbreak is the fact that I've rewatched every Mission Impossible movie

at least five times, and I've only seen this movie once. In fact, you went to go see it with Jack the second time before we recorded. I couldn't make that second record. I think maybe the episode that we did is slightly incoherent because I couldn't remember a lot from the first screening But that's part of the that was part of the issue is the movie is kind of hard to understand because the script is such a mess and it's devastating I love this franchise. I really believe in Macquarie as a writer and director and I think the movie stinks. So it sucks But they're great and I agree with these picks. They're a lot of fun and there's two great action sequences in the movie and everything else is kind of risible

Okay. Number four for me. What is it? What did I write time? Oh yeah, I'm proud of this Asap Rocky in highest to lowest and Archie Medeque and Lurker are playing kind of the same role in reverse. They're both playing musicians, one aspiring, one accomplished. One is playing a young musician who is kind of looking up to someone who's reached a higher status of success in the music industry in the case of Asap Rocky's character who's a rapper who kidnaps his, you know, idols, son's best friend, accidentally. leading to this, you know, intrigue throughout New York City. Archie Medeckway plays a kind of like somewhere between Drake and Dijon style, L.A., hipster, hip hop and R&B star, um, whom a admirer slash stalker enters the orbit of and eventually becomes grows closer and closer to until he grows too close. Lurker has not really been seen that much. Um, I think it's one of the coolest debuts of the year.

Archie Medeke, I thought was absolutely terrible in Saltburn. Like, I was like one of my least favorite performances of that year. And I think he's very, very good. Like, it's a really well-observed performance about what a person with power in a small room can do. And ASAP, man, he's just pure charisma. You know, the sequence when he and Denzel are kind of wrapping back and forth at each other. I know a lot of people thought that movie was kind of a mess. But them on screen, I thought, were just fantastic.

And he really holding his own against one of the very best. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was pretty impressive. Okay, number three. Wait, can I just let you know. know that Aesap Rackby is also a Chanel ambassador. That's great. Yeah, newly named.

You keep making it sound like you belong amongst them. You don't think, when you think Aesab Racki, you don't think Anna Manna. I'm tracking it. Okay, noted. He was also very good, and if I had legs, I'd kick you. He was. He was very good in that. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Joe number three. Dylan O'Brien, twinless. I loved twinless. Like sort of Jane Austen wrecked my life and another movie I'm going to talk about in my number two. There were a lot of little films that I really, really loved this year. Twinless, I thought, was just extremely watchable. Dylan O'Brien is playing a dual role and sort of similar to some other things that we've

talked about inside of this very podcast, like you don't appreciate how good one role is until you see the second role. And then you're like, wow, he's doing two very different things, very convincingly. And they really just sort of compliment and highlight each other. And, you know, he's like a slacker, extremely straight dude. and then he's just like a really kind of hilariously mean gay dude and really, really embodies both. And the twin list, the premise of this movie is one of the twins has died.

And when he shows up, which is a good way into the movie, you understand why the loss of him was such a big deal for the characters around him because he is so electric. And I just love, I really think Dylan O'Brien, like Jack Quaid, be in a lot of movies and, you know, his career has come and gone due to sort of like some, you know, injuries in his career, so like that. But I just think he's always really good. And I would like to see him in a leading role man. I didn't like this movie at all, but I thought he was fantastic in it and is by far the best part of it. And he's also very good

in Saturday night as Dan Aykroyd, which is a very odd part for him to be playing, but he's terrific in that as well. Okay. Number three, Amanda. In his rifle place at number three on this list is Josh O'Connor for Wake Up Deadman, the Mastermind, and all of the promotional materials that he's been doing specifically for History of Sound and Wake Up Dead Man. He and, like, Paul Meskell did a lot of great work together off screen or on smaller screens. I feel like Paul Meskell burned a lot of his tolerance for the gamification of the press tour on History of Sound. And so now he's at him and he's like, I already did this this year.

Sure. I got to do two truths and a lie again. But he and Josh O'Connor have real chemistry. Did you see the one? And I think Josh O'Connor is bringing out a lot of his natural charm. Did you see the red carpet poses? Did you see the one? Yes, I saw it. Yeah, it's a really good one.

See? Did you see the one? Yes, I saw it. I saw. And but now he's like doing ASMR with Andrew Scott for Wake Up Deadman. Anyway, we'll talk more about Wake Up Deadman. I was also, I'm not going to dislike it, but I was mixed on it. But I thought he was an absolute delight.

And in addition to, like, the soulfulness that you're talking about, which he brings to every performance, including the mastermind. He's quite funny. He's very funny. And he and Daniel Craig have a real vibe. And my feedback for Wake Up Dead Man is, like, please make Josh O'Connor a current character in the Knives Out franchise. Absolutely. You know, like we need a buddy comedy.

But so I think he's wonderful. I think he's really, really funny. And there is something charming about. just everyone clearly feels the same way and like he's in four movies he's in every single TikTok like people are bringing him you know ratatooie gifts on the red carpet we all are just kind of like oh that guy I'm so glad to see him it's nice to have one of those I was recently served the video of him during a vanity fair shoot where he's with sidney Sweeney and daniel deadweiler and they're chit chatting about their favorite shows and he starts talking about um

how much he loves his gardening television show and which I wish I could remember the name of it, but it's very adorable little Joshua Connor voice how he likes to just sit down watch a man take care of flowers that gives him a great sense of peace. Can I share one quick thing about Wake Up Dead Man since I will, I won't have the honor of talking to you guys about it in full. I watch it on a

award screener. Those things are captioned. They're usually captioned very well because these are award screeners. At one point, Daniel Craig says telling the truth can be a bitter um. That was good. They The close captioning said,

Telling the truth can be a belly rub. That's what the close captioning said. I was like, wow, he defeated them with his accent. And we rewound it like five times. I was like, he said bitter herb, right? Not belly rug. Really got the meaning role there too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, my number three is my girl, Amanda Seifred, in the Testament of Anne Lee. Yeah, incredible. So good. I got to see this movie again. She's fucking nailing this. You know, obviously, I haven't seen the Mamma Mia film. It's not aware of her ability to sing.

Or Les Miserab. Or I have not seen La Miz either. We've really? I've never seen Le Mism Rump. No. I need the Amanda Seifred Oscar Narm to come through. One, because she deserves it. Yeah.

Number two, because then Amanda Seifred's singing programming for Sean is going to be incredible in 2020. She'd be. That would be interesting. Have you seen her sing Joni Mitchell on The Tonight Show? Well, yes. In fact, that was one of the most impactful things that happened in 2024. And I shared that video on the internet and I said, God damn it, make this happen. What is the instrument that she's playing?

The lap instrument. Dulsamer, I think. Dulsomer, yeah. Incredible shit. She's amazing in this movie. This movie is ridiculous in a good way. It's a very over-the-top fantastical portrayal of a real-life religious movement

and that breaks into fits of song at various intervals. And her commitment is why the movie works. I think if she's not working in this movie, then you don't buy it because she is the sort of religious leader slash cult figure at the center of this. new movement. It's Mona Fastfold's new movie, the co-writer and The Brutalist

and partner Brady Corbe, those two movies together, the ways in which they're deadly serious and the ways in which they're hilarious are fascinating to me. They're very much twinned. And we'll talk about it more in January when more people get a chance to see it.

Okay. Number two, Joe. Newly minted Golden Globe nominee, Eva Victor. This is my favorite moment of the Golden Globes announcement that Eva Victor got nominated for Sorry Baby. I loved Sorry, baby. This is her project, right? She wrote, directed and starred in this. This is a tough

film to get your arms around, I think, and a tough film to land because it is dealing with something incredibly serious in a oftentimes hilarious, oftentimes absurd, and then oftentimes devastating way. And I think she hits all of those notes. And it's not something that I thought the Globes was going to give any attention to. And it really, really made me happy. I thought this was such a, like, a couple other names on my list, like a really important announcement of someone whose work I am going to be following, I mean, I was aware of her on, like, TikTok and stuff like that, but just I think everything that she makes, I'm going to be interested in checking it out going forward.

Great pick. I like this movie a lot, too. Okay. Number two, Amanda. So, when we were making these lists, or our pre-chat, we decided that two and one would be, like, our serious ones or the ones... Like a bigger actually. Yeah, like a lead performance.

Sure, or, you know, the awards, one still with awards chances, as opposed to, with respect to Tremelt Tillman and Katie O'Brien, like the fun picks. Right. Right. So I'm grouping my two moms together here, Rose Byrne and Jennifer Lawrence, Rose Byrne, and if I had legs, I'd kick you, and Jennifer Lawrence in Die My Love. These are two of my favorite movies of the year. We talked about them on the top five episode, and it has been a year of moms and dads. And I think that these are the performances that I saw myself the most in because they are white women of similar to my age.

So it's really, you know, that's not surprising. You're saying you do see color when you look at women. Well, no, I was just, you know, I also really, I did also see myself in Tiana Taylor's one battle after another. We don't have any one battle after another. Oh, we do? Yeah. Oh, Jason Finney.

Right. But to your point, I do think that she's going to win supporting actress. and I definitely think she'll be nominated. So I was, you know, and I guess Rose Byrne is in the fight. I don't think Jennifer Lawrence is going to be nominated. Lead actress, you mean. Lead actress. You were talking about Tiana Tailed. I was supporting.

And that is a performance of motherhood that I also really related to, although we have some significant differences, not just the color of our skin, but also, you know, our revolutionary involvement. Yeah. You are even more violent. Sure, that's right. But I think Rose Byrne will make it in. I don't know if Jennifer Lawrence will make it in for dime I love.

because it's a pretty crowded year and that movie has been overlooked or underseen. But I thought they were both great. And to the Jesse Buckley point, like very raw performances in different ways that got different emotions out of me, but that I recognize. So it's like still very human.

So shout out to both of them. Great pick. I just realized I can double up in my next one. So my next pick is Li Bing Hun, who people may know from I Saw the Devil or Squid Game. He gave two performances this year. The first performance that he'll probably be most recognized for us as working no other choice,

the new Park Chan Wook movie, which was my third favorite movie of the year and is an absolute masterclass in satire and action storytelling. The other one is K-pop Demon Hunters. And I remember vividly Watching K-pop Demon Hunters for the first time And seeing his name in the credits And turning to my 4-year-old

And telling her how excited I was about this And she could not have given less of a fuck And the part that he plays I want to make sure I get the actual character down He plays in this in K-pop Demon Hunters We're like demon Yeah, like the lead demon Like the massive like mountain deer

and demon, which is kind of an interesting use of Libyan Hun. I had to spend so much time covering Squid Game the last year in a way that was really tough for me, actually, and he's really good in a show that had a really bad second season, second and third season. I heard his voice in K-Bah demon. I was like, oh, my God, he's here. He's incredible. But he has a really tall task and no other choice.

He has to be funny. He has to be desperate. He has to be sad. He has to be violent. He has to be crazed. He has to be, you know, my favorite scene in that movie without spoiling anything is when he goes in for a job interview and the sunlight is beaming into his eyes. And he's trying to focus and trying to nail the interview and not say the wrong thing that his friend has told him not to say and make sure that he presents himself in a way that he's an appealing job applicant. We've all been there.

It's a tough spot. He's very funny and very discomforting in that moment. It's a very arch movie, but he still has to be a real human in it. Totally. Yeah. Okay, number one. Jesse Buckley, Amnett? I just, I'll add her to your two moms and say, great year for moms who are going through it.

And I already said everything I need to say about her. I just think she's tremendous. And I considered not putting her number one because I knew we would have talked about her for a while, but honestly, I just want to cement how I feel about her performance. Great pick. Number one. We share number one. Yeah. It's Timmy.

We share our number one with Timothy Chalemay himself, who is out here on the trail, self-confident, much like Marnie Supreme. I, you know, having seen the film, I am wondering how method he's being right now on his promo tour, but... Well, he did something really interesting. He went on the podcast, What Do You Want to Talk About? Are you familiar with that podcast? Yeah, I listen to it every morning. Okay. It's hosted by Cody Rhodes, WWE Superstar.

Okay. And their conversation was all about professional wrestling and his relationship to professional. professional wrestling. I don't know what Timmy's cooking, but he's right inside my brain right now. Like, he is literally talking about the intersection between sports and entertainment that is a theme of Marty Supreme. Yeah. That is the definition of professional wrestling. And that it is something that I have often cited while talking about people like The Rock and the way that wrestlers are more well suited to converting to movies than any other athletic figure because being able to sell emotion is a lot of.

is a real challenge. And him, like, knowing the nitty-gritty about wrestling in a certain era and talking shop with Cody Rhodes, who's a world-class superstar, just great shit. Marty is amazing. It's so good. I know you're a little more mixed on it. That's good. And, yeah, I think starting in that moment when he gave the sex speech all the way up until

this moment, I do think he's been doing kind of a method thing. Do you—how do you feel about my theory that while he's doing his utmost to promote this movie. I don't think he actually wants to win best actor this year. I don't think he cares. I do think he cares, but I don't think he's more interested in selling the movie. I don't think he wants to go head head with Leo. Maybe. I think he doesn't want to see B.C. trying and not beating Leo when he's trying to position himself as the next Leo. That's my theory. I think we're going to learn more about that in January and February after the movie comes out. I think what he's doing now is trying to draw a lot of attention to get people to go see the movie. He wants the movie to work. To do well. He knows what's riding on it and the power. He gets to basically be Leo if this movie opens well.

If this movie works business-wise, it's not going to be Titanic, obviously, but... Do you think it will? I have my doubts. I hope it's us. I mean, it's a tough market, which I do also think he knows. I think he's incredibly savvy, you know? And he's a real student, not just of, you know, film and acting, but press tours and celebrity. And is, like, and is playing the game very well.

So I think he understands what is at stake for him. And he also knows how many of, like, star projects this year have absolutely, like, fallen on their faces. Yes. So. I think there's maybe a little something to the Leo thing. And I do know that there's a class of people who think that Leo is actually just going to coast to number two here. I have felt like it's Chalameh the whole time. I could be wrong.

You mean a second Oscar as opposed to number two to Wagner, which is what I thought you meant when you first said it. No, no, no, no. Just that he took Oscar number two. I think it will depend if Marty Supreme is a big hit at the box office, then Timmy's a threat. But Timmy also is not like he didn't go to the governor awards. Like there are certain things that he's just not doing. I know. I think he's trying to carve a new path.

Okay. I could be. And it might not work and you might be right. It might be backfiring. But I think he's like, if we're going to change the way this stuff is, there's a new way to do it. It's really bold. And could be perceived as arrogant. And I'm sure that there are like classical awards systems that don't like this sort of stuff.

I'm not upset about, I mean, he can do whatever he wants to do. I was just sort of like, he didn't go last year and he missed. Yeah. And I'm just sort of like, well, if you did, if you tried to carve your own path last year and you almost but didn't get it. But as soon as Adrian Brody went on stage, everyone in the world was like, shit, we should have went with Timmy. Yeah, obviously, of course, yeah.

Okay. So do you think it's going to be that like it should have been you last year kind of win? Those happen all the time. They do. They do. So that's very much in play. I don't know, we'll see. It's a fun race.

It's a fun race because it's, you know, it's now. The Old Master, who is more than worthy of two, and the guy who, like, the industry is on his shoulders and, you know, Zendaya and Tom Holland and a couple of other people, but it's like, if movies are going to keep going, like, he's not making fucking TV shows. He's only making big movies. There might be the... Holand and he's out. That's right.

There might be the idea that Best Picture and Director and other things are going to go to one battle, that perhaps both supporting categories if you guys are right about Tiana Taylor, and then they feel like they need to award Marty Supreme. Again, I think it depends if Marty Supreme opens well. We'll see. Yeah. Okay, let's go now to my conversation with Klebermendoza Filio. Very happy to be here with Klebermendoza Filo.

So I want to start by talking about your life of movies. So it's such a crucial component of the secret agent, but we see a lot of young people going. to the cinema and Reseefay in the film. Do you remember the first movie you saw? The first film I saw, and I know this because my mother always told this story, it was a Tom and Jerry Marathon right at the Saint-Louis Cinema, which is one of the characters in The Sacred Agent.

And that movie palace opened in 1952. It's still open. It's one of the great movie palaces in the world, I think, today. It's absolutely intact and recently restored. And that's where I went to see my first film screening. How old? This was 1973, so I must have been four, almost five years old. Okay.

So then take me back to 77 as a filmgoer then, since that's such a critical year for this film. 77 was a special, interesting year personally for me, because... we had a health crisis in the family. My mother, she had a treatment for breast cancer at the time. And the family really tried to protect the two little kids, myself and my brother. I was nine at the time. My brother was seven. And my younger uncle, Honolado, he took us to the cinema many, many times,

a crazy amount of times, basically to take us. away from... An escape. Yeah, from home. And that's, that was an interesting moment because as a child, I wasn't really aware of what was happening. And I was going to see lots of movies in the downtown area in Hissifib, which I think explains my previous film, Pictures of Ghosts.

Of course, I was, I grew up and became a, a cinephile, and then, I did journalism and became a film critic and, of course, a filmmaker. But at the time, it felt like a real discovery, not only of films, but also of, you know, the downtown area. I remember the smells and the colors and film going was a big part of being downtown. You know, I think the cinemas attracted thousands and thousands of people every week. And I have many memories of that time. And the interesting thing is, not only do I remember the films I saw at the time, but I also remember the films I never saw at the time,

but I would see the posters and the lobby cards. And that really played with one's imagination, because at the time, of course, we had no intranet. And the only way to access films was in the cinema or maybe on television, but also outside the, you know, know, in the hall, in the lobby, and in the windows on the streets. So that's how I first saw, you know, the omen, which was rated 18 in Brazil at the time. And Jaws, which I only finally saw in the early 80s.

And, yeah, so many, so much of that iconography is very much part of my life, you know. It's part of this film, too, clearly. And it's part of this film, yeah. There are many references of film posters in the background. And I like to say that for pictures of ghosts, which is a documentary and a film essay, the Saint-Louis Cinema is shot like a character. But in this film, the Secret Agent, I think it shot like an actor, as if it was acting. Yeah, it's very alive.

I'm curious about the choice to make effectively these two films, which are very paired in some ways, but both memory movies in succession like this. Like, is it a certain time in your life, or why did it come at these times? It was never planned because I spent, I did Bakuara, of course,

and it was released in 2019. And I had been playing with the idea of doing a film which would probably be a film essay or maybe a documentary about film going. And I had a lot of stuff in my own private archive. And these films, you don't really write them.

They exist on what you find, on the materials you find. And the more you find, the more you want to make the film. So after going after all my videos and photographs from at the time of university, I expanded and went into the public archives and the Brazilian Cinematech and I just kept finding more and more stuff.

And that's how pictures of ghosts became a film. But by then, I already wanted to develop something with Wagner Motors. And then pictures of ghosts put me in the right mood to write the script for the secret agent. So they're very different films,

but they're very close in heart. Was there ever a period where the secret agent was set at a different time or more of a modern story? Was it always set in this world? No, it would always be in 1977. I think because it's probably the first year I remember as a kid. And when you're a kid, I think you concentrate on things that as an adult you wouldn't really pay attention. And, for example, today I don't know much about cars, but as a 10-year-old, I could tell you, you know, about all the different models and makes and details. And so that came in handy for the, you know, for the production design and little details that would help make the film more lived in, you know.

You mentioned Baccarat. I felt this watching that film as well, but watching this movie, one of the things that I love so much about it, is this unusual blend of genre, almost exploitation, convention, and in this film a lot of history, a lot of personal reflection, and then this sense of absurdism. That's like a very delicate balance between all these ingredients. I think life in society can be absurdist, can feel like an exploitation movie sometimes. I mean, just look at the news and so many nasty incidents and so much violence in the world. So I think when you sit down to write a script, it can go to many places. And I guess I grew up watching all kinds of genre cinema.

I'm a huge fan of, you know, Carpenter, for example, John Carpenter. Feel that in Bacaroa deeply. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, De Palma. I think Spielberg plays an important part in my, in my, in my, in my, in my, in my, years as a young cinephile also. But of course

I think a lot about, you know, Brazilian cinema from the 1970s and Australian cinema, of course. Something like Wake and Fright, I think, is very much, was very much in the back of my mind when I was writing the opening 10-minute opening sequence and even shooting it also. So, yeah, I really believe that

for example, I really love documentaries. But I think you can be very truthful doing fiction. And I even think that some fiction work can even be more truthful than some documentaries, not all of them, but some of them. What do you mean by that? I mean that you can use artifice and you can use genre conventions, but still come up with an idea which is very honest and very truthful about life and about people and about the world. And this is something that I keep getting as a reaction to some of my films

and to the secret agent. I mean, it's a narrative fiction and it's not based on real-life incidents. But there is a logic to it, which I think is very truthful about Brazil and about the world about the passage, the passing of time. It does feel at times like you're watching Wagner's character go through the experience,

and then it does it other times feel like you are watching the movie version of the real-life Wagner's experience, which is an incredible blend. You mentioned the first 10 minutes of Secret Agent. I wanted to ask you about that, actually. You've got very skilled as a filmmaker at creating dread. That's hard to do. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about designing a sequence so that we are feeling exactly what you want us to feel?

I think your question, this is a very interesting question, but I really have to say that some of the things that we do as a filmmaker, some of the things that you do as a writer, they come from your own style.

And I, for example, my biggest, most wonderful surprise about the Secret Agent is how funny it is. or how humorous, can I say? But humor is not something that you go for, at least I don't. Of course, some people say my next film will be a comedy.

But I always feel like saying, how do you know? You shouldn't really pre-design comedy. Comedy is something that it's like you go out with your friends to have lunch or to have dinner or to have a great conversation, and it turns out to be one of the fun. funniest evenings in your life, but it was never planned. It's just the chemistry of what we all

talked about and how we expressed ourselves that evening, and then it became a very kind of a very funny evening. And I think dread is, dread probably, you can probably tell from reading a script that there might be some dread involved, but I think dread also has to do with whether camera is and how the editing goes and maybe the camera is a little bit to the right a little bit more than maybe it should be and and that generates some tension so it's it's kind of hard to answer the question i think some of the situations are quite clear but but it's not really something that i that i'm planning i'm pretty oh tomorrow's sequence will be full of dread. It doesn't really work like that. Well, some filmmakers do work schematically,

or at least I have an idea of the things that they want to accomplish. I do think that the humor that you're talking about, in the example of someone like De Palma, it comes out of that feeling of dread where it feels so silly to feel so tight about what might happen to a character. Like in Carrie. Exactly. With the bucket of full of blood. Yeah, and there's something kind of hilarious, even though that's such a painful sequence. But yeah, I, this other thing, too, that is related to that is, you mentioned moving the camera to the right, there are some formal moves in the movie, split diopter shots, things like that, that feel like they are almost active comments on the era in which the film is taking place in the

films that were happening at that time. Did you make those choices for that reason? That's another interesting observation, because I have used split diopter shots in previous films. One of them is a contemporary story, Aquarius. So it's more about using tools and aspects of film language, which for some reason, I wouldn't even be able to tell you why. They've been left behind. I don't know why. It's like they've gone out of fashion. It's like a wonderful piece of clothing that you see, why doesn't, I want to wear this. Oh, but you're not supposed to. It's out of fashion, but I like it. So, but yeah, with the secret agent taking place in 1977, of course, I thought of, you know, blowout. I know it's 1981, but, you know, blowout and close encounters, you know, split dioptoshots.

And I love them. Well, if you use them in the right place, I think they can be interesting, you know. They might bring you some interesting reaction to the image on the screen. You shouldn't use it all the time. You should save it for an interesting moment. But then it's out of intuition. I might have an idea where I want to use it even as I write the script, but some other idea might come up during the shoot.

shoot. And I might say to the D.O.P. Afghanistan, can we bring the split diopter thingy? That's what I would have called it, too. And let's see how it looks, you know. Oh, it works. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, let's go for it. That's interesting. I find that in a lot of those films that are using some of those moves, that they're often done for dramatic storytelling purposes in significant tension-filled sequences. In your film, at least one of them, is a father observing his son and seeing

them both in frame, in focus. It's tricky to almost psychoanalyze the film, but I'm happy to do it. That's why you're here. I think they've been apart for so long. And even when they're in the same

room, they're still distant or far away from each other, I've never even verbalized this. This is the first time. That is the emotional impact that it has though. Yeah. And then the other one of course is this this man

who's paid to kill someone, he gets increasingly closer to the person. So finally they end up in the same shot in a very unusual way which is with the split dioptor shot. And I think it's very uncomfortable to see them

so close to each other, even if via an optical effect. So you mentioned that you were a cinephile and a critic and a programmer, and I think you were in your 40s by the time you made your first feature, right? Yeah, I was 42. So I'm always interested in people who start a little bit later. And like what impact you think that would have had as opposed to if you had made a feature at 27? Well, I come from a city which at the time when I was in university, there were no film school, so I did journalism. I've always enjoyed writing.

I've always been quite good at writing, even in school, terrible in math, good in writing, in Portuguese and English and these things. and then it happened what I expected the journalism brought me closer to an idea of cinema and for many years I felt good being a film critic

and I was already developing my little videos and short films I always felt that being a film critic is one way of making films I don't want to sound like a crazy person, but it is, I think, because you spend so much time not only watching but thinking about films

and trying to understand what films are trying to say and what do they mean, why did he or she do this? And in a way, and you're part of the whole thing about cinema. You're just sucking up to me now. But of course my short films they got more and more attention and in the 2000s

yeah that's when my short films became quite well known in Brazil and then I began to travel abroad also to international film festivals and get a lot of prizes and at the time I was perfectly happy making short films

there was no intention of trying to transition to features when you were doing that they weren't seen as like an on-ramp to something else I kept hearing that question all the time yeah when are you going to make a you know uh you know like a real film oh I'm happy making my short films and they were you know I got quite a lot of recognition for them and but then naturally I wrote the first feature neighboring sounds I I wrote it in two 2008 and got the funding. In Brazil, we have public funding. We got the funding in 2009. I shot it in 2010. And it did very well. And then I have only done since then only two other short films. Because once you get into the feature film train, it's hard to go back. Why? I think I finally understood why people kept asking, you know, when are you going to do a real film? But I have to say that I look at my short films,

I give them the same importance as I give, you know, Bakuara or the secret agents. But unfortunately, the world doesn't think like that. And of course, you get more recognition, more attention. You travel more. And, yeah, you're more seen, I think, making features. We don't have an adequate distribution system for shorts. It's just not coherently communicated to the public.

Yeah, I agree. There are many attempts. There are non-profits and even distribution companies. There is a short film world, and I've been part of it. You know, the Clermont-Ferrant International Short Film Festival is the can of shorts. It's an amazing festival in France. Europe has amazing short film festivals. Brazil has many, many short film festivals.

And as I said, you can be perfectly happy making short films. But if you make a film that gets noticed like Neighboring Sounds did, it's a different ballgame. How did you and Wagner cross paths? We met in Cannes 20 years ago. I was a critic and I got to interview him. I liked him very much. Clearly a great actor and a really nice person, nice guy. He's been on the show.

He's such a lovely person. And he didn't have that kind of anxiety that some actors and actresses have. you know like notice me and you know trying to be more than they are and time passed i went on to make my films he saw neighboring sounds and that was the first time that he reached out and said i really think we should work together someday and it took took like 10 years to happen and you wrote this for him. I wrote it specifically for him. It's the first time that I I write one film to develop with one actor. What was that experience like? Was it significantly different from writing features before that? I think it is. I think it is because sometimes you even write,

sometimes you're writing a script and you haven't, it's not supposed to be with anyone in particular, but you end up, you can't stop thinking about someone, an actor or an actress, and then you write a role, thinking that maybe he or she will be interested. And then sometimes you kind of grow out of the idea and it's, oh, change my mind. But with Wagner, it would always be with him. And in Telly, right, one of the interviews we did together, there was a funny question came out of nowhere, this guy's asked, what was the plan B? And he looked at me like a jealous, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, you know. You didn't answer. There was no plan B. I'm telling the truth. I never thought about a plan B, in fact. And it's interesting because

you, I kept, I know his work, I know the films he did and the television work he did and even theater. And I had, I had it mapped out in a way and, and I wanted to maybe go somewhere else with him. And I'm very happy with, with the way it turned out. I think he's wonderful in the film. He really is. He's an interesting figure because he's, you know, very classically handsome and he has a lot of movie star quality. And he can carry it. He can carry it. He's an interesting figure. He's an interesting figure because he's, you know, he can carry a movie on his shoulders as well. But I do feel like you tapped into something mysterious about him that, I don't know if I had quite seen before.

I don't know. Did you develop it after you gave him the script? I mean, how do you figure out how to make that character work in that way? Well, I think as a cinephile, I'm fascinated by the idea or the understanding we have of what a film star is. so what is a film star the film star is someone who occupies the shots

inhabits the frame in a way that is absolutely effortless and it's always interesting it's always interesting to look at him or her depending on who the star is and it doesn't I don't think it's really connected to good looks I mean, good looks are also part of what it is, of course.

And I always knew that Wagner would be interesting in the film. And because the film has so many situations where he stares, he thinks, you can see the machines going on inside his head. And he suggests emotion, anger. I think he has a lust for life in the film, the character. He has love. I think this film has a lot of love, affection, even if sometimes it gets brutal and nasty.

But I think it has a lot of love. And Wagner is great at all of that, you know, showing affection and showing compassion. and always being a good man but not not naive in any way just a good man

who knows what's happening or is even trying to understand what's happening around him yeah I wanted to ask you about that that brutality too because I find your films to be very sincere and deep but also fairly practical about the heinous

consequences of living under you know regimes that are dictatorial or under corporate power or any of the ideas that are in your feature films, how do you strike a balance between not, between keeping you, the viewer involved in the story and getting it connected to the characters,

but also making it clear what you mean, what you hope to communicate? Well, I think that if you're telling a story and, and you want to convey a true sense of, you know, life on earth. I think you should go, I think you should be loving when there is love, and you should be brutal if violence is involved. Sometimes violence is in the words. If someone is afraid, you should feel afraid for them. You know, it's, I think a lot about the, you know, how to portray violence, of course.

It's an old theme, cinema, it's an ethical issue. It's a technical issue, aesthetic issue. I, of course, grew up, like so many of us, with wonderful teachers like Verhova. De Palma again, Argento. And that gives me a map of where I can go. Cronenberg, of course, major reference. And I don't think, I think that if a certain scene

is about brutality, it should be brutal. I don't think I would make a film which is 100% violence but when I say this I think of a masterpiece like Texas Change Saw Massacre which is insanely

aggressive and brutal but that's a different kind of film but the films I make I think they there is always room for you know, to giving the right treatment, what I consider the right treatment to each individual

situation. If it's a sexual situation, I think it should be erotic, you know, in terms of human sexuality and a moment of affection and tenderness and sexuality between people. It should be honest and frank. And the same thing about, you know, people talking or people waiting for a bus it should be conveyed in a way that you get it it's involving engrossing

I wanted to ask you about Udo Kier so you've worked with him on two films he just passed away film legend you know he's just typically terribly entertaining in your movie

and his character is fascinating and it does feel like a real excursion in the middle of the story and I was hoping you could just talk about working with him and that sequence in particular. I love Udo Kier. Of course, I was shocked and saddened two weeks ago when he passed.

But at the same time, I remembered so much, I mean, that was a man who had such a full life, not only in terms of, you know, the history of cinema, the 200-plus films, he made and on all the stories that he would tell us, you know, with Fasbender, Barbara Sucova and Lars von Trir and Gass van Sents, which I think gave him one of his most beautiful

roles in the wonderful film shot in Oregon with Keanu Reeves and my own private Idaho, of course, which I saw last year again. But I was fortunate enough to work with him in two films, Bakurao and Secret Agent. And it was just, I feel so lucky, all of us, you know, who got to know him. He was funny. He had great taste. He had this sarcastic humor, which was, I mean, we got along. It was.

We were good friends and we would exchange messages. And he came to see the secret agent in late September at the Beyond Fest at the Aero. And we sat together and that's when he saw the film. And he was the same woodrow as always. And of course, I'll miss him very much. I was already thinking about him for the next film. That's terribly sad. I mean, that sequence in particular, I'd love to just hear a little bit about it.

There's something really, it's like a microcosm of the bigger idea of the film about what we believe about people. And he plays this German man who has moved to Brazil after World War II. And there's this assumption that he's an ex-Nazi or a Nazi. Well, but coming from the police chief who happens to be a fascist himself. Yes, precisely. And he's in fact not that. He's quite the opposite. And I don't know.

Where did that sequence even come from? I love this film, but it really stopped me about my tracks when I was watching it the first time. The sequence probably comes from the fact that Hissifi has a strong Jewish community. And when I was a kid, my father would go to a tailor, who was a Romanian tailor, I think in his 70s at the time. And I believe he was Jewish. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe he was Jewish. And his Sifia also has the first synagogue of the Americas. So it has a Jewish community.

I have many friends grew up with people from the community. And I thought that it's an interesting detour for Wagner's character, who is put in the position of having to bond with Euclid, is the police chief, who has this one-track mind. He seems to think that Hans is a very interesting character because obviously he must have fought in the Second World War for the Germans. In other words, he's a former Nazi soldier. But in fact, he doesn't get it.

I mean, the far rights, I think, usually have a problem with contextualization and history. And I think that's where the idea came from. And of course, I think it's a strong scene because it's very much about identity. And sometimes our identities in our bodies. Could be a scar, could be a birth sign, or maybe a tattoo. And he's treated like a circus attraction.

And he also seems to be married to another man who tries to get him out of the situation. And there was a lot going on in that sequence. And it was an amazing day when we shot the sequence in this incredible location in downtown his city. And Udo was incredible. He was amazing. And he had some cards with the Portuguese words. written in

phonetically and yeah he's speaking of Portuguese also in the sequence it's an amazing moment in a great film so you know nice to hear you speak about it I did want to ask you before we

wrap you know this is a much bigger I assume exposure for you film playing at Cannes and then getting this big release in the United States and you have entered the award season apparatus in a real way here

who's been observing films, thinking about films being very emotionally close to the world of films for so long, what is it like to have gotten to this place with something that you have made? To be honest, it feels good because I think that filmmaking is the whole nine yards. You think about a film like I'm thinking about the next film. The ideas are coming in. At some point, you sit down and write. And then you get the funding. You prepare the shoot. You shoot the film.

You start editing immediately. This film was edited in almost eight months editing. Morning and afternoon. From Monday to Friday. Then post-production. Then it's selected for Cannes. and then you begin to travel and I think traveling is part of making films. I feel lucky to be able to meet so many people and get so many reactions

and see so many other films and meet so many people that have been part of my life for, you know, for so long. So, you know, it's, well, it's hard work now, I have to say, is the award season. They're hustling you around. Yeah, but Neon is doing a really good job, I think, and there is a lot of traveling. Last week I did, I was in New York,

and then I flew to London, and then Rome, Paris, Marrakesh, New York again, L.A. now. Next is Mexico City, and then it just keeps going. But I'll be spending the last 15,000, 15 days of December at home with my kids and watching films and with Emily, my wife. And then it starts again in January.

But I'm in good spirits and I'm happy. You know, it's like it's what I asked Santa Claus way back then. I wish you well. I really hope you succeed in all of those things. You mentioned you'll be going home to watch films soon. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you been watching things during your journeys?

I was very lucky that one of the few days I was home, they were screening in Hesithi, Chantal Akeemann's Jin Dealman with the Restore, the 4K. And I gave myself the opportunity of spending three hours and 20 minutes in a 2 p.m. screening. with 19 other people in the screening room. It was a great moment. Do you remember how much time had passed

since the previous time you'd seen the movie? I had never seen it in the cinema. I had only seen it on DVD maybe 15 years ago. What struck you seeing it that way? Just the texture of the image. You can see this particular restoration, I found it really interesting because not only can you see the grain, but the sound,

sounds like an old optical 35 millimeter mono soundtrack. You even get a little bit of the hiss, you know. And it really felt like I had spent a full week with that woman in that apartment. It was a fascinating film-going experience. That's a great recommendation, Kleiber. Thanks for doing the show. Thank you very much.

Thanks to Cliver. Thanks to Joanna. Thank you. Thank you to Amanda. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, who's been freaking grinding this month. What are we doing next week? Oh, yeah, wake up dead man? Yes.

I want to do a mailbag. Oh, along with that. Yeah. Okay, great. You're just throwing that in. That's very exciting. I feel like there's a lot of shit going on right now. You know?

Big pick mailbag at gmail.com. Yeah, can we do that, Jack? Sounds good. Okay, Jack is making a spell like I have to read. 3,000 deranged emails. 30 minutes of mailbag. So let me Disney AI all the time. Yeah.

That's the subject. If you want to talk about Disney's investment in OpenAI, let's talk about it. Let me give some guidance. Questions, not comments. Thank you so much. Big Pickmailbag at gmail.com. See you then.

You know,