The Big Picture - HBO Max Isn't TV—It's Movie Paradise. Here Are 25 You Should Watch.

Episode Date: May 29, 2020

The launch of HBO Max means a new entrant in the streaming TV wars. But the big winners might be movie fans. HBO Max's catalog is one of the deepest we've seen. Sean picks a few favorites to start (1:15). Then he's joined by Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering to discuss their new film, 'On the Record,' which can be found on the service (30:24). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up guys, it's Liz Kelley and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Launching this week on our podcast network is a new show from Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay called Higher Learning. Two times a week, they'll be dissecting the biggest topics in black culture, politics, and sports and wade into the most important and timely conversations.

The first episode is out now, so make sure to subscribe to Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about movies and TV. Amanda is off today, so I'm flying solo. Later in this episode, I'll have a

conversation with the filmmakers Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering. They're the Academy Award-nominated documentarians behind serious issues-driven films like The Hunting Ground and The Invisible War. They've got a new movie called On the Record that is in keeping with their previous work. It's an exploration of the abuses of power and culture, sexual assault in the music industry, tethered to the rape allegations made by three women against the impresario Russell Simmons in December of 2017. The movie has endured some controversy of its own too. Just days before it was to debut at the Sundance Film Festival, Oprah Winfrey and her Harpo Productions withdrew their names from the film. A cloud quickly formed over this movie's future and Apple TV Plus, its original streaming home, pulled out as well. Then the film

played Sundance to a rapturous reception. I was there. It's really powerful. And it was quickly scooped up by HBO Max and is available to watch right now for subscribers to that service. So I talked with Amy and Kirby about the film and that controversy and why they keep returning to such difficult subject matter. So I hope you'll stick around for that conversation. But first, I wanted to talk a little bit about HBO Max. What's on the service? What is the service? What does it mean for the streaming wars? It's a big, noisy entrant in that battle. To hear more about the TV side of this, you should definitely check out The Watch this week with Chris and Andy, where they're breaking down the shows that you should watch, maybe a programming grid that you can check out if you're somebody who's looking to have a Chris Ryan or Andy Greenwald experience.

Friends is there and The Sopranos and The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. But HBO Max, more than anything, is really a great movie catalog. It's really one of the greatest movie catalog releases in the history of the medium. It's bigger than Netflix, Turner Classic Movies, Criterion Channel, Hulu, Amazon Prime, and mostly because it's a combination of all of those things. So what's on this service? Here's what to know, and here's where you should start. Think of it as a series of buckets. You've got a series of disparate partners that are coming together under the Warner's umbrella, under HBO Max. So you've got Turner Classic

movies and the Warner Brothers vault. What does that mean? That means Westerns, musicals, Oscar winners, so much classic Hollywood. You've got mega classics, all-time classics like Casablanca, Singing in the Rain, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Citizen Kane, Dirty Harry, North by Northwest, The Maltese Falcon, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The Wizard of Oz, Rebel Without a Cause, Rio Bravo, King Kong. You see what I'm saying? There are so many classic movies, movies that you have been told by your parents, your grandparents, podcasters like myself, that you have to watch if you want to be literate in American film history. We get questions about this all the time on Mailbags. Where should I start? Where do I get

my education as a film watcher? This is kind of a perfect place to start. There are not a lot of places right now where you can find Casablanca, King Kong, and Rebel Without a Cause and knock them all out in one night without switching services. So that's one thing that you can do. For more mainstream contemporary moviegoers, there's also a reason to subscribe to this service. You've got really some of the most well-known and beloved quote-unquote IP around. We've got the Harry Potter movies. We weren't sure how many Harry Potter movies were going to hit the service when it launched. It turns out all of them are there right now. So if you are a lover of binge mode and a lover of Potter, I would encourage you to check out those movies. They're okay. I'm a fan of them. I think some of them are a lot better than others. Maybe

at some point we can talk to Mallory and Jason about what does and does not work about the Harry Potter films. You may have heard us talk about the Snyder Cut last week on this show. The Snyder Cut, of course, is coming to HBO Max. And part of the reason for that is because it's under the Warner's umbrella. And so are all of the other DC Universe movies. So Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, of course, Man of Steel, Batman versus Superman, all future DC movies will likely be living on this service. Listeners of this show know I'm more of an MCU guy myself, but if you like the DC movies, they're all going to be there. Plus the Lord of the Rings films and the Hobbits films are also on this service. So you're talking about three of the five most significant intellectual property behemoths in the game all in one place right

now. And, you know, also the Police Academy movies. Who doesn't like the Police Academy? Bobby, do you like the Police Academy movies? I wasn't too big on them. No. Okay. Well, maybe you can get a film education of a different kind by diving deeper into the Police Academy universe. The other thing that is an important distinction point here is the Criterion channel and the Janus Films Collection also being a part of this. So serious film fans know that Filmstruck was a streaming service that launched a couple of years ago under the Warner's umbrella, a partnership between Turner Classic Movies and Criterion. That was

an amazing service. It closed far too soon. We spent some time on the show, especially since quarantine, talking about the Criterion channel and how great the Criterion channel is. And I think that there's some complication, some confusion, some lack of clarity on what is the value of the Criterion channel in the face of HBO Max? Now, if you can afford it, I would say stick with both. If you can't afford it and you are a serious cineast, I would say get the Criterion channel. If you are a person who just wants to have as many enjoyable movies as you know, get HBO Max. The Criterion channel is a much deeper and much more elegantly curated streaming experience.

There's tons of extras on there. There's clear editorial programming happening in a way that if you look at HBO Max right now, simply is not available. HBO Max is basically just throwing a lot of Criterion movies into their collections and organizing them by genre or category, but really not doing anything else. If you want to hear that Raging Bull audio commentary that we talked about in the mailbag last week, you have to go to the Criterion channel for that. Like I said, it's a much more sophisticated system. There's a lot more thought put into the way that they organize and share their films. But if all you really care about is watching the movies,

a huge part of the Criterion collection is actually available on HBO Max. And it's a hack, really, for people who don't necessarily need to have 11 subscription services. I mean, this really is an astoundingly vast collection of stuff. And that includes, you know, so much international cinema and so much, so many American classics. So you've got all of the Godzilla films. You've got all of the Akira Kurosawa films that we talked about on the Toshiro Mifune 100th birthday Podcast. You've got all the films of Ingmar Bergman. You've got lots of Federico Fellini films. I mean, the lifeblood of international Asian European cinema is all there. Tons of great American classics, like I mentioned, from the Turner Library. And then the big, massive, noisy

proposition here is Studio Ghibli. Wags, where are you at on the Studio Ghibli films? Are you familiar with them? Do you know what this means for the world of streaming for these films to come to this service? I'm familiar with them by title, but not quite as much by watching history. Studio Ghibli has like a certain film Twitter name recognition, but is not quite as materialized to me.

Yeah, I think that that's right. I think that there's certainly an intense cult following behind the films. These are Oscar-nominated animated films, but they've really never been available on streaming services in the States. You can buy them on iTunes previous to this, and of course, you can rent them in video stores in the past but this the presentation of these films we should say this is a japanese animation studio best known for the films of one of its co-founders hayo miyazaki who we talked about actually just a little bit with sam esmail on the director's game episode but miyazaki is really the you could make the case as the king of late 20th century and early 21st century animation. Spirited Away and My Neighbor Totoro and Princess Mononoke and many other films that he's directed and had a hand in.

And some of the other films from that studio as well are some of the most acclaimed and beloved, if little seen, animated movies of the last 50 years. And they're all available now. Every single film that they've produced is now, is not only available, but is being promoted on the app, on the service, under its own little banner. Which, if you had asked me 10 years ago if something like that would be possible, I would say it's a ridiculous proposition. But it's right there with Adult Swim and Looney Tunes. And, you know, it is getting that sort of mainstream push that we very rarely see for films like this. These movies are, they're beautiful. If you like Pixar, John Lasseter, one of the sort of creative overlords in the early days of Pixar, was a massive Miyazaki fan. And if you watch Toy Story,

watch Spirited Away right after Toy Story and tell me that there is not an overwhelming amount of influence in their stories. That very subtle combination of sincerity and seeing the world through the eyes of a child, and then also this very weird anthropomorphic relationship to creatures and inanimate objects and flight and going underwater. And it's just really a world bursting with imagination. I would recommend most of the films. I haven't seen everything. I'm looking forward to catching up. There's a couple of, like I have not seen Ponyo. That's one of the classic films from Studio Ghibli. And now I have a chance to see it, which is exciting. So you've got just these buckets are crazy. Turner Classic movies, all of these mainstream movies, Criterion Collection and

Janice Films, and Studio Ghibli is extraordinary just from a pure catalog perspective. And then if you look at the original movies lineup, this is an interesting thing. I mentioned On the Record, which is a very straightforward documentary that could live credibly on Hulu or Netflix. I'm not sure if it's necessarily a differentiator in terms of strategy, but there are a few more things coming. You may have heard us talk about Let Them All Talk, the new Steven Soderbergh movie coming out later this year, which is very exciting. I don't really know what form that's going to take. Soderbergh always surprises us. They announced, HBO Max did about a month ago, that they picked up An American Pickle, which is a movie that comes from Point Grey and Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg. It sounds like a period comedy of some kind. Super Intelligence is a movie that was supposed

to come out last year and got pushed back under the Warner Brothers banner. It's a Melissa McCarthy comedy directed by her husband, Ben Falcone, who's been a guest on this show. Unpregnant is a film from Rachel Lee Goldberg. Charm City Kings is a film that was picked up at a festivals last year. And then the Snyder Cut. So the shape and the collection of original films

is still a little bit formless, frankly. I don't totally know what the HBO Max original movie brand is, but we'll have to wait and see. If you had to pie chart it, how important is having a robust original movies lineup versus having this large archive in HBO's calculus for how many subscribers they can get to this platform?

It's a really good question because I think Disney Plus right now is going through this same calculus where Disney Plus, not unlike HBO Max, has this extraordinary catalog of certifiable classics and then all this nostalgia bait that people love. People like you who grew up on some of these Disney original movies that are getting a chance to revisit them. But how much of a draw is that long term? I think is an interesting question because at some point, you know that feeling when you see something

that you're familiar with and you've experienced before and you don't have, it's nice to have access to it, but you're like, I just don't need to watch Mulan for the fourth time. Like there's really no upside to it.

So you continue to subscribe, but the usership goes down on the service. I think HBO Max is weighing that just as much as disney plus and netflix frankly which is largely in the original content game has weighed that a lot over time too obviously they shifted out of a licensing strategy and moved much more into an original film strategy and an original tv series i think hbo max clearly has put way more emphasis on original series and part of the challenging aspect of this conversation is I just don't see as much of a distinction between movies and TV going forward.

So all of those titles that I just listed on the record and let them all talk and all these, those are films. Those are clearly defined 90-minute, two-hour movie experiences, the kinds of movies you could see in a movie theater. And if this were 1995, you would see them in a movie theater first. There's also going to be a lot of series on HBO Max that is individuated from HBO that seems like it could be a movie, but it's just been elongated. I mentioned something like Mrs. America or Normal People last week that 20 years ago probably would have been a little bit

closer to just a long-form movie that you would see in a theater. I just don't know how much movies are going to drive interest here. We've been having this conversation about how much does the Irishman or marriage story mean to the bottom line for Netflix? I mean, it means a lot insofar as getting publicity and attention and awards are always meaningful. On the record, could compete for best documentary at the Oscars. I'm not sure. It's a little hard to say given the uncertainty around all of the races. I do think that there is a massive benefit to getting powerful and acclaimed filmmakers to make things for your service. Being able to say Steven Soderbergh made a movie for HBO Max, thus

strengthening HBO Max's identity. Melissa McCarthy is the star of a movie that you can only watch on HBO Max. I think that matters. I think there's something to that. And I assume that they will continue to push forward. Also, when we talked about the Snyder Cut last week, I thought Amanda made a great point about it, which is that the timing is not a mistake. Even though that movie is not coming out for another year and it's going to cost millions of dollars to the studio, you can't buy the publicity that they got. We did basically a whole

episode oriented around the news that it was actually going to happen. That's Twitter's fault, man. That's Twitter's fault. It is. But somehow, I think you can kind of meme something into importance. And that was the rare case of it,

of it growing into a, like a, a talk, like a, like a, an object of fascination for a lot of people who are both in and out of the industry. And it gave them a little bit of a window into how some of the industry

works. And insofar as that, like, I don't know that good job. Does it mean that the justice league movie is going to be good? I don't know. I mean, maybe this is going to sound really reductive but it's an easy sell it's just two words snyder cut and everyone's like what is that you know what and then it turns out that

it's this really rich multi-faceted story about an industry it it is and the thing that i have seen and i don't know if this will hold true but the way that the movie has been positioned on some of the materials is zach snyder's justice true, but the way that the movie has been positioned on some of the materials is Zack Snyder's Justice League. You know, the way that something would be introduced as, you know, with a sort of authoritarian authorship. And that's fascinating unto itself. You know, Zack Snyder, five years ago, had a similar reputation as somebody like Michael Bay, a very successful person who was like kind of an arch villain, kind of like a behemoth of mainstream movie making, who maybe was considered by most critics to be not a great artist. And now to give him that power and give him the titular role in Zack Snyder's Justice League is kind of a fascinating turn of events. But that's how these

services work now too. They need these big, noisy collaborators. They need Martin Scorsese's The Irishman to push these things forward. They need Adam Sandler to be at the forefront of their streaming service. It'll be interesting to see if HBO Max tries to draw in a Sandler type. Would Will Smith ever come to the table

as an HBO Max figure? Would Leonardo DiCaprio? Somebody who you see all their films no matter what, you're just on board for the experience with them. We'll see. I don't know. We also saw the news this week, which I thought was interesting,

that the new Leonardo DiCaprio, Martin Scorsese film, Killers of the Flower Moon, an adaptation of the David Grand book, is going to Apple TV. And it'll be distributed theatrically by Paramount, but it's ultimately going to be an Apple movie. And Apple is applying the same strategy here that HBO Max is going to be applying, that Netflix is applying right now. So the whole industry is really just slowly but surely coalescing around,

will people tune in for a streaming movie? So we'll keep an eye, a close eye, I think, on what original movies are going to come. I have a couple of recommendations for what people should watch. I'll share those right now. So if you're looking at Criterion Essentials, you can't go wrong with literally a thousand of the films the Criterion Collection has shared um there are very few bad additions to the collection it was funny to listen to the guys on the rewatchables talk about the fact that armageddon was was once a member of the criterion collection they have not reissued that that is a blu-ray it's only available on very rare dvds it's one of those

precious items of the early days of dvds but um Armageddon, in my opinion, is worthy because you know where I stand on Michael Bay, Bobby. But I did just rewatch an all-time classic called The Red Shoes, the Powell and Pressburger movie. And I was trying to think of what's a modern day companion to The Red Shoes. The Red Shoes is a story about a ballet impresario, a composer, an aspirin composer, and a young dancer, a young ballerina. And it's really about the tolls of creativity and committing yourself, perhaps at

your own cost, to being great at something. I feel like this is something we thought a lot about when we were watching The Last Dance, the sort of monomaniacal commitment and ambition to being the absolute best at something and the way that art in good ways can overwhelm you and take over your life and the way that it can destroy you in some ways too. So I thought a lot about Whiplash, which is one of my favorite movies of just the last 20 years. I'm a huge fan of Whiplash. I feel like Whiplash and the Red Shoes would make for a dynamite double feature for people out there. So if you're interested in that Miles Teller classic, the Damien Chazelle classic, I would check out The Red Shoes. Another movie to check out.

So are you familiar with the Lone Wolf and Cub series, Bobby? No. So Lone Wolf and Cub is a series of Japanese films. There are six films in all. They're fairly low budget, very fun action adventure films. They're essentially the story of a shogun executioner and his sword and a young child

that he has to protect. There's the lone wolf and the cub. And the first of these films I still think is the best Sword of Vengeance. It's incredibly fun, fast moving, clever, sleek, kind of post Kurosawa action samurai movie.

If I'm thinking about something to pair it with, if you read a lot of the criticism about the Mandalorian, there were, there are a lot of parallels here. There are a lot of parallels to the Mandalorian and baby Yoda and, and the role that those two figures have in the Lone Wolf and Cub series. I would say just check out one of them. The first film is only 84 minutes. It's very breezy, enjoyable.

People are always asking us for movies that are 90 minutes or less on this podcast. Check out Sword of Vengeance. You won't be disappointed. And then get ready for Mandalorian Season 2 on Disney+. What's next? I mentioned Studio Ghibli. Ihibli mentioned spirited away i just revisited spirited away i think it's their best film i haven't seen everything so i'm gonna i'll be able to weigh in a little bit more clearly on that in probably a couple of weeks once i get through everything if you're a fan of the wizard of oz you'll probably like spirited away they have a lot in common

um oh that little movie, The Wizard of Oz. Yeah, I mean, but that's the thing. If we say that there is this relationship between Pixar and Studio Ghibli, there is a relationship between classic Hollywood,

classic cinema, and Studio Ghibli too. And it's all, it's just this daisy chain of interconnectivity. So I would check out Spirited Away, check out The Wizard of Oz.

One last one with a pairing fans of the rewatchables are familiar with the film heat, uh, notorious for the episode about heat and then the reheat. Uh, if you haven't seen Stanley Kubrick's, the killing, it's one of his first films. It's really his first, I don't want to say mainstream film, but it's really his first major Hollywood production. Uh, really one of the best heist movies of its time. Has an incredible performance from Sterling Hayden. And it's sort of a picture of backstabbing and two-timing. And it's a little bit of a secret sports movie.

And it's got tons of great performances, tons of great, very memorable, kind of that guys of their era, Elisha Cook Jr. and Timothy Carey. And it really signals the way forward for where Kubrick is going as a filmmaker. So if you like Heat, check out The Killing, which is also available on HBO Max. And then there's a whole bunch of other stuff. I mean, just some of my all-time personal classics are available on this service. Network, the extraordinary Sidney Lumet Patty Chayefsky movie just a perfect film oppression film astonishing performances really funny really

strange lots of people yelling you know I feel about people yelling in a movie Bobby just one of my favorite things the amount of times that I've had to turn the volume down editing a podcast of yours where you're just yelling movie lines I love to yell lines uh the long goodbye robert altman's 70s classic starring elliot gould i don't i don't know maybe we'll do

a long goodbye episode at some point definitely one of the best and smartest films fusing kind of the ideas of classic hollywood and noir fiction and noir cinema with that like slack easygoing 70s aspect that altman was always striving for. And then I also just noticed that Hoop Dreams is on there. A lot of conversation about Hoop Dreams lately. The Bill Simmons podcast has been talking about it a bit because they've been talking about when we were kings and what is the all-time greatest sports documentary. What's on your sports doc, Mount Rushmore?

I mean, Hoop Dreams is massively important to me. That's on there. I just rewatched it in the last couple months actually and i don't remember why but i paid for it like on voodoo or something and now it's on a streaming service just a couple months later so don't i feel that very 2020 feeling like damn it i paid a la carte for this movie and it's on a streaming service somewhere but i how could i have known uh i know that was the first sports documentary that i saw where i was like oh it's not about sports you know and that is the power of a sports

documentary now that i have seen and pursued a field where i want to take sports more seriously than just the the final result of the game so yeah i don't know what's on your mount rushmore sports docs it's a tricky one i think obviously oj made in america we spent a lot of time talking the final result of the game. So yeah, I don't know what's on your Mount Rushmore of sports stocks. It's a tricky one. I think obviously OJ made in America. We spent a lot of time talking about that. Just watch that last week. That's on there as well.

Very powerful film and ESPN plus thing. The only place you can get it. That's right. That's the other thing is all this stuff is just going beneath the hood. You know, it's going behind walls left and right. So it's going to be harder and harder to see a lot of these things. What else is on the list there? Senna, I would say. Asif Kapadia's portrait of Arjun Senna, the race car driver. Gosh, what else? There's so many. I think Icarus

is a fascinating example of a movie that starts out like a sports movie and turns a little bit more into a true crime story, which seems to be more the order of the day on a lot of these films. Even Free Solo, which we talked about a lot a couple of years ago because of its Oscar run and that in its way. I think there's a couple more probably long-time classics. The Endless Summer, which is sort of a hybrid documentary. There's a great surfing movie. I'm a big fan of Beyond the Mat, the pro wrestling documentary, which was a pretty radical thing to see.

I don't remember when, I think that's late 90s when that movie came out and really lifted the ring apron, pulled back the curtain on what really happens in the world of professional wrestling. I'm a fan of professional wrestling. I'm not ashamed to say it.

And it's a little hard to be a fan of professional wrestling after you see movies like that but uh it's just very very effective so i mean that's just the that's a short list there's so many more i'm sure people will add us and be like you fucking morons how did you not name x yeah well i feel like we're naming a lot of culturally significant ones, but from a pop kind of candy perspective, the you just definitely just lit my world on fire when that happened for the first time, because I had never seen such a propulsive documentary up until that point where I didn't know what was going to come next necessarily,

because there are so many elements of that story that were, that had gotten lost and then were resurfaced with that doc that I just wasn't old enough or alive for, or. Yeah. I tried to avoid just rattling off a bunch of 30 for thirties. Cause 30 for 30, like just,

just change sports documentaries for obvious reasons. But you know, my, my favorite 30 for 30 is June 17th, 1994, Brett Morgan's movie, which I think is, has both of those things that you're describing.

It is both culturally significant, but also is just a fascinating watch. It's like an amazing piece of film editing. And for those who are not aware of it, it's essentially all about the day when OJ Simpson and Alan Cowling were being chased in a white Ford Bronco. And simultaneously, there was the World Cup opening ceremony and the last day of Arnold Palmer's US Open career and the Stanley Cup parade and very famous New York Knicks game that was a bit devastating for a young me. Man, there's so many good 30 for 30s. No crossover. The Iverson film. Winning time. Reggie Miller versus the New York Knicks for obvious reasons. I like Alex Gibney's

catching hell. Really big of you to say that one. Well, you know, it's like there will be blood of sports documentaries, you know? It's like Reggie Miller is an evil villain, but he got the job done. And just like Daniel Plainview. So that's a long short list, I would say. The other thing that I noticed when I was kind of peering around HBO Max is just what an incredible music movies collection it is. I mentioned some of those Warner Brothers musicals that people should check out, Shall We Dance and Gold Diggers of 1933 and all that stuff. But there's also this crazy collection of concert films. You've got Wattstacks is on there

and Woodstock the film. And I believe Monterey Pop is on there, which Liz Hanna talked about on our Criterion Channel episode. And Elvis's That's The Way It Is, which is about his sort of 70s comeback tour, which is a fascinating movie that I haven't seen since I was a kid.

You know, all the versions of A Star Is Born can be found on this service, including the most recent version starring Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga, a big picture Hall of Famer. So you've got really like some of the best music movies ever. You've got some amazing sports movies.

You've got some amazing samurai movies. You've got some amazing classics of noir, mystery, like just insane. Tons of animation, some pretty damn good TV shows, you know? And then there's still even some stuff that I haven't seen here.

As much time as I spend my bizarre life watching and rewatching things all day long, especially during quarantine, I picked up on a couple of three classics or three, three classic filmmakers with some lesser known films that I've never had a chance to see. So I wanted to recommend those as things that I'll be watching and maybe talking about at some point in the future on the show. The first one is Elia Kazan's The Sea of Grass. I'd heard of it, never seen it, really looking forward to digging into it. The second is Robert Altman's Countdown. This is

one of his earliest films. I think it's really his earliest film. This is pre-MASH. It's a space story starring James Caan. I'm looking forward to checking out.

And then George Cukor's Keeper of the Flame, which is a Hepburn and Tracy movie. And I should say that because this is Warner Brothers stuff largely, almost all the Hepburn and Tracy movies are on the service too.

Pat and Mike is there and just the sort of like pitter patter that you found maybe in His Girl Friday which we talked about earlier

this week on the show you can find times a thousand really in Hepburn and Tracy movies so I've got three that I'm going to check out that I'm

really excited about anything that you are going to watch on HBO Max Bobby what's first in your queue so I haven't scrolled it fully through yet. The app just updated on my PlayStation. But jumping out here is spirited away because it dovetails so nicely with what I think of as like my childhood nostalgia in Pixar and animated films. And also because it's like the, the online movie hipster movie right now,

you know, it's time to see what the hype is all about. Um, fair warning. It does feature, uh, a young girl having to witness the horror of her parents being turned into giant pigs.

So just prepare yourself for that. Brace yourself. Great. Um, we're going to go to my conversation with Kirby and Amy really quickly, but I hope you will check out the big picture next week. We had a special episode celebrating the big homie Clint Eastwood, who turns 90 years old on Sunday. It's crazy. Adam Damon and I wrote a piece about some of his films on The Ringer this week. Chris Ryan is also going to be joining us on that podcast clint eastwood is one of the more

fascinating controversial brilliant and everlasting figures of american cinema and you can find a lot of his movies on hbo max so maybe you can do a little bit of pre-gaming maybe you should check out dirty harry before uh before the pod bobby what do you think? Will do. We'll report back. Okay. I can't promise you that you're going to like it. It's not exactly a terribly 2020 kind of film. Nevertheless, I'm a big fan. So I hope you'll check out that out next week. And now let's go to my conversation with Amy and Kirby. Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering, thank you so much for appearing on the show um i'm very eager to talk to you about your film i wanted to start by asking how film like this starts because this isn't the first film of this sort with this sort of sensitivity and thoughtfulness that you guys have made before but are the ideas typically organic or is, and does a figure approach you and that,

and that's where the story comes from? Or do you think more about topic and subject matter first? That's a great question. Our films are all very organic. So we don't work from scripts. We don't adapt books. Um, we, the film kind of finds us, you know, we go into topics and we explore them and then we sort of find, find where we're going. So, you know, we go into topics and we explore them and then we sort of find where we're going. So, you know, this came about because we were in the midst of, in 2016, we were sort of looking into sexual assault and harassment in the entertainment space. We'd already done two films in the space and sort of naturally thought we should start

looking at this industry since it's right in our backyard. And we sort of put that project on hold because no one wanted to go near it. They felt like, you know, too close to home. Distributors weren't interested. People didn't want to talk. You know, nothing surprising there. Then Me Too happened. You know, our cell phones started exploding.

People were like, hey, remember that movie you wanted to make? How about making it now? And, you know, how much money do you need? And, you know, then a lot of the people we reached out to said, I'm happy to talk to you now. So we jumped in. So that's kind of the genesis of this one. And in the course of doing a multitude of interviews, we came across Drew. We heard about what she was grappling with and that she didn't know whether she wanted to come forward or not. And we said, hey, how about if we just follow you on your journey? Don't sign a release, no harm, no foul. Let's just see where

this goes. We don't want to put any pressure on you whatsoever. We don't want to influence your decisions whatsoever. This is a safe space. You can tell us to get lost anytime. And she said, well, okay. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I don't know. The world's upside down. Okay. Let's just see how this goes. And so that's kind of how this project came about. I'm curious about that time before you found Drew and she became the key subject in the story. What goes into that process of trying to communicate with potential people to participate in the film? And how do you become aware of some of those people on your end?

Oh, it's very elaborate and complex and it's through all sorts of ways. Drew came through a personal contact, just another filmmaker who's amazing and who knew we were making this film, happened to be a mom in the same school as Drew, and Drew sat the filmmaker called us, but all other sorts of ways. I mean, gosh, we, you know, I think we sent out, you know, pros at emails to our networks and ask them to reach out to their networks. Sometimes we post things on Facebook. Sometimes we go through journalists. Sometimes we go through lawyers. There's a whole host of ways we, you know,

once we're in a subject that we find people to talk to. The irony is when we, after Hunting Ground came out a year later, that was 2015, 2016, I was asked to be on a jury at Sundance. Sundance has this woman's night, or it used to. I don't know if it's still there. I think it might have. It might still. Had a woman's dinner.

They sat me next to Rose McGowan. I didn't know Rose. I don't watch much movies honestly i don't and she we didn't know each other and she says i'm rose mcgowan i introduced myself and she's like oh my god you made hunting ground we have to talk and she started talking to me about harvey and so that sort of was what first planted the seed it was just sort of that accidental conversation by my accidentally to the next rose mcgowan two years pre need to. Um, so yeah. I imagine that earning the trust with subjects of the film is such a essential part of the process on these last few films that you've made. Can you,

can you just talk a little bit about how you both go about doing that and what it's like to encounter someone who has such a sensitive story that needs to be told carefully and you know, how you make them feel safe participating in a project like this which i imagine takes a long period of time you know we have made obviously made the invisible war in the hunting ground so usually when we come to subjects you know because of that track record there is a built-in a certain level of trust um but for survivors coming forward, it's always a very, you know,

difficult experience and it's a big step for them. And so one of the things we do is that during the interview in particular, we set up a very safe space for them. You know, we let them know that they can talk about whatever they want to. They can choose not to talk about things. They can, if they say something, and then during the course of the interview, they later on think they don't want to include that. That is fine. And even afterwards, if they later decide they don't want to be in the film, which has happened on occasion, we are completely fine with that. Because one of the things we don't want them, they're already very, been hurt and traumatized. And we don't want to, as filmmakers, add any more of that, any more trauma to their experience.

The other thing is, is that, you know, Amy is just a phenomenal interviewer and she's able to create that safe space in the moment. She's there's a real she's able to just develop this real, I think, intimate environment in which to kind of discuss these very painful, often very painful experiences. And I think our films would not be what they are without just an amazing series of interviews done by Amy and The Invisible or The Hunting Ground, and now and on the record. Thank you, Curry. But if I could just add to that, it's also we come with a real sincere integrity

that I think that's legitimate. We're not sensational. We're not exploitive. We really are there to sort of bear witness, you know, and hear testimony on the person's terms that they feel safe and comfortable sharing. So, you know, and that's really, really important. I mean, I always say to them, look, you know, your emotional health comes first. You know, we are just here, you know, you know, just no harm, no foul. However you want this to go is the right way for it to go.

You know, if you want us to leave, fine. If you want to stop and take a break because you're crying, fine. If, you know, you don't feel comfortable at any moment, let us know. I mean, and I really, we really mean that, you know, and I always would say to them always, you know, I don't want to sleep tonight thinking I added to your burden in any way you've gone through enough. So, you know, just, and, and, and I mean that, and please believe that. And I know that a lot of times, like years later, I mean, we've gotten a lot of really beautiful letters from survivors, you know, and when I remember after hunting ground and she wrote to us and said, I didn't end up in the film, but

that interview I did with you guys was transformative and I can't thank you enough. And, you know, um, it just, I never felt heard and believed in that way before. And, and so I just wanted to reach out and say,. So that's important to campuses. There's a lot of complexity around all those issues. So how do you situate yourself so you feel like you're the right person to be asking questions about what those people's experiences were like in those environments? Well, I have a very strange preparation in that I don't prepare, oddly enough. I want to be a really active listener. The less I know about your story before I meet you, the way, way better. So that I'm reacting in real time. I'm absolutely present to everything you're saying and I'm reacting to it in a, you

know, in the most authentic way. I'm never trying to get somewhere. I'm always trying to explore, you know, it's really, I think of it less as an interview as a conversation And did you ever hear the outtakes, you know, and sometimes I share things with them that they've made me think about and so it just becomes and I think that I think the trust and the empathy is important in what I do But I also think that spontaneity and the non-agenda is really important and informs the way I work. It's not from, it's not only from laziness, but it really is from wanting to be completely fresh. So Kirby does a lot more of the pre-vetting and prepping than I do, honestly. And then I just sort of

go extemporaneously and, you know, with intuition and heart and, and acuity, obviously. I have a roadmap and a sensitivity of the topoi or the point of entry, but I really want to explore and learn. What keeps drawing you both to this subject matter? There's obviously a very powerful conversation that's been happening about it over the last couple of years, but I imagine that these films are very difficult to do and to put yourself in front of these stories for years at a time maybe just sounds very challenging. So what draws you back?

Agony. Masochism. It's extremely hard. It is very dark, but it also is part of the responsibility. Who better than us? Once we get involved and invested. And because we have such this trove of knowledge and experience, like we do feel responsible,

you know, we get, but it's, it is very taxing too, you know? And the only thing I'll say about that is, is, is like, it's just sad, right? Like doing this kind of work, you can see how hard it is. If it's hard for people to come forward and then it's hard for reporters to report on it, like, oh, dear Lord, you know, like, oh, you know, like, how do we get out of that, you know? So, you just sort of take a deep breath and do what you can and just say, you know, it's, you know, you know, it's what we need to do. But, you know, we would, I would personally, you know, I wish it wasn't that way. I wish it wasn't so hard. You know, it's hard. And the reason it's hard is because you have to, like I said, you have to be active and present and sensitive to make these kind of films.

You know, with the acuity and sensitivity that we make them, that takes an open heart and an active intelligence. And those are hard things to sustain year after year in traumatic spaces they really are but yeah and i think that's kind of one of the important reasons it's important to do it it's because it is hard and because um you know i mean there are you know wonderful journalists wonderful filmmakers documentary filmmakers you know working in this arena but, but it's not easy. And because it's not easy, these stories and these points of view don't get told. And that is why for so long, certainly pre-Me Too, people just did not really, the public did not understand

the survivor experience. And so as a result, you know, they were disbelieved. And as a result of being disbelieved, these crimes could continue. So it, you know, yes, it is difficult, but it's almost more important to do it because it is difficult to do. pages of the New York Times during the making of the film. I'm curious about how you report a story like this yourselves and how much awareness there was in the industry about what you were trying to do and how you got people to participate in the film. Skeletally, but go ahead, Kirby. We move very carefully. We're very, you know, we keep a lot under the radar. We're, you know, we're very careful of protecting the investigation and

protecting the subjects. And so we tend to be very discreet and have a very close circle of people who know what we're doing and what we're exactly exploring. That's a first level answer. Kirby, do you have something to add? No, no, I think that's very true. Also, I mean, we do have, it's not just us, obviously, and it's not just our team, but it's a wider group of people who have kind of supported us and, you know, throughout all our films. And so there's kind of a network of people that we work with, and we keep the information sort of within that network, but we can get support from them. How familiar were both of you with the music industry and specifically the world of hip-hop before you started this? Yeah, no, we weren't experts in hip-hop. That's the truth.

And again, this is why, you know, one of the things we do when we make a film is it's really a learning process for us. And in this case, certainly with, you know, our subjects, our subjects were really guided us into, you know, the range of subject matter, you know, subjects our subjects were really guided us into you know the range of subject matter you know in this film and and kirby read a lot of hip-hop books which was always amusing to me well i ask because i i i used to work in in in that field in in in journalism and i really did feel like you captured a moment in time that we don't frequently see on screen in that way. That's especially that sort of early 90s, the sort of the glamour and

the intensity, but also a lot of the misogyny that was happening in hip hop at that time. And how do you sort of fact check, not just the facts of the cases that you're talking about, but almost like the atmosphere and the history of something? Well, a lot of the people in the film, you may or may not know, are sort of like, you know, really like ground zero for hip hop expertise and knowledge, you know, Kierna Mayo and Dr. Joan Morgan and Shinda's younger generation. But, you know, they really, you they really were part of the whole... They were there at the inception

and through the whole journey. We relied a lot on their expertise in the making of the film and the work they'd written and other people's analyses as well. We're very careful, just like with the investigations, we're careful.

We're careful with everything. We're careful with the analysis and the presentation and historical representation. And we did have a, you know, an excellent editorial team that there was a great deal of knowledge there. So, you know, I think, you know, Sarah Newins and Derek Boonstra and, you know, and Ed Alva and, you know, Sarah Newins and Derek Boonstra and Ed Alva, they all contributed vastly and greatly to all the hip-hop, the whole film, but especially the hip-hop section. What level of resistance did you get from that community when it became clear that you were trying to report this story? I'm curious because hip-hop is notoriously masculine and misogynistic at times, so I assume that there were some people who were angry about what the story you were trying to tell. Well, no one knew until the Sundance announcement, so there was nothing. We keep things that close

to the vest. I mean, the only thing we experienced in the making of it is that obviously it was hard to get certain interviews with people once they understood just even the arena that we were exploring. You know, it's a very, you know, people. So that's what we experienced, but we didn't experience any sort of backlash or resentment. We just experienced a real reticence to come forward, you know, which isn't surprising. And we found that in Campus of Falls. We found that that in the military it's not unique to hip-hop so you know there wasn't really that but um you know because no one knew it was just it was just people just thought knew we were doing something in the music industry on assault and harassment but they there were no more specifics than that Are you able to speak about what else happened after the Sundance announcement

and how the film moved homes and you lost an executive producer? I think that there was some concern maybe about the film before Sundance and then after the film was seen, it felt like it was very rapturously received. So I don't know what your perspectives are on what happened there.

Well, what we know happened, all we know happened is that we worked closely and had a very very close warm um fruitful collaboration with harpo and ms wintry you know for nearly a year um and uh there was a change of heart after the film got announced at Sundance and, um, then there was, you know, a parting of company that sometimes happens and that was, you know, sad and unfortunate, but we are just thrilled by the way it was received and grateful that, you know, HBO Max embraced it and picked it up and, you know, and we just, we just knew that we weren't going to blink and we weren't going to waver. And we've made a commitment. Once we set out to make these kinds of films, we are a hundred percent committed to making sure these voices are, you know, are, are heard and not no longer suppressed. And that was sort of our paramount, you know,

that was our guiding principle. And so we just felt we couldn't waver and had this you know had to see the project through so yeah i mean we really felt the responsibility uh to the women in film certainly the survivors because because they had made the decision to come forward in this film to tell their story and um know, it's a very courageous decision. And so we felt like we had to continue to support their, their stories no matter what. And that's, that's the way we approach. We've always approached all our films, certainly films with survivors is that, you know,

once somebody has taken that risk and made that step, I mean, we feel a real obligation to stand with them stand behind them and to and to get their stories out were you were you personally concerned about feeling like the work that you had done had been invalidated when that controversy kicked up you know we ourselves knew that the film was rock solid we We knew it was strong. We knew because, you know, many, many people had seen versions of the film and it had been received very positively, including Harpo and, you know, Oprah Winfrey had, you know, embraced the film. So we didn't have any doubt about the film at all. And also keep in mind that the report, as far as the reporting is concerned,

you know, these stories had been reported on in the New York Times, in the LA Times, in the Hollywood Reporter. And then, of course, we go through a very extensive fact-checking process ourselves. And then again, it goes to, you know, our attorneys, and then it went to Apple. everything we were we knew we had something that was completely rock solid and also a very powerful film so we didn't really have any doubts and that's another reason why we were so committed to getting this film out could you talk a little bit about the the reception at sundance which i thought was just very very strong overwhelmingly um like I said,

rapturous and what that's like and what the experience was like of having some of the subjects of the film there for the debut of the film? I think it's a once in a lifetime experience. I don't think I've ever or ever will again, you know, experience anything like that. If you were at the premiere, what happened was was we walked you know the audience they sat the audience down and then we walked in along with you know the women uh the women experts and and the survivors drew dixon salai abrams and sherry hines and uh and now she goes by sherry share and then all the the women experts in the film and the audience left their feet. This was before anything, before anyone had said a word and, you know,

gave everyone a standing ovation, long thunderous. And I mean, it was, you know, and then it was just so incredible, the energy and everyone was so, we were so moved and touched and felt just, you know, just such a sigh of relief. Like, okay, we made it. We're here. It's okay. You know, everything's going to be okay. And I just, it was profound, you know, profound for everyone and really healing and really, really helpful.

So we were, it was incredible. Yeah, I thought it was an amazing scene. And it's part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you both about this. Can you talk just a little bit while I have you both about how you see the state of documentary filmmaking and the ability for people to see movies right now since it is, I feel like it has grown exponentially since you both started making films. And I'm curious how you see it, if it's been a good thing, if it's been beneficial to the work that you do, or if there are any downsides to the growth of the, of the medium. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's been extremely positive in so many ways. You're

absolutely right. I mean, when we started making films, you know, it sort of, it sort of felt like you're in a bit in this backwater industry. No one, I mean, uh, and there was certain vanishes to that. No one really, you are allowed just to make the film you wanted to make you. If you were choosing to make a film on a subject matter, there weren't other filmmakers already making film on the same subject matter. So there was something about that isolation that was,

you know, kind of nice in a way, but I think overall, it's just, it's, this is, you know, kind of nice in a way, but I think overall, it's just, it's, this is, you know, it's so wonderful that there's been this support, um, both for funding documentaries and for, um, uh, you know, and the audience of course has just grown exponentially. So, um, and it's, you know, there's a lot of amazing, wonderful filmmakers, young filmmakers coming in that are just incredibly talented. So I think overall, it's really a great time for documentary.

Have you found that it's gotten more competitive in a way? Do you find that you're competing for stories at all? It's very dynamic and fluid and changing. I don't feel like I feel like we are, because we sort of tend to, we sort of tend to sort of just do what we want to do in a weird way, like, or do what interests us or what we think is important, you know, or what speaks to us. You know, I don't think I could make a film on something that I didn't, you know what I mean, that was like sort of pitched to me by someone else. You know, so in that sense, it hasn't really changed for us.

But, you know, what has changed is that it's sort of more market driven. I think, you know, obviously there's, you know, that it's more prey to algorithms now. It's more prey to, you know, big business. It's more prey to corporate interests, right? You see what gets greenlit, what's too touchy, you know, what appeals to red states. I mean, all of that, you know, was never ever so sort of, you know, oh gosh, what analyzed, monetized, you know, it's strange. So in that way, yes, you know, I mean, I think we saw there was this incredible opening a few years ago where, you know,

you know, docs were the new black and there suddenly was money for docs and there was support. And then I've seen that opening shrink where docs are content, but, you know, let's, you know, but we need them to be the content that accrues the most eyeballs and that, you know, so what, you know, what are the, you know, are they salacious enough? Are they quirky enough? Are they true crimey enough? You know, there's more categories that they have to sort of check boxes to make sure they maximize viewership. And I think that's a bit of a problem. So it's a bit, for me, it's a bit of a mixed bag, you know, sort of the warm embrace of,

you know, novelty. And let's talk for a minute since we have time. If we have time, the novelty aspect is interesting too, like, so why did docs become the new black? Well, docs became the new black because we had this sort of really fragmented informational ADD culture, right, where like everything's said in a tweet, and so people, I think, and newsrooms started getting shut because also we had this entertainment culture, you know, ABC, you know, Disney's buying ABC, you know, like all of our media, which, you know, we had the veneer at least of it being objective, you know, Disney's buying ABC, you know, like all of our media, which, you know, we had the

veneer, at least of it being objective, you know, suddenly became sort of, you know, more owned by entertainment places and having to answer to shareholder profits more than ever. So they started cutting their investigative newsrooms. So then suddenly it fell to documentarians became like the only place or source for people to actually get information. So that sort of drove the whole, you know, sort of culture of appreciation and shifting the culture towards more appreciation and hunger for documentary, you know, which really helped and fueled our work and was great for us. Because I also think given ADD culture and fragmented information, docs were the one place you would sit for 90 minutes with an issue and actually get informed, you know, and actually, informed and actually feel like you left with a perspective and sort of substance. And people are starved for that in this day and age. Marvel pictures? Is that the future of docs? Is it going to be who's crazier than the Tiger King

person? And who is the most vicious serial killer? And it's going to be a race for those kind of things. Yeah, no, I do agree with Amy that there is an overemphasis on true crime, just for true crime studies. And, you know, I think that there's a lot of projects being made in that area that I think, you know, I would like to see, you know, those filmmakers perhaps working in other areas. But for us, we really, as Amy said, tend to really develop our own projects. And oftentimes it's a very extensive development process where we will want to go in. You know, we will think perhaps there's something in this arena and then we'll spend a lot of time looking into that arena and coming across a story that, for the most part, in almost all cases, are stories that, I mean, on the record was a bit unusual for us, because in most of the case

of the films we make, we are coming across stories that, you know, haven't been reported on before, or haven't been reported on much before. And we're really looking for those stories so in that regard we it we we don't find ourselves in situations where we're competing with you know many other filmmakers for the same story because we have found the story um and that that also allows us to develop you know to when you come across a story first you know it's fresher um you're able to really examine it without you know a lot of other people having already sort of worked through that territory and you're able to open it up in a way that you might not otherwise be able to so so we you know as i said we we do tend to have a very involved development kind of process before we find our stories.

I wanted to ask quickly about having a film on a new service like HBO Max and what that means for understanding the success and the reach of the film. Do you have any sense of how many people will see it? And does that even matter to you guys? Is that something that you both think about? We're thrilled to be partnering with HBO Max. i mean they're a powerhouse i mean they have you know a history and a legacy that's formidable of making incredible incredible documentary work incredible fiction work i mean it's you know a absolute first class operation with an immense integrity and immense viewership i i think that the viewers, that whoever's, I think that HBO, people who subscribe to HBO will automatically be eligible for HBO Max from what I can understand. So that's a significantly large viewership. So it's great in that aspect as well. So I mean, I think it's,

I mean, I'm excited for the new platform and we're thrilled to be part of it and just thrilled and grateful for their courage and leadership and vision, honestly. It's amazing. You know, it's, you know, it's, you know, Apple and it's not, it wasn't certain the fate of this film, you know, and for it to be on this premier platform and for them not to blink says a lot. I like to end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen. Have you both been able to see anything exciting since you've been in quarantine? Actually, yes. I never

ever, ever watch anything. And my daughter's been harassing me to watch Succession and it's pretty phenomenal. It's amazing. It's one of our favorite shows at the ringer oh yeah god i mean like it's it's like it's like the closest thing i've seen contemporary finally finally getting kind of to shakespearean levels it's like you think so you know it's obviously there's some episodes that are weaker than others but overall the ambition the writing the conceit the the you know the the ideology you know the sort of oh my god it's staggering so go watch it what about you kirby yeah i just recently saw i think

a 1970 italian film uh investigation of Suspicion, which was just an incredible investigation of fascism and police power. And it was amazing. It was an amazing tour to force. I actually think it was nominated for Academy Award for Best Screenplay that year by a director called Petri. And it's really worth watching. I mean, it just it's really worth watching. I mean, it just it's fascinating in the way it looks at fascism. So we're complimenting

each other. I'm giving the pop culture fascism analysis and you're giving sort of the art school fascism analysis. It's why we're a good team. Yeah, I'm sensing the Venn diagram of your interests. Kirby and Amy, thanks so much for doing this. I appreciate it talking to you guys.

Thank you. It was wonderful. Thank you. Take care. Thank you to Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering. And thank you to Bobby Wagner. We'll be back next week on The Big Picture talking about Clint Eastwood. And then some more classic Hollywood movies after that. We'll see you then.