The Big Picture - ‘Highest 2 Lowest’ Is a N.Y. Movie State of Mind, With Spike Lee!

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Sean and Amanda start the show by reacting to a handful of recent movie trailers, including Emerald Fennell’s ‘Wuthering Heights’—starring Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi—and Nia DaCosta’s ‘28 Years Later: The Bone Temple’ (3:33). Then, they unpack Spike Lee’s newest film ‘Highest 2 Lowest,’ starring Denzel Washington and A$AP Rocky. They explore its very high highs and occasional low lows, Washington’s fascinating performance style, and what makes this film so different compared to the rest of Lee’s filmography (17:09). Next, they cover Darren Aronofsky’s ‘Caught Stealing,’ starring Austin Butler and Zoë Kravitz; they both found it quite disappointing, to the point that they even discussed whether or not Austin Butler is a “leading man” (39:54). Finally, Sean is joined by the legendary filmmaker Spike Lee to talk about his new movie. Lee reflects on the first time he visited Akira Kurosawa’s work and touches on what Kurosawa means to both himself and cinema at large, talks through Denzel Washington's brilliant improvisations in this film and explains why he is—in Lee's opinion—the greatest actor of all time, and explores what is missing from Hollywood and the filmmaking industry right now (1:07:01). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Spike Lee Producer: Jack Sanders This episode is sponsored by State Farm®️. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.®️ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is presented by State Farm. Life's full of decisions, big and small, and sometimes you make movie ones you can really stand behind. For example, I was wise enough to stick around through the mid credits during Ryan Coogler's sinners. And unlike my co-host, Amanda, I got to see a very special sequence with the great buddy guy, among other things. State Farm gets it. Making confident choices can make all the difference. That's why with the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create an affordable price for you. to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal

price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited a time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is the big picture of conversation show about New York. We're not in New York. We're in Los Angeles together. Hello. We made it. Big show. We made it back from Telluride. Back from Venice. Amanda traveled by ship for seven consecutive days from Europe.

to this beautiful country and we are here to talk to you about Spike Lee. There's a new Spike Lee movie that is now available on Apple TV Plus. It is called Highest to Lowest that stars one of our very favorite actors, Denzel Washington. And guess what, Spike Lee is on the podcast today. It's a real

why am I here? Whoa! You know what I mean? It's like no one cares. Let's just, I don't care. Let's just go straight to Spike Lee. It's very exciting. Spike was at the very top of the wish list for this show when we first started doing it eight years ago and very happily happy to have him on it to talk about this movie which is very fun we're also talking about another new yorker another new york movie sort of well it is darrenovsky has a new film that came out last week called caught stealing a crime thriller starring austin butler we'll get into that a little bit after we talk about highest to lowest uh what else news and notes news and notes yeah i mean some stuff happened while we were gone i didn't follow all of it it didn't seem like a lot yeah i felt like our timing was really really good this year.

Would you agree? I want to say thank you to Brian Raftery, of course, for the incredible work that he and Devin and everybody who worked on that show, yourself included on Mission

Accomplished while we were out traveling the world this summer. And while we were gone, I was like kind of keeping up. I took some time off for real, which was nice. But I never really felt

that tingling feeling of like, I wish we had an episode today. Right. The only news that hooked me in was weapons making 40 million plus on its first weekend. And I was like, whoa, that is, I, I, I didn't see that coming. I didn't see that coming partially because I was like, I will be on vacation.

That was a, it was a wrap for me. But I, I realized, oh, I need to see this. And, you know, it seemed like that had a real moment. And then otherwise people just took some time. Yeah, I mean, there were, there were plenty of movies, some of which I'm still catching up on in August. At some point this month we'll get into the freakier Fridays and the roses and all these other movies that we didn't get a chance to talk.

There were so many ads for The Roses in Paris when I was there. It was like every other block. It was Freakier Friday, Paris. Like Freakier Friday and then The Roses. Those were the two big movies. Yeah, I don't know how it's doing in France so far. I'm thinking about seeing the Roses today. Oh, that's exciting.

Yeah, because I think it's going to be out of theaters pretty soon. So I got to get after that one. There were a lot of trailers in the time when we were gone. A few that are quite notable to this show. I feel like the noisiest this week by far is. is Weathering Heights. Yeah. Which is Emerald Fennell's new feature film or third feature film with Warner Bros. coming out,

I believe, in February. February 14th, happy Valentine's Day. What's you, are you big on this book? Is this a classic for you? Soon, listen, I'm not going to dump on Wuthering Heights. I've always been in Austin instead of a Bronte girl. Okay. That's just, just like I'm a Nora Ephron instead of a Didian.

One is more in the, I mean, there are time periods. Austin is Regency, I think. Sorry. It's like late 1700s, early 1800s. And is a little more, they are class and straight-laced and funnier, social satire. They are, they are kind of more, like, tightly written. And the brontes are more like Gothic Victorian. longing, weird shit happening there's a crazy woman in the attic type and I think like slightly a little bit later time period

though again I don't have a PhD It appears that Weathering Heights has said in 1801 Oh okay so I'm wrong So they're overlapping but Unclear if that will be the case for the film Yeah yeah Well they're doing something period wise But anyway I don't know whether I'm like

More uptight or what It's really the difference between romantic comedy and, like, pining dramatic romance, sort of. And we know I go for romantic comedy. There have been a great many adaptations of Weathering Heights over the years. And this one is being pitched as, I guess, the Brat version relative to the trailer. Well, original songs by Charlie X, X, X, X,X, which I'm open to original music by Charlie XX in any context. Yeah.

And I think Fennell obviously likes that tonal clash that she's brought to her previous. these two films. This movie stars Margo Robbie and Jacob Allorty as Catherine and Heathcliff looks very dangerous and sexy. Yeah, but does it look that sexy?

I don't know. It looks like there's a lot of sex that they are trying to gesture towards or like half portray, which is different than sexy. See Saltfern. Do you think Allorty will unsheath his manhood? I don't actually. But

But I guess that would be exciting. Yeah, Jack is laughing. We're back! Yes! It's no laughing matter, Jacob Lurdy's Manhood, okay? Well, we'll see about that. But, you know, everyone's already mad at this movie because they're mad at Emerald Fennell, like the whitewashing of the original text, which again, I, like, I'm not a PhD. I don't even know the correct time periods of these books, so I'm not really, maybe I'll reread Wuthering Heights before.

That sounds really fun. February? They're good books. Jaynear is pretty good, too. I mean, you know, it's messed up. Jayr is boring as hell, but okay. What's wrong with you? Janeair is Charlotte Bronte?

Yes. Okay. Isn't Weathering Heights Emily Bronte's only novel? Yes, and then Charlotte is Janair. They're pretty good. Okay. Listen, I mean, it's like a crazy lady in the ad.

I would be more likely to go back to Jane Austen, I think. I similarly share stylistically. Sure. I do think it's McCartney and not Lenin, you know? It's like you and I have, but here's the thing is that it looks like I mean, and this is a trailer cut to Charlie X, but this looks a little to, like, Emerald Fennell is funny or tries to be funny, and this looks a little to arch and a little like, ooh, look at us being provocative to fit into what I understand to be the tone of Wuthering Heights. Now, you know, everybody's allowed to reinvent, but that was what I hiccuped on in the trailer. like just knowing I was being poked a lot

and the whole vibe of these books is that you're supposed to give yourself over to like the romance and the tragedy and like the swoon or the just like oh wow like everything's like really messed up of it all but not a lot of humor not a lot of room for winking in in the Brontes in my opinion.

That's an opportunity to adapt in a new way which could be cool. I'm incredibly mixed on Fennell's previous two films mixed negative. But I must say, watching the trailer, I thought at least to myself, I feel like this movie's going to work commercially. Oh, yeah. That, like, audience-wise, this is the kind of thing that we've been talking about, where

this is like a very familiar text, but someone putting a spin on it and we're not entering the cinematic universe of Emily Bronte, we're just entering this story and looking for someone to adapt it in a new way. So it seems like it could potentially be very successful. seems like pretty smart casting in terms of the two leads. Although Margo Robbie, I think, is a little old for this part. Not to age shame her, but isn't this person

supposed to be like 20 years old? Yeah, but like a lot happens to her if I understand who she's playing. Like what? Well, there are a couple, there's a Kathy, I don't know, it's complicated. Did you watch the trailer for 28 years later, The Bone Temple?

Yes, I watched all of the trailers on this list. I even added one. I see that, and we're going to get to that one. The Bone Temple. Are you ready to go back to the Bone Temple? Speaking of, Jacob of Lordy's manhood. She's Louise.

The Bone Temple is, it was the Ray Fines structure in question. We think so. There were certainly a lot of bones and he is featured in the trailer as well. He seems to play a prominent part

in this movie. And he is, so we at least know where we are. I thought this looked fine. I agree. This is the immediate follow-up to 28 years later, which came out in June,

directed by Nia da Costa, not Danny Boyle this time, bringing back much of the cast, including Jack O'Connell, who we saw at the end of that. film has featured prominently in this trailer, having quite a year as a villain, and it looked cool, didn't have that same ecstatic sensation that the 28 years later first trailer did, where we, you know, Chris and I in particular were like vibrating a little bit when we saw

that, but I'm interested. It looks like, you know, the visual language, the everything was set up in the original, and so there's like a continuity kind of built in, which is good. And it seems like it's holding that. It's not a dramatic departure from what we saw. Right. Yeah, it's maybe more just Maybe less soulful

Maybe more just like slash some zombies Which I guess that's what they would put in the trailer But you know I don't know what kind of spiritual showdown Ray Fines and Jack O'Connell are going to have Did he see the little boy in the trailer? Yeah We did, okay

Briefly at the end And then also maybe he's wearing a wig Just like Jack O'Connell at some point But that could have been another child I see okay Well those are arguably the two biggest new movies of January and February heading into next year. Okay.

Time just keeps marching on, you know? It's not going to go the other way, you know? Much as I would love for my back to be repaired and for my hair to be a little bit less gray. I know, but it's already September. I know, like, I was ready for back to school, but, you know, January and February, we have a whole fall to talk about. On my favorite time of the year.

I know. I could not be more excited. Is this thing on is coming out in this calendar year? It's coming out in December of the new movie from Bradley, Cooper starring Will Arnette and Laura Durn. Will Arnette plays a stand-up comedian who's at a difficult stage of his life. It just sounds funny to say it so earnestly. Well, this did seem pretty earnest and straight, right?

Like, and not in a bad way, but everything was, as you said, it's just Will Arnett telling some, like, not on funny, but pretty basic stand-up jokes about being divorced or going. through a divorce? Yeah. What is it with Bradley Cooper and just making movies about troubled relationships of male performers? I just, is there anything going on that he'd like to share? I don't know.

We'll have to revisit his work, get into the text a little bit. Think about what fascinates him as a filmmaker. Also, is he going to come out and be like, yeah, no, I always wanted to be a stand-up performer since I was five. Like, I, you know, I built like my own brick wall in my room. I'm so glad that release the tapes. I'm really glad that WTF with Mark Marin is not ending before this movie comes out, because I do really need his episode about the film, hopefully, including a discussion with Bradley Cooper.

Yeah, of course. Although with Will Arnett would be fun too. That's true. But he's a seasoned podcast, you know, we know he's very comfortable in that space. You know, is this thing on? I think it's the closing night film at the New York Film Festival. We will be there. I think I will be there for that screening.

You may not be. Yeah, I don't know. I hope it's good. I really like his previous two films. I love a star is born. I think MISRO is very interesting. Yes. And quite strange.

This looked like the most generic is an unkind word, but the most traditional, the least risky. Right. It seems like he heard our response to Mestro and took the just play it safe lesson, which is a bummer. That's not actually. Just because I had a lot of questions about Mestro that I want to pose to Bradley Cooper and a psycho. analytic space. That doesn't mean that I like I like that he went for it. Uh-huh. I do too. I admire the swing on my straw. Yeah. And this, but we don't know. It's just a trailer. Nothing risky about Die My Love, it appears. The new film from Lynn Ramsey, which premiered a can to mixed reception and a large acquisition from Mooby. This movie stars Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson. It has been communicated to us that it is a post-partum.

Yeah. Psycho Fantasia. Right. Thoughts? If only I had looked like Jennifer Lawrence postpartum, you know? I mean, I guess it's not too late. When does one stop being postpartum? I'm still, you know. I think in perpetuity, that's where you'll be. Okay, there we go. You have given birth.

Did you just a look at yourself? Did you just think about how it? I was just sort of like gathering it. I'm like, well, I don't know. I don't know whether that's going to have. And she looks great. I mean, it's just, it's a stylistic trailer of them just either dancing or fighting each other.

There's two really hot people who I like, seeming to go for it. I noted that one of the, with Jennifer Lawrence, Robert Pattinson, and the studio behind the substance, which I thought was fascinating. And is, I guess, a way to sell movies and maybe this movie in particular. It's like women on the edge because of a, like a challenging phase of life. You know, I'm excited for this. It does feel like it's already a little bit to the same. side awards

They chose not to bring it to any fall festivals It's not It wasn't a tell you right It's not going to be in New York Movie paid a tidy sum For it Well over $20 million

Which is a lot in this economy For a complicated eccentric film from Lynn Ramsey Who's not exactly Michael Bay But she's a great filmmaker And I'm usually more on board With psychotic explorations Of broken down people

That's kind of my bag But when it's a woman No I just saw If I had legs I'd kick you And I loved it Um, so I, I think that it's been written off by some people. Yeah. And, but for me, I'm really looking forward to it.

Okay. Um, and I did look like Jennifer Lawrence after I gave birth. So I feel like I can really relate to this story. Yeah. Anything else in the aftermath of your travels before we get into Spike's new movie? I didn't know. I'm, I'm really glad to do like 19 episodes a month every month for the rest of the year. It's really, really.

We have a lot of work to do. Really intense. And I. I did. I got home at midnight and then woke up, did school drop off. And then I just like started firing up movies. And I was like, I'm back, baby. You're back. Been sending a lot of emails, going to a lot of screenings. But it's nice to have some good movies on the horizon. That was the thing that was clear in the couple weeks before I went to tell you, right, going to the pre-screenings. I was like, oh, yeah. Movies I actually like. We know that. And that always happens. It does. And, you know, next year it will be the Odyssey is, what, July 21st.

And then we're going to take some time and I'm going to make you take some time because no one wants to hear from us. And then fall begins anew. I don't have, this is, I'm not reporting any information because I don't know anything. But I do think there's a possibility that the continuing adventures of Cliff Booth is also at the end of July next year. Oh. That seems plausible, right? Exciting it right now.

So maybe we could have a better summer than the one we had this year. Maybe. some cool stuff, but it was ultimately not great. But you don't think they would save that for festivals? I don't think it's going to be an awards movie. I could be wrong. All right. Could be wrong.

Yeah. But I don't think it is. Okay. We'll see. Okay. Let's talk about highest to lowest. I got to open the water bottle. Sorry.

Open it up. Reunited after a month. I was a month away from this water bottle. Wow. You didn't bring that with you. No, it's too large. How did you survive? Well, I had a smaller water bottle.

Did you have a more passion to embrace with a water bottle than your husband when you returned? No. But I had forgotten about it. Okay. And I had not forgotten about my husband or my children. It's a relief. But then I found it on my bedside table where I left it, literally, because I had been away from home for a month. And I'm really, really happy to see it.

Old, reliable. Yeah. Okay, let's talk about highest lowest. Directed by Spike Lee. This is Spike's 24th scripted feature. It's interesting. This is his first movie in five years. And that's the longest period of time that has transpired between movies since Spike started making movies in the early.

early 80s, which I thought was kind of interesting. We can talk about maybe why that is and what that means relative to the movie business. It's the screenplay is by Alan Fox, and it's based on high and low, the Akira Kurosawa masterpiece from 1963, and also King's Ransom, which is an Ed McBain story from 59, the Kurosawa based his movie on. It stars, as I mentioned, Denzel Washington, Jeffrey Wright, Ilfinesh Hedera, and Aesap Rocky. As always, it's cut by Barry Alexander Brown and Allison C. Johnson. cinematography, a reunion with Maddie Libitique,

one of the great cinematographers out there. It's about a movie where a powerful music mogul is targeted by a ransom plot. He's forced to fight for his family and his legacy while he's jammed up in a life-or-death moral dilemma. The threading of this story is very much the same as the Kurosawa film in which the very successful person, we think at first that his child has been abducted when, in fact, it is someone who is close to him in his life who does not have as much power in the world. And so he is left to decide whether or not he will attempt to help and save this person in his life's child. So, highest to lowest, what did you think of the movie?

You put Denzel Washington in a Spike Lee New York movie, and I'm going to have a good time. I'm going to love it. And I'm going to respond to everything that's good about it. So I really liked this movie in spite of some quite noticeable flaws that we can discuss. but I do think that they have a magical alchemy and Spike obviously has a magical alchemy with the city of New York, which is a city I love and miss living in.

So it had several moments where like, oh, they're all back together where it kind of transcends what is otherwise a slightly puzzling assemblage of actors and material. Yes. This is a, I should be fired for saying it's a movie with high highs and low lows,

but it is. I mean, it really is, in some ways, it's a tale of two movies, and its heights leave you, I left me loving the movie, ultimately, because the first half of the movie, I think, is much more, is it much tighter and much more artificial feeling than the thrilling and kind of like emotionally bracing second half of the movie? And we can talk about the choices that are made in the first half versus the second half and why the movie is that way. But there's a lot of things about it that I find really interesting. Spike's been very pointed about the fact that he sees this as like a reimagining and not a remake

that it's not meant to be specifically high and low and that's a lot to live up to because high and low is it's one of curse I was late period movies considered one of his very best movies this is unusual territory for Spike Lee not in New York City but the character David King

that Denzel plays because David King is an extremely wealthy successful older man. There's never really been a protagonist in a Spike movie like that before. Right. And Spike Lee is a very successful older man. Yeah. And this is a movie like it's a class fable, right? It's about

haves and have-nots and what the have-nots will do to an attempt to disrupt the haves. And it's also this moral quagmire that is also in the original film. And you know, most of Spike's movies are about working class people. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, they're about regular people who live in the city and sometimes outside of the city and sometimes in the midst of war and sometimes in other situations. But the movie is really interesting because it's dotted with all these ideas about cancel culture and, you know, online celebrity and how wealth and power really operates and what it means to have a legacy versus what it means for

your family to inherit a legacy. There's all pretty new terrain for him. And you can kind of feel him feeling around. Yeah. Because Spike is not an inherently conservative filmmaker, but He's had so much success that some of these ideas, like, they feel a little bit like your dad talking to you, which I find, I found to be really fascinating and ultimately made the movie actually more exciting for me personally. Yeah, and they are also paired with, I think, like, a Denzel performance. And one wonder is like a little bit of Denzel's own influence, another, you know, older, very successful, wealthy man. Yes. Should state that he also brought this script to Spike to direct. Right. So then you start to wonder how much. of that character is, and the portrayal is them working together, how much of it is what

Denzel wants to do, because obviously he's one of our great actors and someone with his own ideas of how to play stuff. And so, yeah, it feels maybe not as if you're watching a double autobiography, but to a filmmaker and actor and an actor working through some of their thoughts about their phase in life and their phase in their careers in one movie. It's so fascinating too because, you know, Denzel, of course, played a musician in a spike movie many years ago. He's a music executive in this movie.

He's not, he's not a working stiff. He's not an artist. Yeah. And this is a movie about what powerful people who are proximate to artists do and what's asked of them, which is really interesting. It's also another movie about a manager. Yeah, which I was thinking after our conversation on whatever night that was. It's really fascinating.

The king character. reminded me of a lot of people in the music business. When I was a music journalist, I encountered a few of these people over time. The person who really reminded me of was Elliot Reed, who I had the chance to spend a little bit of time with when I was in New York and had that kind of like smooth, charismatic, hyper attentive, but also idiosyncratic way of being in the world, which David King, the Denzel character really has.

This is kind of a funky Denzel performance. I'm curious what you thought about it, because it's very mannered. He's doing a lot. You know, he's very gestural. Right. his deliveries this goes back to Gladiator 2 as well which I thought was very gestural

and kind of all over the place in a way that is like he holds the screen so well right he's the most magnetic dude ever but he's doing a lot and you can hear Spike even in our conversation talk about how Denzel is kind of constantly just like making a choice which I thought worked overall

and also because I think for a person like this these are kind of people who you always know they're in the room when you're in the room with them yeah but there's not that stillness that you find in like the equalizer. This is a guy who's kind of all over the place. Right.

Which I don't, I didn't mind. I think if you play this character with this moral, you know, quagmire as Denzel, as like, you know, the great, like, stately Denzel who is confident and who we know, even when he plays villains, there is some sort of righteousness and you want to believe in Denzel, then it doesn't. If that Denzel is in this movie, then you're like, we know what you're going to do. You know, there's no tension here. And maybe there's not a huge amount of tension in the first half itself of what he should or shouldn't do. I don't know whether the stakes of the movie are, you know, really set up in the way that we might like.

Not realized completely. But it does feel it's interesting. You are kind of scratching your head throughout. And then I do also think that, at least from Denzel's perspective, it's all laid up to the final scene of the movie and when the performance kind of clicks into place for me. And what he wants to be doing as someone who both has an idea of like a very confident, successful person who is maybe not facing a crisis of confidence, but it's like the world is downing him and then he gets to a point

where he can then be the kingmaker again and you kind of see what it means to him and I guess like because the sorry spoilers the final scene the final scene is in the trailer which is sort of confusing but it's him watching someone else perform so someone was also like oh you're gonna have to be

gestural in order to communicate anything in the scene which is clearly important to you So I understood it in that way. But yeah, I don't know. It's Denzel. I'm always happy with it. No, I thought it was appropriate for the character. It's a very interesting character.

So, like I said, he reminded me a little bit of L.A. Reed. There's definitely like some Quincy Jones in there. There's some Russell Simmons in there. There's maybe a little Jay-Z in there. This is somebody who lives in a giant high-rise with multiple balconies on Front Street and Dumbo. Right. it's a new kind of Brooklyn than the one that you might see

and do the right thing and like I like the idea of Spike like returning to this space and portraying how the city has changed. Yeah. He has a lot of access to that world. To the strains of,

oh, what a beautiful morning from the opening song of Oklahoma. That's right. Which as soon as that kicked off and there's like these beautiful all drone shots, but of quote unquote new Brooklyn. And I was like,

oh, Spike. You still got it. Yeah, and also reckoning with, like, the passage of time, you know, exactly. And that's a big part of the movie. And the movie and the way that King fits into this world is super cool because throughout the film, you know, Spike is always showing these kind of signifiers for what is going on in their characters' lives or how their conflicts represent something that has happened in the past. But in David King's house, you know, it's like Cahende Wiley paintings, Baskiats, that famous portrait of Tony Morrison. you've got all of these photographs of great musicians, Miles Davis, James Brown,

Stevie Wonder, Jimmy Hendricks, all of these kind of signposts of greatness. And King is at this place where he's sold a record label that he started, some decades ago, five years earlier, and he's kind of lost control of his own company. He stayed at the company during that time.

And so before the events really kick off, we learned that he's trying to buy the company back. He's trying to buy back his creative integrity in addition to his legacy. And so he's at this vulnerable moment. And you have to get on board with this for the movie to make sense because in theory, someone like this would have $100 million or $300 million. Right.

And he is in a much more compacted financial state. And because of that, when this kidnapping happens, he has to make a really hard choice once we realize that it's not his son who's taken, but someone else's son. And in this case, his best friend, long-time childhood friend, and also a personal driver. Played by Jeffrey Wright. To me, the movie is that it's very best all the way up until the end when Denzel and Jeffrey Wright are talking to each other.

Jeffrey Wright, I thought, was, like, magical in this movie. It's such a different part than the last four or five parts that he's played. And he's a guy who's had more personal struggles and is a faithful person and has, like, accepted this role inside of David King's elaborate life and has to be obsequious to him at all times. but also clearly has like a lot of rage, really complicated character who doesn't have a lot of dialogue but I thought was really cool and I like watching them together.

I love the scene where it's like these are two the best and they're bouncing on each other really, really well but there is something a little bit flat about the first 40 or so minutes of explicating the plot and what's happening

and creating the world of King's family. I thought the two actors who played his wife and his son were just, like, not up to par with Denzel and Jeffrey Wright. It was, it was confounding. Yeah, it's tough. And then also when the police and the investigators come in, there are, and it's, there is a healthy skepticism for the police throughout the movie, but also it's just many bad actors, which is, and it's very, very confusing. It feels very law and order.

It's, I mean, it's almost. like this scene in Megalopolis when the, forgive me, the Saturday Night Live actress. Chloe Feynman. When Chloe Feynman just botches a line reading and it's just still in the movie, there are a few line readings in this one from people where you're like, so we didn't have one other take. Yeah. Yeah. So that is a little confusing and especially like when next to Denzel and Jeffrey Wright.

That's really the issue is if this were a lesser movie with lesser talents, you'd be like, well, this is just a mediocre movie. But you've got kind of mediocre movie stuff happening in the first hour. Right. alongside, you know, a couple of really, really gifted people. And the movie also, it's attempting to do something kind of interesting that doesn't ultimately work, which is it's attempting to be this, like, classical melodramatic 50s chamberpiece where people are kind of storming in and out of rooms

and you've got this Howard Drosson scores, like, really loud. It's distracting to me. Moving over the dialogue. And I got to be honest, in the first 40 minutes, I was like, ooh, gosh. Yeah. I'm not sure if this is really clicking in exactly the way that I wanted it to. Now, I'm not clear how intentional a lot of this is, but there's a sort of a break where the film moves from this chamber piece

into more or less like an action detective movie. Yes, and they leave the apartment. It's going in and out of nice rooms for 40 minutes. I just want to note the apartment's number is 824. Yes, the one he visits. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, oh, I thought also his penthouse.

Oh, it's his penthouse as well? The one that he knocks on the door of later in the film is also. True. I mean, I could be wrong, but I was pretty sure that it was both. Okay. Anyway. No, but it's, so they finally leave the house and you also get the dolly shot at like all at once. And then suddenly the move comes alive. And it is that, you know, that moment signaling to you like, okay, now we're actually, now this movie is going to be doing things.

Yeah, there's a couple of the classic spike double dolly shots. One with the cop, right, where the cop is sort of narrating what's about to transpire. Right. But that is like that is when they leave the apartment. Yes. And that's kind of when the movie takes off. Exactly. Because it's the, and it's setting up, like, the great set piece of the movie where they're going to try to do the money drop and exchange. But it's on the balcony and then things take flight.

Yes. And it almost feels like Spike shaking you and being like, it's my time now. Like I've gotten through this stage of the movie. Now, it's a little challenging. And the reason it pops out to me as much is because you could make the case that the first half of high and low is the best. stuff because it's so it's it's famed for its incredible blocking and the way that we see the inside of the apartment for the you know the king character in that film uh it's so clever and gorgeous and it feels like he's in conversation with alfred hitchcock at that time who also was kind

of a master of that kind of work in this case you know spike is incredible about being outside in new york you know the exteriors the like the emotionality the music the sounds of the city That's something he's so talented at. And as soon as he goes outside and King goes on this journey to drop this bag, $17.5 million in Swiss francs, the movie just takes off.

You see his interest in the people of New York. The way that commuter travel works in the city, the way the Yankee fandom operates, the way that the Puerto Rican Day parade works and using Eddie Palmieri is this like a musical centerpiece of a movie after having listened to 40 minutes of the Drossin score. It's like such a great change

up. Right. And the movie takes flight and it's basically like pretty much an hour of excitement and intrigue and it reminds me a lot of inside man. You know, you know, the inside man where you're just like, I'm just locked in on this movie. So I ultimately came out really, really liking it quite a bad. I mean, I did as well. There's a there is a second set piece in the second half that I don't totally want to spoil except, you know, ASEF Rocky is in this movie. Yeah. What did you think of Rocky? I thought it was great. He's really good. He's really good and he's also used really well and they have like a rap battle of sorts

that is like imagined and filmed very creatively and I just like I was laughing I was really fixated on it. They have a connection. So yeah, it is 40 minutes of head scratching and then a very exciting New York movie. Yeah, I agree. Rocky was really, really great.

And that scene is the best scene in the movie. Yeah. Their confrontation and... I was impressed by Denzel's ability to start. Sure, but yeah, but come on, it's Denzel. They are really going toe to toe to with one another. And it is, it is, it was very exciting and very fun to watch them together in that way. And Rocky, you know, as opposed to some of the other actors in the movie, really holds his own opposite Denzel.

I mean, he really, he looks like he belongs. I just saw him in if I had legs, I'd kick you as well. And I was like, oh, he's, he's a real actor. This is not a sideline for him at all. Yeah. I think this is quite good and quite different from what Spike and Denzel have done before. It's definitely late period stuff, right?

Where it's like you've got to have a few familiar hallmark moves. You've got to make a movie that is a little bit more about the stage of life that they're in right now. This is not Malcolm X. You know what I mean? Like their personal interests are very divergent. And I think the movie resolves itself like pretty well. the final sequence

not the singing sequence but the sequence before that is kind of fascinating because you can see that you know Spike has a little anxiety about gangster rap and he always has he loves hip hop

he's always loved hip hop public enemy prominently featured in his second feature and one of the most important needle drops in music history but young felon

Rocky's character and kind of what young felon represents and someone who call themselves young felon is interesting and him looking at a generation that is way behind him, 30 years, 35 years younger than him.

You can sense some of his concern, the ways in which David and his son talk about what it would mean or not mean to pay the ransom and how that would come down on his son. Right. And there's that critical conversation that they have where King is saying something to his son that is very funny where he's like,

dad's social media is all over me. They're killing me because of this because they say it's my fault, that my friend got kidnapped when they wanted to kidnap me. And he's like, you've got to ignore that. You got to just turn that off. And his son looks into me. He's like, I can't.

And that's a very resonant concern. You know, like, that's something that obviously young people are just like, I can't not look at Instagram and not feel bad about my station in life. So it's cool that I think he was able to like win some of that stuff into the story and what might have been in different hands, like a more road examination of the generation gap. Yeah. I mean, it feels like a part of the. story as opposed to now I will insert several scenes where I'm like mad at the youth about their

social media usage so it you know it does make sense it is also when you were watching this first 40 minutes you are thinking you know they are natural thoughts that came to my head at least I was like okay come on but like we know this that and the other meaningly in terms of how the choices are going to be made yeah yeah yeah he has to do what he ends up doing there's no way he's going to be able to not pay the ransom. Yeah, that would be absurd. Yeah. But the idea that like somebody also older, who's like, I worked so hard for this wealth,

and I will not have someone take it away from me because they say I have to because it is my responsibility. Yeah. That's a very boomer concern. You know, that's a-it is really boomer. That's a real thing that is working in our society right now. And even the lack of exploration of all the other ways. that this money could have been gotten because I don't have $17.5 million in any currency. But your point about it, it's like he's surrounded by Baskiats and all of this art.

He lives in this penhouse. You know, it's kind of like, where's our cash flow? Like, what's our allocation here? What are we willing to give up and not give up? Yep. Which is, and but the movie doesn't even really go there, which is extremely boomer. That's and that, but that all, I don't know how purposeful that is, you know, because you can see all of the, the Kuchaman in his house, these are all production decisions made by Spike in his team. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't think that that was in the script that there were three Baskiots sitting in David King's living room, but there are Baskiats sitting in Spike Lee's living room. And in fact, most of the art is in the film are replicas of art in his collection. So, yeah, it's like, it is a little bit of a portal into the mind of a 60 years. 70-something, very successful black American artist or executive or however you wanted to find them. And I'm grateful for that. You know, like he's not really made a movie that is about this, even though he's lived in this

atmosphere for a while. So, it's a lot of fun. It's pretty successful. There's a moment when he's riding in the Rolls-Royce in the front seat alongside Jeffrey Wright, when they've decided that they have to go find young felon. The cops are not helping them and the movie is very funny about the fact that the cops are always there but not helping.

They're always present, but they're incompetent or they're just rude. But he's driving and James Brown's the payback hits and Denzel puts his head down and he just starts shadow locks to himself and back and forth.

It's really good. And I was like this is movie magic. This is what we want. This is how we want to feel. How do you not? But how do you not give yourself over to it? It's pretty special. Why was this only in theaters for two weeks before? You know?

I don't know. It's available on Apple now? It's available on Apple TV Plus where the majority of its audience will find it. Watch it. I think people should watch it. I think it's fun. I think it's a good time with some nice subterranean ideas. And to Apple, I'd like to say never again.

Don't ever do this again. Please never, ever put a Denzel Washington movie straight to streaming. I do not understand it and I do not appreciate it. Yeah. Okay, caught stealing. Yeah. Directed by Darren Aronofsky. This is his ninth feature film.

There's Austin Bellar right there. It's written by Charlie Houston. It's based on his novel. I heard from our pal David Shoemaker that he was stunned that this was even being adapted and that Houston was able to adapt it himself. It's just fairly uncommon these days. Usually what happens is the novelist gets a first pass at the script.

And then they say, thanks for your efforts. And then they get somebody to rewrite it. I don't know if that happened in this case. But Houston is solely credited. movie stars Austin Butler, Regina King, Zoe Kravitz, Matt Smith, Leah Friber, Vincent Donofrio, Benito Martinez Ocasio, who you may know as Bad Bunny, Griffin Dunn. We'll come back to that.

Carol Kane. It's a movie about a guy living in an apartment on the Lower East Side, and one day his neighbor knocks on his door and asks him to take care of his cat. He's going on a trip for a couple of days. And this guy, a bartender named Hank and a former baseball prospect, gets into some hijinks because of this. cat care that he is forced to take

what do you think of caught stealing I found this movie implausible on several levels on a story level and you know and that but really more on a movie on a tonal movie level it wants

to be outrageous and funny and I guess it's a little gross but I didn't think it was that funny. I found it it's Aronovsky doing a lot of action set pieces and apparently especially

driving cars and they weren't bad but they definitely felt like someone put on their like action hat and was like okay now I'm going to race a car. It just all felt a little, it felt forced. Yeah. And

I mean that didn't mean that I had a bad time but it did not. I didn't buy it, you know? Yeah, I think we're more or less in the same place. It's weird to see one of the defining disagreements of this show is... Is Aronovsky? Is Aronovsky good?

Yeah, and I think this was... I don't know if he's bad, but I just thought this was, like, kind of fake, you know? I agree. I felt like he was trying on somebody else's clothes. Yeah, in the way that, like, a lot of his movies just kind of feel a little, like, I know you'd like to be this guy, but... See, you don't got it. I think he comes to the insane psychology of all of his protagonists very honestly.

I don't think he's ever taken on a movie where I didn't think that he believed that this was the most important story to be told ever. From Pie to Requiem for a Dream to The Fountain to... Okay, but what about like the whale? I think he completely believed in that movie. And that movie has a lot in common with Mother and this is the extremity of expression. Right? That's the thing that he is so interested in, is like the pain and the inability to connect with the world around him. Like, that's true of all of his characters, Black Swan, you know, this idea of delusion and disassociation in the wrestler, people who are outsiders, who feel lost, who feel fucked up. These are the people that he is usually making movies about.

Right. And if you watch pie, you can really see, like, the grounding for that. We're going to talk about Robert Altman next week. Robert Olman's style of filmmaking could not be more different from Darren Aronofsky's. But their interest in people is kind of similar. Robert Alman made a ballet movie. Yeah. You know, Robert Altman made movies about a lot of artists.

Like, there's something in common. Coth Stealing is like a movie about a hot bartender who got into some trouble. Well, right. It's like there's nothing else to it. Well, that's also a little bit the wail. And the further he's gone in his career, I think he's run out of scripts or people. people who legitimately have that separation from the world, that disillusionment. And so he's trying to graft whatever that feeling is onto situations that he doesn't have any sort of connection to.

And so, like, you know. That was your take on mother. Sure. And the whale. And a little bit this. I didn't like the whale, but it felt at least consistent to me with what he was going after. This to me is like, this is an Austin Buller movie. I mean, he's one of the most handsome dudes in the world.

Yeah, exactly. There's not a lot that he's alienated because of his injury. The red carpet photos of Aronovsky with his cast are just absolutely priceless. I haven't seen them. They're just personal. Was he wearing a scarf? Yeah, sometimes. But it's, I have been, there have been so many photo calls for this.

And also, it worked because many of my friends were like, so why is Zoe Kravitz dating Harry Stiles? I thought she was dating Austin Butler. And I was like, no, no, no. They were just promoting a movie. And I don't think it worked to get you to see the movie, but at least. So it worked. But Aronovsky just like trying to hang with all of these beautiful hot people. I feel a little for, you know, it's hard to old.

It's hard to age. These are the travails. As I demonstrate every day. Yeah. I, let's have an Austin Butler conversation. Okay. I believe that he's good. Right.

Is he miscast in this? Is he a leading man? Oh, rude. One? I'm just asking. Well, no, I think that I think that he's. I think he's a talented actor. I think he's Brad Pitt.

That's a high compliment. Sure, but we often say that Brad Pitt is, you know, a character actor and a leading man's body, that our favorite performances are either when he's on the side being goofy or, you know, the serendipity of like, you know, your one perfect shining moneyball moment. But otherwise, he's better when he's not, like, Meet Jill Black is not the pinnacle of Brad Pitt's career. It's not. So I think... News flash.

Yeah. Me, Joe Blackheads. Sorry. Amanda has decreed. No, I know what you're saying. To me, it's more like is, like a river runs through it. Yeah. Is a movie that captures...

He could absolutely nail a river runs to it. That's what I was going to say. That's a movie where he is the co-lead of that movie. Right. He does not have a lot of dialogue. He has a storm inside of him in the film. You know, he's the more complex brother opposite Craig Sheffer. and that quietness helped him a lot.

Right. Butler's asked to do a lot here, has to carry a lot. And the movie, I think, does him a little bit of a disservice with a choice that it makes in the story about halfway through, which I understand why the choice is made, and I think it seems like it's true to the novel.

Right, and it sets up the thing. Yes, it creates the action, but it kind of ruins the movie. And so if you don't want to know what this is, anymore um but spoiler alert about 45 minutes an hour into the movie zoie cravitz's character who is his girlfriend is murdered he discovers her dead body you know zoie cravitz obviously a very special living human but is is the the the vibe the heartbeat of the film and their relationship is like the only nice thing in the movie everything else sucks it's just like grimy and gross

and angry yeah and bleeding and I mean, even that, she has to, like, super glue his cut together. She does. She does, but she's a healer. She's a paramedic, which is really funny. Yeah, okay, she's a paramedic wearing orange lingerie to, you know, resuscitate someone on duty. Sure. God, God bless her.

You know, life contains multitudes. Yes. You're saying you have never done that before. But she's killed in the movie. And then the movie becomes a chase movie where he's got to find the money and escape and elude his captors. but the movie just kind of kind of just died for me when she left the movie. Right. And I mean, I wonder if that's a little bit of like who's responding to who.

I know what you're saying about Austin Butler. I am who I am. I know what you're saying about Austin Butler. And the Brad Pitt thing really looms large for me because this, this movie like kind of wants to be a Guy Ritchie movie or is, or like, or is signaling that? It's confused, right? But you can't watch it without thinking of Guy Ritch movies. I think the trailer kind of forced it. that on us. Just because there was so much Matt

Smith doing like, oy, oh, right. And that's because I thought he was good in this movie. You always think he's good. Well, you know, but it's also a little bit of like let people be what they're good at. And so watching Austin Butler try to be like a corn fed, you know, baseball loving,

just like normie in the midst of all of this is a little confusing. Like you want Brad Pitt and snatch. Like just let him be weird like everybody else. Yeah, he's definitely not weird enough. I think it's just because the character is not written to be all that weird. Griffin Dunn's role in this movie is obviously a callback to After Hours. And that's another movie that I think this movie wants to kind of be.

Well, sure. It wants to be a late night 90s, New York. I want to be Christy Turlington, you know? Do you? Yeah, she seems pretty. Would you want to spend all that time with Edward Burns? You don't think Zach looks like Edward Burns? I think that they look a lot alike.

No comment on that. Oh, you don't. Right. He doesn't like it. But I think Edward Burns is handsome. and the pride of Long Island Edward Burns

Yeah And also I'd love to look like Christy Turlington She's doing important work Philanthropic work Is that true? Yeah

She has like a whole foundation For moms And childbirth Across the world That's great Yeah I like seeing Griffin done I wish this was more

Like after hours Yeah It's not really there I wish it were more Like a Guy Ritchie movie I wish it were more like a Did you think Talk to me

about the cultural stereotyping of the movie Right You've got Bad Bunny as a seemingly tough but maybe not so tough Latino club owner. You've got Regina King as a tough talking, maybe corrupt New York City cop, some shades of Southland. The cop show that she was on some years ago. You've got Matt Smith as a Mohawked British faux punk. Right.

You've got Vincent Dinoffrio and Leib Schreiber as two Hasidic Jews who are up to no good in Los Angeles, or in New York, rather. And you've got, who am I forgetting? Any other cultural stereotypes that are being, you've got Action Bronson doing absurd stuff in the bar. Right. And then, not really a stereotype, more of a... Oh, the Russian mobsters. Oh, of course.

Yeah. Yes. Who were also funny. The Baldies, who are Ukrainian, right? Are they Ukrainian? Well, there's some discussion about whether they are, because they're near little Ukraine, but then Regina King is like, no, they're part of the...

And then she's like, no, they're in the... mob and then Awesome Mettler's like, yeah, but they weren't speaking Italian and she was like, no, Russian mob. I mean, which is, listen, this is the level that we're working on. Is this meant to be like funny? Like a meta-textual comments on these kinds

of characters? I think it's like supposed to be winking, but again, it doesn't really come across. No. Right. Yeah, and obviously there is legitimately you know, the Dennis Farina, Benicio del Toral characters in Snatch who are doing the tacit criminals thing. It's very funny, very

memorable at some of the best stuff in that movie. So I'm like, is this a wink at that? What is that meant to be? Right. Like, it's, I think it's trying to do a lot of things. But like I said, none of it really comes together. How do you feel about the Met's energy in this? Well, let's talk about it.

So there's a scene that takes place at Shea Stadium, which is, of course, no longer where the New York Mets play. It is in part digitally recreated. Did they blow it up? They didn't blow it up. What did they do with it, Jack? I think they knocked it down. Did they knock it down? I'm pretty sure. City Field is there now. It's not in the same spot.

Oh, it's not? They didn't build it on the same land. It's on a different piece of line than flushing. I don't think we said that this is said in like 1998. Yes. Well, we can say it now. Well, there's a lot of baseball in the movie, in part because Butler's character is a baseball prospect who gets into a car accident when he's drinking and driving kills his friend and

badly injures his leg. And so he's not able to continue playing. But he remains a huge baseball fan and is following the Giants. That's his team. Right, right. The Giants and the Mets are in a playoff race. And so there's a lot of checking in. Christopher Mad Dog Russo famously makes an appearance

via radio in this film of a voice I grew up listening to In 1998 I was no doubt listening to Mad Dog Talk about baseball There's a scene that takes place at this reimagined Shea We get on the subway, the seven line Headed to Shea It was okay It was nice to see

Headed to or headed from Headed on the way back How does he get there in the first place Does he drive there? Or maybe they just drive to Flushing Meadow Yeah, they go to it because that's where they're going to meet the other people and then there's a I don't really know. Yeah, I mean, look, I've definitely spent a lot of time at Shea in the 90s and, you know, it was a shithole. It was our shit hole.

Yeah. But it was a shit hole. It was not a nice stadium. There's a reason they don't play there anymore. So it's weird to be like, ah, the good old days. It's awesome. The Mets sucked. We hope they would be good, you know, but they were certainly the little brothers of the New York Yankees who were about to enter the greatest glory period in the last 25.

years in baseball. And I guess he's a Giants fan because this is like Barry Bonds era. I think he grew up in San Francisco is the impression that I got. Oh, no. His mom is in San Francisco. No, I mean, I know that. But, like, you could put, you could put them anywhere. He had bonds is in the film, right?

Yeah. At the very end. Yeah. Which, the ending also sucks. Sorry. Yeah. I didn't like that either. That's so stupid.

It's weird. There's plenty of stuff in this movie that I kind of enjoyed. I didn't have, I wasn't bored. I'm not mad. Yeah, I'm not mad. I was a little. Don't put in the paper. that Amanda is mad.

But I really do want us to get a prop that's just a newspaper that says I'm mad that I can hold out from time to time. Okay. But... You should call the Salsberger family. I was a little bored. Mm-hmm. But that's okay.

But I was not mad. I was just kind of like, this isn't really jelling, but I like enough of these people that I'll keep watching. Yeah, I think I'm more or less with you. Also, I was in a movie theater. So I didn't fall asleep

and I was incredibly jet-lagged. So... Good sign. Is it? I mean, it's not bad. This movie got dumped. Why did it open on August 29th? There's famous people in it.

It's propulsive enough. I think for a general audience, it will be more or less satisfying. You know, it's just a crime thriller. It's a New York crime thriller. It's really no more, no less. With the exception of the occasional the gore that Aronovsky is usually into.

And it was quite gross. It is. There's a lot of blood and there's a lot of... There's more poop than I needed. I'm dealing with enough in my day-to-day life. Understandable. We get the, even the cockroach and the opening title sequence. I don't know. Bugs are fine.

Okay. But it's kind of a strange moment. I noted here, Aronovsky, every single movie that he's directed has either been recognized by Bafta, the Golden Globes, the Oscars, or won a prize at Sundance. He's had a pretty hallowed career. He's got some films that I think are masterpieces. he's got films I think are failures but are really interesting. I know you're a lot less connected to him and find him a little annoying at times

but he's very, very talented and as a cinema artist, right? You'd say he's like in a class of guys from the 90s that defined a period of time at the movies. Absolutely. And Black Swan obviously was a massive hit too. So he's got that under his belt as well. And this movie is like very quickly going to be a movie that never happened.

You know, it's not going to be part of some legacy and I don't mean to demean him, but you just know. It's like Sony kind of dumped this movie and made $9 million, and then it's going to be on Netflix. Everybody's going to watch it on Netflix because of the output deal

that Sony has with Netflix. And maybe that's where its life will be. It'll be just another studio programmer that people won't even realize it's Aronovsky, but I'm just kind of, I'm fascinated by the decision to even make the movie.

The movie does feel like he thought he was doing something else or he thought that he had more nailed down than he did. And that doesn't mean that it's bad, which is not very good. Do you think there's something telling about the fact that this is a Mets movie and highest the lowest is a Yankees movie? You tell me.

How are the Mets doing right now? Dare I ask? It's late. It's early September. It's okay. Things are getting tense. It's okay. Okay.

I have not really checked in. So what's up with baseball right now? The Phillies are almost certainly going to win the division. Okay. That's great news for my house. The Cubs and Brewers are firmly in the playoffs. Oh. Oh, all right. Congratulations to the Chicago Cubs.

The Dodgers and the Padres are also almost certainly in the playoffs. Okay. Which means that the Mets are right now in the third wild card spot. How many wild card spots are there? Three. Oh, okay. There are four games ahead of the San Francisco Giants, Austin Butler's favorite team. And they should make the playoffs with 20-some-odd games to go.

If they don't, it's going to be a tough September on the big picture. Okay. Just want you to know. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm used to that at this point. That's why I was temp checking it. But last year was a total change of pace.

Okay. Last year was a wonderful time this time of year. They actually struggled in September last year and then turned it on at the end of the season. They didn't. You got because I remember I was about to give birth and you guys were just like fucking melting down every single day. And I was like I have some other issues to deal with right now. I Jack Sanders was not melting down.

Yeah, you held it together and got me coffee cake, which was really nice. So Jack, you're number one forever. I and then October I remember I was like five days old and we were watching playoff games and those were excruciating A glorious moment From the perspective of a Phillies fan

Which I am for about two weeks every year It's a great time I mean the Phillies I don't I'm not sure that they have the juice either this year so No I don't think so I mean they need to have they learned how to hit the ball Because when they hit they don't pitch And when they pitch they don't hit

But that's true of the Mets as well It's like too good but not great franchises right now. Braves are done? Braves are done, unless they're playing the Mets, in which case they are annihilating the Mets. Yeah. It's been a complicated season.

So the thing that has happened that you actually may hear Jack and I gnatering about both on and off mic is that they've now called up two of their three big pitching prospects, and the first of which has been probably the most important new person to come into my life in a long time. What's his name?

Nolan McLean. Nolan. His nickname, which I don't think is going to stick, is Cowboy Otani. Because he was formerly a two-way player. He was a hitter and a pitcher, and now he has just put his time into pitching. Okay. He's nasty. Okay.

He's really exciting. And he shut down the Phillies a week and a half ago. And then the other kid is Jonah Tong. Jonah Tong is a 22-year-old boy wonder. A wee little man with an unusual... Is that younger than you, Jack? That is younger than me. How does it feel?

It feels completely fine. Okay. Life comes for you fast. I think you'll enjoy Jonatong. A very happy kid. Oh, that's nice. The kids are saying he's whimsical. Wimcical. He embraces wimsy.

That's cute. That's nice. What's his walk-up song? I don't know. Actually, there was some noise about this on Twitter, but I can't remember exactly what it was. And you guys call yourself Mets fans. I couldn't watch his star because I was at the Tellerad Film Festival. So I was literally just watching clips sitting beside Chris Rosen, fellow Mets fan, just being, I think, did Bruce Springsteen end?

And we were like, what happened with the Mets? I should tell you how I feel about the Springsteen movie. Jets? Bad? We'll see. Sunday. Showdown with former quarterback Aaron Rogers and the Pittsburgh Steelers. How exciting.

Week one. I have one more sports question for you. So what's going on with Kwai Leonard? I saw a headline. I didn't click through anything. This is like explained Fortnite to me, but instead, Quiet Leonard, go. The, you know, acquaintance of art.

friend Pablo Torre reported on his podcast that a sort of shell company slash scam company that is apparently a organized around tree maintenance. They frame themselves as pro-environment. Basically making your carbon emissions negative. Yes. So the reason why they're so sketchy is they broker the deals of planting trees. So the average tree costs to plant is like 10 to 20 cents. Okay.

They charge all these high-level people a dollar and then broker that deal. Okay. This company, which is called Aspiration, was sponsored by the Los Angeles Clippers, and this company also had an individual marketing and sponsorship deal with Kauai Leonard. Okay. The suspicion is that the money that the Clippers gave to Aspiration was then laundered directly to Kauai Leonard to account for additional payment on top of his salary. Now, you might think, oh, how much?

50,000, maybe a million? No, 28 million. And now maybe reportedly, possibly 48 million. $48 million through a tree company? So, again, this is all alleged. They have also now gone bankrupt, by the way. And the reason this came out is because the company went bankrupt. And so the documents were made public

and the relationship to a subsidiary that Kauai Leonard's team built showed this relationship. So this was not a... It was also a no-show job. So the sponsorship, it's not like he was in a commercial for this. company. He didn't do anything. Wow. So it looks bad. That does look bad. It looks bad. It's also, when you get stories like this, I am often disappointed, but like, as you said, it's like for $50,000, someone, you know, gave their life away $48 billion. That's, that's eye raise. So, and this, they would do it because of like salary cap or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It would be a way to. Good job. That's a great story. Thank you for explaining that to me. You know, there's a suggestion, look, this has been true for many years, but there's a suggestion that there are a lot of. organizations in professional sports that do similar things.

This is just at a very high level. And because there's a... Zach Lowe on his show talked about this really interestingly, actually, that Kauai Leonard's team in particular has been very open about their demands around things like this in previous negotiations for contracts.

So like when he was a free agent in 2019, he was his representation, who was his uncle, was ultimately saying, like, we need this, this, and this. Okay. And none of that stuff was considered standard to the bylaws of the NBA.

Listeners of the show, if you're here for the movies, I'm very sorry. Listen to the Zach Lowe show. You can check out Pablo's episode where he explains it. I'm sure he's going to continue to report on it. That was very helpful. Thank you for explaining that today. You're welcome, yeah. It's not just movies that I follow closely.

No, I know that, but, you know, I was on vacation. I stopped opening a couple newsletters that I regularly read and I feel really free. Like what? Feed me? What's that? Okay. We don't have time for the. Do you know about Feed Me?

Oh, okay, boys. It's like the, it's written by Emily Sundberg. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like the New York 30 something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You stopped reading it as a declaration of discontent. No, I just didn't open on vacation because I was like on vacation.

And then I was like, oh, maybe like I don't care what's going on like where bankers in New York reading, you know? And I don't. And so I feel free. But then it does mean that I miss things. So thank you for catching me. That's like how I feel about television. Oh, yeah. I have no idea what's going on there.

I'm like, I don't know. I haven't seen it. I'm not sure. Couldn't tell you. I did start season three of the Gilded Age on the way on my eternal fight back. And it was really good. But yeah, I have to watch movies. So I had good luck to them.

Movies are back. What movies are we talking about this month? One battle after another? Yeah. Are we going to see that? When are we going to see it? Yeah, I think I'm going to see it on Monday. What the fuck?

I need to see it too. Okay. Well, can you? Welcome back to the United States. Put me on the email. Okay. You know? I'll put you on the email.

Okay. Thank you. uh one battle after another that's one um what else is coming out the strangers chapter two sure him yeah down abbey the grand finale we're going we got tickets michelle dachry expecting a baby did you see by me that would be nice for you i guess enough not for my family that wouldn't be good no she's wonderful uh what else is coming out big bold beautiful journey big bold beautiful journey oh yeah have you seen that yet i have not seen it i saw the trailer yesterday before caught stealing I just...

You were surprised. No, I mean, I've seen the trailer. I just, once again, what's going on there? I guess we'll find out. I don't know. Spinal Tap 2. Sure. I just saw The Conjuring Last Rites yesterday.

Okay. It was okay. We'll re-weapons. Yes. We'll re-weapons with CR in the middle of the month. That's actually going to VOD on Tuesday. I know. So you'll be able to see it then.

Not the same at home, I would imagine. You know, we all, we have to cope in our own way. And me watching it at home is how I'll feel safe. There's one other movie that I need to check out. What is it? I mentioned the roses. Oh, the long walk. The Stephen King adaptation with Cooper Hoffman and David Johnson.

That's kind of the month. Not the, October is jam-packed. Yes. Because it is the combination of award season. That first week of October is always a very big box office moment. We've got like the new Tron movie and Roofman and a bunch of other stuff opening. And then November, Wicked for Good. We'll do six straight episodes on Wicked for Good.

You excited? Yeah, I'm excited for you to perform all the songs standing on top of this table. Thanks to my daughter, I'll have them committed to memory, no doubt. We went to go see a movie. I can't even remember what movie it was. Maybe it was the bad guys too at some point in August. And have you noticed, I don't know if you take knocks to the movies even. but at the new movies now

they're just showing like adult movie trailers we're not in this space ahead of kids movies like animated movies so like one the one battle trailer played before it you know freakier Friday

played before it which was interesting because there was like what's that curiosity and having seen the movie I don't know that she totally would have gotten some of the humor didn't hate Freakier Friday by the way okay

and then what was the other And then they showed Wicked for Good And she was like, I will turn my life over to this. She was like, this is probably the most important film ever made. Okay. So I have that coming for me. We got to get Nutcracker tickets, but that's separate. I was just, you know, I'm already thinking to the holiday.

And I don't really want to go see Wicked for Good with Alice, but I do want to. It's not an Alice thing. That's a movie thing. But I do want to see the Nutcracker with her. Okay. We'll make that happen for sure. Okay, we're back. Yeah.

I'm happy to be back. Let's now go to my conversation with the great Spike Lee. It is the great honor of this show to have the great Spike Lee on the pod for the first time. Spike, I want to start by asking. Why is it the first time? Man, I asked for Defy Bloods. And you know what they told me? Spike is not available.

All right. Well, you got to take my conduct thing. So you have to go to nobody else from now on. Okay. I'll hit you up. next time. It's important that you're here. I love the new film. I want to ask you

about the 87 essential films list you made for your NYU students. So only a handful of filmmakers on that list got more than two films. Currosawa got three movies. Do you remember the first time you saw a Kurosawa movie? Yes. When I was

a mere kid, an older friend of mine of the family would take and see Samurai films. At that time, I must have been 89 years old, you know, just love the sword cutting heads off, but that was about it. It wasn't until I was in graduate film school, NYU graded film school, where Ang Lee, Ernest Dikas, and there was, being the deeper in my films, we're in all the same class, during drama, she was two years ahead of us that I saw Roshamone. And Rosh Ramon gave me, I used basis of Rosh Ramon for the structure of, she's got to have. my first feature film.

So I got to meet Mr. Kurosawa on a great moment of my cinematic life. And he knew I was. And you see some of my films. That was great. Denzel Washington, this script was sent around for many, many years. And Denzel got it.

And he called me up and said, Spike. I got a script. I'm going to send you FedEx. And when he hung up the phone, I knew I was going to do it. before I read the script. Now, I ain't not known that Inside Man, like 18, 90 years it elapsed between

back to them and this film. But it was great to bring back the band, the dynamic duo, Dean Lee. And here's the thing I think is very important. I've stressed this more than once on this tour that I approached this like a great jazz physician

who takes American standard for example Roger Homestine's the sound of the music my favorite things and look what John Coltrane did with that so you know that that was my approach that we're going to put the jazz

reincarnation not reincarnation but just a different version of a standard we were not good there's not a remake it's a reinterpretation and that that was the way

that I went through this whole film you know we we know what Currisawa did one of the great cinematic giants but people forget Orion and Ed McBain

wrote the novel first it's called King's Ransom but we would never go off the rails and not disrespect the original film. Well, we want to be different. That's why it's not the highest and lowest.

It's high as two lowest. And the two is not T.W. No, T.O. It's the number two. That's a shout out to my brother, Prince, who always use numbers, you know, sometimes instead of writing the words out. One of the things that differentiates your film

from the Curacao movie is that David King is a public person. He's a well-known figure as opposed to the Mufune character. I feel like you know for the best ears in the business. That's right. Not just the best shoes in the business, like in Mufune. But you must have encountered a lot of David Kings in your life, successful, entrepreneurial, creative, but kind of consumed by the business. Like, what do you think motivates people like that?

I don't want to have any blanket statements on my first time peering on your show. Okay, okay, okay. but what I see over the years I've been around the block a couple times is that I can tell who's doing it for the love

and who's strictly for doing it for the money when you're at that level you're not hiding it's you can not hide in that it comes out what you're about and I think one of the most important lines in this film my brother which is on the poster too

the one sheet all money and good money so there and what the biggest thing I got from the Kurosawa film about morality what is good

what is bad and with Denzel's performance and not forgetting Mr. Tishamofoon in his the picture of role directed by Kurosawa

when the thing comes down and Denzel has to make this choice he is such a great act that everybody in the theater or at home come on who put themselves in that exact place the exact place Denzel's playing and what would they do

what would they do and that makes a whole movie like because you're engaged in the theater I mean you're engaging the people in the audience engaging people going to see it later on you know Apple Plus and when you have

have people watching I mean it'll be a show, TV, show, a movie, whatever concert. When they're engaged, you want. I love what you and Matthew Libbatee do together. I feel like... Bad A day! I always say Badie!

He's on this set. I just call out his name. He is a genius. I feel like Shirek is one of your best-looking movies, especially in the last 20 years. A beautiful movie. Since you bring up Shirek, they hate that movie in Chicago. I know, but it's an awesome-looking movie.

They hate that movie in Chicago. And also, even before that, I'm a Nick fan, you know, the Bulls, so I've never got to love in Chicago, period. Yeah, we share that too. Even though Michael John was born in Brooklyn, you know, but they didn't. What did, um, did you and Maddie watch anything together before? Oh, yeah, we always watch. We always watch films before. we always watch films

to see what are things that similar to the film we're doing and what new things we might look at so Matt and I love cinema we love each other and we're dedicated to

this art form we're in and so there's several references in this film we reference the French Connection on the train yeah on the train the defied ones tony curtis and and uh the great late late great sydney portier jean hackman and from connect friends connections so we're cinnophiles and here's the thing i like to say and i'm a i'm a 10 professor of film at n yu

the grader film school i've been teaching it 30 years ang lee was my classmate earned stick because i shot all my early films my classmate jim john was a two years ahead of us in NYU, I say to my students the first day of the year that if you're able to make a living, doing what you love, you've won. The majority of people on this God's earth go to their grave, haven't hated a job they hate it. You haven't had a job they hate it. And they don't want their children to starve when they're roof over their heads and close them back and food and a table, but when you make a living and do what you love or anything else, you won.

And that's the approach to Maddie and I and not just Maddie, but the people that'll work with me in front of and behind the camera. You know, Spike Lee joins or teams. People work for me for many, many, many, many years. It's not just like I want to hook them up because they're great at what they do. and you know I'm a sports freak and so as many times the writer-producer, director

of my films, I'm like a general manager in sports we see many teams but I just had a great player and film a great story but people surround him but he's out there alone and that doesn't turn out there well

many times. You have to have a team and with the team come to togetherness and with a team called love. You watch any of these teams, championship teams, when they win, they talk about how

they love each one of their teammates and the staff. Even the ball boy. Just wiping up the court, spit on the core, whatever. You know, it's love. And I know my son, I'm corny, but I don't give it, you know what? It's love

because it's too hard to do, not loving what you're doing. You know, you don't want it. When you love what you do, it's not a job. So even though we might have a six, we have 6tham calls, people get their 5, 5.30 because they're loving what they do and they can have fun and we're going to do me

and we're going to work together. One of the things that's so interesting about that, though, in the movie, and I felt this watching it a little bit is that there might be a little bit of you in David King, too. And what is that? Well, we both have beautiful lives. I mean, maybe a few other things as well.

But the movie is really smart about Stan culture and about what we call parasocial relationships now. You know, people who are out there who think that they know you, who want to be like you, emulate you, maybe even want to be you. I was wondering if that, how much that interested you in this story

and the way that the, you know, this story's been updated. Well, it's not, I'm glad you used that word updated, but this thing, you know, where you talk about is not new, but with technology. It's like, I mean, stalkers. So I read an article the other day about professional athletes are being stalked. No, I mean, it's this, this, we live in a crazy insane world now.

I'm not even leaving out Trump. he without him shit I'm excusing without him this world is bananas and

I know I might sound like old fuddy when it was it was so calm and

Mayberry RFD and stuff was out of it back then too so if you watched this film

everybody hopefully in the theaters are not I mean I want why you see in Apple Plus, but hopefully see it in the theaters first, that in a lot of ways this film's reflection on the world we live today.

The world we live today. And there's some scenes I feel very strong about when Denzel was talking about the music. AI is going to write music? These machines don't have any heart, any soul? And that's the principle That that's what a character is He's a purist And

His red company is failing Because These young heads Don't want to What he's doing You know And he's a purist We say it in the film

He has the best ears In the business And we even have a repress to Quinn Who says he's like to hear a parent to Quincy Jones who died while we died later

while making the film and not even talk about the great Eddie Palmieri who passed away a couple of days before we had the premier in New York. So you always have this conflict

this is not new about the old heads and the youth but really you could say came the head during the Vietnam War you know

and these beatings and rebels have long hair and they don't take it or whatever you want to say and it's a great film by Peter Weir called The Day of Living Dangerousal,

the year of Living Dangerously and Mel Gibson I'm not talking about politics but great actor anyway that's what I'm calling this year 2025 the year of living dangerously because things are going off the rails

and Gaza and this I mean it's just that's not the only thing but it's crazy now it is absolute crazy well it's interesting that you point out this kind of conflict

between the youth and an older generation for me the best scene in the film is this showdown between Denzel and Rocky in the studio that is that's high noon and Denzo's Gary Cooper

I know he the guy other guy was that's the man in the black hat you know that's rocky so what tell me about kind of conceiving that scene especially visually

because you know on paper that could go badly and it's so brilliant well it's from the original which is great but the fact that we're not talking about shoes

and this music it wasn't it was not scripted my brother to turn to a rap battle. I look at his script and then he started dropping bars from Naz's Illmatic. And then

to Aesav's credit, he rolled with it. In fact, he has a line during that showdown. He says, what is the rap battle? And that's an example how that was not scripted. But here's the thing, though.

You have to have a thing on set that stops where people feel free. Like, if you're pounding, you miss this line, you miss the line, what are you doing? What are you doing? I don't direct like that. I want to give people, not everybody, because everybody can't improv.

We've got to know that from the jump. You got to know. Who could do what? Same thing. as a baseball man or football goes back, you've got to know what your players can do. You're not going to ask this guy to kick an 80-yard field goal.

You know, he doesn't hit from 40. Outside 40, he can't do it. So you have to know what are people's, this is what I tell my class. What are the individuals who are in front of the camp? What are there sprints and weaknesses? And when Denzel, my brother, and Rocky, my brother, they were just

that stuff was all script. It works so well. But it made, it lived, and none of the things that, when you lift up a scene, at the same time, you're lifting up the whole film. And this is the end of the film.

This is like the finale that goes before the finale. When you're on set and that's happening and they're riffing on the script and they're building out this battle and you guys are all working on it together, do you know that day

that you're like we've just lifted this movie or is that something that you don't see until you're looking at it in post what's your feel for that you know

also I can only speak for myself but what I'm trying to do is not bust out yelling and scream and as soon as I say cussing and I run it around the room so

I know I've seen crazy if you ever seen me at a nick game courtside I'm like that But also I've got to wait a cold cut. Let me ask you about Denzel. You know, you've made a number of films together now and you just talked.

It's their fifth film together. Fifth film. Is the Denzel, who's in Mo Better Blues, can he do the things that the highest to lowest Denzel can do? Have you seen him add tools to his toolkit over time? Yes, here's a thing. I normally keep repeating that phrase, here's the thing, but here's the thing. Here's the thing. Great, whether you're great musicians, great artists,

what makes you great is that you get greater. You don't, you just don't show great. I mean, you got to, it's building over, your greatness is built over years. Now, some people, you know, that might be great, and then they had a plateau of it and light. But the goal, and you really have to have God-giving gifts and determination and more important maybe put the work in you cannot shuck and jive

you can't fake it you can't fake the funk what does that mean though for janzele what does it mean for him to be putting the work in he's a purist he's a hard worker he's deeply believed in god a greater being and in a lot of ways he's he's a lot of ways he's He might not agree with this, but a lot of ways, I think the way he approaches his craft is religious. I'm going to tell him that one day. I just thought of that, but the way he carried himself is religion and doesn't want to cheat his God, his maker. I feel he's the greatest living actor today. Now, my brother Marty is going to say, his brother.

Scorsese and the great C. LeMette was alive. He would say Al Pacino and Frances would say Brando. Oh, they're all great. I don't work any of those guys. I can only go by my five films with my brother

Benzo Washington. Every time we work together, he does stuff that just amazes me. I mean, his range. I mean, It gets kind of tiresome, just describing greatness for me.

I know it's too easy, too cheap. These are great, but I'm running out of syllables. Well, one of the thing that I think really stood out to me about this one is that he and Jeffrey Wright, I just bought it. Let me hear it. Well, I just really, really bought it. You know what I mean? You know when you're watching a movie and you're like, these are real people?

They have this relationship is deep and long, and there's something between them that is not said, but that we understand. And it made, it had me wondering in a situation like that. And I don't think Jeffrey and Denzel had worked together before. I went together on that, Jonathan Demi film. I forgot the name. Oh, you're right, the Manchrian candidate. Yes, Joseph's the first only time.

Are they rehearsing, though? Like, are they building their bond on that? Are we all rehearsed? But it wasn't, it wasn't like rehearsal for a play. But great actors, you know, on that level, it's just a different thing. And they feed up each other. And one of my favorite scenes in the film, hoping not give him too much away,

when Jeffrey Wright's character knocks on his door and literally gets on his knees and begs him to pay the $17.5 million ransom. And that scene, you feel the hurt, but also the embarrassment he has, asking for that amount of money, knowing that. Dancil's character says, man, you came and count the $17,000,000, $1,000. It was, it was, when you get two actors like that and they're in a room, just them, just roll the camera. They're pretty special together. I'd get the hell out the way and let them do their thing. You are renowned for using music and films.

This is a really interesting cocktail in this one. You mentioned Eddie Palmeri. who plays a big part in a centerpiece sequence, but then you've got Howard Drosson's score, you've got this Scottish trio, you've got Rocky's music, you've got Ayanna Lee. Is that something that is something you know

before production begins, that these are the pieces that you want? Is it something that develops as you're making the movie? Is it in post, like what that stew is going to be? Well, it's a combination of the both. And my father,

Billy, great musician, composer, I can't play a lick any instrument, got my father's ears. And so that's always one of my strong points. Music, about Bob, the discourse that she's going to have

at school days do the right thing and mom better blues. Then it was Terrence Bledger. That was Howard Drozden. And I just know, I know music, how it works,

how it doesn't work. It's a tool best in my toolbox, along with cinematography, the writing a script, production design, costume design, props.

That's another thing. Denzel is a mass are using props. The scene where he picks up the grenade and says, I'm going to blow his MMO. That's not in the script. The scene was getting this guy where he picks up the radio,

Mike keeps put in his mouth. That's not in the script. He uses everything that said props to make his performance come alive. He's, are you sports guy? Yes, major. You know that term?

Five tools? Of course. It's a ten tool ball player. Eleven, if you put a grenade in his hand, yeah. I want to ask you a little bit about your career. Right. Some of your films are acclaimed as like the greatest works in movie history, right? There's do the right thing in Malcolm X and on down the line.

And then there's some that I feel like are a little bit forgotten or a little slept on. Is there one of yours that you feel like? Maybe he deserves a little bit of shine that isn't in the same conversation as some of the best-known stuff? 25th hour. My favorite. Hell yes. Like, yes. Why do you think that's important?

I think it's a living document of New York City after 9-11. Great book by David Benioff. And I don't think New York City in the world was ready for that film. It was too close after 9-11. But it's going to be, it's almost like a documentary, I would say, of New York City, the hard soul in New York City under microscope after that terrific day. I wanted to ask you about the making of that quickly, too, because did you feel like when you set out to do that film, was that a way for you to cope with some of the aftermath and what had happened in the city? great question I was not in New York that the day before I flew to L.A. for meeting with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I was trying at that time, still trying to do a film called Savas Joe Lewis, who I wrote with the great. Bush Schulberg, right? And Buzz Schilberg and my wife called me up that morning and said, turn on a TV and I saw the second plane go in the tower.

And Arnold called me, so he still wanted me. I said, let's meet. So we sat in this restaurant, not even talking about the film, but looking about the TV screen. And that day, I had to get back to New York.

And there was no, I don't, at that time, I didn't have my license. My, New York, I had my driver's license. And I wanted to get home. And I went down to Union Station here in L.A.

And all the, the last train was sold out. And this beautiful black woman, And I begged her, back to back, they said, let me speak to the porter. And they said, come on, Spike. So they alternated living space a bump to me. So I went back to New York, from it goes L.A., Chicago, Chicago, to New York. So I got back to New York three days later.

And, you know, I think that film, one day get the, you know, the love issue yet. but that did not not 20th hour late grade Philistina Hoffman Barry Pepper Edward Norton

Rosario I mean that's a very that film is very special to me I love to hear you say that Anthony

New York is too absolutely I am a New Yorker as well so yeah I'm very touched by that movie great score

by Transblash on that too broadly speaking what do you think is missing from Hollywood right now it's just hard and harder to get stuff made

and I've been blessed to be able to do that for some films and you guys streaming too I'm not I'm not mad about streaming this you know for what's on Apple plus this film would not have been

made I think that executives here I think there there's so much writing stuff there they're not so eager to take risk on on new faces, new people, new ideals, new stories.

But you guys, anybody, they might say that's the beginning of the Louis Bid the mayor and, you know, and all them old cats. So I had to come through, and I'm not the only doing independent cinema. So that's where we are now. Do you know where your next film's going to be? I know, but I don't like the jinx stuff. So I don't really talk about stuff to what happens. Why is the Scholberg script? Why has it been so hard to get that made over the years?

I wish you could tell me. This is Bud and I, I got the meat, Bud to eat, to look his end. You know, Bud won an Oscar for on the waterfront. Bud is in the Boxing Hall of Fame. But what makes Sammy run. And Bud was at both Joe Lewis, Max Schmellon fights in Yankee Stadium. So this feels about the relation between Joe Lewis and Max Schmellon and it's FDR,

Alexander Roosevelt, Hitler, Gerbil, Lina Horn, Sugar-A-Ravis. I mean, everybody's in this film. And I said this many times on this tour for this film, but I literally Bud made me promise

on his dying bed to get this film made, and I'm not going to be a liar. I'm getting it made. It's called Stavis Joe Lewis. That second, Schmelling, Joe didn't trained for the first fight, Hitler and Gerva sent the Hindenburg to New York to bring them back to the joyous Germans. Second fight, Joe knocked them out. No, before the second fight, FDR summoned

Joe Lewis to the White House. We'll next to him, you know, using a wheelchair, said, these the muscles make his beat the Nazis. And it was well believed, but Toments well believed around the world that the winner of the second fight would determine the victor World War II. So it was a great, great, epic story. Can't wait to see it. Me too.

I can't wait to make it. Two last quick ones for you. First one, before we got on, you said this is the Knicks year. You really believe it? Go to your gold and your gold. Your optimism is inspiring. I'm not that kind of Knicks fan. I have a hard time, man.

It's been a long time. It's it. Look, I don't wish injuries are anybody. Halliburton and Tatum, they're not playing this year. I'm not scared of Cleveland. So just give us a chance to go against OKC in the NBA finals. I'll take that. I'll take it too.

Spike, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what is the last great thing they have seen? Have you seen any great movies? Sinners! Sinners! The news by Brian. Ryan is his co-produce, his wife, his partner, Zinji. That's the film. That's the film.

What is it about that film that you loved? The originality. I'm telling you, that scene, you know, the music scene? That's the best filmmaking I've seen in the years. That's just out the park. I mean, that, here's the thing. Ryan called me out of nowhere and say, are you in

where are you guys? I'm in L.A. He said, you're in L.A.? Can you get to the IMAX theater? Because this is the final thing we're doing the goals of theater. It said, can you get how that just happened to be in L.A.? That phone

call. So I rushed at IMAX there with, you know, making sure it goes, straightforward goes to theater. So the technician's there, but in the middle of theater is me, Ryan, and Zinzee.

and they're never going to invite me to another screen a long ago. I'm acting like I was course signed to guard and I always double me down Ryan that film that's a cinematic masterpiece

I need to send them to another level you know people could hate if they want to but the proofs and the put it that's the joint right there that's the joint uh

you like it I loved it is my favorite movie of the year. And, you know, you know from joints. That's what you do. So thank you so much for the time. Congrats on highest, the lowest. Go Nix.

And also, let's have your people, my people. Don't let this be another 39. How long have you been doing this? Eight years. Don't be another eight years on another, when we're together, okay? When Joe Lewis comes out, you're coming back. That's it.

Whatever the next film is, okay? Okay, whatever the next film is. Spike, thank you. Appreciate you. you. Bye-bye. Thank you to Spike Lee. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Next week, we build the Robert Altman Hall of Fame.

How are you feeling? Like, I have a lot of homework to do. But it's okay. I started early. I'm committed. Yep. You know, and this is one of your faves. So a real time for you to shine.

If you would like to prep for this episode and you're not Amanda on the Criterion channel right now, There are a number of Altman films as well as my introduction to those films. So if you want to watch that stuff before we talk, I'll try to repeat myself too much when we do our episode. We'll see you then.