The Big Picture - ‘House of Gucci’ and Top 5 Ridley Scott Movies

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

It's time for the house of Gucci! Ridley Scott's much-anticipated family crime drama set among the famed Italian fashion empire, starring Lady Gaga, Adam Driver, Al Pacino, and many others, is here. Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to talk about how much fun they had with the film, the performances, the style, and the Gucci of it all (1:00). Then they share their top 5 favorite Scott-directed films (35:00). Finally, Sean is joined by Chris Frierson, the filmmaker behind the Music Box entry 'DMX: Don't Try to Understand,' to talk about his documentary on the beloved rapper (1:16:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan; Chris Frierson Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringer Films and HBO's DMX Don't Try to Understand is the next installment of the Music Box series, premiering this Thursday, November 25th at 8 p.m. The film focuses on a year in the life of rapper Earl DMX Simmons as he's released from prison in early 2019 and attempts to rebuild his career in the music industry and reconnect with family and fans. DMX Don't Try to Understand bears witness to a man searching for reinvention and redemption, striving to stay true to himself while reestablishing his roles as a father, an artist, and an icon. Watch or stream DMX Don't Try to Understand on HBO or HBO Max, Thursday, 8 p.m.

It's me, Sean Fantasy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is a Big Picture Conversation Show about the house of a Gucci. I didn't even get to practice that. That was just like, you went right into it. Amanda, later in this episode, I'm going to have a conversation with Chris Frierson,

one of the filmmakers behind DMX, Don't Try to Understand. It's the latest installment in Ringer Films' Music Box series on HBO and HBO Max. The film debuts on Thanksgiving Day. So tuck into a nice meal, sit down on your couch, fire the movie up with your family. I would really appreciate it. This movie was shot and completed while DMX was still with us in 2019 and 2020. One of my favorite artists. There's something very bittersweet and beautiful about this movie. I hope you'll watch it. But now let's talk about our feast. Let's give thanks. Let's give thanks to Ridley Scott for doing two things. One, bringing House of Gucci into our lives. And two, really uniting me closely with our gladiator, our matchstick man,

the growing alien baby inside of us all. It's Chris Ryan. Hey, guys. stick man the growing alien baby inside of us all it's it's chris ryan hey guys you know no one else gets this but i got it think that you know i sometimes it's tough the expectations when i come on this podcast and everybody's like oh is he is he gonna do crazy voices and sometimes when you do all these crazy voices you start to wonder like does anybody know my voice and maybe i should just be myself today but then i think to myself i'm an artist and i need to fly like a pigeon if you are wondering why we are acting so foolishly, it's because... Bobby, please put like 18 air horns over that.

We're talking about one of the funniest movies, one of the most fun movies that has been released, frankly, in years. Not just in 2021, but in a long time. That movie is House of Gucci. This is the new film from the great filmmaker ridley scott it is has an absolute cavalcade of movie stars in it foremost among them lady gaga adam driver al pacino jared leto on all of the drugs and rainbows and um it's a it's a fascinating piece of work we've been anticipating this movie for a long time on this show and i'm really excited to talk to you guys about it. And I'm excited to talk about Ridley Scott.

We're going to talk about our top five favorites from Ridley. He's had one of the longest and most productive careers of any filmmaker in the history of Hollywood. There's a lot to choose from there. Let's start with House of Gucci, though. This is based on the 2001 book, The House of Gucci, a sensational story of murder, madness, glamour, and greed by Sarah Gay Forden. Amanda, what did you think of House of Gucci?

Absolutely. Just yes. Like we did it. It's what I wanted. If you like these trailers and you're like a cool person with a sense of fun, then you will love this movie. I was grinning at it.

I think it's important to clarify when you said it's like the funniest movie that has been released this year and maybe in several years. That is very true, but it's not funny because it's bad. It's funny because it's in on the joke. It knows what it is satirizing. It knows what it is doing. It understands its ridiculousness. It's intentional and transcendent and i just let's

be real if you don't want to see lady gaga and adam driver swanning around italy in like immaculate clothes then then you and i are not alike and perhaps this movie is not for you but we are not the same we are not the same but this movie was for me cr uh what'd you think you're a longtime chronicler of the works of ridley scott what do you make of house of gucci you know how uh some people say they they go to action movies and they're just like hey i just want to i just want to see the explosions yeah gucci's an action movie, but the explosions is acting. Yes. I just wanted to see the acting. And there's so much acting. There's mannered, subtle acting. There is absolutely Basque region, beautiful ham that you can just scrape off the bone with a Swiss army knife.

There is very cultured black forest ham that you can just scrape off the bone with a Swiss army knife. There is very cultured black forest ham that you get. It is absolutely unbelievable the spread they put out. And they just say, dive in, tuck your tie in, maybe put a bib on, but dive into the feast of performances. So I did not really know anything about this story. I have not followed the Gucci family, the Gucci fashion labels history at all. And this is the, so in many ways, this was a surprising story to me. We're talking a lot about, I think the sort of like surrounding, not quite campiness, but the sort of like excess that makes this such a fun movie. But I was also fortunate to not really know where the movie was going the whole time.

So it kind of kept me on the line as a narrative movie going experience. Just briefly for the listeners, since they have likely not seen this movie by the time we're doing this. So the movie follows Patrizia, who is the ambitious wife of Maurizio Gucci. Patrizia is played by Gaga, Maurizio by Adam Driver.

Patrizia marries her way into this Italian luxury label. The family business is very appealing for Maurizio, but he's also on the outside of it in some ways. He's attempting to become a lawyer.

His father and his father's brother, Rodolfo and Aldo, played respectively by Jeremy Irons and Al Pacino, neither of whom are from Italy.

They really run the company. And Patrizia wants in on the company. She wants power. She wants Maurizio to have power, you know, surrounding them is her cousin or his cousin. I should say Paolo Gucci played by Jared Leto, who we referenced earlier.

There are a number of other talented actors in this film. Salma Hayek appears as a psychic slash confidant. Jack Houston appears as a family lawyer. It is a, it is a star studded cast and it's a, Jack Houston appears as a family lawyer. It is a star-studded cast. And it's a, I guess it's a sort of, on the one hand, it is the sort of swanning around in the beautiful costumes that you're talking about, Amanda. It's also sort of like a murder kind of conspiracy film a little bit. It's a little bit of like a family drama, kind of Godfather-esque set in the 80s. Its tone is not quite as serious as a film like that.

It's doing something. And I think you said in on the joke, Amanda. I want to zero in on that because I think that you're right that the actors believe that it is. I wonder how much the filmmakers feel like they are doing something that is beyond fun and into the realm of hilarity. There are certain choices, particularly in the soundtrack. And this movie has both an amazing 80s soundtrack because it is set in the late 70s and 80s. And there are a lot of ridiculous disco nightclub Euro scenes that, again, if that's what you want then this movie has it in spades um and then but also the way the movie uses the opera cues yes to me really signifies is that

they are very on the nose and melodramatic in a way to me that to me was like intentional and very funny and so in my, I went to a press screening and there is one climactic moment where Al Pacino receives some bad news and someone literally in the screening just goes, come on Al Pacino, because the movie has like set it up to a point where you're expecting that kind of explosive acting.

And I do think you're right that the actors are really going for it, but the movie supporting that for the most part, you know, the tone comes here and there because they don't totally want to endorse, you know, murder or tax fraud or all the, you know, family alienation or all of the terrible things that these people do. These people do a lot of really bad things. Um, but even the way those crimes and hateful things are communicated is sort of like a, it's soap opera-y is what I would say.

It's a very, very high class, expertly made, like expensive soap opera. Chris, you said something to me that I thought was so right on right after the screening was over, which was, you were like, I'm so glad this wasn't a 10 part Ryan Murphy series. I'm so glad it was this. What did you mean by that? it's uh sword and shield epic or going out into space or doing these portraits of greed and malfeasance like he's done here and he did uh you know i think all the money in the world he's touched on these kinds of rich and you know empty people in the european countrysides multiple times

even good years kind of basically like this this kind of counselor too is very similar yeah yeah and i think that um this just gave me a very good example of like you know we you watch a lot of tv shows and you think that could be a movie and you see some movies and you're like did you want this to be a tv show and this is just something that i felt like everybody was in its right everything was in its right place there were two very strong leads there were three very strong supporting performances the uh sets and locations were incredible and i don't know if you have to shoot 10 hours and you're moving people in and out whether or not you really get that pure fucking tuscan hit of the sun they just clearly were like

we're going to italy during covid and we're making a very expensive film starring movie stars about the decay of power and the overwhelming power of grief, of greed rather. Yeah, I think you nailed it. I think there is something fascinating about the way that Ridley chooses his movies. This is his second movie, of course, this year. You mentioned that this movie was made this year. It was shot in COVID in 2021, not even in 2020. This has not been sitting on the shelf. It was recently in production. It's a very long film. And I think there have been some reviews that are like, oh, what a miss from the master Ridley. He really took on this big subject matter. And this is an overwrought, overlong, silly movie. And I think that that's wrong. I definitely think that

while it strains credulity in terms of how seriously we're supposed to take these people, I think that's sort of the point. I think that decaying nature of power that you're talking about, Chris, tends to make people ridiculous. If you look at the world of fashion plastic surgery the excess of the homes that people buy the sequences where al pacino is uh explaining to his family members how the leather is made amongst the villagers in a small town and how they you know take care of the cows only to slaughter them to make beautiful leather products and also the way that they knock off their own products to make money in the 1980s for Gucci. There is this kind of like this interesting collision between sort of fakery

and wealth and faking it till you make it being a huge part of becoming successful in this world. I mean, as far as the world of fashion goes, like there are actually not very many movies set in this space. What did you make of it in that regard again this is kind of my interest set into chris's point about how ridley it scott is a maker of worlds and tries on so many genres and it really does seem like at some point he's like i would like to spend some time in this world not too much time because he is an efficient filmmaker sean as you notice it's a couple takes and then he's moving on. But like a Goodyear is example of he has owned a house in Provence for like many years and was just like, cool, I'm going to film a house, you know, a movie down the road. And sometimes he wants to do like

medieval battle stuff, you know, like you can just kind of see his interests or places that he wants to be and worlds he wants to create. And so if he wants to create a high fashion world where like Anna Wintour shows up in the third act as like a basically unintroduced character, but you know who it is. They don't even explain who Tom Ford is for like 20 minutes in the movie. I am Amanda Dobbins new. But you know, because it's a movie for me and I think people who want to spend time in the fashion world,, Amanda Dobbins, knew. But, you know, because it's a movie for me and I think people who want to spend time in the fashion world, it's great and it's funny and it's catty. And crucially, this movie did have access to the Gucci archives and the clothes look good. So many movies that are supposed to be about like high fashion worlds or fashion itself,

they just, the clothes can't get there. And so, And so I loved it. I too want to spend time in this world. I mean, I don't want to be in this family. Seems like bad things happen if you're in this family. But that immersiveness, I was very appreciative. And I really appreciate Ridley Scott's attention to detail and creating the full absurd experience. It's an absurd world. I completely agree. I think it's all appropriate for it. Let's talk about the main event. The main event, as Chris pointed out, is the acting. I think we should give some time to every single performance and look at what everybody is doing here. Now, ahead of the film, when we first saw the trailer, it was noted not just by us on this podcast but by many people who saw this trailer that lady gaga who i think is a very gifted actor uh was doing a transylvania accent and um she was

got chocolate i i can confirm that she is basically doing a transylvania accent and honestly it didn't really bother me um i it's what what is a bit uh dissonant about this experience is watching her press tour relative to her performance because in her press tour she is saying things like she spoke to her longtime friend Tony Bennett about how he feels

about Italians being represented in film in terms of crime. This is a movie in which her character commits a crime. So I literally don't know what she's saying

she's addressing there other than like just acknowledging that she's friends with Tony Bennett and she also sought to make a real person out of Patrizia not a caricature and I, you know, while I think her, she knows what movie she's friends with tony bennett um and she also sought to make a real person out of patricia not a caricature and i you know while i think her she knows what

movie she's in from the performance that she is giving that she is giving this kind of like it is a frankly a very 80s movie-esque performance it's the kind of performance you would see from a michelle pfeiffer or a glenn close in that period which is to say a little bit kicked up you know the acting style in that time was a little bit different. And I think that that's okay. I think it's actually a good thing that she has made a lot of those choices. And also because she's Lady Gaga and she's not, I don't know, Elizabeth Debicki.

You know what I mean? She's not a person who is known for a kind of a restraint or a slightly different performance style. I really, really liked her in this movie. And I think that a movie like this, the movie doesn't really work without her. She is the POV character for the most part. And then she does kind of disappear at a certain phase of the film.

But without her, I don't think we have a lens to go into this absurd world. Amanda, what did you think of Gaga? Tremendous. Because she's setting the tone and the over-the-top energy of the movie. And I think you're right that she knows what movie she's in. And to some extent, it's like creating the movie around her and this intense performance. And there is just a certain extraness that Lady Gaga has cultivated over the years that is a part of her pop stardom. It is certainly part of her press tour which i just

i can't get enough uh i would love to read the quote that she gave about the transylvania accent here this is from lady gaga to british vogue i started with a specific dialect from vignola then i started to work in the higher class way of speaking that would have been more appropriate in places like milan and florence so it's not that it's a Transylvanian accent. It's just that we're not high class enough to appreciate it. I buy that. I have never been to Milan. So who am I to say?

So I think that she also has like a unique, you know, star quality of just when you see her, you know, she's going for it. She's like giving all of it and probably too much in like sometimes a way that can be a little theater kitty, especially in some of her pop stardom. But I think she makes it work here. And there is a theatrical element to this performance,

like the, you know, the clothes and the you know the clothes and the and the remaking of this character this is a ambitious character who sees something in the gucci family that she wants to be a part of and and gets it and then has it taken away and then makes some uh not advisable decisions as a result so it, I mean, it's great casting, honestly. It's a really marriage of star and performance, but yeah, delightful. CR, you've told me many times that Born This Way is your favorite album of all time. So, what did you think of Gaga?

She reminded me of Daniel Day-Lewis and Lincoln. And let me tell you why. Because I don't know if it's accurate, but it was consistent you know what i mean it was complete and total commitment she might be camp daniel day lewis like she might just do a movie every four years and when it happens it's a major event it's gonna be like our favorite movie of the year it's gonna be the greatest promo tour we've ever seen she's basically humping adam driver on red carpets right now like it is unbelievable shit like i honestly like feel weird for adam driver's wife i think he's like a little bit like what's going on but that just really there are like people are asking her like oh you know what was it like working for al pacino she's just like

fuck al pacino let me tell you something about adam driver i want to crawl inside of his body and explode out like a xenomorph that's what she was saying unbelievable but speaking of al pacino i was thinking about this while i was watching her and you know then i've gone back and watched some of the clips on youtube everything everybody's going to talk about the voice everybody's going to talk about the accent it's hilarious and and she has some of the best lines in the movie. But I was watching her, especially there's a scene where she's having a scene with Jared Leto

and he's talking about the line that he wants to produce and how he wishes he was a designer. And it reminded me of this whole thing that Titus Welliver has said about Al Pacino. When he does his Al Pacino imitation, he's like, everybody thinks it's the voice, it's the hands.

He's always moving his hands. And Gaga, if you watch her, she's doing all of this stuff. She's clapping, and then she's smoking, and then she's moving her hands and doing a Supremes background. She's always, always, always in motion and action, and it's perfect for her character

because her character is always maneuvering and trying to get one step forward. I thought it was a wonderful performance. mean i guess it's like you can go aha like she like that's not exactly how like i mean they're all speaking english what are we talking about here that's that's the thing the thing is that you know unlike say the last duel which is a the film that really directed earlier this year none of those characters are doing a french accent despite the film being set in france yeah i mean they're they are doing a weird mid-Transatlantic. Yes.

It's a quasi-English accent. And everyone has a different location of where, unlike the France versus England in 1300s, they are. Yes. And so there is clearly a European dialect happening there. This movie, the attempt is to have an entirely american cast do entirely italian accents which is something that we've seen before in movies and that you saw quite frequently in like the 60s and 70s you'd watch a world war ii movie and there'd be all kinds of american actors doing german accents period of words like all all just have british

people play all the nazis you know in world war ii movies. And that was how, in our mind's eye, we heard the way that Nazis would speak. They would sound like they came from Manchester or something. So it's not like this is new, but it's unusual at this stage of, frankly, the history of movie making to have such famous people make a choice like this. And for Adam Driver,

and let's talk about Adam Driver. He is the subtlest of the the performances here i think he has perhaps the most complicated role because he is not necessarily that pov character but he is the person upon whom all of the action kind of hinges and he is doing an italian accent but it's quite restrained relative to his his co-stars uh you think he's going for it well they're like at 11 and he's at seven right okay but like but it is still like adam driver doing like that is not that's my family name you know like it's like a very serious actor who like you know believes in craft and doesn't like to watch himself and it's like

really believes in the characters like you know doing his best super mario it's true there is something fascinating about that again i think he's quite good he's really like never not been good we're we're on kind of one of the more unusual unbroken hot streaks in movie acting history right now with him um this is just so savvy to probably walk on that set and just be like, ah, okay. I see what other people are doing. I need to be the calm in the storm here. Because if Pacino, Leto, and Gaga are doing that

and I'm screaming and I'm like, I want to be a lawyer. It's not going to work. It's just going to be too much. Very much the case. I think he's very effective in this movie. There also is something kind of sinister about Adam Driver. There's a reason he was cast as Kylo Ren.

There's a reason he was kind of menacing at times on girls. And I think he taps into that in the second half of this film very effectively when he sort of turns. The movie also really understands his physical presence and physicality. And that's not just a cool way of saying he looks so handsome and all of these things, even though like, oh my God, can this man went so close? When Adam Driver is in the San Maritz house and just like a full cashmere Navy bathrobe,

I was just like, I did it. I made it to a place in my life. But what did you think of Adam Driver wearing like the Dickies jumpsuit in the beginning when he's working at the trucking facility? But in that and they're letting him,, he looks great and is like playing soccer and they are just like letting this, like, he's very tall, like physically impressive guy, just like be really hot. You know, they have him like in Gucci suits, just like jumping around at one point,

like he's in a GQ photo shoot by himself, you know? That's right. I forgot about that part. So, and he is like bigger than everybody. And so there's like the restrained emotional or, you know, kind of like intellectual part of his performance, but he's doing a lot just by being on screen looking as good as he looks. And the movie lets him do it, which I appreciated. The one thing that I find funny about his performance and the role in general is in the first 15 minutes, he's presented as,

it's kind of like the male she's all that, you know, where it's like he's wearing glasses and maybe he's a little bit bookish and he's not actually among the most handsome

and strapping young movie stars on the planet. And then by the time we get to the back half of the movie, it's clear that he is embracing fully his, you know, his,

his incredible onscreen physicality, presence, charisma, et cetera. Let's go to Al. Chris, you and Al have a deep and tender, long running relationship.

And, you know, Al is, is no spring chicken. Nope. And I must say i was i was impressed by the power and and energy of his motor at at this stage of his career what do you think about i thought it was one of the first real roles he's had in a while you know like a real character and

a real arc to this character because when you first meet him, he's this welcoming paternal figure who's the doorway into this world of excess and riches. And then you get behind the curtain and you find out what the Gucci empire is essentially propped up on. And you find out how craven this guy is and how he's essentially brought in Adam Driver as a pawn that he can control to further his his sort of reign at gucci so i thought it was like the first time gosh i can't even remember the last like real al pacino rule that we like had that i think everybody was just

like this is this is a wonderful part for this guy. And is there a better environment for him to show his wares? I mean, this is basically, they're like, you can't go too far. There is no speed limit. It's the Autobahn feel free. And I don't want to spoil a single moment of some of his just magical shit

that he pulls off, especially later in the movie. And the crazy thing is not to jump ahead here is that he's not the hammiest person in this movie he is often the second hammiest person in scenes he's in because he ends in this movie with jared leto okay so i'm gonna use this up well is there anything you want to say about al pacino before we go to jared leto i'm in it because i have a lot to say about jared leto there was just one point where he he was Al Pacino and he he did take that Autobahn opportunity and I was just giggling throughout

it and it's like not a funny scene but I do think it is also meant to be amusing or maybe I was just imagining Chris doing the impression like as it was watching. There are a lot of layers to this. I'm definitely saving it for future movie drafts. I just don't want to spoil it for people. But I just, again, it's where Al Pacino also knows what he has to work with and also what we, the people, want from him in a situation like this. And it's fascinating when he really decides to turn it off and so a few times he actually doesn't go full al which i also think really works and possibly makes it like an actual like performance as opposed to just you know a featured uh youtube clip but yeah it it is it is

what you'd hope yeah there's a there is a kind of a quiet misery in some of the Aldo Gucci performance. And when you see what happens to his character over time, you see that it is not just all glamour and excess for him. So Jared Leto. In my lifespan as someone who has covered the world of movies, Jared Leto has really been through all of the phases of life. He has been a reclamation project from the world of television. He has been considered one of the most beautiful people on earth.

He has been considered a surprisingly talented actor. He has been considered an Academy Award winning actor. He has been considered one of the most annoying people on movie sets in the history of the industry. But he's been considered the lead singer for 30 Seconds to Mars, your favorite band? A band I have seen live.

In fact, because I wrote a piece about Jared Leto almost 10 years ago for Grantland about how maybe he was a little bit misunderstood. Now, in that time, he went on to play the Joker and become deeply annoying. You may recall he was nominated for a Golden Globe just this year for a film called The Little Things. Remember that?

He was basically the best part of The Little Things. I wouldn't say he was the best of anything, but he was worthwhile. Well, I mean, just like to the extent that that movie was working, like to the extent that people were trying things, he was trying it. Yes, at a bare minimum,

we know that Jared Leto is always going for it. He does not mail anything in and he is very divisive. In a movie like Blade Runner 2049, a lot of people saw his performance and were like, whoa, you took me way out of this beautiful little dollhouse that you built by putting this jerk in this movie. In this movie, I believe that this is the single best use of his talents in the history of his career because Paolo Gucci is one of the dumbest people that's ever appeared in a film and his self-delusion is met is transcendent to me it is magnificent and there he is not putting on any airs he's like i am i am literally doing luigi i do not care i will be luigi for two and a half hours also fat like i believe in luigi you know like luigi has a heart and a half hours. He's also fat and bald. But like, I believe in Luigi. Yes. You know, like Luigi has a heart

and a beautiful artist soul. Absolutely. He's like, I'm not, he's not Super Mario. He's Luigi. He's the number two. You know,

he's like, why do I have to play the back? Why can't I get time with Princess Peach? You can feel that agony from him. And I just, I loved it.

I thought it was, I laughed at almost everything he said. Your mileage is really going to vary on this one. If someone comes out of this movie and they're like, that guy is an idiot and I hated this movie, I understand. What did you guys think?

You go first, Amanda. Can I reclaim some space for Jordan Catalano? Sure. Can we just take a moment for my childhood and many other people's childhood and be like, that like one Jared Leto, but post Jordan Catalano, I'm with you. And again, this is a movie filled with choices, you know, and I feel like we live in a time and a world and certainly a movie industry where like people are not choosing enough,

you know, they're trying to have it every single way appeal to everyone we'll do a little bit of this a little bit of that and he just decided to be a weird 55 year old like quiet luigi who loves pigeons and and no one said no and i that's beautiful chris i think that this is one of the most incredible performances I've ever seen. And you know who agrees with me is Ridley Scott. Because Ridley Scott stops this movie several times to just be like, we're just going to watch Jared Leto for a few minutes here. Like there's no real narrative reason to do some of this stuff that happens where it's just like, let's just have this guy sitting on a sofa for about three minutes you're just like all right

let's watch him fucking sitting on a sofa heating himself with a newspaper uh the the c you you referenced it earlier chris but the sequence in which he says i want to soar like a pigeon is it touched my heart i just want to say it like a pigeon. It touched my heart. I just want to say it touched my heart. It is actually a heartbreaking performance because this is where I, and maybe this gets into larger Ridley stuff, but I do think that the later period Ridley,

especially as he just stacks checks on top of us and he's just like another one, another one, that you get into questions of intentionality. How much is this just breezing through and this is what you got and you put together a cut like another one another one that you get into questions of intentionality you know like how much is this just breezing through and this is what you got uh and you put together a cut and we're moving on to the next movie and how much of it is like this is actually a very very very deep portrait of x y or z but watching this beautiful beautiful man inflate himself go bald and stuff himself in a velour suit and just be sad and smoke with the pigeons and that's the crumbling heart of gucci this is the this is like a namesake for this

empire and he is just a broken sad little guy who is getting kicked around and overtaken by people who are more cutthroat and smarter and outside influences. And it's actually like the performance within the sort of tapestry of the movie really, really worked for me. Now, I don't know whether Ridley Scott was like, exactly, that's exactly what I was going for when I read this script. Or if he was just like, great, that seems good and that seems good and we're going to move on. And that I think is a question that you know if he answers if he answers those questions right more often than not in his more recent movies then you get a good movie and if he's just kind of like yada yada's them you get all the money in the world you know you know it's i think you're exactly right and i think what you're describing is about the empowerment of actors ridley loves

to work with movie stars he is incredible at filming framing and and platforming movie stars. He is incredible at filming, framing, and platforming movie stars. And this movie is a great example of that. All the Money in the World is such a fascinating question there, because of course, Mark Wahlberg and Michelle Williams are movie stars. But Kevin Spacey was originally J. Paul Getty in that movie. And I remember, I went back and looked at this before I saw House of Gucci. That first trailer for All the Money in the World, you guys may remember this, it kind of like culminates in this reveal in the final shot of the trailer of Kevin Spacey in all of this makeup as Getty. And it was a kind of like a boom. It was like an Avengers Endgame kind of like, bet you didn't see this coming kind of a moment. And then shortly thereafter, all of the revelations

about Spacey came aboard, but you kind of felt like they were setting up a similar kind of performance from Spacey to kind of build the movie around the way this movie is weirdly built around jared leto at times in a way that i never expected when i sat down to watch it um i think that you you you nailed something very specific i mean also samahayak jeremy irons like these are very good actors academy award nominated actors who are kind of like playing a little below the taste that we expect from them i think sometimes jeremy irons is really trying to maintain his level of like dignity in this movie but it's tough what was the the jennifer lawrence spy movie that jeremy irons just showed up yeah

red sparrow jeremy irons it's not below his taste okay he's gonna show up and wear a smoking jacket and be like slightly disgusted by everyone in the frame. And that's what he does beautifully. And I think this is right at his level. And you need someone just to like have a weird mustache and smoke and be like, what's wrong with all of you? He also is really good at representing because I think that there's like a subtle tension. It's not subtle. It's talked about in the movie itself. But northern Italians and they're kind of more, I would say like,

you know, it's just more of a European, pan-European sensibility, I think, in Turin and Milan. And it's this idea that there's this Swiss and German influence

going on up there. Whereas in the South, and this is the reaction to Patrizia when she's introduced to the Jeremy Irons character is just kind of like, she's probably in the mafia. Her dad runs a trucking company. She's

from the South. I'm not into this. I thought he represented that kind of old money thing really well with his fading movie star look. And what a cravat game he had going. I mean, come on. The courtyard where he greets Al pacino it's beautiful

his pink house extraordinary this movie is very special i can't wait to see it again i just want to share two quick what ifs with you guys which i did not realize as i was researching this so in 2006 ridley was supposed to make this movie 15 years ago and it was supposed to be with with Leo as Maurizio and Angelina Jolie as Patrizia would you have wanted that movie I'm trying to think just physically where Leonardo is and in 2006 in terms of body of lies yeah it's departed it's departed era okay yeah I could see it it's it's different right because angelina lady gaga is of course uh a beautiful and striking woman but there is something i think about her look that indicates

something like that that tension that you're describing between jeremy irons is uh kind of point of view of her angelina jolie is so statuesque and so so it's just sort of like image of perfection and that i i want it would have i think it might have altered my perception of the story that they were telling here and to lady gaga's credit in this movie she like her her physical presentation and the clothes kind of disintegrate along with her um her character's stature and so by... I mean, are we not spoiling this movie? I don't think we should spoil it too much. Did you really not know what was going to happen?

I never read anything about this in my life. Okay. Fascinating. I mean, there's been a lot of journalism about this. Anyway, the final scenes when Lady Gaga reaches her character arc, she does not look glamorous anymore. We'll put it that way.

And intentionally so. And it's kind of hard to unglamour Angelina Jolie. As we just saw in Eternals. There's one other what if. In 2016, Wong Kar Wai was going to direct this movie with Margot Robbie as Patrizia. Now, I don't remember hearing that. Me neither.

But that would have been fascinating. This is also like Wong Kar Wai had like an Amazon show that was supposed to be like a New York City gang's show. I don't know what Wong is up to, but make movies. Are you calling bullshit on this?

No, I'm just like, he definitely went through from 2014 till even now where it's just like, where's the movie? Come on, let's do it. It's a good point. You know, great art takes a long time to cook unless you're Ridley Scott and you have to make two movies in the same year. Let's talk about Ridley. I may have told this story before on the show, and I apologize if I haven't.

I'm just going to tell it again. In 2010, CR and I went to the movies together. We went to go see a movie called Robin Hood. At the time, I was living in Park Slope. I was living on the ground floor of a brownstone. Amanda, you've been to that apartment in the past. And in the basement of that apartment, which often flooded and was filled with CD jewel cases,

Chris Ryan and I recorded a podcast about Ridley Scott. We did not work together at the time. This was pre-Grantland. It was just for fun. Just two bros talking Ridley. Shawno Trap House. That's what we called it. And that pod has been destroyed

and we'll never see the light of day. Are we sure? We're not totally sure. Here's the thing. No matter what, I'm certain that Chris was magnificent because Chris had the touch from moment one. But I think even then, we both knew that this is something that would have been fun for us to do, to be able to talk

about, especially Ridley, who I think really scratches a particular itch. He's kind of a meeting point for Chris and I in terms of movie taste. So it's fun that we get a chance now to talk about our favorites here. Amanda, it's fun to also put you through some of the pains of the Ridley Scott movie experience. I was live vlogging some of my rewatching for Sean and Chris yesterday. Yeah, there were some things I did revisit and some things that I just didn't feel it was appropriate at this point in my life to revisit. And that's okay. That doesn't mean that those images haven't stayed with me, you know? becoming a film director. He is a person who is often considered a stylist first and a storyteller second. We may quibble with that on this show, but is well known to sort of rise to the quality of his material. He's made about 10 movies in his career that are phenomenal. He's made five movies that are all-time classics that will go down in history as some of the best films ever

made. I'm not sure he ever made a bad one. Well, that's an interesting point because I think some people would quibble with that and say that at times he has taken on projects that maybe he was not capable of translating to the screen or seemed like kind of paycheck jobs

or maybe to your point earlier, like an opportunity to go visit somewhere. So looking at his career now is really interesting. I mean, he's in, I believe he's 84 years old, which is extraordinary to be making two films

as vital as The Last Duel and House of Gucci at that age. I'm 39. I'm like, maybe I have a year of podcasting left. I did two pods yesterday and I needed to lie down. So he is really just a very, very special person. Chris, I'll start with you since I know he's such a big figure for you when you think of ridley what do you think of how would you describe your relationship to his movies

explain the ridley scott experience so he's a really interesting filmmaker because i think that psychologically i sometimes place him with the great auteurs whose movies become these big events so like whether you're talking about like a pta or quentin tarantino not generally generationally but in terms of like the way i view him you's like, oh, one of the great filmmakers. Then you look at the filmography and you're like, man, there's a lot of just studio work here. There's just a lot of you were curious, you made the movie, or maybe you got brought in by a movie star to do this and you thought it would be fun. And every single time out, he makes something worth watching. Every single time out, I think he makes something that actually stands the test of time. Because when you go back through this filmography, a lot of these are movies that I had a lot of anticipation for, a lot of enthusiasm for as they were coming. And then maybe in the theater, I was like, it's not really what I thought the Alien sequel from Ridley Scott was

going to be, or it's not really what I thought it was going to be when Ridley Scott did a CIA movie or something. But then you go back, you revisit it, it's on cable, maybe you fire it up on streaming, and you're like, this is just better than anything I've seen in a long time. This is quite obviously the work of a master craftsman. And I should say, usually we've mentioned these kinds of things and it sounds like lip service. I think he's an incredible manager because he works with the same people over and over again. That's why he can work at the pace he works at. And they are quite clearly the best at what they do. Arthur Max is quite clearly the best

production designer working in Hollywood. Darius Wolsky is quite clearly the best production designer working in Hollywood. Darius Wilski is one of the best cinematographers working. Claire Simpson's one of the best editors. He goes back to these people. They have a Clint Eastwood-esque sort of production line where they just can crank these out. And I just love his curiosity and I love his depth of frame. He just is such a beautiful, beautiful composition, maker of compositions and storyteller. And even when there's mistakes or even when there's like flaws, I still find the flaws pretty interesting. Yeah. One other thing that I really like about him is that he swings hard. Exodus, Gods and Kings is one of his least successful movies, but is there a bigger swing than Exodus, Gods, and Kings? That is truly a tale of the 10 plagues.

And it's admirable that someone is willing to do that. Now, obviously, he takes on smaller films. He'll take on your matchstick men or your Hannibal or something like that. Amanda, one of the other things about him, and I don't mean to gender you specifically, but Worthy is well known for having really strong, interesting female characters in his movies. Yes. They are often at the center of the frame. And even if they're not, they are actually developed characters and he's interested in them and he allows them to be tough. He allows them to be funny. He is as interested in them as he is in the male characters, which just makes all the difference.

I feel like we watch a lot of movies where no one put much thought into what the wife is doing or the girlfriend or the mean person at the office. So that is certainly one of the appeals. I would say the other and the reason that I think he is a favorite of everyone on this podcast is just because he truly believes in that like popular entertainment can also be like well executed and that there is a craft

and an art to making like a hundred million dollar movie about dudes like fighting each other in ancient Rome you know like and and that genre doesn't have to mean lowest common denominator. And so not everything works, but he's always trying. He's curious. And it's kind of like, I would always prefer that a good director be given a lot of money to make my sci-fi movie or my fashion movie or my Western or whatever. And that doesn't always happen. But he's like, yeah, we can make this good. There's no reason that this shouldn't be good

just because a lot of people want to watch it. He is someone who I think represents, in some respects, the kind of end of an era. There was a lot of reporting on the struggles of the last duel to earn money at the box office. And he is one of the last frankly dinosaurs who's able to command the movie stars necessary and the funding necessary to mount some of these films i really hope they don't go out with him um you know he's working on on a film called kit bag right now with jody comer which i believe is about napoleon

and joaquin ph. So, you know, again... And it has Gladiator 2 planned for after that. So, yeah, I need him to live to like 105 so that we can get more of these movies. What do you make of all these 80-something filmmakers who are just like, I will not go down quietly. Like, I'm gonna

crank out, like, Scorsese's just like, here's a Grateful Dead movie. I'm doing it. Well well I'm glad you mentioned that because it throughout his career he's obviously been incredibly productive and I didn't I locate this

one weird period between 1992 and 1996 where he didn't make any films and I don't really know I don't know enough about him to know what he was going through maybe something in his personal

life maybe he just wanted to take a break from making these movies he made 1492 conquest of paradise in 92 which is of course one of his famous bombs yeah and i wonder if he took a step back and and recalibrated the kind of work he wanted to do at that time but otherwise i think much like clint eastwood chris he is he

defines himself by his ability to work and to work well and um obviously he had two movies in 2017 and he has now two movies in 2021 that probably would have been spaced out a little bit more if not for the pandemic. Let's talk about our favorites. I will front load this by saying we have a very obvious conclusion, one and two here, because I think it would be difficult to not cite literally two of the best movies ever made at that. But we tried to get a little bit more creative with the rest of our picks. Chris, I'm going to start with you.

Yeah. What's your number five? So I went with Prometheus and Covenant as a twofer, which are, you know, Prometheus is obviously a movie that I think that we've referenced a lot as loving quite a bit. But Covenant is something that I just revisited for this podcast and was absolutely fucking blown away by how good it was.

These are two movies that I think are drastically underrated because of their participation in like, obviously the alien franchise and going up against two of the best, uh, genre movies ever made alien and aliens, but are so chock full of ideas and, um, weirdness and maybe lack a defining performance the way

sigourney weaver was in the first few alien movies uh i guess fast bender is supposed to be that character but um i couldn't believe watching these two that they that they have kind of considered failures in some way and i guess they're failures because of their box office performance. But even Covenant, which I think most people looked at as a step down from Prometheus, the first hour of Covenant is utterly terrifying, like more scary than almost any horror movie

you could think of. And I don't know why people didn't talk about it as much, but I wanted to shout out these sort of late period, really seemingly paycheck jobs that are actually far more thought provoking than almost anything else that could come out around this kind of material. Yeah. And we've heard his disdain for the potential Noah Hawley alien project. And I think that that's because he does feel a sense of ownership over these films. He has a more emotional relationship. Alien is only

his second film that he ever made. And I think he knows how important it is to his legacy. Amanda, are you really going for it with your number five? I think so. Listen, I tried on some other things. And as you said, we sort of parceled out some of the three to eight range. I really wanted to do a good year guys i tried so hard i watched it again it's not very good it's not good i did like then end up just like house shopping in provence for a while i can't really afford anything there yet some of like the french property laws are a little you know uh impenetrable to me. But I did my best and I couldn't do it. So I'm going with House of Gucci

because this is what I want Ridley Scott to be doing. And I think the appeal of, you know, these like mid-tier movies are, how do you want this like just complete expert craftsman of so many different genres to spend his time and the money that he can secure and the movie stars that he can get. And for me, like not to spoil somebody else's pick,

but some people may choose a very, very long medieval battle sequence. And some people may choose a Cormac McCarthy novel. And I choose like beautiful people in Italy wearing Gucci. You know, I just like, it's like, it's one for me so thank you Sir Ridley I truly appreciate you well you you effectively previewed uh my number five which is The Counselor sure yes I got no shame about this one either in the same way that I'm like Prometheus is sick sick. The counselor is sick. Of course, it has a preposterous script by Cormac McCarthy, overriding his way straight into the moon. Of course, the performances are ridiculous.

Fassbender, Penelope Cruz, Cameron Diaz, Javier Bardem, Brad Pitt, Ruben Blattis, a number of other people who are chewing the way Al chews his way through House of Gucci. Of course, this movie looks beautiful. Of course, the production design and the costumes, the great Malkina dresses, the car that she humps, the bolito that strangles one of the key characters near the end of the film. Every little piece is beautiful. It's all the same people that Chris just described who've been working with him for the last 10 or 15 years now consistently. This is the same way the House of Gucci takes

you into a world. This takes you into a world of high-powered devils. This is the bad place what all of these people are doing, which is to say running drugs, working with cartels, and using this Fassbender character again as kind of a POV character, not unlike the Gaga character taking us into this world.

But he too is a piece of shit. And if you are a- The Gaga character, like I don't defend anything the character does. No, I know, I know. But I think that Ridley also has a real keen interest

in the dark heart of man. And that seems a bit pretentious, but it's true. He really likes that. But I love that he's not the author of this movie. You know what I mean? It's McCarthy through and through if you've read his stuff and the

performances override any of the direction. In some ways, it's almost like a stage play adaptation in places. It does. It does feel that way. Yes. And he'll fucking do that. It doesn't all need to be Sir Ridley and my ideas and my thing. He'll be like, oh, I really like this. I really like The Martian. I really like this bottle of wine or whatever, or this David Ignatius book. And I'll just make it. It's not too precious. But he does so by also shooting the cheetahs galloping and killing the prey.

You know what I mean? Like he's still doing this really, really high tension, beautiful, like basically American Express commercial style photography that is captivating when you have a Corman McCarthy script. So, okay, let's go to number four. Chris. Okay, so I'm going to go with Black Hawk Down Here.

So this is his modern war film. In a lot of ways, it's one of the most, I would say, visceral depictions of warfare outside of Saving Private Ryan that you'll ever see. It's probably one of his more controversial movies because I think that rightfully people have pointed out some of the depictions of the Somali combatants that are not exactly nuanced. And also it takes some liberties historically with what may or may not have happened in Mogadishu at the time. That being said, this is an example of the adaptability of his filmmaking.

So you think of Ridley Scott and you think of control and you think of these beautiful frames and this depth of the imagery and this beauty. And then this is very much like his late brother Tony's movies where it's like rip and run, handheld, chaos. And I kind of just can't believe that even throughout what is basically a 90-minute action sequence to end this film, you always know where you are. You always kind of see, understand what's at stake. You understand the task that's in front of the actors.

And speaking of the actors, I guess I don't even know if i should if this is to his credit every single performer that we ever talk about on this podcast is in this movie like the cast of this movie including people who have one line where it's just like that's tom hardy like that's just that's tom hardy with three lines in this film so um i re-watched this again recently and i was like yeah i can i can see why i this this film so um i re-watched this again recently and i was like yeah i can i can see why i this this film definitely has like some real like structural integrity or flaws but as a piece of filmmaking it's hard to figure out like if anyone else in the history of movies could have

done this movie amazing movie i found this movie a little hard to re-watch it's a it's very intense and and you really have to lock into it. You can't, to me, I can't watch this. I mean, there's machine gun fire

nonstop for basically more than an hour. But it's an incredible piece of work, obviously. Okay, Amanda, what do you got?

The Martian. Apollo 13 on Mars? Sure, I'll take it. You know, this is obviously like kind of a late period Matt Damon signature performance and a lot about Ridley Scott assembling casts and also assembling like beautiful vistas.

I mean, what a beautiful recreation of Mars. It's the Mars that exists in my head forever. But this is an interesting one because it is like so warm hearted, which certainly for any movie set in space, it's not really what you've come to expect, like things working out and like, and people being together and teamwork in a Ridley Scott film. But that's what the script is.

And again, it's one of those things where he puts this great cast together and just kind of goes with it. And it is like it is that crowd pleasing, like possibly slightly jingoistic, but we'll look past it like we're all going to figure it out. And problem solving movie, which I just I love a movie when there's a problem and they solve it. I just find it so reassuring. Like, thank you. It worked out um but you know like an interesting late period answer to uh many of his early movies which are about alienation and how human beings suck uh

especially in space um and and he can still even though it's not his original themes he can sell it and it just and it zips along and moves so fast you can feel his kind of like, we're just going to get this and we're going to, there's like an efficiency and a competence that runs through a lot of his best work

that is also like what this movie is about in a lot of ways. And I just enjoy it. An all-time great plane movie. Rewatched it on a plane recently. This is the kind of movie that I worry not only because of the way the studios are trending anyway,

but the more and more filmmakers who make one movie and then go into superhero-dom, I worry that nobody's going to know how to make a movie like this in 10 years or 15 years. Do you know what I mean? And maybe that's a little bit... I'm not trying to be dismissive of people who make Eternals or Spider-Man movies. I just want them to come out the other side and be like, I'd like to do something with that scale, but with like this story. And that was what Ridley Scott never, you know, I mean, I'm sure he had, you know, I'm

sure he could have made a superhero movie or a franchise film and he has his own franchise for heaven's sake. But this is the one, these are the kinds of movies that I worry we're not going to get anymore. I agree with you. Amanda, the other thing that I love about The not going to get anymore. I agree with you. Amanda, the other thing that I love about The Martian is,

is that it's also a great comedy. And I think Ridley is perhaps a little underrated as a director of comic material. I'm going to make a last minute change

to my list just for the sake of widening the number of films that we're doing. So I'll let you have your number three. I'll take that movie out of the mix.

I'll make my number four Matchstick Men. So match thick men, Chris, I heard you talking about this on the watch with regard to the shrink next door, but nothing like a great con man movie, right? Con men movies, some of the best movies of all time. Maybe one day we'll have a great episode about those kinds of movies. This is one of the better ones out there. Uh, it's also really funny, hardcore black comedy that, um, you don't think of when you think of Ridley you think of him doing like you said Chris the swords and the shields the xenomorph bursting through our chest but he has a way with great characters and with big big big actors that we've been talking about in this episode who's bigger than Nicolas Cage Nick Cage and Sam Rockwell both chewing on

the scenery here too in a kind of a kind of a classic rewatchable kind of a like i could slide in at any time with this movie it's incredibly um it's incredibly well made and propulsive but if when you watch it and take it apart its component parts it's clearly made by somebody who's a filmmaking genius like you could just shoot this movie in singles and two shots all day long and just like two characters talking and walking down the street but this is like chopped up in a very specific way the editing reflects the struggles that the nicholas cage character is going through it looks beautiful it looks like kind of like this like washed out nevada bleached sun feeling throughout it and again it's like it's just a question of

him rising to the material it's written by ted griffin right at the height of his you know oceans 11 times as a as a screenwriter and ted griffin is like a genius of these weird like little twists on characters that you know pull the rug out from under you and i just really like this movie so for the sake of talking about more good movies matchstick men's number four okay number three cr uh kingdom of heaven the director's cut yes yes chris i think i've talked about it enough on this podcast but it is the story of a blacksmith in france and in i think gosh whenever the crusades were happening can't dial that one up on the old brain box. 1986. 1986. George Michael's Faith is playing. No, it's about the bastard son of a crusade knight who goes to Jerusalem

with his father to find his way in the world and finds himself quickly enmeshed in a war between the French military presence in Jerusalem and the Muslim army outside of it.

And, uh, features some of the great battle sequences Scott has ever staged. Um, features a lot of awesome palace intrigue. The director's cut of it is just full fucking Kubrick. It's just like every, every little detail that you would squeeze out of a normal,

like two hour movie. He just squeezes into this three hour movie. Um, one of my favorite of a normal two-hour movie, he just squeezes into this three-hour movie. One of my favorite Jeremy Irons performances in this movie, great Liam Neeson. Bloom is fine. Eva Green is out of her mind. And Edward Norton as a king with leprosy is the best. You never see his face.

It's just an awesome movie. If people haven't had a chance to check it out, please go see the director's cut. It's honestly like it's you know it's not as good as Lawrence of Arabia, but if you like those kinds of epic intermission worthy movies, please go see this. Let me just make sure I've got you on the record here. You said better

than Lawrence of Arabia, right? It's like fuck Star Wars. Well, we couldn't have done this episode without you caping for that. So good call, Chris. How often do you watch this movie, Chris? It's a big movie for me and my mom. She loves this movie.

Really? And she has a lot of just interest and stamina for these kinds of movies. So we just throw it on a lot. I mean, like, you know, and then we'll have dinner or something like that. But it's like, it gets pretty regular play back in Philly. That's really cute. I had a related question.

Philadelphia also sort of a kingdom of heaven when you think about it. Okay. All right. Enough. Sean, I had a related question, which was also posed in the comments of your Instagram post many times, which is just like, how are you living with like a exodus gods and kings like blu-ray tvd like tell us about those choices do you engage with it like do you put it on i just like i just want to understand um well first of all you're referencing a comment made uh by our Alex Ross Perry who uh likes to give me shit for owning these things, but also Alex worked at Kim's for years and he also owns his fair share of shit. Yeah, but there's like owning stuff

and then there's owning this Blu-ray. So there's two things, right? One, this is very generous of you to ask me to talk about these things because I know that you ultimately don't care, but you're just being a good partner. Oh, she cares. She's just concerned.

It's also right. I'm just like, why? It's's just concerned. I'm just like, why? It's not like cool. I would just like to understand some of like the functionality. I know. Amanda has never said sincerely to me. Oh,

that's cool. I've never once gotten that. That's not true. I have this weird, obvious, weird relationship to physical media where I have a fear about the impending doom surrounding, what our streaming you should is like the metaverse you know i get it yes but like that's the one you're gonna have then well i i'm i feel like i'm working towards a project like i feel like in my life at this phase i'm working towards a project of kind of understanding

the landscape of american studio movies for 100 years like. Like that is something I'm, I'm trying to commit to. And so for filmmakers like that, and Ridley is like kind of an easy one to work around, you know, I'm, I'm actually really interested in like, I'm literally focused now in this project on John Sturgis. I'm like, how many John Sturgis movies have I not yet seen? That's just a personal weird thing of mine. It's, it's my hobby. And I think when, when Ridley Scott passes away, I want to be able to say i can pull exodus gods and kings off the shelf and do the thing that chris i thought eloquently described which is give it another chance and say maybe i the first time i saw it and i remember seeing it i saw with rembrandt brown it was i believe it was the the he was in town for a

grantland party of some kind and um and we walked out and we were like that was just a piece of shit you know just like that was absolutely terrible um and i i don't understand the casting i don't understand and he gave some i thought insensitive comments about why he didn't cast uh actors from the regions that are portrayed in the film anyway nevertheless maybe maybe i'll turn around on that movie when i watch it again and i want to be able to have it in my hand. I don't want to have to hope that Tubi TV is going to be showing a version of it in 2023. I want to just have it for myself. But Sean, wouldn't you rather spend Dogecoin to watch, like to be part of Exodus Gods and Kings, colon the metaverse, when we can all just put on Oculus visors and that's how we experience films then? Here's another way to think of it.

Like if you're going to use the language of investment, this is an underrated commodity right now. Like these Blu-rays cost like $6.99. I spend twice as much on a sandwich that I never think about 20 minutes later. So to have that forever, I'm willing to punt on the sandwich, you know? How's the storage going? Looks good right now. If we had to punt on the sandwich you know how's the storage going looks

good right now i if like if we had eileen on the podcast you might have something else to say i mean yeah i'm i'm mad i'm here advocating for eileen i just like you have a lovely home i do think you're you have and you have so much shelving i'm hugely jealous and i also know that that shelf shelving is like basically already full it's's almost full and yes, I just built it. So I don't know what I'm going to do long term. I don't know. Yeah, like do you have, are you going to start accepting funding for your archival project?

And then now I'm just worried about like your kids' education. I'm more worried when you pivot to film and you're like, I'm getting my original print of gods and kings. Like my heroes? uh I would that it were you know would that it were that's all I can say about that I if I need to get a canister storage space I will get it um listen maybe one day we'll do a uh exploring the shelving episode of this podcast oh that would be fun not today yeah uh let's go back to our lists so where do we leave off are we on number three for you amanda yeah okay which you you just vacated allowing me to claim for myself

all things being equal this would also have been my number i mean this is where it gets a little boring like no duh thelma and louise like one of the great american films of the last 100 years and a prime example of Ridley Scott just like understanding what to do with female characters and and women and like being interested in them I thought he gave a very spicy interview to Deadline recently which I 100% recommend and talked about how Calicuri wrote this script and their difference of take on like how funny this movie is. And this, this movie is like, obviously, um, has a, has a lot of dark themes, including sexual assault and murder and, you know, strange, you know, upsetting domestic situations.

Um, not, not to mention it's ending, I suppose, but to find the comedy in this Sean that you were talking about really as a way to like find the heart and the comedy in this, Sean, that you were talking about, really is a way to find the heart and the warmth. I mean, this is a friendship movie and a really strangely hopeful movie, again, given the very famous ending, which I guess I won't say it, but if I'm spoiling the ending of Thelma and Louise for you, please stop listening to this podcast and just go watch Thelma and Louise. Like let let's,

let's all accept reality together. Um, Gina Davis, Susan Sarandon. I just tremendous performances. And again, you know, like very beautiful,

obviously like the, um, the, many of the vistas in Thelma and Louise have something in common with the Martian. That's another desert landscape that he likes. And then one of the single most iconic shots of all time. So shout out Thelma and Louise. That deadline interview is so interesting, Amanda, because it kind of goes back to what

we were saying about making choices. It's like, maybe that didn't suit Callie Curry and all respect to her for writing this movie. But a filmmaker comes in and they're like, this is a comedy. This is what we're going to do. We're going to play up in all of this tragedy and all this trauma. We're going to play up these two people finding laughs with each other, solace with each other. That's a choice. And I love that he is... Go watch Covenant and Prometheus. It's just choices after choices after choices. There is no notes in that movie.

I mean, you can see some, but like he's like, what if Jesus Christ was an alien? It's like it is out there, you know? Is he not?

Can you confirm that? Let's do my number three quickly. If I'm overthinking things on Matchstick Men, I'm trying not to overthink things with my number three, which is Gliator uh let us not underrate how sick it was when gladiator came out do you remember that remember when we all agreed that gladiator was

amazing and then it won best picture and everything was great in the world that was awesome i i that was a version of monoculture i could really get behind uh obviously a incredible historical drama of a sort um about a a warrior who has been betrayed and is kind of fighting his way back to dignity and the sanctity of his family, but also featuring some of the best battle sequences you'll ever see. Some of the kind of the earliest digital photography staging of this kind of like Roman Colosseum setting, which is interesting. Not all of it has aged that well. Chris, I feel like you guys talked about this maybe on the rewatchables, but Russell Crowe at the center of this movie. And it's funny, Amanda, Bill just mentioned this

to us last week about how Russell Crowe had an ability to ping pong from movie to movie and radically transform himself. But I think when we look back on his career, we won't think of a beautiful mind no we won't think of unhinged no you know are you not entertained you'll just see him in the middle exactly of the coliseum yeah yes he is maximus that is who we will think of whereas you've sort of modeled your podcasting career off comedus sean just did the very slow thumbs down that was good this is just a great movie. It's also a movie that I think has a real sensibility about the 60s and 70s swords and sandals films of its time as well.

Oliver Reed is in this movie. Derek Jacoby, Richard Harris, really pulling out all the stops with great English actors to support this new wave of great actors, Joaquin, Connie Nielsen, etc., Jimen Honsu. Just like a really rollicking, powerful, entertaining, right down the middle version of a movie that Ridley is so, so good at. So whether number two

happens or not, I'm intrigued. I still want the Nick Cave scripted version that takes place in Hades, but I don't think we're ever going to get that. I don't think so either.

Shall we collectively do two and one? Yeah, because they're all the same. So we all went really without checking each other's work. Blade Runner number two and Alien number one. Yeah, you have to. We've dedicated a lot of time to both of these movies and various conversations over the years. I guess, Amanda, like what does

Blade Runner mean to you? Like, obviously we recognize it as this incredible work of production design and style and kind of prescience in terms of, like, what it foretells, but what clicks for you? Yeah, well, I would say

that both Blade Runner and Alien, to me, set the entire tone visually and expectations-wise for their respective genres. I mean, and that's a little bit because of when I come to those genres, right? Like, I was born was born after blade runners 82 is that right yep so i'm i came to

movies much later and when the sci-fi and i guess horror alien movies respectively um have been reacting to these movies for a decade. But so I'll be honest, I rewatched most of Blade Runner for this podcast. And I don't know that I totally enjoy it as a watching experience, because again, you know, I'd rather Ridley Scott be spending his money on, on,

on fashion movies than sci-fi movies. It's just, it's, it's a taste thing. And it's kind of the world that, or just like, you know, at some point I'm like i'm like okay well is he a replicant or not you know like i i like the plot is not my cup of tea totally but in terms of introducing the who's human and who's not and how to cinematize that which is now like every other damn movie about, oh, does the robot have feelings,

which I don't really care about. You go to Blade Runner. And then I think it has to be like among the top five most like visually influential movies of all time. You know, especially living in Los Angeles. I just, we walk around all the time. He invented so many people's whole fucking thing with like five shots in Blade Runner. Yeah, it's like, oh oh it's a blade runner day like it that there's just it's a whole visual language

um i mean that looks amazing it's 40 years old and it looks like it was made yesterday both of these movies have not aged a single second both of these blade runner and alien you can watch i i watch them and i am as taken by them now as i was the first time i was seeing them when i was a kid uh i i noticed something different in these movies every single time both of these movies in their pitch are just like there's an alien on a ship or this guy's trying to figure out who's a robot and who's not it's a detective story okay you give that to 99 filmmakers they make something that's like okay or hackney hackneyed or um screws it up somehow or doesn't like fully understand how to like convey feeling through a look not him you

know it's just it's just overwhelming like the the realization of a world and when you can do that the way he does which is visually which is here i'm gonna do all the work in the background of this frame so that the story's the front you don don't have to do all of this laborious, here's what happened. And obviously the voiceover in Blade Runner is in, and then it's out, and then it's in, and then it's out throughout the various cuts of that movie. But Alien especially,

that's like you can write the story for Alien on the back of a bar napkin. And you think about what it gave us and everything that's come from that movie. And it still plays as an amazing workplace trauma. You just watch that and you're like, oh my God, this feels incredibly real. Yeah, I kind of don't know what to say about Alien in particular.

Where I've seen it, it's among my most watched movies ever made. We just called it like the best horror movie ever made basically the other week. You know, we were like, you can't really call it a horror movie, but if it was, it's easily the best horror movie ever made. Yeah, there's been an incredible amount of scholarship around it and I think there is something

kind of intellectually penetrating about it even to this day, but it's also just one of the most viscerally captivating movies ever made you know it really still can it gets in in under my skin in a way that i think you can't underestimate the the decisions and the quality of filmmaking that go into making you feel that way and while i do love prometheus and covenant and i do love i mean i there's things about G.I. Jane that I like there's things about um you know Black Rain that I think are really cool but Alien is it it kind of exceeds cinema for me it goes to like

another place where it is it gets it infects me and that's obviously part of what the story is about but um and maybe that's purposeful and it's in its design but um just I I remain kind of like a borderline speechless about how to talk about it yeah i i've obviously i'm a person who doesn't like horror movies and doesn't like being grossed out by things and this is like one of the best movies ever made even to me because to chris is like it is a horror movie but it transcends it it also just seems like it's inventing um definitely uh gross aliens and uh like the workplace drama but also just kind of like the the lean dread efficiency that this movie has where you don't have to know that much about anything that about these people everything's like right there for you as you said the plot is fair but terrifying

which is kind of also the point of the movie and people have just been trying to reproduce it for for 40 years the same guy made the grossest monsters just like amazing holy shit the same guy made alien and house of gucci like what the hell yeah that's such a great great great career golf clap for that. Incredible golf clap. Any closing thoughts on Ridley Scott, the man? Just keep cranking.

Keep him coming, man. I'm down for Kit Bag. I'm down for Gladiator 2. Don't waste your time on Raised by Wolves. Like, just keep making movies. I'm with you. CR, thank you very much.

Now let's go to my conversation with Chris Frierson. Very delighted to be joined by Chris Frierson. Chris, congrats on DMX. Don't try to understand. Thank you very much. Happy to be here. Chris, take me back to the beginning of this project. Where did it come from? How did you become a part of it? So like long story shorter,

I worked at Massville and I worked a production company and I was working in development. And we had the opportunity there to pitch our own things and blah, blah, blah. And I started just thinking about Earl DMX as a character that we could do something with. Because we had rappers coming in and out of the office all the time. And the reason why I chose him is not only because he was one of my favorite rappers growing up is I think that he's he was a person that was sort of defined by the media and you know his narrative was not that of his own is what I thought um and I'm really interested in characters and people who go through that sort of existence. If you live long enough, do you see yourself become the villain type shit? And so I pitched it.

Weirdly, oddly enough, he came by the office. I wasn't there. And that very day, he came by the office where I was going to pitch it to him. He got locked up because he was on probation. And so he got locked up and then started his year-long prison sentence. So we tried for a year to try to get him in, to talk to him. I talked to him once. And the year went by and I

found out when he was getting out and I was like, yo, we have this one opportunity. Let's just, and I've been in touch with his manager. Let's just go to West Virginia and just link up with the manager and we'll just show up like outside the jail. And you see it in the movie. That's what we did. Like it was just myself Sean, and Clark, the producers and stuff. We just rolled up and ended up spending 64 hours driving back to New York with him and his friends. And that's kind of how the whole thing started. How did he receive you when he saw you? Because that's obviously a big moment getting out of a year-long sentence.

He had been somewhat forewarned. I think his exact words were to his manager was like, oh, shit, you ain't fucking around. Because he saw the cameras and stuff. There was something like four or five of us. But he was just happy to get out of jail. I jumped in the car with him. And I was wearing a Teed jacket at the time. So for, I was called Chris Tweed or just Tweed for quite some time until we got to know each other better.

But it was, it was, we sat in the car and just talked. And before long, it was just, I just knew that if it wasn't what I thought it was, it was something much better. Like, because we just talked and I got to that car ride home was, I just, I learned so much in that, in that period of time, you know, it's weird being put in a car with your favorite rapper fresh out of jail. Like, and just, you're just filming the whole time. Like that's just not the place I thought I would be whatever, whoever the rapper or person would be, but it was just open. So you conceived of this basically at some point early in 2018. And then by 2019,

you're off and running. So you're with him as he gets out of prison. Right. And then how do you continue to trail him? Because he seems, I mean, he's, in my experience, he's elusive. Yeah, exactly. Well, at some point, we were just like, all right, we're, I believe that ride home was where Earl, like, got, like, he understood what I wanted to do, that I wasn't trying to manipulate him, um, or misrepresent him. Like I, and I, I've had, I had several conversations

about that, but, um, I think just that ride was sort of, all right, like this, this motherfucker's for real, I think. And, um, so we knew he was going on tour and I, and I also like, we followed up, like he had to go to his probation officer next, the next week we were there, he had to go do some shit, like to set up for his tour or whatever. We were there. We just kind of like in tandem with pat gallo his manager who kind of let us know and his friends where he was we would just go and that's like sort of how we do it's like me calling pat or meech or spank these are all some of his friends or hawk and like yo do you know where he is you show up and since he didn't think we were trying to fuck with him, like, well, yeah, let's go to Maxwell's in White Plains and eat chicken wings and play pool. Do you know what you said to him in that first car ride that made it clear to him you weren't trying to manipulate him, that ingratiated you to him somehow?

It wasn't one thing. I didn't say a certain thing to convince him. I might've said a sentence like, Hey, you know, we're just the little pitch of, you know, we just want to show like the real you, something like that. I don't think that mattered.

I think what matters, like I didn't ask him any questions. I didn't ask him any questions about rap music at all. I don't think the whole time we were together, I don't think we ever talked about rap music, but in that period of time I didn't talk to him about anything that I think he's you would be used to being asked it wasn't really it was just a conversation and I think maybe he thought like oh this is different because this dude's not peppering me with questions like why were you in jail how was

the jail and you know what is you know what is your freedom at this you know like shit like that yeah so is that purposeful though as a strategy just to say like i'm not this isn't an interview you're not you don't have to perform to me as a media participant it was 100% because, I mean, A, that's not the way that I normally work. And I don't like asking those kind of questions, unless like later on in a project, you know, you got to, but like, to me, it's like when you, I think the nature of docs for me personally is when there's a relationship between the subject and you know the the the person behind the camera it's it's such a very it's such a important relationship and you can see it you can see it in in every film like if the person being interviewed fucks with the dude who's asking the questions like and when they do it's beautiful doesn't mean it's necessary but you know you want that because otherwise it's just people kind of yes anding you so that's an improv it's an improv joke strong reference yeah um when you were a kid i think we're probably around the

same age he bloomed pretty large in my music consumption too what was it about him that you connected to it's hindsight so i might be like putting more on it than i should be like the the high school literature teacher who thinks everything in the great gaspy means something but i i think that like he stuck out to me in the same way that m&m stuck out stuck out to me is in that period of time, you know, everyone's talking about cars and money and shit and violence and that, which I'm a black kid who grew up in suburban Michigan, mid Michigan. I have no relationship to any of those things,

but I do have a relationship with, you know, people being like dicks or I personally wasn't bullied per se, but like I have gotten my ass kicked before, like, you know, and so in the spectrum of hip hop and rap music, people who were willing to show their vulnerabilities, like, I think that that resonates throughout time spans, because you can you know a lot of the other music is even dated like a Lambo whatever the fuck they're talking about at that particular you know those particular what do they call those I'm trying to think of the the rims that were like

and every rap song anyway that shit goes away but getting your ass kicked is something that everybody eternally will remember or losing someone or being broke or feeling like you know his first album he really put up was called born loser you know those are things and i think that that speaks to that's why at his shows i think people it's a cathartic experience for a lot of people. Because what he's talking about is, you know, he's an everyman type person. And I thought that at that very particular time, two artists that were doing that were DMX and I think M. I'm biased because I'm from Michigan, but so yeah, that's why. Was it important to you to communicate that to Earl when you were working with him?

That you connected to that? About my own personal? Yeah. So he understood why you wanted to do this. No. We never talked about rap music. And we never talked about... I wanted to show him why I wanted to do it more than explain to him why i wanted to do it right um yeah and i don't think i ever

suggested that or said anything about that now the film itself does an amazing job of showing him in circumstances like the ones you're describing when he started out as an artist where we see him in yonkers in the street or we see him in the bar in White Plains connecting with people, regular people. He obviously almost insists upon continuing to be a part of the world in a way that you don't see someone who has his stature necessarily participating. So like you talked about being in touch with, you know, his friends and his manager, but like, how are you,

what's it like to be a fly on the wall watching, I mean, watching him kind of battle slash mentor young rappers in his neighborhood is phenomenal. It's just, it's, you know, he's one of the most charismatic and just like special people that I've ever had the honor and pleasure of like being friends with and, you know, being, you know, at a certain point, you see all the angles that are happening around somebody when you're filmmaker with your subject and you know, this person's doing this and this person's doing this and you see all the palace intrigue, but you can't, I hate to do this, but it makes sense.

You can't tell the king, so to speak. So you're seeing your friend go through this. You can just only advise him based on what's happening. You just develop this thing. So going back to him mentoring people in the world, it's like watching someone you have this very unique, weird friendship, like just again,

do something even extra. Like that makes you feel like this dude is the realest motherfucker out in the deck. Actually, I wrote the realest motherfucker out right now. I think my boss was like, don't send that out with, I had to put the stars but like um

yeah it's he just he's he's in every person he doesn't want to go to a club he was miserable when we had to go to clubs we'll go play pool with every every person we were in charlotte doing something after we went to exodus uh see his doctor and we were sitting in the hotel room and his people were around and where are we going to go? And people were suggesting like clubs and stuff. I was like, yo, I know the dirtiest dive bar in this town.

And he's like, dude, they got a pool table? And I was like, yep. And like went there and like just hung out with all regular people. Because the other stuff doesn't matter. It mattered to him.

Did you get the sense that he was aware of this complicated dance that he's doing where he's essentially trying to improve his life and get out of some bad habits, but also feel safest kind of returning to places where he's most comfortable and knowing that there's like an inherent conflict in those two things. Like, had he kind of verbalized that or intellectualized it at all? I mean, he, he knows and he, he always, you know, he, he mentioned things like that to me about, I mean, he just knows like where the demons are and he knows where he wants to be or where he wanted to be

like he knew when he was in rehab that he needed to be there you know the first time when he disappeared you know but then the doing it part I mean I've been rehab partially because of him, but, um, is, is more, is, is, is a lot. Um, yeah, he, he,

he knew what getting comfortable, what it eventually would lead to, I believe, but it's, that's, it's a hard path to walk when there's a lot of temptation around you a lot of the time it seems like also his desire to kind of reconcile his family his kids but also the things that are pulling him away from that is like a core tension of the movie yeah part of what makes the movie so beautiful did you know that going in that that was going to be such a significant part of the story the the family dynamics yeah i didn't you know everyone knows everyone knows that earl has a ton of kids i knew that um and i had seen the um ion

live uh show where uh xavier's trying they're trying to reconcile the infamous clip um i'm smiling because it's a funny clip um it's painful to watch, but it also is kind of awkward. Yeah, it's like mad funny. So I knew that, you know, I knew, but I didn't know what everybody wanted from one another. I didn't know, I didn't know Dez. I didn't know Exodus, little Exodus. I didn't know exactly what was going on at all.

I also didn't know how much of a, of a father he, like, like he re he gave so much about those kids that, you know, people it's easy to be like, Oh, he had so many kids. He doesn't care. Now he, he cares because he cares because of his own frankly shitty childhood he really cares for all those kids and the ones that

I mean when he was on the ride home he's just calling these kids and he's just so he becomes a child and he just like watches them and blah blah and he loves them yeah we see him playing with exodus so much and he's locked in yeah he's he's he's in a different world when he's with exodus so i forgot the question you answered all right um what was the most surprising thing about spending all this time with him there's nothing like I don't know

I don't know how to answer that question were you not surprised was he what you expected you know that thing when you meet somebody who's famous and you're like and you're about to meet you see them and you're about to have an interaction and you're like alright do I have this interaction because it could ruin like everything I've ever thought about this person.

But if I do have the interaction, like, it's like, it's just going to enhance what I already felt about somebody before. It was the latter. It was like, all right, yeah, this dude is that and more. And like, you know, he, I think he saw, I mean, he said this to me,

but he, he saw a lot of things. This is what was surprising. He told me once that he is, he saw a lot of things in me that he saw in himself, bad and good things. And I was, and I kind of, I think I had seen those over the course of that year,

seeing those two, like, you know, during that year I was struggling with drinking. He took me aside and I mean, he drank, we, me and him drank,

like I can never see Hennessy again, bro. But, shots to Hennessy. He saw that and he like and I had quit for a minute during that time period

and he took me aside and was like yo dude like when he was in rehab he took me aside cause he had offered me he had some booze in rehab he offered me some

I was like I'm good and he took me aside he was like dude I'm really like proud of you bro and because we were both dealing with that same kind of shit

he's that that compassion is like beyond like a regular sort of thing. So I knew he was going through it. And him to know without me being, I wasn't like drunk on set and blah, blah, blah. But like to just know I was dealing with something was that was, that was surprising. I think just because of the nature of what the film was or that relationship was.

Was there ever a part of you that isn't necessarily ethical, but that wanted to intervene at times, or you saw him going down a road or pursuing something. And did you have this conflict of like, this is great for showing him honestly and great for the film but you know him you care about him you spend a lot of time with him you don't want to see him do something that's going to hurt himself no and the reason for that is he when he was doing the bad stuff um he distances himself he separates he I had no idea what was going on.

It's in the movie, actually, too. And I think he does this on purpose because he doesn't want anybody to be around or feel, I know what this is like, or to tell him no, or to feel accountable, or feel that they, to get into that spot where you have to be like, oh, I let him do this. So, and I've been told like historically, that's just what he does.

He just goes. And all you can do is try to find him and make sure that he's cool and safe, which is what we did. Um, but no, I mean, the, the, when we were,

the times we were together, it wasn't, nothing was like really out of control, but like, who knows on the, on the drop of a dime, something can go off. But when it,

when it comes to the, the bad, the quote unquote bad drugs, um, he does, he, he does he he isolates um so the film was shot and completed before he passed away yeah but how does it when you look back on it now given what's happened and the tragedy around that does it change how you feel about your time spent about the project itself no i mean it's it's this this is a hard year for a variety of reasons and obviously for everyone the past year and a half has been crazy but his passing was his passing was like was really a hard thing and um what i think about the film being sort of a time capsule near the end of his

life um it makes it i don't think it makes it more special but it's a different sort of perspective and i i would like to think that his death because it was an accident and he had been according to everybody like like doing fine. It's like, yo, she can be like kind of fine, but like, it's like I said,

on the drop of a dime, like things can change. I just think it makes you look, I mean, because now we know the end, right? So, you know,

and again, the film is, is, it's just a a piece of time but it's a piece of time that i think we captured like all like little bits of all of him yeah um if that answers the question there's an amazing dissonance that not many people will be able to experience but i did having seen it before he passed so when you get to the end of the film the ending is wonderful it's just amazing kind of final moments with him and then watching it again knowing where we are now it it does add a different layer of understanding to it but like what are the what are you what were the most fun

parts of doing this oh the fun part yeah parts? Yeah. It was mad fun. It was like a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. It was like crazy fun. I mean, being on the road was insane. Like,

just going around to, I probably went to more subways during that period of time than like anyone had, like most people have in their entire lives. Like that dude loves Subway. First place, we went first place out of jail, the nearest Subway. One time we were in a Subway, it was right after he got out of jail.

And we're like drinking Hennessy in the back. And he has a grip, we have this grip of Hennessy. And he's about to go into Subway. I was like, dude, like just don't bring that in there and this is weird this is the kind of guy he is because I had met him like five six hours earlier

he's like why not and I was like because you just got out of jail and like we don't know like we're in West Virginia like we don't know what these white people are going to do

and he's like oh yeah you're right and so I go into the thing he's like I'm going to just get he's like I'm going to just get cups so I go into the thing and he follows me in there I just get, he's like, I'm gonna just get cups. So I go into the thing. He follows me in there. I turn around and he's got the grip,

but he also has gotten the cups. So to pour it inside the store. Yeah. Um, no, we just, he's, he's so funny.

And it was like him and his like crew were like, it was just like crazy to be on the road with those guys. Because they were like his real, real friends. Yeah. Well, tell me about that. Because one of the, I think, one of the best choices in the film is not to overload with context and not do two hours of talking head interview with Swizz Beatz, for example. You could kind of go back into time and do that. And you could spend a lot of time trying to explain things but for the most part you let his life unfold in

front of us right right i assume that was something that you wanted originally because you know i wanted it goes back to sort of the idea behind the movie in the first place it's like i don't want i didn't want the narrative to be controlled or to be told rather by anyone else than him or the events that sort of unfolded in whatever situation that we were in so for to that perspective like or to that point rather there's no sit-down interviews like I didn't want to do that at all. And we kind of like schemed our way into not having to do it. It is, it's like, it's not,

and it's not shitting on any talking head interviews cause I do them all the time, but it's interesting. Like it was, it was because it was him. I didn't, I don't, I don't care what Swissbeats has to say about him necessarily,

because it was just meant to be this is his period of time. This is what's going on right now. And I'm glad that we were, I think, successful at doing that. So this is kind of a big concept, but how do you think he'll be remembered? There's obviously how you'll remember him, but more broadly, it's a huge life, a huge career. I remember recently,

I, I was watching some interview with Nas and he came up and Nas was like, he's like, DMX, you know, he's like, DMX has got like more love than, than any rapper, like more like real love. Um, and I, he's like ever. Like it was just love because he was, people saw themselves in him and he saw them.

He saw those people as well. Like he actually saw, I don't think a lot of people, and it's not shitting on him, but like have that sort of relationship with Drake, you know what I mean? Like, so it's a different kind of, uh, Drake, you know what I mean? Like, so it's a different kind of,

uh, legacy, you know, um, I think a more personal one, I think because, and I think for a lot of people, a spiritual one. Um, so I don't think, and I also, you know, that thing when like people pass away and then they, they get lionized for all the good shit and all the bad shit goes away. Um, the bad shit he did wasn't even that bad. Like, I think it's just going to grow and grow and grow. Like, I mean, I did, I did a movie about Elvis. I had to do some bad shit. But I think, you know, when he passed away, like the big celebration they had up here, that says a lot.

I mean, people will forever remember Earl. Like, I think in death he will be just known slightly different than like the hits I think it's just like maybe people will take a second look at some of like his records album tracks always album tracks but

I don't know of course we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen oh shit what have you seen that's have seen oh shit what have you seen that's good dude i'm gonna have to go with like a like i mean like i mean squid squid game was the last good thing i knew you're gonna say that i knew as soon as you started halting were you just afraid to just repeat something that somebody else said I'm sure like a million people have said it but why did you like it?

I don't know it was really well made I thought it had like a lot of depth to it I feel like ashamed to like something that's really good because it's popular Jesus no it was good it was well made

I'm really happy for whoever fellow that made that cause that's for that Korean show to like blow up I mean maybe that's

one of the things of the results of the pandemic for like filmmakers it's like people will watch

shit with subtitles you know that's pretty huge for an American audience to cling to a show like that yeah it's very high so unusual yeah and maybe you're right maybe maybe a door got kicked down I'm gonna I'm gonna start learning Korean imagine like the black Korean squid game

set in Baltimore sounds like something you could do Chris thanks for doing the show congrats no problem thanks man do. Chris, thanks for doing the show. Congrats. No problem. Thanks, man. Thank you to Chris Frierson. Thank you to Chris Ryan. Thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins and our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Later this week on The Big Picture, it is finally time for Amanda and I to talk about licorice pizza. Paul Thomas Anderson's licorice pizza. We'll see you on Friday. Happy Thanksgiving.