The Big Picture - How the Coronavirus Is Affecting the Movie Industry. Plus: 'Onward' and the Future of Pixar. | The Big Picture

Episode Date: March 10, 2020

The spread of COVID-19 has struck virtually every part of communal life, including the movie theater. With more people staying home to watch movies, Sean and Amanda look at some of the short- and long-term ramifications that anxiety from the coronavirus has provoked (0:41). Then, The Ringer's noted dad Jason Gallagher stops by to discuss the latest Pixar film, 'Onward'; whether the company's movies are aimed at kids or adults; and where the studio is headed after 22 feature films (20:41). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Jason Gallagher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? This is Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Recently on the Winging It podcast, Vince Carter and Annie Finberg sat down with NBA All-Star Kyle Lowry and recording artist Rotimi. This week, 2017 first overall pick Markel Fultz joins the show to talk about living up to expectations and working his way back from injury in the NBA. Make sure to check out Winging It on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Onward, among other things. Pixar's 22nd feature is the weekend's box office champion.

It's directed by monsters university director dan scanlon and starring the voices of chris pratt and tom holland onward is a typically crowd-pleasing pixar story that transports mythological creatures like spell casting elves sprites and fire-breathing dragons into a contemporary suburban setting we'll have a ringer staffer and father on the show later to talk about the episode but before we do that amanda the world of movies is in a complicated place because I think a lot of people are not going to the movie theater because coronavirus, of course, is dominating our mental space as well as our physical space in the world right now. Those of you listening to the rewatchables know

that we talked about the movie Contagion, Steven Soderbergh's film from 2011, because obviously all of these things are top of mind. So many things are happening in the movie world due to coronavirus. Obviously, we're watching movies get pushed back and we're watching people get pushed back into their homes. What do you think about the way that the movie world has responded to this international crisis? Well, let's just start right here. Neither you nor I are public health officials or economists or, you know, making and we're not going to we're not making decisions. We're not. Pat, we can't give you advice. You know, wash your hands and listen to people who know what they're talking about. So what I think about it is it's just been really surprising while also seeming somewhat inevitable. You know, I don't know. We've never, I have never lived through

something quite like this. And it makes a lot of sense that things like South by Southwest are no longer happening, even though that is a real loss for Austin and for all of the filmmakers who are going to be premiering movies there and for everyone who is going to be working during the festival and making a lot of their money. So the interesting thing is that it's not clear where it ends right now. The James Bond film No Time to Die was pushed back from April to November. That's obviously one of the most internationally known franchises. And those films rely on massive international audiences, particularly in places like China, which obviously has been dealing with coronavirus at a ground level for a lot longer than every other country. It's a confusing situation. I think there are a handful of experiences in life that demand human interaction, and going to the movies is one of them. It is, or at least it was. And that's something I think for us to talk about here, obviously, the communal nature.

And I say this as a person who went to the movies this weekend, and I don't think what we're not trying to do is panic people. And as you said, we are neither WHO officials, nor are we scientists, nor are we economists. But this is the field that we cover here on this show. And there is something very serious happening. And it feels like a lot of people are just going to stay in their homes and not go to the movie theater. And there are a few things to look at in that respect. I think there's just the kind of commercial and critical ramifications of that sort of thing. There is, what does this mean long term for movie going? Given that we've, as we've said for the past two years represents such a huge, such a huge portion of the American movie industry's piece of the pie. That China, you know, movies like Fast and Furious 9 are so important around the world, not just in this country and to the future of these movie studios, which are making these movies that we're talking about every week on the show. So, you know, the fact that the Chinese box office has essentially been shuttered

for weeks now and no one is going to those films and also that those films, you know, those movie tickets are subsidized by the Chinese government, which can obviously has quarantined so many of its citizens. There's going to be a huge outcome on that,

not just in terms of the box office, but in terms of the long-term health, not just of the people of these countries, but obviously these industries were witnessing an extraordinary free fall in the stock market this morning, the likes of which we haven't seen since 2008. And companies like Disney, in massive free fall. We're going to be talking about a Disney film here later on the show. And that is a company that essentially thrives on its communal experiences. It's not just its movies and movie theaters. It's

its parks. Yes. And it's shopping and its restaurants. And it's this, it is truly a global company. And if we seem at a little bit of a loss, it's because this is the ultimate, we don't know what the fuck is going on moment. Yes. We have spent the last couple of years talking about the diminishing returns of the theater going experience and in part just because it is a lot easier to watch movies at home. And I in particular have talked a lot about how it just at some point technology takes over and it's just people's viewing habits and the ease of use are already trending that way. But no one could have predicted this interruption in the market. And it really does seem to be channeling people towards a different way of watching. And you start to wonder as these things don't have answers and

they go on for longer periods of time, does it pretend like a fundamental shift or a long-term shift in how people relate to going to the movies? I think it could. I think we probably need at least a few weeks more of sort of evidence to get a better look at how the virus is going to spread and how people will respond to that. Obviously, the United States, the growth patterns are closely reflecting those of other countries that have had a significant number of cases. Even the ringer here, we were all planning to go to South by Southwest. We are not going to South by Southwest. Obviously, even before the festival was canceled, we decided not to do so. And the other thing that happened here is that, whether it's ironically or coincidentally,

I'm not totally sure how to characterize it. Every major corporate media organization has essentially launched a streaming service that allows people to consume the things that they are making or that they have made in the past from the comfort of their homes. For years, we've been engaging with Netflix and Amazon Prime, but Disney+, and what Disney means to people is largely in their homes now and not just in a movie theater. And for years, Disney held back the archival

releases of its classic films in an effort to goose home video sales. That's over. If you want to watch Lady and the Tramp, the original or Lady and the Tramp, the remake, you can do so at home with your children today. You don't have to go to a movie theater. If you really, really want to see Onward, and frankly, not as many people saw Onward as I've seen most Pixar movies, then you'll have to wait. But for the most part, and with a slate of shows from Marvel and the second season of The Mandalorian, perhaps part of that shift too is kind of just blotting out what it even means to be a movie. You know, that's the other thing that we've been discussing on this show a lot is it's all just going to sort of seem like content on

your couch. Yes. Is this the time to talk about the Netflix top 10 this weekend? I think it is. Explain it to us. Yes. So Netflix recently debuted a feature in which it annotates the top 10 things. Like, because they're not all movies and TV shows and, you know, whatever content Netflix dreams up. I guess top 10 content vessels on Netflix at any given time, because I live in the U.S. and my account is based in the U.S., it's I get what because I live in the U.S. and my account is based in the U.S. I get what's top 10 in the U.S. and I do think it's probably different from country to country and I don't have access to that. So, you know, Netflix has famously not shared any sort of viewing data or selectively shared it. They like to tell you about, you know, the 80 million people that watched two minutes of Bird Box or something.

And, you know, with this top 10 data, as with all information given to you voluntarily by large corporations, you know, don't always it's not the full picture, probably. But I went through it. This was this was Monday morning. So, you know, maybe people are watching slightly different things on Monday morning than they are on Sunday but I think it's pretty reflective so number one in the U.S. was Spencer Confidential it was the Mark Wahlberg film that we I guess we didn't really talk about it as much as Mark Wahlberg can we talk about it very quickly um I gotta say it's really not good and you know as you may have heard I think in an odd

way we're fans of Mark Wahlberg even though we have some complicated feelings and I'm a fan of a lot of the movies that Peter Berg and Mark Wahlberg have made together this movie doesn't know what it wants to be and it feels like what happens when you've got three scripts going

at the same time and you know we don't need to belabor the point about it not being a great film and it feels like what happens when you've got three scripts going at the same time. Yes. And, you know, we don't need to belabor the point about it not being a great film, but the fact that it is the number one streamed movie in the country right now, also, you know, I don't want to say that it worries me, because that's a frivolous concern in light of the events that we're talking about. But the quality aspect of the Netflix movie is something we've talked about for years now. And if these are the sort of signal entries, the things that are being promoted most aggressively, and they become the center of culture, and we'll talk

about that probably with a few other titles on this list, that's just generally sort of a bummer as a culture consumer. Yes, I agree. And I think part of the reason that we're studying this is because people are watching movies at home a lot already. And that was very true before the coronavirus. And what types of movies people watch at home are different. And I agree with you. I didn't think that Spencer Confidential totally worked. I also did watch it on my computer while doing something else.

And it does want to be three different movies. It's tonally both like very serious and earnest. And then they're also doing comedy. And part of that very bizarre tonal shift actually did work because I had to go back to my computer, like to my tab every three minutes and be like, wait, what are they doing now?

Now they're making a joke. Oh, but now it's really violent. But now it's, you know, and it's something that is composed to keep my attention in a way that doesn't make for like great cinema at all. Is there any way that's like an algorithmic move? I kind of think it is.

No, I don't. I think that there is, this just got a little mashup, but I do think that they put Netflix movies together now with the intent of keeping your attention and whether it's like just very fast cutting or you know the pace or the music being suddenly very loud of something I'm just being like wait I have to look back at my screen now I definitely think there's something to that especially the more commercial releases we talked about the Irishman that there was not a lot of fast cutting

and tonal shifts going on in that movie last year but I think I think you're right I think that there is something kind of when when when the algorithm affects the creativity and your your the notes process changes from the old school Hollywood we need to put a movie star in this movie and we need to position it as a love story or we need to position it as an action movie so that people understand it. I think this blending, this amalgam that you're talking about might actually be to try to serve as many masters as possible, which is just a wild proposition. What else is on the list? So number two is Love is Blind, which is a reality TV show. Have you watched Love is Blind? I have not watched one minute of this series.

So let me tell you, I tried watching it last night. I made it through 15 minutes of the first episode. Then I was like, I skipped to episode three and I made it through 15 minutes of that and I'll never go back. It's just, this is not the kind of programming that I'm interested in, but many people are. I'm not either.

You know, full disclosure, my wife watched every single minute of every single episode. Good luck, I guess, to everyone involved on all levels on that because you need it. Number three is The Trials of Gabriel Fernandez, which is a true crime doc. In the classical Netflix mold. Number four is the Angry Birds movie. Two.

Angry Birds 2. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Number five is Space Jam. So I think there are some children stuck at home watching some movies. A lot of parents firing up Netflix. So number six is Freaks. Haven't seen it.

Do you know what this is? I did some Googling. It is a 2000- It's an Emile Hirsch movie, right? Yeah, a 2018 movie, Canadian-American. It's about a seven-year-old who gets locked in an abandoned house by her disturbed father. And it made- What?

Yes. And it made $330,000 internationally at the box office and is now number six on Netflix. Is this the first example of the You effect? You know, the series You that premiered on Lifetime starring Penn Badgley, but moved to Netflix and was sort of rebranded as a Netflix series and then took off

and had extraordinary success. Is this the first time that a movie that really no one had heard of hit the service and people thought could be an original Netflix film? Possibly, but do you think people are like, oh, this is an original Netflix film and so I'll watch it? Or are they just like clicking through like, oh, this looks creepy. Okay. Yes, I think so to the latter. But also, I think that the original Netflix film is starting to mean something to people. I think it's starting to, I mean, look at the success of Spencer Confidential. You know, we should keep a close watch actually on this chart. Spencer Confidential is also, it's just like Mark Wahlberg action movie thumbnail that's getting served to you. And people are like, sure, click.

That's definitely true. But I think in this case, I mean, maybe this is a self-reflexive choice by a lot of crazed parents who are like, I'm locking myself in my own house. And so I need to see content about that. If you watch Freaks this weekend and have an explanation, let us know. Seven is Paradise PD, which seems like some, you know, animated show. Straight up never heard of this. Okay. I have no idea what this is.

Congrats to all the people who watch all of the Netflix animated shows. Number eight is just bizarre to me. It's Life As We Know It, which is a 2010 sort of rom-com, though I really hesitate to use that word in reference to this movie starring Katherine Heigl and Josh Duhamel. Who can say? This is not a good movie. Did this just join the service?

I don't think so. It doesn't say new next to Life As We Know It, which sometimes it does. But again, I'm just reading top 10 in the US today. You know how we spend all this time on the show talking about Parasite and Portrait of a Lady on Fire and The Souvenir and all these sophisticated art films. And sometimes we talk about, I don't know, Hobbes and Shaw or something like that.

We did spend an episode talking about Mark Wahlberg, so. We did, but we're making an effort to help people discover great films. But, you know, if this is to be believed. Most people don't want that. Most people want life as we know it. They want Katherine Heigl being angry with Josh Duhamel for domestic reasons. I think that is true. Though I will say, we'll just round this out very quickly.

So number nine is Altered Carbon, which is a Netflix sci-fi show. And number 10 is Kung Fu Panda 2. Once again, children also need Netflix. But if you compare the top 10 Netflix with the top 10, with the top movies on iTunes and on Amazon right now, which again are really like imperfect measurements because I'm just clicking on the iTunes chart and on the Amazon chart and that's what they give us, but also don't trust any numbers. We're hoping big tech is being truthful. Sure. Jesus. But the top, those movies are, they're similar lists and they are also different. So here it is on iTunes.

I just took the top 10. Jumanji, The Next Level, Knives Out, Frozen 2, Dark Waters, Ford vs. Ferrari, Code 8, Jojo Rabbit, Contagion, Parasite, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. And then Midway was on there and Midway is also on the Amazon list. So I just, I thought that was funny and wanted to put that on the list. I have not seen Midway. But these are movies that people are making a choice to buy. And they're seeking them out. And it is really different from, that's a different viewing experience than Netflix,

where you just open it and you're like, I guess I'll just click through whatever is being offered to me. So there's, when there is intention or the effort being made to actually find something, the list of movies is different. It is. I think that there is one particular thing about this that we should note, though, which is that the iTunes movie store, two things, really. One, people have a relationship to it where they just have their credit card in the machine and they don't necessarily think about it in that way where they're just like, I know that I spend $16 a month on Apple rentals or Amazon rentals. So I don't have the same relationship that I would if I had to pay cash. But also, you know, the Apple store in particular thrives on promoting new content. You know, like it is they market new movies in a way that Netflix literally doesn't because they have this windowing period for most stuff.

They promote their new content. But Apple is this sort of feeder system. It's a distribution system for all of the studios. And so inevitably, you get Jumanji The Next Level and Knives Out and Frozen 2 and Dark Waters because these are big studio movies that are being pushed out into their system. I mean, the reason that we did Contagion is it's been so weird to watch Contagion be in the top 10 for weeks. And we I mean, we're talking about six, seven weeks now that people have been consuming this movie. And that indicates consumer impulse. You know, it shows us what people want to see at a time like this, which I think is similar to the Netflix thing that we're talking about, which is keep my

kids quiet while we all stay at home and don't feel like we're going to be exposed to a virus. Or maybe just we've been served the big machine movie, the Spencer Confidential. The one thing, I think that if we have skepticism about some of this stuff, like I believe Love is Blind is an enormous hit because every single person I know has watched Love is Blind and wants to talk about it my sister is texting me have you seen love is blind like it is it has reached the outer reaches of of the people in my life I just I can't understand giving 10 hours your life to that but continue but has one person said one word to you besides me about Spencer Confidential no so I'm a little I'm a little dubious. Of course, be skeptical. Again, I think number one in this case could be someone being like, oh, Mark Wahlberg. And I clicked on this and then I watched the first seven minutes, which was like a super violent flashback of Mark Wahlberg beating up a corrupt police captain or something.

Yes, that's right. Yeah. And was like, okay, I'm good. No, thanks. I'll go back to Love is Blind. So, okay, I'm good. No, thanks. I'll go back to love is blind. So, and, and that counts as that counts as a view at Netflix world. So it does. I mean, it's, this is an interesting tool for us to have at our, our, our, uh, at our fingertips really, because I think we're going to draw a lot of conclusions and we may even

organize future segments of this show around the idea of looking at this top 10 list, even though I don't, it's also some casting doubt, I think, on the process of Netflix, which was meant to be this impenetrable terrarium that was organized algorithmically based on your interests. And that was sort of its genius to feed us the same way. I mean, think about it this way. You've been working in digital media for a while now, and you know the power of the most red tab on the side of the page and the way that that instigates a kind of user habits, you know, where it says, if everyone else is reading it, then I have to too. And Netflix probably smartly has realized that it too needs to evolve into that state of mind.

Now we know where digital media is going, so I worry about using that as well if I'm Netflix long-term to try to instigate a kind of user behavior. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. Speaking of user behavior, let's introduce Jason Gallagher now. And now we're joined by The Ringer's very own Jason Gallagher, one half of Ice to Ice. Yeah. And one of the signature fathers at the Ringer. That's so nice to hear. Jason, you've been on to talk about Disney films before.

You came on and defended Frozen 2. I did. Like a ghoul. Onward, I think, is slightly better than Frozen 2. Yeah. You are also a father of a son, and this is a movie that is truly about fathers of sons. What did you and your son think of Onward?

I think pretty similarly to Harvilla, I think we had two very different movie-going experiences. My son liked the movie. I think that ultimately he started to... I think it was a little dialogue heavy for him to be honest. Um, but he thought that, you know, the fairies were very funny. He thought that the, um, dragon was really cool. That was by far his favorite part. And for me, it was, uh, it was a much different experience as As a father, as a younger brother, for many different reasons,

I was having a really tough go in my seat over on the other side. So I thought that was really interesting for us to walk out and completely, just completely different experiences, probably more so than any other movie we have ever seen. Amanda, what was your experience with Onward? Well, I was one of two people in the theater. Our theater was packed. To be fair, I went on a Friday afternoon,

so it was like not really prime kid going time, but I was there without children. So was the other person, happily. I was not me and like a random child in the theater. But I was there alone, and I wasn't there for the Dungeons and Dragons parts of it. But the father-son stuff was very moving. I definitely cried and I definitely walked out being like, how does a six-year-old feel about this?

It seems very heavy for children. It does and it doesn't. Because I think, and I think think that Rob you mentioned Rob Harville I think Rob is sort of the I would argue he is the the poet laureate of Pixar at this point. I think if I would encourage people to go through his archives at the ringer and read his writing about Pixar movies and what it means to be a father taking his children to Pixar movies. He writes beautifully about it and in many ways it feels like a lot of these movies are more for dads and moms, which has become a cliche thing to say about Pixar.

But when the movie is not quite the cultural moment, the way that something like Coco is, when it's just a nice, solid family movie, it's more clear that it feels like it's serving parents than it's serving kids. You know, there's a lot to take away from a Toy Story movie for a six-year-old. But Onward, like you said, is very talky. Right. It's a kind of high concept.

It is. It's like, what if we would move these mythological fantasy creatures into a high school? And then also, if we could go back in time and cast spells. I could imagine being a little bit confused by this movie if I were a young boy or girl. Yeah. I think off the jump, it was introducing a concept that was very clear to adults that technology has sort of made us into, I don't know, I don't want to say lazier, but in some ways, lazier people. My son's not going to catch that at all. That it has like dispelled the magic of our lives.

You know, that my wife and I right now are trying an experiment where we keep our devices in another room for extended periods of time. Right. In an effort just to look at one another, just to make sure that we're staying connected in the universe. This is challenging stuff. This movie is basically about that feeling of like trying to get back to something that feels real in the world, even if it is magic. And that's hard to understand. I also, one of our artists, Alicia, whenever she does some drawings for some of the art on our site, people really lose it. And I was talking with Jason Concepcion last week,

and I was like, honestly, it's probably, like, it's obviously she's very, very talented, but in a lot of ways, it's a little more analog, and we're just kind of like, whoa. You know, whereas the drawing's been around for so long, but we're just Photoshopping everything. I just, I think that there's, this movie weirdly speaks to my point

about Alicia's drawings. I think that there's, this movie weirdly speaks to my point about Alicia's drawings. I think the other thing about the movie is it's, it's visually inventive, but also quite strange. You know, the premise of the movie, of course, is there's two brothers played by Chris Pratt and Tom Holland. They are elves and they lost their father at a very young age. In fact, one of the characters, Ian, played by Tom Holland, has never even met his father. And they attempt to cast the spell to bring their father back. They do cast the spell and they're only half successful and they bring back just the lower half of his body.

And so he is a pair of pants and purple socks and shoes for much of the film. He cannot speak, he cannot hear, he cannot interact really meaningfully other than to dance with his kids. You know, this is pretty weird. And I guess it's kind of whimsical and probably fun for a child to watch.

But also there's something, you know, we talked about the fly on the show with Adam Naiman a few weeks ago. There's kind of like a body horror aspect of the movie too that I feel like it just, this seems like a very unusually pitched Pixar movie to me. I don't know if in all of your experiences watching Pixar movies, if they all feel weird in their way. Yeah. I mean, with this one, I think, I think what you touched on how, about how Pixar is for parents in a lot of ways. I think Pixar, what they're trying to be to me

is a company for everyone. And as a content creator myself, sometimes when you're trying to please everyone, you wind up sort of making everyone feel like, huh, that was fine, you know, and not. And I think that my son and I walked away feeling equally as that was fine, you know, and not, and I think that my son and I walked away feeling equally as, that was good. You know, when we went to Disneyland,

the characters were lined up and he could have taken pictures of them and he was like, nah. And he moved on and he still took pictures with Woody and Buzz, you know, for the 15th millionth time. And I think that this movie's not, I personally think that this movie

was a fine family movie. I don't think it necessarily blew either of us away. Although I was a mess in my seat. Yeah. It's funny. I think you're right that it does have elements of it like trying to appeal to everyone. I mean, it's trying to be a kid's movie, which is to me, this felt very specific, very personal. I very like I've it takes a therapy patient to recognize

a therapy patient but like just I have been like working through some issues and now I'm like you know putting my very specific learnings and trying to forget you know teach my younger self something and and and speak to my family and I was like, I thought that the adult emotional parts of this were very moving. And also that I just didn't think that a six-year-old would be able to relate to it all. Even a six-year-old who has lost their parent, which I think, you know, it's not uncommon. And a lot of these movies, Sean,

as you notice in our outline, are about trying to teach kids about things like loss and feelings and their personal value. I thought that this was a very specific message to be teaching a small child. Yeah, and you're absolutely right that it is a personal movie. You know, writer-director Dan Scanlon was one years old and his brother was three years old when their father died. And when they were teenagers, a relative gave them a brief audio recording of their father, which Scanlon says helped inspire the story of Onward.

I mean, that's something that literally happens in the movie. Yeah, that scene is brutal. Very, very tough. And, you know, I think that that's actually quite beautiful. And it's odd that it is surrounded by the artifice of the Disney Pixar machine. You know, Scanlon made a Monsters University movie, and he's a longtime Pixar artist and storyboarder and writer. And it's kind of amazing that he was able to get this very, very, very personal story in the world. Now, a lot of the Pixar stories are personal in their way. If you talk to the filmmakers, if you talk

to Andrew Stanton about his movies, if you talk to Brad Bird about his movies, he'll talk about, you know, the power of family or the relationship between a mother and a daughter or all the things that we see in these movies.

Inside Out, what could be a more personal movie than Inside Out? But this has a level of specificity in the story that ultimately, at the risk of being too harsh, I think might actually be

a little bit alienating to audiences. And I think it's kind of distancing some people if they're not fathers. I'm not a father. And I was watching the movie thinking about fathers, but I don't actually have that same intellectual or emotional relationship to having a son. Right. I think you're dead on. On the flip side of that, if it does speak to you, boy, does it speak to you in those moments, you know, especially when the tearjerker kind of

twist moment, which is just so funny to think about with Pixar, which is like, how is it going to hit me? You know, they'd already hit me with the recording. And then it was later on when he's going through the list and realizing that his brother, that, am I supposed to spoil, by the way? Yeah, but I wanted to ask about that. Because that whole scene where he's going through the list, and let me be very clear, tears rolling down my cheeks. But I was also thinking, okay, you have to be able to read to get this? And I was wondering whether a five-year-old. That's a great point.

That is a really good point. And it's not just like, can you read the words dog and cat? They're pretty nuanced reading sentences. And I'm wondering whether a younger child is really going to be able to connect to that. Yeah. I mean, for those of you listening who don't know what we're talking about, the character of Ian makes a list of things that he wants to do with his father when he brings his father back. Yeah. Among those, what are the things that are on the list?

Play catch. Have a heart to heart. Yeah. And those, what are the things that are on the list? Play catch. Have a heart-to-heart. Right. And I think the last one is Tell him my life story. Share my life with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is just

fucking devastating. It's just brutal. And you're right, Amanda, that it's strange to ask a child to understand that intellectually and also to be able

to read it. It's not that it's strange. I mean, I do think that the beauty of Pixar movies, which I know that I have maligned on many of these podcasts, but that they are explaining really complex emotional things to children and also to adults who are still emotional children, which is most of us. And the thing is that this is not translating it on a five-year-old level, ultimately. It's maybe like a 13-year-old level. I thought it was interesting that the

protagonist was 16 and not seven. I had the same sensation, too. I don't know if the Simpsons short that appeared right before it. Yes, I wanted to talk about that. There were so many jokes that were visual that you had to be able to read, even the signs in the park that Maggie wanted to go to. I was just thinking, like, my son's not going to get any of this, like at all, actually. Well, so to me, that's in keeping

with a long tradition of The Simpsons, which is that as a young kid, it can distract you, but you can miss the jokes. You know, like The Simpsons is sort of larded on three or four levels with, with gags, with psych gags, with, with idea gags. Pixar movies are, are for kids. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You know, there is a difference between the Simpsons and a Pixar movie. So, and, and, and the things that are there, there are characters reading books in the Simpsons short at the beginning of the short.

And the books are a joke. And you have to read the titles of the books to get the jokes. In Onward, the list is a critical part of the story. It's not a gag. It's something that helps us understand what's inside this kid's heart and what he wants from this relationship with this pair of pants. So it's an unusual choice. I just thought it was so strange to put that at the beginning of this film. My son did not.

I mean, he thought it was kind of funny, but I don't think he was super into that Simpson short. Well, even there, it was to remind the parents that The Simpsons is now on Disney Plus with everything else, right? I mean, it was just pure corporate synergy. Super craven corporate synergy. I just also thought it was funny that they were like, how can we make this appeal to kids?

Well, we'll make it about the baby Simpson, Maggie, right? That's definitely, that was definitely the thinking. That's definitely what they thought. I was just like, this is, but like kids don't care about Maggie, you know, preparing to go on a date with the other baby. They don't get it. I mean, maybe they do, but it was so clearly, you know, Simpsons is for grownups and they were just trying to figure out how they could make it

minimally appeal to the other people in the audience in order to maximize their profit. And it was a swerve away from something that Pixar has done over the years, which is to add a Pixar short in front of their films. And some of the best stuff they've done is in those shorts that appear in front of their feature length films. So to put a Simpsons short, which is not even really a thing, there's never been a Simpsons short. That's not a mode of delivery for the Simpsons. I liked it, but yeah. I did too. I didn't dislike it. It was just sort of disorienting. And it made me feel, it made my movie going experience feel right. And here's how I saw the movie. I went to the

Alamo Drafthouse in downtown Los Angeles, and I had a giant cocktail and I had a giant box, like a, like a carton box. You get from a Chinese restaurant of Sour Patch Kids. And the only people in the movie theater were people that were my age. There were no children in the theater and people were getting drunk watching The Simpsons and then Onward. And that is the other thing about Pixar, is that we're talking about how this is confusing for children and it's for children, but like, it's not even for parents. It's for me. It's for fucking weirdos like me who on a Saturday are like, what I need to do is get a cocktail and watch a Pixar movie.

But I actually think that's true. I don't think that this was made for six-year-olds. I was thinking, everyone will be shocked to learn that I actually re-watched Toy Story last night. But, okay, number one, Toy Story came out in 1995. Yes. Toy Story came out 25 years ago. Yes. So, Toy Story came out when we were all children-ish or teenagers.

So, Pixar audiences have grown up or 25 years old now at the very minimum. So there is a way of relating to the movies in a way that we've been trained to like process our emotions by Pixar that is now as applicable to like grown adults as it is to children. And you're exactly right. We somehow haven't outgrown that. The other thing that I was thinking about as I was just like weeping in a theater on a Friday afternoon was that Pixar movies have sort of replaced like the classic tearjerker studio movie, like Field of Dreams or like Terms of Endearment or all those movies where you know you're going to get super manipulated and it may not even be like the most nuanced of emotional stories, but it's going to

hit you at some point and then you're just going to be crying in a movie theater and we all look for that collective release. And it's really interesting that it's now Pixar movies that are doing that and also that the Pixar movies still have the additional burden of having to be for children as well. Let me ask you a question related to that, Jason. Sure. How does your son feel when he sees you blubbering in a movie theater? I hide it very well. Really? Yeah, I do.

I mean, I did have a conversation with him yesterday just asking, did he think the movie was sad? And he said yes. But he didn't really want to talk about it. He thought the dad element or whatever, but the brother thing just completely over his head. It's great to know that emotional repression between father and son continues even in 2020. Well, I did that naturally in any—if Kelly is next to me in Marriage Story, I was literally, you know, doing one of these.

Like, so I—he just—I didn't show it. I mean, I know that's like kind of a cop-out answer, but it's true. Can I just say there was very briefly a time where, you know, I asked Jason when he was going to see Onward because I was like, maybe I would try to go see Onward with Jason and his son so I wouldn't have to be like the weird adult alone in the movie theater on a Friday afternoon. And we decided against it. But I was so glad I hadn't done that because I couldn't imagine being like the weird old lady with your son who's never met at a movie and then just weeping. It's like this is I'm so, so glad that I'm not here to scare this child.

I don't think there's any shame in it. Even in the adults only party time screening of Onward that I went to, virtually every person I saw walking out of the theater was red faced and just so upset. And you mentioned, Jason, something that I think is smart, which is that we even go into these movies expecting the faint, expecting the how will they get me. And even though you have a consciousness about that, even in the really bad ones,

even in the good Dinosaur, which is probably the least successful Pixar movie ever made, I still remember being like, God, this is just fucking devastating. This dinosaur is really on the ropes here. What is he going to do? He was. He was on the ropes. It's weird how Pixar is able to persist in that way. And I think you're right, Amanda, that it has replaced a certain kind of emotionally manipulative drama, but also

it has an abstract and distancing effect, I think, because this is a movie that climaxes with a concrete dragon chasing a pair of pants and his elf son. Like, this is a pretty weird premise. It's not Terms of Endearment, you know? It's not, my daughter is sick and I can't do anything to help her, which is pretty easy to understand. And I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but I feel like that might have some long-term emotional effects on people. You know, the fact that this is the closest that we can get to feeling. I do think it's notable that we can only explore these emotional stakes now in the terms of childhood and child context and, you know, fantasy and make-believe and all of that. There are a lot of protective layers before we allow ourselves to just cry in a movie theater.

One other sequence that I thought we should talk about before we go forward on this conversation is we mentioned the audio recording and we mentioned the end of the movie, which is obviously very emotional. But there's also always a kind of like a chills slash exciting moment in the Pixar movie. And they do feel very designed. And there's the invisible bridge sequence of this movie. Similarly, if you would have put down on paper what the premise of the sequence is, which is that Ian needs to cast a spell to build an invisible bridge that he has to walk across to lower a real drawbridge to let his brother drive over it.

I would have said, well, he's going to cast the spell and he's going to believe. And it's easy to see how this movie is going to work out because it's going to show him in his heart that he has the power and that he can believe and that he really will get to see his father again. But when I was watching the movie, I was like, oh my God, he's not going to make it. It was very stressful. He's not going to make it. It was very stressful. He's not going to make it. This is crazy.

I think I was sitting forward just like, oh my God, oh my God. Which is like, that is why I go to the movies is to get tricked, is to get to have my brain closed off and to have a movie work on me in that way. That was a moment where both my son and I had the exact same,

like his face had like a cringy, like, oh my, when the rope came off, it was like, and I get very, I get very clammy hands in scenes like that. It's, that was very effective. Yeah. And I'm fascinated by the idea of what the company is for the next 10, 20 years, not just because of the concerns about Disney and what's happening at Disney. But, Amanda, as you said, I was 12 when Toy Story came out. I'm 37 today. A lot of people who are 37 have children, so they're showing their children Pixar movies the same way that our parents showed us Disney movies because they had Disney movies when they were growing up. But I don't know that that necessarily is meant, it can last forever. I wonder, does your son, do you sense him now moving out of the Pixar phase and maybe into like a Star Wars phase or a Marvel phase? Yeah, he entered those phases very early on in life. Is that because of his father? It's because of his father. You know, one of the more interesting things,

we're kind of, my son and I are kind of in our own Oscar season. Since Spies in Disguise, we've seen, we've gone to the theater. We will be going to the theater more times in the next sort of two months than we have in his entire life. Spies in Disguise, Sonic, this movie, Mulan, Peter Rabbit 2, Trolls, which looks god awful. I don't know if you saw that trailer. I'm fired up. I decided to go all in on Trolls World Tour.

I just know, guys. It is really good. I'm very excited. 6 a.m. I encourage everybody in the world to look at the cast of Trolls World Tour. It is the craziest thing I've ever seen in the history of movies. No, guys. I'm very excited. 6 a.m. I encourage everybody in the world to look at the cast of Trolls World Tour. It is the craziest thing I've ever seen in the history of movies. No, thanks. So my point being is that it's still so fascinating that Onward will likely be the best of all of these films.

And that Pixar sort of still has that standing, at least for me. And then my son, he has a million stuffed animals. He sleeps with one every night, and it's WALL-E. These movies still have an effect on him that are different than other movies, and I can't really explain it. I don't know if he knows that I think it's so good or something like that, but Up, WALL-E, Coco,

these movies, like, he loves. Even if he doesn't really truly understand it. WALL-E, he doesn't totally get, obviously. I was going to say, I don't totally get WALL-E. But he absolutely loves that character. And if you ever came to our house, he's got this kind of dirty now WALL-E that he sleeps with every single night.

And I think it's still really affecting. And the Toy Story movies, obviously, it's probably, outside of Star Wars, it's like his favorite thing in the world still. He loves Marvel, obviously, but that's just a kid growing up. I don't know. I feel like, you know, Pixar still is going to, I can't see it going. I just can't see it going anywhere. I don't know.

Not that it's going anywhere, but do you know what I mean? Within a child's life, I can't see it going anywhere. I don't know. Not that it's going anywhere, but do you know what I mean? Within a child's life, I can't see it. It might not. It's just that it may start to feel iterative. And here's a great example of that. The idea behind WALL-E, which is that we become so reliant on technology and comfort that we abandon the things that make life special. I mean, that really is the ultimate message of WALL-E. And we leave these trash robots behind to clean up after us and then move to other planets. Like it's the same idea as Onward. It's the same fundamental concept, which is that if you don't hold onto the magic, you're not going to be able to have a fulfilling and meaningful life. And it's easy to see that when you're a 37 year old asshole on a podcast who's like, I understand what these movies are about.

That's not cool. But in general, I think as time goes by, you may find that we may find that Pixar movies are repeating themselves. And in a way, because they have to. Because the childhood life cycle is not so dissimilar from generation to generation. And so telling the stories is going to seem somewhat samey over time. I don't know. I mean, Amanda, you're not a huge Pixar fan. What does a Pixar movie have to do now

for you to actually get authentically interested? It's not that I'm not a huge Pixar fan. It was interesting. I've seen most of them. You know, I'm not up on the Cars franchise. I'm very sorry to all of the parents. Cars sucks. Right, and I haven't seen all of the Toy Story sequels, but for the most part, you do,

as a person who follows movies, just see all of them and they're very good. I do sometimes get a little, I become aware of the kid stuff and it was interesting watching Toy Story because I was like, oh, this is a movie for children. And it's a little, I become aware of the kid stuff. And it was interesting watching Toy Story because I was like, oh, this is a movie for children. And it's a really, really clever and smart and moving movie for children. But I got kind of bored. I was like, okay, now they're doing another thing and they got to get back to the house before they move. And they're going to, and there will be some hijinks along the way. So I think it's interesting as Pixar has gone on that it has kind of grown up with its audience and grown up with its filmmakers to an extent. And it will be interesting to see how they it's almost divided like Onward was more for the grownups. And I guess that you could say

that like Cars 3 is more for children and that maybe there will be that division between kind of like, I don't even say major and minor, but adult Pixar movies and kid Pixar movies. That's what's so crazy about the trailer for Onward is that it looked like a DreamWorks movie. It looked like a movie, like everything about it looked like a kid's movie and it wound up being way more for adults, I felt like. It's a fascinating thing. Part of the reason that I'm, I guess, lightly concerned trolling about the future of Pixar is because four of the last five Pixar movies were sequels. And this is one of the first original movies that they've done in the last 10 years. And there seems to be not a whole lot of enthusiasm for it. It won the box office, but this is the second lowest performing Pixar movie of all time, which is notable. Part of that, I think, is due to COVID-19, but part of it is just due to, I think, a general enthusiasm for the movie. And, you know, Amanda, to your point, I think you're right that the filmmakers are growing up inside of the system, too.

There's another Pixar movie coming out in a few months, which is also unusual for one to be coming so hot on the heels of something like this. It's called Soul. And it comes from Pete Docter, who is really like, has emerged as kind of the true like auteur and creative leader of the company. He's not just the chief creative officer and filling in for John Lasseter, but he made Monsters, Inc and inside out which is those are like those are three of the very best

movies that the company has made three of the very best like most emotionally destructive movies about friendship aging relationships and who you are as a person. I mean, his movies are deep and his new movie is about literally the human soul. That's the idea of the movie, which is very heady. It's just like emotional endgame. It is. It feels like he has reached this summation point. And I love that idea of like the kids Pixar movie and the adults Pixar movie. Soul is like God's Pixar movie, you know? I mean, it really is at the height. It's also notably really the first kind of African-American story that they've ever told. And I noticed this as I was reading about it, that the score will be composed by Trent

Reznor and Atticus Ross. Let's go. Good for them. Which I thought that was a bit for a second. I mean, like how dark can this movie get? Yeah, yeah, yeah. a bit for a second? I mean, like how dark can this movie get? It really is a brand at this point. Last night I finished watching Toy Story and my husband was being very solicitous and knew I was doing this podcast. He was like, is there another one that you want to watch, you know, just to

prepare? And I was kind of like, I don't think so. And he just goes, you don't feel like crying anymore tonight. And I was like, that's true. I really don't. It's Sunday night and I don't think so. And he just goes, you don't feel like crying anymore tonight. And I was like, that's true. I really don't. It's Sunday night. And I don't feel like just strapping on the deep emotional experience. I can't do it. The fact that you can know that it's like Pixar presents soul and that in itself, you're just like, fuck me up. Let's go. You know, like that.

I don't need to see anything but that. I think that that's the other thing is like, if you are emotionally evasive in your day-to-day life, not saying I am, um, this is a, this is a Harbor. This is a way station for you. This is a way to kind of confront some of your feelings in a very easy and theoretically enjoyable way. That is true, but it does have the monopoly on it at that point. And so while they are definitely effective, I do worry to the extent that we don't have emotions anywhere else in movies. Do you think that that's because there's a consciousness about Pixar movies or just because the movie industry has moved into a different direction? I think it's both. I think we both expect Pixar movies to make us cry and they know this at this point and they

are definitely all working through their emotions in real time in these movies, which is great. That's what makes great. That's what great movies. I don't mean to diminish that in any way. And then the rest of movies have just abandoned emotion. Jason, as we kind of wrap this up, I'm wondering if your son knows what a Pixar movie is. Does he know the difference between Trolls World Tour and Onward? Well, that's the thing that I was trying to get at earlier is that on its surface, it definitely seems so. If you walked into his room, you would think he does. It's specifically with just, i said the toy story franchise incredibles he loves up he loves inside out and he loves wally and those are like five and coco

and so those are like his some of his favorite movies of all time and i when i think about the other animation studios um trolls i won't let him watch like just the facts i'm sorry guys you can only listen to justin timberlake sing you know crappy karaoke songs for so long before you lose your mind but um but put that on a t-shirt but but he uh you know i it it feels like he does i mean he doesn't he obviously doesn't cry in any of these you You know, he cried during Up, which was an interesting moment for me, which made me cry during Up 5 at the beginning. He legitimately shed a tear and was like, this is sad. The first 10 minutes of Up is emotional.

That is a universal tearjerker. But I genuinely believe that he can tell the difference i i just do even the soul trailer i i had no idea how he was going to respond to it especially on the tail end of trolls world tour or whatever um but he he's very interested in soul like he talks about soul more than he talks about even the new Minions movie. Another movie that I can only handle so much of. We'll talk about Minions. Terrible for kids. Okay, so do you think

we will talk about Minions? I actually do want to do a full Minions episode. I wanted to tell you that. I'm really into the Minions. If I don't get on that podcast, let me just say this. Let me just say this. Raising a child, Minions teaching kids to talk and gibberish and push each other around.

Not my cup of tea, Minions. Quit doing this to my kid. My kid is like and then pushes other kids. No thank you. We're not watching Minions anymore. Have you been to see the big Minion in the valley? Yeah, we have. I really want to go.

It's not the Shroud of Turin, you know? It kind of is. There's just this giant minion looking over the valley. We may be in to see the sacred minion. Maybe you and I can go on a quest. I would really like to go on a quest. And we can go see the giant minion. We have until July.

Jason, Amanda, thank you for going on this quest onward. And hopefully we'll talk more about some animated movies on The Big Picture in the future. Appreciate you guys coming by. Please stick around to The Big Picture later this week. We're going to be talking about a movie that really could not be more different from Onward. It's called The Hunt. It's a movie that was canceled last year, theoretically, by President Donald Trump that has returned to movie theaters opening this Friday.

We'll be talking about it on this show. See you then. you