The Big Picture - How to Direct a Movie, With Sam Esmail

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

‘Mr. Robot’ creator and filmmaker Sam Esmail returns to the show for a wide-ranging conversation about the state of movies and how he made his forthcoming 2023 film, ‘Leave the World Behind,’ from conception to completion. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Sam Esmail Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

An Instagram post gets an unexpected boost. A TikTok catches in the algorithm. Sometimes that's all it takes to launch someone into internet fame. But then what? This Blew Up is a new podcast documentary that reveals how social media stardom is made. It's a different kind of fame that's not always as glamorous as it looks. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Alyssa Bereznack. You can listen to This Blew Up on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about movies and maybe TV and maybe some other stuff. Our old pal Sam Esmail is here.

Hi, Sam. Hi, guys. Hi. How are you doing? I'm doing well. How are you guys doing? Splendid. This is our third try at this podcast. Now that we're actually recording, I feel a real sense of relief. We should talk about. I was going to make jokes about, you know, I hope that no like personal disaster befalls anyone before Friday, but I was very nervous, actually. Because the first time. I in yeah i had it what happened i actually

don't know what happened so i just heard you split your head open and i was like oh god it was like scanners all over the house as you're here now in the spotify studio it's lovely to see you thanks for coming thank you and spotify has the rest of the office has that sort of like industrial feel you know with like exposed exposed beams or poles specifically. Very cool. Very cool, yeah. And so I was at the IT desk and we finally got my computer working after like a week of, you know, intranet nonsense.

And as I was thanking the guys, I just walked straight into the pole. Oh, God. And like bounced off the pole. Oh, Jesus, Amanda. And I... Did you see this? Yeah. I saw the after effects.

It was pretty grim. He was on concussion protocol watch, basically, until my husband came to pick me up. Were you, like, blacked out, like, knocked out? No, I didn't. I didn't knock out. You didn't lose consciousness. No, I didn't lose consciousness. And I was, like, fine.

You had quite a knot on your skull, though. Yeah. And because I hit my head, it was a very small cut. I didn't need stitches, but there was a lot of blood. So I was, like, all over the IT desk. Literally wearing a white button-down covered in blood. but there was a lot of blood so I was like bleeding all over the IT desk literally wearing a white button down

covered in blood it was like a horror movie sequence it really was were you freaking out? when she texted me we were in the office together

and she texted me would you say I split my head open something fairly dramatic I said I hit my head and I probably shouldn't do this podcast so I raced to find out

where she was it was scary 15 minutes before you showed up so you didn't actually see her. I didn't see it happen. No, just the lovely guys at the IT department who were really nice about it.

And then our friend Juliet was in town. And so in a moment of crisis, I called Juliet. So I just texted her under the table, like, I'm bleeding, please help. And she came and made sure everything was okay. My husband came and picked me up and drove my car home. And was fine the next day I podcasted about barbarian the next day the net very next day yeah so I really was okay I had a tremendous black eye which like it was a good thing that there were multiple witnesses even though it was like humiliating and then um

I had to go to baby swim class with like a very large black eye. So that was a tough beat. But otherwise, I'm totally fine. And the second time we tried to do this. I got COVID. Yeah. You just got COVID. I just got COVID. Was that your first?

That's the whole story. I went to New York. It was my first time getting COVID. Yeah, I went to New York, flew back. And you were fine. Actually, you did a pod while. Yeah. Yeah, because I heard.

Was I fine? I think I sounded like I was on my deathbed. No, you sounded, yeah, you definitely sounded like that. But you still gutted it out. That's the kind of player I am. That's the kind of participant I am. Well, we're finally here. How are you doing? Are you well?

I'm doing well. How has your 2021, 2022 been? It's been a while since you've been here. It's the kid. The kid changes everything. You both have kids now. Yes, we do. It's all the cliches are true. A hundred percent. It's been a while since you've been here. It's the kid. The kid. The kid changes everything. Doesn't he? You both have kids now. Yes, we do. It's all the cliches are true.

Yes. A hundred percent. It's amazing. It's transformative. It's magical. Blah, blah, blah. But I do just love hanging out.

I just love hanging out with her. I know. I haven't shown her anything. I know you're showing her some stuff. Yeah, it's kind of sore. But now that she's

more conscious because she's about my daughter's age she's going to be 16 months yeah mine's 17 months but are you still showing her

like are you still playing Barbarian in the background no no that was only when she was completely unaware right maybe once every two weeks we'll watch something

maybe but we're really trying to avoid too much screen time she has no interest I tried even throwing on Bluey she gets excited for about 10 seconds and then so has no interest. I tried even throwing on Bluey. She gets excited for about 10 seconds and then... So she'll watch a few minutes of Bluey.

The one thing we watched that she sat through entirely in full was It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown last week. She watched the whole thing. 23 minutes. Yeah, which I don't even know why.

She's literally nuzzled up to my wife. I love that. And I don't know why she connected with it, but she did. And we're getting... We're in the phase of that. And I don't know why she connected with it, but she did. And we're getting, we're in the phase of like expressing affection. I don't know if you guys are having that at all. But she's like, she wants a hug.

She wants to hug. Oh, that's cute. She wants to connect. She's learning how to give a kiss. Alice is a little tough with Amanda. She's a little resistant. You have to earn Alice's affection, which I really respect. Yeah.

Honestly. Oh, really? She is her father's daughter. So, yeah. And she also, Alice and my son spend time together. Are they cool? Or does she just want to... Yes, it's a beautiful friendship that is primarily defined by Knox, my son, invading Alice's personal

space, and then Alice wanting all of Knox's toys. Got it. That's pretty much it. That's healthy. But it. That's pretty much it. That's healthy. But it is really nice. I like that Alice, you know, just doesn't give out her esteem willy-nilly. I do too. I think that's great.

She has to earn it. So you're not showing anything to your daughter? Do you have a dossier going? Like, what's your plan? Well, so I'm just doing, are you playing music? Yes. So I'm doing full albums okay i just finished i just finished bitches brew yesterday got through that i'm trying to hit all the different genres like you know i started with sergeant peppers yeah we're ready to die which by the way whoa well because hip-hop is important to me i think it's important

to you too it's very important it's it. It's rough though. I was listening to it and I was like, I don't know if she should hear this part. I find it's easy to do like Tribe Called Quest. You know, there's a handful of artists. I love Tribe Called Quest

and Low End Theory is going to be on, is coming up. But Ready to Die is to me the best. One of my favorites. I know, I know. You think the best ever.

It's up there. It's up there. What's your number one that's a different podcast I don't know okay I you know

Illmatic in the conversation and to the Wu-Tang in the conversation that whole era is my era totally but Ready to Die is better anyway you're doing music but not really

so then I try but I don't want to do this piecemeal I don't like I tried 2001 because 2001 is very visual. That's one of your favorites. That's a critical one for you.

But she lasted 10 seconds. It's too early for that. I know. So, I got to wait. I got to wait. And I don't think she's interested in screens. I mean, she doesn't really care when we're on our phones or iPads. Oh, that's not true for me.

You're super into it. No, Knox grabs the phone this morning, actually. He, it was still like lit up it was active when he grabbed it and i saw him doing the little like oh finger thing with the sun and i was like i don't know if you're doing this i don't know if you're swiping or kind of inching on purpose or whether that's just an accident because he's learning about his fingers also she definitely does that but does she but does But does Knox want to watch stuff on the screen, on your phone? Not really. Or on the TV?

Well, not to bring up a sore subject for you guys, but he will watch about 30 seconds of the Phillies, which is a big deal in our home right now. Can you believe the World Series right now? It's fucking bullshit. I mean, first of all. When this goes up, it's going to be over. Yeah, it's going to be over. And I don't think it's going to be over. Yeah, it's going to be over and I don't think it's going to be positive. I don't care,

but both teams are terrible. Terrible. I mean, the Astros are cheaters. I mean, I don't even know why they're even in the league anymore. Yeah. And then the Phillies, whatever. We have our personal

gripes against them. Sure. You walked in and you were like, it's time for the Mets pod. That was what you said to me and Bobby. I know, I know. And we're not doing the Mets pod.

It's too painful. It's too painful. It's too soon. I really, when we first talked about coming here before you split your head open. We were riding high. There was promise. Thank God we didn't get anything on Mike. But you were too eager. Oh, how dare you? Come on. The Mets always do this. I know. They always collapse. I should have known better. You're right. You're right. But then you got me excited. Well, things felt very, very different in June.

In June, I was like, usually there's a swoon of some kind. And then for whatever reason, they won like 18 out of 22 games. And I was like, oh, they're actually really good. And DeGrom hadn't even pitched yet. I'm not going to go off on this. But I thought it was real and it wasn't real. I know. I've heard this speech from you and from Bobby about how the sport is ruined. Amanda, you don't care about baseball.

Well, I grew up in Atlanta. Not to just really put my hand right on that. I have Chris and Amanda in my life. Phillies in the World Series and Amanda in Atlanta. I have Sean and Bobby, Mets fans. And then I have Chris and my husband, who are Philly guys, and who honestly were a little rude to me, even though I don't bring the Braves fandom into the home.

That's a Philly fandom. Yeah, I know, but they were pretty self-conscious and mean. And I was like, I am the person who dresses our son in the Phillies onesie every morning. Like, chill out. Every morning? Wait, hold on a second. You just have to concede on that point?

I do. Yeah, that's one of the, and I'm okay with it. I was there for the 90s Braves, and that was really fun. That's awful. I know. And I understand what that means to you guys and how painful that is. Have you ever heard of a guy named John Rocker? That's a guy you want to be proud of?

No, I don't. That's why I said that. You want to be supportive of that? I haven't lived in Atlanta for 20 years now. Hate monger. Guys, I understand that. The pinnacle of Braves awfulness. Remember the New York Times New Yorker piece on him?

Do you remember that? I don't. That came out in the late 90s? Ugh. He's such a... He's garbage. He's garbage. They still do the tomahawk chop, which is just a completely offensive heinous...

The team is called the Braves. I understand that. I'm with you and you are no i'm not a fan you're done you're you've done you've divorced but what yes i've divorced but what i'm saying is is that certain people in my life still get there like you know you can make a different choice this is okay you don't have to be meaning to ask you this this is relevant to amanda abandoning her team is there any part of you that wants to give your daughter a new start, a fresh hope? She has no choice.

She's a Mets fan. She's a Jets fan, sadly. Yeah, we're in the same boat. We're in the same boat. That's my three. That's a bad three. And that's Emmy. It's easy in our house because she was a fan of all three.

You have no guilt about that. Why? You're in sunny Los Angeles. The Dodgers, a wonderful franchise. The Lakers, historic team. Do you go to Dodger Stadium?

The Rams, the reigning champs. It could be so easy for us. Don't you think it builds character that the Mets do this to us?

I don't have character. What are you talking about? I'm just upset. I'm just cranky. I don't agree with that. The only time I'm unhappy is when I'm watching sports. I'm not like a fan of fans of the Dodgers or the Yankees. No offense to those. Oh, interesting.

You know what I mean? There's almost too much confidence there. Okay, that's fair. That is not our personality. Yeah, I get that. Can I add something really quickly here? Even if it doesn't build character, your mileage might vary on whether it builds character it does build bonds

like that's how me and Sean became so close so quick very true Bobby and I have a we can text at midnight relationship because of baseball

absolutely I have those friends too heartbreak brings people together and I think builds character even though you don't want to were you just quoting

the AMC commercial I was just like you just did the Nicole Kim are you aware of this did I do that no I didn't I didn't watch that you don't want to were you just quoting the AMC commercial I was just like you just did the Nicole Kidman are you aware of this did I do that no I didn't I didn't watch that you didn't do

Heartbreak Feels Good in a place like this but you said Heartbreak Brings People Together is that what she says yeah I was in an AMC last night actually

I heard her say it see I haven't been doing the Going to the Movie Theater let's talk about that okay because I do have a theater though so you have your home theater I do you're an, though. So you have your home theater.

I do. You're an avid cinephile. I am. I think having a child sometimes changes people's relationship to going to the movies. Also, we're still in COVID. That's the only reason why I'm not going. That's not the child thing. But I will say that watching it at home, I'm kind of annoyed with people at the movie theaters right now.

Yeah. I went once. I went and saw, what did I see? Oh, I saw Armageddon Time, which I loved. Wonderful movie. But everyone's an asshole in the theater. Yeah. Phones are out, getting up.

I just actually prefer it now at home, which is sad because I grew up literally just being in the theater for four or five movies in a row on a Saturday or Sunday. So are the bulk of your in-home viewing experiences streaming movies or things that come to VOD? There's also this equipment called Kaleidoscape. I feel like I'm doing an ad for them. But it downloads the movie. Okay. Like a Blu-ray version of the movie. So there's no streaming.

It's like pure quality. It's 4K. It's basically the same quality as in the theater. So I do that most of the time when I want to watch a movie there. Especially like older movies. But yeah, I also do some streaming.

I don't know, man. Like I'm not... And also, you guys talked about this. Over the summer, there was like this weird drought of movies. That just didn't... Which is baffling to me. I really think they fucked up.

I talked to a handful of executives about this for real. I was like, you guys kind of blew it. You had incredible momentum with Maverick. And then you left people out to dry for six weeks. That was really weird. I mean, as much as I love Top Gun Maverick, I mean, it was number one at the box office on Memorial Day and Labor Day.

Yes. For a reason. Yes. Because there was no other movies out. It was kind of crazy. And then I remember, because I saw Nope, which I also really liked, and then I was like, all right, let's go.

I'll start doing that every weekend. And I just didn't even have any choices really after that. I heard a variety of explanations for it that some of it was about just what was available like what was finished like a couple things got pushed a couple of events type movies and then when those movies got pushed they were like shit we don't have anything to put in this spot but some of it was not being sure that the business would be back in the way that it was they didn't like just not counting on Maverick happening and you you know, like when you're working on a project,

it's like months of preparation, marketing, P&L, all that stuff. And if they don't land on the date, the October 12th date or the August 12th date, then they got to wait

until 2023. And so it seemed like a convergence of bad events. You're telling me, though, that when they saw Top Gun Maverick do what it did over Memorial Day,

they were not like, maybe we should pull some of these movies up. They could have easily done that. The truth is, as Amanda will happily tell you, most of those movies that were pushed back are not as good as Maverick either. That's the problem. They're not as fun.

They're not as worthy of the in-theater experience. So that's a factor as well. Are you guys going every weekend? Are you doing your thing? Well, the kid thing. I was going to ask, what time of day are you watching all these new movies and not well because I'm doing it at home yeah I put her put my daughter down then I go downstairs okay and then how many movies are you doing I usually can only do about one right and you can

stay awake sometimes okay yeah I have I have fallen asleep and then I'll pick it up the next yeah see this this is an issue for me as well. And it's a real like 1230 in the middle of the day in the movie theater. Like I start feeling things kind of the eyes drooping. So. Oh, you're falling asleep in the afternoon. No, I'm not actually falling asleep, but I feel tired. I become aware of my exhaustion.

So for me, so much of it is like, okay, what can I actually, what am I physically ready for? And I would say I go more during the week because that's when I have childcare, which is an amazing thing. Yes. And that's also because when I can stay awake. And you do it during the day. Yeah. I'm a big fan of like a 1250 screening. Yeah.

I guess I'm going to have to like a 1250 screening yeah I guess I'm gonna have to start getting used to that right I've just grown up same I love to go at night I mean

I went to two movies last night to catch up on some stuff that I missed actually because I had COVID I mean I used to be like a three movie

a night guy like in my early 30s I was like powering through movies every night wow now you know if I get through one and a half that's pretty good showing for me um but it's even more imperative

to go to like festivals and stuff where I'm just like you know for these four days I'm seeing 20 movies so that I can but this is like part of our huge part of our job so it's a little different it's not as much for pleasure at times can Can I tell you something? What I did over the summer when there was this drought of movies, I don't know if you've ever talked about this, but I went on the AFI list. And, you know, I had like 20 odd movies that for whatever reason slipped by me. And I just started. So I caught up. I finished. Did you guys finish?

Did you guys do the list? Yeah. I mean, yeah. And I was like 25. Yeah, I did that. So you did. Yeah. And then now I'm doing the BFI list, which is kind of different.

Did you ever do that? I've never done BFI. There's definitely, I've definitely got some holes there. But that gets you focused. Like that, I started doing like two or three a day. Because you feel like those are important works that demand your attention? No, because I didn't love every single one. In fact, some of them, I was like, why is this on this list?

Like really top 100 movies of all time. Do you want to throw something under the bus? I'm not going to do that. Okay. But I definitely felt like, I don't know,

I felt like this was important for me to at least know all of these movies. Yeah. I mean, our friend Amy Nicholson does this show called Unspooled where

the show started as like an examination of the original AFI 100 list, and they went through every single movie. And now they're kind of building their own new canon. I've always wanted to rebuild, reconstruct something like that and say, why is... I don't know, what's an example of how green is my valley or something like that? You know what I mean? Like a movie that is beloved, that was a huge Oscar winner, that many people cite. Beat Citizen Kane. Beat Citizen Kane.

Which is insane. But can you even separate those two things? What did it contribute contextually at the time? That's like a fun project. I don't necessarily always love revisiting them under those strictures though, where it's sort of like, well, this is on a list, so I have to watch it. I try to make things more thematic you mean you want like well because they also do the top horror 100 yeah and the top but is that what you mean or no that's not what you mean either

no more like this is this filmmaker's work or this is all from one year so i did that too so after well i didn't finish the bfi list because then I got, I finished my Cronenberg filmography because I never finished all his films, Carpenter and De Palma. Are you going alphabetically? Oh my gosh. Did you guys do this? You didn't do it. That's how I live my life. But did you finish all their filmographies, especially De Palma because he has a lot of old movies.

I've definitely seen all, I own every De Palma movie. We did a De Palma episode like two years ago and for that but there's a lot of weird stuff like his first studio movie what's it called How You Know Your Rabbit I can't even remember the name oh yeah yeah yeah

like the earlier stuff is a little bit harder to find but I've seen all of it really the great ones are the great ones you know there's not a lot of mystery like the ones that you know are the ones

there's a reason they're the ones you know Cronenberg is a little harder because some of that stuff is a little harder to find as well you know are the ones, there's a reason they're the ones you know. Cronenberg is a little harder because some of that stuff is a little harder to find as well. I've seen all those too. There's an interesting comedy called Fast Company. Did you see that?

I did. That's the car racing one. What a weird Cronenberg. It was on HBO Max for a while there. Oh, it was? Yeah. Oh, that's probably where,

actually that's probably where I watched it. You don't need to watch Fast Company. How many Cronenberg movies have you seen? Zero? One?

No. He's really not your guy. Wait, did you see Crimes of the Future? You didn't watch it.. Wait, did you see Crimes of the Future? You didn't watch that. No, I haven't seen Crimes of the Future yet. You're not going to watch that. You wouldn't like that one.

I've seen a couple. Right? Did you see Eastern Promises? Yeah, I've seen Eastern Promises. Let me ask. You know what? You and Julia, Julia Roberts, you know what you guys have in common? Tell me.

You both don't like horror films. And also, we're from Atlanta. And you're from Atlanta. Atlanta metro area. Julia doesn't like them because she says that they are really scary. Yeah. Well, I think. You don't say.

But can I? Go ahead. Well, I was going to ask and project some feelings onto my close personal friend, Julia. I'm, again, just uncomfortable talking about her like knowing that you know her it's just and have worked with her which i have a lot of questions i'm making any eye contact with anyone right now you are really avoiding me right now it's okay amanda well i don't actually like to feel uncomfortable and anxious really ever and I do enough in my natural life that I'm not seeking that experience at the movies that's not a form of like escapism for me or I'm actually looking for serotonin and the

qualities in a film that someone like say Julia Roberts romantic comedies provides yeah but this is this is what I told her and i'm gonna tell you this is that and i guess i don't know how you watch horror films but when i watch a horror film why i find it odd that people actually get scared i don't want i'm not getting and it's like i'm not getting scared it's not like when someone gets killed in a horror film i'm usually laughing same this on the exact same way and it's it's usually just like kind of an absurd, heightened reality where it's just like fun. It's a joy ride.

That's why when we talk about slasher films, we're like, that kill was good. Oh, this movie had great kills. It's not like, oh my God, we're terrified and we somehow get off on being terrified. Do you know what I mean? I do. And with the same with romantic comedies. Totally. but then i would just say that like my response to what makes

me go oh that's really fun or oh that made me laugh or oh this is a joy right right is just different i don't respond that way like i don't and i know that this is heresy um at some point when people are punching each other on screen, my brain just kind of turns off. Well, I'm with you on that. See, that just gets boring. Sure, but there's something about, I just don't go like, you know, the way that I think people respond

to certain like action sequences or kills in movies. I agree with you on that. That I'm on your side. But do I go, when someone in a perfect sweater on a beach is like you know doing witty repartee yes i do but what i'm saying is you can't watch a horror film and not be anxious like that that's where i'm like are you like and emmy's a little bit of the same way where i'm just like and and i sometimes envy it because i'm like wow

you lose yourself in the mood i've never not knowing I'm watching a horror movie. Do you know what I mean? I'm anxious and or irritated. That's the vibe that I have gotten from you in the past. It more bothers you. And I have a theory about this, which is that if you were introduced to this genre at an early enough age, you develop an affection and sometimes an obsession with it so that it allows you to have the kind of like,

I'm laughing at the screen relationship. And then also you admire like the ingenuity of the setup or the kill or you're thinking about it in a slightly different way. I mean, a handful of people

have come on the show in the past, you know, like Alex Ross Perry who was on with us a few weeks ago. He sees the genre in such a discreet way that it's like,

I doubt he's ever getting scared ever again. No. He just is thinking about it in a different way, just like you're describing, Sam. I feel like you just didn't get that gateway drug when you were 11 or something that was like, here's why we watch these movies. Yeah, I don't have the brain map. If you watched Barbarian, it's just fun. Well, that movie is actually funny too and that's part of it

it is actually funny but it also plays on these horror tropes that we always found fun even when other horror movies aren't playing on the comedy

do you know what I mean I do that's why I think that's like such a great that movie's closer to Scream though and she likes Scream

yeah I like Scream there's a trailer that Sean shared for a movie coming out in January. It's a Blumhouse movie, right, Megan? Megan, yeah. Are you aware of this one? I am, I am. And I thought that trailer was hysterical.

Once she started dancing, I laughed out loud. So I do get it. That could be your barbarian. That would be exciting. But violence. I just. You're not. Wait a minuteian. That would be exciting. Okay. But violence. I just. You're not. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Yeah. Go ahead. You're a Tarantino fan. I am a Tarantino fan. Although I will say, I kind of thought he was a little mean to you. He was not mean to me. He was a little mean to you.

He entered the arena. I'm not a Baby Boom fan. And he said, what about your loss? But I don't need to rub it in. Like, you know what I mean? There's a lot of movies he likes that I was like, dude, this is not really good. Once again, everyone has their own taste. Totally.

And that's okay. I don't know. I was possibly outnumbered, which is not a new feeling for yours truly. I want to talk about this. Yeah. Because the best version of this show, the big picture, if I may share my viewpoint, is the two of you.

When it gets too bro-y, I'm not as into it. This is a commonly held opinion. You're not on an island. I'll say, in the case of Quentin, I loved Quentin. I think Quentin was very much

testing his waters with Amanda the same way that, honestly, he tested his waters with me the first way that honestly he tested his waters with me the first time that I met him which is something that he does and then he sent me a note which I shared with Amanda afterwards it was like I really really liked Amanda she was great so you know it's like it's it's can you hang it's like no you you definitely hung in there and you picked your movies yeah they bring this bullshit to me every week and that was just like ascending the next level it wasn't your first rodeo with that yeah let's go and also i mean it's

quentin tarantino no of course he's a master he's amazing and very endearing i i thought it was very endearing so so to going back to my original question yeah his violence which is also a lot of fun. Yes. When you watch it, you're not. It's stylized and choreographed and, as you said, kind of knowing. And there is something about it. I see the intention, honestly. And you don't with horror films. I know it's so funny about that, too, that you say that because he's somebody who has been accused of not having intention in his violence for years. But you're right. There is intention. There is intention.

There is intention. You might not like the intention. But the thing with horror films is just when I actually watch one, it's not like I'm like crying, you know, and I'm like, oh, I'm so sad. And this was like a terrible thing. And you're right that the things about horror films that freak me out more are the, you know, images of like eight people standing outside a door and like, you know, which is not violence. The violence just unless it's really well done and just like honestly witty, which that's kind of what I think of when I think of the Tarantino scenes. My brain just turns off. I just don't respond to it. And then at some point, if that's all there is, I get annoyed because I don't like having my time

wasted. And it's not time wasted for other people, but I, you know, I'm just like, I got other things I want to be doing right now. Is Emmy into horror? No. Yeah. She's like Amanda. Yeah. It's just not how I want to spend my time, honestly. she literally would say the same thing and and the thing about it is I can't quite tell if it's because the movie actually is working too well meaning it's doing its job and scaring you like when people tell me oh my god that movie you know was so scary I'm like I don't know what you like yeah I I love the movie but I'm not scared like I didn't leave the theater scared and looking over my shoulder she does you know and I assume

that's a little bit of like sometimes yes sometimes like she will want to turn off like if it's a like I tried to watch

The Watcher with her did you guys see that the microphone no no it's good oh the movie The Watcher yeah not the Netflix series

no no no the movie that came out that was good that was great and but she couldn't. The guy following her in the middle of the night.

Yeah. That's one I would not recommend to you. In a way that I would recommend Barbarian because I think it has that different feeling that we're talking about. I think I don't ever allow myself to be immersed in a movie like that because I don't want to feel uncomfortable. But you would is my point. Yeah. You would start to think about your life you walking down a street my reaction is so instinctively avoidant that it's probably

something we could talk about in therapy but you know like my thing is right here amanda my thing is just like no i don't want to do this i don't want to i don't want to avoid and i just am like i don't want to deal with this and then i run away i just think there's a lot of overlap between rom-coms and horror i think you're completely right and for me it's just like i would like to spend my time this way and i do not want to spend my time that way do you would you like me to now interrogate sean about why he's wrong about not liking romantic comics never ever ever ever said i don't like you don't like it's not my favorite genre why i that's the part I don't like it. You're not a big fan. It's not my favorite genre. Why?

That's the part I don't understand. It's so many of the classics are romantic comedies. I find it hard. Well, that's true. And I would say that I am usually very celebratory of the classics. It's the mid-tier and the lower tier. Like the cream of the crop to me are among the best films ever made but anything that is mediocre i don't have a taste for but i don't i i i respect that amanda

doesn't like horror movies i don't i don't berate her for not liking them i think it bothers her that i don't like mediocre rom-coms i it bothers me it bothers me that you don't like mediocre horror films it bothers me that you don't like mediocre romantic comedy it bothers me that you sit there being like i like them i like them that you don't like mediocre romantic comedies. It bothers me that you sit there being like, I like them. I like them fine. Yeah, I don't think you do.

Because it doesn't feel like you do, Sean. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Or you can't not have your cake. It doesn't feel like I do? It doesn't. What do I have to gain

by lying about liking, you know, above average romantic comedies? Literally nothing. I just think you avoid, like when we, like, has there ever been like a deep dive into romantic comedies. Literally nothing. I just think you avoid, like when we, like, has there ever been

like a deep dive into romantic comedies and the history of romantic comedies on this podcast? We just did a Julia Roberts Hall of Fame. Well, that's different because Amanda, Amanda really wanted,

and obviously. Whose idea was that episode? It was your idea because what you do is update the spreadsheet at 3 a.m. No, what I do is

co-host the podcast with you and try to put you in a position to succeed as much as I can. co-host the podcast with you and try to put you in a position to succeed as much as I can. I've heard tons of shows on here about what do you call it?

Garbage crime. Yeah. I do like those episodes. Those episodes rock, Sam. I don't know what you're talking about. Your friend Chris Ryan is on those episodes.

I'm not saying I dislike those episodes, but I don't see the romantic comedy versions of those shows. Part of the issue there is that the genre is dead. I mean, it's death. Well, but there's a history.

You've been working with Julia. There's a history. You know. There is still a history of movies that you can go back on. The show's not ending anytime soon. What are we worried about? I'm available, as Sean knows. I think that if you want to come back next time

let's do it and you want to build the Romantic Comedy Hall of Fame we can do that I don't know how we get around the Woody Allen thing we'll have to talk about that you and I have talked about

Woody Allen before in this respect we have where it's because I did not grow up watching those and I came to them later it's very easy for me

I start with Nora and so and there is a sense of and you're completely right that the influence sure but but do you not like what do you like so you didn't go back and watch the old no i've seen but you're not seeing most of them i i appreciate them but you know i so that's a no well i get it okay well are you gonna accost her for that the way you accosted me i like some of them but to give you a recent example for the julia roberts hall of fame i went back and watched everybody says i love you which you know is sort of a romantic comedy and also like a movie musical homage which are two things i really love and i

was just kind of annoyed that it was like Woody Allen successfully seducing Julia Roberts, like respectfully. No, thank you. That's I just that's not what I want to watch in a in that type of film, because it's obviously someone else's wish fulfillment. Right, right, right. So it's just, you know, but I I do understand the influence. Well, we should do this. We should do this. I mean, by the way, prior to all of that, we still have like the Howard Hawks films. Which are our favorite, like our shared favorites. We have talked quite a bit about the His Girl Fridays that happened one night. Bringing up babies.

By the way, one movie that was on the AFI list that I had never seen that I finally saw was Philadelphia Story. Oh, yeah. Not one of my favorites. I did not like it. Yeah, not one of my favorites. That was one of the ones where I was like, I finally saw was Philadelphia Story. Oh, yeah. Not one of my favorites. I did not like it. Yeah, not one of my favorites. That was one of the ones where I was like, I don't know.

It's loose. You know, it takes a while. And I much prefer Bringing Up Baby. Yes. Or His Girl Friday. Oh, sure. Yeah, of course.

You know what? I think this is kind of a blasphemous take, but isn't High Society a remake of Philadelphia Story? The Bing Crosby, Grace Kelly, Frank Sinatra movie? I haven't seen it. I kind of like it better. It a like a soft remake and i kind of like it better but that's

neither here nor there uh can we talk about making movies sure so it's been a you've made a lot of tv but you haven't made a movie in a long is it 10 years when when when did your first film come out is it 2014 yeah it's about eight years eight years well this movie hasn't come out? Is it 2014? Yeah, it's about eight years. Eight years. Well, this movie hasn't come out yet. Right, right. It'll come out like next year. So it'll be nine years between movies, yeah. So Leave the World Behind

is the new film. Yes. Comet is the first film. I like Comet a lot. Thank you. Is that where you met Emmy? Comet? That is.

That's exciting. Yeah. This is an adaptation of a best-selling novel. Have you read it? I have not read it. I believe you have read it. Such a great book.

I love it. I'm fascinated to know how you adapted it. It's read it? I have not read it. I believe you have read it. Such a great book. I love it. I'm fascinated to know how you adapt it. It's very different. The movie is very different. I'm sure. And I don't want you to spoil everything for me, but like... Don't ask any details, please.

No, no, no, I'm not. But I just... You should read it, Sean. You would like it. Maybe I will. Well, how do you decide to adapt it? Like, did you read it and think... Because I knew the movie

would be so different than the book. And did you read it and immediately think this is like this is what the movie version would look like that's amazing yeah that's and honestly if I read the book and I was like oh I just need to transplant this onto the screen I probably wouldn't have done that it's because the book is so literary and only really works in that medium that I thought, oh, I have a movie version of this story that's so different from the book and doesn't take away from the power of the book that would really work in a cinematic way. But and then I spoke to Roman about it. I said, I'm going to change it a lot. I don't know him, but I'm also just a huge fan of his. He's so

lovely. He's in the movie. Oh, is he? Oh, I'm so glad. I love all of his books. His partner and his kids are in the movie. One of the rare great Twitter presences, in my opinion. And he recommends books. Roman and me. Yeah, Roman and me. No, and he's put me onto Anita Bruckner and a lot of other novelists

that I didn't know about. Yeah, from just him tweeting. I don't know him at all okay anyway he's so lovely wonderful novelist yeah can you give a just a very small snapshot of what the story is without spoiling anything god yeah you gotta practice this you're gonna have to do this next year when did you read the the book I read it before it came out oh you did. Because I read it in like April 2020, which was a, that was really early pandemic. Wait, so you got it before it came out? Oh, maybe I read it in May. I read it like when it was released.

I don't think I had it advanced. I thought it was like the fall of 2020. Because I read it. Was it? I thought so. Maybe it was. Maybe you're right. I read it in really, it still felt like.

October 6th, 2020. Okay, I didn't get it. I read it in early pandemic. And I guess October 2020 still felt like early pandemic. i didn't get it i read it in early pandemic and i guess october 2020 still felt like early pandemic and it was an eerie time how would you set it up why don't you set up the book sure that'll be my okay answer to sean um so a a couple a new york couple with children and the woman who is played by jul Roberts is named Amanda, which is just another fact I share. True story. They rent a home, an Airbnb home.

In Long Island. In Long Island, yeah. And set out for vacation. And then, I mean, how much am I going to spoil? Not much. The two owners show up the first night that they're there. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. And then things go crazy from there. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is terrible. This is a thriller, right? Yeah. So that's the book.

And then I added a thriller element, which I don't really want to get in because that would get into spoilers. But then, yeah, that's when I came in with the genre. You'll be able to sell the movie all over again next year when it comes out. But what I think we both wanted to talk to you about, in hopefully a both remedial and sophisticated way, is how do you direct a movie? So it's been, you've directed a lot of TV since the last film.

But I want to hear both about very nitty gritty details of what it is to be a film director. Right. And also maybe how you've changed as a film director since your first film. Is this interesting to you, Amanda? Of course. It is?

I love like really basic how does it work stuff. And I'm going to ask you a lot of like very obvious questions. Please. I don't think it's that different than, I don't direct TV differently than when I direct a movie. It's the same to me. Okay.

In fact, when I mix the movie, I do surround sound and Dolby Atmos with my TV shows, even though I know people are watching it on their phones, you know? Don't gesture at me when you say watching it on their phones. I don't watch anything on my phone.

That's good. I don't either. That's good. I know plenty of people that don't even own TVs my phone. That's good. I don't either. That's good. I know plenty of people that don't even own TVs. Yeah, we have two. Jesus. I have five. So, so, so the different, there are no differences.

It's to me always a cinematic experience. And, and, and all I mean by that, not how you watch it, but just that you fill the frame with as much detail. You know, by the way, just as a tangent, I listened to the James Gray interview. I love James Gray. We're actually working on something together. But man, his interview with you is so. It's wonderful. He's so profound and articulate about art

and the nature of art and I agree he's like in between directing operas in Italy he's a very special man

Paris actually yeah just because I you know he was like I was in a gilded cage I just I just feel like

and you had Alex Ross like this is you're in the club what are you talking about no but I just want listeners to lower their expectations because I'm not gonna be you're right there with James in terms talking about no but I just want listeners to lower their expectations because I'm not going to be

you're right there with James in terms of people saying when will this guy come on I'm just saying like just we're not going to

get profound this is just going to be very I mean straight like from Jersey straight forward no intellect here so what do I do

I read the book I write the script okay can I ask wait so we talked about you read the book and you can suddenly see this very literary movie, like visually as a movie, which is just a gift. Um, do you, is it, is how, how do you do that?

Does it just pop up in your head? It pops up. Like, look, hold on. No, it's not. Look, Amanda, I bet you when you on. No, it's not. Look, Amanda, I bet you when you read books sometimes, especially books that maybe you don't love as much, don't you start thinking about, oh man, if they took a left instead of a right and they did, or they added this element to it, or, or even as you start extrapolating what the book might mean

or what it actually is talking about and it sends you like those are the types of thoughts i'm talking about yes but it's so funny my thoughts like my extracurricular narrative is not the form of a screenplay that's fine it's editorial notes i start arguing with the author and i'm just like well and that's because i have a basis yes that's i have a very similar reaction which which is not, oh, what could this be? But here's how they got this wrong. Yeah. And that's unfortunate.

And I'm just like, what if we did this? And could we just sit down and I would like to give you these notes? And I think it should be this instead of this. Anyway, which I'm sure that all artists receive very well. I just want to read something really quickly, too, that's somewhat related to this. So Tarantino actually wrote this new book of film theory and criticism. It's really fun.

You read it? I read it, yeah. One of the chapters is what if De Palma directed Taxi Driver? Right. And it is kind of splitting the atom between the two things that you're talking about, which is Quentin imagining the left turns

that could have been taken on that film and the way that it could have been stylized. But it's also a very subtle, here's what Scorsese got wrong in making Taxi Driver, which feels like blasphemous, but is also very deeply considered. Like he really is going through beat by beat story choices. And I'd never really seen somebody

combine the two ethics that you're talking about and he someone just did it so it's funny that you're asking her these questions actually this brings up something that i wanted to bring uh because i just listened to your tar i haven't seen tar i'm so excited to see tar because i i love todd fields and i love those other two movies but um you said something in your review where it's like i forget what you said but it's almost five stars not five stars and i wouldn't have done something that he does in the movie yeah and i started to think to myself well is sean saying that as a critic or is he saying that as a filmmaker because you're making a filmmaking choice when you say that i i have um at the risk of being really

self-regarding, I've started to shift into thinking about these things the way that you're describing. Which is not to say I'm making a film. But what are you saying, though?

Are you saying, oh, he shot this scene incorrectly or he included a scene that I would have cut? Tar is such an interesting example for this also because it's so written.

And I do honestly think that's part of the reason that I came so alive to it i think it's also visually like incredibly accomplished but it is some of the things that sean is talking about are the ideological or like narrative choices that are are as much in story brain as they are in visual you you know this as someone who has especially conceiving television shows and films as well like some people make a lot of decisions and some people make a few and then let everything else kind of glide he made many many many decisions in this film there's a so much intentionality

that it's easier to say i would have gone right here instead of left. So you are saying the better film would have been to change your choice here to that. There's some opacity in that movie that I think just a little bit could have been clarified and strengthened the way that the story is told.

Just a little bit. Now, that could, or it could have been, let's take a scene or two out of this to deepen the ambiguity. Like, I think both of those things could have happened and made the film slightly stronger, but we're ambiguity. Like, I think both of those things could have happened and made the film

slightly stronger, but we're really, like, I'm splitting hairs. Like, I thought it was pretty masterful with a handful of exceptions. We don't usually get that deep on a movie either.

We rarely talk for 90 consecutive minutes about one movie. I had to stop because I know you're going to spoil it. Well, because I want to see it first. I think we both just felt like there was so much to sink into.

You might hate it also, which I would love to come back if you hate it. I haven't hated it. I think his other two movies were… It's a rich text. Yeah. But it's a good challenge for moviegoers. Is it your number one?

I haven't decided yet, but it's definitely… It's on my short list for a top five. Nope is making a late-breaking charge for me. I watched it a second time, and I was like, holy fuck. It's pretty good. God, I'm going to be so disappointed to watch it at home. Nope. That's my match.

I thought it was good. I mean, it was never better than... I want to look up and down. You know what I mean? I know. That was very special. Wait, so I have some more movie making. Go ahead.

Yes, please. Go ahead. So you're writing this script. Yes. And you're seeing things in your mind. Yes. Are you seeing, say, Julia Roberts in the script? Are you seeing the specific house?

I read the book and I emailed it to Julia. I'm like, please read this. She read it the next day and she's like, let's do it. Okay. Oh, amazing. What a powerful person you are. That's incredible. Well, Julia and I are, you know, we're friends now.

Is she primarily an emailer as opposed to a texter? No, no, no. We text more than email but I'm not gonna text her yeah no of course I'm not either I was just wondering

you know there are some people who are emailers are you an emailer texter I text no you know what I'm

I signal do you guys use signal no though you and I discussed that once about whether or not we should be using it you should be using signal

okay but yeah it's basically text. Can I tell you a very quick story? Sure. When I was working as an editor at Grantland, the site that I worked at previous to The Ringer. I'm very aware of it. Yes.

A writer who will go unnamed went to Burning Man and filed a piece to me about his experience at Burning Man. And he sent it via text message. Not one of my better days. Okay. Very, very difficult formatting day as an editor. He sent it as like a file attachment or he literally texted? He texted the whole story to me. A 3,000 word story about Burning Man.

Had he written it elsewhere and then copy and pasted it into text? I have no idea. Okay. All right. So Julia's already on board. Julia, great. And then you write the script. And then I write the script.

Well, then i sell it right right okay i just have a book sure julia and me and then i'm like okay now who wants to make it before it was released right yeah yeah yeah because i remember reading it did you know about ramon before this book yeah because he wrote another book called rich and pretty and i mean i think he also he worked in media for a while so i have friends who worked with him or something right um so i knew of his work but i don't know i've still never met him this is incredibly creepy um just to be like wow what do you know you know when we do the leave the world behind pod next year we'll we'll bring julia i bring ramon it's is that okay

are you gonna be okay i'll get it together it's good that you're giving me like i'm giving you a year like if i actually need her i wear your dress thank you thank you sam we were talking about can before you got here get that all like that'll be a good i swear i can be normal and i would be normal okay um i just she's incredibly i just don't want to put julia in harm's way do you know what i mean i'm not like a stalker i'm not a stalker she just means a lot to me few people mean that much she means a lot to me too she's she's doesn't she's and she seems she's as wonderful as she is yeah yeah yeah okay so you you sell it.

I sell it. And then you have to write a script. And then I write the script. Yep. That's, yep. What is that feeling like? Is that a feeling of anxiety or exhilaration? Exhilaration.

Oh, that's great. Oh, wow. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me just tell you my overview of filmmaking. The writing of it is exhilarating. I mean, no one's waiting on like i mean i guess there is a deadline but like you know i write pretty fast so i never worry about

that but you're imagining what this movie could be and obviously at the beginning you're like this is going to be number one on the afi top right this is the masterpiece right um and so you are just like picturing the perfect movie with the perfect music and the perfect performances and the perfect cinematography. So I'm writing this and it's so much fun because I'm having as much fun as I want people to have when they're watching a movie. And then you get into prep. Am I jumping ahead? No, no. Wait, one more question. How long did it take you get into prep. Am I jumping ahead? No, no, no. Wait, one more question.

How long did it take you to write the script? Really fast. Like, give me a week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, six weeks. No, let's say a month, a month. That's very fast.

Continue, yeah. It's pretty fast. I'm pretty fast. And then, because I'll just tell you quickly about my writing process. I probably wrote it in two weeks. Okay.

What I call a vomit draft. I'm sure you guys have heard of that. And then you just go back and then you start finessing because I just don't want to look at a blank page. What time of day do you write? I usually try and write at night. Although now with the kid, well, no, I wrote this before the kid. I'm thinking ahead, but I'm thinking now with the kid, I probably will not. I don't, I'm not a morning person.

Is that when you write I I hate writing which is another reason that I you should understand that you have a singular gift um my husband hate writing I I do I am not good at it and well that's not no thank you but it's it doesn't come naturally to me and I live my husband is a writer he loves and he loves it he is like you he's fast he's exhilarated he really likes doing it and i think i realized i wasn't a writer when i wound up with him and i saw like the energy with which he attacked it um but he writes in the morning which honestly is not ideal from child care either because then you know who's the child care it's yours truly oh but he's gonna have

to get up he still doesn't he doesn't get gets up. The problem is that he did that anyway. Before. Like a five or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. Like what time does Knox get up? Seven? Seven, yeah.

Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seven. Seven, yeah. Shout out mom's on call. But Zach can only do the morning. Not only, but I think he would say. He's talked about this in public,

so I'm not like invading his personal space. Do you think, Sean? I can really never know the answer to that question. Yeah, me either. Anyway, he's like a, he's morning because I think the rest of the world doesn't intrude as much, which I think at some point at night,

once the world is quieted down. And I like bringing the day into the, I like thinking about, like what i do is i write you know whatever 10 15 20 pages and then the next day i think about what i had just written and what i want to write next and i need the whole day to like kind of think about it because you know let's face it most the writing is actually the thinking about what you're going to write yeah do you have actual typing what does that matter do you have a stopping time every day you know, let's face it. Most, the writing is actually the thinking about what you're going to write. Yeah. The actual typing.

What does that matter? Do you have a stopping time every day or will you write in till one o'clock in the morning? Sometimes two or three in the morning. Yeah. Okay. Again, I don't know if this is possible anymore with a kid. Right.

Yeah. I have a lot of questions about that too. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to, yeah, I'll have to think about that. I don't know the answer to that either.

Do you think your creativity has been reset by that? Like your ability to execute in the way that you used to? Well, I don't know, answer to that either. Do you think your creativity has been reset by that? Like your ability to execute in the way that you used to? I don't know, Sean. I mean, now you put it like that. No, I don't think so. This is a recurring anxiety for someone on this podcast. You're feeling anxious about... I'm not an inherently creative person.

But I think that... I mean, there's a loss of time, obviously. I, by the way, do not agree with that. I think film... You know, I wanted to be a critic at first. Thank God you didn't. Look at you now. Well, I mean... Texting with loss of time, obviously. I, by the way, do not agree with that. I think film critics... You know, I wanted to be a critic at first. Thank God you didn't. Look at you now. Texting with Julia Roberts for Christ's sake.

I will say this. Film criticism is an art that I cannot do at all. I mean, I agree with that. There are many people who, I would say, would not describe us as critics. I think we are... Because you don't write? Because it's...

I'm on hiatus from writing. Yeah, but also... I still think it's film criticism. We try to do history and kind of formal analysis, but I think we're selling a slightly different thing. And I appreciate that you think that it requires some sort of skill or whatnot. But I don't...

I respect the actual critics who... Who write. Well, not just who write, but who bring that critical rigor. You guys do that, I think. I mean, I read a lot of film, because again, I used to want to be a film critic. There's a lot of terrible critics out there.

That's true. That's certainly true. A lot of terrible critics out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I learn way more from you two than most of them out there. So where were we? Well, the creativity thing is interesting to me.

I mean, let me put it in a less doomsaying way. 4.30 to 6.30 mean, let me put it in a less doomsaying way. 430 to 630 now every day in my life, for the most part, assuming I can get away from work, is just spent with Alice. And that's like the best part of my day. But that used to be a very productive time of the day for me. And I'm not giving it up, but it means that I got to make that time up at night.

And I also want to watch movies at night. So something's going, you know, something's getting sacrificed. Like I'm, I'm quote unquote, less productive. And that might be just a passing thing. And as she gets older, things will change. But like, I wonder for a creative person, does that, well, has that impacted you? I know it won't affect my viewing habits. Cause I do all the work first and then I throw something on.

Okay. You know, like I'll do it when I get – and at that point, I'll just get in bed and watch something and then go to sleep. It is the – the thing is – what time do you guys go to bed now? Probably midnight. I go to bed like 8 or 9. I would love to go to bed at 8 or 9. I love it. 8 or 9 p.m.?

Yeah. That's amazing. Holy Christ. I fucking love it. The rule has always been – It's fucking amazing. Yeah. eight or nine i i would love to go to bed at eight or nine p.m yeah that's holy christ i fucking love the rule has always been it's fucking amazing yeah when i when i was pregnant the rule was that i had to stay up as long as the sun and especially in the first trimester yeah during that that i mean that was like because otherwise i would just you know be in bed at like five you're a profound sleeper though even even into your your 30s you're a profound sleeper though. Yeah. Even into your 30s you're a profound sleeper. I was a profound sleeper.

But so yeah. Does Zach go to bed when you go to bed? He goes to bed even earlier than I do. So when he's traveling for work I actually. So he's like an eight or a nine.

He's like nine to 30 is when he'll he makes himself stay up until nine to 30. And then I will usually get in bed around then and read for a while. But if it's just me suddenly it's like like 1145 and I'm just like texting Sean about weird movies I watched.

And he's like, and Sean like knows enough to know. I'll be like, Zach needs to come home because Amanda is going to be like completely sleep deprived tomorrow. So that's how we're living. I just don't know if I want to give that up anymore because it has been really nice. Sleep's amazing. Sleep's amazing. Sleep's amazing. And then you get up early. You get up before, you know, we get up before she wakes up.

And then we get to hang out a little bit. And then I'm like refreshed and ready to hang out with her. Yeah, you have energy. Yeah, no, it's amazing. Yeah. I don't know if I'll ever be that person. Well, I've heard the comment, oh, like when you have kids, it'll change. Like Euphoria is one of my favorite shows on TV. And so many people I know, I can't watch.

I have kids. I can't watch that. I don't feel that way. What the fuck does that mean? I don't watch it because I don't really care about other people's drug experiences. It's a great show. It's a good take. It's not like in a judgment way.

I mean, like, please be safe. But it's just like watching other people do drugs is just not interesting to me. I think it's a very good show for a variety of reasons but the filmmaking that's the biggest reason probably the best

some of the best filmmaking on TV or film you should watch it it is at times breathtakingly well made yeah Zendaya's amazing

do you not like I love Zendaya I just again it's just like yeah they're like high and there's like music I think you are reducing. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. But that's, I saw the first three episodes and I didn't stick with it. Okay. That's what that sounds like. Yeah. You know what? I'm busy and I'm trying to watch all the damn movies that you put in the spreadsheet and

also be with my child. So something's got to go. It's a huge challenge. Yeah. I will say quickly on the, like, I can't watch kids in danger stuff. Anything that is deeply realistically portrayed, I find to be, I at least feel a pang now. But anything that is allegorical or like a horror movie like Mother, anything that is absurd, I don't have a problem with that. But stuff that is, I can't think of an example right off the top of my head, but something that is like trying to replicate an authentic experience of like losing your child or your child being kidnapped or something i i i do feel it honestly i do feel like in a way that i never would have three years ago you do i do yeah

wow but only for something that is drama and not genre this goes back to i don't get lost and i don't know is that a weird thing to say as a filmmaker as a person who loves movies i don't get lost that much where i start to think about my personal life in the in the situation i think i think when you create it you do have a different mentality like because of the way you were talking about reading the book and imagining how you would make something you maybe have a different relationship to this stuff than we might. But I also am always observing the artifice. I don't necessarily forget about the cinematography.

Obviously, with a Wes Anderson movie, it's very clear that there's an artifice. And he's not even trying to get you to be lost specifically in the story. He wants you to watch the production design and the cinematography and the compositions, right? But with a movie like, well, actually, I'll bring up The Good Nurse. A movie like The Good Nurse, which I thought was well-crafted.

I thought the performance, I know you guys don't like the movie, but like the performances, Eddie Redmayne is insanely good in that movie. Jessica Chastain is great great movie noah emmerich is great in the movie like i you know i watched it still jody lee leipz who's a great cinematographer who shot the movie it's beautiful beautiful to look at you know it's very straightforward there's not a lot of stylization to it it's a really bad script but

that's that's why the movie doesn't work it It's got nothing to do with any of the performances or how it looks. I was a little more open to it than Sean was. I remember. But I agree that at some point... You're going to call that a bad script. I think it's a very bad script. But the other movie that we talked about...

They're just screaming out prescription drug names with no... As a procedural, it's a little dicey. If you're going to mention Ambulance, Ambulance also prescription drug names with no, you know, as a procedural, it's a little dicey. If you're going to mention Ambulance, Ambulance also has a bad script but that has nothing to do with why I liked it.

What do you, but, but, but, Come on, you're Mr. Pure Cinema. He likes the experience. He just wants to be,

It's a thrill ride. See that movie in a movie theater? I did not. Well, okay. Case closed. I did not.

I still have not seen all of Ambulance. I just understand. That's, that's his project. You know, everybody's got a project and his project is, you know, Ambulance is good. I still have not seen all of Ambulance. I just understand. That's his project. You know, everybody's got a project. And his project is, you know, Ambulance is good. I just didn't understand why.

You kept saying something like, what did we learn from this movie? Tell me, Sean, what did you learn from Ambulance? That there is a future in action cinema. That there is a new way to make these movies. Yes, of course I felt that way. That's the future of action cinema? Absolutely. It's the first time

somebody took drone cinematography and made it exciting and didn't just make it tracking shots of cars on lonely roads. Now I'm more depressed if that's the future. Look, I think Michael Bay

is a great experimenter and I appreciate some of it. He literally carved a path for people who will do increasingly interesting stuff with that style of filmmaking. Action cinema has to make sense. No, it doesn't.

It does. It does. The best action films. This is why James Cameron is one of the best action film directors out there. This is why Spielberg is one of the best action film directors. I do not think that Michael Bay is as gifted as either of those people, nor are his films as good as either of their films. But the problem is that, if you're saying that's the future of action cinema, the biggest problem with action filmmaking

is you know, I can't understand, like it's Amanda's point when they start punching and you just get bored. I don't understand what's going on. It's just a bunch of cuts, a bunch of loud noises,

a bunch of inserts of fists hitting faces. Like Raiders of the Lost Ark, those action sequences are memorable because Spielberg knew where to put the camera, where you understand where each character is in every given sequence, and when to move the camera and when to cut. This shit is just like a lot of like,

just let's throw things up on the screen with some cool toys, with some innovative film filmmaking techniques cut it all together and um you know hopefully you won't notice that things don't make sense you are comparing ambulance to raiders of the lost ark i am not doing that nor am i comparing the good nurse necessarily you were saying you were saying ambulance is the future of action cinema. No, what I'm saying

it's carving a path. It's showing us how to use new tools and also if I'm being really high-minded about it it is a representation say unlike Raiders of the Lost Ark

of what modern action movie making would be at this time which is to say it is addled it is fast moving and fast cutting. It doesn't have to be.

It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be but it is for this filmmaker Avatar which I know for whatever reason was made 13 years ago okay there's a new one coming out now

that's true I haven't seen it yet still one of the highest grossing films of all time and it doesn't rely on cheap fast cutting or you know just wham

it doesn't have to be that way I'm not saying it has to be you're making it sound like Ambulance is every action movie. No, but you're saying this is carving on the path for modern filmmaking. I think what he's doing is showing off how the tools can be used. And that in and of itself is exciting. I can appreciate that.

I can appreciate using new tools and trying to innovate ways. By the way, just so you know, another one of your favorite movies, The Gray Man, also used drone cinematography. It's not the tool. Yeah, and it looked like shit. But that's my point. It's not the tool necessarily. The Gray Man didn't show me something that I'd never seen before. Did you watch The Gray Man?

I did watch The Gray Man. What did you think? I actually watched The Gray Man during the 24 hours when COVID had really consumed my body. Oh, you had COVID. Yeah, we all all did over the summer and we were fine. And I got a pretty light sentence as far as COVID goes. But there were like 24 hours where I didn't feel very great. And then I watched the great. And then I felt even worse. But but also, you know, was in a mental state where i just didn't invest and that was probably i mean it was garbage though it's really depressing also i love ryan gosling i i love ryan gosling he's another one that i can and i thought julia butters she's great

i'm even a little bit charmed by chris. Chris Evans, yeah. Yeah. I don't, but you, for some reason. But it was garbage and they spent so much money. Can I just say what I don't understand? Like, did you see a difference between Ambulance and Grayman in terms of that? In terms of. Well, once again, I have only seen Ambulance on someone else's screen on an airplane. I think honestly, while we were getting COVID, that might be where we got COVID was from the people watching Ambulance. And it was very jumpy. You know, that's really, that's my takeaway. Just cameras moving fast. But the thing about the gray man,

whatever, let's not talk about the gray man. Let's not talk about the gray man. What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of junior chicken, McDouble, or chicken snack wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink.

So pick up a McValue Meal today at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. Let's go back to making movies. Okay, go ahead.

You were talking about prep and how you love writing and you dread prep. Ugh, prep. No, I don't dread prep. Oh, but you feel anxious during prep? No, I love prep. Oh, okay.

You're just the happiest clown in the world, huh? Oh my God. You just like making movies. By the way, I've never really done this before because you don't have time in TV, but I pre-vis'd, which is literally you have them animate the scene and the camera moves

and you're like testing shots out is this because there was something new that you wanted there were set pieces in the movie and they were like you know we should really pre-vis i'm like yeah like like they said in a way where they they thought i would say no i will not pre yeah i think usually when you hear that it's a sequence where thanos is getting an infinity stone right it's very rarely in like a thriller. Yeah. Well, they usually do it for any stunt or action sequence, right? Because they want to know exactly what it's going to look like.

It's going to include VFX. So the VFX artists want to know exactly what you're going for. And then off that, we decide how we want to shoot it, right? Because then it gets complicated because, you know, there's stunts. There's, you know, potential vehicle work and blue screen and all that stuff. But when I started pre-visiting, I was like, I just want to pre-vis the whole movie now. When you're doing that, are you looking at other movies?

I mean, I watch movies every day. Are you asking if I watch movies? So what will happen is Todd, my cinematographer, and I will be talking, we'll be shot listing, and I'll be like you know, Todd, my cinematographer, and I will be talking, we'll be shot listing. I'll be like, God, should we end this scene? And then I'll remember and then I'll go on Amazon Prime and pull up a clip and then I'll be like, like that. When I'm watching Homecoming, I'm like, well, Sam definitely watched Clute. He definitely watched Clute before this episode. Well, Pakula is like, my God.

Right. There's like one filmmaker that meant more than any other filmmaker to me, outside of maybe Kubrick, it's probably Pakula. But did you have a similar, because that obviously was in some way felt like an homage to those films that you loved so much. Did you have something like this, like a North Star? Well, even with Homecoming, it's not that I thought Pakula, like I got to rip off Pakula. I mean, honestly, when I did Mr. Robot,

I thought of Pakula a lot. I don't know if I have one thing or one North Star, one way of filming it that I'm going to be like, let's hit that every single time. It's different from scene to scene. It's different from shot to shot,

to be honest with you. After Previz, casting? Or has casting already happened? from scene to scene it's different from shot to shot to be honest with you after pre-vis casting or is casting already happened so casting's already kind of going on probably simultaneously right so i'm pre-vising i'm shot listing and we're casting and the cast is pretty much it's not a big cast you've read the book it's like it's like six main characters. And so I'm casting, and that's exciting too, right? Because then you hear, you start to hear, like I do a table read, and I start to hear these characters come to life. Because, you know, obviously on the page, it's one thing.

When they're saying it, then it all of a sudden starts to feel real. And that gets me excited. And then... Do you change anything in the script? Absolutely. All the time. Are you changing dialogue? Or are you changing like the entire, the beat of this scene or what this scene is doing

is different now because of who these, what these people are bringing to it? I would say that I'm mostly changing dialogue, but there were instances where we changed, I changed the sequence because I was like, well, you know, when you sit through a table read, which I assume neither one of you have sat through a table read, it is like you're watching the movie for the first time. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. Because you're just like sitting back and you're hearing it all come to life. So then you, when you watch like a first cut of the movie, you're like, huh, well, that didn't really work or that didn't really track.

And then you start making adjustments, changes or this this is repetitive you know you start to feel all those things that you couldn't when you're just reading the script and then um then what do we do then we production design which is also really fun right so can i ask some questions about that well specifically i'd like to ask about the house yes so well tell me is there one house or did you do did you build a set like to ask about the house. Yes. So, well, tell me, is there one house or did you build a set? Like, what happened with the house? We found an amazing house in Long Island and then we built it on stage. Okay.

So you have an exterior and you built the interior? No, we have a, well, yes. Yeah, we have an exterior. We also shoot interior on location okay plus we built it but then you just recreated it

in order to be able to do some things okay tell me how much can you tell me about the house and the process of finding it

that took forever that was a little frustrating because it had to be the perfect house yeah of course it's a central character it's a character yeah and

you know it's very specific when you read the novel, but I really wanted to retain that. And there's a lot of Trump supporters in Long Island. You know that's where I'm from. I know. I know. It's a hard time there now. It is. But we finally found it. It was a beautiful house. Can you say what town?

It's a Bethpage? Bethpage. Are you near Bethpage? Like maybe 25 minutes, but one of the great public golf courses in America is in Bethpage. Oh you near Bethpage? Like maybe 25 minutes, but one of the great public golf courses in America is in Bethpage. Oh, that's right. Yeah, that's how I've heard of it. It's a golf course I played growing up. Let's just absolutely keep sailing past that, okay? I do not care about golf.

Amanda, I'm with you on this. It's a public golf course. Yeah. That is, I'm happy for you. I was raised on municipal golf courses. I'm not from the upper crust. Talk to me about like a house tour. Is so, Sue, are you, like, talk to me about, like, a house tour.

Is that what you, are you doing? I know you have a location manager and someone who's, like... Yeah, no, no, no. And we see a bunch of houses and a lot of them are beautiful, but we get to the final house,

the house we end up using in the movie, and it is pretty, like, just from just the outside, you're, like, amazed, and then you go inside and it's like perfect okay it's just like i don't want to touch it because we assumed that we would find like kind of not the right house and remember parasite if you ever seen the behind the scenes footage of

that like the exterior of the house is not the actual house they added like blue marks on the thing and they augmented it in vfx we didn't have to do any of that amazing the house was just like perfect 10 out of 10 who do people live in this house the rest of the time it's just people with immaculate taste has your house

ever been scouted no my old house in Echo Park was scouted for a film actually a film we both like quite a bit

I never told you this no I don't mind saying it wasn't used it was Marriage Story my house was scouted oh I do I remember that I remember that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that movie. And they came and interviewed us and everything. We did the thing and ultimately they went somewhere. I don't even know where they ended up going.

But it's a funny idea. Yeah. The idea of taking over someone's home that people live in. Yeah, you have to pay. They have to leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For a long amount of time. So you have to pay for them to leave and you have to pay for that house. Right, right, right. My parents still live in Atlanta and regularly they

and all their friends get scouted. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, for Atlanta productions. Hotbed of production. And my mother, like, you know, a film camera was on her lawn

and that was a great financial day for all of us. Anyway, so these people just, I just... They're nice people. Had they renovated recently? Like, are they design people?

They must have renovated it recently. Yes, they're definitely. We can do an HGTV podcast a different day, but I really. I love that you're asking about this. This is something Chris Ryan would not ask about. Yes, he would. He would not. He would not.

And, well, Chris, actually, I think this is like a. What is your group called? The Dob Mob? The Dob Mob? The Dob Mob? Yeah, I'm Dob Mob. Okay, thank you so much. You've already done this. You did this last time.

You're like, I'm in the Amanda team. But I just do think that this is a visual part. This is why I'm in the Dob Mob. How about that? Of filmmaking. No, you're absolutely right. That house is like literally the plot of the film. Amanda, we spent weeks curating the art that would hang on the walls in the house.

Now I want to know what type of, you can't tell us? I'm not going to tell you. And I think there's something we did with the design of the house that I'm not going to tell you. That I'm curious if you'll catch. Okay. Because most people don't. Okay. It's a pretty big thing.

And then once you catch it you'll you mean like is it a change to the i'm not gonna say anything okay i'm not gonna spoil it but i'm i love that we're talking about this yes we spent and and and this is the thing like anastasia stasha my production designer we would literally go through pages and pages of furniture and the yeah kind of the style of furniture and um and you know it was one of those things where that has to be part of the storytelling so like thematically how you know the book goes into race and sort of race relations in america and the history of american uh uh sort of americans relationship with race and that was imbued in

the design of the house in the choices of the house, in the choices of, you know, and all of the choices that we made within the furniture and all and the look of it. Again, I don't want to get into it too much, but I did the same thing with the wardrobe. So we then that's all. But this is like fun, right? Like, as I'm even talking about it, isn't it fun? You get to go around to all these different people and say now what are we going to talk about and then they

show you stuff and then you're like well what about this and what about that it's like playing you know what i mean it's like just being creative with all these different facets of this world that you're creating yeah i do i need to ask you yes and maybe i should say this for when julia and i hang out yes well i want to ask about the costume design and also how involved julia herself is because i don't know if you've seen ticket to paradise i haven't seen it yet it's pretty transcendent what she is wearing i heard yes she's dressed like a very elegant exterminator she's wearing a lot of jumpsuits. She is a big fan of jumpsuits. She does that on the red carpet.

It seemed very intentional and almost honestly, whoever works with her, whoever her stylist is or whoever she works with, was contributing to the costume design itself, which I think that's a movie where she's supposed to kind of like

be Julia Roberts a bit more. Right. And I would imagine that there is a lot of very specific Brooklyn type fashion that is happening. And does she wear number six clogs? Do you know what number six clogs are?

I don't. I don't. Does she wear clogs? No. Okay. All right. And I don't know if we get high fashion like that. Well, I don't know if that's high fashion. That's more Brooklyn mom fashion. Oh, again, I don't know if we get high fashion like that. I don't know if that's high fashion.

That's more Brooklyn mom fashion. Oh, again, I don't know what you're talking about when you say clogs. They're absurdly expensive clogs. They are high fashion. But Kat, my costume designer, she also did Homecoming. Yeah. Julia loved her. Okay.

So they worked together. They definitely collaborate. But I would say every cast member actually collaborates with the costume designer. Okay. Because it has to feel comfortable. It has to feel like the character. Totally. So anyway, that's really fun too, right?

And then I rehearse. That's really fun. Can you do a little bit on how you talk to actors? Well, it's weird because actors, it's like, you know, when you're... It's not dissimilar to when a coach has to talk to players like it's different for every player you know some actors need this thing and some actors need you know um they want more of an intellectual understanding of what they want in the scene some are pure emotion some people just hey give me some of the logistics of do i

need to hit this mark and then turn and do that or hold this thing in my hand so it's it's a lot of like trying to you got to like have honestly it's really dependent on your relationship with the person and like and their relationship to the work it's not unlike like how you're very different when chris is on and when you talk how am i different i mean, have you listened to your podcast? I try not to. I mean, you and Chris, it's like laughing hyenas the whole entire.

It's exactly right. No, but why does that mean? Chris is funny. And they, I, I have a soft spot for it. I don't wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Why are you guys thinking about, I don't have a soft spot for it. Yeah, but it is different.

It's different. You guys become, well, you just have an emotional bond. This is why I felt a little bit like I was intruding on the Banshees of Innish Erin podcast, which is a film I liked very much. Which I haven't seen it, and I started it on my way here, and I had to stop listening to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that is a film about male friendship, and I was like, I'm happy to be here, but I don't know if I can be here. Chris and I have 20 years.

Amanda and I have 10 years. So it's a slightly different. But no, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when you pod with Chris, there's a different energy that you're going to, to make the better show, there's a different energy that you go to that when you pod with Amanda. Do you feel that way when you have certain actors? Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. That's the comparison.

But in other words, do you feel like you have a laughing hyena energy when you're watching a certain actor that you love working with? Absolutely. Well, Julia and I, because we are friends now, that's very comfortable and easy. And yes, we're like you and Chris.

We are laughing hyenas. And then the rest of the cast members who I don't know as well, I'm getting to know them. It's, it's different. And then, you know, sometimes I overstep and, oh, okay, that's not going to work. Interesting. And ultimately what I'm trying to do is just carve a safe space.

This is, I, you've heard this before, but it really is true. I mean, it's, you know, they need to feel like they can be as vulnerable and as loose and go for it as possible. And the only way to do that is to make sure that they feel covered, that they feel safe, that they feel not judged. And that's one of the hardest things to do to direct, right? Like you have to somehow give a note that doesn't feel like they're being told that what they just did was wrong.

And by the way, it isn't, right? There's nothing right or wrong about whatever we're doing. We're just feeling our way through this. So that's the tricky part is like finding that language. And that language is sort of dependent on that, your relationship with whoever, you know, whoever you're directing. Are you, do you feel that you're a lot better at this part of the job now than you used to be? I think, yes, but I think, I can't imagine anyone saying no to that question what is something that you're not better at oh let me see well okay this is the part where I was about to get to because like I just love prep right yeah yeah just talking I'm like flying high and I'm so much fun yeah

it's creating world then we get into production and it's just a fucking nightmare it's a creating world. Then we get into production. And it's just a fucking nightmare. It's always a fucking nightmare. It's the least, it's my least favorite part of directing. Some people love to be on set. I know. I do not understand it. Everything's going wrong. Yeah. It doesn't matter how much your budget is.

It doesn't matter. Like, something's not right. Something's not there. You're compromising. You're having to problem solve. Everything that was planned goes out the window. And you're trying to figure it out. And it's not there. You're compromising. You're having to problem solve. Everything that was planned goes out the window and you're trying to figure it out. And it's incredibly frustrating. And it's no one's, no one person's fault.

It's just the elements get in the way. Reality gets in the way. And the thing that you had in your head when I first wrote the script and I was like, oh my God, this is now number one on the AFI top one. It is now rapidly descending that list. Not even in the vicinity of that list. And you're just praying that it's just decent and it's going to make sense by the end of it. You're not getting any sleep. You know, because, you know, it's a 12-hour shoot, which is brutal and, like, crazy.

And that, for me, I mean, I'm mostly just sitting in a director's chair looking, calling action cut. But all these crew members who are like sweating and heaving these like 12 to 14 hours a day. Plus and afterwards, they got to like pack everything up. Right. I get to at least go home, but I still got to work and shot list. And then you got to get up early the next day and you got to do it all over again. And you got to have like a smile on your face right because no one wants a grumpy director especially when the cast comes on you want them to feel like okay we're ready to go it's it's just the most

miserable experience ever and and that is probably something i didn't get better at i thought i would start getting used to it but man i directed every episode of Mr. Robot after season one right so I did all of season two that's 12 episodes you're widely considered insane for having basically pioneered this approach I did that primarily because I was like I need to enjoy production damn it and it didn't work it didn't work no no it is guys. There's nothing good about it. There's really, I don't understand the people that say they get like energized and spun. Like it just, it's just, it's constant problems that you're trying to solve and you have no time and you have a bunch of people waiting, you know, waiting for you, like looking at you, waiting

for you to just give an answer and you're trying to be artistic at the same you know i mean there's like all of it it contradicts one another but i imagine with your puzzle mind you love post love post yeah yeah love post so prep is like my favorite post is my second favorite production is like dead last and post is amazing right because then it's the final rewrite of the movie right then you get to hear the music then all those moments that didn't work you finagle to make work or you cut it and then it makes it better and you start watching it with people and you start getting their reactions and you start fine-tuning it and then you start seeing

the performances match with the cinematography and the camera moves match with the music i mean that's when the movie come you know cinematography and the camera moves match with the music. I mean, that's when the movie comes, you know, that's when the movie becomes the movie. You know what I mean? And like, I never, like the whole time, and I think this is really important for, I don't know if filmmakers do this. I always try and be the audience as much as I can. Like, I want to sit there and watch it and enjoy it. Like, like I imagine an audience

member would. And if you start losing that, if it starts being mechanical, like are you just trying to like put these pieces together? That's when I, that's when I, um, I get concerned. So the reason why I like prep and I like post is I get to do that the most, but when you're on set, you can't be an audience member when it starts raining in the middle of a scene and you've shot half the scene and you're like, well, now what do I do? Like, I got to bail on this scene.

Do I reshoot the first part? That's not being an audience member. That's just being annoyed. You know what I mean? And that happens constantly. How close is, I don't know if the film is finished, but how close is what you have now to

what you saw in your mind when you read the book um that's such a good question sean he's good at this um it's well i'll answer it like this i i think it's better than what I saw in my head. Wow. That's exciting. So it's number 1A on the AFI Top 100. That to me is, you know, I know I said that earlier, but for me, when I say that, I mean my list. I mean my Top 100 list. You know what I mean? I don't, you know, for me, when movies go out there, and this is like maybe the fourth phase of filmmaking,

is then you release the damn thing, which I haven't done yet. But when you do, I mean know you never know you never know what the fuck happens there are good movies that don't get well received and then there are bad movies that do and vice versa and you just and you know there are good movies that are good enough and then they just explode and take off so that i like i kind of just have to be more zen about that and just like let the public sort of decide it's weird like i sometimes wonder and in terms of analysis i wonder i wonder what that means when a certain movie or tv show takes off i'm sure that's happened to both of you where you're like i liked it but is it really as good as everyone else says you know

what i mean yeah you guys give me shit about ambulance meanwhile in the theater i'm like vibrating i think ambulance's reaction is exactly don't you think it's pretty what was its reaction it was i think bay heads were satisfied and everybody else was like this sucks i've been there before so yeah it's pretty spot on um i'm just talking about the outliers where you're like, wow. Oh, can you think of an example, like maybe just in the positive so you're not shitting on something? Well, okay. So, my AD did Banshees of the Isher. He actually did it right before he did my movie.

Okay. And, you know, he's a longtime colleague of Martin. And, you know, obviously they loved the movie. But they thought, I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know, but they thought it was going to be kind of in its lane. It's a little smaller, like a returning tire.

They did not expect. Or at least I should say Peter, I don't think anybody expected this. It's a really good example. It's like an intimate story that you feel like you're making something a little more personal. And I guess,

I haven't read this book, but this is a small cast yeah you know starry cast but small and kind of intimate and you know sometimes those are the best things you know that's like it's very possible that that feels the most pure and sometimes it doesn't work i mean look i look at parasite i love parasite right we talked about this it was my favorite movie that year i am still not sure why it got as much. A winning best picture will look like an insane outlier 10 years from now. Yeah.

And so you just never understand. By the way, for Halloween, I went as the green tracksuit from Squid Game. My daughter was the killer robot. Emmy was the dark master overlord with the mask. That's really good um and i love that show why that show was like the biggest hit of you know that's insane i think there's some distinct correlation between the success of parasite and that a show like that getting into the consciousness but that's a whole other well well i'll tell i'll give you a different

example because i guess i just realized those are two Korean, right? Those are two Korean little film TV shows. Yeah. But Dahmer. You guys watch Dahmer? No. No. It is insanely huge.

Yeah. The minutes watched is like 5x any other show on streaming in the last six months. And I watched it and I have to say, you know,

Carl Franklin, you guys should do a Carl Franklin. Do you know Carl Franklin? Yes. The filmmaker? Wonderful director. Did he direct episodes of Dahmer? Yes.

Oh, cool. He directed the first two and sort of set the tone. He did Devil in a Blue Dress and he did, you know, a bunch of movies in the 90s. One false movie. He's a great filmmaker.

And I watched the show and I really liked it and I liked it mostly because the filmmaking was so extraordinary. Evan Peters is pretty extraordinary. Why the fuck and I really liked it. And I liked it mostly because the filmmaking was so extraordinary. Evan Peters is pretty extraordinary. Why the fuck that show? True crime.

I mean, Amanda, this is a fucking dark, dark, dark, deeply dark show. Can you imagine a movie that dark doing well? Maybe not that well. Yeah. That's a shocker to me. Can I ask you is the film finished no

no are you a person who can accept the concept of something being that you worked on being finished yes

yes I want to be done you want to be done I want to be done but but um I'm not a guy who like dwells

I will say mix sound the sound sound is incredibly important to me and um and so we're doing uh Atmos which I

you know what yeah yeah yeah and I'm literally like we have to go through every speaker in the theater so that that that I'll probably spend I that we have yet to do that yet so I'll spend the bulk of my the rest of the time doing that yeah do you care about your setup at home that's a good question i have a terrible setup at home but if someone were to come and create something great and i also had the space you know like i can appreciate a better setup but I'm asking if you had a better setup, would you? Yeah, of course. You would. You care about sound?

You care about the mix? Yeah, you can absolutely tell the difference when you're in a theater. I don't think a lot of people do. I mean, if I were to go to your home and go on your TV, what kind of TV do you have? I don't know, Sean. Do you know what kind of TV I have? Okay. Isn't that sad that Sean has...

Do you have motion smoothing on? No, of course not. You say that. I don't. We use cinema mode. I don't even know if that's a good thing. Well, it's the best that we could do. I was following the instructions for something.

You followed the Tom Cruise thing? I did follow that video. And then we have some colleagues who made some recommendations so that you could see the dragons flying around or whatever in the dark. And we do follow all of that. I have filmmaker friends. I go to their house and they have motion smoothing. And they're like, oh. And I turn it off and they can't tell the difference.

Yeah. Like, what the fuck? I can certainly tell the difference. We're talking about Michael Bay? Did you go to Michael Bay's house? Yeah, oh. And I turn it off and they can't tell the difference. Yeah. I can. Like, what the fuck? I can certainly tell the difference. We're talking about Michael Bay? Did you go to Michael Bay's house? Exactly. The thing I'm unwilling to do because of just, I don't have that much space. So I, unlike Sean, can't fully live in like a darkness, like no natural light.

Is that the setup you have? It is, yes. Yeah. Wait, you have like a TV on a, is it TV or projector? I have a TV, 75 inch TV mounted on a wall with no what? No windows. There is a massive sliding glass door, but it is covered in black curtain. Got it.

And I don't have, my audio is not the best. I'm in a house that will not be the house that features my ultimate theater, my final theater. You will have a theater. I mean, God willing. I need to just have a lot more success as a podcaster, frankly. I just wish people cared more. I don't know if people care enough. If I can't even get people who are in the industry to turn off their motion smoothing or to even be able to tell the difference, which baffles me.

Because motion smoothing to me is like, I see it and it is the ugliest thing. It immediately hits me hard and I'm just like, how do you, how do you live like this? But most people do. I think that people increasingly are aware that what they're getting at home is at least visually not, does not look good. They're aware, but I don't think they care. But they don't. That's the point. There are some people who care,

and there are some people who don't. Okay, so when you're doing that, though, when you're finishing your film, do you feel that you're making all of those painstaking decisions for yourself, ultimately? It's partly myself but it's even when someone ends up watching it on youtube on an iphone um i think it matters i still think it matters i still think some of those choices the nuances of those choices are going to bleed through it's like when you when

you and like when we're talking about production design there are some things that i'm doing that are so subtle and again i think amanda will probably catch it oh i'm curious i'm nervous you know i'll test you after like five times before we talk to sam um but then i i think you feel it even if you're conscious not conscious of it does that make sense. So even when I do an elaborate Dolby Atmos surround sound, and then I'm going to remix it for stereo, I still think no matter how it comes out on the other end, it'll come through in some way. The feeling of it will come through.

I don't know. Do you feel excited to show the movie to people? Or would you be content if it was just in a glass jar and no one could ever touch it again? No, no. I want people to see it. I just don't want to know about it. I don't want to be content if it was just in a glass jar and no one could ever touch it again? No, no, no. I want people to see it. I just don't want to know about it. I don't want to be anywhere near it.

Every time like, you know, Homecoming premiered at TIFF, you know, Julia was there, the whole cast was there and, you know,

I have to do the red carpet thing and then I left. Went across the street at dinner and then just had a panic attack. So you have not heard

a single person tell you what they think of homecoming? Well, no. I thought it was good. No, no. Yeah, I was pro as well. Do you go back for like the end when everyone applauds?

No, I just go to the party afterwards. Okay. Does someone tell you what the atmosphere was like? Oh, yeah, yeah. Or are you like, no, don't tell me. Well, they tell me anyway

whether I ask them to or not. But they always tell me positive. I'm like, you're not going to come up Well, they tell me anyway, whether I ask them to or not. But they always tell me positive. I'm like, you're not going to come up to me and tell me that half the audience is asleep. They just don't do that. Because then after premiere, then the reviews drop. And do you read those? Oh, yes. Okay.

And by the way, I'm dubious of any filmmaker who says they don't read reviews. Okay. It's pretty weird. Do you feel that... They all do. Yeah. Do you feel that that's a healthy choice for you feel that... They all do. Yeah. Do you feel that that's a healthy choice for you? No.

No. Okay. And by the way, when I say I read the reviews, when I see the headline and it's a good review, I don't read that. I'm like, oh, relief, move on. And then if it's... Then I get to the bad review, I definitely read that. Oh, so you're seeking out the bad reviews. Yeah. Well, here's what I'm...

Exploring them. It's more like dodging bullets. I am dodging bullets. So like when I see a good headline, I'm like, okay, I've dodged a bullet. Okay. And I see another good, okay, I dodged one. Then I get hit. Then I got to read it.

Do you know not to read comments on reviews or the internet in general? Let me say something about this. I'm glad you brought this up. Oh my God. Sam, the only correct answer is yes. I know not to read the comments. Here's the thing. I was a nerd in high school, right?

So, and I was, I graduated high school in 95. So this was just around the time, you don't even know Netscape, right? Or do you, Amanda? Yeah, I know Netscape. Okay. Netscape, do you know Netscape? Do I know?

I don't think so. Mosaic, do you know Mosaic, Sean? This is like the browser that preceded netscape okay okay this is like real geek shit right i was like dialing into other do you know what bbss are no no i was dialing into other computers my friends computers and we had bbss and it was all this tech stuff so i was and then i went on chat rooms and all that stuff everyone's a fucking troll. Everyone's an asshole. Yeah.

And I never took it personally. It was like the reason why we did it was to fuck with people anonymously and all of that. So growing up, when it turned into social media, it turned into Twitter or it turned into the comment section, especially like on like Deadline or whatever. Clearly, I was like, I never took any of that seriously. I can read it and totally like yeah people shit on me all the time on twitter and it's weird because like to me i don't know if it's just because i grew up that way and like younger people like you or even people younger

than you who grew up after that they read those comments and it like hits them oh my god i know to not read the comments but i'll never forget when my dad called me after having read the comments on something that I published on a blog. And he was so concerned for me that I would be upset. And he was like, how could they post that? And I was like, I don't care. It's the comments, dad. Do you know anyone who comments on the internet? I don't.

Let's move on. But so there are a lot of people. Do you read the comments? No, of course not. No. No. It's sort of like pointless. And I find it just silly and funny, especially when they're being critical.

But you do seek out negative reviews. Yeah. And I'll tell you why. Because, and this is just me, you know, this is more about me than anything else, is that when I read it, when I see a good headline for a good review, like, I just feel like I got away with something. This is probably nothing new. A lot of filmmakers and artists in general feel this way. I just feel like I got away with something.

Okay, I was able to fool them, you know. When I read a negative review, I'm like, what did they catch? Like, of all the problems, because I see a lot of problems. I see the movie that are probably unfixable at this point but like what problem

did they find like what problem did they bust me on and so I'm curious and I don't know why again I should probably talk to my therapist about this

but like I'm surprised you haven't at this point these are all unhealthy choices do they stay with you or can you read because

oh no they stay okay they have paid torment I that? Because... Oh, no, they stay. Okay, they have paid tour menu. I remember their names. I was going to say, that sounds constructive of being like, we're going to...

Okay, there we go. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember their names. Oh, yeah. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is also true. I know this from

knowing filmmakers, that they all read them and that they all remember who wrote them. But, you know, in some ways, like... Okay, I'll give you an example. Matt Zoller Seitz, who I love. read them and that they all remember who wrote them but you know in some ways like okay i'll give you an example matt zoller sites who i love he's a great critic and he mostly does tv but he

does movies too he didn't was not a fan of robot and he was very critical of it and i loved his review even though it was negative and i i ended up reaching out to him we ended up being friends we almost did some a project together. So there was no ill will. I like film criticism. I like good film criticism, especially when it's thoughtful. And usually the negative ones

tend to be the ones where, for whatever reason, resonate with me because I'm also harboring all these secrets about why the movie isn't good that I'm just hoping no one notices. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, of course. Yeah. So they're confirming your worst fears. They're confirming, yes. Okay. And I'm like, motherfucker, you caught me. All right. You know?

I get it, yeah. It's like, what is it? Is it called the imposter syndrome? That's what it's called. Yes, of course. Like right now, I'm lamenting the reaction on Twitter from this podcast. Why? Because you have these great guests that come on.

Now you're just being that this is false. No, no. I'm being dead serious. Also, fuck them. Respectfully. Except for the Dobmob. No, no, no. I love you.

I mean, fuck the CR army. But I love the rest of it. Is that a provocative thing to say on this podcast? It could be for you. Yeah. That's why you use Signal. Come at me, CR army. No, I love the CR.

I love the CR. I love the CR. No, our listeners are very lovely and engaged. Very. Don't be self-conscious. You just told the time to make a movie.

I know, but like, guys, you had Quentin Tarantino on here. Yeah. You had Martin McDonough. I haven't listened to it yet,

but he was. You're in league. These are giants. These are giants. And they're so, like, you know, I try and listen.

I also listen to a lot of interviews because I try and, like, understand, whoa, God, they sound really smart. They really are dissecting. And they're like, and, like, Tarantino's, like, the best at it, right? Because he's also super entertaining about it. Yep. Do you know what I mean? Yep.

And except when he's mean to you. He was not mean to me. He was being Quentin Tarantino. He was actually operating in the spirit of the draft is what I would say which is that we tease each other. As I said,

this is a tough love podcast. Yes. By the way, are you guys doing anything different with the movie draft template format? You want us to change it? Yeah, you have notes? Everyone has notes on the draft.

I just, here's the one, I think I told you this last time. I don't love, I don't love that, that you guys put it out and then they just, here's the one, I think I told you this last time. I don't love, I don't love that you guys put it out and then they just, because the CR Army is just going to vote. It's just going to CR Army it. I am the all-time leader in victories. You are?

I am. So you have a, what is your group called? You don't have a name. They don't have a name. So the fantasy heads are going to- It's called America. Okay. The United States of America.

Cinephiles across the world. I just wish there was some... Some people with letterbox accounts. Couldn't you do this? Couldn't you... This is backwards, but you could publish the results without the names associated.

Yes. Have them vote on that, but then you'd have to release the pod after the fact. I do want to do that, and I think we will do that next year. I do also have a theory that there's a stark divide

between people who listen to the podcast and people who vote online. I thought you were going to say vote in elections. Guys, let's talk about the midterms. Do you want to go on JMO? Do you know about JMO? I'm going to be a guest on that. I would love for you to be the third chair.

Honestly, I think the only thing that could make that show better is if you joined it permanently. And Chris is on it, right? Yes. It's you and Chris and me. And midterms. And it's politics. And Recurso.

And to the tech industry, I think, will be a big focus. Oh, I love that. And military industrial complex. I think this is such a good idea. Finance and banks. This is getting better. Honestly, all… The more words you say about this…

There's so many things, though, in Robot that I know you are ready to unload on. Sean, let's do this. Riveting stuff right here. Okay, we'll call Chris after this. We should wrap up. We should. You've been very generous with your time. Do you have any closing thoughts on how to make a movie?

You walked us through basically the five stages. I don't know. Look, guys, I don't know if I know how to make a movie. I'm just doing my best here like everyone else. Okay. I hope people out there who want to make movies

actually enjoy production because I think that that's probably important. You swing wildly between a brash confidence and a deep insecurity. Do you know that? I relate to it.

Yeah. Don't we all? Isn't another theme of this podcast? We do. You and I do. Do I really? Yeah. Oh, interesting. Because you're like, I know I'm really it. Yeah. Don't we all? Isn't another theme of this podcast? We do. You and I do. Do I really? Yeah.

Oh, interesting. Because you're like, I know I'm really good at stuff, but I'm also terrified that I'm not good at anything. But isn't that just, oh, I see what you're saying. I just think it's good to know what you're good at and what you're not. I agree. Right? Sometimes I think I'm good at something and then I learn I'm not. And then sometimes I think I'm terrible at something and I'm told you're quite good at that.

Can I ask you both one question? Like what, I'm curious, because I brought this up a little bit. What movie are you anticipating the most for the rest of the year? Like just give me the number one. I know there's a bunch. There's Babylon Fableman's, right? Babylon Fableman's, Black Panther, Avatar 2. She Said.

Yeah, so as we're recording i'm i'm seeing she said tonight so what's what's the one i have really been anticipating she said since it was announced i don't know if you've read that book i think that book is really fascinating as a look into investigative journalism so that's that's your number one i'm a nerd. I'm also just a huge Carey Mulligan stan. I love her. She's great. Sean? Babylon. It's probably Babylon. Now, that being said, James Cameron,

Steven Spielberg, and Ryan Coogler who were like three of my 20 faves are putting movies out. So it's a tricky one. But Babylon is the one that I feel like

I know what to expect least. Yes. Nothing has been said about that movie. I don't really know what it is. I don't really know what it is. I don't know what the tone is. Did you like the trailer?

I am excited by the prospect of him doing something zanier. I felt like the only thing that was wrong with First Man was that it was too tight. And so him being like, fuck it, is exciting to me. Three hours and eight minutes is a lot.

Yeah. Come get your guy. That's a long film. But I think he's really, really in a very rare class of filmmaker. I'm excited for the rest of the year. We should also note that we've seen White Noise. I've seen White Noise.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I really like White Noise. That's not anticipated for us. Right, right, right. That would have been on our list before that. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen.

Okay. I'm going to name a couple because I did this AFI thing I told you about. Did you guys ever see F.W. Murnau's Sunrise? You've seen it.'m gonna name a couple because i did this afi thing i told you about did you guys ever see fw renault sunrise you've seen it yes have you please see it it is it's a silent film but it is so long film yeah is it long isn't it like two hours god it flew by it's amazing the performances are great the use of the title cards you know within the silent film format is so creative. A movie that slipped by me in the past that I fucking love, Bridge Over the River Choir.

You must have seen that, right? Yeah, I have. I mean, one of the best endings of all time. Incredible movie. And then on the BFI list, Carl Dreyer's Passion of Joan of Arc. Is that what it's called? That's it. The Passion of Joan of Arc. Did you see it?

I have, yeah. I have it. I didn't go to film school. You graduated from AFI. I didn't see these films. And they didn't show you Dryer or No, I've seen

No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen

No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen No, I've seen Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, I, like, these are, like, the important ones. This is why it was important for me to do this. But, man. Let me ask you one question about that.

Yes, tell me. So, my little sister Grace, who's been a guest of this show in the past, she's 19 she's in film school or she's not in she's she's uh attending college and is taking film classes she's going to she goes to rhode island and she's taking a theory class and a history class at the same time so we've been talking like every week and she's telling me about what she's seen and you, you know, she's watching Cabinet of Dr. Caligari and she's watching Sunrise. She's watching, you know, like the Russian films, you know, like, oh my God,

what's the film with the staircase? Battleship Potemkin, you know. And I don't want to put Thor under the bus, but she's like, these movies are fucking boring. And I was bored by some of them when I saw them in college. And then over time, you get context, you get a better understanding of why they matter.

Did you immediately connect to those films when you were in film school or a young cinephile? Or did you find yourself like evolving your appreciation for them as you started making things? I don't know. To me, I mean, when I was in film school, did you ever see Chimes at Midnight? Yeah, sure. Yeah.

I mean, that's like a four hour movie where orson welles the false staff yeah orson welles playing false stuff that should have been boring to me i weirdly loved self-indulgent films like that like i was super into it i did get bored by like ozu like i don't know are you a tokyo story fan uh yeah but i can not get through did you ever see this no that's actually greenwald that's his that's his guy oh my god i didn't do i mean i so to me i think it's just a taste thing it's like the the length never bore you know i know we're ending this but i have to talk about this because you were giving shit about runtime what was it was it house it House of Dragon? That's what it was. Yeah, every episode's

like 68 minutes. Yeah. Your favorite show is Succession, right? Yeah. Every episode, guess what, how long those episodes are.

One show is really well written and one is not. Are you still on an anti-Succession page? Here's what I'm going to say. It is not the runtime. It is, the show doesn't work for you.

You're right. And that's what I, because I really hate that stigma that like long long run times means it's gonna be that wasn't what i was asking about but i hear what you're saying it's not the run times it's more like silent film shown to a teenager is an interesting gambit in 2022 just as it was probably in 1972 but i i'm that's true i'm interested I think that's probably still true. Like, you know, like if you, you,

you know, especially right now, I just, but I, I know that you're right. About what? Historically and about, it's not the runtime.

That's not. And well, but I think there's a difference between TV and film in that respect, because the kind of, that the idea of an ending and a controlled amount of time for a story to happen. It's different between TV and film. Yeah, but you love three-hour movies. There are three-hour movies that you love. Of course. And that's what I'm saying. I think you're right that it's not always the runtime, but don't you think the runtime is often a consequence or at least indicative of someone

not making all the decisions that they're supposed to make and not having it together. Related question. Did you know how Robot was going to end when you started it? Yes. But that's the difference. You always do this and you did the same thing with your other work and most TV shows don't have that. Yeah, but that doesn't ruin your relation. That doesn't ruin your affinity for succession which I'm most certainly probably doesn't have an end point that's not the point

I'm not so sure about that I feel like that he has imagined a world in which he knows you think he knows the end because it feels like

it's more about the characters in the world and less about this one narrative that's running through multiple seasons we're definitely

on Chris and Andy's corner with this conversation but this past season of the show which I liked quite a bit felt like the first time where they pulled a punch

on what the show should be because it's such a success now. But that's a whole other conversation. I'm just saying, when you're watching a movie and you're enjoying yourself, we just talked about this. In Glorious Bastards,

we fucking love, right? That's a very long movie. And there's a long sequence in that movie, a 30-minute scene in the middle of that movie in one set in a bar people talking playing games that is fucking riveting and on the edge of your one of the all-time so just stop with the arbitrary runtime it has nothing to do with anything well amanda sometimes it does and i i'm staring down a lot of films this at the end of this year that are

three hours plus and a lot of them from like master filmmakers and i don't know i i think that you are right that a great three-hour movie needs all of its time but sometimes you have to make choices sometimes sometimes you didn't like the good nurse that was a tight 90 minutes you didn't like it tight is a word that i would not use but okay so you felt it was slow even better even more in the first 10 minutes i knew exactly where the film was going and then you felt like it dragged the rest of the way and that's 90 minutes this is my point like you're you can look at right you're you're right let's let go because what we're talking about is quality.

Chris and I got to do this whole spiel with Chris and Andy too because they keep harping on run times. And I'm like, guys, your favorite show is 60 minutes plus every week. Right. Your favorite movies are almost three hours long. I mean, we've just. Well, not all of them, but. A lot of your favorites. Sure, but.

Titanic is quite long. Oh, and that's your. You love Titanic. I do love Titanic, though, you know, not as much as all of the rom-coms that I love that are under two hours. But I hear, I see what you're saying, Sam, and it's correct. It's correct. But they're also. That's the operative word here.

There's just a lot of not that talented people who are going to use it as an excuse to make me sit somewhere for three and a half hours watching Marvel bullshit which you and i were talking about and i resent that it's true and you know that and that's where i'm saying like okay you can get self-indulgent in a bad way but but um you know pta one of our favorite one of the best filmmakers um he talked about run he's he puts himself he wanted to be two hours he puts the pressure to cut and i think that's a great attitude to have as a filmmaker you know but some of his movies are not they're long you know but they're fucking great so who cares i do think filmmakers need to put the pressure on themselves to be as concise that's all i'm saying what's the runtime on your film what is it it's it's it's not that long it's a little over two great okay good for you

is that okay that's wonderful okay thank you guys so you did what you were suggesting thanks for approving my runtime we can't wait to approve your movie

thank you Sam thanks for being here thanks for extending yourself it's so lovely to see you opening your heart talking about the depth of your work so amazing

please invite me to a movie draft okay okay well who's the fifth? Well, so CR is the fourth. Yeah. You can pick the fifth if you want.

Okay. I think it's got to be Greenwald. Yeah, I think so. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. I think we got to do that. He's never done one. Oh, man.

He's never done one. I think that's got to happen. Okay. I'm ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's make it happen. Okay. Thank you, Sam Esmail.

Thanks, guys.