The Big Picture - 'Hustlers' Is Undeniable and So Is Jennifer Lopez, Oscar Contender | The Big Picture

Episode Date: September 13, 2019

With the release of 'Hustlers,' a stripper-criminal saga, Sean and Amanda take a close look at the movie career and unusually persistent superstardom of Jennifer Lopez, who has received the best reviews of her career for the film (1:04). Then, Sean is joined by 'Hustlers' writer-director Lorene Scafaria to talk about how she translated a New York magazine feature story into one of the year's most exciting movies (46:56). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Lorene Scafaria Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons from The Ringer. Wanted to tell you about our newest podcast that is exclusive to Spotify. It is called The Hottest Take. These are short podcasts. These are going to be like seven to nine minutes, multiple times per week. It's one take.

Sweet potatoes are bullshit. You're going to get takes like that. You're going to get takes about sports. If Cliff Kingsbury looked like Brad Childress, he would never work again. Pop culture, you're going to hear from me Home Alone, is that a Christmas movie? Ludicrous

This is an interesting take Because the name of the show is the hottest thing Not the worst take You're going to hear from Ryan Rosillo Mallory Rubin Jason Concepcion Chris Ryan Sean Fennessey

Shea Serrano My buddy House And many more Ringer staffers And friends of the Ringer family, some celebrities. It's going to be exclusive on Spotify multiple times per week coming September 16th from the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Sean Fennessey. And I'm Amanda Fennessy.

And I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Hustlers. And boy, Hustlers is upon us. The new film from Laureen Scafaria. I have an interview coming with Laureen later in the show. But first, Amanda and I are here to celebrate really one of our great pop cultural icons. And a person who is now officially, I believe, an Oscar contender.

And that person is Jennifer Lopez. Amanda, what do you make of the Jennifer Lopez-a-sans or did she ever leave? She definitely, well, she didn't leave, but this is a classic Oscar comeback. And I think part of the reason that she is an Oscar contender, in addition to Hustlers itself,

which everyone is loving and which she is apparently Oscar contender, in addition to Hustlers itself, which everyone is loving and which she is apparently very good in, is that she's had an up and down career. She's been very much in the spotlight. She's done some tremendous things. She's done some things that we would all like to forget, certainly Jennifer Lopez. And now she is back. And this seems like such a classic, let us reward what Jennifer Lopez has meant to us for more than 20 years now. On the 6th was 20 years ago, 1999. Extraordinary. And, you know, the first time a young me probably saw her is almost 30 years ago. I mean, we're looking at 27, 28 years ago when she was just a fly girl on In Living Color, you know, dancing her heart out. And it's been a fascinating career. You know, we'll talk a lot more about Hustlers. Obviously, I'll speak to Laureen about

her process making the film later in the show. And then on Monday's show, we'll dive a little deeper into the story of the movie, which it certainly sounds like a lot of people are going to see this weekend, which is truly exciting because it's a really fun movie. But we're going to look more closely in a career arc sense at J-Lo, the woman, the myth, the legend. And the way that we like to do the show is in sort of four parts. And the first part, of course, is breakthrough moment. Now, J-Lo is so interesting for breakthrough moment because I think for different kinds of people, there are different kinds of breakthroughs. Amanda, for you, what is your signal moment for Jennifer Lopez? So I get to do personal breakthrough. Yeah. In addition to the objective breakthrough. Okay, let's do both. Yeah, let's do all of them. So I was thinking, my personal J-Lo breakthrough was the video, If You Had My Love. Which played non-stop on TRL in 1999. What year was that? Oh, 1999. Okay.

Yeah. So this is after she has emerged as a film star, as a dancer, etc. Yes, but, you know, I was 14 and did not see Out of Sight in theaters. So for me, J-Lo is suddenly on MTV, honestly, like 10 times an afternoon. And that summer, I have seen the If You Had My Love video so many times. So I recently watched it. It's really screwed up. It's like just about she is within the video machine and there is a guy who

is watching her on like eight different security cameras. And it's a really voyeuristic experience. And I was uncomfortable. Plays differently now. But that is certainly my personal moment with her. I think if you're going for objective moments, there are a few. There's obviously Fly Girl. There is obviously Selena. Someone found the letter you wrote me on the radio. But my soul ran out of sound on the earth on the radio. Which we should talk more about. We certainly will. And there is the green dress.

Okay, tell me this. What did you think of the green dress? My first impression was, I was like, oh my God. Now, I mean, you know, you're a mother. You're a mother. And as a, you know, I don't know. I'm kind of shy. And, um.

Actually, my dad was the one who was like, why didn't you wear something else that was more comfortable? Yeah. I was like, because I like that dress, daddy. Yeah. Because I didn't understand people. Come on. You didn't understand what the deal was. I swear to you. You know was? I swear to you. You know what?

I swear to you. There were two big deals. You know what? Oh, you know, I hadn't even thought of the green dress as we prepared for this. I think in a lot of ways the green dress is like the moment. I don't even think it's apocryphal. I think Google has confirmed that Google image was created because so many people were Googling Jennifer Lopez green dress, trying to find a picture of it, that they were like, maybe we should have a tool in order to service this.

This is extraordinary. I've just Googled the green dress. Yeah. And the first return, of course, is green dress, green Versace dress of Jennifer Lopez from Wikipedia. And when you pull it up, you get a number of photos of J-Lo's dress and even a sort of like that right side box that has all the descriptions and the connected links. And it says the American recording artist and actress Jennifer Lopez wore an exotic green Versace silk chiffon dress to the 42nd Grammy Awards ceremony on February 23rd, 2000, which is of course, you know, essentially in celebration of the song and

the album and the video that you're referring to. Man, is this a more significant event than any movie or song she's been a part of? Is it such an interesting part of this conversation? I think it is. On Ring or Dish, we would argue in terms of the number of people who are familiar with that dress and the amount of eyeballs that it captured. Truly. Truly, in the literal sense, but also it now has its own Wikipedia page. It had technological implications. It had fashion implications.

It had celebrity implications, movie implications, music implications. It's an interesting thing. Maybe we don't have to, we can come back to that one a little bit because my personal pinnacle, or excuse me, my personal breakthrough is probably just the year of 1997 so 1997 for jay low is it's after she's a fly girl it's after money train which is the i guess crime caper movie that she appeared in with woody harrelson and wesley snipes which was kind of her burst first big supporting role and it's before megastardom and it's before out of sight but in 1997 she's in four films and they're all completely different and they're all fascinating she's of course the star of selena yes and gives a great performance you know selena was screened in my high school

in spanish class really isn't that strange that was the first time i saw it it makes a lot of sense like that that movie was a response to just a huge event. Completely. And, and it's kind of amazing that that movie was made and made in the way that it was. And I haven't, I haven't looked at it in a long time. I rewatched it last night. And how did it go for you? With all respect to the memory of Selena, who is just extremely talented and important, movie itself is like maybe the most like hagiographic biopic that I have ever seen, and I say that as someone who loves a good old-fashioned biopic. But Jennifer Lopez is astonishing in it, and I'd like to talk more about her performance later. Okay, she's a total movie star in Selena. That's probably the best remembered of her films.

She appears in this movie called Blood and Wine, which was a Jack Nicholson, Bob Rafelson-directed kind of steamy thriller that I remember at the time being a pretty good movie and a little bit of a comeback for Bob Rafelson who made Five Easy Pieces and a number of classic films in the 70s a long time pal of Nicholson's

and she plays kind of the femme fatale which is a role that she gets cast in a lot in this period and what Hollywood knows and doesn't know about Jennifer Lopez

is kind of one of the interesting questions about this this career that she's having. Then she's also in Anaconda. Yeah. Which is, of course, an all-time great good bad movie. Or bad good movie, depending on your definition of the thing. You know, I think she's perfectly credible as a woman fighting a giant snake. Yeah, she has to wear a really unfortunate

khaki vest. Yeah, yeah, not the most flattering thing in the world. And then the fourth film is U-Turn. So in this year,

she's already worked with Bob Rafelson, Oliver Stone on U-Turn, and a giant snake. Sure. Which is just amazing stuff. U-Turn, of course,

you know, complicated movie. I re-watched that last night. You re-watched Selena. It says a lot about us that that's what we movie. I rewatched that last night. You rewatched Selena. It says a lot about us that that's what we chose. You can't say I would recommend it in the same way that you might not recommend Selena. It's just, it's an attempt to blow up the noir fiction storytelling style. And it's got a great cast and it's got a lot of personal style. But Jennifer Lopez's character is really like in the most retrograde woman manipulating

every man in the movie kind of part. It doesn't work that well. But 1997, to have that many roles signals an arrival, and it's probably no mistake that the movie that comes right after that the following year is going to be an important part of this podcast. Is there anything else you want to say about Selena while we're at it? Well, rewatching it last night, I was just struck by the fact that Selena is pre-Jennifer Lopez's pop career. And we're so used to seeing pop stars go to the movies and try to conquer a second medium. singers or borrowing their first pop star persona and borrowing that stage presence and that image and everything you associate with like, you know, Madonna or Lady Gaga is present on the screen. And Jennifer Lopez doesn't have anything to borrow from in Selena. I mean, she's borrowing from the real life Selena, but she is just a megastar instantly on stage.

And she's so comfortable. The musical numbers are that obvious highlight of that movie. I will admit to just fast forwarding through them at some point last night. I was just like, I would like to see Jennifer Lopez perform again. But it's hard to create that kind of both screen presence and stage presence. It doesn't come naturally to a lot of people, and she is so instantly comfortable. It's amazing.

One thing that I've been thinking about as I reflect on Hustlers a little bit, and I had never really thought of her this way, and shame on me for not thinking of her, but she's actually in this great lineage of Hollywood mega-celebrities, of kind of glamour queens, who are multi-talented.

She's in the lineage of Judy Garland and of Barbra Streisand, of people who want to conquer everything. Now, obviously, we know, and I'm sure we'll talk about later in the show, she's also attempting to conquer social media and clothing and fragrances and jewelry and style. And she is taking on everything. And that's one of the reasons why I think we've kind of forgotten what an effective actor that she can be but that that is something I don't want to lose sight of while we're talking about this is what makes her a good movie presence in

your mind there is a physicality to her that I was thinking a lot about and I don't you know obviously she's incredibly beautiful and her like as we discussed on the green dress, her physical body is like a real marvel, and she does use that in her performances. Allow me to say she is the hottest. She's like the hottest person alive and has been for 30 years. Right. And she's a trained dancer, and so she tangos with basically everyone in all of her movies. I watched her dancing with Jack Nicholson in Blood and Wine last night. And I also watched part of Shall We Dance, which the less we talk about, the better. But I haven't seen it.

You know, there is obviously they want to use the skills that she has. But there is also something she's not a close up actress always, in my opinion, or that's not her most effective scenes it's when you can see her moving in the world and reacting and like actually using her physical presence um in everything from selena to even like out of sight i also re-watched the the bar scene and then the sex scene from out of sight last night and you, obviously she's using her body in a certain way. But when they're when they are both kind of undressing one by one, it's like that she's she's a little awkward. It's not awkward, but there is like vulnerability in it. It's I mean, she just looks really good. And you want to see Jennifer Lopez undress. And this is part of it. But it's when you can see her like moving and in the world and when she gets to do stuff is when I think that she

is like physically do stuff is when I think she's the best I agree with you she's obviously in some respects incredibly overpowering and in some ways distracting I think for a person like me to watch her on screen but also one thing that I really like about her and I have to assume that you and I are both going to lean into out of sight as as our personal pinnacles. Oh, yeah. I mean, movie-wise, absolutely. Movie-wise, certainly. And one of the things in Out of Sight that I really appreciate and that Hustlers gets at a little bit, though, I don't think that they're necessarily comparable performances,

but you're going to hear a lot of people say this is the best she's been since Out of Sight, is she's very witty. If you watch her on talk shows, she's pretty clever. She has this kind of, she has, you know, the New York woman. There's like a sassiness. There's a kind of I'm one step ahead of you quality. The same thing that a lot of beautiful women also have this too,

where they're used to getting game kicked at them all the time by annoying guys, and they know how to be way out in front of those guys. And her character in Out of Sight is the same way with George Clooney's character. I like your hair. I like your outfit. But actually, this is my second favorite outfit. I had a first favorite, but it got ruined and I had to get rid of it. You did. It smelled.

Really? Having it clean didn't help? No. She's always kind of one step ahead of him, and she's always reading him correctly. And even that first moment when they meet in the trunk and they they're you know it's simultaneously sexy and antagonistic and even when she's sitting with her father and talking about you know her relationships and the Michael Keaton character she's got a kind of a slyness a cleverness to her that not every kind of like quote-unquote bombshell actress has you know she's not an object she's a person who is often, though not always, in control. And I really like that about her as an actor.

She's funnier than a lot of movies give her credit for. And she tried to tap into that with the rom-com phase, which we'll have to talk about because I have seen all of those many times. And I don't think that they used her in the way that they could have, but she does have that 40s like not quite screwball because she is in control but there is she's funny she knows

what's going on and she's using she's using her humor and and like even the little gestures and the eye rolls and kind of and that's by some of that physicality that I was talking about is that she really is showing you um in every sense of the world what she thinks of you. Yeah, she's a little bit Barbara Stanwyck. You know, she's in control and she's good with a sharp line. It's funny, one thing I watched last night as I was rolling through the YouTube clips of her on the internet was a somewhat recent interview she did with Seth Meyers. And in this interview, Seth Meyers mentions to her that Sir Mix-a-Lot came forward and said that Baby Got Back

was inspired directly by Jenna. Absolutely. This was really exciting news in November. Sir Mix-a-Lot, Baby's Got Back. Do you know what I'm telling? Do you know what I'm about to say? Yes. He said, this is so exciting,

he said, you inspired, baby got back. That's like... But still. I don't know. Like, I feel like we spent all these years trying to figure out who Carly Simon was thinking about and who you're so vain. And then this whole time, it was like, nobody ever, like, I didn't think...

Why didn't anybody ask? Also, I didn't think of Sir Mix-a-Lot. I never thought of him being inspired by a muse. To write a rap. Right, yeah. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah, no, no, it was flattering, I didn't think of Sir Mix-a-Lot. I never thought of him being inspired by a muse. To write a rap, right. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah, no, no.

It was flattering, I guess. Yeah. And, you know, usually when a famous person goes on a talk show, there's a lot of pre-production that goes into what's going to happen in the interview. Now, I don't know how much pre-production goes into Seth Meyers' interviews, but when Seth Meyers asked her about this, you could see that she was not psyched. Yeah. She wasn't super excited about being talked about as an object, but she's not rude and she doesn't dismiss him and she doesn't shut it off. But she does do exactly what you're

talking about, which is she kind of like her eyes float to the left side of her body and she looks away and she sort of dismisses the nature of the question very casually and not in a way that would offend Seth Meyers right and she's the kind of person who is in complete control of her face of her body of everything you know what I mean she has that thing that not every not every beautiful actor or actress has where sometimes it's just like if you just look deeply into the camera. Exactly. Right.

She's not Claire Foy. She's not Meryl Streep. You need to see the whole frame. Exactly. So what else about out of sight? I mean, I feel like we've talked about out of sight five times on this podcast because these people keep having great years, you know. It's only George Clooney who hasn't really come back in a meaningful way in out of sight. It's true. love scene you know um but i an interesting thing about that is that everything you said she is um witty and in control and is playing like a figure of authority and is supposed to be a um

which is a great foil to george clooney but i think what's most interesting about that performance is actually like the softness and the like kind of um it's a slightly more reserved jennifer lawrence i'm sorry jennifer lopez performance freudian slip there's no such thing as a reserved jennifer really really true um she's not swinging for the fences with every single line and you know it is that vulnerability and i think part of the the movie is that she and george cluny are two super charming people who are allowed to be actually themselves for a moment with each other. But it's interesting going from Selena to out of sight. It's like Selena is just like the bright lights.

Jennifer Lopez is on. And I was impressed. One of the challenging things about talking about her career as an actor is that she just hasn't made a lot of good movies. And she's made a lot of movies. And I think she's made basically one movie for every year she's been an active actress since 1996, 1997. And so we're looking at 30 years of films. But let's try to figure out why. Because in those early stages of her career, she's obviously leaning into great filmmakers or like big kind of tentpole films.

That's why she's making Anaconda. But, you know, Soderbergh, Oliver Stone, Bob Rafelson. You know, she makes a movie called The Cell, which is the most like 101 I'm in high school and I like cinematography movies ever made. You know, it's just such a, it's a beautiful movie and it makes no sense and it's so self-indulgent and kind of stupid. Now I know another little boy

with a horse. His name's Edward. And the boy, not the horse. And she doesn't really have enough to do in it. Yeah, that's the thing. It's available on Netflix now, so you can watch part of it.

Oh, I didn't know that. Which I did, and then I was like, there's no point in me watching this for the purposes of a Jennifer Lopez podcast. Can I tell you a personal fact? Please. So I got a DVD player before I went to college. Okay. Obviously, DVD players have been incredibly meaningful to me in the last 20 years. So in 1999, I get a DVD player and I got two DVDs with it. The first DVD is The Matrix. I think I might've even mentioned that on a podcast. The second DVD was The Cell. Was it really? Yeah. And so I've seen The Cell a lot, even though it's just not very good.

Did someone pick that out for you or? I think it was my now wife. Oh my God. That's incredible. I think. I'll have to fact check that one. But, you know, so I'm very familiar with this movie. And it has like none of the essence of Jennifer Lopez in it. It has all of the essence of a filmmaker jerking off a lot, really. I don't know what else to say about it. But, you know, that was kind of a signal of somebody not knowing how to use the charm that we just saw in Out of Sight.

Or that we saw in Selena. Or that we saw even in a movie like Money Train, which is her as a sort of a regular, relatable person who has extraordinary gifts. And Karen Sisko is that kind of person. She's a great FBI agent. And also she's Jennifer Lopez. What about some other less successful films even than The Cell? Should we talk about The Wedding Planner or Made in Manhattan? So I've not seen either of these films. That's crazy to me. These are perfect examples of the rare movies that are commercially released that I'm like, yeah, I don't have to see that.

I guess especially in 2001 and 2002. You're in college. There's literally no reason for you to go see The Wedding Planner. Imagine me alone in Ithaca, New York, going to see The Wedding Planner. I mean, here's the thing is that you would do that now. I would. I would. And so it's fine. No, but in the same way that I had never seen this, I did not see the cell in high school at all. I did see The Matrix, but only because a boy made me.

This is why we've teamed up on this podcast. No, I know. The Wedding Planner in particular is a movie I've seen many times, but all when I was young. And I have to tell you, it is not a good romantic comedy. What's the premise? The premise is that Jennifer Lopez is a wedding planner. Is she unlucky in love? But she's unlucky in love can't believe it yeah shocking

and so she the actual setup of the movie is that she has a meet cute with matthew mcconaughey who it's set in san francisco so she's stuck her heel is stuck in a um a drain one of those street drains you know like the great sure and he and like a dumpster is coming down one of the steep San Francisco hills. I don't know. I didn't write this movie. And Matthew McConaughey saves her from the dumpster. Wow. Sounds like, did Michael Bay direct this film? And then they share like a romantic dance and then they go on their ways. This is all like early in the movie. And then it turns out that Jennifer Lopez is hired to plan Matthew McConaughey's wedding to someone turns out that Jennifer Lopez is hired to plan Matthew

McConaughey's wedding to someone who is not Jennifer Lopez is it a famous person or just a uh you would recognize her but I can't sorry what is her name her name is oh yeah because she married Pete Sampras Brigitte Wilson Sampras oh yeah sure I remember her star of Billy Madison yes huge fan and there's a whole side thing with Jennifer Lopez not being able to find a husband and then her parents setting her up. I believe that she is playing an Italian-American in this movie. Okay. Which is something that they asked Jennifer Lopez to do from time to time. It's another tricky part of it.

Yes. You know, Jennifer Lopez as a famous person and as a pop star, has always been very Boricua forward. You know, she's always been very proud of her Latina heritage. And obviously, if you just look at her, if you see her name, there's nothing confusing about it. But one of the things that Hollywood has long not understood how to do is how to lean into someone's genuine identity. And it's funny because I could sense her. And one of the reasons maybe I wasn't as interested in these movies that you're talking about is they just did not feel terribly authentic to the person that she was that we came to fall in love with. If her big first role is as Selena, maybe we understand who Jennifer Lopez is as a person. And maybe she's not Mexican,

but that doesn't mean that she's uncomfortable in that kind of a role whereas her playing an Italian wedding planner is just kind of a weird choice why not just make her Jennifer Lopez as a wedding planner I I have no idea I mean they it's they try to use it as like some old world you need to marry this person it doesn't make any sense and here's the thing is that romantic comedies, particularly romantic comedies made from like 1989 until whatever the modern era, like terrible setups, lots of problems, lots of political incorrectness and things that we would just all like to take back. But in addition to that, it's just bad as a romantic comedy. Jennifer Lopez and Matthew McConaughey do not have chemistry, which and Jennifer Lopez does not get to be Jennifer Lopez in any way. There is no charisma. She's really buttoned up and she's not funny.

We were talking a lot about her kind of old school comedy, which this is literally the genre in which you would deploy that. And there is none of it. It's really confusing. And I and I don't I don't understand that. Again, the rom-coms of like 2000, 2001, this was a low era, but they're not very good. But you should be able to get some sort of chemistry or something out of Jennifer Lopez and Matthew McConaughey. I'm not sure also if she is a quote-unquote comic actress. I think she's pretty funny. Yeah.

But I don't think that she should be in pure comedy. That's also a little bit of a trickiness because essentially what happens to her during this period, which is so fascinating and such a test case for what can happen in modern stardom, is the cell, the wedding planner, and then she makes two movies, Angel Eyes

and Enough, which are both kind of intense thrillers slash crime movies. Then she makes Made in Manhattan, which I assume you think is also not good. No, Shea Serrano and I did a, wrote a, co-wrote a piece together. It must be like a couple of years ago now, but it was about, would this get made today? And it was just about Made in Manhattan and all of the, the tough stuff and the tough assumptions in Made in Manhattan. I tough assumptions in Maid in Manhattan.

I assume she plays a maid in Manhattan. Yeah. And then Ralph Fiennes plays a politician who falls for her but doesn't know that she's a maid. And so then she has to, you know, she's doing like the upstairs and the downstairs. And there are some, you know, racist characters just because you have to have racist characters. One of the craziest things about this movie is it was directed by Wayne Wang, who made like Chan is Missing and the Joy Luck Club and Smoke, Blue in the Face. Really one of the great sort of forgotten indie icons of the 80s and 90s in movies. And this is a really odd commercial pivot to something that always struck me as really bland.

Yes. And so basically what you get in this period is you get a kind of crime thriller or romantic comedy. And then the movie that comes after those films is called Gigli. Oh, boy. Now, I didn't rewatch Gigli. It's actually a little hard to find Gigli for reasons that are probably not surprising. For anybody who is, I don don't know born after 1995 you might not realize that this was considered the biggest disaster in movie history when it came

out it's not that it's not the biggest disaster in movie history it's bad one of the reasons is because it pairs two of the 10 most famous people in the country at the time who happen to be dating as the stars they of course are j JLo and Ben Affleck. Gigli made $7.2 million against a $75.6 million budget. See, that's just fascinating to me because now it would make millions of dollars because you can't understand how famous these two people were in 2002 and 2003 and how much attention was on them. It is astonishing even now to look back at it. There is a Us Weekly has a roundup of all the covers it did about Jennifer Lopez over the past 20 years. And it is just every week just insane, insane coverage.

And they leaned into it. I mean, I didn't pick Jenny on the Block video for my personal pinnacle, but I think that one is really important. They were making videos and art about their coupledom. They basically created the idea of a modern celebrity couple that we're all obsessed with and invest with. And it's hilarious to me that then no one wanted to go see the movie. Were they broken up by the time it came out? They might have been. I can't remember the exact timeline.

They were on and off because he, you know, was dallying with, I can't remember whether they were flight attendants or strippers or whatever. Support Ben Affleck. One of my favorite movie stars. I also do support Ben Affleck. And I think we talked about, we did a career arc about him and we talked about this timeline in the same way. In any case, it's not clear they were on and off. I think they weren't officially, officially done until 2004. Yeah. Yes. 2004, according to Us Weekly. So Jenny from the Block is 2002. And they're sort of, I think they're in the process of making this movie during the making of that video. You know, great video.

It's pretty self-aware. It's ridiculous, obviously. It's over the top, but it's also kind of satire. You know, there's something very knowing. And I've always felt this about Affleck as an actor too. He can't get out of his own way in terms of wanting to be the biggest thing in the world,

but also he knows how ridiculous it is to try to be the biggest thing in the world. I love famous people like that. And I think J-Lo has a little bit of that in her too. And you see that even in the relationship that she's in now and the way that she platforms her love. I would say that this relationship has the awareness and has learned the lessons of Bennifer. I don't know that Jenny on the Block in the moment was quite as self-aware as we, you and I as fans of both of them wanted it to be.

I may just be a little more vulnerable to their charms. I think you just also have to remember that in like 2002, we were quote like post-irony and there was no, it was still just being shown on MTV that there was just, it was the monoculture still existed. And it was being really shoved down your throat. Yeah, and it's also notable, I think, that this was after she had come out of a relationship with Puff Daddy. And there was obviously a criminal incident that she was a part of when Shine fired a gun inside of a club.

And she was at the center of a kind of a controversy. And on the one hand, I think Diddy and Ben Affleck have a lot in common, but they also have a lot of things not in common. And so her hopscotching from famous Bo to famous Bo also had that a very similar kind of like Judy Garland, Barbara Streisand kind of affect, you know, is she was always somehow bigger than the person she was with, even if maybe she wasn't as respected or she wasn't doing the thing that people thought she should have been doing. A couple of things about Gigli, though. Gigli is directed by Martin Brest. So Martin Brest made 48 Hours of Midnight Run.

So he knows what he's doing with a crime thriller that has a lot of comedy in it. It also features Al Pacino. And, you know, not for nothing, but the cinematographer of this movie is Robert Elswit, who made Boogie Nights and Magnolia and Michael Clayton and There Will Be Blood. This is like one of the grandmasters.

And he spent a year of his life making fucking Gigli. And no one went to see it, which I still don't understand because there are so many points of interest for two of the most famous people in the world. And this was when people still went to see movies. Did someone actively torpedo it? Did you see it? I don't think so. Not in theaters. Tell us the story. But I was in college. You know, I didn't do anything. I was in the woods in New Hampshire. The next year, we get a little movie called Jersey Girl. I've mentioned in the past my relationship to Kevin Smith's movies, which, you know, I can't deny it. I was a big fan. I was very invested. Jersey Girl was this super self-conscious attempt to become a more commercial filmmaker for him. Now, it has a couple of nice things in it. This

is also a case of a guy using a legendary cinematographer on a weird, bad dramedy, Vilmer Sigismund, who is like one of the foremost 70s artists. Cinematographers need to get paid too, okay? They do. They do. I hope Vilmer's got a great paycheck on Jersey Girl, which also stars Ben Affleck. And, you know, Jennifer Lopez does not have a huge role in this movie. I think she plays the wife who dies early on in the film. Yeah, she dies early. But that is quite a one-two punch of going Gigli, Jersey Girl. And I think it pretty radically changes her career. Yes.

Because everything that comes after that, there's a couple of bigger films, particularly the next two. You mentioned Shall We Dance, which I have not seen. She's a dance instructor. And so there's a lot of dancing, but it's kind of like a ballroom,

strictly ballroom situation, but not campy or knowing. I don't know. It's not for me. I have a little bit of a problem with movies that movie titles that end in question marks. Okay. What are some other examples of that? Dude, Where's My Car? Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? Okay. What's Up's up doc i like what's up doc yeah that's pretty good um i guess what about bob that's not bad okay uh are we there yet is it's the fact that they have a question mark that's bugging you well it's like just tell me the answer you know what are we doing i gotta go see the movie to get the answer to your question dude where's your car tell me um everything after shall we Dance is pretty dark.

I mean, it's tough. She also, the Affleck thing ends. She pretty quickly marries Marc Anthony. She has kids at some point during this, and I think she had twins and takes some time to do that. But I think she also really does the Bennifer situation, celebrity-wise was so intense and then Gigli and Jersey

Girl and Shall We Dance or, you know, that run is not so well received that she does retreat a bit. Yeah, and I mean, a lot of these films I think people won't even really recognize. There's a movie called Border Town, which obviously was not very well seen. El Cantante, which I think was a Hector LeBeau biopic

starring Marc Anthony and Jennifer Lopez, not very well seen. The Backup Plan, you know, what to expect when you're expecting. Parker. These are movies that are just long forgotten and they only came out seven, eight, five, three years ago. And I kind of feel like we have had a 10-year absence of J-Lo as a credible and exciting movie star. And that's one of the reasons why Hustlers is going to emerge in that comeback campaign that you were describing earlier in the show.

I guess, is there anything sad about that? Did we lose her in her 40s? And now we've got to say J-Lo's 50, which... Is astonishing. Listeners, when you see Hustlers,

you're going to be like, what the fuck? That this person is 50 years old. God bless. It's really impressive. I mean, you know, it is sad that you don't like to see someone that you like doing iffy things. She has had a lot of other irons in the fire. We kind of skipped over American Idol.

We did. Which is not a movie by any stretch of the imagination, but which made her a lot of money and kept her in the public consciousness, probably in a more profitable and successful long-term way than like being in a cool indie movie that you and I like might. And you also love American Idol. So who am I to? I do, although that is essentially when American Idol starts to dip. Now, I will say she's in contention for the best ever American Idol judges. She was extraordinarily good, especially in that first run in 2011.

She had that perfect combination of encouraging and critical. And no one understands the mechanics of stardom better than someone like her. Right. So she was so good at that show. And it's so funny to think about Paula Abdul and Randy Jackson and Simon Cowell being the original trio criticizing people because someone like J-Lo knows so much more than any of those people about how to be good at that job. Yes. Even if she's not the world's greatest singer, which she's not. Right. I thought she was a good American Idol judge. Right. And she's been the star of a tv show called shades of blue for the last few years well i think what you said that she understands the mechanics of stardom is exactly right and

jayla was probably not the best at any one thing aside from being like astonishingly beautiful i mean but she is she is a very good dancer. She is like not the number. She's not Beyonce, which no one is, but she's a good singer, not the greatest. She's a fantastic actress. But not Meryl Streep. She's not Meryl Streep, though, you know, no one is. But she knows how to be a star. She has created the idea of Jennifer Lopez. And I think in a lot of ways she understood earlier than most everyone else now that being really successful and having a career is not tied to being in movies or even being on TV, but it is having a fashion line and being on American Idol and having three other businesses and diversifying in the way that you see everyone from Beyonce to Rihanna to Lady Gaga to all of these people now. They have to do it all. And she kind of knew that before everyone else. Now is the time for you to help us understand A-Rod and Jennifer Lopez. It's so good. It is unbelievable what they're doing. There's a whole podcast feed about this called Ring or

Dish. We talk about it all the time. We have done several episodes, but I really do think that she figured out what went wrong with being a public couple with Ben Affleck and has managed to apply those lessons. And they are, I hope they love each other. By all indications, they do. But in terms of performing what it is to be a celebrity couple, there's no one better right now in terms of knowing what people like to see, knowing what kind of content to give. I sent you the video that Alex Rodriguez made celebrating Jennifer Lopez's birthday. And I asked you to watch the whole thing. Did you watch it? I didn't. It's 10 minutes long.

Did you watch any of it? I did watch some of it. Did you watch? Okay. Life is so short. I have so many bad movies to watch. Yeah, but it's 10 minutes and it can tell you more than half the movies on this list. Break it down for us.

Okay. Well, Jennifer Lopez turned 50 and both A-Rod and J-Lo are Leos, just like you and me, Sean. Oh, wow. Yeah. But their birthdays are very close to each other. I think A-Rod had, like, you know, a private birthday party for, I'm sure it was like 150 people, whatever. But he didn't make, like, a huge deal out of it. And it was, like, J-Lo month.

And all of it was extremely forward-facing. Like, they had a giant party at Gloria Estefan's house. And then Alex Rodriguez... What? That sounds fake. At Jennifer's... Gloria Estefan's house? I believe so, yes. Iconic shit.

Okay. And then... I believe it's because they own a private island off Miami. Of course they do. Right. Okay.

But so after that, A-Rod posts a YouTube video. The title is incredible. It's in all caps. And it's my birthday surprise for Jennifer. And it is a 10-minute video that he filmed and edited of him presenting J-Lo with a car. And within the first minute, he realizes that it's like definitely the she hasn't driven herself in 25 years. Oh, God.

Yeah. And he's like, but I want to do it anyway. And I'm going to get her a car. Creative. We've been talking about maybe a car. The irony is we're going to buy her a car. But she hasn't driven in 25 years. And he's practicing the presentation of the car and practicing where the kids are going to come from.

And like, you know, having people run things back. And then finally he does surprise her and he blindfolds her and he's like, you got to walk this way. And so he's negotiating her down the stairs and she is like performing. She knows she's being filmed and she's like, where am I going? You know, it's great. She's in it. Then the kids drive up the car playing It's Your Birthday. What's the actual name of the 50 Cent song? In the Club. In the Club? Yeah, they're playing in the club from the convertible.

I think it's a Porsche. I should know the type of the car, but I don't really care about that shit. And then Jennifer Lopez is immediately like, I haven't driven a car in forever. Whatever. They get in the car. She tries to reverse it. And A-Rod is suddenly like, oh, my God, don't crash the car. And it's all so staged and produced.

And, like, literally there is a whole camera crew there. And they are lighting it. There are multiple angles. It is very clear that Jennifer Lopez has been tipped off that this surprise is being filmed because she looks great. And I think even dummy A-Rod knows that you can't just like surprise film Jennifer Lopez. That's not OK. And they've practiced all of it. And it is still so endearing. And you feel like you're watching them squabble about how to drive a car and that they managed to make it that produced and just do something that is like totally for public consumption in order to make you like them

more in order to buy their dumb products. And but I still enjoy watching it and have done this entire recap means that they're very good at what they do. It's a true feat of stardom to be able to make you not hate someone after having them walk through all of those various stages of overmanaged content, you know? Because somebody like that doesn't vanish the way that, I don't know, Leonardo DiCaprio will vanish, you know what I mean? I guess you can spot Leo on the beach with a model, but you don't see him making things for your consumption. But they do. Like, I just Googled Jennifer Lopez, Alex Rodriguez. That was all I typed in and the first

return was published four hours ago by the today show's website and the headline is jennifer lopez wants more kids m-dash see alex rodriguez react which like does that mean that they never had that conversation about having more children the first time they had it was on the today show no i but yes the fact that you're wondering that is the thing and the fact you're willing to do it i mean you know he proposed and the photos are obviously staged and but they they did it again anyway and juliette livin and i who are obsessed with these two have spent a lot of time being like well did he actually propose the first time and then they restage it? Or are they just kind of doing this in real time and filming it? And I don't really know. Like, I think they have a relationship that is, I mean, they're rich and famous. They're

already, our lives are so different than ours that I couldn't honestly tell you. And I couldn't tell you whether if he actually did propose to her with a camera crew, like, you know, hiding and taking photos, whether that makes it any less real for them because they live in their whole crazy universe. It's a very smart observation. And I think that's part of it. And knowing that all of life is a performance, I think plays a significant role in what's so good about her work and Hustlers, which I'm not going to spoil for you here.

But I will just say that in the same way that when we watch Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and we have this relationship with Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio and we see them acting and knowing who they are as famous people and the way that it informs our feelings about them, Jennifer Lopez as Ramona in Hustlers, and this is sort of irrespective of what you think about the movie, her power and her evident fame completely suffused the movie. And it's a good thing. It's not bothersome. It's actually, it helps us because there is a level of suspicion that we need to have of her the same way that we have a little bit of suspicion exactly about what you're describing. Was there a camera crew on the beach when Alex proposed? Maybe there was, but maybe that doesn't matter to them. Maybe it didn't make it any less authentic than we imagine it might for you or I. and what you bring to watching the performance. And also the actual screen presence. You need both of those things. But she definitely has it. And I think the fact that she is so present

and still in our minds and has managed to do that for 10 years, even though she's made a ton of crappy movies that would kill pretty much anyone else's career. Completely. She knows how to use it to her advantage and that helps her stay relevant. Is there anything that we haven't discussed in J.Lo's career that you think we would be making a big mistake not to mention?

Because you know when we publish this podcast, someone's going to say, how dare you ignore, I don't know, angel eyes, monster in law. Something that we haven't really broken down here. I will say I wanted to watch Second Act last night. I'm not seeing it. I really wanted to see Second Act. I asked a lot of people in my life if they would go see Second Act for me, with me, and no one wanted to. So I never saw it in theaters. And then you can't rent it. You have to buy it. And I confess I was not willing to purchase Second Act to own last night. The synopsis for Second Act is hilarious to me. And one of the problems of these movies is

you just don't believe J-Lo as a person who's struggling because she's got so much power and charm. And obviously, she's so striking. But the plot of the movie is second act follows a woman in her 40s who pursues a second chance at a corporate career after a friend creates her a fake resume and credentials. Yeah, it's working, girl.

Sign me up. Melanie Griffith was not in her 40s. Sure, but Jennifer Lopez is 50 and she looks like 25, so... Funny thing about this movie, we were talking about the box office performance

of Gigli. This movie was made for $16 million and it made $72 million, which is a nice little living. That's not so bad for a, I guess this is like

a rom-com dramedy workplace comedy. I think it's, yeah, like the women's empowerment situation. Sure. Yeah.

I think her whole career could be argued for such a thing and Hustlers, I think, certainly will be argued as such a thing. Any closing thoughts?

I am very excited for the Jennifer Lopez Oscar campaign. Me too. We'll be talking about it more on the Oscar show coming up basically for the next five months. Now let's go to my conversation with the writer-director, Laureen Scafaria. I'm delighted to be joined by Laureen Scafaria, writer-director of Hustlers. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. So, Laureen, I want to know where you were in your career right before Hustlers came to you.

You'd made some films, but this is not the sort of film I would have predicted would come next from you. So what were you doing? What were you thinking about doing next after The Meddler? I was excited to swing the pendulum away from a really personal story, which The Meddler was directly about my mother and me dealing with my father's death and her moving here from New Jersey. So I was really excited to swing the pendulum. And yet when I was sent the article by Gloria Sanchez and Annapurna, they still felt like familiar people to me, even though it was a wild story and a really incredibly written article. And they felt like characters already. It felt like a movie already. They still felt like relatable people. They felt like people I grew up with, the guys

and the girls, honestly. You're an East Coaster. I'm a jersey girl yeah but i worked in a boiler room when i was uh my late teens um off off wall street i worked in a boiler room i was just answering phones and doing secretarial work um like boiler room in the style of the film boiler room bunch of guys cutting deals a giant room that just had phones in it yeah what was that like it was crazy but i mean it felt like normal in a way it felt like they were people i knew they were just guys that you know we're all trying to make ends meet it didn't occur to me um i mean, I heard them and I felt like these were scumbags. They were selling bad stocks to old people. So, I mean, I knew they were up to no good. They were terrible to the receptionist that was there. They were terrible to my mother that worked there.

Some guy said he was going to hit her in the head with a baseball bat. And the bosses basically just said like to her, like, bottom line, can you keep working with him? Because, you know, he brought in money and my mom was just hands on a keyboard. So that was wild. It was a wild time. But I guess for me, I just, you know, I grew up in Jersey and I don't know, in this world, I had friends who became strippers either after high school or after college, paying off student loans. It all felt very familiar to me, even though it felt like nothing I had done before. And I was really excited to explore a world that I thought we hadn't seen in a certain

way and honestly do something visual, exciting and visual that was that was part of the thrill for me so even though it was just a writing assignment at that point I was still like had my eyes on the prize a little bit yeah I was gonna ask you about that so you they reached out to you Gloria Sanchez and Annapurna about writing the script the minute you get the story which Jessica Presler in New York Magazine wrote the story your thought was I want to direct this do you have to then go sell yourself on being the filmmaker well not at all I mean it was really just a writing assignment at that point Adam McKay is also a producer so I didn't know if he had designs you know I had no idea and obviously I thought I mean he's amazing so I thought that would be very exciting. And I remember my agent at the time saying like, why do you want to do this? Like you're not directing it. And I just said, I have to write the story. I don't care. I just feel like I have to get it on paper. I feel like there's a perspective that I really want to get across or themes I've been so excited to talk about in, you know, work, not just at home every day. So, yeah, I just felt

like I had to write it before it was mine to direct, you know. So did you write a script first, turn it in, and then say, how about me? Yeah, I mean, I turned in like a script and then I did notes and handed in another draft. And they were really excited immediately. They were all thrilled with what they thought they had. And but then the journey was somehow still really, really long to making it. And my journey to have a chance to direct it hadn't even started. So I had my hand raised, obviously, already.

But I remember talking to Adam McKay and everybody was talking about Scorsese directing it. And I was like, well, that would be amazing. I would be so thrilled to sit on a Scorsese set if I should be allowed to. And so I was all for that, obviously. McKay knew that I really wanted to direct it. So I remember him saying to me, I hope Scorsese passes. And I thought that was just so lovely of him to say. Mind-blowing thing to hear out loud. And then, of course, Scorsese passed. So that was very, that was good for me. But there are like seemingly overt Goodfellas vibes, though, going on in the film. Is that fair to say?

That's fair. I mean, that's a nice thing to hear. Were you using, were there any blueprints when you were thinking about how it should look and how it should feel? Because, you know, it's a lot of pop music, slow motion, these kind of elegant portrayals, the story of mentorship and betrayal. There's a lot of things that are happening in the movie that felt like good homage. Yeah. Was that all purposeful at the outset for you when you were thinking about directing the movie? Yeah, it was probably even there on paper to a degree.

I mean, I was certainly trying to write it with an eye towards directing it. So I was trying to write it with an eye towards directing it. So I was trying to write it visually in a way. I always love using music. That's something that I've always enjoyed doing. So this was no different, but we had a lot more toys on this one and we had a lot more support to make something epic, honestly. You know, not that the meddler needed that much more. It would have been weird to have like a 50 cent drop in the middle of the meddler. Yes, it would have been wild. But we had Sinatra and that, you know, that still, I wrote a lot of letters for that movie.

A lot more letters. I wrote some letters for this one too but um yeah it was obviously not a natural leap necessarily from the meddler to hustlers but um yeah yeah was the pendulum swing that you're talking about as much stylistically as it was you know the story that you're telling and personally like were you trying to do something that felt significantly visually or tonally different from what you've done before too absolutely i felt like i had something to prove honestly it felt like after two films i still had something to prove to myself as much as anybody else honestly what was that oh just uh achieving you know i write this sounds so corny. Everything sounds ridiculous.

We're doing our best. We're all just doing our best. Doesn't it sound dumb? Seeking a Friend was really ambitious on the page. And there certainly was a lot of support there, but certainly my first time out and I didn't go to film school. I had directed theater. I had directed shorts, and it was just a really ambitious movie. And The Meddler, in another way, actually was wildly ambitious just because it was like a love letter to Los Angeles. So we needed certain locations like the Grove and the Farmer's Market. I mean, things that the Apple Store, I mean, things that had kind of never happened other than Marvel movies. I don't think of Marvel, you know, I think it only happened once before to shoot in an Apple Store. So this was really ambitious on the page and then kind of just needed that level of support in order to pull it off. And so I just knew I didn't want to make it the wrong way. Story-wise,

you know, bad notes that might have come in. And I just knew I didn't want to change it, the DNA of it in different ways. But yeah, it was just such a long process, honestly, on the page before it got to like, so for me, I was directing it in my head for a long time. Does Jennifer Lopez need to be attached to this movie for this movie to happen? Or were you making this movie and then Jennifer Lopez became a part of it? I'd like to, I thought we were making the movie. I don't know. I don't know. I thought we were, you know, I mean, I thought there was like a nine month process to get to the directing job for me. I cut together the sizzle reel of, you know, different movies that I thought would serve as showing that I could be a visual storyteller, but also there was a market for this, but also there was a hole in the market. So that was its own nine-month process.

And then after that finally became, okay, who's going to be in this? And then the minute I opened the script, it was like, oh, well, Ramona is Jennifer Lopez. I mean, I didn't think of her while writing it, and yet there she was. Her voice was just, I don't know, it was just there on the page. So I sent it to Elaine Goldsmith Thomas, her producing partner, who loved it and sent it to Jennifer, loved it. And then we met. And I, yeah, I mean, I don't think it would have been made without her, but I mean, it definitely wouldn't have been made this way without her. Everybody really wanted to work with her. You know, the cast that surrounds it is, i'm so grateful i mean they're they were all

my wish list but i don't think any of them would have i don't know i don't know who would have come together if jennifer wasn't the first one on board you know yeah and after i saw the movie i was trying to imagine this movie without her yeah and it's kind of hard to i i genuinely think this is by far the best thing she's done since out of sight oh that's yeah like it's kind of hard to, I genuinely think this is by far the best thing she's done since Out of Sight. Oh, that's, yeah. Like, it's really great. I love that film. Yeah. How did, like, what did you guys talk about when you first met to discuss it? How did you figure out?

Well, it's so funny. I mean, I couldn't have imagined anyone else either. And there was a moment where the schedule wasn't going to work out. The movie fell apart the day before my 40th birthday. So that was its own existential crisis on top of it and i remember saying like can you imagine anybody else in this part and i said no just absolutely not no i mean and so we just waited for her because she was worth the wait obviously and um yeah when when we met we started talking right away about the themes we were excited about, why it was so exciting.

I thought it was so exciting to see her in something dangerous. I loved her in Out of Sight. I loved her in U-Turn. I loved her in her romantic comedies. And she's had heavier fare since then. And, you know, you watch Shades of Blue and there's not a false note in it. She really is singular in being able to play tough and warm and all of these things at once. Not on a TV show, not in a commercial, not on Instagram. In movies, she has something she's in control yeah she's in control of the story even though it's really destiny's point of view of Ramona in a way it is a story about Ramona you know a story about what it's like to have the sun shining on you um for a little bit you know so I

I yeah it couldn't have been anybody else and she brought that energy to the set in a way that, you know, to see the other girls all with her like that, that there were these like mama bear, baby bear relationships and big sister, little sister relationships that formed. And to see a day player react to her, you know, in the way that they should, because that's Ramona, you know? So it was, there was something, even though it's something like we haven't really seen her do, maybe ever, or in a long time, I, for some reason, there's something very familiar and like, just does fit her like a glove in a way. It's just, you know, maybe something she hasn't put on in a while. Do you know why she responded to this? What was it that she liked about it? I think she, she loves a challenge. She's really a determined person. Obviously, she's so ambitious. I think she loved the challenge of it. I think it scared her a little bit to put herself out there in this way. I mean, I think people think she's put herself out there in this way, but

it's very different, to be honest. And so, yeah, I think she was drawn to it that way i think she was really drawn to the themes of it you know the time period like she knows the aughts um had some questions for you about yeah she knows new york she knows um she knows these guys and girls too and she knows um even though she wasn't so privy to the world, she, through, you know, research and all of that, that she, in talking to people and the training, the extensive training, the newfound respect that she has for pole dancers because of just the muscles involved, the athleticism, it's really a contact sport. It's really hard. And so we wanted to treat it like a sports movie in that way. Was there a lot of training that had to happen before you went into production for oh yeah yeah because she dances

every single day but this is this is truly like nothing else you really have to train for this and ramona is like the top money maker in the place and the best dancer and so the pressure was on you know and and she just took to it She brought the pole with her to every city that she went to. And yeah, I mean, and the physical stuff aside, I mean, she really slipped into the greed, you know, when does survival turn to greed and when do you go too far? And just the complexity of it, just being able to speak to the financial crisis through this side door that people don't often think about. One of the things I really admired about it, maybe selfishly as a journalist, was how closely you hewed to the real story. Yeah. You know, you did not Hollywoodify it. You did not create false expectations or false endings or anything. It really is close to the story that is told,

but still is cinematic, visually amazing, great performances. You get that experience. Was there a period where you were thinking about taking things more left than where it went? Was it always kind of, let's try to get as close to the story and adapting it as possible? I didn't want to change what happened. And I didn't want to change the punishment, obviously. But I was terrified of what could happen to this story. Terrified, just of, especially because we changed studios at some point.

You were terrified because that happens frequently? Sure, because, I mean, any movie, this happens to any movie, obviously, any script, obviously. But I think one about strippers, I think one about women doing bad things, you know, it's just under a little bit more of a microscope. It receives the same stigma as the women in their jobs, honestly, to try to tell a story about them. And then certainly that it goes too far. And we do know the difference between right and wrong, but I wanted to tell that story with empathy anyway, kind of for men and women, honestly, because if all writing is an exercise in that, how could this not be, you know?

So people say antiheroes. I don't think they're heroes or villains either, but I don't know. They're just kind of people. That's kind of another reason why the movie is unlikely is it's not forcing you to decide. You know, there is a kind of ambiguity to a lot of what is happening in the movie that is very uncommon, especially in a movie with movie stars that has as much kind of style and weight behind it as this one does. Did anybody ever say to you, like, what if destiny was more of a hero? Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. What if something much worse happened to a character in a scene? And that just, you know, I thought thought to myself well there there's so many microaggressions that everyone's i mean that you know women deal with every day um you know there certainly are microaggressions to aggressions that they deal with in a strip club um at their jobs so um these guys did destroy the country and the global economy. So I guess I just thought I didn't need to embellish anything like that. I still felt like I wanted to tell the fuller story of being moms and being friends and this friendship that, you know, these two women

who had this business together, and then this journalist that interviewed them separately after that all went down. And I just, so I just found that human element so interesting. And of course, the story is wild. And I'm sure the truth is even stranger than fiction. You know, I'm sure, you know, I tried to read between the lines as much as the article and interviews with other people and research. But, yeah, it takes turns, obviously.

Do you know how the real people feel about this movie? I do now. I mean, I know how a couple of them feel. Does it matter to you? It matters a lot to me It mattered so much that I hated not having access to them

ahead of time That was really hard for me And then I tried to orchestrate I was trying to figure out how to make them I don't know, even just an interview or something be a part of it I just wasn't sure

I just felt a lot of responsibility because they're at different points in their lives now, you know, they're on the other side of this and they're reflective of it. And in not talking to them, I felt like, oh gosh, I hope, I hope my portrayal of this experience is something they can watch, honestly. And are they comfortable with it? Have they taken issue? One has taken issue. The one that is represented by Jennifer is, I think, suing. Oh, my gosh.

And I can't blame her. She's a hustler, you know? that's awesome i don't know i mean i you know i we didn't have life rights because we weren't trying to draw their real yes exactly um but i still felt like this story and how they got here and what was in the article still felt like relevant so i didn't want to get rid of everything, obviously, and wanted to use the article in the character building of it. So I spoke to Rosie and Karina about halfway through filming. We finally got to talk on the phone. And I think once pictures were coming out, it was starting to feel like it was real.

And I think it was hard for them at first or, you know what I mean? It would be weird. I don't want a movie about my life. I know. I made the meddler and I was trying to tell them it was even in making my own. It was like, why am I doing this? So I, it all makes sense. And I think they were worried I was going to dig it up in a really salacious way and tell it differently maybe. So I think once we talked and they knew where I was coming from with

it and what my approach was, I think it felt a little better. And then I met Rosie the day after we wrapped for the first time. I was so tired because we wrapped at six in the morning, but I was like, I have to meet her before I go back oh wow yeah how did it go it was great it was great and then I met Karina um recently when I went back uh maybe a month ago and she's lovely and I mean Jersey girl we hit it off and yeah what was it like well I'll just say I love a recent vintage period piece I feel like that's one of the most fun kinds of things you can watch. That's how I felt.

Did you, was it fun to go back to 07, 08? I drove everybody a little crazy because I wanted to be so period accurate. It was accurate, I thought. Oh, that's good. I was in New York, New Jersey at that time as well. So I felt it. Yeah, well, Mitchell Travers, our costume designer, and Jane Muskie, our production designer, they had a lot to do with the authenticity of that. Shooting in New York had a lot to do with that, obviously.

Is it hard to do? Yes. It's really hard to do. I may never do it again. I may never watch a movie set in New York again. Why do you say that? Because it's like you can't shoot on a bridge. You can't have a camera outside of it.

You know, there were just so many rules and I get it, but it's like, oh, it just, I love this place so much. I shot part of the meddler there. I wish I shot Seeking a Friend on the East Coast. I'm kidding, New York. I love you. I'm just going to, it's going to be hard to write something set away from this place. It's so familiar to me. Most of my thoughts and dreams are still in New Jersey and New York. And so, um, but you know, I may choose nowhere USA or something for the next one. It's a little easier to book location. I think so.

There's no city attached. The money may go further is all i mean it's very true what about the music you said you like to write to music you like to figure out where you're going with that this is a very i was working at a at a rap magazine at the time so this is like a very evocative period that i recall very distinctly not i was not in a lot of strip clubs honestly but i was listening to a lot of these songs easy to figure out what you wanted to use easy to figure out how to like is it easier to clear a song that is out of the consciousness in this way where it's only been like 10 years maybe than it would be for something that is 35

years old? You know it depends depends on the artist and how popular it was and maybe where they're at in their lives I'm not sure sure. I mean, some things cost more than others. I'm always shocked at how much a song costs. And yet musicians now, I can't blame them. You know, if they're not touring like you two, Katy Perry, it's hard to make money, you know? So yeah, I get it. But I also just love putting music in movies and love shooting to music. And I don't actually write to music because I find it too distracting unless I know exactly the song. And then I can just have it on a loop and stay in that zone. But otherwise, I'm genuinely moved by the song I'm listening to and can't, you know what I mean?

I could have like TV or movies on while I'm writing more than I can have music playing. That sounds crazy to me, but okay. I write always, right. I'm always, if I ever read anything,

I'm writing to music. But is it the same thing? That sounds crazy. Is it the same thing? Like, you know what I mean? Is it a mix? Depends on what it is I'm writing.

Yeah. Okay. So you are going. I'm not writing anything as important as you, so it probably doesn't matter, but I don't know. It's a good question. Like sometimes no lyrics is useful right sometimes lyrics are necessary sometimes

loud is necessary i don't know but you don't you not at all not really i'm genuinely so moved by it if i put on a song right now i i don't know i'm really you're a songwriter too yeah no i am but i have been i'm embarrassed a little by you, I wish I was just a songwriter and not that I sang them myself. You know, I find that it's just so vulnerable. I have so much respect for singers and performers in general. There's a very real reason I enjoy being behind the camera, but I love songwriting and I love incorporating music. And I'm writing an animated musical, or I'm supposed to be today. I'm supposed to be right now. But so I enjoy incorporating music into everything. And Chopin was just a really big part of this one for me. So if I was listening to anything, it was that.

And I certainly would put on the song once I was, you know, thinking, oh, this is what I'm going to, you know, shoot this to. You're writing an animated musical. Yeah. Yeah. A hermit crab musical. That sounds very different from Hustlers. Yeah. The problem is I named the girl character Ramona. I don't know what to do now. You know, she's my dog. So I was trying to get her in something. But I don't know. Ramona is your dog? Yeah. And Jennifer Lopez's character and in this musical? Yes, but probably will have to be changed in this musical. Well,

if Ramona becomes an iconic character, that's also problematic, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And we call our dog Mona now. So it's, you know, that's at least different at home. What do you do after making a movie like this? Do you have anxiety about its performance, about how it will be received? Are you already on to the next thing? I mean, I just finished it Friday. Congratulations. Thank you. So I can't even believe I'm talking about it yet. I'm still like defending final like sound mix notes in my head, you know?

So yeah, I have to go write that thing. I have to go write this musical. Will it be easy to pull yourself out of the previous experience or does it live with you for a period of time? I'm so excited, honestly. I'm really excited for people to see this um i feel like this has been a long time in the making so i'm so i i want to just be present that's my hope for myself is that i'm not like too nervous or i don't know too driven by anything i mean i'm not i'm goofy about this i'm really like excited but nervous you know in general about just being on a red carpet with these women who are stunning and, like, comfortable with themselves. So, you know, it's its own leg at this point of it. But I'm so excited for people to see it. I'm so excited to go to Toronto. That's kind of like the festival that I've done a lot.

And they're just nice people. You're going to be shotgunned right into theaters after it premieres at the festival. Yeah, six days later. Is that exciting? Yes. The movie is really fucking fun. fun but do you have any concerns as a person who makes basically character-based drama comedy whatever you want to call the genre that we're in a tough spot for movies like that right now and that movies like that have struggled a lot in the last couple of years yeah i think they've

struggled a lot i think it it it feels sad to me it's honestly why Once Upon a Time was so moving for me when I saw it because, you know, I want something to live on. And they're my favorite kinds of movies. And the studios that make them are my favorite kinds of places to work. So, yeah, of course, I'm like praying it's not a death rattle, you know. But people seem really excited about their tent poles. So it's hard to, it's hard to compete. You know, I'm grateful that places like A24 exist, that Annapurna and STX. I mean, like, STX honestly stepped up in a way that I can't even believe. Was that bizarre when that happened? Just the fact that, you know, you essentially moved studios, or at least who was distributing the film.

Was it in the middle of production or near to the end of it? No, I mean, it was in the middle of casting. Okay. You know, it was while we had Jennifer attached and we're close, so close. You know, that's kind of when things fall apart, it feels like. So it felt like we were just so close and then it was over and then I thought oh my gosh no one's gonna step up and then people wanted it but they wanted it differently they really wanted it wrapped up in a bow and they really wanted it watered down or they really wanted it to be honestly like a rape revenge movie or something.

There were a lot of places that were not that were excited about it and really excited about the cast or the potential cast. But, you know, saw it very black and white. So I was not interested in making that kind of movie. But and I think other people were probably really scared of it because it's a movie about strippers and it's a movie about women who do bad things. And so STX, they were the place that I went into. I had no idea what they were going to say.

And to hear them say, like, it was like in Bridget Jones, we love you exactly as you are. I was like, really? And then, of course, they had notes and I was still afraid. So I, as an unmar I mean, based on their notes and with the hopes that we were all going to make this movie together, but with the get out of jail free card that I could just take my script and write off into the sunset of something

was going to go wrong, you know? And it was funny. I did a page one rewrite of it, like really broke the script apart because I had done so many drafts of it in the process of trying to, you know, green light it. How many would you say? I mean, I don't know, 20, you know, not like, again, not re-breaking it fully. So just rejiggering it, rewriting it trying different things and um and then and then this

was like okay let's just smash it to the ground and see what happens and so I wrote it like a completely different movie and and then that wasn't right it like wasn't right either it just wasn't right to break it apart. But so many scenes came from that. So many things came from that. So then the third, I'll call it draft, even though there were, you know, whatever, however many, the third draft of it was this movie. But I handed it in mid January. And, you know, I had like two days off of not trying to push this movie forward, like Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. And so when I handed this thing and I was like, goodbye, hustlers, like I thought like, oh, well, you know, like, here you go. I guess this movie will never get made.

And they were like, yep, let's do it. Yeah. You know, I know you've probably had that experience a few times in the past, especially when you were specifically working as a screenwriter, to just work hard on something, get paid for it, but then it never happens. Yeah. No one even knows about it unless they look at deadline from 2011. Right. What is that experience like? And were you more afraid or more comfortable with this project because that had happened before?

Because I hadn't had like that attention, you mean, to the work or? Well, just that like you worked hard on something and then there was some awareness of it and then it. And then that. And then it was gone. Yeah. I mean, it was. The meddler was hard for those reasons. You know, it felt like it's not even.

I don't think you can ever find it again. I don't know where it is, but it's playing at my mom's house 24-7 if anyone wants to watch it. You can find it. I found think the real challenge after that is just now what? It wasn't like when you asked me now what, it's so amazing that there's even a possibility. Well, I don't think I even realized that. So you said January, which means less than eight months. Yeah. That's not common in my experience of talking it happen i don't recommend it i don't even i don't think it even should fully be bragged about because it's so bad that yeah

congratulations thank you that's my preemie yeah but it's like but you know what i mean it's so it was so hard to the the good news was that Jennifer was attached for so long. We had developed our thoughts about it for so long. I had had Todd Van Hazel, the DP, and Mitchell Travers, the costume designer, attached for so long that I was in, like, soft prep for a really long time. It's just that then the gun went off, and I was like, I have to move to New York. I have to, you know, hurry. Prep was short, obviously. So casting, you're just like, oh my God, who are we going to get?

You know? But you got everybody. It's crazy. You got famous TV stars. You got Cardi B, Lizzo. Like you have very, and also extremely zeitgeisty right now. Some of that must be luck. Some of that must be strategy. Some of that must be strategy.

I had chased Garty for two years. I had chased Garty before I was the director of the movie. I was like sending her messages on Instagram and then I'd get a message back with a phone number and then I'd text that phone number and then someone would text back. I have no idea if I was ever, I don't think I was ever communicating with her.

Really, I don't know. I don't know. But she showed up. Well, thank God. Yeah. But thank God for Jennifer. I mean, that's how, obviously that made it a lot easier, but, but there was, that was two years of that. I mean, because she's just, you know, authentic and has an incredible personality. Hilarious. So funny and smart smart and i just thought she had a performance in her and i i think she did i think she's awesome in it but um but she really was an actor in it that was what i was so impressed with it was like she really existed in a scene with 15 other girls you know it was it was um incredible to see different, you know, some megawatt stars and some real strippers all coexisting and actors and, you know, in the same space. It's like a metaphor for making a movie.

Yes, it is. Is there anything that you really want to do now that you've accomplished this? Do you think about your career in that way i guess is probably a way of asking about i just always chase the story you know so i'm really interested in whatever the story is i think i'm excited um to be honest about the idea of doing larger movies for a second i love independent films i love i would love to make a micro-budget movie. I would love to make a $2 million movie again. When you say larger, what do you mean? Do you mean like Superman versus Batman? No, I mean like I love this. I love this kind of size movie. I grew up, I loved these movies in the 90s and i i'm obsessed with the idea of them and i you've come

to the right show we are also good yeah no we talk about this all the time i mid-budget 90s thriller comedy drama rom-com give it to me all of those are good i love them yeah and so as a kid who saw Pulp Fiction in theaters six times, you know, the joy for me is to try to make these kinds of movies to write and direct. And, you know, not necessarily genre, not necessarily tentpole. I'm not, you know, I just think, I don't know, I love this size movie, the characters that you can follow, the worlds you can find. And then I can't help but enjoy writing again ambitiously. And I don't know, you know, so it's hard to, I don't know, it's hard to look back a little bit.

But I still love like small ideas and I like small characters. I have this one idea that I keep thinking about that's so tiny, and I'm like, I just know I'm going to do it next. I just know I could just fall into that so easily because I just love to chase a story and themes that I want to talk about. That's not the animated Hermit Crab musical? I love the themes of that movie, actually. But animated movies take so long. I'm not directing it. And I'm happy not to direct it. I'm happy it's a completely different thing. But it'll be years in the making and so many voices as it should be. So I'm trying to make it the Jersey Shore hermit crab musical of my dreams because I pitched this idea to them, which is why it's exciting.

You know, it was my idea rather than an assignment. And so I want to see it through, obviously. And I relate to the Jersey crabs. So I will see that through. But as far as what I want to direct next, there's one small idea and one really large idea. And the large idea I've been chasing since 2007. So I'm trying. If I can get that one going, I'll be really excited. Maybe you'll come back for that one. Lorian, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen.

I assume you're going to say Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I am. Do you want to say anything else? No, I'm going to say Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Tell me a little more what you loved about it. We've talked about it so much. You know, I found it really moving and really human and really restrained

and really different from his work and yet still delivering on what you want from him. I was so moved by the characters, Leo's character and Brad Pitt's characters. And of course, like Sharon Tate watching herself and seeing real Sharon Tate in the movie. I thought that was all really beautifully done. And the ending was so moving. Him just, I mean, I guess, should I be giving away the ending or these people know? I think listeners of this show have seen the movie.

Oh, the gates opening for him. That was just like eternity. And I felt something for Leo as a movie star. I felt something for Tarantino as a filmmaker. I hear all the, you know, small criticisms that people may have of him over the years. I get it. But I, you know, I'm the kid who saw Pulp Fiction six times. So when I saw this, I just thought, oh, God, this is like, I didn't know this was in him right now. I don't know. I didn't know this was what I was going to see. So I was so moved by it. I was moved by Hustlers too, Lorraine. Thanks for doing this. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you to Lorraine Scafaria. And thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins. We'll be back on The Big Picture next week with a big conversation about what is

Oscar bait in 2019? Is it Hustlers? Is it the Goldfinch? You'll have to wait to find out.