The Big Picture - Introducing the Big Oscar Bet. Plus, A Halloween Mega-Mailbag.
Episode Date: October 27, 2023Sean and Amanda debut a predictions-based game surrounding this year’s Oscars ceremony (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by frequent guest Alex Ross Perry to open the mailbag and answer questions about t...he current state of horror, how the WGA strike and new agreement affects filmmakers and writers like him, the state of physical media, and more (57:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Alex Ross Perry Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Hi, this is Ben Lindberg and Jessica Clemons, and we are the hosts of Button Mash,
The Ringer's video game podcast on The Ringerverse feed. We are in the midst
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I'm Sean Fennessy.
I'm Amanda Dobbins.
And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Oscars and horror with an old pal.
Later in this episode, we welcome back for his record eighth appearance on The Big Picture,
writer, director, movie freak, collector of epic horror paraphernalia,
Alex Ross Perry.
Please stick around for my conversation with him.
We did a mailbag of sorts about Halloween,
about the perilous state of Hollywood,
about raising young children in this strange world.
But first, Amanda,
I've been thinking about how to incentivize and raise the stakes on this podcast, this Oscar race, and perhaps our friendship.
And so I have been brainstorming and we've come up with something very simple and direct.
But that has, I think, made us break out into hives since I pitched this idea.
I'm incredibly stressed out.
And I was explaining it to my husband and soliciting advice and got very stressed out when just even talking about it to a third party.
And I've, yeah, this is a terrible idea, but also a great idea.
Okay, thank you.
It's 135 days until the Academy Awards.
So we've seen
most of the major contenders.
Yeah, but the ones
that we haven't?
Yes, that's where
well, we'll get there.
We'll get there.
And even how some of them
are going to
okay, go ahead.
Keep going.
Odds makers
and season narratives
are starting to form.
There is a sense
of what this race
is going to look like.
We've been discussing it
somewhat over the last two months but we haven't gotten super deep on it. This is actually going
to be our seventh season covering the Academy Awards. Can you believe that? How do you feel
about that? I like doing it with you. Okay. I'm feeling positive right now. If we don't start
the season with positivity, which is going to evaporate as soon as we start this game. I was just going to say, this kind of negates that. I'm just like, I'm bringing a moment of warmth and gratitude
on this gray day filled with terror and the prospect of being wrong in public.
You're wearing a lovely sweater.
Thank you.
And what I've learned is a rosette.
Yeah, it's a rosette.
So this is Scottish cashmere that I ordered because my friend, Lauren Sherman of Puck said that Scottish cashm this is scottish cashmere okay that i ordered uh because my friend
lauren sherman of puck said that scottish cashmere is better than italian cashmere and also it's
like it's much cheaper uh i just bought it on etsy incredible um timing on that because on my
way to the killer screening yesterday which we will talk about at length in the future and i'm
very excited to do so i just listened to mull of Kintyre, the Paul McCartney,
the Wings song,
on repeat for 40 minutes
driving across town.
Because I just got
in the zone with it.
Sure.
You know you get in the zone
with a song?
I do.
And I hadn't realized,
I got in the zone with it
because I was listening
to Life in Lyrics,
which is the Paul McCartney podcast.
Are you aware of this podcast?
Yes, but I haven't listened to it.
It's basically an extension
of the wonderful lyrics book
that you got me
for my 40th birthday.
Oh, yeah.
Where he just talks about
how he wrote his songs
and there was a great episode
about Molo Kintyre.
Anyway,
extraordinary divergence
from where I was going
with this,
which is to say
we're going to play
a new game
related to the Academy Awards.
Oh, you didn't have
any thoughts
about Scottish cashmere?
Looks nice.
Thanks.
You're wearing a sweater
because it's cold and gray
in LA for the first time
in six months.
but I needed to bring
some color and some warmth
which is why I added
the rosettes.
So here we are. Let's stamp that out. Let's go to black and months. But I needed to bring some color and some warmth, which is why I added the rosettes. So here we are.
Let's stamp that out.
Let's go to black and white.
Let's go to results-oriented podcasting.
This is what we do.
This is like, I thought a lot about Knox
while I was making this list and my feelings.
And like, how am I not, how am I going to parent
so that I don't transfer this insanity
and this results-oriented nonsense to my son while also teaching ambition and a sense of taking pride in your accomplishments?
You won't.
I know, but, like, that's what am I going to do?
Like, I became so instantly insane about this.
And I don't want to give that to the next generation.
You know, I don't want to give it to the generation of listeners who I, you know, many of whom are younger and forming their thoughts in the world.
Don't be like us.
I just got to zag.
I just got to say all the world is a fight.
And if you don't get ready for the fight by competing at an early age, you're going to lose that fight.
That's all I'm saying. It's very important to think that way. I've just seen the killer. Let me tell you. It's all about the fight. And if you don't get ready for the fight by competing at an early age, you're going to lose that fight. That's all I'm saying. It's very important to think that way. I've just seen
the killer. Let me tell you, it's all about the fight. Yeah. Listen, we understand that the killer
is your autobiography. That's not what you're teaching to your child though. I'm actually
trying to do the exact opposite, but when my true nature manifests. I know, that's what I'm saying.
Yeah. It's fascinating. How do we hide it? Well, let's record this in posterity for them so they can see who we really were.
Okay?
I think about this all the time with my parents.
I'm like, who?
Because, you know, both of our parents, they split up.
Sure, yeah.
So I'm like, how in the name of God were my parents married?
Like, what was that like when they were in love at 27?
It seems impossible to imagine.
I truly, I can't imagine it. But now, when Alice looks back when she's 41 years old,
and she's like, what was my dad really like
when he put himself on display for the world like a buffoon?
What did it sound like?
Here's evidence of me playing a game with one of my closest friends
about a very stupid Oscar game that,
there probably won't be an Oscars when Alice is 41.
Yeah, probably not.
That's great. Will there be an Earth? an Oscars when Alice is 41. Yeah, probably not. That's great.
Will there be an Earth?
Well, God, I hope so.
I mean, we can't.
I need to ask a question.
Hold on.
I need to ask a question.
Are you guys okay?
What's going on?
I'm doing great.
I'm actually very excited.
This is my favorite thing to do is to make up a stupid game, which is not even a complex
game.
The game is very simple.
I'm going to explain it.
We're just going to predict the nominees and winners in 11 key Oscar categories for this forthcoming ceremony.
That's it.
It's just a predictions game.
So we are predicting winners?
Absolutely.
Okay.
I didn't prepare that.
It's right here in the document.
It says each correct nomination will count as one point.
Each correct win prediction will count as three points.
Okay. fair enough. If you want to
cite a hardest omission on your list, you can do so for the sake of conversation. Now, what is at
stake here is something we're going to talk through in real time. So the person with the most points
based on that scoring system on March 10th, 2024, and we will tally these results on the Oscar podcast that we record,
the night of the ceremony, wins what I am loosely describing and will be negotiated right now,
a movie night of their choice.
And the loser needs to participate in full in the movie night.
Now, there are some parameters I've been thinking about.
I'll give you one that I've thought about.
Okay.
And whether or not we should incorporate our partners, our life partners into this.
Right.
Is a critical distinction.
But in addition to the movie, should it be a dinner and a movie night, but the winner picks the restaurant and orders all the food for each attendee?
I mean, sure.
Is that, do you imagine that in that situation,
I would go and just order like broccoli smothered in sour cream for you?
Yeah, but if I win, we go to the Sour Patch Kids factory
and we sit down for a five course meal, you know?
Yeah, like, you know, my weaknesses, you know well yeah like you know my weaknesses you know the things
i don't know but it's it's really funny that you immediately imagined it as like an extra
opportunity to punish the other person that's the point whereas i imagined it as a opportunity
to force everything to have it just the way I want, you know?
Oh, well, that's possible too. The movie just the way that I want, the restaurant just as I want.
That is one way to interpret it.
It's not.
Only child, sibling.
Right.
You know, I have many siblings and what we do is we torture each other.
Well, that's me.
When you're an only child, you think about what is good for me?
What do I want?
Right.
What will make me happy?
Again, I'm just trying to bring some enjoyment and some positivity okay into this experience i don't know why can i tell you
what i thought the scoring thing how this what i thought the scoring system was which did not
depend upon picking the winner right now i think i thought that it was just one point if you got a nomination right
and then if one of the
films that you
picked
won
you got three points.
And then
so can we do a tier?
Can we do that?
And then if you actually
pick the winner
then you get five.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Yeah.
So if a nomination
that you have identified
actually wins,
you get basically extra points for choosing that nomination.
Yes.
Sure, we can do that.
I don't know.
It makes wins very valuable, though.
Five points for a win is a big, that's big.
That actually would change my calculus on some of my points.
Okay, then we don't have to do it that way.
I don't mind changing.
That's what I thought.
But it's harder to take risks then.
My thing is like,
I've taken a couple of risks here,
but wins are not as valuable.
Yeah, I mean,
I have not taken risks
because that's the way
that the math works
is that you just want to pick
the most obvious to try to,
you know, playing the margins
doesn't really yield
in your current setup.
Is there any way you want to evolve the victory, the winning prize?
I thought it was going to be a public thing.
Like, I thought it was going to be a movie night that we then open up to the public.
Like a public vote or that we sell tickets to?
That we sell tickets to.
Oh, wow.
That's what I thought you meant.
So the winner would get to program the movie night.
Yeah.
Well, that's something we'll have to explore.
Okay.
I'm very open-minded about that.
We're screening Joker and Sean is dressed as Joker.
Right.
Well, I was going to say, Bobby, if you want to extend the punishment,
you could really torture me that way.
Oh, I've thought about it no I'm sure that you will I mean that's the other reason that I feel stressed
out and also surly is because like you're gonna win probably not necessarily you've had you've
had great success in Oscar predictions over the years that's's true. But we essentially, that's on the stuff that we agree on, you know, because we've done this a while and we have a sense of how things are going to go.
Yeah.
And so it is going to be the risks or the random things or fucking animated category, you know, that you've included here.
It's not hard.
I know that it's not that hard, but you know.
There's only
like eight animated movies that are going to contend i understand that i know i did four of
them okay interesting i'm interested to hear what you think the fourth one is uh i have three okay
um it's fine it's fine it's i'm excited i did my homework here are the categories we're gonna do
and we're gonna go through our predictions pretty rejected my homework. Here are the categories we're going to do. And we're going to go through our predictions pretty quickly. You rejected my original song.
And who said we're going quickly?
I said we're going quickly.
Well, it's you.
Listen.
I'm trying to navigate the pod.
We got this whole hour-long conversation with Alex.
That's not my fault.
Sure it is.
You're part and parcel of this whole thing.
I know, but I didn't keep it, you know.
I was waiting.
I was ready.
I did my homework.
Thank you for your punctuality.
But now you have to suffer the consequences of being part of a team.
You're on a team
with me,
with Robert,
sometimes with Alex Perry.
This is something
that happens, Amanda.
Read the categories.
The categories are
Best Picture, of course.
We'll be predicting
all 10 nominees
in the winter.
Best Director,
Best Actor,
Best Actress,
Best Supporting Actor,
Best Supporting Actress,
Best Adapted Screenplay,
Best Original Screenplay,
Best Documentary Feature Film, Best International Feature Film, and Best Animated Feature Film.
Now, those final three categories are chaotic for a few reasons because we have not seen the shortlists yet for doc, for international feature film.
There are films we don't even know are eligible that we could be choosing here.
It could become clear tomorrow that that film is no longer eligible or is not selected by that country for eligibility.
So we're taking some shots in the dark.
There could be some chaos there.
In other categories, it's pretty close to being clear what three or four out of five are going to be.
That is true.
The one other wrinkle is that you and I were recording this on October 25th, and the actors are still on strike.
And they're back at the table and it seems,
God, I hope that they get a deal
and a deal that they're happy with soon.
But if they don't, you know,
we're getting closer to Thanksgiving and then Christmas
and then that affects campaigns
and campaigns affects who wins Oscars.
And there are a couple here where I'm like, I don't know.
This benefits a lot of films that have already been released, is what I will say right now.
Now, that could change.
I was told last night by a couple people that nothing's going to move, that the calendar is more or less set now for the rest of the year, regardless of the strike outcome.
We shall see if that's true.
That's just idle speculation.
Right.
But even if films are released you can't
campaign in the same way for the oscars and there are a few people you're absolutely right who would
be using it one way or the other should we start with this the animated feature yes okay we'll
start with the lower categories okay and we're just gonna read we should just read what we what
we have i think that's the best now do you want to go first on this one do you want to read your
five so this one i promise not to change any of our predictions what we've got written down here is what we're
going to stick with i guess i have to go first then because i have there were a couple i was
going to make on the fly here okay and in animated feature film i have phoned a friend uh and in this
case it's two friends uh david sims and griffin newman and I let them know about the parameters here.
And I want to say that I identified three,
the first three animated features on my own.
Those are the three locks,
which I would say are Spider-Man,
Across the Spider-Verse,
The Boy and the Heron,
Elemental.
David and Griffin familiarized themselves
with the rules of this game and suggested Wish.
And then Nimona, which I looked up the Wikipedia page for and then didn't finish the summary.
But that is from Netflix.
It is from Netflix.
And apparently it has a lot of goodwill in the animation community, according to Griffin.
A film that was long in development
for many many years
by a very celebrated
filmmaker didn't really
arrive with much
acclaim or interest
and it was the summer
it was actually maybe
a late spring release.
I saw it.
It was fine.
It was very creatively
designed.
I do.
I have four of those
films.
OK.
But I have one
difference now one
difference is Teenage
Mutant Ninja Turtles
colon Mutant Mayhem.
Okay.
I saw that.
Which I think is a brilliant idea.
Heroes in a Half Shell?
Turtle Power?
Yes, absolutely.
Hopefully we have
some Turtle Power.
Should we do
Best International Feature Film?
Sure.
This is extremely hard
because we don't have
a short list.
Yes.
So,
should I go first?
Sure.
Sean, you didn't say which film you don't have of her five. I. So, should I go first? Sure. Sean,
you didn't say
which film you don't have
of her five.
I don't have Nimona.
I actually had,
I wrote down
Hardest Omission,
Nimona.
Okay.
So,
and Bob,
oh,
who's writing these in
in the doc?
Should I write them in?
Maybe we can drop ours in.
We obviously,
we have a completely blank doc
because we are both
big pick psychos
who would not share
any of our information with the other person before the podcast recording.
This is what we do, right?
I mean, this is who we are.
So do I have to pick a winner now?
In Animated?
Yes.
Or do you want to do all the nominations?
No, let's pick a winner.
Spider-Man, across the Spider-Verse.
I have The Boy and the Heron.
Oh, right.
Okay.
And that could be wrong.
And I think that's going to be received
somewhat strangely
because it's a very strange movie
even by Hayao Miyazaki's standards.
But this idea that he's at the end,
even though he's promising
he might make another movie,
that feels like the right choice for me.
If Spider-Man wins,
I won't be surprised.
Okay.
But it being the second in a trilogy
is a little bit of a tricky...
That was what kind of steered me against it.
Nevertheless, a huge success this year.
That's what steered me against it as a film a huge success this year. That's what steered me
against it as a film,
but people like it.
And it was very beautiful.
Wonderful film.
Definitely in my
top 10 of the year so far.
Okay.
Next category.
Best international feature film.
Here are my five.
Okay.
My first film is
Society of the Snow.
This was my hardest cut.
Okay. Okay.
Yeah.
Now, I'm seeing this movie tomorrow.
So, hopefully after I've seen it,
I feel like I've made a great choice.
It's from J.A. Bayona,
who was most recently seen
directing a Jurassic World movie,
which is crazy.
But in his previous life,
as an auteur filmmaker,
I think he made Dominion.
What happens in it?
I don't know.
It's definitely a movie.
In his previous life...
Should I call Chris just to check to see what happened in that movie?
Please do not call Chris to talk about Jurassic Park.
Chris is on the line.
He knows what happened in this film.
There was either a volcano or they went to America and had some sort of auction for dinosaurs or both.
Jurassic World...
Is the island
not a territory of America?
We can't do this.
We can't.
Island of Dinosaurs,
American Citizens.
That's okay.
Society of Snow
is directed by J.A. Bayona.
This is Spain's
selection.
Yes.
For the Oscars.
My next pick is The Teacher's Lounge, another film I haven't seen yet.
Okay, interesting.
But that is getting very strong praise.
I believe it's Germany's selection, directed by Ilka Katak.
I've heard great things about this.
I'm also seeing this next week.
My next selection is The Zone of Interest.
This is England's selection, Jonathan Glazer.
England has never won in this category because it was language oriented
and so they've expanded
and redefined the parameters
my next pick is
Perfect Days
Wim Wenders' film
which is from Japan
which I've just recently seen
and is quite beautiful
and then the last one
is The Taste of Things
somewhat controversially selected
by France
over Anatomy of a Fall
except you saw it
at Telluride
and it was
one of your favorite things
I'm seeing it
in like two weeks.
I hope you like it and I hope I haven't oversold it.
I'm very excited.
Zach and I are going together.
They arranged it so that we could see it together, which was very sweet.
Astoundingly romantic movie.
Okay, what are your picks?
Okay, so I have Perfect Days, The Taste of Things, and The Zone of Interest.
Okay.
I have, one second, The Promised Land, which is Denmark's selection.
This was my omission.
Yeah.
Directed by Nicolas Garcelle.
And this was like very early in Venice and I missed it.
And it stars Mads Mikkelsen and it's apparently incredibly beautiful and stirring.
And so I think I picked it because it's like one of those, I didn't quite get there at the festival things, but I think that it has a lot going for it.
And then I'm, I'm guess this is a swerve though.
It didn't, didn't really feel like a swerve to me.
I am doing 20 Days in Mariupol in International Future, which is a Ukraine documentary submission that has happened before i mean it's ukraine submission
but it is a documentary and it could also be computing competing in the documentary feature
category i just i haven't seen this film yet brian curtis saw this a few months ago and emailed me
immediately after he saw it and was like this is easily one of the best documentaries i've seen in a while um documentaries do get selected in this category uh from time to time um and it just it obviously is
extremely timely and um and extraordinary so i i think that it could shake up 20 days in mario
pole is coming to pbs in november in case people want to check that out um i definitely will be
okay best documentary feature film this. What were your wins?
My win is The Taste of Things.
Oh, you're predicting that to win?
Yeah.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
I haven't seen a single one of these movies, so this is sort of an interesting one for me.
This is generally an incredibly hard category because of the way that the body organizes and the way that they submit films
and that's when sometimes you
get like Lunana Yak
in the classroom nomination from Bhutan that
no one saw coming.
So this is a really tough one.
You have Taste of Things.
I guess I'll go Zone of Interest.
I think it's a good bet. Which I still haven't seen.
I was really 50-50 on both of those.
I think that Taste of Things plays a little bit to an older audience, which I think could benefit it, but we shall see.
All right.
Best documentary feature.
Do you want to go first?
Sure.
I'm doing 20 Days in Mariupol again.
That happened with Honeyland a few years ago, where it did both international and documentary.
I think that's possible.
Again, I think it's timely.
Yep.
American Symphony, which is the Matthew Heinemann, Jean-Baptiste documentary that is being pushed
by Netflix and is part of Higher Ground.
And it just...
All the pieces are there.
Exactly.
The Pigeon Tunnel, which is Errol Morris's documentary about John Lee Curray on Apple
TV.
Did you watch this yet?
I've seen 12 minutes of it
because I had a blood oath to see it with my husband.
Not even a blood oath.
It would have been a betrayal of our marriage
to watch it without him.
He's the world's biggest John Lee Correa fan.
And then he had a work thing.
And then he had the Phillies
and we're still working through that.
I see.
It's terrific.
I'm obviously in a vow. Of course. We did it. We knocked out the Phillies and we're still working through that. I see. It's terrific. I'm obviously in a vow.
Of course.
We did it.
We knocked out the Phillies.
You know what, Bobby?
Now Zach needs to double down on his documentaries.
Sorry, Zach, but pigeon tunnel time, brother.
You know, I went to go see The Killer with CR last night and he went to see CR.
He went to see The Killer instead of watching Game 7.
And it was a great choice.
It was a great choice.
I watched all of Game 7.
It was just excruciating.
I can't imagine.
I actually can't imagine.
We've been in that spot.
The juice was just never there.
It was just like never going to happen.
And everyone knew it.
Baseball is the worst sport for that too,
where you're just like,
they don't got it.
We're fucked.
And then three hours later,
you have to be sad.
It's terrible.
It was awful.
Okay.
So you've got 20 days in Mario Pole,
American Symphony, and the Pigeon Tunnel. I'll just say right now, I have those three as well. Okay, so you've got 20 Days in Mariupol, American Symphony, and The Pigeon Tunnel.
Yes.
I'll just say right now, I have those three as well. Okay, great.
So yeah, those were kind of the three locks,
and then I'm getting a little frisky.
Okay.
Two films I haven't seen.
The Eternal Memory?
I have seen this film.
Okay.
I had it on my list all the way up until this morning,
and I took it on.
Interesting.
Okay, well, it's on mine.
It is directed by the Chilean
filmmaker, Mate Alberti, who was nominated
a couple years ago in
this category for The Mole Agent.
And then
I'm going to go with The Mission, which
is the... Maybe, did you see
it at Telluride? I saw it. I'm pretty mixed on it. Yeah, you were
mixed on it. But, like, also, it was at
Telluride. It's the Boys State directors.
And, you know, I don't know.
It's well-made considering what they have.
This is a story about a man, a missionary,
who attempts to bring the doctrine of Christ
to a very remote location that has historically rejected
that kind of missionary work.
Riveting story.
On the page, amazing.
In the execution of the story story there's just a profound
lack of footage so there's a necessity to use animation and narration and interview that didn't
quite get up to where i wanted it to go that being said this is a very greatly admired filmmaking
team um and i think it was out this past fr. I think that's when it opened. Um, very reasonable pick.
Um, I took two chances to on two movies I haven't seen yet.
Um, so in addition to 20 days in Mariupol, the pigeon tunnel and American symphony, I've
got stamped from the beginning, which is, um, based on the bestseller about, um, black
identity and black lives matter.
Um, that Roger Ross Williams is adapting
that is coming to Netflix in November.
And the second film I picked is Orlando,
My Political Biography.
Yeah.
Which has been,
shout out to the publicist working on this movie.
They've been trying to get me to see this movie
for a long time and I haven't seen it yet.
It was on my long list.
And then I realized that I,
like they are working so hard
and I have gotten so many emails about that film that, like, at some point I had to be like, okay, but is this just like my, like, email bubble?
You know, where they are pushing it so hard.
You know, it's Paul B. Preciado.
It's a French documentary about trans and non-binary people.
And it has a very specific lens that it shot through around uh
virginia wolf's 1928 novel orlando biography so that's a very hotly tipped movie sometimes
deeply issue-oriented movies win in this category sometimes very personal stories win because i
think it is a personal story year i'm choosing american sym Symphony as my winner. Yeah, that seems right.
Right now, it just seems like a foregone conclusion.
You're going with that?
Yes, I will.
All right.
Best original screenplay?
Oh my God.
Okay.
I have four.
Better pick your fifth right now.
Okay, I did.
Okay.
So here's what's crazy to me about this category in adapted screenplay
this year that I think
is so fascinating
the adapted screenplay
potential nominees
that I see
feel like they could be
an original screenplay
an original screenplay
feels like they could be
adapted in some ways
here's my five
okay
number five
Anatomy of a Fall
yep
number four Maestro
interesting
number three Past Lives.
Yes.
Number two, The Holdovers.
Yes.
Number one, Barbie.
Yeah.
We have four out of five.
So what do you have different?
I don't have Maestro on original screenplay.
I'm going with May, December.
This was my hardest omission.
Yeah.
Now, I haven't seen May, December yet.
Nor have I.
Todd Haynes is a former nominee in this category for Far From Heaven.
And Todd Haynes is out campaigning already.
Yes.
And this is a movie that probably will get at least one acting nomination.
Not sure where that will come from yet.
We'll talk about it a little bit here.
I had a hard time omitting May December.
I have Barbie winning. I think so. I think it might be the only place. about it a little bit here um i had a hard time omitting may december i have barbie winning i
think so i i i think it might be the only place well one of two places that it wins and we'll
discuss that yeah um okay so we have one difference we've had we've had differences in every category
so far that's good that's this is exactly what we want okay hold on hold on adapt it's green play Hold on. Hold on. Adapted screenplay. I got to pick one. God damn it.
Is it because you're torn between two?
No, I have four options.
I just, there are some things I just don't know how it's going to shake out.
Oh, this is the fun of the game.
And.
We've seen roughly the same amount of movies that are contending.
I've seen all but one of the films.
Okay. There's one that's just sort of a big question mark for me. Okay. But I think I'm going to go with it. Okay.
Why don't you read? Okay. Killers of the Flower Moon. Yes. Oppenheimer. Yes. Poor Things. Yes.
American Fiction. Yes. Zone of Interest. So I have all of us strangers here i that was one of the things that i had that
was the next one on my list i think i don't know how zone of strain i'm how zone of interest is
gonna play and i haven't seen it and it's like the big question mark well one of a couple maestro
is another question mark that i'd like to come back to okay um all of us strangers is on here
on on my like on my yeah or I almost had it in that fifth spot.
Actually, the biggest question to me of the awards season is how will All of Us Strangers play?
Me too.
Is it the after sun of 2024?
Or is it the moonlight of 2024?
Yeah. You know? Right. Is it a, I don't know, is it the moonlight of 2024? Yeah.
You know?
Right.
Is it a, you know, a smaller personal story, beautifully rendered.
Again, how the actor's strike resolves affects its campaigning and how it can go because it is such like, and all of those performances are amazing. And all of those people, Andrew Scott, Claire Foy, Jamie Bell, and Paul Maskell are, I think, beloved.
And, like, have, like, actor on actor support.
And Andrew Haig doesn't have quite the same profile that Eric Roth and Martin Scorsese do.
Or, you know, Christopher Nolan.
Or even, I think, whatfferson is about to have yes
which is an interesting thing that's going on right now like that movie is now like really
kind of moving up we were a little ahead of this a few weeks ago but the thing is is that he he has
it in tv yeah for sure and in media as well i i don't know cord but i he's just well liked in
basically every sphere and and like accomplished in every sphere but he's just well-liked in basically every sphere.
And accomplished in every sphere that he's worked in.
And so now he's making a movie.
So, yeah.
I have American Fiction winning.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
I think my gut was Killers, so I'll go with Killers.
Okay.
Could see that.
Best Supporting Actress.
Okay.
Hold on.
I'm scrolling. I'm going to go first. No, I have one more that I Best supporting actress. Okay. Hold on. I'm scrolling.
I'm going to go first.
No, I have one more that I have to pick.
Fuck.
I thought you do your homework.
What happened here?
I do.
I have so many options.
So defensive.
I did my homework.
And you're also not letting me talk about things.
Bobby.
I thought that this could be like a discussion.
And it has been a discussion.
I promise.
It is a podcast.
My fifth one. What's going on with discussion, I promise. Well, so. It is a podcast. My fifth one.
If it's going on with you, it's going to be okay.
You're just really annoying me right now.
Like this is most of the time, it's like a bit.
Yeah, not now.
And right now, you're just not doing it the way I want you to do it.
And I like, this is really frustrating for me.
Okay, I'll step back.
You do what you need to do.
All right, so I have four that I'm step back. You do what you need to do.
All right, so I have four that I'm confident in,
and then one I'd like to talk about.
Okay.
And you're already picked,
so you don't have to influence me.
Okay.
We'll talk it out,
because that's what podcasting is about.
Okay.
Emily Blunt Oppenheimer.
Yes.
This is fucking insane, by the way. And I love Emily Blunt as an actor.
Sneak peek.
Next week, we're going to talk at length about Emily Blunt's career.
She is like one of the locks
for Oppenheimer.
You have to
come to terms with the Emily Blunt situation
in Oppenheimer. You have to come to terms
with it. But it's such a...
Honestly, I don't think you do. I think you just need
to stay this mad. It's just so
disrespectful. It's just so disrespectful.
It's nonsense. It's disrespectful to everyone, including Emily Blunt, including Oppenheimer's wife, who I don't know what her real name was.
Is it disrespectful to J. Robert Oppenheimer?
No, it's probably fine for him.
Okay.
I've never seen you like this.
I'm astounded.
It's a comedy.
This is a very normal podcast and you, something has happened.
Did you take ayahuasca?
No.
Wait, because I'm angry or because I'm distressed?
Distressed.
Anger I have encountered many a time.
The Emily Blunt Oppenheimer thing is just.
You're kind of like her sitting on the back bench in that interrogation room.
It makes me. Just like turning into yourself. It just makes me really angry. That's a bad part. just you're kind of like her sitting on the back bench in that interrogation room just like
turning into yourself it just makes me really angry that's a bad part and a fine performance
in like the one of the more regrettable parts of a good movie but that sucks and it just i like
hate this like why you know i hate it on a large level I hate it on
looks like the the woman the wife always gets nominated and supporting actress in the biopic
thing you know we've done that since forever you're not wrong I hate it on the specific level
of like this sucked and be more respectful to Emily Blunt anyway I mean she's a woman with
agency who took the part and performed in the film. Because she wanted an Oscar and to be in a Christopher Nolan film.
Then she's going to pay the price by getting dinged by you and acclaimed by everyone else.
Okay.
I'm not dinging her as a person or in her career.
I want more for her.
What a sad fate to have won an Academy Award and be proclaimed one of the great actresses by all your peers.
I know. It's a tough feat, isn't it? the great actresses by all your peers. I know.
It's a tough beat,
isn't it?
It's really.
What a hard life.
It sucks.
What is it?
What's their code?
Like,
bring the sheets in?
What is that about?
Oh my God.
I'm moving on.
Just keep going.
You gotta just get past it.
Get better code.
Just get past it.
I gotta,
I gotta.
You've chosen one nominee for best supporting actress you should revisit oppenheimer i think it's something i've been thinking about
but i just i never thought about that till right now but like bring in the sheets i mean i guess
that like i guess that's one of the many factually accurate aspects of Oppenheimer the film.
Did you get a good night of sleep last night?
Scientists are not the most colorful people, it turns out.
Okay.
Would you like to continue reading potential nominees off for this fake game?
Okay, Divine Joy Randolph for The Holdover is a film I haven't seen.
Okay.
But I really like Divine Joy Randolph.
Okay.
Did you like her work in The Idol? No, I didn haven't seen. Okay. But I really like Divine Joy Randolph. Okay. Did you like her work in The Idol?
No, I didn't watch that.
Okay.
But I really liked her work in High Fidelity, the TV show.
I liked that too.
Yeah, that was good.
She's wonderful.
America Ferreira, Barbie.
Got her.
And Jodie Foster, Nyad.
You know, I thought that was a zag.
Wait, did you say five?
No, I said four. Oh, you're waiting to make a fifth. Yeah. I thought that Jodie Foster was going to be a zag. Wait, did you say five? No, I said four.
Oh, you're waiting to make a fifth.
Yeah.
I thought that Jodie Foster was going to be a zag.
I have Jodie Foster as well.
Yeah, that is, as soon as I saw Nyad,
I was like, oh, wow, Jodie Foster
is like probably going to win an Oscar.
This is...
I wonder, it's an interesting test
of like the new Hollywood versus the old Hollywood.
In the old days, Jodie Foster
definitely getting nominated for that movie.
Yeah.
As is Annette Bening.
In the new days, I don't know.
I think, not to spoil anything, but the new days is that Jodie Foster does get as is Annette Bening in the new days I don't know I think not
to spoil anything but the new days is that Jodie Foster does get nominated and Annette Bening does
not for her uh her Oscar role anyway okay so number five I I would say that conventional wisdom here
is that it's gonna go to Danielle Brooks for the color purple or that is like one piece of conventional wisdom that that's very possible.
You and I have not seen Color Purple.
I don't think anyone's seen Color Purple.
It hasn't been released.
It's not coming out till like Christmas, basically,
which is a tricky time for Oscar winners in the last few years.
It's a little bit late to get things started. And so I just, I don't know what to do with the color purple.
So you're not choosing Danielle Brooks?
No, I think I am.
Okay.
I'm not.
I think I am.
Because everyone else, I've got like one, two, three, four, five, six.
I've got six people here that i could pick and some of them are just kind of
like oscar stalwarts you know i'm going with an oscar stalwart you think they're just going to
throw it to julianne moore i do okay well go with it i think that that makes it interesting based on
the press out of the film yeah there's a particular appreciation for what she's up to she's very seasoned at this very
discreet form of drama meets melodrama that haynes does so well that he did with her and far from
heaven yeah no it feels like it was very complicated number one on my on you know my
options so i get it and i guess just for the sake of being interesting um now i i have divine joy
randolph winning so do i now i feel like emily
blunt's gonna win but for some reason i'm trying to manifest that not to be the case just to keep
you on the rails here for the next two or three years on this pod um do you think that do you
think do you think emily blunt's actually gonna win and you're just trying to manifest something
new i guess if it's just like oppenheimer all the like full sweep, like everything everywhere. That is in play.
I think it is in play as well, but...
I don't know if it's likely.
I think that they're going to make an effort to spread it around
because this is actually a pretty good Oscar year, it feels like.
Yeah.
You know, a lot of times we come through and we're like negging stuff
and we're like, oh, we got to deal with this narrative
for the next whatever few months.
This is honestly a pretty good year.
Like a year that has...
I agree.
Oppenheimer, barbie poor things
zone of interest and killers of the flower moon that's fucking good so i can't i'm definitely
not going to do that right here where i'm like how did we get here but you could find a world
where just the oppenheimer machine especially if the strike doesn't get resolved just rolls on down
the line um okay let's do supporting actor okay Okay. What's your, what was your fifth, Sean?
My fifth was Julianne Moore.
So I had America Ferreira,
Julianne Moore,
Jodie Foster,
Emily Blunt,
and Divine Joy Randolph.
My hardest omission
was Cara Jade Myers,
which I feel like
there could be
an interesting campaign for her
if she's allowed to campaign.
Because Killers of the Flower Moon,
her, you know,
Lily Gladstone
moving into actress
opens up a spot
for that film to
kind of broaden the support for it. I don't think it's going to happen, but you could see a campaign
being run there. I mean, I have Vanessa Kirby. I've got Viola Davis. I mean, I am not picking
these people, but Vanessa Kirby seemed like an option. Viola Davis seemed like an option.
Claire Foy was nominated in supporting performance at the Gotham. I could see it. And I could see it as well.
Again, another person.
I also thought she was extraordinary.
I prefer Jamie Bell's performance, personally.
I think they were both extraordinary.
I think that one was written in a way that is considered...
You know, I've heard some LGBTQ critics come out
kind of against this movie.
That it feel like young LGBTQ critics
feel like it is made from an older perspective,
like a Gen X coming out story in some ways.
I mean, it definitely is.
And it's like that is in the text.
And that's an interesting divide.
I don't know how much that means for the Academy Awards.
But that is fascinating because I feel like the Claire Foy stuff feels very like the 1996 version of a coming out movie.
And the Jamie Bell stuff feels like the 2023 version.
And it feels like a purposeful choice also i i have read from a lot of queer people that the the jamie what the jamie bell character
does um in that film is is kind of like the true emotional like like opening of the of the whole
movie and is and is so significant it was it was for me yeah of course it is i mean that's like
when i was talking though i think i actually i started crying at a claire foy thing and then you know
mother of a son over here yeah and then kept crying throughout the whole thing so an interesting
movie to discuss when the world can see it yeah okay let's do supporting actor think i'm going
first now so i have mark ruffalo for poor things, I kind of want to take a chance here, but I feel like it's going to be stupid.
Okay.
But I'm going to, this is not the chance.
This is the safe route.
It's Willem Dafoe and Poor Things.
Oh, interesting.
So you're just playing both and you'll...
I feel like they're going to split and Ruffalo's going to get the nomination.
But I'm just playing it safe.
I think I'm going with Ruffalo, but I don't have Dafoe.
Okay.
Ryan Gosling, of course, and Barbie.
Sure.
Robert De Niro in Killers of the Flower Moon.
Yes.
And Robert Downey Jr. in Oppenheimer.
Yeah.
So we matched on four of five.
Four of the five.
And there is that spot.
What I really wanted to do, and this is a blind faith thing, is Jeremy Allen White in
The Iron Claw.
Oh, interesting.
Because the murmurs are starting.
It's another movie much like the way you just described The Color Purple, where it's not out until Christmas.
I think it's having a premiere in Texas in November.
I'll bet it is.
But I don't know when we're going to see that movie.
It's got an interesting cast.
Zac Efron's playing sort of the lead.
Jeremy Allen White coming off the bear.
Apparently a very strong performance as one of the one Erics.
And some Instagram posts.
And a rise in fame is how I will describe it.
So who's your fifth?
I think I'm going to get a little strategic here.
And I'm going to do Coleman Domingo for the color purple.
Interesting.
Because this happens sometimes.
Yeah.
Oh, interesting.
When actor and actress are really crowded and
there's someone you really like
or someone that the Academy really likes
or the actors really like
and there's not quite enough room
but they've got another performance.
So interesting we did the same thing
because I bumped him out of actor too.
Yeah.
Then you stick it in
and I haven't seen Rustam yet.
I'm seeing it this week.
But people still feel the goodwill for the actor,
in this case, Colman Domingo, who I also feel goodwill for. So I can just kind of see it
happening that way. Who do you have winning? Gosling. I have Robert Downey Jr. Yeah, I think
that's right. And I'm just voting my heart here, making it interesting. He was also nominated for
a Gotham award.rian gosling i
thought that was ridiculous i was like what is the point of this there's no cap it's like an
award show that goes out of its way to recognize you know independent and smaller underseen work
and then we're getting we're putting barbie out here that was weird you you're that's a real get
off my lawn territory from you best actress uh you. Best actress. You read first. Okay.
This is an absolute
gauntlet.
Yeah.
These are great parts
and great performances.
Yeah.
All right.
I'm just going with
my gut on this.
Okay.
I am doing
Lily Gladstone,
Killers of the Flower Moon.
We match.
Emma Stone,
Poor Things.
We match.
Margot Robbie,
Barbie.
We match.
Carrie Mulligan,
Maestro. We match. Greta Lee, Barbie. We match. Carey Mulligan, Maestro.
We match.
Greta Lee, Past Lives.
I have Sondra Holler.
So Sondra Holler has been floating at like six on every list that I had.
I also considered her for zone of interest, for supporting actress.
I did too.
For the same reasons of she doesn't quite make it.
Yeah, for Coleman Domingo.
And I just wasn't totally sure
here's the thing with her she can campaign and she has been here's the here is the counter thing
and i know it's really early days and you and i have talked about it have you heard anyone talking
about of anatomy of a fall it's only open in like a very select number of theaters yeah but like
you know it's just like the awareness is like not there.
It's weirdly one of those things where I think they got to get it on Hulu like in January.
Yeah.
So that people start talking about it.
Because once you've seen it, you will have a lot to say about it.
But if you have not, it's just another French courtroom movie.
Right.
That's all you know about it.
Starring the woman from Tony Airdman, if you even know what that is.
I mean, this is kind of, yeah.
That is a challenge.
Greta Lee is my hardest omission.
I found your discussion of Greta Lee and her work on The Morning Show on the Bill Simmons podcast absolutely delightful.
Thank you.
You steering Bill into safe harbor on past lives, well done.
Thank you so much.
Listen, I'm just out here doing the work for Greta Lee.
I love Greta Lee, and I love her in that movie.
I'm concerned about past lives
is what I'll say.
Wow.
That's what I'll say.
Best actor.
I'll go first.
Okay.
Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on.
What did we even do here?
Why did I even share
a document with you?
This is really stressful.
Oh my God.
And I told,
you texted me yesterday about Best Picture.
Uh-huh.
It was in a screening.
So when I got out, I responded that Best Actor was also causing me a lot of strife.
You did.
What did you screen?
I saw Salt Burn.
Oh, right.
That's right.
You told me already.
Which has not yet been mentioned.
Hasn't been mentioned.
Interesting.
You know what?
I don't know whether I'm allowed to share my reaction.
Anyway.
It's played festivals.
Oh, so I had a great time.
Okay.
But I was discussing this category and I just, there are a lot of, I don't know how the fifth one is going to net out.
This is my biggest risk is what I'll tell you.
Okay.
Hang on.
I don't think either of you locked your winner for best actress.
Oh, we didn't.
We didn't.
Thank you.
Look at that production in real time.
Thank God. Wow.
Thank God you're here, Robert.
Got to do it every once in a while.
Once a year, produce.
Bob, you're invaluable.
Is that what you're hunting for?
Just getting some jokes off.
Okay, best actress. i have emma stone i don't know
if i don't know i don't feel good about it at all i i my gut was gonna go lily gladstone and also
not feel good about it not that i i love lily gladstone's performance and i hope that she wins
but just in terms of picking the right thing i don't feel good about it okay um but i'll go with
it just to make it interesting are we sure it's not carrie mulligan okay you want to talk about like
that's a great lead-in into best actor and i don't know i i'm gonna take my risk and
i don't know what to do about maestro i don't know what to do about it i know what to do about Maestro. I don't know what to do about it. I know what to do. You do?
I do.
Okay.
I have, I'll read my list if you want.
Okay.
I'll tell you what, I have Bradley Cooper nominated for Best Actor,
an Academy Award for Best Actor for Bradley.
Okay.
I have Leonardo DiCaprio.
Sure.
Andrew Scott from All of Us Strangers.
Yep.
Cillian Murphy.
Yes.
From Oppenheimer, which I believe is a lockety lock lock lock and jeffrey
wright now i have omitted paul giamatti which i think is possibly a suicidal gesture in this
act because i feel like it's on a silver platter for him but i'm choosing to believe that the
andrew scott appreciation society will emerge? So I also have Andrew Scott.
Okay.
And I am choosing to believe that the Appreciation Society will emerge.
I have him at the expense of Bradley Cooper.
And you have Giamatti in Cooper's spot.
And I have Giamatti in Cooper's spot.
And the reason that I have that is a little bit because of the rollout of the film and the fact that bradley cooper has not
been able to promote it as a director as a writer you know it is anything because he's still on
strike um and also because they are pushing carrie mulligan so hard carrie mulligan is on the cover
of vogue this month she they did it before the strike. But, you know, it's the poster is of Carrie Mulligan's character.
I think, you know, without spoiling too much of the movie, that reflects the movie in a lot of ways.
But they're really pushing Carrie Mulligan.
And it seems like he's sort of strategically like taking a backseat in some ways which i would but i think he's being very
careful to not violate specific promotional rules very careful i think if i had to psychologize
bradley cooper that's probably eating him up because he's very proud and very excited and
that is why he has been very much in the pages of all of my favorite tabloids in the past several months.
And he also did the voiceover for the last Eagles game, which he does from time to time, but usually just for playoffs.
And, you know, like on Jam Session, we are tracking every single thing that Bradley Cooper does.
And I just know to everyone that Maestro is coming out on Netflix in December.
I think he also should be recognized for his work as Rocket Raccoon
in Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3.
Standout performance.
I've chosen Jeffrey Wright to win,
which is easily my biggest risk.
Wow.
Easily my biggest risk.
Listen, I think he's definitely a lock for nomination.
I still haven't seen this film.
Zach saw it this morning and I couldn't go
because I had to record this podcast,
which I'm kind of pissed about.
But what an incredible experience you're having.
I'm going with Cillian Murphy.
That's what I think is going to happen,
but is not fun to say.
If Jeffrey Wright wins, that would be wonderful.
I still have not seen that movie,
but I love Jeffrey Wright, the actor.
He's got kind of like the look and the career,
and I think that they're going to look for a way
to recognize this film.
Now, I've chosen it to win in two categories,
and it may not.
That may have been a little bold
to either select Jeffrey Wright or screenplay.
I think it's going to win one of the two.
Just putting that out there.
Okay.
Amanda, can you do your last two nominations for me?
Leo, Cillian Murphy, Jeffrey Wright.
Andrew Scott and Paul Giamatti.
Okay, thank you. Best director. You want me to go? No, Killian Murphy, Jeffrey Wright. Andrew Scott, and Paul Giamatti. Okay.
Thank you.
Best director.
You want me to go?
No, I'll go.
Martin Scorsese,
Bradley Cooper,
Yorgos Lanthimos,
Greta Gerwig,
Christopher Nolan.
This is the first category
that we match on.
Where we're five for five.
This is the first time
we match on a category.
Look at that.
It took nine categories.
Yeah.
Well.
And are we going to
match on the winner?
I would love, I think we will and i
would love for you to have the opportunity to say his name aloud i think it's christopher nolan as
do i now there is a world in which martin scorsese is recognized for his greatness and granted a
second oscar in this category i gotta be honest a lot of people just feeling the need to let us know on twitter that
they felt like martin scorsese uh took too long um with killers of the flower moon i i didn't ask
a single person i sat down with chris yesterday to watch the killer and he turned to me and he was
like you've been checking out the killers of the flower moon discourse i was like i'm good like i'm
good i'm really good I just like
every single person
it's just like
a rare miss
for the goat
it's like people
like letting me know
on Twitter
that that is
respectfully
I did not ask
anything I tweeted
about kills of the flower moon
I just immediately
muted the conversation
so I don't see the feedback
but thanks to everyone
who got in touch
I want to thank the person
who let me know about
the touch a truck program
in Los Angeles
that's great it's really nice yeah that's wonderful for Knox okay who got in touch. I want to thank the person who let me know about the Touch a Truck program in Los Angeles.
That's great.
It's really nice.
Yeah, it's wonderful for Knox.
Okay.
Best picture.
Oh, hold on.
Okay.
I have one, two, three. You're really mad at me now.
Five, six, seven, eight.
I have eight
that I feel confident in.
This is me smashing my head
on my phone.
Oh, I thought that was an accident.
No.
And I have two. I thought that this was going to be a little bit more of a you know community building exercise and you are
just i support you in all things you can't believe how much i have your back being a jerk you think
i don't but i am i'm fully behind you except when when the mics are on okay i i have my 10.
I don't know if I have my 10.
I have my 9.
And I don't know what to do about number 10.
I'm going to read mine aloud.
Okay.
I've taken one bold.
I've made one bold choice here.
Okay.
And it's not really in concert with a previous choice, but I'm going to share it with you.
Okay.
The holdovers.
Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse. Okay. Past lives. Sure. The zone of you. Okay. The Holdovers. Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse. Okay.
Past Lives. Sure. The Zone of Interest. Okay. American Fiction. Okay. Maestro. Okay. Killers of the Flower Moon. Yeah. Poor Things, Barbie, and Oppenheimer. Wait, can you read it again?
The Holdovers, Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse, Past Lives, The Zone of Interest, American Fiction, Maestro, Killers of the Flower Moon, Poor Things, Barbie, and Oppenheimer.
Okay, we have eight of ten.
Okay.
And I'm going to choose...
Hold on one second.
I'm looking for consistency on my own picks.
Okay, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to make it interesting.
Oppenheimer, Killers of the Flower moon poor things barbie american fiction the
holdovers maestro past lives all of us strangers and anatomy of a fall my two hardest omissions
were anatomy of a fall in all of us strangers i've taken taken risks here so you're you don't
have across the spider verse and what else zone of interest which i took in international film i have no idea what's going on what i just i
i have i have no idea and i had it as a possibility and a number of things you know what one thing
that is really tricky too is hardest omission for director for me was jonathan glazer yeah there's a
world where this you know art house adaptation of a a Martin Amis novel is so widely acclaimed.
And frankly,
I don't mean this to sound glib,
but I think it is meaningful.
The state of the world right now
and the Israel-Palestine-Hamas situation
I think will contribute
to some of the conversation about this film
because it is a story about World War II and a story about the concentration camps and those responsible.
So I actually think that that does inform, like these are moments in time.
That's what they're capturing.
They're capturing the conversation on these films.
So that's not why I picked it specifically, but I don't think that that is necessarily... You can't discount that.
I was choosing between that and Anatomy of a Fall.
And I think, honestly,
because I already picked Zone of Interest
in International Feature,
and because you had it,
I just did it for some variety.
I could be very wrong.
I think everything that you're saying,
Jonathan Glazer makes a lot of sense.
As a director of Wildcard,
there's always an international element to that.
Yes, I think Y your ghost is kind of filling
that spot right now
but maybe that
won't be the case.
Anyway.
How do you feel?
Awful.
Okay.
I think we did a good job.
Okay.
Did either of you
commit to a winner?
Oh Oppenheimer.
Oppenheimer.
Oppenheimer
and Christopher Nolan
winning?
What a time to be you.
What do you mean?
I just,
all your interests,
your belief in the great men,
J. Robert Oppenheimer
and Christopher Nolan
and Senator from Massachusetts,
John F. Kennedy.
When you're on your deathbed,
do you think you'll look back
and think,
why was I so rude to Sean?
No, I won't all all that
we could have shared yeah all that this this great friendship this podcast experience could have been
because you know that this is the truest expression of my affection you know that i'm only really mean
to the people i love um based on other interactions i would say that's debatable but with the exception of my son
I'm nice to him
that's true
yeah
that is a true affection
Bob
any thoughts
any predictions
you want to make here
no thoughts
no
do you feel like
creating the big picture
is sort of like
Oppenheimer
creating the atom bomb
that you have lost control
of its use in the world
I mean I know that to be
true i i of course i i have no idea how i've become like the villain of the show that i started i just
it's just fascinating to me i don't know what i did the villain of the show that i started there
you watched a lot of wwe i'm like dr doom you know? Like, I thought I could envision a greater society.
Right.
You're like Jay Rapper and Oppenheimer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The truth is, is I am like the killer.
Right.
You are.
I am like that guy.
Yeah.
I'm just eating hard-boiled eggs in cars.
And I'm just like Albert Einstein being like, what hell we've unleashed upon the world.
It's your problem now.
And then toddling off in a sweater.
Who's Chris? Emily Blunt and Oppenheimer off in a sweater who's chris uh emily blunt in
oppenheimer i think yeah but he's gonna win an oscar so who are you that's for you to decide
you'll be hard no i i think i'm damon i guess you're a young promising junior senator from
massachusetts are you rami malik robert i've totally forgot to bring up rami malik when
clowning you last time.
That's so great.
The entire plot of Oppenheimer depends on Rami Malek with a clipboard,
then showing up and like talking into a microphone.
You think you're doing a good bit, but you are clowning yourself so hard,
so hard with the anti-Oppenheimer rhetoric.
It's a good movie.
It's just really funny that you
love it so much you love it
this people don't know this but this pod was recorded 11 30 p.m after amanda's been drinking
for the last seven or eight hours this is truly a standout performance um thanks guys thanks thanks
so much for uh for participating in this game.
I'm sure that the winner
will be well-deserved
and we'll have a great plan
for how to inflict pain
upon the other person.
Let's go to my conversation now
with Alex Ross-Perry. Okay, now returning for the eighth time on The Big Picture.
Did you know that, Alex?
This is your eighth appearance.
No, I did not.
It's Alex Ross-Perry.
Thank you for being here.
Happy to.
I'd like to speak to you like once a year, twice a year in this format.
We usually have like a very defined approach.
You do some research.
You prepare.
I give you a prompt of some kind.
Maybe there's a new film that it's pegged to.
I thought we would dispense with all of that today.
I just want to, I just asked the people, what do you want to hear from Alex?
And you've become a legendary podcast guest, not just on this show, but on other shows
across the entire podcast universe, especially Blank Check.
I would say only Blank Check. I don't think there's a third one well that's i mean there's other movie podcasts than just us in blank check i didn't know that if there are i haven't heard
about them i um it is something i've become quite acclaimed for like on the street outside of a movie
theater and i want to respect that bond between guest and audience, but also, um, you know, I feel like
in kind of ringer terms, like, you know, Chuck Klosterman will just like show up on stuff and
you always want to hear what he's thinking. I like the idea of occupying like a big picture,
uh, role such as that. Almost the, from the first time you sat down in the studio,
I think that flashed on my mind. I was like, wow, I could probably talk to this guy like once every
two weeks about movies and about what's going on with him. And
lo and behold, you've lived up to it. Yes. Well, that's typically just called being friends.
I don't know about that, though. This is the closest I get.
Yeah, well, I'm happy to. And yes, we've failed to come up with anything
specific about what's going on, but that means we can just talk about what's going on.
It is October and you are i think widely
considered a horror expert and deep enthusiast so a lot of the questions are very horror related
are you cool with that i guess so i mean it's fun to talk about i think a lot of that is from
talking about it with you and doing the halloween episode of playing check which i again like people
yell from a moving car at me about like once a week. Um,
but, uh, yeah, I mean, it's on mind right now, but I also feel like not, I mean, you were saying,
uh, maybe it's like a bad year for horror. So it's not like it's on mine because it's interesting.
It's just like, maybe it's an interesting version of the kind of persistent crisis of things not being very good these days.
Do you feel that?
Do you feel that acutely right now?
Oh, definitely.
Do you not?
Well, I've been trying to have a positive spirit in the second half of 2023.
I made a promise to myself after seeing the film Fast X that I can't let myself slip down into that hole anymore. But sometimes, especially this time of year, because you know I care about especially horror
as much as you do. And honestly, horror in theory should be thriving creatively right now because
it's one of the only solvent movie genres. And it's been pretty up and down.
I don't disagree. And I also can't really tell where the difference is between
do we are we missing like the kind of mainstream big ish budget horror or are we missing the sort
of hidden quality jump of like the low budget deep cut shutter original horror like which one
or and maybe both aren't hitting on all cylinders this year.
It's possible.
It's just a random chance that neither of those are hitting that hard.
But that is a good segue to the first question,
actually.
So Guilherme asks,
the state of classic horror franchise icons,
can Michael Jason Leatherhead still scare or have we seen too much of them?
Did he say Leatherhead or is that you misreading it?
It's written Leatherhead.
Sorry, Leatherface.
Leatherhead is what's written down in the doc.
Bobby, come on.
We got to edit these questions.
I'm sorry.
I'll wear that one.
That one's on me.
Maybe he's talking about the old-timey George Clooney football horror franchise.
Well done.
I mean, we haven't seen
Jason in a long time.
So I feel like that's
this kind of like
endlessly publicly
negotiated rights
problem.
Well, let me ask this
like what do you
like what do you think
people want from
these characters?
Like because my take
is.
I kind of feel like the um the exorcist debacle
has more or less proved that like the legacy sequel horror thing maybe was like a one-trick
pony that worked with halloween and like kind of didn't work with texas chainsaw and kind of
didn't work with the exorcist and i just can can't figure out, like, in the 2000s, right, you did all of the straight remakes,
which were successful,
not really good,
and now all those movies
look kind of good again.
Like, I don't know if you ever watch,
get into, like, a run of 2000s remakes.
They're generally pretty solid.
I have kind of an aversion
to the Marcus Nispel era
of horror movies.
It's not really my thing,
but I have heard,
you're not the first person I've heard say that.
I mean, they're really slick,
which is something I don't really like about them
because that's not what I want from those franchises.
I think in retrospect,
they look a lot shittier than slick.
Maybe it was slick at the time
and now it just looks,
like, I feel like all those movies now,
like not the like remake of John Carpenter's The Fog, but, like, The Hills Have Eyes, like, Rob Zombie's Halloween.
Like, all these movies look pretty solid, you know, coming up on 20 years hence.
I think that, I'm not sure that there's something specific that I want from those characters or even those franchises.
I think the other exception to the rule, though, is that the screen movies are working, you know, people like them. They're going to see
them. Your mileage may vary on how much you like the most recent couple, but I liked them well
enough. Like I would happily go see one of those movies once every two or three years. And it's,
they're using the characters from the first iteration of the story, but they're not centered around those characters.
And that's obviously something that Halloween tried to do too,
to some extent, and in some cases was successful,
in some cases not.
The Exorcist, it felt like there was supposed to be
more of a role for the legacy part of the legacy sequel.
And then in the execution, that kind of got screwed up somehow.
So I think it's a little bit of a question of
balance with jason like i don't jason is jason like if you make a friday the 13th movie it can't
not be jason vorhees right well i mean no obviously not but like for me the question is like
it's this inherent tension between like what it means to be these franchises, which is, in the case of Friday the 13th, you make basically one a year until people stop caring.
And in the case of The Exorcist or The Omen, you make a few.
Some of them are kind of weird.
Some are better than others.
And then that's it.
And Scream's a great example.
They can't just make one of these
every 18 months forever, right?
Like nobody's going to want Scream 9 in four years.
But like the Halloween thing is like,
yeah, I mean, just because nothing works that way.
Nothing is like, well, in perpetuity,
this will always be exactly what audiences want
as the budgets get bigger
because the actors that now are associated with it have to renegotiate like right right that's not really what people want but they also
you know maybe don't necessarily want the halloween thing where it's like we're just doing
three more screams and then someone else is going to do it and when this news came out recently of
like yeah they're shopping the rights to halloween again people were just like no why like nobody
wants this like Like, true.
And then it's like, oh, it's a bidding war.
People are going crazy to get these rights.
And fans are just like, we don't want this.
We don't want this at all.
Is that just makes me just makes me curious of like, for all these things, like all these
franchises that are important to the horror genre, like, what do they think we want?
Like, what do the people making these decisions
and spending hundreds of millions of dollars
think that fans want?
And it seems increasingly like that is undeniably
completely out of lockstep
with what people actually would want.
This is an incredible lead into JR's next question,
which is what horror franchises would actually benefit
from an auteur directed reboot?
All of them.
Yeah.
I mean, like...
That's what's missing.
Just imagine, like, the sort of...
I mean, James Bond's maybe, like, a weird example, but, like, just imagine the sort of excitement if it was, like, what I feel like did kind of happen, like, a little bit in the 2000s, where it's, like, this person is going to do this thing. You know, if it was like, not that he would do this, but if it was like,
Ty West is doing Friday the 13th, people would be like, I'm listening.
They wouldn't go like, okay, so it's just going to be some like pandering piece of shit
that's not satisfying.
They'd be like, I'm listening.
I'm deeply intrigued.
Or if, you know, whatever, if it was like, take any, you know vhs segment director and be like they're
making the nightmare on elm you'd be like i'm i'm listening like this this is of interest to me
instead of like yeah it's someone who's like on the third decade of their established career and
they're just they've always been a fan and they just want to stab at it like i mean i feel like
the scream kind of did this where it's like people from literally vhs i think like yeah radio silence
yeah like they're they're doing it and again they didn't like reinvent the wheel but it was more like
okay so that's that's interesting that's that's something new yeah i just feel like new energy
but this is like part of a bigger problem that you're obviously aware of because you um bemoan
it constantly where it's like the question is actually like what if studios just gave new filmmakers freedom to do their version of things
which increasingly is just like quite simply not something people are willing to do even at the
levels of these kinds of things like what do you have to lose from being like all right ty like
15 million dollars go make a friday like what do you have to lose from that it will be better
than most other movies not again not that he would want to do that but like
i don't know i mean i honestly asked myself that question like give us a peek into the psychology
there like you've been in those kinds of meetings you've you know you you know what it's like to
kind of pitch your vision for something like that like what what are you being told well you're
being told a bunch of lies and they're hoping that
you don't notice that you're being lied to and then you see the final product and you're like
oh so that was a lie like i went several rounds on like a fairly high profile horror remake a
couple of years ago that like you know like would have been cool and everything i was
saying i was like this is what it has to be this like the script is fine but like it misses what's
interesting about the source material there's this take there's that take you go in this direction
and then the feedback was basically like yeah they think the script's pretty good how it is
and i was like but this is a really important thing this can't just be pretty good how it is. And I was like, but this is a really important thing. This can't just be pretty good.
And then the movie came out
and it was absolutely despised.
And I was like, yeah,
I mean, they just made
that terrible script
that nobody was like,
yeah, we should maybe get this right
rather than like,
this is a good 110-minute version
of this beloved book
or film remake
that I'm being coy about
so as to not dismerge
and belittle the people who did actually work on it.
But it was like, they just
weren't interested in being like, yeah, we just want to get it
right. They were like, we just want to make it now.
And this title has value
to us and we'll just make it now.
And that kind of seems like that is the guiding
principle a lot of the time.
And, you know, like
you can just tell when something is created
with some measure of artistic credibility or freedom, for better or worse.
And I feel like what I intermittently really like about the David Gordon Green Halloween movies is you're like, there are choices in these movies.
Some of these choices feel, like, absolutely bizarre and, like, so not vetted by committee.
And that's what I liked about parts of all of those movies,
especially the second and third,
where it's like, these are choices.
And you watch The Exorcist and you're like,
really not seeing a lot of choices here.
Like this kind of feels like,
all right guys, like we spent $400 million on this.
Let's not fuck it up.
It's amazing though how that can lead to a fuck up
more so than The Other Direction.
Well, that's what happens 99 out of 100 times,
and people never really seem to learn that.
It's depressing.
This is somewhat related to what you're describing too.
Tyler asks,
I would love to hear what Alex thinks of the new WGA deal
and what it will do to the feature film industry
and any five-year retrospective thoughts on Her Smell,
which is still great, which is, of course, your film.
The WGA deal, does that impact you in a meaningful way?
Have you dug into the details of the deal?
Yeah.
Well, it impacts me in a meaningful way
because I got to or had to get back to work,
which I was telling Bobby in the elevators,
what I'm not doing today
since you didn't let me zoom in from my house.
We're asking for one hour of your time, Alex.
Well, it's not an hour. I're asking for one hour of your time, Alex. Is it really?
Well, it's not an hour.
I had to leave 45 minutes before the time.
We're asking for one hour and 49 minutes of your time to hold your belt as the podcast guest king.
That would be, yes.
That would be true if I was a different person with a better work ethic.
But I'm not.
And I mean, let me ask this. And this is something that, like, I became very aware of because 90% of my conversations with adults these days are people on the playground who do not work in the entertainment industry.
What do you, like, and you do, but, like, not in this capacity.
Like, what do you think of what happened?
Or what do you actually think the real issues were not like in the public litigation but like what do you think
were the problems with like union infrastructure moving forward into the next era because my
conversations with people on the like you know i talk to people on the playground and i would say
this is what i'm doing oh yeah i heard about that that's about ai right and i just was like god
people like this we've like this is so fucking pathetic.
This has become what the average person who reads the news thinks is happening.
Right.
I wouldn't suppose to know what the issue is with the union infrastructure.
I do think that these disputes ultimately always boil down to money and the way that people are compensated ultimately.
And there are, of course, other issues that are at, you know, that are related, but like the number of people working
in a writer's room on a TV show is actually a money, an issue about money. It's not an issue
about people like jobs equals money. And so the studios were trying to hold as much money as
possible. The union's trying to get as much money as possible. However, you define that and create
some protections for themselves. Um, i think people for the most part
knew that uh especially i mean in la me being on the playground is different because most of the
people i'm talking to on the playground are in the business um but reason enough not to live there in
my opinion possibly sometimes those are good conversations sometimes they're not um problem
is i'm having those conversations for the previous eight hours right good point i mean in some some
ways i am too.
So it's, it's, it's a hamster wheel, but. Do you ask people on the playground what the last great thing they watched was? When, when you're. No, but I love to ask their kids, honestly,
that's where I'm at now. I want to know what their kids are into. I don't think that people
feel like they have any clarity on like whether things were resolved or not from the kind of like
general public's perspective. But the question of the writers is like as a as a feature film writer is your
career meaningfully different is it going to be improved like i don't how has it been being back
to work i guess is a way of asking it well in some of the jobs i have going on it's great just
because i i like being paid to do work and I like having something to do.
This is like, it's very complex and I don't want to speak for other people's experience,
but I don't work in TV.
I don't think about it as a career and I will not ever get to a point where that dictates professional choices or opportunities for me.
So the idea of a writer's room is something I don't understand.
And I wish everyone the best and I hope that this was a wonderful resolution for people who idea of a writer's room is something I don't understand. And I wish everyone the best. And I hope that this was a wonderful resolution for people who
work in a writer's room. But like two things have to be understood, which I feel like we're sort of
consistently lost in the messaging of all this. One is that even when you're talking about budgets
of like 20, 40, a hundred million dollars on a movie or on a series these people want to cut every corner like they
want to save pennies on a 50 million dollar budget and you and i might think that's insane
and for them it's like why would we have four writers if we can have three like that's just
that's 65 000 less we have to spend and it it's like, on a $50 million series?
Like, who cares?
And they're like, well, yeah, everything counts.
So like the sort of greed and corner cutting
cannot be overstated.
Like you cannot, I was working on something once
that I ended up not doing,
partially because of this blow up I'm about to summarize,
but like, I was working on something
and I was advocating for shooting it on film.
It was a $25 million budget.
And they did the numbers and they were like,
that will add $250,000 to the budget.
I was like, well, this is great news.
That's 1% of the budget.
We're golden.
And they were like, no, no, we can't add $250,000.
We're already trying to cut.
And I was like, well, then cut from somewhere else. Like, they're just like, no, we can't add $250,000. We're already trying to cut. And I was like, well, then cut from somewhere else.
They're just like, no, you can't add 1%.
And I was like, but this is the artistic choice that must happen.
This is the only way to do this.
It's the only way this would be worth doing.
And they wouldn't even have a conversation about adding 1%.
And that was even before I was like, well, those numbers are way too high.
None of these numbers reflect my experience.
Why could I afford this on a $2 a half million dollar her smell to answer this
guy's other question? And you're telling me it can't be afforded for 10 times the amount of
money. And the answer is like, they just don't care. Like the only thing people care about
is not being yelled at by whoever the BA person is who looks at the numbers and they're like,
I can't sign off on this. They don't actually care about like what's good for something. This is why movies that, you know, movies used to be shot in
all sorts of great places. And now they're shot wherever in whatever state will give you the most
money back or whatever country. I was working on something else. And I was like, it was written
as like a Northeast thing. And someone brought me a budget to shoot it in Serbia, where a great many mid-budget, low-budget films are shot.
And I was like, I have no interest in doing this.
Like, I'm not going to go to Serbia for five months
and make this movie that's like set in the north.
And they were like, well, we'll show you the budget.
And what you see is slave wages.
Like, you're flying in a DP,
and then everyone in the camera department's making a hundred dollars a day.
Rates you can't get a kid to sit in your van and make sure you don't get parking tickets for in New York or LA.
And that's like, that's like your second AC's salary.
And I just, when I saw that, I was like, well, this makes sense.
Like these numbers are as low as you can pay.
And people are just like, can't beat a hundred bucks a day for an AC.
And it's just like,esus that's that so like in my opinion like the sort of thing about the unions of which sag is
still struggling through it although that's much more like you know there's only acting is only
really like a few things whereas writing there's 25 or 30 or 50 different things you can write and get paid
for is like, in my opinion, as someone who's only makes jobs in feature writing, the, the problem
that no one was really talking about. And I don't really know why other than that,
it's really hard to explain. And I'm sure I won't do a good job is like, you know,
how many studios are there? Eight, 10, maybe like those are depicted as the enemy, right?
Because everyone's like, they hold all the power and they're the ones saying no to this.
But like you and I know, and many people in the industry know that beneath the studios
are hundreds, if not thousands of production companies. And in most cases,
you, as in like the writer or the director,
are not working for a studio.
By the time you get to a studio,
you're making money.
The nine out of 10 of my friends,
including people who work in TV,
you're working for six, 12, 18 months for one of these companies
before you ever take your show to a network to pitch it
or take your movie out to get the script financed.
And none of these companies have union signatories
because that would mean that they would have to pay people
to do this work,
which would mean that their business model
doesn't work at all.
So they get by on billions of hours of free labor spread across dozens, if not hundreds,
of projects they have in development for which not a single person is being paid anything.
Myself, the director attached to a script these people have acquired or that they already
developed or that was paid somewhere.
No one's getting paid money to do the 11th or 12th draft of a pitch outline.
No one's getting paid money to make the visual deck to land the directing job.
That's all like work you have to do for free.
And that's a problem that exists not in the eight or 10 studios,
but in the hundreds or thousands of production companies that,
I'm putting this in air quotes, have a deal somewhere.
So production company A, oh, they have a deal with Apple
because the guy who runs it, you know, whatever, they have a deal with Apple or they have a deal with HBO or a deal somewhere. So production company A, oh, they have a deal with Apple because the guy
who runs it, you know, whatever, they have a deal with Apple or they have a deal with HBO or a deal
with Amazon. That's how that company has an office and an assistant to set up your calls and your
Zooms. So those people all make money. And then they're like, hey, we optioned this book. Okay,
well, the author got paid. We'd like you to adapt it. Okay, well, who's going to pay me? Well,
nobody. Nobody, maybe forever. We might work on this with you for a year, adapt it. Okay, well, who's going to pay me? Well, nobody. Nobody, maybe forever.
We might work on this with you for a year,
pitch it 15 times, not sell it,
and then tell you it's been nice working with you.
And I'm describing, I mean, that's happened to me multiple times, happened to everyone I know.
So for me, it's like, by the time you get to the studio,
if they're like, we're going to buy this,
I almost don't care on the fine terms of it
because I'm like,
God, I'm lucky to have a job. I finally got out of purgatory of developing this
for a year for free. Now I'll take a job and this is very exciting to me.
And I feel like that's a reality that sort of got lost in the discussion of what this issue
really was about. Because this is just like, it's so pervasive and it's like a system of abuse
of like the studios
kind of abuse their power
or they literally abuse their power.
But then all these smaller companies,
it's not that they're abusing their power.
It's that they're just doing
what they have to
in order to do business.
They're a part of this system.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if they were like,
we optioned an article
and a book
and we want to remake this foreign film,
we want to turn this documentary into a thing.
If every one of those things
they had to pay a writer to do,
they just wouldn't have the money for it.
That's just not how the capital is structured
to support that amount of labor.
And yet that amount of labor is happening
every single day for no money.
So, you know, I'm glad the strike is over.
I'm happy to be working again,
but like it ended on what, like a Sunday or something. I can tell you on Tuesday, I got an email from
somebody who I've been developing something with this company for free since last April.
So like 16 months minus the five of nothing. And when we put down everything in April,
I was like, well, I'll do what they were like,
just a few more things on this outline,
and then it'll be good to pitch whenever the strike ends.
And I said, I'll do this as a kind of favor now,
because when the strike ends,
you may not be able to ask people
to just revise an outline for the 12th time for free.
And sure enough, that is never made it
to the negotiating table.
You can ask someone to revise an outline for the 12th, 16th, 22nd, 45th time for free.
Emailed me 36 hours after the strike ended and was like,
hey, just so excited, just read through this, a couple thoughts.
And I was just like, great, we're done with the strike.
Right back to free work.
This is just like a shocking reality that I feel like
this doesn't really speak to like
new people getting tv jobs because they're generally getting hired on some existing project
but the way these projects go from like speculative to real is like really complicated
and involves a lot of kind of like abuse of people's time and goodwill and i don't think
that could ever be protected because it would require hundreds or thousands of production
companies being wga signatories and agreeing to pay writers to actually do this work that currently is done for free with no contract in place.
It's so interesting because, you know, actually in the last couple of weeks, we've heard that the opposite is true, that producers in particular who have a lot of these shingles have made efforts to kind of distance themselves from the AMPTP, which were totally villainized over the course of this strike.
But because over the last 50 years,
studios have increasingly shrunk down the development branches of their companies,
like the studios don't develop a lot of original ideas from within
nearly as much as they used to in the 70s and 80s,
that the rise of these production companies has totally changed the landscape.
I mean, this is true somewhat of television too. Like there are TV, you know, TV shows sold in this
way, but for films, it's very common. So they're trying to distance themselves
from the studios you're saying? Yeah. I think because the studio is seen as the big bad and
the, you know, producers will often say, especially independent producers will say,
I'm not being paid for things as well. Unless you have one of those
pre-existing output deals with a streamer or a movie studio, you're doing everything on hope and
grit, which in some cases is true and in some cases is not. If you're Jerry Bruckheimer, it's
different than if you're somebody who just started a company a year ago. But there's a middle ground
of power in Hollywood that is very rarely identified.
And it's because it feels like it could slip through your finger at any time.
So unless you're sitting in the big chair at a big studio, it's hard to define that as a modicum of power.
But it's an interesting wrinkle to this.
And you're right.
Like, I don't know if I've ever heard anybody specifically outline that in the way that you did.
And it doesn't seem like it's been going to be resolved at any point in the next 10 years. I don't think it could be. I don't think there
is a resolution to it. Like, here's a scenario, right? Like, Sean Fantasy Productions, a hot new
studio. You get a deal with HBO because of your great success with the Music Box documentaries.
And you're like, great, I can produce my own stuff now. I'm going to go to these filmmakers.
And you go to a filmmaker and you're like, I really like your produce my own stuff now. I'm going to go to these filmmakers. And you go to a filmmaker and you're like,
I really like your movies.
I would love to tell this story with you.
Here's this thing I want.
Here's this story I want to tell.
And that filmmaker's like, what an opportunity.
I mean, this guy is huge.
He's the biggest podcaster in the world.
And he's had all these wonderful successes and documents.
Like, this is a great thing for me.
And then you can string them along literally forever. And you don't have to to pay them anything but if there is a system in place where the person's
reps were like all right so like starting now this person's on a weekly it's not a crazy amount
of money but you need to pay them like $1,500 a week which doesn't sound like much but that means
you're not going to drag this out for nine months before you take it to hbo and pitch it
When you're actually paying this person like enough money to basically live on
Uh pay rent monthly if that's you know
Or whatever daycare as you and I were just discussing school costs like you're paying someone six grand a month
You're going to be like, all right
Well, we want to get this pitch because I don't want to keep paying this money because this comes out of my overhead
So let's not make you develop this for 14 months. Let's make you
develop this for eight weeks and then we'll take it in. And there'll always be this understanding
that's like, wait, we didn't develop this for eight months because that's cost prohibitive.
This is like good enough to pitch. But then once we sell it to you, if we do, then we'll really
make it sink because now you're writing the checks to this guy. And that seems like a fair system.
But I've never really heard anybody explain a financial model where that's even remotely possible.
Because a producer in that position, like I said, they're developing maybe 40, maybe 50 projects.
And they can't be paying $50,000 weekly rates to every writer or director that they're developing something with
but it's the only way that everybody in the kind of middle class of creation could possibly be
taken care of in a non-exploitative way and uh yeah i don't know it's just like how do you get
out from underneath that in a system that's just built on free labor. Have you felt like you've been in positions
where you've been offered a gig like that,
an opportunity like that,
and you couldn't turn it down
because you knew somebody would be right behind you
to just take it in a second?
That's always the way.
I mean, that's typically why you do it.
Because if I don't want to work for free
for this storied and important producer
or director who has a production company.
Somebody else will. And God, with this resources, with this talent, with these people behind it,
this has a good chance of selling. It's not a sure thing. Nothing's a sure thing. But like,
I need to invest the time to cultivate this potential opportunity for myself because that's
what I do. But in actor's terms, right, like a big thing you hear about for the acting strike is auditions are work. People should be paid for auditions. In fact,
it's even in some clause that that is something that is supposed to happen. Well, actors don't
have to audition for things for 10 months. Maybe like the biggest top secret superhero movie in
the world with an eight-year, five-movie contract you have to do over and over again. But even that, like 10 months is very rare. Whereas that for me and my friends,
that's like 10 months a year is pretty common from somebody being like, all right,
we'll develop this with you to pitching it. And that's just too much time. And that's free.
That's free work. That's 12, 15 drafts of an outline of a pitch. That's dozens of Zooms and
phone calls. And what do I get out of it? In one of these cases dozens of zooms and phone calls and like what what do i get
out of it in one of these cases i did this for a year and i got a nalgene bottle for christmas from
the company which i use constantly but like that was my compensation for literally 52 weeks to the
day from them saying we're sending you a book that we option we think you're the guy to help us
develop it into a show to,
well, it's been great working with you.
It was like February right after Astrid was born
to the following February.
So I guess I got the water bottle
about eight weeks before it failed.
But, you know, that's like 12 months of like mental space
for something that just goes right into like
the trash bin on the computer
of dozens of useless PDFs
that comprise dozens, if not
hundreds of hours of notes and feedback and lookbook development with their graphics person.
And then it's just like, well, we didn't sell it.
We're back to our regular jobs.
Best of luck.
Kirk Van Houten gets fired from the Cracker Factory.
It's like, I don't recall saying good luck.
This will be incredibly dispiriting, I think,
to aspiring writers to hear that it works this way.
I did want to ask you, though, this is sort of related,
but you did produce an independent movie that has premiered at the festivals
and is opening in December, right?
Which Bobby Wagner logged on Letterboxd,
according to the publicists.
Bobby, thanks for logging it.
Thanks for seeing it.
Got that in our press update.
It's true.
I produced a movie called The Sweet East
that Sean Price Williams,
who shot all of my movies,
directed,
premiered at Cannes,
director's fortnight,
comes out December 1st in New York
and then progressively other cities
through in the weeks after um you know when you were on the show i want to say it was 2020
you gave an a deep and even more depressing disquisition on the state of independent film
so i don't remember i don't remember what you're talking about but that sounds like something i
would do it was an it was honestly an incredible speech, but I think it left many people,
including myself, quite low. But what was your experience with this? Was it incredibly difficult
to pull this off? Was it easy? How did it work? Well, I should say I don't have any practical
skills at all, and I'm not able to make budgets or hire a crew or run things. It was basically just
that sean and
nick pinkerton who wrote the script wanted to get this going and i you know he said well you read
this can you what do you think we should do and i was like let me just introduce this into the
agency talent agency systems and start getting you meetings so that you can get this cast and
that of course leads to having a cast and now in my capacity as like the only producer involved with
the movie other than Alex Coco, who works with Sean Baker, you know, who's like, like getting
on the phone with distributors and kind of like talking through that or doing festival strategy
stuff, publicists. Like I have unfortunately quite a bit of experience doing that. I mean,
the budget on Sweeties is like basically the budget of her smell and Craig
Buda the other producer on this who I work with on many things like he really you know
He made the movie like I want to be clear
you know like the money conversations is like
You want to time this is like to your guys other question about five-year recollections of her smell like
You want to make something that's like over two million dollars, right?
Like that's not a lot of money But that's a lot of money to kind of make a scrappy do it our
way movie but like you're talking to investors and the financial reality is that there's really only
three or four companies that could make you whole on that investment. And in all likelihood, at least two, you know,
you have a script like this.
It's, you know, a prickly script
with some controversial themes.
Like you can take Netflix
off the table right away.
And you can take some
of the other ones off the table.
And there's dozens of great companies
that can release movies,
including our eventual distributor, Utopia.
But they're not competing in a financial
way to be able to validate a two, two and a half, $3 million budget. They're just not,
not because they're weak. They're just, they don't have the capital that Netflix or some of
the bigger indie distributors have. So you're basically trying to sell people like a false
bill of goods and tell them like, you know, we can make you 5 million on your 2 million.
And then they're like, oh, really?
And you're like, well, no, like, of course not.
Like nobody believes that.
So you're, you know, like some of the people that ended up being talked to, you know, they're
money people.
You end up talking not to like film people, but finance people.
And finance people tend to be really smart about money.
And you explain the economics of filmmaking
and film distribution to them,
and they just look at you
like you just described magic.
Like you're like, yeah, so you go to Hogwarts
and they give you this wand,
and the wand picks you,
and they're just like,
what the fuck are you talking about?
You're like, yeah, you make it,
you finance it entirely out of
pocket. You take it to Sundance. There's only two companies that could pay enough money. And they're
just like, so why would I give you money? And you're like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Like
I've talked myself out of it during this pitch meeting. And these finance people really just
look at you. Like, they're like, you're like my 40th meeting today. This is the one that makes
the least sense for me to invest in. Why would I do
this? Chris Rock has this great line that I always like to bring up in money talks where he's like,
making a movie for $100 million that makes $200 million is not good business. Making a shoe for
a dollar that you sell for $100 is good business. And that's an investment thing, but it's just...
Part of it is also some people just don't want to sign off on giving money to something that's going to be made non-traditionally.
Like Sweeties was shot in two halves.
One in the fall, one in the spring to get different weather.
Well, a lot of people are like, I don't want to give you money.
What if like something happens in the middle of that?
Like what if one of the actors had a terrible time and they don't come back?
And you're like, well, actors don't have terrible times the way we work and they're like well what if they and you know it just becomes
very difficult but like you know i was thinking about this like over the weekend looking at box
office like did you see that that movie cat person came out i guess maybe you don't remember we
touched on it very briefly on the show like that was like a going into sundance like a movie that
was included as like a lot of like oh this, this is like a big movie at Sundance.
Yep.
We all, this was a big thing.
It's got Cousin Greg in it.
This girl from the other movie, you know, whatever, like she's popular.
From CODA, from the Best Picture winner.
Yeah.
And like, it's just like, that movie was released by Rialto.
The company that like has been re-releasing Godard films since you and I
were in preschool. And like it opened, it made like $400. And I was just like, wait a minute,
like this movie came out like this in January, you would have been like, you know, I went to
the Cat Person premiere, fucking like Fox Searchlight, Netflix, they're all front row center.
Like this is a big title. And then come Octoberober they're just like quick like get it out during the actor strike when no one no i was just like what happened like and uh the other movie
there's another one of those movies at sundance uh called fairyland or fairy tale or something
i don't think it has a distributor same actress i think and that's like a big movie like sofia
coppola produced it and she was there like doing press as a producer and it's like you know like
what happens like that's a lot
of fucking money to like make something like that that's just like yeah i don't know tough break on
that one i'll tell you i just i was at a i went to go see the killer last night and i saw a filmmaker
there at the like the after thing and the last time i had seen him was at Telluride 2022 when he premiered a movie in like a very big spot.
And it was a very kind of like,
almost like a gala event premiere
for this movie that he had made.
And the movie has no distribution
and is not going to come out ever.
And I was like, so what?
I mean, I think because there's some controversy
surrounding it, I don't think it will ever come out.
And so, but, and yet he still is
hanging out at the
Netflix party
but like what you're
describing
we were remarking on
this last night
this happens
like that two and a half
million dollars
you're talking about
or in some cases
I don't know
five million dollars
two and a half is very low
that's something me
and my guys can deliver
like these movies
are not two and a half
million unless we make them
yeah Fairyland is an
interesting example
I talked about it
actually at a Sundance
I thought it was pretty good
and I guess it will never be seen.
It's fascinating.
Nothing will never be seen.
I mean,
I assume you're talking about
Louis C.K.
I tell you right,
who you were hanging out with.
Yeah,
my close personal friend.
His latest film,
but like very few things
except for his last movie.
I'll tell you.
I have too,
yeah.
We all,
we all,
you know,
got those screeners
before it was pulled.
That's right.
You know, very few things will never be seen but like sweet east is a victory like anything existing is a victory but like to finally bring this back to your guys question like
my thoughts five years later on her smell or like that like i kind of you know was like the last
like running into like the doors of the ship before it was sealed and it like took off for
another planet because you can still do that like we kind of made a movie in that exact model with sweet east but like it's not smart it's not easy and
it requires like a network of friends and relationships and favors and crew that will do
anything for you and that's what we have and that's why we can pull that off but if you were
just putting that script or my script into like the budget system it's not two and a half it's
five and a half or seven and that's money that who's going to give you that money like what world do they think
a movie is going to you know it's got to be like a certain kind of thing to make that kind of money
and most serious challenging things are just not that kind of thing so uh i feel like that informs
what you're talking about with the horror franchises even. That it's sort of like these things are too valuable and the ceiling is too high that we need to just try to maximize the profit on this thing.
Yeah.
And like, you know, it's just this insidious nature.
It's like it's the film business.
Like there used to be so much flyers.
Like you just take a flyer on stuff.
Material was so much less precious.
But now it's like well
there's only so many things and there's only so many serious distributors and they only release
so many movies and it's like that's a lot of only so many's so like what gets through all those
filters to be presented as like something that's being talked about on the big picture between
september and december right like yeah what breaks through like that you know it's like I don't think that that's how they're thinking about it, but that's nice of
you to frame it that way. But like that is, you know, for better or worse, like what you're going
to be talking about is like the 0.1% of movies that stay in the conversation up to the final
four months of their life cycle. Whereas some movies you saw at Sundance nine months ago,
we're not in the conversation six weeks later and are not in the conversation now 10 months later as they were destined to be
when someone said, I will give you the money. Yeah. This year in particular, I felt like there
were more than a few of those. The movie Eileen didn't sell right away, which is based on an
acclaimed novel from a well-known writer that stars Anne Hathaway
and it's not a cheap movie.
It took a long time
for it to sell
and it is coming out
in this corridor
that you're talking about.
Right, but not Neon's
really a thing.
But that whole big scene
is like, oh, it's a real movie.
Yes.
Real distributor,
Anne Hathaway,
like real, real, real.
Yes.
Doesn't matter if it's sold
in 24 hours or 24 days.
It landed.
It stuck the landing somehow.
It's fascinating.
And we'll see.
I don't know
i mean i feel like this is a long a long-winded answer that's taking a lot of time but like
this is just very much what's on my mind in my like sort of non-existent attempts to
generate creative projects of my own but also like you know helping sean or just you know i'm
happier to be kind of in the back seat of that car and just kind of like testing the waters of
what things are like because uh lord knows it takes a lot of energy time and just kind of like testing the waters of what things are like because
lord knows it takes a lot of energy time and focus and i don't i don't have as much of it as i used
to i saw the sweet east and i really liked it and it's thorniness is what recommends it um but it
will be a tough sell in some ways too you know that thorniness is you're gonna hopefully you
can actually generate like a a um annoying public negative opinion because i feel like that actually
benefits a movie
like this. It could. It could. That'll be there, I'm sure. Maybe it already is. But this is related
to what we're talking about, which is thoughts on physical media going away at most retailers.
Target is- Oh, I'm glad this came up. I wanted to ask you about this. Yeah, well, I think it's a good
topic for us. I mean, Target is removing most DVDs and Blu-rays. I think Best Buy is entirely
removing physical media from their sales. I did hear that, yeah. When was the last time
you walked into a Best Buy
and bought a physical?
I mean, that was going
to be my response
was anybody who shops
for physical media
at Best Buy
is already lost anyway.
I mean, what are you doing?
But like,
where are people
who don't live
on the internet
buying them?
Or are they just not?
Who doesn't live
on the internet?
What people don't shop
on the internet?
I just, obviously,
like the ubiquity
of DVDs is like a moneymaker't shop on the internet i just obviously like the ubiquity of
dvds is like a money maker was based on the fact that you got them at the store where you went for
other things yeah right like that was not true of cassettes but suddenly you got dvds when you
were shopping for a cd and like something for your car and something for your kitchen yeah at
best buy or target or whatever and uh i may i mean again this is just like i there's nothing i hate more than like la new york
tunnel vision but like in the best buy at the shopping complex in indianapolis are people just
buying dvds and blu-rays there like i don't i have to imagine yes yeah for sure of course i where
else are they buying i mean i don't know where to i mean this is like a new york thing but like
i don't know where to go buy a blu a New York thing but like I don't know where
to go buy a Blu-ray
if I want
like there's nobody
there's nowhere
you can just go buy one
in person
yeah
but why do you need
to buy it in person
I guess is the question
well that's what I mean
so then
what does it matter
if these big box stores
are going to stop selling them
well I think it really hurts
big studios
I don't think it hurts
small studios
or small independent films
I mean most of those films are not distributed in those spaces anyway, in Walmarts and Best Buys.
You have to imagine like Elemental was moving some units at Target and Best Buy, right? Like
some kid just sees it and they just want it and they don't want to, you know, whatever. They just
see the object there and it's $ um what do you think of this i mean
this is like obviously i could i could monologue i could filibuster about this for yeah 24 hours
if i needed to i mean long term it's very bad right because what it does is it like it
decentralizes and disincentivizes studios to produce physical media because there's one fewer
place to sell that media in whatever town you're in and that's bad
that's really bad because it means that there won't like there was a really funny person who
asked a question about the trent resner and atticus ross score at the killer screening last night
and the second part of the question was will there be a physical release of this soundtrack
and fincher did not answer it i don't know if it was a purposeful evasion or not but there's the
expectation that you'll get a physical representation of the media that you like now is obviously less and less.
And long-term, I think it's pretty bad. On the other hand, I feel like kind of Blu-ray collecting
is at a fever pitch. Like the people who are into it and the independent companies that make like
deluxe editions, it kind of feels like they're doing really well. And there's of course like
the Criterion collections,
which, you know, a lot of American cinephiles know about.
But like, I feel like the arrows of the world
are doing really well right now.
So...
Yeah, my giant Messiah of Evil from Imprint
just came the other day.
Yeah, I mean, first of all, incredible movie.
I was just watching it the other day too.
Did you get that release?
I did not buy it.
Is it like 50 bucks?
I don't know. I pre-ordered it so long ago that when I got a shipping notice, Did you get that release? I did not buy it. Is it like 50 bucks?
I don't know.
I pre-ordered it so long ago that when I got a shipping notice,
I could not remember
what the notice was in reference to.
I think I pre-ordered it
like six months ago.
But in that little bubble
that we occupy,
I feel like we think
it's going to be fine.
But when I am getting ready
to embark on a Sidney Lumet
viewing project
and I want to go get
a hard copy of the group and then that's
no longer being produced by Warner Archive or whatever produces that film because there's no
market for, I don't know, dead stocks, late 60s studio films, then I will be really mad.
And I do think that that is definitely coming. On the flip side, the whole streaming gambit for
almost every company that is in Netflix is kind of flailing right now. On the flip side, you know, the whole streaming gambit for almost every company that isn't Netflix
is kind of flailing right now.
So, you know,
the idea that things
will live in perpetuity
on these spaces
is also wrong.
I just don't know
what the ultimate outcome
of it is.
But paying like MSRP
for your DVD at Best Buy
is not a good personal choice.
Do you think that there's
like actually a world
where, you know,
like to make another
Simpsons reference,
like Disco Stu's chart of disco sales like going up to 1979.
Like, do you think there's a world of physical media sales going up?
Or do you think like…
Well, for what we like, it's vinyl.
It's very similar.
Like what's happening with like repertory screenings and like boutique Blu-ray purchases is vinyl in 2007 in new york where it's like
record store day is a thing there is this very passionate um collection of people who want this
stuff and if you want messiah of evil it's actually weirdly easier to get than some movie that chris
christopherson starred in for columbia in 1982 that's fascinating but now you can get vinyl at
target like this is the op,
like it's taking the spot
of those Blu-rays they're getting rid of.
I know, that's true.
Well, and then maybe it can come back around
and do that.
And then maybe, you know,
Arrow will have their item,
you know, maybe you can get,
I don't know,
Severin stuff in Target someday.
Yeah, I mean,
that would certainly be unexpected.
I guess I just feel like
I probably buy,
I would say,
a minuscule fraction
of the amount of physical media
you do.
And mostly,
you know,
the majority of my annual purchases
are on a video cassette.
I'm not like,
I'll buy like discs
of something that I'm just like,
that looks good
and I want that box.
I want like the Messiah of Evil box,
but I'm also like,
yeah, Messiah of Evil on tape.
That's kind of like what you want.
But like, you know, I think that's not even available.
Is it what I'm sure it was on tape at some point.
I can't imagine how else I saw it.
Well, I'm not saying it would be cheap, but it would certainly be something I would spend money on.
It would be less than the $50 Blu-ray, I'm guessing.
Yeah.
But, you know, like, like the thing that people sort of forget
is like
DVD, right? That came out
late 90s, early 2000s.
At that exact time,
every home had a VCR.
And then suddenly, two things happened
literally within the same
two years.
DVD started being an option and every computer had a
DVD player. So now, whether you bought one or and every computer had a DVD player.
So now whether you bought one or not, you had a DVD player, whether it was on your laptop or your family desktop, everybody had one or two or three in their house. So then the other thing
that happened with that is that now people's relationship with watching a movie changed
from being on the TV to being on the thing where you go on the internet.
Now, this was like a double-edged sword because it's like, now there's DVD players everywhere.
Kid goes to college with a laptop and some DVDs that they own. And then it's like, well,
now people are just used to watching movies on their computer. And then they stopped putting
DVD players. I mean, they probably never even put Blu-ray players in computers.
I don't think they did.
And now it's like, well, you don't have the hardware, but now everyone's habits are such
that it's like, I watch movies and shows on the thing I check my email on.
And there's not like another level of that coming, I don't think.
So it makes sense that these places that are largely like appliance and home stores, you
know, get rid of the thing that doesn't touch any other other
merchandise that's what's so interesting to me though about the kind of i don't know failure
is probably too strong a word but the deflation of the streaming strategy and the fact that it's
basically just kind of turning into cable tv and it's not this incredible what i had hoped in which
was a fool's thought that it would become this incredible archive of movie history, TV history, to some extent, like when Paramount plus launched,
I was like, this isn't, this is amazing that they're going to have a way station for everything
that they produced from like 1968 through 1982. This is amazing that this will be here because
if you just look at the Wikipedia page of every film that they released in that period,
even the curiosios are fascinating.
And I'd love to be able to access them anytime I want.
And of course they didn't do that.
That is like the opposite of what they did.
They now have a space to put Survivor and The Amazing Race
and all of the Taylor Sheridan shows.
So, you know, the fact that that's not happening
means that there's going to have to be the creation
of some kind of new revenue stream,
just like you described with what DVDs was.
That was a new revenue stream, and it was physical media.
They have to find another one now because they basically just recreated cable television.
It wasn't a new opportunity.
They have to find some other way to make money.
Yes.
And it can't just be having three writers instead of five writers on a TV show.
Yes. I'll say this in closing about the streaming thing. Like a big part of this stuff always is
like, like information is like, this is true in all forms of news, but especially irrelevant,
like entertainment news, like information is always so hard for people to actually get.
I was on the playground the other day. I was overhearing a conversation that I almost butted
in on, but I didn't, where there were three moms talking and one of them was complaining about Disney+.
And I was like, well, this sounds interesting.
And she was saying she hates Disney+,
because Disney+, doesn't have old movies on it.
She wants to watch the classics.
And they don't have those.
You have to go to iTunes to buy one at a time
the classic films.
And the other women were going really and she goes
yeah and she goes I wanted to watch the Little Mermaid they don't have the original they only
had the new one and I just wanted to turn around and be like guys this is you're wrong like Disney
is what you're describing it does have a hundred years now of content on it it has shorts from the
30s and it has features from the 40s 50s. I watched Skeleton Dance with Alice this week.
Yeah, we watched that too.
Yeah, that got put on.
The Huey, Dewey, and Louie trick-or-treating one also.
We did that too.
But, you know, I just was like, how can you miss that?
Like, I don't understand like what these, you know, you'd think three parents between all of their Disney Plus time, they'd be like, no, I'm pretty sure I watched Alice in Wonderland
and, you know, the Aristocats with my kid pretty recently.
And it's like, they're all just like,
huh, that's so weird.
Like, yeah, I don't know.
And I was like,
what is the missing piece of information here
that makes everybody think like,
no, they don't have it.
Thought they would have it and they don't.
Yeah, that's the rare case
where they did actually do the thing that I was asking for. And now everyone thinks that that was a
mistake and the strategy that they had of withholding their titles and then selling
them once every five years was actually the right way to make money. So it's like,
there's no right answer, you know, like everyone is desperately just find a way,
trying to find a way to maximize the profits. Um, that is the cause of and solution to all
of the problems in the entertainment industry. Let me ask you a couple more questions.
What's up with the pavement film?
We're editing it.
My entire writing morning was derailed by getting a new cut of it.
Oh, that's exciting.
Yeah, we're editing it.
It's getting there.
Is it, how are you feeling?
Great.
I mean, I don't want to, I mean, not like mean not like guys seriously it's bulletproof but like it's uh
it's a wildly ambitious swing of a movie on my part on anyone's part and on the part of
the band to trust me to make this movie this way and uh you know we're like near the finish line
i don't know we're like rounding third i guess okay you're being so coy after being so what am i gonna say i mean i mean like i if we're up to
me there we'd either just edit it for two years or we can just say we're going to finish it soon
so that we don't have to work on it for two more years um i mean why i'm not being coy the question
what is up with doesn't really give a lot what's up with it is that we're editing it's a wide berth come on you can say anything you want about it um i mean i think it's like a new kind of movie
and i think it's pretty amazing that someone like me who's neither like especially smart
nor technically talented came up with like a new kind of movie like a new way of telling
familiar stories and uh that's really exciting the problem is that when you make a new kind of movie,
you have problems
that are sort of not common.
And those are problems
both in production and editing.
But, you know,
I mean, it's like this huge,
crazy generational epic
about time and memory
and nostalgia and music in the 90s
and everything in between.
I can't wait.
I definitely...
And there's stuff about it
that no one even knows about.
There's elements of the production
that for various reasons
just never became public.
And...
You teased something to me
that is very exciting.
Well, I don't remember what that was,
but I'm glad.
Can you just recommend
one Dario Argento movie
for people who are listening to the show
that maybe have never
watched one of his movies don't say Suspiria though since we hear that I won't say Suspiria
although my wife never seen that we did watch it within the last week I mean this is a cheat but uh
I just watched from the Kim's collection that me and Sean Price Williams catalog and oversee
the Kim's tape of the church which he didn't direct uh he produced and co-wrote it. It's directed by,
I don't know how to pronounce the name,
Michel Soavi,
director of Cemetery Man.
I'm sure Italians are cringing right now,
but as I said...
That movie is pre-Cemetery Man, right?
Yeah, I think it's his movie right before.
It's like 89 or something.
So that would be in an Argento section typically
because stores wouldn't have a Suave section.
But watch that tape just the other night.
And it was awesome.
I'd never seen it.
Have you seen this movie?
I haven't seen it.
It's terrific.
I mean, it's just like, it's a real movie.
Like it's not a little cheap.
Like it has so much money on screen,
special effects, locations,
like weird mythological gore creatures.
Like it was a real, it was like a full feast.
Were you,
so somebody asked us for discoveries that you had this year,
thinking about our movies that time forgot episode.
Did you have anything beyond that,
that you,
you saw that you're like,
I didn't even know this existed.
I couldn't come up with something.
Cause so much of my viewing now is oriented around prepping for the show.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I would have to have like thought about that because my brain
and memory
are like deeply
deeply flawed
and useless now.
No question that that's
I'll give one.
This is also from Kim.
So now that I'm like
overseeing the re-archiving
of this collection
down at the
Lower Manhattan
Alamo Drafthouse
I just have access
to like exactly
what you're describing.
Stuff that's
completely unavailable.
And
one thing I noticed like every spring my wife and I watch a handful of have access to like exactly what you're describing stuff that's completely unavailable and um one
thing i noticed like every spring my wife and i watch a handful of merchant ivory movies a lot
of these were seminal to her i obviously saw none growing up i was too busy watching horror vhs
from from the video store so for like many you know six seven years now we just watch like three
or four merchant ivory films and i began to notice
this past year to your point that like you know you and i say you say this to anybody our age
merchant ivory you're like everywhere ubiquitous like half of these movies are not on streaming
those ones that are not on streaming tend to not be currently on dvd or blu-ray in any meaningful
way perhaps there's an old out of print one.
And there's just so many of these that are completely inaccessible right now, even though circa like 2002, there was the Merchant Ivory collection and all of these,
that seems to be the last physical release for quite a few of these films.
So Mubi earlier this year did a collection of Ishmael Merhmael merchant films like um and so i saw like quartet
and the europeans and something you know those were kind of bigger in that universe but i had
never seen any of that early 70s stuff i had never had either i have i have watched both of those but
then there's like so there's this other tier of stuff um this film with christopher walken roseland
we found the tape of that yeah i didn't see't seen that. That's not available right now.
More than
Sean, when we were doing this, he's like, oh,
this stuff is common. And I was like, no, no, wait.
Look, every Merchant Ivory tape,
save it. Half of these are not available.
And he was like, what? You're wrong.
You can't be true. These are the most common
movies. We looked it up and he was like, shit,
you're right. None of these are available.
So we found this one that I know is on DVD
but I've been dying to see it
and it's not available elsewhere
called Jane Austen in Manhattan
and you tell anybody
our age
a teenage boy
like here's a
Merchant Ivory presents
Jane Austen in Manhattan
and you're just like
like I'm
I'm so gone
I don't even know
what this movie
like this sounds like
something my mom
and my grandma are going to
in fact it's this like 1979 filmed on location new york city set film about an
experimental theater troupe and a very tony theater troupe putting on dueling versions of a lost jane
austin operetta or like some theatrical piece that she wrote and it's like cross-cutting between
like the classy actors and these like grungy new york's late 70s like the palma dionysus and 69
type actors and i was watching it and i was like this is like a revette movie like what the this
is like this should be on blu-ray in criterion likeion. Like, this is top shelf filmmaking, period New York.
Everybody loves that.
There's like this playfulness
about the experimental theater scene
in this movie,
and it's not available.
And it's a title that you or I
would never have picked it up
and been like,
is this movie secretly
a contemporary film
about experimental theater?
Or is it like,
because, you know,
it's right next to
Jefferson in Paris,
which is literally about
Jefferson in Paris.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's just
not that at all.
So that was probably
one of the most exciting
things this year
that I was like,
wow, what is this?
That's interesting.
That is actually the movie
that is right between
the Europeans and Quartet,
the two movies I just mentioned
that I had seen earlier this year,
and I've never even heard
of Jane Austen in Manhattan.
So, you did your job.
Yeah, and it's good.
Yeah, it's totally solid.
And, you know, yeah, it's just not out there.
That kind of handled the what's the last great thing you've seen question that I asked.
Yeah.
I mean, that was six months ago at this point.
But sure.
The Church, which I watched two days ago, was great.
Did you have what's your favorite studio movie of the year?
Studio movie?
Yeah.
Oppenheimer.
I assume that was the case.
I mean, I've seen,
I would say fewer than 20
so far.
That's okay.
But yeah, Oppenheimer.
Do you think he should
do or not do Bond?
Nolan.
Is that a realistic thing
that could happen?
I don't think so,
but someone asked us.
I mean, that gets into
like the earlier question
of like,
what do we want from things?
What do we want
from Friday the 13th?
What do we want from Bond?
Like, I feel like Nolan made a Bond movie already. called tenant yep uh no i mean it's not like i'm
i have like oh god you know it'd be great doing bond but uh i just feel like i'd rather see him
do anything else last question for you um how is your etsy horror sculpture garden going uh
nothing's been added it's going poorly poorly. Although I will say the,
this happened over the summer.
The head on my Pazuzu disappeared.
I swear to God,
I can't find it.
That's a bad sign, Alex.
Yeah, it's gone.
It disappeared.
And I was like,
oh, it must be in the ivy
because all these are kind of
in the ivy side of the backyard.
And I looked for it for like 20 minutes.
It just wasn't there.
And I thought about buying another Pazuzu,
but then I kind of liked the idea of leaving the one out there headless.
We had a lovely conversation.
And now I feel just even speaking to you,
I've been cursed in the way that you have because your Pazuzu has been taken.
Just being in the same room, like the longer we talk about this, I'm getting fearful.
Yeah, it was a bad sign of things to come for poor Pazuzu.
Poor Alex is really the issue, man.
I'm doing just fine.
Thanks so much for your time.
Thanks for coming to the studio.
Thanks for always being such a sage voice on this show.
Really a fount of wisdom.
I don't see myself that way.
And I appreciate that.
And if everything I'm saying sounds whatever the opposite of hopeful
is, hopeless, I guess, I don't mean that. I just mean like, and I've told you this before,
like the seriousness with which you treat the discussion of movies as a ongoing cultural thing
is really important because that's the only thing preserving any sense of dignity or integrity in the idea of
a movie is people having conversations about them and taking them seriously because the way they're
produced financed and distributed uh is devoid of honor or humanity and the only thing that can ever
keep things afloat for another generation is like yeah but you know what like once things exist
people really do care about them sometimes.
I'm just doing what comes naturally to me, but thank you for saying that.
And great to see you. Thanks, Alex.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Alex,
of course.
Next week, Amanda, we're going to talk about your beloved Emily Blunt.
I noticed you didn't thank me.
I prefer not to.
You are quite insane today.
We need to get like a fucking trank dart in here for you.
You need to just be put down.
This is outrageous.
I'm trying to promote this podcast for crying out loud.
Emily Blunt, Pain Hustlers, new film on Netflix.
I've seen it.
I think we'll probably talk a little bit more about that best supporting actress category.
And if more things rise to the surface in the world of film, we'll hit that too.
We'll see you then.