The Big Picture - Introducing the Movie Director Game, With Sam Esmail | The Big Picture

Episode Date: February 21, 2020

Movies have the February blues, so we enlisted a friend of the show to liven things up. 'Mr. Robot' creator and movie fanatic Sam Esmail joins Sean and Amanda and comes bearing a new game to play that reveals a lot about their favorite directors, personal taste, and how they view the long arc of film. Their sprawling conversations covers more than 80 years of movie history. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Sam Esmail Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelley, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Starting this week, we're launching a new show on the Ringer Dish feed, recapping the return of Survivor for its special 40th season. This season features 20 previous winners of Survivor competing for $2 million, the largest cash prize in reality TV show history. Riley McAtee and a rotating guest from the Ringer staff will recap every Thursday, so make sure you subscribe to the Ringer Dish feed for shows like Jam Session, Tea Time, and the new Survivor Recap Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessy.

I'm Amanda Dobbins. We have a special sort of conversation here. We're joined by Mr. Robot creator, the creator of the film Comet, the director of Amazon's Homecoming. Yes. Sam Esmail. Sam, what's up? Hello. How are you? Hi, guys. I'm so excited to be here. I'm such a fan.

Oh, that's very nice of you. Thank you for inviting me. We're thrilled to have you. Sam, you wanted to play a game with us. I did. Now, I want to know why you wanted to play that game with us, and I also want you to explain the game. Well, explaining it is, okay,

let me start by saying I'm a huge film nerd. As I think anybody who listens to The Watch probably already guessed. And I've always played this game with all my film nerd fans, and so I figured when I started listening to your podcast, which I'm obsessed with and a huge fan of, I figured, especially with Amanda's sort of counterpoint to all of Sean's great. Like, I just thought this would be a fun game to play. So the game basically, and again, this is sorry for the listeners who are not going to be

in on this because it's so inside. It's not even that inside. It's really not. Stop apologizing. Okay, okay, okay. I want to apologize. This is your time. It's your game. It's a good game and you deserve it. It's the best director per decade and the best director who had their

debut that decade. Does that make sense? It does. Did I explain that well? Should we use an example to help people understand it? What's an example that won't trample on the choices that we've made here? Well, if we look at this decade, we had a number of actually great film directors that made their debut. Jordan Peele with Get Out. Greta Gerwig with Lady Bird. Vince Gilligan, Amanda's favorite, with El Camino in 2019.

Vince Gilligan has made many wonderful things. And I have made no things. But it's good to bring up Vince as an example because he actually, that was his feature directorial debut, which is El Camino. Now, the thing is, it's not necessarily, we're not saying what's the best directorial debut. It's just the director that we appreciate the most that made that debut, made their debut in that decade. So, I think that there's a couple of semantic complications around this. I know, right? And you know as well as I do that there are student films, there are short films.

And we're talking about feature. So, let's lay the groundwork. Yeah, because Vince directed episodes of Breaking Bad. He directed the pilot of Breaking Bad, which I think was in the prior decade. But we're talking feature directorial debut. So that seems easy to parse. It's not as easy to parse as it seems.

Tell me why. Are you talking about like Duel? Are you talking about Spielberg's Duel? Spielberg is a particularly complex example. Because of Night... Are you talking about Night Gallery's Duel? Spielberg is a particularly complex example because- Because of Night- Are you talking about Night Gallery? Because, well, that's TV.

Well, he made a movie when he was 17 called Firelight for 500 bucks. And is that a film? Is that a feature film? Even though his parents saw it and no one else? I would say a featured, like a debut, meaning it was released in movie theaters. Got it. Okay. Commercially available.

Commercially available. Commercially available. Okay. Those are good ground rules. Yes. I'm glad that we established that because it's going to play into my list later on. But I do consider Duel to be, oh, because it didn't get released in theaters. Well, it is a feature film, but it was not theatrically released. This is true.

So I guess Duel, God, but that is considered his feature debut, isn't it? It's his first full-length movie. Right. Well, what's the movie after that, then? Sugar Land Express. Sugar Land Express, yeah. All right, so yes, we'll stick to that. Okay, before we play the game,

now that people understand the game, I want... But can I just add one other thing? The interesting thing about this game, and I think when we go through it, we'll see, it's where the decades are hard because there's just so many amazing options, and where the decades are not, there's not a lot of options. I just find the conversation around that to be interesting. Well, it explains a little bit about where movies are and where they're going.

Exactly. Specifically the 90s, which I thought was just a burst of like creative, inspirational filmmakers. And then the very decade after that, the aught of creative, inspirational filmmakers. And then the very decade after that, The Odds, which I struggled to find. I have some counterpoints to that point, but I want to use this as an opportunity to pick a bone with you. Oh, wow. Okay. I resent you and i resent your your your appearance on this podcast because what i what we need what this podcast needs is people like you making movies and not television shows well but you love movies and you understand film in a very discreet way yes but and we i mean i guess we're

going to get into it right now let's go think about think about indie filmmakers. What happened? Let's take Ryan Coogler, who loved Fruitvale, right? Amazing. What happened to him after he made Fruitvale? He went into the machine. He went into the machine. And that's what's happening with a lot of these other directors. And that's the difference between the 90s and now. If PTA came out with Hard 8 today, is he making Batmanman in two years and by the way no not dissing

on batman i'm excited for um uh what's his name matt reeves's version of it because i'm a fan of his but um i think it's just the industry is like dictating a lot of what directors are doing now and you know and that that's to am amanda point, that's the machine that we're in right now. And that's more reflective of the decade. So to get to my TV point, TV is where you get to make the interesting shit. I don't know if I could have made Mr. Robot as a feature. In fact, I tried. Well, that was my fault.

I got a little long-winded with the script. How long was that feature script? Like 45-hour film. No. That feature film, I wrote 90 pages of it, and I wasn't even into Act 2. That's when I realized I was in trouble. Was there a divergent path for you where, after Comet, you could have just doubled down and said, I'll continue to stay kind of broke, but I'll keep making movies?

Well, yeah. I mean, that was the plan. I was going to make Mr. Robot as an an indie feature and then i got stuck with it and steve golan um who uh uh you know owns anonymous content who um read the pages of mr robot and at the time true detective had just come out and he had just uh he had just produced that and i thought well wait a minute well this is fucking cool and i don't need to do anything with this i don't need to refashion the script that i had in mind and fit it into this two-hour box and honestly i was just really more i i remember thinking i was way more excited about

true detective than i was about anything else that came out that year interesting amanda what are your thoughts on true detective because Because I have no idea. Don't love True Detective. No, thank you. Yeah, I think... The first season. Yes, the first season. I think True Detective on its face is like

an accomplished piece of television filmmaking. And also, I'm a huge fan of Carrie Fukunaga always and forever. Perhaps not for the same reasons as Sam.

Yes, but to me, actually, Rep, it was such a turning point. What do you think is the best thing that he's done? I'm not even going to say film or TV. Well, I love Jane Eyre. Okay. I haven't seen that.

And I haven't seen the new Bond movie yet, but I'm really looking forward to it because I'm also a Bond person. And also, I just, you know. See, I think True Detective is Carrie's best thing. I think that's probably true, but my issue with True Detective is not actually True Detective itself. It is the dialogue around True Detective. And also, I think that's a pivot point in terms of when and how we started evaluating TV in terms of tracking shots

and the actual, just the athletic filmmaking as opposed to TV as an experience. What is this athletic flex? And then on Twitter, people are now saying slaps. What is all, I don't understand. You want us to explain the dialogue of the internet? Well, let's start with athletic. Because Amanda, I've heard you use this a lot.

And I've been on a lot of sets. I've never heard anyone say the word athletic. I think the first person who used it was my friend and the TV critic Willa Paskin. And I think it puts its finger on this idea of— It's funny that you bring her up because she wrote this—she wrote—it was a harsh—I mean, whatever. I respect her reviews, but she dissed my one episode of Mr. Robot where it was all one tracking shot, which I assume is what you mean by athletic. Because I do think that filmmaking and TV and everything is more than cameras and more than where the camera is. And there is such a fixation on the more is more aspect of filmmaking. And I think that the tracking shot is an encapsulation of that.

And people are just like, oh, wow, did you see what you did? That was so cool. Oh, my god the camera it was moving you know but don't you think it but don't you think it hasn't to me every every sort of choice that you make with the camera has an effect and yes to some extent it just it takes you out of it and draws attention to itself but to some extent is that really i mean what do you think of the copacabana shot yeah of course and i and i do actually i think even the tracking shot in true detective is effective but you know we're doing a podcast right now that isn't essentially about how we talk and think about film and like establishing a canon of sorts and the canon is so reliant on where do we put the camera and what did they and on showiness and i both like don't respond

to that artistically at some point i'm just like yeah yeah yeah like fancy camera shots you got it congratulations to you but i do also think it distracts from the other equally important points of filmmaking that don't get enough credit i think code is also uh i specifically athletic is code for masculinity you know it's code for for this sort of the might of the male filmmaker. Now, that's not always true. If you watch like Strange Days, for example, Catherine Bigelow is doing a lot with the camera. It is unorthodox and cool and might have what would otherwise be deemed

a kind of masculine energy. But I do think that True Detective and largely the dialogue, like you're saying, was about a lot of dudes being like, yo, this is sick. Now, personally, I thought it was sick. Oh, okay. But I was not a fan of those scripts. And I don't think that story is very strong. But I thought that show was really well made.

Right. And that actually is enough for me sometimes. If something is really well made. If it feels like those choices are being made that help character, help story, improve upon what's on the page. Which sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. I mean, where did you fall on the 1917 debate? We just went through all this. It's so weird because with 1917, what I just mentioned, we did a long tracking shot for one episode of Mr. Robot.

And I guess because I know too much about what goes into pulling that off, I saw every stitch. And weirdly, every stitch that felt so obvious where I felt like we would have tried to be a little more creative. I mean, even my mother-in-law was pointing out the stitches. And my mother-in-law does not know

very much about filmmaking. So I think I got in my head way too much with the film. So I don't think I can have past fair judgment on it. But yeah, I was pretty much more watching the technique than I was following the story. And that is not a success. And I don't mean to underestimate technique. I have no technique,

and it's very hard to pull those things off, as you said. So I just find that when it gets in the way of a fuller presentation. I do find that well-made is so often code for, I didn't like anything else about it, but I appreciate the fact that things are put together. It's like saying a film is interesting. You know, it's like, oh, okay. I will say with the one episode of Mr. Robot, the best compliment I ever got on that episode, and multiple people came up and said this, they didn't even realize that it was a winner until halfway through. Some people didn't even realize until later after someone else told them. So for me, that was exciting because I agree with you in general. I don't think the filmmaking should ever get in the way.

But at the same time, I don't think it should get completely out of the way. And a lot of times I think movies do that. They lean in the opposite direction and you're just watching coverage. You know, you're just watching a master shot, a close-up, close-up. To me, the better example to have this conversation, and we don't get a chance to talk about tv all that much here is and it's not because you're here but it's homecoming which the way that that the way that you shot that really more informs atmosphere character and story and obviously there are a lot there's a lot of homage to maybe some directors we'll talk about here and some films that you like a lot, but also without that filmmaking style, that story would not have

worked as well if it hadn't been quite so intimate the way that it's shot. If you didn't have your sort of your Dutch angles, your Alan Bakula style, a shadow and distance from certain characters. It's interesting, you know, Rob Reiner, can we talk about Rob Reiner first? Absolutely. What an interesting beginning to a filmmaker's career. And then just sort of, it just sort of, I don't know what happened. It just sort of dissolved. But you think about like, and I was going to bring him up when we were talking about the 80s. But this is Spinal Tap.

That's his debut. And then what does he go on to do? Princess Bride. When Harry Met Sally. I mean, hit after hit. A Few Good Men, which I was, that's probably the first drama I was obsessed. That's our Venn diagram. But I don't think Rob Reiner moves the camera.

He does not use the camera in the same way that Scorsese or PTA or Coen Brothers or any of these other filmmakers do and i always wondered would it have served would those movies had been on a different echelon if somebody took the camera and to your to your point be more athletic with those stories or were i mean you know i think they would be in a certain corner but to a lot of people you just named like the greatest movies of all time and to me they're the greatest movies at some point it is like pockets stand by me i'm not even like listing all of them. Yeah. At some point, it is pockets of influence and taste and like what we take seriously and what our particular canon is. And what I actually really like about this exercise is that it really does so quickly become a personality test and like and your own values and what like your own particular canon is.

But so that will be so it's interesting that you say that because the choices that I made, I think some of them will be eminently predictable. Yes. But some of them will not be. And the thing that I like might more closely reflect a Rob Reiner movie than some sort of athletic filmmaking. Now, did you pick the filmmaker

that you liked the most or that you thought was the best filmmaker? Are you saying there's a difference? I am saying that. I am. Are you saying there's a difference? I am saying that. I am. I am saying there's a difference. I mean, in the voice of God affectation of this podcast, I think that there's some crossover there.

Because I'll, I mean, I went, there were too many filmmakers that were just too much of an impression on me that I was like, I had to pick that. I don't know if they're necessarily the best filmmaker that came out that decade. But for me personally, I just had too much of an impression on me that I was like, I had to pick that. I don't know if they're necessarily the best filmmaker that came out that decade, but for me, personally, I just had too much of an attachment.

And then I'll, you know, I'll flag the ones that I just think, you know, you can't, you can't beat. I mean,

honestly, we're going to start in the 60s, right? Well, we talked about the 40s and we're ready to go in the 40s if you want. Oh, shit.

I prepared for the, okay, well, you're going to have to give me the names. I can do it on the spot. I can give you the full list of the 40s if you want to. Is Kubrick 40s and we're ready to go in the 40s if you want oh shit i prepared for the okay well you're gonna have to give me the name i can do it on the spot i mean give you the full list is kubrick 40s no kubrick is 50s okay so kubrick is obviously yes we we had a conversation before you arrived about the 50s and i said that sam would be picking kubrick in the 50s you're you're picking kubrick no i'm not amanda that's okay we're't do this, Amanda. This is an exchange of ideas.

No, no, no. That's good. We're already off to a roaring start. I know. I want you to know that I met you today. Who are you going to pick? But I knew that you were going to pick Kubrick, and I want you to know your brand is strong. No, everybody picks Kubrick. I don't know. That is not. Your vision is strong. It's like there are two Shons.

I support you. You keep shining. I love this. You, I want you to know, I gave you a little credit, and I thought that you might go Altman. I didn't. But I knew you would be torn. He's in my top three. Yes, I know. And Altman is not your pick. No, though I think that would be my backup.

Wait, your backup, which is not Kubrick. So Kubrick is like third. So I found the 50s to be the most difficult, actually, honestly, even more so than the 2000s. How? Even though the greats are some of the greatest,

but the 40s is so loaded. The 40s to me is, I know it's loaded and we should go, I mean, I think to me it's going to be Wells, right? Because, I mean, at least for me.

No, because he starts in the 30s. He has a film pre-Cain with Joseph Cotton that is shot on the stage that is was the theatrically released movie Sam look what you've done

wait a minute you've opened up spreadsheet Sean because Citizen Kane is considered one of the best this is insane what is this Sean

I thought we were going to have fun how many minutes in are we and this has just already gone to hell I'll pull the film up for you guys right now if you'd like

this is a theatrically... I mean, the guy was 26 when he made Citizen Kane. How old was he when he made this movie? I mean, he was younger than that. He was still working in the Mercury Theater at the time. Let's take a quick look at it. This was distributed through a studio? I believe so.

I believe it was RKO because that was when he had... Well, who were the other names in the 40s? So I can just start mulling this over. I'll give you my list. And this is a profound list. Elia Kazan, Akira Kurosawa, Ingmar Bergman, Vincent Minnelli, Vittorio De Sica, Roberto Rossellini, Jules Dassen, Nicholas Ray, Robert Bresson, Sam Fuller, John Sturges, Jean-Pierre Melville, John Houston, and then my Choice, which should we be revealing our choices? Are we doing it? Sure.

Let's do it. My choice is Preston Sturges. I knew that was going to be. Who is my favorite writer of all time. Wait, and where's Wilder? Wilder is the 30s because he made films in France. What's your choice? I mean, I got to think because I didn't prep.

I mean, that's a tough deck. That's a tough. Yeah, mine. You didn't read mine. Really? Yeah. Oh, great. Stanley Don didn't prep. I mean, that's a tough deck. That's a tough. Yeah, mine. You didn't read mine. Really? Yeah. Oh, great. Stanley Donen and Gene Kelly.

Oh, that's great. That's great. That's fantastic. So that's great. The independent and whatever works together for both of them. What's your favorite Stanley Donen, Gene Kelly? I'm a simple girl, so it's going to be singing in the rain, but I have an appreciation for all of them.

I, you know, funny face is pretty important to me personally and visually. Yes, yes. You can call it to mind. Just to clear up the Wells thing, the film is called Too Much Johnson. It was released in 1938 by Warner Brothers, produced by John Hausman, directed by Orson Welles, starring Joseph. This is what it's like for me every day, Sam. I do not believe. Every day.

This is awful. Better to be right than wrong. Okay. God. So, okay. Should I run it down again? You need to know? No, no, please.

Do it. John Houston, Kazan, Kurosawa, Bergman, Minnelli, DeSica, Rossellini, Dawson, Ray, Brisson, Fuller, Sturges, Donnan, and Kelly, Melville. And Preston Sturges was my choice. I'm going to, I'll go with, I'll go with Bergman. Okay. I think there's no, there's no downside to that choice. I think we've all made good choices that probably say a lot about all three of us.

That's a good decade. It is. It is. And you got to consider a lot of the kind of heavyweights of this time who are making films at this time started earlier. You know, like the David Leans. David Lean was making movies in the 20s. So we don't see a lot of the... This is like...

Hitchcock is not in the 40s. He starts in the late 20s. So it's pretty amazing that even without some of the most hallowed filmmakers in history, you still get that lineup. When is Fellini? Fellini's coming up. Is he 50s? He's 50s. Really? Do we's coming up yeah is he 50s he's 50s should really do we need a long list for the 50s again um no because it's Kubrick it's it's Kubrick

and I fucking love Fellini I mean he's my backup he's my number two when is when's been well well uh when Chen on the loo is I believe 1929 and that's a short theatrically released though wait we said feature directorial debut. So I guess his feature, I think, is not until the 50s, right? What is it? Is it Belle de Jour? What's his first film? I can't remember.

This is dynamite podcasting. We're going deep. Okay, Amanda, you go. 50s. Sidney Lumet. I love Sidney Lumet. Me too. Thank you.

He was my number four. Yeah. So better than Kubrick. Talk about that for a second. Yeah, well, it's just the hype. Again, it's the thing of emphasis. You and I are going to have a supportive but fundamental disagreement. Amanda, I just want to understand.

Did Kubrick make a bad movie in your eyes? No. And I know that Sidney Lumet made a lot of bad movies, but that's kind of the fun. I appreciate the wide-ranging, going to try everything. Were Lumet's highs higher for you than Kubrick's highs? That's my next question. In terms of what I respond to in a movie and how it influenced my movie watching, yes. I just like an adult, grown-up drama where people are talking about ideas and yelling at each other.

And I think I learned so much of that. So this is like more of an emotional connection you have with Sidney Lumet. Yeah. Okay. I think he goes back to that thing we're talking about, which it's sort of the Rob Reiner thing. It's right. He was great with actors, had a great eye for scripts. Great storyteller. Yes.

And I think was good at, was obviously a sophisticated filmmaker, but not, no flash. No flash. No flash at all. None whatsoever. None whatsoever. A theater and television guy who brought that ethic to filmmaking. And I like the, like the wide ranging approach. I like that he's making different things.

I mean, he made Murder on the Orient Express, which as like a Agatha Christie person, it's not even my favorite Agatha Christie thing, but I like that he tried. He made The Group, an adaptation of The Group. Do you know what The Group is? This is Lumet you're talking about. Yes. So The Group is a Mary McCarthy novel from the 30s, I think. Let me check this. I think that's right.

Yeah. Because it's, yes. And it's kind of like, it's one of the early books about like young women and women graduating college it's like it's it's rude to put it in the lineage of sex in the city but it's the same idea of it's like a group of young women and they have marriages and they have careers and some things go well and some things go poorly but he just like made that it's not very good it's in the 60s but i i like you like that he's versatile and jumps around yeah can i also throw out a name of a filmmaker that jumps

around sure stanley fucking kubrick my guy is stanley kubrick goes from a comedy to sci-fi the war years being like oh like what should i make I don't, I like, I don't like people. You like messier. You like messier filmmaking. I like people trying things. I like confidence. I like, you know, let's see. You know who else is confident?

Sure, yeah. Stanley. I know. Wait, this is your chance to talk about why you like Stanley Kubrick. Well, I mean, so when I was young, right, my, like the movie I watched obsessively for some weird reason was The French Connection because I liked car chases. And then I got into really slasher, you know, like the Halloween Jason. And I remember just liking Viscera. You know what I mean?

I just wanted to feel something crazy and shocking. And then I kind of segued, and this is not resonating i don't know like try being a woman you feel something shocking all the time anyway that's life you're okay keep going though i'm with you okay your time to shine and then i went to and then my my taste went to rob reiner back to the future ghostbusters where where it was like these like poppy films, but they were kind of slightly subversive. But I remember they were just, you know, they were super entertaining and they kind of had a little something to say that was off the, you know, off the beaten trail. And then in high school, someone suggested doing a Kubrick film festival. And even though I'd wanted to be a

filmmaker and i fancied myself a film nerd i'd never heard of kubrick in fact i thought he was like a cinematographer and i'm like isn't he a dp and no no this is a director so this is what i did in high school we uh you know i was 14 we went to my friend's house at 10 p.m. We stayed up all night and we watched 2001, A Clockwork Orange, Strange Love, and Full Metal Jacket as the sun was rising. That was the last one I remember.

And that's when, I mean, that's like a moment when you realize, holy shit, film is much, has much more potential than what I had seen up until that point.

And by the way, I think I'd seen maybe Good fellows a couple of years before this and unforgiven, which masterpiece. And, um, and I'd started getting into Woody Allen, but Kubrick,

because to me, Kubrick was like really subversive, was really visual. Like the filmmaking was like off the charts. Um, and he was saying something thematically interesting in every single one of them and it was like loaded but not preachy and then the third thing is and at least in my opinion they were all incredibly fucking entertaining like i remember

you know do you remember the merchant ivory run in the early 90s i mean holy watch out i mean you love those movies, right? I mean, I assume. Some of them, I like the good ones. I've seen all of them on like certain people

at this day. I have not seen all of them. Yeah. I used to force myself to watch them because I was like, this is my vegetables, right?

I want to be a filmmaker. These keep getting nominated for best pick. Number one, right? But it always, it was always, it always showed up

everyone's top 10 list and I read, read all the critics' four stars, and I just never found them entertaining. I thought they were interesting. The performances were good. The writing was elegant at times. I'm not even knocking the filmmaking. I thought it was really interesting, but I was bored. And I've just felt like Kubrick, however he did it, was able to say something important and do it in this flashy kind of way, but that didn't draw attention to itself and that just entertained the fuck out of me. It's a very spirited defense. I also chose Stanley Kubrick.

I'm not going to say that Stanley Kubrick is bad. Stanley Kubrick's a genius. You're not going to bait me into that. What's your favorite of his films? Yeah. I know that you will think that this is surprising. Well, I was about to say The Shining, but maybe I say Eyes Wide Shut. I would have guessed Eyes Wide Shut.

Yeah, because I do like the metatextual element of Tom and Nicole. But even there, what I'm responding to are things that are not actually, he's playing with them in the movie. But it's not the wacky shit that you're seeing on screen. Right. What about you? What's your favorite? Well, I'll be honest with you. Eyes Wide Shut is probably the one I've seen the most for whatever reason that's like comfort food to me.

That's insane. That's insane. Yeah, I understand that. But God, I don't know. It always goes back and forth between. I have the same problem with Scorsese. I'm always like Taxi Driver, then Raging Gold, and Goodfellas. But, I mean, I would have to.

I'll probably go with 2001, even though that's like a lame, cliched answer. Mine is Strangelove. It's nice that we have some different choices. So, we settled on the 50s. Well, no, what did you do? Are you going Kubrick? I'm going Kubrick. My order would have been Kubrick, Fellini, Altman, Lumet.

Yeah. And then, you know, like Truffaut is the 50s, and Tarkovsky, and Blake Edwards. Like a lot of different kinds of film. Sadegit Ray comes along at that time. Like there are a lot of important filmmakers who come along at this time, but a lot less than in the 40s,

and a lot less than in the 50s, which is over the 60s rather, which is pretty interesting. I don't really know what accounts for that. And a lot less when we get to the 70s, right? For sure.

Should we go to the 60s? This is like being on a really bad date in college. How dare you? I took that as a compliment. I don't know. All right, 60s. Couldn't you just say that

about every episode of this show? Yes, I could. I could say that about pretty much every adult choice that I've made. So, I don't know. Again, this podcast is a personality test. 1960s. What are the options? There are so many.

So many. This was a good decade. It was. I like that I missed some in the 50s. I hope I miss some in the 60s, too. But I'll give you my lineup. Okay. Mike Nichols. I love sure. And this was a good decade. It was. I like that I missed some in the 50s. I hope I miss them in the 60s too, but I'll give you my lineup. Okay. Mike Nichols.

I love Mike. Woody Allen. I mean. Complex conversation. Let's the films of Woody Allen. Yes. Speaking of the films

of Roman Polanski. Oh my God. Sergio Leone. Sam Peckinpah. Mel Brooks. I am so excited to hear what Amanda is going to pick. George Lucas. Because you're not going to go wrong on this one.

That's true. Milo Shvormann. Jean-Luc Godard. You did go wrong on the last decade. William Friedkin. Jacques Demy. Brian De Palma. Jesus Christ.

George Romero. Bob Fosse. Bernardo Bertolucci. Sidney Pollack. Werner Herzog. I want to remember this decade when we get to the 90s. So let's just make this a callback. Alan Pakula, and then, of course, Francis Ford Coppola and Martin Scorsese.

So that's amazing. Now, one thing that is not there, not a single woman. We haven't had a single woman on any of these lists. I know, but this is when the industry starts to open up. This is when the new Hollywood starts to formulate. Oh, really? Theoretically. Can we talk about that for a second? Why do we think that this was such a birth year for amazing filmmaking talent?

I have, I mean, I have theories. I also have a lot of received wisdom from, you know, Manny Farber and Andrew Sarris and Pauline Kael and all the people that I was reading when I was growing up trying to figure this out. Some of it is that international cinema starts to infect the brains of young Americans. And so what you get is this incredible, fertile period of 19-year-olds getting excited about Bergman or Rossellini or, you know, and then simultaneously you've got all these kids in France who are just absolutely American movie crazy and are obsessed with Hitchcock and obsessed with George Cukor and Howard Hawks and are using those movies to make their own movies.

So you take those two things, and, you know, the French sort of starts to happen before the Scorseses and the Coppola starts to happen, and you get this boomlet. In addition to that, Hollywood, I think, runs out of ideas for how to make successful movies. And in the mid-'60s, you get this weird glut of overloaded, bad musicals and big-time flops, and they start to take more chances on kids who have a lot of big ideas.

See, that last part, and I think, again, we're going to do a callback in the 90s, but I love that, I do think that it was somewhat the failure of the machine that required the studios to look elsewhere for talent.

If we want to add one woman, I think that the one significant female figure who emerges this time is Agnes Varda. I have her on my list, but she's not in the 60s. I thought she was 50s, yeah. She's technically made a film in the 50s. I don't know if that film ever got released. Well, I had her

down in the 70s. No, because Cleo from 5 to 7 is the the 50s. I don't know if that film ever got released. Well, I had her down in the 70s. No, because Cleo from 5 to 7 is the early 60s. She does a lot of, I think, her best movies in the 70s. But, like, there is a film

in the 50s that she releases, La Poncourt. It's, like, an important movie. But, I don't... You don't have to defend it to me. Nobody cares about this. Agnes Varda is obviously very important as well.

Yeah, I mean, Vagabond is like... She's the best. Wait, so can I start this 60s thing? Did I forget anybody on your list? No. Did you say Fassbender? I did not. Come on.

So Rainer Werner Fassbender. Yes. Man, you got everybody else on my list. Go ahead, Amanda. So I think we should have a conversation about all the many wonderful filmmakers that you just named including like the person that i actually wanted to pick but i basically i think you're a coward if you don't do either scorsese or coppola in this and i feel like that is sort of the essential who are you well what about wo? I, again.

You'd still say it's Chris Azar Coppola over Woody? Don't you just feel like that's sort of the fundamental? Anything else seems like a cop-out to me. I, so it raises an interesting question about this game, which is, is it about the totality of the person's career? Is it about their longevity? I mean, we're, let's. That's, well, I know that's why that's, it's, those two are interesting. It kind of, it boils it down. I think Woody has more

masterpieces in my opinion than Scorsese and Coppola. You don't agree with that? I mean, just because he, the output is more, I'm not even like, but that also means simultaneously, he's got more duds. No, if we're doing great point average, fine. But then Amanda needs to change Lumet to Kubrick from the 50s. But if we're just doing like, how many great films did the guy make? I mean, I'm just saying he's probably in that block at least. Let me reframe that slightly. Sergio Leone never made a bad movie. He made six movies.

They're all classics. I mean. So how do we measure this? And not only are they classics, three of them are like in the top 100 ever. If you ask Quentin, he'll say Great Point Average.

Right. Because he cares. That's what matters, Dan. Yeah. Is everyone being a hit. To me, I just remember growing up thinking Woody is just,

I really respond to just creativity. And the fact that that motherfucker every year put something out, and for the most part, especially in the initial run from the 70s to the 80s, they were all pretty mostly good,

if not masterpieces. Nothing below a B plus, basically. Right. It wasn't until recently, in the last maybe 15 years, that he started to fall off. So I remember admiring that a lot. And I remember being frustrated with filmmakers. Like, you commented this about Kubrick, and I take that criticism where they take seven years in between movies. It's a little precious, yeah.

And then it's just like, come on, just try something. Just go for it. So I don't know. It's up to us how we want to it's complicated too because some people some filmmakers as you know have incredible 10 year stretches or 20 year stretches and then have very very poor back nines where they don't really make really anything

that's usually what happens right yes it's what you can argue that with Coppola if you want to although I haven't seen

this recent did you see Tetro and stuff like that yeah I've seen all those movies um Twixt I've seen Twixt uh they're saying they're not they're not these are title there's a movie titles yes those are small films that he made some in italy um that are not very good is it that fucking crazy that he's making movies that no one's heard of or is talking about and he

perhaps directed the best film ever made he hates hollywood and he hates the apparatus i feel the same like so dopama by the way is like a personal like okay if we're talking about the director i watched obsessively out of all the and pakula i would say it's those two and woody but primarily dopama just because to use your word athletic you. You can't say De Palma without saying, I guess, using that word athletic. Yes, I know, though. I think he also kind of invented things that are showy but don't have that same masculinity per se. It's more just like the split screens. Maybe I'm not understanding the word athletic.

Well, I don't think that, like, do you think split screens or, like, match cuts or that kind of stuff is athletic? Or is it just stylistic stylish well it's i don't think it's athletic i think it's stylistic and also often showy which and they and they are related they're related but they're separate is athletic just oners no though i think that it's like a dominant force of it it's it's really i don't, you know, number one, Will Pasken made this up, not me. And also, too, like we haven't written the film dictionary about this. But I associate it with just the portrayal of filmmaking as like an actual physical achievement. Like, and not just like a.

Like a technical, you mean a technical? But almost like an endurance endurance like an element of like the idea that we went to war in order to make this movie or also like apocalypse now would be athletic yes filmmaking yeah that was yeah yeah i think michael bay could be an athletic filmmaker if you wanted to describe it that way it's not only the sort of refined art of cinema Copacabana shot it's also like a there's a kind of a power implied there also um I think if you're an innovator I wonder how that how much that matters like if Kubrick innovates well so is Kubrick athletic no not in the same way I don't know I'm making this up on the spot I I wouldn't think of him that way, primarily because you have picked up on something dismissive in the valence of athletic.

And that is true. And it's innovation plays a part in avoiding the athletic aspect of it. I think that's perceptive. When you use that word, are you using it pejoratively? Often, yes. aspect of it i think that's perceptive when you use that word yeah are you using it pejoratively often yes though i wouldn't have said that out loud until you picked up on it but again this is a wonderful therapy we are yeah we're one of the things is we're all listening to each other it's really beautiful but wait can i here's thing. To the extent that this is an exercise where we examine and or create like the canon, as it were, I think that you just have to, you have to take a stand between Scorsese and Coppola in terms of where the canon is. And then we can all talk about our favorites.

Because mine is, you know. Well, I would throw in Woody. And I would say Woody. You're taking Woody. I like the pick. I admire the pick. I don't admire our inability to talk

about Woody Allen in uncomplicated ways anymore it kind of sucks that that's the case setting all that aside there's no case for Mel Brooks right who only made 11 movies

great and who is not known as a filmmaker you're allowed a personal pick as well I wouldn't choose him over Martin Scorsese I'm not insane

wait we're doing just the, if we were only picking between those three. Yeah, because let's, But then we're going to pick our real, our real. Yes, exactly. Oh, you're saying

we're picking between Scorsese, Coppola, and Woody as the power trio? Yes. My pick would always be Scorsese. I agree with you. But I'm surprised that there's no,

I did this with my husband and he was like Coppola. And it was a little bit about the argument of the highest highs versus the... See, I think Goodfellas is better than Godfather. It's pretty neck and neck for me. I also, Scorsese's movies are the movies that made me feel more alive. I agree. Due to that point.

I agree. I mean, like, I love the Godfather, but I admire it more than I enjoy it. And the same goes with Godfather Part 2, which actually, like, more love The Godfather, but I admire it more than I enjoy it. I mean, and the same goes with Godfather Part 2, which I actually like more than Godfather Part 1. But, and honestly, The Conversation, I probably watched way more than either one of those. Same with Apocalypse Now. But Scorsese, I mean, Taxi Driver, I obsessively watched and rewatched. Wait, you picked Scorsese? Yeah, of course.

Okay. And what's your favorite Scorsese movie out of curiosity that's a great question i don't do i i don't know if i have a favorite i think it's it's more like a body of work i mean i love the age of innocence if you just want to get yeah that's the thing is he kind of checks your lumet box he does a lot of different kinds of things and i'm responding to like a vision and a like a mind as much to any one given film, which I guess is how I am evaluating these people. But, you know, Goodfellas, I'm not a monster. I don't understand the plot of Goodfellas. Totally.

That's one of my worst takes. I just like I don't really understand how the mafia works still. But incredible movie. Wolf of Wall Street. Please respect. And the Irishman, which, you know. I mean, that's the other case is that he just has just an incredible, say what you, you may not like Shutter Island, you may not like Hugo.

I love Shutter Island. You know, like, even if you don't like those films, you can't deny that he has stayed in the center of film culture, which is so amazing for somebody in their 60s and 70s. It's just so uncommon. Even Kubrick, who really just made two movies in between 1981 and 2000 before he passed on.

I mean, that's two movies? Scorsese's made like 15 movies in this century. Okay, but now let me throw in Woody. That's true. A lot of those movies suck. Okay. So if we're talking

grade point average, fine. You just argued that Marty, okay, some of his movies weren't the best, right? But Woody, so if we're talking great point average fine I can you know you just argued that Marty okay some of his movies weren't the best right but Woody I mean

should we run down the list I mean take the money and run bananas sleeper Annie Hall Manhattan Crimes and Misdemeanors Hannah and Her Sisters

what's your favorite well this is another tough one I probably always say Manhattan but Deconstructing Harry is up there for me. Yeah, that's a good one. Amanda, what are your vibes on Woody Allen? I love a lot of things that owe a lot to Woody Allen, if that makes any sense. And so I respect.

But you admire not a lot. It's interesting because it's when you come to stuff, right? And I have seen, I think that I saw a lot of Noah Baumbach movies and a lot of romantic comedies before I saw Annie Hall or any of the. And so you just don't respond the same way. And so I respect as much as, which again, this is a complicated conversation. You know, there is the fact that he is so a part of this movie that it's such a personal thing that does make it slightly more complicated than the average conversation. But I think everything that you're saying is right. Because of the way that I watched movies, I came to it after I saw the influences.

Yeah, you watched the influences before. What about you? Grimes and Misdemeanors. I love that. I think that's probably I saw the influences. Yeah, you watched the influences before. What about you? Crimes and Misdemeanors. I love that. I think that's probably the most complex thing. Honestly, I used to maybe re-watch three or four of his movies every year, like nonstop, Manhattan definitely. I haven't done that in the last five years.

He also is not, this is going to seem strange, but he's not really in the streaming world. People are not re-watching his work the way that they might re-watch even some of the other masters. But I think to Amanda's point, it's complicated to re-watch because he is in every single movie. And a lot of the, like, I mean, when we were doing the top TV shows of the decade on the watch, you know, Louis was a show that I fucking loved. You put it on your list. And I can, I did not put it on my list.

I thought you did put it on your list. No, I took it off because I can't rewatch Louis. Oh. And I think that's got to factor into how much I love something

because, I mean, now that when I re, if you rewatch some of those episodes in light of everything, it's, it's a hard thing to take in. It's a hard thing.

Manhattan more than anything, I think, is one of the most complicated rewatches around. What do you do with that movie? I will say just also regardless of all of the extremely complicated issues, the fact that he is such a person in his movies and it is such a specific viewpoint, I don't relate to Woody Allen as much as I relate to other people who make movies just

because i'm i'm a woman and i guess i am maybe nebbish but i don't know so there is also a different kind of anxiety thank you very much that's a generous way of putting it so to me the personality thing that is such an innovation and i do think speaks to a lot of people is also ultimately like i don't want to say a limitation because I think the movies are fantastic, but that's maybe why I'm not as like wild about it as you are. My final choice is Scorsese. What is your final choice for the 1960s? I mean,

you're going to hate. Can I do my personal? Yeah. I almost got, you didn't choose your, I almost got cute and did my neck, Mike Nichols. And I think Mike Nichols is my honest answer.

He's phenomenal. I love Mike Nichols. Also made a lot of misses. That's true. But the good ones are just. I agree. I went back and forth with De Palma and Pakula. But I just went with Pakula.

It's just too. Did you check out the Clute Criterion? Oh, my God. It's unreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unreal. Look, Amanda's here. So we can't go too deep into it.

But the guy's a master. I mean, you've seen his films, right? Yes, of course. And how do you feel about... I can't say that I've spent a lot of time with them, to be honest. It's like a tick box. I don't mean to be rude about this. This is like being on a bad date in college.

But a lot of things get handed to you from the ages of 16. Well, All the President's Men, though, I feel like is fairly universal. Yeah, of course. Pop film in a way. Parallax view. Yeah, I like that. Sure, yeah. But you don't.

No. They're vegetables. Like the Merchant Ivory. No, no, no. Not even vegetables. No. And I don't mean to. Everyone we're talking about here is excellent at making films it's it's it's honestly

my reactions are more to people nerding out about them at great length and because it's what people oh i see that's what you mean by the bad college yeah it's the conversation around the movie i mean do you know how many times i've seen the fucking last waltz do you want to know how many times I've seen the fucking last waltz? Do you want to know how many times? Do you want to? That is just like the date move for every single boy born between like 1975 and 1990. Pretty wide range there, by the way. That's me. But I don't care.

I don't care about the last waltz. I can't believe there's another documentary about the band coming. How are we doing this? Amanda, shame on you. At the risk of this being a three-hour podcast, I think we should go to the 70s. Okay, here we go. What hour mark are we at? We're about 40 in, 45 maybe.

I'm thinking potentially of making this a two-part episode. Because that was a good conversation, and I don't want to not have good conversations. But we have five decades to go. I'm going to embarrass myself. I don't want to not have good conversations, but we have five decades to go. I'm going to embarrass myself. I've never seen The Last Waltz. Does that impress you? Shame on you, Sam. I guess you weren't dating men of that generation.

That's okay. By the way, I don't remember a lot of people talking about Pakula either. Pakula was not even in film school. He was running in seventh 7th place in the atmosphere of 60s and 70s directors. People were talking about Fellini and Bergman. No, I think that's true, but

to any extent, unless you're like given all of these movies at the age of 5, which I was not, you kind of create your own education and I should go see this and I should go see that and even the sources of who you're consulting be like, oh, I guess I should check out this movie. They had a pattern for me for a while i think what has emerged here is sam is standing in for all the guys who listen to this show who are like i could do a better job of

engaging with amanda than sean does and frankly um that's that's true uh 1970s should i do a long list yeah i want to hear it we got the we got the johns we got john carpenter john waters john That's true. 1970s. Should I do a long list? Yeah. I want to hear it. We got the Johns. We got John Carpenter, John Waters, John Landis, John Woo, and Jonathan Demme. Demme. Demme. Don't sleep on Demme.

I'm not sleeping on him. I feel like you both are going to sleep on Demme. You'd be surprised. David Cronenberg, David Lynch, Ridley Scott, Albert Brooks, Hayao Miyazaki, Errol Morris, Clint Eastwood, Terrence Malick, Hal Ashby, Dario Argento, Nicholas Rogue, Stephen Frears, Paul Verhoeven, Peter Weir, Chantal Ackerman,

Wes Craven, Oliver Stone, Terry Gilliam, Walter Hill, Paul Schrader, Warren Beatty, and Steven Spielberg. Holy shit. Did you say Ammodovar? I saw the 80s for him. Is it he in the 70s? Yeah.

Folly, Folly, I'm going to butcher this. Folem Tim? With an exclamation mark? Tim. Well, if he goes into the 70s, then he goes into the 70s.

Yeah. So that makes it even harder. Now, again, not... This is a hard one because I have a strong personal, but I think to me, there's a clear winner. Talk through it.

Talk through it. I mean, your personal is David Lynch, right? No, that's my like undisputed. Oh, that's your clear winner. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

Okay. I'm not, I didn't go there. Oh, wait, who, who's better? This is going to be a little bit like, yeah, you're going to yell at me again and that's fine. But no, because I do have a lot of good personal and for me, fuck.

I mean, Demi is like He's my number two. He's there. He's my number two. He's in my heart. You didn't do Demi? I thought you might. I thought about it.

My husband did. I'm in hell. He also has I don't want to be rude but he has some duds. He's got some actually actively bad films while also having a few films that kind of scrape the ceiling of greatness. When I was thinking, when Parasite won and shocked me as like, oh my God, the actual, yeah, the best picture won the best picture.

I went back and thought about my other favorite best pictures. And, you know, I think, I think no country comes up, but even that year, which was like a great year for, if you recall,

Michael Clayton came out that year and there will be blood came out that year. And probably personally, I would give the slight edge to there will be blood, but silence of the lambs. Yeah. One of the best, best picture winners.

And what a weird movie to fucking win. Best picture. It was also the lastbs. Yeah. One of the best, best picture winners. And what a weird movie to fucking win best picture. It was also the last five for five. The last time picture, director, writer, actor, actress.

Yeah. And isn't, that is a movie that there is like no debate about. And it's interesting, like there is a debate still weirdly in the world

about Goodfellas. But Silence of the Lambs, no one has, there's no conversation. Exactly. There's no ding against Silence of the Lambs. What a per a per i mean this is what i mean because i keep going back to the word entertaining because again a lot of best picture winners especially suffer from the lack of entertainment and silence of the lambs is just like checks all it is not pretentious in the

slightest yet it is so artfully rendered and so beautifully made. And the writing is perfect. I mean, I could go on and on. It is the same thing as Parasite, too, which is it is just straight up accessible entertainment. Yes. If you want it to be just a movie to watch on a Friday night, it serves its purpose. Is that athletic? No.

Here's the thing. If you make a great movie, then you don't have to. So Paras parasite was not athletic no like as as you identified it is it is you guys can't take over all of film history and also athletic okay i get to decide what we're asking you we're asking you we thought you were very perceptive when you understood that athletic was an insult. And this is the other thing about me and my taste, which is like if a movie is like truly excellent, then none of my other rules apply. Because I am particular and I have a lot of rules.

But there are films that just come together in a transcendent way. Right. And then it doesn't matter if it's like, well, I haven't seen a superhero movie yet that did it, but maybe it will. So it's it doesn't know it's not athletic to answer your question. The other personals of the 70s is is probably Cronenberg and Hal Ashby. Hal Ashby is a tough one because he made four, right? During the 70s, four films? No, he made nine films, I think.

But a lot of them are not, like, the Slugger's Wife and stuff, people don't care about that stuff, but he made four knockdown classics, yeah.

Anyway, he's up there, you go. Oh, 70s? Yeah, you haven't picked yet. I'm a populist,

so I'm going with Steven Spielberg. Okay. That was a joke, I'm not a populist, but it is Steven Spielberg. For me,

I don't know. You know, Spielberg is one of the reasons why I'm not a populist, but it is Steven Spielberg. For me, I don't know. You know, Spielberg is one of the reasons why I wanted to be a filmmaker. Can I quickly tell this story? Of course. You and Dawson Leary. Do you get that reference? No. Okay, that's from Dawson's Creek.

And he wants to be Steven Spielberg. Did not watch Dawson's Creek. That doesn't shock me. But I'm just keeping you up to date. Here's why Spielberg. Because I loved Close Encounters. And I think I saw it as a young kid, like, you know, on whatever. And we stole cable at my house.

And I think I watched it that way. It's okay. Statute of limitations. It's fine. Right. Exactly. But the movie. So I had never been to a movie theater.

And my parents were immigrants. They didn't understand. They just thought it was too expensive. But I begged them, and they were like, fine. I was five, I think, when E.T. came out. And all my classmates were obsessing about this movie. And it was like, aliens, and oh, my God, and it's Spielberg. And I'm like, okay, I'm going.

And I convinced my parents. I was five. They bought me a ticket and then let me into the theater and then left. Because, again, it's too expensive for them to sit in with me. And I remember watching it and being bored out of my mind. And the first thought I had was I could do better than that and that that is that is i was a little shit i was a little five-year-old shit and that that i and and you know to me it's like i love jurassic park and i love schindler's list and raiders and all that um but weirdly et was like

the thing that and and later i i think i i appreciate it more because you know i think what obviously that movie you know now now in hindsight looking back it was really about a drama and about these kids about these kids who are living through a divorce and um and but i just remember feeling spielberg to me and i don't know what it is there's this like weird disconnect that I have with him because he doesn't he doesn't give me

the viscera that I think he is known for I mean that is what he's kind of like the director of You mean because of Saving Private Ryan?

I just don't get as absorbed I don't know what it is I don't get I don't go on the ride like everybody else does. Well, I think he's such a... By the way, he's athletic.

Yeah. I noticed his camera moves a lot. No, I think that's true. And they are so essential to the tone and the storytelling. And they are visible. It's just the invention of the modern blockbuster and the good sense of the word. And it's,

it is a little schlocky and sentimental. I just don't buy it. Yeah. I do respond to that. And I think also you're talking to the two children of divorce. So maybe, maybe that's it as well. Big theme in his films.

I think it's athletic. It's to me, there's a difference between technical and athletic and i think he's like very technically gifted but there are just like the the big tent story elements and the kind of big tent action sequences that that are also legible to me i agree look look yeah yeah you go i'm just gonna say that sean and i like sometimes do movie swaps, or we've done one and we're going to do another, where I make him watch it. What is this? Oh, you make him?

Yeah, I made him watch Sense and Sensibility, the Ang Lee. I love that movie. Thank you, me too. It's one of my favorites, and Sean had never seen it, and he made me watch Spider-Verse. Spider-Man and Spider-Verse. And that was interesting on a lot of levels. But the next one we're going to do, I suggested an action, Sean, pick an action movie for me because I realized I don't really know how to watch action sequences. Like at some point, it's just things are happening and people are fighting and I'm not invested. And but there but there is something about Spielberg that I know what I'm watching. No, 100 percent.

Spielberg is a great action filmmaker. And by the way, James Cameron, great action filmmaker. But you are right to feel that most action films are incoherent because they are. I mean, literally, there are YouTube videos

where the editing is sloppy and the cause of something happens after the effect of it. And it's just, it's meant to disorient you because they don't have the right coverage and because they didn't think through how to shoot certain sequences.

Whereas Spielberg, I mean, again, I love Raiders, every action sequence. I know where I'm at. I know the orientation. I know where Indy is. I know where the Nazis are. And I'm constantly like, I'm enthralled by all that. I just emotionally,

and I guess the Schmaltz works with you, but emotionally it just never, I never bought it. I never bought into it. I don't know why. Yeah, I'm pretty basic when it comes to that. I'm glad you. She is not basic. You're definitely not basic.

Mentally complex, I can assure you. Very complicated. Also, there is something about the collective power of a movie where you go sit and you watch Raiders or you watch E.T. and everyone is responding to it that I find powerful. I'm not immune to like waves of emotion or at least I wasn't, you know, in my teens and 20s. Now I'm probably a cynic but whatever I'm glad you mentioned James Cameron because candidly the film the two films I'm trying to choose between for this swap that we're talking about

are Aliens and Terminator 2 those are the movies that wait you've never seen Aliens or Terminator 2 I was just googling I've seen Alien

not Aliens but not Aliens Alien is fucking dope but Aliens is fucking amazing okay different and actually does I think we'll do what we're talking about anyhow Alien is fucking dope but Aliens is fucking amazing okay

different and actually does I think we'll do what we're talking about anyhow wait is Cameron 80s? he's 80s so we will get there

is that Piranha? Piranha 2 Piranha 2 right I'm picking John Carpenter now I I yes I

yes yes 100% yes Spielberg makes a lot of sense for the sake of podcasting. I think Spielberg is a difficult one to avoid. I also think there's a rock solid David Lynch case. I don't understand how it's not David Lynch. But John Carpenter's movies, I honestly just have responded to more in my life.

I agree. I agree. That's emotional gut. But David Lynch has how many masterpieces? I mean, are we debating that? No. Amanda? I'm not taking David Lynch away from I mean, are we debating that? No. Amanda? I'm not taking David Lynch away from you.

But are we debating that he, oh, you don't think. I don't respond to, like I said, I'm fairly basic. Let me ask you a question. Blue Velvet, is it a masterpiece? Yes. Okay. Yeah, of course. I'm not taking that away from you.

Mall and Drive? Of course. Twin Peaks? I don't want to go on a Twin Peaks journey with you. I really, really don't. I've listened to the other stuff. Elephant Man? I don't know if go on a Twin Peaks journey with you. I really, really don't. I've listened to the other stuff. Elephant Man? I don't know if I've seen Elephant Man, actually.

Dune? I also don't want to go on a Dune journey with you or anybody else. And unfortunately, I'm going to be going on it. Because the needability was bringing it back to us. I support you, Sam, and your passions. How do you feel about Lost Highway? I don't know if I've seen that either. I also,

this is one thing where, like I said, you're doing a self-education and you kind of watch the obligatory Lynch things and you're like, okay, I got it. And then you move on

to the things that. So that was like more of a chore, the David Lynch. Yeah, which is unfair. I mean, it is interesting the experience of like

seeking something out and watching it on your own, like usually on a weird Netflix DVD or you know or something that you borrowed and what are you getting out of that

and by yourself like the he's your classical like it's just better to see it in a theater yeah of course like if there's a if there's a run

of Blue Velvet hitting the new Beverly like you should just go but I saw Blue Velvet on video because I hadn't heard about it until high school it was the only way to see it

when we were growing up and 4x3 standard definition really shitty But I saw Blue Velvet on video because I hadn't heard about it until high school. It was the only way to see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And four by three, standard definition, really shitty. But fuck, I was... Again, I guess, you know, the thing that I... You know, we haven't talked about, like, why certain filmmakers resonate or why they don't. But to me, the thing that Pakula did and even Woody and, and I'll say Scorsese, uh, and,

and, and definitely David Lynch is that it was so different. And so like, I've never seen that, but I never even thought about doing like, why are people talking in the way that they are talking? And why is there so much, so much air between all the dialogue and what is this feeling I'm getting?

It's just, it was like a new, that's what it is. It introduced a new emotion to me because I had not felt that way watching a movie. And I think David Lynch in particular is a situation where I caught so many people ripping it off before I had a taste of the real thing. Got it. In such like a, and that's nobody's fault. But it's just that people have been doing Bad David Lynch

since what are we in the 70s? Well I think the other thing too is that unlike virtually every filmmaker we've talked about here there is no

the explanation for his work is never satisfying and it keeps you on an endless quest to understand to rewatch to figure out what he was putting his finger on the that air-like thing that you're describing that dream-like

quality in those movies gives us this open canvas that like you know even the best alan pakula movie i don't think really even provides right so it lets him endure in a way even though you know he has not made a lot of films like i know. If you look at his filmography, he's made, what, nine movies, 12 movies? But that to me is, yes, you're right. But that to me is like weirdly his power. Do you know back in the day, or even now, when you watch a movie and they do the dream sequence thing, and the dream sequence is usually some weird filter and it's like garbled audio. And the one thing I always feel after those dream sequences, that feels nothing like a dream to me.

I don't know why that's like turned into the formula for a dream sequence. And we all know what it is. David Lynch films feel closer to whatever that weird thing is. At least I personally feel in a dream. And he's not even doing a dream. That's his movie. Like that's the movie is the dream sequence and and that just is transportive that's I mean that's interesting and that's just like a philosophical I don't want to be in dreams I like I which Sean

gets like really upset about is that I'm like a I'm I'm a I'm a realist and I get drama you want I just get grounded I don't really like philosophy I don't yeah so I just don't at some point I'm a realist and I get, I get, I just get frustrated. I don't really like philosophy. I don't. Yeah. So I just don't, at some point I'm just like, okay, okay, okay,

okay. Like, I don't have a lot of patience. And that's, that's a fault possibly. But can I ask with Woody, not to retread this, but like,

don't you find his films are just classically great dramas? Like just the, the, the scenes just between people who want something from one another are so written of course yeah but not but didn't resonate in the same way that again i think it's a little bit of the things that he did i had seen trickle down to other things ahead of time the timing the timing is also i respond to different elements in a drama as well and there's like a there is appreciating and being like wow this is amazing and then there is also oh my god you've like tapped into like my personal vein and

woody allen movies like don't 100 don't do that got it most movies don't but uh there have been times on this podcast when i felt like you guys have been on a bad date so this has been interesting um did so you are you actually picking lynch yeah okay so you're going lynch i think and you're going Lynch I think and you're going Spielberg and I'm going John Carpenter I haven't really explained myself

but Sean what is your I know you did this so I don't think you have to think about it too much but what is your number one film

of the century so far there will be blood I think the social network is very close behind Mulholland Drive isn't even in the

conversation it would be in the conversation I love it. That was actually, I believe, a date movie for my now wife and I.

Wow. That's good. You can imagine that conversation after dinner. Yeah. But we both loved it, which was great,

which was a good sign. That was evidence of something. My wife, I think, in many ways, is very dreamlike. She likes the ethereal. Yeah, she does.

She also likes Woody Allen. She does. She loves Woody Allen. Woody Allen was very important. The films of Woody Allen. Yes.. She loves Woody Allen. Woody Allen was very important for her. The films of Woody Allen. Yes. She does not know him personally in any way. Should we go to the 80s?

Yes. Let's do it. This. This isn't just a bloodbath. It is? I think this is a drought. But you tell me. I have one answer that I feel very confident about.

I have one. I think there's one obvious. Okay. Okay. But let's hear it. You go. Spike Lee. Yeah. James Cameron. The Coen's one obvious. Okay. Okay, but let's hear it. You go. Spike Lee. Yeah.

James Cameron. The Coen brothers. Yes. Tony Scott. Steven Soderbergh. Wong Kar Wai. Yes. Cameron Crowe.

Sam Raimi. Catherine Bigelow. Lars von Trier. Tim Burton. Gus Van Zandt. Jim Jarmusch. Harold Ramis. Not to be underrated,

Robert Redford, John Sayles, Michael Mann, Jim Henson, John McTiernan, Peter Jackson, and Lawrence Kasdan. Okay, what about Claire Denis?

Claire Denis. Lars von Trier. I think I said him. I said him after Bigelow. Okay, got it. Claire Denis is good, though. That is a good addition. I mean,

so why is this so easy? Coen Brothers. I mean, I don't, what's close? Did you assume I would pick that? Yeah, of course I did. What is your pick?

Sam. No? No. I think he's an easy one. Yeah, he knows. I know exactly what she's doing. Yeah, of course he knows.

Yeah, I went with Steven Soderbergh. Oh. I love Soderbergh. Yeah. Like, every day, we wake up. I love Soderbergh.

You wake up, I wake up, Sean wakes up, and we take Steven Soderbergh for granted. And it stops now. I do not take Steven Soderbergh for granted. Everyone takes Steven Soderbergh for granted, except for me, maybe. I think he's fantastic. I think he's fantastic. I've seen every single one of his films. I'm excited every time he comes out with a movie.

By the way, like Woody, his output is fucking insane. And his experimentation is insane he's incredibly inventive um but coen brothers i know that that's important to you and i know that's important to sean do you do you like the coen brothers i like some coen brothers more than others same deal wait wait what is your pick well it's not coen brothers. I knew you would sit down in that chair and say Coen Brothers. So I did not choose the Coen Brothers. Though, you know, honestly, if this were Amanda and I having a private conversation, I would pick the Coen Brothers. The Coen Brothers changed my life.

Remember when you had like a full on meltdown on the Roger Deakins podcast? Because Chris and I would only let you put five Deakinsacons Coen Brothers collaborations on the Hall of Fame list. And you just you honestly started crying over Fargo. I did not start crying. You did. I was on Sean's side. This is lies. And I have backup here to join me on this.

You threw a tantrum. It's on video. Chris Ryan was totally out of line. Out of line. Thank you. Out of line. All time performance. Chris banned from this podcast, Ryan.

Shout out Rango, the frog sheriff. We're not going back to that place. We're going to the future. And so I chose Spike Lee. Wow. I think that's a good pick. I love Spike Lee. I do too.

Especially like, I mean, so School Days was his first? She's got to have it. She's got to have it. And then School Days. And then do the right thing. Do the right thing. Which is, you know, as beginnings go,

is pretty great. The other thing too is he remains genuinely vital filmmaker. I don't think Black Klansman was even in his top 10, but I think it's amazing that he can still

command attention. I'm very excited about his new movie, Defy Bloods. Me too. That's supposed to be very good. And he is a person who changed movies.

He changed movies forever. Now, I think the Coen brothers made north of 10 perfect movies. Yes. But I don't know and he is a person who changed movies he changed movies forever now I think the Coen brothers made north of 10 perfect movies yes but I don't know if they changed movies and so

this is my own made up rule I don't know you don't think there's a lot of Coen brothers rip offs I don't there may be but I don't think

that changed movies no I think Spike demanded that people rethink film history and film future. And on top of just making genuinely entertaining and fascinating films. And that goes for not just the obvious classics, but that goes for like the clockers of the world.

Those were movies that I saw when I was growing up. Or even Bamboozled. He's got a little bit of the Soderbergh thing in him because he shot that on like mini DV or something in the late 90s. And that was unheard of at the time. And that was, by the way, great movie. I don't know. Very entertaining. Very funny.

Coming to Criterion later this year. So, you know, I think Soderbergh. I'm not mad at any of these picks. Soderbergh and the Coen brothers are great picks. And I don't think we could really, there's no reason to fight over them. There's no debate. But can we talk about this decade? Yes.

You don't think there's a drought here? I mean, how do you say there's a drought when James Cameron and Wong Kar-wai came along? I mean, talk about this decade yes you don't think there's a drought here i mean how do you say there's a drought when james cameron and one car why came along i mean these talk about changing yeah but you're talking about yes but you're talking about like a few directors i just feel like we rattled off fucking masters in the 70s and 60s isn't this like a generational bias that we're talking about though because the people who who are there because we're about to get to the 90s okay which is even more generation i mean at least to me yeah we're no because we're about to get to the 90s which is even more I mean at least to me we're all close we're all close

okay and Anna is younger thank you you're welcome yeah I just think there's a draft I mean look

I don't think it's in hindsight even at the time but even definitely in hindsight week decade for movies I think it's going to

inform what happens coming up coming up in the night did you do you guys have a second place that you wanted to note i mean i love james cameron i think he changed action filmmaking i think action filmmaking was probably yeah i still think it is it's looked down upon it's not considered like actual great i don't know great great filmmaking or even great films now he had to make titanic an action movie to finally get recognized by i guess the academy or the critics or whatever it's like making a great i mean but i do think titanic is 13 when titanic came out please speak respectfully

i love titanic i love titanic okay oh no no think Titanic... The script is not good. See, to me... Well, here's the thing. Titanic is one of the best action films ever made. I do not know if I would say it's one of the best love stories ever made. And I know that primarily that was one of the reasons why people love that movie.

But the action in Titanic is fucking great. And I do think that... It's very involving. You get caught up in the characters. He made us invest really well in those two people before the action starts to kick in, which was really smart

and was what made the action even that much better. Yeah, I think that's important. And Titanic was the first James Cameron movie I had ever seen because I was like, oh, it's Leonardo DiCaprio in the romantic lead?

Sure, I'll go. And then it turned out to be a three-hour extravaganza with a ship breaking in two. Now, did you zone out, though, for the back half? I don't remember. There was a very performative element to being a teenager, a teenage girl, and going to see Titanic in the theaters. And everyone did it multiple times. I want you to know I only did it once. I was more into Good Will Hunting, which came out the same year. I was, I was like trying to be a cool kid even then, but which was actually a divide. Sean's laughing at me, but no, I think that everyone was just like so wrapped up in the emotion. It does help that, you know, what's going to happen.

Right. You know, but you don't, but you don't know what's going to happen between the two of them. Like I had seen enough romances to know what was going happen that's like the old you know i understand that structure right so i for some strange reason while i was sick last week re-watched the terminator which is not a movie that was big for me d2 is big for me but the original terminator is not and i think it's good and not perfect but the thing that stands out that i think is true in Titanic and in Aliens and in Terminator 2 and even in True Lies and the lesser loved movies is he has a better handle on movie iconography than pretty much anybody. He knows how to make a scene or a shot that you're like, oh, I'll never forget that. And that's also a part, I think, of choosing the people who do this stuff. Like Stanley Don and Gene Kelly

are the same thing they actually make moments in movies where you're like that is with us forever and that's a powerful thing his choreography his staging of action I mean it's

again Spielberg and him are probably go down in history as best action filmmakers we haven't said anything about Michael Mann this is usually

a very pro Michael Mann company I I love Heat. Not as much as our pal Chris. Oh, does he really love Heat? That makes sense. That actually makes sense. I love Heat.

That is what I'll say about Michael Mann. Man, it's got nothing. Shall we go to the 90s? Oh, do you know? You don't even love Heat. I think I've seen all of Heat. I don't know if I have ever told Chris this, but Chris still hasn't seen Little Women.

So here's what I'll say just to stay on brand. Cam Collins, Chaos and Collins, who worked here at The Ringer for a long time and is now a writer of Vanity Fair, he once made a joke that he just tells his female friends to put Heat on their online dating bios, even if they haven't seen it. And I think that sums up my thoughts about Heat.

Thank you very much. Yes. Heat bait is what that is. 1990s. You're so excited to talk about this decade. Well, let's rattle off the names. It's pretty intense. I mean, it's...

Pretty intense. Here we go. By the way, let's do the names first. I'm sure I've forgotten some too, so please feel free to fill in the gaps that I've missed. But I think this is the best decade of emerging

new filmmakers and after you rattle off the names I want to hear another decade that's better because it doesn't exist well that's I mean

it's not going to exist for me these are like five of my seven favorite filmmakers no it is not recency bias it's not

but it's personal because the odds it's our relationship to it but you were a teenager when these people were putting movies out and how you relate to film It's not recency bias. It's not, but it's personal bias. Because the odds. It's our relationship to it. But you were a teenager when these people were putting movies out. And how you relate to film and what you want to see. But when I was a teenager, what I did, and this is what I did with music too. I was like, fuck all the shit that's out in the theaters.

Like, I'm going to be a snob. Sean was probably like this too. And like, I'm going to watch Fellini and Godard. Because none of these clowns know how to make movies. And then this happens. Go ahead. Let's just hear the names. Quentin Tarantino, Richard Linklater,

Paul Thomas Anderson, David Fincher, Spike Jones, Sofia Coppola, Wes Anderson, Christopher Nolan, Whit Stillman, Anthony Minghella, Ang Lee, Baz Luhrmann, M. Night Shyamalan, Frank Darabont, James Gray, Kelly Reichert David O. Russell we're still going

Noah Baumbach Mike Judge The Wachowskis Kevin Smith Jay Ashonke Gaspar No Fernando Moreles Denis Villeneuve

Brad Bird Sam Mendes who have I forgotten? I mean you forgot mine and I also have a point of order that's also a spoiler

about one of the people on this list can I just add to Kishe Miike? Didn't say Miike, no. Darren Aronofsky. Oh, that's a good one. I forgot too. Spike Jones. I think he did, yeah. Guillermo del Toro. Oh, yes.

Danny Boyle. Also forgot him. Is Danny Boyle in the 90s? Yeah. Shallow Grave. Wait, what did you... I missed that. He added one, but then there's a point of order, which is a bit of a spoiler, which is one of the people that Sean named.

Technically, depending on how we count it, but I'll be counting that person for the 2000s. I see. Okay. And did you say Fincher? Did you say Fincher?

Yeah, he said... Sean says Fincher every day when he wakes up. In his every step, he is saying David Fincher. Robert Rodriguez, you said? No. No. Though though you know

I'm not sure if he stands with some of these folks though I like his movies a lot and then you didn't say Whit Stillman I mean not I did say Whit Stillman

oh you did okay Whit Stillman who is also very influential and is relatedly the Woody Allen thing if you see

Whit Stillman movies before Woody Allen movies you're like oh I didn't realize that he was kind of inhaling something and then exhaling his version of it and no did you put Mangold on there no I same thing like I thought he was he was like right on the outside but I you know his career is very

up and down but he's made some great I'm actually bringing his name up because again just in concert with everyone else yeah it's if he's fucking insane and why team that's pretty crazy i mean guys is there a better decade not to me i think it's it's hard to and i want to talk about why i'm doing this argument but there is just something i do think that we are we are close to it and what our definition of a good film is it's like so dependent on when you see something and how you see something i think that's like one of the major points that i am trying to make when i tease you guys is that i i do we have to like examine what our definition of great is as much as we and and how we're coming to that decision well here's what i like about this time

in movies and here's why this was meaningful for me and probably why i find myself in this conversation with you guys right now if you look at quentin paul thomas anderson fincher just as an example that trio those guys gave me film history quentin's urgency around leonie and exploitation movies and horror and the things that he liked and the way that he talked about them all the time taught me a lot about how to think about movies pta talking about demi all the time in the late 90s made me understand what humanist filmmaking was especially in america fincher if you don't see hitchcock you don't see finchercock, you don't see Fincher. And that makes you go back and watch all of those films. And that's why I think that the generational thing is kind of meaningful.

And what Amanda is saying is somewhat true. It's not just that those guys are so good and they are so good. It's that they are so sophisticated at consuming film history and then making it even better in a way. But that might just be because there had been a lot of film history. That is true.

And that is also a very specific type of film history. Those are three very specific guys and they're all geniuses and I'm not trying to take away from that. But the counter argument to my own argument is that there is PTA Tarantino and Fincher who are very different, but are represent a certain type of filmgoers taste and then you do also have blockbuster filmmakers you have female filmmakers you have action filmmakers there is a um finally some sort of like diversity both of the type of filmmaker and the type of movie in the 90s I think my theory and by the way this goes back

because the 60s we were like wow and I think this had a lot to do way, this goes back because the 60s, we were like, wow. And I think this had a lot to do, this was the callback I wanted to make, which was, it goes a little bit to your film history. The way international cinema sort of infected the taste of all those young filmmakers back then that sort of blossomed this great decade of filmmakers in the same way, the nineties, there was this weird sort of, like you said, film history, but this synthesis of like the past eight decades, now we're going to take all that.

I mean, Tarantino always talks about how he uses it, uses film history, like a DJ. And he's like mixing and matching genres and exploit exploitation films and genre films and, and trying to create a mix of trying to create something original out of a mix of that.

The other thing that I think is really important. Filmmaking got cheaper and I, I don't, and that's the birth of independent cinema. I don't even understand how it didn't happen before, but what, for whatever reason, the film stock went down

or camera rentals were cheaper because there were more cameras out there. I don't know. I'd love for someone to write a book or Sean for you to research that and talk about it in the next podcast. But somehow, people were able to make feature films.

And it really kind of started with Soderbergh, Sex, Lodge, and Videotape. 1989. Which, by the way, won the Palme d'Or and went on to, like, that was unheard of. So, I mean, the key distinction here, I think, I'm not an expert in this, but I do know a lot about it, is distribution. It's not that filmmaking, it's not that there was necessarily even more independent film. There's been independent film since the 30s. There were a lot of independent films in the 70s.

A lot of those movies hit grindhouses and you could see them, but you could only see them on 42nd Street. The difference is that companies like Miramax started and they said, this movie goes into 2,500 theaters and it deserves a wide audience.

And it's Sex, Lies, and Videotape, which is a perverse film, amazing film, but very unlike a lot of movies that were coming out in the 1980s, got a bigger audience. And then that meant his other films got even bigger audiences. So to me, it's actually like a platforming thing where these kinds of filmmakers who

made these kinds of movies, not since 1975, did they get to reach this many people. You're saying this is when they figured out, or at least somebody figured out, hey, why aren't we monetizing cheap films? We can make a lot more money. And there's these talented young people out there. And then five years later, all the corporations get excited about that and they start buying up these companies and then they start slowly diluting the brand.

And then you get the next decade, which is a little bit tougher and you don't have as many great films because you don't have this like rebel spirit that is pervasive in the late sixties and the seventies and is pervasive in the 90s because it's it's all economics and i do think this doesn't happen without spielberg this decade i do think and i don't mean spielberg specifically the 80s in general the rebel thing you're talking about this was a rebellion to blockbuster this was a rebellion to star Wars and Jaws and all the indies and that stuff was good but a lot of stuff was that sort of like um you know jerry bruckheimer version of hollywood that people felt was like distasteful

well it pulled those movies i mean i think they i think at least to these young filmmakers are coming up in the 90s those films pulled punches and i i remember feeling that it pulled but like it was it was like close to like okay we're we're going to go there, and then they don't. And then they pick the safe route. They pick the less alienating route or whatever. The mainstream route. The mainstream route. And then it gave free reign to these filmmakers to say, you know what?

We're going to go there. And we're not going to just go there. We're going to jump all over it. There was that director who, you know, because we didn't name like Hal Hartley or, or, what is he? Doom Generation?

Help me out here. Gregor Racky. Yes. I love Gregor Racky. Yeah. But the most fucked up movies was Ferrara? I guess Ferrara.

Ava Ferrara, yeah, you can put him on the list. Yeah. Same thing, it was probably 70s. He came out of the 70s, the exploitation stuff

that we're talking about. Amanda, what do you, a lot of your favorite filmmakers are on that list yes from the 90s what do you think is sort of most meaningful about this time because sam sees it as artistic expression me with my bad brain i'm like it's all about the business like what is it for you i think it's both of those combined i it it's what i said already which is just like you get different types of movies and i think that even in the list that you read there are it's just a wider range of type of theater going experiences and whether you value an action movie or whether you value you know saying i'm yeah no please read me i was like i'm about to just give you like a please yes that, I don't know you that well.

No, go for it. Either filmmaking and visual expression. No, I think, but you have an emphasis on like, you would just really want to see some wild, crazy visual shit. Okay. Do you disagree with that? No, I actually do not like, like, and we could probably reference some movies.

Like, I don't necessarily like overly stylized, like, you know, that movie Mandy that came out? Like, I, did you see that movie? No.

You would probably, would Amanda, would it be fair to say Amanda would not like that movie? You would hate it. Yeah. That's why I, I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that.

It's a Nicolas Cage movie directed by Panos Cosmatos. I remember that. Yeah. Who was the son of the guy who directed Tombstone, by the way. I don't mean that in a dismissive way at all, but I think that you really understand film as the visual medium that it is. I mean, Woody Allen, who, you know, is not a— It's not a bad thing.

No, no, no, no. Let's make beautiful things. I'm not— Like, I support you. I'm not a defensive person. Keep shining. It's okay. I'm just saying like.

Anyway, there's that option for you. Okay, go ahead. And there are dramas and there are sort of, there are comedies. Of course there are in the 90s. Absolutely. Are you kidding? That's true. We didn't drop Tom Chadiak on this list.

No. Was he 90s? Yeah, I think he was. Or the Farrelly brothers? Pre-Green Book? Yeah, that's true. That actually is a good... I mean, who released more purely entertaining movies than the Farrelly's in the 90s?

I mean, they had a perfect track record in the 90s. Groundhog Day was a flop, but one of the best movies ever made. I had Ramis in the 80s. And it does also just feel like the 90s were when the movies were... We had so much mass pop culture but the movies were still at the center of mass pop culture which i don't really think that you could say certainly of today

it kind of ends with the matrix the matrix is sort of and we talked endlessly about 99 yeah and how big 99 was and what a meaningful year that was for movies and how it also signaled that kind of like this new century movies may not be at the center of culture as we go forward and you know you're here making television shows it's the same thing and it's like you know everything about this stuff you know all these filmmakers you've seen all of their films but you've been working on tv that's right and we'll get and we're gonna get to that we're gonna get to what happened why that all changed but i just admire the fuck out of this decade and i agree with you like there is a tendon there is There is a temptation to have recency bias. Or not recency bias.

That's not the right way to say it. But to have an emotional association with it. Because we were whatever in college or in our 20s. Or we were teenagers when those movies came out. But I really do think. This decade was the reason why I came up with this game. Because when I saw the amount of— You're going to be so mad at me.

Let's do this. You're so mad at me. I still haven't even made my pick. The fact that you pick names that I would have never thought of or agreed with and I'm very angry with you about is why I love this. I know. This is great. Sam, what's your pick? It's Quentin, but that's lazy., what's your pick? It's Quentin,

but that's lazy. But he's an amazing, it's Quentin. I think it's the objective right answer. I didn't do it because I made responsible choices earlier and now I'm having fun, but I think.

I hate that answer. It's not very creative, but it also just feels like if you go any other direction, you made a mistake. Not that I hate him, obviously, by the way. Obviously, master, you know,

but holy shit. I think it's also... How do I not pick PTA? Well, this... You're going to pick PTA. Only because you picked Quentin. If you had picked PTA... Oh, you're a coward.

Don't be a coward. You can't do that. What was written down? Well, Quentin has made my most favorite movies. You know, I... It's not a secret to anybody listening to this show.

But so is PTA. No? You know, we're talking about the narrowest of margins. The narrowest of margins. I do think also Tarantino is the right answer for like this podcast and the three of us to an extent, which is about that, that like nerdy, deep, detailed homage and like voracious appetite for all the movies. And it's, it's it is a good summary which is a perfect entree into your pick so instead I'm so excited

I picked Nancy Meyers was she even on the list? do you want a vision? do you want a specific cinematic idea that has had influence across genres and industries? yes Sam I do I am not mad I am not mad.

I am not mad that you picked Nancy Meyers. But how do you, I mean, Woody Allen. I mean, there's a direct fucking line. I said to you that I, like, I understand that Woody Allen has influenced and shaped like a lot of the things

that I most respond to. But it is a real, you come late to it. I just also, she makes movies about women. I don't want to make this a whole gender essentialist thing. And I like great art can transcend that. But I like, also I'm superficial as fuck.

And like, show me that kitchen. Show me the beautiful, that to me is like, whatever, like a David Lynch thing is to you. I'm just like, let's keep going.

So let me, can I ask you a question? So when Nancy comes out with the movie, are you there on opening night? Yes. I mean, I'm there. I'm email like, let's keep going. So let me, can I ask you a question? So when Nancy comes out with the movie, are you there on opening night? Yes. I mean, I'm emailing people

for the screenings like four months in advance. I'm like, what do I have to do? I was there on opening night for her daughter's movie. That's how I'm committed. It's called Home Again.

It starred Reese Witherspoon, another person who is important to me. Terrible film. You know what? That is a beautiful home. Someone told me that it is Ben Affleck and Jennifer Garner's former home, so it really encapsulates all of my interests. If you want to do a production design category, that is a sub for-

That's right. Nancy Meyers has made a lot of good movies. She has. I think she's actually really good. Yeah, I mean- She's tremendous. I do too, but it's Woody Allen. It's very heavily influenced by Woody Allen.

I think that she is very heavily influenced by Woody Allen, but that's okay. That's okay. If you don't like me doing things that are influenced by other people in these later categories, then you're on a real ride for the next two decades, just so you know. Look, I'm named Quentin Tarantino who couldn't be more influenced by other filmmakers. I just, it was a weird thing. It was a weird pick. This is an expression of, it's not a weird pick. I love it. It's not a weird thing it was a weird pick this is an expression it's out of i love it it's not a no no i'm saying it's a weird pick given given you're just dame of all time

no one picked link later i actively didn't pick link later oh you don't like link later it's not for me wow i know he's a tremendous filmmaker and i get uncomfortable the before sunset thing and i'm not aware of this i it's what just talks so much oh my god you are a podcast host i'm aware that's wait i'm not saying make a feature film about me i i i think he's he's pretty close to the top of the list of not in that power trio of tarantino pta and fincher for me oh i mean what i mean what we're we're not saying a lot of people here, guys. I mean, Wes Anderson. I'm girding myself to prepare for four months of Wes Anderson conversation. I didn't pick Nora Ephron, which is...

Nora Ephron? Why not pick Nora Ephron? But that's fine. You like Nancy more than Nora. Is that true? No, I was trying to think in terms of like a body of work and a person who represents like a specific visual and cinematic ideal. Like I think Nancy is the really big name.

Nora is, it's, Nora is such a writer. And even those movies, they're, they're written as much as they're filmed. And I think they're tremendous performances. Also, like you've got Mail Over Sleepless in Seattle any day of the week. I still feel really bad that I abandoned that on the Tom Hanks Hall of Fame. But I do. Nancy is a better filmmaker. Yeah.

It's a more complete experience. I would agree with that. Even though Kimora Ephron has, like, shaped my brain. Yeah. I like that argument. I appreciate that support. This is unpopular because Amanda doesn't care about these movies. I have no idea if you care at all.

But I think that there's a strong case for Brad Bird, who also. What did he do in the 90s? I didn't even. Iron Giant starts working at Pixar. Oh, we're going to go down to animation. Well, you don't have to. Amanda is not speaking very admirably. I'm, by the way, Amanda's camp on this one.

Yeah. Sorry. Shame on you once more. No. No, look, let me just say say I love me some Toy Story. I've watched all three of them, I think or four of them. There are four now. Yes, I saw all four. I really loved

the first three and I really liked four. I love Up and WALL-E. We were just talking about that. We were because you were talking about the score. It's the same thing with TV Inside Out is

is very beautiful Inside Out Christian Slater and I the truth story we were he we were flying

this was after the first season we were flying to some festival and he was like sitting down the aisle like where he could see over my shoulder and I started watching

Inside Out and you know I got to the sad part oh yeah and I was like, ugh. And I look over, and he's, Christian's crying. He's just crying. Looking over, watching the movie.

He had seen it before, but he remembered the moment. Oh, that's very nice. See how powerful animation is? Yeah, I think it can be, but. I have a barrier with animation. It's the same thing with TV. I just, I like it, and I'm in, but. I also have a barrier and

on that spider verse podcast i really tried to explain that it's just at at some point i don't know how to watch it in the same way same with action movies there really is you respond to to visual images as much as you respond to writing or performances or lighting or whatever and it's just not the visual thing that i respond to as much, which you can accept when I'm saying that about animation, but not about any of your favorite things. I am accepting. I am nothing but accepting. Let's go to the 2000s.

But wait, are we going to like Denis Villeneuve, who made a feature in the 90s, then kind of disappeared for a while, and now is like on the most incredible run. Oh, you don't like Denis Villeneuve no I do like Denis Villeneuve the problem is

is he did exactly what you just said which is he has his gap he's just the 2000s filmmaker actually the movies that he makes

he might be the most 2000s filmmaker that we have and so it's just weird to kind of lump him into that conversation about 90s people because his film

I've never seen that film that he made in 1999 I didn't either and that's not really when he, he actually emerges in 2010. With Encendies. Encendies, yes. And so it's kind of weird to be like lumping him in with PTA and all these other people.

I know, but I will say, I think in the past 10 years, Denis is like probably my favorite. So he would have been the winner of the 2000s for me if he had just made that movie six months later did you did you say Alfonso

did you have Alfonso no yeah he's 90 he's 90s as well he's 90s as well this is what I'm talking about guys this fucking decade

I forgot about Alfonso I forgot about Alfonso and Guillermo which is no bueno on my part um okay you want to move on? I think we need to.

Okay, fine. What hour mark are we? Who knows? Like an hour and a half. That's okay. Okay, here we go. The 2000s. Jonathan Glazer.

I love Jonathan Glazer. Rian Johnson. Great. Judd Apatow. Todd Phillips. A pitch-a-pong virisithical. Todd Phillips is 90s my friend

No? I don't think so Okay I don't think so Road Trip? Road Trip 2000? Okay Go ahead

Jon Favreau Miranda July JJ Abrams Sarah Pauly Ben Affleck Tony Gilroy Taika Waititi Barry Jenkins

Charlie Kaufman Steve McQueen Martin McDonough Damien Chazelle Carrie Joji Fukunaga Asif Kapadia Asghar Farhadi Sean Baker

Deborah Granik personal favorite Edgar Wright and Bong Joon-ho um did you say Michelle Gondry no

interesting he's really fallen out of my mind as a because once upon a time no you're right he was in that cohort uh Safdie Brothers Did you say Michel Gondry? No. He's really fallen out of my mind. Because Once Upon a Time was in that cohort. Safdie Brothers? I guess they are in the 2000s. I guess they are.

2009. Huh. They're going to be mad at me. I don't know what to do about that. Amanda has a big grin on her face. Who did I forget? And she's staring at Sean. I am using a technicality to win, which is that, so yeah, so the Virgin Suicides debuted at Cannes in 1999, but it was released commercially in 2000. So I shall be claiming Sofia Coppola for the 2000s.

No, you cannot. Yes, I can. No, no, no. Yes, I can. No, no, no. We said at the beginning of the podcast, commercial release. Yes, we did. Cannes Film Festival is a commercial release.

No, it's not. You can buy a ticket. You can buy. I've been to Cannes. Okay. You have to buy a ticket to get into the theater. That is the latest. And I'm a woman of the people as previously established on this podcast.

You'll have to talk about your second favorite then. Because Sophia was up there for me in the 90s. How was she up there for you? I mean, she was very cool in the 90s. No, no, no. I mean, not on my list the 90s she was how was she up there for you i mean she was very cool in the 90s i also no no no i mean not on my list for 90s filmmakers okay you cannot pick sophia i think that you are two men telling me what the rules are in a way that's unfair we've already established the game and came to the show why don't you pick is she would you if she's in the 90s which she is it's does does nancy meyer still stand it's like the 90s, which she is, does Nancy Meyers still stand?

It's like the two halves of my personality. So I think that you have to let me do this. You have to let me express myself. Also, can I just say as another point of order, the Ringer did a whole 1999 movies package last year, and we deem Virgin Suicide's ineligible. But if you go on IMDb, it is 1999, right? Yeah, but IMDb is run by people in their basements.

You can't trust IMDb for anything. I think it's run by a trillion dollar corporation. I know, well, they redesigned whatchamacallit, and so now Box Office Mojo, that's them. This is appropriate. It's like being born on a leap year day. You know, it's like, Sophia just exists in her own plane of existence.

Sure. She's operating outside of the constraints of this game. And she persists proudly. She's really important to me. And I can't believe that you guys are trying to take her away from me. If you're really going to do this. I can't tell you how much I love Sophia. Then I got to rethink my odds.

By the way, can we just talk about the decade for a second? Yeah, definitely. What happened here? I don't know. There's some people that's that's another reason just let me have sofia so we can have someone good to talk about i think what you see though on this list is very interesting because it is basically the current modern vanguard if you look at barry steve mcqueen chazelle tyka brian johnson sa Safdies these are the people that we

when we're on this show every week we're like I can't wait for this person's next movie and so that's meaningful and Glazer's got a movie coming out this year

I can't wait but Glazer's not talked about a lot because he only made three movies I know but they're all fucking great all of them he also is

how do you feel about Glazer? I feel the same way that every time you ask me about this person who like makes a austere beautiful movie like every other decade which is like it's not that i don't love it i just don't spend a lot of time thinking about it which is like honestly maybe a failure on my part no nothing amanda no it's not a failure i mean he's a difficult person to evaluate he is well. He's made a lot of commercials and music videos. They're all brilliant.

Yes. He has probably maybe the single strongest visual sense of any of his contemporaries, which is profound. I wish the scripts for some of his films were better. Because I think sometimes if he had stronger scripts, he'd be closer to Kubrick. Sexy Beast is pretty great script Birth not a great script

and Under the Skin I think is 75% of a great script but an overwhelmingly well made movie I love Under the Skin but it is low on entertainment value

yeah it's I'm just trying to have fun at the movies I feel you so am I it's a tricky it's a tricky

time the Sofia Coppola thing did not fuck with your list or your pick she's in like the top 7

in the 90s to me that was how I viewed her no but now that Amanda is cheating and moving her in the odds cheating I'm using

the rules I've known that Amanda is a cheat and a liar for a long time to my advantage and she'll do anything she can to win and to elevate this conversation

and world cinema so you're welcome the reason this was a good idea to come onto this show to elevate this conversation and world cinema. So you're welcome. The reason this was a good idea to come onto this show to do this is that there is a complex and devious air of competition between us. And we're always like having to pick things and who gets the most things right and who does right. Right, right, right. So she won't, she's not going to give this up. She's not going to, okay. She's like, I decided it is the way that it is.

Amanda, also worth noting, is an only child. Yes, I am. That matters. You have siblings, right? I do. I do. I have siblings. And Amanda does not.

So we know how to share. Okay. I'm sharing my love of Sofia Coppola with both of you and everyone listening to this podcast. I mean, my pick was going to be Bong. Me too. But, fuck. You would have taken Sofia if I was you. What's your favorite Sophia?

I mean, I love Marie Antoinette. As do I. I mean, to me, that's like one of those experiences where I'm like, okay, I've never seen that. Yep. Mm-hmm. Same. And, like, and also, for me, it's also a little bit of like, huh, I never realized that I look at the world that way. And I mean, Sophia has like a very singular vision and I will never, and taste, and I will never meet it. But that sense of recognizing your worldview or how you perceive things and also it looking fucking dope.

Yeah. Because it does. That's my girl. All right. Well, I'm going to stick with Bong because I think Amanda's cheating. Okay. That's my official. I'm a visionary, you know.

My official. It's not easy here and you're gonna go with bong i am okay i mean i i very seriously might have gone with him even if parasite had never happened i like his other movies i did too i did too so you know that was part of what was your close second glazer was my number two runner up and i just think that the ryan john Johnson train continues to love right continues to I mean his his filmography now looks more and more

impressive as the days go by so and I one suspects he's actually gonna keep getting better and gonna get more opportunities to do it every once so you know he's up there in conversation any conversation around Ben Affleck you know what I rewatched the last 45 minutes of the town last night.

That's a good movie. Which in many, what I caught is just like a Michael Mann ripoff, but great movie. Really good. You know that it's a Michael Mann ripoff.

I listen to you guys. I don't always like it, but I listen. Wait, so what is your close number two in the odds, Amanda, which is actually the real answer? Bong is really up there for me. Since Sophia doesn't count. Sophia's a odds, Amanda, which is actually the real answer? Bong is really up there for me.

Since Sophia doesn't count. Sophia, a couple of counts. So Bong is the real answer? I think Bong is pretty formidable. I'm surprised that Sean didn't do Chazelle. Damien, yeah. I was going to say, I think we're underrating Barry and Damien. Yeah.

Well, I would say we're underrating the Safdies. Probably. Given good time and uncut gems i mean i just think to me if i were a betting man that would be the career i i mean i mean bong has obviously already done it but i think they're gonna have the next 10 years is gonna be fucking i crazy good in many ways worship the stuff that they make i mean the uncut gems is still the one of the most pure expressions of things that i'm interested in that I've ever seen.

It's actually scary to me how close it is. I also think that they just run amazingly hot and it's just who, I have no idea where they're going to go as filmmakers. I have no idea what's going to happen. If someone's like, what you deserve is $75 million to make your movie. Is that going to go? Well,

I don't know. I hope so. I pray to God. I think they're, I don't know. I think they're going to have, if they feel like, cause I think they could have done that after a good time i i'm pretty sure they were gonna they got

offered remakes well they this was their dream whatever they had been dying to make this movie for 10 years yeah i love them they know i trust they are like the crystallization of all of you and your interest in such specific way that i feel real affection for them. Also, I mean, it's just like an excellent movie. Yes. Now to the 2010s. 2010s. Shorter list. Well, this is harder

because we don't have, I mean, they just debuted in the past 10 years, so we don't have a lot to go on, right? In some cases, only a movie or two. So this is harder for that reason, but yes.

I'm sure I've forgotten some people here. So I will let you. And honestly, I took some people off after seeing a couple of their second or third features. Yeah. Which is tough. Right. And that may be unfair.

You know, maybe if we played this game for Martin Scorsese in the 70s, maybe you would have felt like, actually, I didn't like Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Maybe you wouldn't feel as strongly about one of his films. That is true. We have given credit to careers. There's a much shorter leash.

Stewardship as much as we have to. There's probably directors that we're not even going to mention that will make their third or fourth film in the next five years that will change this whole thing. But there's two stone cold, three stone cold obvious picks. They're Jordan Peele, Ryan Coogler, three stone cold obvious picks. They're Jordan Peele, Ryan Coogler, and Greta Gerwig. I think that that's probably the sort of the,

what's thought to be the top of the heap. Here are some others. Mike Flanagan, Drew Goddard, Chad Stahelski, Jennifer Kent, Robert Eggers, Alex Garland, Ari Aster, Bradley Cooper, and Olivia Wilde. And I have D Vince Gilligan. So we hadn't considered that because we don't think of El Camino as a movie, but it is a movie and it did play in movie theaters. Yep.

Yeah. Commercially available. He's another guy, though, who I'm like, I mean, just like with you. Yeah, I know. What he does would be so good for a film. My pick is Greta. It's obviously my pick as well yeah I just

look I don't like period films I don't like period dramas I definitely do not like period costume dramas I know this is everything

you love I do like Sense and Sensibility but that and Ang Lee by the way was up there for me. But I mean, I don't know. He's very hit or miss for me. Me too.

Like little, I felt way, I was excited watching Little Women. Yeah. I was excited. I did not, it was the last batch of screeners and I threw it in and I was like, well, I don't, because it's just like, it's not my thing. It's not my genre. I don't, I don't, I've never gotten into it. Um, even movies that I think are well-crafted and well-made. Um, but holy shit.

She fucking excited the shit. And that, that to me, I mean, I mean, Lady Bird to me is like a flawless, one of the best high school films ever made. If could have surpassed days and confused for me as maybe the best high school film ever made if could have surpassed days and confused for me is maybe the best high school film ever made but um but yeah greta gerwig little women i mean i think she's made two masterpieces i don't know if i can say that about the other anybody else that's interesting i mean we were talking about it earlier this week just about how she also very smartly has just basically has a brand and power now and has the ability to maybe

not do anything she wants but her future just seems so amazingly unpredictable and exciting and that is a part of this game too is like who will get to have the next 20 years where you're just like i just want to see everything well you know the one of the one of the defining the one of the one of the things that in picking picking any of these directors, it's do I want to watch every movie that this person makes from now on? And will I be there on opening night? That's like the follow-up, right? Greta Gerwig has that for me now. Like, in a way that, and then Jordan was like a close second for me.

He's my pick. Yeah. That's a good backup. Yeah. It's not even a backup. That's pick. Yeah. That's a good backup. Yeah. It's not even a backup. That's like a good pick. Like that year between Get Out and Lady Bird, I was like, I don't know what to fucking say. I don't know what to say.

It was a good time. Was your pick Get Out that year? It was my favorite over Lady Bird. But in addition to that and was yours ladybird we both i think both of us stupidly thought it was gonna win best picture yeah hoping for what we got with parasite yes we did like the three days before i don't know i feel something in the air maybe it'll be get out and then we were wrong yeah sticking our finger in the air yeah and so then we didn't do that this year and we were wrong i was happy to be wrong

um do you i mean you have talked at length about gretta on this show is there anything else that Sticking our finger in the air. Yeah. And so then we didn't do that this year and we were wrong. I was happy to be wrong. I mean, you have talked at length about Greta on this show. Is there anything else that Sam didn't say that you want to say about her? No. Sam summarized my reaction to watching a Greta Gerwig film as well. I think that there was just so instantly like a filmmaking personality and universe at work, which can be true of people as well as you know mass ip franchises and it's a great way of describing it and to know that you're in her world and so instantly is requires such a command not just like the script and and casting every element of this is like so

precise even though i think the thing that's amazing about little women in particular is like the energy it's not like a stuffy corseted they're all talking all over each other and running around and there is something so exuberant about it but that you can have such like exuberant precision is something i've never seen before now do you like those stuffy versions of those movies? Some of them, yeah. I think there are good ones and bad ones. I think like A Room With A View is transcendent.

But do you appreciate Little Women more? I'm just curious. I do, yeah, because that- You do appreciate it more. I do feel like that is a genre that I, like, it's comforting for me. You know, some of it is also what you grow up on. Have you seen, and this is a TV show.

Downton Abbey. No, I do not. Okay, well, that's good. I can't do it. And that actually does have some energy. But the 90s Pride and Prejudice, the BBC with Colin Firth and Jennifer Lee. I did not watch that. So that was just something that was on.

And it's like, this is very weird, but it's like's like you know there's like Seinfeld is on and then also I like had those DVDs and I would watch them I've just seen it all the time so I have like a baseline understanding of how those things work and so it's exciting to see that reinvented so you're saying like Pride and Prejudice yeah miniseriesies was to you like They Live or... Yeah. Yeah, I've seen it so many times. I've seen the Joe Wright Pride and Prejudice so many times. The Joe Wright Pride and Prejudice is very good and really underrated. People

don't like it because it's a little too dramatic, but... I'm pro-Rosamund Pike, so I like it. See, that's the thing that I think... You said it best when you... Greta does... Took a genre that i had no interest in and just injected all this it she injected entertainment yeah like she made it entertaining you can appreciate that whether you're a giant fan of the genre like i am or if

you've never because there is this that that essential energy I've just also, like, I haven't seen that many movies with, like, a large group of women, like, physically tumbling over each other and fighting with each other and talking over each other. And it's not a cat fight. And it's not, like, some sort of bridesmaid nightmare. It's just, like, a group, which we get all of the time. Or it's not, like, fucking Charlie's Angels with some girl power shit. It's just, like, rambunctious women with ideas and energy. And that,

like, it's wild that that is so rare on screen and like in films of this level. But she did it. So,

shout out to her. The one thing about Greta that I love is that I don't feel an influence on her. Maybe she's got influences, but

it just feels pretty original to me. I don't know what she on her. Maybe she's got influences, but it just feels pretty original to me. I don't know what... But she, if you talk to her... I'm sure she has her everything. She knows everything. No, no, no, I'm not debating her... She is as much of a nerd about this as all three of us. No, I'm sure she is.

But I think when I watch one of her movies, it feels like I'm discovering something that I have not... Like, I mean, I can draw parallels with the Safdies and Tarantino and Paul Thomas Anderson and Jonathan Demme connection and Altman connection. They're very personal. What is it with Greta? I don't know. I don't know.

The truth is there have just not been a lot of women who have been able to make these movies in the way that they want to. And a lot of female filmmakers who went into Hollywood got squeezed. And she was very defiant, purposefully so, in the making of Lady Bird. And she got to chart her own path. She had the right producer. She basically got the Scott Rudin, Eli Bush ticket, and they let her make her movie. And then likewise, she found Amy Pascal, and Amy Pascal let her make

her movie. Now, she had fights throughout the whole thing, just like every other filmmaker does, but she got more, I think, more leash than somebody 30 years ago in her position would have gotten. I know that for a fact, just because of where our culture is right now. And that's only going to continue to be true. There's only going to be more women that are going to get to make their movies

in the way that they want to. And they were just more constrained than someone even like Martin Scorsese, who we think of as this like bastion of defiance in the face of good taste and fighting for that viscera that you're talking about all the time on this show. I just think it's really more the beginnings of something than it is a truly unique person. She obviously is a singularly

talented person, but we're going to see more of this. I just know it. Like look at the three top picks that we made here. Jordan Peele, Ryan Coogler, and Greta Gerwig. Two African-American filmmakers and a woman. That just wasn't even close to true for any of the previous decades we talked about. So the shit's changing.

Should we talk briefly about Jordan Peele? Well, I chose him for the opposite reason that Sam was describing about Greta, which is that he just makes

the exact kind of movie that I love. I picked John Carpenter earlier. Those are my favorite kinds of movies, really. And I'll watch a really bad version of a movie like that

and kind of enjoy it. And he makes, like, the best version of it. I mean, Get Out is just so incomparable to anything else and so smart. And even Us,

which has kind of gone through the washing machine of takes over the last year. But it's just like, there's nobody, there are no mainstream filmmakers trying to make Us. Right.

He's so by himself. And honestly, Carpenter, and you would know better than me, he was not very successful. I mean, I love him, but his films were not. I mean, the thing is his masterpiece. That was not a hit. That was a flop. That was not a hit.

But these movies that he made were genre films, but they were really smart, and they were really saying something about what the world was going through at the time. And that's exactly what Jordan does. And so it was very close.

And again, the razor thin margin here where I lean towards Greta was, I think it's rare. I mean, again, I'll repeat, a lot of the filmmakers

we've picked, you could see the influences, Nancy Meyers, even Sofia Coppola. But Greta feels unabashedly original. I can't. And maybe it's just because I haven't seen a lot of period dramas. I don't know.

Maybe you can tell me differently. I do honestly think at some point it's a pretty singular brain. I just honestly think that's what it is. And she is a great way of channeling it on screen where you understand it. It's almost like she's inventing something. And relate to it and be like, okay, well, I've never really met a person like this. The Little Women comp that has always made the most sense to me is Pulp Fiction. We've seen plenty of movies like Pulp Fiction before that are just like crime dramas that feature an ensemble cast.

Just like we've seen plenty of movies like Little Women before. We've seen literally Little Women before. We've seen literally Little Women before. But the way that she re-envisioned, sliced and diced, and re-contextualized the meaning of the characters and the choices that they make. Especially the ending.

Yeah. Because people love her and they want to be on her set and they want to be around her. Yeah. That's a huge part of this too is we haven't talked about that aspect of it.

It goes back to the Rob Reiner thing. Those people just liked making those movies. Yeah. Jack Nicholson sitting in the chair for every single take on A Few Good Men and doing the lines with Cruise, even though he could have walked off and gone back to his trailer, is because he likes doing it. And he wants to be on that set with Rob Reiner. It's the same thing with Greta.

Watch the Q&As for that movie. Yeah. The way that her cast fucking worships her. That's all you need to know. That's how you know she probably won't make a bad movie. It's pretty exciting. Sam, how do you feel about Joe rejecting Laurie? Just personally. personally i think no it makes sense okay all right do you not agree with this i mean i know it obviously it makes sense you know it's like a whole long feminist thing

of like obviously she she doesn't need to be with anyone and she should pick herself but then it's also timothy chalamet as laurie so it's like it's stuff but can i say can i can go to the ending because you probably know the book yeah yeah that is not the ending of the book cannot be the ending of the book which sense her with the professor yeah oh yeah that it is sorry no that's the ending of the book yes yes yeah but i remember watching and being like feeling dread is this gonna end with them right and then she fucking mocks it yes and like

and like it's great it's really good she's a genius yeah she's fucking great any guesses on anybody in the 2020s

that we've got six weeks worth of movies so far well you've been the Sundance you two have been the Sundance so you must have

seen some debuts Lee Isaac Chung I was just googling, is that a debut? Lee Isaac Chung made a movie called Minari that's coming out later this year. Oh, yeah. That's the thing that won the Grand Jury Prize. And it's amazing? It's really, really good.

And it's also just like, you know when you sit down and you see somebody and you're like, this person has it. This person has it. And he has it. Okay. What else? I don't think I saw that much. Well, I'm checking out Sonic the Hedgehog soon, so we'll see if jeff fowler's debut feature that's his debut and as far as i know yeah

wow uh okay inauspicious perhaps um i don't know was there anything else premiere wise first time wise well i don't think so it's not that i saw anyway i didn't go to sundance don't look at me okay no i mean most of the films we saw were like, I didn't mention Eliza Hittman in the 2010s, for example. She had a movie there called Never Rarely, Sometimes Always. Oh, yes. How is that? A genius level movie.

I mean, she is really an amazing artist, but she is much more in the lineage of like Kelly Riker. She makes very small, intimate movies, and she's probably going to keep doing so because she's not kind of a quote unquote commercial filmmaker. So how do you evaluate someone like that it's a little challenging we never said oh kelly reichert should be there but like kelly records never made a bad movie she got eight great films it's just that's true you know there's a mainstreamness that i think ultimately this game rewards choosing quentin quentin is despite the insanity of a lot of his films he's a big time

commercial filmmaker but then but then we pick bong and sofia and i don't know if you consider either one of those i mean maybe bong now is mainstream maybe i don't know he's like a social movement at this point well yes 90s we weirdly did go man you went nancy but you can't go more mainstream than n yeah that's true and we went Quentin woman of the people what does that say about us I don't

that's fucked up because the 90s was like the birth of indie I don't are you do you identify as a Gen X person I don't think I could do that okay

you don't I mean I probably am old male then I'm 42 what does that make me that makes you Gen X I think that makes you Gen X.

I'm 77. Very young Gen X. Well, but I think you being resistant to the mainstream and sharing with other people is partially explained by that. And I don't identify as Gen X. And so I'm not as bothered by the fact that we picked some popular things that people have seen. No, what I'm saying is that— You're a poptomist. That has become fraud as well.

I mean, I'm saying like, look, I have loved Back to the Future. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. I'm not against mainstream. I just was, it's weird that like the 90s, which was like the most indie of decades. Right. We went Quentin and you went Nancy. But all those people that arose at that time, they wanted to be. And they wanted to be.

Those were ambitious people from Quentin to Sophia to Fincher. They all wanted to be. They idolized a lot of those 70s filmmakers. And Sophia grew up in the glow of that time. And they aspired to true artistry

with a major audience. Which to me, that is movies ultimately for me. As much as I love David Lynch, what I like is when high art collides with big audience. The weird thing about Lynch,

and you're right, I mean, look, no one sees his movies except us. Yeah, it's us. But you don't even... Like I said, I did what I could

and I'm by no means a scholar that's true but weirdly because I am not I mean Amanda's going to laugh when I say this

but I am not actually that big of a snob like I don't think you're a snob I don't love I don't love Ozu yeah sure I think it's fucking boring

it's slow I need to be entertained I love Lynch because I mean I dare anyone to watch Mulholland Drive and not be entertained by that movie. Even if you don't understand what's going on, it's fucking entertaining. I agree. I mean, there is fucked up shit going on from minute to minute.

But in the same way that I'm very entertained by Little Women, you know? It's not necessarily fucked up shit from minute to minute, but it is exciting and exhilarating from minute to minute, you know? They need that, you know? I think we've drawn honest conclusions about our true selves. I don't know what it said about ourselves. That's the beauty of podcasting is you can put it out in the world and then people will tell you right away what they think. Now that we have done this, how do you guys feel about the game? Was this a worthwhile endeavor?

Yeah, it's a great game. I mean, it's the only thing I ever want to do. Can I ask a question because I feel like we're about the game? Was this a worthwhile endeavor? Yeah, it's a great game. I mean, it's the only thing I ever want to do. Can I ask a question? Because I feel like we're about to end. Yeah. Why don't you ever

be on the interviews with Sean? Just out of curiosity. I think that's just Is that something you would like to do? One of my demands with Sean

Yes. I'm calling it demands because I'm being dramatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that you were going to do this with us. Well, I do think that this is a conversation where we all three want to be heard from equally

is much easier than an interview where there's one person. And I don't like, you actually might have some great insights on this as someone who is interviewed a lot. But I like. I just think you would ask different questions than Sean. Probably. But at the end of the day

like I think interviewers who get in the way are annoying so I like I want to hear from the person so if there are two people that's a journalistic integrity and to be fair

I really do try to stay out of the way in the interviews if I can like the way that I talk on this show when it's Amanda and I is a lot different

than when I talk to a filmmaker because those are like less of like conversations and more of we want to hear from person X. I hear that. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen. And frankly, it probably should happen.

Has Greta been on the show? She has. Yeah. And you interviewed her. I did. I've interviewed her a couple of times on the show. She's. Next time Amanda can interview her.

I would be really nervous. That's the other thing is like I have a real don't meet your hero situation. Ah. So. And yet you let Sam. Yeah. I mean, mean wait a minute i'm sitting right here amanda it's really just greta the list of the list is very short sam s mail man this has been very fun so much this is a blast thank you so much for suggesting this to us i had a great time thanks guys Thanks, guys.