The Big Picture - Is ‘Red One’ the Worst Movie of the Year? Plus: ‘A Real Pain’ With Jesse Eisenberg!

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

Sean is joined by Joanna Robinson to assess why the hell ‘Red One’ is so awful (1:00) and try to make sense of the Rock’s baffling movie career. Then, they discuss ‘A Real Pain,’ Jesse Eisenberg’s new movie about a pair of cousins who go to Poland for a Holocaust tour (25:00). They then each share their top five two-handers in movie history (1:00:00). Finally, Sean is joined by Eisenberg to discuss the film, his evolution as not just an actor but a director, casting and working with Kieran Culkin, and more (1:19:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Joanna Robinson and Jesse Eisenberg Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salek, and I'm here to announce a brand new season of my Ringer original podcast, Bandsplain, the show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists to you and yours. This time, babe, we're going across the pond. That's right, I'm absolutely chuffed to be talking about the music scenes of 80s and 90s Britain. I'm talking Madchester, I'm talking Baggy, I'm talking Shoegaze, I'm talking Britpopmate. So tune in every Thursday starting November 7th for a new episode of Bandsplain on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Jewish cousins and Christmas junk. Later in this episode, Jesse Eisenberg returns to the show after many years to talk about his second film as director.

It's called A Real Pain. It's an Oscar contender and one of my favorite movies of the year. I've always loved Jesse as an actor. Longtime listeners of the show know about my deep and abiding affinity for the social network, Adventureland, The Squid and the Whale, just a few of Jesse's performances. This new movie is really impressive. You know, Jesse's always been incredibly smart and quick-witted. I don't know if I knew he had this in him as a filmmaker. Joanna Robinson is here to talk to me about A Real Pain before we get into my conversation with Jesse and also about Red One, which is a new film. Yeah. Hi, Joanna. How are you? Oh, I'm thrilled beyond belief to talk to you about my favorite film of the year, Red One. Cannot wait. Shall I set the stage on Red One? Please do. This is the new movie from Jake Kasdan, son of Larry Kasdan.

Started out his career writing funny, clever, small comedies like the tv set and zero effect and is now the director of big ten pull franchise films like red one and the jumanji films this movie was written by chris morgan who's probably best known for his contributions to the fast and the furious franchise movies not my favorite franchise as listeners of the show are aware this movie stars Dwayne The Rock Johnson, Chris Evans, and J.K. Simmons as Santa Claus. So, what we have here is a big, noisy, aspiring tentpole movie from Amazon. I want to tell you about how I saw the movie, but Joanna, first, what did you think of Red One? Did you like this movie? I saw it at 10 a.m. at a theater that served me a Bloody Mary at the same time which was

I think setting me up for the most successful version of watching this movie that I could enjoy um I my main question throughout and I'm curious if you have an answer for this is who is this movie for because I think going into something like this like Red One to, you know, we know that it's not for us. So then you, as you know, you have to like judge the movie on, okay, who are we aiming for? And is it a successful movie for those people? And I just find myself confused as to who this movie is aimed at. What do you, what was your experience, Sean? Well, I'm so glad you drank alcohol during your viewing.

I did the same. You know, there's a movie about Santa Claus being kidnapped and a Santa Claus who works in a highly industrialized version of the North Pole, which we can talk about for a bit. You know, I had to go see this movie for work. I wouldn't say this was high on my list of films. There's been a lot of discussion recently on the dwindling cinematic prospects of Dwayne Johnson, a person whose wrestling career is quite meaningful to me and I'm a huge fan from our friends Griffin and David from the Blank Check podcast and Alex Ross-Perry. I'm on a text chain with them. And they said, Sean, did you see

Red One? Griffin had seen it. And he said, I suspect a patented fantasy meltdown is incoming. I hadn't seen it yet. I had made plans to see it by myself after putting my daughter to bed. And for whatever reason, my wife was like, I'd like to go to the movies with you tonight. So we went together. We got a sitter last minute and we went together to go see Red One. We went to an Alamo draft house.

Date night for Red One. We had a date night for Red One. My wife and I haven't been to the movies together. I guess we saw Vertigo over the summer for my birthday. But before that, it had probably been over a year. This was our number one activity together before we had a family. Right. So Eileen wanted to go to Alamo Drafthouse because she has a big relationship to that place. And she said she's never seen a bad movie in an Alamo Drafthouse. Okay. Which I think means that she's gotten drunk during every visit she's had to Alamo Drafthouse.

Because she rattled off some of the names and she saw... 2019 was a big Alamo Drafthouse year for her because her office was next door to the downtown Los Angeles branch. And 2019 was a great movie year. So you could see Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. You could see Uncut Gems.

You could see Ford versus Ferrari. You could see Marriage Story. You could see a number of different films. She saw see Uncut Gems you could see Ford vs. Ferrari you could see Marriage Story you could see a number of different films. She saw a lot of them but she also saw films like Harriet she was like

I thought Harriet was wonderful. She saw Judy she was like I thought Judy was wonderful and it's because she always had at least two Sauvignon Blancs when she was sitting down

and watching a movie but she was like if I go with you to see Red One because I've never seen a bad movie at an Alamo Red One will be good. It will be good, by extension.

Yes. And so we went. Did you drive to the theater, or did you take a ride share knowing you were going to get trashed at the Alamo? We did drive, because I'm not going to get trashed. I will have one drink when I do something like that, but I won't have more than one drink in an Alamo. Okay. But I drove, and we went, and I was pretty mortified, like, within 15 minutes

of what we were watching, but I turned to her, I don't know, 45 minutes in, and she was like, this is pretty good. And she was on drink two, and,

you know, she was wrong in this case. Like, God love her. She's the most important person in the world to me, but I don't know what she was smoking because this movie is terrible. It's really dreadful.

I saw it with a dear friend who I knew was the person to take because she loves the Fast and Furious franchise. She loves any action movie. She loves the entire Rock Ouvra. I was like, this is the person who I have the best chance of enjoying this with. And sure enough, she was like quasi delighted and laughing throughout though at the end when I said, who do you think this is for? She could not answer it for me. So because the question is, is this a movie for kids? No, because it's a PG-13

movie and there's just like swearing, a lot of swearing in it. And I'm not a prude about that sort of thing, but some people are. So I wouldn't call it like a movie for kids. Agreed. But how is this in a movie for adults is my question on the other side of that. I guess it's for 14-year-old boys who believe in Santa Claus. And people like Marvel movies, perhaps, but we like some Marvel movies. We do.

It is mythology coded, though, for sure. It is like, this is IP, even though this is an original story. It is intending to be IP. So I guess it's trying to graft off of that audience and the Fast and the Furious audience and the Jurassicassic world audience you know did i interrupt the meltdown incoming because i don't want to deprive griff of um you know one of the dwindling joys in our lives i mean i don't have a meltdown in me because i'm not sure if this movie is really worth getting my dander up for like it's just it's just bad and it's it's misplayed. You know, like the movie itself is, it's meant to be in a particular tone

and that tone is to be circa 2017 Marvel style, wisecracking guys getting shit done on a mission. And they come from a big apparatus. They live in a big tower, like in the Avengers tower. And somebody's come along and they're going to mess up their plan and they got to fix it. And in this case, you've got two different kinds of guys who are thrown together

and their opposite energies brings them together to form a, this is a Captain American Iron Man. They do things differently, but they got to come together to figure it out. Except Chris Evans, like got the memo. I don't know if we could disagree whether he's good or not in the movie, but he's in a movie that's like, what we are here to do is wisecrack and fight mythological creatures and the rock thinks he's in like gallipoli he thinks he's in like a serious drama about the warfare that has been incurred upon the north pole and he's playing this part so sternly, it's genuinely weird. Because I actually think the fault there is Chris Evans. Because this is the mode he did in Jumanji, but he was bouncing off of Jack Black and Kevin Hart. Which are bringing such antic energy.

And that's not what Chris Evans is doing here. Chris Evans is misthreading the needle between dirtbag and likeability. And in a way that like, I don't think he does either quite successfully, you know, like he can do dirtbag and knives out and he can do likeability and Captain America. And he's trying to do both gear and just completely misses.

I actually think the only, there's two people I think who know what movie they're in. And it's Christopher, Christopher Hayview from Game ofones who plays krampus he's very under a lot of prosthetics i actually think he's genuinely delightful and bonnie hunt who's barely in the movie but i think does know what movie she's in misuse of bonnie hunt bring back bonnie hunt i would like to see more of her but she does know what movie she's in lucy lu might as well not have been there i don't understand why you hire lucy lu to do absolutely nothing in a film so that's that's just where i am i agree i mean

like i agree it's not it's not even so bad it's good in a fun way um it's just confusing and kind of ugly in its special effects and when we're're fighting like three giant snowmen on a beach somewhere, again, I'm just wondering who this movie is while swearing. Who is this movie for? So it makes me sound like I'm a prude about swearing. I'm not. I'm just like, if this is the Santa Claus, a movie that I think you and I are just like a little too old for.

Yes. But if this is the Santa Claus in like when when it came out you and i were just like a little too old but that like that a generation loves the santa claus a crowd pleaser for kids who are five years younger than us yeah they get it like and they love it and i'm like if this were aimed at that audience i would understand it but it's not it's aimed at teens and like it got decent laughs in my theater so maybe it's just we're way far out of the loop of what it is a mainstream audience wants from a christmas movie but like i i just didn't understand it at all there were only two other people in my screening on a sunday afternoon or sunday

evening at the alamo draft house um i don't know i feel like i need to point out a couple of other things about the movie one the the the way that christmas in the north pole is framed is very strange and feels very post marvel post fast and the furious which is that in this world christmas is a corporatized machine that emphasizes efficiency a kind of military structure security we see santa claus weight training for extended period of time in the film. He's a weight a bodybuilder Santa Claus and then rehearsal is critical. So this is like the Secret Service the CIA or maybe like a big corporation like Amazon which is the company that has produced this movie. This is also a movie about the delivery of packages to homes in the most efficient manner

possible how many drones does it take to support santa in his quest well there are elves in this circumstance but in any other case there's a it's very easy to be tremendously skeptical of the the at least like the point of view of what christmas is which is not this it is not the rock crunching bones on screen the bones of ancient mythological demigods it's either religion or if you are godless like me it's a time to be together with people that you care about this movie is none of those things it's not about coca-cola i thought that's what christmas is supposed to be about no but i i take your meaning entirely and i feel like the weightlifting stuff is just so that jk simmons can be like look i got shredded that one time and i've kept it so that's what that's good but i but i did find the

the delivery sequence genuinely like chilly like just really tough that this is this is it's not magic it's not about magic it's not about belief ostensibly the message of this film is that anyone on the naughty list can get off the naughty list and be nice what do you think about that um i mean that's the animating idea of the movie is that not people are not all bad and if they see the light they can become good and we shouldn't cash out on them i i thought about this while i watched it is Is that right? Yes, isn't it? Or does it feel wrong to you in 2024? Are you feeling like redemption and decency are on the menu in the United States of America right now? On this particular week? No, I'm not. It's not the perfect time for me to be receptive to that message. And the idea is that inside every sort of cynical or, I don't know, uh, crime fluent adult, like Chris Evans, there is a small child who was wounded by

something. And if we can just see that small, small child in them, then we can all come together in common cause, which is capitalism. But I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. And I don't understand. Uh, you have this in the notes you didn't say but like chris evans his like speciality uh in among like various other like uh petty crimes is finding people and this is something that a talent he has had since he was a child he declares i can find anything or anyone as a child um that's just a bit of mythology of this character that i don't understand my question to you my biggest question to you is if this makes a ton of money which it's making some money but not a ton of money are we getting red too like is that is that happening

well who would be who would be kidnapped in that storyline? Would it be Mrs. Claus? Would it be Bonnie Hunt? If it means more Bonnie Hunt, not less Bonnie Hunt, I would be in favor. I would welcome more. I mean, the movie made $34 million in the United States. It didn't do that well overseas the weekend prior. I think there

was a bit of a bungling here by not opening this on November 8th when actually the world could have sought some respite from the world's news you know people I think there was some concern that like the election was going to take place over the course of three days in terms of vote counting and that obviously was not the case so there was this big fat window where like Heretic was the only new movie that came out and now this movie is about to lose all the premium screens and a lot of screens because of Wicked and Gladiator 2 and soon Moana 2. And so I think this movie basically was made to be on in the background of teenagers' bedrooms on Christmas Day. And it will be on Prime before December 25th. And that's sort of where it's

destined to live forever. I understand why Bill and Van had the conversation about The Rock's career. And I understand why that's the conversation. I feel like the bigger takeaway from this is, like, what is Chris Evans doing with the constant post-Marvel squandering of Goodwill? Can I give you my very brief Rock thoughts? Yeah, please, please. He already knows that he's screwed this up. And obviously, he's been making The Smashing Machine,

this new movie with Benny Safdie, this year. And, you know, it's Benny's first movie as a solo director. And Josh is also doing a movie as a solo director with Chalamet. And The Rock is starting to rebuild his reputation as an artist, I guess, for lack of a better word, because he knows that he has strayed way too far off into the lands of Hollywood IP mediocrity. Jungle Cruise and the Fast movies and Hobbs and Shaw and Jumanji and everything that he's been doing

for the last 10 years. What's the height of The Rock's artistic career? Is it pain and gain? Like, is that as high as we go? I mean, I'm a fan of that movie. That movie is divisive. I think the rundown

is probably the closest he came to perfecting what he should be up to, which is using his physicality but also using his personality to make a genuinely entertaining kind of like boots-on- on the ground action movie. That movie rules. It's a great movie. So I wish he did more of those. He's done some other good movies over the years. And like I said, I'm genuinely a fan of his. Like, I think he's really smart and funny. I've told

this story before about how there was like a mishap at the Hobbs and Shaw premiere where the power went out in some of the seats and some of the lighting circumstances. So some people had to be evacuated. So he had to get on stage and some of the lighting circumstances. So some people had to be evacuated. So he had to get on stage in like soft shoe for 20 minutes and entertain people before the movie started. And he was fucking amazing. He was so funny and charming for that period of time. So I'm a believer,

but I really feel like he has squandered 10 years at the movies, Moana notwithstanding. And it's disappointing. Chris Evans, you know more about this than I do, but he is another guy who not only is he talented but exhibited great taste. I mean,

he's in Snowpiercer, he's in Knives Out, he's been in some really good movies, Sunshine, like really good films made by auteurs while also doing

the Marvel thing and doing it well. His Steve Rogers is great. What happened? I think his mistake is, because I think Knives Out and Snowpiercer are excellent examples of what he can do outside of Marvel. And I think his mistake is making Marvel-esque movies outside of the Marvel machine.

And that just not working for him or making the impact. And so then it doesn't feel like those movies exist at all. And so then his CV starts to feel empty, like completely devoid of post-marvel choices because what he's making is so forgettable so i think he should i think he's trying to swing in familiar territory and i think he should continue to sort of you know try something farther afield because i think he's quite capable in those other options you know what i mean what did you think of him in Deadpool and Wolverine? Did you like that? Yeah, but I mean, it was brief and it was fun. Did you not like it?

No, I did. I did. Yeah. I did. I mean, it's an example of like what you just described, but actually in a Marvel movie as opposed to,

you know, Ghosted where he's kind of affecting a Marvel persona in just a regular old crime movie. Right. And Ghosted feels like it doesn't exist. It does.

100%. Same for Pain Hustlers, which I didn't hate, but it's just like, is there any consciousness about that movie whatsoever, even though it stars him and Emily Blunt? Right. Exactly. It's a shame.

I mean, the other question to ask here is, do people even want Christmas movies from big studios anymore? Because when we were growing up, obviously, you know, you've got your Miracle on 34th Streets and It's a wonderful life. So there's this long history of Hollywood's relationship to, you know, White Christmas and Holiday Inn

and all these films that when you're growing up, they're on AMC. Yeah. And then in the 90s, there's the boom. There's a sort of post-Home Alone boom of films.

And you've got a Miracle on 34th Street remake and you've got Arnold Schwarzenegger getting in the mix with the jingle All the Ways. Christmas movies were like stock and trade for Hollywood for a long time. Love Actually, yes.

Elf. I'm glad you brought up Love Actually and Elf because Love Actually and Elf, both movies that came out in 2003, feel like the last two movies that are really in like a kind of Hollywood Christmas canon.

I would say The Holiday sort of eked in. I hate that movie, I'm sorry. Yeah, but people love that movie and watch it every year. Yeah, I'm not i'm not a nancy myers hater but i really think that movie is a failure just that's just me i think that movie is a 50 of success the same way i feel about julia and julia there's like half a good movie in there okay that's what so what half of of it's kate winslet and jack black it just charm. I like that they go to the video store. That's all I can really remember.

It's about the art of cinema. Sort of. It's about honoring the meet cute and film composers. Who is it? Eli Wallach? Yes. Yeah, that part is good. Yeah, you're right.

That part is good. I like that part too. That part's great. A couple of other Christmas movies in the last 10 years that didn't totally get there. The night before the Seth Rogen movie, which is okay. I had such high hopes for that. Yeah, it's okay. Best Man Holiday, which I like, but didn't really.

It's a sequel to a movie. Happiest Season, did you like that? The Kristen Stewart movie? No, and I really, really wanted to. I really, really wanted to. I liked it, but it didn't really. It was like a streaming movie, and now it doesn't really feel like it exists either. It does have its fans.

What it did is it made Aubrey Plaza a gay icon, which has served her very well since. It did do that. How was Agatha? I know you finished that. Wonderful. Was it? Yeah, truly great. I actually think you would like it. I genuinely do. What did you like better, Agatha or The Penguin?

And you've watched neither? I've started both. I think you would prefer The Penguin. Because I'm a bro? No, because I think what it's swinging for is closer to your of like the craft and both the vampire slayer and stuff like that, which is, I think, a little less in your particular lane. But I think they both. I'm sorry to bring House of R over here, though you did ask, but I do think that those are two of the most successful IP swings on television we've had in recent years. And it feels like people were so burnt out on all the misses that came before it that they maybe didn't give them the chance they deserved. I was a little disappointed by Dune Prophecy, I must tell you.

Yeah, I mean, we'll see. Early days. I don't know how much of it you've watched. Just the first episode. Just the first episode. We'll see. I'm going to give the penguin a fair shake. Agatha.

We'll see. Yeah. Maybe if Eileen gets interested, you know, the other thing that happened with Christmas movies is that, um, Netflix and Hallmark make like 14 of them to 18 of them a year. And so there's just a lot of content that is available and disposable.

We don't, maybe we don't need a cannon anymore. There used to be, I mean, when we were growing up, um, there would be like an occasional um santa based film on like lifetime television or hallmark or something like that and i used to

love those like i just like really loved those um and then when it became the holiday rom-com which is like what hallmark started and netflix has eagerly latched onto, you know, or then you have like Kurt Russell playing Santa Claus for Netflix and Goldie Hans involved, or you have the film that I am not making it up called hot frosty currently on Netflix with Lacey Chabert and where she falls in love with a snowman question mark. Sure.

Yeah, definitely. So it might it might just be that that this the specialness of the chris's movie has lost all meaning but to your point it's so interesting that like when we were growing up you mentioned all these movies uh it's a wonderful life um miracle on 34th street etc etc uh white christmas holiday inn we were watching like decades old movies and they were just rerun on network uh once a year and we and we loved them and it felt special and the market's just flooded in a way that it doesn't feel any kind of special anymore it's true i mean there were there were some more recent vintage obviously a christmas story is a legendary example

but i feel like elf is the last movie that really hit that you would watch when you were five and you will have with you forever. That it feels like that particular, like love actually obviously is beloved, but it's a rom-com. And if you're 12, that's probably the first time you can watch it and really get into it. Right. There is a whole storyline in love,

actually with a couple who are stand-ins for sex scenes in films that sort of precluded as a child-friendly film. Right. Did you happen to see any of the takeaways from Richard Curtis being awarded an honorary Oscar at the governor's ball yesterday? What did he say? Well, it was more about what Hugh Grant said,

where he viciously annihilated him while presenting him with the award for roughly 15 minutes. Hugh Grant said where he viciously annihilated him while presenting him with the award for roughly 15 minutes. Hugh Grant, this era of Hugh Grant's absolute Rapscallion-ness is one of our greatest gifts, I think, so.

I didn't ask you to see this. Maybe I should have, but you didn't see Heretic, right? I haven't seen it yet. Okay, okay. I haven't had a chance

to talk to anybody about it on the show other than the makers of the film. I thought it was pretty good. First two- thirds, very good. And Hugh Grant is out of this world entertaining in it. I mean, the movie is resting right on his shoulders for an hour and a half and he carries the whole thing. It's very, very entertaining. I really want to, I'm really

excited to see it. Absolutely. And I think that like every single interview he's given around it has been a pure joy, genuinely pure joy because he's just leaning into his longstanding asshole reputation. And now he's just old enough that it's like, he's like, yes. And isn't it charming of me? What an asshole I am. And everyone agrees. It is delightful. Do you think if I get like 10 years older that I'll be able to pull off the same thing?

We'll find out for finally everybody like, oh, I see. He was leaning towards being a septuagenarian asshole. And that's more charming. First, you have to make the podcast version of Paddington 2. Do you think you have that in you? Well, I can certainly try. Yeah, I believe in you. Thank you.

I'll support you in that. Shall we talk about a real pain? Yeah, let's talk about a great movie. This is a great movie. We talked about it a little bit on Friday on the show because you were a little unsure where it stood in the best picture hierarchy, but we didn't really talk about it in any sort of subjective way. Now, I saw this movie at Sundance in January.

Speaking of seeing movies with my wife, this was the one movie that she joined me for at virtual Sundance. And I said, it's Jessie and it's Kieran Culkin. And something tells me this is going to work. Even though I wasn't the biggest fan of Jesse's first feature, I'm not sure if you had a chance to see that movie. Nevertheless, I did watch it and loved it then, raved about it then on the show. Been very excited to talk about it. There's been this long wait for it to come to theaters. It finally came to theaters earlier this month and expanded over the weekend. Been very excited to talk about it. There's been this long wait for it to come to theaters. It finally came to theaters earlier this month and expanded over the weekend. Very quickly, the story follows this pair of cousins, David and Benji, who reunite for a tour

of Poland to honor their late grandmother, who's just passed and was a critical figure in both of their lives. She was a survivor of the Holocaust. And so they go on this tour with a group of other strangers. They visit Lublin, the concentration camp, and they see on this tour with a group of other strangers um they visit lublin the concentration camp and they see the sites and sort of the some of the critical spaces in their grandmother's life to better understand her better understand themselves and it is a reunion of sorts between these cousins who aren't as close as they used to be so jesse plays uh david and benji plays or kieran colquinn is played by benji so you liked this movie I did like this movie I think um I think I was just curious my enjoyment of this movie actually actually I had

a bad time watching the movie because it is intentionally quite agitating and I've had a really good time thinking about this movie it's sort of my relationship can you describe what you mean by that because I I feel I feel similarly made a similar note about this i think so the thing about kieran colkin and jesse eisenberg is that i don't think i think they're two of our most talented performers and i don't think either of them are chameleonic in any way they play two very specific archetypes. I think Jesse is better than Kieran is at playing all the different shades of that archetype. So you can take some of Jesse's more like absolute sweetheart roles and Mark Zuckerberg, and you can see how that's all sort of one archetype along different points of the moral spectrum. Kieran is essentially giving us his succession performance

here. And it's like, and as a long standing Igby, you know, dangerous life, older boys, like long standing Kieran fan. I say that with like all the love in my heart, but I think there's something about the neurotic archetype that Jesse Eisenberg plays, which you and I both respond to. And then the like, ain't I a stinker sort of Kieran Culkin thing that he does with that like air of melancholy that he brings to a lot of those performances. That is intentionally, I think, agitating, right? It's like a real pain. The title pertains to nine different levels of what we're talking about but one of it is just sort of like the experience of being around these personalities as they clash and so i was just like my my shoulders kept like going up to my ears as i

was watching it my frustration with kieran's character um and I think that that but it feels so intentional I think Jesse one of the best scenes you have it sort of grouped as one of the specific scenes to talk about but I just want to like dip into it on the filmmaking side and just say there's a dinner scene where Jesse Eisenberg's character finally sort of tells the group they're traveling with like his true feelings about his cousin who he's sort of just been, like, making some excuses for, sort of shielding throughout. And there's a choice they made in the construction of the scene that Kieran's character is away at the bathroom and you're just worried the whole time that he's going to come back and hear all these things that are being said about him to the truth telling at last from Jesse Eisenberg's character and there's like a slow push in on him as he's talking and it is like one of the most tense experiences I think I've ever had watching a movie so that's that's what I mean is I just felt agitated but then as I think about it as I

think about the empathy we're asked to have for everyone involved and also the like truly emotional nature of this kind of heritage journey that people go on, it's really growing on me as something that I think I'll be thinking about for a really long time. Does that make sense? It does. Does that make sense? unsafe and uncalming a way as possible, how sometimes these relationships can be really challenging. And especially if you've got someone like Benji, who's unafraid to explore the outer edges of someone's comfort. And that's something that his character does, where Kieran Culkin, as you say, brings this energy to everything he does.

The Lonergan plays he's done over the years, those movies that you mentioned, where he's sort of the person who pokes at the open wound. You know, that's something he's very comfortable at. He's very comfortable exploring discomfort. And the David character, Eisenberg's character, is trying to do something that he feels is very sensitive and very personal and very emotional in taking this journey.

And also in theory, reconnecting or rebuilding with Benji. And it becomes clear very quickly that Benji is sort of incapable of a proper rebuild, you know, that he's not suited to the thing that David wants. And he also can't understand David's life, which is, it's over-communicated how normie David is, you know, that he's a father and that he is a husband and that he owns a home and lives in the suburbs. And he has a, you know, a job that is a career, but it's really a way, a means to pay, you know. He sells banners on websites, which is the most ridiculous job. And Jesse explained why that's the job and how this idea

came to him when we talked. But this friction between these two people who are immeasurably close, who've experienced something, who share blood, is a fascinating thing to me. I just thought it really, really worked. And it's unusual to see the cousins dynamic. You know, we see a lot of brothers, we see a lot of best friends, we see a lot of husbands and wives. And I was thinking about the mode that this movie is in, which is a familiar but kind of ancient Hollywood mode. It's like, it's Billy Wilder, it's Hal Ashby, it's Woody Allen. The tonality, the really sad dramedy is hard to pull off and exceedingly rare in Hollywood right now. And so I thought it was just a very deft portrait

of these two complicated guys. And the other thing is that David is like, it's very clear to know David because he gets that big centerpiece that you were talking about at that dinner sequence where he just kind of lays it all out. Like you can't, nothing is withheld in that moment. We never really totally get to the bottom

of whatever it is with Benji. Like, he has moments where he shares his pain or his confusion around certain things, but there's something else that is unexplored, I think mostly because we're seeing the movie through David's eyes and not through Benji's eyes. So that's like a very distinct choice that is made that I think

is really good that leaves us kind of unresolved and thinking more about the movie, because we're sort of like, what was it about these two guys what is their relationship ultimately yeah i mean there's there are some hints about sort of the reason they were so close because um you know one came from a more functional strain of this family than the other so there's some hints about that i would also say i saw it with a friend of mine who had zero patience for Kieran's character. And that's not really how I felt. But when she was just sort of like, what was going on?

I don't understand. I was like, well, he's unmedicated. Like, he's unmedicated, you know? And it's just like, and he's someone who's not interested in being medicated. And that's, you know, whereas Jesse Eisenberg's character is, manages his, like, his anxiety or his this, that, and the other thing via medication. And I'm not here to be an ad one way or another for medication. But I will say that, like, what I do enjoy about this movie and what i enjoy about any of these sort of two-handers of like the free spirit versus the uptight like you know there's a million different versions of that is however irritating karen's character is to me personally the liberation that he allows his

cousin occasionally on this trip when they're breaking in into hotel roofs or doing this that and the other thing there's something just really beautiful and affecting about that but it doesn't end with coming together in common cause it ends in like this continued separation which again sort of picks at you right because we're not we're not resolved in any kind of way on this and the future is uncertain for kieran's character and and is the answer is he going to be okay i i don't think so you know and that's that's what's pretty rare about something like this because when you see people go on this like journey elsewhere, wherever you go,

there you are, but this like journey elsewhere towards understanding yourself. And the fact that Carrie's character ends literally where he begins inside of this film, it's, it's a very satisfactory, unsatisfactory delivery of this idea of just because you have these experiences doesn't mean you can necessarily alter your direction in life if it's said in one way or another i like yeah i

really like how you put that i think the movie shows you him consistently dancing through the raindrops of his own um abandon in his thinking so like the train hopping sequence for example is a moment where like that could go terribly wrong to just get off your train at the wrong time in the wrong city, not speaking the language could be disastrous. But like for me, somebody like me, very type A, very control heavy. Watching a character do that, it makes me panic. And it makes me think if I was in that situation. And the movie is very good at putting you in the shoes of these guys when they're making these choices and feeling what they're doing. I felt a sense of panic when he does that, when they hop off.

And then it works out, as it so often does for charismatic people. Panic and irritation and aggravation that he just let his cousin sleep through the stop you know it's just like so he's removing choice and the inherent hypocrisy and contradiction of this character throughout where he's lecturing their guide played by will sharp i thought will sharp was great and he's very good like lecturing him when they're in the cemetery but also staging a photo op at this like war memorial in a way that makes um you know makes david incredibly uncomfortable and he's just sort of like and the careful dance they do throughout because they're touring with this group uh and you know the group is initially enamored

and then frustrated and sort of goes back and forth with benji, but Benji makes an impression in a way that David never does at all with them. And the dance throughout of David sort of trying to commiserate, I know, isn't he the worst? And then they were like, no, he's great.

And he's like, oh, I thought we all, I thought we all agreed on what was sort of decorum, what was demanded of this, that, or the other thing. And I thought that was really enjoyable as well

but i mean the the reason that i was questioning this place this picture's this film's place in the best picture race had nothing to do with my like individual enjoyment of it but more i can't think of a comp of like a walkie-talkie sundance film that feels like it enters the best picture race as strongly or as high as I thought you had it that was sort of more of my pushback was less like I don't think this is a good film and more does this kind of film land with Academy voters well I think it's I think that conversation is a reflection of this very unusual slate right where we we you know gnashed our teeth for 90 minutes with Katie trying to figure out what the landscape was because it's an odd year.

You know, there often is something from Sundance that tends to emerge that I think taps at something deeply emotional. Like, The Code of Wind is very much about that. It's a smaller movie. It's a movie about family. It's a movie that is much more sentimental than A Real Pain is. A Real Pain is kind of the opposite of that. It's like a very raw, direct channeling of pain and anxiety. But, you know, Little Miss Sunshine is a movie that this reminded me of a little bit. You know, that's a much bigger cast and ensemble. And there's more sort of like Hollywood history inside that movie. But it's not so far afield.

And that was a frontrunner almost. Yeah, but I feel like you're... This is the argument you and I went back and forth on the coda here but like you're just you're meant to feel good and uplifted when you come out of those movies and this is meant to discomfort you like you know and it's and again i feel like it's intentionally done and i think jesse eisenberg did a great job with that but i just can't imagine someone saying let's sit down and watch a real pain together it's gonna feel great to do so whereas with little miss sunshine and i guess the point that katie was

making as well which is the the pr tour that those casks didn't make i mean the little miss little miss sunshine i saw the morning after his premiere at sundance the whole cast was there steve carell was like giving people in the audience hugs it was like this you know that cast can be you know ambassadors for their film by all reports I don't know uh if I mean my understanding is that Kieran and Jesse did not have the smoothest time making this movie together so I don't know in terms of like a joint academy run not that's the only thing to talk about when it comes to this film, obviously. I just wanted to, like,

delineate my personal enjoyment versus, like, where it stands in the best picture. I think it's all relevant to this conversation. You know, obviously,

one, Jesse shared this fascinating thing in the reporting that I asked him about on the show, which is that he had never seen Kieran perform before he cast him

in the movie, which I just still find bewildering, even after hearing him talk about this. So he'd never watched Succession. He'd never seen any films he was in. He'd only auditioned with him once.

And he cast him off of that. Maybe he identified something about his energy. Nevertheless, that's strange. Two, Kieran Culkin tried to pull out of the movie, and he had to be convinced by his ex-girlfriend, Emma Stone, who was a producer on the movie, to do the movie. Obviously, Emma and Jesse

are longtime friends and they've appeared in the Zombieland movies. So, that's fascinating that Kieran wouldn't want to do this. It's been quite a year

for pulling out of movies with Joaquin Phoenix's hijinks in the Todd Haynes film. I'm glad he did it. He's obviously perfect for Benji and Jesse's instincts

were right. I don't think whether or not they had a good time making the movie really matters. Like frankly, most people don't have a good time making movies together. Um,

I don't know if they're going to want to hang out during the press tour, but I mean, it only matters in the case of like, let's go out as, as ambassadors for the movie together. I know, but it like Karen now coming off of this incredible run with succession, people are very comfortable with him at award shows.

And he's really a frontrunner for supporting actor. He is in a way that like, for some reason I'm not thrilled about. And I think the only reason I'm not thrilled about it is it really does not feel very distinct from Roman Roy. Yeah, it's Kieran doing Kieran things as opposed to transformation. And we just gave him an Emmy for that. So I was just like, it feels a little, but I don't have a strong counter case other than let's give Denzel a third Oscar because he deserves it. Well, let's talk about it because we're in this tricky spot where not everyone has seen a lot of the movies that are competing for the awards. You've seen some of the people who are competing for a supporting actor, but not all of them. But just to get a sense of the landscape, it is a pretty cool race this year because it's a good mix of old hands and new voices.

You could make the case that even though the movie kind of hangs on Culkin's charisma, that it's not the most interesting performance out of the top 10 people who are competing for this award for the exact reason that you said. I do think Denzel in Gladiator 2 is very much in the conversation. I think he's the best part of that movie. We'll talk about that movie with Mal and Chris on Friday.

I think, unlike Culkin, and unlike my expectations, he's not just doing Denzel things. This is kind of a new version of Denzel that I can't recall having seen before honestly and so that made it really fun okay I'm seeing it tomorrow so I'm excited to have a more informed I wish you well um and likewise with with the Brutalist I Guy Pearce that's gonna end up being one of my favorite performances of the year and I think similarly the movie turns on what he is able to show us and not show us through the course of that movie and he's you know it's a character that we follow through time as well just like adrian brody's character and has this like enormous amount of psychological underpinning that drives some of the narrative and also guy pierces another person who like it's weird that he has not been honored

before because he even in lousy movies he's often great so that's my favorite for me if i were academy voter which i'm not but as a as like a voter in an awards body the thing that i always am considering is isn't it weird this person doesn't have this award or doesn't their body of work tell us that they deserve this word that's why i'm usually not high on like a the brand newest thing should get the award when like there's someone like Guy Pearce who has turned in. Not that Kieran, obviously Kieran's not the brand newest thing. I'm thinking about other people. I do it very well versus Guy Pearce, who is a chameleon and has done a million different modes for decades in Hollywood. I would much rather see a statue in his hands, personally.

I think out of those three, I think that would be the most satisfying thing for me because I remember very vividly going to see L.A. Confidential in the movie theater, absolutely loving that movie, having no idea who Guy Pearce was and thinking to myself, I guess that's like Jimmy Stewart. I guess that's just going to be someone who's at the center of movies for the next 25 years. And in a way, he has been, but in a much more supporting fashion because he's just clearly a little weirder as a performer. Yeah. The first thing I saw him in was in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, which he's doing something so different. He's so good in that. So then to see L.A. Confidential and then to see, you know, Memento and like all the other stuff. And you're just sort of like, wow, this guy is so many things, so many cards he can play. So, yeah. Isn't it weird that Guy Pearce doesn't have an Oscar? yes give him an oscar i liked what you were saying before too about like the new flavor the new thing i was at the alamo yesterday watching red one and one of the previews

was for um love hurts are you familiar with this new movie coming love hurts so this is a new movie starring kiwi kwan and ariana dubose and produced by 87 north which is is David Leitch's production company, the people that brought you The Fall Guy. And it's an action thriller comedy about, I guess, like some sort of secret operative who's been living a normal life and gets pulled back into the game. A Kiwi Kwan, you know,

last seen in everything, everywhere, all at once, is in it and kind of taking advantage of his martial arts training. Loki season two erasure, but yes. Okay. Sorry. Apologies. And you were like, oh, these are two Oscar winners two Oscar winners yes I was like this movie is being sold on the fact that Kiwi Kwan and

Ariana DuBose are Academy Award winners and that's so strange yeah like it's just it's not then there's nothing against them they're both great in their own way I've kind of especially after Wish and my daughter's love for Wish I've turned on Ariana DeBose I'm like actually maybe she is good you know maybe her she is good her theater girl energy is fine you know and I'm okay with it um but there are so many actors in Hollywood who don't have Oscars and those two do and they're selling the movie on that the back of that but then when I look at like the next band of potential contenders and supporting actor it's like Yura Borisov and Anora and Clarence Macklin and Sing Sing. Two people that you've probably

never seen before in a movie that give good performances. I would love for them to be nominated. I don't want them to win, but I loved both of those performances so much. I did too. Clarence Macklin, if they find a way to thread the needle on Sing Sing, I wouldn't be stunned to see him move into

the frontrunners because people love that performance. I love that performance. I thought he was amazing. Obviously, he's putting a lot of his real life into that movie too. That's one of those, like it has such a strong narrative around it. You know, we've seen similar wins in that category around that. So like, yeah, I just thought Yurovorsov in Anora is just like, I don't know.

That kind of that performance really makes that movie for me in many ways. It's just like and it's an iconic. I know you said in the previous episode we did with Katie that you don't care about category fraud. But let's be clear. Kieran Culkin is like clear category fraud. He is a lead for sure. What Yura Borisov is doing in and Clarence Macklin iskin is like clear category fraud in supporting. He is elite, for sure. What Yura Borisov is doing in

and Clarence Macklin is a little bit of category fraud because he's like the co-leader of that movie, but like what Yura Borisov is doing in Nora, that is an iconic supporting role done perfectly. I totally agree with you and I think Sean Baker like masterfully edits the movie

where there are so many cutaways to just Yura Borisov's expression just him admiring Enora fascinated by Enora it sets up the final act of the movie so well I don't want to spoil the movie but anyway I did knowing we were having this conversation I did a just like

a just a pure Igor rewatch of Enora and I was just like I was stunned by all the cutaways to and I was just like I was stunned by all the cutaways to him. I was like Sean did him such a favor I mean his performance is great but then Sean did him

such a favor with that edit. He totally sets him up so well. Yeah. Okay so the other people who are contending here like I'll just do a brief rundown. You've got Stanley Tucci

in Conclave which I think is a good performance but is maybe missing one big scene that would have helped him along the way. For the real. John Magaro and Peter Sarsgaard in September 5.

Frankly, John Magaro is the lead and Peter Sarsgaard is supporting, but they're running both in supporting apparently. John Turturro in The Room Next Door. A lot of the betting markets have this. I'm not sure if I really understood this. He basically has one scene in the movie and it's an okay scene.

It's a bit overwritten, to be honest with you. Have you seen this yet? Yeah, I wouldn't. I am also confused why this is a strong contender did you see the apprentice i did what do you think of jeremy strong speaking of our succession boys i mean jeremy strong like if one of the actors from succession is going to get nominated, shouldn't it be Jeremy strong, who is never the same in any single role that he plays. It's true. And it's incredible in this like kind of entertaining yet also deeply

unpleasant to watch in its own sense, uh, film, you know, like Jeremy strong for whatever you might say about any given New Yorker profile is, I think one of the most talented performers that exists and I would easily put him in any actor race for sure yeah I'd like to see

him get in there I don't know if that's going to be possible you know a couple of other names Adam Pearson from A Different Man another movie I haven't really had a chance to talk about too much aside from having Sebastian Stan on the show but that I liked quite a bit Ray Fisher was the big surprise of the piano lesson for me. Have you seen that yet? Yeah, yeah. I think his, you know, I did not realize Cyborg had that in his bag, so to speak.

Ray is due another sort of crack at it all, you know? I think he will get one after this movie. And then Josh O'Connor and Jonathan Bailey in Challengers and Wicked. We didn't mention Challengers at all on Friday and people were mad, Joanna. People were upset and I would like to formally apologize. And can we make our apologies? I mean, Josh O'Connor, again, slight category fraud, but like Josh O'Connor is Challengers. I love Mike Faison. I love Zendaya, but like Josh O'Connor is, is challengers. I love Mike Feist and I love Zendaya,

but like Josh O'Connor is challengers. And so like, even if it doesn't get into the best picture conversation, which it should, and we apologize for omitting it, but like Josh O'Connor, I would be thrilled to see him in that. And what do you think of the news that he's going to be in Steven

Spielberg's upcoming UFO movie? Absolutely fantastic. Thrilled for Josh O'Connor. I think that's great. He's incredible in Challengers. He's the best part of the movie. Yeah. And I'm not so wicked pilled that I would say that I think Johnny Bailey has a good shot.

I don't think that's happening. That doesn't seem plausible. He's fine in the movie. He's great. He's exactly what the movie. He's great. Yeah. He's exactly what he needs to be. But, you know. I haven't seen

A Complete Unknown or The Fire Inside. But you've got two actors here who have competed in this category. One of which has won before. You've got Edward Norton who is playing Pete Seeger

in what looks to be, you know, a transformation showy kind of performance about a historical figure which often plays with the Academy. Yeah. And tyree henry who was recently nominated for the jennifer lawrence film that is called what i could not tell you it's incredibly tough it used to be called red white

and blue and they changed the title and i literally cannot think of the title that's how much it doesn't exist nevertheless he was nominated and he's a great actor. He is. Also an Emmy-nominated actor. I can't say where those stand at the moment. The one I would like to see is Bill Skarsgård from Nosferatu.

That's exciting. Wouldn't it be nice if they honored something like that? You know, like a real monster performance? We don't, they never do that.

So you're saying not Chris Raheju in Red One as Krampus? Again, star of the show. He wasn't bad. I think he was great. He fought that witch, right? Yeah.

I think he owned the movie every single second he was on screen. What did you think of the slapping game that they played in that film? I think it was called Schlapp. Schlapp? And I think we should... Do you think HR would allow us to do it at the uh at the next holiday party this year yeah uh i don't i don't think so would you you would play that game with me with you yes because i'm very evidently very weak no i think i don't think

you're as vicious as some of the other people we work with could possibly be like mallory competitive i would not play with mallory i wouldn't play with mallory either no um i wouldn't play a slapping game as a manager here at spotify in the ringer that's just not something i would participate in how high minded of you who will win best supporting actor in your opinion i'm worried it's kieran and uh i'm gonna try you know you know i don't know if you experience this the same way but like I have years where like someone's inevitably going to win a category and I just tell myself don't worry about it just let it happen

and you can care about this category next year but I already did that last year with Downey because I did not think Downey should win last year so I don't want to just like put supporting actor in a box two years in a row so I would say I really want to see like put supporting actor in a box two years in a row. So I would say I, I,

I really want to see how gladiator two does. I really could see a third statue for Denzel. So can you, how many of the seven actors who have won at least three Academy Awards? Can you name? Uh, just by actors. Do you mean men or men and women?

Yeah. Yeah. Performers. Yeah, performers. Wow. Seven have done it. I'm just going to disappoint everyone. I mean, Catherine Hepburn. I'm putting you on the spot,

but it's a good trivia question. It's Catherine Hepburn. Catherine Hepburn is number one. She has four. She is the only actor with four Academy Awards. That's also a really hard trivia question is can you name the four performances?

That's really tough. For Catherine Hepburn? Mm-hmm. I mean, On Golden Pond is one. That's also a really hard trivia question is can you name the four performances? That's really tough. For Katharine Hepburn? Mm-hmm. I mean, On Golden Pond is one. That's one. That's her last one. No, because I think it's like not even the right ones. Didn't she win for Pat or something like that?

It's not ones you would want her to win for. She won three in the second half of her career. She won On Golden Pond, The Lion in Winter, and Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Right, right. Lion in Winter is very good. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, that performance is fine. And then the first one is Morning Glory in 1933.

Yeah, that's okay. That's a tough one. As the bright new thing. Yes. That was her entree, and then she was boxed off as poison. That was her Brie Larson moment, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Katherine Hepburn is one. Who else can you name? Oh my God, I can't. Entree and then she was boxed off as poison. That was her Brie Larson moment. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So, Katherine Hepburn is one. Who else can you name? Oh, my God. I can't. Sean, this is horrible. Think of the icons of the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. I'm blanking. Can you give me this?

Who's the most celebrated actress of your lifetime? Oh, Meryl. God. Meryl Streep is one. How embarrassing. Okay. Who's the most celebrated actor of your lifetime? There are two answers to this question.

Because Hanks is only one, too. Hanks is only one, too. There's one American movie star and one English, Irish-English movie star. Oh, Daniel Day-Lewis. Daniel Day-Lewis. An American movie star and actor who's the most celebrated of my lifetime who has won three Oscars. A singular movie star. there's no one like him Sean Penn is not

one three he's not no I believe Sean Penn has two he has two yeah um

can you give me one more hint hmm I really hope Katie Rich is not listening to this she's so mad at me two leads

and one supporting he's won an Academy Award, one in the 70s, one in the 80s, and one in the 90s. Oh. De Niro? Mm-mm.

No. No. He only has two. Who is it, Sean? Jack Nicholson. Jack Nicholson. Okay, so we've got Katherine Hepburn,

Meryl Streep, Jack Nicholson, Daniel Day-Lewis. There are three others. You want me to give them to you? Yeah, please. Well, one we've got Katherine Hepburn, Meryl Streep, Jack Nicholson, Daniel Day-Lewis. There are three others. You want me to give them to you? Yeah, please. Well, one of them is Walter Brennan,

who was crushing, and he won in off years 36, 38, and 40. Then there's Frances McDormand, of course. Of course. Who won in 17 and 20. Would she have won

if there were not a pandemic in 2020? Interesting question for us. That is an interesting question for Oscar scholars for years to come. Was that a bubble Oscar? Big question. Just like the Lakers and the Dodgers had bubble titles. There are certain people who won that year that I never want to put an asterisk on their win.

So I can't put an asterisk on any win. I'm a huge fan of hers. So it's nothing critical about her. And then the last is Ingrid Bergman, who, great. Who also has two leads and one supporting for Gaslight Anastasia and Murder on the Orient Express. Also, the last one's a little iffy, in my opinion. The one that I... Oh, yeah, absolutely.

But the one that I would... If we were to bump Fran down to two, Nomadland is not the one I would take from her. It would be Three Billboards. See, I'm like the... I'm a Three Billboards hater for life. I know, I'm on an island with that one where I just felt like I understood what he was trying to do and it went into the take

cycle and got all confused. My whole thing is like, listen to the lyrics of Streets of Laredo, the song that plays at the beginning of that movie, and then think about what that song is about and what the movie is about. I encourage people who think that that movie is like some coded weird like white power thing to reconsider. I don't think that at all. I don't think that at movie is like some coded weird like white power thing to reconsider.

I don't think that at all. I don't think that at all. And McDonough is like one of my favorite storytellers that exists. I just like do not like that movie. Okay, fair enough. But not because I think of the take cycle. Let's call Fran. Fran, you're a fraud.

You don't deserve two of your three Oscars. What do you say to Joanna? Okay, that was a fun game. That sounds like the scariest phone call of all time if we were to call Fran up and tell her she doesn't deserve one of her Oscars. Did I tell you my Frances McDormand story? Do you know this? Uh, please.

So in 2010, shortly before I came to work at Grantland, I was writing an oral history of Michael Bay for GQ. And I interviewed like whatever, 50, 60 people that were across Bay's life and career. And at the time he was working on Transformers 4,

I think. And Frances McDormand is in that film. And so I requested an interview with her. She very rarely does press. She said, I won't sit for an interview, but I'll write you a letter about what I like about Michael Bay. And she wrote me a letter and it was sent to me at GQ and we included parts of the letter in the piece and then ran it in full online. And it was very funny. Clearly written in her voice.

And, you know, she described him as like, you know, a rapscallion and a real bastard and a lot of fun and, you know, real in Fran voice. It was a great experience. I was very happy to have it. Fran, like Hugh Grant, has earned being exactly who she wants to be. My favorite recent Fran story is she lived, because they live up in Marin County a lot of the time, which is where I'm from. And so when she did a a q a after like a woman talking uh screening because she was

because i produced her on that film um she she's like i invited all my friends she lives in this like very small coastal town in morgan county she's like i invited a bunch of my friends where are they and they didn't answer and she got like visibly upset and then they were just sort of like they wooed from the back of the room and she's like oh there they are and then she was like ready to go and i found that just like very charming that she's like where are my local friends my local weirdos from the weird little coastal town that i live in and i just i really like that about her marin county home of george lucas david fincher joel cohen and francis mcdormand and joanna robinson what a sainted place wow peter coyote also used to live

there love him too yeah Yeah, big fan. Incredible. Should we talk about who you think Kieran's going to win? That's your takeaway. Right now? What do you think?

It seems like what everyone you know when you go on the various like your gold derbies or your varieties whoever is like sort of checking in

on the horse race and they'll put like a thumbnail up of whoever the front runner is in that category right now. It's curing across the board, seems like. It's so strange. I always get annoyed by these things when we just settle on them.

You know, I whinged about this with Judy and that win. And I just thought that that was so strange that we'd all just decided that Renee Zellweger should win again in a movie that's like not good and her performance is good. But she'd already won. You know what I talked about this. And I don't, you know, I'm like, why is Scarlett Johansson not competing in this category? I couldn't figure that out.

And that was a narrative that coalesced at Telluride. It did. So early in the process. Where no one liked it. So I don't even understand why that, nobody came out there and was like, that movie's good. It felt like, we're sorry we were mean to you about some plastic surgery you got and we would like to apologize

and welcome you back into the fold. That's what that movie felt like. But nobody who actually cares about movies had turned on Renee Zellweger. She's wonderful. No, exactly.

So my mission for us, like one year, Sean, is for us to start a rumor at Telluride that that just like coalesces into an oscar win that would require you coming to telluride joanna i heard everyone is saying that x is happening you know what i mean so i think we could do it i think i could don't you believe in the power of the whisper campaign from ringer hq yeah but i need you there with me to do

it like i need help we can go. We can go to separate sides of town and spread the word. You know, with all of our powerful networking sources. You're more connected than I am with this shit. You should definitely do it. After everyone listens

and hears me bombing on Oscar trivia, I don't know what kind of pull I'll have in this community anymore. You didn't bomb at all. That's okay. I like to just put my co-hosts

in a difficult position when it comes to trivia. It makes me seem smarter, even though I'm not. I think you would have gotten Jack at least. Yeah. Okay. So A Real Pain is a real proper two-hander. Well, I have a question about that. Yeah.

What is a proper two-hander? It's a movie where there are two leads. Okay. And those leads to me. Despite the strong supporting cast around them. Yes. There can... Unless there is a...

So here's one delineation that I want to cite. Yeah. If there is a supporting performance that is overwhelmingly memorable and powerful, it oddly disrupts this...

What I imagine to be a proper two-hander. Now, you can make the case that some of the classics do have those things. I'm more willing to overlook them if I feel like the central performances are so great. You know, most movies are actually built around two people, but when I hear two-hander, I don't think romance or rom-com. I think a movie about friends or family members or enemies, thrown together like you said the live wire you know the anxious straight guy and then the kind of crazy charismatic person on the side

so to me that's like my definition of it reasonable people can disagree you could say bringing a baby is a two-hander if you want to but i don't i don't see i see that as a different sub-genre of. It's interesting because, so when you sort of posited that we might talk about these things before I saw your like no romance rule, the first thing that comes to me is like the before the four trilogy is the clearest day to hander, but that's a movie in which there are barely any other characters.

And then a real pain on the other hand you and I both really enjoyed the supporting cast around our two leads we didn't even mention Jennifer Grey who's also wonderful and a real pain great um yeah uh okay great I'm happy to talk about these I'm ready I don't think we need to do the like massive like five then five then five why don't you just give me your five and i'll give my five um was there anything on my list that you would have wanted yes two of them but i just decided we shouldn't do overlap that's just something i decided it's not a rule i just did it um okay so number five for me swiss army man i really love that film i've watched it a bunch and i think that that is as clear as day at two-hander.

Did I know this when we were talking about everything everywhere all at once for six months? Maybe I did. I don't know. That's great. I like Swarmy Man too. I really love that movie. It's funny. They're not on my list, but when I was thinking about A Real Pain and what worked and what didn't,

I was thinking a lot about Everything is Ill and I went back and like rewatched it a little bit of it to remind myself whether or not that would count as a two-hander. It might. And Roger Dodger, which is Jesse Eisenberg's first feature film, which is also a classic two-hander.

Love, love, love that movie. Yeah, me too. And it's sort of like you mash those two together and you get a real pain. Number four, Bush the sundance kid gotta be i mean uh number three i'm putting like a franchise in here cheating it's classic mallory rubin smuggle uh the road to series of movies that bob hope and bing crosby made uh in the 30s and 40s. What would you say is the best of that series? The Road to Morocco is the best one. But like,

if you are looking for a film that you can watch in 2024 without feeling anything is problematic, you should not look at these films at all. But if you were looking at some of the best comedic chemistry you've ever seen in your life, Bob Hope and Bing Crosby, I prefer it to Laurel and Hardy or Abbott and Costello or Martin and Lewis.

There's something so chatty and quick-witted about Hope and Crosby in these movies that I absolutely love. Banshees of Anishinaabemishiran. Would you count this as a two hander? I would. Yeah. I think that there's a little bit more time spent with

Colin Farrell's character. Now you've also got two incredible supporting performances in that movie. With Barry and Carrie.

Yes. Yeah. So do they trump. And Jenny the donkey. And Jenny of course.

R.I.P. The prevailing meme from that film is, well, there goes that dream from Barry. And that scene between him and Carrie Condon on the river, which is just an absolute hammer shot. Just a great, great moment. But I'll allow it.

And you're trying to restore your appreciation for McDonough here after blaspheming three billboards. I think Banshees of minnesheeran is the movie i've thought about the most in the last several years i think about that movie all the time do you have a friend like that yeah uh yes uh in in like someone who was like cut you out of their lives are you the so you're you're the feral i'm the feral yeah absolutely interesting and that's part where he's like you know or were you never nice you know that part killer powerful um some some some of the real pain in that exactly dynamic yeah that like that like drift apart things things end um and they matter because they end uh and then number one i i stole

this from your honorable mentions but it is genuinely my number one which is with nail and i and with nail and i i in terms of this antic character um played by richard e grant um and then your more solid character played by paul mcgann like that that dynamic this is the best version of that for me he our our sort of stoic character our and i character is not nearly as neurotic as what jesse eisenberg is giving but he is uptight and is in need of exposure to someone as chaotic and dangerous and frustrating as with nail character is. Um,

so I think, I think it's a really good movie to talk in, in conjunction with the real pain. It's also, I think a perfect movie. I love this movie. I think it's wonderful. I love it too.

It's been a long time since I've seen with nail and I, maybe I should go out and get that Arrow release of Blu-ray. That's what I need to go do is go pick that up at my local Blu-ray distribution center, wherever that may be. I think you deserve it. I'll do five quickly. I did have Withnail and I on my honorable mentions. I don't even know. This is not the definitive list of the greatest two handers. These are personal lists. These are movies that we like. Number five for me is The Nice Guys, which I watched on a plane four months ago,

and I was like, this is probably the best movie I've ever made, best movie I've ever seen on a plane in my life. So fucking fun. Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe. Why don't we have

20 of those movies? I don't know. Well, we don't have 20 Shane Blacks. That's the thing. We don't have 20 Shane Blacks at that period of his career, you know,

where Hollywood is still intact enough that you could get a movie like that off the ground. And it might be one of the last movies of that kind. And it didn't do well. It didn't do well, but it is beloved now.

I think, I think it's beloved. It's definitely one of my favorite easy watches. To go back to your sort of Christmas question, the, uh, kiss, kiss,

bang, bang feels like the version that played for people better than this did, but I love this movie. I mean, all of his movies are these kinds of two handers, you know,, Bang feels like the version that played for people better than this did. But I love this movie. I mean, all of his movies are these kinds of two handers, you know, these kind of like mismatched duos going together. Iron Man 3. Speaking of Guy Pearce, right? You know, he's kind of in the negative energy opposite Iron Man. Is he not?

I think it's the kid, Harley. Oh, yeah. What does Guy Pearce's character's name in that movie? Killian. Killian what? Do you remember? I think it's Aldrich Killian. Oh, my God.

You can't screw me over on two trivia questions. My number four is Thelma and Louise. This kind of goes without saying. Speaking of Ridley Scott this week at gladiator two week another movie that has like relevant but maybe not overwhelming supporting performances in Brad Pitt

and Harvey Keitel but a movie that like absolutely centers Louise and Thelma Susan Sarandon and Gina Davis and I think shows like an interesting version of friendship which is like loyalty but tentativeness

and this desire to like stick together no matter what even if like it's never totally clear like how close those two even are in the movie you know like or how formative this experience was yeah making them i think you'll find some people who will argue this belongs in the romance category but i'll support you female friendships are important to see queer codeder-coded Thelma and Louise. Queer-coded. I'm cool with that. I mean, that would be okay. They don't actually kiss, right?

They don't. Number three is Sweet Smell of Success, which is the opposite of Thelma and Louise. It's about two people that fucking hate each other, which is one of my favorite movies of all time.

The poster of this movie hangs over my desk in my office at home. If you want to get to know a little bit about me and how I see the world, you can watch this movie starring Tony Curtis and B office at home. If you want to get to know a little bit about me and how I see the world, you can watch this movie starring Tony Curtis and Burt Lancaster.

That's illuminating. As a press agent, publicist, man about town with low morals, working very hard to please the local gossip columnist slash power broker in New York City. Do you have an affinity for journalism movies? I guess I have a little bit more access to that world

and so I'm more open-minded to them. This I don't really view as a journalism movie. It's actually more honestly represents like the world that I operate in, which is like the world of entertainment and content creation yes content creation thank you for supporting me um because there's no journalism really happening in that movie it's a bunch of people lying to the public about what's real and what's not real you know which is a little bit how things work at least in the world of entertainment there's a lot of messaging involved wouldn't you agree it's a lot of that in the world of quote-unquote journalism as well. And I love journalists and I support the media.

That's one of us. My number two is Paper Moon. Again, just issued in 4K by the Criterion Collection. Thank you for your work. The late, great Peter Bogdanovich's fourth film, I want to say. Starring Ryan O'Neill and Tatum O'Neill as a father and a daughter. A con man takes a little kid on the road, and they do great work together.

Also great supporting performances in that movie. Madeline Kahn in particular jumps out to mind. I like how you really carefully sort of picked different flavors of what a twosome could be. I was thinking about relationships and what different kinds of relationships you might see in these circumstances. Sometimes you have family, sometimes you in these circumstances sometimes you have family sometimes you have friends sometimes you have enemies sometimes you have just a guy you work with and my number one is the lighthouse and sometimes you just work with a guy who's just absolutely infuriating you know that's a movie that also just like it was extremely agitating to watch just extremely agitating. By agitating, do you mean enlightening and humorous?

I watched that. I mean, that film is great and I think about it all the time, but I walked out of it genuinely nauseous. I think it was just all the various fluids that were consumed in that movie. It's deeply disgusting. Absolute banger performance. The one that's missing from my list that I really wanted to put on there but I just wasn't sure I could justify

calling it a two-hander versus an ensemble film as Master and Commander oh with Betty and Crow another film yeah

Betty and Crow it's a big cast though it's a huge cast usually you want these films to have fairly modest cast I hear what you're saying I like that pick though

I had some other honorable mentions yeah collateral yeah you know Cruz and Fox Misery

I feel like that's a two-hander I don't know when Cruz does something do you know what I mean God I hope he starts doing something again don't get me wrong

I'm I am building a shrine to Mission Impossible 8 as we speak no you're you're i know you love when cruz does anything capital b capital a but isn't it better when he does something i don't like it when he does lions for lambs so not anything what about night and day though kind of in on night and day yeah my guy mangled yeah he tried something he tried to do

a zippy two-hander. You know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I, I'm a little concerned about Ina Ritu and Cruz, that being his foray into post-IP Cruz era.

What do you think? I don't know. I'm just, I'm, I don't think I've ever not enjoyed Cruz trying something. What?

Okay, do it quickly for me, even though I'm probably wasting an entire episode. Cruz trying something. What? Okay, do it quickly for me even though I'm probably wasting an entire episode. Cruz trying something power rankings. Is it Magnolia, Eyes Wide Shut,

or Collateral? It's number one, Magnolia. Okay. Without a doubt. I'm with you. Number two, Collateral. I agree. Yo, homie,

is that my briefcase? One of the hardest i've ever laughed in a movie theater are we putting tropic thunder on this list absolutely yeah definitely i think it's i think it's good at number three or four yeah okay that's number four eyes wide shut as i said i mean dr tom that's just a super dr bill dr bill that's just a super weird character that if it didn't look like Tom Cruise if it was like John C. Reilly that would make more sense um what else is in the cruise trying stuff power rankings um oh I wouldn't but Rock of Ages counts but I wouldn't oh it does count I wouldn't

put it on any list award it anything't award it anything. I mean, interview with a vampire. Sure. He really tried some shit on that one. Accents. He went for it. Number five. I love it. Didn't appreciate the last samurai,

but he tried something. So we're negating my every time Tom Cruise tries something, it's great point. I think so. But when we say, wouldn't we prefer he try something than not try something?

Yes. Vanilla Sky is him trying something remember when he's the disfigurement and the mask and all that I mean that's a weird ass movie too

he's just he is the goat people want to act like he's just a guy who jumps off buildings and they don't understand they need to go back into the past

and remember when he played the guy in Vanilla Sky he needs to continue to try things so that people remember what he's capable of in a retu though we'll see joanna thank you so much where can we hear you um house of r yeah where you can hear me most like many hours in the week what are you hitting on

house of r doom prophecy and uh mallory will be taking another bite at the apple and talking about Gladiator 2 with me as well so hopefully she doesn't burn all of her takes with you and Chris we'll burn them like we burn ships in ancient Rome

excellent you can hear her on the Prestige TV feed Rob and I are covering Say Nothing right now which is really really good and I just talked to

Andy Greenwald on the watch and I was like this is the best show I've seen in like 5 years I know know i know anybody who's listening to the show even though i have an anti-tv bias say nothing on hulu is exceptional and the and it got me to read a non-fiction book which is nigh impossible so congratulations patrick rattenkeef one of the one of the best out right now incredible book um and uh and I think we're gonna be covering like maybe agency next and like that I don't know it's a it's a weird little time for prestige tv

and hear me on trial by content where we're watching a million different Denzel movies and I just watched all of the equalizers so that was what was your favorite um I actually really like two oh weird that's my least favorite. Interesting. Is it? Yeah. Three is my favorite, I think. Three is your favorite?

Okay. Going to Italy. I just love to be in Italy. When's the last time you watched Man on Fire? A while ago. You know, it's not really my bag. That's in the CR bill zone. I love Denzel.

I love Tony Scott. I never really got that one, to be honest with you. I don't. It's so rigor core, and I don't enjoy it. It happens. I'm going to say if you're going to pick something, it should be Equalizer over Man on Fire. Oh, that's a bold take. Denzel in that mode.

That's a bold take. Yeah. I met one of the producers of the Equalizer films at Telluride this year. And he had a really good head on his shoulders about those films. He really understood what they are at their essence, and I was like, you guys should just make three or more of these. That'll be great. I had a great time with them.

And then some Melissa Leo's there. You're like, okay, Melissa Leo, get your Equalizer money. I support you. The history of Hollywood is dotted with successful and gifted actors taking on IP stories to pay the rent. There's nothing wrong with it. I got no problem. It's the same reason I got no beef with Marvel movies if they're any good. This is normal. This is what movies are all about. Joanna, you're the greatest. Thank you so much. You're the greatest, Sean. Thanks so much for having me.

Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Jesse Eisenberg. Back on the show after many years, Jesse Eisenberg. Jesse, last time we spoke, you were acting and not directing, and now you're a two-time filmmaker. I was reading about the story and how when you initially began writing A Real Pain, it was not about two cousins who go to Poland. And then it changed pretty significantly. What was the story originally and why did it change? Oh, yeah. Thanks a lot for asking that. Yeah.

The original story was based on kind of like a short story I wrote about these two friends I envied, my friend and my friend envied this guy who had moved to Mongolia. And we were going to visit that the most pure, radical, you know, politically rebellious person who had moved to Mongolia and lived off the grid. When we got to Mongolia, we realized actually that this guy had like sold out to this Norwegian tourism company. And it just breaks down the relationship one at a time. Like, you know, like the Kieran character is destroyed and then I'm destroyed because

Kieran's character is destroyed. And so it's just like this kind of, but we're all stuck on a mountain living in a year. And I just thought it'd be so cool to shoot in Mongolia. And I was like 30 pages in. And I think Kieran's character, the Benji character had just stolen money from my ATM account. And I was realizing this story is not

going to finish. I can't finish this story. I don't know where it's going to go. And I don't know enough about Mongolia. And an ad popped up online for, this was a banner ad online that said Auschwitz tours, and then in parentheses with lunch. And I was like, oh my God. Oh, that's it. And suddenly like everything started to make sense. It would be these two guys, but they would be cousins. And instead of going on this tour to meet a friend, they'd be going to explore where their, you know, ancestors were from. And I could deal with all of their existential angst, all the stuff that I wanted to write about, all of their kind of modern grievances, their self-indulgence, their real pain. But I could deal with it against the backdrop of

World War II and the Holocaust. And suddenly, movie has meaning. Suddenly their lives have grounded rich texture as a story. Well, it's a fascinating choice, and also the choice to make Benji your character's cousin is sort of unique. I couldn't think of very many examples where you have this dynamic where you have the familial closeness, but not the same closeness as a sibling. And there is a difference with a friend where you have a much longer history together. Like why the choice to make the characters cousins? Yeah, exactly. No, it's exactly kind of what you were just describing. And I kind of conceived of this idea that maybe their grandmother had just passed away. And if their grandmother just passed away, then their reason for being can kind of dissolve. You know, like if you're a cousin,

you don't share parents, you share grandparents. And if that link is gone, you kind of can choose, you know, it's not prescribed like, well, you know, she, you know, he's my brother, so I got to be there for him. You know, you can kind of choose. And my character has a family and is married and kind of has moved into his own next stage of life. And it made the tension in the relationship between cousins heightened because there was really the option on the table for them to not exist as a pair anymore, even though they had been tied together at the hip, as Kieran says in the movie. Both of the films that you've directed have protagonists who are searching for a kind of meaning, but also have these weird fits of self-indulgence.

I'm fascinated by that, why you're drawn to that. Oh, thank you for being so sensitive. Thank you for being the only person I've met in the last week who's watched my other movie. And thank you for being the only person I'll ever meet who asked me about it in a public forum. Yeah, right. And that movie, right, the characters are, yes, struggling to be socially and politically conscious, but are ultimately stymied by their own, you know,

deficiencies, you know, and personal deficiencies, as we all are, you know. And the thing that interests me so much is just that it's who I am. Like, I'm really surrounded by people who do good social work. I mean, really, kind of, most people in my life just so happen to be doing really vital social work, including my wife, who's currently teaching a disability justice class that she had conceived of in the New York City public schools. And I'm in the arts, and there's something pretty navel-gazy about being in the arts, especially if you're writing like I do personal projects. And so I just constantly feel this conflict of, is what I'm doing valuable in the world

as compared to the people around me who are doing work that is far more objectively and explicitly socially relevant? Do you feel like the arts can be a public good, though? Do you feel like the work that you're doing can impact people's lives in a meaningful way? I know that's a big, heavy question, but I'm curious where you land having made these movies now. What a nice question. And the answer is 100%. Of course, the arts can be very valuable. In fact, the arts sometimes are the more powerful stories than nonfiction, you know, because we can connect to them on a human emotional level.

The difference is my intent is not that. My intent is I'm kind of writing a story that's buried inside me and I want it to be funny because I like humor and I want it to be emotional because I like that kind of stuff. And my wife's intent is how can I be of service? And my intent is how can I make something that's inside me that speaks to a thing that I'm interested in? And so perhaps my movie will be helpful to people connecting. I am sure there's a thousand ways that it could be. It connects us to the trauma of our ancestors.

It connects us to pain. It connects us to questioning, is our modern pain valid? And all sorts of wonderful, interesting, thoughtful, good questions that we should be asking ourselves. But my intention wasn't exactly that. I know that you're very precise when you're writing and I assume when you're making a film and the movie has this great pace and comic timing and it's also very deep and there's something kind of dark and pained right underneath the surface. But how do you find a way to balance those two things? Is it a mechanical process when you're editing the movie or writing the movie to

know these beats are going to manage? Is it a feel thing where you just know that it's feeling right? How do you determine the best way to execute on that? Oh, thank you so much. So my background is in playwriting. And so I write plays that are incredibly similar in tone and theme to what this movie is and what my previous movie was and um i've been writing for like 20 years and basically um performing them hundreds of times and so i've have this uh probably an instinct from performing live these kind of tones and themes where i can where i just like if i have an instinct i'm not saying it's a good instinct what my, but my instinct is to kind of feel out how you can kind of balance sympathy and transgressiveness and characters that are obnoxious, but also lovable, because that's what I've been kind of

writing for a long time. And by doing it in front of an audience every night, you can kind of have a really direct response as to what's working and where the audience is feeling alienated. And so with Kieran's character in this movie, he plays this kind of mercurial, charming, but also kind of off-putting guy. And I felt like I was able to modulate it in the script and in directing this brilliant actor because I had just gotten used to that kind of style. Benji is such a familiar figure to me, you know, that hugely charismatic, but sort of obnoxious and relentless person. And David feels closer to what I imagine that you are actually a performer and I'm, I'm an extrovert as, as for my job. And so like, I have that feeling I've been like the person who commands a room

in my work, um, in like my private life. Yeah. I'm much similar, more similar to David. I'm shy. Um, and you know, self-questioning rather than kind of questioning others and wondering, others and wondering what's wrong with them. I'm constantly just wondering what I've done to create this situation. And so, yeah, I'm really more like David. But I know the feeling of being Benji just a little bit because I've been in positions where I'm being asked to be the kind of extroverted showman.

One movie that flashed when I was watching this of yours was the end of the tour. You know, like a two-hander, a live wire, and a straight man, and this uneasy tension. I don't know if that movie crossed your mind while you were working on this. You're so savvy, and it only crossed my mind as something to avoid because I realized after I finished writing this movie, I had named my character David, and the character was named David in The End of the Tour that I was playing. I didn't name it after that. I named it after a play I wrote where I played a character named David who goes to Poland. But nonetheless, I was very aware of this thing. And when I saw James Ponsult, the director of the end of the

tour, I told him, I think you might not like some scenes, but I'm not sure which ones. But what I loved about that movie so much, the end of the tour that i tried to employ with this movie was just basically um having the tour be on in the background by really centering it on these guys who you know well at the forefront um and then kind of the background just being metaphorical fodder for what's going on in front we were doing we were doing a scene uh in the end of the tour and um i was interviewing him at the mall of america and we're sitting and and behind us is this roller coaster that's going by and the sound was so awful because we kept hearing the roller coaster over the dialogue and i asked james poncel the brilliant director i said why did you choose to set it here it must be horrible for

sound and he said oh well you know this this tour is like a metaphor for what you're going on the stories you're learning about the midwest you're learning about uh you know, this tour is like a metaphor for what you're going on this tour. You're learning about the Midwest. You're learning about, you know, America. And this is what's more of a metaphor for America than this roller coaster going by at this food court. And so that stayed with me forever. So when I was making this movie, I was thinking, you know, how can we stage these scenes to, again, give the same kind of impact? I really like that.

So I've read and you've been talking about how you'd never seen Kieran perform before, before you cast him. Is that true? Yeah, it's true in a weird way, which is that I didn't remember this story until recently, but we had first met at an audition for Adventureland, a movie that I was already cast in and a movie that he was auditioning for. And he came into the room. Again, I was already in the movies. I was kind of in a comfortable position. And he came into the room and just I was already in the movies. I was like kind of in a comfortable position and he came into the room and just destabilized the whole thing. He actually grabbed at one point, grabbed my nipples and pulled them and twisted them. And it hurt a lot. And the director was saying, Oh, stop, stop, stop. And Kieran, I guess,

didn't hear him. And he was holding onto them. And, and I was so intimidated and dazzled by this guy who was so brazen and also very talented and funny and alive. And so when somebody had mentioned his name to me while I was writing this movie, this guest must have stuck with me that this is that guy. Oh, right. That's what this guy is. Charming, owns the room, even though I'm the one who planned this Polish trip. And even though I'm the one with the job, he still controls me entirely and makes me feel intimidated and charmed and dazzled. And it's so weird. I guess that just stayed with me.

So is that essentially the only performing you've ever seen from him? Is that interaction you had with him at that audition? No, I saw Home Alone. That is really fascinating because so many of us have such a big relationship to him now, obviously from the success of the show that he was on. And so it's just remarkable that you're able to like, believe that he could do it.

Yeah. Well, I'm sure succession will be my favorite thing in the world. I just like have trouble watching things when they're very popular at the moment, just because I don't know, I guess I want to feel like I'm not, I don't know why I'm, cause I'm a small man. I don't know why, but nonetheless, um, I, uh, but so like, uh, so i just hadn't watched it but i obviously know and he does these kenneth lonergan plays and the style is similar to my style so i just knew he'd be great and for a movie like this which is so intimate and so kind of personality driven you know you want somebody who can just be that way you could just kind of live in that world rather than an actor putting on this thing of charming antagonistic man. I want to ask you about your persona if you're open about that.

Because you've had this, you know, I think highly intelligent, somewhat nervous Wunderkind is like the kind of character that you're probably best known for playing. But you, like I thought Fleischman is in Trouble was so interesting because you entered the dad zone and the dad zone is like a critical moment in any actor's life where you're like, oh yeah, that guy's in his 40s he's a father now you know and uh as somebody who was also in the dad zone now like i'm curious do you have a consciousness about like what kind of parts you want to take what how you want to be seen on screen or on stage or wherever you're performing at this stage no i mean i've never felt at all in control of my career or my life in general. So no, I have no

feeling about trying to engineer a persona or something. It's funny that you mentioned like being a dad, like, cause I had gone onto that side. I think I played a dad in another movie, louder than bombs, but I remember the opening scene. Yeah. The opening scene was my child was being born. So it was a very, very, very new dad. No. And then this, they brought the kids out, you know, these like, you know, real people like And then this, they brought the kids out, um, you know, these like, you know, real people like 12 year old, 13 year old kids. And, um, yeah, it was just like a, it was just a brief thing. And I remember just joking with, uh, Lizzie Kaplan, who was in the show. Um, I was like, Oh, cause she had the same thing on masters of sex. She had, they brought her kids out and she's like, Oh, right. I'm a mom. And it was just this kind of weird feeling of,

Oh, I guess if you're going to just keep acting, this is what happens. Like, you know, I guess it would be worse to never have the kids, right? You know, as an actor. But no, I just don't perceive myself. The only, only, only time I ever tried to kind of engineer a perception of me was in the first Now You See Me movie, which is where there was like kind of a blueprint of a character or there was a character, but they told me we're doing some rewriting on it. So they said, what kind of character do I want to play? And I just wanted to play exactly the opposite of me, this kind of perfectly confident, brash, arrogant guy. And I just finished doing the third one last week. And I have to say, these are like my favorite sets I've ever been on because standing in that body all day with my head up and feeling confident

and feeling arrogant and feeling like I'm the best at what I do just makes me feel that way all day. In fact, I don't remember a bad day on a Now You See Me movie, whereas every other movie I've done, I remember feeling, oh, depressed that day or really anxious about that scene and just not on these Now You See Me movies. So that's been great for me, I would say, kind of like psychologically. It's really interesting you mentioned that too, because you would imagine that as a film director, you have to have that Now You See Me style energy. Like you have to have a confidence, you're making choices all day, you're in charge. How much do you want filmmaking to be like a part of your career going forward now? Like, is that the thing you'd like to spend the most time on?

I want to do both. So I just finished Now You See Me and I'm in pre-production for the next movie I'm directing. And I just want to do, I want to stay busy. I mean, how do I put it? I'm driven by, I don't know, Sean. I think I'm like mostly just driven by the fear of not having a job. And so I just try to stay busy doing as many things as possible. And it freaks me out when I have a day off because in my line of work having a day off is like a dangerous thing it's not like because it implies a certain kind of like um uh maybe your passe or something like that you know being in the arts is not a stable thing and even though I've had kind of like nice

successes it doesn't guarantee like any like it truly doesn't guarantee anything and so I just try to stay busy and now that I've had some success as a director with this new movie A Real Pain it was much easier to get my new movie off the ground. And as soon as I start editing that one, I'll write my next thing. But if Now You See Me 4 comes along, I'll go and act in that. I just want to stay busy doing things I like. And if I could be so fortunate to do this for a long time, it will be a win. Just a couple more for you, Jesse.

You also recently said when you're writing something, you assume no one's ever going to see it because your track record is that people haven't seen it. You've written a lot of screenplays. You've written a lot of plays over the years. But A Real Pain is now one of these kinds of movies where you're in the awards race and you have performances that people are excited about. And a lot of people are going to end up seeing this film.

Is that a different feeling for you? Because obviously you've been seen on screen for a long time, but this is somewhat of a different feeling for you? Is that like, does it, because obviously you've been seen on screen for a long time, but this is somewhat of a different proposition. Yeah, when I was in Sundance, like, yeah, there was like a review in Variety and the title of the review was something like Jesse Eisenberg becomes a major filmmaker. And I remember reading that review,

just thinking like, oh, like that, being shocked by it, being shocked by it because I wouldn't have maybe framed it that way or framed myself that way. But my next thought was, oh, great. Maybe they'll let me do the next movie. Maybe they'll let me do another one. And it's kind of that feeling. I don't ever have this feeling of, this is it. I've arrived. It's never that. It's all, can I get the next one made because this one is seen as good. And my last movie wasn't received as well as I had hoped, but I had already had financing. I already have everything set for a real pain because I was

worried it might not be received that way. So I'd already had everything set up, including Kieran, including our locations, including, um, um, you know, uh, financing. And so I knew I would get to make that. Um, so that's how I think about it. I love doing the actual thing so much. I love actually writing something and being on the set and doing it. I love it so much that I just want to get back there. And so public perception or public receipt of my stuff is only valuable to me insofar as it allows me to do it again. I really liked A Real Pain. We end every episode of this show asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you seen anything great recently? Yes, of course. What did I see that was great? I mean, what did I see? I mean, let's say the last thing, last thing I saw that like really kind of shocked

me was this movie by Eliza Hittman, Never Rarely, Sometimes Always. And the reason I say that is because I didn't have any expectations for that movie. I hadn't seen her prior movies. And when I watched that, I just thought, oh, she's nailed it. She's nailed what every single filmmaker wants to do, which is just delve into something in a purely realistic way. Not every filmmaker, obviously, but she did what every person who's trying to make realistic movies wants to do. And it just shocked me. And it just, the first feeling was adoration. And then the second feeling was, God, do I have that in me?

Is there any part of me that can figure out how to do what she did? That was a thing that really, and then it was almost life-changing. I mean, I got in touch with her right away and became friends with her. And now I'm trying to help her get her next movie made because she has trouble getting her movies made, which is a shock.

That's a great recommendation. Jesse, good to see you. Congrats on A Real Pain Man. Thank you so much for having me on again. It's really great to see you. Thank you to Jesse Eisenberg. Thank you to Joanna Robinson. Thanks to Jack Sanders. And thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Later this week on the show, I teased it. It's Gladiator 2 time. Mallory Rubin, Chris Ryan, me, talking Gladiator 2. We'll see you then.