The Big Picture - Janicza Bravo and Brett Gelman Channel Rejection and Anxiety to Make ‘Lemon’ | The Big Picture (Ep. 22)

Episode Date: August 18, 2017

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with Alison Herman about Janicza Bravo’s approach to uncomfortable comedy and her direction of “Juneteenth,” the instant-classic episode of ‘Atlanta’ (1:00). Then Sean sits down with Bravo and her husband/producing partner, Brett Gelman, to discuss the tumultuous five-year process of getting their film ‘Lemon’ into the world (10:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make sure to watch The Ringer's new live reaction show, Talk the Thrones. Each week, Andy Greenwald, the mother of dragons Mallory Rubin, Chris Ryan, and our very own Maester Jason Concepcion are coming to you live after the East Coast airings of Game of Thrones Season 7. That's Talk the Thrones. It'll stream exclusively on Twitter and Periscope right after each episode ends and can be found on The Ringer's Twitter handle, at Ringer. They'll be reacting at the same time as you, contextualizing the events and explaining everything that just unfolded again this show is called talk the thrones and you can stream it live after the east coast airings of game of thrones season 7 on our twitter and periscope at ringer and now here's the big picture the janicks and brett that wrote lemon are not the Janicks and Brett that are sitting here right now. I mean, we were exercising our fear, our anxiety, our worry that we were going to be left behind.

And we're definitely a little further along from that space that we were in six years ago. My name is Sean Fennessy. I'm the editor-in-chief of The Ringer. And here's the big picture. We have a very exciting episode today. I'm joined by two people, Janixa Bravo and Brett Gellman. They are the writing, directing, producing team behind the new movie Lemon, which is an awkward, fascinating, deeply unusual comedy about a failure of a man. But before we get to that conversation, I'm here with the success of a woman, The Ringer's Alison Herman, who writes about television for our website. Alison, welcome.

Thanks for having me. Alison, here's why I asked you here. We're going to talk about a TV episode. And the reason we're going to talk about it is because Janessa Bravo, one of my guests today, directed that episode. It's, I think, within our office, a fairly famous episode of television from 2016. It's called Juneteenth from the show Atlanta. Tell me about Juneteenth. So Juneteenth is, well, what's interesting about it is it is the only episode of the first 10 episode season of Atlanta that is not directed by either Donald Glover or his longtime music video collaborator, Hiro Murai. And a lot of Atlanta episodes kind

of fall under the rubric of a concept episode where something formally experimental or interesting happens in them. But the format of this in particular sees Donald Glover's protagonist, Earn, and his sometime girlfriend, co-parent, partner, person, Van, go to a party at a very rich couple's house and deal with the kind of awkwardnesses and faux pas that happen all around them there. And it's a really fantastic comedy because Atlanta is extremely insightful about race and the comedy that arises from how we deal with that. And the specific awkwardness of the setting is that the woman of the couple is a sort of mentor figure to Van. It's not quite clear what their relationship is,

but it is made clear that it is in Van's interest to show up and look nice at this party and engross herself with this social milieu. And then they show up and they find out that her husband is a white optometrist who paints paintings based on Malcolm X quotes and lectures or like asks Earn where he's from in Africa and tells him that he should really go there sometime. Yeah, it's, and like, the most amazing condescending faux compliment he gives is when Earn says that he's a manager because he manages his cousin, Paperboy the rapper. He's like, oh, that's so great. Black people taking ownership of music.

And Donald Glover has one of the most all-time jiffable reaction faces, which I don't think we really got an opportunity to see before Atlanta because he's mostly the comic performer either as a stand-up or an ensemble member in community. And one of the amazing things about Atlanta is that it allows him to be a reactive straight man. And a lot of this episode is Donald Glover giving the side eye or just the incredulous gaze to someone who was doing something incredibly stupid in front of him. Yeah, the side eye would be a good alternate title for this episode, I think. And, you know, I think what Janixa brings to it that is slightly different than Donald or Hero is a very particular focus on the tension that comes between an awkward

racial encounter or when there's privilege facing non-privilege and how people feel about that. And, you know, it really makes Juneteenth a sister of some kind to Lemon and that movie explores it as well. But, you know, tell me a little bit about how she like frames the show and how she changes that. I think the milieu that you talked about is so different from how where most of Atlanta takes place. Yeah. So it's in a very wealthy household. I think one of the things that makes Juneteenth so funny to talk about is that Donald Glover's character kind of offers a capsule description when he's looking around and is like, this is like a Spike Lee directed reboot of Eyes Wide Shut, which is the perfect long line for the episode. But weirdly, actually, I was rewatching

it and it almost reminds me of Get Out, like using the trappings of white affluence to inspire this feeling of dread and discomfort. Although the feeling of Get Out is obviously much more visceral.

But I think maybe the showiest shot or the best example that I can pull of her visual shorthand is there's a moment where this white optometrist, whose name is Crick,

decides to basically hold his audience hostage and force them to listen while he gives an impromptu slam poem about Jim Crow. And there are lots of, you know, just excellent pans to the audience of all these people pretending to listen politely, but the way she films him is from below in this way where he looks kind of warped and grotesque in a way that you can laugh at, but also understand why it is genuinely unpleasant

to be in the same room as him. And it's something that kind of sticks with you after the episode in a real visceral way, I think. Yeah, she gets a really great performance out of Donald Glover, too, that is slightly different from other episodes in the show. There's a kind of seething frustration happening where he's not afraid to. It's very clear how bad he feels about the experience he's having in this house, right? And how much he has thought about this kind of experience before. Absolutely.

And I also think it's really worth shouting out the performance from ZZ Beats in this episode because I think one of the most impressive things that Atlanta did in its first season vis-a-vis the pilot was really build up her character. And the way Juneteenth ends up being an episode almost about like the compromises of partnership. So Van and Earn have this very unsteady relationship and she's basically like, I need you here so you can play the supportive husband that you know you are not so I can support our daughter. And then there's a fascinating scene on the balcony between Van and Monique, her hostess, where Monique says like, I know this is

completely whack. It's my husband uses black people as a hobby, but I like him, but I love my money. And it's such a great moment of taking the varnish off. But the way you see Van think about where she is in her relationship and how this makes her reconsider where she's at is just so finely considered in a way that doesn't cut back on the comedy, but really, really like amplifies the emotional undercurrent of the show and so I think

Juneteenth is the penultimate episode of the season and the finale is much more of a caper that isolates Ern on his own and it's really low stakes in an interesting way but Juneteenth kind of becomes the emotional climax or referendum of the season. It's the last time you see these characters together. It's kind of becomes the emotional climax or referendum of the season

it's the last time you see these characters together it's kind of the hard home of uh of Atlanta right yeah it's the battle of the black water battle the bastards it's like the the game of thrones uh money shot but I am contractually obligated to make that reference in this podcast that plug yeah but yeah I think it's a really interesting way of using this hilarious, unusual situation to highlight the running tensions in a pre-existing relationship in the show. So Juneteenth is interesting because it's, you know, Janixa applying her point of view on a pre-established world that Donald has created with his writer's room and with his filmmakers. Lemon, though, is really, like I said, kind of related to it. And the tone of the sort of awkward comedy and the high tension that appears inside that comedy is a really interesting thing. And I feel like in TV,

we've seen it evolve over the years. You know, when you and I were just talking before we started, I was thinking of Curb Your Enthusiasm and the way that Larry David would throw people into social situations that make you want to tear your skin off. But I feel like that's changed somewhat over the years. Like, what are some other examples situations that make you want to tear your skin off. But I feel like that's changed someone over the years. Like, what are some other examples of that that you've seen? Yeah, cringe comedy is obviously a hallowed tradition. But also in our conversation before this, I brought up catastrophe in the sense that you get the sense of these people as a couple commiserating together.

And even though they might have their differences, they become partners in crime where they can kind of shoot each other these looks and shepherd each other through these awkward situations. And there's this whole genre of romantic comedies on TV right now. You're the Worst is coming back soon is another excellent example. But the way of pairing these two people who stand out from their environment and sometimes perpetrate the embarrassment but then sometimes can share the embarrassment between them is a really interesting mode of comedy I enjoy on TV right now. So like our colleague, Chris Ryan, always says that he can't watch these shows because he doesn't want to feel bad about social interaction. You know, he's a very sociable man. But like, do you actually enjoy witnessing that? Like, I love Catastrophe. I think you do as well, right? Yeah, I think Atlanta and Catastrophe and those kinds of things balance that out because there is the cringe comedy, as I mentioned before.

But there's also the real warmth of seeing a connection between two people. But I would be lying if I said I could watch these movies or TV episodes without pulling up a different browser tab while this is going on or just maybe like muting it for a couple seconds you know sometimes you just have to like pull back and pull yourself out and make sure you're not identifying too much with these characters there is no true safe haven from awkwardness but allison thank you very much for being here with me today i appreciate it thanks for having me i'm here with Janixa and Brett. Guys, thank you so much for coming in today. Thank you so much for having us.

Guys, I want to start with this. I really loved Lemon. And I feel like whenever I talk to filmmakers, they always say, God, it really, it just like, it took us five years to get this on the screen. And sometimes they're full of shit, but it really did take you guys five years. It legitimately took us five years. Tell me when at first the idea struck and how you guys decided you were going to do this movie. The first draft of the script we wrote about six years ago at South by Southwest.

We were – I was there with my first short film. It's called Eat. It stars Brett and Katherine Waterston. And it was like two or three nights into the festival. And I met these two really awesome women who work at Sundance. I didn't know in this moment that they worked at Sundance. I met them. They love the short.

They asked if I had a feature. I lied and said yes. And then at the end of the night, they gave me a business card. And it was like, we're from Sundance. We're still considering scripts for our summer lab. And I was like, hmm, OK. And I was like, when do you want that by? And they're like, as early as tomorrow. And I was like, when do you want that by? And they were like, as early as tomorrow.

And I was like, what's the most amount of time I have? And they said, whatever the day, it was five days from that moment. So I was like, yeah, great. Like, I just need to revisit it because I haven't revisited it. And then on the walk back to our place, Brett and I were renting this place and I

was like remember those women I met that I was dancing with and I was talking to all night anyways they worked at Sundance and they asked to read the script and he was like what script I was like yeah there isn't one so anyways we should write a movie because I've not it was the first time I'd ever written and it was

a short film it was like 17 pages and I'd never written more than 17 pages so I was like couldn't you a little bit of like a can you like Scotty to my Jordan maybe I'm Pippin you're I don't know we're gonna whatever that is like okay that sort of assist so she already had this idea before South by she already had been talking to me about semblance she's like I want to make a movie about – Panic. Yeah, about panic, about our panic. But then it was also – I'm sort of a – not sort of.

I am a hypochondriac. So I think a lot of it had to do at first with like my character seeing doctors, which we never ended up writing into the script. Yeah, there was a lot of worry. So I lied to these women, and we spent the five days that we were at the festival writing the first draft of Lemon. We sent it off. We felt great about it. It was trash.

It did not get in. But what was amazing is that because of this deadline, this kind of self-imposed deadline that was the result of a lie, we ended up having this script. And so we spent just shy of a year. That was around March working on it. And at the beginning of the year of the beginning of the following year.

So this was like March of 2011 or 12. And the beginning of the following year, Brett actually sent the script to Michael Cera. I didn't think it was ready to send to him, but he did. And Michael read it that day and said yes to doing it that day, which sort of fast tracked us into working on the film. And so we send it to our I had no reps. Brett sent it to his reps and they were like, great, let's make this thing. Well, let me ask you. So when you send it to someone like Michael who's pretty famous, is that why it gets more attention because you can say I'm attaching Michael to Sarah? Or is it more just you guys felt an imperative to give him something?

No, it was like a pipe dream, like little fantasy in the eyes of the reps at the time. They hadn't read it either. Right. Have they not read it yet? No, we hadn't shared the script with anyone. It was pretty much just with us. We were talking about this thing that we were working on, and I think they thought, well, that's not real because it doesn't exist.

And I also should say that I met Michael at that South By on the street, and he saw my short Eat and had in that time sort of written Brett about really liking that piece and wanting to work with me in some capacity. So it wasn't just like we hadn't blindly sent it to Michael. And we'd been writing this part for him. So it was kind of this – it was serendipitous that we were writing this part for him. And then he actually liked the thing that I made. And so Brett sent it to him. He says yes. And then once we had this sort of piece of casting, it was like this person that's of note is saying yes to director who's only made one short film and Brett who had not been a leading man in a feature.

So once we had his yes, it was like, oh, this feels real. And the reps sort of perked up to, they wanted to show up to it. That's interesting. So was it always going to be you, you, Brett in the lead at, and were you guys always going to work on this together, write it together?

Or was there a version of this that somehow goes into a, maybe a more of a studio scenario or something? And you're like, it was always going to be you guys doing this no matter what. Otherwise don't do it. Yeah. Just don't, there's not a studio version of Lemon.

I mean, there is if it's not Lemon. It's something completely different. But I hear so many stories about like, oh, Michael Cera's attached now, and then all of a sudden it's like Chris Pratt starring in Lemon. You know, like the equation changes somehow. But you guys were steadfast. I think we did.

One financier I think did bring up switching the roles. Michael playing that part and then you. Oh, and we said no. And we said no to their money. There was money that we said no to because they didn't want to make the movie in the way that Janixa wanted to make it or

they didn't want me. There was that one person that was like if this was all black I could say yes to it. Wow. Oh, yeah. That lady that was at a studio. Yeah. And I was like, first of could say yes to it. Wow. Oh, yeah. That lady that was at a studio. Yeah, because – And I was like, first of all, you're full of shit. That is uncommon. I was like, you would not say yes to this if it was all black.

I think that her thinking was like your face is black and if this is black, I know how to talk about this or how to sell this. I'm like confused by like your black face, his white face. Like what's the conversation here? I'm out. Interesting. Yeah, I mean black filmmakers get screwed on both sides. They're not given the same trust at all that white filmmakers are given. And then when they are allowed to make things, it's only allowed to be about like three different subjects, which are.

I mean, I think women would argue that I think this goes the same for women filmmakers as well. It's just people want you to make the thing that you're embodying. And it can be confounding how you're going to get inside of something if it is not connected to you. And then I guess white guys get to tell whatever they want because they just can or they're capable of. I think proving capability is a thing that is hard for people. So there's some of that theme is inside the movie, right? It's inside the story you're telling.

There's an essence of autobiographical, but also the tone is a little bit. It's a little bit difficult to define and I won't try to define it. I would say people should see the movie, but how conscious were you guys about saying, you know, this is our story and our point of view on the world without feeling like you were feeding some expectation about representation or only embodying, as you said, you know, were you having nerves about telling that part of your lives? No, I think we're both pretty comfortable with where we're at or where we feel like we're not and where we'd like to go. We're both very safe in ourselves with putting that out there. I mean, it's I think it's pretty clear the things that feel like us. I mean, Brett's Jewish,

his character's Jewish. I'm a black person and there are black people in the movie. There is one scene that is very much like definitively from our lives, which is how we met. We met on this commercial nine years ago on a New York Lotto commercial where Brett was playing a Jewish minstrel. And I was a stylist on that. And so the scene where he and me and me is sort of an homage to that place that we met. And it was like this really upsetting job that was definitely like racist. I mean, he played a Jewish minstrel whose sole purpose is to sell lottery tickets to like the poor. So that's not great. And then our families. I think it is. I think I did the Lord's work.

Is that what the Lord wants for Jews or for you? One very lucky poor person, a bit of a cursed dream. That racist, exploitative commercial brought you guys together. Yeah. On the last day of that spot, Brett asked me out on a date, and I said yes. And then I think our date consisted of us going to a comedy show where he performed that I slept through. So that was our first date. I don't remember the bit I did.

I mean, I hope you don't. Why would you remember that? I don't know. Did you guys have creative chemistry the first time that you met, or was it just purely we're going to have a relationship? Because I'm always curious when people start, when they're in a relationship and they start collaborating on art, if you could sense that early on. I think we built to that. I mean, I think that I don't think either of us are people that could be with somebody in a relationship that is not at the top of their game with what they do, whatever that is. That is like my nightmare is to like my partner to be somebody who I have to lie to about the quality of their work. So would you lie to a partner though if like the sex was great?

Like that's when you're lying? I'm just curious like when you're going to lie. When am I going to lie? Yeah, like why would you stay in something that you were lying? Oh. Like that's when you're lying. I'm just curious, like when you're going to lie. When am I going to lie? Yeah. Like why would you stay in something that you were lying? Oh. Like what would be okay enough? Like what would. I think, I think lots of people do and see, see their partners as checking some box in themselves rather than, you know, and, and seeing the ways in which they benefit them personally

and are more able to compartmentalize them not doing what they do well. Got it. Whereas I don't – I think that that very much factors – I don't think you or I are that way. That very much factors into how we size people up is how good they are at what they do. We sound great, by the way. I feel maybe I should leave. Well, we're not people who like to lie. You know, we can only lie and humor so much.

So, yeah, I mean, you don't want to be constantly telling anybody that they're good when they're bad as, you know, at what they do or their personalities. And we do like to be open. And I think there is an openness to how we like to approach things because that's what we want from an audience. We want an audience to feel like we're reaching out to them and not feel like we're just displaying confidence up on that screen. I was going to say that I think the sort of synergy, if you will, of how we came together

creatively is probably rooted in that our sense of humor is very similar. Not in execution, but the things that make us laugh or the things that make us very upset or the things we're really concerned about are pretty symbiotic. And how we want to laugh, I know you didn't want to label Lemon, but I think Lemon is surreal and absurd and that is the stuff that we both really gravitate towards. I was going to ask you to do it for fear of somehow getting it wrong. Well, I would say it's surreal. I think it's a surreal comedy.

It's an absurd comedy. It's an surreal comedy. It's an absurd comedy. It's an experimental comedy. It's a stressful comedy. And all of the work that we have made independently fits under those banners. Can you do an elevator pitch for this movie? I'm fascinated to know how you explained the movie to people before you started making it. I always say that come watch me fail for 90 minutes. Is that accurate? Yeah, I'd say that come watch me fail for 90 minutes. Is that accurate?

Yeah, I'd say that. I'd say, yeah, we said it's a comedy about failure. It's a comedy about a plateau. And sometimes we go as far as to say it's an exercise or a conversation with privilege and mediocrity. So you did eventually finish the script and got it to the place that you wanted to. Yeah, we did. Then what happens? So when Michael said yes, things kind of fast-tracked.

And we sent the script out to more cast. We sent the script out to financiers. And we got money and we put our cast together. And on the first day of pre-production, one of our actors, who was not film so I can't name them backed out because they had another commitment and and when they backed out we lost a good chunk of our funding and it was pretty impossible to do the money to do the movie at the money that we had so it all fell apart like very quickly, like in three to five days, the whole thing sort of crumbled on itself. And I fell into a very deep depression that lasted for, I think, the rest of that year. And at the end of the year, for me, Michael was a part of this company called Josh

that was launching. That is Michael Cera, Sarah Silverman, Tim and Eric and Reggie Watts. And so they were, they had money and they wanted content, and I had written this short film called Gregory Go Boom that I pitched to them and they really liked, and then we made that. And so that was my follow-up to that very sad year. Do you think that Lemon would not have been, I don't know, maybe as accomplished or as confident

if that hadn't happened, if Gregory Go Boom hadn't happened and there hadn't been that pause? Definitely. No question. I think that, I think that the amount of time that it took to make Lemon is exactly the amount of time that I needed to sort of incubate actually. I think I could have made it probably a couple of years ago, but in the time that I wasn't making it, I made eight short films and I worked on an episode of television and I didn't go to film school. I went to theater school. So that time was for me kind of my film school. So I feel I feel sort of grateful, I guess, right now anyways. And looking back, I feel grateful for that time. I even feel grateful for that frustration because all of that anger and anxiety and pain went into what the final product is. Hey guys, we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor.

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Do it today. And now back to my conversation with Jinix Abravo and Brett Gelman. What is it like on set between you both? Obviously, you've made short films before this, but on a feature where you're working together, I mean, you're in, you know, 80% of the shots of the movie. How do you communicate? Is it clear to everyone? Screaming. Honestly, though.

Yeah, through screaming. Lots of screaming. No, it's, I think we were, our relationship was not in the room really at all. I mean, I think that there were some moments where things were a little bit like off kilter, I would say, where making movies is not easy and Brett is also a producer on the film. And there are a handful of moments where things got like incredibly bleak and I for the most part really keep actors out of that and I mostly kept Brett out of stuff

like that just because he needed to be in the film and not worried about what was happening outside of the film but there were a handful of moments where things were like super fucked up and people were not acting right and I will say like in those moments, like there is this sort of energy of like, well, my partner is here and, and I, I never

exercised it, but Brett did like, he would sort of see something not okay happening. And, um, and a couple of times, not because I asked him to, and in fact, I scolded him for doing it, um, but did sort of stand up for me but it was also kind of awesome I liked having that because I was like it's sort of like I have my own bodyguard here that I don't have to like kill on his own

just be like really bullish but beyond those dark moments it was I would say the best part of it for me was that was that drive to and from work in this shared experience of like, this is my partner and this is the thing, this is our baby and we get to make our baby and that feels really good.

And, you know, like shit talking to and from work about like who we hated. Yeah, that sounds like a normal marriage. Yeah, it was like pretty pleasurable. It was also really great for me because I could, since Brett is in most of the film and he's acting with the other actors, I also felt like I could step away a little bit more to kind of deal with the fires because I knew that the other cast felt safe with him

and I didn't have to babysit as much. I could take space a little. Just being able to look across the room and know a lot of these people in this room might not be okay, but there's definitely one person here that is like really on my side and in my corner. Well, that was, you know, part of my job. I mean, a big, one of the most important parts of a producer's job is to protect the director and make sure that they have room to only have to focus on the creative side of what they're doing. I just, I had to do that at times, you know, even when I wasn't being asked to do it.

I'm very good at sniffing out problems and reading bad vibes in a room. So even if when she was like lying to me and trying to protect me, I still found out what was going on because, you know, I went up to like other producers and was like, what's happening? And, you know, scared them into telling me the truth. And that only helped with my performance because he's a really – there's a tremendous amount of anxiety and rage that goes into producing in that type of environment and you could not have enough anxiety and rage

in Isaac. He's filled with that and that's a big thing that Janicza taught me too as an actor which is How to have rage? No, like these things that are happening to you off camera, it's all a part of it. And you should use it.

And it's a very odd thing because almost like the off camera takes care of you in that way. And like also almost like makes you a method actor if you let it. Because it is very, it will mirror what is happening in the piece, at least in an indirect way. I wanted to ask you guys about the loser white guy comedy because I feel like the first few reviews that I've read of the movie are like essentially the headline is this is not your average loser white guy comedy. Which, you know, is a compliment. But I was curious, like, is the movie in some way a direct reaction to this idea we have of this like ne'er-do-well who then comes out on top? Is that what you're thinking of? A million percent. Yes?

Yeah. Yes, it is a thousand percent a commentary on this kind of genre of 30-something, 40-something-year-old white guy who is flailing through life but that everything works out for. I kept hearing in sort of like discourse about these movies, there was like a, there's just something about him. There's just something about him. There's just something about him. And I was like, he's disgusting. Whoever this he is, I'm like disgusted by him. And also I've wondered if you could do a character like that, that was of color and that the audience would walk away going, there's something about him. I think they'd be disgusted. And so, yeah, Isaac is that character. And like in those films,

those films like navigate the love life, the career and family. Lemon goes through love life, family and career in the same way, but it's all plateau and it's all failure and it's all like not going to work out because I think that is the reality of that kind of man to me, me,

Jenickson. When I see that character, I'm like, nothing works out for this person. They're a fucking piece of shit. And, um, and they're not good.

They're also like, they're not good at the thing. They don't deserve that woman that they're with. I don't understand how they live in the space. That's so large. Like, what is their job? Like,

I don't, it's like, none of it makes sense. It's like the context is totally bananas because it's naturalism but then there are these things that don't make sense. But perhaps if I lived in a different body, I mean it's just – it's like me, Janixa. That wouldn't – that's not how it would work out for me. That's not how things work out for me. Yeah, and it's also you're not –

Yeah. I'm like what do you think? Those guys are not experiencing the real pain of that situation and the existential impotence of that situation that they're in. You don't see that. They're kind of just like coasting and they're cool with it. It's like soft nose. Whereas like we're used to hard nose and hard nose feel really bad. No decision is made. No decision is made.

So that's like every element of this film was to be a decision. It was also to be something that did not give any easy answers or wrap things up in a package or explain reacting to are not. It is tightly designed because those movies are not. But it's also because that's how Janixa works in Nothing. I was like, can I have some credit? I was like, can I have some credit? I am fascinated by the psychology Well, it's all you, darling. It's all you.

Thank you. I am pretty fascinated by the psychology of my contemporaries who are drawn to this subject matter where things do work out for. And I think they're drawn to it because maybe perhaps in their own life that happens. And I am repelled by it because like that's not my path. My path isn't things working out for me all the time. My path is filled with a great deal of rejection, actually. I want to ask you about that.

So specifically, you mentioned you directed an episode of television, Juneteenth, one of the best episodes of TV last year on Atlanta. Oh, thank you. And in that episode, as well as in your film, the notion of a sort of like excruciating social experience is really at the fore. And I'm interested in how you compose that and how you figure out when is far enough to go and when is, you know, how to determine the level of excruciation someone can experience. Yeah. Well, it's something I really like. I really like it in my own work. And when I was sent, it was really funny to me that I was sent that script. I mean, there were 10 episodes of that show, and there were nine available when I met on it.

And when I got that, I was like, oh, this is, like, so my thing. And I was like, do they know that's my thing? Is that why they're sending it to me, or is there something else? Like, I love race. Race play is, like is hot for me. And then this, like you said, there's a level of discomfort that I really like. I don't know how, I don't think there's a way for me to describe that because I think it's just innate. It comes naturally. It's just like a thing that I feel.

I also can feel, I'm also pretty comfortable with things being like, maybe like a little too far. For instance, there's a scene in Lemon Without Giving Anything Away where there is a sort of tug of war between Brett and Michael Cera. And I remember seeing the first edit or the first cut of it, and it was pretty short it was probably like 15 seconds and my note to our editor was to make it longer to our editor Joy McMillan and then it was like 20 seconds and I was like longer and at one point we had it going for I think like 90 seconds and that was too long I think it's like at 45 now but it was a little too long but I was like that's the thing that I I'm okay with going a little too far to the point of not being able to last or the point of things being so unbearable in comedy.

Because, I don't know, that's just the thing that I like. I like feeling stressed out. I like feeling pushed, pushed to a limit. You talked about getting the hard no a lot. Now you've, we talked about Juneteenth and obviously the movie coming out. I suspect that you'll be more recognized as an artist. You'll have more opportunity. How do you guys figure out what to do next?

Will you collaborate on the next thing that you do? There's definitely, there are definitely some opportunities that have risen and we'll work together again. I mean, the people who, the Janix and Brett that wrote Lemon are not the Janix and Brett that are sitting here right now. I mean, we were exercising, exorcising our fear, our anxiety, our worry that we were going to be left behind. And I mean, I think that's still a little bit of just how we operate naturally because our brains are broken. But it's not, we're definitely a little further along from that space that we were in six years ago yeah especially you oh thank you should we go through my idb credits she's working on like a couple i can't talk about it. I can't talk about anything specifically. That's astounding.

She's working on a few things I'm working on a few things writing something together she's you know going to cast me in some things maybe you know I don't know. It's almost like you have an inside track. We do have an inside track. I mean I am pretty

lucky that I do get to meet meet? Have we met? that I do get to meet meet? Have we met? That I do get to work with my favorite director right now. It's pretty awesome. Don't blow it. Wouldn't say that because that's a

horrible thing for me to say being in a relationship with the director, but that's how strongly I feel about it, Sean. And I made it clear that that was your, like how you work, right? I wasn't saying like. Are you talking about like two questions ago?

Yeah. I don't think, no one cares. Because the way in which you were like, oh, maybe I had something to do with it that you thought I was saying. I was just jabbing at you. I know what you meant. But I was clear.

You was clear. I know you know what I meant. I know what you meant. But I was clear. You was clear. I know you know what I meant. I want to make sure that John Q. Public or Jane Q. Public rather. I've never heard that. John Q. Public? No, first time.

Really? Yeah, first time. Everyone's going to believe you guys have a deeply healthy relationship. I wouldn't worry about any of this. I just wanted to make but it is, I mean,

I very much felt like I was along for the ride because I got to play the lead. And so I'm an actor and that's enough for a narcissist like me. So I'll basically do anything anybody tells me and agree with anything as long as I still get to play the lead. But in addition to that, it was, you know, in the way that she works is she's coming to the table with so much decided already. And then when she tells you what she's decided, it's all awesome. So there's no weirdness there. Just let the director do her thing. I like to wrap these conversations by asking people what the most interesting or exciting thing they've seen recently is. So I'm curious for both of you guys if you have an answer to that.

Ah. We're watching Twin Peaks. We're watching Twin Peaks. I mean, Twin Peaks is unbelievable. It's amazing that that's on television. There is a little bit of a commonality between Lemon and Twin Peaks. Do you know what I mean when I say that? That is, first of all, a massive compliment.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. He's my favorite. Okay. But there's something tonal and sort of like

not easy to define and you're trying to figure things out but you are in its own lane. Mesmerized by it in a way though. Yeah, in its own lane.

There's like something familiar and then not at all familiar at the same time. And I think different moments like the same moment will mean

in a Lynch film or in a Janixa film will mean way different things to different people. Some people might find something just disturbing and some people might find that disturbing moment really, really hilarious. And both filmmakers make nightmares. I was going to say I think he works in nightmares and I feel I work in anxiety. Right. But it's a, yeah, it's a different type of nightmare, but it's, it's an, it's more of a, like you forgot to memorize the lines for the play that you're going to perform. That kind of thing.

Yeah. As opposed to like a demon is living. Yeah. He's more like demon behind the garbage can. I'm more like internal demon. Am I going to be okay? I hope you exercise some of those demons. Brad and Janixa, thank you for coming in today.

I appreciate it, guys. You bet. Congrats on Lemon. Thanks. Thanks again to Janixa Bravo and Brett Gellman for sharing some of their personal intimate truth with me. And check back next week. We have a really great episode with one of my favorite directors, Adam Wingard, who has a new movie coming to Netflix called Death Note. We had a pretty fascinating conversation about the process

of getting that movie into the world and what it will be after it gets there. Thanks very much, guys. We'll see you next time. simple questions. Not to mention you can choose from over 20 collar styles, 10 cuff styles, and 500 different fabrics from classic to business to completely customize the shirt that you want. So stop wearing shirts that don't fit. Start looking your best with a custom fitted shirt. Go to propercloth.com backslash BS today. Enter gift code BS to save $20 on your first shirt. Do it today.