The Big Picture - Jennifer Lawrence’s ‘Red Sparrow’ Transformation With Francis Lawrence | The Big Picture (Ep. 53)

Episode Date: March 2, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with filmmaker Francis Lawrence about making ‘Red Sparrow,’ his fourth film in a row starring Jennifer Lawrence; their working relationship forged through ‘The Hunger Games’ movie franchise; and his new creative venture with Apple TV.More on movies from the Ringer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

you know, spy films tend to be super political or they can be really sort of like action tech-based, you know, Bond and Mission Impossible, Bourne, things like that. And I love those movies, but I feel like if you're going to go into a well-worn genre, you have to be able to do something different. I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer,

and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. Scorsese-De Niro, Burton Depp, Kurosawa Mifune, Lawrence Lawrence? In the pantheon of great director-actor pairings, Francis Lawrence and Jennifer Lawrence are making a bid to join some of the best. After three hugely successful Hunger Games movies, they've re-teamed for Red Sparrow, a brutal spy thriller set in Russia adapted from the popular novel by ex-CIA agent Jason Matthews. Francis Lawrence makes stylish, big-top Hollywood movies, but Red Sparrow, which we've taken to calling sex spies around the office here at The Ringer, is darker and nervier than his previous work. And you can still see flashes of his early career as one of the preeminent music video directors in the world, and the many movies he made with Beyonce, Justin Timberlake, Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, and many other pop stars. I talked with Francis Lawrence about forging a professional bond and

a personal relationship with Jennifer Lawrence, shooting some of the most explicit scenes in Red Sparrow, and why he's teaming up with Apple on a new TV series. Here's Frances Lawrence. Frances, thank you for joining me. Thank you. So, Frances, this is your fourth consecutive film with Jennifer Lawrence. You guys have forged quite a partnership. Yeah. I'm curious what sort of draws you guys together, what keeps bringing you back together.

We have a good working chemistry. I think that she and I got along right away, right from the beginning. You know, she was obviously somebody I inherited because I came out on the second film of the Hunger Games series. And, you know, she was the first person that I met with once I was hired on for the job. And we just got along right away. So I think that we became friends really quickly. I really liked the way she works. I think she would say that she really likes the way that I work. And we wanted to try and continue on the relationship after, you know,

doing the Hunger Games series. And I think especially because, you know, I specifically lived in those movies for about five years straight. She could at least sort of pop in and out. But every time she came back, she was getting a little bored of playing the character. You know, we love the character and the stories and all that, but I think she was sort of ready to move on

and do something different. So the idea of doing something completely different together from the ground up seemed really exciting. Yeah, this is different. Is it important for you to have a friendship when you have a sort of a movie star at the center of your project? No, I wouldn't say that it's important to have a friendship. I think it's important.

I'm a believer in enjoying the process of making movies. I think that most people have gotten into the business because making movies, you know, should be fun. Sure. And enjoyable. It shouldn't be torturous. I mean, it should be challenging and at times tough, but when you have like, you know, we have great team spirit and a good group of people, it makes it an enriching experience. And so I think it's important to be around people that you trust and that you admire and that you like. It doesn't mean you have to be friends sort of outside of work,

but I think that, you know, we spend just so much of our lives actually making them that for it to be a horrible experience would not be a good thing. I can relate to that with my colleagues. I'm trying to find people that I feel good feeling close to and spending a lot of time with, more time than our families and our partners. And, you know, it's a strange thing. So why this story? Like, how did it come to you? And why did you choose to make Red Sparrow? I was, I was finishing the last Mockingjay film. I was in post-production on that and the book landed on my desk.

Fox had sent it to me and I read it and I've always loved the spy genre. So I took a look and I was instantly sucked into the character of Dominica, the role that Jen plays. And I just found it to be a really unique way into the spy world. I think often they're very, you know, spy films tend to be super political or they can be really sort of like action tech based, you know, Bond and Mission Impossible, Bourne, things like that. And I love those movies, but I feel like if you're going to go into Dominica who gets sucked into, you know, against her will into the brutal world of espionage. And I liked that it didn't glamorize the world. I liked that it was a very lonely story. I liked that it was a survival story. And I loved the world building possibilities of it as well.

And so it sort of had a bunch of aspects that I find interesting in stories. So I decided to call Jen because I also saw her in the role as I was reading the book. I called her and kind of pitched it to her very briefly. And she said, hypothetically, she'd be interested. Called the studio and then we just kind of got going and it came together really quickly. Why was it interesting to you that it wasn't an action film? Because it's not an action movie and I feel like there may be some misconception that it is. Oh, I think for sure there's misconception. Yeah, so why was that notable to you? Because I just come off of doing three action films in a row. You know, I wanted to do something

different. I think I just like trying to do different things and using different muscles in terms of storytelling and world building and things like that. Did Jen feel similarly? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think she was drawn into it because she knew that I liked it. I think she was drawn into it because I think she liked the idea of the character. I mean, she clearly thought that it was a scary role to take on, but I think that was exciting for her as well.

The movie has, in our offices, has picked up a nickname nickname which is Sex Spies and it is a very you know it's obviously a very mature movie and obviously the heart of the story is very sexualized and I'm wondering

how you and Jennifer decided to develop that character and what you guys had to go over before deciding to make the movie in all honesty

I thought of her for it from the beginning but as I was developing it, I got worried that she wasn't going to want to do it because I had remembered that she had said she really wasn't interested in doing anything with nudity or sexuality. And clearly this movie called for that. And so I actually held her off from reading anything. So she didn't read the book beforehand and I didn't pitch her too much about it. But I was just kind of warming her up to it. And then what I wanted her to do was to read the script

so she could make a decision based on exactly what it was that I wanted to do. So I gave her the script, didn't know what she was going to say. She read it. She thought about it for a few days. She said I was in. And that kind of kicked off just a series of conversations that we would have up through the making of the movie. But basically she said sent him in.

I drove to her house. We sat in her backyard and just started to have conversations about the content, whether it be the violence or the sexuality and nudity. And I just wanted to make sure that I was really clear with her about what my approach was to the film and to those aspects of the film. And I wanted her to be a partner in that so that she could be vigilant along with me to make sure that whatever we did in the movie, we were making sure that it was marrying to the narrative

and to the character and to the themes. And I also wanted to talk to her too, because she'd never done anything like this, about what it would be like on the day. So that A, we're not shy about it. We can be open about it, talk about it, but that she would be as on the day so that a we're not shy about it we can be open about it talk about it but that she would be as prepared as possible and feel as safe as possible going into going into the shoot what was the most challenging part of making this movie what was the the most different thing

for you to try the biggest overall challenge and it's not such a specific it's not like a specific scene or something was just is the mystery of it, right? Because as a filmmaker, I know what's happening on every level and I know the outcome. And so it's a hard thing for me to gauge when I'm in the editing process, whether or not the mystery and the intrigue is working. And if that math of that kind of story is adding up at the end. And so more than ever, I've, I had to bring people in with no knowledge of the book, no knowledge of the screenplay to come in and make sure that A, it's staying interesting, and B, that it's making sense and it's not too confusing and that everything's adding up. Then, you know, there's sort of logistical things like the ballet sequence, getting Jen through all the training and figuring out how to make her look like a prima ballerina. And that was a pretty complicated visual effects sequence.

How did you do that? I'm curious. In the beginning beginning it sells you know when you're as you're watching those opening sequences you you are buying her yeah yeah yeah i mean part of what i wanted to do is i didn't want to do the cheat of shoot somebody from behind that's the real the ballerina get super tight on jen faking it a little bit right wide for the real the dancer i wanted to hold on wide shots and have it really look like it was Jen. So we put Jen through about four months of training. And she worked with fitness people, exercise people to

sort of open up her joints. And she worked with ballet coaches to learn the basics, but also learn the choreography, which helped her for the dancing, but also helped her for the character in terms of discipline and just posture and all that kind of stuff. Interesting. Do you always see yourself developing a De Niro Scorsese thing with an actor? It feels like now you and Jen have this trajectory. Do you see yourself making more films with her? I would love to make more films with her. Yeah, it'd be great.

I mean, I think she's fantastic at what she does and we enjoy working together. So yeah, I would love to. What did you take from the experiences of working with all those strong women when you were a music video director? I feel like, you know, you, you've worked with basically every major female pop star of two or three generations, Janet Jackson, Lady Gaga, Beyonce, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, what do you bring from those moments to filmmaking now? You know, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I've thought about that and I, I look back on the music video career and I don't really know how I ended up doing all the videos. But for whatever reason, I – because I started out doing all kinds of different things.

And then I sort of really ended the music video career kind of primarily doing all these big solo female artists. I don't know why. I think I've tried to think about it, and I thought part of it was most of them were willing to take more creative risks. I think that was part of it for me, that they were sort of willing to kind of go there, whether it be in terms of just the concept itself to the way that they're going to be styled. And I thought that, you know, there was just more fun to be had. I mean, you know, doing a video with somebody like Lady Gaga or Gwen Stefani, you know,

it's like sky's the limit. Yeah. You know, whereas, you know, I like, you know, I did two fun videos with Justin Timberlake, but I feel like there's just every possibility in the world with people like Lady Gaga and Gwen Stefani. Yeah, it feels correlative too to the movies that you make too. You're really able to spotlight a single solo protagonist in your stories and focus on them and make them the centerpiece

in a way that really is involving and connects us. But I was wondering if there's any part of you that misses kind of the catch and release quality of working on a music video where you don't have to give two years of your life to it. Totally. That was a really fun thing. I mean, I have to say that doing that for about 10 years made me long for something to live in for a long time. Oh, interesting.

So it was sort of the opposite for a while. Then when you come off of a movie and you've spent a few years or you come off of Hunger Games and you've spent five years, then you sort of do, you know, you sort of yearn for the fast four weeks in and out, right? So from, you know, concept to completion, being done in four weeks, there's something really nice about it. What about a middle ground? Like the movies that you've made now for basically the past decade have been, or at least in this decade, have been very big and involved and have taken a long period of time.

Is there any part of you that wants to make a small 90-minute chamber piece or something like that? I would, yeah, totally. I don't seek out big movies. I just, I think that I get attracted to, like with Red Sparrow, I think you nailed it with talking about the sort of solitary figures that I really, it's something that just really appeals to me. And so somehow when that marries up with some sort of world-building possibilities, I get really excited.

And so, you know, if I were to find something like that that happened to me really small, I would certainly do it. Let's talk a little bit about spy movies. You mentioned that a lot of them have sort of an action element that you weren't as interested in. But were there touchstones that you went back and watched or books that you read before you started working on this? Or were you solely focused on the Red Sparrow-ness of it all? No, I looked at a lot of stuff. I mean, I did a lot of research, so I did a lot of reading. I mean, the author of the book is ex-CIA, as was his wife, so they were a great resource. I looked at a lot of other memoirs and sort of nonfiction accounts of things that had happened through various eras in the world of spycraft.

I also looked at a lot of spy films, but mostly I was looking at spy films to avoid doing things that had been done before, as opposed to trying to find things to recreate or give nods to or anything like that. When you have an interrogation scene or a torture sequence, which is a bit of a genre trope, right? You want to make sure you're not going to do it like anybody else has done it before. You've got a corker of an interrogation sequence in this movie. So we, you know, we would go through movies just to make sure that we were not, you know, treading where other people would tread. Has you been a fan of the genre? Like, do you read John leCarré novels? Do you care about that stuff?

Yeah, I do. I do. And I like all kinds of spy films. I mean, I was, you know, I grew up a Bond film fan. I love the Bourne movies. I also love the LeCarré movies. You know, my production designer did Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy. Oh, wow.

I'm a huge fan of the genre. Tell me about working with Jason Matthews and learning about spycraft. And I'm always interested in how much authenticity matters when you're making a movie like this. Did you need to get things right or did they just have to be compelling? I think it was a, it's a bit of a hybrid. For the most part, I was always really interested in the authenticity. So we tried to be as authentic as possible, partly because I found that the authentic is really kind of grounded. And that helped us sort of steer away from the sort of high-tech gadgetry of other kinds of movies. So I found that very grounded.

There were occasions, and there's a bit that I can describe in the beginning of this movie that isn't all that authentic, but it helped. But I couldn't figure out an authentic way where I could tell the story in the same way. And so there's basically Joel is playing an American CIA agent that's in Moscow, and he is waiting for a message from his mole. And he gets a phone call with this kind of code coming through the phone. And the truth is that nobody would ever use a phone line, right? Because they would all be tapped and all these kinds of things. I mean, you know, nobody would be able to necessarily decipher a code that quickly, but one possibly could. So what they would normally use would be something like Joel, if he wanted a message, would go and check under the banister of his railing in his apartment building.

And if there was a little dab of Vaseline, he would know that he's going to go meet his guy in the park at whatever time. So that as a filmmaker, when you're trying to show that he's getting a message and he knows where to go and knows what time to go there, it gets a little tricky when you just have a little dab of Vaseline to sell for it not to be confusing. Yeah, those little sequences are really interesting. I read recently you talking about something that

you didn't fully do in I Am Legend and audiences didn't quite get a critics in quite the generators. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a huge learning lesson for me

and the I Am Legend thing was that I would say about a quarter of the critics that saw the movie thought that I had made this big fuck up and that I had left the power on in the city after three years of No Civilization. Right. Which clearly I did not do. But a quarter of the critics that saw it just thought I was an idiot.

And then what I realized because, you know, what I had done was very early on in the movie, there's a shot of Will going into his pantry and you see these three generators running in the pantry. And what I realized is I, as a filmmaker, am assuming that people know what a generator is. The thing to do when you need to sell that point in the story is that he goes into his pantry and you see him kickstart a generator. And then behind him as it starts, the lights in his house come up, which would have sold, oh, that's the thing that's giving his house power. And it's a big learning lesson for me. And it's really tricky because you can't really assume that an audience knows anything. It must be even more true with spycraft, which is so complex.

Yes. So if you're talking to Jason Matthews before you're making the film or while you're making the film, is he saying, don't do that, that's not right? Or does he understand that there's a sort of movie magic quality that you got to pull off? He understood. So we went back and forth a little bit. He understood. I mean, he knows.

I mean, I'm sure he would say in a second that that's not the most authentic. You know, Joel's character also carries a gun in that sequence, and that's not all that authentic either. But other than that, there's not a lot in the movie that's that far off, which is something that I'm really happy about in terms of the spy craft or trade craft. You said that the studio actually put the book in your hands, right? Yes. A movie like this getting greenlit is fascinating to me because even though there is a big movie star part, it is not part of an expanded universe. Right. It's still a big film. And it has very mature themes. Once you started diving into it, was it easy to sell them even though they put it into your hands?

It was. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I kind of made a very clear pitch about what my take on the story was going to be. Because the book was a bit more of a two-hander. I also wanted to change the ending of the book, but I also was very clear about the tone, which I thought would be hard R.

And I pitched to the president, to Emma, the president of the studio, over the phone a few days after I read the book. And she fully agreed with me, and they never wavered. I mean, they never tried to sort of push me into PG-13 territory. And they'd had a bunch of success with other R-rated films, you know, like Gone Girl and Logan and Deadpool and things like that. So they were kind of ready to take this risk.

What about the Russian aspect of this story? Obviously, we find ourselves in a complex moment with Russia and our relationship to Russia. Were you guys thinking about that when you were working on the script and shooting? Did you have a sense of how some of these elements would impact the way that your movie is received? No, you know, what's interesting about that is because we started this movie about three years ago, when we started working on the script, that aspect of the movie felt really irrelevant. I mean, we had conversations about how the idea of a modern Cold War

just sort of felt passe, like it was kind of an outdated idea. But for us, we were never making a political movie. It was never really an us versus them kind of a story. It was really much more of sort of a personal story for Dominica and that journey and survival story. And so we sort of set that aside. And then as we got into pre-production and, you know, the election was around and, you

know, the news started to reflect the movie a little bit. It was just really fascinating to watch. And I mean, it's clearly still around now. Do you see it as a good thing for the movie? I don't know. I mean, it's always it's never bad. I think if if there's an element of the movie that feels relevant, I don't, I don't think that's a bad thing, but I don't, again, I don't see it as a political film, so I'm not sure. I mean,

I don't think that it's connections to what's in the news now is going to drive people into the theater. You never know. I don't know. I feel like some people are, are, are uncommonly interested in Russia in a way that maybe they weren't three years ago. Yeah, that may be true. That may be true. What's your process for figuring out what your next film is? Are you already at work on your next film? I'm just getting started actually on a television series. Oh, okay. Well, that was also a question I was going to ask because that is, I would say, 40 to 50% of the people that are sitting in that chair say, I'm starting on a television series. What led to that? It actually got brought up to me by the producers of Red Sparrow,

Peter Chernin and Jenno Topping and David Reddy, the people that produced the movie with me. We were at our first test screening, and we were having a couple drinks before the test screening to ease test screening nerves. And Peter pitched me this idea. So there's this great English writer named Steve Knight, who did, you know, Eastern Promises and Locke and Peaky Blinders and things like that. And he's just

fantastic writer. He'd come up with this idea and developed two scripts. So two episodes of, will probably be an eight episode season of this really, really imaginative show. And so he pitched it to me. It sounded great. All the kinds of stuff that I love. And then I met with Steve and then we went around and we sold it to Apple. Interesting. Yeah. So what's that experience been like thus far? It's been good. I mean, it's in the very early stages. So, um, you know, the, the next episodes are getting worked on and we're trying to figure out budget and where to shoot it. And, you know, just kind of just at the initial stages of ramping up. A company like Apple, the way that they can disperse their original entertainment is kind of unknown. We don't totally yet know, at least not in the kinds of things that you make.

Do you worry and think about how many people are seeing your work and where they're seeing it? Is that on your mind? Does it matter if someone watches it on a phone? I would prefer not. Look, it's partially because it's the world we live in. I, you know, I would prefer people to watch it on bigger screens. I mean, ideally for me, people would have access in numerous ways. Just be great for the stories to get out there. And I think people just, you know, it's a changing world. People just aren't really flocking to the movies except for very rare things. It's interesting.

Do you have anxiety about that? Does that lead to making a choice about TV? A little bit. I mean, I wouldn't say it's anxiety. I think it makes me sad. Yeah, me too. I think the sort of social, the social, you know,

experience of going to movies and seeing things in a large format and seeing them with a crowd. And I think that's a sad thing to lose. You said that you always want to try to do something a little bit different after you finish something. Are there other kinds of stories you've been wanting to tell, other genres you've been wanting to dip into you haven't had a chance yet? Well, there's lots of stuff that I'm interested in. I would love to really do straight-up sci-fi. I'm developing a Battlestar Galactica script with Lisa Joy,

who's one of the creators of Westworld. As a series? No, as a movie. Interesting. Yeah, as a movie. I found this great story about this Russian woman in World War I. Her name's Maria Bochkareva, and she created the Women's Battalion of Death,

which is just an amazing true story of this woman in Russia in World War I. So I've been developing that with a great writer. Back to Russia for you, huh? Yeah, yeah. What's drawing you back there? That actually started, though, that project actually started before Red Sparrow.

It's just been slower going, developing that one. Okay. Francis, I like to end every episode by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that you've seen? So what is the last great thing you've seen? I watched There Will Be Blood yesterday. Oh my, absolute favorite movie. Yeah, that's one of my favorite movies of all time. And I hadn't seen it in a long time. What brought you back to it? It was just on, it was on, I forget, it was just on, you know, direct TV or something. And I was flipping through channels and I saw that and I popped it on and it was, you know, that's one of those movies that if you've got the time and it's on, you sit through it. So I sat through that and watch that again. I feel like I'm being set up. Everybody knows this is, that's like my movie. Oh really?

It's very funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. So I just, I sat through that yesterday, but I guess, you know, if you're thinking about newer things, I mean, and that just reminds me of Phantom Thread. I think Phantom Thread's the other sort of great last thing that I've seen. Do you take a lot of things from your contemporaries? Do you feel like when you get inspired by watching other people's movies, do you get jealous? What's that relationship like? I'm not sure I get jealous. Paul Thomas Anderson certainly sort of inspires me.

I mean, not that you'd be able to see it in my movies, but I certainly like think about things. Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly influenced by lots of people and by lots of contemporary directors. Absolutely. Well, Francis, thank you so much for doing this. Congrats on Red Sparrow. Thanks.

Thanks for listening to today's show and to Francis Lawrence for coming by. For more on Red Sparrow, give a read to K. Austin Collins' review of the movie and the state of J-Law's career on TheRinger.com. And tune in to The Ringer on Sunday to find all of our Oscar coverage, including my predictions and our live coverage of the show itself, which will include a fun pre- and post-game after-party streaming show with me, The Watch Boys' Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald, and Amanda Dobbins. We'll be taking your questions and breaking down the biggest night in movies. See you then. The Olympics are here, which means one thing and one thing only. The Bachelor Winter Games are also here.

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