The Big Picture - ‘Joker: Folie à Deux’ Hates You. Will You Return the Favor?

Episode Date: October 4, 2024

Sean is joined by Van Lathan to discuss ‘Joker: Folie à Deux,’ the off-putting sequel to Todd Phillips’s 2019 ‘Joker,’ starring Joaquin Phoenix and Lady Gaga (1:00). They discuss the jukebox musical format’s successes and failures, the filmmaking vs. the experience of watching it, and whether they ultimately liked the movie. Then, they zoom out to discuss the state of moviegoing and movie watching (43:00) and explore whether we’re in a uniquely strange place with the reception of movies and the conversation social media inspires about divisive films and filmmakers. Finally, Sean is joined by director Greg Jardin to discuss his debut feature ‘It’s What’s Inside,’ an all-in-one-night sci-fi thriller with some unexpected twists (spoilers!) and fresh filmmaking choices (1:05:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Van Lathan and Greg Jardin Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessy and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about your boy, Arthur Fleck. Wow. Today on the show, we are discussing Joker, Fully Adieu, Todd Phillips' follow-up to the Oscar-winning 2019 film, Joker. Joining me to do it is Van Lathan. Hi, Van. What's up?

Thank you for being here. Later in this episode, Van, I have a conversation with writer-director Greg Jarden. His new movie, It's What's Inside, is now on Netflix. Do you know about this movie? I do not. It debuted at Sundance earlier this year. It was one of the big acquisitions out of Sundance.

A lot of people thought it was a horror movie. It's actually more of a thriller, very high-concept thriller. It reminded me of a lot of movies from the 80s and 90s that you and I like a lot and have talked about before. You should check it out. People should listen to my conversation with Greg. He's had a long journey to making movies. high concept thriller reminded me of a lot of movies from the 80s and 90s that you and I like a lot and have talked about before. You should check it out. People should listen to my conversation with Greg.

He's had a long journey to making movies. Super nice guy, super smart guy. Give me a comp when you say some of those 80s thrillers, if you could think of one.

It has the energy of like Heathers or like Clue or Gremlins. Oh, okay. Like,

antic movie with young people and a crazy high concept like soft sci-fi thing oh wow yeah heathers is one of those surreal dreamlike movies that i go back to like maybe once every six years and it feels just as fresh and new as it did when i was a kid i think you will dig this one um a couple of other notes before we start. I have a very special message from Amanda Dobbins. She wanted to say that she wants to honor the life of Chris Christopherson, the late great actor, singer, songwriter, activist,

frankly, one of the coolest Americans of all time. She also noted that he could get it all the way up until the day he died. That is a verbatim quote. And I'd like to thank her for sharing that from outside the halls of this space. Chris Christopherson, an actor I love. Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. Incredible banger of a movie. If you haven't seen it, check it out.

Watch it immediately. Any other thoughts on Chris Christopherson? I love him. Obviously, a lot of different movies. Stars Born. Had a second sort of wind in my life as Whistler blade but blade whistler uh and when i was uh a kid another very big pop culture moment when shanae o'connor was going through her and don't let the bastards get you down he just always was there as a steadying voice like almost like

this sounds this may be a little bit hyperbole but i'm van i have to do it maybe like the conscience of hollywood in a way i think that's a very smart way to describe it like on the on the right side of things cool guy and it's it's a big loss long fantastic life i saw a picture of him in college in 1957 and you're like jesus christ he's a little older than i thought he was he was rocking out to buddy holly and stuff a life well lived so you know rest in peace chris kislofferson man very well said let's talk about this huge new movie that's come out joker folia do we saw it last night we saw it at a special imax presentation it's once again directed by todd phillips written by Scott Silver and Todd Phillips,

just like the first film. It stars Joaquin Phoenix. It stars Lady Gaga. Yeah. It stars Zazie Beetz. Harry Laudy from Succession. He showed up. Brendan Gleeson,

Catherine Keener. Brendan Gleeson. Yeah. Yeah. Stacked cast. Yeah. I'm going to briefly describe the setup for this movie, okay?

So it's set two years after the first Joker film. Now in Arkham Asylum and awaiting the trial for the murders of five of the people that he killed in the events of the first film, Arthur Flex Joker has become a symbol, whether he's an empty symbol or a meaningful symbol, of an uprising in Gotham. That there's a discontent and he stands in for it. So this movie uses a very unusual structure to portray Arthur's inner pain. And that structure is the movie musical.

Song. Yeah. There are a lot of song and dance numbers in this movie. Gaga's introduction into the movie gives it a certain kind of a flavor, but it still looks and feels very much like a Joker movie. It's about two hours and 20 minutes. It's definitely one of the most anticipated movies of the year, though I have sensed that the anticipation has been waning

since the Venice premiere and since some of the reviews have started to come out but when we sat down last night you were like i'm really looking forward to this i was shocked at how excited i was when once i sat in the chair to see the film uh why the intrigue, the curiosity, where they could possibly go, the intersection of the Batman lore with this new take on examining all of these contemporary ideas that really seem to be pulled from our society in real time, where they would take that story. Lady Gaga, who's a performer I really like. When I sat down, I was like, you know, despite whatever you thought about the first movie, and I'm not somebody who is such a pure soul that I couldn't appreciate the first movie for what it was. I know it's very popular to be like,

oh, the movie represents everything that's bad with society, and therefore I hate it. I kind of don't feel that way. But you were not a big fan of the first film. Not a big fan. I wasn't a big fan just on the film itself. If I want to watch that movie, I'll watch There Will Be Blood.

I'll watch Taxi Driver. I'll watch, I don't need it in my Batman world where I want to see batarangs. Yep. Okay, and people flying around and stuff. Yep. Or even the Joker is scheming and all of that stuff. Stop dipping your

Batman peanut butter in my there will be blood chocolate is what you're saying right is what I'm saying however if I divorce myself

from that and I just judge the movie incredibly well acted well made film there it is this one I wanted to see how they would

like bring all of these things together to make their movie I was very curious and excited to see it I was curious too I really liked how they would bring all of these things together to make their movie. I was very curious and excited to see it. I was curious too. I really liked the first movie.

I talked about it. I felt like I understood the first movie. I felt like the way that the kind of narrative around the movie got away from it, I found not confusing. It actually felt very representative of what it was like to be in America in 2019 when everything became a kind of political pipe bomb and everything was either,

this is an incredible achievement in filmmaking or this is an incel manifesto and that there was no in between. I felt like it was very in between those two things. I think weirdly Todd Phillips has gotten better and better and better as a filmmaker. And it's a weird thing to say about the guy who made Road Trip and The Hangover,

but I feel like he has really started to hone his craft in fascinating ways and is maybe making the movies more like the kinds of movies he wants to be making. Doesn't feel like he's mired in studio comedy world in particular. He's also found this kind of, you know, kindred spirit in Joaquin Phoenix, another complicated, somewhat frustrated creative soul who's kind of always looking for a new challenge. I was definitely interested in this movie. Definitely looking forward to it. Liked the trailer. As soon as the Venice reviews started coming out,

I was like, uh-oh. We're in trouble. This is not exactly what you want to be reading about a movie. Nevertheless, try to go in with an open mind. So I ask you, what do you think of Jokerfolio 2? I don't get it and and i tried and after the movie during the movie there's literally a moment where whatever they're trying to do it just stops working on me uh to where the curiosity has worn off.

I know what I'm seeing now. I know what I'm watching now. And I'm like, this just is excruciating. This is like, it's tough. It's musical numbers that aren't fun to watch. It's poorly performed musical numbers. I think that's by design. I think so too. But at the same time i'm like what

what what's the deal like it's there's nothing there for me the film gets to a point at the end where you see what he's trying to do the by far the strongest part of the movie is the last 20 minutes 20 or 30 minutes to me, where he makes his point. Todd Phillips makes his point about Arthur Fleck in the movie, and it ends in a way I didn't think that it would end. And then I talked to you a little bit after, and that gave me some more clarity

in terms of what the goal of the filmmaker was. So this is just my reading, but my sense of the movie, which I found at times excruciating, extraordinarily drawn out. Right. I think the choice to perform the songs in a kind of like talk, sing, whisper mode, as opposed to the traditional dramatic kind of 80-yard sing at the top of your register approach, which Lady Gaga does occasionally, but not in joaquin phoenix never gets to the lady gaga talent that we one time she goes she gets close but for the most part she sings in the same register that joaquin sings in which is this sort of gravelly and simple and spoken and quiet approach but the movie itself the pacing the way

that it's set up and then especially as you, the conclusion of the movie feels like a direct repudiation of the success of the original movie and everything that everyone said about it. It seems like Todd Phillips became frustrated by people who said that this was an incel nightmare and was like, you misunderstood my intention. I'm going to show you that this is an unfeeling world and that when we have people in it who are overlooked who are mentally unwell who have been abused that this is what can happen

and that this is what this cracked society will then understand about themselves by what like raising a person like this up

you know what I mean it's like a the first movie is a big bold comment on America whether it's sophisticated whether it makes sense to you or you agree with it we can debate that yeah this movie is like listen arthur fleck has been kicked by the world he's not a hero he's not someone we should look up to he's also just a

sad reflection of the way that we treat each other in the world like that's what this movie is about and so the movie is just basically a sad long follow through an awful person's awful life who's committed heinous crimes, who cannot be fixed, who cannot be really understood. There's occasionally a handful of people. The Catherine Keener character is clearly a stand-in for someone who's trying to better understand and protect this person and that there are a handful of voices in the darkness but he's essentially like punishing us for celebrating his movie yeah i can't recall many examples in the history of movies where a filmmaker who's had more success and who's had more of a just absolute gut-busting billion dollar movie like joker immediately just shoving in our face and saying how do you like it

this is what i'm talking about this is is what it is. And he cuts it so interestingly with music. Not just with music, but with 50s and 60s jazz and pop standards. With Frank Sinatra songs. With songs you might hear Eartha Kitt or Ella Fitzgerald sing.

With Sonny and Cher style songs. With Burt Bacharach songs. With the sort of warmest, biggest, broadest, widest appealing mid-century American culture. It's a cool choice. It's an interesting idea. It's just not fun to watch at all. And watching the movie, I was like, man, this guy fucking hates me. He hates me and he hates that I liked the first movie and he hates that other people misunderstood it. And he really needs to double down on his point. So how do you even evaluate that?

Yeah, it's tough. So there's so many things there. Number one, the movie continues to harken back and pull you into a space. Like even when there is a, they do the Sonny and Cher thing. The whole bit that they do. You're like, I've seen that. That always makes me feel good. Whatever. And then he he reminds you i don't want you to feel good i don't want you to feel good this is not to feel good this is not for fun i'm not doing this for for

you to feel good i want you to feel bad yes and i want you to feel bad and the most to me, interesting take on it is how he directly indicts the audience. So Arthur Fleck in the first movie is someone whose psychosis or his misdeeds, his grotesque acts that he commits are then taken up by people and used as something more. He becomes a symbol. He's raging against all of the dysfunction in Gotham and all of that. And in this movie, they just say, no, I did this because I wanted to. Joker isn't real. There's nothing more to it. I'm just an empty, sad, terrible person. And if you have found any greater meaning in that, that's on you. Everyone who believes in Arthur Fleck in this movie, like, loses faith in him. Gaga loses faith in Joker. Catherine Keener loses faith in actually Arthur Fleck. And at the end, he's just by himself bleeding on the floor.

And that seems to be us. At the end, we're just left by ourselves bleeding on the floor asking, what the hell just happened here? You know? And so for me, spoiler alert, there's one scene in the movie where he keeps teasing. For the comic fan, he keeps teasing you with a greater jokerness. And there's one scene where at the end of the trial, fucking place blows up. Two faces created.

He literally has one face, one side of his face. The Harvey Dent character is affected by the explosion. And one side of his face blows up. Come on. That was a little catnip for me. I was like, okay. And then he,

uh, Arthur Fleck escapes. He's picked up by these people. They're in Joker mass. And you thinking, whoa, is this the start of Joker's gang? Is this the start of whatever,

whatever's going to happen, um, to make this character into somewhat of the character that we, that we recognize from other Batman movies. And he rejects those people. Very directly. He already rejected them

in the courtroom. He rejects those people. They attempt to save him and he leaves them. He leaves them. He leaves them and he goes back to Lady Gaga.

He rejects them then she rejects him. And he is a man with no country. And that's Todd Phillips' point. And I get to that point and I go, oh, okay. But shouldn't I get something in the first two hours of the movie to make me feel aha about that? I got bad songs.

I got incredibly tough to watch scenes emaciated scenes i think that there's a scene where the guards sexually assault him yeah and so like the movie itself is just remarkably unwatchable hard to watch and i don't know how i'm supposed what I'm supposed to get out of it I get the point um I get what he's trying to say but what do I get like what do what do I get for going to see the movie well it's a fair question to ask and it it it dovetails so much with whatever's been rattling around in my head about movies and we can talk about it as we get once we get past Joker folia do but sort of like what is the audience owed and then what is the appropriate response to a movie feels very baked into the creative decisions of this movie that doesn't

always seem to be the case sometimes an artist is just like I have a vision I'm gonna tell my story the end and that's okay that's great sometimes an artist is like what I like to do is entertain maybe inform but I like to entertain. And then sometimes somebody's like, I got a job and I got to do my job. Right. This isn't really any of those things. This is actually something

that is a particular strike at at least a segment of the audience of this movie. And in doing so, we're all affected. Like the shrapnel is everywhere. So if you were anticipating the second Todd Phillips Joker so if you were anticipating the

second todd phillips joker movie you were going to get i'll be very surprised if there is a loud contingent of people who are like i loved it because it's just not meant to be loved it is meant to be understood maybe it's meant to make you feel uh kind of sadness about not just this character but maybe like the way that we treat people in the world, the complete lack of empathy, all the things that were the point of the first film. But it isn't a good time. And to tease us with some of these songs and the like,

it's not just that one moment where they have this sort of Sonny and Cher sing along. There's a couple of other songs here and we can talk about some of the songs. But, you you know for example the one time I got chills while watching this movie was when Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered is being sung by Arthur Fleck

and I think that I think it was the moment during the TV interview he's singing it and then she's watching him on the television on the television yes

the Gaga Harley Quinn character is watching him on TVs in a storefront while he's being interviewed for by a TV newscaster played by Steve Coogan in the day's hours leading up to his trial. And as is so often the case, the Joker character bursts in the song in the middle of the movie. It doesn't burst so much as sort of like slowly begin to croak a song. And he sings Bewitched, which is, you know, Frank Sinatra standard.

And the orchestra swells and the song gets big and what we see is really Harley Quinn making a deeper connection with Joker through a television screen and that's like a communication of his magnetism

this like undeniable thing that obviously Joaquin as a performer has that the Joker creation has it's in a weird way sort of a justification of the misunderstanding of Arthur Fleck's life and intentions.

And I was like, okay, I see what he's doing now that this is like, maybe this is more like, um, network, you know, maybe this is going to be more like a movie about the power of media and what

media can do to distort our brains and that we all are waiting for a call to action. And it doesn't hurt that I really liked the song, uh, bewitched,, and Bewildered. I think it's one of the best musical performances in the movie. But he doesn't follow through on that moment at all. And we do get a number of other performances. We hear For Once in My Life, the Stevie Wonder song.

We hear I've Got the World on a String. We hear Close to You. We hear The Joker by Shirley Bassey. We hear That's Entertainment. That is like another core theme of the movie. That undergirds the movie. Like that particular song, it's almost as if they're selling you on the idea of what you see in the world and how you worship those things, it's all fake. It's all entertainment. And the characters in our actual world that we vault to these, that it's all bullshit.

Like that is what the main theme of the movie seems to be. It's so, it is the theme of the movie. We see early on the scene from the bandwagon where Bats Entertainment is performed and then the film has this kind of

conclusive moment between Harley Quinn and Joker featuring Bats Entertainment. And I get the point. I'm certainly guilty of idolatry and lifting people up

who are ultimately not that important to our society and maybe overlooking some of that. It's our whole life. It's what we do. It is our whole life. Right. You know you know ride the high of a mets playoff run as

i think about the works of francis ford coppola you know fucking superman christopher reeve documentary commercial came on yeah i fucking cried yeah i like i was like i got i got very i got weepy like real like actual tears i think it's 44 years old i think that's okay if you have the self-awareness to laugh about it right i mean i don't think there's anything wrong with it i don't know if the movie thinks it's not okay i think obviously the movie is talking about like there's extremes to this if you are for example blowing up a courtroom and attempting to free your face-painted Avenger. Right. That's not really where you want to go.

But I'm not sure where the extremes are. Like, I'm not sure what is the limitations. Like, if you host a fandom podcast, are you guilty of the sins that Todd Phillips has outlined here? Without a doubt. And I'll tell you, and part of this is an indictment on the fanboys as well and it's and tall phillips has been doing this he's kicked the fanboys in the nuts twice i'll just be honest with you he's kicked us in the nuts he's kicked the fanboys in the nuts twice he kicked us in the nuts with the first movie with i tweeted something and i didn't expect the tweet

to be as big of a deal as it was okay Did you go viral? I went viral with this tweet. And what I said is like, is this Joker going to scheme or plot or do anything? Or is he just going to laugh and crash out for like two hours? And everyone, there was a very healthy argument about what you should expect from this movie, especially after the filmmaker has told you what he wants to do. That he's using this world, this backdrop,

as more of a conceit than anything else. He's not giving you what you want. So stop trying to see the killing joke or the Dark Knight Strikes Back. It's not any of that stuff. The Dark Knight Returns, any of that stuff. It's not what he's doing. He's doing something different.

And in this, when I watch it, there is no... He washed this movie of the DNA of anything that really has to do with DC. And he's actually interrogating the very nature of being a fanboy in this movie. Everybody who's a fanboy in this movie loses. Arthur turns his back on them.

Arthur's by himself. They are by themselves. You believe in nothing. It's all just entertainment. And what is real? And what is real is the fact that this guy lives in a society where he had no help, where no one cared about him, where he was constantly abused, where he was taken advantage of, where he was made a victim

that became an aggressor that ends up dead on the floor of a prison with no greater meaning, with no greater ministry, with no greater message. And you just got to live with it because that's how life goes. You know what's tricky about it though? I think you're 100% right. That's clearly the intention. And he hammers it home a second time. He doesn't really give us what we want, despite showing us Harvey Dent, despite showing us Arkham Asylum, despite showing us these things that are signifiers.

Wayne building, all of that stuff. You know what I mean? But a movie that I think is ultimately about a cry for empathy, ultimately just feels nihilistic. Of course. It doesn't feel like what can happen if you extend a hand. It only feels like here's what happens if we continue to kick each other.

It doesn't mean it's not worth portraying, but it has no texture beyond that. It's only one thing. And I guess it's a worthy pursuit. I'm trying to be open-minded about this. There is one scene in the movie that I thought was really, really moving. It didn't have anything to do with Lady gaga it didn't have anything to do it had to do with the actual person in the movie that i feel like the movie is talking about and that's the gary puddles character

when he's on the stand and he is just living in this horror he's traumatized he's traumatized from someone who he legitimately had an affinity for. And they're talking past each other. Like, Arthur's telling him, I'll let you live. I didn't kill you. You're good. He goes, no, I'm not good. Like, I can't sleep.

I can't do anything. I'm a prisoner of this moment that you put me through and the messed up thing about it is you were the only person that was ever good to me you were the only person that was ever good to me and now

you have become my albatross you have become my nightmare you have become this in my life I'm completely alone because of who I am in this society I had one person

that treated me good and now that person is my Freddy Krueger. He is exasperated at Arthur. Arthur is exasperated at him. And you wonder like, who's responsible for all of this fucked upness? Like that scene when he was walking away, I was actually moved. I was sad. That's the first time in the movie I ever felt any emotion because I had lost the ability to feel any emotion for arthur i couldn't feel anything for him anymore because he killed a bunch of people and i get that he had a tough life but either he's gonna go on to fucking fight batman or or or it's just or he's just a fucking spree killer

that it's hard for me to feel empathy for. Yeah. I was trying to figure out as I was watching the movie, and I ask this because the movie is multiple different things. It's a grim character study. It's a prison movie. It's this jukebox musical we're talking about. It's a cracked love story.

It's really an epic tragedy, but for the most part, it's a courtroom drama. It's a movie that takes place in a courtroom. The best parts of it are certainly that. The movie actually is nothing until we get into the courtroom.

And you can, that is when Joaquin Phoenix is given license to kind of come alive in the ways that were so exciting in the first movie that like he feels his most theatrical,

his most over the top. The story, it has some tension there. And so what I was wondering about was is this movie an attempt to have like a strong point of view on the justice system or like the way that we treat criminals you know like uh arthur is on trial for his life and if he is convicted he will be uh like electrocuted you know that's really he's going to the chair and i still don't i i don't really know

it's really hard to parse. Like, is that not, is this film against the death penalty? Is it for it? Is it against the way that the penal system works? Is it, you know, I wouldn't,

he is mistreated in prison, but he's also given all of these special privileges. You know, he's treated as a kind of like a mascot. And that shows us like what we think about how the world treats

a person like Arthur Fleck. But what does it mean about anything else that isn't Arthur Fleck? I don't really feel like it had any depth trying to explore any of those things. And it uses them as a tool to make its point. But it doesn't have like any character beyond that. And that's one of the reasons why a movie like this can feel dull. You know, like if a movie is about a few other things, if it has a few more ideas,

or if it's a little bit more exciting to your point, it'll work. It's just hard to come out of a movie like this and not just feel like, well, I guess, fuck us, fuck me,

fuck everything. To your point, even about like prison. So there's one scene where they're walking, him and Brendan Gleeson are walking and they just, they've just had

an interaction that was pretty rosy. And it feels like they're okay. And he slaps him on the back like, thanks, pal. And Brendan Gleeson slaps the fucking shit out of him. And the movie is continuously doing that to the audience. It's continuously making the audience think that something is okay or that there's an actual moment of joy and then it just knocks the shit out of you and reminds you this sucks this guy's life sucks right and it makes that point very well. It's not without artistic merit.

It's incredibly well made as it would be. You know what it kind of reminds me of? So Adam McKay makes his dramatic turn. It goes from, the first one was the big short, right? And then after the big short, there's Vice. Now I go into Vice and I'm very excited about it because if there's anybody in the world who you can make a compelling biopic on especially with the right point of view it's dick cheney and when

i left vice i was like not quite good like like good i was in a very similar place like when i good performances yeah there's a kind of energy to the movie. Sort of similar to this movie where I'm like, I get your point. Yeah. I'm not sure that that made it a good movie. I'm not sure it made it strong enough to have spent all this time and effort on it. Yeah. I'm like, not quite. Like, not quite.

And when a director that's been not bottled up doing comedy or has done comedy for a long time, they're going to take a chance like this. And when they take this chance, they normally, there's always one to me like this that's a little wonky that just doesn't feel like it's for the movie goer at all or that the story reconciles itself like at all. And this one kind of seemed like a dissertation or a lecture to the audience more than it did actually a film. I agree. It's funny that you bring up Adam McKay. I'm kind of a don't look up

defender. I didn't hate it. Kind of a defender. I think it's actually comedy is its weakest parts and the best part about it, especially in like sort of the final five to 10 minutes, is that it's real point is like, hey, like live inside your own life. Like appreciate what we have.

Don't take the world at large for granted. And don't take these relationships that we have for granted. It's a bit saccharine, but whatever at the time of my life when I saw it, I was like, this is real shit. This is making me feel good. This movie doesn't have any of that.

This movie doesn't have that turn. It just has this moribund sadness. It just has this incredible violence with no resolution, with no feeling beyond. Yeah, you're going to get kicked in the teeth. You're going to get stabbed. You're going to get blown up. You're going to get broken up with.

You're going to get mocked. And you're going get stabbed you know you're gonna get blown up you know you're gonna get broken up with you're gonna get mocked and you're gonna be by yourself yeah i i the joker thing is tripping me up a little bit though because as i thought about like the history of what i'll call like a fuck you movie like filmmakers make fuck you movies where they're mad at the world or they feel another artist has represented their view and that that kind of anger is right like recommend for a Dream is a fuck you movie. Really? That's a movie that's like, addiction is an evil

that can destroy everything. And let me show you it's destruction. You know what I mean? But don't you feel like in that particular, and I get it, but don't you feel like

in that particular movie, it takes something that we all understand. We've all known someone who's dealt with addiction we all know someone who's um who's been in a situation that they can't get out of and watching a descent into madness like that or watching a snapshot in the madness of someone it leaves you looking at the world in a different or a more sober way.

You come away with something, is what I'm saying. When you watch Requiem for a Dream, you don't think so. Well, to me, you come away with the extremity of the filmmaking and a couple of the images that he chooses to show you. Like, what happens to Jennifer Connelly's character? What happens to Ellen Burstyn's character? The epic tragedy of that movie feels

somewhat similar to this movie I think record regime is a quote-unquote better film it's a movie that I think is more accomplished but at the end of it this is also true of like Lars

von Trier's Antichrist or even even something as commercial as seven where when you get to the end of seven and you're like well what have we learned here I think it's an incredible thriller it's an incredible thriller.

It's literally one of my favorite movies of all time. But when we're looking at like huge themes, morality is a huge theme of Seven. Procedure is too. That makes the movie more interesting to me. There's more to hold on to. Like the way that we do the work that we do

and how it intersects with our own morality. That's a cool idea. These movies, though, these kind of bottomless pits of frustrated morality, they're tough, man. They're really hard to make successful. They are.

With Seven, what you have to me in the entire movie is a push-pull between a guy who's seen it all and a guy who thinks he wants to see it. And he's told over and over and over a guy who thinks he wants to see it and he's told over and over and over again you don't want to see it you don't want to see how bad it gets and he's saying nope i came here because i want to do it but and he's he's being told he's like i'm leaving

because you don't want to see how bad it gets and for the whole movie you're wondering can this motherfucker actually deal with how bad it can get then you see that he can't right and so there is something that you take away from that you go well you know i'm pretty good in the suburbs like like you you know what i don't want to i don't want to see how bad it gets. I don't want to see, like, what could happen. With this one, it's like, okay, you know, we haven't talked about Lady Gaga. That was going to be my kind of conclusive note of this conversation. there's nothing to me that anchors the movie in that way to where i can have the eureka moment or where i can go oh this guy finally got to it it's connected in new york tough watch right but there's a very deep existential like almost i'll never watch a second of the movie again point. Even the emptiness

that you feel with that movie is more nutritious than the emptiness that you feel with this. I just think that the ideas and themes of that movie are way deeper, like about the performance of life. I get it. And, you know, like how you go through the motions and what you long for versus what you should have. Like, that's a movie that, but I hear what you're saying, which is that

when you get to the end of a movie like that, you feel scooped out. Yeah, and you, but you feel like wow it it feels worth it yes it's hard one conclusion of the film oh yeah i mean that's not we're not we don't talk about it yeah i'm not seeing snacks key new york you should see it it's a very good movie just make sure that you're in a good time yeah in your life yeah be in a gurney when you watch it yeah i just don't don't like you know watch it on vacation don't do that well no no i'm saying watch it watch it when you can go jet ski after and like because if you don't like i'm like i saw that movie like when it movie sent me into a little bit of a spiral i'm like well what the fuck we should do top five post-screening jet ski movies you know like that's a really good idea i wish i thought of that for this episode yeah because it's like that that's a that's one um anyway so

lady gaga um well you'd mentioned that you were a big fan of hers i would say i'm a fan too i love stars born the the bradley cooper remake i, I guess, reasonably a fan of her music. There's nothing about it that I don't like, but I don't follow it closely. I'm more interested in movies. Her movie career has been, I would say, up and down. It's been interesting. I'm not totally sure I understand why she wanted to do

this film. We know that she does like standards, you know, that she did perform with Tony Bennett, and that she's, you know, just genuinely an amazing singer. Performance-wise, it does ask her to kind of strip down in a way. You know, she's not really wearing a lot of makeup through much of this film. She's got this kind of streaked, bleach blonde hair. I'm sure that the opportunity to make a big movie across someone like Joaquin Phoenix is very exciting. And she gets a moment or two of big performance, but because of the otherwise restrained performance style

and the complete dourness and the fact that by the conclusion of the movie, she basically just disappears like a spirit. I couldn't really figure out what she was attracted to in the story. Bruh, i swear to god i'm thinking how'd they sell her on this it's very strange because you could have got sabrina carpenter you know what i mean you could you could have saved bread like it's like what like how i'm

really gonna picture that i'm trying to picture sabrina carpenter talking to joaquin phoenix at least lady gaga has gravitas well i'm just what i'm saying is like what what was it about this that they say okay we're gonna do the second one joker harley quinn musical and she went i'm in it feels like that right yeah but then because on paper it's a cool idea on paper it's a very cool idea but it just it wasn't a very uh competent use of her talents she is inconsequential to the movie in a way that when she just decides that she no longer has faith in him when when she walks out on him it doesn't feel like it matters that much it i guess i mean it the i agree i agree she doesn't really influence his decision making in a meaningful way.

At least at first she does, and then he changes his mind. And she sort of disappears from the center of the story. The other thing is that the character itself, we get competing ideas about what is true about her character. We hear from Catherine Keener that she knows the truth and that it's different than what Harley has told. And it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's never really resolved.

There's no clarity around it. She says, he calls her on it and she goes, yeah, well, I made it all up. She said I told some lies.

Yeah, it doesn't matter. We all lie sometimes. So, in general, she's not bad. No. And I'm sure she will get

a lot more people to go see this movie because she has such a strong fan base. I, it's weird. I actually, ultimately, I to go see this movie because she has such a strong fan base. I, it's weird. I actually, ultimately, I think I respect this movie,

but I don't like it. I respect that it really stuck to its guns, for lack of a better phrase. It really was like, guess what? We're going to give you a big, bold musical

starring Lady Gaga, but she's really never going to hit the Lady Gaga note that you want to hear her hit. That takes guts, you know? That takes a kind of

like stick-to-itiveness that is rare in especially like genre and IP filmmaking. And this is technically both of those things. It is. I agree. I think that I like that this movie was made, but I don't like this movie. Yeah.

This movie is the idea of what they've done with the Joker. It's important to us comic book fanboys for people to take this stuff and interpret it in different ways and put it out there

in different ways. All of this storytelling is so fundamental to me that having people that say, okay, I want to look at this in this way or I want to me that having people that say, okay, I want to look at this in this way, or I want to take it and translate it culturally in a different way. It's all very important.

They move the genre forward. Uh, I think it does a lot for expanding it to people who might be RC fart, seeing away or whatever. Um, at the end of the day, it's, and we would talk about this with some other films.

It's, it's well made not good movie a well made not good movie is kind of where

I think we both land on this yeah like well made not good movie I went to I went to Greece we went to Greece

we went to Santorini and real quick we went to Greece we went to Santorini incredible pivot a couple years ago Nick and I we went to Greece we went to Santorini and real quick we went to Greece we went to Santorini incredible pivot a couple years ago Nick and I

we went to Greece we went to Santorini how nice for you what's up Europe I feel like I'm never going back I'm having a little kid man I'm like will I ever return to Europe in my life

I don't know there's kids everywhere there were they born there you know are people bringing these children overseas they will bring in some of the kids

don't get me started on that because I got in trouble by talking about I think there should be a whole month in these vacation no kid month we're no kid month okay but so just august we're actually can't do august because kids are off from school yeah how about every may every may no kids okay i like it and it's a great take and then we we actually support nannies but i don't understand you're saying like to the other countries like can you travel to cities in america during no kid month it should be roving no kid oh i see so rolling situation yeah so we'll just remove all of the children from the states and countries no no no like

native children or okay indigenous children or okay you really you really are the goat indigenous children are okay um we walked by uh this fish house that was there we stopped we had a very simple meal of white fish from out of the sea so fresh so amazing so well seasoned and different things best bread best wine from this little place that was like right outside the hotel um then as the concierge at the hotel and the people there were telling us uh where we should go they said this restaurant right here is not only the best restaurant in Santorini it is the best restaurant maybe in the world and i can't remember the name of it right it like you get there and there's a whole tasting menu with a story on it and bring that bring you the best

wine it's the whole deal i got sick because you ate too much or because the food wasn't good because i just didn't agree with me okay so there is no doubt about the fact that from an artistic and culinary perspective, the restaurant that was doing all of that and had that much to say is a better restaurant than the fish house where I had some of the best fish outside of my time growing up in South Louisiana, where you're going to get the best seafood maybe in the world um but this other restaurant it just didn't agree with me it just it just i it just the wine was was all of that i just ate it and i'm like it didn't agree with the joker didn't agree with me you're you're making a point that segues so beautifully into what i want to talk to you about and i feel like you are the best person to talk to about this and you said let's talk about it i i shared some thoughts on

twitter over the weekend about the state of movies which is always a huge mistake but it's something for whatever reason i could i could not resist the urge to share these feelings that i was having in a down moment so i shared them and i think that this movie and the experience of this movie is an interesting kind of litmus test. Another thing that had me thinking about these thoughts was recently you and Joanna Robinson did an episode of Ringerverse about The Last Jedi. And about the sort of long, ongoing debate. And I think that The Last Jedi is kind of like, if not patient zero, one of the signature movies that has defined roughly like the internet history of movie discussion. I'm a participant in this.

I host a movie podcast, have a lot of opinions about movies, talk about them every day. But this year, I've been feeling like the typical kind of rage baiting and extrapolation of ideas and the hyperbole around movies in either direction is like getting way louder and way noisier and

there's been a handful of movies that I've seen that I felt like it has really become like I've been under the microscope with this you know I said like Civil War long legs trap the substance which

I know you haven't seen but you're going to see soon Megalopolis being the most recent example of this. I don't know that Joker folia do will fall into this category, but it could in part because you're going to have a lot of people going into the movie with a certain level of expectation and they're going to come out having realized that the joke was on them. And so I've been thinking about this and I'm like, what I don't want to do is try to indicate

to people, you know, some sort of bullshit bromide about why can't we all just get along? That's not really what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to say, like, we need a more civil discourse in our movie culture. That's like, that's phony. And I know better. And frankly, that doesn't trust you anymore because of your opinion on Trap, which I said was a deeply flawed but fun movie that I liked. And the kind of anger that is being provoked

because of mediocrity or complexity in a movie, I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. Now you, I would say, honestly, play in the sandbox much more frequently because you cover IP so closely. You cover Marvel so closely. You cover Star Wars so closely. These are like hotly contested areas.

And I think one of the reasons why this level of intensity in the conversation about movies has seeped into like Civil War and Trap is a lot of the like learned behaviors of the IP world. Right. You know, like what I call like a religiosity around IP. Certainly, yeah. And some of it is just like you're online. If you just like call somebody a dick online, then you're going to get whatever, more karma. And that's better than just being like,

well, I have a nuanced opinion of this complex idea and I'd like to share it with you in a thoughtful way. Like obviously that's not how our culture works. I know that. But I'm trying to figure out how I feel about it. I'm trying to figure out what happened. Like I'm trying to also not catastrophize and overstate things. Interesting.

What was the most tense moment we ever had? Do you remember? Yeah, I remember this very well. We never talked about it publicly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was before Creed in Philadelphia. Yeah. So before the live rewatchables.

See, I think back on this fondly too. I do too yeah but we it was before the show we're in the green room and we were about to do Creed and

we got into a a discussion about Killers of the Flower Moon it's failure quote unquote failure at the box office Martin Scorsese's comments on Marvel over the years

right and then also maybe like movie cultures complicated relationship between Scorsese's comments on Marvel over the years. Right. And then also maybe like movie cultures, complicated relationship between Scorsese and comic book movies and everything else. And we were both pretty heated.

It got to a point to where I feel like we're all in the green room before we're going out to Creed. And it got to a point to where I actually felt like the other people in the room started to get uncomfortable.

They were uncomfortable. Bill was uncomfortable. Chris was uncomfortable. But I think actually deep down you and I were like, this is cool. It's all uncomfortable. They were uncomfortable. Bill was uncomfortable. Chris was uncomfortable. But I think actually deep down, you and I were like, this is cool. It's all good. This is what we do. Yes. Right?

And I think that is indicative of the conversation because I'm playing for my team there. I'm playing for my team, which is Martin Scorsese, for some reason, is kicking my stuff in the ass every time that he gets a gets in front of a mic and then he puts out killers of the flower moon and i went into the movie looking for reasons not to like right right right right and then and then i reveled in the fact that the movie either didn't get any awards or underperformed at the box office when the point of that movie if we if we if we talk about all of these films it really wasn't he had a blank check from Apple, which Apple was writing. A lot of those.

A lot of blank checks. He had a blank check for Apple to do whatever he wanted, and he did what the fuck he wanted to do. And in that is the success of the movie. The movie can't be bad, right? It's him,onardo dicaprio when we were having this first of all shout out to you for just being just a good a good soul because you knew that that was my point and i knew what your point was and i also love avengers infinity war yeah so it's like ultimately the nuance when you're a person that is face to face with another person is like we can fight and it'll

be fine it'll be funny um and we you everyone kind of secretly knows the truth you know that everything is ultimately in the middle right and but but we feel the need to be like entrenched in our opinion this is the issue the issue is these conversations and i don't want to oversimplify it what the radicalization of opinions online is doing is divorcing us from our ability to be in good faith. But do you feel like a bad actor in that equation? A little bit. I think I am too. A little bit.

So what am I talking about? Of course I am. And that's why it's important. That's why Charles is important to the Midnight Boys. Right? Yeah. I feel similarly about Amanda on this show. That's why Charles is important to the Midnight Boys, right? Yeah. That's why I think, feel similarly about Amanda on this show. That's why Charles is important to the Midnight Boys.

That's why even if Chuck devolves into bad faith, sometimes it's important to round out these conversations to where you get good faith out of a diversity of opinions and approaches, right? It's, it's important to have that because a lot of times now we're shoved into corners. I used to watch a movie, especially when there was no conversation around a film, right? I used to watch a movie and like the movie or dislike the movie for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes you like a film because of the moment in your life that you come to it. Sometimes you like, they're really big stories

that are talking to one person and then they're really small stories that are talking to everyone. At the end of The Karate Kid, which is essentially about a fucking kid in the valley getting bullied so he learns to do karate. That's all the movie is about.

Great idea for a movie. Great idea for a movie. Long Island's Ralph Macchio, thank you. Right, and he has an old wise man. It's a very, and then at the end of it, he crane kicks the guy. And you fucking feel like, why do I feel, why do I fucking care this much? And they can tell that same bitch over and over and over again. Then you have Megalopolis, which is a grand movie that's really trying to talk to everybody individually

and it kind of doesn't get there but you come to the movie for different reasons different times in your life and it affects you in a different way and because of the need for groupthink

and team dynamics we're losing the ability to like actually lean into that to actually like have an individual feeling or thought about the movie this is just hey for whatever reason i have fun what if you like m. night Shyamalan's um brand of storytelling i do you like it i just do you just like the way he does his doesn't mean i think his movies are perfect no doesn't mean some of his movies aren't

bad what's that what. What's that show that comes on Netflix with Tim Anderson? You guys never saw this? I think you should leave. Have you ever watched that show? Tim Robbins. Tim Robbins, excuse me.

Tim Robinson. I think you should leave. Have you ever seen that? Okay, I think it's fucking hysterical. Me too. Like legitimately, I think it's fucking hysterical.

I've had my brother watch it. I've had Kalika watch it. I've had my brother watch it. I've had Kalika watch it. I've had my mother watch it. I've had so many people watch it and they go, man, yo, what's wrong with you? Are you okay? Like, it doesn't, it's, we don't have, the internet, which should be this place

where we all express our individuality, it breeds this toxic sameness that chokes conversation. And to me, that's, i don't want to be more i'm not old man shouting at cloud bemoaning the internet yo you went to trapped you fucked with it you like how he tells stories the worst movie to him that he makes the most room to you that he makes is only going to be so bad i feel that way about the russo brothers like like you're pro gray man wouldn't go that far okay okay that's pretty bad see to me if you like it's not super bad it's not super bad it was fun if i don't went to the theater to see gray man i probably would have been fucked i think

there is a differentiation and it's it's honestly middling it's not a huge difference but i've always understood and in some ways empathize for your happiness around a comic book story like a comic book movie where even when we talked about the flash last year which i thought was just like abysmal and had me using the hyperbole i was i was i i i culted myself into the flash though i apologize it's a but it's okay because you were like there's a part of me that is so connected to these stories that I love it. And I don't, you know, it makes you want to find excuses for it because it's something you care about. That's actually different to me than the Russo brothers.

The Russo brothers were tools inside of a machine. The same way that like people who work for Martin Scorsese are tools inside of the Martin Scorsese machine. And there's a kind of differentiation there. That's a relatively new concept. But we also know now that that's not easy. Which part? The Russo brothers. It's not easy for them to make competent films.

They achieved inside that machine. Yeah, out of that stuff. Not to cut you off. No, no, no. But it's all relatively new, just like the internet is relatively new. I don't think conversations about how the internet works are usually very helpful.

No. But I do feel like we're in a place of we can never go back we can never go back to that moment and i feel like when we're on the rewatchable together we always talk about like seeing a movie in 1991 or whatever and we're like wow i was changed forever and like i don't even know if i had anybody to talk to about it and that was weirdly energizing you know like i look back on it now and i'm like how to be unaffected to be uninformed was powerful it was and now it's the opposite where with megalopolis not only is the movie 45 years in the making but the discourse is like five years in the making and the movie premieres at a festival and then whether or not it's going to get distribution and what was the screening like for the executives the fact that those things are in our head when we sit down and watch the movie,

it's just a fact of life. It's like, it actually means it's like a new art form. It's not the same art form it was 50 years ago or a hundred years ago because of all of the other inputs that we have when we evaluate these things. And because it's such a huge part of my life and my professional life now,

I'm constantly evaluating like, should we even be reviewing movies the way that we review them, the way that Pauline Kael reviewed them? Part of the idea of this show is it's a conversation. It's not a review. It's not criticism. It's a conversation about how we felt

and how we felt including all of those inputs. But the thing that I was flagging here was, man, people seem fucking mad right now. And it's an election year. Twitter's awful now. Reddit is crazy. And the wildest shit tends to get like, you know, the highest approval. So I understand that the metrics have evolved or devolved no matter how you see it, but something feels off in the conversation. And I don't know if it'll ever swing back or if it'll ever swing back

or if there ever was a back. Maybe there never was. Well, first of all, there have to be people who are brave enough to like and dislike things. That's the first thing, right? Agree. You have to be brave enough to like and dislike things.

All right. And also, you have to be pliable. I think it's important for the people that are tip of the spear in all these conversations to understand what it means to have really honest, unvarnished conversations

about, about things that they might have liked or disliked, right? It's okay if you like it, it's okay if you dislike it, right? Some of these things

are cultural and the culture wars are affecting all of this stuff. One thing about Megalopolis is like, there are people who don't want to see Shia LaBeouf in the movie.

There are people who don't want to see Jon Voight in the movie. There's stories about Francis's conduct on set. Then the movie itself starts to be a litmus test for whether or not you're a good person, even if you just fucking go to the movie. That's a great point. Even if you just fucking sit down and watch it, right? Like, why are you watching it?

Why are you supporting this? Why are you supporting that? These are things we did not have to consider before. The Joker was one of those things. Joker became a movie to where if you said, I was all right, then you were fucking an incel. And I'm like, what? I've seen this movie before. They did this in Taxi Driver. They did this in Falling Down. White Dude Goes Crazy and Starts Fucking Shit Up is not an unfamiliar film. Every generation has its film of some character reacting to the dysfunction in society. It just is what it is. You can read The Matrix like that. You definitely can read The Matrix like that, right? And and to me i think the importance of us and if what we do

is important is that we just got to be honest about the way we feel about shit it's so hard though i'll give you an example of the nuance here this is my own creation and my own mistake but like we're so back as a joke as a bit as an ongoing thing in the movie culture in all culture yeah it's always uttered with a sly or not so sly smile but it becomes transmogrified into you're a cheerleader you only want to puff something up or not understanding what i hope is the nuance of a joke that like the consistent destruction of movie going and movie discourse is kind of a theme thematic of the show. But like, it's my fault.

You know what I mean? And was I like engagement farming by doing more so back bits on the show? I guess. So where's the line between fun and bad faith? There's no line. Sometimes it's just fun. And something else that people have to understand about filmmakers.

You've talked to a lot of filmmakers, right? Yeah, hundreds. Filmmakers tell stories. This is going to sound stupid. Filmmakers tell stories in different ways. But let me tell you what I mean by this. It sounds very simplistic. I was talking to somebody who makes huge films, gigantic films.

And I was talking to them about their relationship with somebody very important in their life. And they were talking about the relationship in such an intimate way that I was like, hey man, you should make that movie. And he told me if I made it, it wouldn't come out in the way that you think it would. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, if I made that you think it would and i was like what do you mean he's like

if i made that story it would be star wars it would be that it would be grounded it wouldn't be a small character study three three people in the movie why did they say that because that's not their sensibility oh i see their sensibility is the big popcorn. That's the type of stories that they tell. And even if they were going to tell a story about fathers and sons, it would be Star Wars. That's how it would come out. It would come out,

Luke, I am your father. And then the relationship between with all of this other stuff happening. It wouldn't be this boy's life. It wouldn't be he got game. It wouldn't be uh this boy's life it wouldn't be he got game it wouldn't be the smaller that's just not the way they tell story that's not the way they see movies so a lot of movies that you're looking at are these people who have this idea that goes you know what i want to tell a story about uh this abusive aunt that i had or this whatever thing that i had and then it becomes

this david chase wants to tell a story about him and his mother and it gets wrapped in all it is mafioso type of stuff and it becomes the sopranos and when we start trying to uh litigate everything online about whether or not something is purely good purely bad purely up purely down we're also kind of creatively neutering a lot of people who fundamentally look at story in a couple of different ways like it denise wants to tell a movie and he don't want nobody to talk. The dialogue is overrated. What? Aaron Sorkin wants to tell a movie and all they fucking do is talk. But so you put your finger on something that I think is important.

And maybe this is sort of like a conclusive aspect of this conversation. What we're talking about is intention. Intention for me does matter when it comes to looking at something. It's not always the most important thing. Sometimes it's the least important thing, but I do want to understand it when I look at a piece of work.

I want to understand. And if their intention is no intention, if it's free expression, I respect that too. But one of the reasons why I have directors on the show or writers on the show or even actors on the show sometimes it's because i want to know their intentions i want to understand

what they were trying to get up to and i want to understand if they weren't able to achieve something why they weren't able to achieve something or i want to understand specifically what you're talking about and what you just described is exactly exactly why i love horror movies fantasy comic book movies, action movies, is using genre as a portal to telling those kinds of stories, those kinds of ideas. But some people don't agree.

Some people are like, fuck your intentions. Did you make a good movie? I mean, I get that. And that's all they care about. And so you get into this slipstream of like, why can't you just tell me this movie sucks?

People are just like, yo, Megalopolis fucking sucks. But what is good, though? Is good an Oreo cookie? Or is good a filet mignon steak? Mona Lisa. Yeah, like what is good? It's good because- There is no good.

Yeah, of course. Right, it's good because it tastes good or it's good because it's nutritious. But like, what's good? And then good changes. I, bro, I used to eat burgers from all over the place. I came to LA and they started putting,

they started baking their own buns and doing all kinds of stuff. You can't give me one of them cheap burgers no more. Are you hungry? You keep,

you keep circling back to the food metaphor. I'm just saying, you can't give me those cheap burgers no more. Like, it's, my idea of good

has changed. Yeah. Yeah. And so, because you're bougie now. Yeah. I mean my idea of good has changed. Yeah, yeah. And so, Because you're bougie now. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Shit fucking changed. Yeah. Okay. That's how I feel about movies. I'm like, I've seen them all now. Right. I'm bougie now.

And, and, and I would say that, just the last thing I'll say is, I'll say that it's important for people, in my opinion,

who love movies to have elastic minds when it comes to movies. Agree. I'm not trying to watch that boring shit. What's that boring shit? We judge people, right?

If I show you the Big Lebowski and you say you don't like it, there's a part of me that goes, We're not boys. Yeah. We'll never truly understand each other. Yeah, like, there's a part of me that goes, so you mean you. Yeah. Yeah. We'll never truly understand each other. Yeah,

like, there's a part of me that goes, so you mean you tell me you watch this shit and it's just not funny? All right. Okay. Well, you're dumb.

But do you say that to your mom about Tim Robinson? Uh, no. And I'll tell you why. There's a cutoff for this. Also, the Tim Robinson thing

is just so out there. That's extreme. Yeah. There's also a cutoff for this for this because she she's it's not just that she doesn't like him he ain't well that in a way that's the flip side of the laughter i like that there's one sketch where it's him and ao and she's just asking him to breathe yeah breathe breathe and it's so funny to me she's like why wouldn't you breathe when he's in the VR

it's hysterical my mother's going and my mother's going son why are we looking at this turn this off and her disdain for it

is making it funnier to me so anyway I think it's as long as people are willing to have the conversation I get told to fuck off on the internet 50 times a day. And it's by people who like me.

This is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about this is because you have no fear. Yeah. In fact, you seek it out. But that was also like, that's also a byproduct of like TMZ. For sure. Oh, yeah. So you're on TMZ and you say something on TMZ. For sure. Oh, yeah. So you're on TMZ and you say something on TMZ and then you like, I used to have people

coming to the tour bus wanting to talk to me about things that I said on TMZ and I'm like, dog, I just got used to it. Yeah, yeah.

I got used to it and that's not to say that it's good. It's like, I'm battle tested. But you also know the levers to pull. I watch you pull levers

every day on the internet. I incite people. This is impressive. You got skills. But you also know the levers to pull. I watch you pull levers every day on the internet. I incite people. And I'm like, this is impressive. You got skills. But that's also for me to continue to build calluses.

And these conversations aren't, like the big picture is a conversation about movies with a cultural critic who people really care about like what it is

that they say. Yeah, and then there's me. Oh, shut up. There's the cultural critic. Yeah, but like people really care about what they say. Yeah. And then there's me. Oh, shut up. There's the cultural critic. Yeah. But, but, but like it, people really care about what they say. Like when I was growing up, I would watch Siskel and Ebert.

Um, and I would really care what they thought. Me too. They could get me to go out and see a movie. And it's kind of a different thing than the guy who deeply loves things and just wants to have fun. You've reminded me of one last strain of this too. I could talk about this forever because it's obviously like my life's work. I'm so interested in it. But one of the reasons why it's my life's work, I think, is because Siskel and Ebert is a factor in this. And also I always

cite Howard Stern and Mike and the Mad Dog as factors in this, which is that all three of those kind of media entities, which I was raised on, encouraged you to disagree. Right. In fact, it was trying to get you to have a reaction to what was being said. I just watched a segment of Siskel and Ebert for a movie that I won't spoil because we're doing it on the show soon.

But Siskel was just so wrong about this movie that I couldn't believe it. But my reaction of like, God, he's so wrong, completely defies this entire conversation we've had where I'm like, there's nuance. And he didn't understand this kind of storytelling. And these kinds of movies didn't really ever make sense to him.

And so of course he approached it from the wrong perspective. But there's this powerful primal energy that just saying something out loud gets people to do. And I guess it continues on forever. It does. It does. But that's why we have jobs, bro.

That's right. I won't say anything else to jinx it. Van Leethan, you are the best. Thank you so much. Thanks for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Let's go now to my conversation with Greg Jarden. Say hello to Tim Selects, We'll be right back. Terms apply. Prices may vary at participating restaurants in Canada. It's time for Tim's. I'm here with Greg Jarden.

His feature film debut, It's What's Inside, is now on Netflix. I'm excited to talk to you because even though we've met before, I don't know very much about you. And I want to hear about your journey. Sure. I'm happy to talk about whatever you'd like to hear. Well, whenever I'm talking to a first-time filmmaker, I always like to ask them, what were the movies that you saw as a kid

that made you think you could or should make movies? Do you have an answer to that question? I do, I do. The first one was Batman, Tim Burton's Batman. But at that point, I didn't understand what a director did until I got into undergrad. I just didn't have the, like, I had no idea.

The first probably director's name that i that stood out to me as a celebrity was probably like spike lee because the whole spike lee joint thing sure um but i remember seeing batman and being like i don't know who's responsible or like i don't know like who's responsible for this tone or this world but i love it and whoever did it uh you know like you know i want, you know, I want to, you know, I want to be a part of this world and, and like, it would be awesome to do something like this.

And then, so that natural born killers was another one where I was like, this is, I've never, you know, like, I don't know why this movie feels the way it does. Um,

again, at this point I had no, like, I didn't know, I had no concept of what film editing was at this point. I know how movies were shot. Uh, and then kids, Larry Clark's Kids, that was probably my first verite experience

where I was like, this is so different than anything I've seen. And that one, for some reason, just triggered. I was a little older when I saw that, and I was like, oh, movies can be like this? So those three were sort of just in terms of leaving an impression on me a little older when I saw that and I was like oh like movies can be like this like um so those three were sort of just like in terms of leaving an impression on me in terms of like uh what movies could be and what filmmakers could do I guess were like the first three it's funny that

you say that we were just talking on the show about how I think for a generation of millennials Tim Burton explained a tour theory you, that because his movies looked so different from other filmmakers' movies, especially standard Hollywood movies, that it allowed you to understand that there was someone behind the wheel of the car, that there was someone who was driving tone and style and all these different things.

But so when you figured out when you got to undergrad, was the intention to always be a film director? Was that your goal? So in undergrad, I was majoring in computer science originally. And then I found out that they had a film major. And that was what really, and you know, like at that point, then I'm really getting it. Like this was like Pulp Fiction, Trainspotting era, right? So like everyone was like super hyped on those, especially in college.

So I studied, I double majored in computer science and film, but the film program that I was at was like more really like film theory. So I did that. I moved to New York and I worked as a PA for a little while. And then I basically went to grad school at Florida State University because at that point I was like, I want to learn how to, like I had zero technical or not zero, but maybe 10% technical understanding of cameras, equipment, such and such. So I went there for two years, made a thesis film, came out here with the thesis film that initially that kind of got me a representation.

And I kind of got started and I'm trying to make a movie ever since then, which was 2006. I'm curious about that. So that's 18 years that you've been in Los Angeles and you've been trying to get a film off the ground. Now what's happening to you right now, which is you had a big premiere at Sundance. The film got acquired by the biggest entertainment company on the planet. Millions and millions of people are going to see your movie. But everyone thinks you're like a wunderkind and you've got this long stretch of time so like what happens in that time between making this movie and getting out here great question i don't know how it's been that long even in here and you say 18 years i'm like oh my god um i mean basically

when i got out here i had this thesis film from fsu it's called the problem with fire optics back in those days it was like people were passing around like DVDs. So the DVDs got passed around to agents. I got, you know, representation. I also got representation for music videos. And, you know, I was trying to get this other sci-fi. I wrote this sci-fi comedy, you know, sort of in the vein of It's What's Inside, budgeted around like six to ten mil, and I bounced around over the course of like 10 years with a bunch of different producers that were trying to help me get it made. Basically, we needed an A-list, like A-list actors to come in, which I found through that process was very difficult for a first-time guy at a film school

who knows sort of trying to get 10 million. was very hard so like around 2015 I was like pretty beaten down at this point I had done a bunch of music videos and like shorts and stuff um are you supporting yourself with that work are you doing other jobs I'm supporting myself by working at like uh marketing agencies uh specifically like entertainment marketing agencies so like before like I had a design I had a background of graphic design so i was essentially making like websites and banners for movies and stuff and then i and then end up doing like after effects stuff for movies like for instagram posts and stuff that was like my day job um and then when i would get a music video i would basically just take off from work and then edit it at night on the weekends,

that sort of thing. Um, in 2015, I was like, man, like, like maybe this just isn't going to work out. And I was like, I should write like a one location movie that I can make for as little money as humanly possible. Cause this $10 million thing is crazy. Uh, so, so that, that was, so I essentially just gave myself the like the constraints of you know one location one night do something genre sci-fi because that's you know like i love that stuff um so that so i i essentially outlined i like ideated on it outlined it and then started writing the script in 2016 probably finished the script in 2017 as i'm doing all this uh i start getting you know i'm like working in marketing agencies i'm kind of doing after effects stuff i'm like teaching myself visual effects uh i start getting jobs directing

like these netflix promos for like netflix tv shows which um initially like the first one i did was for the show glow um they basically just just asked me to come in and like shoot this stuff with the cast on the set. It was really cool. Um, kind of a lot of like small social stuff, but I was like, I was, I was kind of blown away that we had access to the cast and to the set and like all this stuff and the show runners were involved. I did a few of these and then I was like, Hey, like, you know, I'm saying Netflix is

spending some insane amount of money in this promo it's like half a million bucks um like just on essentially bespoke promos so i was like hey you know you're spending this kind of money like we could do like one big one instead of like a bunch of small ones um so uh i started um yeah like like the first big one i did was for 13 reasons why and we kind of did this like 60 second long thing. We like built sets. We had the cast. And that was kind of the first thing that went out to announce the arrival of season two. So myself with Netflix would sort of shoot this independent stuff.

It's almost like a music video with the cast. That's like the thing that goes out before the trailer. And then I was basically doing that for whatever, like six to eight years um and i would handle the post too so like my my pitch as a director was i was like i'll come i'll pitch the concept i'll direct it i'll edit it do do it do the vfx one-stop shop so that essentially i'm i'm like very grateful for that work because that essentially nest egged me all through like it's what's Inside and the editing of It's What's Inside. Well, really up until now. And so you're working, were you working independently just for yourself at that time?

Were you working for an agency or anything like that? Eventually, I just started freelancing. Okay. Like once I developed relationships with people at Netflix, yeah, I just started like freelancing. But it initially happened because I was working with agencies and agencies would hire me. Okay. So, yeah. This is all kind of interesting to me.

Obviously, not just because your film is now a Netflix film, but because of this kind of twinned trajectory where you're working towards this thing that a lot of people who come on the show who want to make movies, you know, they follow their path where they go to grad school, they make their thesis, they show it around town, they get their representation. And then some people get a movie, most people don't. And then this other thing where you sort of like learn about what contemporary entertainment is in a way, and it's not the way that it was when you were seeing Batman or Natural Born Killers anymore either. So you like understand maybe what a Netflix audience likes, how to sell something,

you know, how to create something that has a kind of like kinetic momentum for viewers. Like, were you conscious of the tools that you were acquiring when you were doing all of this work? You know, it's funny, like at the time you're just like upset that you're not where you want to be kind of. So it's like, I've been trying to make a movie and now I'm like learning After Effects or whatever. But certainly when it got time to shoot, it's what's inside. I was very like like grateful that I had essentially all like, you know, all the the directorial history that I'd had just because, you know, I was much more confident, I think, than I would have been fresh out of film school and just that I had such an understanding of the post-workflow because I now very much shoot with the edit in mind. So I am now grateful that that journey has happened. That dovetails very elegantly with this movie

and a lot of the ways in which you worked on making this movie. So I'm curious about where the idea came from because it's obviously just a tremendously fun movie with a really fun core idea. It's a little hard to explain, but I'm hoping you have your way of... I've been told that. Yeah.

Not in a bad way. But how did it come to you? How did the idea come to you? So really, like I said, I gave myself that mandate of like eight people at a party and I was like, one guy should have a suitcase. And then, and there should be something and whatever like like the suitcase is the inciting incident basically and so i ideated on like a bunch of different things um i had just played the game the game werewolf aka mafia for the first time at my friend's

birthday party and it got like super heated and super intense and like you know i'm like you know felt like the stakes were so high and i was like oh like you know so like i like the mechanics of like the suitcase somehow like like uh being the impetus for like a party game because this werewolf experience um i came up with the multiple body swap idea kind of early on but i was a little ho-hum on it until I essentially came up with, without getting into, are we getting into spoilers now or no? I do want to, but let's wait a little bit.

So without getting into spoilers then, it was the first sort of big plot turn that happens with the body swap that got me really excited about proceeding ahead. Okay. So I ideated on like what could be in the suitcase for a solid six months. Spent, so I, I did it on, on like what, what could be in the suitcase for a solid six months, spend another six months just outlining it.

Uh, but, but I outlined it very, like very detailed, like, you know, like this is the scene. This scene should be two pages,

this scene, this scene, this scene. And then once I had that and I show that to friends. And then once I had that, I actually wrote the script. I have a theory about this movie. Okay.

Oh, great. Which is that it could never have been made at a studio or at a streamer because it does something that most contemporary movies don't allow you to do, which is you can't look at your phone while you're watching this movie.

You have to pay attention at all times. Otherwise you'll be lost. And if you get lost, that's bad. And I have a sub-theory that a lot of movies today are being made with the expectation that people will be looking at their phone that's so sad you don't have to necessarily speak to that specifically but I've seen

the movie twice now and both times I was like wow I am engaged like you have to be engaged was there do you have a consciousness about that because of the kind of serpentine nature of the storytelling I definitely didn't think I mean look when we shot this movie I had no I mean you know we made this movie independently uh when we're making i'm like i hope anybody buys this right it's like like you know it's like i hope we just break even so in the

future i can be like hey man like made a movie and it did not lose money and now i can send it to my family on whatever uh you know streaming service uh but you know it was really just um i guess i just made like a movie that that i would want to see and it had like elements uh i call the tone of the movie anxiety chic uh i'm you know i'm i'm an anxious guy shelby our main character is an anxious person and so whole thing was just like let's just make it um feel the uh the way she feels and then it was just kind of going through and make it feel the way she feels. And then it was just kind of going through and it's like, how can I make every scene,

I guess, pop as much as possible, i.e. just not feel like you're just waiting for the next scene to come. You know, like when you're watching a movie and you're like, oh, this is just an exposition dump. I just try to go through and like, what can I do as a filmmaker to just, you know, to make this exposition dump? For instance, like there's a backstory about Forbes, black and white photo

sequences, really all this exposition. It's like, what can I do to make that the exposition very fun and engaging and dynamic and not just feel like here's the information you have to know before the movie kind of gets going. It also feels like a movie that I assume you could not have made 10 years ago just because of the level of technical artistry that goes into making a movie like this. Like you said, learning after effects, for example, there's notably a edited by and visual effects by credit that you have on the movie. So it feels like you've brought a creativity that is like physically executed into the movie as well, which is not something that you usually see from a director. Like what was it?

Was that just because it would make the movie cheaper? Was it something you wanted to be doing? Like, why did you decide to do that work? Yeah, well, it was so I initially started doing my own post, particularly my own VFX, because, you know, you start doing music videos. My first music video was like $4,000 budget. Right. And it's like at that point, all the money goes mean everyone's working for free all the money is quote unquote on screen and then so if you need any visual effects it's like man this one visual effect we

need is like literally more than the budget for the whole video so i guess i'll just watch some after effects tutorials and just figure it out so initially it it just came out of yeah out of like fiscal necessity from doing low-bud stuff. By the time we got to It's What's Inside, it was like, okay, like I do really enjoy the editing process, especially when, you know, you're like, you come up with an idea in the shower, X amount of, you know, months later, now people are helping you make it, X amount of months later, now you're like in front of the computer and you can, and, you know, it's very gratifying and just fun you know um visual

effects not so much uh i've heard that from some of the people i work with here yeah yeah i mean i i i'm super glad that that i was able to do it and so so that was more of a fiscal um look i'll just handle the vfx because if didn't, the budget would probably double. So, yeah, you know, we'll see what happens in the future. I'm hoping to do less on-hand visual effects work moving forward, but we'll see what happens. Understood. Understood. What was it like pitching the movie to get it financed?

Oh, man, it was tough. I mean, yeah, so I started sending it out, yeah, in 2017. Basically, my agent, you know, sent it out to a bunch of producers. I was sending out, you know, like at this point, I'd met a bunch of people. I basically just sent out to anyone I knew who could even potentially remotely help. We got a handful of quote-unquote bites. People were interested, and then we would talk about it, and there would be like this excitement. But then for whatever reason, everything kind of f unquote bites. People are interested. And then we would talk about it and there'd be like this excitement, but then for whatever reason, everything kind of fizzled.

So it had a lot of fits and starts for years. We finally got it to. So one of our producers, Kate was working for this production company called Cat Smith. They did the child's play movie and the movie we had met. I gave her the scripts. She eventually starts working for Coleman Domingo's production company. She gives it to Coleman. Coleman had seen this Netflix thing that I did. And basically he then came on board as, as a producer. And then he connected us with our financiers, but like up to

that point, yeah, it was just sending it to people hearing and you know everyone was like man this script is like really confusing um so like like we're not even sure that this is going to translate you know this is there's multiple biosophics and you know like i make a lookbook and i'm like here are the sort of visual gags we're going to do to kind of like help the audience keep track where everyone's going to wear polaroids we're going to kind of do this red light well in the lookbook it was like this like red tinted glass thing but what became the red light thing but i i did get the constant note that it was very hard to follow i mean even my actors uh to this day were like yeah man that script was really hard to follow uh it is kind

of amazing that you got it made because on the one hand like when i'm watching the movie i was like this reminds me of like clue of heathers of inner space like there's a certain kind of like soft sci-fi comedy and i was expecting a horror movie and this is not really a horror movie no yeah p i i've the horror thing is where because yeah i think once we got into the midnight section of sunday it's just you know people like i guess what outlets were like oh it, it's a horror movie. I have never at any point referred to it as a horror movie. I was always calling it a sci-fi thriller with jokes. So it got in, and I was like, oh, man, people are going to be bummed.

I don't want people going with the expectation like a demon is going to jump out of the suitcase or whatever. Right, right. But certainly, my initial pitch was, yeah, it's like a genre mashup sci-fi thriller, but let's light it so it looks like a horror movie. So Argento Suspiria was massive visual influence. Yeah, that makes sense. You can see the deep reds and greens and blues all throughout the movie. The fast-mo moving logic is very

entertaining but it made me as i started to think about how you put it together made me feel like you must have written like a hundred drafts of this movie is it or did it all come together quickly in terms of the construction or did you have to like hammer through very specific permutations yeah i mean that that six months of outlining that was like really getting like the, the bones of it ready. And you know, it was like people have asked how I specifically figured it out. Like I,

I don't exactly remember. I mean, well, without getting into spoilers, you know, I knew that certain things were going to happen and I knew what the main characters relationship arc was going to be like, like I knew how it was going to start and end. Like the main character's relationship arc was going to be like i knew how it was going to start and end like i knew the first and last scene uh and i knew like

the like main turns but just sort of like getting all that stuff yeah like i i thought i had it tight in that first outline we ended up shooting draft 17 of the script um so yeah i certainly rewrote it a lot and And just hearing feedback from other people and then just sitting with it for years, you start to realize things that you can... I mean, like, if we hadn't shot it, I'm sure I would have done 10 more rewrites on it, you know, today.

I'm really curious about... You mentioned that the cast would even sometimes be a little bit confused, but they have this huge task where, one that these eight actors have to represent like a knowing each other for a long time so they have to have chemistry a different kind of chemistry than you know people who just met at a party right right and then also because of the body swap quality they have to know how to emulate their their scene partners how to become people that i assume that they've only mostly just met like how did you build chemistry with all these

people so they could do all that so we had a a week of rehearsal with the cast at the house so um uh the house was like getting dressed um cast flies out they're all staying in the same hotel we shot it in portland oregon uh but during this week of rehearsal you know they they all really bond i mean they're also bonding at the hotel like like you know at night but they all really bonded and and we just did a lot of exercises and sort of played and did like a lot of like improvisation we did a table read on the first day which was everyone just reads from the perspective of like their soul so like even if like whatever like Cyrus's and Forbes's body James Morissini who plays Cyrus

will still read Cyrus's lines kind of so like everyone could just hear how everyone was like interpreting I mean that was day one so a lot of stuff changed and then on like day four we did a second table read where now everyone read from the perspective of their bodies. But really, that rehearsal week, I just tried to give the actors as much agency as possible with coming up with their own isms. So Brittany, who plays Shelby, was essentially the leader of the Shelby isms.

And then people would take cues from her. And conversely, she would take cues from the other actors on what everyone else was doing. I would watch them improvise stuff. I would rewrite the script based on their improv. And yeah,

that rehearsal week was basically super, I don't know how we would have done it had we not had that week. How did you know to do all of those things? How did you know to create games and to speak from the soul and table read?

I can understand that. But the other things, because you hadn't directed a feature before, like, is it something you had employed on other projects or? No, I mean, this is,

this was the first project where I, I worked with like act, you know, where actors were writing, reading dialogue that I had written or like since film school. And really the first one where I really felt like actors were like really, really invested, like typically on a promo,

you know, I've worked with some, some great actors and great experiences, but it's like, Hey, nice to meet you on Greg. Here's what we're doing. We're going to do it right now.

Nice working with you. See you later. So, so, you know, I, I guess I was like my theory, like,

I don't even know why I had this like theory going or my general philosophy was just like, I want the actors to essentially own the characters. Like once they come in, you know, the character is almost like more theirs than mine, kind of. And I'll sort of help steer it. But, you know, like I told him, I was like, man, if there are any lines in the script, it's when you say them, you feel like they don't sound right. Just change them if there's a part where there's like a scene where a bunch of characters are talking and you feel like you would interject and overlap dialogue just go ahead and do that i just wanted the feel of like you know if like people are at a party there's a lot of overlapping dialogue um but it just yeah i can't explain why i it just seemed like a good idea i guess it's a really good idea yeah and like you know to your point of like uh it it seemed like they all went back it was like

okay well they they should just spend time together so so they're comfortable with one another that just seemed like a like a general social like uh it seems like a good idea yeah i mean i'm wondering if when they were in those private moments between shooting if they how closely they were observing these people that they were befriending and hanging out with so that they could bring it to the set the next day they they uh in some cases uh and i didn't necessarily ask them to do this but but they would have other their counterparts read the dialogue and like either take video or like or like audio and like listen to it played back. Yeah. That's just something that a lot of them did on their own volition,

but yeah, they, I mean, and, and, and just like great, great group of people, just like very talented,

talented, but also just very like down to just, just go all in. And that made a, that just made a huge difference that everyone was, you know, like I, I told everyone in advance, I was like, look, I come from film school.

I love my film school experience mainly because it's just like has the vibe of you're just with your friends making movies. And I kind of want that vibe here on set where there's kind of like no hierarchy. So I tried to just like get the like, let's just all be friends and we're just making a movie in a backyard and the fact that it was low budget helped with helped with that vibe too it's funny there's like a long history

of body swap movies but so few of them are about at least one of the things that your movie is about which is that if this were to happen some people would

do some dastardly things to get things that they want yeah and there's a real like libidinous ego driven fiscally driven like carnal aspect really thinks to get things that they want yeah and there is a real like libidinous ego-driven fiscally driven like carnal aspect to if you had a tool like this this is not like um you know 17 again or whatever like family switch like one of those movies like now i'm in my dad's body you

know like it's something totally different too um how much did you think i'm curious like the body swapping thing, why you were reluctant at first before going headlong into the concept? I think just because it was like well yes, the body swap sub genre obviously is something that we've all seen many iterations of and

like initially all I had was well it could be like an 8-way body swap so that's the only reason that it's different than any of these other movies and I was like I just don't think that's just me personally like i wasn't excited enough about like just that uh but yeah then then coming up with like essentially how dark stuff could get uh is is is when i got excited and then just yeah like i said like the the the first big turn or the big turn in the middle of the movie, I was like, oh man,

like I don't even know what would happen. Well, let's talk about it. We'll spoil the movie now. We've been talking for 20 minutes. If you haven't seen this movie, you can turn it off, but it's available to the world while we're chatting.

So what is the turn you're referring to and why did it light you up? Spoiler warning. So basically like the idea of if there's an eight-way body swap and during that body swap two people were to die then the whole group is sort of effed and now two people just definitely can't go back in their own bodies and just like think think about that idea i was like man like what would happen like you know like like i didn't even know and the fact that i didn't know i guess just got me excited and i was like like what would happen? Like, you know, like, like I didn't even know. And the fact that I didn't know, I guess it just got me excited. And I was like, man, I would want to watch that. You know, like I would, I would be very intrigued if somebody made that movie. So yeah, that, that was where I got really excited. And then at some point

early on, I was like, oh man, it would be nuts if the guy with the suitcase wasn't even him, like that would be crazy. Uh, so, so crazy. So I was excited about that as well, like early on. Yeah, that is the censure for this movie is so fun is that reveal that you're referring to, which is nearer to the end of the movie, we learn that the Forbes figure is not exactly the Forbes figure.

The Forbes figure would not be Forbes figure. And so David Thompson is awesome in this movie. Oh my God. And when you go back and watch it a second time and think about his

look at that you've got the sticker on your water bottle. Incredible. I mean he's so good. Yeah. And when you go back

and watch it a second time and watch his performance through the first hour 20 minutes of the movie it's just remarkable like trying to clock the choices that are being made all throughout maybe you can just talk about casting him and what he was asked to do in the

movie yes so yeah man yeah he's incredible if anyone from Lucasfilm was listening I recommend casting him in uh you know as a you know as someone from the empire of the first order I mean he would crush it oh he'd be so good uh yeah i mean so so for forbes the idea was the the initial idea was like i want to cast like a total fresh just like like a person who hasn't been in anything uh we ended up getting so we had an open audition david has is obviously not uh you know hasn't totally been anything but um i mean hand to god we got you know like basically you get emailed all like all the first reads you you see everyone's pictures. I looked at his picture. I clicked on his first, no lie,

like first five seconds, like, Oh my God, this is the guy. I don't know. I mean, it's like, uh, like in, in, in my experience with casting, if you're looking at auditions and you see someone who's right, it's, it's so apparent. So, so quick. like his voice uh voice his face just this his performance it was it was incredible and i was like man like you know so we did a callback uh just to see how well like essentially he was able to take direction and then we we did more cyrusy stuff as this callback to see and and you know he he crushed that so um yeah we you know like him and i talked a lot his his performance i think for me as a director was the toughest one to sort of get right because

you know like you want him to be uh like you know like weird but you don't want him to be so weird that it's like this guy is so weird that like no one would want to be in the same room with him yeah but you need to have like like a sort of foreboding like ominous quality to him like as soon as he comes in so really during that rehearsal week i just sort of like like encouraged him to like try different sort of levels of um of i guess like forbes's uh enigmatic nature and you know we played with like a bunch of stuff and it really wasn't until that first shoot day where like, I felt like, you know, he kind of really,

or we slash, he really found his groove. And then, yeah, like, like I'm watching him do this stuff. You know, he's like,

he's like doing this thing where he's like rubbing his cheek and I'm like, man, that's a good ism. He's like, yeah, I just thought that was like Beatrice, like, like feeling her stubble.

And I was like, oh man, that's good. And, oh, I love that. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, he, I, I just, I's good. Oh, I love that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, he, I just, I, yeah, he crushed the role. You know, he's a great guy. And yeah, I mean, really, once Forbes comes in the movie, it's like the movie very much shifts to like paying attention to this guy. So yeah, I'm so excited with what he did can you tell

me a little bit about just premiering the movie and then it getting acquired by netflix it was kind of like the one of the noisy acquisitions out of the festival i wasn't there this year so it seemed like everybody that i talked to said it played like you know lights out during the screening yeah man it was i mean so so you're right we sent it out what to sun it's we send a work in progress to like sun nansen like like i think like july or like june or july i honest to god did had zero expectation of getting in because it just seems like a like a pipe dream right um we don't really know anybody right so it's not like we can call like eugene hernandez i'm like hey man yeah can you just check this yeah Yeah, can you do me a solid?

And so truly not expecting to get in. I'm still working on the cut in November. I get the call that we're in. I was like, I'm in disbelief. I'm still in disbelief that it got in. So I was like, wow, this is insane. So then we essentially had to scramble to get it done. So then this was nice enough to give us like two extensions.

So we didn't even have it handed in to like nine days before the premiere. At that point, we'd only had two screenings, which were both test screenings. So it hadn't like really legitimately played

in front of an audience. So, you know, it's kind of nerve wracking. You go. We had a screening. They screened it for the volunteers the night before

the festival started. Like they chose a few films to screen to the volunteers as sort of like compensation for them volunteering so that was our first screening and you know it went great and it it really you know i mean i'll never forget it like it was it was it was it was very special and and people were very enthusiastic and i was like oh this you know and you know you go to sundance you have no idea like like you know um so that was awesome and then and then once we had our premiere premiere which i think was two nights later yeah you know like the whole cast is there for that and um you know i'm nervous i gotta like intro the movie family's there you know um you

hear the studio like that people from studios are there and they say you know this this whatever like like 11 days after it was done so you're you're all you know the idea of okay they're they're there are critics here now they're going to be reviewing this movie it's like man that's okay it's like i i just finished it i don't even know if i'm like mentally in this place but it doesn't matter anyway it plays screening goes great um i was sort of told by our sales agent uh to not expect offers to to to come in for a while because the like clerks stories that that we hear about movies getting bought it was kind of a thing in the past okay we get our first offer i think the then the night after that screening um and i was like wow and you know like first offer, I think, the night after that screening.

And I was like, wow. And, you know, like first offer comes in from studio, offer for like $5 million, which was twice our budget. So I was like, wow, this is crazy. And then the day after that, essentially like multiple people were bidding. And there's like a bidding war that lasted for about 36 hours, which was a real trip man i mean it was very exciting i mean you're you're just like in disbelief the whole time

you're like i can't believe this is happening i'm watching my sales agent do like his succession thing which i've never seen i'm like wow this is this is a whole different part of the movie industry yeah and i'm saying you know you know he's essentially like just just you know he's on the phone uh essentially just getting essentially pitting the bidders against one another. And then, yeah, so Netflix wins the bidding war, whatever, 36 hours after it starts. Very surreal. Five minutes after I was told that they won the bidding war, a Deadline article comes, like, no joke. So it was just this instant wave.

And yeah, I mean, it was a magical experience. I loved Sundance. Like the vibe there was so beautiful. Just like everyone there just loves films, just there to enjoy movies. And you talk, I mean, it was beautiful, man. Congratulations. It's very exciting. How do you feel about it being out in the world?

Are you nervous? Are you excited? I'm excited, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've had a bunch of screenings now and and they've all been really fun and um i'm just excited for for people to be able to see it and it's a tough thing to describe like the movie as you were saying so i'm i'm excited that i won't have to describe it and people can can just watch it that's good did you have you already

lined up you like are you off and running now on your delayed but ongoing future film career uh not uh i have i have a uh a a backlog of ideas but i have nothing concretely set up at this current moment okay that was very diplomatic um i mean yeah yeah i have i have ideas i mean i legitimately don't uh i'm trying to get this this other one going as my next thing. I mean, no BS. I'm not sure if it will happen or not. I hope it does. I hope it does. Okay.

Yeah. Maybe you can come back when it does. Oh, hey, I would love to, man. Thank you for having me. This is awesome to be here, man. Well, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? I know for a fact that you're a cinephile

because I've played movie trivia with you. Yeah. So have you seen anything good lately? All right. Well, my mind is going to The Substance, played trip movie trivia with you yeah so uh have you seen anything good lately uh all right well my mind is going to the substance which i saw whatever like oh like a week ago yeah tell me about i mean as somebody who understands vfx and production design and all this stuff that's in your movie like what it what what wowed you about that it just goes like i love the fact that it's

like its own world right i love i love a singular vision i mean like like all my favorite stuff is you know uh singular vision movie has its own rules um i mean are we are we spoiling the substance right now yeah sure if you don't want to hear anything about the substance turn off the last minute of this podcast uh yeah i mean you know when when it's like margaret qualley like comes out of demii Moore's back, I'm like, this is nuts. There are so many moments when I was like, this is nuts. This is nuts. This is nuts.

Then by the end, when Demi Moore's face is like slithering, I was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever, like, I was like, you know. And so, I mean, it reminded me of Titane, Titane, Titane, yeah. Just, I mean, obviously both wild French films and both like very, very singular and very tough to describe the tones. And I just, I remember like seeing Titane, I was like, man, this is the best movie I've ever seen.

I've never seen anything like this. It's like impossible to describe to people, which makes it so exciting. So I felt the same way about The Substance. It's like impossible to describe to people, which makes it so exciting. So I felt the same way about the substance. It's a great recommendation. Greg, thank you so much for doing the show. Sean, thank you, man. It's an honor to be here.

Thank you to Greg Jarden. Thanks to Van Lathan, of course. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Next week on the show, speaking of the past, we have the 1996 movie draft.

We'll see you then.