The Big Picture - Julia Roberts (!) and Sam Esmail on ‘Leave the World Behind.’ Plus: Golden Globes Snubs, Surprises, and WTFs.

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Sean and Amanda instantly react to the Golden Globes nominations and what it portends for the Oscars (1:00). Then, they are (somehow) joined by Julia Roberts (28:00) and friend of the show Sam Esmail to discuss ‘Leave the World Behind,’ Esmail’s adaptation of the Rumaan Alam novel. Esmail sticks around for an in-depth conversation about adaptation, set design, costuming, casting, working for Netflix, what’s coming next, and everything in between (48:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Julia Roberts and Sam Esmail Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about... What is it about today, Amanda? What are we doing on the podcast today? Well, there were some Golden Globe nominations. Sure. Our old friend Sam Esmail

joined us and my new best friend Julia Roberts joined us. It is true. Julia Roberts is on the big picture today, as is the great Sam Esmail. We will be talking with them. Sam at length. Julia for a spell. It was just like high quality, you know, not quantity, but just the light shone bright. A dense and fruitful conversation with Julia Roberts and Sam

about their new film Leave the World Behind. We will get into that very shortly, but first, as you said, there are Golden Globe nominations,

and the Golden Globes cannot be killed. They persist in our culture. Yeah. They are back. They have a new owner. Sure.

That owner is Dick Clark Productions. Yes. Todd Boley. Penske. Right, which is also owned by Penske, which owns every single trade publication now. Hollywood Reporter, Variety, Deadline. All of them. Yes.

And now they own the Golden Globes. The Golden Globes will air on January 7th on what network? CBS. Yeah. And streaming on Paramount+. Oh? CBS. Yeah, and streaming on Paramount+. Oh, great. Well, that's the push

they need, right? The Globes are back. Sure. They're so back. The Hollywood Foreign Press Association is no more. This bankrupt, corrupt, secret cabal

of foreign quote-unquote journalists, they're gone. And they've been replaced by some other people? I don't know. Many of the people who were still, who were in the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, I believe, are part of the new Golden Globes voting body.

I think that's true. Yeah. I don't think I ever talked about this. At the Venice Film Festival, I wound up sitting next to a lot of Golden Globes voters who introduced themselves to other people as Golden Globe voters and then proceeded to just like talk really loudly about how they didn't like poor things at top volume and other sort of obnoxious pre-screening behavior. They didn't talk during the movies but uh in in general i didn't get the impression that we have we have maybe solved some like baseline problems with the hollywood foreign press association but i'm not suddenly taking this seriously well some things have changed and so

i wonder if we will when we get to the globes because this morning's nominations were interesting i have some thoughts i have some thoughts i have some thoughts. I have some thoughts. I have some thoughts too. Two new categories added this year. One of which is an absolutely preposterous category called cinematic and box office achievement, which I will explore in depth on this podcast. I'm so excited. And the other is best performance in stand-up comedy on television, which I did not even look at the nominees for because I don't think about TV when we do this podcast. We do snubs.

We do surprises. We do what the fucks when we talk about awards nominations. So I'll start with what I thought was the quote-unquote biggest snub, which is The Color Purple. The Color Purple not being nominated for Best Musical or Comedy, a movie that on this show just last week I said, I feel very strongly that I believe it's in Best Picture. You put it in the number 10 spot over my objections,

over my note that our working list was too American and it needed an international film. And in your defense, I did say, well, the Golden Globe nominations are coming on Monday and there is a whole comedy musical category which should give it a space. And the fact that it did not get a space in that category does not bode well for its Oscar chances and also might suggest that not everything at the Golden Globes has changed. Well, I wonder, because to me, The Color Purple, your original presumption, I think, is right,

which is that it's a movie that's kind of made for the Golden Globes. Right. It is a starry, noisy, like maybe not the most artfully directed film of the year, but a film that I think makes people feel good, that has a lot of kind of pop and pizzazz. And it does have two nominations for performances from the Globes this year. In Fantasia Barrino for Best Actress in a Musical or Comedy

and Daniel Brooks in Best Supporting Actress in a Film. And I feel pretty strongly that those two are competing hard in the Oscars. So it's Absence, and it's clearly been replaced by Air, because Air got a nomination, one of the six films nominated for Best Musical or Comedy. And now... And Matt Damon was nominated in Best Lead Performance Musical or Comedy. Sure. Yeah. Do you feel good about that? And Viola Davis was not nominated in supporting category. You're not happy about that?

Well, I think if you're going to give air a lot of time, I do understand that the supporting categories are grouped together. So, you know, there are six spots instead of the 12 across the lead categories. I do think Viola Davis is a noticeable omission. Yeah. She was the best part of that movie, I thought. I think the challenge is just that

with the supporting, there's only six spots. With the lead, there's 12. I get it. That's it. I get it. No Alexander Payne for Best Director here, which I'm not sure I was stunned by it, but I think that the shape of the best director race is quite interesting um maybe maybe with that in mind we should run through the nominees for picture musical or comedy and drama and we should also talk about best director because that informs a little bit of this conversation we're having about color purple and um and the films that are in and not in so So Best Motion Picture Drama, the nominees are Anatomy of a Fall, Killers of the Flower Moon, Maestro, Oppenheimer, Past Lives, and The Zone

of Interest. I think there's certainly a world in which all six of those films are nominated for Best Picture. Now in Best Motion Picture Musical or Comedy, which is a category that usually has fewer additions to the Best Picture run since they expanded to 10 nominees. We've got Air, American Fiction, Barbie, The Holdovers, May, December, and Poor Things. Five of those six seem pretty strong. Yes, I agree. And now... So we've got 11 here for 10 spots.

Plus The Color Purple not being in, but I'm not giving up on it. I love that. I still haven't seen it. Is there another movie that isn't even recognized here in addition to The Color Purple that could be getting in? All of Us Strangers. Yeah. Andrew Scott was nominated in Best Actor.

Yes. And, you know, Claire Foy and Jamie Bell, and people are like popping up in the, you know, Indie Awards. This was a big weekend. The film premiered, and there were a lot of FYC screenings for the film. So it seemed like there was an

All of Us Strangers weekend happening in Hollywood. I agree that it's seeming unlikely, but I think it's still there. What about The Boy and the Heron? Sure, go ahead. I mean, it was the number one movie at the box office this weekend. I know, I heard.

It's widely acclaimed. And I think there's a chance. I think there's a chance. Which means, we actually, I think we have 14 legitimate contenders for Best Picture.

Which is unusually large. You're taking Spider-Verse off the board? You think Boy in the Heron is going to officially take its animated spot? I think if you take those two

and The Color Purple and All of Us Strangers, that actually makes it 16 movies, theoretically, that could be nominated, which is, that's a lot. That's interesting to me. I wonder if, with no Alexander Payne, The Holdovers is perhaps not as fierce a competitor as we have been suggesting the last few weeks.

I wonder if that's a little bit Globes bias. The Holdovers is not splashy you know uh in and it is not i guess it is best musical or comedy but in a lot of ways it is the antithesis of like the large big top you know everyone's just going for it funny things that the globes have historically liked also it is still more international which in some ways does reflect the voting body of the Academy, but also doesn't reflect all of the just, you know, older people working in Hollywood who are moved by the holdovers. And that includes you and Chris Ryan and me to an extent. How many Golden Globe nominations do you think Alexander Payne has in his career? Descendants? Let's see. And Sideways?

So that's two. I guess he has none is probably the trick, the question that you're asking me. No, he has seven. He has seven? Wow. Okay. He has Best Director for About Schmidt, Best Screenplay for About Schmidt. He won.

Best Director for Sideways, Best Screenplay for about Schmidt he won best director for sideways best screenplay for sideways he won best director for the descendants best screenplay for uh the descendants and best director for Nebraska this is actually like a globe's darling this is somebody who usually kind of cleans up here so I I noted with interest the fact that it's not being recognized here. Again, in theory, it's a new body. It's a much bigger group of people. But I thought that was fascinating. Let's talk about cinematic box office achievement. Oh, great. Of course, I want to say five years ago, the Academy made an effort to add a category like this to recognize box office greatness, I guess, in non-numerical fashion. And I'm still trying to sort out what is going on here now that the Globes has actually pulled the trigger on this specific category. So

the nominees for this category are Barbie, the Super Mario Brothers movie, Oppenheimer, Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3, Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse, John Wick Chapter 4, Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part 1, and Taylor Swift The Heiress Tour. Now, these are among the most successful films financially of the year, but not one through eight. We've got one and two and three and four.

And then we've got number six in Spider-Man. And then we've got number eight in Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning. And then we've got number 11 in John Wick 4. And then we've got number eight in Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning. And then we've got number 11 in John Wick 4. And then we've got number 20 in Taylor Swift The Heiress Tour. Yes. So I'm going to give you a couple of other films that are kind of sandwiched in between those. Okay.

Fast X, not recognized here. Right. Fantastic. The Little Mermaid. Yes. Elemental. Yes. Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania.

Yes. Transformers Rise of the Beasts. Yes. Five Nights at Freddy's. mental yes ant-man and the wasp quantum mania yes transformers rise of the beasts yes five nights at freddy's and the one that i would say if this is an award that is trying to recognize whatever box office achievement is despite however we might feel about it is sound of freedom because the achievement of the year in box office strategy well it's not it's not giving an award for did you make the most money and it's like like the award for that is the money. Right.

But is it the achievement in the money making? No, I think it's the achievement in spending a lot of money and making something that is slightly above total crap, you know? But did Taylor Swift, the Aris tour, spend a lot of money on its film? No, that's just to get Taylor Swift at the fucking Golden Globes. Come on. You know this playbook. Well, I want you to elucidate it for the audience, though.

Yeah, I mean, this is a grab bag of trying to get popular things that people have seen on the show in order to either get stars there or get, you know, eyeballs. Because people may not have seen past lives, which is their loss, but, like, everyone and their little kids

saw Super Mario Brothers. So, you know... But the difference between Super Mario Brothers and Fast X is that one, children had a good time at it, and the other, including your nephew, and then the other

made you have one of many psychotic breakdowns on this show. That is true. So, in that sense, you and the Golden Globes are aligned. Congratulations. In some respects, that is true. I made mention last week during our Best Movies of the Year episode that this was a year of the good franchise movies. And Spider-Man, John Wick, and Mission Impossible, lo and behold, are all recognized, which is wonderful.

And I agree, of course, that the point is, like, let's just get movies on the telecast that people like. That they know, that they've seen, that they're interested in. But what is the award? Like, what are they measuring? Which one is the best at making money and being good? I have no idea. I mean, this is why. You already have Oppenheimer in Best Picture.

I know. This is a stupid year to roll out what I think you and I both think is a stupid category. Because, you know, just if you're going to give out awards for being good, give out awards for being good. And you should be able to be good. You should really actually be able to be good while spending millions of dollars on a movie. You have millions of dollars. That's my whole mentality about this stuff. We agree with this.

And, you know, this year with Barbie and Oppenheimer, like we were right. Right. You know, so again, this is really stupid. It is. You're exactly right. It's a super weird year to introduce this because we have Barbie and Oppenheimer. But John Wick 4 was a great movie that I felt we didn't talk enough about during our top films of the year. You're probably right. You know why? I've only seen it once. Okay. I got to see it again. All right. It's complicated. I got I'm just waiting to buy the box set you know of all of the john wicks as opposed to buying the just the individual they haven't issued the box set with all four okay is that going to be like a steel case situation steel book i don't know could be

okay could be i'm gonna lock you in a steel case if you keep downgrading my physical media operations uh this is a stupid award i i don't they shouldn't they shouldn't do this i guess it's nice that super mario brothers will be on here but super mario brothers was nominated for best original song well the song peaches which is sung by jack black oh okay anyway surprises uh i kind of think these nominations are pretty respectable there's like a lot of nominations like past lives and anatomy of a fall here yeah they're respectable because they're just like copying all of the awards coverage, which is done by the owners of the broadcast. Trade publications.

Yeah, and the trade publications. It's like, you know, if awards show were a thing that anyone like actually cared about, then we're reaching like antitrust issues here. But that's fine. Like, I don't give a fuck, you know? But that's what we're going on here. But I am a little bit like, these people are just copying all of us now. So like, that's cool.

But I'm fine with it. My number one WTF this morning is that there's a paradox. Like, HFPA is gone. It's a much bigger body of people. They are clearly looking at what the critics and other voting bodies are doing. And they are, maybe there's a little bit of personal taste, but for the most part, they're just kind of glomming on to the direction that all the awards were going. So we don't have very many things that make you go like, what the fuck did the Golden Globes just do there?

I know. And so because of that, why do we need this show? What is this show? What is the purpose of it? What does it represent? How does it differentiate itself from any other show? It's not like SAG where you say, oh, this is what the actors are doing, or this is what the writers are doing.

Even the Critics' Choice Awards where you're like, there is a conglomeration of critics across the country that are saying that this is our favorite movie. Like, we don't know who these people are. Furthermore, they're not weird anymore. They're just kind of normie. They're normie awards givers.

Yeah. So, on the one hand, it's cool that they, like, liked Zone of Interest. I did too. Yeah. Me too.

But, like, so why do we have to do this? Well, just for money. Well, for money and also for celebrities in public this i mean this is have you seen that jennifer lopez is back on the like i you know she won some icon award the glamour i believe it's glamour magazine her fifth her fourth or fifth right and but she was

like i haven't won a golden globe so this really means a lot to me. Yes. She's still talking about how she didn't win that Golden Globe, which is the most crushing thing that ever happened. And you guys could have nominated for an Oscar and just really elevated all of our lives. And instead, this is what Jennifer Lopez is worrying about. She'll have to settle for $500 million, world-class fame and beauty. And Ben Affleck at home. She's still talking about it. And it's like, people still, the Golden Globes are still, like,

have brand awareness. And so, and they have all of the TV and the movie stars together, like, sitting at the table. So, especially after the strikes, when people, like, were not out promoting their movies or promoting themselves,

which was an issue for the business of being a movie star yeah as you can tell by the fact that they're all out so so active they're like going to be really out i think that the golden globes like are better funded than the critics choice awards i mean you know so yeah they're on a major network they're on a major streamer yeah it's i think I agree with you that these are sort of redundant, but at least it'll be people dressing up and being out. This show is in 27 days. Yeah. It's very soon.

I know. I've asked Bobby Wagner to fly to Los Angeles to join us to watch the show. How do you feel about that? Oh, Bob, that's fun. Always been a huge Golden Globes guy. I got all the history right up here. Pumped about it. What's your favorite win of all time?

It's the definitive award show by far. I don't even know what we're doing calling it the Oscar show. We're just really happy to be a part of it. You know, thanks for flying me out. Yeah, you're welcome. You should host next year. Making my pitch. Yeah, making my pitch.

That's why I'm wearing my Dodgers hat. You know, it's me and Otani coming to LA. Me for the Globes, him to hit bombs. Can we get sushi for dinner? Yes. While we watch? You asked like that would be an impossibility.

No, I know. I just like wanted to get it on the calendar, the planning schedule now. Four weeks from being able to order it. Well, I don't know. I'll order it right now

and just put it in the fridge. How does that sound? I just, I didn't know. Now it's going to be like a little bit of an event. It'll be exciting. Bobby will be here. Great stuff.

Are you excited about five nominations for Past Lives? I am. What do you think it means? People have, I think it means people have seen that movie, that there is an awareness for it, which is good for a movie that debuted, what was it, June? May, June? Technically it's Sundance. So yeah, it's been around for a while Sundance. It's been around for a while. Obviously, with Everything Everywhere,

we know that a movie, especially when it has A24 behind it, can stay in the consciousness. But I really like that movie, and I'm pleased that other people do, and other people are remembering it. There are six nominations for every category here, but with that in mind, Celine Song

got nominated for Best Director. That's pretty big. It's cool. That's not anything that is being suggested as possible at the Academy Awards this year, but would be a great achievement because I think she's very worthy given what we know she had, you know, not just contributed to the movie,

but kind of conceived of the movie. I don't totally understand how this movie qualified for non-English language film. Obviously, there are stretches of the film that are in Korean, but it's an American production with characters in America for the most part. I think they just made up new rules and then they were like, okay, this, again, this is a made up award ceremony run by still a closed group of people we don't know about.

Last we spoke, you said, I need to see Fallen Leaves. I still haven't seen it, but I need to see Fallen Leaves, right? I got two nominations here, which is really quite fascinating. The first is for best non-English language film. The second is for Alma Poisty, who is the star of the movie. Not in a million years would i have been able to predict that she would have gotten a golden globe nomination she's very good in the film as i said to you on friday akis aki kurasmaki's tonality is is unusual particularly to awards contingents very cool to see you should see the movie i will it's a good movie it movie. It's kind of a rom-com. Kind of.

I've heard it's adjacent too. Yeah. Listen, I'm going to see it. I'm excited. Okay. Any other surprises for you? Jennifer Lawrence is actually a surprise in that she's the only traditional, hey, a big-ass movie star was in a comedy.

And now we're going to have her at an awards ceremony but I'm happy for her. She was funny. I thought she was deserving. Yeah. To me, this is actually what The Globes is for. The Globes should be the place

where these kinds of films can get attention from an awards group that probably won't help it with the Oscars but you never know. Like, if everybody realizes that what she's doing

in No Hard Feelings is frankly just as challenging as what i i don't know who's who's who's a good comp that's running this year well i was gonna say margot robbie and barbie but but i mean is natalie portman in may december i i are those like radically different acts of acting i guess i'm surprised that May, December... I really like May, December, but it is... It really has the juice this award season.

I knew the moment I saw it. I knew the moment I saw it. So can I tell you like one thing that is sort of coalescing for me about May, December as I hear from people in my life

who aren't you? They're like, wow, Sean is so right. He's so smart. What a good guy. This is like a real dudes movie, which I find fascinating. All the dudes are like like, wow, Sean is so right. He's so smart. What a good guy. This is like a real dude's movie, which I find fascinating. Interesting.

All the dudes are like, May, December, what a masterpiece. We all feel seen, the way we've been taken advantage of. Yes, exactly. And all of the women I know are ranging from, huh, I liked that, to, oh my, that's really funny that they used the Ilya blush to quote one friend of mine. Like, what the fuck? This is wild things for straight people um so it but i just i find that interesting it's just a data point obviously anecdotal i liked it a lot yeah you always you always circle back to gender have you noticed that i'm just here surrounded by my dudes you know just trying to let my light shine speaking of

gender which which film has the most nominations this year? It's Barbie. Yeah. Because they have three original songs, which is so funny. That's why. Yeah, it's really... Which of the three is going to win? I don't know.

We had a mailbag question last week, which was... And thank you to whoever submitted this. I'm sorry, I don't remember your name, but you asked which original song performance is Amanda Dreddink um which I feel seen so with all respect to to Billie Eilish that's just a slow song and I have a really hard time with just like a ballad on stage at the Academy Awards bringing everything to a stop it's used beautifully in the song Billie Eilish. Great. A lot younger than me, but, and I sort of get it and sort of don't, but I support her. But I do feel like that might like actually win. And that's the least fun of the things to win.

I wonder if it will win the Oscar, but not the Globe. Yeah. I wonder if the Globe goes to Dance of the Night. Can I tell you something something that's a jam yeah i know it's really good and then also this is the power of barbie is that i a person of a certain age who just like hadn't really dug in with dualipa then dug in with dualipa and i have to say i get it you found a new friend yeah i'm very happy for you and also Dua Lipa is adjacent um to fans of the big pic on yeah i did see it did re-gram us so thank you Dua Lipa i return the admiration i was

wondering how we went from 12,000 listeners to 12 million overnight but it is because Dua Lipa posted something on ig about us so very exciting um it's very funny to me that Bruce Springsteen is competing against three Barbie songs did you have you seen She Came to Me no have you I have

I watched it last week okay this is Rebecca Miller Arthur Miller's daughter and Daniel Day-Lewis's partner, wife I don't know if they're married her latest film

she's actually made quite a few films that I like a lot this film pretty weird not my favorite nevertheless a Golden Globe nominee which is very exciting for her and for Bruce Springsteen,

who wrote the song attached to that movie. What else? What else is really, really weird about this? Okay. Six nominees. Why? Why is every category of six nominees? This isn't how it used to be.

What is going on? Because it's made up. They were just like, we're doing this now? I guess, yes. Because they can have more people. The whole point of this is just getting famous people on stage so they can make more money. So they can filter it back to the parent company who can then filter it. You know, it's just, it's a cycle of money and famous people.

I'm now at the stage of covering award season where I feel when a decision like this is being made, I should be consulted first. Like, I feel like I should be called up personally at my home and I'm feeding my daughter and I'm like, wait, you're doing what? And then I will give all my ideas. Would you like to share your home phone number

just for anybody who needs to contact you? Yeah, you can find it at akdobbins in the bio. Here's the thing. I agree with that. And we could set up an awards show consultancy. Yeah, a hotline. No, no, no, no. We're charging. We're charging for it. Okay. Like we're charging exorbitant fees. Okay. But I think for legal reasons, we would not want to take on the business of the Golden Globes because who knows what's going to happen down the line. Yeah, that's fair. I feel like awards washing is like right around the corner. So I think, you know, if other people want to call us, we'll work out, you know, a price,

like a rate schedule and offline and share that. But I don't know if we want to take this particular call. You know? I hear you. Prediction time. What film will win the most Golden Globes on January 7th? Okay, so... This is a great question. I haven't really...

Do you have an answer for this? I just have a guess. I mean, Oppenheimer has eight nominations, Killers of the Flower Moon, and Poor Things both have seven. Right, but I... have a guess. I mean, Oppenheimer has eight nominations, Killers of the Flower Moon, and Poor Things both have seven. Right. And then Barbie, of course, has nine. I think Killers gets shut out at the Golden Globes, respectfully.

Yeah. I don't think they've learned that much. Interesting. Okay. So you think Oppenheimer, then? Listen, you didn't sit next to anyone at Venice, okay? That was really a scarring experience. Are you in the HFPA now?

Are you the sole member? It doesn't exist. Okay. They should grant it to you. Okay. You think Oppenheimer or Poor Things? Oppenheimer. I do.

I think you're right, but I don't know. You saw Poor Things. It had quite a box office performance. I did, but I also sat next to the person being like, that was a lot, you know? And then just yelling, I'm at the Golden Globes. There were reports of walkouts by older people over the weekend. Okay. Would you ever walk out of a movie because of its sexual content?

No. Would you ever walk into a movie because of its sexual content? I'm sure I did at one point. Okay. Good to know. I don't really have any more thoughts. Do you? No, it'll be funny.

I'm not really taking this one that seriously. So even though I do kind of think it has more awards season implications, just because we've had like the, the void, especially with the strikes. And so the, the campaigns and the season are really just officially starting and it's just a lot of celebrities and a lot of films that are in the conversation.

I think strategically it was smart of them to just kind of glom on. And I think it will sort of, to just kind of glom on. And I think it will sort of shape consensus opinion. Like, I do, but I still kind of think all this is made up, you know, even as I devote a huge amount of my time and waking energy to it. I couldn't have said any of that better. So why don't you introduce what's happening next? We are on a Zoom call with Julia Roberts and also the writer and director of Leave the World Behind and our friend Sam Esmail. Let's go.

What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of Junior Chicken, McDouble, or Chicken Snack Wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink. So pick up a McValue Meal today at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. Well, Amanda and I are delighted to be joined by our old friend, Sam Esmail, and Julia Roberts of Julia Roberts fame. Julia, thank you for being here.

Sam, it's so nice to see you. Thank you. Julia, you are the star of Sam's new film. And this is the third time you've worked with Sam. And you've been, I think, a little selective in recent years. What brings you guys together over and over again? Well, I mean, honestly honestly it's funny to be in front of sam and saying this i'd rather talk about him behind his back do you want all right

here i'll turn around you're literally talking about me i really think sam is a genius and i love the way his mind works and i love the way he, you know, takes, uh, material and sort of, um, deconstructs it. And, and he's very like, he sees the world in a very different way than I do. And so I think in that way, we're a good balance for each other. And, but the thing that I love the most about Sam is the level of joy that we share in what we do and that we come to work every day. And we know that we are living our dreams and, and it never gets boring it never gets like oh yeah another major motion picture to do you know we're just like so excited and want to make it great and interesting and um it's just a joy to be with him and i feel like he really has always pushed me and um it's we're an unexpected match a hundred percent i would second all of that

and i think the great thing is we like challenges we don't um we don't want to take anything for granted but we are always on set we're like two kids in a candy shop or we're just so excited to be doing this i mean i've just been doing this for the last seven years. You've done this a lot more, but the fact that you bring that energy to set every day is always like, it's just heartwarming to me. It's so endearing. Sam makes pretty challenging material, thorny, complex stories. Like what, what are the challenges for you in doing a movie like Leave the World Behind? Oh, my gosh. Well, the first challenge was getting through the book that just scared the fuck out of me.

And so that was challenge number one. And, you know, so it becomes interesting. It's this balancing act, right, of pulling people into this story and, but not, you know, what do you give away and when and what are you giving away? And, you know, what is, I mean, it's things like the scene where I'm trying to turn on the kitchen lights and I hit one light looking this way and the backyard lights up and you see all the deer in the yard, you won the audience. But, you know, I don't like things like that. That just, Oh, they just get me. Oh, it just gets me that kind of stuff. Um am very uh i get scared very easily sam can tell you you want to talk about this the the is this spoiler we're gonna have to say spoiler yeah

yeah we will spoil yeah teeth talk about don't even say wait if you watch that scene julia i mean it's clearly on the day it was just an appliance. It was like a prosthetic that Charlie, who plays Archie, was pulling the fake teeth out of. Julia could not look at it. And so she just stands in the back and will not move close to Charlie. Yeah, Sam's like, this is your kid. His teeth are falling out. Shouldn't you come walking over?

I go, no, I'm good over here. I can cross the room this moment. I can parent the shit out of this moment your kid. His teeth are falling out. Like, shouldn't you come like walking over? I go, no, I'm good over here. Across the room this moment. I can parent the shit out of this moment right now. I think Ethan, I think this is, I think teeth are the dad's. Like throw up and pee. Yeah.

It was really funny. It's funny. Cause you are been in some scary movies and I guess you can't watch them, right? I mean, I have seen, I mean, I guess I've probably seen every movie that I've been in one time, at least one time from start to finish. And boy, I will get scared, especially when it's insidious. I remember going to see Sleeping with the Enemy with my sister in Times Square. That's the one I was thinking about.

Oh, wow. It was so fun. And the people behind us, the women behind us, were so scared and talking out loud the whole movie and when my character opens the cabinet and all the cans are straight and they're back to the oh get out oh i mean it was hysterical but it was just making us jump and it i mean yeah i get I get scared. When you watch this movie, did you have to not look at the teeth scene? Did you have to look at the teeth? What else did I not look at? Did the deer?

Did you have to look away with the deer? Yeah. I had some wildlife questions. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, listen, going to work for Sam, I just, I say yes to every, I'm like, I'm game for all of it until I maybe throw up. Then she, yeah, then she'll abandon her son and stay in the back of the room while his teeth are falling out. Yeah.

It's funny you bring up Sleeping with the Enemy because that's a movie where like, we're with you the whole time. We're rooting for you. We're worried for you, for your character. In this movie, a little pricklier. amanda character you know a little tough to get on board with sam gives me are always going to be like i'm maybe not a good person uh which is fun i mean it's part of the what's been the great, you know, experience of working with Sam and certainly homecoming, which was a huge challenge and so fulfilling in that way. And then when he called me for gas lit and kind of gave me like a thumbnail sketch of it. And while we're talking, I sort of look up Martha Mitchell and that famous picture of her with the white sunglasses comes out. I'm like,

I'm in, I'm in good. I got it. Let's go. Um, and then Amanda, who is just, yeah.

I mean, I think, I think the, the first speech in the movie kind of, it's a great, it's a great way to start a movie, letting people know exactly who you are. Yeah.

So that was really fun and challenging and i don't know it's the i don't think that whole that whole thing isn't in the movie though right the whole i can't remember in the the opening yeah yeah yeah yeah we're booking the vacation and yeah yeah yeah but the window the speech at the window no no that was that was yeah that we cut that down a little bit but it was it was you know honestly how many people can pull that scene off and you're still gonna hang with that character i mean you got you got to have a julia roberts pull yeah do it i mean it really she's she's amazing that's why she's an amazing actress because she can channel the humanity out

of somebody as deeply flawed as an Amanda. No offense to you. No, I know. It's really tough reading the book about him. It's been a rough run for Amanda in pop culture, generally. It's okay. You mentioned reading the book as kind of the first step of doing this. And one of the things that stuck with me from the last time we talked to Sam about this project was Sam said he read the book and he immediately saw the movie in his head, which I'm very impressed by it. You know, that's why I'm not a director, but I'm curious what your reaction was first reading the book and what, if anything, about Sam's version of the book, um, surprised you or was, or was spot on or, um, well, when Sam called me, um, and was like, oh, you know, I'm going to send you this book and I, and you got to read it, read it as quick

as you can. I think this would be great for us. And, you know, and let's like, you know, read it and, and, and get back to me as soon as you can. I'm like, oh yeah, great. And he sends me the book and, uh, sit down and I start reading it and i'm reading it and i'm reading it i'm reading it and i call him and i go okay flag on the play i just this will not be fast as soon as the sun starts to go down i cannot be reading absolutely daytime only reading so it's going to add a couple of days to reading this and, and read it. I thought it was so great. So intriguing.

And I thought, you know, what, how I always wonder, like, I always say like, Sam, how,

how do you do it? How do you just extrapolate the material and kind of figure out what are the, the critical salient points and, and character arcs. And there's just so much to consider. And honestly, your first pass at the adaptation was really fast. And I thought it was so fantastic. I remember calling you.

I was in New York and I was like, oh my God. And the end, I was like, oh, the end, the end of this thing is so great. I just can't even stand it. And I got so excited because it just brought it into such clarity for me of how we would be able to dig in and just pull it off. I had a lot of fun watching you and Mahershala Ali together. You have very unique chemistry and you sort of need to earn each other's trust in a really fascinating way. And there's like an amazing dance sequence. We just want to hear you guys talk. You just texted me about this. I have a follow-up question if it's not addressed about this sequence.

Okay, Sam, I texted you from my dinner last night. Did I not? Yes, you did. Do you want me to read the text? I was in a restaurant last night with three of my very great girlfriends who had come to town to celebrate my birthday, which was a couple of weeks ago. Happy birthday. And thank you very much. And we're in this really nice restaurant, and they're playing very good music, which I'm not paying a lot of attention to. And all of a sudden, I just feel uncomfortable.

And I realize that that song, and no offense to the gifted artists that created it because that song is amazing in my opinion sam has got such great taste in music he's got such great eclectic taste in music i mean incredible and i'm like wait this is the song i get no chance in this life to dance with mahershala ali right and this i thought we're friends i thought like it was and i mean and i would beg him please just anything else like the beginning of the the first words of the song are so all proven super good so it's playing in this restaurant last night and i text sam that fracking song is playing old. So it's playing in this restaurant last night. And I text Sam that fracking song is playing in the restaurant right now. And then what I didn't text you was like 20 minutes later,

the chef is going around the restaurant and checking on people. And he comes to the table and says, how is everything? We're like, oh, it's great. It's great. He goes, Sam Esmail is just my favorite i am so excited what about this movie that you did with him because oh he's just incredible and i was like it is incredible except for the song um yeah so we your ears were burning last night sam yeah i don't want a more question about this particularly like in characterizing amanda

and even the other characters in the movie. Alcohol is really important to the movie. It is. And how much a character is consuming and which characters are consuming what and what they drink and when feels like a big part of this. And it's interesting like watching who gets to choose what like how did you think about that? How did you think about which character should be holding that stuff? You gotta remember this book came out like early days pandemic. Do you remember what we were doing early days pandemic? No am we're drinking like fish yes yeah yeah and i thought that was important

i think that's you know that's the first i think the first thing you do during a crisis especially one that is confounding and and kind of slipping through your fingers as to what is going on, how to address, how to like maneuver around this is to self-medicate is to find comfort. And it was especially important for those sequences that night when you guys can't, the family comes back to the house because I finally wanted to break the walls between the two families a little bit and get, and get them to kind of open up to each other and to pair each other off. I mean, I love as much as I love you and Marge,

I also love Myhal and Ethan, you know, and their sort of coming together around the campfire. But it really was motivated by the pandemic. I mean, we would have, remember Zoom drinks? Oh, yeah. It was just something. I had some with Amanda. Sean and I did many of them.

Yeah. It's horrifying in retrospect. It just made sense. I have one more quick question about the Mahershala scene, and I'm sorry to bring you back to that moment. The trauma. This is the second movie in recent memory where you have a, what would I call a notable dance sequence.

And so I was just wondering, are you working with a choreographer or is that just like movement from the heart? Well, you're kind to think that there was a professional involved. You know, it was one of those things actually in both cases, I think there was a choreographer who wanted desperately to get their hands on, certainly me. And in the instance of the movie I did with George, desperately wanted to get their hands on George.

And we could not be corralled. And so that, that was that. And then with, with the scene with Mahershala, you know, Sam did have a, have a choreographer and it was more about this, you know, plotting the spaces in the room. And, you know, so some of the kind of ways of moving that would get us from here to there. And, but I can say, I think really honestly

that separate from the challenge of the song and the challenge of dancing the way I felt Amanda would dance and which was, you know, sort of a little embarrassing in front of someone like Mahershala Ali and and in rehearsal and Sam can back me up on this we when we sort of ended up in each other's arms as it were uh and I would look up at him he's so tall and um and terribly handsome. It's actually quite striking how that to me is. And if you're in his presence. Dark eyes, these cool brown kindness, just staring down at me.

And in rehearsal, every time, I just turned beet red, started laughing. Couldn't go on. And I just said to him at one point I said I promise when we're filming I won't do this every single time I just felt like a 12 year old girl not get I mean every time just just imagine the the size of him looking down with giant eyes of kindness. And it was just, it was, so that was some of my great acting was not. Not laughing. And I'm like, you're so cute. Will you and Sam continue the collaboration, you think?

Well, I've been trying. You know, my lawyers have been hard at work just getting me into his sort of writer. It's like, you know, White Flowers and Julia Roberts. That's what I'm currently working on. I mean, if I had it my way, every time out, we would do it together, right? It's, I mean, honestly. Yeah. I mean, Sam, if you want to keep me employed here in the twilight of my career.

Yeah. No, no, no. We're just getting started. There's no twilight here. We have a couple more decades to go. Julia, you've been very, very generous with your time. Wait, Amanda, you have to talk. You love talking about wardrobe and cut. Oh, I do. Okay. Well, I know she have to talk. You love talking about wardrobe and cut. Oh, I do.

Okay. Well, I know she has to go. Okay. You do have to go. No, well, I do. I have five minutes to talk about wardrobe and then I do have to go.

And Julia's great about this. Yeah, well, okay. The first question, but I did actually, like I promised my friends and I don't even know if you remember these, but I promised my friends

I would ask about the stirrup pants in Ticket to Paradise. Do you remember this? And do you have any tips on how we might work them into our day-to-day lives? Okay here's what's funny about that is this because it was COVID and you know everything else and the costume designer was in Australia and you know all had, they had their mood boards, whatever way everybody was like Pinterest boards flying everywhere. And, and so Elizabeth Stewart, who is a stylist that I work with, and she's a great Instagram follow. Good module player. Amazing. And so they enlisted her help stateside with me to help put together outfits and build the kind of look for this character.

And she pulls out these stirrup pants and these pumps. And I was like, what do you, what is this? I mean, come on. I was like, yeah, well, I don't, I don't, I mean, on I was like yeah well I don't I don't I mean am I going to wear boots if the stirrups gonna show because of course they're going to show that's the whole point they have to you've got to see that and I was like wow this is so odd I don't I don't understand it I'm going with it I'm just somehow I'm like not saying no to this. And it was, it was remarkable how many people, a very strong response to my stirrup pants in the airport. And I'm glad you got to see him because you don't always get to see a whole

outfit. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why any movie allows a budget for shoes because they're so expensive. The time you never see them. Well, they looked great. We all walked out, we saw it together. And then I just think it was like stirrup pants was all that we said to each other. So it was worth the risk.

I would say go for it. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. Oh, stirrup pants are in my closet right now. And you know what? I'm going to wear them to sports night tonight. Wow. Maybe I will too. What is sports night? I don't, what is, what is sports night?

Henry's soccer season is over and they have a sports. Like awards thing. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. Amazing. Just for the record, you have now inspired Julia Roberts. And she has inspired me right back, you know?

So Julia, thank, thank you so much. Just incredible to talk to you. Bye. Thanks. so the movie feels very consistent with the stories that you've told and it is but also feels like in some ways like a culmination um i wonder if you think of it that way i would i think i remember saying this to you last year which is i always try and bring things from what i've done into what i'm doing and then you know just trying to find a way to level up i guess is the best way to describe it because i don't want to do whenever you do whenever you make anything and this is something

that julian i kind of um alluded to i i don't feel like rehashing and i don't feel like you know doing a small tangential thing or uh let me just play around here and experiment here i want it to be the best thing it can be and so when you do that you kind of have to bring everything you've done before now that's not that's not necessarily true i guess you could just you know do a wild swing and just do something totally different and still put your all into it but I don't know how you divorce your past experience with the new thing you're trying to create. I think you'd have to bring that to the table. So you just reread the book? I did, but I didn't reread it before I saw the film. And so I read the book when it came out, like Dark Pandemic, as you discussed, which was just an astonishing time for that book to be published and also having reread it, just what were we doing to ourselves?

I know. But as I said, when Julia was here, I have been thinking a lot about something you said last time, which is you read the book and you just saw the movie in your head. Yeah. And you just, you saw the movie in your head. So now that I've seen the movie, I want to know like what you, what you were seeing because there's, there's, it's an incredibly faithful adaptation in a lot of ways. And I think, no, I think it's an amazing adaptation. I think it captures the essence of it. Yes. It captures the essence of it.

I guess it's, um, i guess it's good rather than faithful how about that um but there's a there is a lot of new stuff and there is a lot of stuff that i recognized as your interests yes and i'm like i'm wondering if you like you know the first set piece of the we're full spoiling yeah yeah real spoiling like of the ship running aground um not in the book can you guys give me in the book not in the book yeah not in the book none of the ship running aground. Not in the book. Can you guys give me in the book, not in the book? Yeah, not in the book. None of the set pieces basically are in the book.

The flamingo and the deer. The flamingo and the deer. Yeah, but none of the book. Not the standoff. Not the standoff with the deer. No, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The ship is incredible.

The fact of the deer. Incredible. Yeah. Never seen that before. But it's like... That perspective. Neither have I. Does that... But that's the trick of movies. Show me something you've never seen before. But it's like. That perspective. Neither have I. Does that.

But that's the trick of movies. Show me something you've never seen before. Exactly. Yeah. So tell me when that comes to you in the process of it happening. When I was reading. That is fucking amazing. Hold on a second.

I read the book in one sitting as just a fan of the book. Yeah. And I immediately read it again thinking about it as a movie. And that's when I started to see everything. Is that common for you when you're reading something or thinking about what's next like are you like i let's see if this is a project for me or something i usually i'm not thinking about it as a project i just want to enjoy myself if i'm getting a book but this book was sent to me specifically to adapt and and make into a feature so but i didn't read i still read the first time i don't want to think about i just want to enjoy it and then i read it the second time because i loved it so much and i read it the first time. I don't want to think about it. I just want to enjoy it. And then I read it the second time because I loved it so much.

And I read it the second time and started to see the movie. And one of the things I want to say, because you guys talk about Killers of the Flower Moon, how different it was from the book. I am not a fan of people necessarily adapting something from another medium in this one-to-one ratio. It almost never works it shouldn't work yeah it's so great in the medium for a reason and when you think about it in terms of especially if you're going to a cinematic medium you have to recontextualize it you have to figure out a a different way to mine you know the same the same, the interior lives of these characters, or the visual language of the book. You have to find a way to reconstruct it.

If you do this one-to-one thing, I think nine times out of ten, you're going to fail. So I was very upfront with Ramon about that. So I called him. Before I called Julia, of course, I course i called him and i said here are the ideas and it was basically the things that i started picturing in my head the second time i read it were all those set pieces and i'll just quickly what i'll say is before i read the book i had been contemplating doing i love a disaster genre have you guys ever done a disaster pod are you guys not you're not really fans of the disaster we did apocalypse yeah we did apocalypse during the uh pandemic that was like i'm talking

like earthquake towering inferno no day after tomorrow we certainly could but it is a great movie i i don't think there have been a whole lot of them of late you know yeah and those that have been made are often star duane johnson and And so are maybe not as appealing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Irwin Allen era is long gone. Yeah. But I'm a huge fan of that. So I really wanted to bring it back. Like you said, I do think there's been a dearth of them in recent time.

And I knew I wanted to do something around cyber attacks. Because I found that to be kind of mysterious. I mean, even though we've heard that term before, I don't think anyone can actually describe what that would look like. And then I read this book, and what I loved about the opportunity here was in most disaster films, the center of the story is the spectacle, and the characters are pretty secondary.

They're pretty stock characters. They're really avatars for you to just be in awe of the CGI sequences, you know, or whatever, back in the day, the special effects sequences. And when I read the book, it was an opportunity to invert that and make the characters front and center and put the disaster elements off in the distance, which I found way more relatable and realistic because that's what it feels like when we're in a crisis.

Things are out of reach, and they're not explained. I mean, this is the other thing. In a disaster film, in the first act, there's usually some fucking computer model that tells you, here's what's going to happen. There's an earthquake coming. Yes, and then we're going to die until we get the thing. And here, there's never an explanation. There's it's, it's the ambiguity or the unknown and the uncertainty that is driving most of

the suspense and action. And I love that because again, very relatable sort of resonant. I want to ask more about the specific set pieces, but you just alluded to the other kind of like real key of the adaptation. And I think that I think that like you necessarily really had to change but sort of preserved the effect of the book is in the book there are all these kind of like one-off sentences yeah buried here and there that are clues to what is actually

going on outside the house but it's never i mean how would you describe it yeah he's never he never i mean he never even hinted what it what it what it is he definitely hits it like everyone's theorizing on what it is sure but then you as the reader are also given information sprinkled throughout the book very from other from other sources like you know suddenly in San Diego or in New York and a plane went this way or something and it's really like artfully

and eerily done and and tossed off and it never adds up to a whole picture but it is this like practical thing

of you as the reader are getting the tiniest bit more information about what's going on yeah than these characters are, which you can do when you're writing a novel, but it's very different when you're making a movie.

And it wouldn't have worked because it would have been so dissociative to the characters. And when you, look, the first thing that I think when you're watching any movie is that you got to have a connection to who you're following, even if you're not rooting for them or even if you don't particularly like them. Like I always use There Will Be Blood as an example, one of my all-time favorites. And, you know, Daniel Plainview is not somebody that you necessarily like or root for, but man, is he fucking compelling. And that's the emotional journey that PTA takes you on in that. And I think you have to find that. And when you start losing that, you know, that connection and you start cutting away to other things, it's it doesn't it doesn't it won't hold. I don't think it will hold by the end.

And again, the spirit of the book is, will we ever know what's going on? I wanted to retain that. And you do. And you also I mean mean you you invent things like the flyers and yeah and like cnn like comes in for like you find visually ways to do it but yeah it is very different than the book yeah exactly i was wondering as you get older you got a family now yeah you've been very successful you still find yourself attracted to conspiracy, societal collapse. Like, are you more interested in those things? Do you more believe in their power and inevitability as you get older?

Because some people who I think who could be in your position would be like, I don't care. I'm in my bubble. I'm in the bubble of my rented house in Montauk and I don't have to worry about anything bad happening to the world because I'm fine. And I feel like you're kind of moving the opposite direction. Yeah, I don't feel that way at all. I mean, have you seen what's going on out there? It's, it's, it's pretty, it, it's scary. And I honestly, having children makes me even more scared. I mean, aren't you guys a little concerned about the future of our children?

I mean, it's, it's it's it's it's striking like back in the at the time when i read it you know one of the themes that i loved about the book was how we sort of lose sight of our common humanity when there's a crisis i mean that was happening during the pandemic right like the moment where we needed to come together we fucking went the opposite direction and we just there was just tons of infighting um i mean we could not even agree on wearing a fucking mask right um and then years later now this movie's coming out and what's going on in the world right now and it's fucking happening again that scares the shit out of me and one of the things that i loved about the book and i always compare it to

like a campfire tale you know you know where you tell scary stories to one another. And it could be a real threat that's happening. But there's something about a community coming together and hearing their fears told through a story that's therapeutic. That makes you maybe work through that trauma, but at the same time, provoke conversation later and make you kind of dwell on, well, what is going on? And if anything, that was the point of, that was sort of the point of the ending and the point of the film is that it is a warning. But at the same time, it's a way to exercise some of these anxieties through watching a story you know watching a movie or hearing a story like is there is and then and then you know do you turn this off and hopefully turn to someone and talk about it and have that those are the movies that like at least i enjoy

like you know when movies end with everything tied up and someone saves the day or whatever to me i often find those are the movies that go in one ear and out the other. I walk away and I don't think about them. I may have a lovely time. I may have been entertained. I may have watched lovely performances and cinematography. But I much prefer the films that just leave me speechless and then wanting to turn to my partner

and just talk for hours about it. This is why he keeps casting America's Sweetheart speechless and and then wanting to turn to my partner and just talk for hours about it and that this is why he keeps casting america's sweetheart as like devious confused people stuck in impossible situations um i i'm kind of i'm kind of fascinated by each set piece so the fact that i didn't know until this moment that like none of that so the the plane crash the ship the flyers no none of those things are in the book the tesla's not at all by the way no all time just very very fun very fun really really good can't wait for yeah elon and you know it's funny when we were screening the movie i did not think it was that funny it was okay really funny literally every time julia walks up yeah the

whole theater just because as soon as you see them parked, you're just like, oh, I know what's happening. You know? And then you just wait for it to, it's really, really funny. Yeah. And messed up. Those were not in the book. And I got to give credit to Roman, man, because, you know, writers can be very prickly and precious about our material. And he was not at all.

He was, in fact, loving the fact that, and I mean this in all sincerity, that they are kind of two different pieces and two standalone pieces. And I think you can read the book and have a totally different experience from reading the film or watching the film. And one doesn't really spoil the other, really. I think they're really kind of

standalone and i think that was a goal of ours for honestly for roman and i so i'm really glad that um that it wasn't this this adherence to every word on the page like that we that that we did create i mean he created this beautiful book and this film can be set apart i mean it's it's great and by the way you should read the book sean it's great yeah it's great i have it literally right here in my bag i well thank you for offering okay um i have a hard time reading a book after seeing the film that's why why is that because like all people when i read i imagine and just as you see entire movies in your head when you read a book and Amanda

loves to be inside the world of novels that she reads if the world has been set for me I have such a probably in part because I have this

bizarre fealty to the idea of the filmmaker that it's hard for me to enjoy a book what if I give you permission to imagine your own it's not about that

this is about me Sam it's not about you I think also so often how dare you how is it not about me this is is about me, Sam. It's not about you. I think also so often. How dare you? How is it not about me? This is a rare case where I think like both, they do both stand on their own and they're both excellent. But it's like sometime if you often, you love the book, it doesn't quite get translated into the novel, into the film in the way that you like it or vice versa.

You know, a lot of great movies have been made from, you know, like fine books. Yep. So it's rare and pretty exciting, actually, that they do. I think they're in conversation with each other, the book and the movie, but they're both really good. There's a critical scene in the movie where Julia and Mahershala's characters

have a conversation about what Mahershala's characters have a conversation about what mahershala thought was coming and he's sort of like unspooling the information that he has that indicates that he knows that something is up that is like incredibly cinematic in its tension but it's kind of a hard challenge for a movie where you have to sort of not solve what's going on in the movie but give us enough that we get to the point where we're like fuck this is real like this is really real i'm curious like the idea of like getting a story along without dissipating atmosphere making sure that the actors don't seem like they're just reading a script. Like talk about how you do that. It's that's, and Julia's, uh, touched upon a little bit.

And by the way, again, not in the book, but that's the heart. That was the hardest thing is how much information to dole out. Um, and to, and then to keep, because you, what you don't want is to confuse the audience. So you don't want to keep them in the dark too much, but obviously you don't want is to confuse the audience so you don't want to keep them in the dark too much but obviously you don't want them to get ahead as well so it was it was a and and that's why there were like a lot of things in the script it was it was kind of when in the in the editing process i had to play around with that and and kind of watch the movie with people you know it's it's funny when you sit down in the edit bay and i bring in a friend and we walk out you know just sitting there with them watching the film with them without them saying anything you start to feel

when they relax or when they sit up and and then i start to do it you know it's osmotic or something i don't really i don't really i don't really understand it but um and then i start to cringe when they're like, oh, that's terrible. How many times do you watch your own work sitting next to someone? Oh. Like a friend or something. I mean, that sounds, that's very brave. It sounds excruciating.

I do it a lot. I put myself through the wringer a lot because, oh, wow. Well done. Yeah, right there. Yeah. It's very similar to, I make a mandolist in every episode five times before we publish. I mean, for me,

you have to be grueling about it because especially with, I think, a suspense thriller, I guess we could call it, because it has to be so dialed in. The one thing I did know is that I was going to piss people off at the end. And so I knew that everything up until the end

had to be as dialed in as possible. Was that a goal or because you knew what the ending should be or what informed that? No, it was based on the fact that when you watch a disaster film, the expectation is everything's going to be okay, there will be a solution, there will be an answer, and expectation is... Everything will be okay. Everything's going to be okay.

There will be a solution. There will be an answer. And we're going to wrap this up. And I knew from the get-go that I was not going to pull punches when it came to the ending. That we would have to commit and follow through. That this was what GH was afraid of.

And that we were going to... And that we were always with these that that we were all always with these characters we were not suddenly going to cut to uh you know a news reporter explaining in detail what's going to happen so i knew that was going to divide audiences and i think i think it probably will i mean um but um ultimately but that kind of made me so committed to making sure everything building up to that moment was as suspenseful and as like on that walking that tightrope of getting you to want to know what happens next. But once you get there, you get way more questions than answers. And, you know, it's just a fine needle to threaten, you know. We haven't talked at all

about Ethan Hawke and yeah and Mahala and so that's another change right I have to

yes Mahala yes she was so Ruth was GH's wife do you know anything about this did Amanda fill you in Sean no

but I have to say I didn't know that I knew that it was Mahala but I didn't know that you'd switched it from wife to daughter. And I had paused for a moment. I was like, this is interesting. I wonder how Sam's going to handle this. I think you made the right call.

Well, the film has a kind of the presentation of the GH character is very Twilight Zone, where you're sort of like, am I supposed to believe this or not? What is really going on here? We're at we're uneasy. And so when he introduces her as his daughter, there's a part of you that is like is that his wife is that are they are they on a team of like are they federal agents you know your mind starts trying to figure out what's happening julia's character sort of feeds into that upstairs in the bedroom scene yeah yes exactly no that was by design that was intentional um but in the book she she is his wife. And I think in the book, you immediately don't question that.

Did you feel that way, Amanda? I didn't question it. No, I didn't question it at all. And the book, in a different way, is highlighting Amanda's skepticism of it in such a, frankly, casually racist way that you want to distance yourself from that character's perspective so you're like yeah you know you you accept it yeah and so that

was me again trying to you know thread this thread this needle of suspense so that um so that once gh and ruth you know come to the house yes there yes, there is still that sort of microaggressive racism that Julia's character is going on. But at the same time, you're kind of like, but should she be skeptical of these people? And I love putting the audience into that uncomfortable position because then you start thinking about what you would do in that situation oftentimes that's what would happen after i screened the film a lot of there would be debate on well she's racist she's wrong for not letting them come in or not believing them and then the other half would say well i wouldn't let them in i mean my kids are in there so i loved putting i love putting the audience member where they're they're sort of divided about how they feel about something.

Because not only does that give you the kind of rope to have that suspense being pulled through, but at the same time, you're making them question their own sort of judgments and their own sort of, as GH would say, preconceived biases or unconscious biases. I think that's one of the big themes of the book that I wanted to retain in the film. One of the things that's correlated to that is that GH is not really able to properly prove to them that he is who he is. In part because the world is collapsing. The technology that we are so reliant upon is shutting down. I actually wanted to ask Julie about this and I regret not doing it,

but like, you know, the movie is a real indictment of our addiction and the like, lifeline that we've created to TV

and our phones and our laptops. Yeah, especially that last scene, right? Right. I mean, you're the physical media guy.

Well, I have a lot of questions. That was for you, Sean. Yeah, I almost stood up and clapped in the theater i was like sam fucking gets me this is unreal how much he gets me and if i if we all have to go down may i be in that chamber with all of that physical media no but you're but you're absolutely right i mean like it's funny i always um i i always have like three buzzwords or something that I try and give my crew and my department heads.

And we try and kind of remind ourselves, what is this film about? One of those things was definitely the reliance of technology, the blind trust on technology and how that can be used against us. And that wasn't in the book. Was it in the book? A little bit know that wasn't in the book wasn't in the book a little bit a little bit in the book like the the news alerts and the not being able to find out what's going on yeah yeah and i think we tried i tried to draw it out more when it you know um when it came to the sort of drama between the the characters and it's like he said you know gh normally could just maybe pull up his account or on his phone or she can google it or whatever you know and that just couldn't happen and so when we're left just having to trust one another and there is there isn't like a thing we can text or

call or whatever there isn't an outlet for confirming or denying like by the way the world used to be you know not not not 20 years ago, 30 years ago, we suddenly put up walls. And that's part of the reason why I think it's worse now. I got to be honest, because I think technology, and I'm not dissing on technology, I actually think technology is pretty agnostic. It can be used for good, it could be used for bad. But there is, when it is used for bad, and it does seem to accelerate division in a lot of ways.

I mean, I don't want to get into like a whole rant about social media and all of that. But I mean, like, you know, this is the ugly side of it. And so to me, it's not about exploring the text specifically. It's about exploring the human side of that. And so in a weird way, this is kind like the the kind of funhouse mirror of mr robot because mr robot you're with a character that is technically savvy he's narrating exactly what he's doing and now with a bunch of people that don't have any clue about technology and when they lose it they literally have no clue how to even talk to people, how to relate to other people. I mean, those scenes where, you know,

she can't watch Friends on her iPad, you know, he's like, the only thing he can do is jerk off to a picture, you know, that he just took that. Like, they're still trying to grasp for technology. We've all been there in both cases. You know, it's like, why can't I finish my favorite show?

And why is the internet down at this very important hour? You know, it happens to the best of us. Right, Amanda? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I want to ask about the friends thing, but we're not to the ending yet. Yeah, let's wait on the ending. Okay.

I guess I'm kind of... What do you want? Go ahead, Sean. Well... Don't be shy. Do you like the idea of fucking with the audience, like even to the point of frustration? No, I really don't. I know people get frustrated when they watch my stuff,

and that actually bothers me because that's not my goal. I don't want to... If you're saying frustrate in terms of provocation i don't mind that i don't mind provocation i even if that frustrates a person i think ultimately there's something about it that will stay with them um but if they're frustrated because they're just confused and they're just checked out that's obviously not ideal not something i want is that is that i think there's this movie is a great blend of both i think it is very provoking in terms of like reminding the viewer what kind of our collective flaws are you know like our collective whether it be in a family or in a relationship or with our neighbor or um with the kind of creature comforts of our life. But then there's also this sort of resistance to provide information

in places where we're looking for information when we watch a movie, like you said. Yeah, it's funny. And I guess this is the book reader. I wanted to ask you about the scene where Mahershala and Ethan Hawke go and the son. It's after the teeth fall out. And they go to visit Kevin Bacon. And it's Kevin Bacon's one tremendous scene. Absolutely incredible performance.

I mean, awesome. And it's like, so at the end of that scene, Mahershala's character, GH, gives another speech, which from a book reader's perspective, like spells out a little bit more, I would argue, than you ever find out in the book. And maybe it's just conspiracy theory and maybe it's, but it's a kind of information. Yes. I thought it was really well done. And I was wondering how you decide how much information to give there. So that was tricky because when GH draws that conclusion, I remember when I wrote it, I was like,

okay, for the people that need some answer, this I thought was an answer that could feel satisfying yet still mysterious. Right. Plausible, but unconfirmed. Plausible, but unconfirmed. And so, because again, I did not want to pull punches. I think, look, we're three years out from COVID. We still don't know what the fuck happened, how this happened.

There's no confirmed answer as to why this occurred, right? So I think it is realistic to have your theories, to have good theories, but I resisted just saying, well, this is it. And what's funny is when people get upset about it and say, well, this well who did this well what what you know what was behind this i always say this i always say well okay let's say i i had my rehearsal to say it was russia would that make the movie better for you no uh it would make it like the morning show it's funny that you say that too because last week Amanda and I were talking about the pigeon tunnel the John le Carre documentary

that Errol Morris made I don't know if you've seen this I have not seen it and that one of the kind of core ideas in that movie is that there is no motivation

there is no man behind the curtain there is no room beyond the room that this is chance this is ego this is folly all of the way

the power operates is mysterious and kind of dumb and i like the reading of this movie in some ways if you want it to be that it is not some grand governmental conspiracy just like perhaps it's possible it's a potential explanation of covid something went wrong we don't know what it was we still don't't know. Right. And it affected the entire world. Right. And that,

to me, that's very satisfying as a viewer, but I am kind of, I'm kind of excited about people being like, man, what the fuck? Like, they want the answer too.

Right. That's why I asked you that question. Yeah. Did you feel that way? Did I feel like, man, what the fuck? Yeah. No.

No. Okay. I mean, I'm like a very cynical person too. So I'm like, why do you need the answer? Who cares? Yeah.

Were you inside the feeling of the movie? But what's weird is, I don't think they, they want the answer too. Because I'm telling you, every time I had that conversation with a person who reacted that way, when I would put it to them like that, they were sort of like, yeah, that's not what would... That wouldn't make sense. That wouldn't make sense.

That would be a letdown. That's not what would satisfy. Yeah. Yeah, it would actually make it worse. And so for me, it's the discomfort of not knowing. That's not what would satisfy it. Yeah. Yeah, it would actually make it worse. And so for me, it's the discomfort of not knowing. That's what this movie is about.

And hopefully, that provocation, like I said earlier, sits with them after they've left the theater or stopped or turned it off Netflix or whatever.

And then they kind of come around to it. It's funny making a movie knowing you're going to do that. Weirdly, it's not something I was... I was kind of scared of that, but at the same time, I knew it was the right thing to do. There's no other way to end the film, at least this version of this film.

And I just... It's kind of a crazy thing to go on this endeavor to ask all these amazing talented people to make this movie for you knowing that you're going to piss off like a large section of the audience by the end of the movie I mean it's crazy I love it um do you you want to talk about the ending? yeah I mean I do well I I want to know when you found that ending

in your process second time I read that book really even and threading the the friends

episode through the thing and then you know because I didn't remember until I re-read it there's one mention of it and it's on the very last page.

Yeah. It's just like half a second. Yeah. A mention of Friends? Yeah. Yeah. And it's not, it doesn't end with that. It doesn't end the way the movie is.

No, no, no, no, no. But it's like, there's just like a passing reference to Friends in the library. There is a physical media library. But it is, I mean, it's like mad genius it's really funny like it was we both we saw it together we just started laughing it is also like incredibly haunting and there was something kind of eerie about that theme song yeah of course and i mean you know and it's like incredibly on. So you just know that you're writing towards her gazing up at the season finale of Friends and I'll be there for you. Series finale.

Series finale. No, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The last one. That's a gift, my man. I was going to say, do you want to demythologize it? I mean, that's like a really weird part of your brain, but it's beautiful. Thank you.

Thank you. I don't know what to say. I mean, again, I knew that was going to piss people off. Like, what? You're ending the movie on this little girl watching Friends? But I remember reading the book and loving that character, Rose. She was my favorite. She just, there was something really so earnest and heartfelt and genuine.

And then when I came up with the idea of what if her whole journey is she just wants to watch the last episode of Friends, I just thought there is something sweet about her connection to fictional characters. And again, I can't repeat this enough. This was during pandemic when we're all fucking watching Tiger King or whatever. We needed that that we needed stories we needed yeah i asked you about the parasocial relationship thing for a reason like i think that we have built these i sadly have built these worlds where i have come to rely upon all my

friends who i don't know in the world of cinema and in podcasting as well i love to listen to jam session from time to time you know thanks, catch up with my friends. Thanks so much for that shout out. Yeah. And make those connections because the connect, like also like you get older, you don't stay in touch with people, you move away,

like all these things happen and all of a sudden you're disconnected. In theory, we are the most connected we've ever been and the movie is this great parable about how like,

we're not connected. We're not connected at all. We're not connected to the person who knocks on our door. And so, I thought that was fascinating. But she is connected too. But rachel and all that and there's a and there's a line in the movie because i think it's a double-edged sword right as earnest and as lovely

as i felt for rose and and her relationship to to these fictional characters something that as a movie lover and i think all of us can agree that we have those relationships, and they mean something to us. But there's a line that Ruth says to Amanda where she says, you know, she's describing the show and she says it's nostalgic for a time that never existed. And I remember, because as a kid growing up, like I was like an Egyptian kid and I was born in Jersey, but then my parents weirdly moved us to the South in the 80s, being an Egyptian in the South. Not the best combination. So I was pretty ridiculed, ostracized.

And I remember watching all the sitcoms and all the TV shows and being envious of American life. Because I was raised Muslim. We didn't have Christmas trees or anything like that. But I was so envious. And I just thought, well, you know, I was raised Muslim. We didn't have Christmas trees or anything like that, but I was so envious. And I just thought, well, this is the American dream right here. I want to be part of that culture. You know, I, I, I, and I wasn't allowed to be, it felt like I was, I was so alienated and ostracized by it all.

But as I got older, I realized that wasn't real and that even American families do not live that life. And that is that little double, like whenever you hear people talk about the good old days, I think they're picturing, leave it to Beaver, they're not actually picturing life as it was 50 years ago or whatever. And Chuck Klosterman, who I think, does he come on this show? He does, yeah.

I think he talks a little bit about how we confuse memory and media and how that kind of like influences the way we feel. And there was something interesting about it with regards to this film

that I kind of wanted to explore where are we escaping to what we think was real or are we escaping to a fantasy that was informed by our culture? And is it like a snake eating its own tail? Because why are we telling these stories?

Because we're aspirational about what life should be? Or are we literally just trying to escape to a life that will never be? What do you think it is, right? Because you could make the case that like the Soma for the Mass is ending. It's like legit. Like Rose is the only well-adjusted person at the end of this movie.

So like, did you begrudge her for that? Well, no, you've just verified my life. Like my whole lifestyle. Yeah. So I feel good about that.

What do you think? I guess so. I mean, she can also commune with the animals. You know, she's the only one who understands that.

We share that as well. You feel a connection to the flamingos. We're kind of like a Sventura. I go to the zoo a lot now because of the stage of parent life that I'm in. What's he into, Knox? Infrastructure and transportation. But what animals is he into? I took him to the zoo.

Infrastructure. Listen, my guy, he loves to? Oh, okay. I took him to the zoo. Wow. Okay. Infrastructure. Listen, my guy, he loves a traffic cone. He's running for city council. He loves a traffic cone. Yeah, it was a tough week for him. But he also loves building, so he'll be there to help. Wow, okay. I mean, I'm just saying that because my daughter is super into walruses.

Yeah. Oh, that's cute. But there are no aquariums in New York that have walruses. Or Jersey. I've checked. I've looked. Maybe Long Island. I haven't.

Do you have a Long Island aquarium? There is an aquarium on Long Island. Yeah. Okay. But I do. I was going to tell you that one of my readings of this movie is that you should not go to fucking Long Island because it's a disaster area. Yeah.

That's just the clear take. I was there. Yeah. We shot the movie in Long Island. Okay. What did you make shot the movie in Long Island okay what'd you make of the people of Long Island nice guys

cool people no comment okay anyway continue what's not what animals knocks into I think he tried

to kiss a seal through the glass today that was the report which is very cute yeah I know that ship

has long since sailed but you gotta walk by the flamingos before you get to all the other animals at the L.A. Zoo. Was he into the flamingos? Well, I'm not going anywhere near them. And I was, like, wary of them before seeing this movie.

More so after the movie? But, yeah, no, it's really, they are very sinister. I have a lot of specific questions. The Long Island of this all reminded me. Before we do, like, big picture takeaways, can I do, like, a lightning round? Yeah. Okay, well, so the first one, can I do like a lightning round? Yeah. Okay. Well, so the first one, we're talking about Rose and TV reminded me of this.

So Rose at one point, her TV fascination is not limited to Friends. And in fact, she quotes a story from an episode of the West Wing. Oh, yeah. Do you agree? Well, okay. Okay, tell me. Yeah, go ahead. So, it's like, the structure and moral of the story are the same, but it's a different story. It's a different story?

He falls down a hole in the West Wing episode. You're talking about the parable that the priest tells the president in the West Wing episode? Oh, I thought it was a reference to Leo and Josh. No, no. Oh, it's a different West Wing episode. No, it's a different. Wow, you don't know you're a West Wing episode? Oh, I thought it was a reference to Leo and Josh. Oh, it's a different West Wing episode. Okay. Wow. You don't know you're a West Wing. Excuse me. Sorry, but I was hurting another. Wait, guys, there was a parable in a West Wing episode? But you've heard that parable before, right? Yeah, no, of course. Yeah, but like, okay. I don't think Sorkin repeated that parable. Yes, he does. Well, he does repeat himself was it related to gilbert and sullivan at all no it was like the one i was thinking of was in when josh has the ptsd episodes and then

leo calls in oh i know you're talking you know and then at the end it's like you guys talk about that that's a different at the end by the yeah okay all right okay okay thank you so basically i did i confused my but i didn't really know that you were a full west wing head like that so that's kind of on board with Rose's opinion that's what I was going to ask about okay what do you

how do you feel about Rose's assessment of the West Wing that oh wait what does she say that it's that she only watched

the Sorkins oh yeah of course absolutely yeah I mean did you even bother watching it no and also I think I was in college

so it really yeah who has access to network TV I mean I don't know Sean were you obsessed with I mean you were obsessed with the West mean I don't know Sean were you obsessed with I mean you were obsessed with the West Wing I assumed you were

but were you obsessed more team sports night personally I love sports night too but you wouldn't but I watched it I liked it Ethan Hawk and Josh Harls were at a Knicks game

recently together for Ethan Hawk's birthday and Josh Hamilton was on the other side it looked like a lovely time I like imagining the three of them talking yeah fun for me

then like debating whatever the is going them talking. That's just fun for me. Then like debating whatever is going on with Tibbs' rotations. I probably watched every episode of the show, but I didn't have that kind of like emotional... I was obsessed.

Yeah. Every week it came on. And I still like, I re-watch it on Netflix the way Rose is re-watching. But it was a weird experience to show that I was so committed to watching every week

and probably re-watched episodes just because I loved hearing the dialogue and I loved those characters. But then once Sorkin left... No, it falls off a cliff. I just could not get it off. That was 100%.

This is completely correlated, though, to the media-replacing memory concept that Chuck explores and the relationship that you guys have to those shows and your interest in those shows

finding their way into your work, which is that this is a Netflix movie. I know. Do you notice that on the final frame or the second

and final frame, Rose's finger goes over the Netflix button to hit play? I didn't notice that, but it sure seems like you focused on that. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. Well, it's complicated because it's complicated. Cause I look Netflix. I don't know how many studios would have made this movie, um, at this level. And Netflix is,

they're making challenging films at a, at a good budget. And, but you know, I love the theatrical experience and I I'm really it's a it's a very can it's it's conflict I I don't know I'm really torn about the whole thing I mean David Fincher's movie came out like a few weeks ago and no one was talking about it until I hit Netflix and I haven't by

the way I haven't seen the movie I'm dying to see it it's fucking phenomenal awesome I cannot wait but I don't want to watch it on my iPad I want to I actually saw our friend Andy Greenwald this morning he was like I just booked a ticket

to see The Killer in the movie theater so I appreciate him doing that I mean I ask not just because of that but because it's like a really good year

for Netflix in that way not just because the company is successful and thriving but it's like they actually did year for Netflix in that way. Not just because the company is successful and thriving, but it's like, they actually did make The Killer and Maestro and leave the world behind. And like a lot of movies that I really like. And it does kind of feel like they're the only place doing this at scale.

And so like, did you do it with them? Because this was the only logical place that would make a movie that is challenging like this? No, I mean, look, we had we had other um we had other buyers bidding on it other studios bidding on it but um it just it just made sense with netflix because i think i think you know with that ending i think that we i think i knew where where i might have to be forced to compromise elsewhere and so and, just to be responsible about it, I just didn't know if, for me,

I just didn't know if theatrical, a big rollout like that would work with the type of challenging story like this. And Netflix said all the right things, and they did all the right things, and supported the film, and kind of protected the vision. And so I was lucky to lucky to do it with them, but,

but I'm, you know, I'm like you, Sean, I'm a physical media guy. So it's, it's a very, uh,

it's a very, yeah, I'm in the, I'm very conflicted about the whole thing. I have two pieces of Ethan Hawke's character related physical media, I guess. Ethan did such a fucking good job. He's so good.

He's so funny. Number one, did I notice that he has a 76ers mug there in the corner at the beginning? And would you like to comment on that? While it's living in Brooklyn. And what is that meant to suggest? Mikhail Bridges is Brooklyn. Is it a bikini girl t-shirt that he's wearing later?

We're chortling to one another about that one. We clocked them both, just so you know. Look, I'm not going to comment on why things are in the movie. Was this just for CR? No, no, no.

You can tell us. This is being recorded for hundreds of millions of people who listen to the show. I know, but I prefer the... I think because I'm curious if you're going to... You remember a year ago when I asked you about whether or not you're going to catch something about the production design? About the house? Yeah. Well, no, I wanted to ask more broadly about,

I didn't remember whether I was going to, you asked me if I was going to catch something specific. If you're not bringing it up, then you didn't catch it. And it's interesting because I, you know, one of the things that I do, especially with production design, because production design is so important, like everything that you, when you make a film, when you write something,

when you're working out a scene with the actors, there's always subtext. You never want to explicitly state, you know, what's happening or the theme or anything. Everything should be hidden. I love characters that have secrets. I love characters that have, that are saying something, but feel the exact opposite. I mean, that's where great drama lives, right? And we do the same, but I love doing the same thing with production design.

And production design, like all these little things that you're catching, there is subtext to all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just thought the subtext to the 76ers thing is that you think Philly fans are losers, which is like, I thought,

I didn't think you would mind saying that. Or maybe he's just a process truther, you know? Maybe they got him beat and it worked out. Just like it'll work out for Ethan's character. First of all, I love,

I love when my team beats the Sixers. Yeah, no, I know. You hear about it. That's, I mean,

that's why. It was me giving you an opportunity. Let's go, Knicks. Listeners, they don't realize that during the Jets,

when the Jets destroyed the Eagles a few weeks ago I texted our friends Andy and Chris and they just ignored me it was dead silence

I was able to spend time with them while that was transpiring Sean I don't have your number I want to I'll send it to you just loop me in a chain with Julia

and we'll get it going exactly no no no knock on the Philly fans. I love that. Wait, so what's the production design? What is the note?

Well, I'm not... You didn't catch it. Okay, well, I'll see. All right. You gotta watch it again. Well, I'm not done. So I did want to ask logistically, and I think you told this before,

but now that I've seen the movie, you found the house, and that's a real house. I found the house. I turned to my production designer, and I say, build that house. Right, exactly. Because then you had to build it

to be able to do all of this. Also, a control freak okay I cannot shoot on location I hate shooting on location oh interesting so was any of that filmed there no I had to be right yeah but like we did build a pool on on the soundstage wow nice oh that works I mean I'm I'm crazy I do I like to be very what What happens to a pool after... Little baby Kubrick stuff going on here. Your own little Shepperton studios. How wonderful. Well, we didn't build the full...

It was like an illusion that it looked deep, but it wasn't really a full bloom. I love it. That's fucking awesome. But do you understand how when you shoot on location, especially a house like that with tons of windows, you cannot control the lighting. There's no sense of continuity. And you can't put the camera wherever you want.

It's just a nightmare. I don't know how people do it. I'm not as good as those directors. I need to be in a safe place, like a soundstage. Okay. With total control. Did you like making a movie? I like prep.

I like post. So no. I fucking hate production a movie? I like prep. I like post. So no. I fucking hate production. You said that last time. But that's when you're with Julia. But movie versus... Wait, wait, wait. Let me put it this way.

Coming to set and working with the cast is amazing because that's the heart. That's everything. It all begins and starts with... all begins and ends with them. But it's just real life gets in the way. And just things aren't, the camera can't go there.

And the lighting is off. And it's a lot of troubleshooting. You think we should just replace everybody with AI? What do you think is the solution there? Just AI actors, AI sets. If only we could pull that off somehow. I mean more like relative to doing robot or homecoming or gas.

In other words, not making a serialized television show, but making something that is more contained, more compact in its execution. I mean, I like it because I can be, like I can finish the story in one experience, whereas Robot was across four years. I mean, Homecoming, I treated it like a movie in the shooting of it.

I don't believe in... It's not like I shot 10 hours and was like, let's just cut it up forever. I still believed in that. If you're going to do a television series, you got to embrace the episodic format, right? So each episode needed to really make sense.

But I, look, with Robot and with Homecoming, I still mixed on a big soundstage. I still filmed for a big theatrical experience, even though I know

people are going to fucking watch it on their, you know, phones. And I think it's important. I think adding details like that, I mean, like, that cup is not that big, the 76ers cup. No no but i clocked it immediately there was a lovely blue in that room by the way i wanted to ask your production designer about that just for my own life um so i just nice you will hire the production designer no no just so you know

maybe talk me through the cut like the color schemes yeah yeah yeah but i think i think it matters when you put all these details in regardless of how squeezed and compressed it gets. Now I feel like I failed. I feel like there's a trickle down. But I didn't notice the thing. You did kind of. I was a little disappointed. Because I thought you were going to like, when you would DM me, I thought you were going to mention them and you didn't.

Okay. Watch it again. I will. You'll catch it. I mean, it was a lot to take in all at once. And I was very excited. You know? Yeah. Do you think you'll make more movies? I mean, it was a lot to take in all at once, and I was very excited. You know? Yeah.

Do you think you'll make more movies? I mean, it's funny. I just did an interview this morning because they asked me about the state of TV. I think TV is going to go through a contraction. I don't think that's a secret anymore. strikes and the double strikes i um and sort of the way this era this i guess golden age of era where they pumped money into making the next game of thrones um i see that networks are now saying why don't we make the next jury duty which was fucking fantastic and great and really cheap or The Bear, which is not as expensive as House of Dragon or Reservation Dogs.

I can go on and on. And I think TV is going to start going back to less serialized and more sort of these procedural situational shows. And I'm not necessarily that interested in that. So I don't know if they continue to want to make straight serialized television series with one story that's going across

multiple seasons. I'm game, but I don't know about I'm not going to do a situational series. Not sitcom necessarily, but a you know what I mean? Like a workplace drama or anything like that. That's just not my bag. I really feel like when I tell a story, I want to know what the ending is.

I want to know what the middle is, and I want to be building towards something. Sounds like movies are a great opportunity. Yeah, yeah. Then you can come on the big picture more. Absolutely. Are movies back? This has been a great... I mean, the I mean I haven't

the problem is I haven't fucking seen anything right? you guys have seen I didn't get to be fancy like a man that go to Venice well you were invited and

well I don't by me I don't remember by me you know so we would have loved to have you but I keep hearing all these great movies

this is a great year right? it's a great year yeah it's a great year I mean a lot of it feels like they kicked a bunch of stuff down the road because of COVID. So a lot of masters have movies this year, which is unusual. Yeah.

Yeah. I think movies are back, and I'm here for it. I hope the theatrical component kicks in. I'm a little bummed about Killers not doing that well. I don't know if that's the Apple piece of it. I know a lot of friends who have not seen it yet. This is a new Martin Scorsese movie. How many of you have not seen it yet?

And their response is, I'm waiting for it to go on Apple. Right. I mean, I think that that's why. I mean, it's a big reason why. Another reason why is that it's a three and a half hour film that is just tremendously depressing. Yeah, but Oppenheimer made almost a billion dollars. And it's a big reason why. Another reason why is that it's a three and a half hour film that is just tremendously depressing. Yeah, but Oppenheimer made almost a billion dollars.

And it's a three hour movie. Wait, IMAX and young people. I saw Killers at IMAX. Why aren't young people seeing Killers of the Flower Moon? Why do you, now we're just going off. Bobby, why aren't young people seeing Killers of the Flower Moon? Bobby liked Killers. Bobby loved Killers.

Listen, Bobby's at the movies every night. Bobby is keeping theatrical alive. What did you cancel to do this interview today? What movie did I cancel? On the waterfront on 35. Oh, God. You got to see. Where were you going to see that?

Film Forum? Village East. Bobby's at Village East like every night. He's not hanging out with us. He's having a repertory. I'm crushing it. That used to just be a regular theater. Is that just repertory now?

It's owned by Angelica. It's like 50-50, right? Isn't it like some new stuff and some old stuff? Yeah. They show a lot of Kubrick on the film there,

which is nice because I haven't seen any of that stuff in theaters because I'm a child compared to, or I guess I am the representative of the children generation.

Don't you dare say that. I stopped myself. Was it Barry Linden you went to see and then they had a problem with the print and then? stopped myself. Was it Barry Linden you went to see? And then they had a problem with the print. Yeah, but Barry Linden in the theater was amazing. What a great experience. But I liked all the young people behind you yelling about having to see Barry Linden on digital.

They were really upset by that. I didn't know it mattered so much to them. Wait, but have you seen On the Waterfront? No, no, never seen it. Man, you should have skipped this part. You should have seen. I never skip the big picture. That's what I do.

I post. I show up. Why didn't people come see Killers of the Flower Moon? I honestly do think that it was because of the dumb discourse over the length.

And I think that just But why didn't that happen over Oppenheimer? I think that there is a different kind of expectation for a Scorsese movie versus an Owen movie. And that there is a different kind of expectation for a Scorsese movie versus an Nolan movie. And that there is a kind of propulsiveness in the action filmmaking of Oppenheimer that

maybe it doesn't actually deliver. Uh-oh. Here we go. There was expectation. All right. Just... I... I know.

I know. I was... You guys can get fucked right off. I was riveted from frame one of Killers. I'm not saying I didn't feel the length. I felt the length, but I was not bored at all. It's not a,

it's not, it's a, it's an inversion of Scorsese movies. I mean, it is almost purposefully like demythologizing, unpacking, unglamorizing a lot of the things that he leans on, I think very purposefully.

And so because of that, part of it is that it's just like, what is the elevator pitch? Someone asked me the other day why should you go see killers of the flower moon and i was like because it's a new martin scorsese movie that's obviously the elevator pitch but if that doesn't mean something to someone then what is the elevator pitch for nolan it's like there's nolan heads right just like there's scorsese heads but it's also like oppenheimer they blow up the bomb that's why people went this happens like where were the note where were the scorsese heads for silence they weren't there like yeah when he makes a more contemplative spiritual movie

but this audiences don't show up i guess but i i see what you're saying i this isn't this isn't that though it wasn't a contemplative quiet no i mean there's a lot of violence and terror oh man i was on the edge of my seat i was not like leaning back and no it's very philosophizing about it's stressful it's just not um i don't know i was engaged i i i felt like it's not wolf of wall street you know you can't go in and confuse the message of that movie like let's go let's go party you know dumb people won't enjoy it yeah it's like maybe that's the secret i mean can I tell you something? Like, for me, the hope that I have in the theatrical experience,

maybe Bobby can speak to this because I have no fucking clue about this movie at all. I haven't seen it. I don't understand it. But what's it called? Five Nights at Freddy's. Oh, boy. We've all seen it. I'm too old for that.

Have you seen it, Bob? You haven't seen it yet. Okay, but Amanda and I have seen it. Okay. I don't think you guys liked it, Bob? You haven't seen it yet. Okay, but Amanda and I have seen it. Okay. I don't think you guys liked it, right? No. No, it's bad. Okay. But it made like a ridiculous amount of money.

And it was on Peacock. Yeah. While it was in theaters. And it made a ridiculous amount of money. So clearly the hunger is there for people to go to the theaters, even if the option to stay at home is there i mean this is like my big current like active theory about what's going on with movies is that people are just looking for something that they have wanted but hadn't known that it could be a movie that super mario brothers is a is a version of that that nolan telling the story of jay robert oppenheimer is a version of that like it's not barbie is obviously like the pinnacle of that this year. Never seen it before, but it's something I understand.

Just like there are thousands and thousands of people who've played Five Nights at Freddy's, the video game. And I love the idea of being able to see a movie version of it. It was a video game. It was a video game. I thought it was like an app. It was a video game. I mean, it could have been an app. But wasn't it, don't you play it on your phone, Bobby?

I think it's more on your computer. I honestly don't know. I think it is computer-based yeah like pc this is you know there are a lot of young people listening to us and we're just like these people should be just yeah sealed up inside of a barrel down a mountain yeah zach spoke to a class of students like of undergrads oh yeah and they the first thing they said to him was or like the third thing they said to him was like hey they say we don't listen to the big picture but we listen to the big picture and it was a bunch of like 19 year olds yeah that's nice i think they now just listen to make fun of us yeah i don't know what we're talking about but i think that movie did

well in part for that reason um because there was like there was a world of expectation around it and maybe the same way there is with like you adapted a book and there are people who are like oh wonder what he's gonna do with that book yeah that book was a big hit like julia's waiter yeah but the problem is is that and i don't know if this is um are they going to see it in theaters see and and like look at look at what happened the killer nobody saw it in theaters i mean i don't know that we actually don't know we don't know you're right i saw it in a three quarters full alamo draft house so so I was in New York City and I looked at

Lincoln Center and the theater was empty on opening night and I ended up not being able to go but a new David Fincher movie opening night

and it's basically empty it's at one of the big theaters in New York that's the other thing is that we had the good fortune

of seeing your movie in a movie theater I mean I demanded that because I did not want to start sending links because, you know, they could put it on your Netflix account.

But I really, you know, and I hope people, look, the movie comes out in my opinion, November 22nd in theaters. Ipik.

You can go to Ipik and see it. I like the Ipik. Oh, that's fun. You can go to Lemley's and see it. I don't know if that's around the country, but yeah, you should see it in a theater I pick oh that's fine you can go to Lemley's and see it I don't know if that's around the country

but but yeah you should see it in a theater theaters are great it sounds great in a theater it'll sound better

in a theater trust me see it in theaters do you have any closing questions or thoughts for Sam we gotta let him go so you think

I was okay with Julia I didn't embarrass you you did not embarrass me I actually felt like you thought I was okay with Julia? I didn't embarrass you? You did not embarrass me. I actually felt like you were withholding too much. Well, I was trying to be respectful and embarrassing four people. That's all you asked me about a year ago. Well, we only had 15 minutes, you know? I mean, that is true.

But I was ready. I saved you there. I really appreciate you. That was a great layup. No, I wish you had done more. And thank you so much. I was going to bring you there I really appreciate you that was a great layup no I wish you had done more and thank you so much I was gonna bring up

the Julia Roberts Hall of Fame I know but you know probably better that you didn't do it well I would have liked to ask her I was gonna invite her

on the romcom I wanted to ask her all about Mary Riley you know I had a lot of questions about that you know another I would like to talk to her about romantic

comedies I mean does she like even watch romantic comedies do you know she does alright maybe next time. She's a movie lover. Guys, I'm telling you.

That's why she likes this podcast. I like to think that the episode she listened to is the one about Five Nights at Freddy's. I like this world where Sam is shadow producing big picture. He's like, I'm inviting myself and Julia Roberts on different episodes. No, no, no. That's great. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that.

I don't want to do that. I feel like I did that with The Watch and I feel like I've... No, no, no. You are welcome. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. I don't want to do that. I feel like I did that with the watch, and I feel like I've... No, no, no. You are welcome, frankly, on any Ringer podcast. Do you want to go on sports card nonsense? We would happily have you.

I don't know what that is. Whatever happened to JMO, that I would do. That is... It's been active. I know it's... All right. Program it right now.

What do you want it to be? What do you want to talk about right now on JMO? I know you guys are just using it as an inside joke, and it's a long-running inside joke, but it has to be real. It's not true. It's real. It's got to be real. No, manifest it, Sean. Chris and I were having a chat about JMO just recently. Let me see if I can find here what our discussion points were.

By the way, just so you know, when we get sued, all of these, like they will just search JMO. Sued for what? And then those are the text messages. Being fucking awesome? Can you get sued for that? Have you ever heard of the First Amendment, Amanda? I know, guys. But that doesn't mean they can't be read in court.

Yeah, I can't find what we were discussing. I'm sure it was really important. I would say that the- Was it about Joe Biden learning about artificial intelligence? That didn't come up? Watching the Mission Impossible movie? I mean, there have been so many layouts for JMO. The House Speaker election was like, I mean, we just, it was mana.

It was unbelievable the time we had on that. Please manifest it. Even if it's a one-off big picture special. We need a rotating cast of third chairs. So here's who's in the third chair. Amanda is in the third chair rotating. Sam is in the third chair. Also, you said I got to do like a woman report on Wednesdays. Right. Gals talk. Yeah.

Woman crush Wednesday on JMO. And then the final third chair, obviously Hunter Biden. Hunter Biden will be the final third chair. Yeah, that'll be great. Okay. It'll just be really exciting.

Sam, thank you. Thank you. So great to see you. Congratulations. Congratulations, man. You've nailed it. Before we wrap up, Sam,

what's the last great thing you've seen? So, I've never seen this movie. I don't know why it's slipped through my fingers all these years, but I finally saw

Dirty Harry. Did you ever see Dirty Harry? Yeah, sure. Amanda? Yeah, sure. Amanda? Yeah, a long time ago. I gotta say, I loved it, but I have to say,

it really made me think of Fincher a lot. I wonder if Fincher, who is it, Don Siegel? Is that the- It's Don Siegel? Yeah. Well, it takes place in San Francisco, which is, of course,

where you're to where Fincher's from. The quick pans and the tilt, it was very Fincher-esque. And I was like wow this is the first time i've seen something because i usually to me fincher is this very unique artist that i whenever i see a film of his i'm like man he's really his own kind of filmmaker but that was the first time i saw a movie where it really struck me that this could be an inspiration point for fincher i know he talks a lot about Chinatown being an inspiration point, but I never see like

the aesthetic similarities. But with this, with Dirty Harry, it really, I just, I saw Fincher. Here is a quote from David Fincher.

The director recalls going to Netflix before they began production on The Killer and telling them, I'm going to do it stripped down. This is a Don Siegel movie.

Oh. It's a fucking Michael Winner movie. It's Charlie Berrick get Carter the mechanic. Wow. So you located something accurate.

Dirty Harry is great. It is a fascist document but it is it is a very entertaining and very smart movie. Yeah. Do you have now I want to go down

a Don Siegel rabbit hole. Do you have a Don Siegel movie that I should watch next? The Killers is amazing. Okay. From 1964. I would highly recommend that. I mean, there are

quite a few. He's made some, I mean, Charlie Varick is a good kind of follow-up, I think, to that. That's a really good one.

Walter Matthau plays a bank robber. Very good movie. There's a bunch of good ones. This is a long discussion point. You know, you

really need to ask is Quentin Tarantino. He's the master of Don Siegel. He really gets Don Siegel. I don't know why he has eluded me

all these years, but now I'm excited. He's got some good ones. He's got some stinkers, but they all do in the 60s and 70s. You know, it's tough. They were making a lot of stuff. Yeah, no, no.

You know, I love to do like a completist filmography thing. So now I got my new subject. So I'm excited. No stinkers for Sam Esmail, though. Sam, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you to Julia Roberts and Sam Esmail

and thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode. We'll be back Wednesday for a double dip into two of the year's best films Pomdor Winter

Anatomy of a Fall and Hayao Miyazaki's long awaited return, The Boy and the Heron. We'll see you then.