The Big Picture - ‘King Richard’ and Top 5 Sports Movies With Bill Simmons

Episode Date: November 19, 2021

With Will Smith in the center of the frame, ‘King Richard’ has garnered a lot of Oscars buzz. Now that the film is in theaters and on HBO Max, we talk about what makes it a throwback sports movie���and ultimately a big success—before sharing our top five sports movies (1:00). Then, Sean is joined by ‘King Richard’ director Reinaldo Marcus Green to discuss how he became involved in the project, working closely with Will Smith, and the lineage of sports movies that influenced his approach to directing this film (1:17:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Bill Simmons and Reinaldo Marcus Green Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringer Films and HBO's Jagged is the next installment of the Music Box series, taking you to 1995 when a 21-year-old Alanis Morissette burst onto the music scene. With never-before-seen archival material and an in-depth interview with Alanis herself, Jagged explores her beginnings as a young Canadian pop star, the rocky paths she faced navigating the male-dominated music industry, and the glass ceiling she shattered on her journey to becoming the international icon and empowered artist she is today. Watch or stream Jagged on HBO or HBO Max this Thursday, November 18th. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about King

Richard, Will Smith, and sports movies. Later in today's episode, you can hear a conversation I had with King Richard director Ronaldo Marcus Green. I hope you'll stick around for that. But first, let's talk about King Richard and sports movies with the erstwhile sports guy himself, Bill Simmons. Bill, welcome back to the show. Good to see both of you, as always. Let's start with King Richard. Huge movie. B.S., you saw it this week in theaters.

Amanda, you saw it a couple of weeks ago. It's obviously been touted as an Oscar contender for a couple of months now. Will Smith right at the center of the frame starring as Richard Williams, father of Venus and Serena. The movie essentially tracks him raising them in Compton in the 1990s,

along with their mother Orsine and their sisters. Bill, I'll start with you. What'd you think of King Richard? Incredibly well acted. Yeah. Really manipulative. I was in the whole time. My big takeaway was that I kind of had forgotten how incredible the Williams sister story is.

And, you know, we did a nine for nine documentary about them in 2013 called Venus Versus that hit a little bit, but it was only an hour. It didn't really go into it. I think they've been in our lives for so long that the genesis of it, I had just kind of forgotten. And this was manipulated by the media in a lot of ways, but the perception of Richard Williams in the nineties was that he was a lunatic dad and it was the era of the lunatic dads. And we saw it in tennis and all these other sports. And it was the first time people really started writing about it and there were bad ones. And he just seemed like kind of a me, me, me kind of dad. And what you realize in this movie is that there was a lot more to it, which is the best kind of movies or documentaries about real life stuff are the ones that kind of make you rethink what you thought about stuff and why you thought the certain ways.

And for me, that was it. I thought the actors, Will Smith, his wife and the two daughters and Bernthal, those five, I love Tony Goldwyn. All of the key parts were really all at the top of their games. And that's why it was so much fun for me. Yeah, Anjanue Ellis as Orsi and the mom and Sinia Sidney and Demi Singleton,

who, Bill, you may have recognized from Showbiz Kids, the documentary that we worked on with Alex Winter, who was a young girl trying to get jobs in the middle of that documentary. And lo and behold, she's playing Serena Williams in a movie

two years later. Unbelievable stuff. Amanda, you're a hardcore tennis fan and a hardcore Serena fan. So what do you make of it? And a hardcore Will Smith fan. That's right. And a hardcore biopic fan. I'm the only person who will defend the manipulative genre. I mean, I absolutely love this. I wept multiple times, which as we were putting together our sports movie list, which we'll talk about later, that for me is the key determinant. If I cry at least three times during a movie,

like then we know it's working. We know I'm being successfully manipulated to Bill's point. Well, to be fair, you probably are more easily crying these days. But in this case, I'm a cyborg and I almost cried twice. Like I was kind of looking around. My eyes were getting moist a couple of times. I mean, that is very true. But to your point about kind of looking around my eyes for getting voiced a couple of times. I mean, that is very true.

But to your point about kind of forgetting the first decade of the Williams sisters career, because it has been decades at this point. And I'm a few years younger than Serena and Venus and have always been a tennis fan, if not a tennis player. My parents tried so hard and didn't really take. So I remember watching them as a young woman and watching them transform this sport. And I think in the last 10 years, as they've become the most dominant athletes in the sport, I was taking them for granted. And I was taking just the, the excitement and the improbability of what they achieved. Like I had kind of forgotten just like you, Bill. And so for it to be, um, recreated with such heart and also precision, you know,

down to like, I remember, you know, specific things that they wore or specific matches. I also think, by the way, the tennis in this movie is really great. And I mean, it can be hard to make tennis exciting even in, you know, real life. Well, there's a reason for that, though. I think there's some CGI. Yeah. And I think that's been the biggest problem with tennis movies over the years was that it was so hard to recreate how realistic the tennis had to be. In this case, I think they were doing a lot of chicanery with the tennis in a good way to make

it seem more realistic. Yeah. And a lot of it, like the quick cutting and everything, but it was exciting. Yeah, totally. At least you were into the sport of it, which I can't really say for most tennis movies. So I was completely delighted. It had a real like mid-90s wholesome sports movie vibe to it that is what I grew up on. And I just am always ready to welcome back. Yeah, that was part of why I wanted you to be on the show, Bill, is because I finished watching the movie and I was like, damn, this is a real throwback.

This feels like a movie that could have come out in 1996 in a very good way. We don't get a ton of stuff like this. And it feels like it happened because Will Smith maybe is having some feelings about fatherhood and his own father. And he wrote this memoir

that he's been on the campaign trail talking about recently. And I had the same reaction that you did, Bill, to the Richard Williams story. My perception of him as not a serious tennis fan, I don't know a ton

about the Williams sisters and their story. My perception of him was crazy dad. That was really all I knew, is this guy was pushing himself too much into the center of the frame and pushing his kids too hard. And it's clear that obviously the film is kind of filtering their perspective through Serena and Venus, who are executive producers on the movie. But it seems like Will and the filmmakers wanted to shift the way we see them and the way that we see their story like I didn't know anything about what he encouraged them to do how he trained them to practice what that world of like kind of white tennis kits is like where you have to kind of break into this country club society to succeed

in the space so all of that was pretty revelatory for me. And I think will be for most people who are not hardcore tennis people, fair to say. To me, it's less of a sports movie and more a parent movie. And I think that's why it resonated me with the most because now that's what was getting me choked up a couple of times during the thing, because I think when you have a kid who's a good athlete and I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours driving my daughter to soccer practice, driving her to games and all these things. And it's just at some point, it's a real, real, real crazy commitment and it's a real impact on your life. And at some point you have to believe in your kid in some way. Like, can my kid play sports

in high school? Can my kid play sports in college potentially? Can my kid play sports in college potentially? Can my kid in this case be a great tennis player? And that was what really resonated me with the most is like the sacrifices that he made for these two daughters and the belief that he had when he really shouldn't have believed it because at that point, and the movie makes this point really, really smartly and it doesn't hit you over the head with it, but it makes it a couple times in really smart ways about this was an elite sport controlled by rich white people

and country clubs and money. And to get really good at this, you had to spend $100,000 a year. You had to get in with the right coaches and you had to go to juniors. You had to travel. That's the problem with all youth sports, to be honest. Like that's the problem with soccer.

Soccer is expensive. And that's why in California, like the club teams, it can cost like 15,000 a year just to have your 10-year-old kid driving around and going to these different tournaments and flying to different places, stuff like that. That movie hit this really well. And at some point, if he doesn't believe in his kids, they don't happen. We don't know who either of them are,

you know, and he's got the five daughters. I think it does a good job with the wife kind of throwing it in him. That kitchen scene to me is the most important scene in the movie because you have these relationships in sports movies. I'm sorry, I'm rambling. Where the wife or the girlfriend always ends up being the wet blanket. And you have your hero. It's always a male. It's the dad, it's the coach, it's the person who believes, and he's the only one who can see it. And then you have the female come in and it's always like, she's either putting him down or she doesn't believe in him. Or if she does believe him, you just kind of see her smiling

as she's like baking cookies in the kitchen, but isn't really having... This one, she goes at him. She's an equal. She resents that he doesn't respect the sacrifices that she made. And she calls him out. And the kitchen scene to me,

that scene and the scene when he talks to Venus at the end are the two most important scenes. If you don't have those two scenes, this is a generic sports movie and it just pushes it to another level. It's interesting because I think audiences don't have the same relationship to Anjanue Ellis that they do to Will Smith too.

So when that scene comes, she has been kind of playing the back for the first two thirds of the movie more or less. And then she takes over really and grabs that scene by the balls. They plant the breadcrumbs though because in that scene when he drives away and she stops him, it's like, oh, all right.

So he's not just running amok here. Like she's part of this too. And then like the great training montage that there's Venus and the Tony Goldwyn character, but then they're cutting to the Oracene character and Serena on the home courts. You know, they're like, they're dotting it in. And in what I think is a pretty smart way.

It's a really important performance because you also have to stand toe-to-toe with Will and kind of cut him down a couple notches. He's the hero of the movie and he's a flawed guy. And I think a lot of times with these sports movies, the hero, the flaws are usually like he sneaks cigarettes outside the locker room and stuff like that.

This guy had real flaws and they leaned into him. It made me nervous that Serena and Venus were the EPs of the movie. Because you'd think like, oh man, this is going to be a sugarcoating. And I don't feel like it was. I didn't think so either. I thought it was pretty evenly handled. And the fact that he had been unfaithful or he had had other struggles. And he clearly has some ego issues that he's kind of constantly working through

with relationships with his family. Let's talk about Will a little bit. Because I feel like this is a really interesting decision for Will, because Will is known as a movie star who is almost scientific in the way that he picks parts. He analyzes what's going to work at the box office. He thinks a lot about what audiences want. This has been reported a lot over the years, sometimes to his own detriment. Sometimes it feels like he overthinks things, has famously passed on The Matrix and Django Unchained

and all these other movies that he frankly would have been great in. And Richard Williams is kind of like Will in that respect. You know, he has this whole plan for how to get his kids going. He's got the videotapes. He knows which coaches to identify and to sit down with and sell,

but he doesn't always know how to get it across the line. And can see will like relating in a very specific way to richard williams amanda as um as will smith's number one fan what did what did you think of him just doing this movie in the first place and and also his performance well i think the choice to make the movie is kind of like a will smith calculus that paid off this is This is like a four quadrant down the middle. He's playing like the visionary dad who had this incredible success story with the two greatest tennis players currently living, probably. I would argue. I don't want to get into that debate, honestly.

I see Bill staring at me and I just can't. No, I think you're right. Yeah. I agree with you. I was just like, Sean's going to start making, taunting me with Novak things. And I just like, no, this is a happy space. Novak Djokovic is the greatest men's tennis player of all time. All right, all right.

Settle down. But this is, this is like a, like a holiday classic throwback family can take everyone movie, which I think Will Smith has like been looking for those and hasn't always made the right choices or those haven't always panned out. But I think the other interesting choice is actually Will Smith's performance, which is slightly more muted than maybe you expect for, I don't want to say muted because it's not muted at all. It's full charisma, but he's not like on 11 in terms of being like the mega like star shining brightest in every scene. And, you know, even kind of his voice, which, and, and like his cadence, which is a bit softer. And he's a little purposefully restrained

with a touch of Ted Lasso energy, which I really enjoy. At some point, I just realized that all I want from a movie is Will Smith singing The Gambler in an RV. That's it. I'm thrilled. But you could see someone else really going going for broke with this being like, this is my time to shine and be like the charisma visionary King. And I, I thought it really worked. I think it is kind of true to Richard Williams is like actual persona a bit, but you could see someone else just working it a little too hard. Yeah.

I felt like he was playing a character and that he wasn't Will Smith. And my, the biggest issue with Ali was I always felt like he was Will Smith playing Ali. And sometimes when you have the truly famous A-plus listers, it's really hard to separate the actor from the character. They can't lose themselves in it. I think it's something that Denzel has struggled with over the years. And then when it happens, you know kind of when he loses it

versus where I'm like, I'm watching Denzel. Cruise, same thing. Sometimes you can almost be too famous. It's something Russell Crowe was able to do really well where he can kind of lose himself in different roles.

Will Smith, we've known for 30 plus years at this point. He's Will Smith. I felt like he was Richard Williams in this movie. It was like there was, he was basically playing

the pursuit of happiness dad, a little older. But his posture, I thought, was really interesting. How he kind of leaned forward and almost didn't look like he had all of his marbles. The way he played him, like he was a little off. He had the accent. His lower

teeth were kind of sticking out. And I never felt like it was Will Smith. I always felt like it was a character in the movie that I was really enjoying. He occupies this unusual space where he takes acting quite seriously, going all the way back to Six Degrees of Separation, but he's selling movies constantly on his fame and charisma, right? He's doing the Robert Redford thing, the Paul Newman thing. He doesn't wear prosthetics. He doesn't change his hair. He doesn't transform.

Russell Crowe transforms all the time. He gains 40 pounds. He dyes his hair white so that he can be in the insider. This is one of the first times really, even more so than Ali, where you're right, Bill, you see the posture,

you see the teeth, the voice that he's using is very unusual. He's really trying to capture Richard Williams' cadence. Sounds like him. He does. He sounds just like him.

It's a transformation, right? So like, of course, this is an Oscar contender. It's a Denzel level performance. Say it, Sean. This is like, this would be like 15 years ago. I think Denzel is doing this. And the difference with having Will Smith here versus like Sterling K. Brown, who I think is an

awesome actor, is it just wouldn't have felt like as big of a movie. You needed one person who feels like a megawatt star that kind of blesses this as a monster movie. You know who I thought of really when I was watching it? I was like, 15 years ago, this would have been Forrest Whitaker. This would have been a great Forrest Whitaker part. It would have been a very, very good movie, but it would not have felt as noisy and as important as this movie does. Amanda, do you get the sense that there's anticipation for this? How do we even know if a movie like this works? Because it's going to be on HBO Max. It's going to be in movie theaters. I think there is an awareness. I think people in my life who aren't you and Bill know

that Will Smith in the Serena Williams movie is happening. And that's kind of how it's been described, like the civilians in my life. And obviously, I mean, Will Smith on the press tour of all press tours, which just, I accept. Thank you, keep it coming. So, and the commercials and everything, but there is an awareness of it because that's easy to sell, right?

Will Smith, Serena Williams, two people you've still heard of who are very famous. Well, and on top of it, Serena has such an interesting role in this movie. Yeah. As this is a movie more about Venus than Serena. And Serena's, I'm always fascinated by sisters in movies and they handle the dynamic with them really well. There's a little resentment, you know, at a couple of points. These kids are just really happy, which I think is intentional. I actually find it hard to believe that any kids are this happy. Having kids myself and knowing a lot of people with kids, kids aren't a hundred percent this happy, but I think that was really

important to them because I think they wanted to get the message out like, yeah, you guys were looking at us from afar, but this was a really close-knit, tight family that cared about each other and the type of family that's not represented enough in movies and TV shows. So the moments when Serena kind of goes off a little bit, off of the plan and is looking at her dad a little sideways. Or is that when she's staring out at the stadium that time and she's kind of bummed it's not her. It feels really authentic because,

you know, you feel like this was such a happy family and it's, you could see her maybe going sideways. I mean, the biggest loser of this movie is Capriati. Yes. Yes. I was wondering like what it would be like to,

well, I was wondering what it'd be like to be Capriati watching this movie and she becomes like the cautionary tale. And it's kind of brutal, but it's not inaccurate because she was kind of the lost star of the last 30 years on the female side. Yeah, the shape of it, it almost feels like it's laying track

for the Serena sequel. You know, like there's a, you could see a world in which they do another two-hour movie about Serena. And that dynamic between Venus and Serena was fascinating. And we watched that in public where she moved past her older sister and became the more decorated, the more powerful, the better player. And so that actually would be for an interesting movie too. That was the worst part of this though. But that was the worst part of the whole Venus-Serena thing is the few years when they were kind of even and they would play

each other constantly and it never felt like either of them was going 100% all out. Right. Remember that people were talking about are these matches arranged?

Right, right, right. Do they decide who wins beforehand? Parse the dynamic, yeah. It was just not fun to watch them play each other. It wasn't. It really wasn't.

There was something missing from it and I think at some point that became part of the narrative with them is like, these people are dominant. It's not fun to watch them play each other. What happened to women's tennis? This was a real angle, but it was because they were both so great. One other thing I wanted to note about this movie, and part of the reason that I think it looks so good is, you know, Ronaldo Marcus Green, really good young director, but it's shot by Robert Ellsworth,

who is PTA's longtime cinematographer, dude who works with the Gilroy brothers on a lot of their movies. This is like an OG, hardcore decorated cinematographer shooting sports. And that's the other thing is a lot of sports movies are not necessarily the most well-funded movies. They don't necessarily have the hugest movie stars anymore.

They don't get people like Ellsworth them and i think you know especially when you see uh serena and venus getting into the like more upper echelons of tournaments and then of course that final like showcase sequence that final match at the end of the end of the movie it just looks amazing it looks legitimately really really good for a movie like this and it feels like something that is kind of slipping between our fingers with sports movies these days. I was glad they shit on Sicario a little bit in the last 15 minutes. Never really liked her.

The games been shit. Although it was smart. She froze the kid out. Yeah. But that's so agonizing and it keeps going and going. My biggest flaw with this movie was actually the last 20 minutes because I thought the final tennis scene was too long. And I actually, I think when you're talking about it

compared to the other great sports movie scenes, that movie, the lead up to the 10-minute break and then what happens after, it just felt too long to me. And I think if you're comparing it to the other great sports movies that we've had, that scene has to be lights out. That has to be a scene I want to rewatch over and over again. And I didn't feel like that totally got there. I actually would have played up the scene when she wins the first round and maybe not spend as much time on the Sanchez-Vicario part. But the key part was that Will Smith comes out from the bowels of the stadium,

and he comes in, and he realizes he has to be there for his kid. I just felt like it was a little too long. That was probably my biggest flaw of this movie. Yeah, I think it is a little long. I like that sequence a lot, but the movie does, as all of these movies, frankly, are.

They're all like two hours and 15 minutes when they should be two hours, but we're willing to forgive a movie star-produced film like this. Could you have seen this as the 10-episode Netflix show? Yeah, but wouldn't it have just felt like a little bit lower production value, a little bit less important?

Like sports movies are all about that crescendo, that big moment that you're waiting for, that exultation. And you don't get that on a show, right? Yeah, I'm with you. I think it could have gone in that direction though because there's a lot of meat on this bone, man. There is.

I even Bernthal's tennis Academy, like that whole world that could have been like three episodes. I was so into it. I was like, who are the other players? They just dropped Sampras and McEnroe in here at one part. There's like a throwaway line about antibiotic at the, the Rigmacy Academy.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Like for the real tennis fans there was some good stuff even yeah even we see capriati early and it's like oh boy we'll be we'll be seeing you kind of we could they catch her at the peak before it starts to flip but i thought they did a good job of that stuff i mean not to mention you could have just done three or four episodes in 90s compton i mean 90s compton that's like the epicenter of a certain kind of cultural movement and that's been talked about a lot

in Serena's story. Can we just talk about Bernthal really quick? I mean, twist my arm. I just fucking love this guy every time he shows up in something now and this, whatever he's doing, the weird Philly accent and is just going for it full.

He's like me and Will Smith are in a buddy cop comedy and nobody knows it. Like I am going to do everything I can to steal this's like me and Will Smith are in a buddy cop comedy and nobody knows it. Like I am going to do everything I can to steal this movie out from under Will Smith. I just, I loved him and I thought he was phenomenal. He's funny and Tony Goldwyn's funny and you need a little levity and some humor in this. And I'm with you, Bernthal. This is a side of Bernthal we haven't seen. He's usually, you know, the cop who got double crossed or like the security guard, who's the last guy standing or whatever, the guy in the walking dead. We haven't seen like the

lighter, funny Bernthal, but I'm here for it. I'm just always glad to see him because I know that the two of you and Chris Ryan will just love the movie. You know, it's just like, it's like a very easy litmus test for me. And I'm like, oh great. Okay. So I got to study this so I can talk to my friends, but I thought he was great in it. I also really liked the golf cart bit. The very subtle jokes where it shows up two scenes later and it's just fully Richard Williams' car. They don't even really dwell on it, but very funny. The country club stuff, I thought they really nailed. And even how country clubs look back then. But that scene with the two agents it's such an important

scene where he's just something fundamentally in Richard Williams he just hates these guys and hates what they represent and this distrust of this whole infrastructure that's just trying to grab his kid here's some money

and basically buy them out and I thought that movie did. I didn't know a lot of that stuff that he was that hesitant to, you know, play the game. It's funny. There's a scene that is so similar to that in House of Gucci. Do you know what I'm talking about, Amanda? I won't spoil anything, but there's like a round table scene in which one person is defiant. And that's also like a great set piece, right?

Because the camera can spin all around the table. The camera's hitting everybody's face and you're looking at the reactions when the one person who's defying everybody. It's a great moment. Okay, let me pitch a hypothetical to you guys. We got this long Oscar campaign. We just did an episode last week

about how we're like four months away from the Oscars, which is just ridiculous. But there is this sense that Will, you know, it's really, really his time. Makes me nervous. This happened with Michael Keaton. You and me both, Will. I mean, Bill, yeah.

And Will. And Will, I know. That's why I've heard him say. Sly Stallone and Creed, we've seen this. Yes. So Will has been nominated twice before for Ollie in Pursuit of Happiness. Probably should have been nominated

a couple of other times. You can talk about which spots he should have been chosen for. Six Degrees, he should have been in there. Six Degrees, I agree. We get down to Oscar night, he's nominated. But so is Benedict Cumberbatch for The Power of the Dog.

And Benedict... Fuck that guy. Benedict Cumberbatch wins. What are we doing? How is the big picture responding? That's it. We're canceling the Oscars. It's never happening again.

We're just setting the Oscars on fire. Will Smith, give Will Smith the Oscar. Everyone's going to want it too much. People, I think, honestly, people will be afraid not to vote for him. People want this. This is going to happen. I'm not worried. I get nervous that he wants it so much that they're just going to be like,

no, we can smell it on you. I mean, Will Smith could host the Oscars this year. Like, you know, he's called someone and been like, do you need me? Like, I'm available, hoping to be there anyway. And on the one hand, I would love for Will Smith to host the Oscars this year. You know he's called someone and been like, do you need me? I'm available, hoping to be there anyway. And on the one hand, I would love for Will Smith to host the Oscars, but I need him to win. And I'm nervous and I don't want to jinx it, but I will be very angry if he doesn't. Sean, I'm introducing a new game to the big picture that you're going to be jealous you never thought of. Great performance or great part uh i like it i think this is both i don't think you have to choose on this okay i think i think it's a pretty

great part i do feel like a couple actors would have crushed it yeah yeah i mean you mentioned sterling k and i mentioned forrest whitaker you probably could go down the list a lot of 40 something african-american actors probably would have loved to have sunk their teeth into this also you know, there are not a lot of movies like this anymore, right? There's not a lot of movies where you get to do something like this.

That being said, I think it's a fusion. Is this the same movie with Idris Elba? Because I don't think it is because I think Will... Part of what I liked about it was a couple times, Will Smith,

there would be a gleam in his eye and you'd be like, oh, that's Will Smith. I just like Will Smith so much. I was happy. Isn't it? It's a little bit great casting too, which is part of the great performance, but it, it being Will Smith and those small moments when he pops out make a huge difference. I think. Can I throw another question at you? Cause Wesley and I were talking about this. I can't remember if we talked about it on a podcast or just texting about it. Should there be another Academy category for actors in basically biopics,

playing real people? Because Wesley thinks that we reward the biopic culture too much. And if you think about it, adapted screenplay versus original screenplay, we have these two lanes, right, for writing. But yet with acting, is creating a character from scratch harder than it is to just play somebody? It's a great question.

Best real person, best made-up person. I think Amanda and I definitely agree that they reward that too much because people just vote for what they know. You know, they're just like, oh, Napoleon? That's a person I've heard of. I will vote for Napoleon. Judy Garland. Yeah. Right.

And it's also like, Oh, actor I've heard of is finally playing person I've heard of. Well, and it's, it's time. And we never even get to have a discussion about whether it's even a good performance.

So, yeah, I guess it would get a little dicey with devil wears Prada was Meryl Street playing Anna Wintour or playing a proxy. So you couldn't have this, but. Well, then that would just be category fraud, which is its own thing to argue about, which is fine, right? You know, and it's like, should she have submitted in the other one and more things to yell about?

One thing I know is that the Oscars, they need to start doing shit like this. They need to start creating weird categories that stoke controversy and get people interested because, you know, I'm at a pretty high panic level in terms of where this organization is going long-term. Yeah, but next year so that Will Smith can win this year. Okay.

Okay? Well, they're not going to change it now. Well, I have a couple more Oscar questions. Yep. Is the wife best actress or best supporting actress for how much she's in this movie?

It's got to be supporting, right? I think supporting, I think. I think supporting. But I think she has a legitimate chance if they put if they put her on the trail i think she people are gonna have the same reaction you did but what do you do with the daughters i don't think they'll be recognized i think i don't while i think they're great i don't think they're gonna push them because it's gonna come at the expense of ingenue ellis i thought the daughters were phenomenal they were that i mean that movie unravels if either of them suck

it does very true and we've seen movies unravel because the kid actor wasn't good enough and they were both good enough i agree uh berthal best supporting no question no question i think this has a really strong chance to be nominated for best picture too now whether or not it is one of the best pictures of the year is kind of debatable because it's so deeply focused on Will's performance. But people- I think you guys are underselling how well this movie is going to do.

I hope it does really well. People are going to love this movie. This is everything people want, especially coming out of 21 months of the pandemic. This is why Ted Lasso's season one hit like it did. This movie has everything and it makes you feel better. months of the pandemic. This is why Ted Lasso season one hit like it did. This is...

This movie has everything and it makes you feel better. You feel like you've taken a shower by the end of it. You just feel clean and happy and you feel good about life. It's true. It's true. We're cynical on this show. Yeah, we're just so burned by so many movies that we're like, people are going to love this and

then they're just not ready and they don't watch it or whatever. It's not sappy though. It's not trying for it. This isn't pay it forward and this isn't like those guys, what dreams may come in these movies that are trying to be inspirational that suck. This is a really good movie and it's about

a father and his daughters and his wife and that's always going to work if it's done correctly. I agree with you. Let's talk a little bit about sports movies. Bill, going back to before I ever met done correctly. I agree with you. I agree with you. Let's talk a little bit about sports movies. Bill, going back to before I ever met you, before I ever knew you, I was reading you on sports movies. You were always the best at identifying what made a sports movie good. I thought you had always like interestingly idiosyncratic enough taste where I was like,

oh, I haven't heard of that one. Or why does he like that one so much? Obviously, this subgenre has fallen by the wayside a little bit in the last 10 years. There's been a little bit less interest in making them. You've participated in making some of them. What's the state of them? What do they need? You mentioned you don't even think this is a sports movie. It's more of a dad-daughter movie. I mean, it qualifies as a sports movie, but yeah, I think fundamentally, it's a father-daughter movie. Yeah, look, I wrote about sports movies a lot back when my fingers worked.

I was always fascinated by the construct of them. And there's really like four eras, right? Like the first era starts in 74 with Longest Yard and Rollerball. And then Rocky and Bad News Bears show up two years later, and then we're just going to run. And this is like, all right, let's start making these. And we go and we go and Bad News Bears show up two years later, and then we're just going to run. And this is like, all right, let's start making these. And we go and we go and we go. And a lot of the early great ones happen during that run.

Then there's like the second run from like the late 80s, starting with like Major League all the way through the 90s. And that's where we have like all the kids' movies. And we have like the movies made by people who love the first generation movies. So movies like Blue Chips, people like that, people who just kind of want to throw their hat. And then we have Jerry Maguire,

where we take the sports movie and we kind of twist it, take it up a notch, Tin Cup, Bull Durham, all those. Like that's that generation. And then the third generation starts in the late 90s, 2000s, where it's people who now realize this is still a lucrative thing. How do we make money from this? It's like, let's get one star. We'll put them on a poster and we'll make a movie about whatever, and this will make money. And you see that's where you get hardballed. Remember the Titans and Varsity Blues and Summer Catch.

There's just a million of them and some good ones. Like Love and Basketball is a really good one. It's not like these were bad movies. And so we have that third generation. That kind of runs out by 06, 07. And now we've done every type of movie. We're doing remakes. We have like the Longest Yard remake,

the Bad News Bears remake. That's kind of dying out. Now documentaries come in. 30 for 30 comes in. We start making real life films about things that happen. And that kind of gets on the sports movie corner. But what happens is starting in 09,

we see it turn again. And now it's this next generation of, all right, these are movies that happen to be about sports. And that's when we get movies like Moneyball. We get Damned United. We get Warrior. Recently, we get The Way Back. And we don't have kind of the generic,

here's our template. This is about this ragtag, like the two hours. These are like actually real movies set in sports. And I think this is the most interesting version that we've had because all the ideas have been done. You can't do, you know, you do any boxing movie now and it's like, all right, I've seen 90 versions of that. It's like, oh, here's my ragtag youth sports movie. All right, there's 10 of these. It's almost like how in music and rock music, it's hard to do rock music because so much rock music's already been done. So this new iteration we have makes King Richard so interesting because as you said, this is a throwback. This is an old school sports movie, but it's also one of the greatest stories you could have for a sports movie the williams sisters serena's the best female athlete of all time

you know and her story is incredible and then you take venus and you did and it's just like you know i so i feel like this is an aberration i don't feel like it starts a new trend did i talk too long no that was that was an amazing dissertation i think you're you you pointed something out that hadn't really occurred to me, but that we're now seeing more movies that are kind of in the milieu of sports, but are not following the formula that you think of when you think of those 80s classics. And that actually can be a good thing, that Moneyball and Warrior. Moneyball is this kind of intellectual drama about one guy trying to figure something out. Warrior is this family story,

but they're in the world of professional sports. I think that's really, really smart. Friday Night Lights, I forgot to mention because I think that was an important one too. That was basically a sports movie dragged out for 75 episodes or whatever, but did hit a lot of the same sports movie stuff. I just think a lot of stuff's been done.

At the same time, when you go backwards and you make movies about something that happened in 1995, or I can remember the Titans case, 1970, and there becomes a timelessness to that. I thought the way back was great. I really liked it. And I thought it twisted a couple of sports movie formula things against you, where it's like they have the scene where they make the playoffs, which is just a great fundamental old school sports movie basketball scene. And then the movie doesn't end. And then we go off a cliff. And then he's out. He's out as a coach. Yeah, he's out. And he's crashing cars and getting beat up. And he's in rehab. And

that last 20 minutes is not a sports movie. It's really tough. Yeah. But it's also really good. Bill, in like 20 years when Jim Miller writes the unauthorized slash authorized biography of Bill Simmons, do you think there will be a chapter called The Man Who Loved Sports Movies Killed Sports Movies? Because 30 for 30, I think you're right.

Kind of like, maybe sort of did it in a little bit. I think people's expectations for what should be in these stories. King Richard is one of the first true life dramatized sports it in a little bit. I think people's expectations for what should be in these stories. King Richard is one of the first true life dramatized sports movies in a while that I think actually works and people are excited about. I wonder if this is something that

you have to invent a world like Warrior or The Way Back in order to get these movies made for the most part. Well, let's ask Amanda who loves I think Serena as much as anybody and even defended her after the Osaka match, which I still have a lot of problems with.

It was nobody's best moment, except for Naomi. It was Naomi's best moment. You defended her. You know, like... You've defended her a few times where it's like, this is a true fan. I want her to get to 24. I just, I need it.

I want Margaret Court off the leaderboard. Serena, I love you. I believe in you. Let's just buckle down and do this. But Amanda has just laid out why she's the perfect person to answer this question. Okay. Would you have rather had King Richard

or would you have rather had whatever the last dance version is of Serena's career where you go 10 episodes and it's really well done and it's a little bit of a hagiography, but it's still authentic and made by people who cared about the story. What would have been your choice? Oh, God. That's really hard. Because the problem is I think most people would pick the last dance i mean i loved the last dance but what you've isolated is that i have such like a specific relationship to serena and so living through the the rough years and you know things not going well uh would be difficult for me personally like i you know tennis is the one sport where it's like

i don't want to talk about when they lose because i get so invested in it like never mentioned the wimbledon from like 2018 to me ever again roger federer wise but just i like i can't i feel sick right now talking about it i'm just filing that in the back of my mind so I can use it against you. Thank you so much for that. And I think it also does depend on the tape, right? I mean, part of the last dance revelation for me was just the footage and just Michael Jordan is the most aspirationally petty person of all time. I really took joy from that and my own inspiration. And I think, I don't know if Serena has that same quality. So you'd need like a different. But the Serena story has a different piece to it, which is them in the 2000s uprooting an entirely white sport and the resentment they faced for that,

which was a lot different than what Tiger went through with golf. I mean, that's true. It was basically like, you're taking our sport from us. Somebody needs to beat these two girls, which is a really weird dynamic. It really did. What about Palm Springs? Exactly. The Indian Wells boycott for many years, understandably. So I think it would be a tough watch. And

part of me, I mean, part of the appeal of the Serena and Venus story and part of me just yelling at you, I want her to get to 24 and 25 is because I like the amazing, like uplifting nature of it. And I think like, she's not getting there. Okay. Thank you. Spoiler alert. Just, but so- Spoiler, it's over. But so like as a movie watcher and like someone who appreciates journalism and ideas, I think the answer is Last Dance. But as a fan and a person who likes to cry at these movies,

I want the King Richard version, you know? Here's a question, Sean. Okay. How many movies get made anymore that are about something that the three of us would like, but also my 16-year-old

daughter would like, but my 8-year-old daughter back in the day also would have liked, but my 74-year-old dad also would have liked. That is a short list. This movie, and why I think it's going to be bigger than i think people realize is this movie has an audience of all people and it's actually about something it's not the fucking

eternals you know it's like thank god for that there's actually something real here and i just don't think they make movies like this anymore i wish they did these are the movies that we grew up with yeah i mean amanda used the the phrase du jour, which is four quadrant. It speaks to men. It speaks to women. It speaks to older people. It speaks to younger people. It speaks across demographics, race, everything. It's a right down the middle movie. And it's hard to make right down the middle movies now because also if they fail, people are like, shit, we got to make another superhero movie. So let's cherish this. It also doesn't hit you over the head. You know, like there's some subtle

stuff in here where, yeah, obviously he has trouble with the gangs in the first 35 minutes of the movie, but as these kids get better, there's just a couple subtle moments where the car comes by and they're checking on the girls. And that's something that happens. It happens with basketball. It happens with tennis

and inner cities where the entire neighborhood feels real ownership over these kids. They want them to get out. They want them to become ambassadors for their neighborhood. It didn't hit you over the head with that. There's no speech of somebody explaining, just think of all the ways this could go wrong, where they're at breakfast and the mom's like what we're seeing now is the neighborhood rallying behind serena and venus like yes it doesn't have that moment it's just like that's why it's such a smart movie and i think it really works surprisingly subtle script from zach balin and ray green who will hand picked to make the movie who grew up playing sports in new york in a very similar environment to Compton who knows this sort of thing,

who knows this space. Black filmmaker who is sensitive to these experiences in a way that, you know, if it was 25 years ago, probably would have been like an older white guy who would have been like, yeah, now we need an exposition speech around the table where mom says,

here's what's going on in our neighborhood right now. So that's part of it too. It's 100% an older white guy directing this, I think 10 years ago. Yeah. So that part of it has changed. That's one of the good things that's happening in hollywood is somebody like him is getting a chance to make this movie too which is cool um you know i feel like you used to have a sports movie pantheon is that something you're still like tracking do you still have do you have favorites is hoosiers still meaningful to you is is rocky there's a lot of

rocky four business going on right now like what is do you have a list going right now it's so funny when i when at page two when i went back after i left kimmel show in 04 i was going to do a lot of Rocky IV business going on right now. Do you have a list going right now? It's so funny. At page two, when I went back after I left Kimmel Show in 04, I was going to do the top 75 sports movies of all time. And I think I wrote about eight of them and it was just too ambitious and I cared too much and it was like sidetracking my life. And I kind of abandoned it.

And I was doing them out of order. So I'd write about like number five. I remember this. And I just couldn't keep it going. And one of the reasons we initially started the rewatchables, we started doing sports movies first. And then we're like, this should be all movies. I'll make the categories better. But I think what's fun about sports movies is the list changes over the years.

Like 20 years ago, I wrote and I met, like it was like Hoosiers and The Natural are the two best sports movies of all time. This cannot be argued. It cannot be disputed. That's that. A movie like Field of Dreams, it's like this movie's awesome.

If you don't like it, you fucking suck as a person. Like that's, you either like Field of Dreams or you suck. Those are the two categories and now as I've gotten older I think my relationship

has changed with some of those movies like Spike Lee he definitely hurt Hoosiers for me the way he wrote about it in his book which is

he wrote a really good basketball book and he had this whole chapter about Hoosiers and how racist it was and I read it I was like oh shit

and now when I watch that final scene it is in the back of my head I still like, oh shit. And now when I watch that final scene, it is in the back of my head in some way. I still think Cougars is iconic, but you do watch and it's like, yeah, of course this is a movie made in 86. I think there's some that have stood the test of time. I really almost feel like it's like wine where you need a few years with it. Like I'm not ready to call Warrior one of the best sports movies ever. It's only been around 11 years. I think maybe late 90s

is probably the cutoff if you're talking greatest for me because I just think it needs to be around. It needs to be incredibly rewatchable. It needs to be unique. It needs to be distinct. So that's how I tried to make my list for this because you asked me for my top five.

Was it top five ever or just my personal top five? We like to do favorites. I think it's kind of impossible to kind of like to can it. I did personal, yeah. Yeah, because I have movies on my list and I'm like,

is this actually a better movie than Field of Dreams? Probably not. But I like it more. I'd actually rather watch, like I'll give you my number five. It's Blue Chips. Blue Chips is, think about me's Blue Chips. Blue Chips is

think about me seeing Blue Chips at like 13 years old loving Shaquille O'Neal also loving Nick Nolte like a weirdo as I was as a teenager and being ensconced in the world of college basketball. Huge St. John's fan at the time. Love the idea of setting a movie in this world

and I think I rewatched it this week and I was like, God damn it. Nick Nolte, how did he not win best actor? One of the most amazing final speeches in a movie ever. It's a flawed movie. It's a movie that is kind of interesting to revisit now because of everything that's been happening post Ed O'Bannon case and what's going on with paying college athletes. But if fucking William Friedkin directed a sports movie and I thought pretty well and got some good basketball action in there. And it's a complex drama and it's got huge, huge performances

from this rogues gallery of that guys and that girls. And I really love that movie. Now, is that like critically, intellectually a better movie than some of the all-time greats? No, but it means a lot to me. So that's how I'm picking. It's an important movie because the way they approach the basketball scenes were kind of revolutionary.

Yeah. Where they got the best possible basketball players. They cast really good basketball players. And then he just kind of had them play pickup and had them play real games and tried to shoot them the best they could. You're right. The movie has a ton of flaws. But it's why my favorite sports movie of all time for years and years

was Fast Break and now it's just so inappropriate. I can't put it in the top five anymore. But one of the reasons I loved it was Bernard King's in it

and he plays Hustler and all of the basketball in that movie is so good. It's so rewatchable and Bernard King, like basically before his apex,

he's just wreaking havoc and destroying these teams and it's so much fun to watch but yeah Blue Chips the fact that I feel like the lead up to it almost hurt

the movie in some way people were so excited for Shaq and Penny Hardaway to be in a sport I know Amanda was she was couldn't sleep at night I knew who Shaq was

at the time this movie was released just for the record it was such a big deal that he was in a movie and I think it came out and people were, unless it was like the greatest movie of all time,

people could be a little disappointed. So I'm with you. I think it's had a little tail. What do you have for number five, Amanda? It's an idiosyncratic Amanda pick. The Cutting Edge, obviously. Which, I mean, come on. No, I'm with you.

It is a sports movie, but also a romantic comedy. Script by Tony Gilroy, never on. No, I'm with you. It is a sports movie, but also romantic comedy. Script by Tony Gilroy, never forget. Wow. And it has obviously all of my rom-com tropes, but also the important training montages. And an Olympics movie, which I, as a young child, was very into the Olympics, which in their own way are just sports movies. You know, like I, I just give me a, like a four minute NBC montage, uh, you know, or like promo clip about some athlete you've never heard of doing the toboggan or whatever. And I'm just immediately crying. Like the seeds for me loving sports movies are in that kind of Olympics, like retro package package presentation so i love this movie i also db sweeney really

important i hadn't really encountered this encountered this type of you know hockey player uh type of guy before and that that was just this is your energy an important education yeah this is really wow db is really your energy yeah got to say that as an audition tape for the Cutting Edge Rewatchables, that's one of the, you've been accepted. Thank you. I'm putting you on the schedule. I love that movie.

Toe pick. It's great. It's fucking great. And it made us think DB Sweeney and Moira Kelly were going to be like pretty big stars. And weirdly, that was like, probably the peak for DB. Maura Kelly at least had West Wing.

But they just really had chemistry. I mean, that's a chemistry movie. I was reminded of that movie when we had, who were the two Canadian dancers in the 2018 Winter Olympics? Right, right, right. Where those two were like,

they were ready to bone on the ice. And there was some cutting edge stuff going on there. When you talk about what's the worst for that movie, they really have to do some ambitious editing with the figure skating. Like now they would just CGI. Back then it was like slow

motion and close ups and it's really bad. I've watched it recently. But that was what we had in 1993. I thought I, Tonya actually did a pretty good job of that. I thought the skating was actually pretty good in that. Okay, Bill, what's your number five? My number five is rounders. Oh, what?

Was this eligible? Why isn't that eligible? Are cards not a sport? Is gambling not a sport? Is poker not a sport? It's an interesting question. I don't know. I love the pick.

I wish I had known. I would have had it on my list. It has to be on there. It's your game. You can put anything on the list that you want. Has the movie draft taught us nothing? Good point. Good point. Okay. Why Rounders, Bill? It just has all the elements of a sports movie. It's perfect in that respect. It has the arc. We have to head to the big game at the end. In this case, it's the big match. There's sports references all over the place. There's teamwork.

There's double crosses. And it's wholly unique. Nobody had made a poker movie like that. You could argue that it starts the poker boom a couple years later as this movie became rewatchable. And I was trying to look at, for my list for favorites, also trying to factor in like, just the,

is this, is this the best of that sport or that kind of what it's trying to do? And, um, I think rounders really holds up. It's fun to watch Damon and Norton together. You think like compliment and Levine, obviously I'm a little biased cause I'm friends with those guys,

but I just think that movie is one of the most rewatchable movies ever made. Anytime it's on I'm like oh where are we oh they're about to go to Atlantic City all right I'm in uh I I don't I can't how can I argue this is the second time on this podcast where your total love for rounders Sean has been like used against you I don't know how you keep letting this happen I don't know in one of the movie drafts Chris took it it instead of Sean. And it was, I watched a beautiful friendship break down

in my Zoom screen in real time. It's a top 10 sports movie ever. It's in my top five favorites right now. But the thing is like, my favorites change every year. So they evolve.

I might catch a movie and then be like, oh my God. And then I'll go on a run with it and watch it three times in a year. I'll tell you my, my list changes every year too. But one movie that never leaves it, Bill, you know, we've talked about this before. I wrote about this once upon a time, downhill racer, um, 1969 movie, very different from

your traditional sports movie, uh, directed by one of my favorites, Michael Ritchie starring Robert Redford, kind of a similar movie to tennis movies and to golf movies. We never think of skiers as these like isolated lone men. But Redford plays this Olympic skier who's kind of an asshole and kind of a prima donna. He's got a coach who's really tough on him. Basically, he's playing Robert Redford. He is. He's playing a guy who thinks he's the shit and actually pretty much is the shit.

But he goes through this interesting stage of realization of his greatness and his failures. And it's like a very unusual movie, very unusual Michael Ritchie movie. This is a guy who made Fletch. And it feels very much of the new Hollywood, a very still, quiet, very cerebral, beautiful to look at.

It's amazing. I mean, skiing, another thing that is so hard to make look good. And it's, I think, in part inspired by like Spider Savage, the famous Olympic skier. And they're capturing...

Who's the actress? There's a smoking hot actress in there. Some foreign actress. Camila Sparve, I think is her name. Yeah. It's never been seen again,

but she's good. They have like a good 20 minutes. A Swedish beauty, an ice queen. Gene Hackman? Hackman is the... the his his audition really for hoosiers as the asshole coach really good stuff in this um downhill racer one of my favorites not not as not as seen as some of the movies we've talked about so far but it's an awesome movie

what streaming service is it on it must be on criteria it's not one of them i watched it and i've texted you after i was like oh my god i think it's the best pre-1974 sports movie. So I'm with you. Good call. Okay. Amanda, what do you got? Amanda, you haven't seen that one? No, I haven't, but I'm going to now.

Robert Redford skiing. I'm in. He looks very handsome. Yeah, that's also peak Redford, you know? Oh, it's like what? 52 years old at this point? Yeah. That movie could,

honestly holds up. It's shocking. I agree. I'm putting it on the list. All right, My number four. Again, this is favorites instead of best. Because frankly, I just thought it would be dumb to be like, Rocky is one of my favorite sports movies.

Like, no shit. So I'm going with Creed, which I loved and is a reinvention and a reboot and an homage to Rocky, obviously, and kind of all of the sports traditions and sports movie beats that Rocky introduced and made dear to us. But, you know, feels fresh and exciting. And once again,

when the Rocky theme comes on at the end, I was alone in the theater, just weeping, just, you know, very moving. I also live with someone who is far too proud to be from the city of philadelphia and uh but and and like this is the movie where i can channel that affection for the city of

philadelphia both like in that that meek mill like training scene and at the end when they're uh climbing the steps um once again but then of course like i rewatched it last night and then i told my husband i was was like, you know, I watched Creed, really made me miss Philly. And he started giving me this look like he founded Philadelphia himself. And I was like, all right, chill.

You're not Benjamin Franklin. But it recaptures the spirit and reinvents it in a way that I think a lot of movies, as Bill said, in this decade have struggled to do. So Creed, I'm a fan. Awesome, as Bill said, in this decade have struggled to do. So Creed, I'm a fan. Awesome movie. Great movie. I thought about it. It's a little too early. I need to spend five, 10 more years with it, but it's a lot of the notes. Also the sly piece of it.

It's so good. It's really well done. I was nervous, but they nailed it. Rylance over Stallone is one of the funniest Oscar wins ever. That is amazing that they dragged Sly Stallone's ass to the Oscars and they were like, just kidding. We're giving it to this British stage actor. That was so mean. One of the biggest offenses in the history of the Oscars. I don't even remember what movie that was. People hate Sly though. They just think he's such a dick. You know, I really think

that worked against him. Listen, after I did the research for Cobra, you forget the mid-80s, there was no more egotistical,

crazy star than him. And apparently, he even talks about it on the Rocky IV thing where he's, in the director's cut, he's talking about how he had the Lamborghini scene

where it was just like, I just really liked the way I looked in that scene. That was why they had it. Honestly, it worked for him 98% of the time. So no hard feelings. But when you're at the Academy Awards, it doesn't always work. Okay. What do you got for number four, Bill? Well, ironically, Slash Stallone. Rocky III. Yes. Let's go. Talk about it.

It's the best Rocky. It's the most satisfying start to finish rocky it's got the biggest twist that worked in any rocky i still feel like the apollo and rocky four is a little forced um the mr t going after adrian at the at the statue thing is still like one of the most amazing two minutes that's ever been in a movie in my opinion it's just incredible hey woman hey woman and Sly's got that what and all of a sudden it's on they have to fight Adrian looks great it's the most likable Adrian's been

in a movie there's some good poly we get the pinball machine there's real life lessons sometimes when you become really successful you lose the hunger a little bit. You can get a little soft. It's not just boxing. It could be anywhere.

It could be having a successful movie podcast where all of a sudden you think your shit doesn't stink. Is this about me or is this about you? I don't know who I'm talking about. But you have the incredible unintentional comedy of the beach scene, which I've written about many times when he beats Apollo and they're just kind of jumping up and down in the water. It's just incredible. There's great slow motion. And the last scene's good. The eye of the tiger,

Hulk Hogan's in it. It's incredible. It's an incredible movie. It's almost 40 years old. It's a tour de force. I've never been on the rewatchables, Rocky III. You back pocketing this one? It's on the list. Okay. It's on the list. When I'm ready to retire, probably sooner than people expect,

all of a sudden it'll be like, Rocky III, Boogie Nights. People are like, what's going on? Where's he going? That will leave just enough time for Amanda to close out the series with the cutting edge yeah okay my number three is the final one that was a very loaded number four pick a lot a lot of personal info about you in there bill uh number three wow white man can't jump um this is not the

last ron shelton movie on my list but um and i know you have quibbled over the years with wesley's uh hoops abilities frankly i, I don't care. I think sometimes the sports, I think the sports needs to be ballet as much as it needs to be real life sports. Obviously, Woody can ball. Seeing a white dude dress that poorly, play basketball that well, inspiring to 14-year-old me. I'll also just deeply in love with Rosie Perez for about 20 years and deeply in love with Jeopardy. So this movie is really a confluence of all of my interests. Basketball, trash talking,

movies, shit talking, Venice. I had always wanted to live in Los Angeles. There's so much going on in this movie that I love. Also a movie that does

all the, I think, hits a lot of the tropes. You know, has the big game, has like the arch enemy, the Dwayne Martin figure, you know,

like has all of the pieces that all fit together plus this tenuous partnership, friendship, rivalry between Woody and Wesley, who have all-time chemistry. In movie history, the two of those guys together and then back and forth against each other is magnificent. Always just love this movie. And genuinely funny. You left out genuinely funny. Legit. Legit. Marcus Johnson going to get his gun out of the car is still one of the funniest sports

movies ever. It's become one of the great Twitter memes now. His breakdown on the court is so wonderful. We did that. I think that was the third rewatchable movie we ever did. Very early. It's such a rewatchable movie, especially the first 45 minutes are kind of unassailable. It's delightful.

They're perfect. Tails off a little second half, but not in a damaging way. It's delightful. They're perfect. Tails off a little second half, but not in a damaging way. It's okay. What are the brothers called again? The brothers who are going after Woody, the gangsters? That's the one thing in the movie where I'm like, what's happening here?

Why are there gangsters coming after Woody Harrelson? Yeah, traveling cross country to Woody Harrelson. Okay, Amanda, what do you got next? Rudy. I grew up in a college football household little known fact about me uh been to many college football games at nayland stadium in oxford tennessee go vols and i remember my dad took me to this when i was eight or nine and uh i think this was one of my first sparts movies weeping throughout and then asking whether we could

become notre dame fans uh i didn't really understand at that point that you weren't just supposed to jump around. I was just like really moved by the power of Rudy. And I mean, you know, this, like the soundtrack in this movie, as he's, you know, getting worked in every single practice and every single thing, it's like the classic triumphant sports you know it's not john williams is nbc theme but it might as well be for me and i know the jersey scene is 100 made up and people are mad about it but watch it again just again just weeping at 2 30 in the afternoon yesterday so thank you to rudy i'm gonna i'm playing this for you. Okay. I mean... Then Favreau

just screaming. We're watching the final sequence. It's Jon Favreau going, Yeah! Yeah! Who's the wild man now? One of the funniest

seven seconds of all time. It's amazing that he's still in a career after that scene. It's incredible. Rudy's amazing. The real life Rudy

kind of ruined Rudy a tiny bit for me. It knocked him out of the top ten. He's such a loser. That's incredible. Rudy's amazing. The real life Rudy kind of ruined Rudy a tiny bit for me. It knocked it out of the top 10. He's such a loser. It's like, just shut up, real life Rudy. Yeah. I will say though, Charles Rock Dutton slow clapping

Slow clap. is instant cry for me. I'm like, this is the most touching moment in the history of movies. Every time I see that. The movie honestly perfected the slow clap. I feel like it became a thing after that. I also, when they all bring the jer touching moment in the history of movies. Every time I see that. The movie honestly perfected the slow clap. I feel like it became a thing after that. I also, when they all bring the jerseys in.

Yeah. You get on my spot. Like, honestly, I'm a cyborg and that one gets me every time. It's just really good. It's incredible. Okay, Rudy. Everybody loves Rudy.

If you don't love Rudy, you're an asshole. Rudy's great. It's probably 15 minutes too long, but it's fine. Of course. Okay, number three, Bill. I'm going. If you don't love Rudy, you're an asshole too. Rudy's great. It's probably 15 minutes too long, but it's fine. Of course. Okay, number three, Bill. I'm going to put Hoosiers at three. Okay.

Okay. It used to be one, and we're doing it for the rewatchables next week, so I won't step up. What? Yeah, that's happening. Wow. That's happening next week.

Save some room for some Dennis Hopper love. I'm just going to put that out there. Hoosiers is unbelievable. I spent one of the first, my first year at ESPN, I did a mailbag thing where I tried to figure out, I'd done it before with the natural,

tried to figure out what rehab stats were in the natural. And people loved it. They were like, what is this? And then I tried to figure out the final box score for Hoosiers. And Jimmy basically scores every point before. It's an unbelievable Jimmy performance, but that's how much I love this movie.

I've written entire columns about it. And I think I went in 2012, we went for the Super Bowl and we went, we filmed the Grantland video at the Hoosiers gym, which was unbelievable by the way. So it's just, yeah, I don't need to sell Hoosiers. Fun fact, David Anspaugh, who directed Hoosiers, also directed Rudy. So he knows a little bit about how to make a good sports movie. There's some interesting Hoosier stuff because I, and I always were writing about this for 20 years. How does Buddy end up back in the team? It's like, where did he come from? He kicks Buddy

out and then 20 minutes later, just Buddy's playing again. it's like where did he come from he kicks buddy out and then 20 minutes later just buddy's playing again it's like what happened is there a missing scene and did some research and found out they shot the scene they did a 35th anniversary director's cut that they showed in indiana it's got the 19 minutes of restored footage including the scene when buddy gets kicked off the team so it filled in some blanks uh my number two is one of the all-time great director actor pairings and i think people forget that this crew has made three movies together i'm talking about george roy hill and paul newman slap shot pop not not just one of the best sports movies of all time but maybe one of the top 10 comedies of all time definitely in the conversation for funniest movies

ever made but also because it's made by these guys who know how to make Academy award-worthy material has gravitas has a sense of drama. You know, there's like, there are those scenes with, um, uh, you know,

the, some of the female characters and that kind of the relationships that Paul Newman has that are like much deeper than some of the other stuff that you're seeing, but also based on real life, minor league hockey experiences. And, you know, Bill, as you know, Newman, one of my guys i love newman so much and uh started out as a cult classic real like cable movie for me obviously released well before i was born

but dynamite supporting cast incredible struther martin performance uh also like all the little things edited by dd allen one of the greatest editors in the history of movies really good hockey in the movie score by elmer bernstein one of the goats composers like really just all the little pieces are perfect in this one this is just a great great great movie i had it as my number two as well beautiful that's so nice love to hear it that's very sweet what do you what's crazy there's a couple crazy things about it one is you can make a case it's Newman's best performance. He's great. Newman's unbelievable in that movie. I just can't believe he pulled off every piece of it.

It's so fucking funny. It's so incredibly rewatchable. No hockey movie has come near it for 45 years. Not even close. People love Goon. That's the one that I think people say. Not on the level of Slapshot, though.

Please don't disrespect Mighty Ducks, but I agree. Yeah, true. All right, Mighty Ducks would be two, I guess. But it is part of that generation of Little Big League and Little Giants and Sandlot. That's almost like a subcategory.

Also, it's such a 70s movie. It just belongs to this era. It's timeless. A lotcategory. Also, it's such a 70s movie. It just belongs to this era. It's timeless. A lot of smoking. Midtown. There's some great Lindsey Krauss. You know how I feel about Lindsey Krauss. Yep, yep.

What about Melinda Dillon? Oh my God, Melinda Dillon. Melinda Dillon. I think that was the first nude scene I ever saw in a theater. That's fine. All right. Thanks, Melinda.

It's got the one flaw of the striptease at the end, which I've never thought totally worked. I always thought it was a little gimmicky, but I get it. But man, it still holds up. It's still a really great movie. It kind of belongs on its own, where it just owns a sport. Nothing has approached it. Also famously written by a woman nancy dowd you know which is at a time when women's souls female screenwriter on the

credits here who you know nancy who wrote also wrote a straight time and coming home like two of the best movies of the 70s so this is just an amazing movie um what i think the first when the hansons finally go out on the ice, it's the funniest two minutes of any sports movie. Just trucking dudes? So good. I couldn't wait until my son was old enough to show him Slapshot. It's just so good. And yet they're setting it up. They're playing with their toy trucks and trains in their hotel room. And you're like, what's wrong with these guys? But man, it's a a classic amanda i love your number two didn't put it on my list because i knew you would have it what is it a league of their own of course

um yeah a sister's movie not unlike king richard and also the you know girls can do it too movie before that was you know corporatized to to all hell or you know maybe i just i saw it at eight years old so it's like oh well yay um it just I've I've seen this movie a million times definitely a cable movie for me an incredible Tom Hanks supporting performance on top of everything else obviously there's no crying in baseball then you have like Madonna in the movie Rosie just like a great cast catchy song and then uh like a climactic sporting event with an unresolved question to the group did she intentionally drop it or not i say yes of course feels like she did yeah i i think she did as well there are a lot of blog posts out there being like no of course she didn't

intentionally drop it but i don't really think those people have seen the movie. Very touching. Obviously has spawned far more Halloween costumes than anyone ever needs, but that's okay. Pretty good group costume. How do you feel about the last three minutes after the climactic game and farewell? Did we need it? You mean like when they go back to the hall of fame,

everybody's old. Yeah. When they see adult still, well, angel, I, that always gets me a little bit. I think this movie could have ended with Geena Davis saying goodbye to Tom Hanks

and then we're done. You're probably right. Also, they definitely the beginning is pretty cheesy when she's like leaving her house and like traveling to the Hall of Fame. You don't totally need it. You don't need that frame. It's an incredible piece of pop culture, A League of Their Own,

where it just hit, you know, early nineties when people really cared and understood about movies and how they related and you could read about movies that were coming, things like that. And the fact that the casting have Madonna and Rosie Del Dono on it.

And then Hank's about to go on the greatest movie run anyone's ever had. You just talked to him about this. And then Hanks about to go on the greatest movie run anyone's ever had. You just talked to me about this. And this was, that's the first one. Yeah.

And I think Hanks really loves this movie too. I think you get the feeling everyone who was in this movie loved it. I also, I, it really opens up

a whole Geena Davis conversation that we're going to have to have on the rewatchables at some point. She's just like a fucking unbelievable star and we never got there with her career wise. There's a like a fucking unbelievable star and we never got there with her career-wise.

There's a 10-year window when not every movie works, but between The Fly and Cutthroat Island, Lunkas Goodnight, where, I mean, she felt like as big as any actress. Like in this movie,

this was a huge event and she was at the center of the story. She's much bigger than Tom Hanks. My hottest take of the pod, top 50 hottest take for me, I just think Gina Davis should have been

at least Angelina Jolie what her career was, like from an impact standpoint. Tall and beautiful and could act and was funny and could also be tough and just,

what didn't she bring to the table? She was a credible baseball player. That's insane. Yeah. Like she, there should have been an action

people just didn't know in the 90s to do it and she tried she did long kiss good night which was her act and it didn't work she never did action i like that movie but it's not it wasn't exactly what you're saying she it almost felt like hollywood is not yet ready for uh an angelina type in that role you talk about the four quadrant thing she could have made any movie she could make a rom-com she could make a sports movie. She could make an action movie. She could have been in the fucking Conjuring.

Like, what could... I'm all in on Geena Davis. Even in Fletch. Remember we did Fletch? We were like, she steals every scene. Shouldn't she have just been in the Dana Will or Nickerson part?

Yep. Yeah, I'm all in on Geena. Okay. Great pick, Amanda. So now we're down to number one. I just... I tried to not overthink it and just went Bull Durham. I feel like Bull Durham...

Bull Durham is one of those I didn't know you could do that kind of movies. The long digressions from Susan Sarandon, the conversations on the mound with Nuke and the catcher and the manager. There's a lot going on in this movie, very small choices by Shelton,

where he feels like he is doing what you were describing, Bill, like looking back at the history of these movies, and looking at what works, and taking out all the stuff that doesn't work. This movie's not sappy. It's not gloopy. It's not even manipulative. It's very smart.

It's sentimental and emotional, but it's not syrupy. And it's obviously got a shitload of humor, just like all the great Ron Shelton movies do. And Costner as probably the most credible actor-athlete in the history of movies. As a legitimate

minor league catcher. Brings you into a world. 100%. It's just like watching Rounders or Michael Clayton or any of these other movies where you're like, oh, this is what it's like to be a fixer lawyer. This is what it's like to be a minor league catcher.

You know, this is actually, it feels like documentary, but with a really good sense of humor. It's just a lot of fun. And it also falls in, we're all picking super rewatchable movies,

movies that we've spent a shitload of time with in our life. And so Boulder Home is at the top for me. It helps that Costner and Sarandon are just like peak hot in this movie as well.

It's just really, and then there's like a lot of scenes with saxophones and, you know, like, and you're just like, cool. I learned a lot about 80s sex scenes from Bull Durham and then in a great way. It's way ahead of its time with how it approached women and sexuality. That it's like 20 years ahead of where people would end up with it. And it just, it had a sense of humor about it. And it just, it went there. I didn't put it on my top five because of Tim Robbins,

how he threw a baseball. Now he explained this on my pod that he threw out his arm two days in and just like basically needed Tommy John surgery after. But it's just so hard with the nuclear rush part where it's like this guy's this phenom. And then we watch him and he's just throwing the ball like he's gotus part where it's like this guy's this phenom and then we watch him and he's just throwing the ball like he's got a broken arm.

I can't get past it. I would argue that actually makes it more interesting because it makes you more on Crash's side. It makes him more... Because you're like, this guy who you're telling me is good isn't even good. It's like an added piece.

That was when I was a kid and I didn't understand movie storytelling. When I was nine years old and I saw it. like an added piece. I think that was when I was a kid and I didn't understand like movie storytelling. When I was like nine years old and I saw it. What a rationalization. Well, but I mean, who doesn't love Crash though? Crash is the man. Yeah. Listen, it's a flaw.

Okay. We're going top five. We're competing against the big boys, like Rocky III, Hoosiers. I need one of my three best people in the movie to be able to play sports if that's their job okay so who's your number one? so this has changed a lot for me

but I just went for pure enjoyment pure love this is on I'm so happy I'm so happy to be back with all these people and the answer is Caddyshack wow which we did on the rewatchables

wow I just love it it's so great I love every scene. I love the story behind the movie. I love how haphazard it is. Um, I love every single part of this movie.

There's not, it's, it's still one of the funniest movies of all time. It uses golf. Um, it's ridiculous. It's got major, major stars.

And Ted Knight is just an all-time icon. He's all kind of in Dangerfield. And it just makes me so happy. I love Caddyshack. Yeah. Okay. Well, Amanda, where are you at? What do you got? Number one. I went with the heart. Number one is Moneyball. I just, I love it so much. And that, it was a later in life, I didn't know that you could do this with movies for me.

As Bill said, it's starting a new era of approach to these movies, and it's about these smart guys in the office, but really it's about heart. And how can you not be romantic about baseball? And also Brad Pitt in the performance of his life, I think. Still number one Brad Pitt for me. And you just can't overlook Brad Pitt weightlifting and throwing water coolers around as something that's going to make me invest in a movie. But I think the script is great.

It still, for me, has that like climactic sports moment when the Chris Pratt character hits the home run after they've blown the lead and everything cuts out, you know? And it's just him running the bases like pretty much silent. And I find that as almost as moving as the the last rudy scene um smart and still and funny and still uh you know sappy at the end of the day just the right amount of sappy just the right amount of my daughter made me this song on a cd two two issues with this movie okay okay all right one you right. One. You love this movie. Why are you being negative?

Because I'm just trying to justify it. You left out Hoffman. Okay. Oh, God. I did. I forgot Hoffman. When you're making the case. Fucking Hoffman plays the manager.

It's unbelievable. Unbelievable. It's such genius casting. He's one of the best actors in the last 30 years. We'll just throw him in as the manager. He's also perfect in this. Yeah.

One, Billy Beans shit didn't work in the playoffs then and it doesn't work now. We still do not have an A's title. That's why it's a movie it's a movie about failure two

so there are a lot of sports movies Billy Bean refuses to come be the president of baseball operations for the Mets so fuck him and the Red Sox

that's painful to me it's used in the film for the Red Sox but the last five years there's been this sense that maybe he's coming to New York and he's not coming

to New York but Moneyball is great that's it that's the list Bill anything you were like he's not coming to New York. But Moneyball is great. That's it. That's the list. Bill, anything you were like? I really like the family stuff from Moneyball. Yeah. I like the scene with the daughter in the clothing store.

It's just incredible. I like his relationship with his ex-wife. What about Spike Jonze? Spike Jonze. My hero, Robin White. How's the team shaping up this year? My personal queen, Robin Wright. I like how she's in that.

But yeah, no, it's a great one. It's certainly in the running if we're going to do best sports movies of the last 20 years. It has to be in the top five. Yeah, maybe 21st century is something we should be looking at as we get a little on in years.

Okay, this was great. Bill, thanks for coming to The Big Picture, man. Thanks for having me. I like spending time with both of you. Thanks, Bill. Okay, let's go to my conversation with Ronaldo Marcus Green. So happy to be joined by Ronaldo Marcus Green. Thank you for coming to the show, Ray. How are you? I'm great, man. Thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting for me. So Ray, this movie is making a lot of noise. People are very excited. I saw it before Tell

Your Ride, but it blew up at Tell Your Ride. Obviously, Will Smith being at the center of it means it's going to be a big deal no matter what. But I'm curious from the very beginning, how do you become part of this story? You have to sell yourself and sell your vision to Will and the Williams family. How do you get involved in becoming the Helmer of King Richard? Probably a lot of other people being unavailable and then being in the right place at the right time. No, I say that jokingly. Look, it's a combination of things, right? About two years ago, it was one of those special Hollywood moments where I got slipped the script by King Richard by like four different people, like who weren't my agent. And I was like,

what is this on the same day? And what is this project? And so of course I have to read it. I read it and I'm like, man, this is a dope script. And fast forward, I call my agent like, hey, why didn't I get it? And he was like, look, we don't have the rights. The family's not involved. And I was like, oh, okay, that makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't do a movie of this magnitude without the family's consent. I said, look, just make sure that my name is in the hat when that day comes. And sure enough, fast forward about six months, I get a phone call from Tim White, one of the producers on the film, who asked if I was available. And I wasn't. I was literally on my way to make my sophomore film. And I was like, man, I've been waiting for

this call. Finally, it comes down and I'm off. And he said, look, we're going to go shoot the movie. We'll catch you on the next one. I said, look, I know how this production thing works. If the dates shift or something happens, let me know. Sure enough, the dates shifted. I was in the final week of production of my sophomore movie, Joe Bell with Mark Wahlberg. And I get a phone call and it's Warner Brothers saying, you know, would you like to meet on this project? And which I did. It was a Zoom because that's where I was in Utah. And from that meeting, I scored a meeting with Will.

So I finished production that week, flew straight to L.A., met with Tim, the producer, and then met with Will. And I knew going into that meeting with Will, I'm like, look, this is a dude from Philly. He probably gets pitches all the time. I'm just going to go in there and have a conversation. So I didn't go in with like a big visual presentation. I just went in there with me, my story, my connection to the material as, you know, sort of a, you know, someone that grew up as an athlete, you know, and, and just said, look, you know, with a father that was as eccentric as, as Richard Williams. And, and I pitched my version of the story. I go back, I get a phone call and they were like, we'll loved you, but did you have a pitch? Where's the visual presentation? I was like,

oh, well, that's good. They're, they're asking me for that. That means, you know, it was, it was sort of my, my own psychology to say, okay, well, that's good. They're asking me for that. That means, you know, it was sort of my own psychology to say, OK, well, that's good. I'm in the conversation. Let me go back. It's easy for me to pull images. And of course, we spoke about movies like Moneyball or, you know, searching for Bobby Fisher and how tonally I saw the film. And I think that really resonated with Will, our relationship to our own children. You know, again, my relationship with my father, I think was a big hit for Will and my understanding of that.

And that, you know, that scored me the job. So how long do you have to wait before you find out if you're going to be able to do this? Like what happens now? So Will liked you and then you have to make another presentation. And then right away, are you finding out you're making this movie?

It was pretty quick because I think they had exhausted their list. And I think once you get to the Will level, they're not putting that many people in front of him. So I was already on the shortest list possible, having been vetted by the producers, having been vetted by, you know,

by the studio. And then let's present will with our, you know, our final list. I don't know who was on the list. I've heard different things at different times. It doesn't matter. Look,

I'm grateful for those people for, for being part of it. I think I really felt, look, I had written my first feature, Monsters and Men, based on my life. And this was the closest I ever felt to any material, including my own. And so going into a project with that level of feeling and authenticity, I knew I was giving that at the very least, they were going to get that version. And it was about a week and a half later after I submitted that visual presentation, I didn't even know how to use Photoshop. You know, I had one of the producers helping me out, like, could you help me? I picked all the images and he helped me kind of, you know,

make it look presentable to send to the studio. And sure enough, I got that call and, you know, it was about a week and a half after that meeting with Will. What about the Williams sisters and the family? Do you have to kind of audition for them for a film like this? So Isha Price, who is a producer on the film, she was part of my initial conversation. So when I spoke to Tim and Trevor, she was already on board. We had gotten the family consent. And so I had written not a visual presentation, but I wrote sort of

my reactions to the script. This is what I think is fantastic. This is where I think, you know, the story can still evolve. So as a director, like it would be sort of my director's past. And I've always approached every meeting as a writer. You know, I've always said, look, this is what's great, but this is where I feel like we can do that. And some of the elements in, let's say, Compton that felt a little, you know, was written, you know, they weren't written on the streets of Compton. So, you know, look, I'm not from Compton, but I'm from an area that I understand what that language is like. And I grew up in an area where I understood how people kind of navigated or walked. So I could add a level of authenticity that I thought, you know, the script kind of needed a little push in that department. And then certain things in the second

and third acts of the film that I thought, especially with regards to the family, that I thought I could help to elevate. And so that was part of my pitch to the family, you know, in terms of the written document that I submitted, that I think, you know, they were very aware of the vision that I was trying to put forth for the film. So I know you played sports growing up. Was it baseball and football? I played baseball primarily. I played high school football, which was probably the closest I ever felt to any human beings on earth, you know, willing to die for each other, which is so insane and crazy and doesn't make any sense. But that's how you feel when you're on the field with, you know, with on the field with pads and

helmets and all that stuff. But I played baseball from the time, literally my first outfit was a New York Mets onesie up until the time I tried out for the Mets and didn't make it. So I played all the way through college, four years of school, had a couple of tryouts and I just didn't make it. I got close and regressed, just got to a level that i i couldn't continue are you are you still a mets guy i'm still a mess i know i know it's crazy because no no i'm a diehard i say it jokingly my father would still be alive today if he if he wasn't a mets fan um you know i think the the the depression over the years but i you know look we we used to go to the hotels, stay in the same hotel, in Hershey Hotel in Philadelphia, and get the autographs and wait for guys to come out.

We were that diehard our whole lives. And of course, I still root. I still wear the hat, whether they're winning or losing. Not today, but it is definitely something I'm passionate about. And I know they'll come back. I really hope you're right about that. So you played team sports. And obviously, the psychology of not just Richard, but Venus and Serena and the whole family is a huge part of this. I assume you didn't play too much tennis growing up either.

So tell me about trying to put that on screen. Because both visually and I think psychologically, there's a lot to portray in a great tennis player or a rising tennis player. How did you think about that? Well, to me, that's a great question because I think I wanted to go to a tennis. I was like, look, if I'm making a tennis movie, it should be a movie that I would want to go to. And I, to be frank, I wasn't that interested in the tennis. You know, I like I definitely interested in two of the

greatest athletes and what they had to endure and sort of the training, the rockiness of it. So I started thinking in terms of, okay, what kind of movie would I want to go see? And how much tennis do we need to tell that story? And to be honest, I didn't think it was that much. And I started thinking about some of my favorite sports movies recently, Moneyball. You know, I consider searching for Bobby Fischer, a sports movie, chess, but it was already inherent in the script, but I could pull back on some of that, you know, tennis heavy stuff that I didn't think was as important to the story. It was more about what aspects of the tennis are driving the narrative functions of the script. Like what is Will going through as he's coaching these girls? What is the family going through as

they're going through and how much of that tennis is helping us to shape that? So the story of tennis in our movie with teaching them the open stance that came from Oristein. So we started to really get specific about the things that we were trying to discuss within those particular scenes, what Richard and Oristein were giving to the girls. Oh, you know, Oristein was, you know, was Serena's coach. And so we see those elements of it. So it really plays to our story and the drama more than just showing great tennis, which I hope we were able to do as well. Yeah, I think you guys definitely did. I'm curious about your perspective on Richard before you started the film. I'm by no means an expert on the Williams family, but in my head for some reason, I think I thought he was this problematic figure or somebody who was lurking in the shadows in maybe not a great way. I think the story is, especially for a film in which the

family is involved, the film's really nuanced about the positives and the negatives that he brought to their family and to the girls in particular. What was your perspective on him first coming into the story? Well, of course, you know, first thing I did because I didn't know much about him was read his book. And I also try to, you know, watch everything that I possibly could on the internet. And obviously the media can portray you a certain way. And, you know, but when you hear Venus and Serena talk about their father, it's very different. And there's a there's a different kind of love there. And so that was the thing that intrigued me most, because we already had this public persona of who Richard Williams was. And I know, especially being a black man growing up at a particular time, I know how that might be

misinterpreted. Having had a father that could have been misinterpreted from the outside world. Look, did in Black families, do we use a certain level of discipline? And it's different in our households than in other households. But does that mean that it's wrong? It was different at that time. In protecting your family, we had to do it a little different. And so I certainly can understand how someone like Richard Williams could be misunderstood. And then, of course, in talking to the family and talking to even Orsine, who obviously we know they're divorced, knowing that, you know, they've moved on from each other. But how amicable they were, how much they did work together as a team for their children. And all of those girls like contribute Richard Williams to their success. You know, combination mom as well, for sure.

But how much Richard is involved in their lives, was involved in their life, and how much they loved their father, how much he protected them. And the perfect video, I think, to really describe that is that interview, which he interjects himself. That actually happens after the timeline on our film.

It wasn't in the original script, but I was like, that embodies who Richard is, right it's very complicated it's not so straightforward here's somebody that is saying something that is very different than another cultural probably saying that may not have to do that i'm you're dealing with a 14 year old black kid different different than just a 14 year old kid not any kid 14, 14 year old, young black girl. And so just understanding that like where his mind was at in terms of protecting his family was something that we really wanted to lay into. And of course, like you said, not sugarcoating some of the things that, you know we know about Richard,

I've come to know and wanted to make sure that we didn't gloss over it and that it made it way. Look, it's a two hour and however many minute movie. You can only put so much in there. But I think in terms of how we try to disperse the information and lay it out, I think the audience can take something away from it. I'm always fascinated by a docudrama like this. And how important was it to you specifically that the movie not just feel true, be factual that it be accurate you mentioned that you know you moved the timeline a little bit how conscious of that are you are you worried about people saying well this isn't really how this really happened yeah no i think look just keeping it real and what i mean like like i said that the interview actually happened we just moved

it you know and it takes a new context in our film it doesn't make it wrong it just it just it gives it new life. The final match in the movie was an indoor arena with not 7,000 people. It was probably a couple hundred. It's not as cinematic. And we're ramping up to make a big movie at a big moment. And the drama of it is as important. So I think those liberties, I think, are important for audiences, especially when we're on such an abbreviated timeline. There were several moments in the film that we had to do that, you know, with Venus and Richard on the court. Like, did it really happen on the court? No. Did that conversation happen? Yes.

Did it happen? You know, is that, you know, a lot of conversations, an amalgamation of conversations? Absolutely. But it's the essence that's more important than the facts of how it happened. We know what went into those stories and that we did have Isha as a producer on the film. We had Landrea Price as a costumer on the film. We had real family members that could help to tell their story.

And I just had to let them know we were making a movie and they were cool. They grew up watching movies. They understood. They totally understood. I said, look, the movie has to ramp up in the second and third act. Like they were very aware of what we needed to do in order to make it cinematic. That happened through conversations with obviously Zach Balin, who wrote a great script, you know, and my DP, Robert Elswit, who, you know, who's also just a genius at what he does. Many conversations went into elevating those aspects of the script. I got even more excited about the movie when I saw that Elswit was shooting it with you. So how did that happen?

You know, why did he want to be a part of this? Obviously, he is one of the greats. Yeah. So I was, I had the fortunate, um, I took my little first film monsters and men to Sundance in 2018. Um, I, that the summer before the 2017, uh, Sundance runs a director's lab and I was invited to the director's lab and at the director's lab, Robert Ellsworth was one of the advisors that year. So it was Pam Martin who ended up being my editor as well. So I met them both there at the lab organically on my first film. Now, neither

one of them ended up being my advisors at the lab. And I was so like, kind of bummed out about it. I was like, man, I'm on the mountain. Two of my favorite are here and I didn't get a chance. But I, you know, me being a hustler, I went up to them and exchanged contact information and just said, look, maybe one day we'll work together. You know, little did I know I was going to be up for this big movie. And sure enough, Robert was the very first person I thought of, look, I, you know, I think he's a, he's a genius, um, not only because he's won an Oscar, but just, I've been a fan of his work since Boogie Nights and all the things that he shot and everything that I've learned from him in film school. And he just so happened to be in LA. He lives in LA. He's from LA. And so I thought maybe he'd be

home and want to stay home and make a movie. And sure enough, he remembered meeting me at the lab. I reached out via email. We met for breakfast and he was like, I'll do it. And I was like, wait, did Robert Ellis would just say he was going to do it over breakfast? It was awesome. It was amazing. I wasn't living in LA at the time. And so I thought to myself, look, when I come to LA, I'm going to find out where Robert lives. I'm going to get a place up the street. And that's exactly what I did. I moved in very close to Robert. Now, all of a sudden, he's going to have a neighbor and we're going to meet every day. And that guy taught me so much about his work ethic, how much prep goes in before prep, how much thought goes into the script.

We never talked camera. We didn't talk lenses. We talked script. We talked character motivation. It was the best film school I ever had in terms of just meeting someone that is an encyclopedia of movies. We went to the movies weekly.

That was part of our dating. You know, like he would just say, let's go to the movies. Let's go see every movie that's ever made. It's like, really? You want to see that movie? Like he sees everything, like good or bad. Where I'd be like, no, I don't know if I really, like he just goes to see it.

And so all of a sudden I'm watching everything, you know, not just the things that I like or things that I might like. And that just was like, it was such a broad experience for me that I didn't have. He opened my eyes to a different way of looking at things. And I'll be forever grateful for that relationship. And he's become a friend in the process and just an amazing collaborator. But it's not just him. Look, he's rolled with the same guys, the same ACs, like for 20, 30 years.

And so when you get Robert Ellsworth, you're also getting Chris Santrella, his key grip. And you're like, man, what's the value of the key grip And the value that these, you know, these, these crew positions that we're adding was just incredible from first AC to gaffer. And now I'm on a first name basis with quite frankly, in other films, I just had never gotten to that level before. And the way his crew opened up, it was amazing how they had his back, how much each one of them are filmmakers and storytellers um from his steady cam operators to his second acs uh it's amazing it's a true family and and the value that they brought to our film was was enormous and immense it's not the things it's such a thankless job at sometimes

right you know nobody's reading the credits when it gets, you know, once you leave the movie, but like, those are the real heroes of our film is really our below the line crew who was able to really, you know, help us elevate, elevate what I think hopefully is a, is a special film. It does feel like a real leveling up for you as a filmmaker too. I was wondering, I mean, this is a movie with a big budget, arguably the biggest movie star in the world. It's obviously a well-known story featuring people we know like Jevony, anxiety, tension, fears. Anything surprise you about being on a set like this? Absolutely.

Look, you just don't want to mess it up, right? But then I think the threshold was so high that it was like, well, I guess I can only be me at this point. I mean, with Venus and Serena and Will, it's like, there's just too much to think about. So I just have to be me, right? Look, I'm a kid that was born in the Bronx. I grew up with a mother, you know, grew up with a father and a brother and, you know, and a small bedroom. We never owned a house. Like for me to be even there is just, it's just, I was so fortunate to have come from where I come from to be standing there. And I think what I love about the Williams family is they never they never allowed looked at those things as limitations.

Right. They only looked at them as things that that could help them actually thrive in an environment like that. And I think I felt that I felt like my story could be told here, Like my version of this story could be told here. And I understand, look, I didn't grow up to be the greatest athlete of all time, you know, but like, maybe I'm on that path.

Like, at least that's going to be the path I'm going to try to get to as a filmmaker. And like, I think that's an inspiration for a lot of kids. And if I came in with that, that like, you know,

mentality, I can't, I can't lose here if I don't try and I'm just going to put it all out, but I'm a sponge. Like, like I said, I'm going to move close to Robert Ellsworth and meet with him every day. Like, that's just who I am. So there was no like short, like once I got that opportunity, it was like, now I'm going to really take this opportunity to the, to the very next level that I possibly could. We met with Will for eight weeks. We were at his house daily, basically working on the script. I was asking Will to do things that maybe he was like,

oh, you know, like really Saturday rehearsals? Like, I don't know, but I'm going to ask him. All he could do is say no. But Will was very receptive to that. And I think, you know, look, I just came in with an attitude that I can't, you know, of course you could always fail, but I'm going to just put my best foot forward and see what happens and not worry about, not worry about the rest. I know how to make movies. I went to film school. I took that $330,000 debt for a reason. And I'm, and I'm going to show everybody that, that I deserve to be here. I hope you're paying it down now. I hope so too. We'll see. We'll see.

We have a very small connection to this film here at The Ringer. We produced a documentary a few years ago called Showbiz Kids. And one of the kids in the film was one of your stars, Demi Singleton. Wow. And it was portraying her kind of like trying to book jobs and trying to come up in the world. And it was interesting to watch her. I wouldn't say she was struggling, but she was early on. So then I sat down to watch her movie and I was like, holy shit. Not only is she in this movie, but she's playing Serena Williams in this movie. Tell me about working with kids, especially kids

trying to portray these well-known figures and athletes. It feels like a hard job for a young girl. Yeah, I'm sure it was so tough for those girls. Look, my first career, I was a teacher. I taught kindergarten through fifth grade. I've taught middle school. I've taught high school. That was my first career before I decided, before I became a filmmaker, you know, years after that. So I had some experience working with children before, not as actors, but just being able to communicate with kids and related to children. I love that. That's just, you know, it was part of my DNA. That's what I got my first message in education. So I had I was coming to that to the table. Demi and Sanaya, look, they're undeniable talents.

It wasn't their first rodeo. So we were lucky. Demi had worked with, you know, Forrest Whitaker. Sanaya had worked with Viola and Denzel. So they had they had some street cred coming in. You know, and that is super helpful. You know, they had been on big sets with big movie stars before. And when we saw their auditions, they blew us away. They had a level of vulnerability, but they also could act. And sometimes that non-actor thing is great and they're coming in raw, but sometimes you just need stamina. And I think that's what actors are able to do is on third, fourth, fifth, sixth takes being able to keep pushing and still go through. And that's what those girls were able

to do. You know, I think we were fortunate to have a lot of prep time. They went through a rigorous training in terms of the tennis acumen that they needed to learn on this, putting their bodies through a real physical, you know, I mean, probably physical health for them, you know, never having played tennis, not really being on any teams, they're theater kids, you know, I mean, probably physical health for them, you know, never having played tennis, not really being on any teams, they're, they're theater kids, you know, and now they're running up and down doing suicides. And they're like, I thought I didn't have to do this, but, but to get the tennis right, we did. And, and, and those girls, look, it's a testament to their own families. They were on set with us. They had moms and dads that were there taking them to dropping them off, sitting with. It was like watching my dad at the baseball game sitting in the outfield.

And I'm like, oh, that's the same thing that these parents are doing for their kids. They had a support system. Wonderful, wonderful human beings, amazing talents. I'm sure it was difficult, but I think the the more difficult the most difficult thing for them was probably the legacy of the of the williams of the williams family um more than working with will and ingenue and these other heavy hitters it was like man i'm representing um you know living legends and how do i do that and i think it was a testament to when venus and serena showed up on set and both girls were in tears and it was was just like, you could see how much they were, that was truly weighing on their shoulders, but it also was a great moment for them because they felt like they got that sign off. They got that, like, you're doing, you're doing

great kid. Like it was amazing. It was amazing for them. It was an amazing moment for them, uh, for us to witness. Um, yeah, just, just, just, just true stars in the making, um, you know, before this show for sure. But, but definitely, but definitely this will put them on another level. So you mentioned a couple of the sports movies that you looked at that inspired this. I think this is kind of hands down the best sports movie since Moneyball. And part of that is because the film is so great and so effective and performances are so wonderful. But also, there's not as many sports movies as there used to be. I'm wondering, like, are they really difficult to make? Is that why? Is that it's something about the nature of the business right now that we don't see as many of

these? What do you think? What do you attribute that to? Yeah, I think they are difficult to make and, you know, look, there are the tent poles, right? You have 42 and, you know, you get Creed and they're the big movies, you know, usually by movie stars in order to put butts in seats. Moneyball, even with Brad Pitt, I don't know how it did commercially. One of my favorite films, I mean, Bennett Miller like smashes that movie. Foxcatcher smashes that movie. I don't know how many people saw it, you know, and this is different because you have Will Smith and people come out. Hopefully people come out for Will movies.

They're difficult to make because, again, a traditional sports movie, especially about a sport that not a lot of people know about. It could be boring. It could be boring. Look, I'm a baseball player. And I know for my wife, she's like, you know, I don't, yeah. Like I'm not interested in watching a baseball movie. I'll go to a baseball game. Cause I have, I can get a hot dog and all this other stuff, but you know, like watching baseball could be very boring for somebody that doesn't know.

And so we just wanted to make a great movie, which is why the family aspects of our film is so important, right? We weren't, we weren't interested in making a tennis movie. I was interested in making a movie about a family that had tennis in it. And that was the approach. And look, hopefully those final matches feel like you've been waiting for them and waiting to see some really, really good tennis on screen and that they pay off. And obviously without giving too much away for anybody that hasn't seen it, you know, our film, you know, it, it, it, it comes to a climax, a different climax at the end.

And the morals of our story is very different than your traditional sports film. And so I think those are the things that we leaned into heavy on, on this. I don't know if it's any more difficult than making just a great movie. They're all hard to make sports, non-sports. They're all difficult. I think biopics in general, like you said, are tough because you have a lot of involvement. And do you get the watered down version? Do you get the hagiography? And we really tried our best to stay away from all of those things that would have made it feel like that. I know I cringe when I watch those movies, and I certainly didn't want anybody cringing when they

were watching ours. So those are the things that we try to avoid where you can the best you can when making a film. You are currently at work on We Own This City with David Simon and George Pelicanos and Jon Bernthal and Jamie Hector. I have a hundred questions about that, but we're running a little short on time. Maybe you'll come back when you guys are ready to put that out in the world. In the meantime, Ray, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen. Sounds like Elzwe took you to a lot of movies. I don't know if you've seen anything recently that you really loved. What did I see recently that I really loved?

You know, I was late to the Nomadland game. And I hate to say it because we were shooting a movie. But I saw that movie and look, Chloe went to NYU. She's a friend and somebody that I knew. So I felt so guilty. I hadn't seen it until recently. But I think she smashed that movie. And it was really amazing to see, you know, someone that, you know, she could have been making anything she wanted. And she made a really pure,

a pure film with a great big heart. And I thought that was special. I saw the filmmaker in her, that girl at NYU that I met, you know, years ago, making something. And it helps to keep your feet on the ground, that you can get someone as talented as her lead actress to come and do a tiny movie with no lights. It felt special. It felt raw. And as a filmmaker, you can appreciate what she had to kind of go through to make that movie.

So I really appreciated that film and seeing it when I did as quiet after all the critics and all that stuff. So it was a good one to end on. Hey man, congratulations on King Richard. I feel like it's going to be making a lot of noise into the spring. So thank you for doing the show, Ronaldo.

Awesome, man. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. You bet. you for doing the show ronaldo awesome man thank you for having me i really appreciate it you bet okay thank you to ronaldo marcus green bill simmons amanda dobbins and our producer bobby wagner for his work on this episode next week who you're gonna call ghostbusters see you then. Wow, you didn't let me sing the theme song.