The Big Picture - ‘Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes’ and the 'Apes' Movie Rankings

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

Sean and Amanda are joined by Van Lathan to discuss the new installment in the ‘Planet of the Apes’ franchise, the enduring power of the ‘Apes’ IP, and how it relates to modern IP storytelling (1:00). Finally, they rank the 10 films in the franchise (1:05:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Van Lathan Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer, then you're in luck, because every episode of The Rewatchables and The Big Picture, now on YouTube. Like Bill said, Ringer Movies will feature full episodes of my show, The Big Picture, The Rewatchables, as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history, and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie-loving Ringer personalities. Search Ringer Movies on YouTube and experience the joy chris ryan impersonating wayne jenkins on camera get groceries delivered across the gta from real canadian superstore with pc express

shop online for super prices and super savings try it today and get up to 75 I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about apes. The big winner at the weekend box office was Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. So we're diving into the new film, which is the 10th movie in the Apes franchise.

Did you know that? 10th? Yes. The 4th. Oh, you're talking about overall. Overall. 10 movies. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right. So there have been 10 so far. Van Leithen is here. What's up, guys? Big fan of the Apes franchise. Love it. You've already recorded one podcast about

the Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, but we wanted you here for already recorded one podcast about the kingdom of the planet of the Apes but we wanted you here for a wider discussion of this franchise. Was that Midnight Boys? Yeah, it was Midnight Boys. When do I get a Midnight Boys invite?

You guys, we've actually called you guys out. We want you guys on here. I know, but I feel like it's mostly directed at Sean. No. And that seems fair to me.

Right. And I would love to come when it felt appropriate. When we could meet in the middle. So, I think there's synergy me. Right. And I would love to come when it felt appropriate, when we could meet in the middle. So I think there's synergy here. Okay. And I wanted to propose this. This was one of the reasons

why I wanted to come. Yeah. I think we should do a big picture Midnight Boys crossover for Deadpool versus Wolverine. Yeah, I'm with it. I'm so with it. And because Sean got me right

about the fact that you guys have been very, very serious in covering the Deadpool movies. You love the Deadpool movies. Well, I do. Yeah, you're pointing at one person here. And this Deadpool movie is one of the most consequential movies

in big Hollywood studio history in a long time. Many people are saying it's the most important movie in the history of the Midnight Boys. That if this goes sideways, we're in trouble. What is the show?

What are you guys doing? Are you pivoting to crocheting? Will you be covering? What else could you cover on the show? Could be Anime Corner. Charles would love that. Cricket.

I'm into Cricket now. Cricket. Microsoft Flight Simulator. All of these things I'm into now. I'd like to go back to Cricket for a second. Yeah.

Are you watching or playing? Watching. Okay. How long did it take you to learn all the rules? I'm into now. I'd like to go back to cricket for a second. Yeah. Are you watching or playing? Watching. Okay. How long did it take you to learn all the rules? I don't know them. Okay, good. I don't know what happened. That makes me feel better.

You just like to watch. It's a fun sport to look at. I can't remember where I was. Man, Caligula was somewhere. And I'm not even going to try to remember. And the only thing we could get on TV was cricket because we were out of the country. Yeah.

And I was trying to watch something on ESPN and it was literally ESPN of that region. And so it was cricket all day long. 24-7. Yeah. And I just watched it. Whatever sport was on, I'll watch it. And now I'm kind of into cricket. Okay.

Let's discuss that strategy when you pivot to cricket on Midnight Boys and just how to execute on that. Because there's a wide international audience. They go international. Yeah, that's great. I don't know stateside how the show will do. Big in the West Indies, big in India, big in England. We would dominate here. World tour.

Midnight Boys world tour. World tour, yeah. You want to spend nine weeks in India? Probably not, but I would go there for maybe one week. Yeah, sure. Sure. I would do two. Two weeks in India, live from Mumbai?

Yeah. You think they would have us? You think they'd listen to the big picture? I have no idea, but I've never been to India. I'm curious. Maybe jam session world tour. I'd like to see the world. Yeah.

Did you guys cover any Bollywood? I'm learning a lot about Bollywood. Not really. You know, I think we're probably overdue for a more expansive. We talked a lot about RRR when it came out, which is really more Tollywood. But we could stand. Frankly, we would need an expert.

I'm no expert. Are you an expert in Bollywood? I don't think so. I remember when I watched Slumdog Millionaire, I was so surprised at the end because the movie was very grounded, very, it was one of those movies where I went, oh my God, what a story.

And then in the credits, they began to dance. The dancing, yeah. And I was like, what the fuck is going on? It's a tradition. It's a tradition. And then I learned more about it. I did not know anything about Bollywood. Then I learned about Bollywood.

I learned about Nollywood over in Nigeria. Lots of different woods out there. Yeah. There's, of course, The Wood, one of our favorite movies. There you go. Yeah, Sean, you're on the uh okay apes so this is the i guess the relaunch of this franchise new director for the fourth time for i yeah for the fourth time the fourth relaunch the fourth relaunch which is

remarkable to think about the first movie was 1968. The previous trilogy, I think is generally very well liked, very well reviewed. I think, I was trying to think about the franchise hierarchy in terms of quality in the world. You guys talk about this all the time too, but it's like,

to me, it's kind of Mission Impossible, John Wick. Apes is not really far behind for me personally, my favorites. And I have a lot of affection, especially for them two Matt Reeves movies

that came out in 14 and 17. This movie feels closer to those two than anything that had come before that. It's directed by Wes Ball, who is best known for directing Chris Ryan's favorite trilogy, the Maze Runner films. You seen those?

Seen one of them. Me too. I've only seen one now. They're actually good it's okay it's good i mean it's a fun it was doing the ya boom yeah and it's as serious i guess hunger games would be it's it's a pretty serious ya movie it takes itself pretty seriously which i dug about i thought it was cool yeah in that realm of movies it's definitely better than your divergence um yeah that was a tough that's a tough

one for everyone involved but it's it's sorry miles teller if you're listening i thought the first one actually just had a lot in common with kingdom of the planet of the apes where it's like a very constructed world a lot of jungle atmosphere survival story people on the move um lots of digital effects happening but set in the natural world which is kind of hard to pull off. Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, I thought, looked very good. Agree. Beautifully rendered. It's a movie that is almost entirely apes, which is a challenge.

We talked about this when we even saw the trailer. We were like, can they pull this off? In general, a little disappointed by this movie. I was expecting to like it more than I did. Amanda, what did you think? I was a little bored by this movie i was expecting to like it more than i did uh amanda what did you think i was a little bored as well i don't think that i expected to like it as much as you did because the trailer did give tell that this was more of a it was it was about the apes you were just like out there in the jungle and a little bit closer to war of the planet of the eights which is the third matt reeves, well, the

third in the last trilogy and the second Matt Reeves movie, and is really just like apes fighting for a while. And that's cool, and it looks really good, and there's a lot of technical craft and achievement that goes into that. But I find that that is not what interests me about these franchises. So once you get past the setup of this movie, I was like, okay, they got to go from point A to point B. And it takes a very long time for this movie. It's two and a half hours long.

So I dug it, but I understand what you guys are talking about. I think what I dug about the movie, because I gave it an 8 out of 10 over on the Midnight Voice, which is solid plus, you know what I dug about the movie, because I gave it an 8 out of 10 over on the Midnight Voice, which is solid plus. You know what I mean? Like, not elite, but hey, I'm still interested, basically. That's what I'm saying. the first three movies, the two Matt Reeves ones and then the other one is that the difference in the franchise is that there's no

big human star to ground and anchor the movie. So it's not, this is not, obviously they had Hugh shall not be named in the first movie and then it-

Voldemort was in the first movie? He was in the first movie. No, Franco was in it. But there's no like, okay, go see this movie. Caesar was the star. And Andy Serkis playing Caesar. The second film is

Jason Clarke and Keri Russell and Gary Oldman. It's a pretty loaded cast of human actors. Human actors. And then you have Woody Harrelson in the third one. So they always give you

big time human actors, but it's not their movie. Right. I thought no Caesar in this movie was a big challenge for them because you have to reorient this whole world around apes that we don't have very much history with we remember caesar when he was flipping around like the whole nine blah blah he's dead it's 300 years

later i thought judging it through that lens as a reset for the franchise I thought they did a pretty good job of pointing the story in a new direction. However, the movie itself at times lagged. At times you're wondering, what are we doing here? Charles Holmes saying, but I liked it enough because I'm invested enough into the world. Yeah, I like the world too. I'm kind of obsessed with these movies. I think that's why I was disappointed. I just had high expectations because I really expect something great from these movies. Because even the first five movies, the original 60s and 70s movies,

even when their production values are low and they're silly, there's so many ideas in them. And there's some ideas in this movie, but it's not as deep as I was hoping it would be. It's a little bit more,

like you said, it's a real journey adventure movie. It's an experiential movie. It's like, would you like to hang out with the apes for a really long time and find out what it's like to be in the ape society? And my answer to that is like, eh. I'm interested in the ideas in these movies as parables about humanity, but also society.

They're very clever. And this was, again, beautifully rendered, but it was just kind of like, well, sometimes bad things happen in like the ape community and then you got to go find the wise ape and then you got to, you know, find the key or whatever that was.

What was it? The, what do you mean? The, like the disk drive? The SATCOM key. Yeah, the SATCOM key. Can I cape for the movie for a second? Yeah, of course. I'm going to cape for the movie a little bit.

I'm glad you're here. Keep the energy up. So, this is what I would say. The movie is ambitious in the fact that they are obviously throwing some competing concepts at you. You know what I mean? The bad apes in this movie are very human. Sure. They're human-coded.

They have advanced technology. The good apes here, the Eagle Clan, they're nativists. So that goes back to this whole thing that people do in movies sometimes, which means the native people are inherently good because of the symbiosis they have to the land and all of that. And they know how to use it. And then the people that come along with the technology, they're always bad because they're going to be exploitive. And they actually put apes into slavery here. This is some real heavy real life symbolism that's going on. Progress is defined by, you know,

destroying civilizations and wrecking people's lives. Domination, all of that. They want guns. Right. They want to, they're going for the worst parts of humanity. Then you have a weird human in there that's got a foot in both worlds. And then you have humans

that have lost all their language and stuff. The movie, when you parse it out, is throwing a lot at you. I think it does a great job of sort of bifurcating and trifurcating on whatever, all the little different things that it's doing. I think any one part of it.

But I think the melding of it is where the movie loses itself. Like, who am I supposed to care about at one point? When the proto-humans came out, I thought, oh, okay, well, now we're going to get to see what has happened to us. They're gone. There's almost no reason to have them in the movie except to show that they exist for some reason. Just that there is an enemy.

Yeah. And to make the bad apes seem worse. So I think what I appreciated was the blueprint of the film to get us into the new world. I don't think that anyone that watched it would be like, yo, I was completely invested

into every different part of what the movie was trying to do. And I also liked Noah a lot. See, this is where I... You don't like Noah. I just didn't... You mentioned that the movie is missing Caesar,

which is, of course, the lead ape from the previous trilogy portrayed by Andy Serkis. If you care about this kind of thing, it's widely considered one of the great motion capture performances ever. That's literally a digitally created character that has a genuine arc over those three movies

that you watch change, that you watch change its perspective, develop, have like literally a political philosophy. I mean, it's a pretty interesting development of that kind of a character. Noah, and this is really ultimately my issue with the movie, which is written by Josh Friedman, who is the writer of the Avatar sequels.

The story you just described about the more primitive society versus the advanced society, very much baked into the Avatar story. Very much baked into the classical adventure Campbellian hero's journey story is that this movie- What the hell does Campbellian mean? Joseph Campbell is the author of the hero's journey theory

and writing that explains- See what the hell I'm talking about? That's Sean Finnessy right there. movie is cambellian me joseph campbell is the author of the hero's journey theory and and writing that that explains see what the hell i'm talking about that's sean finnish right there but it's it's i think i think i'm up here i think i'm playing in the same weight class i'm fighting you are you are but you're explaining why you like something and and why i'm a little disappointed by it but but it it relates i, specifically to what we've seen before. The movie that I could not stop thinking about while watching this movie was Star Wars A New Hope. So the framework of this movie and Star Wars A New Hope, a dramatic raid on a family's home. An inexperienced but naturally gifted young member of a small clan encounters a wizened monk who worships at the altar of an ancient religion. Together they encounter a chosen woman

looking to lead a rebellion before together they confront an empire of zealots who use might to control their world led by a speechifying history-obsessed dictator. An epic battle ensues for the fate of the world. That's Star Wars. Yeah. It's true.

Star Wars is great. I love Star Wars. Yeah, though you're missing Han Solo. This is it. And then you're also, frankly, your Leia comparison is spot on, but that ain't Leia. Like, that is a character that is not developed or at all compelling. I fully agree with you.

This is actually... Look at me with the Star Wars. We're missing some ingredients that elevate what is just framework. Like, what i just described is framework that happens in many many movies so i like you mentioned um this primitive civil society is like apocalypto is kind of a movie that is like this i've seen that comparison made to this movie a lot too the mel gibson movie that movie is technically brilliant but kind of boring

to me in some ways because it only does what Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes is doing in terms of the storytelling. It glides on ambition. Yes. Apocalypto. So it's tough because the craft

of the movie is crazy. Like even if you look at the Matt Reeves movies where you're like, wow, in seven years we've actually made a lot of progress.

These apes like look better than they did back then. Yeah, they totally do. We're really hard on digital effects a lot of times and I thought that

this movie looked great. No, I do as well. Like, they totally did. We're really hard on digital effects a lot of times. And I thought that this movie looked great. No, I do as well. Like, I, and blended, and you're just, you're not sitting there picking apart, like, oh, that's, it is fully realized. But, I mean, again, it has that avatar thing where you can't deny the, like, the technical prowess, but you're like, okay, now i'm just like in this world random world that you created and they're whether it's like their whales or they're like you know elon musk monkeys or whatever and i'm like and i'm like and we can all learn things from this you know like i

i see what you're trying to tell me about our world in this world but i don't mean to say immersive as as in a derogatory way but there is something almost like the losing yourself in this world is prioritized over the tying it to to this world so i'm gonna ask you guys to make a guess yeah did i like avatar to the way of water i feel like you didn't. You loved it. I knew that. No, of course you did. Yeah. I knew that.

I liked it. I definitely liked it. Give me blue pills. Save the whales. Animals, animals, animals. I don't know if you guys know how much I'm into animals. Animals, animals, animals. Out of here.

Easy work. Done. So, so, so, like, easy. Take my money. Can't wait till the next one so um uh so the reason why i i like to know him is because by the end of our time with caesar caesar was one of the greatest leaders in movie history caesar had like like you said a political point of view a cultural point of view, a cultural point of view. He had an understanding, a complete, not dominance, but he was a leader and not a boss.

Like Caesar. Like his namesake, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think it was very smart to take that Luke Skywalker prototype, that monkey everyman, ape everyman, and reorient the movie around him he seemed to be in peril every step that he took he at times was annoyingly weak but seriously like his namesake yeah i mean you know definitely that's part of it it's right there yeah it's like and um i thought that he got enough you couldn't we couldn't redo caesar's arc when we first meet

caesar obviously caesar is like an actual regular ape right he had nothing yeah he's patient zero yeah yeah um but i thought the fact that i was invested into noah and i was invested into the eagle clan and that i was there with him i forgot i was well so i and i like i respect that's what you that's why you're like your heart is very big and has rooms for lots of animals and i for the first 30 minutes was like now i gotta care about birds too you know and i was just like oh you hate birds like did jonathan franzen write this like what are we you're like are you scared of birds? Yeah, I don't trust birds.

Are you fucking kidding me? It's tough. It's tough with birds. And I think this movie actually respects the power of birds. It does. But I'm like, oh, Jesus, you know? In the first 10 minutes of the movie, I was literally sitting down there. Jomie was next to me. I was like, man, they got birds.

I'm done. I love animals. And so. Have you ever done any falconry? I would never. No. Oh. Because it's scary?

Tell me more. Yeah. Okay. It's like, I love to watch. I would love to watch. So you also respect them? Yeah. But like, okay.

So we share a respect for the power of the animal. Oh, yeah. But you're drawn towards it. Oh, I watch eagle videos all day. I don't want to meet the eagle. There are very few animals that I want to meet. Same. Yeah, I don't want to meet them.

But I like the way, because I don't think I should be able to meet them. I think that zoos are wrong. Yeah. And there's a big debate that we've had on how to learn. You're not going to retread it, the whole deal. But... I remember this. Yeah.

We had two different people that made the case for why we need zoos and then why zoos suck. Anyway. You're going to have to explain that to my daughter because the zoo is a very important place for her. It's a big deal for kids. Actually, I was taken by both arguments. It's fine.

But this was kind of like a story at the zoo for me. You sure? With eagles and apes and they had tasers and the whole nine. So I really got into the movie. When we left and we were talking about it, and even on The Midnight Boys when you listened to us, I enjoyed the film, but there's like not going to be, I can understand the parts of it that people couldn't connect with it was very

long at times it lost you i think the no the uh the may character is just a very poorly written and thin character completely one of one of the one of the kind of most almost absent-minded odd characters that i've seen in a movie that was this big in a long, long time? Well, you know, the movie, this one more so than any of the Reeves movies or even the Tim Burton movie, has a lot of callbacks, like Easter eggs, to the original films. And the May character is originally called Nova because Nova is the name of the female character opposite Charlton Heston in the first film. Who does not speak. Who does not speak. And then Heston in the first film. Who does not speak. Who does not speak.

And then comes back in the second movie and also does not speak. Right. So, you know, she's a prop in that movie. And she's very beautiful. The actress who plays her, the actress who plays Freya Allen, who plays Mae. Right. Okay, Nova is also very beautiful. But you would think if they were making a comment on that and the joke about Nova being an undeveloped female character

who's like eye candy in the original film that they would maybe flesh out May a little bit that we would better understand her experience her point of view

on the world what it is that she's trying to do I do think I had a little bit of that like Marvel energy at the end of the movie

where I was like I kind of want to see what's happening next like I kind of want to know you know the end of the movie where I was like I was kind of bored for the like final 45 minutes of the movie where I was like, I kind of want to see what's happening next. Like, I kind of want to know the end of the movie where I was like, I was kind of bored for the, like, final 45 minutes of the movie. And then I was like, shit, what are they going to do with the

apes now? I mean, they've just, they've flipped the franchise around, right? And so they, like, very clearly at the end of this movie are setting up spoiler warning that may finds the other humans and she puts the disc drive or whatever the hell that is into the sat nav and you know they talked to fort wayne indiana or whatever they are and it's like okay now she is going to reconnect with human people

and maybe learn about all that. So it's sort of like they're setting up movie two to be like the YA Planet of the Apes about her. And she is like a very, very, she's younger. It is like, it is YA, it's undercoded. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah she's Jennifer Lawrence I'll tell you that will fail you think

oh no no no if they orient the movie around that character that's not gonna work yeah and let me tell you but Noah as her opposite because that's what

the movie is setting up and we are like we have spoiled the movie and I deeply apologize we'll put a spoiler warning before we get into this part of the discussion if you haven't seen it yet

but no it's okay 55 million dollars worth of people saw it a lot of people saw it it's a very very big and i want to talk about that too but i think the idea of restarting the war and then maybe showing us a world in which like the humans get power back there's interesting potential for more ideas in the movie i felt like the big ideas of this movie were just like a little bit rehashed from previous films. It was like, oh, so people who seize power

by manipulating and building fascistic societies where they convince their lesser educated citizens to follow great leaders who are actually doing evil things. Like it was just kind of very 101 like that whole the elon musk ape played very well i thought by kevin durant i thought kevin durant was great he's he's a meme now he's a what isn't he a meme now no no who's the meme who's the meme there's a new character that's a meme one of the one of the apes is you guys haven't been on i haven't seen this no seen this. No. What does it mean?

Ape X? Yeah. Sorry. We can't even do that. You're on apex.com? Okay, well, now I have to pull up. Here, show me. You have the cast list.

Pull it up for me. Rock, not Rocka. No, not Rocka. Rocka was my favorite, obviously. Rocka is amazing. The movie kind of dies a little bit when Rocka leaves. There was no reason, in my opinion,

to off Rocka. I thought he should come back at the was no reason, in my opinion, to off Raka. I thought he should come back at the end. Yeah, I thought Raka was going to survive. There's no reason to off Raka. Raka, to me, was such an important character because he was actually the connection between the old society of apes that Caesar represented and Noah, and he was preserving language. Yes.

And so to me, when I was like, why? That's kind of like an Obi-Wan Kenobi situation, although Obi-Wan stays around. Yes. Well, he reappears, you know, in different form, which I thought for sure they were going to do that. I thought for sure they were going to reintroduce Raka, maybe in some sort of different form, but that he would come back and get on the ship near the end of the movie, and they didn't do that.

But there's Raka, there's Suna, who was Noah's love interest. Anaya, the best friend? No, so I figured out, so it's Koba from the old franchise. Oh, Koba. Yeah, Koba has been memed, but which is also maybe telling that none of these characters got memed.

It had to be an old name. Koba in heat holding a machine gun, though, during the bank heist. It's really good. My favorite was Maurice from the last franchise. That's the big... Not the orangutan, but... I think it's the orangutan.

But he's nice. Yeah. He's like Caesar's concilator. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went deep into War of the Planet of the Apes, like Dawn of the Planet... What's the name of this one again? Kingdom. Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. like Dawn of the Planet. What's the name of this one again? Kingdom.

Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. So I went deep into this on Twitter. And there's a whole Reddit that I got connected to that talks about the fact that Proximus might be the descendants of Nova, or whatever his name is. Or what's his name? Coba.

Coba. Oh, interesting. There are people that are talking about family lines, Noba or whatever his name is or what's his name Coba Coba oh interesting there are people that are talking about family lines the tree who are Caesar's descendants who are these

is this guy Caesar's descendant no it's probably Coba's descendant and all of that when I get lore heavy that's what gets me if I spend a day

into going deep into the movie you'll never I'll never get away from it I spent at least two years on Cloverfield. Two years. Just different theories about Cloverfield.

And what have you found? What have you discovered? Nothing came of it. Everything that we thought was going to happen with Cloverfield, none of it happened. JJ abandoned us. Like nothing that we thought.

I guarantee you there'll be another Cloverfield movie. Well, it's been a long time. That is a brand. They did it, but they've tried. 10 Cloverfield Lane was pretty good. That was good. It was really good. Paradox is not good.

Not great. But back to this, though. So the real thing that bothered me, obviously what you're saying is now there's going to be a fight for the surface of the Earth between the apes and the humans, right? Number one, the apes are completely overmatched. It's not going to be much of a fight for the surface of the earth between the apes and the humans, right? Number one, the apes are completely overmatched. It's not going to be much of a fight, right?

If they have gotten technology back, humans will win. Yes, the apes are going to be completely overmatched. And number two, they established that there is no greater ape society, that the apes are very clan dependent and they're warring amongst themselves. And so I don't think that the movie did a good job. I'm interested in the future of it, but I honestly thought that the weirdest choice of all the choices they made

was to make her going after a sat key and then there's humans that still have technology. They're cleaning themselves of any type of the virus is still out there i thought that was oddly placed and weird i thought that humans that to bring the movie back around to where it's human centered at the end to where our mission to regrain the world is the center of the film almost it ends with that was odd and i was like no human get away with the human okay if anything i'd be more interested in human beings relearning the world and stuff like that so the more that i started to understand that she was kind of she had a mission

and then william h macy was there as some sort of human slave intellectual concubine. I kind of enjoyed that. Yeah, but I'm saying... Just happy to see him, yeah. That part of it, especially after 300 years, I was... That's the part of it that I wasn't into as much. So related to that, I was thinking about this the whole time in the final hour of the movie.

I was like, so humans are still intelligent? Like, there are some humans who are still intelligent, who are still seeking modes of technology and advancement. They're trying to regain. They're fighting to survive but they're trying to regain their power in a discreet way.

But apes in 300 years I think it's 300 years in the future have not really evolved. Not at all. Even though some of them

have been sprung from Caesar and Coba and these apes that were advancing like over the course of 10 or 20 years in the original trilogy so like why why is that does evolution not work in the same way after they've gotten the shot that caesar's mom or dad got at the beginning of the first film maybe they all haven't gotten the shot yet you know it's like but aren't they also supposed to be teaching each other like this is how societies form right and this is how evolution works well maybe it hasn't gotten there yet and maybe also the fact that the

tribes of apes have different abilities and then also different political beliefs and structures you know is to van's point about how the you know the native tribe that is close to the land is always like the wholesome one so maybe they aren't maybe they aren't as evolved yet but it's trying to teach us that there's different meanings of the word evolved. By the time Mark Wahlberg... Was this a pocket science corner that just happened? Yeah, thank you so much. Sure, yeah. Tell us about evolution.

Tell Joe Rogan about it. By the time we... By the time Mark Wahlberg got there, they full on had human slaves. Right. You know what I mean? Like, it was... They had a whole...

They built a society. They built a society they built a society of intelligence and then at the end they got the goddamn Abraham Lincoln that's fire that movie is

that movie is terrible but the final minute I was like wow same thing as this movie I was like fuck yes ape Lincoln

that's elite the power and like sometimes the flaw of these movies is that at some point for all of them once you've gotten the premise and like sometimes the flaw of these movies is that at some point for all of them once you've gotten the premise and the big ideas for a while they're just like all like roman in the wilderness fighting each other and then you can skip to the last five minutes so for example

i i did text sean doing my reaction i was like do i have to finish the tim burton one like i i like really can't um and i no, but then we still could have this moment here on the pod where we talk about Abe Lincoln. Right, but then I fast forwarded to the last five minutes and I was just like, whoa!

And then I kept going. So that was such a wondrous moment in the theater because the only Planet of the Apes movie I had ever seen before then was the Charlton Heston one. Doji, yeah.

And it's such, like, everybody knows about that. You're watching it with your parents and they're like, watch, watch, watch this. Watch this. Top five ending top five ending yeah yeah right they blew it up yeah all right and so i knew they weren't gonna do that yeah so i actually i'm in the movie and i'm like what are they gonna do like how are they gonna do this like what how are they gonna do it and they actually

managed to make me have an oh shit moment. I was like, oh my God. It's really good. It's really, really good. It's preceded by two hours of dreck. I did none of it. It is one of the biggest misses that I can remember. It was such a big deal. Everyone was going apeshit.

We were. We were so fired up. We could not wait. And the movie just, I was like god damn this sucks I assume this is true for you I know it's not really true for you but to that moment Tim Burton

is on the biggest heater like in movie history he's like in the Billy Wilder like Ilya Kazan zone of like

15 years of making movies that I like consecutively and then he makes that movie it doesn't succeed. It gets crucified by critics. And he basically never makes another good movie ever again.

Until, and this is why I'm just like, protect your heart. I know. Do you know about this? Sean is just like the number one hype man

for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. That's not true. Because he went to CinemaCon in Las Vegas. Oh, you saw it? No, I just, I didn't. I saw an extended clip.

How could it be bad? It looked really good. I don't know what to say. It's impossible that the movie could be bad. But like, Sean is like on the ground in Vegas being like, I'm hearing Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. It's the movie of the fall to me and Chris. And we're just like, what is happening?

I should be texting this shit to you because you'll give me sincere hype back. So it's, I can't remember, I remember. Then it came back and he was like, the most important thing that happened at CinemaCon was Beetlejuice,

Beetlejuice. And I was like, no, it was the Joker 2 trailer, but continue. So Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, it can't fail.

It won't be bad. I'm calling it right now. Okay. It's impossible for the movie to be bad. I was very fired up because it was like all practical effects.

It was like not CGI effects. But we just talked at great length about the expectations for Planet of the Apes and how excited. You are right. You are right. And I just

and I say this with love and protecting yourselves. You know, let's just I'll be destroyed. Okay. If it's bad. Yeah.

Just because But we've seen so many legacy sequels that stink. Like it's possible. It is. But I've seen so many legacy sequels that stink. Like it's possible. It is. But I also, the legacy sequel has, it's like always a heat check to me. I don't really, when your guy takes a heat check shot, you go, had to try it. Mm-hmm.

Had to try it. Yep. So when you decide. I say that all the time. When a heat check shot. When you pull up. Yeah. So when you come back years later, there have been some bad ones.

I'm like, they had to go back to the well at some point. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. I just, I think that the fact that Michael Keaton has had such a career resurgence in the last, what is it? 10? Since Birdman. Since Birdman. I think it's perfect right now. I love Michael Keaton so much.

So I'm happy for him. He was so excited in Vegas he was like I just want you to know that these people here with me these are the real people he was like a Trump rally he was like I can't believe how proud I am to be a part of this franchise what was the Batman movie he was in recently where he was just like spaghetti against the the wall. He was having a fun time. He was doing great. Well, that was a fan favorite movie of 2023. Oh, yeah. That's one of my worst takes.

I like that you came out for it, though. You know, you were like, you can't hurt me. I was too deep in, man. Yeah. Have you pulled yourself out? I was, at this point,

I've been deprogrammed a little bit. Really? Yeah. Charles got to you. No, not Charles. Charles, I have to make sure that i play an adequate foil for charles yeah or else it'll be fire don't pull the curtain back too

much you know yeah but but um i wanted to love the flash so much guys i really remember and it it it colored i had to like that was a look in the mirror moment for me so I was like are you a real person because I wanted to love the movie so much and there were parts of the movie that I actually did like but the fly sucks

I'm sorry yeah they put their babies in a microwave so that was tough for me that wasn't great but Michael Keaton is the best thing about the movie

I hate that I hate that so much we're just like what the fuck but Michael Keaton you know had the I'm going for it energy when no one else was really going for it. So maybe it'll be great.

Well, he was in a different movie. Sure. He was in a movie that in its inception was supposed to be a lot more about him than it actually was. So he was actually in a different. He was in his movie. He was in his movie relaunching his Batman. Was Ben Affleck also in The Flash as Batman? No, it's Clooney who shows up at the end.

Clooney shows up at the end. No, isn't Ben Affleck in the Batmobile? Doesn't he like show up in the window? Oh, yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. He does. Don't tell me where Ben Affleck is and doesn't show up, okay?

Yeah, he does. All right. At the beginning, it's Ben Affleck, it's Batfleck that's doing his thing. Okay, well, there was that. Great Batman, by the way. Great Batman? He was a good Batman,

ill-served by the material, in my opinion. Yeah. And the suit. Would like to have seen him in Matt Reeves' Batman, personally. I'm not the biggest Matt Reeves Batman fan in the world. Well, we'll come back to that. Yeah, we will. Because we're going to talk about Matt Reeves.

So, Apes. This movie did really well. Yeah. $55 million after... Actually, when you came in here today, you were like, everybody's freaking out about Fall Guy. Yeah. Fall Guy seems to have set panic in Hollywood.

Is Ryan Gosling a star? Why aren't some of her movies hitting? And then this movie just like did well. Not amazingly well. Yeah. I saw the, do you see the tickets sold list of Apes movies in the last 10 years? There was like some data that was like 15,000 for the Tim Burton movies. And then it was like 9,000 and then 7,000, 6,000.

This one is the lowest number of tickets sold, but it actually made a good bit of money because premium screens we've been talking about, tickets cost more now. There clearly will be another movie. It also did very well internationally. I think the movie did much better than people thought it was going to do.

It more or less hit what it was projected to do, which I think is a win. I mean, because the project, think is a win i mean because the predict the shout out to to bellany because the projections are one thing right and that's like data that you guys have that we have and we know but i think sometimes people there's a flop feeling yeah there's a feeling of a movie's presence right like fall guy i think to a lot of people just felt like a hit it felt like a hit and then when it doesn't hit people go oh when they get a little uncomfortable planet of the apes felt like it was going to be there was going to be a tepid response to it

i don't know that people out there thought that the response to the apes franchise was going to be as robust as it was because when i send it around to people they go oh and they go 55 domestic 126 oh people like these movies that's good and to be honest with you the movies have been much more successful than they've been given cultural credit for like it's a very very healthy franchise it's sturdy it's a very, very healthy franchise. It's sturdy. It's very reliable. Right, right. So I think a lot of people have been,

even though it tracked about where it was supposed to debut, I think a lot of people have been pleasantly surprised that so many people are talking about it and liked it and would see it.

Yeah. It's not as showy as something like The Fall Guy has to be because you're, like, you're trying to get people in the theaters on the basis of Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt and there's more riding on it yeah and it's this is like well there are people who like to see the Apes movies and they will come to the Apes movies and then they came to the Apes movies and it's kind of like wow sometimes business

works it does underscore something that we talk about a lot, too, that I feel like bleeds into the Midnight Boys a lot as well, which is that eventizing is the most important thing. And a new Apes movie, the first Apes movie in seven years is a thing. It is a very reliable brand. You know, one thing that is actually a good benefit of streaming, and I'm very critical of streaming, as you guys know, is that all ten or all nine Apes movies are on Hulu. So if you want to go

back to war for the planet of the apes before going to see this just to be like who was caesar again it's very easy to do that if you want to get as i've seen a lot of people like on letterboxd are just like watching every apes movie just like me in the last five weeks just to be like oh yeah this actually is a really interesting artifact of the last 70 years of movies that the fact that something like this has held on while other things have struggled. There hasn't been a Star Wars movie in a long time now. I guess there's going to be the Filoni movie.

The idea that there's another Apes movie before another Star Wars movie is fascinating. But it is what you guys are saying. There's a group of people that are like, I like this. These movies don't cost that much. It's not that complicated to make one. There's definitely going to be at least a few more after the success of this one, which I find interesting. Wes Ball probably not going to be the director of the next one because he's directing the Zelda movie.

X, did you know that? Yeah, I did know that. I knew that the Zelda movie was coming. I didn't know he was directing it. Who's going to be Zelda? Timothy Chalamet? Did you? Isn't Timothy Chalamet?

No, he's not in Link. What are you? Who's connected to that? I don't think that they have cast anyone yet. They have not cast Zelda? Cast him as Link. What is the legend of Zelda? Like, what is her legend?

Why not? Tell me what it is. That's a good question. Go ahead. Tell me the legend. It's a very good question. What is this? Did you play the game?

Did you ever play the original game? I think I must have once or twice, but not long enough to know the story. As I do, I know what's up with Mario and Luigi, right? Did you play the OG Legend of Zelda? I've played every game that came out. Well, then tell me. I don't really know. I remember very vividly.

This is crucial information if we're going to make a movie about it. You just, I remember they had, they had the gold one. And you had to have like, add some shit to your Nintendo for it. I loved the gold cartridge. I had the gold. That was so, so cool. Okay. Once again.

There's a Triforce. How are we turning this into a movie? There's a Triforce. Okay. Yeah. Once again, there's a triforce. There's a triforce. Okay. It's like a, it's like a golden triangle. Okay. Link has got to go get this thing and he's got to defeat Ganon. Who's a horrible monster.

So it's Lord has imprisoned. It's very Lord of the Rings. Zelda. Okay. Very Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's, I mean, it's got nothing to do with the story. It's just about like Link moving around this world, shooting swords at dudes. you're making a narrative feature film about it. Well, there's obviously been,

I mean, I was playing it in like 1987. I was playing it literally living on GSRI and Baton Rouge. We're talking years and years. Literally 40 years ago was Zelda Nintendo? it was Nintendo so this is the big Nintendo movie after Super Mario Brothers

but they there have been 20 Zelda games maybe more 30 Zelda games it's a huge franchise in video games Ocarina of Time I think is the most legendary one like a not a witch but like a like what are her supernatural is she a supernatural is she like the it's about link i know but then who is zelda the princess oh okay and so the princess

protects the thing she's being held hostage and the thing. But not in every game, though. I'm just looking for some... I'm on Zelda wiki. I laughed at the question, but honestly, I've played all of these games and I really couldn't articulate... Amanda is here for a reason.

She's just asking the important questions. It's a Princess Peach situation? Nah, Princess Peach has more agency than Zelda. She does. That's tough. Yeah, she does.

Do you think that this will be a Zelda empowerment movie? It probably will be. I have to read you this. I don't understand why this has been phrased this way, but this is very important. So first of all, the first paragraph on the Zelda wiki describing Princess Zelda is physical appearance. That's the first thing that you hear about.

Here's how she's described. Princess Zelda is slender and light-skinned. Okay. Wow. See? Nobody else is asking questions and this is what happens.

Hurry. What the fuck is going on? That's an interesting way to open this. What? So she's Zendaya. I guess. Why is she like me?

Why is she? What? Now, that would be some casting. That would be casting. Get them back together. Yeah. Timmy and Zendaya? Yeah.

But we have to give her agency this time. Josh O'Connor as Link? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds good. I'm into it. Okay. I'm really glad we got here.

Did you like Challengers? Yeah, I did. Okay, good. I did. Challengers did it for me. Okay great it's like that guy no i'll say about the apes is is that your star wars point got my mind turning around the apes it's a it's low risk it's low it's a low risk franchise like if you make an apes movie and people love it they love it if people don't dig it as much it's like all right cool franchises like star wars is so consequential that they get their asses fucking kicked when the fans don't like something that they did right so like with

apes and it's probably a lesson for star wars fans with apes you'll probably get a lot more movies more consistently because they can make movies that people kind of like. Your whole life isn't riding. Your whole summer isn't riding on whether or not you dug the latest Apes movie. You can just go there, eat some popcorn, have a good time, be like, hey, that was really cool. Or I was a little lukewarm on that and you can leave. The Star Wars people are skittish because like whatever they do we are on their asses. I think the reason for that and I think you're

100% right is because Star Wars is like this generational talisman that parents hand down to their kids

you know that has been stretched. Now the franchises themselves are pretty similar in age 68 versus 77 for the first Star Wars but Planet of the

apes feels so old and star wars has been so omnipresent in our lives in the 21st century in a way that the apes movies just weren't you know like 13 years went between the burton one or 10 years between the burton one and the rupert wyatt one and the characters don't ever stay the same like you get sure a lot of cornelius and Zira in the 70s ones, but for the most part, it's not about Luke Skywalker or Han Solo or Leia and pulling the thread of those stories along. Like, they change them out. They don't have, like, this Star Wars money-making burden, right?

Like, they can exchange, like, or interchange characters because, like, they don't need to make sure that the Rey doll can, like, stay on the shelves. Yeah. That it corresponds to the something. Which is, like, you know, and I think, like, Star Wars has been loaded with all of that because it was so successful. And they were like, hey, look at all this money that we can make off of it. Whereas Apes, it is, it's a little more modest to Van's point. It's like, okay, well, we'll make this.

And, like, maybe we can make, like, okay, well, we'll make this and maybe we can make a healthy return, but it's not going to be the thing that Bob Iger is yelling about to shareholders on a call or whatever, which unfortunately is a major part of how these decisions are made. It is, but that makes it fascinating that it keeps coming back too, because it's mostly coming back just to be a movie. There isn't like a world of franchise merchandising around the Apes movie in the same way. No Apes World at Disney or at Universal Studios. No rides, no Happy Meals.

It's almost diet IP. Yeah. In a way. But you'd never think that it would be thriving. Yeah, but that makes it sound lesser. No, no, no, no. Well, it is. When I say lesser, I mean, when we think of IP now, we think of like, I don't know, like

Titan type of IP. Because like really, even Fall Guys kind of died IP. It is. It is. Yeah. It's like, can you buy like a Godzilla themed nail polish? Yeah, exactly. I don't know.

Can you? I don't know, but you can buy pretty much every other movie at this point has like an SC or like OPI nail tie-in. We should do a nail polish episode. Top five nail polishes. Yeah, I'd love to. We could also get manicures on. I'm in.

Yeah, okay, great. IP rankings would be interesting. I mean, Star Wars has got to be a big swing. I thought, well, but there's quality versus strength. Because that's really what I was saying at the top. Where for me, there's a very reliable group of movies. Like James Bond, certain eras of James Bond are very reliable

but James Bond is so up and down it's so actor dependent director dependent filmmaker dependent and almost like era dependent

like if you're in the 80s and it's trying to compete with Star Wars it's like James Bond's not built to do that you know what I mean it's much more well suited

to the 60s or as an antidote to the rise of franchise entertainment in the 2010s where it's like, this actually feels way more real up against Star Wars and Marvel and all that other stuff.

Anyway, the Apes ones are interesting though because like, they actually do have ideas. All of the movies, with the exception of the Burton movie, has some kind of idea circling inside

of it that i dare say is like bold i really think that the idea of like uh culture confusion and the way that power operates and violent societies versus peaceful societies you know i re-watched escape from the planet of the apes last night which is the third one that some people think is the second best apes movie and i like that one. That one was really cool. And it's all set in, you know, contemporary America and the apes

at the end of the second film, like three of the apes escape in time travel to our society. Yeah. And the whole movie is about celebrity. And it's about like

what happens when an alien effectively like comes to the planet, speaks our language, can communicate with us and how we commodify them, objectify them. Like, you know,

it's a low budget science fiction movie from the 70s. Right. And a lot of it is like just set in a courtroom, you know. Yeah, it's like a fish

out of water comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's got philosophy in it. Totally. It's very engaging. And then again, like the last three minutes are so fucked up.

Yeah. And I mean, do you remember? So I haven't seen that movie. But what I have seen though and then again like the last three minutes are so fucked up yeah and I mean do you remember so I haven't seen that movie but what I have seen though are clips of just the apes dropping knowledge

yeah like you know what I mean so like on humanity so like there's they're talking and they're giving lessons

to humans and stuff yeah so that's sort of what I feel like that's kind of what I was getting at when I was like why aren't the apes more advanced than these Kingdom movies? Because we've seen

that at a future date, they do become more advanced. Yeah, but it's like, it's like 5,000 AD or something. Is that what it is? Is it that far? I think it, it might not be that far,

but it is like several thousand years that both Charlton Heston and then like Cornelius and Zira are jumping back and forth through. And they really do make a point of like an escape of the planet of the apes. that both Charlton Heston and then like Cornelius and Zira are, are jumping back and forth through. And they, and they really do make a point of like an escape of planet of the apes. It's like the seventies.

Right. You know? Right. So, you know, I think there's something interesting that we're kind of just hitting on by just talking about the movie and talking around it is, I don't want to know what you guys think about this.

Um, because you're, you guys is show is, uh, uh it's how can i put it you guys are very movie focused and explain that everybody's like of course it's movie focused well when we're on the midnight boys and talking we're normally talking about the whole thing so we'll talk about what was made and then we'll go okay what does this mean for the MCU? Or what does this mean for Star Wars? What does this mean for this? But this gets into the actual film, which is interesting here because this movie was a little bit probably of a letdown for a lot of people.

Or it wasn't a slam dunk. indicative of the health of not just the IP, but of the franchise itself as a table setter, as an hors d'oeuvre for like a new Apes franchise? Yeah, the next 10 years. Does it work for you guys in that sense? I am curious what happens next, to Sean's point, because in the last five minutes, they do that thing, they marvelize it or you know and like that's kind of unfair to all the other apes movies that creates new continuity yeah yeah yeah that manage in the last five minutes to really hook you and I do think that

there is something interesting that they have done here which is like they've sort of flipped it where you start with the apes and then an ape society, and then you're going to investigate human society next. Yeah. And so how does that work with our understandings of, like, these two societies and how they've interacted in all the other movies? And, like, can you switch the alliances? And, like, are we supposed to be rooting for the humans and like you know that like that's that's interesting and i'm curious on like a storytelling level whether they can pull that off um you know and whether that works as like a larger iteration of the franchise to your point about like the next episode i like you know do i tend to be more about, like, the next episode. I, like, you know, do...

I tend to be more interested in, like, the stories with the humans as opposed to the apes. So in that sense, sure. I don't know whether, though, like, they'll be able to pull it off.

Yeah. So I'm like, it's cool that they tried. And I, you know, I'm always curious to see. If someone tries, I'll see it. But I don't know whether this kind of feels like

the prequel that normally gets made after all the movies that they made first that we're all kind of like, I don't really know whether I needed like the prequel to this.

Yeah, I think it's well put. Carlitos way rise to power. Yeah, and then even though whenever they do that, we're like,

why don't they just make things in order? You know? So, we can never be happy, but I don't know whether they've set up enough juice

for like, the main series. Does that make sense? An inherent flaw for me, for your question, is that I'm just going to see

every franchise movie no matter what. So, I can't earnestly be like, yeah, now I'm definitely going to check every franchise movie no matter what. So I can't earnestly be like, yeah, now I'm definitely going to check out this new film, which is just frankly not good service

for the listeners of this show because I'm just going to see it. I'm going to be 72 years old not making a movie podcast. I'm going to be like, new Apes movie? I'm going to go check that out. Checking it out.

Even if it sucks. Even if I've been told by my best friend that it sucks, I'm still going to go see it. Right. So even though I think they did kind of ace the last five minutes of the movie it wouldn't affect I think what it is affecting again this is very personal to me is in 2.7 years when the next apes movie comes out I'm not gonna be as excited to have this conversation we're having about this

franchise and these kinds of movies and what it has done and then you know force us to rank all 10 movies it's just not going to seem as fresh yeah but that's just the product of where we are in this and if we were doing the show in 2014 we might have felt the same way when dawn of the planet of the apes came out that right there is where we agree with the movie that's probably the thing i it did enough yeah for me to be like oh okay now i want to see this world now i want to get into this world i do think if i get a very human apes movie the next one yeah i don't care about them down there trying to move around old satellites i'm over it okay they blew up the they they created the virus the pilot got on the plane you had your chance yeah fucked it up this is a than Thanos was right take, yeah. It's over. Yeah.

Let's see what the apes got. Yeah. Okay? They've had 300 years. They haven't done much. They haven't done anything. Okay? They taught some eagles how to bring the fish.

They haven't done anything. Okay? So I'm not at all saying the apes, they haven't put together a constitution. There's no, like, they haven't done anything a constitution there's no like they haven't they haven't done anything they got no ape plays they got no ape spots I feel like Proximus' election was very rigged

it probably was like big Arizona energy going on in the Proximus election you don't know about the arts community in that society

listen they had a very like you know the birds there was going to be a whole coming of age ceremony you think they have good podcasts what a podcast their pods could be good could be good the one guy that they had

that was into the arts yeah they made this motherfucker live underground or whatever they had one guy that was trying to refine the asses or rock right yeah that's the best idea in the movie though is the manipulation of knowledge for Proximus versus Raka. That's the best. That's the thing in the movie that works the most. That's why when they took Raka away and then they were like,

oh, Proximus, he's going to take human knowledge and manipulate it to lead the apes. I thought that was clever. I wish that there was a moment where you could almost like see them having that debate. They don't let us have that.

So two things. One, I didn't think that what was in the vault was going to be weapons. I didn't think that was going to be that i thought it was going to be something a little rogan pods well well could be because remember book of eli yeah the whole time you don't know what it is that he wants and he wants a bible because he's like if i can give them scripture then i can do the whole thing i thought it was

going to be something a little bit more profound than that now she said she wanted something that was very important it ended up being a SATCOM key, which I don't even, that was, I don't even know how well that works. But I will say this. So MacGuffin-y, so like, what is the hidden key? The key, and then you give it to them, and now they can talk and they couldn't do it before.

There's something to be said about how fast the apes will evolve now, though, because they have Rocker's Library. So he goes down there and he's like, look, let me tell you about Caesar. They have something that sort of coalesce around an idea of a time and a great leader. And they have all of this stuff. I don't know if he taught him how to read. Maybe don't kill Raka.

Maybe don't kill Raka. They did it because then they have to read the children's books. And they're like, these are symbols. And it's just like, it's not Curious George because clearly they weren't licensing that. It's Curious George, but George is a human. No, in the children's book they're reading. It's about like, it's about like a zoo. And about animals and apes like being imprisoned. And they're like totally horrified, but they're just reading the pictures um but it's not curious george again because they didn't want to pay the

money did you like the callback to the doll that made the same noise as the doll from the original apes movie did you clock that i did sure yeah you know you know you're not really fond of an easter egg you don't like easter eggs well most of them aren't easter to me. You know, it's like most of the time it's just sailing right on by. Yeah, they're just eggs. They just got yolk in them. Or it's just. Just a splat. Or it's just details.

And I love detail. You know, that makes the rich tapestry of cinema and life. Certainly. Many people are saying that. But like, I don't really love doing a lot of homework. Oh, man. I watch. I know.

You do a ton of homework. I watch videos on there and it's like, hey, 33 Easter eggs. And the ladies want. I watch all of them. Yeah. Oh, my God. How did I miss that? What?

What is going? How did I miss that? Jesus. It's right there on the shelf. Like, I watch them all. Yeah. And I just have to. I spend my internet time other ways.

So. Do you think of yourself as often smarter than the filmmakers um cause I think I think Van expresses like a wonder

at what they're able to accomplish the fact that she hesitated I know but this is the thing Amanda is my favorite the fact that she the fact that she hesitated.

She was like, probably. No. I mean, sometimes, sure. Sometimes I'm just like, guys, you didn't have this. But listen, that's true of any human endeavor. Sometimes the people just don't got it. Most of the time, I feel that I am smarter than their what they imagine

the audience to be which is not saying that I'm smarter than the audience itself audience itself I just feel like I'm being talked down to and

this comes up a lot in a lot of franchise movies yeah for sure well yeah you have a lot of humility about this but I also by the way in a good way

where you're sort of like I'm willing to more you're more willing to accept intention. You know, when you say like somebody puts an Easter egg in a movie, you're more willing to be excited about what it could mean. You know what that's about? It's about, and we, we joke about this on the Midnight Boys, but it's true. It's about being a long suffering nerd. And what I mean by that is that, like, so you grew up in the 80s. I was born in 1980, right? So you grew up in the 80s

and you find something that you love and then you got to work for it. Yeah. Like, I mean, you have to work for it. So Star Wars drops, all the Star Wars movies had come out basically before, 83 was the last one

and I didn't obviously see that one. I'm getting into Star Wars 87, 88, getting into the whole thing and then there's nothing else out there so i'm going to get books i'm looking at comic books i'm traveling to the comic store to get all my comics i'm connecting with other people then the internet comes around you have to find a tribe you have to work for this so nobody was giving it to you so now when a director or a filmmaker does something and they put a little thing that you would recognize from all the work that you had to do from all of the searching that you had to do something that only you're gonna know something that's gonna call back to that you just go thanks and and you just go wow that's oh i really appreciate that i like it too and when that happens for me

in a film i feel the same way but i was not you know yeah it's like my list of Easter eggs is a very different, like my list of Easter eggs is like the body cream that Zendaya uses in Challengers in the scene against Mike. You know, and they do like an insert shot of this like very fancy, it's Augustinus Bader. Like, you know, it's really funny. I'm only saying the brands, they will send it to her. No, because for a certain group of people who are probably not listening to this podcast because they're doing other things, like, that is that. That's like, oh, hey. Oh, they know that. That's your Easter egg.

Same also when they use, like, the Cincinnati Applebee's in that movie, which is, like, a longtime, like, tennis institution. And, like, everyone, all the players do go there before the Cincinnati Open. So I see it. I just, most of the time, I, like, I just don do go there before the Cincinnati Open. So I see it. I just, most of the time, I like, I just don't know what anyone's talking about.

You know, I don't know the legend of Zelda. Yeah. You know what? That was not like such a deep cut. It's like one of the best selling video games in the 1980s. Well,

but I don't know the legend. You know, that's what I'm saying. We're still learning every day. I don't know that much about the legend. Me neither. I play every game,

but you're asking questions I don't know how to answer. But that's, this is actually really relevant to this era of franchise entertainment because there's two ways of experiencing this stuff. There is, in the 80s, most people that were experiencing it were just like, I went to the movies or I watched my TV show. I had a great time and that was it. For me, I was very much like you.

I have vivid memories. I was eight minutes away from a Tower Records Barnes & Noble. So after school, if I didn't have sports, I would walk down and I would spend an hour or more wandering around Tower looking at every record. And then I would go over to Barnes & Noble. And I remember this so vividly. I'm like 10 years old, 11 years old. But just sitting on the floor, because there are no seats at Barnes & Noble, and looking at like the Star Wars encyclopedia books. Do you remember these that were published?

That were just like the characters, the planets, the events. All the languages. Yeah. All the races and like the creatures.

And you know, I'm 10 years old, 11 years old. And I was like, where did this all come from? Like who wrote this? Like is this, this stuff was in the movie

for 10 seconds. Yeah. And then they built this entire world out of it. Now, now contemporarily, we just pulled up the Zelda wiki is, this stuff was in the movie for 10 seconds. Yeah. And then they built this entire world out of it. Now, now, contemporarily, we just pulled up

the Zelda wiki. Like, this stuff has all been canonized, library sized. It doesn't work the same way, but in the fucking bookstore, and this book was like $38,

so I couldn't buy it. So I just had to read the whole book in the bookstore on the ground. Yeah, sure. And I, that wasn't me.

I was in the home of a police officer so we were not stealing books that's you you stole it by read by sitting and reading yeah i think i was creating community within the bookstore it's not a library okay i was told this maybe it's not they tell they kick you out yeah see this is the difference it's a race thing oh yeah it's not a library yeah go to like hey this is not a library you can't just read that book I'm like

that's so interesting I never got that you really think that's because I was a white kid I have no fucking clue yeah maybe they were just cool at my Barnes and Noble

or maybe it's because I did it like four or five times a week yeah that's true the more you're there they were like this is not a library I was like

this seems like a library to me it's a lot of fucking books. Get out of here. Get out! So I left. But anyway, you stole it. Go ahead. I never stole it.

I read it calmly, quietly. And I did never buy it. So I guess they did kind of steal the information, the knowledge. Much like Proximus is stealing the knowledge from William H. Macy in the film Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. Wow. Amanda actually, speaking of homework, she did the homework. She went back and she watched a lot of Olive did you make it through Olive

mhm all 10 mhm I did okay Jesus I had seen certainly

the first one obviously all three of the recent trilogy yep you'd never seen Burton you didn't go see that no I didn't go see it

Burton was my 2001 birthday movie oh that's really tough for you um i had seen clips of like mark walberg looking confused you know that's every movie which is every movie yeah um so i guess i'd seen five four or five out of the nine about half oh okay and i had maybe seen snippets of like the other original five. You know, there are like images and moments because these are very foundational. So you see things and you're like, oh, yeah, I remember that. First one was a very big deal for me.

Sure, yeah. And like all of movies? Yeah. Well, personally, because very, very big Rod Serling fan. And so when I discovered Twilight Zone as a teenager, just went and consumed everything that he did. It's so odd.

It's almost like sometimes we had the same life. We're very similar with our taste. When I started watching the Twilight Zone, I became obsessed with Rod Serling. Just the prolific amount that he could write, the concepts, the way he would construct story in short form, his ability to write something that's equally terrifying, beautiful, thought-provoking, how almost every episode said

something about the human condition. I'm talking about something about birth, something about death, something about your place in the world. I just became obsessed with him, like obsessed with his life, wondering why there hasn't been like a definitive biopic done on him.

It's a good question. It's a really good, I mean, he was a complicated guy, but not like a bad person. They're not like these like terrible things that happened to him. He was just consumed with his work. Like super consumed like these like terrible things that happen to him. He was just consumed with his work.

Like super consumed. Yeah. He lived inside of his writing. One of the reasons I went to Ithaca College is because he graduated from Ithaca College. I just,

I thought he was still is one of one, totally unto himself. And if you look at like his more serious and dramatic writing that happened in like Playhouse 90

on live television in the 50s. Which was before, which predated. Before Twilight Zone. Just incredible dramatic fusion of like

what was happening in contemporary literature at the time, some genre storytelling, and then he, you know, evolves into becoming this kind of like

showrunner king before such a thing existed. He's kind of the first showrunner king. He literally was on the TV show that he created every week, which is fascinating

unto itself. Anyway, he wrote a script adapting this Pierre Boulet novel. They kind of like junked the script. They kind of rewrote the whole thing, except the world that was built, more or less, the framework of the world and the ending. And that's what's retained. And of course, the ending is what everybody remembers from the movie. And Rod Serling has written literally 300 cool endings, which most people can't write one. Right. And he is the grandmaster of doing that. And it is different, materially different from the novel and the way that the novel ends. And then that comes to define, as you were saying, like every movie now, you're kind of like, I should at least see what the last five minutes look like.

Right, right. It sets up an interesting world and, like, questions and ideas. And then everyone, like, fights for a while. And then there is some spectacular twist ending. So were there any big revelations watching the 70s movies that you were like, oh, this is, these are better than I thought, worse than I thought? No, they were better. They were definitely better than I thought. And, you know, they each did have, like, they were better. They were definitely better than I thought. And, you know,

they each did have like a discreet idea, even if like the production value is like people walking around in masks, which is fine. But somehow the fact that like with distance, I'm not that concerned about the production value. I don't like expect it to be, you to be like the West Ball 2024 version. You muted your eyes, as I say. Yeah, but then you actually really can focus in on, okay, oh, so this one is about nuclear war and this one is about celebrity and

this one is about racial hierarchies and this one is about prison. And they're also much shorter. They're all 90 minutes.'re all 90 minutes God bless them like those I haven't seen like I saw the first one

and then I come back and Tim Burton yeah I think you I think they're all worth checking out they do get clearly as opposed to

contemporary Hollywood they get lower in budget the further along you go and you can really tell by the time you get to Battle for the Planet of the Apes you're like that's the fifth one. You're like, this was made very cheaply.

And it's more or less like a hand-to-hand combat war movie. Yeah. I did not watch the entirety of this movie. I was like, okay, I get it. To me, the Burton one is the worst one. Yes. Battle is the second worst one. I think that's probably true.

I think Beneath the Planet of the apes is like they try it's got such a bleak ending that i have to give it like sure super bonus points but but really until the ending it is like rewarmed planet of the apes it has that very common second installment in a franchise thing where it's like let's's just run it back. Yes. You know, let's do it again. Beneath the Planet of Apes is the second movie. The first 45 minutes of the movie is, as Amanda said, a complete rehash of the previous story with Charlton Heston, where he's literally going, he crash lands on the planet.

He's looking for the Charlton Heston character. He's a part of a rescue mission. He immediately gets captured by the apes. He stands trial. Everything that happens in the first film. Right. And at the 45-minute mark, he, along with some rebel apes

who are helping him, basically discover that there's an underground society where humans, kind of mutant humans live. Okay. And they worship an atomic bomb. And, and...

Like a real bomb. It's like underground, like in Queens or something. Yes. Because they're living underground in the old subway. There's like subway signs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the final 45 minutes of the movie is really weird.

Where they're like surrounded by these mutant humans. And they have telepathic powers. Yeah, they can. And there's a lot going on with them. They've been somehow distorted by the exposure to the nuclear energy. The radiation has gotten to them. But, and then the movie ends

very darkly. Right. I, for its boldness, I think it's cool. It's not as fun, it's, because you're right,

it's like, it's a real slog through the first half of it. And it is like, it's like three-fourths baked, right? It's not totally, it's,

half-baked is unfair, but it takes a while for it to get to its new idea. Do you think it's like three-fourths baked, right? It's not totally, half-baked is unfair, but it takes a while for it to get to its new idea. Do you think it's better or worse than the James Franco movie? So I rewatched this one, and like a tough thing, among all the other things

that we apparently overlooked about James Franco, is the fact that like that, that man cannot act like. Not a good actor. You don't like him. Well, he was very good as like the pretty funny guy in all the stoner movies.

But like this man is trying to solve all Alzheimer's. And like respectfully, like that is, that is one of the reasons that we, instead of Alzheimer's got like a human ending like pandemic you know it's because it was james franco so i don't buy him as a scientist that's pretty tough i think the setup of the story in that movie is really good it's really smart the idea and i mean you know not to like and Hathaway it, but like it is 10 years before like the actual, like an actual pandemic that.

Right. You know, watching it now is interesting in that way. And like kind of frustrating because they do basically yada yada the pandemic. They do. Like the very end of. You're talking about like, yeah. Yeah. Because Rise of the Planet of the Apes, which is that movie, is like, it has the amazing Golden Gate Bridge, which is that movie is like it has the amazing Golden Gate Bridge

which is another really good part of it the Golden Gate Bridge scene very similar to Beneath where it's like the first 45 minutes you're like okay

this is like a movie set in a laboratory and we're not really getting to know the characters beyond John Lithgow and James Franco like Frida Pinto is just like a zero

in that movie like the most non-written character ever it was just like a they just threw in it okay people you were beautiful from Slumdog yeah it's just not developed at all you know the thing that works about that movie was like the most non-written character ever. It was just like a, they just threw in it. Okay, people know her from Slumdog. You were beautiful from Slumdog. Yeah, it's just not developed at all.

The thing that works about that movie to me, if you get into James Franco and Caesar, if you just get into that, then the movie works. I agree. Yeah, and that part of it does work, even though like him being like, we need the gene, you know? You're just like, no. Like they have him wearing glasses at some point. It gene, you know, it's like, no. Yeah.

Like they haven't worn glasses at some point. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. But all the setup is,

is really good. So I, despite the Franco Ness of it, it's like pretty interesting. Would you put it at seven? Where are you writing this in the. Yeah. So planet of the apes from 2001,

the burn remake to me is the worst. That's the last one. That's the worst. I can't be completely involved because I haven't seen three of them yeah but we'll hold your hand through the also rise of the planet of the apes is like the first circus performance yeah yeah there is a lot of good stuff there so i would put it before so i would do beneath the planet of the apes at eight and Rise of the Planet of the Apes at 7. I agree. I would really like to see the movie between Rise of the Planet of the Apes and what's the next one?

Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. Which is like basically Contagion, but. It's interesting that you say that though, because there is a 70s movie that is kind of like that. So like Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, which is a movie that is set basically in the immediate aftermath of Escape, which is the movie that is about celebrity. Right. Oh, it's like it's 91 is when they set it. It features a character named Caesar.

Yeah, Caesar. Yes, which is clearly the inspiration for the Caesar. I knew that. I knew that Caesar was in the old ones. And when he came back, I thought for some reason, maybe it was the same Caesar. It's not not but it feels like it is at times did they did they get into this on the the parentage websites like no who caesar is no so here's what happens at the end of

conquest of the planet of the apes which is the apes zero and cornelius this is the end of escape yeah yeah this is like the literally like the last three minutes after they've traveled back in time like been treated like celebrities but then there's someone who doesn't trust the fact that they're talking intelligent you know sure um they're both killed and you think that their baby is killed but in fact they had switched

they'd done a baby swap baby swap like you know like you do like you do when they were at the circus yeah because they had to go

you know they had to go they'd parade them around and humiliate them so their baby with by the way this movie has basically been a comedy for the first 75 minutes yeah yeah yeah oh They had to go, they parade them around and humiliate them. And so their baby with... By the way, this movie has basically been a comedy for the first 75 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh. And then there's a violent act and a baby swap. Right. They kill them both. They die. They kill them both. And they kill a baby ape. And you think that like the lineage of intelligent apes...

Is gone. Is gone. But it turns out because of the baby swap that their baby is still at the circus. And that's Caesar. And that's Caesar. Wow. So I think Escape and Conquest are probably in six and five for me. I don't know how you feel about Dawn and War.

I know you're not as into those as I am. Yeah. And I'm really, I like Dawn more than War. Yeah. I'm not surprised here. Because War has a little bit of Kingdom of the Planet Apes. Like, not problem, but it's just, it's serving you a different thing, which is just. War is an action movie. Yeah, it's an action movie within a bunch of minutes.

It's very Apocalypse Now, though. Like, it's just very grave and intense and violent. And very, it's an ugly type of feeling movie. And like, you know, it looks very good. But again, like I am more interested in the conceits of the movies than just like watching them battle it out. But that's a preference thing.

I completely forgot to slot Kingdom. Where does Kingdom go? That's the question. I love Kingdom. You did. You loved it more than any of the Reeves or Rupert Wyatt movies? So, real quick, just so I know. So, it's Rise is Franco.

Yes. Then it's Dawn. Those titles should be flipped based on how the stories are told. Right. Yes. Rise, Dawn, and then Kingdom is… And War 4. War 4. Then Kingdom. Oh, then Kingdom is what And War 4. War 4.

Then Kingdom. Oh, then Kingdom is what we just did. Yeah. War is what I was saying. I was saying I loved... Right. No, I loved War for the Planet of the Apes. I loved Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

I would probably put... What do you think about what I'm doing here? Kingdom is fourth, for sure. So of the contemporary apes movies, let me reorient myself. Of the contemporary apes movies... I completely agree. Kingdom is fourth, for sure. So of the contemporary Apes movies, let me reorient myself. Of the contemporary Apes movies, I completely agree. Kingdom is fourth.

To me, I like Rise more than you guys do. Sean just put Kingdom behind Rise. Okay. And I agree with that. This is the first five, and then we can discuss the next five. Despite James Franco, I like Rise more than the most recent one.

And I am affected by the Caesar-human relationships. And he's trying to save his dad. Yeah, and the whole time. There's great moments. The moment when the neighbor, when John Lithgow gets in the car. And then the neighbor comes out. And he starts wagging his finger in his face. And Caesar breaks out.

And then he chases the neighbor. There's just great. That's like an intimate portrayal of this world too. It's not just like a big nasty war movie. Right, and honestly, that movie was so much better

than I thought it was going to be. That's what it is. All of these movies are like that. Yeah, I went to that movie thinking, okay, I'll check this out. And I was like, oh, the movie was so much better

than I thought it was going to be. And then when they did the thing at the end, I was like, wait a minute. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I was like, wait a minute. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was like, oh, so we're moving forward. Like we're, we're, we're.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we're going to the planet of the apes is the thing. I thought Caesar and them were going to get smart and then just take over the world. That's what I thought was going to happen. But nah, because there's not no nuclear bomb. So I was, that ending actually surprised me. I was like, oh, shit.

And then it was credits and the whole nine. Kind of reminded me of Zack's movie where during the credits, we thought they got away, but then the zombies killed them all. Dawn of the Dead? Yeah. You pointed at me and said Zack, and I was like, did my husband make a movie? Are you on a first name basis with Zack Snyder?

No. Did you see Rebel Moon Part basis with Zack Snyder? No. Did you see Rebel Moon Part 2? Yes. The Scargiver? The Scargiver. I saw it. What'd you think?

It was fucking... It was an abor... It was fucking... Okay. It's bad. It wasn't good. The movie is fucking terrible. I haven't watched it.

I haven't logged it. Nor have I. Have you seen The Idea of You? No. What's that? It's the Anne Hathaway movie on Amazon. I saw that. did you watch it i

saw the fucking billboard for it well okay that's not watching the movie i know i would love to hear your thoughts i feel like by seeing the billboard i saw the whole movie it's very white lady and silver lake coded yeah oh so i like i genuinely would you liked it i had i think i liked it more he liked it more but that's just because what What is it about? Is it a May-December situation? Yeah. Yes. If the young woman... I'm sorry, an older woman.

She's 40. She turns 40 in the movie. A deeply old woman. Starts having a relationship with basically Harry Styles from One Direction. Good? I mean, fun to watch. You and Kalika should watch it and then report back. I'll check it out. Yeah. I? I mean, fun to watch. Like, you and Kalika should watch it and then report back.

I'll check it out. Yeah. I enjoyed it. Okay, here's the 10 through 6. Okay, cool. Planet of the Apes, 2001 Burton. Battle for the Planet of the Apes from 1973, which is the least of the 70s movies.

Beneath the Planet of the Apes, the very crazy but very flawed direct sequel to the original. Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, the film we just talked about in this episode. Rise of the Planet of the Apes. Be very crazy, but very flawed direct sequel to the original. Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, the film we just talked about in this episode. Rise of the Planet of the Apes at six.

This is the James Franco reintroduction to the Apes franchise. So now we've got left on the board. The OG Planet of the Apes 68. Escape from the Planet of the Apes, which is the third film in the franchise, 1971.

Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, the fourth film, also 1971. Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, the first Matt Reeves movie. And War for the Planet of the Apes, the fourth film, also 1971. Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, the first Matt Reeves movie. And War for the Planet of the Apes, the second Matt Reeves movie. So Conquest is the prison riot? Correct. Okay. I mean, in my personal preference, War of the Planet of the Apes would be next, but I know that that's not acceptable. I said I said I know

that that is not acceptable. Do you like Conquest more than Escape? I like Escape more. Okay, me too. I think Escape is a really cool thing that more franchises

should try which is like a hard genre pivot inside the franchise where they're like this is a comedy now. Let me ask a bigger question. Actually, I love it

when they do that too. Logan kind of did that. It did. That's a great example. Yeah. Let me ask a bigger question. Is it accepted that the Matt Reeves movies as a whole are better than the movies

from the 70s? I think it would be healthy to stack them like Reeves than 70s, Reeves than 70s? I mean, can you just... I think it would be healthy to stack them like Reeves, then 70s, Reeves, then 70s, or some version of that

because they're just, their intentions are totally different. Okay. The tones are totally different. The Reeves movies are so serious. Like,

they're so self-serious, but he is so gifted as a craftsperson that I think it justifies that tonal choice, which is way far afield from what all these movies were up until this point. These were like B-movie exploitation movies, you know?

Like 70s Logan's Run type of shit. Very much in that vein. And these movies are so critical in the history of movies because they elevated R.I.P. by the way, Roger Corman, what Roger Corman's doing in the 50s where he's like, I'm gonna give you 10 grand, make the way, Roger Corman. What Roger Corman's doing in the 50s, where he's like, I'm going to give you 10 grand, make a movie about a giant ant. These movies are like a slight step

up from that in budget, but they're like also Rod Serling wrote it. And I think one of the reasons why we are where we are in our culture, much to Amanda Chagrin at times, but much to the delight of the Midnight Boys is because of movies like the original Planet of the Apes. So I see those 70s movies as very important. I see some of what's bad about modern franchise culture in the Matt Reeves movies. I see what you mean.

But I still love those movies. Sorry if I'm like philosophizing too much about this, but I've thought about it a lot. That's fine. I'm just trying to, I'm task oriented right now. Okay, so.

So do you want to put Conquest at five? I believe Conquest at five. Okay. I will allow War at four. Great. Is that a deal? That's a deal.

Are you comfortable with War at four? I am. Okay. Do you prefer Dawn of the Planet of the Apes to War of the Planet of the Apes? To me, it literally goes backwards in which those movies came out. That's your ranking?

For those four movies. So you prefer... Actually, no, I put Dawn at one. Okay, that's great. Yeah, I put Dawn at one, but I have Rise at two. I probably have a connection to that movie that's like more...

I have Rise at two. I love Rise of the Planet of the Apes. I really, really, really love the movie. Rise just has too much stuff like Juan Franco being a little bit miscast to Frida Pinto just like sitting in a car with Franco

driving around doing stuff. No, I understand the situation. The whole David Oyelowo stuff where like... Him being like the evil lab guy and all of that stuff. Right, right. Doing all the presentation.

But I mean, when they do the presentation and then the ape crashes through the PowerPoint, his deck is really... That part's cool. That's good. Yeah.

Rupert Wyatt like kind of never to be heard from again. Yeah. Where's he at? He made one movie after this for Focus that bombed. Oh, that's the

Will Smith joint? No, no. No, not the movie Focus the studio Focus. Oh, okay. But he also you know, he also directed the remake of The Gambler

starring Mark Wahlberg. Is that the one where he does a lot of philosophizing? Yeah. He speaks about Shakespeare of The Gambler starring Mark Wahlberg. Is that the one where he does a lot of philosophizing? Yeah, he speaks about Shakespeare

and explains to Brie Larson how the universe works. It's an important movie. Okay, so that leaves us with... Is Escape 3 and Dawn 2? I think so, yeah.

Yeah, okay. So Escape is the 71 movie that is about celebrity, which I think you should check out. I'd like to know what you think of that movie. Yeah, I'm going to watch them. I think you'll enjoy it.

And then I think Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is two, which is the Jason Clarke, Kerry Russell movie. That's a great movie. It's really about this like, basically, can we get along? Yeah. Is the idea of that movie. That's a movie that glues the world together, by the way. Really interesting movie.

Conceptually, it's the movie where Caesar becomes what Caesaresar is where you understand how the apes view each other where the humans are at this point that's the movie that kind of glues it together it's kind of rise is almost a prequel yeah it reminded me of what you were saying where it's like the prequel that you make after you've made movies i would really like to see the like the prequel that you make after you've made movies. I would really like to see the actual pandemic movie in the middle. Rise is a prequel. Oh, you want to see Ape Contagion. Right. Yeah.

Humans dying as apes slowly build their society. Slowly build their society. Station Eleven, Apes. Yes. Okay. That would be good. The original, anything you want to share before we wrap up about the original? The original is very good.

It's very good. There are 20 minutes in there good it's very good there are 20 minutes in there where it's just like charlton heston going from one place to another very similar to this new film and the woman not speaking nova not talking like that was indicative of movies at that time it is yeah you know charlton heston naked for most of this we're mostly naked for most of this movie and like his grizzled handsome way. We just, we got to get back there. You know? You know,

we were talking about men earlier and Kevin Costner. He was a man. He was a man. But you know, it's like, he's not, he's not bulking.

You know? There's no, there's no steroids. He's just like a dude. Yeah. And, and he, he looks a little old,

but also he looks really handsome. No protein shakes. No machinery that he's working on. John Heston, John Wayne, Kirk Douglas. Yeah. Like, man.

Yeah. How are their politics? Nice. You know, it's a movie that obviously has a genius conceit and one of the best endings ever.

Yeah. And like I said, I think really authentically influenced where movies would go for 50 years. So you got to give it credit. It is just a formative, like ridiculously important science fiction movie.

You just, it's, yeah, you have to see it. That's why I was thrilled that Tim Burton was going to take a shot. But even at that time, I was kind of like, I don't know, man. I was like, I don't know. But I was so into it. Ape Lincoln?

Ape Lincoln was dope. The apes come over. You've seen it. Yeah. Tim Burton? Yeah. No, I watched the end again. The apes come over.

They all like, it's the ape capital police. 5-0. Yeah. It's 5-0. I'm like, oh, what? What's going on? It's really great. That's how they should have ended Civil War.

That's funny. Okay, our official Planet of the Apes movie rankings. Number one, Planet of the Apes, the Tim Burton version. Sorry, number 10, Planet of the Apes, 2001. Number nine, Battle for the Planet of the Apes. Number eight, Beneath the Planet of the Apes. Number seven, Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. Number six, Rise of the planet of the apes number eight beneath the planet of the apes number seven kingdom of the planet of the apes number six rise of the planet of the apes number five conquest of the planet of the apes number four war for the planet of the apes number three

escape from the planet of the apes number two dawn of the planet of the apes number one planet of the apes i've never seen another movie that has the words of the twice in its title other than an apes movie can you think of another movie as of the twice there might be one i couldn't think of anything i i cannot either i was just thinking of the title of kingdom of the planet of the apes that's a weird title of the apes yeah kind of strange in its construction. At least it's not doing like the colon hyphen. That's true. Semi-colon, you know, thing that we're doing everywhere else in movies right now. Apes colon. Don of them.

I'll tell you what. I used to like comparing. So it was Avengers, Age of Ultron. Remember that? Because everybody was doing that. The colon thing was a big deal. And then what's her name? Drop that movie where she never got any older.

Remember that joint? The Age of Adaline? Yeah. I used to like. Blake Lively? Yeah. Yeah. And Harrison Ford?

Age movies. Did you ever see Age of Adaline? Of course. Yeah, of course. Did you like it? Not really. I like movies like that. You mean like Benjamin Button?

I love those types of I'm old throughout the ages. Oh, do you remember? Hold on before we go. Yeah. Do you remember Tuck Everlasting? I read that book when I was in middle school. Come on. I don't think I ever saw the movie.

Oh, Tuck Everlasting was crazy. Who wrote Tuck Everlasting? I'm still doing it now. Tuck Everlasting. The people when they got the, they keep drinking from the fountain. Yeah, pretty good book. And they, oh, I didn't even know it was a book. I just saw it because what's his name was in the movie.

Natalie Babbitt. That's the author. You know what jacked Tuck Everlasting so bad? What? Twilight. Oh, yeah. Twilight and the family living in the house together is so Tuck Everlasting. I'm sure people made that comp when the Twilight books were coming out.

Then at the end of Tuck Everlasting starts off and they're in the old days and at the end he's riding on like a motorcycle. Yeah. I'm going to watch Tuck Everlasting. I don't, you saw the movie? I don't think I did because as I was just Googling it, it's Alexis Bledel from Gilmore Girls. Yeah, but the guy that's in the movie, he was a heartthrob of the time. Jonathan Jackson? Oh, wow. Jonathan Jackson. He was a heartthrob of the time. Jonathan Jackson? Oh, wow.

Jonathan Jackson. Yeah, he was a heartthrob of the time. This is quite a cast. William Hurt's in it, right? William Hurt, Sissy Spacek, Ben Kingsley,

Amy Irving. Yeah, Tuck Everlast. Victor Garber. They thought it was going to be a thing. I'm like, oh, they got William Hurt in this.

I checked it out and it was, you know, a lot less serious than I expected it to be. Yeah. Tuck Everlast. I'm going to be but that's okay yeah it took everything I'm gonna watch this movie Van Lathan

co-host of the Midnight Boys Higher Learning you can hear him on the rewatchables what other pods you on? I pop up everywhere support me did you

did you well we eagerly await our invite to the Midnight Boys yeah Amanda is neither Midnight nor a boy but she could show up on that show. Is there

another franchise or any movie coming out in the next six months that you want to be back here for? Several. Well, actually, you know what? I got to be honest with you. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Okay. You can come back, Sean, up because Chris

and I haven't been supportive. They've been mocking me for weeks. I'm not going to tell a story now, but I'll tell you guys a story about my experience with the screenwriter of Beetlejuice when we do the podcast. Okay, wow. That's an incredible tease. We'll see you in three months? Four months. Four months.

Okay, tough. Amanda Dobbins, thank you. Thank you to Jack Sanders. Thank you to Corey McConnell for their crack work this morning on the video team. Thanks to Bobby Wagner, our producer,

for this episode of this podcast and all episodes. Please stay tuned. Later this week on The Big Picture, a very special draft. Me, Amanda, and Chris Ryan will be drafting the best action set pieces

in movie history. Oh. Yeah. Any suggestions? Yeah. So suggestions? Yeah. So, a couple of different suggestions. Mission Impossible.

Which one? The first one. The CIA? May or may not be on my long list. The CIA when he comes down on the thing? Yeah, no, that's iconic. Sure, yeah.

I was, I love Yeah, absolutely. that. I mean, I would bring some some others up but like Mel Mel let me down

why Mel why you thinking Lethal Weapon or Mad Max I'm thinking Braveheart wow oh okay interesting

I'm thinking Braveheart maybe we'll see if Chris only drafts Mel Gibson movies that would be so great could happen we'll see you later this week.