The Big Picture - ‘Maestro’: Holy Sh*t. Plus, the Top 10 Performances of 2023.

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

Sean and Amanda share their top 10 performances of the movie year, focusing on films that did not get as much attention in our top-five lists (1:00). Then, they dive deep into one of the biggest swings of the year, from one of the most ambitious directors we have working right now: Bradley Cooper’s ‘Maestro’ (33:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about maestro. Today, we will be diving deep into Bradley Cooper's second film as director, a biopic of the great American composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein. It is now available to stream on the Netflix streaming service. Cooper, Amanda, is one of our favorite contemporary Hollywood figures. His directorial debut, Star is Born, right at the dead center, I think, of our taste between you and I.

Maestro is a movie of bold performances performances though, and capital A acting. So before we discuss the movie, we thought we would start with our favorite performances of 2023. Do you feel ready to talk about Maestro today? Incredibly ready. I've been waiting for four months. Do you feel ready to give your best performances of the year? Yeah, I do. So this is, is this the first in order? We're recording a lot. I'm sorry. I know you hate the meta stuff. It's Monday morning. I'm coming in. I'm warming up.

This is the first of three top tens. Right, exactly. So we are, we're doing, can I, can I? Yeah, sure. We're doing performances. We're doing scenes and we're doing underrated movies of the year, which is really fun. Great exercise. I've had a lot of fun putting those together, but since we're doing all of those and we've

already done our top fives, I've been trying to be a bit strategic about the list. I know you have as well. So I thought it would be a good kind of, you know, opening to say I am excited about my performances. There are a lot of performances that I liked that are not on this list, either because you took them or because I'm trying to kind of spread out the love across these four lists. Okay. I didn't pick any performances from the movies on my top five. Oh, interesting. Did I?

I don't think you did. I didn't. Wow. Yeah. Probably intentional. Right. I think what we're trying to do is spread the love exactly in the last couple of weeks of the year we're trying but like that means that um you know lily gladstone killers of the flower moon is not on my list which is like in in one way moronic because that's one of the

great performances of the year i do also think that she will i mean she'll certainly get a best picture i mean a best actress nomination and and might well win so i also kind of strayed away from people who I feel are likely Oscar nominees. I did too with one exception. I had a couple, like maybe it could happen, but it probably won't, which is sad. So for example, well, Bradley Cooper from Maestro is not on my list. And I think that's because he'll probably get nominated.

I'm really excited to talk about the performance with you in the second half. As you said, it's like, it's quite memorable, if nothing else. So, you know, my list is like, it's a little quirky. Yeah, mine is too. But I like it. Well, I think we're trying to give shout outs to people who we won't be talking about for the next three months. Exactly. Or at least talk about the work that they've done in a slightly

different way. Yeah. Do you want to start or should I start? Why don't you start? Okay. I, I've cheated. I have two ties. But the, both of the ties are thematically wended together. The first one is powerhouse essential supporting work. In one case we we have rage. And in one case, we have warm heartedness. The first is Glenn Howerton and BlackBerry. Probably the funniest performance of the year, certainly the most yelling in a performance of the year. If people have not seen BlackBerry, Howerton, who's best known for his work on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, plays the president of the company that effectively created the BlackBerry. And he is not a technologist by any means. He is really more of a suit. And he is a maniacal striver and desperate to build and

to succeed at all costs. And also he loves hockey. And his love for hockey leads him down an incredible rabbit hole of pursuit. Glenn Howerton is someone who I've been compared to in the past because we look a little bit alike. And Dennis from It's Always Sunny has a similar maniacal rage that creeps out every time. I want you to know that was not for me, that comparison. But now that you say it, I see it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I like Glenn Howerton a lot. I hope I don't get compared to the character he plays in Blackberry because he's, he's a demon. Um, the flip side of this performance is David Krumholz and Oppenheimer who does not appear to be getting a supporting actor campaign for him. Despite the fact that

I think the people who really appreciate Oppenheimer look at his role. And maybe this is a reflection of the lack of depth of some of the female parts in the film. But a lot of the work that a female character would typically get to do, he gets to do. He is the agent of empathy

in Oppenheimer. Right, but unfortunately, he is also in a movie where Robert Downey Jr. and Matt Damon are supporting characters. Yes, so he's been boxed out, unfortunately.

David Krumholz, one of the great character actors, usually very reliable, comic voice. In this movie, I think very moving, very powerful. A person who consistently gets Boxed out, unfortunately. David Krumholz, one of the great character actors, usually very reliable comic voice. In this movie, I think very moving, very powerful. Person who consistently gets Oppenheimer back on track when he is wavering. So we need supporting actors.

You know, we need character actors. We need people to fill in the gaps on these movies. What a segue to my number five, which is Rosamund Pike in Salt Burn. You know, it takes a special talent and also self-knowledge to be like an actively good thing in a movie that doesn't know what is going on. And maybe there's something to the fact

that like Rosamund Pike seems to be the only person who knows what she's doing in Saltburn really and like understands what's going on and what note to hit. I would argue Carrie Mulligan as well. Yeah, but that's like

a weirder character. Very small part, yeah. Incredibly funny. A part a character part and a supporting part deserving of an actress who I feel doesn't always get

the roles that she should. Memorable. And, again, just the only person keeping the train on the tracks to the extent that it stays on the tracks. She's brilliant in this movie. So, Saltpurn will be streaming on December 22nd on Amazon. So, you think that's going to be the one? Every year, there is one movie that hits streaming that is internet available between Christmas and New Year's.

And you all get up to no good, you know? Like, Santa has already come and you're not behaving. And you just, you log on. Despite me telling you every year, don't log on. Well, what do you think that represents? Like what does the logging on mean? That everyone is bored of talking to their parents and has, and we haven't like channeled the energy to like the agreed upon topics for the week or whatever.

It's kind of, it's a free for all. And so nervous energy finds its way. So there's a little bit of a front lash coming on the Saltburn haters, I think. I've heard from a handful of friends. I've heard it from a handful of friends who are filmmakers that Saltburn rocks and that it is quote good. It's not good, but it has a lot of mojo how about that i agree with

that it has a tremendous amount of mojo and i did not have a bad time even though i still i don't know what it's about is that your nickname for barry keoghan's parts sure okay no spoiler uh salt burn i'll watch it again. I've seen it twice. Second time, I was like, yeah, no. I've only seen it once. Okay. I'll definitely watch scenes from it. Okay.

So let's go to my number four, which is a movie that we never really dedicated a long conversation to. Was that a mistake, do you think? I don't know because part of the joy of the movie is it does what it wants to do and what it's interested in. And a lot of that is the performance. This is a great performance. We will be talking about Passengers again this week. But it communicates its idea very effectively.

And then we move on with our lives, which is like a beautiful slice of filmmaking. More people should do that. Do what you want to do. Do it incredibly well. And we don't have to have 40,000 Reddit posts about it. Perhaps fitting. The performance is Franz Rogowski in Passages, and he is doing what he wants to do to chaotic effect.

He plays a character who is entrenched in a love affair with a man played by ben wishaw one night while they're out at a club franz ragowski is a filmmaker one night while they're out at a club he meets a young woman played by adelex archopoulos they lock eyes sparks fly a affair begins things get intense they get deeper and more entrenched over time. And then Franz Rogowski does what a lot of people do in the world, which is that they make a mess out of things. I've not quite seen this level of emotional mess that I recall seeing a lot in New York when I was living there in my 20s. You know, there is a certain, sometimes it's a woman, but it's more often a guy who will be like, I'm in the middle of like three different relationships

and I just quit my job. Just kidding. I'm going back to my job on Monday. And oh, my bike got stolen. Like, can I borrow 20 bucks? And you know that like person who's kind of going in every direction and you're like, they're a disaster. But also there is like a charisma and something that draws you to them and draws everyone to them.

And so you can't quite cut them out of your life. Exactly. Even though, I mean, it's just like the classic, like toxic, not quite boyfriend in your 20s, you know, because you never quite get them to be the boyfriend. Right. You'll never lock it down. But like, they're not mean. They're just selfish and almost don't understand how they're being selfish. You know, there is a kind of ignorant. Anyway, Franz Zargowski, terrific performer. You know, you may have seen a great number of incredible European films over the last few years. Ira Sachs, longtime independent filmmaker.

Someone who's made a lot of movies I've liked in the last few years. Especially Love is Strange, one of my favorite movies of the 2010s. This is like a... I think it's a breakout in a lot of ways for Rogowski, who is not often giving performances in English. And I feel like a lot of people have kind of discovered his greatness. I encourage them to go back and look at his previous work. who is not often giving performances in English. And I feel like a lot of people have kind of discovered his greatness. I encourage them to go back and look at his previous work. I feel like Hollywood is about

to wrap its arms around him. And so in a way, you might want to prepare yourself for that. But he's just a wonderful kind of archetype that is very rarely at the center of movies because there's something kind of inherently unlikable about that. There's something kind of inherently like,

can you just stop fucking people over? Especially Adele Xarchopoulos, who has really matured as a performer and I think is like incredibly empathetic in this movie and is just desperate

to kind of have a sincere relationship despite the protests of her parents and a number of other characters in the movie. So I really like passages a lot

and I especially love Vergauski's chaos. Great, great pick. I might have done this, but don't worry. We've got more episodes this week. Yeah, we do. Okay, my number four is Sterling K. Brown in American Fiction, and also his recent appearance on Hot Ones.

I haven't seen that. It's really, really good. He is just going for it. He does Shakespeare at one point. He sings. He's just, I i mean it's wonderful uh we are going to talk more about american fiction um this week as more people get a chance to see it uh this is cord jefferson's adaptation of percival everett's novel and i i really like american fiction and i want to step on our episode

too much to say except like i had heard about the more satire current events aspects of it which is i think how they're leaning into the marketing yeah and it is also a lovely family dramedy and sterling k brown as he often does really like brings all that emotionality together and i i was very affected by the the family story in this movie I thought it was lovely Sterling K Brown has the trickiest part it could go wrong anybody else's hands I think he does it beautifully again as he always does and um it seems like he probably won't land a supporting actor nomination which is a shame um Jeffrey Wright is also who's the lead of American Fiction is also wonderful in American Fiction but I think he will get a best actor nomination, which is a shame. Jeffrey Wright is also, who's the lead of American Fiction, is also wonderful in American Fiction,

but I think he will get a Best Actor nomination, which is why I'm focusing my attention elsewhere. Yeah, Sterling K. Brown is somebody who I often find myself recommending for parts in recasting Couch on the Rewatchables, you know, where I'm like, if you were going to do a modern version, and he still has not really emerged as a leading man which I find very strange he's almost 50 years old he was he's a

huge tv star on this is us um which is one of the bigger shows the last 10 years but he has like kind of all the tools and it's interesting that he is breaking out I think in this way in this movie in part because he is supporting an actor who many people for years were like, why has this guy never been the lead of a movie in Jeffrey Wright? And now he's doing it and getting the laurels that he deserves for it. But I agree. Actually, his character and Franz Rogowski's character are very similar, the space that they occupy in their stories. So they're nicely matched at number four. Number three is also a cheat but uh it's it's

a natural pick these are my scream queens of the year um mia goth a year will not go by without me recommending a mia goth performance this year it comes from the film infinity pool brandon cronenberg's most recent exercise in uh miasmic chaos um really really really really really funny performance from iagoth who is just this that like the restrictor plate is just off like it is just full noz like she's going crazy in this movie and i laughed a lot the flip side of that performance is sophie wilde a person whose name has not been uttered very much and even in relation to the success of her film uh which has talked Me, which is probably the horror summer breakout movie of the year, an A24 movie.

I talked to the Philippo brothers who directed her in this movie. She was always attached. She was always a star of this movie. The movie does kind of traffic in some of the tropes of typical horror, like the trauma trope, the loss of a parent, all these kind of obvious things.

But the movie is basically on her the entire time. And she's carrying a big burden. And she's not a very experienced actor. And these parts are pretty cliche historically. And she brings so much to the table, makes the movie very believable. And then what happens to her character at the end of the movie is also critical

to understanding the story. So I wanted to give her some love because I haven't seen her name mentioned very often. Sophie Wilde. Okay, what's number three for you? Rachel McAdams in Are You There, God, It's Me, Margaret, which is, might actually, I don't know. I don't think it's going to happen at the Academy Awards.

There's a push now. There's a push. It's been on a lot of critics' lists, both Are You There, God, It's Me, Margaret, which was a wonderful movie, and this particular performance. And, and you know people love to blog we among them so you love to blog i don't you consider this sometimes we're just blogging out loud you know i i do feel that way yeah so you know once a blogger always a blogger yeah well it's funny that we've been talking about

american fiction because i wanted to talk to court about that when he comes on the show too i'm like five years ago cord is out here blogging. Yeah. And now look at him. But he was, that was more like 10 years ago. And then like. Maybe. Yeah.

Ish. And he was always like a more accomplished blogger, you know? Than you? Yeah. I think it was more polished. Yeah. Yeah. Like, well.

Let's talk to Kord about okay okay i mean anyway i'm seeing him in two hours so i'll ask him cord were you or were you not more accomplished than amanda dobbins as a blogger i don't know cord but i like he was more accomplished i actually remember some of his like thoughtful blog he's a brilliant writer but you know i was just like like here's drake and sweaters you know that's fine um that's valuable too don't denigrate your art yeah that's like it's like everyone there was like a whole thing 10 years later where people were like hey did you know that like drake wears a lot of sweaters and i was like yeah i invented that like i literally like it's it's cool but anyway um rachel mcadams

are you there got it to be margaret shout out moms. You know what I'm saying? We're out here too. We're human beings. It goes both ways. You're trying to be a parent, but you're also the child of a parent. It's complicated. They try to put you in boxes. They try to make you do crafts for school. What's wrong with crafts?

I'm not good at crafts. That's not the kind of mom I am. It's not about being good. It's about participating, right? Yeah. That's crafts I'm not good at crafts that's not the kind of mom I am it's not about being good it's about participating right yeah that's what I'm learning

but they make her redo the stars also oh yeah that lady should be killed yeah she should be publicly executed the woman in that movie that's like the sort of mom stuff

yeah that I like I can't really be a part of can I give you a report from the home front from Eileen on two recent films

oh sure yeah so when Are You There Goddess Me Margaret came out I was from Eileen on two recent films? Oh, sure. Yeah. So when Are You There, God, It's Me, Margaret came out, I was like, Eileen, we've got the film for you. Yeah. It's arrived. Incredible story of young womanhood and also motherhood. Tremendous performances. Beautifully shot.

Beautifully written. She watched it. She was like, that was okay. Like, not just not enthusiastic at all, which is quite devastating for me. Okay. However, she watched the film Priscilla. Yeah. Which she thought was excellent. It is excellent. like not just not enthusiastic at all which is quite devastating for me okay um however she watched the film priscilla yeah which she thought was excellent it is excellent she wouldn't she says she wouldn't define herself as a uh sofia coppola person so there you have it i i told you

i felt that that was an evolution of the form kaylee spain is another person who is not on my list because priscilla was in my top five but that is one of the performances of the year pretty good one yeah okay my number two is again I don't want to step on our forthcoming

episode about this but it's Zac Efron and the Iron Claw really excited to talk to you about this this is one of my favorites of the year a film that

I was scared to see because it's a very tricky topic and if you care about professional wrestling know about professional wrestling you know it's a very thorny story that said it's a very tricky topic. And if you care about professional wrestling, know about professional wrestling, you know, it's a very thorny story. That said, it's a story that is made for a movie. Zac Efron, um, plays the critical role of Kevin Von Eric in the movie.

And he is just magnificent as the center. And I don't, I think that it was pretty clear that he was a good actor. He's obviously was a child actor and has a musical theater training and has an incredibly winning personality. He has a kind of live wire weirdness as an actor that I think has not served him well in some parts. Like in movies like Baywatch where he's like playing into his like Disney comic timing strengths there's something otherworldly and weird about him in the world of professional wrestling

he's a natural obviously his body is a huge part of the performance yeah I was gonna say Bob have you seen Ironclaw yet? not yet I'm seeing it tonight okay good

because I we might have to patch Craig Horlbeck in for just like him like a solid 20 minutes on the physicality of zach efron in particular but like and all the guys well but you know they were each responsible for their training regimens and so they i mean just like that's a good piece of knowledge for me to know going in. Jeremy Allen White is big mad about what Zac Efron was able to do to his body. Right. So it's...

Jeremy Allen White looks fucking awesome though. I just want to let you guys know though, I have signed a first look contract with Chris Ryan that if Craig and I talk about bulking, Chris has to be there too. So if you're willing to call Chris in, then I'm good. I'm good to do it. Chris will not be invited to the body performance episode of The Big Picture for obvious reasons. Chris is now eating three eggs for breakfast every day because Craig told him that his, well, an Instagram reel. And then Craig told him that his breakfast of like almond butter toast was poison.

And I quote poison. So now Chris pivoted to three eggs. Chris sent me and Craig a text yesterday asking if we had heard of someone named Daddy Wellness. Yeah. Also, don't forget the Greek yogurt text, which I made him send at 11.30 PM on a Saturday night after several drinks,

because I was so horrified by the three eggs situation. I was like, can you check with them about other sources of protein? We can get some Greek yogurt in there. I had that this morning. Yeah, Craig was like, I like kefir. I don't know about that. Anyway. We've skewed far from Zac Efron.

We will circle back to the Iron Claw and our various workout regiments next week on the show. Cycling. Just a quick. Any more thoughts on cycling? Just a quick couple of five minutes on cycling. I think we've got that fully covered. Okay, Amanda, number two. My number two is a little-known filmmaker from the Houston area by the name of Beyonce Knowles-Carter in the film Renaissance, a film by Beyonce. You know, from Zac Efron to Beyonce is a good segue just in terms of, I think we often under-discuss physicality and presence and what you can do on the camera, like on camera, besides talking and saying great lines or crying. And I think Beyonce is the performer of our generation, in my opinion.

You just don't look away from her. And I thought Renaissance obviously captured her dancing, which I think is singular, as do many people. That's not exactly a unique opinion. But, you know, in its filmmaking and the behind the scenes aspects of it, you get a lot of different looks at Beyonce as a public figure and her conception of herself as a public figure and what it means to be performing and the different ways that she's performing and the different roles that she's performing. And she just, she's made for it.

She's one of a kind. It was an absolutely thrilling experience to watch the movie. It's kind of a weird thing to say about Beyonce, but I feel like this movie was ignored. Yeah, I agree. I guess I'm not super surprised because it's a concert movie, which is not a hugely successful you know style of film

the heiress tour notwithstanding but three hours long it's very long it is certainly a movie for fans but it is incredibly well made

yeah and looks great and has that awesome performance from Beyonce that you're talking about I saw that the heiress tour I think hit Apple last week and I assume that Renaissance

will hit it very soon for rental, and I wonder if more people will be interested in checking it out. Even if you're not a huge Beyonce fan, I think there's a lot that recommends it. Even if you're just interested in the idea of celebrity or performance, like you're saying, I think there's a lot there. So it's a very, very good pick from you. My number one will be in the

awards conversation, but I think that this is one of the great performance years. This was on my list until you took it. We can share it. Sandra Holler in both Anatomy of a Fall and The Zone of Interest. We had a long conversation

about Anatomy of a Fall last week. We'll have a long conversation about The Zone of Interest in January. She is an actress that I think hit most people's radar in Tony Airdman five years ago. I think probably best known as a lighter comic dramedy actor

who has two of the most severe roles of the year. The first in Anatomy of a Fall as a writer who is accused of killing her husband and in the zone of interest as the wife of a, effectively the man who runs Auschwitz, you know, the sort of commanding officer, um, living in an estate right outside the walls of the concentration camp during world war two. And she is a, a, a brutal movie character, a brutal figure in history. Um, a, this is like a deeply unsparing and awful, not an awful performance, but a portrayal of an awful person.

And she has to do it in a, she's doing two characters that are complex and elicit like strong reactions in very different ways. The zone of interest performance is, the film is shot in many ways like a documentary there were many cameras on set at the time and you feel like she's just living inside of the world that is happening the perform the filmmaking style is very different from that but she doesn't it doesn't feel like a performance to me it feels like someone who has been observed anatomy of a fault is a capital a acting performance

it's a movie of speeches and of crying and all of these extravagant emotions. And The Zone of Interest is something very different. And the idea that one actor is capable of fitting into both kinds of films, I found to be the movie acting achievement of the year. Yeah. One thing that both performances have in common is that I think a lot of actors, as they approach a role for themselves, but also once they're seeking empathy with the character and they're seeking empathy from the audience, that's the connection that you're trying to create. And that is not what she does in either of these performances, which is amazing and daring, I think, because that's like we go to the movies to expect to, if not see ourselves, to connect in some way. And it's in very different ways. She is not asking for that. And so you're right. The performances as a result are bristling. But amazing.

Yeah. The Zone of Interest performance in particular, I think you hear that all the time. You hear like Jack Nichololson say, I love the Joker. Even though he murders hundreds in Gotham City, I have to find a way to empathize with my character. There's none of that going on here. And that's unusual. And so because of that, it's really extraordinary. Okay. Number one for you.

I cheated. But these are three performances that are all on the cusp of Oscar, what have you. And I hope they all get there but I don't think it's possible for them all to so we'll do it all here which is Andrew Scott, Claire Foy and Jamie Bell in All of Us Strangers which we'll talk about more and I don't want to spoil too much but they they play an unusual family and what they what the three actors create individually and like you know together in different permutations. And then ultimately together of what a family is, what we want from family, what we don't get from family.

What we do get from family is just incredibly moving and effective. And I wept openly, wept openly as discussed. This was the second saddest movie of the year behind Wonka. No, this was first. Wonka was second. This was first. And Wonka wasn't sad. Wonka moved me.

I was just talking about tears. It moved me right out of my chair. Tears shed. Into the parking lot, right out of the movie theater. All of Us Strangers was number one. And it made me weep. And I'm really excited to talk more about it and these are also like three actors who just rule individually you know and i hope

that huge fan of all three and i hope that this movie you know they get more love for for this movie because they're all three excellent i agree very exciting to see andrew scott leading a film and hopefully he will get a chance to do more of that. Okay. I picked two breakout performances. I feel like you're on the same page with me about at least one of these. At least Tia No More from Earth Mama. I feel like you cited when we talked about that movie.

I think this is her first performance in a movie, which is just remarkable. And then Dominic Sessa, of course, from The Holdovers. He's really the center of that movie and has never acted before on screen. Pretty amazing. And is incredible and holds his own with Dava and Joy Randolph and Paul Giamatti. So those are both great. I have one more that is technically breakthrough, which would be Amy Donald and Megan. Physical performance matters. I completely agree.

This is the... Incredible stuff. This is your Andy Serkis. This is the Gollum of 2023 for Amanda. So congratulations to you. Any honorable mentions you want to cite? I mentioned a lot of them, Kaylee Spaney and Priscilla. Hayley Atwell in Mission Impossible, Dead Reckoning Part 1 was absolutely delightful.

And it's hard to stand out amongst everything that is going on in that movie and standing toe-to-toe with Tom Cruise and also having to pretend like you're falling out of a train and also understand AI. But she did it. I rewatched it this week, and I offer you a quick take. The movie just needs to cut out the first 15 minutes. Yeah, with the submarine? Yeah. Yeah, that shit sucks. But unfortunately, that's also going to be part two.

I know. And you know that I don't like the underwater mission impossible sequences those are the least exciting oh i like those and i i know unless james cameron is shooting it it's like not good enough i'm sorry yeah i don't i know why he's done that right he's done that as an homage to crimson tie yeah october and obviously there's like open recognition of his love for those movies mcquarrie but i love them too if you cut that out if you cut out the desert sequence, the shootout, and you cut out the sort of like Postmates delivery, like this will be the new guy joining the team sequence,

and you cut right to the briefing sequence where they're explaining what the key is, they're explaining what the entity is, and we meet Carrie Elwes and Henry Cherney gets a chance to give his big speech. That scene is really great. It's amazing. And it just jet streams us into the story. And that scene also features them explaining everything that happened in the previous three scenes.

Cut it out. You get the movie down to 225. Maybe it even makes you question whether you need a part two. And it lets it be more standalone. Because you don't have to worry about the sub. I don't know. I think it would have been better. Takes a four-star movie to five stars.

Alas. Yeah. I think it would have been better. It takes a four-star movie to five stars. Alas. Yeah. I did love Dead Reckoning. It doesn't really solve the entity problem, though, and the muddy AI. I think we can thank Tom Cruise

for getting Joe Biden to recognize the threat of AI. And for that, the service has been achieved. Okay. Okay. Other honorable mentions. This movie's not out yet.

Jessica Chastain in memory. I mentioned it very briefly on the pod. Fucking amazing. One of those things where like she won an Oscar for like a big dopey biopic that is perfectly fine.

And something small like this that no one's going to see will go unrecognized. And it's like she legitimately is one of the best actors alive, but only gets to do it in stuff like this. Very sad.

Tao Yu and John Magaro in past lives are incredible. Incredible. Obviously, you've given a lot of love to Greta Lee throughout the years. It's all very deserving. Theo Yu and John McGarrow in past lives are incredible. Obviously you've given a lot of love to Greta Lee throughout the years. It's all very deserving.

The movie doesn't work without these two guys and the kind of the odd pairing that they represent and the non that is not driven by animosity

that is driven by a kind of energy that you very rarely see between two men in a kind of triangle with a woman. And I'm not talking about the kind of triangle we find in passages. Very different kind of triangle with a woman. And I'm not talking about the kind of triangle

we find in Passages. Very different kind of triangle. Yeah, true. And then Charles Melton in May, December. Yeah. Who, you know, the real failure of our conversation

about that movie was that we didn't get a chance to talk about the last 30 minutes of the movie where the movie becomes Charles Melton's and it becomes about his crisis and what happened to him

and the way that the movie kind of starts sitting on Melton's shoulders after Natalie Portman kind of drags it along for the first hour and a half. So wanted to give him some love too. I think the Academy will also be giving him some love. How much love is the question? Definitely a nomination. I mean, I don't know where RDJ is, you know? RDJ, where are you? Like, is he in the Bahamas or like where he is on the ballot? Is he a Bahamas guy? I imagine he has his own island.

I'm, you know. Right. One assumes he's got enough for a little spot of sink hits. I mean, he's got, you know, the whole Malibu spread with like his inflatable balloon homes that are sustainable. Has Chris told that story recently about how he had Steely Dan play his 50th birthday party? Yeah. It's pretty great. Chris didn't have Steely Dan.

RDJ did. And RDJ told Chris that. Whatever that was 10 years ago for Graylin. Okay, Maestro. Here we are. So you saw the film at Venice.

I did. I saw the film at the Academy Museum, the Ted Mann Theater, which is one of the great theaters in LA recently opened. So those were

ideal viewing circumstances for this big lavish biopic of really one of the signature figures of american art in the 20th century leonard bernstein we recently saw hailed as lydia tar's mentor in the film tar except not except she was he was not obviously he's someone who looms large in the kind of like lincoln center estate like moneyed intellectualized mainstream you know he's like he's like what the most famous person in that world and i think that there are a lot of people who don't actually know what it is that he accomplished and what it is that he represents and so i'm i'm fascinated by the the choice of this movie it had been long planned by steven spielberg um bradley cooper tells a story about steven spielberg observing him directing

a scene from a star is born and ste and Steven Spielberg approaching him immediately after directing that scene and coming up to him and saying, you're fucking directing Maestro. And that's like the origin story for this. That led to what Cooper describes as six years of development. He co-wrote the screenplay with Josh Singer, who wrote Spotlight, First Man, widely considered one of the great movie architects, screenplay-wise.

And got reconstituted his team from A Star is Born, Matthew Libetique, the incredible cinematographer, and grabbed Carey Mulligan to play Felicia Montalegra, who is Leonard Bernstein's wife. And the movie opens with this like really resounding, obvious, absurd, but kind of perfect quote. I thought this would be a great way to open our discussion of the movie. So the quote says, a work of art does not answer questions, it provokes them. And its essential meaning is in the tension between the contradictory answers. Now you and I just had a great conversation about

Anatomy of a Fall. And I thought that this quote applied beautifully to Anatomy of a Fall, a film of interpretation. Does Maestro live up to the quote that it opens with in your mind? Well, don't make me be harsh off the bat. Well, okay. If you want to do an hour of celebration then we can tear it apart well what what question is it provoking that i i what question i have some questions about the film and some of the choices made which by the way i think it's just like an like excellent it is so well crafted and beautiful and there are moments in it that are completely exhilarating have moved me to tears both times i watched it like in it that are completely exhilarating, have moved me to

tears both times I watched it, like, in Italy and also on my couch at, like, 9.30 last night. So, like, with the volume really low because my husband had already gone to bed. I did the same thing. Like, there is so much here that is, like, mes and fascinating and i'm really excited to talk about it but also like like what am i supposed to take away from it is is the is the main question so that it definitely provokes some questions i don't think that that is the question it hoped it would provoke i have essentially arrived at the same place as you which is to say oh this is what i wrote down.

Some movies are great to think. You see the movie and you cannot stop thinking about the movie and what the movie is trying to convey to you and what the artists are trying to say or what the person whose life is on screen represents. Other movies are great to feel the experience. Oftentimes when we say that,

we mean Mission Impossible. We mean a thrill ride. But there are also quote unquote prestige films or comedies or whatever that are just movies about feelings that are just about being excited about laughing about being having your breath taken away from you and they don't have a second or third layer this is definitely in my mind a movie to feel and not really a movie to we're gonna interrogate it unfortunately because this is a podcast it wants well i think it wants to be interrogated like i think that it has ideas it it has ideas but doesn't have meaning i think is the is the the complication now i don't want

to talk ourselves out of the movie but the second time i watched it i found myself talking myself out of it a little bit and i did too the first time and i like i you know and i was you hadn't seen it yet and i was texting you it's like it's it's so fascinating but why this movie is what it's about is just like a like a total mystery and you know we could armchair psychoanalyze for like 45 years and I like I will just say right now this is the Bradley Cooper has directed two films and they are both about megalomaniac musicians who can't live up to the women in their life like it that's just there that's that's just the text that's just the fact so I you know that's interesting to me. Would love to get into that a little bit more. But why is this movie, why is that his interpretation of Leonard Bernstein, one of the great musical figures of the 20th century, is still unresolved for me. So you framed the movie

in the outline as a character study rather than a typical cradle to grave story, which a lot of movies like this often start with young Lenny and, oh, the first time he heard a piano and, oh, he has an affinity for composition. And the film kind of dispenses with that. It has actually,

it resembles really more Steve Jobs in its kind of flashing through significant moments of his life to get across roughly 30, 40 years of his life and his time with Felicia. is structured this way? Is it because of the emphasis almost entirely on the relationship between him and Felicia? Or is there another reason why this is the decision he has made? Well, I think like some of the thesis of the movie is, I think, is that Leonard Bernstein's career and success is inextricable from this relationship that he was in.

Like, one was, like, fueling the other. If not fueling, then gave space for whatever. I mean, you know. I think that's a better way of saying it. In some ways, this is like a woman behind the great man story, which, sure. You know, I mean, we're all here every day, you know, doing our best. But it's like, that's not like- Is that how you see yourself on this show?

I just, it's like- And by great man, I mean Bobby, of course. My life is just like a series of being the woman behind a great man, you know, whether it's here, whether it's the home, whether it's at the playground, you know, whether it's here, whether it's the home, whether it's at the playground, you know, it's just, it's what I'm doing.

Those men are thriving. They, they sure are. Um, so I, so the, the movie is about this couple, you know,

and, and, and this marriage and how the... And the public and the private, really, and the Lenny character isolates that in an interview. And so I think that those are pretty reasonable boundaries just because of what it wants to investigate. Are we sure, though?

Okay, so here's my interpretation of that. Yeah. That feels like the spine of a screenplay and not the story of the movie. The movie is still Leonard Bernstein. I'm with you. Like, when the movie is singing, when it is flying. You're telling me, man. It is Bradley Cooper unleashing.

Going for it. Just going crazy. I mean, and that's sort of the thing. Like, it is a movie about, like, a singular, incredibly charismatic, like, great man. Yeah, a lightning bolt of a person. Someone you can't look away from, and I think that was true in real life and part of his success. Certainly, like, as, you know, Leonard Bernstein, like, the public figure in the Young People's Concerts and, like, as the ambassador of music for a generation. But also, in the context of the movie, you just don't want to look away from him. And ostensibly, the movie's, like, investigating that and that power and how people around him respond to it, but it can't quite escape just like the movie star,

like power of it. You don't want to look away from him. Right. You know? Right. You want more of him. Right. You know?

Which is, is that a feature or a bug? You know, because of the way that they've decided to tell this story. And did that decision hold the movie back from me being like, this is my favorite movie of the year?

I don't know. I mean, can we talk about the Felicia character? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. We're going to spoil the movie Maestro. Spoiler warning. It's on Netflix. I'm just going to put that out there for you.

You don't want to hear about Maestro. Yeah. Watch it at home and then listen. And I don't know if it's a spoiler to say that the presentation of the movie, starting with the marketing materials, have focused on Carey Mulligan as Felicia, the wife.

And let me ask you a question about that. Do you think that the title of the film is actually referring to her? Well, I don't know. First of all, it would be Maestra. So they need to get that right. Okay.

That would be a dead giveaway if they did that. Well, sure. Yeah. I feel like the movie wants to say that, but ultimately can't. Yeah, it can't. I mean, and that's the problem. Like that. I mean, that is the thing.

And I mean, I think Carey Mulligan is a great actress. And I'm like, why is this movie about this character? Like, and there are parts of the movie about this character that are incredibly affecting. And I think it is like a very good performance, even though the accent just is a lot. But sorry, I found it very distracting. distracting i liked it i wasn't bothered by it um i also don't know how felicia montalegra sure i'm sure that i'm sure that it was like studied and very very accurate very unusual um kind of history on that character you know born in costa rica her mother was from chile her father was uh an american jew like it's this

unusual stew right but there's also something about like a europe you know like the european chilean family that they like telegraph like in big bold letters like in the exposition in case anyone wants to get mad about carrie mulligan's casting i i caught it um it i i don't know whether it's the the writing i don't know whether it's the writing. I don't know whether it's the story. I don't know whether it's the performance. I don't know whether it's just like the Bradley Cooper performance is so big and that character is so big. But you're just like, why?

Why have you made this decision with so much available material to make it about this woman and then not really explore the character beyond her relationship to her husband. Does she... Is there... There is one scene that I can think of that she appears in... No, two scenes that she appears in

that do not feature Leonard Bernstein in the entire film. One is when she is later in the entire film one is when she is later in the film when she is um having lunch with uh leonard's sister played by sarah silverman and once when she is performing on a tv special and i think i think every other scene in the movie that features her he's in the scene And he gets plenty of scenes by himself or with other actors. Yeah. And that's,

I think that's pretty telling that this is actually really not a movie about her. It is, it wants to be because it wants to balance the story of someone who accomplishes a lot. And in some ways,

I think it wants to show how people who are ruthlessly striving for greatness, there are kind of casualties in the wake of that. And like a lot of Felicia's humanity is sacrificed for Bernstein to succeed over and over and over again. You know, he's just constantly being fed and celebrated

and he is constantly questioning whether what he's doing is good enough or has he achieved enough. And this is a very common refrain. And frankly, it feels very much like self-projection from a filmmaker, somebody who wants to achieve, who wants to be celebrated, but also has a crippling insecurity. This is Hollywood through and through.

He loves people. Right. He loves people so much. That's why he can't be alone. That's why he can't compose. Like that's such a brilliant little scene in the movie. I don't want to dismiss carrie mulligan because i think she's very good she's always very is there a movie where carrie mulligan gives a bad performance i don't think so um she is one of the more dependable quote-unquote

prestige actresses in hollywood and she has a couple of particularly standout scenes in the movie there's one scene where she and le get into a fight in the late 60s, early 70s on Thanksgiving. Yeah. And this is kind of her showcase Oscar reel. And she's very good

in this sequence that is overwritten. It is. There are so many words. Yes. It's an astonishing scene because they are just, you know,

throwing the psychology textbook at each other. In one take, very memorably shot and staged. And then Snoopy shows up in the background because it's set on Thanksgiving Day at their immaculate apartment that has like a view of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. So it's, it's the Snoopy thing alone. Is a great joke. Oh it's, it's, the Snoopy thing alone after the fight. Oh no, it's great. It's so, Beautiful kicker.

It's so good and, and speaks to like the thoughtfulness and the detail and the way that they're staging this film. Like it's, it's really, really good. But when I rewatched it last night,

I was like, first of all, you guys are yelling over each other so much that I can't even like make out the words. I don't even know what you're arguing about. But but like the rest of the movie has not laid the groundwork for this level of like deep psychobabble that you're throwing at each other respectfully I I tend to agree um maybe before we get too far ahead of ourselves I'll give a kind of brief sure snapshot

of the structure of the movie um because the movie is really, like that moment, a movie of amazing scenes. And a lot of what we're kind of negging about the movie is the fact that it may not ultimately be a great movie, but it has so many great scenes. And you start thinking about it and remembering it, and you're like, well, that moment was cool, that was cool, that was cool. But then you start thinking about what they

added up to, and you're not so sure. The film opens with this kind of like, a very clear homage to old Hollywood. You know, it starts out in 1943. We see him in his apartment where he has slept with a man played by Matt Bomer, who we learned is his boyfriend.

And he's an assistant conductor with the New York Philharmonic. And he suddenly gets this promotion to lead conductor. And this is like the trampoline moment for him where he goes from exciting young conductor to one of the most significant figures in American music.

And there's a lot of quick cutting. The movie, you know, opens in 1371, which is like the Academy ratio. This is like, we are blaring at the audience. This is old Hollywood. And it's in black and white and it's in this lush creamy maddie libitek you know colors and this ultimately leads to like this meeting where felicia and lenny get together at a party where betty comden and adolph green are singing and it's like you this is 40s hollywood you know like we're in the throes of an incredible time in American creativity.

This young actress has discovered this young composer. And together, they're going to make something so special. But under the surface, we see he's obviously bisexual. And he is closeted. And he is hiding his relationships from her and from many people in the world. Though not his sister, per se. But there's also something kind of open about it, too. He's not really hiding it from her and he's yeah and like their unwillingness to communicate about it is

like a a signature of the first third of the movie that's true but i wouldn't say the movie's not hiding it like that that first scene after his like big conducting debut he's like in his apartment writing on the town and like Jerome Robbins is, you know, running around and like, it's just that the, the gay luminaries of that era, just like working and creating together.

And she, the skipping to the dream ballet, I guess, I guess they don't say anything, but the way the realization and everything is communicated is everyone's on the same page. And I thought it was, that's one of my favorite scenes of the year. The way that it is explored and communicated. And obviously once Bradley Cooper jumps in himself to do his dance.

So Felicia and Leonard go to observe seemingly a rehearsal of On the Town, which is, you know, he wrote the music for that play along with that musical, along with many others. And at first they're sitting and observing these young actors performing. And then slowly but surely, Bradley Cooper finds himself performing in the musical. And you're right, that is effectively him coming out to her. Yeah. And the looks on, this is a great performance the musical. And you're right. That is effectively him coming out to her. Yeah. And the looks on,

this is a great performance by her. She has no words. And she just watches him perform and the excitement and energy that he has. It's a really great scene. To me, it's like really

the first great scene in the movie. And then very quickly, the movie kind of dispenses with the black and white and this era. And I think the movie kind of picks up a little bit after this.

I think it has a little bit of a slow going beginning. And I think on Netflix, it's going to be a little bit of a struggle for some people through the first roughly 40 minutes. So much of it is in black and white until, which by the way, looks beautiful and is awesome. But I do know that a certain type of Netflix viewer, we have the data now, you know, it's not Ginny and Georgia or whatever the fuck that is. How'd you feel about the data dump you know it's not jenny and georgia or whatever the fuck that is

how'd you feel about the data dump um it was interesting i honestly you know me in spreadsheets i haven't spent like a huge amount of time but uh did you see the film the mother starring jennifer lopez not yet okay i realized that when i was recently cleaning out my ipad storage to add more sesame street episodes um for a plain plate that I still had it downloaded. Okay. Maybe you should check it out like the rest of America. It's the number one most watched movie. Maybe I will. Unfortunately, I only have so much storage and we need a lot of Elmo. And Knox can say Abby now. He yells, Abby, which is tough for me. I'm not a huge Abby fan. Comes for us all. Yeah. Just wait until he gets a Nintendo Switch.

He also likes Rudy, her brother, a lot. I don't know who that is. Yeah, well, it's Abby's brother. Okay, great. I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to Abby. Just like Bernstein, you know? Just show me the facts. Some of these dream bellies.

Then we go into basically the late 60s, where 15 years or so has passed by. And we've kind of like skipped over West Side Story. We've skipped over the New York Philharmonic. We've skipped over a lot of big moments in his life to show Leonard Bernstein at a, you know, at a moment of significant accomplishment. He's in his mid-50s by now.

He and Felicia have been together for a long time. They've got three kids. An absolutely immaculate apartment. High level. Must be, what is that, Park Avenue? Like, just an incredible apartment.

Well, I meant to, hold on. What street, does the parade go down Fifth Avenue, I assume? Macy's Day Parade. Yes.

So, it's on the park on Fifth Ave. Yeah. And we start seeing these snapshots. This late 60s party is where we see that he is, you know, philandering in his marriage,

and he's consumed by his desires, you know, his vices, his predilections. There's a young man who comes to the house. He becomes a significant lover for him. Very shortly thereafter, we see him being interviewed, which is where that scene where he says, I love people so much that it's hard for me to be alone, which is a big part of my struggle as a composer we hear him talking about how he really

has created very little which I find to be such an interesting also kind of self-reflective moment for Cooper who's like yeah I'm in my mid-40s I'm almost 50 what have I really done I've made you know two movies in the hangover you know like there's something kind of like a guy at war with himself but also like he knows he's the man too something very yeah they're very synchronized Bernstein and Cooper in my mind at least um that leads to the Thanksgiving Day parade fight which is significant I think it might actually go down six left okay it might be on the west side I've never gone to the Thanksgiving Day parade um though all I lived in the state well because it ends at Macy's right so I haven't either but M Macy's, Herald Square,

sort of on the west side. Also, wouldn't you assume that Leonard Bernstein would live on the west side if he's trying to get to Lincoln Center? Probably. Okay. Probably. Anyway.

I buy it. The best scene in the movie is Mahler's Symphony No. 2, the resurrection at the cathedral in England. This is like, is this the best movie scene of the year? It might be. No spoilers. It's on my list. This is when I was absolutely moved to tears both times.

And not even by the pure physical recreation of what's going on and the way that Bradley Cooper is channeling the emotion of the music because it really is just Bradley Cooper conducting and the orchestra playing and like that's it I mean that you know the the cameras in interesting places and like moves in and out on him but like it's it is actually putting its finger on the power of music which is you know also an amazing summary of Leonard Bernstein and what he was able to do so I was completely in awe of it when I saw this menace I was like oh Bradley Cooper just won the Like, it is just an absolutely lights out scene. And then for some reason,

it cuts to the Felicia character being like, I love you, there's no hate in your heart. I was like, what? Like, I don't, it's nice, but I don't understand that.

And then the movie keeps going. Yeah, I think there's some wish fulfillment at the end of the scene. It's easy to make fun of Cooper and be like like you spent five years training to be a conductor but like good it worked like this is the rare case where you're like that that is the power of movies he has no there's no score he's doing it all from from memory and like that means he's like doing the performance from memory he has it all like that music and all it's astonishing you can watch Bernstein actually perform yeah yeah yeah um as the conductor with the orchestra and it's one of those things where it is not like note for note

perfect but that's not the point you know like I'm sure maybe it is no for no perfect you can't tell when you watch them side by side but it is it swallows you when he's doing this and it is it's like it is the definition of why go to the movies yeah you know where i'm like it just wraps your arms around you you're taking away the music is so beautiful and he is so committed and he's wearing you know this kazu hero makeup and he's sweating and his hair is all over the place so gross but also so sexy and you're just like you get it like you understand the appeal. I watched it, you know, I knew it was coming and there was like anticipation when I was looking for it, but I found myself last night just like sitting up and sitting forward towards the end of the scene and tearing

up. Like even at home with my shitty speakers. Me too. Even as I was getting more suspicious of the movie as it was going along, it got to that point and I was like, I'm in. I'm back in. Yeah. So I knew we would be on the same page again. Same thing with like a couple of scenes, you know, obviously shallow, but like the putting the finger on the bridge of the nose in the bar scene in A Star is Born.

Like he's got a couple of moves as a director where you're like, you just fucking got it, man. Like you just have the goods. Yeah. And I really feel like as a director he really has the goods and now i'm like i might i might need like you need like a different kind of producer or something because you're you're a little one track with these kinds of stories but i will say i do i do like the rest of the movie now i feel like the rest of the movie is

a different movie it's yeah it's a it's a different movie and i you know felicia is diagnosed with breast cancer and the rest of it is about it's the diagnosis which is just like an absolutely brutal and well done and very moving scene and then and it goes through her illness and i you you know, it is, like, very difficult to watch, but, like, very affecting portrait of someone you love being sick. So there are a few more critical scenes after that. The diagnosis and her sickness is just like anybody who has gone through an experience with cancer, you'll just be like, this is the realest thing you'll ever see. Like, it is such an accurate portrayal of the way that it feels

to watch someone go through that. And the movie is kind of shot through Leonard who's trying to maintain like a sense of like positivity and trying to keep his family together. And the movie really shifts to this very intimate family drama. It's very effective, works really well.

And then, you know, Felicia dies. Yeah. And we see kind of this final act of Bernstein's life where he's kind of like a man about town. He's in Tanglewood teaching students. Mm-hmm. And we see this incredible final moment where he gives a last lesson where he's much older. He's in his 70s. And he's still got all that charisma, but he's got a belly and he's sweatier and he's wrinklier and he's driven up in a convertible

with the license plate maestro blasting the specific line from REM's end of the world as we know it when uh they yell Leonard Bernstein yes uh real goofball like what is that about I was like I lost it the first time I saw it I said said, like, I didn't think anyone else in Italy, like, got it. But I was like, excuse me, what's going on here? It's a really silly moment. In a movie that has just come out of an incredibly emotional sequence. I was like, yeah, no, we get it. And then that wonderful scene is, like, also in so many ways, like, an amazing, if unintentional, rejoinder to the tar scene.

Yes. The infamous tar lesson. Also, a conductor of color who he's adopted and is warm towards. Right. That he is showing the next generation and then- Cut to the clap. Yeah. Loving up on.

In every way, it is in conversation with, but I guess with the complete opposite takeaway in every single respect. Yes. The movie's message is it's okay to take advantage of younger people when you're a person of power. Right. As long as you're nice and supportive of them in the classroom as opposed to humiliating them on YouTube. It really is the other side of the coin. As I rewatched the movie and I thought about what was really working, I think I ultimately just wanted the old Lenny movie. I think I just wanted... That's a really good call. I wanted the movie of him from like 55 to 72 because this is the best stuff in the movie to

me. I think that there's a lot of achievement in the black and white and the energy that Cooper's trying to bring to that performance and we need to, you know, I get why we need to see him meet Felicia,

but if you wanted to make the movie about Felicia, you needed actually more of this era. Yeah, like this era was about the two of them and the beginning is about him

just becoming great. And so I'm kind of torn about the movie because on the one hand it made me feel as excited as any movie I've seen this year and on the other hand I'm very suspicious of what the hell's going on with this movie I don't get what's going on with this movie I I don't and I really I really hate I hate though maybe I don't hate it maybe I feel fine being like who cares about the wife um well if you make a Leonard Bernstein movie it's like it's okay for it to be about him yeah though maybe I don't hate him. Maybe I feel fine being like, who cares about the wife? Well,

if you make a Leonard Bernstein movie, it's like, it's okay for it to be about him. Yeah, exactly. And I like, I, there's,

there is something false about the way this movie is like trying to be like, oh, you know, we need to care about all the people, but like, but like you don't actually, because the character is not like explored except for explored except through the lens of Leonard Bernstein. Do you feel that this is in some ways a paradox though for you with Oppenheimer versus this? Because it sticks out so much in Oppenheimer that he's so disinterested in the female characters that if it had done this in this movie, would you have felt similarly?

I don't know i mean it's a good here let's think through it because i don't know if it's the disinterest in the female characters and how can i the problem is that like no one's getting it right respectfully like no one is actually between between these two movies no one is actually writing characters that i that i believe so female characters female characters i mean so so you know whether you should have done more No one is actually writing characters that I believe. Female characters. Female characters. I mean, so, you know, whether you should have done more or less or, you know, it's whatever. It's like, if you did it well, it wouldn't be a problem. Right, right.

You know, it's interesting to me. I think the best Felicia scene is that scene at lunch with Sarah Silverman where it's just right on her face. And she is crystallizing how she feels about Lenny and what she's given up and where she is and you know the the best writing and the most clear-eyed interpretation of that character is how she feels about Leonard Bernstein you know like it's still just a device of a character as opposed to like a person that I understand. And so, and that,

so that's the issue. So there's two things about that that highly recommend the movie to me. Yeah. Some of what we're responding to, I think, is the poster,

the marketing materials, the way that Cooper keeps saying this is about a marriage, this is a movie about a relationship. Like, you can't help but be influenced by some of those things

when you're thinking about them. But, one, if you've ever been around a very charismatic and successful person, you know that they are a tractor beam, that they suck up. And sometimes it's a vampirism where they suck up everyone else's kind of power

and everybody kind of genuflects at them all the time. So in some ways, I don't think it would have benefited Bradley Cooper to be like, I'm really interested in great men. And so I want to make a movie about a great man. Like that's not something you can say in 2023. But it is clearly a part of the interest. And it is clearly something that the characters are dealing with in the movie.

Maya Hawke has an incredible scene where she has a conversation with her father about some rumors that she heard while she was at school. And he has to do this dance of denying. And in denying, it becomes even more clear how much he is denying the truth to his daughter. And she's very good and he's very good in that scene. Yeah. But that scene's not about her. That scene's about him.

Him, yeah, of course. So it's an accurate reflection of when someone is the center point, the sun in the solar system. So I like that it accomplishes that. The other thing that I really like, and that it took a little bit of thinking to get to this point, the sun in the solar system. So I like that it accomplishes that. The other thing that I really like, and that it took a little bit of thinking to get to this point, but like, what is Leonard Bernstein to music? He's the, he's the original high bro. He's the original high and low master. He's the person who took Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Mozart, all of these incredible composers,

modernized them, brought them to America, brought not, he didn't bringsky, Mozart, all of these incredible composers modernized them, brought them to America, brought not, he didn't bring them to America, but he, he introduced them to the biggest possible audience America had yet seen and made them feel like popular culture. And then in his compositions, writing for on the water for the score for on the waterfront, writing the music for West side story, um, even seeing the, um, the mass, uh, uh, production that he creates which was like he collaborated with Paul Simon on that it was the opening of the Kennedy Center Honors Jacqueline Kennedy was the person who commissioned

that composition he mainstreamed what many people thought was just like snooty inaccessible high rich people art and he made it for everybody and Bradley Cooper's kind of trying to be one of those guys he's trying to be one of those guys who's like inaccessible, high, rich people art. And he made it for everybody. And Bradley Cooper's kind of trying to be one of those guys.

He's trying to be one of those guys who's like, I am in The Hangover and I love Leonard Bernstein. I am a high bro. And I relate to this. I feel the same way. I really like dumb male stupid shit. I like Transformers movies and I like Biggie. But also, I really like sophisticated

great works of art from all over the world, from all over time. And I think that those two things colliding is an exciting proposition. And it's cool that someone in Hollywood with all this power

wants to do that and communicate about that. But by resisting it a little bit too much in the movie he's defeating his own purpose so i i find myself a little stuck on where i land after seeing it a second time i i am as well i'm fascinated by and moved by it and also completely puzzled by it and and and for me it really is like the Felicia character and just the lack of depth there. And it's just uneven. I see what it's trying to do on paper and what it's trying to reflect about this person and what it is like to be in the life of a great man.

But execution-wise, it just doesn't quite get there for whatever reason. And it might just be because the, the man himself, Leonard Bernstein and, and the performance is so powerful that it, you know, everything else gets blocked out. A common complaint I've seen about the movie is that it's not clear enough,

like either why he was great or what he did. That was so great. I kind of disagree with that. Okay. I enough, like, either why he was great or what he did that was so great. I kind of disagree with that. Okay. I mean, I think that, like, interpersonally, like, again, we keep saying charisma, but that Bradley Cooper's performance gives a lot of that. And then I was really moved by the way, like, all of the music is used in the movie. And Juliette Lipman has started rolling her eyes at me when I say, if you can go see this one in a theater, you should. But you should go see this one in a theater.

You should not for the projection, but for the sound. But another scene we haven't talked about is when he is conducting Make Your Garden Grow from Candide, which I don't know how I'm so familiar with that piece of music. I guess I did spend a lot of time in choirs growing up. But I found that incredibly beautiful. It is weaving in the West Side Story score. That's really funny when he brings the new boyfriend

to Fairfield, Connecticut, and basically they use the snapping song. Yes, the jets and the sharks. It's really funny. They've introduced the shark into the jet's home. And there is so much either music he conducted or music that he wrote that is woven into the film, you know, in a way that communicates the level of appreciation

that Bradley Cooper has for it. It does and he clearly gets the music. It does feel like it's fair to, I don't really feel this way, but I think it's fair to say it's too clever by half you know that it's almost like if you are a master of bernstein's music then you get why how smart this is yeah but if you have only a passing or no understanding of who he is and frankly that's not understandable in 2023 right you know i'd like i get that but also do you you don't want the remedial version do you like you don't actually want that i don't i

don't yeah and i just i like i don't so i i don't know you i'm just that's a little bit of a devil's advocate thing but i think people have that reaction if we expect people to like read 35 books about the infinity stones before they show up for a marvel movie then like people can like hit a google search it's a very good point. I completely agree with you. I would not have been opposed to a little bit of West Side Story in the movie. I mean, same. We literally time jumped 10 years away from

probably his most significant contribution to the culture that we talk about on this show. Sure, but we're biased in that sense. So is Bradley Cooper. He makes movies. Right. Anything else you want to say? Any,

any, any other points to make about this movie? You would recommend it. Yeah, absolutely. This seems like a great watch it with your parents movie. If you're home over the holidays. Yeah.

Cause I think, you know, Leonard Bernstein may not be like brand name for people. Our generation are younger, but like the young people's concerts were a huge deal. So, I don't know. If you have parents of a certain age, it seems they might be interested. I'm very curious what the boomers have to say about this movie.

Do you think this movie is helped or hurt by TAR? Hmm. Helped, I guess? I don't know people are taking conductor at least at least it's like an entryway yeah people are taking conductors seriously like you were just saying you know no one knows who Leonard Bernson is but a lot of people think Lydia Tarr is real so at least like they have some sense of like waving a stick around you know it like takes um like some sort of skill and training this is huge for the hashtag not all conductors movement with that has grown over the last year which is really exciting uh i think it's a little a little hurt a little well sure because tar has so much to say you know it's like whether or not they're what movie is better or

whatever like i prefer tar yeah i really liked. Sorry, I liked it a lot. But Tar is like the ultimate chew on it movie. Do you mean like right now in the reception or like in the annals of history? I think Tar like absolutely... Wow, you just asked me

the most difficult question ever. Tar absolutely like hosed Maestro in the annals of history. What do you think Bradley Cooper thought when he watched Tar for the first time? I have heard what he has said

about it, but what did he think? I i thought i know that he thought oh no because that's also what i thought when i saw tar as like oh shit bradley cooper like you missed out it's a tough one yeah he has been very respectful of the movie and has celebrated it for obvious reasons okay oscars yeah um my guy he's out. There's a two-pronged conversation here. There is one, the campaign and the mania of Bradley Cooper, who I'm just going to say again, I love. I think he's like, we need guys like this in Hollywood. We need people like this in Hollywood.

It is absolutely like at 14. You know, it's like, it is insane. Well, he was forced to sit in his vampire coffin during the strikes and couldn't do anything. And he was hungry for campaign blood. And he's out there. He's doing the work. The other problem is obviously like, what awards will the film get? Sure.

I think it'll be nominated for a lot of things. I don't know that it'll win that many. Can he win Best Actor? I don't think so. You think it's Killian Leapy right now? Well, it's Killian. I think you picked Jeffrey Wright. And I think that's an interesting...

A lot of things need to go right. A lot of things need to go right. Who else is in best actor? Leo? Yep. Who won't win because he never wins. Except for the one time. That was great.

He wore a bear or something. Did I ever tell you I saw The Revenant with Bill? No. What was that like? Well, neither of us were huge fans of the movie so that was nice.

When are we doing our the episode where everyone comes and tells us what we got wrong? I don't know. Can we do it in January? Yeah, we can. Because it's kind of like a light month and everyone will be seeing things and turn their mouth off.

I really, I ran into Van after recording last week. And he was like, listen, motherfucker. This is one thing you don't understand. This movie sucks. I won't say what movie. But he wanted to share that we've gotten some things wrong. Yeah. But now that I've suggested it, Andy wants to come on that episode.

Bill wants to come on that episode. Bill just has like a million incredible takes that he's sprinkling through all the things. I think he's still working through episode two of Oppenheimer, which is how he's viewing the film. Slowly but surely. What has been the most bracing Cooper experience for you so far? Well, it's been an incredible fall. The non-campaign campaign was really spectacular. He's dating Gigi Hadid now.

He's wearing her sweaters. He's opening a cheesesteak truck, which, Bobby, did you get to try it? Bad news, everyone. It was only open for two days um when i tried to go see on angelo's pizzeria if they were going to have a different location or come back it appears that it was just a limited time only two days two days yeah it was gone by the weekend they commissioned an entire truck for two days. I don't really, that's all I can tell. I mean, I can go stand on the street corner 24 seven and see if they come back.

If you guys want to find coverage for me, this is devastating. It is really devastating. In fact, I received a text message from a blank checks, Griffin Newman, who said, I need the cheesesteak as well.

Can we coordinate? And it was just gone. We just missed out. Sucks. I mean, but that is just like a textbook what if i can't go promote my movie in the traditional way so i'm gonna do a two-day pop-up i'm i'm not gonna speculate on the funding except to say i'm speculating on the funding in my private time anyway he's on arena shake his exes and the mother of his daughter's Instagram all the time.

I think he was going to like playdates with Taylor Swift. Like just an incredible fall for Bradley Cooper. And then the strike ended and my guy started hitting the interview circuit. All right. He did actors on actors and director on director. But he had Spike Lee to do his director on director thing for Variety I gotta credit Chris Ryan who made sure I had this Instagram reel instantly starts crying and he and Spike Lee are like sitting far from me it's like a between two

ferns style setup but they like keep reaching over the fern to hold each other's hand. And then Spike Lee reveals that he's seen Maestro three times. First, because Bradley Cooper invited his wife to come to Bradley Cooper's screening room, which is just an incredible... That's just smart. Yeah, but... That's just smart. Okay. Number two was when Bradley Cooper went to Spike Lee's NYU grad student class, showed

the film, took questions. And then I guess three was when Spike Lee had to Spike Lee's NYU grad student class, showed the film, took questions. And then I guess three was when Spike Lee had to go to a screening in order to participate in Variety. And then he's like, can you please send me the screener? And then Bradley Cooper does this like incredibly performative. That's so funny. Laugh. It is just months and months and maybe years of years of pent up energy coming out in promotional avenues. It's electric. He starts crying within 30 seconds of talking to Spike Lee, who is clearly a friend of his and he knows.

Imagine if Chris and I were just talking and I just burst into tears. It's important to be in the moment, you know? Yes. He's also wearing a very well-cut sweatsuit. Well, sure. Yeah, but I understand that he's also wearing like a very well-cut sweatsuit well sure yeah but i know i mean i understand that he's from no one understands his philadelphia better than me like no one gets it better than me but it's like if warren baity was born in philly in 1980 like it's so weird because he's doing all the same stuff where he's like kind of cryptic but also like working a little too hard but like magnanimous but also an egomaniac and like it's this unusual

blend of movie star auteur right and then he starts doing the there are no chairs on my set thing and you can sit on an apple crate where i you know i wrote okay chris nolan in the doc but then i followed up and it seems like people have fact-checked the Chris Nolan thing. I don't want to get in trouble here for criticisms that aren't true, you know? So I think that Chris Nolan does allow chairs, but people just don't sit in them. My understanding of this is that when people say that, and you hear this from time to time, it means basically that the director doesn't sit. Yeah. But that, like, if you're a gaffer

or you're and you're working on the crew that's fucking hard work man you can't take people's chairs away that's like work if you've ever been on a set it's not it's not a joke it's it's hard labor so the idea that you could enforce a rule like this in 2023 is ridiculous i think i think it mostly speaks to like maybe Matthew Libetique and Bradley Cooper don't sit when they're making a movie. Right. Because they don't want

the energy to dip. Yes. Yeah. That's great. He's working really, really hard for this. Here's the thing though. I think it's going to work

at least for nominations. People in Hollywood love Bradley Cooper. They love this performance. Like the performance of Bradley Cooper campaigning. I like Bradley Cooper. They love this performance. Like, the performance of Bradley Cooper campaigning. I like his movies. You don't like this? You don't like the lengths he's going to?

I find it stressful, you know? Oh. Well, because it's so thirsty, you know? And you can really feel that, and you know how I feel about that. This can work though. But it does work. Anne Hathaway won. No, I know. For her eighth worst performance. You know what I mean? It's one of those things where if you just throw it all out there, it can

happen. No, I completely agree. He will win a million Oscars at some point. I don't know whether it's going to be for this movie, but people love it. And I love it. It's fascinating to me. Like I love watching it. The crazy thing about it is he's now one of the most nominated people to have never won.

He's, he's been nominated for nine Oscars as an actor and producer over the years. And you're right. There is a, there is a, some sweaty desperation. Um, and not just from his conducting of the resurrection symphony.

Uh, he, this will be nominated for best picture. It'll be Symphony. He is to be nominated for Best Picture. He'll be nominated for Best Actor. He'll be nominated for Best Actress. Definitely be nominated for Best Makeup and Hairstyling. Kazuhiro has already got two Oscars. He was, you know, one of the masters.

He did Bombshell. He did Darkest Hour. Great profile of him by our friend Hua in The New Yorker. I think screenplay. I think. I think so too. Where are you on director? I think he will be the victim of the international body.

I think like if a Glazer type gets in there, he's the one who will get nudged out. I could be wrong about that, but we've seen over the years, you know, the Pawel Pawlikowski types, you know, like Ruben Oslin types, like getting in because of the international nature of the Academy. Ruben Oslin. I want him to win Best Actor.

I'm not even saying he's the most deserving. I don't really know who is the most deserving. I haven't given it a lot of thought. But I want him to win because I want him to stop worrying about this. And what I want him to do is to cut loose and make something that is crazier. If he stops worrying about it, what is he going to make?

Well, I want to know. I want to find out. I don't know, man. I think that his weird, desperate, ambitious, and the torture and the self-doubt and the, like everything that is going on. It's fueling everything we like about this. Let me tell you a little story. Okay. Oh, great.

Warren Beatty spends years of his life making Reds. Yeah. An epic story of a great man. Yeah. John Reed. That movie sweeps at the Oscars and he has proclaimed a mad genius of Hollywood. He has achieved the unachievable. From there, he goes on to make Dick Tracy and Bullworth.

And rules don't apply. Your favorite movie of the last 10 years. So what I want to say is I want to know what Bradley Cooper's Dick Tracy is. I want to know what Bradley Cooper's Bullworth is. Why? Because I love those movies

and they're so crazy. What if we got eight more A Star is Born, you know? Like eight, which this is, by the way. We did it.

We did it already. This is another A Star is Born. We got that. Show me the crazy thing. This is crazy. This movie is absolutely batshit. Everything that we're seeing is a man breaking down in real time, you know?

Like, and I wish him happiness in his life, but this is incredible art, you know? I don't want the resolved shit. I don't want, like, therapy is great. If you think Bulworth is the work of a resolved man, I got another thing for you. Listen, I don't, I also, Listen, I don't. I also like. I don't. I don't know. I don't want Bradley Cooper's JMO.

You know what I'm saying? Oh my God. I so do. Bradley Cooper. Come on, JMO, dog. Don't be afraid. He's always welcome. The invite is always open to Brad.

He has the password and everything he needs. The links. Can I just wait? Can I just quickly say. Yeah. I don't. I don't really see it as like unhinged or not unhinged. I think that Cooper is just doing something

that like nearly no one else is doing these days, which is just making self-serious stuff and not caring. You know, he's like not self-conscious about his artistry,

which is why so many people in Hollywood fucking love him. And whether you read that as like he wants the award or he needs the award, he probably does whether he realizes it or not. But I do feel he realizes refreshing well he does yes it's refreshing to have somebody in hollywood making big swings like this that is isn't trying to be like cynical and quippy and

witty and like too smart for his own good you know like he's not afraid of being made fun of you could make fun of him for so much shit in this and a star is born but he's like i'm putting it all out there i think in i think you're kind of right i here's here's the thing like martin scorsese and leonardo dicaprio did the same thing this year they did the same thing there's no jokes about killers of the flower moon every interview that they're giving everything they're participating in they're giving us the same level of sincerity and thoughtfulness the thing is is, is they don't have this live wire, like I just nailed a rail of cocaine energy that Bradley Cooper brings to everything. I'm not saying he uses cocaine.

I'm just saying that the energy that he gives you when he's talking about this stuff, it's like, whoa, my man, are you okay? And he is sincere when he is doing that. He's just doing it in like an old time, like we are all alive now kind of way he is the he is still the guy on the actor's studio like crying in the audience while he's asking who gino like whose question is he asking don't we need that though we need it but that's right we need it to keep

going if you resolve that right if you give him what he wants i fully relate to this like i'm not making fun of it i i think it's amazing i think there's like i think he has even though he's not bringing self-awareness to the campaign trail he's brought too much self-awareness to this movie and the way that it's being rolled out and that is ultimately the flaw of the movie there's too much of like if i make this too much about me people are gonna think i'm an egomaniac but in not realizing that by making a movie about an egomaniac he is making it about himself as an egomaniac like there is a there's a fundamental circadian flaw of the movie that is fascinating and fun to talk about I agree but it still makes it tricky um is this an insane conversation? Sure. But it's like befitting

like a completely insane but fun piece of filmmaking that I enjoyed. Bob, do you recommend Maestro? I loved it. I loved it. I had a great time.

Yeah. If you try to overthink it, maybe you won't. Or if you don't vibe with Cooper's self-seriousness his earnestness and his artistry if that kind of thing turns you off then maybe not but if you just want a movie to like move your pleasure centers like auditorially visually it's up there man i mean

it's not in my top five of the year or anything like that but we should have things like this and i think that the comparisons to tar though i understand them are kind of like selling both movies short like we can have two movies about the same thing that aren't trying to compete with each other that aren't superhero movies you know or like big top action movies like they're not that similar really but they are if like you it's like comparing like logan with captain marvel you know what i mean it's like they're both superhero movies but they really have nothing to do with each other they're not trying to say the same thing they're It's like, they're both superhero movies, but they really have nothing to do with each other. They're not trying to say the same thing.

They're not telling similar stories. They're not even really filmed and created in the same way. They're just the same milieu. They've just got people waving a stick. It's just that there are not a lot of movies about conductors.

So I think it's fair to make the comparison that they've come in successive years. And that one scene, those scenes. The conductor cinematic universe, you know, the CCU.

I'm rolling that out. And Burnside's in tar. So, yeah. There's some reasons to draw the comparison. Easter egg culture, you know the CCU I'm rolling that out and Burnside's in tar so yeah there's some reasons to draw the comparison Easter egg culture you know well

I'm certainly glad we've got it I am as well it might be a while before I watch this one again okay did Eileen watch it fell asleep in 35 minutes

did she enjoy the 35 minutes that she watched I heard the phrase huh huh, like three times. That is a great one-word summary of what's going on. But also, you know, huh? But wow. But huh.

Yeah. I need her to get to the second half. Because as I said, I love the second half of this movie. And I think there's some extraordinary stuff in it. Okay. This has been a lot of fun. We've got one more episode for you this week. It's our second week of three episodes.

How are you feeling about the three episode weeks? I honestly. Too much? I just, I go where you tell me and I do my homework. Okay. And so I'm not totally conscious of the publishing schedule at this point. I also like last night on the phone, my mom and I had like a five minute conversation about which day is Christmas this year.

So I'm just like, I'm just like, one podcast at a time. You know, my guy? It's always the day that Christ rose. Thank you so much. No, that's... Oh, it's the day he died. My bad.

What? He died, when did he rise? He was born, brother. It's his birthday. It's his birthday. Jesus Christ, it's about a baby.

When did he die? Easter? Yeah. The nativity scene. Good Friday. No, Easter's when he rose. Yeah, he dies on Good Friday and he rises on Easter. Yeah. The nativity scene. Good Friday. No, Easter is when he rose. Yeah. He dies on Good Friday and he rises on Easter.

That's right. I forgot. Those things are grouped. You know? Have I been telling Alice this? This is the day Jesus was slain by the Romans. In some ways, you know. Santa is Jesus.

He was f faded this way anyway so the day he was born is the day he died you know that's the way it was meant to be I think my bible card has been revoked

I know I was going to say you held the belt for a while but now it's back for me which is really exciting I'm like thank you for this present of the bible scholar

of the big picture you got it you're holding it you're holding it through new years okay Bob thanks for your work on this episode

he's our producer we'll be back talking about American fiction as we mentioned later this week see you then You're holding it through New Year's. Okay. Bob, thanks for your work on this episode. He's our producer. We'll be back talking about American fiction, as we mentioned, later this week. See you then.