The Big Picture - 'Marriage Story' Destroyed Us. Plus: Noah Baumbach on His Divorce Opus. | The Big Picture

Episode Date: November 8, 2019

Writer-director Noah Baumbach's latest is one of the year's best and most emotionally devastating films. The Netflix release stars Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson as a young couple reckoning with the dissolution of their relationship and the separation of their intertwined lives. Sean and Amanda take a long look at this story; how it will make you feel about your marriage; Baumbach's catalog of erudite, entertaining movies; and the history of divorce movies (1:25). Then, Baumbach joins Sean to talk about the making of 'Marriage Story,' transposing autobiography onto creative work, and the genius of composer Randy Newman (61:15). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Noah Baumbach Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball 2.0 podcast is officially out. This new podcast extends and reinvents his New York Times number one bestselling book from 2009 and breaks down the NBA's most important games, players, and teams. Starting with Steve Kerr in the premiere episode, Bill's using new commentary and fresh interviews to determine how the league has evolved and where it's headed. The first four episodes are out now wherever you get your podcasts and will continue on a weekly basis. Check out The Book of Basketball on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey.

I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about being alive. Today we turn our attention to Marriage Story, Noah Baumbach's 11th film, and what some are calling his very best. This is perhaps the movie that Amanda and I have been most looking forward to this year. It arrives in theaters, though not yet on Netflix, this week. And we're going to have a long and sincere conversation about this movie later in the show.

I have a conversation with Baumbach where we talked about the making of the film, its influences, a lot of other great stuff. I hope you'll stick around for that. But first, we go right into the belly of the beast. Here we are. Marriage story, Amanda. What did you think of this movie?

Yeah, I was totally overwhelmed by it it and i've been practicing not crying while talking about it uh which i probably will mess up somewhere in this podcast but i think what you said is true that a lot of people are calling it his best and i think that that's true. I'm a massive Baumbach fan. I kind of realized in terms of I grew up as a film watcher maybe with Baumbach as much as any other director, which is sort of strange until you think about the fact that I'm a hype, overeducated person who wanted to live in New York their whole life and is very neurotic. White, liberal, East Coast, aspirant New York resident. Yes. White, liberal, East Coast, aspirant, New York resident. Yes. I didn't grow up in New York, but, you know, came to Kicking and Screaming in college and kind of just went from there. So I had been anticipating it as a Baumbach movie and a major Baumbach work. And I think it really is that. It is possibly his best movie. We'll talk about it. And then, as referenced in the teaser

and referenced in our personal conversations, I am a child of divorce. As am I. And I'm a person in a marriage. As am I. And this movie

was really close in a good way. Mm-hmm. I think. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think Baumbach is such an extraordinarily perceptive writer. And he is a writer of darts. He writes with concision and clarity and a kind of,

sometimes it's a meanness, sometimes it's a sense of humor, sometimes it's with a real emotional clarity. This is not among his most acerbic movies. It's among his most sincere movies. Now, there are moments of anger and intensity and meanness. But for the most part, it is a little bit softer, a little bit more. It's not sentimental, but it has a feeling of regret baked inside of it. It has a feeling of compromise baked inside of it.

A lot of confusion about choices made. And so it is on the one hand, because it has these brilliant creative people caught in the tangle of their own lives and their own relationships and kind of bound by, but also exceeding their own intelligence at all times it's it has a slightly different sheen on it than a lot of his other movies to me i i walked out feeling like huh like is that maturity is that restraint i think you know he's been saying that this is a love story which if you've seen the movie you know that that's that's quite a bold statement but i think

it is and there is real there is love baked into this in strange ways and then like the many different things that love can mean in a marriage and in a family and between two people and between a parent and a child um but i kind of thought i walked out of that being like oh cool that's not a story about divorce that's a story about a marriage, which, you know, that's cute because it's literally in the title. But I thought that was true. I've realized that's my possibly most divorced kid take is that you walk out of this movie that is in a lot of ways about disintegration and the practicalities of a divorce and the legal battles and the construction of how these two people are going to separate their lives and to think, oh, that, but that's just about marriage. That's because my assumptions, that reflects something about my assumptions about marriage. But I do think ultimately this movie is working to understand that relationship and ultimately ends with like with a lot of affection and respect for the marriage within it yeah so just to set the stage a little bit for what the film is about

it essentially tells the story of Charlie who's played by Adam Driver and Nicole who's played by Scarlett Johansson Charlie is a theater director Nicole was at one point his muse and was also, I believe, a child star and is now a successful actress in film and television. And it's the story of their marriage coming apart. I don't think it's a movie about divorce. I don't even specifically think it's a movie necessarily about marriage. I think it's a movie about getting divorced, which is a unique kind of story to tell that hasn't really been told very many times on screen, which I have, I find kind of fascinating. But you're right that in telling the tale of getting divorced, you show the peculiarities and the particulars of being married and the negotiations you make

and the things that you leave unsaid. That's one of the like most emotionally taxing and almost destroying parts of the movie are when the gloves come off and people start saying what they really think because it's over. And I don't want to spoil any of the showdowns. We'll talk maybe a little bit about them. But there is one showdown in particular that is among one of the most cataclysmic emotional showdowns I've ever seen in a movie. Yes. It is on a par with movies like Network, where it's just people at the top of their lungs spraying intelligent pain everywhere. Yeah, it is.

Though even there, it's a different type of pain. It's anger and it's really hurtful, but never vicious in the way, say, the squid and the whale is. Yeah, it's a good comparison. Which, you know, and you mentioned the tone, the tone being a little different. And even when these people are saying the things that you don't say in a marriage, and the reason you know the marriage is over is because they're saying a lot of the things that you learn to keep in your head. But there is some, I don't even want to call it restraint, but I think it is a respect for the other person or just some sort of, he's

trying to preserve something. And there is a lot of affection within this movie, which I think is really, it's a kind of a second half of Baumbach's career sort of thing, but it's pretty notable, especially when compared with some of his more acerbic early movies. Yeah. Making note of The Squid and the Whale, we'll probably talk about a lot in this conversation just because that's his first quote unquote divorce movie. As you said, you grew up with Baumbach, as did I, and he is a famously autobiographical filmmaker, even though the handful of times I've talked with him, he's very reluctant to show his hand on that stuff. But it's invariably true that he is pulling from so much life experience. He talked a bit about in this movie interviewing friends and even interviewing strangers about their divorces and trying to integrate some of those details into this film, too.

So you can't draw the one-to-one conclusion, but Noah Baumbach was married to an actress, Jennifer Jason Leigh. They had a child. They got divorced. It's inevitable that some of, if not a lot of that experience would be suffused in the story like this. Scarlett Johansson also notably divorced.

She has talked about how she brought a lot of her pain and her perspective on this movie. The thing that is complicated about it, and I think the one major criticism that the film has gotten that I wanted to try to address with you, is the movie is portrayed as, and even sold in the trailer,

as a two-hander, a from both perspectives kind of story. This is Nicole. This is Charlie. This is what Nicole loves about Charlie. This is what Charlie loves about Nicole. This is how they separated. And for a time, that is the movie. And then the movie shifts a little bit. Now, when I talked to Noah, he said that there was intention and purpose behind that,

that he wanted Nicole to be more at the front half of the film and Charlie more at the back half of the film. And then obviously they have this thing happening between them in the middle of the movie. But the criticism that he's obviously they have this thing happening between them in the middle of the movie. But the criticism that he's gotten is that this is ultimately Charlie's movie. And I'm wondering if you had that reaction to it. If you felt like it ultimately turned into an Adam Driver showcase. Yeah, of course. But is that a criticism? I mean, that's kind of, that's where I am with it.

It is very clearly, it is written and directed by Noah Baumbach. And he is a writer-director. He is writing the hell out of this. And the Charlie character is clearly the stand-in for him. I mean, he is a director of theater, but not of movies. And you don't have to be too invasive into Noah Baumbach's life to be able to draw some of the New York to LA comparisons. There is a great New Yorker profile of Baumbach and with Greta Gerwig is very present in the piece from 2013 in the New Yorker by Ian Parker

that I recommend and that will fill in all of the biographical similarities that you need, which is not to say that you can't make fiction from that, but he's writing from a perspective. He has always written from a very perspective. And ultimately, it is the Adam Driver character who he knows. He knows that. And I think he does a pretty good job of writing the Nicole character and giving her a lot more to say and showing her side of things more than a lot of these types of movies would do. But ultimately, it's being told from the perspective of Charlie. I think the other note here is that it's the most incredible Adam Driver performance that has been committed to film yet and probably the performance of the year, as I think you already said. I have. And so at at some point it's just kind of like if he's bringing that I don't know what you could have written

or what you would do to overshadow Adam Driver in this movie it's extraordinary yeah and Noah has talked and spoke to me a bit about the collaboration that he and Adam had and they were talking about this before he'd even even written it and then I think Adam brought a lot of his experience in his marriage to the to the. And he seems like a very precise kind of actor. The thing that's amazing to me about what Driver is doing is he is representative of all of the different colors of the movie. So this movie, if you look at the poster, seems like probably a fairly serious drama. You'll think of Kramer versus Kramer when you look at the poster. It's meant to evoke that feeling. But there are parts of the movie that are more light drama.

There are parts of the movie that are comedy. There's like a kind of physical comedy that Adam Driver is doing in this movie that is amazing. I won't spoil one sequence in particular that happens inside of his apartment, but it is amazing. So funny and so strange. And there's a musical quality to the movie. You know, there is a lot of song performance. And there's also like, there's a horror movie quality to it. There are sequences where people are doing things to each other that is really upsetting. And there are things also that I think lawyers are doing in this movie that I think are really upsetting that is somewhere shifting between comedy and horror. And Driver is kind of always at the center of it all Nicole the Nicole character

does get to have a couple of significant set pieces there's one scene in particular with Laura Dern early in the movie where she is sort of explaining her her personhood in the marriage that is is really amazing it's I think that might be also the best Scarlett Johansson thing that I've ever seen. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Just one incredible take. And she's moving all around the office. And just a very long, involved, emotional monologue that she delivers as if it's off the top of her head and pretty confessional. And I think one thing that's interesting in the movie portrays it as Nicole's choice and the Charlie character.

And that monologue is her kind of talking herself up to the decision in real time and talking about how she's felt and what's going on in the marriage. And there is this interesting sort of gendered thing to it, which is the woman knows what's going on and what she has not been getting from the marriage. And the man is just kind of, the Charlie character seems pretty blindsided and doesn't really understand what's been happening or why this is happening now or why it can't be fixed. And, you know, you could see that as like imbalanced or you could see that as honest. And I think also the Nicole character being given the opportunity to to work through that realization in real time I hadn't really seen anything like it before yeah I think seen from one perspective it's pretty self-lacerating on Baumbach's part um and and it's it's so dicey to kind of make these one-to-one this must be your life parallels on a lot of these things but

there is I'll just say that that was very resonant for me and and in my relationship which I don't you know we're in very strange territory here but it's like I I'm sure I have heard my wife say that to me you're not giving me what I need which is not something that I don't even think that's an impulse that I understand so in a way it's a credit to Boundback to like find a way to literalize that and performatize that and give the character that he's writing the power, the clarity to say that in the movie. And it's the kind of depth and clear-eyed approach to writing that in the wrong hands is terrible, is like bad playwriting. And in the right hands can be just like transformative where you like see your life differently when you see someone doing it well and i don't think the movie is always operating on that level of the like wow this changed my life but it is really perceptive

about some things that will you'll feel yourself inside of and yeah that is i completely agree with that and the power of the movie is that it is about getting divorced, which is a very common phenomenon. A lot of people have either been through it or been adjacent to it by being a child of it or a parent of it or, you know, have a friend. So, but it's still, I think, it's a pretty specific experience being played out in the movie, but it does kind of work to some really, really broad emotions about what it's like to be in a relationship and losing yourself in a relationship or losing the other person in a relationship or just the work of being in a relationship, the regrets of being in a relationship. And I think pretty much anyone who is in any type of relationship, not even in a marriage, though certainly, Lord, it gets marriage right, can relate to that in some way. And I do think Baumbach tends to be pretty emotionally specific, which is why I have always liked him because he's my emotional specific. But this one seems like it could be open up to a lot of people.

I agree. And I think a lot of people will watch this and will be interested in it and will probably relate to it. And it is so funny. I mean, there's such a dearth of divorce movies. There are so few movies that approach this. I asked him about it and I thought what he said made a lot of sense about why. But even in just trying to make a list, I mean, what are the classics? We mentioned Kramer versus Kramer and The Squid and the Whale, which I'd like to talk about a little bit more in depth with you too. But I mean, I wrote down Mrs. Doubtfire. Noah

reminded me of Shoot the Moon, Alan Parker's movie, which is a great movie. I put Stepmom on. And Stepmom. I mean, I'm sure there are others and there are lots of other films and television shows that have looked at divorce, but this kind of under-the-hood diagnostic approach to what happens to a family when this happens. There is a kind of critical mechanical aspect to it about when does a child go on what day and, you know, what rights does one person have versus another? How can I afford my lifestyle now that I have to pay for these other things? When do I see the people I need to see is such a critical part of, as you know, being in a divorced family, of being in a divorced family that so few movies are willing to look at that for whatever reason.

Right. And even the movies that you just named are pretty much all from the perspective of the kid or what is this doing to the kid or like the tragedy of being a kid in a divorce family, which, yeah, that's true. We can talk about it. But this movie is really from the perspective of the two people in it. It's the adult divorce movie. So it still has like the sad dad apartment, which was just such an emotionally resonant moment of, you know, the weird apartment that you find and there's nothing in it. And you as the kid really don't want to be there, but it's like the day and you kind of have to. And that bullshit of having to do something twice because it's someone's day.

Like that is all there. And that is something you experience as a kid, but it's shown from the perspective of the Charlie character who gets the costume and is like dragging the kid around and doesn't want to be in the apartment. Also, just the amount of lawyer stuff and the lawyer stuff on the adult level is pretty new here. I haven't really seen anything like that, even in the, I mean, Kramer versus Kramer is part of it, but it's very, it's a little little more that takes aside a little more and is also about the kids experience for a long time before you get to the custody battle and this is really just

the custody battle yes kramer versus kramer is a complicated movie to unpack now obviously the gender politics in this country have changed a lot it's a movie made by men dustin hoffman is the big star in the movie the movie gets to be from his perspective and is very sympathetic to his character throughout the whole film. And that character actually, I think, has a lot in common with Jeff Daniels' character in The Squid and the Whale, insofar as something bad happens to him. He is cheated on or abandoned. And so he is kind of lashing out and reckoning with his feelings. And we see that movie. Now, there's this extraordinary Meryl Streep performance in Kramer vs. Kramer that is somewhat ambiguous. And I think as time goes on, the way we perceive that character has changed a lot. She was once thought of as this sort of like selfish, in pursuit of self-discovery, bad mom.

And now I think as our culture changes, the way we see that character maybe changes a little bit too. I wouldn't be so sure, but yeah. Well, at least from some corners. Sure. The squid and the whale does something. It's just so caustic. It's so angry. And it's so funny and so self-aware, but so loaded with bile. And the way that every character talks to each other.

And the way that the few characters that don't have bile are portrayed. It's a fascinating movie to rewatch in the aftermath of this one. It's also very crisp. It's super short. And it's spring-loaded with antagonism throughout. Marriage Story isn't really like that. The tonality of the movies are totally different. There's an acceptance in Marriage Story about, I don't know, the difficulty of being an adult.

Rewatching Squid and the Whale, I was like, oh, this was Arrested Development. This is a teenager's perspective. And I think it's unbelievably well done in that context because, you know know you can remember being 15 and hating everybody and thinking everybody was an asshole and especially when these things get complicated and don't make any sense and you don't have any say in it and and you're angry you express that in a lot of different ways but it really the whole movie is so angry and told from that really knee-jerk reaction and this marriage story is a bit more lived in. Yeah, I think that The Squid and the Whale is like,

and bear with me, this is a little groan-worthy, I'm sure, but it's a little like early Philip Roth. And this movie is a little more like late to mid-period Philip Roth. Yeah. It's not just the maturity, but it's the having a little bit less of an ax to grind with your characters in a way. Yes.

A little bit less revenge seeking, I suppose. It's going to fit neatly into the canon. I'll say that. It really is one of the most sophisticated portrayals of this thing. And that level of specificity you're talking about with the lawyers is amazing. I mean, they're talking about, you know, he writes and signs the check in the room. You know, they're ordering lunch during the meeting. You know, those small meetings in Alan Alda's character's office

are like scarily resonant about, you know, you've done your best and you've visited five different places and this is the only person you can get. The kind of like, even the high-llywood strategy that is baked into this movie yeah is so so well seen you know that's something you would you would read about that in a new yorker profile but you'd never see it in a movie you'd never see laura dern's character's office just that way in a movie so he's really he's really working with precision here. And it's both infuriating. I think the thing about the process of getting divorced as portrayed in this movie is even as he sees everything and is observing everything and has that critical eye, it's all portrayed from a place of total disbelief. Like none of this makes any sense. Like why is this all happening? And why is it happening this way? Which I think is probably a very common feeling when going through a divorce.

I mean, even going through a fight. If I'm in a fight with my wife, my reaction, which I'm sure is utterly infuriating, is like, why are we doing this? Right. This is a waste of my time and your time. Right. But also the inability to make it happen. You're just watching the crash and you can't do anything about it. And also just being like, how do we get here?

And is this really how it's going to happen? Is this really how it's going to happen is this really how it's happening um which is i think it that requires also a level of of distance and maturity that maybe you don't have when you're watching your parents get divorced and are really angry yeah it's really it's wise and yet its characters are have made make many mistakes which is a very rare combination. Like there is recrimination on both sides. I would say ultimately there is more recrimination. There's more guilt on Charlie. But even Nicole, who seemingly is a good person and wants the right things for herself and her family, does think, I mean, the concept of hiring a kind of sharky attorney is on the one hand perceived as

empowering and the thing that you should do when you are fighting for what's yours but also it is revealed that it is like can be vicious and dangerous and alienating from who you thought you were and it kind of transforms you like there there's complexity in that in that that choice that her character makes yeah and also just the fact that she doesn't really seem to have a lot of conscious... I think she knows what she's doing, but she doesn't know what she's doing. She's starting something,

but she doesn't really understand the full nightmare that is to come, which is maybe supposed to be a comment on some larger things as well. But yeah, neither of them really seems to fully understand what's going on or even have wanted it to get that vicious. They're hapless in the failure of their marriage, which is such a, that's also a unique way of portraying it.

I feel like what we usually see is like a network dramas portrayal of like a breakup. And it's like one person is very strident and the other person is a victim or both people are terrible and like yell at each other all the time it's this isn't that that there's something different going on here i don't know if that's a desire to kind of be safe and like protect because he's so unsparing at certain times but it's a it is a different way of portraying going through a divorce than i've ever seen before and that's part of what i think is so remarkable about it i think it's it's generous somehow to both of them even as they're all they're doing the worst things and kind of making bad decisions and not thinking through what they're doing and there is kind of a generosity

to the entire movie because ultimately it's working towards maybe not a restoration of the family but a preservation and protection of that family. And that is what they're doing. And all the lawyer stuff is trying to figure out what this family will be. But it is very clearly coming from a place of still wanting to preserve or to save what you can from that family and that affection somehow. And I think that's ultimately what it gets its power from. What do you think about making Henry, the son, the sort of not the emotional fulcrum of the movie

and also almost a little bit more unaware of some of the stakes? Kind of annoying at times. A little bit, yeah. Because I think sometimes parents view their children as nuisances. But not that these characters necessarily see him that way, but they see him more as a, like a stalking horse for their emotions than the kid. Right. You know, and like you said, all of those other divorce movies are seen through the eyes of a destroyed teenager or a confused nine-year-old.

E.T. is like that. You know, E.T. is about this kid having this emotional crisis and making a friend while looking for ways to figure out his life in the aftermath of his parents' divorce. Henry is the least developed character in the movie. Yeah. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just, it's a new way to approach it.

It had me thinking a lot about the squid and the whale, which obviously is largely through Jesse Eisenberg's character's eyes, but even through his younger brother's eyes at times. And also shows you the like, we're sitting you down and telling you we're getting a divorce, which is like one of the most traumatic things you can ever go through as a human being. It's just so crazy to be a kid and have your parents tell you that.

I can't even begin to tell you. But also, like, the Henry character is not about him. You know, it's like it's entirely about him, but it's not about him. And I thought that was kind of a fascinating choice. Yeah, I think when I said this is a movie about marriage and not divorce, I think because as a kid who's gone through it, I can only understand divorce is what it means for the kid. That's some real only child shit for you. It's also some divorce kid shit. I'm sorry. I can relate to it. You know what? That's how it goes.

But yeah, it's not about him. And I think that one thing I liked about this was, despite the fact that the custody battle is pretty much the center of the movie and gets gloves off at time there is that one scene between Laura Dern and Ray Liotta in the in the courtroom when they're just kind of using all the small details and idiosyncrasies of a marriage like against the other via these two kind of showboating lawyers it's pretty great I mean it's horrifying but their performances are great. But- Shout out to Ray Liotta, man.

Yeah. If we started a place of reason and they started a place of crazy, that whole sequence too is just amazing. I love Ray Liotta. But they're not really, they're never trying to keep the kid from the other person.

It's not like a nightmare custody battle and they're not being the worst versions of themselves. And that's actually the real tragedy of divorce is that most of the time everyone's just trying to figure things out. It's not people screaming at each other in a Park Slope townhouse. Right. You know, I was rewatching Squid and the Whale and there is the scene when, I guess it's when Jesse Eisenberg is confronting Laura Linney about having an affair. And she's like, your father told you. And, you know, that happens.

But that's like, those are badly behaving divorce people. And it's not always like that. In fact, the tragedy of all this splitting up is in the small things. It's in the, you already went trick-or-treating and you don't want to go trick-or-treating with me anymore. And maybe we won't go to dinner as a family. And the kid doesn't want to spend time with you right now. It is actually this small, sad things. So I think the kid is not a main character because this is about two people.

It's about adults. But I like the different side of it that it was able to show. What about as a married person? Oh, shit. That was this. I mean, I watched it as a married person and that was really. I mean, you know, I left feeling good about marriage, which is a crazy thing to say. I don't know.

Let me work through this. I mean, it's pretty real. But here's the thing. You were a child of divorce and then you got married. So I got married young and you got married very young. But like you definitely thought of the possibility of all this happening, right? Oh, certainly. And like I certainly did. And for a while I was like, I will never get married because then inevitably like something, something terrible will happen. And you'll put a child in a terrible position. And, you know, why do we need to get married?

It's just a piece of paper. You've heard me do this. You and I relate on that level in a very big way. And but so the thing is, is that then the contents of this movie aren't that scary to me because I've already played through it in my head a thousand times. And I really like being married and I, so far it's going great, but you know, no, I think that's true. But, but part of me in my head is like, well, marriages do end. It's not like some fairy tale where suddenly everything just stops working and you're completely disoriented. I kind of know that it's a possibility, not just for me, but for anybody. So it wasn't as scary. And then as a result of that, I thought the way that it examined this idea that marriages are complex, emotional, and practical things that require a lot of work or else they break down.

I thought it was astute. I thought it captured a lot of the hard things and, you know, ultimately ended in the fact that they are a successful theater director who won a MacArthur Genius Award or a famous television actor who makes a lot of money. But just insofar as like the Charlie character is a person who over a period of time has gotten increasingly infatuated with his work and impressed by himself. That's dangerous. That's dangerous stuff.

And that happens to people. That can happen to me. You have to be able to see that about yourself and not let it act against you. The Nicole character becomes ultimately withholding and doesn't totally know how to express how she feels in the relationship to her partner. And that both of those things cause this incredible erosion of trust and interest in each other. And that like the work that cause this incredible erosion of trust and interest in each other. And that like the work that you're talking about is a real thing and a fascinating thing.

That's the other thing that you never hear people talk about in movies. Maybe it's just because it's kind of dull to say, well, you have to do is be present, look somebody in the eye. If you have a problem, try to communicate clearly about the problem. Otherwise, that's how people end up banging the woman who does the costumes in the theater performance that you're working on. Or that's how people end up moving across the country. Right, exactly. And it's a uniquely persuasive case for marriage in a lot of ways. Yeah. Because it's obvious, like, these people ultimately are selfish in some ways, and they're doing the things that they want to do and they shouldn't be together.

That's why they split up because they just shouldn't be together. They'd convince themselves that they were perfect for each other at a time when things were different. Right. And then life changes. Yeah. It's not that they shouldn't be together necessarily. It's also that they stopped trying to be together and kind of didn't really realize it. They stopped doing – they stopped actually building a marriage.

They were each wrapped up in their own particular narratives. And I think that is like kind of heartbreakingly illustrated in the opening of the movie, which is in the trailer so we can talk about it. So those letters that they read to each other, oh my God, this is when I'm going to start crying. Those letters that were in the kind of perspective trailers that were released are the opening of the movie. And there's a great observation that Greta Gerwig makes in the New Yorker profile I mentioned, where she says that bomb-backed movies tend to start with a hint of where they're going to go. And they point out the squid and the whale, which starts with a tennis scene of like

me and mom versus you and dad. and she points out that greenberg starts with the greta character driving and being like are you gonna let me in like it's right there um and so i had just read that when i went to see marriage story and it starts with these letters of these what turn out to be therapy exercises but they're affirmations of love and what the person likes about the other person. But they are also specific, you know, they're separated. It's one person's version of another person, which may or may not add up to who they actually are and what they are actually being in a marriage. And it's really moving. You know, those montages are like beautifully filmed and edited and are very romantic and like ultimately pretty heartbreaking.

And won't spoil it, but those letters come back. And that's when I lost it. No, yeah. I felt similarly. I think it's also, I feel like marriage can be sometimes about being with someone who's the only person that actually understands how you feel about things. But it can also be someone who you imagine understands you perfectly, even if they don't. And when it goes awry, it's usually the latter. And so there is this kind of, there's this rosiness portraying that opening sequence, but it's like, it's kind

of, it's a little bit of a lie too. It's like, the feelings are true. The observations feel real, but they're the things that you love about someone. They're not the things that are the someone. They're just the things that you love about someone. They're not the things that are the someone. They're just the things that you love about them. Yes. And there's a distinction between those two things. Absolutely. I thought a lot about, you know, people often say like when they write their own vows.

Did not do that. Neither did I. Moving on. But they often say, you know, you make me want to be a better person or I like who I am when I'm with you which is again and that idea of the reflection of and can be a nice thing that someone sees something else in you or someone brings out something else in you and people can learn how to be slightly different in relationships or learn how to respond to someone in a way but you you are always are who you are and that person can't always live up to the idea of someone else, even if it's a nice idea. What other scary and

unvarnished feelings do you want to share about marriage story? Well, you want to talk about the fight scene for a second? Sure. Well, because you asked my unvarnished thing and I was like, I thought that seems normal. Oh my God. Okay. In the middle of this movie, there is a very, a catastrophic fight. I'm not going to spoil specifically what's said in the fight, but it is, it's shot like a scene from Zack Snyder's 300.

You know, it is, it is a war. It is. It's not actually shot like Zack Snyder's 300. Just to be clear, there's color and the cinematography doesn't change and everyone's wearing a shirt.

Imagine if Zack Snyder made Marriage Story. It's a very, it's sort of anti-cathartic scene. You know, it's a lot of people letting their feelings and trying to hurt each other. So you're saying that's commonplace for you? No, it's not.

And I don't think we've ever had a fight like that because I think those are a lot of the things that you can never— The only kind of fight you can have when it's over. Exactly. Exactly. Because you can't take those things back. And you kind of learn that in a marriage of to be honest and to be yourself. But sometimes you don't need to say the thing that is just an outlet for your anger. You know, and they're just saying things to hurt the other person rather than to being honest, rather than having a constructive conversation. But I guess...

But you've had a bare knuckled showdown from time to time. We all have, I feel like. Well, no, now that I'm saying this, it's kind of interesting because... I mean, this is a divorce kid thing, but probably... I think I'm probably more casually apt to say stuff like that. Because as everyone knows, I just say cruel things that, you know, I don't really filter. But when my husband and I actually fight, he is the one that will actually yell more because he comes from a happy marriage.

My parents have a happy marriage. They have a lovely marriage. I mean, I think they've been married for almost 40 years. Congratulations to them. But so there isn't that fear in the, when fighting that you say the really, really intense thing, then it will all be over. It will be safe. Yeah.

Yeah. There is a. Yes, I have. Yes. You know, and so. Oh, man. Which is really intense. But I think, I guess just because, you know, it's over in that moment.

For me, there wasn't that same fear because I approach any fight from this idea of let's. But we got to keep this together. We got to keep this. Okay. You know, it can't end with us actually breaking up. Yep. Um,

and there's something about the way that fight is timed. It's kind of like, well, it's just, it's an airing of airing of grievances. It is. It's the one you have to have once you've decided that it is over at that time.

It's obvious that it's over between them, but, um, it's, it's an, an absolutely amazing performance by the two of them. Driver, in particular, I think, gets to do stuff that most actors don't get to do, and he has a combo. It's just like what you liked about him in Girls. It's just like what you like about him in playing Kylo Ren. It's like, he is extraordinarily physical and big and strange and also very subtle and quiet and can kill you

with a with a blink and he's such a such a amazing actor i it sounds silly to be so praiseworthy of somebody but he really is so gifted you just don't know what he is going to do to such an extent that it feels like he's doing it he's just a real person doing it in real time this is in the trailer so it's not spoiling it so when the nicole character says it's your turn and he kind of crosses his legs and almost like starts laughing before he's like i don't i don't know how to start but that's's just... Who can relate? You can totally relate, but in like a thousand out of a... 999 out of a thousand actors, I don't know why I picked a thousand, just because I really wanted to make this point, that would not do that.

They would do something that would signal to you that it's about to get real and that we're about to unleash something really intense. Because I think they would also have some of the fear that I was just talking about of you don't really want to go there in a fight. But he just, he knows exactly what to do. It's extraordinary. I also, Scarlett Johansson really holds her own in that one.

And I kind of remember towards the end, just this look of honestly not even hurt, just kind of disbelief. Like again, what's happening and why are we finally saying all these things to each other? That's really pretty upsetting. I didn't mean to say that it wasn't excellent or upsetting. I just everyone was just kind of like, you can't see this. If you watch this and you're married, then your whole world will come tumbling down i'm like

yeah it's okay it's just it's part of the confines of being in a relationship let's talk about one other scene if you don't want this scene which happens near the end of the film spoiled for you i would suggest you fast forward maybe two to three minutes i would be remiss if we didn't talk about adam driver singing steven sonnheim's Alive from the musical Company. Someone you have to let in Someone whose feelings you spare Someone who, like it or not, will want you to share a little, a lot A fascinating choice for a couple of reasons.

I'm going to just give you a little bit of recent company history. So obviously this year on Documentary Now, there was an episode that parodied the making of the company cast album, which is a documentary that was made in the late 70s that portrays Stephen Sondheim recording with the original Broadway cast of the show. It's a very sort of famously weird documentary that features people kind of acting their worst. The documentary now episode is very funny. John Mulaney plays Sondheim. Also, as I was rewatching Lady Bird, I realized that the first kid who auditions before Lady Bird comes out to sing another Stephen Sondheim song called Everybody Says Don't,

sings Being Alive. Really? And Being Alive, if you like Stephen Sondheim, is one of the greatest songs he's ever written. I think Company is good. It's not one of my favorite of his shows, but it's such a beautiful and weird song. And it's a song that if you hear it on the cast album, or if you see a company performed somehow, it's a song with a Greek chorus. But the movie performance that Driver does, which is essentially in a cabaret bar,

I forget what bar is it. Is it, it's like a piano bar downtown. I thought it was Marie's Crisis, but that's because that's the only piano bar downtown I know. I don't think that's what it is.

I can't, I'm sure someone will tell us what it is. Anyhow, after he's gone through all of this catharsis and after he has sort of returned to his theater company

and they have one last drink, he sings this song. And Adam Driver's not, he's not Nathan Lane. He's not the greatest Broadway ham of all time. But the song doesn't have the Greek chorus. It just has the character singing the song. And it's such a crushing song. It's such an amazing performance. The camera moves very subtly throughout the whole performance. You know, it's like it's on a dolly i guess and kind of sliding around and

following him and on the one hand it's very vulnerable very beautiful and on the other hand it's the kind of like self-important uh sort of acknowledgement that is holds this character back you know it's a sort of like, look at me kind of thing that an artistic person would do. And it's just a very, it's a very subtle like compliment to and retraction of what makes Charlie such an interesting character.

The way Driver does it is also so masterful. He's kind of back and forth from the piano for a while. It starts and it's that karaoke, oh, it's my song and it's very casual and then he goes to back to get his wine or something and it's basically like he's talking and I wasn't sure whether he was going to perform the whole song or whether other people were going to jump in and then it's suddenly the camera just he he's suddenly in one place and the camera starts closing in on him. And you can kind of watch the realization of what he's singing and how it affects the character kind of click on in his head.

I mean, extraordinary. Yeah, and I can't tell if that is the Oscar reel moment or not, or if it's the fight or what. I was thinking about that a bit, even in watching the movie, which self-consciously, it also does feel like a movie where everyone's like, we're going for it. Reward us because this isn't a true and unvarnished portrayal of something that is difficult in life. And I don't know, do you think that we'll see that clip at the Oscars? Well, if they can do sound possibly, though, you know, I also honestly think it could be the very last scene in the bedroom with, I'm sorry, what's the kid's name? Henry. I even forgot the kid's name. That's a little, poor Henry. No, Henry's going to be fine.

That's what's nice about the movie. You know, Henry's going to be fine with Henry and with Driver kind of doing matter of fact until it all falls apart um because that movie also that i mean that has the whole movie right in that one one shot it does but what it also has the whole movie in these lyrics make me confused mock me with praise let me be used vary my days that is like the sum total sure it stuff. It'd just be really weird in the middle of the Oscar ceremony for him just kind of singing Sondheim in a vulnerable, almost acapella voice. Do you think that they could get Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga to perform it? That'd be great.

I think that would be exciting. I'd love to see them do the fight. Let's talk about Boundback a little bit more. Okay. Adam Neiman wrote about him on The Ringer this week. He ranked his movies. I didn't agree with his ranking, but I thought he wrote beautifully about Bound Back. Oh, interesting.

And I thought a lot of Meyerowitz stories as I watched this movie, especially the way that adults deal with the choices that they've made. And when something is out of your control, especially, you know, that Meyerowitz story is much more about death and health and parents. And this is much more about marriage and children. But there are stages of life movies, you know, and they feel very purposeful. I think this is a kind of a more accomplished movie than Meyerowitz stories, though I think I might like Meyerowitz stories more, if that makes sense. It's a little little sweeter it's a little funnier yeah a little weirder marriage story is not as weird as some of Baumbach's movies no um you wrote down Greenberg here I was thinking a lot about it in terms of the LA-ness and it's an LA New York movie it is an LA New York movie and we haven't really talked about that but the Nicole character moves to LA and so the Charlie character is coming back

and forth from LA and probably a good probably 60 to 70 percent of the movie is set in LA yes and Charlie's very conscious about that and keeps making references to like I'm directing a play on Broadway I have to get back and also just everyone keeps telling him about the space and he hates the space. And so as someone who lived, you know, lived in New York for most of her adult life and has since relocated to LA and relates to how Noah Baumbach's feeling about all of it, I was aware of the LA-ness. And Greenberg seems like a foundational text for a lot of the things that are going on here from the character not understanding L.A. and being adrift and trying to get his life together to the houses just being pretty much exactly the same. And, you know, this is a character who doesn't want to move to L.A. for his marriage because his work is elsewhere. And Greenberg, I think, was made by a director who spent time in L.A.,

possibly because of instances in his life. I'm not really sure. It seems relevant. Almost against his will. L.A. is kind of against his will. Yeah. And if you are thinking of the main characters as not even really stand-ins but like you said baumbach uses autobiography throughout his life and greenberg is definitely

um that acerbic and unpleasant part of the part of all of his early characters. And it's interesting to watch that in concert with Charlie, who has his problems for sure, but is working through stuff. Yeah, Greenberg introduces Greta Gerwig into the Noah Baumbach film universe. And all the films that he makes after that, I think, have a slightly different taste for life. You know, if you look at Francis Ha, Mistress America, while we're young, Meyerowitz, and this film, they still have venom, but it's not the same. They're not grouchy.

You know, his movies before that could be a little grouchy. You know, the squid and the whale is caustic. And Margot at the Wedding is tough. That's a mean movie full of characters that hate each other. He doesn't really make movies like that anymore. It's interesting. Part of that, I'm sure, is aging. Part of that is you go through the stages of life. You figure out you want to write different kinds of characters. But Greenberg is kind of the last

time you get a character who is so purposefully angry at the world. And it's interesting. I mean, that's never been really one of my favorites, but it is a really good L.A. movie. A little bit of like, here's a problem with L.A. kind of a movie. Yeah. I wouldn't say it's my favorite either. It is bizarre to watch it now since he's gone through the second half of his career transformation.

But I do think at least the L.A.-ness of it sets up Marriage Story very well. So personal rankings for Boundback. How would you align them? Cause you, you've always, I've always known you to be a huge kicking and screaming fan. Yeah. I think it's probably number three for me. Okay. Um, I'm pretty close to name it. I'm kicking and screaming at three.

I've only seen Mirror Story once, so I'll put it at number two right now, but it's that high for me. Okay. And Francis Ha is number one for me. So Francis Ha is definitely number one for me. And wonder it's not it's the least like these movies yeah it's certainly the most like experiences that I think you and I had yes and I think you and I don't want to have experiences like Marriage Story no and Squid and the Whale I'm sure we see some of ourselves in our lives in but it even that has a kind of a tenor that is far away from us

it's funny to be measuring yourself, your appreciation for a movie against how much you identify with it. Well, but that's what these films have meant for me. And I think maybe why Francis Ha is both our number one is because that it's the character that our stand in is like finally getting happiness. And finally, there's a romance. And, you know, I think Frances Ha, Greta Gerwig is magical. I love, I think it's a great New York movie. It's the movie I watch when I'm like homesick. But it is also definitely a movie where you can tell,

it's about Noah Baumbach falling in love with Greta Gerwig. You can feel that in the way it's written and filmed. And who doesn't want to be a part of that? I mean, I don't need to be a part of their actual relationship, but that really magical feeling. I think so much of the scene of Greta Gerwig just pirouetting down the street to modern love, which is basically the the cinematic image of like falling in love in my head for whatever reason. It helps that I was dating my husband, started dating my husband around the same time. Yeah.

It's also, it's a, it's a, here's what's good about New York movie in a way. I would say Marriage Story is not a here's what's good about LA movie. It's not a here's what's bad about LA movie per se, but it is holding a grudge and Francis Ha's love letter. It's a love letter to many different things. I guess Frances Ha has one. I don't know. I loved Mistress America when I saw it too. I know you and my husband both really love it. And I, that, that would be low on my list. It's, it's a bit kooky. I think while we're young and Mistress America are his kooky phase, that whole sequence at the end of Mistress America where they go to Connecticut is like really strange.

It's so weird. It's sort of Preston Sturges-y and Billy Wilder-ish. And I like when he goes into those places. But I probably prefer it most when it's, you know, Kicking and Screaming is about a guy who thinks he's really, really smart. Has graduated from college and has no idea what he's doing. His only connection with his father is about the Knicks. Like, you know, loves his friends

but thinks they're morons. Like, that's autobiography. It's an amazingly resonant movie. But I don't know, as time goes on, you're marking time with his movies. We're lucky that we got to have that. I mean, the one thing you didn't mention in Kicking and Screaming

is also about a guy who screwed up a good relationship and doesn't really understand why. And I think you can put Grover next to Charlie, which is pretty fascinating because that was screen here is almost identical to the one in other bound back movies and yet parts of the film feel Real in a way that he's only rarely approached It's a testament to the actors as well as the inherent emotional potency of the material. That's him on marriage story, which is I wonder if this signals like a new phase for him when I was chatting with him I was like are you working on anything like what are you what's going on? Because last time I saw him, he had been writing

Marriage Story. He was telling me about it. He was like, I'm not writing anything. I was like, does that mean that you're happy? Does that mean you don't have to resolve anything? He was like, well, you know, and he kind of demurred. I think that sometimes these movies work so well because it feels like someone

actively working through a feeling that is difficult for people to put their finger on when they're going through their regular life. So we've talked about our rankings. We've talked about the big scenes. We've talked about what's good about this movie. I want to ask you why all these movies this year are auto-fictional. Yeah, but when are they not? This year in particular is so pronounced.

It is true. It is pronounced. And there is just an admission, which I admire in a way that people are just kind of putting the name on it and or putting the words autofiction in their film, which respect. I appreciate self-awareness and it does add a level to it. But, you know, people are writing about themselves. People have been writing about themselves and their experiences since we were writing down pieces of paper. All novels are about the novelist. All music is about the musician in one way or another.

Yeah. That's why I love Thanos so much. I am inevitable. Thanos is just calling. He has his truth. That's why it's not cinema! Marty and I told you. I don't know if we can have that conversation right now. No, but I think as to why people are being so forthcoming about it,

I mean, there's a cynical answer, which is that it's good branding and that a confessional story has always had value, but certainly in this era where people just want to feel like they're getting your most authentic, honest, that's the way to get someone's attention. Yes, I think sometimes it's so frequently coded. Like, I have no doubt that Phantom Thread is autobiographical in its way. The poison-me-daddy aspect of Phantom Thread.

Like, I get that. I don't think it's even going too far to say that the psychosexual relationship in marriages is interesting, but it's done through the eyes of a mid-century courtier. You know, it's not about regular people having their real lives on screen. You know, Pain and Glory, Amor Var's movie, it's just about him. It's not even trying to hide it's movie, is just about him. It's not even trying

to hide it. It's just clearly about him. Marriage Story may be a little bit less so, but the similarities are overwhelming. And he's also always worked in that medium of using the exact time and place and what people were wearing. I mean, Jeff Daniels is wearing his father's clothing in The Squid and the Whale. Yes, exactly. So I think some of it is just that it's another Noah Baumbach movie for this particular one. This year, I don't know. It is also a little bit, I guess, as people get older, perhaps you have more to reflect on and you're a little bit more willing to put something out there. You get, maybe you don't get wiser, but you have a little more distance from aspects of your life. And possibly you're not as like angry or hard on yourself as you are when you're 20 something.

I think that's certainly true in Baumbach's work. But for most people, you ease up a little bit as you get older, hopefully. One other thing about that. This is the first Baumb back movie that i feel like has transcended woody allen interesting i was thinking about this for me i've always been a bound back instead of woody allen which is really crazy i know but maybe it's a little bit of when i came to it and i find woody allen cerebral and i find boundach actually if anything like working too much from emotion yeah and trying to deal with like really really intense feelings that he would really prefer not to express in any earnest way so they got to come out in all of these really and tortured ways. Definitely don't relate to that at all. So for me,

it's, yes, I agree, but I don't know. I've always preferred Baumbach. I might prefer him too. I just think that there's a weight of influence. Of course.

Even if you're right that there's way more auto-fiction in Baumbach's movies, but the approach and the way the characters are written and the way that they communicate in the movies. Like you could not. These movies would not exist without Woody Allen. Like he invented a kind of New York archetype that, you know, Whit Stillman obviously followed in the footsteps of. And Noah followed in the footsteps of.

And even like the Spike Lee's of the world followed in the footsteps of. And even like the Spike Lee's of the world followed in the footsteps of. There's a kind of East Coast character that is inextricable from these movies. But this one, I guess Hannah and Her Sisters is probably the closest Woody Allen movie. And we're not supposed to talk about Woody Allen movies anymore, but they're such a part of my film education,

such a, like, so significant to me. Hannah and Her Sisters, most people at this point, I think, tend to think that aside from Annie Hall in Manhattan that's like his best film. Yes.

The best non-Woody appearing film. This feels close to that but even this is bigger and deeper and more straightforward. You know it's not shading feelings

in character descriptions. It's actually putting the feelings on the page in a big way. You've added a very particular final section to this episode. Well, a lot of people asked about this, and there were also, apparently, were reports of, like, married couples watching, walking out of screenings of Marriage Story. So what I added was, can you see this movie with your spouse?

And I will tell you, I saw this movie with my spouse. I saw it sitting next to my husband. And it was in a room full of strangers. It was a screening. But it was kind of a slightly, it wasn't just like a movie theater. It was in a different space. And I was just very aware of all the people around me while also being very aware of my husband sitting next to me watching this story of divorce. And we survived it. And it was actually very sweet. I definitely started crying basically during the Sondheim number and didn't start, didn't stop.

And it was one of those things where I really, it was probably visible that I was crying and I didn't want people to see it. So I'm like trying to hide, but also try not to look at my husband because that'll just make me like start crying more. I'm just like, I really got to shut this down. God bless my husband who just grabbed my hand and then held my hand through the last scene of it. And we walked out and like had a nice dinner and we were okay. So it's possible, but you're going to have to be emotionally aware of your spouse and you got to be prepared for some real feelings. Yeah, it's got to be movie first, then dinner. And at the dinner, brace yourself for what's to come

because you'll inevitably find yourself having conversations that are more raw than the ones you normally would have about how your day was or what's going on at work. Yes. That's powerful. Most movies can't do that.

We've only had that kind of feeling about a couple of movies this year. Right. And a movie like Parasite gets you thinking about the world and society. Yeah. This movie gets you thinking about yourself and your partner. Absolutely. That's real power.

And it really works. But I will say, as long as you know that there are going to be some intense moments, you may even walk out feeling excited about the idea of marriage. Maybe just maybe. Maybe not. I think that's totally possible. I'm really excited about the idea of marriage right now after this entire podcast. Amanda, thank you for revealing yourself. As always. As always.

And now hopefully Noah Baumbach will reveal himself to me. Let's go to my conversation with him right now. Delighted to be joined by Noah Baumbach. Noah, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. Noah, you have a new film called Marriage Story. This movie is about divorce and not marriage, though marriage in some respects. i'm wondering if you always knew that you were going to tell a tale from

the perspective of an adult experiencing this as opposed to a child always meaning for this movie in particular uh well i did tell the child's perspective in squid and the whale uh or at least predominantly the child's perspective in that movie. Yeah, I think it's something I've wanted probably to different degrees of consciousness that these narratives form themselves in retrospect where you're like, well, I always knew I was going to come back to this time.

I don't know that I knew it then, but it was intriguing to me to come to it from the adult perspective. But I think it's one of these movies that I couldn't, even though I've been taking notes for years, I don't think I, until I started writing it, I wasn't ready to write it, if that makes sense. Did you find yourself reevaluating experiences you had as a kid and the way you saw certain things that you had while working on this movie yeah i i think something that actually i discovered in working on it that that it was in a sense another look at my parents divorce um not so much of the autobiographical details of of their lives are not in in in this movie but but it was a kind of a new way of understanding that time when did you start writing it well it's a difficult it's always difficult to answer that because it part of part of it is being

written you know while i'm making other movies even you know i'm making i'm taking notes i'm uh conversations i've even had with adam driver that about things that found their way into this movie but i wouldn't have known it was this movie at that time so i i started writing it in earnest i think think, sometime in post on Meyerowitz. I started actually sitting down to write it. What does that look like in terms of the various ideas you might have and the notes you're keeping? Is it an organized series of documents? Is it just journal?

How does that take shape? And then how do you decide, actually, this one? It's not as organized as it should be at this point it's it's it's also a combination of like there are notebooks that i always have going that have often have the same ideas rewritten throughout them like i keep trying i keep coming back to them thinking their new ideas and then only to realize it's it's a little bit like the shining like it's you know all work and no play over and over i i but um but it is a way to kind of work through like something that's intriguing me something that that that that is compelling to me and that feels like a movie to me but i don't yet know what it is so i keep kind of writing it down. And then that's often combined with, I'll start a document on the computer, which I'll do in final draft, but I won't write it like a screenplay. I'll

just take notes. And every so often I'll copy wholesale things down from the notebook. And then I often have, I also have a little notebook, which is then in like jacket pockets and things that I carry around. So then that one also has to get transcribed. Inevitably, I don't get all of it. And I rely on the fact that I hopefully am coming back around to these ideas and repeating things. But I will find, I found notebooks actually after I've made movies and thought like, oh, right. That one, I guess I never got, I never made it in. What goes into

the little notebook is that just things you overhear people say like what are you yeah it's all it's all of it it's it's uh yeah sometimes it's things i i hear people say or something that happens you know in a thing i'll that i'll um try not to blatantly write down in front of the people at that very moment. But sometimes it's also just, you know, I'm walking in New York and I'll just have an idea or something will form that suddenly seems clear to me that didn't seem clear before. Which, of course, inevitably you open up the notebook later and look at it and it doesn't seem clear again. But it was at that moment. Yeah, it's kind of all of it. Do you see the films on a continuum of life experiences? And like, are you strategic about that? Do you say, I've always wanted to make a film about turn my forties. I've always wanted to make a film about this phase of life. No, I don't see it that way.

I, I, but I do see human experiences as fodder for movies. And there are things that stay with me like Meyerowitz, the having spent time in a hospital um with a sick relative you know years before I wrote the script that was something that I thought well I this there's that's that's that's interesting to me for a movie it's those kinds of things sometimes hang around for a while and they're kind of bigger subjects in a way and then other things are behavior little things or you know you like you're saying like things

overheard sometimes you know they strike you because they might be funny or or bizarre or whatever but when suddenly when you put them in the mouth of a character it gives you character and it suddenly turns into something else is it catharsis that comes from putting, say the experience of the hospital that you had, or is it more just a creative expression? It's probably too slow a process to fully feel like catharsis. Sure. You know,

Mike Nichols, who I got to be friends with, said to me when I first met him, which was after Squid and the Whale, he said, the movie reminded me of why I got into the movie business, which was revenge. And he had a way of really always just saying it right. But sometimes I think there is that sense of revenge. And I don't mean revenge in any kind of like getting revenge on a person, but almost like making sense of pain and, you know, a difficult time that there is a way of, you know, an aspect of getting back at it. The same way with Squid in some ways is it was getting back at childhood. You know, now that I, you know, as a child, I was powerless. I didn't have that, this voice that I have now. And now I can go and speak for that, for that child.

Was it always Adam when you started writing? Yes. Was that a conversation that you had had and said i'm going to be working on this i need this to be you yeah well we we have a kind of it's almost like just an open thing it's like we're always talking about ideas for movies that we might want to do and and and they're not dissimilar to the to the notes that i that that might take in the book and that they they don't always necessarily have a place. You know, sometimes it's even a haircut he's interested in or a fit of clothing or a movie one of us has seen or a book one of us has read or something that's happened in our lives that we bring to each other and we kind of have it there as a thing.

You know, I, this was something I've been thinking about for a while and, you know, talk to him to the degree that I knew what it was. I, I talked to him about it and, and when I felt like, okay, I feel like this might be the next thing I'm doing. Then we talked much more concretely about it. His roles in your other films are very different from this one he's not quite comic relief but he has like a much breezier tone in his character in this movie did you guys have a conversation about saying i want you to do something that is not hyper serious necessarily but is it plays a different kind of instrument for him no i I, it's all informed by the character. So it was, if I have a character or character or, um, something that I'm thinking about him for, I'm not, I'm not thinking about it in relation to what we've done before.

Particularly. It's, it's more like how, you know, how, how, how will you be this person for this thing? When did Scarlet come into the equation? Early. Uh, it was also, she was the only person adam and i had talked about we were sort of thinking about who who nicole might be um uh and again nicole at that point wasn't even really written it was just ideas and notes and maybe some dialogue um and i had known her a little bit uh over the the years and we had talked sort of generally about doing something at some time.

And so I wrote her and said, you know, I think I might have something for us to do together. And we met for lunch and she immediately told me she was getting a divorce. So that was, that's how that began. But to her credit, it was, it was the reason to do the movie. Right.

Was, was the purpose initially always to be even handed 50, 50 on the telling of the story. You always saw it as a kind of a dichotomy between the two. Yes. And, and early on, I came up also with the,

with the notion that we would spend more time with her early on, and then we would move over to him a bit. What was the thinking behind that? I felt that the movie among many things, I felt that the movie was also about perspective um and i thought i felt that there was a way and robbie ryan who shot the movie with me and we we designed this very specifically this sort of notion of perspective without ever calling attention to it because it was never going to be i wasn't interested in like a he said she said or you know something where it's you know alternate

realities or anything like that but i did feel like there was a way that we could kind of gently show her side and his side separately uh so that when they the last sort of the movie or third or so shot very much from both of their perspectives so that the audience could have could kind of come to it honestly that because it's natural in a movie if you're following a character to feel take their side to feel you know be be with them i mean hitchcock has a thing about you know like if you're with a burglar breaking into a you know family's home and they're trying to find where the jewels are and then the family comes home and the burglar has to get out you're nervous for the burglar you know you're it's your it's because it's all about

perspective you know i think it's it's natural that when we're with scarlet in the beginning of the movie and and we're telling nicole's she's wakes up in her childhood home she's uh doing her tv show she's goes to see nora that you know and she tells her story that we'd be sympathetic to that and feel if not her side at least we feel we're in her world and that when adam returns to the movie and we kind of move over to his perspective so that when he's going through his day and even when she reappears we're always over his shoulder now so she's almost like a character in his day um even though we've also been with her for a big portion of the movie already um and then when we're in the the mediation is when it shifts, when they're in Nora's conference room and Bert is representing Adam at that point.

And we kind of bring you into it. It starts on close-ups of both of them, and we hear the lawyers' voices, almost as if it's like internal monologue or something like that. Or they're talking to each other, but of course it's lawyers talking. They're saying nothing. But then we start going over both their shoulders to each other but of course it's lawyers talking it's not they're saying nothing um but then we start going over both their shoulders to each other and at that point we stay over both their shoulders even when the lawyers are talking to each other even when we open up the room so now it's always their experience and it may it stays that way uh it's that way in the courtroom it's that that they are now sharing it equally and i felt that it was a way for the audience to arrive at arrive at the

place of of of you know they're both equally worth worthy of our sympathy our our empathy everything's true and nothing's true uh they're doing the best they can um and but i like i said i feel like maybe they come to it honestly, in a way, having had the experience of potentially taking a side earlier on. I noticed a couple of things. And if this is a misread, please tell me. Sure. But I feel like Laura Dern's character and really Oda's character to a lesser extent, Alan's character are kind of the, not just the monologue, but the id for the characters. They're saying things that in your worst moment you might say out loud, but don't necessarily

represent exactly how they feel in the moment. And also that you've created essentially like three big set pieces, one for Scarlet, one for Adam and one of them together. I don't know. Do you think sort of systematically when you're writing that you're going to need to have beats like that or conceptualizing the movie or are you just writing into character and arriving at the story that you want to tell it's a little of all of that i i mean earlier stages of writing i'm trying to just go with what's interesting to me or what feels like the story you know what or what feels like

the character um but as of course later in the process i'm shaping it and thinking about those things i mean a big discovery for me when i was writing i would say the the big the basically i would say that the the time between like the first draft and the second draft were the most got done in a way or i mean besides the the actual writing of the script but the most sort of shape that I found was that I realized that inherent in this story and inherent in any divorce process is, on one hand, the divorce is all-encompassing. It takes over their lives and it consumes them in a way, as you're saying, the the lawyers are in a sense i

felt like actually yeah take their voices away from them of course life doesn't know that or care and uh and you still have to do all the same things you have to do throughout the day and get divorced and you're still married while you're getting divorced. So that everything narratively was, I felt like if I stay within the divorce narrative, all the other stuff will be naturally a part of that at the same time. So scenes that I wrote that maybe took the characters more outside of it, there was stuff with friends of theirs, there was other sort of sequences taking

the kid to school all of that had I found had no place in this story because it even there were scenes that I liked and there were scenes but it didn't it didn't tell that story and so is there a three-hour cut of this movie somewhere no this, this was in the script stage. I had cut, I cut those things early on because all that stuff would happen anyway. You still have to order lunch. You know, you, you still need your haircut. If your gate doesn't close, you got to close your gate. You know, all those things that are just part of our, our, our everyday life. And of course the, the opening sequences, the montages about them is that as well.

It's all the little things from our day that often go by unnoticed. So it's sort of related to that. If you are making something that is so immensely personal as your job, then how do you engage with your personal life at the same time? Like, is there a lot of collision between those two things? It's pretty compartmentalized. I mean, it's, it's, uh, more, it's much easier to compartmentalize that than I think going through a divorce and living your life. Uh, you're not getting checks um uh but of course there's there's engagement sometimes you find yourself kind of working stuff out you know in social situations talking to people you know i also did a lot of research for this movie so and and a lot of the

research i did with friends of mine who had because i've known so many people who've gone through divorces. I heard you say that. So what do you say to someone when you say, I'm, I'm writing something about this, I'd like to hear about your experiences and I maybe I'll put it in the movie. Is that, is that on the table? Well, I mean, it's, it's inherently on the table because it's, if they're agreeing to do it, but I, but I'm, I would never put something in that people were uncomfortable with. I really, it was about, again again about point of view i think and hearing it was interesting to hear both women and men from the same divorce hear what they said and how they reflected on things um you didn't you didn't back channel though you didn't say well no this other partner no i had to be i wanted to be

respectful of that and also of course i would check with both of them that they were okay because in some cases people weren't okay with that i would talk to one person and they said i really don't want rather you're not which i totally understand um is this a formal process or is it just this is you're in my life can you just can we get coffee and talk well people closer friends i you know i i would it was less formal but it was i wasn't saying they knew why i was taught i presented it as an interview um some people then we some there were even some friends of friends and some people i didn't know so with with with them i was very clear about what it was and and and then also when i talked to lawyers and judges and things too that that was all i i would even in some cases bring them hypothetical stuff

that i felt might happen in the script or stuff that had come up in other things but the truth is that once the way it all finds its way into the movie it's hidden it's it's not i don't i don't i i i would be surprised if anybody felt like, oh, that thing I said, often I find when people say that thing I said is in the movie or that thing I did is in the movie. I, I not sure they're right, but, but, you know, there's, there's, there's recognition, I guess, sometimes, you know, that, you know, whether it really happened or not. I noticed that, you know, you reconvened, you mentioned Robbie and Jennifer and Randy are all working on this movie. They all worked on Meyerowitz. And I really feel like these two movies are in dialogue with each other about

adulthood in a lot of ways. And not just cause they're, they're both Netflix productions, I guess. Did you see them as part of a... Do you see your movies as part of paired up in certain ways or in connection to each other? Not particularly. Sometimes, in retrospect, people will look at them that way and posit that.

But I don't really think of them that way um i think i know what you're saying i mean i think in in what they at least share in a kind of in a certain way is that there's there's a kind of being in a hospital and and you know dealing with illness and and dealing with the end of marriage death of of one thing, death of another. Yeah, there are two kinds of deaths, or at least potential deaths. And you're inviting all these strangers, these professionals, not just strangers, but professionals into your life. And how do you maintain your humanity in that situation?

And hopefully find more humanity. you know how do you maintain your humanity in that situation and how do you and and hopefully find more you know humanity uh when when it's a system often designed to do the opposite this might seem impossible to answer but the other thing i feel like it has in common is um the tone which shifts pretty seamlessly through genre it's's light drama. It's comedy. Sometimes it's heavy drama. It's musical. It's horrifying. It's all of these things. And Meyerowitz, I think, is sort of similar. It's a little bit lighter, but that seems hard. It seems hard to do to kind of shift through those things. How much conversation are you having with the actors about what kind of a sequence it is and how they're playing it when you're making the movie i find i mean mostly it's and the actors i mean particularly this group of actors and and in

meyerwitz their their their approach is truthful you know or at least that's what everyone is going for and being sort of in the moment of every scene, which I think I find when I'm directing them is important because it does allow for these things to exist side by side. I'll see it in auditions sometimes with actors who are wonderful, but they'll play a scene either very seriously or they'll play it kind of comically and suddenly it doesn't play uh the scene i mean it's always a challenge when you use scenes from the movie you're going to shoot in auditions often i'll actually come up with fake scenes uh to avoid this but sometimes you know i'll use a real scene from the movie and suddenly I don't like the scene because it seems like

too silly or it feels like... Is it common to rewrite after you rehearse? No, because then when the person comes in and gets it, I'm like, there it is. Then I know... I mean, it doesn't mean I won't rewrite, but it's really about, you know,

finding the right actor for the right part. And, uh, and I can guide them in these ways, but it, it, it's, you know, there are, there are lines sometimes I'm even aware of that I've written that feel like comic lines in a sense, like, you know, Bert says to, uh, to Charlie, you sense like you know burt says to uh to charlie you know when they go to the sidebars as you know they're talking and he's like if i were representing you um and charlie's like you are representing me and i you know that's a line i am aware is a funny line but you know the way alan does it is heartbreaking. It's like, in the material allow allowed, particularly in this movie Meyerowitz too,

but particularly in this one for these things to live side by side. And, and, and so part of what I'm doing when we're shooting, it is both allowing for them to all exist, but sometimes at certain moments just kind of maybe pressing down a little bit more on one you know and you know and and or or less on one you know it's like you know just just finding the right tone and it's something jen lame who uh cuts the movies with me

and i are aware of always but and this is true of all my movies. I never feel like, Oh, I'm writing comedy to lighten a serious situation, or I need to now get serious because things have gotten too funny. I think I'm drawn to situations and behavior that, that allow for that to, to kind of exist simultaneously.

I feel like the only two films that people mentioned when they talk about divorce are Kramer versus Kramer and squid in the whale. There are other movies that are about it, but not very many, even though it is such an, a staggeringly common occurrence in human life. Yeah. What do you,

what, what do you account of that? Why is that the case? Shoot the moon is another good one, but, but, but not, not well known.

I mean, unfortunately I, I don't know. Lucky for me. It makes the film feel novel in a way. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

I mean, I can, I could guess that in this, this goes to the hospital Meyerowitz too. I think there are aspects of it that for people who've gone through it that once they're it's over they don't want to revisit because it feels you know because i think it brings up feelings certainly it's painful it brings up feelings of failure resentment anger, anger. I mean, all the things that we know from the poor movies that have been made, no, but, but we, you know, that we, that we hear, that we hear, um,

or have experienced and the hospitals I find actually not dissimilar in that you, it's like, you know, if, if you're, if you're in that world, it, it is also all encompassing and you're, as they are in Meyerowitz, you're navigating which nurse is on and who who know who knows more and oh no it's now it's this person where what happened to Pam that was a thing Meyerowitz uh that's the realest thing I've ever seen is the relationship you build with the stranger who's in the hospital room with you yes yes and where's the doctor and why aren't they here and and then once you once you're out, none of those, none of nothing you've learned there is helpful in the regular life and,

and, and your, and your everyday life. And, and so in a sense, you don't want to think about it again. And I don't know, maybe that goes into it.

I mean, that was, it was important for me in, in this movie to put all the things, those things in it though, that would normally might be advised to cut out i mean like show like have every lawyer tell you what they're going to cost and you know and then show charlie writing a check um have you know the ordering of

lunch or something in the middle of the mediation or that that that all of that was the story because it it's both you know outrageous and and dramatic and also banal in its you know again the lawyers are professionals they're they're just they're just doing their jobs they're talking about the benefit they're going to go to the john legends reforming ad and you know it's like they they're're going to go to the John legends reforming ad. And, you know, it's like they, they are all going to go home and, uh, and,

and the secret, the secret friendship between the lawyers who are frequently opposed to one another is also such a persistent thing, you know, that's in every way. Of course. Um, uh,

yes. And Meyerowitz to, to, to what you were saying, Meyerowitz says like the, the doctor going on vacation, you know, it's like they have lives.

And everything is, your entire life feels at stake in that moment. And for them, this is their day at work. If you could program a double feature with this movie, with Marriage Story, what would you program it with? I actually did uh so uh at the metrograph because in new york is doing showing my movies and i i picked a companion piece for each movie oh and and we're going to show marriage story at the end um uh et oh wow another good divorce movie truly yeah see but maybe a little closer to the squid and the whale in terms of perspective right and experience the kids perspective um i'm always curious with you if you see yourself making films that are bigger than the films that you make because you have this very coherent body of work and it shifts in tones

shifts in star power or whatever but size wise the human approach to the filmmaking is there any desire for you to say i want 50 million dollars and i want a grander scale i thought of this mostly because and i don't i'm not going to spoil the end of the movie but the um musical aspect of the thing i was wondering if you had an aspiration to do something a little bit more grand in that way i don't think of it like that i mean i think these i do see the things i'm working with are are the biggest things in our lives um they just don't require as much money to put on screen um you know i i with with this movie too i was fortunate to have money to take the time that i needed i mean that's

for me is so much of it is having time, is finding, you know, rehearsal time, enough time to shoot these scenes in ways that I can explore them as thoroughly as I want to, that the actors feel like they've tried everything. You know, I want them all to feel, you know, feel, I mean, Adam never fully will ever feel that way. He's still talking about things he'd like to do differently, like, you know,

and while we're young, um, uh, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, I mean, this is, I'm making, I'm doing, uh, exactly what I always dreamed I'd be doing and when, and, and, and, and the, and the movies that are, uh, that, and the stories that I'm, that are, that come from me and that I'm drawn to. If I had an idea for a musical or something, of course I would want the budget that would make that possible. But I guess I don't look at it that way.

I feel like I'm, I'm doing what I would hope to do. This also may be a bit odd to answer, but I know that you're a student of film history, made the De Palma documentary. You would sense that there is an arc to a filmmaker's career. This is, this is a no bound back moment right now people love the movie it's probably the best reviews you've ever gotten it's a very noisy kind of movie is it meaningful for you to have that is it is being in the awards conversation something that excites you it's it's very gratifying um you know we started in in venice

in the end of august so i've i've and i've gotten to travel with the movie and and talk to people it's very gratifying the reactions um and and actually easier to talk about than my past movies in a way that I wouldn't have guessed because people are bringing so much of themselves to the movie. So it becomes a kind of human dialogue in a way that is, because it's very hard to talk about a movie that you've just made, even though that's what you have to do every time, unfortunately. I mean, when to talk about a movie that you've just made you know um even though that's what you have to do every time unfortunately i mean it's it's uh when i talk about a movie i made 10 years ago it's easier because even though i actually haven't seen it often i haven't seen

it since then but at least i can kind of talk you know in a more kind of clear-headed way about it um but this one because it becomes about experience and often even other people's experiences i find it i do find it very gratifying and it's it's uh uh you know to to sort of contribute to that kind of you know conversation i feel like you're gonna have a lot of people telling you about their pain for a long period of time though that seems like a difficult burden to carry well there's definitely that that there are people who identify with the divorce aspect of it but what i it's also great is hearing people have been married for 30 years 40 years coming and talking about that because they recognize just marriage um and and relationships

and you know the fact that the one in the movie doesn't work out is almost doesn't affect you know their identification with it have you started writing something no i i uh this is the first time in a while that i actually am feel depleted i think i i have i've had i generally you know probably when we talked about talked about meyerwitz i this was already sort of yeah yeah yeah it was was already in some stage i don't remember exactly where um and that's always been the case there's always something that seems to be kind of take hold behind each movie. And this is the first time that that's,

I don't have the thing. I mean, I have always have notes and things of, for, for an ideas and Adam and I continue to have our conversations. Do the ideas come from, well, I don't,

I'm not going to psychoanalyze you, but do the ideas come from well i don't i'm not going to psychoanalyze you but do the ideas come from go ahead and psychoanalyze me no uh i need that myself um things that you feel like you need to resolve things that are unexamined in your life that you need to process um in the you mean in the in the writing yeah Yeah. No, not deliberately. I'm sure... I'm aware that those things are going to come in no matter what. I mean, anytime I'm writing from starting the blank page in writing, there's going to be all those things are going to make their way in and, and it's, there are things in the movies that, that I've become aware of later or,

or I'm, uh, you know, or, or I'll be on set and an actor will play a scene a certain way and I'll actually realize, Oh, maybe that's what I was getting at.

I mean, there's, there's things that are always interesting to me, like in, in, in squid when, um, Jesse's character uh walt is leaving at the end in the hospital i remember somebody pointed out to me this is at some point after the movie was out that he does he says the man in that room needs a pillow or something like that and he doesn't say my dad

and that there's a separation inherent in the way he says the thing and when they said it i started to cry because i i actually didn't realize that i mean i knew it obviously on some level i wrote it but i didn't it wasn't a conscious decision to to do that and you know you hope there are a lot of those in the movie, you know, that, that, you know, where you're smarter than you actually are. And,

you know, there's, there's things all through marriage story that are, that are both emotionally more, uh, evolved and complex and smarter than I am, you know, because it,

you know, it's that thing. It's like, if you're, if you, if you're, if you're tasked with cracking a story, a narrative and finding what is the story, what is the movie here? And,

and, and getting the performances from the actors and, and, you know, going through the whole, the whole thing, working with Randy Newman, if all those things fall, right. It makes you smarter than you are. It's all the, it's, you know, it's, it's are it's all the it's a you know it's it's it's all the you know or more sort of compassionate more uh you know because it it's because the storytelling make cracking the storytelling kind of can provide if he provides that for you in some sense of them i don't know if that makes sense no it's almost sounds similar to the sort of like the loss of control you have of your own life when

you're going through a divorce where it's like you have to live your life and this other thing is happening same thing when maybe you're making a film and something happens inside the film you don't even really realize consciously that it is happening but it is happening i guess right right and i mean it's you see we see we experience it with music all the time i mean like some combination of lyric and sound and you know and suddenly it's inside you and you're sobbing or or joyous or whatever and you know it's not something that any individual involved with the song could have just done for you or, you know, is capable of doing outside of this art form. Right. Happy accident, residue of design, whatever it is.

Right. A couple more for you. Can you just tell me a Randy Newman story? Do you have any Randy Newman stories to tell? Oh, I've done many Randy Newman stories. I mean, that's one of the great things about this job is, is, is,

is, I mean, there's great things. I mean, there are many great things, but it, but is, is working with people who you grew up with, you know,

you know, they just, they didn't grow up with you, but you grew up with them. And you have an imaginary friendship. Yes. Yeah. And we're in a relationship with,

and they are been with you through all these different times and, uh, Alan Alda being another one. Um, but you know, Randy, I gave, I sent him the script.

He did this actually both on Meyerowitz and on this. Um, when I gave him the script to this and I sent it to him very early on also, um, he is sent back an email. Nice nice very nice response to the script and then he also included uh attached a file which was him playing the piano um playing a theme on the piano um and it was like recorded on his iphone you know on his piano and you know you can hear all the noise outside the

thing and and it's um do you have in the script beautiful randy newman score here like like are you indicating in any way that something like that it should appear no but i i i um but i i often have ideas about where it might be but they don't always hold and you don't say like the tonality or what you want, like what you're looking for necessarily. No. Well, I do with him.

We talk about it. And, and what I did know is that the opening of this movie was going to be musical in all ways. I mean, but it was going to have music. I saw it as a way, almost like an overture.

It was a way to like bring in it's the, again, the musical aspect of the movie, that it was a way to bring in all the themes that we're going to hear for the rest of the movie right uh you got the big closing number and then you have the outro score yes it's designed that way it feels like absolutely and it and Charlie's is they have, they share themes, but they're also have their individual, uh, their individuality. And so, uh, but the thing he sent me is also one of the main, you know,

which we later recorded on the Alfred Newman stage at Fox, you know, his uncle, he told me that he was five the first time he came to that stage and his uncle showed him around and, and, and here we are recording, he's conducting, you know, I find, are so great. And even when there are things that maybe he'll send something for a scene, I will. And it doesn't quite fit exactly for me. Or I decide I don't want music in that scene. I will often find I'll put it somewhere else. And then he'll redevelop it for that other place. I mean, with this this movie it's interesting because

the score is essential to the movie and it's so much a part of the movie i and i think and it's so important to the movie because i felt like it was a in a sense it was kind of musical compassion it was it was like it's celebration it's compassion it's mourning it's you know not underscore it's almost like another like some character in a way um uh and he and i had looked at a lot of we were we talked a lot about george delarue and we talked about um i i love the way the delarue music truffaut used a lot of the music godard did too of where it kind of almost just comes on it's almost as if someone like it's been on mute and or you know and then somebody just turned up the volume and oh it's here again and it I was just watching something in Varda saying the same thing she

used it in in a film and treated it the same way yeah yeah I watched a movie actually with the use of music in a movie that actually I thought a lot about when this was uh two english girls the truffaut movie and i love the music in that movie and and it it's it's also what it reveals is that the same music playing in a joyful scene and then playing in a sad scene that it can be the same cue you know i mean i think there's this often this sort of notion of like we need sad music for here and we need happy music for here and what randy does so beautifully and and also these montages kind of allow for it is that again how the same things can be happy and sad which is of course bears the movie bears this out as well yeah um is uh but the same music can be unhappy and sad depending on the context no we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the Yeah. Is, but the same music can be unhappy and sad depending on the context.

No, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen. You've been showing your movie a lot. I don't know if you've been able to see anything while you've been out on the road. One thing I saw, which was at the Metrograph actually was a print of a true film movie,

the green room. I haven't seen it. Which is, is really interesting. It's really good. It's, it's kind of not as well known as towards the end too. Uh,

can you set it up for us? What is it? It's, uh, it's from a Henry James story, which I don't haven't read. Um, and it's true faux accent.

And, um, it's obsessed with death. It's, uh, it's about a man obsessed with death it's um but his wife has died so it's specifically about sort of not getting over his wife but but it's more philosophical than that he's actually puts together these um he he creates He creates these vigils to all the dead people he knows or has admired.

And he writes obituaries also for a local, it's like a small newspaper. And he goes to auction houses for people who's who have died like you know um anyway it's it's it's a very interesting and what i also felt about it too i actually saw it after marriage story but i i wrote robbie ryan after i saw it because it it used it has many great panning shots like um which we had did a lot in marriage story because i mean i i was loved to dolly i don't use the steady camera then we use one camera always but uh that kitchen scene you're all you're all yeah yeah but because we're in so many interiors in marriage story it was like there's a lot of pans and things and sort of how do you move with people and uh when are they in our reach when are they

out of our reach and anyway i he does a lot of amazing ones in that movie i was very taken with green room no thank you for doing this thank you thank you to noah baumbach for appearing here and making marriage story thank you to Noah Baumbach for appearing here and making Marriage Story. Thank you to Amanda Dobbins, of course, for showing us her true colors. Please tune in next week where we'll have an action-packed episode. Amanda and I will be talking about the launch of Disney+. We'll also be talking to a special guest about the movie Doctor Sleep. I'll have an interview with the writer-director Trey Edward Schultz, who made one of my absolute favorite movies of the year called Waves.

And we'll have a special guest on the show, a member member of my family to talk about some things that she loves about movies see you then