The Big Picture - ‘Materialists’ and the Top Five Movie Love Triangles. Plus: ‘The Life of Chuck,’ With Mike Flanagan.

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

Sean and Amanda have an in-depth conversation and unpack their very mixed feelings on a pair of two new releases coming this weekend. They start with Celine Song's ‘Materialists’ and celebrate Song’s wonderful writing while also exploring their inability to connect to Dakota Johnson's and Pedro Pascal’s performances of the material (1:46). Then, they create their list of the top five movie love triangles of all time (45:10). Next, they discuss Mike Flanagan’s newest Stephen King adaptation, ‘The Life of Chuck,’ and explore why they think it will be such a divisive movie (53:57). Finally, Sean is joined by Flanagan to talk about his relationship to King, why he felt that this was the right time to make a shift away from horror, and how to tightrope walk the thin line between corniness and sincerity (1:21:01). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Mike Flanagan Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Friendly reminder that tickets for the Chicago screening and conversation around number 14 on our 25 for 25 list go on sale today Friday June 13th at 10 a.m. Central time. We're headed to the music box theater in Chicago on Sunday July 20th and ticket information is at the ringer comm Events, we'll see you at the movies! joined for the first time by Mike Flanagan. He's the writer, director of the new film, The Life of Chuck. The Stephen King adaptation won the audience award at TIFF last year and is now in theaters around the country. Flanagan, best known as a horror filmmaker behind movies like Doctor Sleep, Gerald's Game and Oculus, as well as a string of successful Netflix TV shows, including The Haunting of Hill House, Midnight Mass in the Fall, The House of Usher.

I've been a big fan of Mike's for a long time, so very happy to chat with him about this departure for him as a movie. We'll talk about that movie here on this podcast. Stick around for our conversation. But first we've got this pair of very interesting movies to dig into today. Amanda, how are you?

I'm well. It's nice to see you. Nice to see you. I love when we get a couple of movies. That we can argue about? Well, just that are full of stuff that we're interested in. Yes, and to talk about.

And I sat through both of them fighting the impulse to text you multiple times. It's the same. I was excited about both of them. And wanting to say things to you and was like adding things to the document at like 730 this morning, being like, I had another thing. So yeah, it's fun. I think both of these movies are imperfect, but also very rich to examine. So let's start with Materialist, which is, I think, safe to say,

one of the more anticipated movies of the year for both you and I. Comes to us from Celine Song, she's the writer-director, she was the writer-director of Past Lives, which was, that was in your top five of 2023, was it not? I thought and still think it's a pretty magical movie. A very special film. This film is a follow-up. This is a, I would say, more Hollywood follow-up, particularly because of the clearly, like, an increase in budget

and star power that accompanies this movie. The movie stars Dakota Johnson, Chris Evans, Pedro Pascal, Zoe Winters, Maren Ireland, Dasha Necrosova. Uh, it's about a New York City matchmaker who finds her life getting complicated when she becomes torn between an ex Who she still has feelings for and a new bachelor who enters her life and kind of sweeps her off her feet Chris Evans is the ex Pedro Pascal is the bachelor What did you think of materialists as I said to you I really liked it and also

Didn't think it totally worked. I don't think that all of the fascinating stuff that is in it totally comes together in one movie. And so there are a lot of things that I really responded to, a lot of things that I thought were funny. I think that this is a movie that is in the conversation with a tradition of movies that I thought were funny. I think that this is a movie that is in the conversation with a tradition of movies that I really love and not just romantic comedies. And we'll talk a lot about the trailer, how it's being marketed and it's not a romantic comedy.

It's not really even that funny. Parts of, there's some very amusing observant moments, but it is not, there's nothing slapstick. It's not a 40s rom-com, how about that? And I think it's very smart. I love the way that Celine Tsang writes. And it is very written. Both of these films today are very written

and we'll talk about the pluses and minuses of that. So I'm really excited to talk to you about it. I still, and I, and I find myself like arguing with myself being like, okay, but wait, do I actually really like it because I have so much to say about it? And I do really like it. Um, I, there are just some things that like straight up don't work for me in it. The same is true for me. There are just some things that straight up don't work for me in it.

The same is true for me. I feel similarly as you, but I feel like you are a little bit pained by your lack of all-in-ness. And I think I was pretty nervous about this movie because of the trailer, and I think it revealed itself to be clearly just an urban romantic drama. It does have some comic moments, but it is a very straight movie. And just this morning, well, last night, somebody added me on X and said,

are you doing any syllabus this soon? I haven't done a syllabus in a while. And I was like, I kind of want to, but if I had seen Materialist sooner, I would have done one about Materialist because it's kind of rich with a little bit of movie history in it. And A24, the movie studio that is releasing Materialist, just tweeted out all of the film references that Celine saw. Working on it for weeks, and they just tweeted it out. They just tweeted it out. But in March, she clearly wrote someone an email with all the film references.

And if you look at the movies that Celine is referencing for the film, that's a lot of costume dramas. Yeah, it's a lot of Jane Austen, and it's a lot of Edith Wharton, which is definitely what jumped out to me immediately. Absolutely, and this idea of lot of Edith Wharton, which is definitely what jumped out to me immediately. Absolutely. And this idea of sort of class and finance and wealth informing romance is a huge key.

It's kind of the keystone of the movie itself. And then the other critical voice whose name pops up on this list is James L. Brooks. And James L. Brooks, who wrote funny scenes, but deep emotional films. And I think at times times materialist is that. So, the movie that it reminded me of while watching it, because we get so few movies like this these days,

is Marriage Story. Because Marriage Story was a movie that I really, really loved. I loved it more than this movie. But that I think I had more fun thinking about and potting with you about, than I did actually sitting and watching it. I don't find myself returning to Marriage Story over and over

again the way I would other bomb back movies. That's true. But it was so loaded with things that like lit my brain on fire. Yeah, but some of the lack of rewatchability is just that it's like very tough subject matter and very emotional to us subject matter that is handled beautifully. I did rewatch it maybe a year or two ago

for some podcasts that we were doing and just like found myself in tears again. So that's why I am not like, hey, it's Friday night. Let's, you know, like fire up marriage story, even the way I would for say Kicking and Screaming or Francis Ha or I guess Greenberg. It's 15 years of Greenberg. Can we revisit Greenberg? You wanna do a Greenberg pod? Yeah, sure. Yeah, really, really underrated. I'm turning into Greenberg? Uh, I mean, can we... It's 15 years of Greenberg. Can we revisit Greenberg?

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Yeah, really, really underrated. I'm turning into Greenberg. I think everyone knows that I'm turning into Greenberg, so I'm trying to get around that as much as I can. Uh, I think the thing that that movie did, that you've identified, that this movie doesn't do, is it doesn't get me...

It didn't get me emotionally involved. And there are a couple of reasons why... Materialist doesn't get us as emotionally involved as we'd like to be. For me, I'm going to be very careful about how I frame this. Okay. I don't get Dakota Johnson, comma, the actress. Okay.

I, yeah. I think she seems like a super cool person. She was on Amy Poehler's podcast this week, Good Hang. Great interview. The asparagus bit, the dot. I mean, like it super cool person. She was on Amy Poehler's podcast this week, Good Hang. Great interview. The asparagus bit, the dot. I mean, like, it's really good. She, it's a great episode of the show. Lights out press tour. And it would also... And I'll do this work for you.

She's astonishingly beautiful. Like, she's so beautiful and she's so pretty in the movie. And I did find myself just in the movie, just being like, wow, your hair is so shiny. And I have had conversations with friends being like, Dakota Johnson has always been beautiful, but whatever she has put together for this press tour. She's at the right age, I think.

And this film, it's powerful. Yeah, she's luminous. And that, I think in some ways, works against her in this movie in a specific way. But to me, it's not about whether or not she holds the screen. I think she is a good movie star. I just don't think, I can't get connected to movies

where she has to drive the emotional action. If she is in a bigger splash and her kind of reservedness is playing, or Suspiria, where this sort of like restraint and fear is driving it, I can get interested in it. But a movie where she has to be the person that we are feeling for all the time, I just can't, it's just, it's black licorice for me. I can't get into it, I don't buy her as this person.

Yeah. And the whole movie is kind of hinging on that. And so, as much as I can admire and we can unpack thematically, visually, what is so cool and accomplished about this movie. I just kept banging my head against like, did she just read this dialogue for the first time in this scene? Well, okay, yes. You know? I would like to mount like a limited defense.

Okay. Which is, to some point, I think her reservedness and the disconnect from the world and an emotion that she brings is a cool theme of the movie. And there are aspects of it that work and kind of highlight, I think, what Celine's song is trying to do. I do not think that Dakota Johnson is built for long stage monologues. She's just not. And to your point about did she just get this for the first time, you know what?

She's not the only actor in this movie who can't do it. So there are some really, really tough moments of two people saying what I think are like very interesting, well written, like well digested, if like a bit long, speeches about love and society and money and, you know, the ideal marriage. And it just goes on and on and on. So I'm, I am with you at some point that the people who are cast to do this work can't sell what they need to sell. It's a complete paradox because a movie like this doesn't get made without Pedro Pascal,

Dakota Johnson, Chris Evans, very well known people who you want to get emotionally invested in their character's stories. But it's hard, broadcast news will come up probably multiple times in this conversation. It's notable to me that it's the very first movie on Celine's list. And the dynamic between Holly Hunter and Albert Brooks and William Hurt is, sparks all the time. Right. It is a, it's a very hot movie.

This is a little chilly at times. It is a little bit removed. And I think it's interesting to see Celine Song elevate herself as a filmmaker. I think some of that coldness is because she has entered like a world of wealth and class that we don't see in past lives. You know, the Pedro Pascal character

is a private equity guy. And he's got this like classic American psycho bachelor pad. Sure. That is beautiful. He only dines in elegant subterranean beautifully lit restaurants. Yeah. A lot of the way that she shoots all these things is it's not a watch commercial, but it's not Fellini either. It's kind of like in this middle ground between there's like a real point of view, but it's very polished.

I thought a lot of Sofia. Definitely. Definitely. And the observation, not just there's that great, the apartment reveal scene is done. It's also like the first time they have sex. And I think Dakota Johnson is great in that moment because she's hot for the apartment, not for him.

Yes. There's a great shot of her like kind of peering around the corner to check everything out. And the camera is working with her too. So I think that's really well done. And then there is a lot of, you know, there are things at the edges, like both weddings, impeccably designed and really like say something about these characters and what kind of chess pieces they are in this game. And they are also just like incredibly well observed. Like that barn wedding, like I was like,

is this where I got married? In a way that was really upsetting. It's very familiar. Yeah, it was not. And it was a beautiful wedding. So good job, Zach. And good job this movie. The bridesmaids and the...

Like, at the first wedding and the comedy of that. So, there is... There is stuff that she's doing, like, with the camera, with scene setting, with world building, that is, like, very, very well-observed, very sharp, and really works. I think the first 15 minutes in particular was very Woody Allen and Nancy Meyers to me,

where it was much more comic, it's much more introducing many characters who have like, their foibles are right on the surface, they're constantly talking about the things that they want, which reveals their own weaknesses, and there is an energy. And then as soon as we start determining what the emotional conflict of the movie is going to be, which is the hit.

There's no emotional conflict. There's no emotional conflict. It's just a little flat. There is plot suspense, sort of. And I did find myself wondering, well, I wonder how she's going to end this. Because I know what's going to happen according to the emotional or the, not even the rules.

But like the rules of expectation. Well, sure. But I was like, OK, are you gonna follow the rules? Are you gonna subvert the rules? you know and and You could pick either but in terms of what's happening between these characters and or at least what's being performed? I know exactly where the emotions lie. There's no doubt and You know respectfully there's just zero chemistry between Dakota and Pedro Pascal, like absolutely nothing. And their press tour has been amazing to watch

because they do have a different, really electric kind of chemistry. Like, please check out the Vogue interview. It is so funny. I haven't seen that. I think we will kind of start to nudge into spoiler territory. So if people have not had a chance to see Materialist,

I would say for me it is a soft recommend, and I think some people are going to love it. Yeah. And I think some people are going to be like, what is this? I ultimately did like it. I might even like it more seeing it again. I have only seen it one time. But I think that what you just described about their kind of anti-chemistry between these two people is the feature and not the bug because that is the theme of the story is when you're seeking a partner in your life. Yeah.

Is it better to seek the person that will give you the things that are on your checklist or is it better to seek the person that will animate that spark inside of you? And that's really what Song is interested in, right? Like that's what she wants to explore. I, yeah, but like, no, thank you. Like I, I'm a veteran of this. Like, should you pay, like, is it Mr. Big, is it Aiden?

Is it something like, thank you very much. Like, and I know when I see like the push pull and the, oh, I would choose this thing or I would choose that thing. And there's just like, nothing between that. Seriously, like, I would choose this thing or I would choose that thing. And there's just like nothing between that. Seriously, like let's explore that though. Is there ever a time in the movie when you're meant to believe that Dakota Johnson's character is actually interested

in Pedro Pascal as a person? Cause I'm not sure that the intention is for that to exist. Unlike say Carrie Bradshaw, where you really can tell that she's like, I don't know, I like both guys, you know? Like, this movie is different because even though Chris Evans is on the periphery of the story, he's not fighting for her. He's thinking about her, they're in contact,

but it's not a competition in the way that we usually see it, in the Philadelphia story sense, where you're like, these two guys are right next to each other, and they're kind of fighting for the same dame. This isn't really that kind of a movie. I mean, it is like a what is she going to choose? But that character is also given so much, just like, even if it's incorrect self-knowledge,

but she spends the whole time being like, no, this is how it works, and I know everything, and I know this game, and I know this, and I understand that I would only be picking this person for this. And then there is that long and beautifully shot and for my money interminable scene at the restaurant, the subterranean restaurant. Gordon Willis' dining, the most shadowy restaurant in New York.

I mean, it's beautiful. Yeah. And it seems like he's turning her a little, maybe not emotionally, but in the sense of where do her, like, emotions go? Mm-hmm. You know? Like... like emotions go, you know? But to me that scene is really good because he just pulls a move that men pull,

which is like direct eye contact compliment, which like humans cannot resist. You can't resist when someone just looks at you and is like, but that's what I'm saying. It is very powerful. I know you do it, I know that you do it, but it's weird. But it is something that most guys I know do it. And it is like, it almost feels like Celine Song

has located the particular moves. And maybe it's because she has this backstory where for six months she worked as a matchmaker. So she did actually spend time looking people in the eyes, asking them what they want, getting communication from them. And... you know, I don't know if I believe that either of those people are real.

I believe that Chris Evans' character is real. That is a pert... and she works with a lot of stage actors as a playwright, and she seems to be putting a lot of failed stage actor into that part. These two people feel like more constructs, but she's using them as a platform to explore her own interest in this idea. And like a lot of these ideas are basically like wealth and security or passion,

which is very Jane Austen, you know, very Edith Wharton. And I- Remember when you, I find, you finally watched Sense and Sensibility and you were like, I mean, what's the big deal? Like what's really, what's going on with them? I liked it. No, I know, but like you didn't, you know, we've made a lot of progress.

So you understand the stakes dramatically here. I read House of Mirth in college and I was miserable reading that book too. So I think I don't, that's just, it's not, it's not my, I was much more interested in a contemporary setting. Like I think I clicked to it more. Okay. But so I think this clicked to it more. OK.

But so I think this movie is ultimately going to be a challenge for us, because you're not very into Pedro Pascal and I'm not very into Dakota Johnson. And so they are the first two thirds of the movie in so many ways with Evans on the periphery. Any time they're getting into those speeches, I kind of dug it. It felt very Sorkin and Mamet to me. Whereas like you make exceptions for writers

who are being writerly out loud if you like the things that they're interested in. You know what I mean? I don't mind that they're being writerly out loud. I just don't think that the performance of the writing always gets there. And there is both like a, there's a tone and a pacing thing in this movie that

kept sticking out to me. I mean, it has like five endings. Like, literally, I thought five different times that I was watching the last scene. And... I think she kept trying to pull the rug out from you where you're like, you're at a wedding, and they're together, and you think you're gonna have a moment.

And there's like, and as you noted, there's like a great front stoop moment. And you're like, oh, that's so nice! Call back, pass lives, we're doing it again. Um... And there's like, and as you noted, there's like a great front stoop moment and you're like, oh, that's so nice, call back, pass lives, we're doing it again. But I do also think, but because there is a disconnect between the three characters,

or I know that there is an intentional disconnect between them, but I think there also is like a real tonal disconnect. And the way Dakota Johnson is playing it is in a slightly different movie than the way Pedro Johnson is playing it is in a slightly different movie than the way Pedro Pascal is playing it, which is in a way different movie than Chris Evans, which is sort of the point.

But sometimes it just, the moments where it's as if they were on the stage together speaking to each other, they're not on the same stage. I agree. There is something just a little off in the chemistry. Uh, let's talk about matchmaking and that as the angle of the movie. Cause the other focus of it is that Lucy, the Dakota Johnson character is, I guess in her early thirties and she's 39 in the film. Lucy, the other matchmaker.

Oh, no, no, no. Lucy. Oh, I thought you were talking about Zoe Winterson. The Lucy character, I guess it is like 32, 33 maybe. I think she's 32. She was trying to be an actress. That's how she met John, the Chris Evans character, but she's given up on acting. And she says she makes $80,000 a year as a matchmaker, which is not a lot living in Manhattan.

No, and does not support the apartment that we see at the beginning. And maybe, was that like a winking nod at the... I mean, I think so. ...unreality of a lot of these films? Okay, I thought that was notable. I mean, it obviously underscores the fact that money matters to her, that she is thinking about money and you need money to survive, especially in New York City.

But, um... this profession... is very strange in that it has a kind of like thousands year arc. The film, in fact, starts with this like the origination of marriage, you know, like the earliest people on this planet. And then the idea of families coming together to create strong bonds and to share wealth and to grow and to build societies

is this deep idea that's kind of embedded in it. But most of the people that I know that have gotten together and gotten married in the last 10 years met online. And most people just meet online now. And that like, rambunctious and weird bar culture that you and I were in in New York is like, seemingly a little bit more toned down these days, at least based on the people that I know in my life. And I don't know anybody that's worked with a matchmaker. I do. I'd love to hear about their experiences anonymously,

because I find this to be such a odd thing to pursue, to be interested in, to attempt. And the movie does, ultimately, I think, come out on the side of like, this is maybe a bit evil, like a bit toxic, and quite dangerous when you hear about some of the... a particular instance that happens to one of her clients. Yes, sure. I mean, the Dakota Johnson character, Lucy, is always talking in terms of spreadsheets. You know, she's a woman after your own heart.

Indeed. Maybe that's why I'm a little... And non-negotiables and that it's math. That's something that I think she says over and over again. She does. And so I think the movie definitely comes down on the side of it's not. It's not math. Or that love is not math.

And I think this difference between love and this movie's idea of marriage and what you should, how the two should or shouldn't be intermingled is interesting. Is marriage a business proposition or is it an emotional experience? Yeah, exactly. And I think the movie definitely thinks that the matchmaking and the mathematic approach to long-term partnership is evil. Is there any truth in it? Like, did you do calculus in your head when you were getting married?

Uh, no, not at all. But I do also think that Zach and I, like, a lot of the qualifications that she keeps repeating of, you know, like similar backgrounds, similar education, like, it just, it happened that way that that's Zach and I do actually meet up to the spreadsheet, even if we weren't checking on the list. Same with you and your wife. We went to high school together. So yeah, we have tremendously similar backgrounds.

Exactly. So, but no, I didn't, I didn't do the checklist. And I think I was pretty pissed off the first year when I realized that I had to file taxes with Zach. I remember this. Yeah, because I was like, no, no, no, no. I didn't think about it as forming a business and I didn't want to form a business with him.

You wanted an individuated Amanda Industries. Yeah, I do. I wanted my own business. Like we still have separate bank accounts, you know, like this, all of this stuff. But you know, you go through and you learn that it actually, you did form a corporation. Yeah, I would love to see her sequel to this.

It kind of explores that. I think that would be really interesting. I think some of the exploration of this idea was a little overwrought. Like at a certain point, we're kind of 90 minutes into the movie and she's still doing the kind of like, well, by my calculations approach to this, which just, I understand why it's like a schematic way to kind of follow the story all the way through. But the idea itself of, could you hire someone to help you find this thing that you're looking for? But then more specifically, what's really inside people who can't find what they're looking for? It's something that is an aspect

of the movie. It's a smaller aspect than Lucy's quest to figure out whether or not she wants to be with either of these guys. But Zoe Winters, who people probably best know as Logan Roy's assistant cum lover in succession... Pun intended. Pun intended, plays one of Lucy's clients, a, I would say, somewhat desperate 39-year-old woman who is sort of ordinary in every way, per Lucy's description, that she is like,

not great at anything, but not bad at anything. All of her attributes and characteristics are nice. They're good. And that lack of specialness that Dasha Nekrasova from Red Scare talks about her, it's so funny to me that Dasha's just in movies now. Listen, podcasters can be anything. You know, the smartless guys have a mobile network.

You know? Congratulations to them. They really made it. I'm super happy. Should we start a mobile network? I don't really know what that is. I don't really either. Is it just like poor Jack has to go and like connect

people's calls like operator style? I don't wish that on Jack anytime soon. I don't either. Maybe it could just be a service that's like, don't make this phone call, which would be my advice. Would you consider an advice service where you took one call per week from a listener and you just gave them, you dear-abbied them?

1,000%. You would do that. Oh my god. And there's next week's episode. I would be so good at it. OK, so we don't have an episode for next week because we were going to do this movie and Light the Chalk together. Yeah, and now we're combining them. And I saw both movies and I was like,

I feel like these movies fit together. Yes, they do. So I wanted to go live on Monday. Oh, okay. Just for like an hour and 90 minutes and just like be in the chat. But if we did like the advice episode, I think that would be funny.

Bobby, I mean, Bobby, Jesus Christ. Jack, do you think we could do that? I think we could make it work. Okay. I mean, I feel really connected to our listeners right now. The nice ones anyway. And, um, and like, I'm really ready. Okay, you can dear Abbi it.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jack, do you think you need to navigate what we answer or are we looking at the chat while we're live? I think I should probably throw you some bones. Yeah, that probably makes sense. Okay, well that could be fun. There's gonna be a lot of guys in the comments being like, Sean, sign my Blu-ray.

Yeah, we gotta shout out to those guys, we love you. I just wanna say, skincare questions, Jack, are allowed. Okay, I don't know about that. Absolutely. Anyhow, let's go. Did you see that Chris shared his skincare routine on Jam? I haven't listened yet, but I will. It was amazing. He went and got every single product.

Check out Jam Session. How many products does he have for skincare? He had at least four to show, and then I had to follow up about sunscreen. Are you wearing sunscreen? There's SPF in my moisturizer, but that's the only thing I put on every day. Okay, that's good, that's good.

One little dime of moisturizer, that's it, SPF in my moisturizer, but that's the only thing I put on every day. Okay, that's good. That's good. One little dime of moisturizer and that's it. SPF. There you go. I got a lot of sunburn at Disneyland in Legoland last week, I gotta tell you. Let's go back to Zoe Winters. Okay. That scene's really funny where they're talking about how she's kind of unspectacularly fine.

But that character becomes tragic because as the story goes on, she's in her attempts to kind of find someone, anyone who will click with this woman, he sets her up with this guy, Mark P. And it turns out that Mark P. is a... Number one voiced, never seen and voiced only, voiced by John Magaro. Instantaneously recognizable. Yeah, and I was, I got to see this movie

with Rob Mahoney and Joanna was, I got to see this movie with Rob Mahoney and Joanna Robinson, which was really fun. And the moment you heard his voice, Joanna was like, Oh, it's John Magaro. You know, it was just a very exciting, and then the movie went on.

Would you like to share what happens from there? Unfortunately, this is not the John Magaro of past lives. This is the Mark P of Materialist, and he assaults Zoe Winters' character on their date when she goes to the bathroom. And Lucy, while she's kind of entrenched in this relationship with Pedro Pascal's character, and she's trying to figure out, like, who she is, she eagerly, like, seeks out Lucy's approval on Mark,

doesn't hear back from him, or doesn't hear back from her. She calls Mark, we hear Don McGarra's voice. He's like, yeah, it was like a, it was a good day. I think I would see her again. Yeah, I don't know if it'll be serious. And immediately we're like, okay, something's wrong here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we learn that he has assaulted her

from her boss, played by Maren Ireland. How wonderful to see Maren Ireland, not in a terrible horror movie. Exactly. I'm used to seeing her having her eyes gouged out by a demon. And in this case, she's just a boss. More like stuck in a basement. Yes.

So you know, Zoe Winters' character decides to sue the matchmaking service that Lucy works for. And then this sends Lucy into a kind of a tailspin of like, is what I'm doing wrong? Right. It's everything about my life wrong. What is love? Is this pointless?

Is this hopeless? And that I would say even more so than the will she pick him or will she pick him feels like the narrative thrust of the movie. I'm not sure that I ultimately got to the conclusion of that feeling though. Like is by choosing the person that she chooses, and we can get into Chris Evans momentarily,

does that answer the crisis that she's having in the second act of this movie? Well, I think the film thinks it does. I don't think this is handled particularly well. And I think it's valid to open up all the questions and like, what am I doing and is everything wrong? But the resolution, and again, spoilers, is that after not being in touch,

the Zoe Winters character calls Dakota Johnson because the, you know, faceless Mark P. is outside her apartment. And she's terrified and like doesn't know who else to call or to help her. So Lucy answers the call, goes with Chris Evans, like helps, you know, helps her get a restraining order. But you know, which is all good. But then in the movie, it's like that event is what leads her to really, you know, reconcile like Aaron Best and Chris Evans. And there's a little bit of like implied cause and effect of like, oh, this person had to

be assaulted in order for you to like choose love. That was maybe not even intended, but to me, doesn't, it didn't sit right. I think that that is definitely a little bit messy. When I was watching it, what I struggled with was just a very simple straining of credulity around why would this woman call Lucy? She literally says on the phone,

I don't have any friends in the city. Right. I'm like, why do you live in the city? What do you even... You don't know anybody except this woman whose company you're suing? This is the only person who can come and help you in this moment of need? Yeah. That just seemed pretty crazy. I mean...

Just like a gaping plot hole where I was like, huh, you just took me out of the movie by saying that out loud. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, that's all valid. I mean, then that, you know, they race back from the side of your wedding. Yeah. The side of my wedding. And then what town was that in? So I don't remember. I remember what the event, the event was.

No, your wedding. No, I know. You don't know the name of the town that you were married in? No, because it wasn't even a town. It was called Handsome Hollow is the event space. Shout out Kate, who runs Handsome Hollow, did an amazing job. No free ads. Yeah, no free ads.

Wow. But I don't know, it was like Western Catskills. Okay. Remember? I mean, you were there. But you stayed in the Airbnb next door, so you didn't have to do anything. Yeah. That was awesome.

Yeah, that was nice. That was a fun wedding. Very fun wedding. But that she would like immediately be led into, you know, I had like security concerns. I'm like, why are you buzzing this random person into your home if there's someone else outside, you know what I mean? And then you're just like gonna hang outside on the stoop and make moony eyes at Chris Evans. I don't know.

I thought the movie was, if not tight, I found it to be very controlled all the way up until they went up to the wedding. Yeah. Upstate. And then the movie kind of gets a little bit loose in how it kind of wraps itself up. And it's hard because this is a framework that if it's not Jane Austen, it's Hollywood convention is our expectation. And it wants to subvert it, but it knows that it can't because we've already set up this Chris Evans character in the way that we have. So let's just talk about Chris Evans quickly.

Yeah. It's been taking an absolute beating on this podcast for about two years. From you. From me. It's because I believe in him and I really want better for him and I really like him. And I've seen him in a couple of interviews with Dakota Johnson for this press tour and I'm like, he's clearly like a cool, smart guy. It's kind of a simple guy. Yeah. Which is OK.

Did you see the clip of their non-negotiables for dating IRL? So his is literally, Must Love Dogs. I don't know if he knows that that's a 2000 and something film. He's just a bro. Yeah, Must Love Dogs. And then Dakota Johnson's, Like Don't Be an Asshole,

which was live on the Today Show. So then she gets in a little trouble. OK. Good rule, though little trouble. So yeah. Good rule though. All right, yeah. I think his character in this movie is fine. I think his performance is very good. I think it really utilizes his charms very well,

which is that he's this incredibly handsome guy, but has like a little low hum of loser energy that he can access. And part of why I have not enjoyed him in movies in the last few years is because he keeps taking parts where he's like, I'm the hero. And it's really boring. And he was a good Captain America

because he's like the wimp at the beginning of the movie. And then he utilizes his Evans-ness to become a superhero. I agree. I think that he, and I like Dakota Johnson, I like Pedro Pascal, I'm sorry, but in contrast to the other two, he is very emotionally forward.

Yes. And there are a lot of shots of him not saying anything and just giving the longing puppy dogs a stare and it works every time. Totally agree. He's so good at it. And I respond and just kind of swoon to it. And so, you know, and in some ways that's in the text, right? Because he is the emotional choice versus Harry,

the Pedro Pascal character, who is the financial choice. But, you know, movies are an emotional medium in this. And so you do find yourself responding. He's wonderful. I think the movie is very intentionally not letting you really get too close to Harry, but it kind of hurts the movie because you never feel like it's ever going to be Harry at any time when you're watching it. So that desire that you want when you're watching a movie like this to kind of figure out where our hero, our star, our lead is leaning, never really exists because

when she's shooting Chris Evans sitting on the ground outside of a bodega on the phone, you're like, God, I hope he gets what he wants. Gosh, he's a portal of empathy. Yeah. She shoots his apartment really well. It's so gross and so familiar. Yeah, we've been there. I mean, oh.

I'm so happy to be not living in New York City. I'm so glad to no longer be dating men with roommates. BOTH LAUGH Did you ever date a guy who lived in Sunset Park? Apparently that's where he lived. No. Although I think, I mean, Zach was like... south, south Park's Low.

He was. He was in Greenpoint when he and I became friends. But by the time I met him, no roommates. So that was good. Yeah. Yeah. He had a but by the time I met him, no roommates. So that was good. Yeah. Yeah. He had a nice apartment. I liked his apartment. I think that Evans is good in this.

He obviously has less to do and is less of the focus of the movie. I certainly feel like I've also seen that absolutely terrible off-Broadway play he was performing in a couple of times in a warehouse somewhere on the outskirts of Brooklyn. That just feels like a world that she really knows and a person that she really knows. And that was part of what I was responding to, that it was just like a little bit more lived in, a little bit more naturalized as opposed to this sort of, I can feel her moving the chess pieces a little bit

with Dakota Johnson and Harry and the private equity world. And let's talk briefly about the Harry character. There's a big reveal about this character, which I think is actually, I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, and it was funny, it was funny in, I was in a patch screening. Because there's real anticipation for this movie. And it was like funny to clock everyone realizing in real time.

And it like, as soon as I saw like, you know, one, I was like, oh, of course. Because it's, you know, Chekhov's like height surgery is too weird. Earlier in the film, there's a discussion about the fact Oh, of course. Yes. Because it's, you know, Chekhov's like height surgery is too weird. Earlier in the film, there's a discussion about the fact between Dasha's character and Lucy about how men can have a surgery

to lengthen their legs and become taller. Yeah. And this movie is very interested in the idea of what height means to a man. Yeah. And... Which I think it... And in many ways, height as like their financial, literally their capital.

It's a status builder, for sure. Which I think is pretty true. So I, you know... Yeah, I guess so. It is. It's just like, I'm sorry to say. And anyway, so it is revealed that Harry, the Pedro Pascal character, has in fact had this height surgery. Six inches, he says.

And there is one fantastic shot at the end of that scene where he crouches down and it kind of pulls back and wide and you see how much shorter than that. And it's like very effective and... This conversation in the kitchen, when it becomes clear that they're not gonna be together, that Lucy has made the choice that she can't be with him because she doesn't love him,

and she knows that he doesn't love her, but that they have come to this conclusion that they should be together, was the most James L. Brooks to me in the movie. This was the closest I thought, because it felt very true and it felt like where she's driving the whole time, where she's like, I know I'm getting to this scene where they need to have this conversation.

And she had landed on this idea of lengthening your legs as that being like a checkable box. And this being his fatal flaw, his Achilles heel, his like his ancient wound, because he's a short guy. And he's got short guy energy and he can't get around it. Yeah. And that being a psychological blocker, me, I couldn't relate. You know, it's not something I understand. You have tall guy privilege and you walk around it with it every day. I do. I don't really. I do. What must that be like? I don't know. Congratulations. But I thought it was really clever. I like this part of the reveal. I like that this is how they kind of broke it up. Yeah. And it was fun. Like people gasped in the screening, which was pretty funny.

And as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, all right, this is clever. It was good. Yeah, no, it was good. One other thing I want to note is I love the music in this movie. So good. Incredible needle drops, like really tasteful, like in my brain, needle drops, Cat Power, Harry Nilsson. There's a Daniel Pemberton score that is very elegant and subtle and doesn't overdo it.

The music, I think, is the thing that immediately clued me into what kind of a movie it is. Like as soon as you get that kind of wide shot in New York of people, the crowds moving down the city streets and you hear the Cap Power Manhattan needle drop, I was like, oh, this is like a Mike Nichols movie. This isn't a Noah Efron movie, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, there's just something different energy-wise. Um, and I'm ultimately grateful for that. I wish the story was told a little bit differently.

And I, who's a different actor? Who's an actress who would be better in this part? Who's an actor who would be better against Dakota Johnson? It's like a rude thing to do, but I couldn't, watching it, I couldn't help but try to get my head around who would be more engaging as a dramatic performer. Because there's a great moment in the movie where we've just seen John's performance of his play.

They go to a dingy Brooklyn bar afterwards. Harry in his like rich guy sort of dressed down outfit. Lucy being supportive of John. Lucy and John are having a conversation at the bar and they're talking about acting. And she says, I always love to watch you act. And then Lucy's character says, I was never any good at it. I don't know how to talk.

I don't know how to stand. And I was in my deepest mind was like, is Celine Song, is she making fun of Dakota Johnson? Is she making fun of me thinking this about Dakota Johnson? Is Dakota Johnson being self-aware about some of the feelings about her kind of like affectless distance as a performer? Yeah. I don't know, but it was unmistakable

that that scene is in the movie. Where she's been, her character's like, I can't act. Yeah. Which is something I've been saying about her for five years. She does have incredible presence though. I agree. I'm trying to think of what actor could really, I can't act. Yeah. Which is something I've been saying about her for five years. She does have incredible presence though. I agree. I'm trying to think of what actor could really, I mean, the answer to your question is Jennifer

Lawrence, you know, which is the answer for every single under, you know, 30 to 35. Yeah. That would be interesting. And she... I used to think she couldn't do this kind of thing, but now I think she can. I mean, she can. She's all emotion, you know? Do you think they went to her?

Maybe. Seems possible. Yeah. Who is the man is the question for me. What if it was Brad Cooper? Oh, wow. I could see it. A little older. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, needs to make a move. Yeah, oh, wow. I could see it. A little older.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I, yeah, it's a good one. It's a good one. Okay. It's just, it's good. It's right there. What could have been? What could have been?

What could have been? I like Chris Evans where he is. I think there are some people who are listening right now who are like Pedro Pascal is my favorite actor. And they're very upset with you. Well, that's what's, you know, what's new. We've talked about how we talked about in the 35 over 35 episode how this is a big summer for him.

Yes. You know, that he's got this movie and soon Eddington and then Fantastic Four, First Steps. So you think he's over one less far in his quest to become a big star. I think he's miscast. The same way that you think Dakota Johnson is miscast. He has presence and I've liked him in other things,

and I am going to see both of those films. Yeah, I definitely like him more than you. Yeah. I don't know if he's perfect for this movie, but I like being with him in movies and TV. I think I do too. I just think that he's wrong in this part. You know, I was going to ask this about the next movie that we're going to do, but does this movie have any, like,

awards chance? I don't really gonna do, but does this movie have any like awards chance? I don't really think so, but... Is there like an original screenplay nomination out there possibly? Like what if, it could be a hit. Yeah, and I'm curious, I know I was out last night and like two cyber people who have babysitters lined up to go on date night to see this movie opening weekend.

So I think there is like a core group of people who are excited about it. And maybe people will respond differently than... So far, at least the critical response is... I would say soft positive. Yeah, but like with heavy notes. Which is what we just did. Jack, is this like high on your radar? Very high. I reached out to Amanda to try to see it early. Unfortunately, timing didn't allow it because I was in Colorado. But yeah, I mean, Past Lives was a huge movie for my girlfriend and I.

Okay. Yeah, I guess that's it. How'd you guys meet? Are you willing to share that on the podcast? Sure, I'm willing to share that. In high school, my girl best friend went to a camp called Girl State. They actually made a documentary, 8.4 Voices in Girl Street. They met there because my girlfriend now was roommates with a girl who went to high school with my best friend. And they met and clicked because they thought

the whole thing was incredibly ridiculous. Okay, great. And then this was during the senior year of high school. So over the summer, lots of grad parties and we just met at grad parties. Okay, so through people. Yes. All right, and also you're dating a girl state alum.

That is true. That's pretty rad. That's fascinating. Yeah. Maybe we'll get into that in the future, Jack. So no Oscar stuff. We think this is going to be like kind of a mid-level hit. I think in this screenplay mix, maybe.

Yeah. I'm excited about, you know, this is now the third movie in a row that Justin Karitskes and the Celine Song union has created about love triangles. A guy from the past versus a more, you know, practical modern choice. Yeah. What's going on there? I also noted it as when we left. What's happening?

I don't know. You know, write what you know. Yeah. How many times can you write it? How many times can you explore this concept? Honestly, here's the thing though. Are we going to do our top five? Yes. Because we'll watch it every single time. So I think it's great.

I think if you're as good a writer as those two, then absolutely. I mean, the thing that's interesting to me about Celine's song is that like, so she was also a matchmaker in addition to having like this long lost, because past lives was also pretty autobimaker in addition to having this long-lost, because Past Lives was also pretty autobiographical, as I understand it. So, I mean, she just seems like she's living a cooler life than me. Well, her other thing is when she was on the show a couple years ago, by the way, great guest if you didn't listen to that one, if you've seen Past Lives since then, I encourage

you to go back. She was such a cool person to talk to. But she was like, what I really want to do is write a movie about poker. I'm really into poker. And I was like, you are the coolest person I've ever met. So yeah, she's great. Just a real what are we doing? Yeah.

Okay. Movie love triangles. Now, just quickly, do you see this as a love triangle, this movie? Like in the classical sense? I mean, it's a who should she choose? Okay. Which is sort of the setup. Um, and yeah, so yes.

Okay. Let's do our list. We share a number one, and it's come up already. But let's, let's, let's... Number five, go ahead. Past lives. Really, really great. Don't forget. And I also just really did want to point out that this is, there's a continuous theme here in Celine Song's movies, and also her husband's work. Her husband, I,

it's a very nice guy also, by the way, and a good interview on the show. Also a guest of this show. Um, I... Did she choose correctly in that film? Uh, in past lives? Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Okay, it's a tough one. My number five is Fight Club. Um... I think this is really funny. I don't think I really understood until somewhat recently that that's what this movie is really about. It's like, should I decide to be in a committed relationship or not?

And if I don't, should I be an agent of anarchy? Which is just a really, you know, when you're 17, you don't get, all you can get is the angst. All you can get is the angst. All you can get is the why is the consumerist, you know, nightmare world this way. But this is, should I just decide to put a ring on that girl's finger? You know, that girl who loves to go to meetings about colon cancer.

Um, I think it's very funny to view it through that lens. Okay, what's your number four? Uh, another recent topic on this show, Something's Gotta Give, which I did kind of approach this exercise under the thought umbrella of, what are my most like, oh, maybe she should have chosen the other guy movies of all time?

Because that is like the success of a love triangle in some ways that both are like real candidates. So obviously Keanu Reeves, the faceless Hamptons doctor who you insulted on this podcast and to I just- She's not a real person. I felt, yeah, but it is like a real, can we, it's powerful.

We'd all like to have sex with that guy. There's no question about it. But also- Beyond that, what is going on with that guy? Don't you think you would have a nice life with him? He's a doctor in the Hamptons, and he likes plays. Uh... And Paris.

He just, um... He's not real. I don't know what to say. He's just a complete fantasy. Yeah. Written by a brilliant middle-aged woman. And, you know, no disrespect to her. Okay. We all, I'd love to encounter,

what is my version of Keanu Reeves wandering into the, into my life out of nowhere? You know, like, we all have that thing. And I respect that she created that thing. It's a great pic. Uh, my number four is Burning, which is a 2018 Lee Chung Dong movie, um, South Korean film about, uh,

a guy who gets entrenched in a very complicated world, driven by kind of like trickster devil figure played by Steven Yeun. And it's like, it's a little bit unclear, like how much of it is actually a love triangle, but the movie is very good at focusing in on like, when you're competing against another guy, and the other guy just has moves that you don't have, and you can see the woman responding to the other guy and you're spending time together,

the three of you. Not all of these movies are about like, we're all together at the same time and fight, but they're never together at the same time. But there's a famous scene in this movie where they get high and they're sort of standing outside and they're like looking up at the sky. outside and they're like looking up at the sky. And you can see that, uh, you know, you, I, and, and Jung, Jung, so, and Steven, young, like have this very fraught chemistry together. And the movie popped into my mind immediately when I was thinking of this idea. So that's burning.

That's a good one. Okay. Number three for you. Reality bites, an absolute classic and also a real marker of your own age and your own view of the world. Because in your 20s, obviously Ethan Hawke is the choice. And then you get to your 30s, you get to your Lucy materialist phase,

and you're just like, well, Ben Stiller has a job and a car and he shows up when he says he does. And the editing wasn't that bad. Sometimes you do kind of need an editor, you know? And then now that I'm in my 40s, I'm back to it's, you got to do Ethan Hawke again. Interesting. Yeah, which is like a new, recent thing.

So you had a time where you were into Ben Stiller? Not just that, just what he represents. Not into it. I was just kind of like, that is the obvious choice. I see. That's the practical choice. Okay. You know?

If you have your Lucy materialist headset on. It's interesting though, because you are not interested in someone that I would say is artless. There is an artlessness to Stiller's character. He of course directed the movie, which is very funny that he cast himself in that part. Okay. That's cool. It's good to know. So you're back on your hawk bullshit.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, stay tuned to this podcast. Yeah, exactly. In case you wanna hear more about that. My number three is Being John Malkovich. Not a lot of movies, two women and one man. That's true. And increasingly fewer movies

about two women who wanna be together instead of with the man. A different kind of construct, but in this case, one of the women needs to go inside the body of a man. Is this a quadrangle? Or is John Cusack just fully cucked out and doesn't have any participation, so it's only between John Malkovich's body, Charlize Theron's... Or excuse me, Cameron Diaz's soul.

Yeah. And Catherine Keener's verve, desire. Right. I don't know. You know, I think John Cusack is on the outside looking in. So it is a proper triangle. Okay, being John Malakovich is three, what's your number two?

Philadelphia Story, the original, the blueprint for every single one of these. OG. Featuring Catherine Hepburn, Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart. Just, and then they're just like fighting each other while she laughs. An iconic film, also iconic Casablanca.

I'm glad you did this one. I was like, I can't do Casablanca, because I always do it. I was surprised it would be an incomplete list without Casablanca. Another interesting question of did she pick right? Famously discussed is When Harry Met Sally. Another movie that is referenced in materialists like pretty explicitly.

It is and you know in our doc you noted that like it uses that tool of into-camera confession dating stuff which is a really good point. I think the thing that I found to be so different from When Harry Met Sally versus this movie is, any time Billy Crystal talks in that movie, it's funny. He basically always has a line throughout the entire film. Yeah. And materialist doesn't work that way.

It's like none of these actors are really like, Chris Evans is kind of funny, but he doesn't have a funny part. Right. So even though it's using the tools... It's not a comedy, but in the same way that just like, when Harry Met Sally is a foundational text of people falling in love on screen and the different ways that you can do it, it is definitely intentionally referenced.

Okay, I agree with you. What's our number one? We share a number one. Broadcast news, obviously. Yeah. And, you know, I guess it's telling that our number one is the one where she picks herself. No one. That's the whole point. That is why that movie is such a magical. Is there any other movie that does that? I mean, Kelly Taylor later on. On 90210? Wow. That's quite a poll. And yeah, there are definitely some.

Between Brandon and Dylan. Jason Freely and Luke Perry? Okay, wow. Ultimately, she chooses each of them. Did you mistake me for Bill Simmons with the 90210 drop? And yeah, there are definitely some... Between Brandon and Dylan. Jason Priestley and Luke Carey? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, wow, okay. She chooses, ultimately she chooses, I mean she chooses each of them. Did you mistake me for Bill Simmons with the 90210 drop? And then, well, I mean, but Kelly Taylor choosing herself,

I think I learned about Kelly Taylor choosing herself before I learned about... Sister Carey. Yeah, no. The works of Theodore Dreiser and Edith Wharton. Well, sure, all of those things, but before I learned about broadcast news. So... Sure. Yeah, me too. What's Jenny Garth up to?

You know, I'm so glad you asked. Have you noticed that she's sponsoring the stretch of the 134 right by our house? I swear to God, like the Adopt-a-Highway thing, it just says Jenny Garth, and every time I drive by, I'm like, I want to get a picture. It's just Jenny Garth. Just Jenny Garth, not her family or not her... Like, no context. It's just Jenny Garth. Just Jenny Garth, not her family or not her... Like, no contact. It's just Jenny Garth. Should the big picture sponsor a stretch of highway?

I guess we could. But I just like, I'm driving always, so on the highway, so I can't... What stretch of highway would you want to sponsor? What's your favorite place to be stuck in traffic in Los Angeles? I mean, it would obviously be a stretch of the two for us, you know? Yeah, that's our... That is by far my favorite highway. The only good highway in Los Angeles, in my opinion. The only one that isn't fucking destroyed at all times.

Okay, this was a great exercise. We have another movie to talk about. We sure do. I'm just gonna put this out there. I know that you're not gonna like this movie. I'm okay with that and I'm ready to discuss it with you. You did text me and you said, I'm putting this movie that you'll probably hate on the schedule.

So I didn't hate it. The movie is The Life of Chuck. Yes. I'm not sure that I would call it a movie. Let's explore that. But I would just like to say that parts of whatever it was that I saw were charming to me. Okay, I'm happy to hear you say that.

I mean, most of it was, I disagree with, but, you know, I was charmed by. Interesting. Yeah. Okay, so The Life of Chuck is, as I said, written and directed by Mike Flanagan. It's based on a Stephen King novella, I guess, short story basically from his 2020 compilation,

If It Bleeds. It stars Tom Hiddleston, Chiwetel Ejiofor, Karen Gillan, Mia Sarah, Carl Lumley, Benjamin Pajak, Jacob Tremblay, and Mark Hamill. Who still cannot act. We can talk about that. It is ostensibly the story about a man named Chuck Krantz having an experience of life.

Mm-hmm. That's kind of your very vague log line. It is a classical Castle Rock production, Stephen King's story in the mold of, well, I saw it a second time at the Vista and they did the old trailers ahead of the movie. And the trailers that they showed were Stand By Me, The Shawshank Redemption and The Green Mile.

I don't think that this movie has quite the kind of like canonical importance, especially of those first two. But tonally, there is a certain kind of Stephen King story or book that is different. Hearts of Atlantis is a version of this. That is different from It, Carrie, Salem's Lot, you know, the historic horrors that he has written over time. Carrie, Salem's Lot, you know, the historic horrors that he has written over time. This one is pretty lofty and pretty unusual. And so even you even just saying, is this even a movie? I find really interesting. I actually asked Mike about that because this movie doesn't really have a protagonist. It has a nonlinear structure. It's unclear. And if you don't, if you want to see this movie and don't want to have anything spoiled for you, stop listening right now.

For the record, I liked it. It's unclear if it's a death dream, if it's a memory, if it's an anecdote that is being retold, if it is just merely like a kind of a deathbed engagement psychologically, but it opens and I don't even know if you could describe it as reverse order because it's not a linear story. Well, it does say Act Three. It is trying to signal to you that we're starting at the end here instead of the beginning. It does.

And Act Three takes place in a world that is falling apart. It is the literal apocalypse. And we were with Chutel Ejiofor's character and he is a teacher in a local school and natural disasters are occurring around the world. And it's very clear that things are, we're wrapping things up here on earth. The internet is going down. Social services is falling apart. Doctors are walking out of hospitals and abandoning patients. Stink holes are opening up. Yes. Just natural life is unable to be explored. This is a little- Pornhub is down.

Pornhub is down, my favorite part of the movie. David S. Malkin is really great. The first act of this movie is my favorite part of the movie because as I was watching the movie, and I never feel this way anymore because of the thousands of films I've seen, I was like, what the hell is going on? Where's Tom Hiddleston? Who is Chuck? Chuck has communicated in this first act as just a person on a billboard that says, I think it's like, thanks for... Thanks, Chuck, for 39 great years. 39 great years, yes. And the characters in this section seem to think he was like a bank employee of some kind who's having some sort of send off.

And then that image of him signing off starts appearing on television broadcasts, you know, on radio broadcasts. He becomes, it's clear that he is kind of the big brother of this world. And we learn pretty quickly that he's the big brother because this is all happening in his head. That this is like, this is all collections of memories, experiences, people he's met, things he thought he saw, jammed together while he's ostensibly on his deathbed. Right. How quickly do we learn that?

I think by the end of the first act. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. But not like in the first 10 minutes. It's more like 45 minutes in. I wanted to ask you how long it took you to kind of figure out what was going on here. I think once they flashed back to Tom Hiddleston on a deathbed, I was like, oh. But before that, I did not really know at all.

And I just knew that it was like one of the fanciful Stephen King things. So I was like, well, I guess anything could happen. I thought part one was pretty effective. Well, most of it, it was the most emotionally, I was stressed out. I thought the like evocation of the way the world was falling apart and how they were learning about it

and how she would tell Ege of Four in particular was thinking about it was upsetting and effective. I agree. He's such a good actor. And his... I mean, he's just like me for real, you know, watching TCM at night, drinking whiskey, trying to make sure, trying to like pretend everything's fine.

It was very relatable. Karen Gillan, another actress I like who plays his ex, and they're sort of like seeking each other out. And then we come to see that maybe she represents another person that Chuck encountered in his life at a certain point, but maybe it's like a distortion. Right, right, right. And so, seeing the film a second time, you can see that all of these figures that we meet

in this first part represent these little scraps... Okay. ...of experience of Chuck's life. And one of the reasons why I think it's so effective is I completely agree, for a low-budget independent movie to render the world falling apart in very subtle and small ways. There's no CGI in this movie.

There's no... There's a little bit at the very end of part one and it doesn't look that good, but that's okay. For the most part, it's not relying on your kind of like epic Dean Devlin style disaster movie. So I like a lot of that stuff. The film does have narration. Yeah. So I'm not typically a fan of narration in films. I'm willing to make exceptions. Nick

Offerman reads the narration. Much of it is pulled directly from the story. Yes. I wanted to ask you if you think this movie is better if you simply remove the story. Yes. I wanted to ask you if you think this movie is better if you simply remove the narration. 1000%, a disastrous choice in my opinion. And it's not just like here and there voiceover, he is reading long chucks, it is verging on audiobook. I was so angry.

And I also started dissociating at some point. I mean, it's not how I, I'm not an audiobook person. I am a, I'm a visual learner. So at some point I was like, please stop talking. I'm not even hearing you anymore, you know? And I thought, I understand that it's based on a Stephen King text, but it was doing a lot of telling of the feelings that the movie was,

and the actors were doing a much of telling of the feelings that the movie was, and the actors were doing a much better job showing. So... I kind of agree. There are a lot of times where you hear his voice and I'm like, you don't have to tell me this. Yeah. And it just goes on and on and on.

I think I would have been more on board with it if he merely was setting up each chapter for 30 seconds. Sure. Of course. The way that you get into a new chapter of a book and you can almost feel the narrator guiding you into this new section. Yeah. You know, when you're like,

if you're shifting perspectives in a Franzen novel, right? You're like, oh, now we're over here three years ago with these other people in this family. Right, right, right. That would have made sense to me. I think there is just like a real overemphasis on it, especially in the final act, we can get to that. The other thing that is just kind of

gnawing at me a little bit was that there's this great movie, um, It's Such a Beautiful Day, that Don Hertzfeld, the animator, made some years ago. It was like a collection of three shorter films that he had made and he put them together. And Hertzfeld, the animator who does everything, draws everything, also narrates the movie. And his voice is really close to Nick Offerman's voice. So I was like, does, has Mike Flanagan seen this?

Is this like an homage? Is it an accidental closeness? Because that also is a film about like, someone's life coming apart and mortality. Anyway, um... The narration just, I would add on really just like heightened... Like the TV-ness of the filmmaking a little bit for me, both, you know, more reliant on words and story,

but, you know, it's clearly shot on like some like weird mall in Vancouver and... It has an artificial quality to some of the sets. Right, and it just, and it feels a little Netflix-y, which I, you know, and so, and I just, the... Can I tell you something? Seeing it on a struck print at the Vista looked a lot better than seeing it on digital

in a screening room. I'm sure that that's true, but I think, I do think that the fact that there was just, the narration went on and on and on, and so also you're having to like pair images to it that felt a little bit filler, because you're trying to serve the words instead of the image that it just, it stuck out.

I hear what you're saying. The second act is basically like a reverie about Chuck having one magical moment where he encounters a busker on the street in what looks like a fake version of a Santa Monica Pier, I guess, the Eighth Street Promenade, is what I'm describing. No, that's like the Vancouver Mall that I was talking about. It's like an open mall or something.

But do they say where it's supposed to be? That's what I was kind of getting at. No. Okay. Um, and he encounters this busker, a woman playing drums, and he breaks out into dance. Yeah. And it's kind of an extended Gene Kelly homage.

Mm-hmm. Um, he eventually has a dance dance. Yeah. And it's kind of an extended Jean Kelly homage. He eventually has a dance partner, a redheaded woman, much like Karen Gillan is redheaded. And that's it. They dance. They create movie magic for five minutes. It's like the majority of Tom Hiddleston's screen time. Yes.

He doesn't have a lot of dialogue. They reflect on why they danced with the busker afterwards, and they split the money between them that they earned because they've drawn this incredible crowd because of this amazing dance that they perform. Mm-hmm. But that's really it. Yeah.

There is a very interesting moment at the end when Hiddleston and the redhead kind of part ways, and Hiddleston sort of has a, he's had a couple of moments of like, gentle physical distress, where he's kind of like clutching his head and you can see he's like having a bit of a spell or an episode. And I think this is kind of indicating to us like he has cancer, something's wrong, he doesn't know what it is. The narration has let us know.

Yes. Yeah, that's happening. A thing I wish they hadn't communicated. And then in the background, I don't know if you clock, well, you see that certainly the girl on roller skates who appears in the first sequence. And then I noticed that the other nurse that Karen if you clock, well, you see that certainly the girl on roller skates who appears in the first sequence. And then I noticed that the other nurse that Karen Gillan worked with was sitting at a table.

And there are all of these people that you can see, okay, all of this is like little, these little strands of his life that are being pulled into his experience. Did you think that that sequence was meant to be something that actually happened or a memory that was distorted of a day that could have been, I couldn't quite determine how we're meant to understand that.

I didn't think that hard about it, to be honest. Okay, got it. I honestly, it didn't, so I guess it didn't engage me in that level. I will say I was incredibly charred by it. It's really good. Of course, yeah, listen. Really well done. Get people dancing on screen.

I was like, oh, so this is why it won the audience award at Toronto. It's great. It's a happy-making moment in the movie. And a movie that is otherwise full of Walt Whitman and exploration of sadness. And the world ending. Yes.

In plausible ways. I like this part too. Act one, it loses me a little bit. Because I think because it is protracted and it is defined by a lot of that narration, and then you've got these long stretches of time transpiring where the the Chuck character is going from like seven to eleven and he's spending a lot of time is spent with Mia Sarah and Mark Hamill, who play his grandparents. Mia Sarah, film icon. Yeah.

Truly a magical force in movies that I think has only appeared in four films. Yeah. It was really nice to see her as beautiful as ever. Um, people, you know, listeners may know her from Ferris Bueller's day off or from, um, Oh my God. What's the other one that I'm forgetting? We were just talking about this on the Tom Cruise legend. And I thought she was very good in this movie. Mark Hamill.

I can't. Mark Hamill, you know, is an obsession amongst multiple generations of people. There are certainly the Bill Simmons, Amanda Dobbin School people that think Mark Hamill can't act, right? There are other people who think that Mark Hamill has kind of settled into grouch par excellence. You know, like that's kind of what he does. He has a very craggy voice.

He's a very famous voice actor now. For years he voiced the Joker on the Batman animated series. That's like one of his most famous performances now in his career. Um, he plays a drunken account grandpa in this movie. And when Mia Sarah's... Drunken account grandpa. Yeah, and you know, to our point about math... Yeah. ...and the balance between love and the stars,

and the cold, hard facts of decision making in Materialist, this is where these two movies kind of come and meet, and the same ways they kind of like don't quite finish to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This movie is, I wrote down that it's very wet. Some movies are dry. Okay. You know?

Yeah, I know what you mean. You know what I mean? Steve Jobs, the movie Steve Jobs, that movie is dry. Yes. It's quick, it's got pace, it barely catches its breath, it's smooth, everything flies. This movie sits in its feelings, and it's really soggy. It has so many of them. Yeah. And it wants you to cry, and you might cry.

I didn't, but it did elicit emotional reaction for me, and not just like anger that Nick Offerman wouldn't stop talking. But it does, it has that pull. It gets you in certain places. Both the cataclysmic stuff at the beginning and the dancing. There is another dance sequence. And, you know, despite myself.

You enjoyed it. Of course I did. Well, you know, despite myself... You enjoyed it. Of course I did! Well, we learn in this final sequence that Mia Sarah's character introduces Chuck to classic movie musicals, which is why we see at the beginning of the movie Chihuahua for watching the 1941 movie Cover Girl. Great Gene Kelly, Rita Hayworth movie,

Rita Hayworth, a redhead. And that movie kind of like pops up at the beginning of the movie. We see that that is... It is the least known of the all-time classics in the blockbuster stack in this movie, which I think includes West Side Story, Singing in the Rain, All That Jazz, and Cabaret. And then the fifth film that they watch is Cover Girl.

And we see that Mia Sarah's character teaches Chuck how to dance. He's pretty good at dancing. And that is kind of his superpower when he goes to middle school. And how he gets the attention of girls. And how he can kind of be his best self. That and also that maybe he can see the future. Or he at least knows the dances ahead of time. Yes, which then plays a part in the end of the movie.

And he invents the moonwalk. Is it that he invents it or that he's just copying what he's seen? That was my impression. ahead of time. Yes, which then plays a part in the end of the movie. Uh, is it that he invents it or that he's just copying what he's seen? That was my impression. Well, but... You think he invents it? Well, they have never seen it before. So I think that he has some sort of like future dance site. I hadn't considered this.

Well, I mean, the Mark Hamill character has some sort of future site. And he... He does, he does. I think, and it is like when has some sort of future site. And he does, he does. I think, and it is like when they're doing dances. I know it applies to dance. I thought it just applied to death. What, like the first dance scene, the dance class, he knows every single dance.

Like instinctively, that's how they present it. True. And it does seem like this is the 80s. It seems like it is pre-Moonwalk. And they're all like, what are you doing? So you think this movie is minority report for dancing? I mean, it's a good take. There are worse interpretations.

It's a really good take. I think I just agreed to let this movie have me. Yeah. And I think you have to do that to enjoy it. And I think it will have a pretty, it do that to enjoy it. And I think it will have a pretty, it'll be really divisive. And I think people are gonna be like, this is treacle crap. And other people are going to say, no movie touched me more than this one this year. I think, you know, it's like a lot of things with us, we constantly are

talking on the show about like, films about children that you just have a different relationship to it now because of the stage of your life here. If you've been through anything that this movie is trying to get at, you're just probably going to be a little bit more... sentimentally open to the earnestness that it is attempting. Right. Or also if you're... I mean, you're a Stephen King nerd. And so you're like, you are very open to this style of storytelling.

I am. And this strain of sentimentality and this sort of like unexplained supernatural, but it all works out. Yeah. This is the metaphysical strain. Or it doesn't work out, but you know, we all feel our feelings together.

Mm-hmm. So I think it's totally valid. I think it's also very, you know, Flanagan is really interesting. It's very much a part of his mission. This is really like in some ways maybe a movie that explains his mission. Now he makes, he's made some really gnarly horror movies, but most of those movies I find are about the distance between people, like our inability to connect.. Gerald's Game is a movie that he made that is also a Stephen King adaptation about a woman who becomes like,

who's having a sexual sort of BDSM moment with her husband. In the movie, it's Bruce Greenwood and Carla Gugino. And he handcuffs her to the bed. And then he has a heart attack and dies. And she's handcuffed to the bed and she can't move. She can't get out. And then it's sort of like everything that goes on in her mind as she thinks back on their relationship,

her life, she has this kind of like cosmic LSD style trip through these feelings. And it is a movie that is about like connectivity and its loss. This is the same thing. Um, so I, as a fan of his and as somebody, I don't really watch a lot of Netflix TV shows. I've watched all of his Netflix TV shows. I like his whole mission, his whole project.

So I found myself more open-minded. There's, like, when there's a long scene where horror icon Matthew Lillard shows up as, like, I guess, like a local, is he a construction worker? He is his neighbor. Yeah, Truett's a neighbor. And he becomes this vessel for just like reciting facts about the end of the world.

Yeah. And when you're watching the movie, you're like, how does he know all this shit? And why doesn't Truett L. Ejiofor know any of this stuff? How did this happen? Right. But then you realize that this is like, in your own mind, you've got different spaces where different pockets of information exist

and these people represent these different pockets of yourself. That's just like watching The Haunting of Hill House where in a family, like each person represents a different version, a different memory, a different experience of that family. So I think I'm very open to this movie in a way that some people won't be, which I understand. Why don't we have more dancing in movies? Well, I don't know. You don't want singing.

Yeah, they didn't really sing in this. It was great. It occurred to me while watching it, I was like, I think Amanda's gonna like this because no one broke out into song. If they sing, like, good or inoffensive songs, it would be okay. I mean, as we have discussed, most new musicals...

What's a good, inoffensive song you want sung in a movie? I mean, I don't mind singing in the rain, you know? Make Them Laugh is okay. But only songs from older musicals? You don't want like Espresso to be sung? Well, I think if the arrangement were okay, that that would be funny. But I don't really think... I guess Mamma Mia when they're singing those songs, that's part But I don't really think, I guess Mamma Mia,

when they're singing those songs, that's part of the joke. You still have not seen Mamma Mia, right? I haven't seen Mamma Mia, no. I have to tell you something about that. You just reminded me of something, but I can't talk about it on the show. Okay. What about if they just started singing Addison Rae songs?

I haven't listened yet. Have you? I have, yeah. Oh, how are they? It's fine. I think there's like a real crazy grade curve thing going on here where people are like, oh, this isn't bad. Right, right, right. An influencer made a pop album that's okay.

Perhaps we should give it a nine out of ten. And just like, same old bullshit. Yeah, I'm not that interested. I'm still with last year's pop girlies, you know? Okay, who are they? Sabrina Carpenter. Sabrina Chappell. Dua Lipa. Chappell Rohn.

And my beloved Charlie. No. Dua Lipa did it last summer's album didn't really pan out, but she's engaged. Did you see? To Callum Turner? I did. I did. Congratulations to those two really hot people. Yeah, just a slab of meat. Who just seem incredibly in love.

Two wonderful slabs of meat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She has a brain. She's got a great book club. So I've heard. Yeah. Can I? Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. yeah, yeah. She has a brain. She's got a great book club. So I've heard. Can I? Yeah, go ahead. This is important. This is actually important. This is really, this is pure Amanda material.

This is why we podcast. Is reading just reading? Yeah. Just being into reading. Yeah. Does that make you smart? Because there's a new, you see the new paradigm. They're like, oh, Kaia Gerber loves books.

Listen. Do a leap of love of books. I'm not saying they're not smart. You're like, oh, Kaia Gerber loves books. Listen. Do a leap of love. I'm not saying they're not smart. You're an avid reader. I know you're smart. That's true. But I do not, they read far more challenging material than I do at this point. Does that mean that you, does that matter?

But yeah, I, there's an ambition. To me, that's actually weirdly kind of sexist. That people are like, oh, she reads books. She must be brilliant. I mean, it is sexist. I mean, you's an ambition. To me, that's actually weirdly kind of sexist. That people are like, oh, she reads books. She must be brilliant. I mean, it is sexist. Um, you're, I mean, you're totally right, but it's more that, like, I am continually like, wow, that seems pretty heavy. And I don't know if I feel like reading that about their book choices.

Like there, there is like a seriousness and, um, like a, a level of challenge to both the Kaia Gerber and the Dua Lipa. But that's because their work is frivolous. I don't think their work is frivolous. Okay. Okay, I think what Kaia Gerber does in Bottoms is very funny and...

Would you say it is deep in searching? Would you say it is about the human spirit? It is... That's what this show is about. Hot girls have feelings too, okay? And they deserve to be explored on screen. Lord knows I respect them. I think that their reading indicates a curiosity that I admire.

Okay. And also that I'm like not... I was just like, I've... Like all the books, I'm like, well, that seems really hard. I'm going to read another Detective Donald, sorry. Has Dua Lipa read the life of Chuck? I don't think so, but I haven't either. So I'm not one to cast a judgment.

One thing that was tough was Charlie XCX on TikTok obviating the entire need for this podcast by- By doing the final destination. Yeah, I send you the content and you did not really, she's wearing a bikini. I responded. And I know she's wearing a bikini and so you were like a little distracted but that's the point you're supposed to engage with the whole picture. She's wearing a bikini drinking a cocktail talking about final destination and it was like it was like an FBI task force entrapment circumstance for me.

I know it was really really good stuff. I was like this is dangerous for me. Yeah. So yeah. She's a Leo like us. No shit. Yeah. Um, she, we should just cancel the pod. OK. Because I think, should she host it? Charlie? Yeah. She's making a film now as well.

I would love for her to accompany my co-host. Why don't you go on like a six month vacation and it'll be me and Charlie. Oh my god. Live from. I would love nothing more. Live from Tenants of the Trees. I didn't get to have my brat summer last year. We'll do it this year.

That sounds fantastic. I'm very happy for you. Quickly on Life of Chuck, before we go to Flanagan, it did win the Audience Award. Yeah. But last year, you know? So then I think... The Audience Award winner, I think, is it like 11 out of the last 13 have been nominated for Best Picture? Maybe more.

Right, but they all are either previously owned or get like, and have a release plan in place, or they get rushed out in the same calendar year. If Enora didn't exist, would this film have been nominated for Best Picture last year? Because one of the reasons why is because Neon was like, we got our contender.

We don't need to put this movie out right now. I don't think so. With respect. Do you feel it's being buried in the awards race? Um. If this was a November film, would it have done a little better? Maybe but I, I don't know. I think it's a summer feel good. I think the end knows what it's doing. Like a summer feel good movie.

And then, you know, it won the Toronto. So everyone needs to go check it out. But I don't think it's actually seriously going to be in an Oscar race. So you don't have to put up the money for that. Do you think people are going to check it out? I don't know. There were like 10 other people in the theater with me. So on, you know, 11 a out? I don't know. There were like 10 other people in the theater with me.

So on at, you know, 11 a.m. on a Wednesday. So you saw a, I saw a regular screening. Yeah. Okay. It's pretty limited release. So was everyone sobbing? No, I don't think anyone was crying. That's too bad.

Yeah. Any other thoughts? How's everything else going? You're down for the advice episode on Monday? I'm really, really excited. You know why I don't want to, I told you it's Father's Day. I really don't want to have to turn my Sunday over. I do want it on record that like, I still had an episode of prep for after Mother's Day.

Is that true? Yeah, I think so. Uh, I mean, I, I guess, no, I think it was melancholia that we did the next day. So it was like a present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe it was Tuesday. Maybe I didn't have to do any prep. Now that I'm...

You think that you thought about it? I think that, not only do I think I thought about it, I think I also thought about it in a selfish way because I had a very busy Mother's Day. So I was really not able to do any preparation. I'm scrolling back now. No, we did the mailbag, the 10 a.m. after. Yeah, we did.

I'm looking at the calendar. It's okay. A mailbag is like as low as like an advice. Maybe that's why we did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's thoughtful. Thank you so much. I don't even know if I did that on purpose.

Happy Father's Day. You never said happy Mother's Day to me on the podcast. I'm so sorry. It's okay. You're a great mother. Thanks. You're a great dad. Thanks. I feel bad that I didn't okay. You're a great mother. Thanks.

You're a great dad. Thanks. I feel bad that I didn't say it. And your girl dad view of the world is really changing all of us. So I thank you. You're mocking me, but it has changed me completely. I know it has. It's beautiful.

Completely. Yeah. I'm having an excellent time being a father recently. Yeah. She rules. She's so great. She's doing great. She is extremely selfish and is going to destroy everyone around her, but it's okay.

So are both of my children at this point? The life of children, yes. Okay, should we go to my conversation with Mike Flanagan? Yes, absolutely. Okay, let's go to my conversation with Mike Flanagan. For the first time on the show, Mike Flanagan. Very excited to speak with him today. Mike, I revisited Hush last night and I clocked the bookshelf of Stephen King novels, which

I don't think I picked up on last time I saw it. And this is obviously not your first go around with adapting Stephen's work, but did this one feel specifically different in any way? Oh, yeah. This one was very different for me from the start. I mean, when I first read the story, I thought it was different from anything I'd seen from Stephen King in a very long time.

The structure was so unique, but the thing that struck me about it was this was a story, obviously not a horror story, but a story that didn't have an ounce of cynicism to it at all. And that's just, I mean, I can count on one hand how many stories I've come across in my life that exist in that rarefied place of total earnestness.

And so it was clear to me that my approach to it would have to be radically different from any of the other work I've done. But yeah, its differences made it, I think kind of irresistible to me. Do you talk to Steven about these adaptations at all? Do you like, you know, ask permission to make changes? What is the process like?

Oh yeah, you know, he, Steve has an amazing perspective on this that he's grown over the years being adapted so much where he says the book is the book, the movie is the movie, the book is mine, the movie is yours, I will stay out of your way. And he believes, and I think he's right, that he can't lose in that equation because if the movie's terrible, people say the book is better. And if the movie's great, they say, of course it's great. It's based on a great book.

And so he keeps a very respectful distance. That said, he has an enormous amount of approvals when it comes to cast and scripts. I've gotten to talk to him a few times leading up to an adaptation. The biggest one being the conversations around Dr. Sleep and around incorporating the Kubrick kind of cinematic language into that, knowing his feelings about that adaptation. With this one, I remember the first conversation we had about it,

I said to him that I really believed if he trusted me with the material, it might be the best movie I'll ever make. And I had just gotten the rights to The Dark Tower at the time. If he trusted me with the material, it might be the best movie I'll ever make. And I had just gotten the rights to The Dark Tower at the time. And he said, I hear you. I think that sounds great. That story isn't an obvious adaptation to me. So I'm curious to hear how you'd approach it.

But I think we should just focus on Dark Tower. He doesn't like you to have more than one thing, because it means one thing isn't moving forward. And so with this one, I remember I sent him the script and he came back with no notes and was just like, go on, go make it. I can't wait to see how this works out. You made like a pretty dramatic choice though in the way that the story is structured. And I know that people have been doing this with King's work for a long time

and making strong artistic choices against the framework of his stories, but are you nervous to share with him? Like, hey, I think it should be more like this instead of the way that you conceived of this story. Oh, I thought I was, with this one, I thought I was pretty fritty in the ballpark of what he did. You know, I thought I was pretty fritty in the ballpark of what he did.

I made some additions to it, but I kept his structure intact and I changed this the least compared to Dr. Sleep and Gerald's game, I guess, would be how I would frame it. Do you see a delineation in the kinds of stories that he writes? Like this one feels very, what I would describe as like Castle Rock entertainment, like in the mold of the films

from that production company that had some relationship to his movies. Do you see the, like, a bifurcation in any way? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely kind of the Steve who wrote, you know, Stand By Me, Shawshank, both Castle Rock, you're talking about. The Green Mile, you know, where he's really kind of letting the genre elements take a back seat

to the human story he's telling. And then there's, you know, there are, yeah, Steve contains multitudes as do we all. So I definitely see the difference. I think though there's an incredible commonality to it in that Stephen King, regardless of whether he's doing Pet Sematary, which is one of the scariest and darkest stories

I've ever read in my life, or Hearts in Atlantis, which is one of the most gentle, both of them are about the decisions we make based out of love. And no matter how dark the story is, that is always kind of the engine. So I think one of the things that's amazing to me is to see how many different expressions of this idea,

this humanism Stephen King is capable of creating. It makes it really exciting as a constant reader and as a fan of his to kind of never really know what we're in for, but to only know that there's an emotional honesty to it that's gonna kind of connect it to everything else. So yeah, I feel the distinctions that you're referring to for sure.

But I think as I've gotten older, I zero in much more on the common threats kind of underneath them. So for you as a filmmaker, why was this the right time in your life to adapt a story like this? And to, you know, I guess it's a pivot in some ways from the work that you've done previously in genre. Very much it is. I think the answer to that, there's always the crazy circumstances that

have to come together for you to make any project. So there's a certain amount of that that's never in my control. But what makes me very glad about the fact that I was able to do this movie when I was is that I've got three kids. They're 14, eight, and six. When I first read this, it was 2020, April 2020, and the COVID lockdown was brand new. And my kids were looking to me for some kind of answers and reassurance

while I tried to pretend I wasn't utterly, utterly terrified of what was happening around me. And looking at them, wondering what kind of world they were gonna inherit. That really touched on an incredible parental anxiety that I'd never felt before. But the story that Stephen King wrote also gave me an enormous amount of hope and gratitude.

And so I think this movie came around at the right time in my life because my entire motive in trying to get it to the screen was that I wanted it to exist in the world for my kids when they hit that inevitable feeling that I had in 2020, that I have again now, that the world is coming off its wheels and that finding joy, connection, and love, and optimism is more important than ever.

So this just happened to coincide with a time when I don't know that it was ever more important to me to feel those things and to grab onto them myself for my kids. As a viewer, there's another commonality with that period in time for me, which is there's this... I had not read the story before I saw the film, and so there's just this tremendous disorientation

that you feel through at least the first two acts of the movie. And, you know, just the way that you've chosen to make it and being faithful to King's story, it's hard to tell whether it's a series of memories or dreams or visions or reveries, or what are we actually experiencing in the way that you've kind of like set us off balance for our movie watching expectation?

Can you kind of talk about how you, the intentional choices that you made to keep us in, I assume that's the space you wanted us to be in, but how you actually were able to execute on that? Oh, absolutely. I had a similar feeling when I read the short story. You know, and we approach it a little differently in the movie, but I had felt reading it like I had been thrown face first into this reality that all the other

characters had already caught up with and gone through the various stages of grief and acceptance. There's no context to that. And the thing is, that more than anything mirrors my experience of the world right now. The context that we are reaching for is coming from media we can't trust. It's coming from social media that contradicts itself. The idea of truth and of all these grounding forces that would help us orient ourselves in reality have all been ripped away or distorted.

So I feel that way today. I feel that disorientation way too frequently. The idea for this was to plant the audience in that space of that chaos and gradually lead them to peace, to optimism, to hope through joy, and through mourning and sadness too, where appropriate. I think King balances those really well

and we tried to replicate that. But the way we would approach it was actively avoiding getting into expository dialogue that would orient us, only offering a little bit. Every scene had a new piece of information about this world, but nobody had the whole picture. And by the time we kind of realize what might be happening, the world that we've been presented with is already ending.

That feeling that time's too short, that you never really get your feet under you, resonates with me a lot. The other thing that really sticks out to me when I think back on the movie is, it doesn't really have a protagonist. It has a title character. Yeah. And it certainly has a title character. Yeah.

And it certainly has a through line in Chuck. But it's so unusual, even beyond your traditional ensemble, like the series that you made for Netflix, they're big ensemble pieces and they have multiple characters. At times, you're kind of clinging to just the idea of existence and experience throughout the movie, rather than a person, which I found to be such a, just a cool choice.

And I was wondering how you thought about that and just kind of maintaining a narrative film without having that thing to lean on that you often do. It was really fascinating to watch incredible actors come in and make an incredible impact in short bursts of time. Because you're right, there is no clear protagonist in this. Chiwetel kind of is that protagonist in the beginning, but that gives way.

And I think that's interesting because it speaks to the theme of the multitudes that we all contain. There's no one particular version of me that is the main one, that is the protagonist of my life. And I think we're all this kaleidoscope of different people. And we're informed by this kaleidoscope of different people. What I love about it is it gives the audience a chance

to put themselves in the story more than trying to hang their identity on a particular character. Chuck's kept at a distance. You're right, he's the title character, but certainly not the protagonist. You know, even though I think by the time Benjamin Payjack is on screen, it feels the closest to feeling like, oh, that's our protagonist, but he's not there for an hour. You know, this is a very interesting and very strange way to tell a story. interesting and very strange way to tell a story. Chuck is specific, but Chuck is also meant to be all of us.

And we're meant not to be hanging on the events of his life so much as thinking about the events of ours. And withholding a clear protagonist allows us to do that. It allows us to immerse ourselves in these different vignette-y moments and start to experience it as the kaleidoscope it is. I think that's closest to how we experience life. Certainly not how we're taught to make movies.

So it was completely uncharted territory for me and for the cast, but it was really incredibly rewarding for that. I found it uniquely engaging and I really liked how you executed on it. Um, I wanted to ask you about the thin line between coriness and sincerity. Sure. And how do you tight rope walk it with material like this? Yeah.

And that was something we knew going in was always going to be the tight rope, you know, that we would be walking and that ultimately we would never get a consensus on, on the other side of it because all of us are in a different place when it comes to that. The rule of thumb that I tried to embrace was to never be cynical, to never be dishonest, and to never try to make anyone feel anything. I had certain feelings reading the story. I was having emotional reactions contemplating the story. It was important to me that the movie never tried to manipulate.

And I think that's the big difference. With the Newton brothers with the score, we talked about avoiding manipulative scores. I don't think there's a minor key in it because we didn't want to say this is sad, this is hopeful. We wanted an emotional optimism that carried us throughout, but whether it was death we're watching or whether it was a moment of pure innocence and joy, it was kind of operating on the same baseline. I think we live in a very cynical world, and I can very easily understand how stories that are this earnest may not resonate with everyone.

In a lot of ways we have our guards up, we have to. There's a level of cynicism that's required to survive in this world. But it's so rare for me to, some of my favorite films I've seen through my life, these rare movies that don't have that cynicism, to be able to make something like that, I just felt like if I ever felt like I was pushing it or lying or trying to force someone to feel something, then we were doing it wrong. It was really just about putting it out there as authentically and honestly as we could.

Hiddleston approached it, I remember the word that leapt to my mind when I saw him come to set, was that Tom approached it with incredible humility. And that, I think, was our North Star for this. I hope it resonates with people. And that, I think, was our North Star for this. I hope it resonates with people. Historically, films that do engage in that level of earnestness can certainly go both ways.

It's a brave act, yeah, to be heartful in a movie in 2025. It is. And I was grateful to see that that courage was brought to set every day by my cast, because they're the ones, they're the ones who sell it. It was, I think, an incredibly brave story for Stephen King to include in this volume full of horrors, with If It Bleeds, which is a wonderful collection,

but this is very different. And so yeah, it is a fine line. I hope we landed on the right side of it. That'll be up to the individual viewer. Mike, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? You're a cinephile. You're on Letterboxd. I know you are. The last great thing I saw was Ryan Coogler's Sinners.

Tell me what you liked about it. I loved it so, so much. I saw it three Coogler's Sinners. Tell me what you liked about it. I loved it so, so much. I saw it three times, twice in IMAX. And there are moments of pure genius in that movie. There's an incredible musical number that dropped my jaw in theater and reminded me why I saw it in in a sold out theater in a large format and it reminded me, I love these reminders that come along every so often about what makes that experience

so profound and unique and different than the one you get at home or the one you get on streaming or the one you get even in a theater that isn't populated. But yeah, that's the last great thing I saw. It really knocked me out. Great recommendation. Mike, I'm a big fan of your work.

Thanks for doing the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thanks to Mike Flanagan. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. On Monday, we are officially doing it. Confirmed. 9.30 a.m. PDT, 12.30 p.m. EST.

We are going live on YouTube. Why'd you say PDT and then EST? That's how you're supposed to do it. Really? Yes. Standard and then Pacific Daily? Yes. Okay, well who decided that? I don't know the answer to that question,

but you are messing with our plug right now. Why? It just sounds confusing. We are going live on YouTube, on the Ringer Movies channel to do Amanda's advice corner. Yeah, and you just saw some of the incisive questions that will be asked as we solve your problems together. So if you wanna chat with us and more specifically get Amanda's deepest, darkest thoughts

about how we delineate time in this country. Hop on to YouTube at 9 30. You can ask us some movie questions if you want. Yeah. But I would say if there are things in your life that you need clarified, this is the gal for you. We'll see you then. Thanks for watching!