The Big Picture - Michel Gondry Reunites With Jim Carrey in ‘Kidding’ | The Big Picture (Ep. 83)

Episode Date: September 7, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey sits down with with Michel Gondry to discuss his long career in film and reteaming up with Jim Carrey 14 years after ‘Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind’ to create the upcoming Showtime series ‘Kidding.’ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Miller Lite, hold true. Personally, I don't necessarily understand the jokes. I should not say that. Yesterday at the premiere, I was wondering why people were laughing sometimes. I think it's more important to have something believable than to get people to laugh. I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture,

a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. Some directors can see magic, no matter the format, the platform, or the story. Michel Gondry sees magic in a concert documentary with Dave Chappelle, a sci-fi love story, or the public intellectual Noam Chomsky. As a filmmaker, the Frenchman has made such beloved and uniquely Gondrian works as Be Kind, Rewind, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Now he's making a move to television and reuniting with his Eternal Sunshine star Jim Carrey on the new Showtime series, Kidding. Gondry is one of the great visual creators of his generation, and I spoke with him about working in a new medium, the stakes of his career now,

and where he still needs to go. Here's Michel Gondry. I'm just overjoyed to be joined by Michel Gondry. Michel, thank you for coming in to talk to me today. Sure. Thanks for having me. Sir, you've made a lot of films, and films of different kinds, different genres. You've kind of blown up the format a lot. But you've never really leaned into a television format. And this is sort of your first big entree into TV, the show Kidding.

What led you to working on this project? I had done years ago one episode of this series, Flight of the Concorde, which I loved and I found it hilarious. Kidding is my first big experience in television. What made you want to do it? I don't know. I mean, I was proposed to do it. And the story by Dave Holstein was really engaging, very original, but something,

a simple concept that leads to complexity and richness, which is the best. And of course, the participation of Jim Carrey. And the idea to do television. I mean, it's true that now television is evolving and there is more series and movies, nearly. I still want to do more movies, but I think I'm happy I did it. Had you been offered big series work like this before and turned it down and something had changed,

or was this just the right project? This was the right project. I'm not sure I was offered many series to do. So a lot of people, you know, one of your best known films is obviously

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. You worked with Jim on that film. Did you and Jim have a relationship in the time since you guys

finished working on that to now or was this sort of like a true reunion? No, we kept in touch. Yeah? I would visit him

and we would meet. I mean, I would say a and we would meet. I mean, I would say a couple of times a year, but we saw each other getting older. Mm-hmm.

When we started to work on Kidding, we started right where we left an internal sunshine. And that was really

productive and very special. Yeah, I was wondering if he had changed at all as a performer to you, because obviously he has talked a lot about changing, and he's in a different phase of his career in terms of his relationship to things like fame and the kinds of roles that he takes, and I think that role in Eternal Sunshine was a bit of a turning point for him as well. But when you were actually working together,

did you sense that he had changed as a performer in any way? Well, already when I met him, I didn't see him for at least six months, and I could feel that he was not in a very light or happy place. I mean, his difficulties let appear little glimpse of melancholy depth and sadness that I know I'm going to use for his character.

So that was my impression. I said, okay, I don't really feel sorry for him, especially when I invite him in his home. It's a nice place, I bet. Last time I went there, we were having dinner or lunch, and I need to get to the bathroom, and I say, can you show me the bathroom? He said, oh, you have one really close right there.

And it took me five minutes to get there. I'm sure it's a palatial estate. But so if he's in a little bit of a stormier place, it's better for the work, for the part, especially because this character that you guys are building is a complicated figure. You know, like, he's a children's show host who's experienced great loss

and feels like he's essentially having a nervous breakdown of some kind. Yes, but if you look at his career and his life, it's like a roller coaster. I mean, not his career in terms of success,

but in terms of genre of films he chooses. So he has everything. And as he grow older, he accumulate more experience in life. Of course, like everyone. And all this gives me more material to, to play, to work with. So when I see him in a more difficult stage, I think that's how it should be when he's in real life

and he has difficulty to get heard. And when I think of a moment where he is funny, he makes jokes, I think, okay, here is Mr. Piccolo in the show. Yeah, it's an interesting role for him

because he almost has to be so many of the aspects that he has been in his career. You know, he actually has to be that light, fun, bright-eyed figure when he's making the show. But then when he's off camera, he's really reconciling with some real darkness, right? Yep, yeah. What was it like to kind of make a show within a show?

I feel like a lot of the work that you do is, you know, has a sort of almost like a meta quality or there's like a construction inside of the thing that you're working on. This felt like such a perfect fit. Was it fun to try to build something inside of the thing you were making? Yes, I think I like to show the process, how things are made. It's an important part of my life. So it's easier for me to show it, like for any director.

It's like a writer, they write about writer. Director, they write about director. They shoot about director. Because it's our experience. So this part was easy. And also, the world created for children was exciting, too. And what was important for me was to do it as sincerely as possible

not to do an aesthetic on characters that would be what an adult think a child like but really as if the child had made it

technically a little more precise. This is sort of a year of Mr. Rogers in America because of the Mr. Rogers documentary. And so I feel like this concept of making a show for kids is strangely at the top of a lot of people's minds. And the Mr. Pickles character, I think, will actually resonate more, even though he's a more tragic figure than Mr. Rogers. Have you seen that film that documentary film are you familiar with Mr. Rogers and his

yes I mean I was not before I came here I don't think we have anyone like that in France but it was important for me

that we don't get stuck to to Mr. Roger. It's very peculiar. And I thought that Jim was maybe more interesting. He doesn't play the same role with his audience, but I got some idea of what from Mr. Roger we would need for our story, but I really didn't want to take more than that. I told Jim, please don't watch Mr. Roger's tape. I don't like biopics and people who mimic existing characters.

I feel it's like if the actor was wearing a mask, so you don't feel really the depth. So I wanted to forget about that, but it's hard because there is a common element. It's interesting. I mean, I think I could completely understand why you're making it, why that would be an impediment.

But on the other hand, I do think oddly it gives it a kind of resonance too because we're thinking about figures like that while watching the show. You mentioned that it's important to you to sort of show the making of things. And what is it about that? There is this sort of almost like construction paper quality

where things are coming together in your work. And we see that on the screen. Why is that important to you? When I was a kid, we didn't have a show like Mr. Roger. We had more animated. So this show were like little furry puppets and you could tell how it was made.

Like let's say it was a river. It was with a cellophane that was crumpled and it was moving at each frame. So you could tell how it was made and you really, at least me, wanted to go in your room and do the same. And I always love that because it's stimulating. You see how it's made, so you want to make.

And it doesn't take away the magic or the imagination. And if you will, there is a comparison that's a bit of a stretch, but it's like the punk movement, where all those guys and girls came to the stage and had no idea how to play the instrument, and they made music that make people jump. They make they make you want to do a band. Like the first concert of the Sex Pistols, there were 20 or 40 people in the audience, and 40 of them started a band. So coming back to the craft and why it's nice to see it, it's stimulating for the viewer to go and find its own creativity.

That's interesting. Do you have people come up to you and say, because I was able to understand how you did some of the things that you did that I wanted to then make films in that same way that somebody who saw the Sex Pistols was like, I could do that. I could make that song. I think so. I've done stuff that are very technical and people were more saying,

I have no idea how you did that. A lot of people of a certain age come to me and they say, I grew up watching your video and that's why I'm a director. I have a lot of... It's very glorifying for me to inspire people to do this job. It's a certain type of work that inspires them, but the idea that you can do it, even if you have no idea, you can.

It's very important to me. I do those factories, it's called Home Movie Factories, and it's a little, I mean, it's not little, it's quite important to me. I do those factories, it's called Home Movie Factories, and it's a little, I mean, it's not little, it's quite big, actually. It's a sort of a system that we move from town to town, and we build a set,

a mini set, with five, I mean, 15 or 20 little locations. We give a camera to a group of people and they write stories together. They have a shooting map and then they shoot their story

and they watch it right away. It's so nice to see the joy of people watching some things they made themselves. I want to ask you about that specifically in your career too because you've made

a lot of different kinds of movies and some of them have been in Europe some of them have been in Hollywood the formats that you've used are very

you've made documentaries you've made films that have a lot of animation in them you know at this stage what kinds of films do you want to make

and feel most comfortable making and I'm also just kind of curious about how you feel about some of those different stretches of your career.

More or less, what do you want to be making right now? I will start by the other part of the question. Because when you were asking me the question, I realized why. And people ask me why I shoot movies in many different countries. And I think it came from doing videos. Videos is a sort of globalization I mean especially of course since MTV and so I went to shoot

everywhere and I remember meeting a guy in middle of Texas for commercial edit for E-Vice and he knew my videos and I thought it was cool that I would never have any connection with this guy commercial edit for E-Vice. And he knew my videos and I thought it was cool that I would never have any connection

with this guy. And he knew my videos. So I think it led me to be able to work in different countries. Yeah. If anybody doesn't own that Palm Pictures collection

of all of your music video work, that's like one of the great DVDs. I love that set so much of the stuff that you've made. Do you still make music videos? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What is your relationship

to them at this point? Oh, it's great. After a movie, for instance, to do a video, it's refreshing, it's faster. to do a video. It's refreshing. It's faster. I can use an idea that's too absurd or crazy

to fit in a feature film. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You know, at The Ringer, we are always hiring. We have a bunch of jobs open right now. If you go to our jobs page, you can check those out. But there are some things you don't want to do when you're hiring a new employee.

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different ways to shoot but if you have a bad story you can do the best light and effect possible it stinks there's no way around is there a certain kind of story that you look for are you looking for a love story or does it not matter

it can be anything because you've made some movies that are hard to describe, some that are fairly straightforward. Does there have to be a kind of complexity to it? I think more importantly is I need to like the characters. I went to see a movie a few, maybe last year, with a guy who works in Wall Street. He sleeps with a lot of prostitutes. He takes a lot of coke and he's mean.

And I wondered after, it was very well crafted, but I would not be able to do it. And I did wonder after, why would I spend two hours of my life to look, to watch a guy that is completely uninteresting, mean and I have no

identification possible with him and he's basically the stupid mean idiot. So that answers the question. I would not spend two hours to watch it, so I don't want to spend two years to make a movie about that.

So that's important for me, that I have a bit of compassion for the main character. There are some television shows that are very well directed, that have a defined visual style and are thought to be masterfully done, but very few, not that many. And I was wondering how you attempt to put sort of your visual imprimatur on a TV show, which is often made differently, not just because of the showrunners, you say, but because of kind of the vagaries of the business. Was it any difficult at all to make a Gondry thing?

Well, I never think, okay, I'm going to do a Gondry thing, if anything. I want to make something, the most known Gondry as possible because I want to renew myself and do things differently. And if there is a link, I should not be aware of it. It should be people joining the dots. But I postponed all these aesthetical decisions until nearly the last day. Really? I focused on the story, the character, and then the puppets.

And then we had a conversation with the director of photography, Sean Kim. We eventually made a decision to shoot it a little bit darker. I don't think I will describe the decision we made because it may be a little cliché or obvious. We didn't want to make it too much TV with close-up, medium, wide shot for each character. We tried to make things a bit different because it's going so fast on television that you can very easily

become lazy and just do the minimum. And also, you make sure everybody gets every joke. Personally, I don't necessarily understand the jokes.

I should not say that. Yesterday at the premiere, I was wondering why people were laughing sometimes. But I think it's a good thing because I don't want to find excuses or brag, but it's more fluid. I shoot it more fluidly because I don't feel, okay, I have to hit the mark. So, okay, if we miss one joke, I think it's more important to have something believable and touching than to get people to laugh. Of course, when you're in a theater, you're happy when people laugh, but that's not necessarily how they remember the movie,

how they will be touched by the movie. It's interesting. I mean, there are some differences there in terms of even if you're completely locked into the material or not, knowing what notes to give your actors is important. Frank in particular, Catherine Keane is wonderful and Jim is of course great,

but his character jumps off the screen. He feels like a new kind of person that we haven't seen before. I think Dave Holstein, the showrunner, really told me once I could hear Frank talk for hours. Yeah. And I told him, yeah, I can see that. And I felt he was talking too much. He's great.

Well, okay, last question. I end every show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen. So what is the last great thing that you have seen? Well, I want to see Black Clank Man. Yeah, Spike Lee's new film. Spike Lee's new film. Really like it.

And what really made me happy is to show dw griffith for what he is sort of a horrible racist or glorified kagak's clan and uh he's always in the list of the 10 best director for all the critics in the world and nobody is gonna say but he was a horrible racist. It's like, it's not Hitler, but it's like Hitler made a movie and everybody praised him.

Like people want to separate art from humanity or morality. I mean you could say that from Lenny Riefenstahl Lenny Riefenstahl yeah

so it's a complex problem but for Griffith it's so obvious that it's shocking that nobody ever talked about that so

I really want to thank Spike Lee to to show the reality. It's an amazing thing. The movie is as much about the ideas as it is about filmmaking.

Even the opening with Gone with the Wind and that big shot. He is obsessed with that idea. No, it's important. I never do quotes, but this one I know. It's Marco Ferrari, the Italian director. He was saying,

my movies are bad, but at least they talk about something. Hopefully that's not the case with this conversation. I cannot do the Italian accent, I'm sorry. Michel Gondry, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. For more on movies, please go to TheRinger.com. I wrote a long story about the director Hal Ashby. There's a documentary about

his life and work called Hal out in theaters. I highly recommend that as well. And if you want to read more about the movies and theaters this weekend, check out Adam Naiman on The Nun, the new horror movie in the Conjuring universe. That's TheRinger.com. Check it out now.