The Big Picture - ‘Mickey 17’ and the Bong Joon-ho Movie Rankings

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

After a brief discussion of the A24-inflected ‘Thunderbolts*’ trailer that dropped over the weekend (0:45), Sean and Amanda dive into Bong Joon-ho’s eighth feature film, ‘Mickey 17’ (4:15). They discuss its often uneven tone, how the film fits into Bong Joon-ho’s body of work, Robert Pattinson’s incredible performance and lack of movie star persona, and some of their favorite scenes. Then, they rank all eight of Bong Joon-ho’s feature films (49:32). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producers: Bobby Wagner, Chia Hao Tat, Sasha Ashall, and Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons letting you know that we are covering the White Lotus on the Prestige TV podcast and the Ringer TV YouTube channel every Sunday night this season with Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson. Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions so you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app. Subscribe to the Prestige podcast feed. Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel. And don't forget, you can also watch these podcasts

on Spotify. White Lotus, let's go. Join the high volume trend with YSL Love Shine Plumping Lip Oil Gloss. Formulated for maximized volume and 24 hour hydration, this gloss delivers a non-sticky, ultra-thin, glass-like additive texture in every shade, from bold berry reds and pinks to breathtaking nudes.

Shine on with YSL Love Shine Plumping Lip Oil Gloss. Visit YSLBeauty.ca to elevate your lip game now. Hey, it's DJ First Dibs. I noticed you've been listening to a lot of summer vibes lately. I get it. You're dreaming about vacations. Ooh, baby, that's my jam. With Sunwing's first dibs on summer savings, let us curate something stronger than what

you've been listening to. Because while your playlist screams, I need a vacation, my algorithm suggests book before March 30th. Remember, Sunwing, save more, do more. Book with your local travel advisor or at sunwing.ca. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbin. And this is the big picture, a conversation show

about Mickey 17, Bong Joon Ho's long awaited followup to Parasite hit theaters last week. We are diving deep into it. What works, what doesn't, more than we're going to rank all eight Bond directed features. But first, Amanda, I just asked you to watch a trailer sitting right next to me as we often do at this time. I know it's one of your favorite Monday morning activities. Did you watch that trailer?

I didn't. I'm going to watch it right now next to you. The trailer I should watch is the A24-inflected trailer for Thunderbolts, asterisk, a new MCU movie that you think looked bad in the Super Bowl trailer. Yes. And now you've seen this new version and you think, what? I think this is your fault. And like, and I wonder, how do you feel watching it?

Like, do you feel indicted? Like, do you see all the marketing and financial forces like swirling around to make this thing that like you kind of did? Yeah, I would say my influence is vast. Yeah, OK. No, I mean, this is, I thought, a very funny move by Marvel. A self-aware move by Marvel to realize

that they have lost those of us who were sitting on the fence between the A24 bros and the MCU stands. You know, there were a few of us who were on board with both ideas, living concurrently. A lot of those of us have jumped away from the Marvel side of the fence in the last four or five years.

And so this is a kind of nod to that loss, I think in some ways. Also just the fact that the MCU is not cool right now. There's kind of nothing cool about it. And so it's an attempt to identify some cool, at least in this Thunderbolts property. Worked for me. Gastefelstein, huge look for Gastefelstein,

the German dance music artist who I was exposed to first by Kanye West and I won't say anything else about that. Great. Thank you. I thought the trailer was funny. I've always thought this movie looked not bad. I thought that it was funny. I wouldn't say that any of, like, the content,

the clips of the movie changed, like, my anticipation of the movie in any way. I mean, I like all of those people. Yeah, good actors. That's Lewis Pullman, right? It is, yeah. Bob. Do you know that he's dating Kyia Gerber? I do know.

And did you know that Bill Pullman was outside of... He went to see Kyia Gerber's play this weekend. Oh. What is she performing in? I don't remember the name of it. It's somewhere here in Los Angeles. Did she write it? No, but she's in it. I believe this was the last weekend, but...

Is it like a streetcar named Desire? No, it's not. I think it was like, but she's in it. I believe this was the last weekend. Is it like a streetcar named Desire? No, it's not. I think it was like, it was some new theater. Kyger was taking risks, okay? In the literary and theatrical space. Absolutely. She has so much to lose. Well, I just think... But honestly, like, the parents of the boyfriend went to the theater this weekend.

I just thought that was notable. I enjoy Lewis Pullman's work. I would say that's an impressive poll for him, Guy Gerber, and maybe Thunderbolts will be equally impressive. Maybe not. I think it's pretty funny that we don't know what to do anymore, you know? I like it. Like, it's funny.

They're, like, in on the joke, and then 824 retweeted it with, like, a euphoria meme that I had to Google, but I laughed at that too. No feedback on the cake, but that's okay. Oh, they haven't hit you up on the materialist cake? I haven't heard from anyone at A24 about the materialist cake. What do you think that's about? I mean, I really don't know. Maybe they're baking it, you know?

A lot of layers. Absolutely. And so that does take time. That classic 96-hour bake, we know about those. That's all the news I have for you. I'm sure something between when this episode is finished recording and we publish, something meaningful will happen. But otherwise, let's just dive right back into Mickey 17.

Bong Joon-Ho was on the show last week talking about all the things he did to make this movie. I don't know why I'm allowed on the same episode as Bong Joon-Ho. I really don't. It was great. It was great. Bong was great. Sharon Choi, his longtime translator on these American stints, was great. This is Bong's eighth feature film. It is written by him and solely by him, I should note.

It's an adaptation of the 2021 novel Mickey Seven by Edward Ashton. Stars Robert Pattinson. Perhaps you've heard of him. Naomi Ackie, Steven Yeun, Tony Collette, Mark Ruffalo, Holiday Granger, Anna Marie, Vartula May, Patsy Farron, big international cast. He's gotten really good at assembling these huge international casts,

especially as I've gone back and looked back at his movies recently. This is kind of something that he really likes to do with these American productions. The movie's story is very simple and yet very complex. A classic sci-fi comedy cloning tale about a human expedition to colonize the ice world called Niflheim. After one iteration of Mickey dies, a new body is generated with most of his memories intact

and his body is fully 3D printed so that he may be exposed to the terrors of Niflheim to test vaccines on him, to explore the world and make him the crash test dummy for this expedition. What'd you think of Mickey 17? I... I was practicing the setup to this on the way in. Um, I really, I liked it and didn't get it and don't care.

Does that make any sense? Sure, yeah. Yeah, and we're such an interesting time in terms of, I mean, movies, but also big budget filmmaking and things with money where it's like, I would like to see this, a movie like this, and then like every week compared to what we are offered. And it feels like it is in such a different category and so cool.

And once again, as we often say with Steven Soderbergh, I just like it when people try things. Some of this totally works and was really exciting for me. Some of it I didn't quite follow, as I said. I think that given the baggage of this movie in particular and its release, and then we'll talk about some of the politics of it and just, you know, the big idea of Oscar winning directors, like next movie for Warner Brothers

and concern trolling about how he should or should not do whatever. I'm hesitant to even say like, well, I didn't get all of it, but that's okay. Like, you know, it would be nice to live in a world where we could just talk about how, like, how cool and interesting movies from great filmmakers do and don't work all of the time without all of the context. But we can't because of everything

that is surrounding this movie. Yeah, I think it would be an interesting blind taste test or if you showed this movie to audiences who were fond of Bong but didn't know he made it, whether they would be able to locate that. I think that they would. Yes, absolutely. I think it has a lot of his signatures

and hallmarks as a filmmaker. And, you know, how they feel about it versus your general moviegoer who maybe doesn't, isn't like a cinephile, doesn't know as much about a director like him. I think people are always gonna be willing to afford more grace to a director, taking chances like this,

when they have this body of work that supports it. And it also feels very thematically coherent, I think with a lot of the stuff that he's done. I liked it, I liked it, I didn't love it. I think it's kind of in a quartile of Bong movies that we'll talk about as we get into the rankings, where it's like, he doesn't have any bad films. All of his films I think are's kind of in a quartile of Bong movies that we'll talk about as we get into the rankings, where it's like, he doesn't have any bad films. All of his films, I think, are engaging and smart

and beautifully made. I think this is kind of that second tier where he's reaching for something that he maybe doesn't totally have his arms around, or he's like reaching for something and grabbing it and holding it a little too tight. Um, but I think as post-Oscar blank checks go, this is a very funny one.

Yeah, that's the... I mean, everything about it is cool. And what he does in terms of world-building genre, directing actors, honestly, like, creatures and sci-fi stuff is all so, like, next level and accomplished. Uh, and I think a thing that we'll take for granted in this conversation, but like, we shouldn't because you and I see so much Drek where none of that is nailed down at all.

And we have to talk about like, oh, well, like why did they forget the water bottle in that shot or whatever? And we're not doing that. So we're able to talk about things like themes and pacing and the idea of satire and, you know, and that's awesome. But my hesitance is like... It feels like it is a non-level playing field because...

His bar is higher. Yeah, his bar is higher, but I feel protective of it also because... I don't want us, these conversations kind of like go out into the world and then suddenly it's like, oh, you know, we're dissecting it at the same level that we're dissecting Captain America, whatever the fuck. Okay, I want to talk about the details of the movie,

but this prompt popped into my head as you were talking, which is that, you know, the movie didn't have a great box office over the weekend. Not terribly surprising when you consider the circumstances in full. But if the movie had made $80 million over the weekend instead of $18 million, would you feel differently about how you're characterizing your sort of semi-support

of the movie because then you'd feel like, well, it's a hit, so it doesn't need me to be like, this is okay, please, studios, keep trying to make movies like this. This stuff really matters to us. I guess so, though, would 80 million be enough? You know? Like, is there, like, we live in hell, right? So there is no enough. And, you know, the conversation already this Monday morning

was about, like, why do you care about corporate box office, like bottom lines and all this stuff, which like I fucking don't, you know? I have to agree with Todd Phillips on that one, which is the only time I'll ever say that sentence. But it, things are so dire in terms of filmmakers and like artists actually having means to do something big. And so to even criticize it a little,

like, it just kind of seems like we're missing the... Not missing, like... People are going to interpret it differently. Do you know what I mean? And that's a bummer. Yeah, I think it is, but... What are you going to do? We'll be honest, you know? This is a really cool And that's a bummer. Yeah, I think it is, but... What are you gonna do? We'll be honest, you know? This is a really cool movie that is also very flawed.

Um, and we can talk about that. The interesting balance of tone, I think, is really challenging. It reminded me a lot of Terry Gilliam movies and Paul Verhoeven movies and a little bit of John Carpenter. He's talked a lot about the thing and the run-up to this movie, at least in terms of the setting. This feels very close to the thing, but the thing is, despite the kind of gore and extravagance

of the gore of that movie, a dead serious movie, this movie is not really very serious. It's very daffy. It's almost slapsticky at times. Right. So, is this movie a comedy? Um, I kept writing satire and you kept writing notes like, is this a satire? And asking whether it's a farce. And I think it's somewhere in between.

Yeah, and I think like our inability to answer that question is sort of, you know, what we're circling around and in terms of it's trying to do a lot of different tones and trying to nail down a lot of different types of comedies and every kind of, not every character, but there are sort of two to three movies within it of comedies and every kind of, not every character, but there are sort of two to three movies within it that are operating on slightly different wavelengths. Yeah, I think like this film is not nearly as good

as the movie I'm going to cite, but Ernst Lubitsch's To Be or Not To Be, which is about a small group of people inside of a big international story that is like very silly on the small part, but very serious on the big part. It feels like a little bit of a model for this. And I think you would call To Be or Not To Be a satire. It is farcical in terms of the way that the story is told,

but the big ideas of this movie, which is essentially about... a church slash corporation that ideas of this movie, which is essentially about a church slash corporation that is funding this expedition to seemingly terraform an alien planet and make it a new destination for humanity in the somewhat near future, 2051, I want to say, is the year that this movie is set. And this expedition requires manpower and bodies to make it happen. And so Kenneth Marshall, who is a former elected figure in the US government,

who has now lost two consecutive elections, has shifted his allegiances to this company and he is the leader of this new expedition and has taken, you know, fancied himself a kind of Godhead figure. And so he's assembling all of these people to do this work. But the movie is very tightly focused on Mickey. And Mickey volunteers to be one of these expendables,

is what they're called. Somebody who will be killed over and over and over again and reprinted over and over and over again to help the expedition in some ways. But also, he has love in his heart and he has sex with a companion and he makes friends and he goes on journeys and he's also running from something, which is one of the reasons why he volunteers himself.

And so Robert Pattinson is doing a kind of like Buster Keaton slash Jim Carrey-esque physical performance inside of a movie that has like a lot of gray dark shadow and serious political implications. And so there's a purposeful has, like, a lot of gray, dark shadow and serious political implications. And so there's a purposeful clash of tone, but that doesn't always work as well as you want it to in the movie. Yeah.

And I... Not only is he doing something different from... most of the other people in the movie, he is, spoiler alert, playing several different versions of Mickey himself. And so he's doing different tones within his own character, which is very cool and impressive. And to me, I mean, he is like the reason to see the movie.

Like, I loved it. I love Robert Patton as an actor. You're watching something like weird and magical anytime he's on the screen in this movie. And anytime he's even like doing the voiceover, which, you know, the first part of the movie and the end of the movie rely pretty heavily on. As you noted a little bit, cause it's an adaptation of a book.

And a little bit cause it's like doing Goodfellas for, you know, it's really, I thought a lot of like a Goodfellas joke as joke, and with love and affection, and that made me like it as well. So he has a lot going on on his own, and then there's like the political stuff that is a lot, doesn't totally feel nailed down, and doesn't really ever feel in conversation with him.

Yeah, that's interesting. The first act of the movie, I thought, was very effective, but very literary, because of that voiceover that is necessary. I think most... I haven't read Mickey Seven. Did you look at it? And is it all, is it first person? Is it taking place in his mind? Yes, it's all in his mind.

And I would say more focused on, like, not the science, though there is sort of a lot of, like, entry-level, made-up science. It's kind of been compared a lot to The Martian, and I would say that's, like, the right level of engagement and made-up science corner. Seriousness with it to take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the ethics of cloning and the idea,

like, of souls and stuff more than on Marshall or the corporation or... That's elucidated, like, a little bit, but it's all about Mickey and multiple beings. Yeah, so I think that's maybe part of the challenge of this movie is that it's a movie that is taking place within one person, but it's a very big world. And so I can kind of feel him trying to bend the framework

around the kinds of things he likes to do, which are usually very multi-perspective stories with a number of different characters. Often families are featured in his stories. And they're kind of always shifting from who is in the lead. Occasionally you have a movie like this, like Mother is maybe the one that is closest to this, where you've got like more or less one person that we're following the whole time. But...

I mean, Okja. That's what... Okja has like a lot of characters and a lot of perspectives. It does, but it's like you are... it's the same thing where it's someone who society undervalues, either a child or Mickey. Yeah. You're navigating both like creature relationships and large corporations with also like a buffoonish male figure and like a steely ice cold, like woman at the side trying to negotiate what's going on. So there's a lot of Okja in this.

Yeah, after I saw it, you asked me like, what bong should I revisit to prepare? And I said that there's a lot of Okja in this movie. And maybe that's part of what is holding me back from really loving is that it feels like slightly schematic or thematically redundant to some of the kind of corporate slash political kill the billionaires stuff that is in the movie.

It's a part of what he's interested in as a filmmaker and in most of his films. Yeah, it comes up in all of them. So it's not that. I think it's maybe just the very specific way that it's told. Mark Ruffalo plays this Kenneth Marshall figure, and Tony Collette plays Ilfa, who is his wife. There is Trumpian quality to Kenneth Marshall, for sure.

Bong has said that this is not based on Trump, but I think if you watch the movie and you see his hair and his vocal affectations and his teeth and... And like Ruffalo's doing it. Very clearly. Like, even the kind of speech pattern. You know, it's not quite as good as Sebastian Stan's remake, but like, they're living in the same family. They are, they are. It's a very pronounced,

I mean, he's an over-the-top figure in real life, and so it requires a kind of over-the-top performance. I would say somewhat distractingly over-the-top for me. I thought he got some good laugh lines in this movie, but I didn't think it was... Dead silent in my theater. Really? Yeah. over the top for me. I thought he got some good laugh lines in this movie, but I didn't think it was... Dead silent in my theater. Really?

Yeah. The laughs were kind of inter... were really interspersed in the theater. I saw it a second time with a packed house on Sunday. And people were... They seemed to like Pattinson was my takeaway. And especially when Mickey 17 meets a multiple. That stuff seemed to work really, really well. The Kenneth Marshall stuff, yeah, I guess didn't work as well.

As I was watching it the second time, I was like, is this movie better if there is no Kenneth Marshall and Tony Collette just plays this like lead figure who's a little evil but maybe not as eccentrically over the top? I do think so. I mean, part of the reason I went back and read Mickey 7 was because I wanted to understand how much of the Marshall and the... It's sort of a cult. It's sort of a mega church.

It's sort of a, like, corporation. And I couldn't really figure out what was going on with his motivation or, you know, what he was trying to represent besides sort of like a Trumpian guy with too much teeth who is a buffoon on TV a lot. And there's... It is sort of a cult in the... Like, I mean, I guess they say literally there's one sentence

where it's like, this is a cult, and they only believe that there is like one soul, which I was kind of like, well, is that wrong? But anyway... There's a little bit of like evangelical Christianity in here. There's megature stuff for sure. I think all of that, like as best I could tell, and again, I didn't read word for word,

but that is added in. That's like, that's Bonds' addition. Oh, he's adding those things. Okay, interesting. And definitely all of the kind of Trump political illusion stuff is added in. But then I feel there's so much going on

that it's not quite nailed down. And so I agree with you if you had had Tony Collette or just like a simpler, this is a, you know, Mickey's just wants to be a guy in the world and they're taking advantage of him. And he, you know, if you could streamline his conflict, I do think that that would be easier and would also play into what worked for your audience and for me, which is Robert Pattinson.

Yeah, I think the movie, because it's a sci-fi spectacle, needs an adversary, and that's why this character is pumped up in the way that it is. It's not always as effective as I would want it to be. I think I like the idea of a kind of Trump slash Musk-esque person leading a space expedition and being kind of buoyed by the conservative Christian right,

because that's like effectively what happened in this country. You know, like, that idea works. It's just the execution that is a little dodgy. Yeah, well, it's like, it's all a little muddied, right? And, but also there's so much else going on that it's not able to be, like, communicated in that way. Like, he's sort of Trump, but it's a pretty, it's a like very broad caricature of Trump that doesn't really, like...

I don't know what I'm supposed to take away from what he's trying to say about that, other than, well, like, Trump's a buffoon, yes. But like, it's also... This is kind of my issue with Okja for the record too. I'm like, there's really no ambiguity here. It's just like a very dead forward, you know, ecological destruction is bad,

protect animals kind of conceit. Right. It is something that I agree with broadly. But like, it has none of the shade of all of his Korean films, which are usually like very morally ambiguous and complex and require like a moment to be like, what did the ending of that movie actually mean? And we should discuss it.

And I find that this movie and Okja together both result in a kind of like, I agree. You know, that sort of like neoliberal like, sure, we all should be nice. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. You know, Okja's just like mean Spielberg, you know? And so it... and cynical Spielberg. And so it is very, like, broad and manipulative.

And I rewatched it and that last shot with the pigs and the baby pig, like, just wrecks me every time. But like, that is also... E.T. but with a pig, yeah. Right, but you're right that it's not nuanced. It's like, yeah, I agree. Probably we don't want to hurt the baby pig or any of the other pigs. It can be effective and maybe that movie is more well made

or has higher highs. Well, I kind of... What do I agree with in this? It's like I... Well, we shouldn't let, like, mega churches be in charge of space. Let's talk about... Yeah, that's... We shouldn't let mega churches be in charge of space Let's talk about that. We shouldn't let mega churches be in charge of space. That is a good note or anything I agree with that. I think that well they can be in charge of their churches. That's fine That's that's their jobs right that you can run your church. Yeah You can't run space. Okay, you know, you heard it here first mega churches. You can't run space Do mega churches believe in space? You heard it here first, Mega Churches. You can't run space.

Do Mega Churches believe in space? Uh, I don't know. I don't know. Well, we have a Mega Church here. Come on in, Mega Church. I think the thing that the movie is trying to do is twofold. One, it's a very cool movie, and the stuff that works the best because of Pattinson

and the way that the film is written is about the self and the multiples of Mickey and being confronted with one version of yourself and another version of yourself simultaneously and a person who's angrier and more aggressive and more out for revenge on those who have done you wrong versus somebody who is a little softer, a little bit more emotional, a little bit more sentimental.

And the idea of these selves coexisting, that's a cool idea to render in a sci-fi movie. It's been done before, but maybe not quite in this way. The other thing is that we haven't talked about the creepers yet, which are the creatures of this movie, Bong, one of the great creature forward filmmakers, and he's invented a new kind of creature that looks like a armadillo water bug elephant.

Yeah. And... They are really, really cute and also so gross. They're very gross and cute. And that's kind of his thing, right? That's kind of what Bon does. This movie is very much like if, as I told him, the host creature and Okja had a baby.

Yeah, like the little, the hump, but also the way the mouth opens and all of the things. Exactly. So, um, I think that the creepers are a very on-the-nose metaphor for the other, for any immigrant or person who does not look like you. And, you know, the Kenneth Marshall character characterizing them as like disgusting alien bugs

and wanting to exterminate them is a very, very, very broad one-to-one metaphor for the way that we talk about, the way that some people in this country talk about the other. So I think that's what the movie's about, really, is about understanding yourself, and then once you understand yourself and accept yourself, accepting others in the world, you know?

That's the kind of like, we are the world hands together interpretation of the movie. Right. But it gets bogged down in like the other noisier stuff around it at times. Yes. There is also sort of a contradiction

in the ultimate conclusion, which is like, it's about honoring yourself, but then only one Mickey can exist at the end. So which of yourselves do you choose, I guess? And... It's a good question. I know. Which of yourselves would you choose

if you had to make a choice? I mean, he... Would it be YouTube Amanda? Yeah. You know, there is like the... I mean, he's essentially choosing between kind and pathetic, slightly dopey himself and aggro, you know, sexually adventurous version of himself, which is very funny. There's a lot of sex in this movie too, which is great.

I like that's, it's funny. And, you know, ultimately, I guess they both contain both. And so then the sweet dominant one, you know, the sweet non-dominant one can win. But I, it's, you know, and I guess like that is, it is sort of complicated and Bunga is being like, okay, well, even when you choose yourself, there are also consequences or complications. Yeah. But that nuance, like, also gets sort of bogged down in a very long ending. And it's just nothing.

Everything is a little messy, right? And I think that's unexpected in a filmmaker who is so precise and everything is always, as we know, you know, storyboarded and designed and chosen, like, by the frame. Yeah. And then I was just kind of like, okay, well, what's going on here?

Is Mickey Seven humorous in tone? I... He's... It's sort of dopey. Okay. Again, like I wasn't, I wasn't reading for tone or like reading for a sense of enjoyment. You don't have your book report ready for us? No, I, it was, I guess it's supposed to be like amusing. You know?

Yeah, I ask because this movie is a reunion for Bong with Darius Kanji, the DP. They worked together on Okja. Darius Kanji, for those who are not familiar with him, is one of the great living cinematographers, Iranian filmmaker who has worked with... I guess he's probably best known for Seven with David Fincher, but, you know, shot the last couple of James Gray movies.

He shot Uncut Gems. He's got two movies coming this year. So, your trailer would be the cinematographer from Uncut Gems. Yes, as Marvel taught me. Um, he's got two other movies coming this year. Marty Supreme, Josh Safdie's new movie, and Eddington, he's shooting the new Ari Aster movie.

Okay, so, and so it would be this, from all three of them. Yeah. Okay. Mickey 17 is not being sold on any of those facts, but, you know, Derek'sarius Kanji favors darkness over light. He favors a kind of noir-ish style, a black and white style of film. And the movie is, the production design is kind of dingy cargo loader. It's a little bit more alien than Star Trek The Next Generation.

You know, it's not a glimmering, cool space movie. It is a movie about like industrialization funded by a mega church in which like the proletariat needs to survive. Snowpiercer. Very snowpiercer. I would argue, and that was what I was gonna say is like, the movie to me is actually at its best and most coherent

or at least flattering my own tastes when it is a little bit ominous and dark. And for example, there's a sequence early in the film when Mickey has signed up to become an expendable and he is sort of escorted by the actress, Holliday Granger, to go essentially have a physical and learn about the 3D printing technology, the big machine that makes the new Mickey's. And it's a little scarier. It's a little like out of the past. It's a little of, it's a noir drama.

Right. Where, you know, a femme fatale is luring him into a space where he doesn't know where he's headed. And there's a sequence very late in the film, a dream sequence that I won't spoil in detail, but that also feels kind of unnerving and a little upsetting, a little out of place. And I feel like if the movie held that tone

a little more consistently, you wouldn't have this great, fun, daffy Robert Pattinson performance, but you might have a movie that kind of hangs together a little bit more, and you wouldn't have all this kind of tone spray that is happening? Yeah, I think that's definitely true. It would be picking a tone. I think the two sequences that you identify,

they are still a little weird. They both still have Robert Pattinson, and there are still moments of... Maybe not of humor, but of... Well, they do have humor, but humor is like the finishing touch. They're just strange. They're just strange. They're strange and in a way that is kind of funny.

And that is, I think, when Bong is most effective and also funniest. Like, I don't know if his broad comedy makes me laugh and it didn't make a ton of people in my screening like laugh out loud with one great exception. But I think all of his other movies are like very wryly like observed and deal with big problems and big ideas

in sort of like a cynical funny way, whether it's like the government or the corporation. He is often commenting by being like, this is weird and fucked up and the only way I know how to process that is a little funny. So I agree that if he had leaned into that a bit more, for me, it's when it's slapstick

is when you kind of lose it or lost me. It's funny though, because there's a... My favorite scene in the movie, I think, is when Marshall invites Mickey to have a dinner. Yeah, sure. I mean, that is like, you know, when you get it right, you get it right. But that to me is like, if you were gonna make a slapstick movie, if you're gonna make

a Three Stooges movie on a spaceship, Pattinson can do it. Like, he has a... He can do it. He has like a pratfall in this movie where I was like, holy shit, that's not a stunt man. You know, like you can see that it's him flipping over furniture and falling and smashing glass

and convulsing on the ground. Like, he's game. I mean, to me, the best part of that is there is... There's some very uncomfortable singing. And then the way that Pattinson is like sort of reacting to it, I first thought, I mean, it was perfect. His stomach is turning while it's happening, yeah. That moment is just really, really funny.

And it's almost like a tease for what could have been. Right, but that's a different movie than the movie that you're describing. Totally, totally. There is this sort of, like, no one should ever have to pick a lane. You know, that's like the magic of life. But...

It's really cool that he got $120 million from an American studio to make a movie. It's more that there are moments where you get this, he gets this lipstick right, and there are moments of that noir stuff. And then there is some there's some other stuff where it just kind of feels like they didn't get quite where they wanted to get in terms of tone.

It might have just been a sense that like, it's a little character stuff to the movie at times. Like I thought Steven Yeun is like a little bit wasted in this movie. He plays Timo, his Mickey's sort of like partner in crime at the beginning of the film, and then they both sign up for the expedition. Timo gets a more elevated role as a pilot,

and he's an underhanded type. But he kind of like flits in and out of the movie, and we never get invested in the way his story was resolved, I thought was really strange and felt very tacked on. I thought Naomi Ackie was really good, and I've been a little iffy on her. She's been in some really big movies. She's in a Star Wars movie.

She was Whitney Houston in I Want to Dance with Somebody. She was in Blink Twice. I think she's good in Blink Twice, but I didn't think that movie really hung together very well. So she's had like a lot of bites at the apple. This I thought was the best. I thought she was like very sexy and very strong in a part that was cool.

We don't really get to know her that well, because there are so many Mickeys around, but I liked, you know, she's playing a part that like a lot of men often play, and they've kind of inverted that role very cleverly, and so I liked her. I... I'm really torn on Toni Collette, because I feel like if she's not going for it,

why is Toni Collette in your movie? Like, you don't hire her for like a very subtle, quiet role. You know, that's not... I mean, this isn't subtle. But that's my point. That's my point. Like, she's... If you're going to hire her, like, she's got to play a big character, and she's playing like...

Right. Some like, Melania Hillary combination who's really obsessed with sauces. Um, and feeding her goofball husband sauces on camera. Um, I enjoyed her. I don't know. It's kind of a mixed bag on the cast. I, I, I'm going forward to have my eye on Anna Maria Vartolome, who we saw in Happening a few years ago.

This is a very different performance than Audrey Duan's Happening. Yes, but she's great. Yes, very alluring actress. Sure. And also, kind of, she is like tasked with being kind of the normie for, like, I think she is. She's a human, and she's interested in Mickey

in that way, if you will. Yeah. And is sort of being like manipulated by the Marshalls, but is there to just be kind of like, what's wrong with all of you? Great. News that in 2051 during space expeditions, we still listen to Elliot Smith in our little cabins.

That was an interesting needle drop. I didn't see that coming. But shout out to Kai, that actress's name. That's her name, yeah. She's got great taste. She had that wonderful tea glass that Mickey was drinking from. Yeah. Just a lot of style in that room. The food's really gross.

Disgusting. Yeah, in a great way. Shades of Snowpiercer. You know the protein bars from Snowpiercer. I thought of that too. Gross food and gross eating circumstances is kind of a bong signature. He follows it through on this one.

So the Korean films versus the American films. Yeah. This seems like a clear pattern to me now. This is what I wrote down. The Korean movies have a more acidic, bleak, kind of like doom euphoria at their ending. There's like a carrot of redemption or freedom that is being waved in front of the characters faces

at the end, but they're not happy endings. Like in Memories of Murder, at the end, Park is noaved in front of the character's faces at the end, but they're not happy endings. Like, in Memories of Murder, at the end, Park is no longer a police officer, he returns to a murder site, and he sees a little girl there and she tells him a story about a man she saw doing something there once, and then he just, like, looks into the camera and it's this, like, oh, my God, the killer's still out there.

We're all hopeless feeling. Right, right, right. At the end of Mother, all is revealed if you haven't seen the movie. And then the mother goes on this kind of like, reverie with all these other women, but she is also have to, has to kind of like, coke and push down her feelings about what has transpired with her son.

Nanny of Parasite is even more complicated, but even more interesting, because it sort of like starts where it ends, where the father is trapped in the basement, and the son needs to make enough money, essentially to buy the house, to free him from the basement, which is like, like literalizing the metaphor of the movie. The American movies, like you mentioned that Okja at the end does have this kind of like painful image of the other pigs.

Yeah. But you know, Nija and Okja are united. And they push the baby out of the pigs. Yeah. But, you know, Nidja and Ojar are reunited. And they push the baby out of the pen. And so, and then she's, she's, they're reunited. And then they have like another baby pig that like those super pig parents saved. Right. From like death and this holding pen.

So that's sort of like... No, that's not happy. It's kind of sweet. I mean, it's definitely sentimental and, like, you know, a little and upsetting, but it's not... Like, there is a very dark, upsetting image of, like, of all of the pens and all the super pigs and the pens and this, like, one tiny baby being pushed out.

It's not happy. And it stays with me. I don't know what your deal is with Okja. And I just like, I really, I like it. I agree that it's broader. And like I said, it's me and Spielberg, but... I think it's just, it's very similar to Mickey 17, which I think the pacing is not good.

I think there are long stretches that don't work. It's the only crazy Jake Gyllenhaal performance I don't really get. Interesting. I'm not really a fan of it. I think Tilda Swinton is like, even though she and Bong are great friends, I think she has like, misapprehended

what the tone of his movies should be. Like, even, I revisited Snowpiercer this weekend, thought it was even better than the first couple times I'd seen it, and she's the only one who I'm like, why are you, why is this the tone you went for with these characters? Like, John Hurt and Ed Harris and Chris Evans and Son Kang Ho, like, they're all doing, like, a very kind of, like, gritty, contemplative thing.

And she's doing, like, Margaret Thatcher on Molly. It's really weird. Right, but so that's three movies, that's the three American movies where we're sitting here saying, okay, like the American actors who we normally like are just off. No, no, no, no, no. I don't, that's not exactly how I feel.

Like I think that some of the American actors in some of the American movies are very good. Like Pattinson is obviously great. I feel like what- Well, he's not American. Very fair point. I feel like what Paul Dano's doing in Okja is very good. I really like that.

I also will say, and Snowpiercer, Chris Evans, that's like his best performance. He gets like an actual monologue in that movie that he nails and it's ridiculous and in the wrong hands could go terribly. Chris Evans Redemption Tour 2025. It's starting. We'll continue with the materialist.

I never doubted his talent. I guess I'm singling out the villains. Okay, so that... Yeah, there we go. See? Yeah. I wanted to go to this place, which is that, is it just that... Because even at the end of Snowpiercer, the polar bear moment is kind of a hopeful moment.

It's a little scary, but it's a little hopeful too. Is it just like, this is what Bong thinks of the Western world leadership? And Americans, I do a little bit of the Western world leadership? And Americans. Like, I do, like, a little bit think that that's what we're seeing. Ridiculous clowns? Yes. Yeah, I think that's fair.

And we're seeing it from, like, from the inside. And, like, maybe it's a little bit that it doesn't reveal anything to us as Americans. Or maybe we just, like, don't like the tone. Like, you know, like, maybe, you know, I don't really want to... I don't really, I really don't want to watch Trump in anything, so I also don't want to watch, like, Mark Ruffalo, like, lightly sending up Trump.

Yeah, I generally do like that tone. I mean, I do like Terry Gilliam movies. I think they are... I don't love all of them, but Brazil is probably the closest comp that you could make to Mickey 17. I think that's like I don't love all of them, but Brazil is probably the closest comp that you could make to Mickey 17. I think that's like a five-star movie. I think that's like a great film, a totally original movie,

kind of invented a tone in some ways. So, to me, it's not that I reject that kind of story. I do like a darker story from him, and my favorite movies of his by far are the kind of like, grounded genre-based ones about families and real people. That's definitely my preference on his stuff. Even The Host, which is fantastical, is very much like a family movie.

But I... So is Okta. Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. You're fighting for your faith. That's good. I just, I, it's like, it works on me, you know? That's great. I won't try to disabuse you of that. It's the magic of, you know, the little kid thing works, obviously.

He's really good with creatures. Yeah, I mean, I agree that I never know what Jake Gyllenhaal is doing, but... I usually dig it. It's a rare case where I don't dig it as much. Anything else on Mickey 17? Pattinson's so good. I know we said that already,

but like, it's kind of unreal to me. He is one of our great actors. So, this is like a stupid prompt. So, I hope this isn't taken in bad faith. But a thing that occurred to me while watching it is that he is literally one of the great movie actors that we have right now. But I'm not sure that he's a very good movie star.

And that seems like a pedantic thing to say, but it's a little hard to hang your movie on an actor without a movie star persona. Now, Timothee Chalamet, I would argue, is also trying to do this. He's trying to be a great actor and a leading man for his generation simultaneously. This is hard to do, you know?

Gene Hackman just passed, He had a real persona. You knew what you were getting. I was thinking of Hackman. Yeah. You know? Like Denzel Washington has a real persona. Cruz has a real persona. It doesn't mean they can't skew, you know, move to different shades of it from time to time. But Pattinson is constantly reinventing himself. The way that he looks, the way that his voice sounds,

his posture, his physical execution. He is Batman, but he's also the guy from the lighthouse. Right. And so you know you're gonna get a cool movie, more than likely when you see a Robert Pattinson movie. I mean, you know you're gonna get a hot weirdo, you know? And that's fine, that can be a personality too, right? And you know that it will be transfixing.

I agree with you that in terms of, it's a marketing challenge, if you will. And Timmy is getting to a point where he's Timmy. Right, it's sort of supersedes. You know, it's one word, you know, name recognition that cut to him 45 times at the Oscars. He, like, and he's also, he's doing the work, he's going on game day, he's like doing all his content,

he's hosting SNL. And Pattinson's shtick is like being very confused when Suki Waterhouse calls him on the phone. Did you ever see that clip? Oh, this is so good. She was doing some sort of video interview and like does a prank where she calls him on video and is like, hey, they asked me to host Love is Blind. What do you think? And then it's like, actually, they want us to host it together.

And it's just like a minute and a half of it. And he's just on the other phone. Is he in on that idea? No, eventually. And eventually, I think he's like, darling, have you gone mental? Like, is this a prank? And then when she says yes, you you're gonna be on the internet,

he's like, I don't want to! So it's really good, but he's like... He is receding, right? And being like weird and spacey and making pasta in the microwave and doing... So that... You can't plaster that on the billboards in the same way. You can't sell it in the same way.

But you know what it is. Yeah, it's great for us. It's strange. It's great. It's great for us. His next three movies are The Odyssey. Perhaps you've heard of it. Who is he in The Odyssey, do we know? TBA is what he's listed as.

I don't think we know any of the lead characters beyond Damon and Holland. OK. Die My Love. Charlize isn't it, right? Charlize isn't it, yeah. She's gotta be like Cersei, right? I don't know.

I don't know. What if she's not playing a classically female character? Have you considered that? You know what, Sean, that's a great point. Thank you. Thank you for acknowledging my expanding vision of the world. Thank you.

Happy International Women's Weekend. What was it? Thanks so much. It was International Women's Day. Happy International Women's Weekend. What was it? Thanks so much. It was International Women's Day. Happy International Women's Fortnight to you. So it is the whole month. It's the whole month. Yeah, there's a lot of programming.

Is there also a National Women's Month? No, we haven't gotten there. You guys just get one month around the world. Yeah, so it's just the majority of the population on this earth only gets the one month to be invited to bullshit corporate events Do those not get put on your calendar? Do they only get put on my calendar? Rest assured I get my fair share of bullshit corporate invitations. There's all this like programming about like women

Yeah, they only do this month that just like shows up and you they don't they aren't inviting you you don't have to participate I'm an ally I yeah, I'm obviously not participating, but I'm more just asking that you don't get invited Are the other 11 months out of the year International Men's Months? Yes they are. Yeah. Pretty cool. Yeah, pretty cool how that worked out Other movies Pattinson has coming in the future die my love new Lynn Ramsay movie Jennifer Lawrence Can't wait and the drama new Christopher Borglie movie opposite Zendaya. So, if you look at his, you know, his CV, it's phenomenal.

Yes. Yes. It's like... There are no problems here. Stop making a problem. There's no problems. I'm merely discussing a man's work. Yeah. And I think that I'm allowed to do that. And a new dad.

You know, he can have it all. Kintsuki Waterhouse is really the question. This month she can. Yes. Brady Corbett, James Gray, the Safdies, Robert Eggers, Christopher Nolan, Matt Reeves, lest we forget he was the Grey Heron in the Boy and the Heron dubbed version. Sure. So Miyazaki, Bong Joon-Ho, Nolan again.

This is it. This is what this was the guy I was waiting for. I've been waiting for a guy who's like, I'm a huge fucking film dork, but I'm also 6'2 and very, very handsome. Right. And now you have both Harris Dickinson and Robert Pattinson. He's my enemy. He's coming from my scene. So you come around on that, You know it's like net bad. No, because honestly, if I invited him onto the show and we talked for an hour, I would be like,

will you be my second wife? Right. I think that's good. Listen, we're all learning during one of the history months. We are really learning. Okay, bong movies. Any other, any closing thoughts? I did really like it. We were, we just picked it apart for a while. That's why I started the conversation.

It was the second best movie of the year so far, pretty easily. Totally. That's why I started the conversation being like, I don't really wanna do this. It's such a weird feeling also to sit in the movies. And like 15 minutes into this movie, I was both like, this is really excellent

and we just don't get movies this well made anymore. And also, I don't know if I'm totally keeping up. And... I felt like I could keep up with the story pretty well. I just felt the tonal mishmash. Well, I mean, I think that's what I meant. Like, I'm on the ride wherever it's going, but do I like totally understand?

You know, a couple of other, like, things that were jumping out to me were there were specific structural choices. Starting the movie in the middle of the movie and then cutting back to the beginning of the movie is something that happens basically on every pilot of every TV show now, and I fucking hate it. I hate that move. I didn't like it in this movie.

I just start us in the story. You don't have to tease us with something that's coming when it comes in the movie, because it didn't, that didn't reveal anything meaningful that we didn't know from the marketing of the movie, right? Do you agree with me on this? Yeah, I mean, my solution would be to stop watching television, as I have.

Well, I'm enjoying the White Lotus. Uh, it's not going to happen for me. Um, I started season two, and that hotel looks very nice, and I got stressed out and... Okay. You're missing out. This show's getting good on the third season. Everyone really likes it. I think that that is great for other people.

Severance a little bit of a downturn right now. Well, I obviously was... I wasn't even gonna try on Severance. Um, listen, I'm watching film. I believe in the cinema. What about the TV show Survivor? No, but has that turned around for you? They voted Jon LeVedoff? Uh, that was last season. He was the first person eliminated.

Which was very funny, if I'm being honest. Uh... I thought he handled it well, to be honest with you. Well, great. Um, I... This season has been good. These are the only three shows I'm watching at the moment. Although I intend to watch Shrinking. I mean, you know, Harrison Ford.

I hope you're well after your shingles diagnosis. Um, I don't think I'm watching any television right now. The Last of Us? Did you watch the first season of that? Sean, who are you, like, you know, who are you sitting across from? Very good show. I'm watching film. I'm watching the films of Bong Joon-ho. So, Bong Joon-ho, let's talk about his films. I'm going to make you rank them with me.

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because personal taste is very prominent here. So we're gonna have to do some negotiating. You know, I just wrote down some things that I think make him special, which is that he is a very visual filmmaker, but I think he's not the sort of filmmaker that irks you and that he's not purposefully athletic. Thank you. Yeah.

He can see the movie very clearly in his mind, but he's not, like, virtuosically hammering you with his style. He, like, really leans character, theme. Those are the things that matter to him most. Yes. The camera is in service of the story and ideas rather than ideas in service of a camera. He has that perfect blend too, I think, of almost like Spielberg and Michael Hanukkah

where it's like black heart, but pure soul. Very cynical about the way that the world works, but loves people. And that makes for a really unique blend. There's not a lot of directors, like, I wouldn't describe John Carpenter that way. I love John Carpenter, but John Carpenter loves his heroes. But he's like, we're in hell. We are in hell. And I think Bong is a little bit more optimistic

about the human spirit. I think that he thinks that... I think he thinks like the world... Like, we are in hell, but... like, kids, animals, and pure souls still exist among us, and we need to cherish all of them. Yes. So I think he's obviously a very political, ethical filmmaker.

I don't think he's very preachy, except when he is. You know what I mean? I mean, preachy seems unfair, unless you're like literally putting like a megachurch preacher as the villain of your film. That's a pretty broad stroke. But like maybe that's also, the megachurch thing really just,

I was like, what are, it flummoxed me. I know evangelicals, Trump, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but like, this didn't seem like that fine point of a critique, it was just, I guess that... That's what we were talking about. It's like, it is an outsider's perspective on Western. No, I think it's very easy to say too, that Marshall and the evil leadership figures

in all of his films are not just their Western analogs, but when you have American or English actors portraying them, it's inevitable that you'll make that comparison. The number one thing for me with him is that he loves and respects genre in ways that feel very similar to the way that I love and respect genre, but he does not get bogged down in the tropes.

He doesn't feel like he has to fulfill the formulaic expectation of what happens in a monster movie, of what happens in a serial killer movie, of what happens in a Spielberg-esque creature forward romp. Like, he takes them and bends them and molds them to his own design, which I think is the single thing that distinguishes him from all of his peers and makes him really in that really upper,

upper echelon of 21st century directors. Well, he understands that genre can contain ideas. I mean, he understands that genre is metaphor, right? And like the possibilities of what, like a monster or a... I mean, really, like a lot of monsters... Mm-hmm. Yeah. ...can express and have expressed in movies and in cinema for many years, but like is not willing,

he's there for the big ideas and not just for like the gross out or for like Godzilla and Kong punching each other or whatever. Yes, yes. Which was cool, but you know. I would watch his Godzilla and Kong punching each other movie. Yeah, of course, because he does it really well. He is like, he's actually, he is good with the creatures

and their design and like the way they look and the way they operate in the world, which is not something that you can say for most people making creatures or sci-fi movies right now. Yeah, he reminds me... It's so hard to say this now because of what he represents to movie culture at large, but it reminds me a lot of Peter Jackson. Peter Jackson's gotten really bogged down

in being like he made three Lord of the Rings movies and then three Hobbit movies. Before that, he made really grounded genre movies, a couple of really gross movies that were idea forward. He came to Hollywood, made The Frighteners. He made a murder mystery movie that didn't really work that well. What was the name of that movie with, um...

with Sir Sheronan and Mark Wahlberg? Uh... Lovely. The Lovely Bones. Yeah, was it Sir Sheronan? I can't even remember. That sounds right. Which kind of bombed, but he was going...

Same thing, kind of going for something, like trying to use the same tones, but he was going, same thing, kind of going for something, like trying to use the same tones, but in a different register. And if he hadn't made those three Hobbit movies, I'd love to know what the next three Peter Jackson movies would have been. Sure, but then you wouldn't have all of your lovely Hobbit

memories with Chris. Yeah, we had so many great Christmases together. Also, then he wouldn't have needed to let off steam just with Beetle stuff. That's been great. I got no complaints about that. I think it's like this combination of feeling that you find in the movies and the ability to execute

on that feeling while understanding the history of movies. Like these are two guys who have also like watched and absorbed everything, who are also obsessed with American movie culture but are not from America. So they bring something new when they try to apply some of the tropes that were created here. His next movie is an animated underwater fantasia about deep sea creatures and humans.

Now for me, this is very exciting. This is a movie he's been thinking about, I guess for like 10 years. He got started on, I guess immediately after Parasite, but it's gonna take a long time to do. It's a Korean film. I think it's backed by CJ Entertainment,

which backs all of his Korean movies. How do you feel about that? He is good with creatures. Do we think it's scary, or do we think it's something I can watch with Knox? That's a really good question. I don't know. I mean, I should have asked him that. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure.

Is it more Ponyo, or is it more, I don't know, what's like a devilish grown up undersea monster movie? I mean, I guess Boy and the Heron, that's not really a movie for kids. Right. That's a movie about trauma and fire and pain and creepy herons. I mean, Poor Coroso, we've not watched it 5,000 times. Is it a movie for children? You know what?

The comp, I think, is a movie that many people have been comparing Mickey 17 to, which is Nausicaa, which is another Miyazaki movie that is very sci-fi and very odd. So if I had to guess, I would say more Nausicaa. That'd be my guess. All right, ranking these movies. Yeah. We're not doing any of the shorts. I haven't seen all the shorts.

I've only seen a couple of his shorts. The challenge here is that you really like Okja and I don't. I don't hate it, but to me, it is like the least of the big movies. It's not less than Barking Dogs Never Bite, which is kind of like a trial run, his first movie. More of a pure comedy. Great points are made.

You gotta take care of your dogs. Yes. You have to, folks. We can't do this anymore, we can't. It's not the dog's fault, it. Like, I just, you have to, folks. I just, we can't do this anymore. We can't. It's not the dog's fault, it's you. But for the love of God, I'm just trying to sleep for five hours straight at night.

Just fucking manage your dogs. You think they should be muzzled? What do you think should happen? I think that you- Should they be tranquilized every night? Do you let your child scream all night outside? No, you don't. I don't let that happen, but it may happen from time to time.

It's not outside. We were watching the Aristocats yesterday, my daughter and I, and she was like, I really like cats and I don't like dogs. And that was a real blow. OK. That was a blow in our household. Well, maybe it's because dogs are often scary when they're not tended to

by their owners. It's funny that this movie, which is sort of about an investigation, it's like a trial run for memories of murder in some ways. And you can tell kind of what animates his interest in this kind of story. But I think Barking Dogs and everybody is like, to me, the one I've, I think I've only seen it once. It's not something I returned to.

Not a movie I love. It's good. You can see the makings of a really cool filmmaker. That would be at the bottom. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that. I'm just, I'm already mad that you're trying to put Okja next. That's so insane. You have no heart. Does Okja change for you at all now that you are the father of a daughter in this, our month of women?

Um... I think, I think to me, it's a, this next stage is a battle between Mickey 17 and Okja. I think those are the seven and six spots. I would agree. I would put Mickey 17... You would. ...at seven and Okja at six. I just, Okja is more wholly formed to me.

Neither of these movies are bad. That's not what I'm saying. No one is saying that. We did a whole thing at the top about, this is one of our great working filmmakers. We love him. You're the one who said we had to rank them, so I'm putting Mickey 17 at seven. Mickey 17 is at seven.

Oakjah is at six. I find that a little hard to bear, but I'll accept it because we're working in partnership. I would not accept it any lower, and I think that your heart is closed off, and I don't know heart is closed off, and I don't know what's wrong with you. Okay, so the remaining films are memories of murder,

the host, mother, snowpiercer, and parasite. Come on, wouldn't either like bring us into the office? That's so great. Wow. The chase scene in Okja is phenomenal. It's like some of the best shit you'll see in a movie in the 2010s. The movie on the whole, it's okay. Well... It's like some of the best shit you'll see in a movie in the 2010s. Yeah. The movie on the whole, it's okay. Well.

It's cool. We're taking back your father and daughter's card. All right. Number five. Five movies left. Okay. We almost should like cut to the chase and be like Parasite 1, what goes five, four, three, two? Am I right?

Yeah, yes. Some people would say Memories of Murder is his best movie. Okay, it's really good. I think it's extremely influential. I think it's a great... The kind of unsolvability of life is a great idea for a serial killer movie. Sun Kang Ho is, like, amazing in this movie.

If Sun Kang Ho is in your movie, it's probably a good bar movie. Yeah, you're doing well. I... I feel like it's two. Memories of Murder? I do. Yeah, I'm good with that. I like it. So then the order of the next few is a little trickier.

So five, four, three. Five, four, three. Parasite One and Memories of Murder Two. Memories of Murder, for those of you who haven't seen it, hugely influenced by David Fincher and then went on to influence David Fincher. They have this great kind of back and forth thing going. The Use of Darius Kanji is another interesting thing going on there.

In the Future for Bong. It's a confusing and funny and dark and sad movie. Cinematographer of Seven. Bong, Bong, Bong, Bong, Bong. Okay, five, four, three. The Host, Snowpiercer. And Mother. Now, Mother has the best ending, in my opinion.

Yes. Snowpiercer is the most propulsive. Yes. The host has probably the highest highs. I like the host the best. Do you? Yeah, I do, but I like bong in mean Spielberg mode, as we said, which, you know, that is down to like the shots of everyone being like looking at wonder, you know,

on the other side of the camera. And then it's this animal also, you know, another, you know, little girl protagonist. True. And, but like a real heavy dose of cynicism about the government, the world at large. That great 1950s style sci-fi movie opening with pouring the formaldehyde down the drain.

Precious in a lot of ways in terms of the pandemics. And response to illness. So I'm team the host. And because it does also, you know, it does that thing of, this is like a straight-up creature movie, but it's really about a lot of other things. Both, you know, political and familial. I'm not opposed to putting the host at three.

This was my entry point for Bong, for sure. Um, both, you know, political and familial. I'm not opposed to putting The Host at three. Okay. This was my, um, entry point for Bong for sure. This was the first time I heard about him or saw any of his movies. And I didn't see Mother when it was released. It is the movie, though, that feels the most connected to Parasite. Um, and, you know, not just because it's like

kind of a lower stakes, not lower stakes, more grounded story, I should say, about a family and about violent crime and delusion and expectation of what life can be or should be, class, all these things he's always interested in. Snowpiercer's tricky. I was surprised rewatching it and then reading some contemporaneous reviews

and then even just like letterbox reviews of people being like, this is pretty cool. I'm like, what? Like, I think it's like really, really great. Now, the first, those top three movies, Parasite, Memories of Murder and the Host, are great, great, great. You know, they're like, they'll be in the conversation

for our 25 for 25, right? They're like, those are the movies you put near the top of the conversation. Snowpiercer has stuff in it that is like, Michael Bay, James Cameron, like... Right, but... Incredible science, sci-fi, action, staging. Totally, but it's, you know, it's a taste thing.

And he can do it all, and that's why he's one of our great, but you're just like, you know, you're like Michael Baylight, just went on, you know? And I... Did you know he debuted a parkour documentary at South by Southwest this weekend? What? Yo, Michael Bay, keep doing your thing, man. Don't let the haters get you down. Also, listen, did you read the Big Jim quote

about how Avatar 3 is gonna be the largest Avatar yet because the previous two didn't have any room for character? Ha ha ha ha ha! Well, he's got Kate Winslet now. He's letting Kate Winslet cook in Avatar 3 Fire and Ash. So, those guys continue to be those guys. In Snowpiercer, when they start pushing forward to break through with the rolling tube

that pushes open all the doors, that shit is cinema. That is crack to me. That's awesome. It's, listen, no one's denying that. It's just kind of like... Allison Pill holding a machine gun? Yeah, very important stuff. Okay.

So we can put it at four, I'm fine with that. I think it would be sort of lame also in our rankings to just have, like, the three American films at the bottom. Oh, interesting. You know? Well, Barking Dogs, everybody. Sure, but you know what I mean.

I think they're tied. I think Mother and Sophia's are tied. Because I think Mother is... I mean, if I were doing this alone, I would put Mother at four. Okay, Mother at four, that's fine. I can do that. It's International Women's Month. We must acknowledge our mothers.

It is about an international woman. She certainly is. She does extraordinary things for her son in this film. I think... I think it's more like... Time them. What do we care? Is Snowpiercer falling in people's estimation or something? It was a big... It was a cause celeb movie because of Harvey Weinstein.

When it came out, he wanted to cut it down. There was a big fight about that. The international hoi pohloi was like, protect Bong. He's falling prey to the same thing that so many American and English filmmakers fell prey to with Harvey. Harvey obviously has been completely ejected from society, is rotting in prison.

That's all great. The movie itself, though, still kicks ass. I'm not taking anything away from the top four. I... They're like either 10 out of 10 or 9 out of 10 movies here. Snowpiercer more like an 8 out of 10 for me. Do you want to make it like a... Okay, listen, you know,

I, my hands are like, it's a spirit of generosity here during International Women's Month. Women are once again being generous. Do you think like the weird TNT show, didn't they do like a Snowpiercer show? Oh yes, I never watched one second of that. Nor have I, but do you think people have like a, were you accidentally reading Snowpiercer TV reviews on Letterboxd?

I wasn't. They don't yet offer those TV reviews. Just mini-series, I think. Snowpiercer TV show. Let's look at some of the... Oh, yeah, Jennifer Connelly was on this show. I remember Daveed Diggs. He was the actor who jumped out to me. This is a fairly star-studded show. I... I never thought to myself while watching Snowpiercer, what else happened?

You know, it's a pretty straightforward story. About the train, a lot of really good ideas. I mean, that's sort of TV and Marvel disease, which is another really great thing about the films of Bong. And he works in these genres that can be, like, you know, cinematic, universalized. And they're tight chips, literally, in most cases. Except when they're not.

It's interesting that you say that too, because we're being a little critical of some of this broad political commentary that's in his movies, especially American inflected political commentary. There was going to be a Parasite TV series, which was gonna be created or produced by Adam McKay. Now, Adam McKay does a very similar thing.

Sometimes successfully, sometimes not so much, where he takes these big obvious tropes, you know? Here is Dick Cheney, here is climate change. Let's make fun of how we are not acknowledging the absolute nightmare of these circumstances. The Parasite Show never really came to fruition, though I have heard Bong say recently that it is not a dead property.

It's supposed to be an HBO show. Okay. Again, another movie where I was like, that is a diamond. I don't know if we need it anymore. You know, it's okay to just leave something where it is and let it exist so beautifully. We were talking about whether or not

Parasite has the best picture belt on the last mailbag and got some pushback. You may be surprised to hear the listeners of the show, they had feedback. Can you believe that? They have opinions. Can you believe that?

And we're listening to them? Well, I'm acknowledging that they exist. I think that the way that Bill sees that enterprise is that the eras change, and you have to acknowledge the changing of the eras. So that like, is Parasite a better movie than Lawrence of Arabia? It is not. But in its time, does it represent

the greatest possible best picture winner? And does it represent the kind of the world that we live in, the modes of filmmaking? You don't understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I do, but like, why are you explaining it to me as if I didn't just immediately say, a parasite has the belt? I'm...

Well, I'm not sure if you had thought through it in that fashion. Why don't you just go ahead and apologize, you know? And say, I was wrong and Amanda was right. I will not say that. I didn't have to think too hard about it. I was like, I get it. Is that how you understood it?

Does it matter? Like, I'm asking you sincerely. Yeah, probably. I mean, I honestly, like, didn't think that hard about it, you know? That's what I'm getting my finger under right there. I didn't think too hard about it. I mean, it's a fucking podcast, right? You know?

But if we were going to have a conversation of like, what is, yes, what is the best picture winner of all time? I would answer it differently. I wouldn't answer it as like impulsively as I did just say to you, Parasite. You know what's interesting about that one though? I'm gonna unpack it here as we get towards the end of this conversation. Great.

We haven't revisited that movie yet. I suspect we'll have an opportunity to talk about it in the future. I think that... Spoilers. Maybe not. Maybe not. We haven't determined that yet. I... I wonder if it will be the best picture winner that we cover on this show.

The best best picture winner. Oh, interesting. Over its time. And let's just, even being generous, let's say this show runs five, seven, ten more years. Who the hell knows? Will it even represent, I'm not saying it will for the record. I got like eight more weeks to be. But, uh, you know, I think it's possible that...

And then the... I don't think they let 50-year-olds on YouTube. Oh, I beg to differ. And we will break that mold. You know who will break it first? Chris Ryan. Um, I think the challenging thing about it is that there were many other movies that were worthy of winning that year.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's... 2017 and 2019 were like incredibly stacked years, and then the rest of the years, we were just like, you know, shuffling around looking for a race. 2019 best picture, I mean, obviouslyuffling around, looking for a race. 2019 best picture, I mean, obviously we loved Once Upon a Time in Hollywood,

we both talked about it a lot that season. 1917 was the biggest challenger to it, I wouldn't have picked that as my best picture of the year, but it was a movie that I liked. I think it got a little bit dinged in comparison to all the Parasite love, and ultimately Parasite emerged victorious. Also all the, its reply guys were a bit much.

And you love Joker, as I recall, that was nominated for best picture that year. And the Irishman, which I think is damn good and definitely did not deserve to go over 10, in a normal year I would be stumping for it as a potential winner. Like probably top five score is easy for me. Is it really?

I don't, I mean, I guess not when we go through because there are so many, but like really, really, really underrated masterpiece. He was a huge fan. Little Women and Marriage Story. I'm very curious to see how the Jay Kelly thing plays out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we may look back.

I hope it's great and I hope Bomback gets everything that I feel he deserves, one of our favorites. But, you know, Marriage Story, that's like one of the best episodes I think we ever did of this show. And that's a really deep, fun, cool, smart movie. The Oscars We Love L.A. montage finished with that Halloween shot. And then I like almost started crying.

That was very good. There were a couple movies that appeared too many times in that montage. Like Three Lollens. Yeah too many times in that montage. Like, Three La La Land. Yeah, I mean, that montage was definitely like, 2015 and later. You know, and that's like...

It did feel that way. They filmed most movies here. Just like, historically speaking. Yeah, yeah. That was a good year. And so, Parasite won in that year. Which is kind of amazing. You know, you could really make the case like,

oh, another acknowledgement of Scorsese's greatness, or Tarantino finally getting over the hump and getting a Best Picture winner, or, you know, Joker was never gonna win, but even a movie like that, which is like a billion-dollar phenomenon with the best actor, that's the sort of thing you normally see go forward and win. So, its legacy has the power to be very powerful.

My favorite movie of that year. Okay. Um... A plus stuff, and I love all those movies. What is the Narnia thing happening? When can Greta move on? November 2026. Jesus Christ.

And that's fine. But, you know, like, I just... Little Women was so good. Greta Gerwig's two most recent movies will be The Chronicles of Narnia and Barbie. I just, Little Women was so good. Credit Girl Wigs, two most recent movies will be The Chronicles of Narnia and Barbie. I mean, yeah. So, Who Among Us is what I ask you. I liked Barbie, but Who Among Us?

You know, also has two sons, I believe. It's school, it's expensive. Definitely cost money. Definitely, absolutely. Consider Thunderbolts asterisk. You know, wither Thunderbolts asterisk. You know? Wither Thunderbolts. What if I love it? It's not out of the realm of possibility.

It basically stars Florence Pugh as a badass assassin. Sure, yeah. And then like a lot of cute jokes. You know? I don't... I... Cute jokes aren't really working for me anymore. Cute jokes? Yeah, let's bring back real humor. I need to laugh again.

Oh, yeah. Real humor. Absolutely. Like the Devil Wears Prada, the funniest movie ever made. What is real humor? What represents real humor to you? Well, what is the funniest movie ever made to me? We're kind of burying this convo at the end of this episode. No, well, I'm just, I guess I'm trying to think,

I'm trying to think of like what made me like laugh the most. And it definitely would have been something that I saw from the ages of like 10 and 21. Um, like, Zoolander made me laugh a lot. Yeah, this is like a slight age difference between us, but there's like a, there's a run of Happy Gilmore, Tommy Boy, Wayne's World. I mean, I was gonna say like Tommy, like,

those movies in theaters when you were 11. Yeah. It was insane. As an older person, I have a couple of very fun, you know, like three that jumped to mind immediately. Team America, World Police, Borat, and Jackass the Movie, all three of those, where it felt like everybody in the movie theater was like, holy shit, dude!

This is amazing! You know, like we don't, you know, the hangover was honestly like that. Super bad. Super bad was like that. Yeah. Super bad. Yeah. Honestly, though, I, God, Anchorman, very funny.

But I feel like the most I remember laughing was like weird David Letterman skits, like at the age of like 11, you know? Again, because it finds you at the right time. Well, I know, but that's, bring like 11, you know? Again, because it finds you at the right time. Well, I know, but that's... Bring back humor, you know? Um... I... Why are we talking about funny movies?

Um... Thunderbolts. And whether it'll be funny. Right, you don't want any more cute humor in your Marvel films. You want the pure comedy experience of a David Letterman sketch from 1996. I would love to, yeah. There we go. I would argue that that's actually specifically

what they are iterating on, but it's just not going that well. Exactly. Incredible way to make a Mickey 17 sandwich with Thunderbolts bread today. How'd you feel about that? At the top and the bottom. You know, every day I come to work and I just, and I do my best to do my job as an international woman in my month.

So next, or later this week on the show, we're talking about- One of the great international women. I would argue the greatest movie of the year so far. Me too. And a great international woman, Cate Blanchett, we're building her Hall of Fame. Which will be interesting. Have you started your research?

No, so I was literally like... She's made a lot of films? I was just typing Cate Blanchett filmography, because I, you know... She's made a lot of films. I mean, I have seen a lot of them. Probably most of them. I would argue you've seen like 80 to 90% of them already.

This is not a Nicole Kidman situation where you're like, what is this Australian movie? Right. So what is this? What is Truth? Oh, Truth is the movie about CBS News. Oh, no. I have a lot of strong thoughts about that movie. Wow, I'm obviously gonna have to watch this, even though it's not gonna be good.

It is like legit a zero-star movie. Robert Redford as Dan Rather. Yes. This is gonna be incredible hate watching for me. I'm not a fan of that movie. Okay. She's fine in it. Blanchette, quite a CV. It's gonna be a long and in-depth conversation.

I can't wait for you to explain the plot of all of the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbits movies to me You know, she doesn't play a huge role in those films. She has a key role. Okay, gladriel Yeah She Queen of the elves. I think that's right. You tell me buddy. I can't really remember. Okay, I gotta revisit those movies Me and CR we are gonna do the Lord of the Rings the Hobbit pod at some point I don't know when that's gonna be maybe when you have a third baby Literally, will you give birth in International Women's Month? The Rings, The Hobbit Pod at some point. I don't know when that's gonna be. Maybe when you have a third baby. Literally never happening.

Will you give birth in International Women's Month? That would be fun. Thanks to Sasha Oshel for filling in for Bobby Wagner, producing the show today. Thanks to Gahow also for filling in for Jack Sanders today. We will return with more discussion of women and their month and internationalism. Thank you for listening. We'll see you soon.