The Big Picture - Movie Swap: ‘Casablanca’ vs. ‘The In-Laws’ vs. ‘Spy Kids’

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

It’s time to swap, which means it’s time for our producer, Bobby, to finally watch ‘Casablanca’! Sean and Amanda pitch a pair of beloved spy classics—the 1942 Best Picture winner and 1979��s madcap comedy ‘The In-Laws’—while Bobby shares with them the millennial family romp ‘Spy Kids.’ Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salek, and I'm the host of Bandsplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer Podcast Network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more.

Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Davids. And this is The Big Picture,

a conversation show about swapping movies. It's movie swap time. Here's looking at you, Bobby. Bobby Wagner, you finally watched Casablanca as part of a movie swap. How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. I'm feeling like I understand a lot of stuff now. Yeah, there we go. Everything kind of clicks into place. Not

that I didn't really get why things were good before, but also like I get what everybody's saying. I get what other movies were referencing now. Not just movies, many things in popular culture. You know, Fall Out Boy song titles, podcast names, many things. I did wonder as he started singing whether you would have that specific moment with regard to the Karina Longworth podcast. You must remember this and I'll sing it for you. But like how many times, like give me a number. Do you think that happened for you while watching Casablanca? Three or four, probably.

Like I said, there is literally a Fall Out Boy song called Of All the Gin Joints in All the World. And I turned to Phoebe and when they said that and I was like, Fall Out Boy song title. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, a few times, but also just kind of the entire time that the movie was on. I was like, oh, we're all just we're making references back to these same not just this movie obviously but this is kind of the one that has been archived by popular culture the most from this time period but this style of movie and uh this this sort of like interpersonal character play kind of set a tone that i see

recreated in many of the films of my youth and that I've gone back to from all of the past decades since this film was made. There's certainly a case that it is the most influential non-major cinema film of all time. The sort of tonality, the storytelling, the screenplay, the relationships that Bobby's referring to, this might be the single most The archetypes. Inspirational. Yes. The archetype.

The sort of like the building blocks of romance films, of spy movies, of international intrigue. You know, you can cite like Citizen Kane or The Wizard of Oz as sort of like different kinds of inspirations for how movies look. But this movie feels like how movies sound, if that makes sense. Yes. And so it's funny, you know, if you've been listening to the show for the last four or five years, you know that we've had a running bit where Amanda has been, I don't know, trolling Bobby about the fact that he's never seen this incredibly influential movie classic.

There was no way for me to go back and find when that first happened. Because it wasn't like part of a specific episode. It was just like you happened to bring up Casablanca and you were referencing it in comparison to another movie. You're like, Bobby, have you even seen Casablanca? You're like 15. Have you even seen it? You think it was pre-pandemic?

I can't, I was trying to think of when we first discussed it. No, I think it was probably in the pandemic because I have a sense memory of being in my old office, my pre-baby office, which was like, so which would have been the pandemic you know so i can look and and bobby being like i haven't seen it and me being very upset and then it like echoing off those particular walls so i want to say it's like a 2021 revelation but that's a solid two years maybe late 2020 a solid two years years of Bobby being publicly mocked

and also privately mocked. Bobby and I are working on a different project together. Casablanca came up and I'm just leaving notes for him and Google Docs being like, lol, Bobby, one day you'll understand this. Knowing I'm going to see it two weeks later. Yeah, exactly. Okay, but so here's what,

we know we talked about it, that you've seen it. You sent us a text of like the opening, you know, titles last night. You understand the significance of it. What, what's your verdict? Like, we haven't talked about that. How do you feel? My verdict is that it's an amazing movie. Like it's just, it's unbelievable.

I didn't think that you were going to go a different way, but yeah, it's sensational. I watched it again last night. An excuse to watch Casablanca. Thank you, Bobby, honestly, for that. A real gift. All killer, no filler. I'm not allowed to say it hasn't lost a step because I didn't see it in its prime, but in a lot of ways, it hasn't lost a step with modern entertainment.

It doesn't really drag like a lot of other old movies that i've gone back and watched there is like a propulsiveness to it it like pulls you through it the whole time there's a score that doesn't seem outdated which i know we're probably going to talk about as we go deeper into the movie but the all of the elements seem almost like shockingly modern yeah i completely agree and it's's remarkable. I mean, it's a one hour and 40 minute movie that has a tight structure that has great characters that looks beautiful. I completely agree with you about the music. We talk about movies that come out in like 1981 or 1997. And we're like, why does this feel like it's a little bit lumpy or a little bit slow in the

pacing? And why is this not as dynamic as I remember it being when I was a kid? And yet a movie that is 80 years old really is just crisp and tight. I think some of it is because of what Bobby started the conversation with, which is that it is the movie, the Ur movie that influenced not just Fall Out Boy, but there's a famous scene in When Harry Met Sally when Harry and Sally are watching Casablanca on the phone, each of their own homes, and, like, arguing about why Ilsa doesn't get on the plane.

But it didn't just reference, like, you know, metastasize its way through culture, but also, like, trained us how to watch and make movies. So the pacing, the shots, the, you know, metastasized its way through culture, but also, like, trained us how to watch and make movies. So the pacing, the shots, the, you know, when Rick walks in and sees her, you know, like, we are trained to understand how we watch movies a little bit by Casablanca. That's sort of the influence that it has. So let's just give a little context to this conversation. Obviously, we wanted Bobby to watch Casablanca. We also wanted to stick to a movie swap structure. We'll go in chronological order, but Casablanca, of course, is the first film. I'll let Amanda be the sort of shepherd of the Casablanca part of the conversation.

That's a lot of pressure. My pick is 1979's The In-Laws, the Arthur Hiller movie that is one of the most successful comedies of the 1970s. And Bobby, what did you pick? I picked 2001's Spy Kids, written and directed by Robert Rodriguez. So we have a kind of soft espionage theme running through this. And a kind of, you know, different generations, different phases of movies that, whether they fit together, ultimately, I think maybe we can save for the end of this conversation.

Ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. That's right. That's very true. Solving crimes or solving international problems with a bit of guile and a bit of breaking the rules, if you will. Unlikely alliances. That seems to be a theme running through these movies. Yes. alliances that seems to be a theme running through these movies yes uh casablanca is so tough to talk about though because it's not just that it um it is the ur movie as you say it's certainly the ur hollywood movie i would say right um and and it's that because of all of those moments of

recognition that you experienced bobby at times when i'm watching the movie and i probably i would say it's maybe seen it seven or eight times at this point in my life um really that's it yeah it's not it's not one that i'm like, it's Tuesday. I got to go with this. But maybe part of the reason for that is that I sometimes feel myself waiting for those six or seven key moments. You know, the lines of dialogue, you know, of all the gin joints kind of moments of dialogue or Dooley Wilson singing. You must remember this. Or as time goes by rather uh and and that actually like it it holds back the the enjoyment of the film in some ways because it is this series of iconography as opposed to right like um of letting a movie wash over you i don't that's that's a that's a

me problem it's not really even a problem it's just a different kind of way of experiencing a movie yeah i mean for me it is i think i've seen it at least 20 times it's in clear rewatchable territory you know and even last night i was watching it and my husband zach who's also loves it and seen it a million times was kind of like you know around the house and at some point he walked by and i was like they're about to sing the marseilles like do you want to come sit and he he just goes, no, I know. Because he could, you know, hear from, like, the dialogue. So, and as he was, like, walking around this morning, he was doing, like, the opening, like, and wait, and wait, and wait. You know, like, I have all, we have the intonations memorized.

But, like, I guess a lot of people over the years, you know, I suppose it it it was interesting to think about how before streaming this this movie is on it's on HBO max right now right Bobby that's right yeah that's where I watched it one of the only movies I own but how people watched it as often as they did before it was so available it's really exhilarating that you can just dial it up on HBO max now but I assume it was on tv like like repertory theaters for a long time, and then did sort of become this classic that anyone who considered themselves, like, maybe not a cinephile, but, like, a movie fan owned or, like, had access to. And so I guess that kind of put it in the culture but you know historically i guess it it is one of the rare movies that was i think is historically significant but also like in the

moment was recognized it won best picture it won best director for michael curtis it won um best screenplay which is interesting because it seems like 45 different people worked on the screenplay and that it was like written in real time and all the stories or of like dialogue being handed like day of and ingrid bergman like not totally understanding who she's supposed to be in love with though that is i would say a feature and not a bug of the movie um so the movie is also based on like an unproduced screenplay a play that was written in 1941 before the u.s entered the war um but is made after the movie itself was made and released after pearl harbor so the the political aspects of it, and it is like a snapshot of the American debate

over like intervention and World War II and Rick's character and the political aspects of it are really fascinating. And like an amazing, I think pretty moving like time capsule that also seemed to like be really like live and speaking to the moment in real time which you know the other the other interesting thing about it is that it is a largely international cast and much of the a majority of both the the main cast and the supporting cast all those like

wonderful people at ricks who show up you know just for a moment or two or a scene with their motivations um are are european and many of them um like immigrants or exiles from nazi germany so there is like a real i mean that obviously just makes for like a more dynamic and interesting like feel to the movie it It feels like a place in, you know, Casablanca or wherever, where a lot of different people are. But,

you know, that Marseille scene, which Bobby, I'm curious what your favorite scenes are. It is so emotional. And the, and the famous Yvonne, you know,

singing, she was a French exile, you know, like there is like this real world emotionality to it that gets me every time. I tear up every damn time I watch that. That sequence.

Yeah, that scene. It's so good. Yeah, I think, you know, the film is directed by a Hungarian man. It's produced in part by an international crew.

Most of the cast is not American. You know, Bogart exists as this kind of this symbol of this symbol of America at a turning point

in many ways. Bobby, like the movie, I think one of the reasons why it persists in our culture is not just its greatness in terms of the text,

but because it has all of those great fascinating details about its production and about how and why it was made that Amanda was just outlining. Do you know any of that stuff

when you were sitting down to watch it for the first time? Not all of it. I knew kind of a little bit about the sort of timing of the release of the movie and that's how part of why it gained steam was that as these news events were unfolding in real time in Europe, you know, the United States is launching the Northern African front of the

of the war in World War II and so people are going back and making this the sort of like banner movie that is most closely associated with what's going on in real life and obviously that's a that's a powerful marketing tactic for your movie is things that are happening in real life if it becomes the sort of feel-good thing with something that is so horrible going on in the world um but i didn't know any any of the stuff about the extras about how a lot of those people were actual european refugees from world war ii from nazi germany and i was reading about it i mean amanda to your point i was reading that a lot of those actors um were because of their accents were asked to play nazis in movies in hollywood at the time and this was one of the first times that they had ever been asked to actually play refugees and so it was this like

a really emotional vibe on the set as well for these people because they're actually getting to act out their lived experience for the first time which in hollywood like that that wasn't really a thing at that point you don't usually get to act out your lived experience it's supposed to be a place the silver screen where like you go to forget what the real world is about and so i think that it purveys this like sense of reality about even if it's not necessarily a realistic situation to have this this bar in the middle of casablanca and to be able to bribe all of the perfect people and never actually get yourself in the wrong spot with the wrong crowd. Like it has an emotional clarity to it and emotional realism among the characters

that I think really stood out even to me on first watch, not knowing all that stuff. I think because of the scope of World War II, you can understand that everyone is affected by the circumstances. And so when you look at the cast, you see, you know, Paul Henry does Laszlo, you know, he's Austrian. And so he is, his family, his lineage is meaningfully impacted. When you look at Conrad Witt, who's like such an important

part of this story and a part of movie history, you know, he really was one of the key actors of German expressionism and then came to America to perform in American films and then portraying a Nazi, portraying, you know, the heavy of the movie. And leading the German soldiers in the German anthem during that Marseilles scene. I felt for him watching it. I mean, I do

every time. But what an amazing artistic challenge, you know? Yeah, absolutely. So the movie has like all of these deep, fascinating layers to peel away. But, you know so the movie has like all of these deep fascinating layers to un to peel away but i you know i think we could probably repel too far down that hole too and like overlook just bogey and bergman and the power and and magic of their chemistry and of the way that their story is told i mean you know you mentioned the one harry mitsali sequence which i thought of too when i was watching it and is that the movie that put you onto Casablanca?

Yeah. I wouldn't have known about it until I watched when Harry Met Sally. They are watching it on TV. I disagree with Nora Ephron's take on this one, but also it's meant to be funny. You know, she's like, she doesn't want to marry a guy who owns a bar and live in casablanca forever which is hilarious but but also in that typical nora efron um way is very insightful of like what makes this particular romance work and what is i think the blueprint blueprint for like all successful romance in fiction is that like they don't you know there's the longing they don't end up together um if you actually had to

see the you know the version where like ilsa stays and they're just like in casablanca and she's like oh shit i gave up you know helping my uh freedom fighter husband like for this it doesn't go as well so like that's the post-credit scene of goodwill hunting exactly so like the restraint and the obstacles and the the longing are what make this romance work and to me kind of then what sets the blueprint for like all truly romantic movies um which is you know that it like it doesn't quite happen but for like a moment, it really could happen. And another notable thing is that there is no literal sex in this movie, but like plenty of implied sex, which I would argue works well, if not better than it's a different vibe.

But it's a powerful vibe. And they really had to skate around the you know the 1942 code so there's a lot of stuff you know like they'll say one point's in a nightgown um but and you're if you know and i guess it like viewers in the 1940s would have understood that the nightgown or like the conversation and then the cutting to the light like from the the very phallic tower and then back into the room would imply that something else happened but there is something that is still like sort of not unconsummated but like unshown that makes it more romantic in my. That's an interesting question to dig into because The Hays Code was introduced in 1934.

And prior to that, if you watch movies from the late 20s or early 30s, they're quite sexual in nature. You know, they're not necessarily pornographic, but they're, you know, unvarnished about their attitudes towards sex and to some extent towards violence and to kind of like a, you know, intense, light, emotional lifestyle. And then so Hollywood has to make this big shift in the mid-30s as the country's social mores are starting to change and as government is starting to get its hands

around the world of entertainment. And so then you get movies like this that really want to convey to you this intense emotional, physical connection between Bergman and Bogie. But there's only a couple ways you can do that, you know. And like I think also the sort of like flashback structure of the movie forces a kind of like sensuality onto the movie that it previously doesn't have, you know. It's like it's much more of like a spy movie that's happening and then it just like comes to a dead stop. And it's like these two people fucked in Paris for a while.

You know, like that's basically what's going on. Look, you can tell his hair's not as slick back here. What were they doing before this? What about like the romance aspect of it for you, Bobby? I love like a low simmering heat to a movie. And this one clearly has to have that, both because of the Hays Code, right? But also because these two people aren't together and her husband is literally present while they're

talking to each other um and so it it completely worked for me and also i i find it absolutely fascinating just from like a practicality perspective that they intentionally did not tell ingrid bergman like a lot of things like what she was gonna say who she who was who who was supposed to get on the plane at the end like i don't know how much of that is really true or how much of that is lore or whatnot but like the intentional misdirection to create that like feeling of authenticity on her face as she's looking at these people and then also i know i know we have it here in the notes too but like the fact that she's two inches taller than him and they have to put him on boxes and they have she he has to sit on pillows and stuff while they're in scenes

together even it's almost like the fact that they still were able to create that chemistry despite some of the practical challenges of it is uh is a testament to like what really is at the heart of this movie my god makes it work though he does short king he's always been a short king he doesn't even look that short in this movie. In some movies he does. He does, but in this one they figured it out. I think they had to because I think Ingrid Bergman is apparently 5'9", which is basically my height, and apparently Humphrey Bogart was 5'7".

As I was falling asleep last night, I was thinking, you don't meet a lot of Humphreys anymore. Should we bring that back? No, you don't. It's like really gone gone it doesn't shorten well yeah you meet you probably meet more bogarts in the world than you do home freeze right in 2023 i feel you can't name a kid bogart seriously but like you know humphrey we could do it i don't know it's not too late to change nox's name

you're still under the two-year window behavioral therapists would tell you that it is too late but no this is like this is a the bogey moment really it's a maltese falcon is 1941 and then this is 1942 and together that creates like the true myth of bogart as you know a a wry cynical sentimental man in a trench coat yeah yeah massive heart being underneath a very hard exoskeleton right doesn't say much but uh you know has feelings and will do the right thing which is you know to me possibly more influential uh as an american archetype than the cowboy, as than things that we've gotten from movies. I'm glad you brought that up. I wanted to ask you a bit about that.

Yeah. Because, you know, I think John Wayne and Bogart are really the two people that kind of set the mold at this time. There's a few other people, Spencer Tracy, folks like that, but the American iconography of masculinity is often identified with john wayne um and then you know obviously monty clift and marlon brando come shortly after those guys and kind of reset the table for what american acting styles are like but i think you might be right that bogart actually matters more to i don't know the kind of like personas you see in prestige television you know what i mean like the the talking out of the side of your mouth,

the knowing the room better than anybody else knows it, romantic but not gloopy and sentimental, you know? Like that kind of restraint and that kind of sarcasm and cynicism. I mean, obviously, I relate to that a lot more than John Wayne dashing and lifting Maureen O'Hara by her hips and raising her up. Like it's a, it's a, it's a form of masculinity that I think also one of the reasons why his movies persist is that it doesn't feel expired. It doesn't feel corny.

It still feels cool. He still seems cool. I mean, and you know, here's looking at you kid, which that, that this could be apocryphal as well, but the story goes that,

that, that was a Bogart invention that he added to the script um and just the the not saying you know i love you like effortless incredibly cool tagline that has lasted for however many years i i just it works on me every time it's really important pretty amazing um i feel like the person that you hear, I mean, you hear Roger Ebert in particular say this frequently, but that Hal Wallace is the person who is the sole producer of the movie who is largely credited with creating a situation in which something like that could happen that you just described, where Bogie could have a moment

of invention and then the film starts to get built around that moment of invention. You hear a lot of different versions of stories like this throughout movie history where certainly christopher guest makes movies that are almost entirely improvised that have like structures and then he builds out his characters around those structures or you hear about like ben affleck on the set of air letting one character or another kind of riff and go where they want to go while staying inside the frame of the movie it seems more unlikely though in a movie like this that is much more like a swiss watch you know like all the pieces really have to fit together so you i feel like you you get extra credit when you make a movie environment that is kind of always changing and then the outcome

is this this diamond you know this perfectly shaped crystal uh i so i i think that's part of the reason why people when they look back on it, just marvel at it. And I wonder how much of that is good fortune, how much of it is like the genius of invention, the residue of design, you know, like I honestly don't know. There's like a similarity between

like how you're describing like Bogart having the ability to sort of like go read ahead almost a little bit. Like he has he knows what he's going to do but no one else really knows quite what he's going to do around him besides maybe the producer besides maybe the director it's like very similar to how his character is like

everybody thinks he's one step ahead he's actually two steps ahead but he's not telling anybody about that so it follows this like mirrored structure with how the actual movie plays out that the actor would be the one to like bring that line to it and not really tell anyone that he's going to do that and see how it unfolds on the set but it is almost like crazy to think about because the movie is like you said like

really tightly wound like this the the settings of the movie you can't they're not like flexible not you know not a wasted moment it it does ricks is like all the extras in the background have to be like in the exact right spot or otherwise it looks insanely cluttered but it actually looks perfect they also have to be the right extras and the right supporting cast and i feel like we haven't said the name claude rains yet i know he's amazing who plays captain renault we haven't said to me greed street who is senior ferrari we haven't said peter lori who's a garte for like you know like, like 10 minutes, but an amazing 10 minutes. And even like the smaller characters, like the one scene that always gets me is the young woman from Bulgaria who is trying to buy a visa for her and her husband.

And then they, you know, put it on 22. It's just, it's like really great. But like, she's wonderful. How Bogie responds to her in that moment is great the um the is the croupier is that what you call the man who said wow look at me and my and my gambling um carl the waiter watching you know i just like everyone then sasha the bartender like and carl talking about like the sweet thing that bogey did you're working like top to bottom with people who are very who are like incredible at what they do and the movie really wisely lets everyone

have their moment like it really develops all of those characters even if it's just like one scene or one shot or one line so revisiting it i, I was surprised by how little Peter Lorre and Sidney Greenstein are in the movie. And I think there's like some hangover effect from, if you've seen The Maltese Falcon, you know that they are huge parts of those movies and that they and Bogart have, the three of those actors just have incredible chemistry together. And they're a perfect fit and sort of like, they all have the opposite energy of the other when they're talking to each other. So it creates this great friction. But the movie is really much more in in claude raines's

hands i think that i had even remembered i mean he and bogart obviously that they are the participants and i think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship moment at the end of the film but spoiler alert if you have not seen casablanca i don't know why you're listening to this um lobby did you recognize that line? I recognized like all of these lines. 40% of the script has been repeated on like Family Guy. You know what I mean? I was just scrolling through.

Yeah, like the most quotable lines. And I was like, to answer your question of how many of these quotes did I recognize? And I literally have heard all of them before. They're so good though.

It's magical. And it's so interesting that it has three screenwriters and it's based on a play by two other people. And we know that Bogart was improvising. And we know that Wallace was throwing him lines. And we know Curtiz was throwing them lines. And you know Peter Lorre is improvising.

What was the alt for, I think this is the beginning of A Beautiful Friendship? I'm not sure. You like a little larceny with your something? Right, right, right. You know? And it just, because Wallace was like, no, that sucks. Do the other one. But it's just like amazing. That final line is the most famous line

in final line in movie history or one of them. It's the whole project is an amazing testimony to taste. Yeah. That everybody who's involved, who has decision making power just has a great, great taste.

And so they chose the right cut. They chose the right attempt at a sequence the right line the right moment um it's rare to be like what a perfect piece of art but it pretty much but it is and it's also a perfect piece of entertainment too you know like that's what it's a really it's a convergence movie what else jumped out to you about it bobby i love how the uh the like setting itself like r's Rick's bar or cafe American cafe Rick's cafe American

come on sorry this is unoccupied France this is unoccupied France they say that many times it was very clear throughout the movie that it's unoccupied France

I like how it plays as a metaphor for like him as a person where during the day when everybody is there is like this rich bustling thing that is like

speaking to the extravagance of Casablanca as a setting and the gambling and how it's like this midway point for wayward souls who are trying to get to different parts of the world and have different interests. And then in the very next scene when he's drinking alone and she comes in, it like reveals itself as this dark sort of inner conflict of him as a character and so that stood out to me about how different that looked and how different the filmmaking styles were when it was so bright when everybody is there and bustling with people moving around and then it almost turns to like film noir the way that it's super dark at night and then there's like these spotlights coming in and it's a lot of pressure and anxiety on his lifestyle and what he's getting himself mixed up in and so i might lot of pressure and anxiety on his lifestyle and what he's getting himself mixed up in and so i might argue that this movie also has the ultimate macguffin that

the letters of transit that ugarte steals at the beginning of the film we know what they are they're not a shining glowing object in a briefcase that we don't fully understand but we we only see them a couple of times and what i like about them and their usage in the story is they mean something different to different people you know to to laszlo they mean a kind of refuge and escape to create more revolution but to rick they might just mean being able to go to paris and hang out yeah or go to lisbon and hang out and i don't think he can go. Paris is occupied. Yeah, I don't think he should go. He probably shouldn't, but like the idea of...

You got to read up on Vichy France. Floating through Europe is something that is on the minds of some people. You know, Renault would think of it differently than Laszlo would think of it, than Peter Lorre's character, than Ugarte would think of it because that is just like

kind of a means to money and a means to power. And so it has this incredible flexibility like kind of a means to money and a means to power and so it has this incredible flexibility in terms of telling the story in terms of who wants it and why and when and how where it's being hidden that like you know shoot me dead for saying this but like you know the infinity stones they just can't get you there you know like no they can't. Sean pointed us to Roderick Ebert's wonderful commentary on Casablanca, but he points out, I think rightfully, that none of this makes any sense. So they're signed by General de Gaulle, but like, why would anyone, why would thezlo just, like, wandering around at the cafe, you know, with the Nazis? Like, this isn't, it doesn't really seem like everything was this civil and diplomatic. Agree.

Although, it makes you question because it is, you know, eight decades ago that the rules of engagement were somehow different. That there was, like, this sense of this place, or or at least maybe this is just the power of the story, but the idea of Casablanca as this covered tent, you know, as this place where all of these various places, and Rick's ultimately, like you're saying, Bobby, as this melting pot meeting point of, even if there isn't this intense disagreement or enmity, that they are coexisting in the world together a lot of euphemisms going

on for some like like all you know every one of this movie is like many of them are jewish immigrants like escaping absolutely so it's like yes and and living under the thumb of power right but there are these occasional places where people go basically to hide and they go to ricks to hide in some ways or at least to take their mind off of right you know the savagery happening in the world and like another i don't know why i'm nitpicking like my favorite movie but uh bogey's plan rick's plan at the end when he goes to reyno in the morning and he's like here's what's gonna happen you're gonna release loslo and then you'll come meet me in like 30 minutes and then we'll do this. And I'm just like, I don't know what you're like. It works

out. He makes it work, but it's pretty, I don't know that you could get everyone to go along with that IRL. You know what I'm saying? I was trying to figure out like the mechanics of the plan too, because that's the way that my brain works. He talks so fast that it doesn't matter. They do talk so fast. It brought me to like reading about the treaty that was signed works. He talks so fast that it doesn't matter. They do talk so fast. I know, it's great. It brought me to like reading about the treaty that was signed with Vichy France about how they used to

they got to keep some of it unoccupied and then Paris was completely occupied and I think it has something to do with the fact that Casablanca is like

a territory of France and Nazi Germany does not control those yet because they're still trying to like advance their war diplomatically and not exactly

and not draw like the US into this conflict which I do I love the like moral nuance to like advance their war different types of empire yeah and not exactly and not draw like the u.s into this conflict which is i do i love the like moral nuance of of major strasser's questions to rick as he's like interviewing him when when he first walks in he's like i'd like to talk to you rick about your past and whatnot and i know about this and he's like you're from new york city would you be okay with them with the nazi tanks rolling into new york and like all that stuff that they're sort of like poking and prodding

about the geopolitical implications of him being American, but not really laying it all out there in the text, I thought was really effective. And I think a lot of that has to do with like, you probably, we probably are not bringing the same level of historical context

about what actual Vichy France was like at this time. But, and like where they were in the process of taking over Europe with Nazi Germany, but yeah. But there's also like that, in that scene in particular, Bobby, where Bogart's response is, you know, there are certain parts of New York you don't want to come to, you know, like, and is that a metaphor for the Jewish community uprising, you know, and defeating Nazism in the form of, you know, American soldiers? Is it about, you know, black communities, Hispanic communities? Is it just about the New York ethic and saying, like, fuck you, the mentality the New Yorkers tend to have towards these things?

Is it about the incoming American participation in the world at large? You know what I mean? Like, this is and I mean this in the best sense, like American propaganda as well you know there is that I think very like touching scene when Carl the waiter sits with uh two cafe you know patrons who are on their way to America and they all are they're like practicing their English so they'll be at home when they get to America and they all like toast together and it is like you know three uh three exiles like having a moment but also like america is like the promised safe land and you know rick as the american stand in i stick my neck out for nobody but like by the end obviously you know victor laszlo is like welcome back to the cause so it's and it's all about like america as the both the the promised land and also the savior of like of the rest of europe you know it's arguing

its politics are clear i happen to agree with them so it makes it you know easier yeah well i mean all the the immigrants who participated in the making of the movie all yeah emigrated to the united states of america and so invariably it has a very uh ethnocentric point of view about the greatness of the American dream. It's fortunate, I guess, that it is about the one war about which there is very little confusion about whether interventionism was the right move. Exactly. Very few people are willing to debate that. That one turned out all right.

Yeah. Bad choice. But I think if you had made a movie like this about any war in the 80 years that followed, it would be a more complex discussion of whether, you know, Rick's past and Rick's future as an interventionist was valid or was the right moral choice.

In this movie, it's just like, of course, we should not just make Ilsa happy by letting her be with the man who will take care of her, but also Laszlo's pursuit is pure and good. And he will

help take down the third reich and that is good and so some of it is just like good timing you know the good timing if this was a film about vietnam we wouldn't be saying that no about some of rick's decisions we might be questioning those things so that's another reason why a movie like this it's like right time right place can we talk about the music for just a second that i mean the so as time goes by was not the preferred choice of max steiner who did the music um and who wrote sports for gromit the wind and king kong and a bunch of other things and basically they didn't have time to to redo it and so then he just used his time goes by to as the major motif along with the marseilles for the entire movie and just again it's one of those things where it's like like

it was a product maybe not a coin flip but uh the the circumstances you know just happened this way to turn into like one of the great scores and like one of the great artistic decisions they sort of they didn't back into it but uh it's amazing i'm like amazing imagine if they didn't have as time goes by yeah there's also this great movie magic aspect of it which is the duly wilson is not a piano player he's a drummer who is like if you know ebert points this out but as you watch the movie he's basically just like banging the keys with no musicality whatsoever as he's singing these beautiful songs. And especially as time goes by and Julie Wilson, like,

you know, just one of those kinds of transcended voices that like haunts movies. You know, you hear him singing and talking to Rick throughout the history of movies. He just moves the piano so much. He just wants to move that thing all around. He's like, I'll come over to you.

I'll chat for a little bit. I'll start a song. I'll start a song. I'll stop'll start a song i'll start a song i'll stop three seconds later i'll start again i'll stop 10 seconds later like what is everyone else doing in the club while he's just starting and stopping this single song for her for ilsa i love i i love his performance when rick hears as time goes by for the first time when elsa asked him to play it and and rick storms into the room and duly wilson is like he he gets it he's like i fucked up i gotta get out of here i gotta roll this piano out of here asap stool up on the piano and just like pushes it away incredible it's incredibly tender that rick uses his piano as the

as the place to hide and to hide the papers like i love that perfect metaphor to look in there because they because they overlook the person who is like the entertainment but is also like a a key figure in the success of this club um i i love steiner's ego like i love it he's just like i didn't write this song so i don't want it to be my movie he's like do you know who i am like i fucking swore gone with the wind i mean he is he's the john williams of his era for sure right and then for him to say okay okay, well, you're telling me that this song has to be in there because of production concerns. I think it was because Ingrid Bergman

had cut her hair for a different role and they didn't have time to let it grow back out for the movie. And he was like, all right, fine. Then I'll just make the entire score a better version of this song in my mind. And it will serve the purpose of making the whole score

feel like the central emotional text of the movie. And so the score is it's unbelievable it's like it's so sweet and romantic and earnest but not somehow not cheesy at all it's absolutely amazing i think we should probably just talk about ingrid bergman just a little bit before we move on to the next movie because she is shot in a way, I think, that also changed the way that female movie stars were filmed. The lighting on this film, and I believe Arthur Edison is the cinematographer, and he also shot Maltese Falcon and a number of other movies. But she's shot almost entirely from the left side throughout the entire film, just her preferred side.

And there's lights above her head and underneath her face and she is glimmering in almost every sequence of the movie and very by design of course she was thousand degrees on that set it must have been so hot um and you're talking old school hollywood movie lighting too and massive heavy cameras um and she obviously she gives an extraordinary performance she's one of the great actors of her generation but but, uh, she's so amazing to look at, you know, she's like a statue. It's, I would like those lights to follow me around. Um, I can't decide between, I mean, I guess you gotta go with the white suit that she's

wearing the first night, but the stripes number with the hat, you know, for the daytime when they go to Blue Parrot and when she's like, you know, Victor Lazo is my husband and he was, you know, when we were together in Paris, is also just a really iconic... I would like... I don't think I could pull off a life

in which that would be appropriate, but, wow, she really makes it work. It's iconic stuff. Cheating on your husband with a bar owner? No, I meant wearing the stripes and that little hat, you know? But you meant her lifestyle choices, you know? She lived fast and loose. Sure, that also.

She was a woman of the world. Yeah, she was only 26 years old when they made this film, which is pretty remarkable. Right. And she's basically like, I was too young to understand that I was not in love with Victor Laszlo. I just really liked being in Paris with some, you know, cosmopolitan people. We've all been there. She goes on, you know, like a massive, massive career. She makes Gaslight and then she makes three movies with Hitchcock.

She marries Roberto Rossellini. She makes a series of films she makes three movies with Hitchcock. She marries Roberto Rossellini. She makes a series of films with him that are all incredible. But this is the, this is her, this is, this is the one.

This is the, this is the movie for which she is best remembered. And it's probably her best performance too, even though there's like a lot of complexity

in some of those 50s and 60s movies that she made. What'd you think of Ingrid Bergman, Bob? Have you seen her? Did you, had you seen a movie

with her before? I've seen Gaslight. Gaslight. You should see Notorious. Okay. Which is, you know, like this, sort of, but darker

and with Cary Grant. Claude Rains as well. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's a great movie. I thought that like the way that she

sort of effortlessly fills the screen and like captures the eye like the focus of the tension in the camera and the light allows basically everything else to happen like without her there is no like centrifugal force to the movie yeah at all because because every like the the shadows behind her that you can't have that without the light on her face like the the the light moving through the scenes like you can't have that without her being the thing that it lands on like and all of these reaction shots of her that aren't totally giving away the story too early like when they first meet when her and humphrey bogart first not meet but when they first see each other again in the cafe i thought they they played it so straight like unbelievably was not overdone the way that she sees him walking in and he sees her um in the

cafe for the first time of course they linger on her face for a while but it's like there is like nuance and confusion a little bit of mystery about what's going to happen to the way that she looks at him and so you know even though she's not quite as like fast talking as the rest of the characters in the movie, and it's not quite as like an overpowering performance, it's really central to how the rest of the movie operates around her. You want to say anything about Michael Curtiz? He's like hugely influential workmanlike figure in the history of Hollywood who had his hands on more movies than you might think. He made like 30 plus movies from 1930 to 1945, was like a real hired hand on a lot of different kinds of movies. He made a Robin Hood movie. He made Captain Blood. He made a bunch of movies with Ed or G. Robinson. He and Bogey had a great collaboration. He made a movie a couple of years after this movie, I think called Passage to Marseille, which is sort of like a soft revival of Casablanca with Bogart.

And he's one of those guys who doesn't have the Orson Welles or Alfred Hitchcock level reputation, but was essential to the history of Hollywood. And another, you know, another emigre, another guy who came to the country looking to work and then somehow somehow became this like pivotal figure um he made he made musicals i think he directed 15 actors to academy award nominations there's just something uh amazing about a person like that too um somewhat

similar to the person in the next movie that we'll talk about too people don't necessarily think of when they think of the movies that they made but that are kind of critical to them existing in the first place you know they wouldn't happen without these kind of crafts people who took on these big jobs. Casablanca, what else is there to say? Bobby, will you rewatch it? Yeah, definitely. This feels like one of those movies that you like find a regular occasion to watch.

You know, like for me, I watch Home Alone every Christmas because it's Christmas. And like that is like when you were talking about how it became popular not just from for people owning it and before streaming it was like they're showing it in theaters like yearly i was reading um on the wikipedia page for this movie that like one of the ways that it was like revived in theaters with it was that they were showing it at a theater close by to harvard and all the students made it a tradition to go there before they took their finals every year or something like that

and so this feels like one of those movies that can stand up to that sort of I make it part of my lifestyle kind of expectation and so yeah I'll definitely make it

a regular rewatch of mine So can you guys guess what number this film clocks in at on the most recent BFI site and sound poll? It is in the top 100. Okay, I was going to say.

48. Bobby, what's your guess? I was going to say 42. It comes in tied at 63. That's fine. It's tied with, frankly, two of my five favorite movies of all time, The Third Man and Goodfellas. Okay.

So that's weird. Just a normal triple feature right there. That's kind of amazing that says a lot about this this most recent sight and sound poll it's like so those movies are tied for 63 huh okay it's like it it has almost it has become basic in the you know internet sense to be like oh i love casablanca but like i gotta be fucking honest i love cas Casablanca. So, you know, I'd like to think, were I to vote in sight and sound, that I would honor my principles and put Casablanca on it. So it would go Barbie one, Casablanca two? You know what?

Relax. We've got, what, April, May, June, we've got three months. Uh-huh. And I told you I'm not going to do this with you. Do what? June we've got three months and I have I told you I'm not going to do this with you do what have you be a concerned troll in real time to piss me off we'll see it when we see it would quantum mania go between Barbie and Casablanca or behind Casablanca yeah I think actually I'm starting a separate multiversal sight and sound poll that's only about films

in the multiverse and I'm hoping that over time that will supersede the bfi poll you know and everyone wanted just voted in my multiverse poll okay what do you think what's sad is that like a million people not a million people but at least like 10 people are like listening to this and then gonna try to like organize online to help support your multiverse i'll be'll be there for them, I promise. Let's go to the next movie in this swap. So, neither of you had seen this movie before.

Correct. Which is very exciting. The movie is The In-Laws from 1979, directed by Arthur Hiller. It's written by, notably, Andrew Berkman,

who's a pretty important screenwriter in the 70s and 80s. And it stars two of my favorite humans, Peter Falk and Alan Arkin. And I was wondering if you guys, if this seems like a movie that has kind of forgotten a time.

I did mention at the end of last week's episode that it was recently added to the Criterion Collection. And so it's getting a little bit of a boost. When I was growing up, this was my dad and my dad's friends, one of their favorite movies. This is a movie that was referenced constantly in my house. I remember my dad's friends one of their favorite movies this is a movie that was referenced

constantly in my house my i remember my dad's best friend this was his favorite movie of all time and it didn't necessarily have like a massive kind of hbo shelf life so it wasn't on tv all the time but it was a movie that was on vhs all the time around me um and comedies are tough. They don't always age well. I think our sense of what is and is not funny changes over time. They also rely on pacing and timing. Absolutely. Intensely. One of the things I like about the three movies that we picked here is they're all basically in that like 95 minute zone. You know, they're not, none of them really drag. You know, the movie itself is about, if anyone hasn't seen it who's listening to this,

is about a middle-class Long Island dentist whose daughter is getting married. Alan Arkin plays the dentist. And he has yet to meet the father of the groom, who is played by Peter Falk. And Peter Falk plays a kind of mysterious businessman, government attache. We don't totally know what it is that he does,

but he travels a lot. And so he has not yet been able to meet the family. And lo and behold, he is some sort of international operative and he manages to get Alan Arkin's character engaged in a lot of his hijinks. And so what starts out as this like domestic comedy very quickly becomes a spy thriller with a lot of his hijinks um and so what starts out is this like domestic comedy very quickly becomes a spy thriller with a lot of jokes in it so uh bob we'll start with you what did you

think of the in-laws it's so funny like the both of the the lead the two lead performances are like perfectly within their boxes but also like their boxes are so expansive like like alan arkin's sort of like dry uh new york sensibilities and peter fox like everything i say will come true performance like to the very end of the movie i didn't know if he was actually a cia agent or not i'm like sitting there watching it like when is the rug going to be pulled out from under them until they pull up at the end and they're like yeah we lied to you you know this he is a cih and i just had to lie to you this whole time to alan arkin's character um i i love how movies from like the 1970s and 80s they're all like we'll get on a plane and go talk to a dictator you know i feel

like this happens so nobody does that anymore they're like too afraid of what the political implications of putting that in a movie. That is like focus tested out of movies these days. But I think I think it still was going strong for sure. Maybe it was peaking

in the 1970s. Well, it's funny that you say that though because there was a movie that did that in the last 10 years. The Seth Rogen James Franco comedy.

Right. Which was effectively like canceled out of society because it was too risky a move to do. So you're right that nowadays you would never see something like that ever again. It helps that the, you know, the dictator and the third world nation is kind of invented in this movie, which is a way to necessarily solve around that. But anyhow, Amanda,

what'd you think of The In-Laws? Delightful. Peter Falk is really just underappreciated, I feel, by our generation and later generations like I have an appreciation for Peter Falk because my dad also like your dad was just like that was the guy and I meant to ask my dad about this movie because I'm sure he loved it um but maybe after Biner he just didn't try to But I don't feel like his particular brand of like incredibly cool and like playing it straight and calm sort of, but also like not quite suave. Yes. Unflappable, but awkward. Yes. Yeah. Is just an incredible, uh comedic presence and i like how

you know he gets to be sort of this straight man but there is like humor in every situation that they put him in so they both get to be funny even as alan arkin is like going completely nuts and then this scene like the firing squad scene when it just devolves into like three stooges that is the one of the funniest things i've ever seen and it's really rare in like for a comedy to build in that way where so like the climactic moment and they're just all going for it it's unbelievable that's definitely my favorite scene in the movie. And amazingly choreographed chaos that's happening in that moment too.

But I mean, I guess I should just give a little bit of context. I think Falk, one of the reasons why I wanted to do this movie is that Falk, of course, was coming off of an eight-year run as Columbo. He had been a movie star and had appeared in Frank Sinatra movies.

And he was a close friend and collaborator of John Cassavetes in the late 60s and early 70s but he got famous as Columbo the network television detective

and Columbo was a great show Columbo's having a little bit of a moment right now because it's on Peacock and Poker Face has been airing

the Rian Johnson Natasha Lyonne detective show in a way and Natasha Lyonne's performance is clearly very inspired by Peter Fox's performance. And Peter Fox's persona as a screen actor is hugely informed by Humphrey Bogart and by Sam Spade. And so there is this connectivity, I think, between

all of these characters. You know, the character in The In-Laws, Vince, is slightly different than Columbo, but he has that, the mannerisms and the manner that you're talking about, Amanda, is basically ported over. He's a movie star, a TV actor who has a style. And you come to the movies, much like you come to Alan Arkin movies, for his style. Alan Arkin was a little bit more of a flexible performer. He had played villains in films, he played serious dramas, but this character that he plays in The In-Llaws is more or less what his persona became understood as to the kind of angsty anxious frustrated middle-class normie guy who gets thrown into frustrating situations and Falk is the agent of chaos who never loses his cool the reason the movie happened is because they wanted to make a movie together and I think it was Arkin who

identified Falk as somebody that he wanted to make a movie with. He had been in kind of a lull in his career. And so Andrew Bergman, who was a co-writer of Blazing Saddles, and I think was the originator of Blazing Saddles when it was called Tex-X, that was the original script. And then, you know, Steinberg and Mel Brooks

and a series of other people came on, Richard Pryor came on to kind of work on that script. And then he went on to become a director himself, probably best known for The Freshman, the Matthew Broderick, Marlon Brando 80s film. But he is widely considered like one of the funnier screenwriters of that era. And Arthur Hiller is the ultimate screenwriter's director

who made movies that were written by Paddy Chayefsky. And he directed a couple of movies that were written by Neil Simon. And he made Love Story was nominated for Best Picture and Best Director

for Love Story an adaptation of a well-known novel and Arthur Hiller has like it's kind of like anti-style it's kind of like

whatever the movie needs is what I'll give it and he's not considered an auteur he's considered very similar to Michael Curtiz somebody who brings

a kind of professionalism to all of his movies but he's a great fit for a movie like this because you can see that it had a great script, but it also had two performers who were just like, let's have some fun. And as I rewatched it, I was like, this is kind of an Adam McKay movie. You know, like an early, you know, like zany,

but has a couple of serious ideas in it kind of movie. And it didn't feel aged to me the way that I feared it might when I asked you guys to watch it so I was relieved about that Bob how do you feel like it worked as a

comedy and from the time frame it comes from it played so well for me personally because I mean Falk is amazing he's so compelling

and so charismatic on screen and the way that he plays it straight just straight enough but also like he knows how you think he's bullshitting.

And so like that, you feel that the whole time. For me, Arkin is the reason that it was so funny because I just relate to that character so much. And I loved how the movie structure was these successive scenes of him feeling like what was going on around him was ludicrous. Like there's the dinner table where he feels like he's being lied to. And then there's in his dentist's office where he feels like he's interrupting him during his job.

And then, of course, all of the ridiculous hijinks as it goes. But he's playing every single one of those situations at the exact same pitch. He's like, because that is just the type of guy that he is. But when you put it in the context of this international cia spy thriller comedy it's like it's so funny that this is the guy because you imagine yourself acting this way about normal things in your life and then you think how would i act in a ridiculous situation like this well i guess i only know how to act exactly like this i'm at 11 all of the time and that is me like if i walk outside and it's raining and I forgot my umbrella,

I'm, I'm Alan Arkin in the dentist's office when I'm being interrupted. Like I'm Alan Arkin in front of the firing squad about to get killed. Like that, that's how I act when the Mets lose a baseball game. So the fact that he could just play that the whole, the whole time. Also the movie starts with a Mets joke,

which I don't know if you remember that, like when you suggested that to us, but when they complete the robbery and Falk's character is on top of the building and they walk up to him and he's like, hey, we got what you need. And he's like, the Mets, they traded for another pitcher.

All they got is pitchers. I'm like, I'm in good hands. This is a movie that's going to be still for me, I think. I remember that. And it was one of the reasons why I was excited for you specifically to watch it, Bob. Although, you can, well, you don't really support the Mets, unfortunately, because you're from Atlanta. You guys always hold that against me.

Zach started doing this the other day. We turned on, I don't know, a Braves game. And then Zach just kept being like, oh, look, your Atlanta Braves are thriving or they're falling apart. And I was just like, can you calm down? It's your insecurities that you're bringing to this. No question about it. I was just a resident of the city of Atlanta in the 90s and happened to watch some fantastic baseball teams trounce your respective teams. But I'm happy for you guys.

I'm sorry that happened. I'm happy for you. I don't know. What else jumped out to you about the in-laws? Really, speaking of that initial heist sequence, great. I love it anytime someone needs to steal something by just moving the whole damn truck. You know? I was like, wow, I see this.

Fast five, I know. But I was like, great magnet technology, A plus stuff. Really liked that. I'm a little concerned for Alan Arkin's wife and daughter, who are stopped at the bank with, you know, an engraving. And no real follow-up on what happens after they wind up in the clutches of law enforcement. I mean, they make it to the wedding, so it seems like it turns out okay, but like, you know, I was a little concerned from them. They really just disappear from the scene for an hour. Otherwise, very delightful stuff. All of the individual set pieces are really funny and exciting and feel not low budget. You know, it feels like this is a movie that, you know,

there's a lot of location shooting. There's the, you know, the famous tarmac sequence where Serpentine, Serpentine, you know, Peter Falk, screaming at Arkin about how to run away so he doesn't get shot, which is such a great moment. It reminded me of Amanda being like, do you know what you're supposed to do when you're running away from an alligator? Well, yeah, there we go.

It is inspired by the alligator run, I think. And it's not, don't i think i was just really surprised by how sort of modern i thought the movie was and very similar to casablanca i didn't really feel like it had aged a whole lot i think um our suspicion of the cia kind of continues a, but we like the idea of a fun CIA agent we can trust, you know? There's a lateness to both Casablanca and the end laws that, well, and really more of the end laws that, you know, continues to top gun Maverick where it's like, we're not really going to name all the countries or worry about like this. Like, we're not really going to think about these geopolitical issues. We're just going to like kick a trash can with the Vichy water bottle in it, you know, and like move on.

Yeah. Is it Tejada? Is this sort of Tijuana, you know, stand in, you know, the two changing fake countries names. It's an island south of Honduras. Sure. Yeah. The other thing that I like about it too is that it gives you an early look at a lot of incredible vat guys and memorable figures in movie history you know ed begley jr plays a cia agent um in one of his earliest roles

he tells great stories on the criterion blu-ray about peter falk uh treating him like a dumb kid because he knew his father ed begley senior uh james i'm watching uh better call sol right now so that was a real like whoa moment oh begley Oh, Begley, he's wonderful in that show too. Yeah, he is. James Hong is in this movie quite memorably as the proprietor of an airline

explaining what to do in the event of a crash to Alan Arkin's character. That's like a three minute scene where you're just watching what you're supposed to do. He's like, put the mask on

and you wrap it around your thing and it's like, none of it is in English and it's just like, I am riveted by like the way that this guy is making Alan Arkin feel. It's so good and the great David Pamer plays a cabbie who drives them around as they pull off the heist stealing from Fox character's own office which is also incredibly funny because they have that great conversation sitting at the diner watching The Price is Right. I was like The Price is Right is also not expired. It still works.

It's also really good when Alan Arkin finally makes it back to the cab and they're just in the bar being like, we good? We need to settle up. And he's just like screaming like in the background. Being shot at in the street. Really funny. Wonderful stuff. The dinner scene where they're sitting around and he's talking about the giant beaked baby

stealing flies. He's like, they picked up humans right in front of us. Fl about the giant beaked baby stealing flies. And he's like, they picked up humans right in front of us. Flies. Flies. Not birds. Flies.

So good. It's so hard to talk about comedies because it just inevitably devolves into just being like, I thought this was so great when,

but it isn't. I thought this was so great when movie. And I like, I always wonder like how certain things survive and when they come back and why they're interesting um i this is one that i feel like is kind of due for a revival if it gets

a run on hbo max or it gets a run and it feels like it very well could yeah um i part of the reason i thought it was so interesting too is that like the criterion collection never reissues studio comedies. And this is like Warner Brothers in the height of the 1970s when movies were literally the greatest art form we've ever seen, in my personal opinion. Right. And when Warner Brothers was the studio

of Clint Eastwood and Stanley Kubrick, had released All the President's Men, Dog Day Afternoon, Deliverance, the early Scorsese films, Alan Pakula movies, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, Superman, Superfly, Enter the Dragon, The Towering Inferno, nine Academy Award nominations for Best Picture in the 70s for Warner Brothers. And this is like the last big hit that they released. And then we go to the 80s when movies start to kind of sort of suck a little bit.

And now they're just Max. And now they're Max. I was going to mention that. Did you see this news, Bob, that HBO is being rebranded to Max? I did. What do you think about that?

I don't have any interest in corporate restructuring, so I don't really care. Yeah, Bobby's with me on this island. Remember when we got lost on the Warner Brothers lot? Sure, yeah.

That was so great. And you were just like staring at the map and I was just like dancing down the lane past like the bank. Kind of a scene out of the in-laws in a lot of ways. The best place to get lost. It was so fun. I love that place. I absolutely love the Warner Brothers lot.

One of the best places in America. Let's go to Spy Kids. Because when you were pitching ideas, Bob, I really wanted one that made sense with this formulation. And I feel like we got one. This movie fits kind of firmly in the evolution or devolution of how seriously we should be taking the movies that we're watching from Casablanca all the way down to Spy Kids but I assume you were a kid when you saw this movie for the first time I was yeah I think this was the first movie actually I don't think I know this was the first movie I ever remember seeing in theaters wow amazing it came out the

day before my fifth birthday so I was four I might have gone to the theater before that but honestly my parents were not huge movie theater people um and so I don't think they would have made a point of like bringing me before I was really like movie theater age. Like maybe you guys will with your kids. But so it really had to be a movie that I like wanted to go to and wanted to sit through. That was a little bit of a stray shot. You know, we're just trying to raise two children. No, I mean, like my that wasn't a shot at you guys.

I was just like, you guys are waiting for the moment where they will be ready to go to the theater. My parents were waiting for the moment where I was making them take me to the theater. It's a little bit of a different philosophy to it. And so this was the first movie I think that I wanted to go see in theaters because a lot of my friends were talking about it. And now I'm just imagining like the four-year-old playground conversation. Like, hey guys, you seen Spy Kids? Yes. It was a huge thing not only because

like this was the perfect time for a movie to kind of like integrate itself into like kid culture because of the way the toys were being marketed at this time like you know they they give out movie figures at mcdonald's for spy kids like i guess i'll backtrack a little bit so 2001 written directed by robert rodriguez who got his start in the indie film scene of the 1990s his career became very closely intertwined with quentin tarantino um his first movie el mariachi famously was made for seven thousand dollars marketed as such he never intended it for it to be released to the world released wide he just wanted to use it to sell to spanish-speaking tv stations so that he could get

enough money and make a return on investment and make his next movie in his next movie his next movie until he had enough money to make his own movies that would be released wide um and the trailer for el mariachi became so famous in in hollywood that miramax wanted wanted it so badly and his agent was shopping it around so aggressively that it became a bidding war for el mariachi um which ended up making like millions of dollars for a seven thousand dollar budget which is insane um and then so robert rodriguez's career trajectory comes from this place of i want control over all of the processes of my movies so he's the writer he's the director he scores a lot of his movies he's the writer, he's the director, he scores a lot of his movies, he's the cinematographer, he edits his own movies. Not for all of them, but for most of them. And I feel like around the turn

of the millennium, around 2000, he is starting to become more and more commercial as this El Mariachi trilogy has taken off a little bit. And he's gained more notoriety in the indie film scene and spy kids is his first attempt at like a big mainstream family oriented kids movie and i feel like it's this perfect culmination of him wanting to have complete creative control um over his movies with the tonality of his movies being funny and sweet and earnest that it just kind of takes off. The movie was made for $35 million. It makes almost $150 million at the box office. And it comes at this time where he has a lot more access to the CGI technology that he wants to be able to play out his vision on screen of this

blended kind of CGI, practical, beautiful, colorful sets. And what is clearly most interesting about him as a filmmaker to me, his earnest, playful imagination. So the thing that he did that you're describing is he launched, he's one of the very few filmmakers to successfully launch effectively his own production company studio troublemaker studios which is the thing that he launched along with elizabeth avellan who is his then wife and i think is still his producing partner to this day um is they they had this production company called los hooligans that produced, you know, the films that you cited, Bob, that produced Desperado and From Dusk Till Dawn.

And he was known in the 90s as, well, certainly to me, as one of my favorite directors. And as you say, kind of one of Quentin Tarantino's running buddies and a guy who made really fun,imy genre stuff violent movies he made the faculty he made um you know he was into horror he was into kind of these kind of this kind of mexican reimagining of the cowboy movie he made crime movies spy kids is kind of when i jumped off the train because i was like i'm 20 i'm I don't want to watch Spy Kids. I want to watch what Quentin is doing, Kill Bill. That was where my head was at. And so I don't think,

I think it was probably 15 years before I saw Spy Kids. And even though it went on to become this pretty big franchise for one of my favorite directors, I kind of lost interest and I probably picked back up with him around the time of Sin City four or five years later, because that was an adaptation of a comic book that I liked and it was grittier and it was, you know, violent and it felt more in the mold of the kinds of movies that he had made. So this is an interesting one for you to pick, Bob, because it's where I got off the train with one of my favorite directors. And kind of severed the hardcore emotional connection I think I had to him as a director. He wrote an amazing book about how to make movies on a low budget.

That was one of the source texts of the 1990s for aspiring independent filmmakers. And this vaulted him in many ways. Amanda, what about for you? Do you remember? Had you never seen this before? I had never seen this before. Oh, interesting. And I knew of Robert Rodriguez and, you know, I associate him as in the Tarantino universe and as a maker of like pretty visceral, uh, grimy, as you said, movies that you and your friends love. And I'm just like, uh-huh, here's some boy stuff.

You know? And that sounds dismissive, and I actually don't mean it in that way. It's like a steward of technically accomplished movies that you guys are really into. Genres that you don't take. And that aren't my bag. So I would say I had like awareness respect and like not a lot of knowledge if that makes any sense um also hadn't seen this movie because i was not five when it came out and um you know there's like a i feel that i've seen kids movies

from like the 80s and early 90s i went back and caught up caught up on that I wasn't old enough for but you don't really go backwards to watch like the children's movies that you aged out of right well for me especially live action live action kids movies are even to this day something we don't cover that closely on the show and that are often feeling more infantilizing to me than animated movies. I'm not totally sure why that is. I think sometimes

live action movies feel like they need to shift tone more aggressively to make sure it's clear that they're for kids. Right. Whereas animation sometimes is doing the opposite.

This one is interesting though because Spy Kids, while it is very silly, features a bunch of movie stars and a lot of really gifted actors and is violent. And it has like a few kind of big and complex ideas about like mind control and the fate of the world.

And it's like, it is a high stakes story. It's Oppenheimer for kids. It is. It is really Oppenheimer. Which is like what I thought about. Yeah. And so there's a part of me, I mean, obviously when you think about Rodriguez, like from the mind of someone who made, you know, Planet mean, obviously, when you think about Rodriguez, like from the mind of someone

who made, you know, Planet Terror, like, of course, he would make a movie like this that is this similarly visceral. But Bob, like, did this reorganize your brain chemistry as a kid,

seeing such a weird film? Dude, I don't know. You know what the weirdest part about this is that for me to come to Robert Rodriguez not knowing anything about this as a child and like to have liked Spy Kids, to not really care about the franchise of spy kids like i wasn't in the

theater for every installment after the original um and they got like kind of progressively worse as they go on i remember watching them on tv but to to have this be the movie and not even think about the fact that he was part of this sort of central text and time period for both the show but also for like the type of movies that i like now um and like becoming a tarantino fan like 15 years after this and not really realizing that this was the same guy who was like associated in this universe it's really weird the story um it's like it's a family drama it's a family drama comedy where Antonio Banderas and Carla Gugino play the parents. Pretty good kid performances from Alexa Vega and Daryl Sabara playing the kids, the siblings. Very cute.

Very good. I think the movie doesn't work if they're not good. Yeah. I agree. Really believable sibling dynamic where the older sister has this sort of badassery and the younger brother is kind of this this insecure not really sure but like has some talent there but it's not really sure how to execute on it and i wonder why i related to this kid when i was growing up um and they basically have to save the world or we're not

really sure about the stakes until later on in the movie um when they get called into action because a lot of other cia agents orS agents that are called in this movie are disappearing. The OSS was the precursor to the CIA during World War II. Yes. In this movie it still exists, I suppose. So I guess to avoid

bringing the Central Intelligence Agency into this universe, which carried a more complex legacy at the time. Sure. 2001. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. story the story is the uh the parents get called to go figure out where all of these these uh disappearing agents have gone um and it turns out that uh the the children's television show host played by alan coming has been kidnapping them along with his minion who is literally named dr minion uh played by tony shalhoub and kind of amazingly um and the parents get captured the kids have to go save them uh and

along the way they're sort of learning their skills learning what they naturally have been passed on to their parents even though they didn't know that they were spies and this story structure um while it's like incorporating different things like mind control and world domination and that sort of thing the story structure essentially is just kids got to save their parents it's like incorporating different things like mind control and world domination and that sort of thing, the story structure essentially is just kids got to save their parents. It's not that different from something like Incredibles. It's not that different really from Casablanca where it's like, here's four people.

If they fail, the wider world is going to suffer the ripples and the consequences. And so that like small family story, which clearly is important to Rodriguez in the way that he writes it, that like the family he comes from, he's one of 10 growing up. So a lot of his early shorts and stuff were about his siblings and about his family dynamic growing up. It plays really well. Like it's not too cheesy and it's genuinely pretty funny. One of the things that I thought about while watching it was what I assume was the influence of like H.R. Puffin stuff, 60s and 70s practical TV shows

like using the Fiegan Floop character that Alan Cumming plays is like as a TV show kind of host impresario who has this world of creatures and then we come to find

those creatures are actually humans who have been transmogrified. I hate when that happens. That's the worst. Except for the thumbs. Yeah, except for their CGI. But this blending, like you said, of CGI, practical,

this weird, almost psychedelic kind of approach to telling the story. And, you know, like streamlining a very weird set of subcultures and influences, movie and TV influences into five and seven-year-olds brains, which I always really enjoy. But as I was watching the movie, I was like, this is, there are some mature themes and some weirdness. Also, you know, if I'm being 100% honest, Carly Gugino and Terry Hatcher are just like firmly in the Sean zone. And so I was like very distracted by how hot they are in this movie and how like they're styled to be very hot.

But it's a spy movie, you know? I found that inspiring. Also, there's one point when the parents set out to save the world before they're captured. They look fantastic. Banderas as well. And then they're captured um they look fantastic banderas as well and then they're in an awesome so good underwater car and carla gajina says um you know here we are i'm finally out in the world and all we can do is like think about the kids i felt that man i felt that that is representation may we all look like that one day.

You know what I'm saying? May we get there? I just, it was wonderful. But to your point, like the psychedelic, like the imagination, as you said, Bobby, is fantastic in this. And like the references, obviously, and like the TV character. And I was thinking a little bit about, you know, practically how that device also just makes it like slightly less scary for children even though like those creatures are pretty weird and are like if teletubbies went really wrong but um you know because i i watched this movie thinking about showing it to my son and i was like oh that

is what you know would help like make him when he is old enough to, like, you know, know what things are, to make it feel, like, friendly or, like, make the stakes. That'll be a good opportunity for Knox and I to just do, like, a personal career arc of Terry Hatcher together. You know, I can just talk about her work and what she's contributed to society. society the imagination extends you know i think beyond the monsters and like the creativity to just like some absolutely top-notch spy kid technology and just like really if you are nine years old and you imagine what spies could do you know and just stock the food stock the fridge with food magically and then you like heat up the freeze dried McDonald's. Just incredible stuff. The weird like fish boat car that they have.

Yeah. What was the merchandising like for you, Bobby? They sold it all. They sold it all. It's incredible. They sold all of the gadgets and I had them all. I must say my parents must have sent hundreds of dollars to mail order for mail orders for toys to come back.

And for me to have the Spy Kids branded bubble gum, the Spy Kids branded glasses I used to wear around all of the time. Amazing. Which are back in style, by the way. Another way, which like the late 90s, early 2000s, my college years are coming back to haunt me. But that makes me a little

queasy and also speaks to the achievement in this movie because like i would want all those toys too like really cool stuff great house by the way that they're living in great safe house yeah just you know on like the beach somewhere that's not a lot of security in that safe house though that is true yeah they got in pretty easy they like busted through the windows i'm like how safe is a safe house if you can just kick the windows the thumbs can kick the windows down you know it's the the the oss is the enemy is you know coming that's true the call is coming from inside the house right yeah i um i i agree with your your queasiness about about the merchandising of these things,

but it's going in the opposite direction of what it's like now. It's not like we have a toy, let's make a movie. It's like we have this movie that's a smash hit that was thought of all in this guy's head. Absolutely. Yeah, totally. That is what is, to me, feels so different about watching this movie now than a lot of the movies that are coming out

that are kind of geared towards a similar audience or like made with a similar sensibility is that it doesn't really feel like there's room left in hollywood for like a movie like this to to be marketed where like it's weird as hell and it all came from this guy's imagination and it's not servicing the past present or future of already existing intellectual property. Right. It's a good point. This is a risk. Like, there's thumbs walking around. Yeah. That's weird.

I mean, I'll take it even further. Like, I think one of the cool things about Rodriguez is he is a genuine entrepreneur. And not just, he's an artist and somebody who makes movies and TV shows. But, you know, shortly after this, he launched his own television network, El Rey. He's like participated in like, you know, luchador wrestling and those promotions. He is like a fascinating producer of movies and pushes technology that can be used in movies. Like Alita Battle Angel became like kind of a weird punchline in the discussion about movies. But like that's a person that James Cameron handpicked to make a lead a battle angel and create a different way of seeing movies. Like he's a really interesting guy who's had a really interesting career and he's not McDonald's.

He's a guy, you know, he's not like he is. He is the inventor of a lot of these concepts. And a lot of those concepts are informed by things that he loved as a kid that we may have loved as kids. And he's kind of processing those tastes and that passion very similarly to the way that like Tarantino sometimes puts things in a blender and then pulls it out and gives you a great new drink you've never tasted before. Rodriguez is doing it, but he's also doing it kind of at scale at times. And the other thing that is notable about this is there's going to be another Spy Kids movie, I guess on Netflix at some point in the next year.

So even though this franchise is now, what, 23, 22 years old, it's still going and he's still finding a way to use it to make movies. Is it a reboot? Are Carmen and Junie back? Like, what's going on? It's a really good question. Let's take a look. Junie's so cute, man.

I mean, it's written and directed by Rodriguez, but I'm not seeing their names in the cast. I'm seeing Gina Rodriguez and unfortunately, Zachary Levi, who I'm just not a fan of. That's just deeply disappointing. Billy Magnuson though. But Billy Magnuson was great. Okay. When are we doing

a Magnuson pod? Magnuson career arc? I'm in. Yeah. He's a wild guy. Oh wow. He's in the roadhouse. That's tight.

He's almost like perfect for the tone of these kinds of movies. I mean we should talk about the cast because like it has an unbelievable stacked cast and a true ensemble with a foil for each character.

There's Alan Cumming and Shalhoub, and Cumming is toned up to 11 the entire time, and he's borderline yelling, and there's a lot of quick zooms in on his face, and he's doing weird psychedelic shit. And he's Josie and the Pussycats villain era yeah yeah exactly and then shalhoub is like this straight scientific research oriented nerdy doctor who like takes on a different uh desire as the movie goes on and then there's like banderas who's unbelievably handsome and suave and masculine handsome just

insanely handsome with like the thin glasses and the long leather trench coat. It's just such a look. But he's also kind of like a little stupid in this movie. Like he's easily manipulated, which is not really good for a spy. And then, you know, Gugino, who's like the earnest, like warm figure, but smaller parts for bit parts for Danny Trejo and Cheech Marine, who feature in a lot of Robert Rodriguez's movies and just bring such a lovely diverging energy to their two uncle characters. One is a real uncle, one is a fake uncle.

And then, Amanda, do you want to talk about the cameo at the very end of this film? I had no idea this was coming. I had no idea that Clooney was the head of the OSS and comes in at the end to do his little Mission Impossible, you know, should you choose to accept it bit. And has a great thing with like the bar over his eyes, but then removing it. Just very clever and funny.

It's great. And Clooney, because Clooney's in the extended Rodriguez family, because From Dusk Till Dawn is one of the first movies that he made as a star. And I mean, there's like a ton of great little cameos, you know, Mike Judge playing one of the, you know, one of the creatures that Floop creates. Richard Linklater's in this movie for a hot second as a cool spy. Guillermo Navarro, who's the cinematographer, is in this movie for a hot second. And also, this is the first, I think, kind of proper leading woman performance that Carla Gugino gives. And she goes on to make four or five more movies with Rodriguez and then becomes more of a star in her own right outside of the world of television. Bobby, have either of you seen True Beverly Hills? I have, yes. It's one of my least favorite movies. Yeah. Maybe next time, movie swap. That's a yeah maybe maybe next time movie swap that's a good

one true beverly hills that's a good one wow that's early it's carla gugino's like a oh my god she's the coolest one in the whole troop yeah um that would be the only movie i think they could get eileen onto a podcast so really yeah that's something i think about yeah uh she loves that movie the other thing is speaking of the Rodriguez universe this is where Machete really comes in. You know Danny Trejo is really important in this movie

and you know Rodriguez goes on to make a couple of Machete movies and it's basically inspired by the character who first shows up here. It is. Yeah.

And I love I love when they first walk into his little toy or his little gadget shop I guess and he's like sitting there working. Hilarious bit to call it

like the world's smallest camera that he's like drilling away at and you can't even see it it's sitting there working. Hilarious bit to call it the world's smallest camera that he's drilling away at and you can't even see it. It's not there. And the Juni character goes, I can't see it. And he turns it back and he's like, well, it can see you. And they turn a little iPad figure. He, in baseball, we have this archetype called wet guy

where it's just a guy who looks moist all the time. His hair is wet. His clothes look a little damp. He looks like he hasn't showered in a little bit. Trejo doing an unbelievable wet guy His clothes look a little damp. He looks like he hasn't showered in a little bit. Trejo doing an unbelievable wet guy performance in this movie. He is soaking. Yes.

He looks really kind of greasy. I've been working all day. Forgot to take a shower for the last week kind of energy. And his gruff persona is genuinely funny in the context of

the earnest family dynamic of this movie. His saves the day moment is also great. And then he cries into his brother's arms. Really funny. What do you guys think? Did this hold up as more than just a, just a kid's movie?

It did. I wish I had seen it when I was like nine. That was, I think I would, I completely understood why it was meaningful to you when I was watching it though. Cause I was like, if I was a kid when I saw this,

I would've been like, this is the coolest movie of all time. Yeah. I watched it as being like, I will show this to Knox when I was watching it though because I was like if I was a kid when I saw this I would have been like this is the coolest movie of all time. Yeah. I watched it just being like I will show this to Knox when he's old enough which is like the highest compliment

that I can give this. And I thought it was incredibly creative and charming in the way that it used a genre that I love spy movies. You know it's like

I mean I love Austin Powers but this is like a loving send-up of of bond movies in a way that feels like more generous and more like you know forward looking it will be a great gateway drug for your kid to get into bond and you know all the other spot you know and then maybe ultimately le carre and that whole world you know. So I thought it was a lot of fun. And I'm not surprised it was a hit at all because of all the ways that you cited that it's just tremendously creative. And it has two great actors, two young actors in the middle of it who you just buy the whole time. You buy them as siblings.

You buy them as heroes. You buy them all the way through. So it was a perfect amount of camp too. Just a little sprinkle of camp in there with the TV show and like the Alan Cumming character being like this professorial kind of

tinkerer like he his performance is hilarious too I thought I thought it really really worked and frankly it just made for this perfectly round podcast episode you know where it's just like

these three movies actually fit together we traded them to each other Bobby I'm glad you finally watched Casablanca man me too I can stop getting These three movies actually fit together. They do. We traded them to each other. Bobby, I'm glad you finally watched Casablanca, man. Me too. I can stop getting bullied by everybody online for not having seen it. Okay, so my final question here for you is,

what is the next most iconic movie that you've never seen before? Singing in the Rain. Singing in the Rain, yeah. Okay, so that's the next one we'll do for this. One year from today. I don't know why I'm volunteering that information because now everything that, all the energy that was for Casablanca is now just going to be refocused.

Maybe we didn't do it on a podcast. Maybe we just did it individually. But yeah, it's Singing in the Rain. Okay, maybe an all musicals movie swap. Ooh, that's good. Are you guys prepared to watch High School Musical 3? I think that's perfect actually for this. I have seen High School Musical 3? I think that's perfect actually for this. I've seen High School

Musical 1 and 2. I don't know about 3. I've never seen any High School Musical films. 3 is not very good. That's right. Flying. That's all I remember

but you gotta give me credit for that. Yeah no that was great. Sensational stuff. Thank you. Let's wrap up the singing. Thanks to our producer and co-host Bobby Wagner

for his work on this episode. We'll see you next week. CR and I are talking about horror, Renfield, The Pope's Exorcist, Evil Dead Rise, maybe A Little Boa's Afraid. We'll see you then. Thank you.