The Big Picture - Netflix's 'The Irishman' Is Alive and Well—Are Movie Theaters Dead? Plus: Antonio Banderas! | The Oscars Show

Episode Date: November 5, 2019

Martin Scorsese's 'The Irishman' is already being hailed as a sophisticated masterwork—by Sean and Amanda and dozens of critics—that will challenge for Oscars in nearly every major category. But it isn't easy to see in theaters. The battle between Netflix and theater chains to show the movie at multiplexes around the world reveals the perilous future of the movie business (3:00). Then actor Antonio Banderas joins Sean to discuss making the transition from Spain to America; his decades-long collaboration with director Pedro Almodóvar; and their latest film, 'Pain and Glory' (62:20). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Antonio Banderas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I released the book of basketball in 2009. I swore I was done. What else was there to say? The book was 704 pages long. I figured out the secret of basketball with help from Isaiah Thomas, then used it to rank the top 96 players of all time. I blew up the Basketball Hall of Fame

and turned it into a five-level Egyptian pyramid. I figured out the 33 greatest what-ifs ever. I solved every MVP debate. I made the case for Russell over Wilt. I explained why MJ was the greatest ever. I wrote hundreds of pop culture references, at least 250 inappropriate jokes, and God knows how many footnotes.

I even drove to San Diego for the epilogue to spend time with Bill Walton. And when the book reached number one on the New York Times bestseller list, that was all I ever wanted. I was done. I swore to myself I would never do a sequel. Well, I kind of lied.

So much has changed in the NBA these past 10 years. I couldn't help going back. Who could have seen the three-point boom coming? Curry's Warriors going 73-9, the hardened trade, the player empowerment error, the process, advanced metrics, the decision, Cleveland winning a title. I repeat, Cleveland winning a title. Well, why write a sequel when I could turn that book

into a living, breathing podcast, something that juggled interviews and pyramid podcasts and rewatchable game podcasts about famous games. What's my top hundred now? What's my pyramid? What's the new biggest what if of all time? Could the 86 Celtics have handled the 17 Warriors and all those threes?

What did I learn from spending so much time over the last years with people like Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, Kevin Durant, Jalen Rose, Isaiah Thomas, and so many others? Think of it as my basketball book coming to life in audio form, reinvented, reincarnated, retooled, recreated for 2019 and beyond. It's the Book of Basketball 2.0. It's launching on November 6th.

Presented by State Farm. See you there. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Oscars. Later in the show, I'll have a conversation with Antonio Banderas, star of the recently released Pain and Glory, another reunion with filmmaker Pedro Almodovar, and one of the leading contenders for Best Actor at this year's Oscars. He's never been

nominated, Amanda, and let me just say, a lovely gentleman, a great talker. I can't believe I wasn't here for this one, to be quite honest. Really, one of the elite voices you'll ever hear in your life. Smooth like caramel butter. Great conversation with him. But first, Amanda, we must talk about what I think we could comfortably call the most philosophically meaningful movie of the year. Let's go to the big pictures. Big picture. This is a problem in the big picture. Do you know what I mean? Amanda, of course, the movie I'm talking about is The Irishman. Martin Scorsese's three and a half hour epic detailing the life and times of a man named Frank Sheeran. Frank Sheeran is a man who is a low-level teamster,

operative, and or gangster. And this is Martin Scorsese's look back on 50 years of filmmaking about masculinity and mortality and Copacabana tracking shots and a number of other things. It's a really fascinating movie. It opened this weekend. What Amanda and I are going to do right now is talk about the movie,

try to talk about it in broad strokes. We don't want to spoil it for people because this movie has only opened in eight theaters across the country and it will be on Netflix on November 27th. I think it's safe to say that you and I would both encourage people to watch this movie when they can,

how they can, hopefully in a movie theater because it's a grand cinematic experience. But Amanda, why don't you just tell us a little bit about your reaction to the movie, which I think you were dreading from a length perspective. It is true. I am on record that I believe that concision and editing in the sense of taking out what you don't need is important when it comes to any endeavor, movies and life.

And I was dreading three and a half hours and I was very concerned about bathroom breaks and all of these things. I was completely blown away by this movie. I was really moved by it. And you and I went to the LA premiere of The Irishman, which was quite a spectacle. And context is important when you are talking about how you saw a movie. And we were certainly like swept away on everyone in that room was very excited to be there. And it had a momentous feel to it on purpose. But I think I will remember watching this movie for a very long time. And I will remember especially the effect that the last 90 minutes had on me and the fact that we won't talk about it, but the ending is quite something. Yeah, it is a unique formulation because it's something that

looks and sounds familiar to you, but is not at all what you might be expecting. I think it has shades of Goodfellas and Raging Bull and a lot of the gangster tropes. And it's obviously kind of immersed in that 1960s, 1970s America that we so closely identify with Scorsese's movies. But there's something a lot more sad and contemplative and a little bit strange about this movie. And not quite knowing how we're supposed to feel about its protagonist. It's not the same moral ambiguity that you would get from Goodfellas.

It's a little bit more of an emotional ambiguity about how you're supposed to feel about life. Yes. Because the movie is centered around this guy, Frank Sheeran, who is essentially telling the tale of his life and the way that his life has intersected with some of the most meaningful figures in both organized crime and organized labor in America. And it gets pretty heady, and it runs pretty deep. It runs all the way up to John F. Kennedy. There are no limitations on the places that this story will go. Maybe that's kind of notable as you think about the historicity of the movie versus what you should be taking away from it. But I think first and foremost, we can

just say it's Robert De Niro, it's Joe Pesci, and it's Al Pacino in Martin Scorsese movies. So just on its face, I would say even though all three of those guys have occupied various states of Snickers commercials and Adam Sandler comedies and Meet the Fockers 3, that it's the three of them kind of at their best in this phase of their career. Yes. And the movie is, it has a very like one last job or not even swan song. And I don't think that this will be like the last movie that any of these people has ever made. I think they have all been wise in not announcing their retirement. But because all actors and directors announcing their retirement is a lie. But it does have that feel of this is we're heading towards the end of the thing.

And that is true of each of the performances. That's true of the movie itself. It's a movie that's very much in conversation with Martin Scorsese's career in terms of the types of movies he's made and what those contributions may or may not be. It's in conversation with the style. You mentioned the Copa shot, and we're not going to spoil everything, but the movie does open with a shot that is clearly a direct reference to the Copa shot. But instead of being at the Copa, it is at a nursing home. Yes. I think that this is the sort of movie that you'll be rewarded for

watching and re-watching and reading the criticism and reading the insight that people are bringing to the movie. But I wanted to ask you if you think people who come in and have seen, you know, maybe they've seen Hugo and they've seen The Departed. And like, that's the extent of their Scorsese knowledge. Hugo's the only Scorsese youese knowledge. You guys are the only Scorsese you've seen. Maybe you've got kids.

You never know. I don't know. We did the Scorsese Top Fives episode last week and we got a huge response for people sharing their Top Fives. But no disrespect

to all the people who shared their Top Fives with us, but it's just kind of the same 11 movies, but maybe the same 8 movies over and over again. The guys made like 37 films.

I know. Could I just say, I thought it was very sweet that all three of you had the last waltz at number five i i was like a very nice moment i was like oh you guys really found each other yeah and that's really nice and it's also basically my relationship to the last waltz which is like every man in my life is like this is really important and i'm like i i don't care i'll never care it is very important shouldn't have been above Raging Bull is probably not something

I could actively defend, but I put it on the list nonetheless. I thought it was very charming. Also shout out to Adam Damon, who's the only person who had Age of Innocence on his list. Adam, I see you. Yeah, Adam is great.

I respect you. Adam is a sophisticated man. I think that that's an interesting one to mention because to answer your question, no, I don't think that you have to be the type of person who would respond to a big picture tweet with like your top five Scorsese list to enjoy this movie,

though. Shout out every single one of you who did. We appreciate your engagement. But no, I think that there is it is really epic in and it is kind of even though it is conversation in conversation with all of Scorsese's work, it's also pretty self-contained because it's three and a half hours. So it's painted in a very broad picture, and it has time to kind of meander down different historical lanes or characters. But there is so much there to work with that you don't really have to bring any outside information. to understand what it might be to be getting along in your life and perhaps have some regrets and some concerns and worry about the choices that you have made. It is a movie that is dealing with the later parts of life

and kind of taking stock, which is a theme in a lot of the movies this year. But I think that's a pretty universal theme. I think it acts as a kind of living metaphor for itself. See if you can follow what I'm trying to communicate here. So it's a very long film. And I would argue the worst part of the film is the first hour. I confess I don't really remember what happened in the first hour.

It's a really long movie. The first hour is pretty complicated and they're trying to condense. And this is where a lot of the de-aging begins, the much ballyhooed technological process that they brought to the movie that made it such an expensive movie in the first place. And so we see Robert De Niro's character and Joe Pesci's character in the 1950s or the 1960s at a significantly reduced age digitally. And it feels a lot more ramshackle. It's not really until Al Pacino shows up in the film, which is about an hour in, as Jimmy Hoffa, that it kind of takes flight.

And I feel like that unto itself is a kind of metaphor for mortality. From the ages of zero to 20, you're like, when am I going to be 25? This is unbearable that I can't get to drinking age. But then as soon as you hit 25, years start vanishing. I spent the weekend with close friends of mine from high school in Las Vegas. I acknowledge what a cliche that is. But as we sat around at three o'clock in the morning telling stories about things that had happened to us, we had to acknowledge that a lot of those stories happened

25 years ago. And the movie itself is very similar in that the final two and a half hours, which could seem deathless on paper, in fact, move pretty quickly. And you get very enveloped in the life of Frank Sheeran and Jimmy Hoffa and Russell Buffalino, who is the mob leader that who becomes a sort of patron to Frank Sheeran. And he's played by Joe Pesci. And you just get really entrenched in these guys' lives the same way you kind of slip inside your own life. And you're like, it is moving so quickly. Yes, and I don't totally realize what's happening and

I only am able to take stock of things and perhaps learn some lessons after it's too late. I completely agree and I think one thing that is very different than, say, Goodfellas about this movie is the energy.

And there is a, maybe it's not a joy in Goodfellas, but I think you're drawn to it because those people are like in the prime of their life. That's a prime of life movie, right? It's electrifying. Yeah. And this is a, even with the de-aging technology, which we should talk a little bit about, this is like a towards the end of life movie. Yes, it's even though you do have like Al Pacino like basically yelling who at some points he's not doing that but he's doing some other very funny things he's going for it yeah he's going for it and there's like a very funny scene between him and De Niro that like they're just like yelling at an office and they don't understand what's going on and I will be quoting that for the rest of my life so there are enjoyable moments and it it is funny and it is big, but there is an unease to all of it that is, I think,

reflective of age and stage of life. Yeah. It's a signal that this will end at some point and that maybe a lot of what we did was meaningless and a lot of what we've done has been a lie or we've been lying to ourselves. And it's incredibly bleak film you know we saw a little women a couple of weeks ago too and we talked about it afterwards and what a what a spirited and uplifting kind of story that is even though terrible things happen in it and there's tragedy ultimately you walk out of little women feeling like man i'm just so happy to be alive the irishman i think it's i'm very happy to be a film fan. I'm very happy to have Martin Scorsese in my life. But I walked out feeling like maybe I should just go move to Wisconsin and chill in a cabin.

Like it's not really going to matter whatever I decide to do here. And that is a fascinating thing for the public to consume, to put Scorsese's career in context. And, you know, it means a lot for the Oscars, I think, because the voters, a lot of voters are old and a lot of voters obviously idolize Scorsese, worship him, identify him as a huge, huge figure in the history of filmmaking. But also, I wonder if they will resent that or regret that or if they'll even understand it in that context. It's always hard to say. I kind of wonder how they'll watch it because, as I said, you and I saw it kind of with a lot of fanfare and we're also trapped in our seats for three and a half hours. I didn't get up, which I think a gold star for me. Congrats.

Neither did I. Thank you. But you know, that took a lot of strategic planning and I was in a great deal of pain for about two hours. But you know, not everyone will have that experience and it's not just because they won't be able to go to the premiere but it's not in that many theaters and when you're home if you need to go to the restroom you should do that i you know this is three and a half hours people who are watching this on netflix or people who are watching this via screeners which i think will be a large majority of people um probably will break it up over two nights. It's very hard to imagine people just being like, now I will give four hours to sit still and watch this movie. And as you mentioned, the first hour is shaggy, to the best of my recollection. But people are sitting home

watching for an hour and it's kind of like, okay, I don't really know where this is going. And that is when De Niro is kind of the most de-aged. And I actually, I don't think that that's too big of a deal. No, I think most of it's actually well done. It's distracting at first. It's distracting at first. And then it just kind of works. You and I did note immediately after the screening, though,

that it's never clear if he's supposed to be 50 or 70. Right. The uncanny valley there is really in what decade he's supposed to be in. And, and also an interesting thing that is kind of like a metaphor for this movie, even though I don't know is it was intentional. It's like, you can de-age a face,

but you can't de-age the way he moves. And I know they even hired stature coaches, I believe to teach, to remind De Niro and Pacino what it was like to, what your posture was like when you're 40. But I gotta be honest, they don't really get there. He's an older guy, hustling around like an older guy. And even when he, his face is the age, he does look older and is moving kind of with that slower, kind of reluctant pace, which,

which in a way like really fits into the tone of the movie. It does. But if you're watching, if you're on minute 45 and you're like, I don't really know what's happening and this looks kind of weird and I have another two and a half hours to go, maybe I'll pick this back up. And I think that probably changes how you experience it. Like we said, I wouldn't say it's slow. No, no, I don't think it's slow but it is um episodic sure which inevitably means people will stop when they feel like they have come to a conclusion of sorts right

and like meditative is not quite the word because there are a lot of funny jokes and plot lines and stuff but it just it's not good fellas it's not good fellas and there are a lot of people who have watched good fellas a thousand times in home, you and me by association among them. And I swear to God, it's like my husband has a special TV just for Goodfellas. I walk in, I'm like, oh, you got the other TV out. You know, we're on this scene now. It's been running in loop for eight years, which is great. It's a great movie. But there are a lot of people who will expect that. And it doesn't have the same mania. It's not a cocaine film. No. And also there is violence and there is traditional gangster tropes, but it is purposefully sort of clumsy and awkward. And it's meant to indicate that this isn't clean. You know, Goodfellas is kind of thrilling and it could be visceral. And there's lots, you know, they stab a guy in the trunk of their car at some point in Goodfellas. It's immensely violent.

But this is like there's a fumbling quality to a lot of the things that Frank Sheeran does in the movie. And I think that's purposeful, too. I think there's that's a signal that life isn't slick. You know, and you especially feel that when you're 78 years old but i just if you turn this on because you turn on netflix and you're like oh wow okay it says scorsese dinero pacino pesci click you know as a as a regular viewer or as an academy voter i think your expectations are going to be a little different than what you get and i you, you know, I kind of, to borrow another Scorsese theme, I kind of felt like I went to church to watch this movie. It was like, I had to sit there and concentrate and like think a lot about like big issues. And, you know, there was a moment when I would have liked to

stretch, but instead I was rewarded with like a kind of higher understanding of life and also cinema in the words of Martin Scorsese. But can you recreate that every single time? I don't know. It's funny. I think there will be certain sequences where the time will completely vanish for people. I think one of the best performances in the movie

is by a guy named Stephen Graham who plays Tony Pro, Anthony Provenzano, who is kind of a rival gangster figure slash teamster who challenges Al Pacino's Jimmy Hoffa character. And they have a couple of scenes that are just electrifying. They're Goodfellas electrifying. And is that the, it won't spoil it to say that's the shorts guy? Yes, that's the shorts guy. So there's a clip online actually right now that you can watch. It's about a minute and a half about a meeting between these two very famous figures in American history. And

in those sequences, it feels like you're watching Goodfellas. There's a kind of like fuck you energy to a lot of the conversations they're having. It's very tense. You can see it's about to get violent at some point. And that is when you're getting the Scorsese of the movie, that Scorsese of the movie.

But you're completely right that a lot of the time, there are long, elegant, slow shots of Frank Sheeran looking into the middle distance, contemplating his life that are much closer to silence or the last temptation of Christ. And that's the other thing is this is all kind of in keeping with all of Scorsese's movies. It is kind of the, it is the total package and for better and worse. And it is that long for a reason. I also am fascinated. I feel like most people will probably watch it over two nights. I don't think people really have four hours at home to devote to a movie. I mean, you and I barely did. I literally had an allergic reaction after the week of screenings that we went through, which is not, I mean, that's, you know, first

world problems for sure. But it is, you got to carve it out, you know, and I think I haven't seen it a second time, but I would guess that it is most effective when you see it in that in full as opposed to breaking it down as far as the Oscars go well I think that I mean that is a great segue into it because I walked on that I'm just like wow this is this is tremendous how can anyone resist it but I think the answer is is if people are watching it differently the pause button that's how they resist it. Yeah. And we know that the Academy is resistant to Netflix, as evidenced by last year. And people just voting for Green Book because they didn't want to reward Netflix. It wasn't Roma.

It was Netflix. So they didn't want to reward. And we know that people, we know that Academy screeners, not all members of the Academy are as diligent about watching absolutely everything. The upside here is while Cuaron is considered a master, that was a foreign language film, and he is not Martin Scorsese. Even though he is a hugely celebrated person, he is not on the level of Martin Scorsese. So there's an inherent respect that a lot of voters will bring to the movie. Plus, I think that the advanced press, that this is as good as Robert De Niro and as good as Al Pacino have been in years,

I think will draw everybody into the mix. The other thing is... Yeah. What? I said we have to talk about Pesci. Yes. Let's save Joe Pesci for the big race because I feel like he's an interesting figure,

especially in light of a conversation we had last week. But before we get into any of that stuff, if there are three Netflix movies nominated, which is highly plausible given the conversations that we've had between Marriage Story and The Two Popes in this movie, I think that that Netflix resentment will fade and there will be an acceptance. I don't know. Did you get a chance to read The Hollywood Reporter's roundtable conversation with all the studio heads? I did and it was fantastic. Just a great document of journalism. Shout out to Matt Bellany at THR for gathering those people.

And take away a couple of things from that piece. Yeah. Let me just share a couple of insights with you. One, at the end of the piece, it becomes evident that all these people

have been working together at the same seven jobs for 25 years. And in case you're wondering why the movie business is as it is, it evident that all these people have been working together at the same seven jobs for 25 years. And in case you're wondering why the movie business is as it is, it's because all these people know each other. They're all extraordinarily successful and wealthy. And they are frustrated, as you are, by the changing mode of consumption in this country. And, you know, they're also very entrenched, the same way Martin Scorsese is entrenched in the Oscar race. These people are entrenched in their jobs. That being said, it was a notable conversation because in addition to Sony and Disney and Warner Brothers

and Paramount, these folks were joined by Amazon and Netflix, the chiefs from Amazon and Netflix. And they're sort of in a different business, but they're meant to be aligned together. And Scott Stuber is talking to Jim Ginopolis about what they have in common and what they don't have in common. And it's not even like apples to oranges. It's like apples to pork chops to me, the way that a lot of this stuff works and what they're being held against. I don't know. You've got a wry smile on your face. Well, I just, you know, I almost like sent this to you, but the exchange between Scott Stuber and Tim Rothman about, they do talk about superhero films. And Scott Stuber is like, what people don't give comic books credit for is that for a giant

group of us, they are literature. They are to kill a mockingbird. And Tim Rothman is just like, they are not to kill a mockingbird. I am sorry. I really enjoyed that. Yeah. Tom Rothman is a former high school English teacher. And so he, and he cites that in this conversation. And even though he is the head of the studio that puts out the Spider-Man movies and Venom, he still is holding on to a certain kind of a value that we talk about a lot on this show. But it's really interesting

because they are all both trying to be congenial to each other because they are all sitting around a table and trying to compliment each other. And there are like a lot of jokes about how many movies Netflix releases and how they just can't keep up with the business of Netflix. And there is like a lot of jokes about how many movies Netflix releases and how they just can't keep up with the business of Netflix. And there is both the competition and the like the the geniality or the professional gloss on it.

But it really is all of the studio people in one corner and Netflix and another. And then Amazon gets thrown a few things because they've had a couple of years. Yeah, there's a lot of what about you, Jen Salke? Like kind of secondary questions in the mix. It's an interesting document. It's an all-time read between the lines

piece of journalism that I greatly enjoyed. But it does underscore the fact that they're getting closer to being the same, but they're not the same. Yeah.

And they're not going to be the same for a while, which I think leads us into what truthfully, even though the film is a massive achievement, has become the biggest talking point of the movie in the last couple of days. Which is, what sort of business is this movie going to do? Because once upon a time, as recently as 2006, Martin Scorsese was making big gangster movies with big themes about mortality and truth and lies.

And a lot of people were going to see it. And they were big hits. And he won an Oscar. That movie is called The Departed. 13 years later, this movie is, there was only one studio that would fund it, which is Netflix. It's $160 million budget.

And it is only opening in eight theaters around the country, at least right now. It'll expand a little bit before it eventually goes to the service, as we mentioned. And there, you know, we've been talking about this for a long time. As you pointed out a couple of weeks ago, this was the Super Bowl slingshot commercial. It was

like the Irishman coming to theaters soon from Netflix. I think it was the Oscars. Oh, it was the Oscars. Even better. It was literally, we were sitting there, because I remember it, and they bought out, I think it was like hour two of the Oscars in theaters and on Netflix. And so here we are and we find that it is in theaters, a few theaters. It's in especially, I think, notable that they're putting it in the Belasco Theater, which is on Broadway, and Grauman's Egyptian Theater in Hollywood. These massive movie palace type places that is hearkening back to an old time. Right.

But the AMCs and the Regal Cinemas and all of those companies are saying no. Yeah. And they're saying no for a couple of complicated reasons. And a little bit of this is pretty wonky, but I'll try to give you a little bit of context. Nicole Sperling had a very, I would say, accomplished piece of reporting in the New York Times this weekend about this issue. So the major exhibitors typically insist on a 72 day period of exclusivity for the films that play on their screens. During the months-long talks with Netflix over The Irishman, representatives of two major chains agreed independently to lower that number to around 60 days,

according to two people familiar with the negotiations who were not authorized to discuss them publicly. This is all Sperling's reporting and writing. Netflix signaled that it would not go above 45, and that's where the negotiations ended. So what we're talking about here is just windowing, which is a phrase that people have been using for the last few years. It has seemed important how long before this movie leaves theaters and goes to the service. And I guess that's ultimately the crux of the issue here, but there has been, some of this feels very emotional and some of this feels very strategic. Now, John Fithian, who is the president of the National Association of Theater Owners,

which is an organization that represents all these big theater chains, and is essentially a lobbyist. He's just a lobbyist. He lives in Washington, D.C., works in Washington, D.C., and he represents this status quo of Hollywood said in the piece, it's a disgrace that Netflix would not bend to the will of the theater owners. And he had quite a lot of strongly worded phrases about what a failure this is and what a mistake Netflix is making by doing this. You have some media literacy lessons about this issue. I do. And you already did it. But in this issue and in all other issues, it is important always to consider the source and to know who is speaking to whom and why and specifically who is paying them. This is a lobbyist for the theater organizations.

Of course he's going to say this. It is his job to stand out there and advocate as vociferously as possible for, frankly, what is, and it brings me no pleasure to say this, a dying business. Because the fact of the matter is, and, you know, it is a shame and it's not great when people lose their jobs. But otherwise, theaters, and I also like going to the movie theaters, but theaters are just kind of antiquated. movies as much anymore because they have a better way to watch it. And so the business is dying. And it's in his interest and in their interest to just like yell as loudly as possible. And windowing, which is sort of the sticking ground, is just something that is only beneficial to theaters. It's not great for Netflix because they want people to see their movies. Like, why would they do that? It's not really great for consumers. I got an email this weekend from my father, who apparently he was not a Netflix customer, even though we've definitely talked about The Crown,

but he was like, I signed up to watch El Camino and now I'm really mad because I can't watch The Irishman on Netflix until November 27th. And I signed up too early. But, you know, so if you're a regular customer who wants to be able to see these movies, you want to be able to see them as soon as possible. And you don't really care about the release window and you want to be able to either see it. If you want to see it in theaters, you want to be able to see it in theaters. So I, you know, this is his job. I'm sure it is bad for the theaters. I think it's bad out there for the theaters right now. I have a little bit of empathy for

Fithian's point of view. I think it's interesting what an aggressive approach he took here. Here's an extended comment that he shared with The Times that I think is very notable as a talking point,

especially in relation to that THR roundtable we were discussing. So Fithian also said, Netflix is leaving significant money on the table. Think about The Departed in 2006. That Scorsese movie made $300 million globally. It garnered Scorsese

the Best Director Oscar. It won Best Picture. It played for a long time in theaters and made a ton of money. Why wouldn't Netflix want to monetize that before it went to Netflix? It can still be exclusive on Netflix. It can still draw subscribers. It would still be the only place you can see it at home. Now, one, in 2006, there was no Netflix. So this is what we call a false parallel. These things are not the same. Two, inside that roundtable, Jim Giannopoulos, who we know is a friend of Martin Scorsese because he was featured in Rolling Thunder Review, the Bob Dylan documentary, literally says, even though he was not at Paramount at the time when they decided to pass on the Irishman, that he felt that the budget and the approach was too ambitious and too much of a risk. And most of the theater, or excuse me, most of the executives in that piece

agreed that The Irishman at $160 million before marketing is a huge risk for a studio to take in this day and age because things have changed in the way that you were just describing. And so Netflix is obviously in a uniquely different position in terms of the risks that they can take and the credit, the kind of IP that they need to build long-term. And this moves towards that. So Fithian obviously wants people to go to AMC theaters. He wants people to spend their money there. That's good for him.

That's good for the major studios. But the Irishman more than likely does not exist if not for Netflix. So who has the leverage here? That's really ultimately the question. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing is that the theaters don't have any leverage whatsoever. And I think I enjoyed seeing The Irishman in the theater. And I think there are a lot of people who would like to be able to. But in that piece, I believe they also talk about kind of the DVD market and the

home sale market, which kind of undergirded that risk for a long time. Because opening movies in theaters has always been a risk. And for every Departed, which made $300 million, there are a lot of just failed, ambitious movies. Yeah, Paramount put out Silence and they took a bath on it. Exactly. So that's why they backed off. And for a while they had a financial market that would allow them, and they also didn't have Netflix and other places put it. And it's just kind of the financing of movies has changed

and the theaters have been left out in the cold on that. And that's tough for them. And I like going to the theaters, but they are not in a position to be screaming at Netflix. Because Netflix doesn't need them. Well, as a point of comparison, let's look at a few movies that were released this weekend. Because I feel like this is useful to the conversation around The Irishman.

So this was actually a pretty noisy weekend of releases. Not a lot of these movies did terribly well. The movie I've got listed at the top here, actually, for context, last year, this weekend was the weekend that Bohemian Rhapsody opened. It opened at $51 million, which then led to a lot of anguished podcasts between you and I about that movie. This weekend was not good.

It was a little bit different. We just spent all this time talking about Netflix. The King was released in theaters three weeks ago, but it hit Netflix this weekend. The King is a movie directed by weeks ago, but it hit Netflix this weekend. Right. The King is a movie directed by David Michaud starring Timothee Chalamet and Robert Pattinson. Sounds great. It's a historical epic, sort of retelling the tale of Henry V. Yep.

Weird movie. Interesting choice. Fascinating that this movie is coming out underneath Marriage Story and The Irishman and all of these films that we have clearly identified as great films. Yeah. Because it's wearing great film armor. Literally. But it doesn't have a sword. Well, it is a little bit what we were just talking about.

You know, sometimes you finance, you know, you take a big swing on a movie and you buy all the horses and the armor as they did in this. Those are real horses, right? Real horses. Yeah. They built real catapults. There are crazy, beautiful fireball throwing catapults in this movie. And you spend all this money on this stuff and it just doesn't pan out. And this movie just like didn't really pan out.

And even on paper, it makes sense in retelling the Henry V. You know, I have some questions about remaking Henry V and not including the St. Crispin's Day speech. And in fact, like including a meta joke of Timothee Chalamet standing in front of all the horses and being like, do you want me to make a speech? And it's actually kind of like, yes, like the history of Western civilization or literature is based on you making a speech right now. But that's fine. You know, it's like sometimes you try it and it works and sometimes it doesn't yeah

there's a few things that are interesting about the movie I think Joel Edgerton is a little bit miscast he helped conceive the movie with Michaud and he wanted to play

Falstaff and he's an okay Falstaff I'm not really sure I mentioned I think a few months ago on this show just listen

go watch Chimes at Midnight the Orson Welles sort of reinvention of Falstaff that's much more about Henry IV but that's a better film a more interesting film a more interesting Falstaff. That's much more about Henry IV, but that's a better film, a more interesting film,

a more interesting Falstaff. It's tangling with the mythology of Shakespeare's historical royal tales in a more compelling way, I think. It does feature an amazing Robert Pattinson

thing as a deaf fan. It's not a performance. I don't know what it is. When he showed up on screen, I was watching the movie with my wife last night, and I had a huge grin on my face and she literally turned to me

and said, this is so bad. Yeah. This is so bad. And that's, that's kind of the moves that Pattinson has been making the last five years.

Sometimes you look at him and you're like, fearless, hilarious, incredible, how he's just going for it. And other people, I think most people

who are not obsessed with the culture of Robert Pattinson taking risks as an actor are just like, this guy is annoying and weird. So, you know, six of one, half dozen of the other, ultimately, he's making a choice in a movie. He's doing what he wants. He's doing what he wants. He's really just out here. He's the model of the A24 film, bro. Just like live in life and doing what he

wants. It's inspiring. God bless. I mean, he's after my heart. I thought he was just hilarious in this movie. A movie that is taking itself so seriously. And he has arrived in the middle of it to just be like, nah, I'm good. And, you know, to the point that you were making about the studios taking risks last year, we learned that for every Roma, you get an outlaw king. And this year we're learning that for every Irishman, you get a, the king. Let's talk a little bit about the outlaw king and the king are both just medieval movies. And I think the Game of Thrones effect, we got to step back. Like, I know that those have always been very successful and Braveheart and people like Catapult and people like people on horses.

People do like Catapult. Spearing each other or whatever the shit. They sure do. I understand. But it's like we're spending a lot of money and prestige energy on kind of just remaking the same thing with diminishing returns. And so maybe like we hit a pause on the medieval stuff for a while. Yeah. I mean, the other thing that those two movies don't have that Game of Thrones has is fucking dragons.

And so it'll be interesting to see, you know, a lot of series are coming out soon. His Dark Materials premieres tonight on HBO. Is that medieval? It's fantasy. And the conflation of fantasy and the historical epic is an interesting thing that's really what game of thrones ultimately did well if you look at battle of the bastards that was that was brave heart meets lord of the rings yeah that's what you want that is literally what you want well i don't know if it's what i want but sure it's what some of us want yeah uh the king just just couldn't

pull it off but the thing is is that we're going to talk about a couple of other movies that were released this weekend that were roundly criticized. The King just came and went. Nobody cares. There's no piece on Box Office Mojo or in Deadline today that's like, the King, what a failure.

Right. Because they're not publicly reporting their numbers. No one knows how many people watched it. I'm sure in three weeks, we'll find out from Netflix that like 63 million people watched The King

or started The King and there'll be no way to verify that. And we're still in this version of the hype cycle on Netflix where they probably spent, I don't know, it looks like a $70 million movie, maybe more. It looks like a huge movie. I'm not going to have one more conversation about it after this conversation you and I are concluding right now. Right. But there will be a lot of Timothee Chalamet and Robert Pattinson stans who will watch it, and I'm sure they're a catapult enthusiast. And also, as we said, they have the business model to support it. They've recreated it. So it's, you know, some movies work and some movies don't. And they're in a place where

they can take those risks. And basically, no one else is. What would the Timothy Chalamet catapult meme be? Would it be Timmy catapult me into the castle of your heart? Yeah, that's great. You should get on Twitter with that. Good job. I'm going to workshop that one. There was another movie that came out in theaters that should have, could have, might have, would have been a big movie. It's called Terminator Dark Fate. I didn't even plan an episode around this movie, even though it's a Terminator movie that features Linda Hamilton and Arnold Schwarzenegger in 2019. I didn't see it because you waved me off. I mean Linda Hamilton and Arnold Schwarzenegger in 2019.

I didn't see it because you waved me off. I mean, you and many other people did not see it. Yeah. And this is a similarly huge movie. This movie costs more than The Irishman. We spent all this time talking about the $160 million budget of The Irishman. This movie costs $185 million reported. It made $29 million in America this weekend

and it did not do well internationally either. And that is a testimony to a lot of this theater owner convulsion that we're talking about. These movies are not working, and only Disney is really good at scraping the IP barrel in this way. It's been 25 years since T2 Judgment Day. They're trying to get back to the spirit of that movie, which is a great movie. They brought James Cameron on to be a producer of this movie. Tim Miller, who directed Deadpool, directed it. It's fine. It's like, it's not bad. Yeah. It's not bad. It's just not, it's not the kind of movie

you would walk out of and be like, I got to tell my friend to go see that. And unfortunately, I think your big, noisy action epic has to be that good to make sense in a movie theater now. It is also, I do feel the Terminator movies are so, not to be too self-referential, but like rewatchables core, that there's something about, I don't need to go to a theater. I'll just catch that.

I've been watching these movies on TV for 25 years now. Yeah, you definitely would be better spending your time just rewatching T2 than watching this movie. Not that it's bad. It's just not nearly as good. Or just even waiting for it to come out on one of the services and be like, oh, okay, sure. Why not? Like I have an hour. It has a similar feeling and it's the same studio. So it's a bit challenging, but a similar feeling to Gemini Man, which is you've got a big time movie star or a couple of movie stars. You've got a sort of a famous idea,

the sort of like doubling cloning idea. That's also very resonant in the Terminator universe. But, and it has a couple of great action set pieces that are cool, that are fun. And this movie also has Mackenzie Davis, who is amazing. She is,

she is elite, but it's just not enough. It's not enough. Like I wouldn't tell, I wouldn't tell my brother to go see this. I would just say, just wait, like you just said. And that's not enough like I wouldn't tell I wouldn't tell my brother to go see this I would just say just wait like you just said and That's a challenging spot for studios because then that means that the only studio that's going to be able to make this stuff is disney

Especially since they bought fox, you know, I guess warner brothers if they have a a clever enough idea like joker But puts everybody in a tough position speaking of warner brothers the other movie that opened this weekend. It's motherless brooklyn This is a big expensive historical film movie stars much like these other films we've been talking about. I don't think anybody cared. No. This movie made $3.6 million. That's really bad. Yeah. This is a big failure for Edward Norton. This movie premiered at all the major film festivals. Edward Norton appeared on every podcast I've ever heard of, including mine. And no one saw it. No. You and I saw it. Yeah. So I have had a lot of conversations since seeing Motherless Brooklyn because I have not read the book Motherless Brooklyn. I'm not really sure.

I just didn't catch the Latham wave. But many people did. Many people were really, and Jonathan Latham is a very celebrated author. And so I was asking a lot of people what happened in the original Motherless Brooklyn, because the movie diverges quite dramatically from it. I believe the book is set in the 90s or the 2000s. It's contemporary. I believe the book is set in the 90s or the 2000s. Contemporary. Contemporary, present day. And Edward Norton's adaptation is set in the 50s. Correct.

And that's just the beginning of the changes. He kind of essentially makes it... I can spoil it, right? I think so. I mean, if you care, you know. I don't think it's a spoiler. He's been talking about it. Right.

He essentially makes a plot about Robert Moses, and it's kind of like the power broker, but being investigated by a 50s version of the detective character that Jonathan Latham created in Motherless Brooklyn, which is like a lot of tic-tac-toe. But when talking to people and just trying to get to the bottom of what happened in the original Motherless Brooklyn, what was the original mystery or whatever, no one could remember. Even people who were like, I love this book. And it just kind of seems like there wasn't really the fan base there for this thing that anyone thought there was. Even people who were like, I really like this movie, no one was, you know, it didn't stick with anyone

and sort of apply it. I really want to see this on the big screen type of way yeah i think essentially what happened is norton read the book in the 90s fell in love with it specifically because he fell in love with the lionel s-rog character who is a sort of amateur gumshoe who has tourette syndrome syndrome. And that idea, he loved. And everything around that, and also the idea that his mentor and close friend is killed at the beginning of the book in the film he's played by Bruce Willis.

And everything kind of spiders out from there. And so he held on to that stuff and he did everything else that he wanted to do. It's evident that he had this big interest in the way that power works. He had this big interest in 1950s New York and the way that that sort of set the stage for the management of power in this country. There are a lot of allusions to things that are going on right now from Me Too to Donald Trump to all these other things.

And he's been trying to get this movie made for years and years and years. Toby Emmerich in that THR roundtable we're talking about talked about what an accomplishment he felt because he started talking about this movie 22 years ago with Edward Norton. And he's always wanted to make it. And it's a passion project for a lot of people involved it's not a central mystery movie I think he would probably admit to that too yeah he's talked a lot about Chinatown and the influence of Chinatown and you know Chinatown isn't really about solving the mystery it's about identifying that corruption rules and we're a deeply cynical society and the people who act with the least amount of good faith are the people who typically succeed the most.

I think thematically, it's interesting. I think the second half of the film, once it essentially abandons the book, is really good. And I actually would have loved to have seen him just make his movie. Yes. Instead of try to make Motherless Brooklyn. Yeah.

Because he's got something at his fingertips that is unique and kind of grand, but it's kind of bogged down in the first half by trying to be faithful to this story that ultimately I don't think you really need. Right. And it's sort of confusing. And then it does also seem like the marketing and the positioning of the movie followed that. You liked the book, you'll like the movie. And I think that was ultimately super counterproductive. A counterpoint to that is Harriet

which no one's talking about and is not leading the conversation on this podcast but this is a big movie this movie made

12 million dollars this weekend it made half as much money as Terminator Dark Fate on half as many screens and it stars Cynthia Erivo

who's not famous, even though she's a great actress. And it's a pretty down-the-middle biopic. Yes. Not a great film, but it's like a perfect example of targeting the audience you want and finding that audience.

Yes. It's interesting, there was a Focus Features put this movie out and they noted that this is the first time in 15 years that a specialty studio has had

back-to-back films gross more than $10 million in opening weekend, Downton Abbey and Harriet. That's pretty interesting. I think a lot of studios probably need to consider what their quote-unquote brand is a little bit more effectively. We talk about A24 on the show all the time and Neon to a lesser extent. Those are two places that have really figured out how to sell their movies to the people who want to see their movies. You know, the Lighthouse and Parasite are never going to make the amount of money that motherless Brooklyn needs to make to make its budget back. But a lot of people are seeing those movies and those movies are strange. You know, Parasite, aside from the fact that it's South Korean, is this really complicated genre twisty story that is immensely violent at times. And the

Lighthouse is fucking batshit bad shit yes and they both these movies have already made seven million dollars yeah well i think that's the that is the future it's real as we have seen and we've been talking about our podcast it's increasingly difficult and risky to try to make something for everybody and unless you're disney and you kind of have this super valuable ip that's kind of grandfathered and you can't really launch anything that is suddenly going to appeal to 50 million people or however many you need to appeal to. That's just not how culture works anymore. It's so specific, which as a consumer is great because then you can have Parasite and you

can have the Lighthouse, even though The Lighthouse I recognize as an artistic achievement and was also like, this is emphatically like capital not for me. And that's okay because it's for people and those people know who they are and are invested in it existing and going to support it. And so it is, I think that like niche, passionate, not just film going, but any culture or really anything is sort of the future of consumerism. Yeah, I agree. Focus is in a unique position. They're a subsidiary of Universal, so they can take chances within the shape of their business. But whether they survive or not will not dictate Comcast's you know public trading price

on the stock market but nevertheless 12 million dollars is really good business for that movie one thing that I neglected to do when we were talking

about our Oscar predictions last week is I failed to mention two people one of them is Cynthia Erivo for Best Actress which if this movie

continues to do well I think you'll hear more about that the other person that we didn't mention is Lupita Nyong'o pretty much immediately after our show published last week, the Us campaign began.

Yeah. And it'll be interesting to see if they can push Lupita into the Best Actress race as well. Yeah, I had Lupita on an honorable mention and I switched out Awkwafina at the last moment because, again, I just think when movies get momentum, then they do kind of show up in a lot of different categories so I think if A24

is pushing the farewell in Best Picture and they're pitching Lulu Wang for screenplay and all of those things it kind of it fills out

and Us is not really in the conversation except for Lupita Nyong'o I would say that's right that's true so it's a good point

but I wouldn't be shocked I would not be shocked either and I totally think it's possible so oversight on our part shout out to cynthia rivo and lupita amanda we've talked about a lot of things so far let's go to stock up stock down real quick if it goes bust you can make 10 to 1 even 20 to 1 return and it's already slowly going going bust. Stock up. This is a slightly counterintuitive take on my part here. Stock up Benioff and Weiss. David Benioff and D.B. Weiss,

they decided to pull out slash were fired slash will never know the truth out of the future Star Wars trilogy that they had promised. Sure, because they have, what, 300 million from Netflix? They certainly do. And they can do whatever they want. And as we've discussed, there are no consequences in Netflix. That's exactly right. I don't know about no consequences, but there's a lot more freedom. And of course, the Star Wars brand is incredibly fraught.

I thought Chris and Andy had a great conversation about this on The Watch last week about the power of IP, but also the burden of IP. And then in a lot of ways, they just came out of this Game of Thrones, I don't know, hype cycle, pain machine. So interesting. I feel like we very quickly forgot that five seasons of Game of Thrones were amazing before, and now we're like,

these guys suck! They definitely do not suck. If you saw the Red Wedding episode, you have to acknowledge that to some extent, they know what they're doing. They had great source material. I really, it's so interesting to see how their attitude, the attitude in the world towards them has changed pretty radically.

Well, I think they've become this scapegoat, rightfully to an extent, for, you know, the ending of the end. Yeah, they botched it. It wasn't a good final season. Well, no, but it's just also, it was fine. It was fine. Endings are hard. Quite frankly, will George R.R. Martin ever be able to finish that? And is the fact that he has to finish it and doesn't know how, what's keeping him? I think possibly, like, people have investigated that. It's a great point. And it is like a compliment to Benioff and Weiss that they were like, we're going to finish it. Yeah. Now they finished it in a way that didn't satisfy people,

but they did finish it. Right. I mean, there is just also like so many people literally base their lives around like being a fan of that movie and being a part of that conversation. And then when it's over, that's hard people are people are basically going through a mourning period and then they had two guys who were like well we did our best um so i don't think anyone in that position was ever going to live up to expectations no they weren't but i think it's probably wise on their part to exit the star wars machine because if anybody is angrier than Game of Thrones fans about the source material, it's Star Wars fans.

And I think after watching what happened to Rian Johnson in the last cycle, after making what I thought was like a legitimately incredible film. I loved it. I don't know what they could expect

to receive on that side as well. So presumably they'll pursue an original story at a grand scale at Netflix in some form. I look forward to it. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be good, but I'm kind of interested to see what they do, especially in the aftermath of Confederate and all that bullshit. And their next choice will be

meaningful and maybe it'll be in movie form. Maybe it'll be in series form. We don't really know. I've got something here listed as stock neutral. So Apple TV+, which is not traditionally in the realm of what we would discuss, but I think we're going to talk about Apple TV+, and Disney+, over the next couple of weeks. You've got a huge smile on your face because you love,

perhaps against your better judgment, The Morning Show. It's not against my better judgment. I'm very clear-eyed about what The Morning Show is and is not. Okay? Check out Ring or Dish if you want to hear Amanda talk all about Jennifer Aniston and

her power as a celebrity and how she finds herself on the flagship show of Apple TV+. Yeah. Was this a good launch? No, I think it was a terrible launch. Okay. I think that it was a really bad launch. And I think almost all of it is Apple's fault. But some of it is not.

Some of it is also the discourse's fault and how criticism is broken. And that's fine. And just kind of the expectations of like what people actually want from any given medium, but especially TV. This is a separate, separate issue. I think that in terms of their rollout and how they communicated what the show would be, no one knows how to watch Apple TV. I honestly still don't know how to watch Apple TV because I was lucky enough to get screeners. So that ain't good.

Just on a basic, you want money for a service and no one understands how to give you money for a service. And that hasn't been clear. That's just a failure of messaging. It is. They're going to have a long runway. They're also largely a hardware company and they still sell an enormous amount of products. So they're going to have an opportunity to, I don't know, keep trying at this. I think none of their shows really stuck the landing.

The thing that you want people saying at the launch of your original content is you got to see this. When House of Cards premiered, people said, you got to see this. It's so good. And it was good, I thought. They're saying you got to see this now about the morning show, but maybe not for the reasons you want. They are. I am. I literally spent the entire weekend just talking to friends of mine, just being like, ignore the reviews. You do have to see this.

You have to see this because in a lot of ways, it's a train wreck. And it's a testament to what happens when people who don't have a finely oiled machine get $15 million an episode. And to just- It looks expensive. To figure it out in real time. And they are figuring some stuff out or not figuring it out. And it's fascinating. You know, it has a lot of the sign points of, it looks expensive. It has movie stars.

There is like bad banter. It's a subject matter I'm interested in. You can kind of see where it's all going to go. And if you like watching kind of trashy, but expensive TV, then you actually do got to see it. It's fascinating. Is that good ultimately in terms of I will give however much money a month to Apple TV because they're going to give me programming that I want in this credit market. I don't know. So much like Netflix, I am interested in these companies and their streaming services largely as a movie fan. I watch some shows.

I'm trying to keep up. At this point, it's virtually impossible to do so. There was one movie that launched quietly on Apple TV this weekend. It's called The Elephant Queen. It's a documentary that I think may compete in Best Documentary this year. It's directed by Mark Diebel and Victoria Stone. And it's a classical nature documentary. It's very feel-good.

It's narrated by Chiwetel Ejiofor. It's well-made. I find it to be strange to be the only movie that they launched with. They acquired it out of festivals earlier this year or last year and I could see families enjoying it and it kind of fits the mold of what we heard early on about Tim Cook's strategy to kind of be more family

oriented around a lot of the programming so there wouldn't be this kind of provocative sex position Game of Thrones style stuff on the network. They may come to regret that approach to things but The Elephant Queen is the first of what I think will be a number of films. Apple made a pact with A24 last year

to make original films. Sofia Coppola's next film will be appearing on Apple TV at some point. Don't know when that is. And then on December 6th, a movie called The Banker opens, which we've talked about a couple of times on this show.

That's going to go into theaters and then hit Apple TV in January. Stars Anthony Mackie and Samuel L. Jackson. Theoretically, it's going to challenge for Oscars. I haven't seen it. I'm curious to see it. A trailer hit early Monday morning for the film. Whether Apple takes the same strategy that Netflix takes

and says what we're going to do is put original films on here and they're going to be awards-y is kind of fascinating to me. Disney Plusney plus i think is not doing that no they're doing lady and the tramp original movie and they're they're they're doing the mandalorian and they're doing falcon and winter soldier and i don't prestige on a streaming service is something that we haven't quite solved yet. We haven't quite figured out what that looks like. I guess Roma is probably the closest we came, but still, as you mentioned earlier,

there's so much resentment and frustration around that. And that's the thing. Apple in particular is such a clean series of products. It's such a shiny execution in the world. And so it fits. The prestige approach would make sense, but it's just a... The Morning Show is such a perfect example of how it takes a lot of time to figure out how to do

this well. And I'm curious to see when they start putting movies out at a more aggressive pace, if it'll feel the same way. I have no idea, but you should watch The Morning Show. There we go. I'm not being paid to say this. Let's go to the big race quickly. Well, mama, look at me now. I'm a star. We mentioned Joe Pesci in The Irishman. I think we should talk about best supporting actor this week. Okay. So I've got 10 candidates here. We've seen most of these movies now. Have we seen all these movies? I have not seen Just Mercy. Okay. I've seen Just Mercy and I haven't seen Bombshell and you've seen Bombshell. Yes. So I'll run down the names and just give me your sense of where this race is at right now.

Okay. Timothee Chalamet, Little Women. I've been thinking so much about this since we saw it. That's really all I have to say. Jamie Foxx, Just Mercy. You've seen this, I haven't. I've seen it. It's a very, very good performance in an uneven movie.

Tom Hanks, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. This seems like a lock. Incredible stuff. Anthony Hopkins, The Two Popes. Oh, I haven't seen The Two Popes, but... John Lithgow, Bombshell.

Al Pacino in The Irishman. Joe Pesci in The Irishman. Brad Pitt in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Let's not forget about Brad Pitt, who was the frontrunner for several months. Trust me, I didn't.

Sterling K. Brown in Waves, which I would not be surprised if this happened. I really think this could happen. Yeah. And Chris Cooper in A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. Now, it's highly unlikely that A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood is going to have two nominees. That being said, great year for Chris Cooper, who is also wonderful in Little Women.

Just want to give him a shout out. Oh, he is so wonderful in Little Women. Yes. Chris Cooper is a great actor. He's never bad in anything. He always elevates every movie he's in. He's really good in A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, too. What about Chris Cooper in Little Women?

Could be. It's really good in A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, too. What about Chris Cooper in Little Women? Could be. It's a quiet part. I think the likelihood of two Little Women nominees or two Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood nominees is pretty low. Tough beat for Chris Cooper to be the guy outside looking in on both of those movies. He's got to go up against Timmy and Tom. Yeah. That's not what you want. No.

I do think there's a very, very strong chance that there are two nominees from The Irishman. But last week, you didn't pick that. And I did. My heart is changing. I really do think it is primarily because Joe Pesci is unbelievable. So good in this movie. Unbelievable. And not what you expect,

which people like it. It does have that kind of, I mean, obviously he has been doing his own thing for a while. And so it's not a comeback, but it's a return, a glorious return. But it's a new side of somebody and really gives the movie a lot of its power. And there are a couple of scenes that will just haunt you.

And I believe someone was recirculating Joe Pesci's five word acceptance speech on Twitter recently. And Hugh Grant retweeted it and was like, I also would like to see Joe Pesci at five-word acceptance speech on Twitter recently. And Hugh Grant retweeted it and was like, I also would like to see Joe Pesci at the Oscars again so he can give a five-word acceptance speech. He's a man of few words. And he's a man of few words in The Irishman. And he's not doing hot-headed Tommy. He's not doing that cliched, crazy-eyed gangster part

that he became very famous for. He's also not doing My Cousin Vinny. I think we forget that Joe Pesci, most of his movies were comedies, and he was a movie star. First of all, My Cousin Vinny is incredible. So let's just put that down right here. But it's a completely different kind of performance for him. It is, to the spirit of how you were describing the movie, meditative, contemplative, and quiet. He's not yelling. He's not threatening anybody. He is not threatening anybody. He is doing something different.

And that's part of what is fun. Al Pacino has put on the Jimmy Hoffa mask. And he's saying, this is my union. He says, this is my union. Like 800 times. 300 times in the movie. And it's very funny. But he's like,

he's doing Al Pacino cosplay in a way. Pesci is doing something new. Yes. Or at least something that I haven't seen from him before. And it's pretty exciting. I agree. I thought he was just absolutely incredible. It'll be interesting to see.

This is so, so, so, so star-packed. And old and new and middle. Who's older and more established than Al Pacino? Who's younger and more exciting than Timothee Chalamet? Who's more deserving and ready to win than Brad Pitt? Plus Tom Hanks. Plus Jamie Foxx has already won. This is a hugely, hugely competitive category.

Maybe the most competitive. And Sterling K. Brown to me is doing one of the best performances in the whole category. And he might be in ninth place right now. So this is a very interesting one that I look forward to following for the next couple of months. I'm excited. I want it for Brad Pitt, you know, personally, as we know, but I just think it's going to, I have no idea how it'll shake out. What happens when Anthony Hopkins wins? I mean, we do have to be prepared for that. Although once again, two popes equals the wife. It's like the things where it does seem like two popes will be a lot of um appreciation

for it's another like appreciation for a career uh situation and glenn close ultimately did not win last year that's true we'll see but anthony hopkins has won before i'm starting to think that this year's the wife is the aeronauts they don't let women in balloons. You've seen one commercial for the Aeronauts. I honestly haven't even seen the commercial. I've just seen people tweeting, they don't let women in balloons. And I just like saying it.

I've skipped like five screenings of the Aeronauts. I'm really sorry to the filmmakers behind the Aeronauts. Tom Harper, who directed that movie, actually directed a movie earlier this year called Wild Rose that I've talked about before. It's so good. It's weird that he's got two movies coming out this year, both of which are in that zone of like, has anyone seen this film?

It's tough. It's really not what you want. Anthony Hopkins playing God's Rottweiler, winning Best Supporting Actor in the face of Jamie Foxx, Sterling K. Brown, Timothee Chalamet, Tom Hanks, Brad Pitt, Al Pacino, Joe Pesci. Woof.

That would be difficult. Seems like some real academy. Nonsense. Any closing thoughts on The Irishman or the rest of this fucked up world we call movies? Well, I think The Irishman is a reminder that the world of movies doesn't have to be fucked up. Yes, movies are good.

Movies are good. And it is real. The thing I like about it, and we'll finish with this finish with this but you know we said for all of it's like the end of the life and what how have i spent my life and regret and loneliness and all that stuff but it's also martin scorsese just making a three and a half hour technically brilliant epic just being like screw you look what i can still do and look what movies can still be here we are here we are and here we go straight to antonio banderas my new brother let's let's go right to my conversation with him thanks again amanda i am delighted to be joined by antonio banderas antonio thank you for being here thank you for

having me here antonio we have something in, which is that we are both sons of police officers. It's true. And I'm wondering if you could tell me what your police officer father thought about you wanting to be an actor. Well, it's very interesting because it was not my father, the one that actually opposed that idea. It was more my mother. My mother was a school teacher, and for her, just, you know, one of her sons just to get into show business was kind of crazy.

She was probably right. I mean, I'm talking about 1970s, you know, Spain got a very limited show business at the time. There was one TV channel in Madrid and then three or four private companies that were good, but they belonged to families or clans and it was very difficult to be there. And a national theater and that was it.

And in Malaga, in my hometown, there was literally nothing. Some theater that was done at the university. And yes, there was a school, a dramatic art school. But there was, you know, amateurism was, you know, the main thing. But my father, curiously, being a secret police, you know, helped me a lot. Not only just economically, but, you know he he was supporting me and it's funny because years after when i was working in the national theater in madrid i didn't know this but uh one of the employees one of the guys who was just uh working in the theater said to me you

know that your father comes every day to see you and i said, yeah, he comes when the show started. And he sits in the last seat in the orchestra just to look at you. And when you finish your performance, he just leaves every day. And I said, oh, my God. I didn't know that. And I thought it was so sweet, you know. I never said anything to him. You never asked him about that? No, no, because he wanted to keep a secret.

So I just respected that. You know, I just faked that nobody talked to me about that. Was he a fan of the arts? Was he a fan of the theater? Or was this just him supporting it? He was. Yeah, my father and my mother, both, they were theater aficionados. And I used to go with them when we were very little.

My brother and I, we were taken to see plays that were coming from Madrid, you know, when the season started in September. And I just, from the beginning, I loved it. Yeah, I suppose I can call it a ritual that was taking place there, you know, a group of people telling stories to another group of people. I thought it was an act of civilization that we can actually reflect about life being, you know, laughing or getting emotional or just reflecting about the complexities and the depth of the human spirit through theater.

Still now, or probably even more now, theater makes more sense even at those years. Why? Because now we are living in a time in which it seems that things that are not recorded on tape or they are not, you know, in video, they don't exist.

And so theater, this is a very beautiful, ephemeris art that you live in the moment and then the only thing that remains after that experience is the memory. And it just stays there and it grows into you

in a completely different way that other arts do. So it makes sense to me to buy a theater at this particular time, which I did. After I had my heart attack, I have been talking these days very much about that, but after I had my heart attack. I have been talking these days very much about that. But after I had my heart attack, you know, I established

a new order of priorities and money just went really down in the list. And I thought, you know, money in a bank

may be some kind of machiavellic intellectual process. I'm going to spend it doing the things that I really want to do because now I know for certain that I'm going to spend it doing the things that I really want to do. Because now I know for certain that I'm going to die.

And I just don't want to die thinking, I should have done this. I should have done that. No, that's not going to happen to me. That dovetails beautifully with Pain and Glory. But before we go there, can you just tell me what shows you saw as a young person that switched you on?

Were there plays or musicals? There were all kinds of plays, but there were a lot of classical Spanish plays, you know, Fuente de Juna by Lope de Vega, Calderón de la Barca plays, contemporary Spanish authors like Boroballejo, those are authors that are not known here. But I saw also Tennessee Williams,

I saw Arnold Wesker and American and British, you know, Harold Pinter, plays like that. And then I saw in 1976, which was extraordinary weird because we just came out of Franco's regime. And even if he was dead, you know, he died one year before than that. But the regime was still alive, very much, and probably more aggressive than when Franco was alive. But I saw, I don't know how they managed to get in Spain, her, the musical. And it was so shocking.

I have never, you know, especially if you live in a dictatorship, to see a show like that was impossible. It was forbidding. But for whatever reason, they managed to, an American company to get in Spain and perform. And I thought, oh my God, what is this? This was something completely out of the box. Never in my wildest dreams I saw anything like that.

You know, these hippies on the stage reflecting about the Vietnam War and everything that was happening, you know, at those years. It was a beautiful musical that, in a way, it was the push for me to just decide, oh, I want to be there. I don't want to be here in the seats. I want to be there. There, that's my place. I want to jump to the other side of the mirror and of the mirror. Did you sense that other people in the audience

were radicalized by seeing that as well, or was it still sort of a small movement of people seeing that sort of work? Well, it was majoritarian. When I went to see this in Malaga, the theater was packed. But because there was an anticipation, an expectation of starting living another type of life.

You know, after 40 years of the terror ship in which the country was kind of in a state of anesthesia, kind of, you know, there was the will of the people for changes and to understand life in a completely different way. And so that came almost like fresh water in the desert, just to see something like that, that there were other people doing other things that were different, that were more free, that were more, you know, daring, more courageous. It was beautiful, actually. Can you tell me about the Spanish film industry? Because you mentioned what television was like, what the theaters were like.

But in the late 70s, before you started acting in films, what was the Spanish film industry like? There was, you know, besides that, there were some very interesting kind of geniuses and good directors. I will name, for example, Carlos Saura, who is still alive, and Luis Buñuel was still alive too, and he was doing movies, Victor Erize. The rest of the movies is what we call el destape. El destape means taking your clothes off. There were a lot of movies in which the main thing was just to see women naked, really. And it was very cheap.

It was very, very bad cinema. Not pornography, though. No, no. Not even soft porno. It was just, you know, something really without any kind of artistic value, really. Just to entertain masses that were not, you know, artistically educated. It didn't collaborate to actually increase, you know,

a number of spectators that was more cultural, you know. But that period of time lasted not so long. It was just going from the dictatorship to the democracy that, you know, that kind of nude thing was very important in the mind of everybody. I guess probably was useful for something at a particular time. But immediately after, you know, other directors start coming with more interesting ideas. And one of them was Pedro Almodovar, 1980. I met him and he was doing movies that were definitely changing Spanish society later on, you know.

In terms of questioning the morality of the time, questioning the sexuality of the time, there was a number of things that he just got on top of him. And it was kind of a revolution, you know, around his movies with people that were completely against that. All the monolithic,

Catholic culture that we were coming from. And then there were people that loved the idea of just taking steps ahead and just say, okay, this is our past. Let's just leave it there and let's move forward.

So it was controversial at the time, but little by little, the people in Spain started, I don't know if I can use that word, but metabolizing the cinema that he was doing. Can you please recreate that first meeting with him? Do you remember the first encounter you had with Pedro? Oh, yeah, I totally remember. I was working at that time at the National Theater.

I was doing a classical play by Calderón de la Barca. He's our Shakespeare, let's say, right? And so we, a group of actors, among which I was, we were just having a coffee outside of the theater, just waiting to get in there and perform. And this guy appears with a red briefcase, and he was very funny. He just took over.

He just started talking about something. I don't remember even the conversation or the monologue because it was a monologue. But he was funny, witty, fast thinker, you know, very ingenious person. And so by the time that he was a monologue. But he was funny, witty, fast thinker, you know, very ingenious person. And so by the time that he was finishing and he was leaving again, he looked at me and he said,

you have a very romantic face and you should do movies. And I said, sure, whatever. And so he left and I asked the rest of the actors that were with me, I said, who is this guy? And they said, well, his name is Pedro Almodovar and he made one movie, but he will never do another one. 21 movies after, he just realized that actually profits in Spain are not very good. Did you have conversations with him about the way that he saw you? Because I'm so fascinated by the parts, especially in those 80s films that he was casting you in, which is he obviously saw you as a very, obviously a talented actor and a beautiful

figure, but it always seemed like he wanted to subvert your looks and your presentation in some way. Yeah. I mean, I was 19 years old at the time. I was in the school of dramatic arts since I was 19 years old at the time. I was in the School of Dramatic Arts since I was 15. So I was very, you know, inexpert. I just got into the professional world, coming from the amateur world.

And suddenly I was, you know, under the direction of a guy who was actually doing something absolutely different than anybody was doing. I didn't know, actually, at the time, you know, what was going to be the reach of Almodovar movies. It was not until one night at the San Sebastian Film Festival that we were competing, representing Spain,

and the movie produced a scandal. I mean, it was literally a scandal. Which film was this? It was Labyrinth of Passions. The first film, yeah. The second. And suddenly, you know, people started reacting in many different ways

and totally antagonist ways. There were people that wanted to kill us, literally. They were just insulting us and leaving the theater and kicking with their feet on the ground. And there were people applauding and just, you know, looking at us like we were victorious in an Olympic game. It was a confrontation in the audience, and I thought at the time, oh, this is so interesting.

This is good. This is good because if we would have done something absolutely intrascendent, the people wouldn't react like this. People would go home and they would forget about this. But what happened that night there was unforgettable. And that, you know, set up in a way, in my mind, the fact that I was with a group of people leading Pedro Almodovar

that were going to change the history of the Spanish cinematography. I revisited Matador in Time Me Up, Time Me Down last night. It's amazing to me how, even more so than Labyrinth of Passion, how provocative and funny and daring and strange those films are. Did you guys know when you were all making those movies that they were, I mean, there are not, there's no precedent for them. There's really, it has not been things like them since.

I mean, there really exists that those films that you, especially you and Pedro made together, are so unique and challenging, I think, for a lot of more Catholic-minded people. Did you sense that you were provoking every time you were doing something like this? Yeah, definitely. By that time, yes. The movies that you mentioned, yeah. At that time, we knew that we were l'enfant terrible of the Spanish cinematography. We were dangerous, you know, because we were challenging

the order that was established until that time, you know, in terms of morality. And morality is a very strange thing. You know, I remember when I did Law of the Sire, 1985, that, you know, for the first time in a Spanish movie, homosexuality was explicit on the screen, you know. And what I thought it was a beautiful, actually, beautiful story. My character was homosexual.

But my character also, you know, killed somebody, you know, and nobody was putting attention to that. That was absolutely accepted. The fact that you can kill somebody on the screen is fine. There is no problem. It was always accepted in the history of motion pictures, in the history of theater. But now, two people from the same sex having a kiss,

hold on, that's a different deal. So I thought about the hypocrisy of that fact continuously. And so making movies with Pedro Almodovar not only opened my mind in terms of art and what art is made for, as a reproduction, reinterpretation of nature, including human nature. But also, you know, how important it was for society at the time to just use art to open a little bit more the door, to have a wider mind, to understand, you know, how other people feel

and accept it with no problem. You know, that was very important at that time in my country. And I think Pedro Almodovar, besides, you know, you may like his movies, you may not like his movies, that's a different deal.

You know, everybody has taste, but he gave an unbelievable service to Spanish society. When you were making these films with Pedro and with other Spanish filmmakers, was there this expectation that you would eventually leave, go to America, try English language films, or was it just by chance? America was way too far away from us. There was no tradition of Spanish actors working in America. There were traditions of Cuban art actors, you know, Puerto Rican actors, Mexican actors. You have

Katy Jurado. You have Anthony Queen. You have even Andy Garcia. There were fantastic actors coming from those countries of culture that they made it to Hollywood, but not from Spain. Spain was just too far away.

No, it was impossible. If I would have said at those years that I was going to work in Hollywood, it would have sounded basically like a joke. Like somebody is, you know, you're poking a joke and that's it. So how did it happen? It happened almost as an accident.

That's the truth. We came here because we got a nomination for Best Foreign Film with Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown, Pedro Almodovar's film. And then, you know, the distributors at the time in the country, they prepared a number of visits for us. Meanwhile, we were here waiting for the ceremony. So we visit different places, studios and stuff.

And they took us to a company, an agency company for actors called ICM. And then I met this guy that was not an agent. He was just taking coffees literally to the offices of the agents at the time. And he said to me, do you mind if I represent you in America? I was just there in the building. I said, yeah, sure. Could you give me your phone? Yeah, here's my phone.

And I thought, who is this guy? So I left. And a couple of months later, he called me and he said, you have to go to London. I prepare for you to go to London to meet with a guy called Arnie Glimcher. Now, he's an art dealer in New York. He got a beautiful company called Pace Gallery. But at the same time, he's been producing movies. And he's going to direct his first movie.

And he would like to meet you. And I said, well, the guy speaks Spanish. And he says, no. He doesn't. I said, well, what am I going to do? Because I don't speak English. I said, well, you have to fake it. I said, I'm not going to fake that.

You don't fake that. You know, I mean, I was going to be in front of a person and faking what? So, but I got on a plane and I got to London and I got this very elegant guy, you know, from New York, sit down in front of me at a table

and I faked that I was very shy. I don't know. I was just saying yes, yes, yes to everything they were saying. If you would have said to me, you want to jump out of the window, I would have said yes. It was just saying yes, yes, yes to everything that he was saying. If he would have said to me, do you want to jump out of the window? I would have said yes. And anything that he said, you know,

because I couldn't understand practically anything. And at the end, I said, I can't do that. And he totally believed it. No, no, he didn't believe that. Of course, yes, he was laughing. And he says, don't worry, you know, can you learn the lines phonetically? And I understood kind of that.

I said, yeah, yeah. And so I learned my lines phonetically. And two weeks after I was in New York doing a screen test with him. This is the Mambo Kings. That was the Mambo Kings. So I'm curious what Pedro thought of all of this. Because, you know, I'm leading towards pain and glory, but this time between you guys making films before you get back together,

what did he think of you not speaking English, traveling to London and then to Hollywood to make American films? Well, I suppose actually Pedro thought of me practically the same thing that my mother thought years before when I was living to Madrid. Pedro adopted almost the character of my mother, of my father, and he thought, you're crazy. What are you going to do there? You know, and I, and in the other hand, I think it probably, he felt a little bit betrayed at the time. You know, we had a picture because we went to the Berlin Film Festival a couple of years before than this, with a movie

called Time Me Up, Time Me Down. And it was at the time that the wall was coming down, and you know, the Democratic Republic of Germany was getting together with the West Side and all that stuff. And so, you know, it was common

at the festival to go to a piece of the wall and make pictures there, you know, for the press and stuff like that. So he got one of those pictures with actress Victoria Abril, him and me, on top of the wall. And he took that picture and he signed the picture behind, said, the Mambo Kings play very sad songs. Pedro Almodovar. And he gave it to me.

I still have that. And so... Was that sort of like a farewell or just a marking of time? It was just like a slap, like a smack. Like a... And were you in touch with this?

Because obviously you come to America, you become a huge star, you're in dozens and dozens of films. Are you still friends? Are you in communication? We never, never lost communication. And every time that I went to Spain, I saw him when he came to Los Angeles, whether he stayed in our home or we just had dinners and, you know, we were in contact continuously.

How did you decide to reunite in 2011? It was him. It was Pedro that called me. I was in New York, actually, when I received the call. And he says, hey, he says something like, it's about time. And I say, about time of what? He said that we work together. And I said, oh, what do you have?

I said, I'm going to send you something, read it, and let me know. So he sent me The Skin I Live In. Now, that was another step into bizarre territories. But that's Pedro. It feels of a piece with a lot of the other parts that he had cast you in, which is different from Pain and Glory. The Skin I Live In is absurd, surreal, provocative, sexualized. It's a challenging movie in a way.

It's a challenging movie in a way. It's a challenging movie. It's very interesting because people watch that movie as a psychological thriller, but in reality, it's a reflection about creation. You know, it's that reflection that a creator has about the possibility of being, you know, God and creating his own universe and it's like yeah and the whole movie is filled with references to movies for example i have a

tv screen in my in my bedroom in the movie and the character has that that is enormous it's like almost like a movie screen where he can just play with the women that is captive women men actually that is captive and he does his close-ups and everything you know and so it's almost like um like leonardo da vinci could have a relationship with la gioconda with the mona lisa and actually falls in love with her and actually can have a relationship with her. You know, the whole entire movie is about that. It's about the possibility of being God and what is that is in the mind of some creators at some time, you know, and how sick that way of thinking is. You know, the whole movie is about that in reality.

I wanted to ask you as an actor, in Spain, you're often cast by Pedro as these curious, sometimes disturbed fellows, sometimes killers. And then you come to America and you're a hero or a romantic lead. And then you go back to Spain and you work with Pedro again and you are back to being a damaged person,

a curious person who's playing God. Was it difficult for you to learn how to be the hero? And then was it difficult for you to switch back to those parts that you had played in the 80s with Pedro? It shouldn't be if I look at it from the point of view that what I try to do and try to be is an actor. And I play characters. And then sometimes I identify with some of the characters that I do.

Sometimes I don't. I just play them. And I try just to understand, you know, where they're coming from and how I'm going to present them in front of an audience. But not all the time I, you know, I have communion with them. Obviously, you know. I would hope not for some. Exactly.

You play a killer, you know. I have a tremendous respect for human life. So I don't identify, obviously, with the type of characters. And so, no, it was actually refreshing. Coming out of darkness and getting to the light. And, you know then my American career is is done out of necessity sometimes you know because I didn't I got a very strong accent I still do have and so I was limited in the characters that can justify to have an accent

so not everything comes to me I have have probably, I don't know, 20% of possibilities versus other actors who speak perfect English and, you know. Did you feel that percentage growing over time? I was curious about that because I think maybe when you first came on the scene, especially when you were not, you did not know English and you speak so beautifully now.

But now I think that the American culture has just accepted you as a staple of American movies. And so when we see you, we don't even necessarily, I don't think we even hear the accent anymore in a strange way. I think so. Well, you know, I probably Puss in Boots collaborated to that. That's probably true. That's probably true. It was very interesting, actually, that many years after I came to America, they called me just for the use of my voice in a movie.

I mean, not my persona. That's like the use of my voice in a movie. Yeah. Not my persona. That's like a part of our consciousness in a funny way. Tom Hanks, when we were doing Philadelphia, Tom Hanks said that to me. He says, you know, I mean, I know that you're going to try to make some effort just to lose your accent, but don't. I mean, all we want is just to understand you, basically. If we understand you, your accent is part of your personality. And so keep it. Don't be so, because I was all the time making reference to that.

Oh, my accent, oh, my accent. And he says, why are you all the time so worried about that? You know, people accept your accent, so just forget about it. All we have to do is understand you. So if you have difficult words to say, just, you know, work a little bit on them.

But once you do that, you know, it's part of you. And yeah. Even watching The Laundromat, I found myself luxuriating in it. It's better

than you have the accent. You know, it works. It's better for the character. It's more interesting for the film. Let's talk about Pain and Glory. Sure.

When did Pedro first contact you to do this? Because it's a different sort of thing it was uh it was three or four months prior to rehearsals and he sent me a script and he said listen you you're going to read something that is filled with references to uh people we know, a time in which we lived, and events and a number of things, you know. Just read it and then let me know. So I did, carefully. And the first thing that struck me from the script was the style. It was not like a normal Almodovar movie.

It was simpler, almost austere. Quieter. Yeah. Yes. I'm very honest. I was confessional in a way. I thought, oh my God, I didn't even know this about him. So, because, you know, I have been friends with Pedro for now 40 years.

But our relationship, our friendship has been limited. There were certain areas, because Pedro is a very private person that I, you know, out of respect, I never trespass those boundaries. And I think he understood that, and we know it's an invisible,

you know, contract that we have with each other, that our friendship is there. And, um, so there were a number of things about his life that I didn't know. I didn't know that he has to come to terms with his mother. I didn't know that he has to come to terms with actors, uh, or with ex lovers or with cinema or with life itself. I didn't know that in that way. And so, you know, the material was so honest and so raw that I thought, oh my God, this is a step ahead of this man that I have known for 40 years. And so I had the experience in nine years prior to this with The Skin I Live In, in which, you know, it was some certain tension.

We didn't work for 22 years. I arrived to the rehearsals with all of this American experience, and he was not very happy about that. He was actually asking me all the time, where are you? Where are you? You're doing things that you don't used to do. You are using tools that are kind of cheap tools because you want to feel secure in front of the camera. You don't have to feel secure in front of the camera.

Creation is not there. All of these things start going. And I kind of said, well, I see the character in this way. Well, no, that's not the way that I wrote it. And so it was kind of this. Always respecting our friendship and it was always a creative tension. you know, respecting our friendship and it was always a creative tension. It was not never something, you know, dramatic or anything

like that. But then I saw the movie, uh, The Skin I Live In in the Toronto Film Festival and I was shocked. It was shocked because he managed to take out of me a character that I didn't even know I had inside. And that was a big lesson to learn for me. And, um, was it to trust him more? Yeah, it was about that. It was about, hold on, hold on, hold on. Why are you trying to continue to impose, you know, your criteria? You have to listen. You have to open your eyes and your ears, you know, to somebody that you respect, love and admire. So why didn't I do it? So I was thinking, ah, maybe this was the last opportunity that I had with him.

And then nine years after, pain and glory came in my hands. So I went to him in a completely different disposition, and I said it. I said to him what I am saying to you right now. I said, listen, I'm going to start from the beginning. Also, things have happened in my life, like this heart attack, that made me think very much about my life

and about how I confront life and I do things. And he actually said to me, yes, there is something in you that has changed. You feel more vulnerable now, and that's good. You know, you're more real, and I don't want you to hide that he said and i and i said okay so where are we going to start working i said well we're going to start working from zero what about that from nothing let's start just you know embroidering this character very little

by little because i want something very subtle here i don't want you to overdo all the physical problems i don't want you to overdo the fact that the guy's using drugs i don't want you to overdo all the physical problems. I don't want you to overdo the fact that the guy's using drugs. I don't want you to overdo anything. And I understood. And so we start rowing in the same direction

from day one at the rehearsals. By the time that we hit principal photography, we knew what we were doing. And we didn't want to be manipulative. The movie is very emotional, but we didn't want to get intoulative the movie is very emotional but we didn't want to get into that kind of busyness in order to obtain a certain response from the audience

the character is almost like a witness of himself inside the movie there is something mirroring there and then it was so bizarre because the character that I am playing is my director is the guy who is saying action and cut every day so and what was very interesting is because Pedro even as a director continued being very private but then something extraordinary happened and is that because he was very affected by his own material the script that he wrote and i was performing he got very emotional so all the information that i got was emotional information when he come to the set to explain something and he couldn't even talk and i saw oh my god i got it i know exactly what is happening in his mind when he's talking about the mother when he's saying to the mother mother i'm sorry that i am

not the son that you want me to be. And he couldn't even say the line, you know. It was so interesting, all the emotional, you know, data that I was, you know, it was pouring from him at every second. So as an actor, it was a dream because I had all of these things. All I had to do was just pick it up and measure it,

measure it, measure it into, and channelize, channel all of those things in the character. It has been one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life because the rarity of it, the bizarre way that it came to me. I will never have the opportunity to do anything like that in my life after this, because how are the odds that another director calls me to play him in a movie that is about his life? Probably zero. And there's probably no one that you have that kind of a relationship with that you could even make that happen. Was there ever a time when I was

thinking about this, even as I was watching the film, when he would say to you, that's not what I would do, or that doesn't feel like the character, which is, of hair, the clothes that I am wearing. Also, you know, the apartment where 80% of the movie takes place is actually an exact copy of his apartment. I mean, exactly. He took his paintings, his books, everything there. But there was a time in which he said to me, I don't mind if you use some mannerism of mine. And I said, no, I don't think I should get in there because that is going to be very destructive, Pedro. I think we should actually create the character, you know,

with all of these things that we have. We have, you know, all the physical stuff that is strong, all the drugs stuff that is strong you know emotional thing and we start putting your mannerism it's going to be very destructive let's just try to create a character from the inside out and let's see what happens so you allow me also be part of this too in a way and he said i got you i i know fine. Let's just do it like this. And so, no, there was no moments that he says, I would have never said that.

No. And if he was, it was a joke. It was a joke. Like, you know, he was just playing with me. But no, we were both looking for something that any artist look for, no matter what you do as an artist, painting, literature, acting, whatever, which is the truth. The truth.

And that was our goal, to just get to the truth. A couple more questions for you. Sure. You mentioned the heart attack. Yeah. And obviously pain is such a significant part of this part. Yeah. But you play it fairly subtly.

What were you doing to evince this kind of pain without reaching for your back every five seconds in a scene or groaning or sighing? The way that you do it feels closer to me like the kind of back pain that I might have. The kind of pain that all people have when they're going through something and some of it is stress-ind induced and some of it is truly physical. How did

you make that a part of your performance? Holding the reins, holding the reins all the time, because the natural thing for an actor, those are candies for actors. When you have to be, oh, I have to be blind in this movie. So you do a whole entire thing about you know oh i am lame or i have this problem or physical so the actors love those things you know we do but in this particular case um because of the opinion from mullover and my own what we did was just to hold the range is there continuously but it's subtle it's in the background it's. It's something that is almost part of the subconscious when you're watching the movie. And that's what exactly we wanted to get, really.

Because otherwise it's destructive. You know, it takes you a little bit out of the whole thing. So many things, the character has so many things around happening to him that if you start playing all of them, you get into that gray mess and there are no colors anymore. So step by step. So the character is coming out of a car,

or say, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, he's having trouble doing that. But the rest of the time, it's just a way of moving the body that is subtle. Subtleness was a very important thing. I realized very soon when I read the script that actually the character could be created in silence. That I probably didn't need to verbalize anything.

I could have done this as a silence movie. Actually, when I talk, it's almost like an intoxication. The character is created observing others. Observing my mother, observing the actor, observing, you know, this one and this one. It's how he reacts. That's why I meant by that, you know, when I said to you before, that he's almost like a witness of himself. The sequence when the ex-lover comes to visit your character

is so quiet, you have so few lines even, but it's just so absolutely amazing. You know, you could theoretically end this film and your collaboration with Pedro here and say we have this amazing body of work. Do you think you guys will ever make another movie again? I don't know. He loves to work with the same people.

Even in the 80s, we were more like a rock group than a movie crew. You were a company. Yeah. We used to go to dinners together. We used to go to a club together. It was like, oh, here they come, the Almodovar people. You know, we were kind of the Rolling Stones of Madrid in the 80s, right?

I don't know. I don't make the questions. Never I did to him. I never push him to call me or anything like that. If he needs me, he will call me for sure. But it's up to him. Antonio, we end every episode of this show by asking guests what is the last great thing they've seen.

Have you seen any great films lately? Didn't see still some movies that I'm interested in because I am rehearsing theater. And when you're rehearsing theater, you don't read books, you don't see movies, you don't leave. You are all the time there. And the only distractions that I've had is the promotion of this movie. I had to go to Telluride Film Festival, then Toronto Film Festival, back to rehearsals, back to the New York Film Festival, back to rehearsal. Now I'm here in Los Angeles on Sunday night.

I'm going back to rehearsal in five days. I open in my theater. Movies that surprised me this year. I'm so bad about this. Mia de mi vida. I should just say, I'm just dying to see The Joker. I'm just dying to see, actually, you know, Robert De Niro's movie

with Martin Scorsese directing again because, yeah, The Irishman. I want to see that definitely. Maybe you could just say,

you said you're rehearsing a chorus line before you came in. What is it about that show that you love so much? Because I, you know, after the heart attack

I bought a theater. I just, I just found it the most perfect romantic way to ruin myself. And so I bought a theater, and I wanted to do A Chorus Line because it's a declaration of principles in a way. A Chorus Line talks about us from the other side and talk about those people who are not stars who actually are the industry but nobody put attention to them their names don't matter nobody cares about them they just have if they are dancers 10 12 years and then they

disappear and they just vanish and um and i thought that I wanted to open with an homage to actors who are those people that I owe to be an actor. I am an actor because I love actors. When I used to go with my mother and my father to see those plays in Malaga, and I saw them playing, which is a beautiful word in English, you know. Acting, playing, life is beautiful. And so I just also wanted to do it because my character, Zach, goes back

and disappears into the audience and becomes a voice. And the protagonist, the the stars the stars are there those 17 kids that are going to make us laugh and cry because they talk basically about life and i think the music of marvin hamlisch is delicious it's a classic that when i went to new york the first the first time i couldn't see because there were no tickets and I didn't have money to pay, you know, extra money for the extra tickets that were on the street. But I saw later on and I loved it. I thought it was fabulous, you know,

remarkable, unique piece of theater. I thought you were fabulous in Pain and Glory. Antonio, thank you so much for doing this. You're very welcome. Thank you, of course, to Antonio Banderas, and thank you to Amanda Dobbins. Please tune in later this week, where two children of divorce will be talking about a very important movie called Marriage Story.

See you then.