The Big Picture - Nicole Holofcener, 'The Land of Steady Habits,' and the Characters From Her Own Life | The Big Picture (Ep. 84)

Episode Date: September 14, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with filmmaker Nicole Holofcener about her consistent career in film and how she's able to draw on inspiration from her life to create the characters and stories in her movies. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Miller Lite, hold true. I do sometimes think, oh, I wish I could make a really big blockbuster movie, make enough money so that I can retire, at least at a normal age. Let's talk about that. What is your blockbuster movie going to be? It's not. That's unfortunate. I'm sorry. That's the problem. I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. I love writers who sound like their characters.

Nicole Holofcener writes and directs stories from her own life about real people and real anxieties and real frustrations. Since her first film, 1996's Walking and Talking, Hollis Center has worked at a methodical pace, releasing a new original film every four or five years, largely centered on women, their friends and their family, and the idiosyncrasies of modern life. Hollis Center is an ace writer of dialogue and character. Her movies, which include Please Give, Enough Said, and Lovely and Amazing, are smart, but they're never showy. Her latest is The Land of Steady Habits.

It's the first time she's centered a story around a male character, this time played by Ben Mendelsohn. This is also her first adaptation for a movie she's directed, taken from the novel by Ted Thompson. Oh, and one more thing. It's the first movie she's made for Netflix. I talked with Hall of Center about her movies, growing up in a movie household,

and what it's like to be the subject of a deep New Yorker profile. Here's Nicole Holofcener. I'm really delighted to be joined by one of my favorite filmmakers, Nicole Hull of Center. Nicole, thanks for coming in. Thank you, and thank you for saying that. You're very welcome. Maybe we'll talk about why I feel that way a little bit. Okay.

I want to start at the most present moment, though, and I want to go backward in time as we talk. But at the most present moment, you're about to be a Netflix filmmaker, and you've been a theatrical filmmaker for a long time. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about how that came to be with the new movie, The Land of Steady Habits, and what it was like. Wow, I didn't know I'd become a non-theatrical filmmaker. That's so sad. You don't have to. There's not a permanent change. Right, it's at the moment. This is a new shade.

Cool. We developed it somewhere else. The book, I read the book. I love the book. Developed it somewhere else. And Netflix wanted to make it and maybe, you know, a good enough budget and a great deal of freedom. And they let me cast who I wanted. And now I'm a Netflix filmmaker. Congratulations. Was it significantly different in any way? Was

it easier? It was easier. Well, being told you can cast whoever you want. I mean, it's not like I was trying to cast my sister in it or something. They are famous, really good actors. But being told that and they totally stayed out of my hair. They saw cuts and made some notes, mostly very intelligent. And I used some and I didn't use some. And they just believed in me. And it was kind of a dream. Was there any anxiety about not having a movie going to the big screen?

You know, it's a trade-off that I was very happy to make. And this movie, you know, this movie's not like a big movie. This is a small movie and it's a sad movie. It's pretty dark. I want to say that too, because I think people think they're going to get a dramedy. It's not a dramedy. It's a drama with funny things in it as humans can be. But so I thought maybe this is a good place for it. More people will see it than any of my other films. And it's really hard to keep, I imagine, a drama in a theater longer than a couple of minutes anyway. Had it been getting more difficult to get the kinds of films that you make made at this point in time?

It's been about the same for me. I'm lucky in that way that people want to make my movies. But it is always a battle about cast and budget. Can I get more budget and can I cast who I want? Is there an extremely memorable casting showdown that you had? I don't think I knew that, that you really wanted maybe certain people that you couldn't get in. I can't tell you because- Come on. I can't. It's just us. Yeah, right. Of course, there were people I wanted and people actually, there are actors that I can tell you this, that I offered the script to, the part to, they accepted. And then the studio said, I can't cast them. And that's a really fast way to make a lot of enemies with actors. It's horrible. Interesting. interesting and you know maybe I jumped the gun and assumed they would be fine with it or I'm friends with that actor so I said here I'd love you to play this and then by the way the studio

doesn't want you it's horrible that is that sounds very difficult it's funny though to hear you say that because I feel like in all of your films there's a certain kind of actor that we see Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Frances McDormand, James Gandolfini in this movie of Edie Falco you've Ben Mendelsohn who are great actors who often appear in things that are sometimes franchise-y, sometimes a little bit more massive. But when you see them in a role like— Ready Player One. Ready Player One.

But sometimes when you see them in a movie like this, you're like, oh, they're going to do really good work in this movie, like Nicole's movies are. There's probably a quality part, and the actor probably thinks it's a quality part too, right? Yeah, I think they're anxious to do good parts. But it's still hard to get those people across the line sometimes? Across the line, yeah. And it's really arbitrary. It can even be someone who's really famous.

But somehow the algorithms don't match up with what the studio thinks will make money. And they'll later put that actor in something else. So it seems almost arbitrary. What was it like adapting something? This is the first non-original for you, right? It's the first non-original that I've directed. I've adapted a couple of books. And so far, it's been much easier than having to make stuff up.

I did choose to make stuff up in this movie, and I think it helped the movie, but to be able to like prop up a book on a little recipe stand is what I would do and just kind of go through and it's like, that's a good scene. Okay. That's a good scene. And that's much easier than trying to come up with something original. Are you in contact with the author while you're doing that? Not really. Okay. He kind of left me alone and we have a really good rapport. He loves the movie.

He's like thrilled I made it. So that turned out well. I assume that doesn't always turn out well. That's interesting. We should say Ted Thompson wrote the novel that it's based on. What was it about the book that attracted you? Really good story. Pulled me right in. I knew the world. Well, the book takes place in New York, a lot of it, where I grew up, but I didn't include that in the movie. I really related to the parenting issues, how you can just, can I say fuck? You should say it as many times as you like. Oh, fuck.

Fuck, I will. How parents try to not fuck up their kids and how it's inevitable to some degree. And I have two sons, and of course, I could hit myself for many things I've done or said. Don't do that. No, I'll try not to. So I related to that. I related to parental worry and the fact that the book had scenes that I could not fathom writing on my own. It was like I get offered scripts, but usually they're close to something that I feel I could write. Like, oh, I could write this. Why do I want to adapt that or direct that? But this was a book I thought I would never write this story. I would never go this dark. And these people I don't really know in terms of their lifestyle. So that intrigued me. And, you know, I ended up directing a male lead, which was lovely. I didn't choose it

for that, but I'm glad that I got to do that. I did want to ask you about that. So Ben Bendelsohn is essentially the star of the movie. Absolutely. Did you have to change anything about the way that you worked or the way that you thought about making a movie? No, I made him change. I made him stop acting like a dude. I do remember the way he and his son in the movie would hug. Men are always patting each other on the back when they hug.

Yes, that's true. That's like a distancing thing, actually. Yeah, and I had to keep telling them not to do that. I'd say hug like women. How do women hug? You know, they press each other against each other. You can feel the boobs. Yeah, I don't do that.

There's an intimacy thing there. Yeah, but you would if you had a son and you were worried about your son, you'd hug him tight. I just wanted that. Did you feel like you learned anything from having a male lead as opposed to the five previous films you directed? No. With every actor, I learned different things. Certainly, Ben was a unique person to work with, so I always learned that way. But gender- wise, no. I have a friend who's a huge

fan of yours and she wanted me to ask you specifically about the concept of female friendship. And she said that she thought walking and talking was the first time there was an authentic female friendship and the complexities of it on screen. I'm kind of wondering at this stage of your career too, what your relationship is to telling stories like that? Because this movie, while tonally it feels very similar to your other work, it doesn't explore those themes in the same way that some previous ones have. First of all, Girlfriends was ahead of Walking and Talking. One sings, the other doesn't.

Those were movies that I saw that influenced me. You know, in the book, there is a lot more about the friendship between Helene and Sophie and how they really relied on each other. And then when this bad thing happens, there's a big split between them. But I didn't have time to go there. And the movie essentially isn't about female friendship for once. One thing that is, I think, thematically consonant with all of your other films is that money is a big part of this story too in the new film and that seems to be

a point of interest for you what is it that draws you to that and I think it kind of makes some people uncomfortable in a good way do you like that that idea yeah

I'll ask people what they make you can see the look on their face even close friends like someone asks me oh did you make a lot on that I'll say yeah I made blah blah blah Will you share right now what you made?

I know it's just us, but I don't feel comfortable. Money is so taboo and uncomfortable, and I love that. Anything that makes people squirm. It is such a strange thing how private and ashamed people are about money, whether they have too much, they're ashamed, whether they have too little, they're ashamed. And this movie, you know, it's less of a thing, but he does give up his job and thought he would be wealthy enough to retire and panic sets in. I don't think I've ever seen that rendered before. And that was a unique, I thought, a unique way to approach people's relationship to the idea of freedom. Like, when can I actually be free and why am I doing the things that I'm doing? I mean, do you find yourself thinking about those

things too, or is it just incidental to the story? No, I mean, my kids have left home. I'm certainly freer. I do sometimes think, oh, I wish I could make a really big blockbuster movie, make enough money so that I can retire, at least at a normal age. Let's talk about that. What is your blockbuster movie going to be? It's not. That's unfortunate. I'm sorry.

That's the problem. I mean, I would direct, if someone handed me Bridesmaids, oh, I'd be all in. Have you sought out something more broad like that before no it's kind of i've been sent you know offered to try to get bigger movies like that but i didn't love them enough or find them funny enough i don't want to do a dumb one i want to do a really good one if i'm going to do one do you have to be emotionally bound up in the story if you to make a movie is that something that's still important to you? Yeah.

But you do also essentially work for hire as a TV director, right? And I imagine that you don't necessarily have the same relationship to that work as you do the films. Not the same, but I'm fortunate enough to choose TV shows I really like and respect. And I really respect the writers and want to do a really good job. So I am invested, not the same as in my own films, but I'm still really invested. What do you look for in the TV shows or do they, are they coming to you? Um, both, um, uh, you know, uh, if it's funny, good writing, I mean, in general, good writing,

real people, nothing too broad, nothing too silly. You know, I think that I have signed up for a show occasionally that once I got on the set, I thought, hmm, this isn't the best fit. When you're on a show, is it difficult to kind of parachute into something that has been pre-established? Because you've worked on Sex and the City. You've worked on recently One Mississippi, Orange is the New Black. You worked on Gilmore Girls. These are shows that have defined tone, set casts, sometimes massive storylines that you have to be faithful to. What's it like to adapt to that kind of tone from one like yours, which is also very specific and has its own sensibility? Is it hard to just make that shift? With Six Feet Under, I was a huge fan already.

So I walked onto the set, you know, the funeral home, and I was jumping up and down. And I knew every episode. And I was so happy to be there. And I guess I don't try to put my own stamp on those shows very much. I try to just keep it in the same tone, you know, kind of invisible. The writing shines, the actors, it's the show. I certainly direct in my own way and I think my voice is a little bit in there, but generally I try to

just keep what's good, good. It's not broken. There's been sets where I felt very uncomfortable. And that's usually because it's not often that the set, the crew and the set itself is a strained place. Actors are not happy. Crew is not happy. And then I arrive and it's like, here's another one gonna tell us what to do you can sense that right away yeah that's only happened one or two times so what do you do in that case do you just I go in the other room and I cry and I call my agent I say why did I take this job I and then I power through yeah and and look forward to it being over

or you know I can I can connect with one or two actors and that's usually really nice that's

grounds me and if I can do that then I feel more at home you mentioned that your kids have moved out and you obviously

raised them in kind of a quote unquote a Hollywood home a filmmaker's home and you grew up in a Hollywood home in some respects. I'm wondering how that influenced you obviously being surrounded by that stuff. And also if you felt any of that bleeding into the house that you were creating with your family. I'm sure it influenced me growing up

with family members in the movie business. I got to be on sets. I'd visit sets. I was a PA a couple of times. I got internships and things like that. I didn't leave home for college thinking I would be a filmmaker. I was thinking I'd be maybe a fine artist or a writer. And then eventually came to my senses and decided I wanted to do this, which is interesting because now I have a son who had no interest I mean he had an interest in what his mom did but no interest for himself and now he he's really passionate about wanting to make films interesting um I think that you know I was busy a lot and uh but I made them a priority I always did so I I don't feel like they really grew up in such a Hollywood household, unless like a

movie star came to my house. That would be different from their friends. Like, oh, honey, here's James Gandolfini. You've watched The Sopranos twice. So, you know, that can be thrilling. Still, that must be a mind bender. It was for me. Yeah. And your kids not being in your home anymore, is that also changing the kinds of stories that you think you're going to try to tell? Because so much of that is, I found the last three or four films of yours is about these relationships with your children and the way that you try to raise them in the right way, but also the things that you're doing here. Like, I hope I didn't do the wrong thing here. Do you think you'll now move into a different phase of the kind of story that you'll tell? Well, it's interesting. to tell you that the script I've been working on does have an element of a son who's married

and moved away and the wife is kind of a troublemaker. And I guess here we go with another one of my fears, you know, that she's going to, can you say cock block the mother? Absolutely. Is there another word for it? That's the perfect word. Because I know that's happened to some people, I know. Yes. And that can be really painful. It certainly sounds like you're describing an aspect of one of your movies that even if it doesn't exist yet, that feels like a theme. Well, it's going to exist,

I hope. And then you'll see it. What's it like when you put stuff from your own life into movies like this and then the people in your life say, hey, that's our life. It's sometimes fine and sometimes difficult. I will sometimes try to disguise somebody more than I ordinarily would. Sometimes people don't recognize themselves in the movies, which is so wild. I'm so worried, you know. And then they don't see themselves. Will you tell them after the fact? Hey, this was inspired by you?

Hell no. No, I'm glad they can't see it. Okay. Yeah. It's a tricky business with family members and stuff. Mostly I've been given a great deal of freedom because they respect what I do. What if someone said don't, would you not make it? I would do my best to not do it.

Okay. Or to disguise it really well. I couldn't imagine betraying someone's trust like that. How do you figure out what your next stories are going to be now? You said you're working on something at the moment. Are you the kind of person that always has three irons on the fire? Are you singularly focused on one story at a time? The latter. I'll just do one script at a time that I can write. And that's hard enough to get myself to finish it and not change it or throw it away. I wish I had a bunch of ideas. You know, there's filmmakers who make such different

movies each time. Lynn Shelton, for example. I just had lunch with her and I said, how do you, how do you come up with this stuff? She had no answer. She just laughed. No, I don't have a lot of stories in the drawer. I'm sure you did. But no urge to do a murder mystery or something like that? Yeah, you got one? Maybe. Not here. Not here.

We'll talk later, Nicole. Okay. Yeah, I guess I'm curious because I feel like actually your sensibility would apply so beautifully to genre stories too in their own way. You're looking for character and character is what makes people love movies in a lot of way. You know, you're looking for character, and character is what makes people love movies in a lot of ways. You have such great characters. Thank you. But it was just something I was thinking about.

I don't think I have the brain to write a murder mystery. I don't know how they figure that stuff out. Me neither. That's why I'm doing this and not making them. So tell me a little bit about, essentially, what is success for you with a Netflix movie? Because it's not quite the same as the parameters that you might have had in the past.

You know, is it word of mouth, anecdotal? It's interesting that you said this earlier, that you know that probably more people will see this movie than have seen any of your movies. That seems like a reasonable assumption. But is that enough for you? Is that what you're really looking for? They could also press stop really easily

while they're watching my movie. And I think Netflix has a, they know everything. It's like big brother. Success for me is being proud of the movie, feeling like I did a good job, getting mostly good reviews and being able to make another one. Do you read the reviews? Yeah. If a movie starts getting terrible, terrible reviews, I would stop for sure. And that hasn't happened. But because that would

just be so painful. You would just stop reading or you would stop making movies? No, I'd stop reading. Okay, good. No, then I'd kill myself. Don't do that. Have you thought much about

your legacy as a filmmaker at this stage given that you've made you've done a lot of work you know I wish I had bigger feelings about legacy I really don't

I feel like I'm gonna be dead and I don't know like film preservation I think it's really important but I also feel like I don't know I

I I shouldn't really expose myself in this way maybe it's it's like a depressive attitude I don't know. I shouldn't really expose myself in this way. Maybe it's like a depressive attitude. I don't know. I'm going to be dead and gone. And there's going to be a whole bunch of other people making movies. And if my movies inspire them, great. Wow. What a casual approach to your life's work. I guess it is. I know my shrink would probably say, don't say that. I understand what you're saying, though.

You do? You recently participated in the big New Yorker profile. Yes. With Ariel Levy. Great story. I recommend people read it. Very interesting. Good and embarrassing, too, I should say.

Very embarrassing. I think that that's a surefire sign that it's a good piece. Okay. That's what Ariel would say. But I was wondering what it was like to, I assume that you read it, to see those aspects of your life portrayed, to show your career and context in that way. What was that like for you? It's pretty surreal. While I'm proud and I acknowledge it's a huge honor, I was so excited when I found out she was going to be doing this. I kind of read it as if it was about somebody else, which I don't think is that uncommon. Did you not recognize yourself or was that just the mechanism to put some distance?

I recognized myself. Absolutely. You know, to be in a doctor's office and flip open a magazine and there I am like, who, who's that? And I know that I would be so envious of other filmmakers if they got that, and I never got that kind of recognition. And yet, I wasn't envious of myself. I'm not that weird.

But it's kind of an out-of-body thing to be. And also, you know, I can't control what, you know, Ari decided to write about and what angles she did. I adore her, and I think she's a great writer. She was very respectful of things that I didn't want in there. I don't know. It's thrilling, and at the same time, so many things in my life were going wrong that I wished I could have enjoyed it more. In a way, it's not unlike making a film that is influenced by things that have happened in your life

and then people talking to you about it. I assume after they read something like this, they also talk to you about it. I imagine I'm not the first person to ask you about this profile. No. Do people feel like they know you in a way that you didn't want them to now? Well, I don't know because I don't know those people. The people who know me well say um it was so you it sounded just like your voice it was so you she

really captured you and then there's this pause and they'd say what did you think of it and then i think oh i guess there's some you know issues a low a low hum of judgment in that follow up and then I get to say what I didn't like about it you know

which is okay I guess but strangers have not come up to me Nicole I end every show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing

that they have seen so what is the last great thing that you have seen fuck you man just think about it for a second okay oh I know what's the last great thing that they have seen? So what is the last great thing that you have seen? Fuck you, man. Just think about it for a second. Okay. Oh, I know. I saw Love, Gilda.

Oh, I haven't seen that yet. It's great. Yeah? Yes. So this is a documentary about Gilda Radner? Yes. What did you like about it? It really captured her spirit.

It was very moving, hilarious. I mean, I grew up, you know, as a teenager watching her on SNL. So that was really, it was a good movie. I thought it was really well made. I also love the documentary about Gary Shandling, the Judd Apatow. Yes, I did too. Yeah. Did you know Gary? Yes, I worked with him. And did that, was that an effective rendering of the person that you knew?

Pieces of it. I didn't know him that well. I did a draft of a script with him but yeah i bought it i think that's him he was a pretty unique guy i'm trying to think what um narrative movie i've watched recently well lynn shelton's i did it's called sword of truth swords sword like a knight's sword like a blade like a truth correct sword of truth this is lynn's new movie yeah okay you're caping for that right now i'm wedding caping riding what's that mean supporting promoting absolutely okay yeah is that good enough that's wonderful okay nicole thank you so much for doing this this was really fun. My pleasure. Thanks. Thanks again for listening to this week's episode of the big picture for more on movies. Check out the ringer podcast network where on the rewatchables,

Bill Simmons and I broke down one of my absolute favorite movies of all time rounders. So if you haven't heard that, download it now. See you next week.