The Big Picture - No Time to Die’ and Top Five James Bond Movies

Episode Date: October 8, 2021

James Bond is back! After a nearly two-year delay, ‘No Time to Die’ finally arrives in theaters around the world. To celebrate, Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to talk about the new film, Daniel Craig’s legacy as 007, and their top five favorite Bond films (47:00). Then, Sean welcomes ‘No Time to Die’ director Cary Joji Fukunaga to talk about becoming the first American to take on Bond and the unique challenges of shepherding a massive franchise film (1:22:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Cary Joji Fukunaga Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. It's going to be on the Ringer Reality Podcast. What's it called, Johnny Bananas? Death, Taxes, and Bananas. We're going to be breaking down this season of The Challenge, Hall of Fame episodes, and I'm going to be taking you behind the curtain of America's fifth major sport. Are we getting special guests? We're going to have special guests. We're going to have special effects. The show's just going to be special. I can't wait. Check it out. Death, Taxes, and Bananas on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Sean Fennessy.

I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Bond, James Bond. After a nearly two-year delay, No Time to Die finally arrives in theaters today. To celebrate, Amanda and I are joined by our very own Moneypenny. It's Chris Ryan to talk about the new film, Daniel Craig's Legacy as 007, and our top five favorite Bond films. Later in this show, I'll have a conversation with No Time to Die director, Kari Joji Fukunaga, a favorite here at The Big Picture, to talk about becoming the first American to take on Bond and the unique challenges

of shepherding this massive franchise film. I hope you'll stick around for that. But first, let's go right to No Time to Die. It's actually here. Amanda, I don't know how many times you have longed for this moment. How are you feeling? You saw the film.

It exists. Are you alive? I saw the film. It exists. Are you alive? I saw the film. I'm alive. Listen, I had a fantastic time. I love going to the movies and especially going to Bond movies. Please note how I phrased the sentence. I had a fantastic time. Okay. That was my experience. We'll talk about the content of it. Some of it works. Some of it doesn't. It's a movie. Movies. They're back. CR, you're the proud son of an Englishman and so Bond is in your blood in many ways.

Tell me how you felt about No Time to Die. Riddled with nanobots. Man. Not just for Christmas. Crawling through my bloodstream. I was like Amanda, thrilled to be back at this kind of movie,

and we saw it on the biggest screen I think we possibly humanly could have, and it was a lot of fun. I have a lot of notes. I think that I feel, overall, an overriding sense of relief, relief that Daniel Craig is done with this, relief that the Craig cycle

has come to a conclusion, finally, after what feels like a very laborious last five years for the franchise of getting this movie to theaters, getting it up. We'll talk about why I think that there is a degree of catharsis around this movie.

And yeah, I'm excited. I think that it'll be exciting to watch them reconfigure this going forward. Yeah, the film comes with a lot of pomp and circumstance for a variety of reasons. It's obviously well known that this is Daniel Craig's final installment in the series. Craig is now officially the longest running Bond in franchise history,

which is something I recently learned and is kind of fascinating. This is also the longest period of time that has passed between Bond movies. Spectre was released in 2015. So here we are more than six years later. We finally get another Bond movie. Obviously, part of that was due to the COVID-19 pandemic and the delays that came in movie theaters. We're going to start our conversation about this movie in a non-spoiler fashion. Now, I will say at a certain point, we have to go into spoiler territory because there's just too much to unpack about the long-term implications of the franchise.

So we'll talk through some of the film. We'll send you a little spoiler warning if you want to check out before seeing the movie or fast forward to the moment when we share our top five james bond movies i think that will be a lively and spirited discussion of chris defending his own morality you can do that um in the meantime very quickly this is an interesting bond movie insofar as it has a relationship to time in a way that very many bond movies do not. It starts almost exactly where Spectre left off, which is to say Bond is retired. He has retreated to Jamaica, and he is drawn very quickly out of retirement by, I guess, a kind of plot to

unearth and expose and maybe even destroy Spectre, and he has to figure out what that means. That intertwines deeply with his relationship with Madeline Swan, played by Lea Seydoux, who we, of course, seen in previous films. And previous films and their on again off again love affair and the complicated nature of it um bon encounters old foe blofeld in this film he battles a duplicitous state department operative he eventually confronts a villainous poison merchant i hope i'm getting that correct we will talk about the complications of the plot. That man is known as Lucifer Safin. Can we just call him Lucifer Satan?

Because that's the thing. Lucifer Satan. That's, you know, Bond is not shy about telling you exactly what it wants. This is the franchise, of course, that named a character Pussy Galore. So Lucifer Satan fits in nicely there. I have foster cat care home, though. I'm really embarrassed that Madeline Swan did not stick out to me until this movie, even though she was in the last movie. I guess I was trying to understand what was going on in Spectre.

But yes, they've read Proust. Anyway, continue. Wow. You know what? I didn't even realize that until you just said it. Time, buddy. There you go. There is no time to die, but there's plenty of time to break down this movie. It's, of course, also directed by Kari Joji Fukunaga, who I'll talk to later in the show, who's, you know,

really gifted and talented filmmaker. In particular, I feel like the first half of this movie really sung for me. I really enjoyed it. What did you guys think, Amanda? How did you feel about the way that this story was laid out and how it was executed? I did not understand 20 to 30% of this movie, which, you know what? I don't understand 20 to 30% of this movie, which you know what? I don't understand 20 to 30% of a lot of Bond movies. As we were preparing our top fives or honestly just preparing for this podcast, I found myself reading a lot of Wikipedia plot summaries. And let me tell you, for movies, I know like the back of my hand,

reading the plot summary of a Bond film is just a a confounding experience and they're supposed to be and to some extent i revel in that you know sean will talk about bond villains and what is like your long-held personal vendetta against bond villains um i i like absurdity i like ridiculousness this had a little bit of the specter the film vibe of trying to do too much and not quite explaining it enough so it was i wasn't lost in the in the insanity or the over the topness i was lost in like i don't know what a nanobot is i like i don't you said that rami malek was playing a poison merchant, which like, I guess that's a good way of describing it, but I still don't really understand what he was doing.

And to some extent in a Bond film, that doesn't matter. In this a little bit, particularly in the third act, when you're spending a lot of time with him, it does slightly. And I do think plot-wise it gets away from them. Yeah. Usually when we say raising the stakes in a James Bond movie, it means a bigger stunt, a bigger chase, a bigger explosion.

In this movie, it's slightly different because of what we'll talk about later in the chat, which is to say that the consequences matter more in the telling of this story. And so maybe that means that the story means more. I'm not, I'm a little bit torn on that because as I went back and revisited a bunch of Bond movies this week, candidly, I don't think any of them make sense.

And I don't mean that as an insult. They're kind of like secondarily plotted. You know, there's like a missile and he's got to stop the missile from going off. That's usually like the sum total of the explanation. Someone is power mad and Bond has to step in. But first he has to go to Turkey to get a key from somebody. Exactly.

Chris, how much do you care about the plotting of a movie like this versus the aesthetic and creative decisions that go into just making it? Yeah, it's the telling, not the tale. So I think the more I considered what happens in No Time to Die, and let's keep it's the telling, not the tale. So I think the more I considered what happens in No Time to Die, and let's keep it to the beginning because I know that we want to backload this pod with conversations about the ending. I thought that the opening 30 minutes were confusing because, like you said, Sean, they are Spectre Part B. And I was not prepared for that really. And I think this is maybe something that is going to be an issue with the film taking six years to come out since

Spectre is that it almost acts as if you've just watched Spectre or Spectre is fresh in your mind or Spectre is good. So you've been thinking about Spectre for a while. But that being said, the beginning of the film, which opens with basically the inciting incident that brings Rami Malek's character into Madeline Swann, into Lea Seydoux's character's life, I think is pretty interesting.

And I think that the idea that someone basically was using Spectre-like tactics to avenge a crime committed by Spectre is really cool and really fascinating. And I think what happens in a lot of modern movies, especially big franchise movies, is that they take a pretty compelling idea and just quickly overcomplicate it to shit. And they just keep adding layers and side missions and MacGuffins and confusing motivations and extra characters

where you didn't really need a third villain in this situation. And they take what makes that first kernel of like, oh, cool, so why is he wearing a mask? Or why is he so upset at this guy, the father of this daughter? And then you can't remember why you're even watching the movie 25 minutes later.

Now, Bond has so much accrued credit with audiences that you just will give it the benefit of the doubt. But when you ask about, do I think Bond movies make sense? No. But the Bond movies of the 60s are so suavely and laconically told. There's not that feeling that you get with the Craig movies of they're pushing a boulder up a mountain and then they take five minute breaks to kind of look around and then they just go, oh, I got to get it further.

And every exertion has to top the last one. It's a devil's bargain, right? Because it gives these Craig movies a lot more gravitas. Obviously, we have, the three of us celebrated Skyfall many times over the years. I suspect we will celebrate it once more

on this podcast. But part of what works so well about Skyfall is it has cool cars and it has the Bond women and it has the incredible set pieces and Q is distributing gadgets. But also it does have the weight of a Bond history and a Bond emotionality. And Fukunaga is, I think, a good fit for the franchise in general because he knows how to do style. He knows how to do action, as fans of True Detective will identify. This is also a guy who's adapted Jane Eyre. He is interested in things in both directions.

The complication is ultimately, I think, when you have one of these movies, and this is also true of movies in the MCU. It's also true of Mission Impossible movies. It's true of most franchise entertainment, like you said, Chris. It usually feels like six people wrote the movie, and this kind of feels like six people wrote this movie. And so if you're trying to wrap your head around specifically what happened, I don't find it's going to be all that rewarding.

But if you take the component parts, which is to say the big shootout set piece in Cuba, the opening car shootout in Matera, some of the more gorgeously shot moments between James Bond and Lashana Lynch's character. If you take all that stuff and you put it all together, it basically just feels like a classic Bond movie until we get to that final third act that Amanda is pointing to. I'm kind of fascinated to know how people receive this movie because on the one hand, there's so much anticipation and the craig movies are largely

very popular but also it's a it's a it's a big step in a new direction um amanda what do you what do you think is gonna how is this movie gonna be received well i'm we need to put that question on ice because there is kind of one spoiler um and one development that sort of changes all of that but you brought up uh mcu movies and this this movie picking up right after specter and bringing in a lot of the mythology and things that you need to know before and some people have compared it to that superhero movie right in that this point you're bringing, you have to bring all of your Bond knowledge, but also figure out how all the pieces are fitting together and the stakes are raised. And I think that's definitely how a lot of people watch movies now and what

people want from movies because the MCU is obviously incredibly successful. So is, um, so are all the DC movies, even though they don't make sense, but I don't know if that's what bond fans want. I mean, they, there are tenets of a bond movie that you have to have. You have to have the bond, James Bond and the drinks and the cars, and you have to have Q. I think, you know, even Daniel Craig was upset that Q was not in the first two of, of his films. So there are rules for a Bond movie, but they're different than the rules for other types of movies and frankly, other types of fandoms. So it's interesting. I think by giving people what they think movie fans want right now in some ways they're confusing what bond fans

want i also just i don't want to spoil our list but i don't think any of us chose a movie involving the organization specter is that right uh i think i have some do you have one you have some blow failed i do i do as well but it's it's not it doesn't it's not what you're describing it doesn't dominate it right and so I just I point that out to say that like this movie and this this obviously starts with Spectre the movie itself which I re-watched and no it's not good but maybe not misunderstanding but putting different weight on what the franchise does and what its fans want from it, which is always a tricky bargain. Yeah, I think under normal circumstances, and I have talked about

in the past, I'm not a huge Bond person. I think the fact that it doesn't have continuity, really, you know, it kind of doesn't have the sensation of time coursing through it has made it a little bit more impenetrable for me. I didn't grow up with it in my household the way that I think you guys did where it was on TV a lot and your parents liked it. So for me, it's actually been easier to get into the Craig films because it seems like they are creating this kind of, not just this hidebound world, but this ongoing story. And on the other hand, when something that is as unique, esoteric unto itself As James Bond starts to feel like everything else, I think there could be diminishing returns on that. I guess since this is Craig's last film,

it's still yet to be seen what kind of James Bond we'll have in the future. And also the idea that MGM UA has been acquired by Amazon theoretically, and that James Bond could be not just James Bond films, but a whole world of James Bond that we're getting content-wise. But Chris, just going back to the movie quickly, I mean, all told, having experienced the Daniel Craig story and the way that Amanda is identifying that it is a little bit more of a universe now, do you think it was a success broadly?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that it's actually kind of a miracle that these movies, James Bond movies shouldn't work in the modern day. First of all, not the least of which because of his rather outmoded ways of interfacing with the world, his sort of attitude towards women, his attitude towards non-English people. But for the most part, exactly what we've been talking about, this kind of like every movie is a soft reset. Every movie forgets the past and starts this character off in another

country, in another situation, in another state, but is essentially, he remains the same no matter what. To try and do some sort of serialized storytelling, and not only to do that, but to obviously lean into the pathos of a character who was supposed to be impervious to life's slings and arrows. I mean, quite literally. The idea that this guy would have a bad knee, the idea that this guy might be an alcoholic or have a substance abuse problem, the idea that this guy might have a complicated relationship

with his childhood or his parentage, the idea that he has a complicated relationship to England is really what this series tried to do. The interesting thing is you guys talk about the different authors. Each one of them has probably had multiple ghostwriters working on it as well as the credited authors. This one obviously had Phoebe Waller-Bridge working on it with Purvis and Wade,

who were sort of the custodians of the Bond screenwriting room. But then there's also, I heard Scott Z. Burns was involved. There's Jez Butterworth worked on Skyfall. There's just tons of writers who worked on it. There's also the Broccoli Wilson element of it, where I think that they still want Bond to do Bond things and for this movie to do Bond things. And I think sometimes that's very successful. Skyfall is, I think, easily the best Bond film ever made, and it's not really that much of a discussion. But once you start basically putting up,

the more titles you put up, the more prolific you are, the more you're just kind of getting into, how do you negotiate wanting stakes, wanting emotion, wanting characterization with, I just want this guy to have missiles that come out of an Alfa Romeo, and I want him to seduce a woman in seven different countries in 110 minutes.

You know, I wanted to ask you guys one other thing before we get into some some superlatives and and talk about the ending the film opens i think quite fascinatingly it's essentially that that lucifer satan origin story where we see this rami malek character come to this home in i don't know if it's in the france or in norway i know it's it's shot in norway and he encounters this this mother and a little girl. And it honestly felt like, you know, the girl with the dragon tattoo.

You know, it was a crime fiction kind of a setting or a serial killer story, something along those lines, which is extremely out of character for a James Bond movie, but extremely in character, I think, for what Fukunaga is good at. And it struck me that would Bond movies make more sense if they actually did what mcu movies claim that they are doing which is that they kind of like transform into these sub genres where they're like this is a cold war thriller or this is a you know a sports movie or whatever could could the bond movie be pliable and would the audience accept that if it lowered its stakes if it focused on a single villain instead of a worldwide enterprise attempting to take down you know all of asia

i i wonder if audiences would accept that because you're right chris that there's all this expectation and how much of it is brockley wilson and the production team behind the film how much of it is the filmmakers how much of it is the person who's portraying bond who inevitably accrues power over time and says i have to be doing these kinds of things in my film i don't know amanda like if they if they try to scale it down a little bit and make it a more genre thing could that work well i think in some senses they do and the most successful bond movies are the ones that you can say okay well this is the one where they deconstruct bond or this is the one that's really like a lecure film or this is the one that's really like a Le Carre film, or this is the one that is, you know,

the ridiculous ski jumping one. But, you know, but like the ones that have like a bite-sized identity and do have a sense of what they're doing, whether it is the villain or the mood or the performance, you know, and I think like a lot of the Daniel Craig ones could be, this is the one where Bond is either like a, a good actor or B like has emotions. Um, and you know, and, and actually being a good actor and having emotions, um, in terms of like a

British masculine character is an interesting thing to untangle. But I think that the successful Bond movies do have a sense of their own identity. And I think like I tell that a Bond movie doesn't really have a handle on what it's doing or is trying to do too much is when you have to explain multiple villains and multiple plots when it gets like a little bit bigger. And of course course they're like trying to get a little bit bigger right because that's how franchises in the modern world works but but yes i agree with you it works best when i don't know when people know what they're doing at least a little bit chris what if they made bond a prestige dirtbag paul trader's bond well i was gonna say like what we want the three of us want from bond but we

probably all individually want different things but our idea of wouldn't it be cool if they made three days of the condor bond you know or if they made uh brexit bond or something like these these ideas that we could just put up on a whiteboard they're never gonna make those movies you know what I mean like we've been doing this for long enough to know that, like, maybe once every... They made one, and we're lucky. Yeah, absolutely. And they still went to Macau and shaved him,

and then, like, it was like, there's helicopters. Don't make fun of the shaving scene. I love the shaving. You like grooming in movies. It's an erotic twist. I love it. I love it. And they... Chris, Chris, hold on. Hold on, Chris, love it. And they, they love, I obviously, they loved it. Hold on,

hold on, Chris, slow down. Have you ever been shaved? Yes or no? Uh, yeah. Like,

like by like a guy in a barbershop. Head to toe or like, like for when I was training as a swimmer, did we used to do that? No, I wasn't, I wasn't in the hair growing point at that when I was, when I was a competitive swimmer,

you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, anyway, that's incredibly vivid. I vivid I must say no you know what I mean like we also but I will say I predate all of the the long sleeve long-legged suits that they rocked so we really don't know what my contribution would have been to competitive swimming. Okay. Number one, didn't those get disqualified? Yeah. But like, didn't Phelps use those for like five years?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But now you can't, they're back to overalls, you know? Yeah.

I'm just saying, I'm just saying like we, we had the tech was not there yet. Okay. You know? Sure. What was your question, Sean?

It's just been a very elegant sidebar here about, um, your body hair and your swimming career. As usual, we've returned to where we feel safest on the on the big picture we want from a bond movie which include like a lot of body hair or lack thereof well i was mostly going to say if you ask a couple of different people on this podcast we could probably all come up with like a cool bond movie that we would love to see but ultimately any Bond movie needs to be like 25 things

to 2.5 billion people. You know what I mean? Like, however, it needs to be the most accessible and that's sometimes, you know, we get very proprietary

about the things that we love and then I think we start to twist them where we're like, oh yeah, you know what would be, I need Bond to just like be an AA for two hours.

It's like, nobody wants to see that. I don't want to see that for the record. But I daniel craig does i think daniel craig would be like wouldn't it be amazing if this guy couldn't walk you know like it's it's true and there's something interesting about that but also to me the most electrifying part of the movie is when anna darma shows up and they have this big shootout and he's you know they're both taking shots together and you know they're back both taking shots together and, you know, they're back to back firing guns at faceless specter.

It's like a Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers. It's the daffiest Hollywoodist part. It's almost, it's so good, but it actually doesn't fit in this, in this cycle of movies really at all. It's like,

this is like a Busby Berkeley movie. Yeah. That's the thing though. It's like, I, I accept that we all kind of have lizard brain about this particular franchise. We're like at its core as much as Sam Mendes brought to the stories and our pal Roger Deakins and of course, Daniel Craig and his conception and all the writers and the way that they've

changed and shaped and redefined this whole franchise. I was like, give me Ana de Armas with a, you know, big slit down the front of her dress, holding a machine gun. That's actually what this franchise should always be. So, you know, or like, you know,

a car turning into a submarine or like someone on a jet ski that becomes a helicopter or whatever. Like the, it was funny trying to put our lists together a lot. And I've said this before, a lot of the movies, I just remember fragments i either remember like sean connery in a tux just being sean connery just a plus forever thank you

and or someone jumping out of a plane and i honestly don't know why they're jumping out of the plane where they are and you could interchange the bonds at some point but you just expect the uncertainty here's the thing you are talking about, you guys are saying what you like about Bond. Somewhere, Christopher McQuarrie and Tom Cruise are like, I know. It's true. It is true. They fucking spot rushed Bond. They did.

While Bond was making dark Where's My Dad Bond, Mission Impossible is just like, this is what you guys want. You want Rebecca Ferguson putting dudes in the figure four leg lock. I think that's part of what makes it interesting about what they're going to do in the future because not only has mission impossible kind of i think frankly risen in stature in the since the craig era began and then you know we do have all this mcu stuff and frankly we have the fast and the furious i mean the fast and the furious has also in many ways taken on

certainly not as much as cultural importance as james bond I mean, the Fast and the Furious has also, in many ways, taken on certainly not as much as cultural importance as James Bond. I mean, honestly, the Kingsman movies do numbers. Like, John Wick is not without its similarities to the world of James Bond. It's very true.

I mean, the truth is, ultimately, that this is the original germ. This is the patient zero of popular movie culture, the James Bond films. So it finds itself at this fascinating crux point, and I'll tell you why. But before I tell you why, I'm going to let you know that this is a spoiler warning. We're going to talk about the end of this film, some of the consequences of this film,

a couple of meaningful details that if you haven't seen it, you'll want to probably skip ahead about 10 minutes before we get into our list. Guys, this is really not a joke. You think you like spoilers? Turn this. And I try to be mean about people who whine about spoilers. Turn it off. And Bobby, I'm really sorry because we're about to spoil this movie for you. Sorry to Bobby. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. All right, let's begin spoiling. First and foremost, we learn that in this film, Madeline Swan, who has a five-year interlude away from james bond has become a mother and who was the father of her child of course it is james bond james bond is a

hashtag girl dad just like your boy on this podcast unfortunately for me um in addition to that the film uh ultimately ends in a climactic moment on an island somewhere between russia and asia i believe it's described the disputed straits between Japan and Russia. That island is controlled by the poison merchant that Rami Malek plays. And the film's dramatic conclusion results in James Bond being exploded by hundreds of missiles and he reaches his ultimate demise. James Bond is dead. Yeah. Fun fact, just if anybody's read the Pandora papers, they'll know all of my offshore accounts

are in the disputed territory between Russia and Japan. So, what does that mean given the way that that island was exploded and James Bond died? What happened to you?

All of your savings? We're in a moment of retrenching. You know, I think that the board is currently meeting. Okay, Amanda. So, there's this final moment to this movie bond is on the phone with his daughter and with

Madeline Swan did you cry did you cry be honest uh it's fine I did I teared up I'm a human being I think I teared up but didn't cry you know like I wasn't like sobbing tears but I was like you know getting getting a little dusty got a little dusty got a little dusty chris is really disappointed in no no not at all i'll tell you i haven't

answered this question i teared up because it's manipulative it is and it was effective i thought it was well done and as as chris pointed out i definitely was thinking of armageddon as it was happening i've never cried harder in a movie in my entire life than i cried at armageddon and it just it brought it back for me Chris you pointed this out afterwards and I had the exact same thought the movie that it reminded me of actually was a another Michael Bay film it was the rock because there's the visual

of Nicolas Cage when the VX rockets are going off in our in the rock but with the dialogue from Armageddon of like we win Gracie I will I did I did choke up and you want to know why? Because fucking Carrie came through on that one. Yeah, because the most beautiful shots possibly of this entire and I'm

counting this against even Skyfall of this entire cycle are the rockets splitting up and Craig kind of just falling there. And then when you're like, I wonder if they're going to kind of like throw his body out into the ocean and it'll be like Jasonason bourne style where he's floating and maybe he'll move and he's like nope like my guy did not go out into the ocean let's just put it that way bond is dead it's a bold move obviously i think part of the reason that he was able to die i want to say is because daniel craig has so much power and influence over this character and he had to be compelled to come back to do this movie.

And this feels like a carrot. This feels like a reason to memorialize yourself even more deeply as the character, to say, I'm the Bond who died. I'm the Bond who reached a kind of finality. Did you like the decision, Amanda, to end the story this way? Well, let's put it this way. I didn't have a tantrum in the car on the way home, as it seems many journalists did. And I knew that it was going to be a deal, big deal, obviously, as you're watching, you're doing a bit of like meta commentary or whatever. But I was in the moment and it didn't really occur to me how much people would just absolutely throw a fit as they already are. And I think especially all of the aforementioned fans who are like, what gadgets do we got today? We'll be very angry. So, you know, because I'm a more of

a chaos agent than I like to admit that I like that they did it. I like that they're pissing people off who kind of annoy me. Um, I don't know. I read too many lists of people i've read a lot of lists of people ranking all their bond movies too many nerds out there being like specter's amazing and it was like you know i don't even know what's going on so many bad opinions that i want i read chris's list too i know it was crazy it's unbelievable um i i like that they did something provocative. And I like that they did something that needles people. And I was moved by it. So sure, yeah. I think it was also just a savvy decision because it gets people interested in what's

going to happen next. Sure. It's not like Bond's going to go away. Yeah. And to some extent, to the point I was making before, the one where Bond dies, I mean, that is focused. And fortunately, they had to do poison merchanting in the middle, which I really, honestly, every time you say it,

I just imagine the 13th century, and people sailing across the ocean being like, how, anyway. Chris, what did you think? Bond died. How did you feel about the decision? Well, I immediately thought back to Daniel Craig's infamous quote about

he'd rather slit his wrists than play James Bond again. So we really shouldn't be surprised at all. Also, the idea of getting triggered by this is kind of ridiculous since sometimes a different actor is just playing this guy who has no history. And this is not like we've asked someone to step in and be Luke Skywalker moment, or we've killed Luke Skywalker moment, which it you know, like it, it's just a continuum. I think that if I was going to be critical of it, I would say that something that has slightly hampered the less good films in the Craig cycle is a combination of self-importance

and self-loathing like a, this film has to be bigger than what, you know, people want from it, but we also are kind of like just loathe to make it you know and i think you could argue that specter and this film have a little bit of a like okay i'll do one more but if i'm gonna do it we're gonna fucking kill this guy and then like people will stop asking me about this and maybe they'll stop asking me if tom hardy should replace me or whatever and so i think that while I really appreciated it in the moment and thought it was a really effective piece of movie making, and I certainly don't care that this character is quote unquote dead.

I do think that there is almost an act of hubris in doing it, if that makes any sense. How did you guys feel he performed as the father of a young girl? Was he a good dad for the two weeks that he knew his daughter no because he gets into like 17 gunfights with like his daughter on his hip yes he seems to have brought some danger to his daughter's life so perhaps it's for the best that he was murdered he gives her a sweater before he sends her off on the boat but he doesn't put the sweater on her he puts her in a zodiac and is, float out into the to the straits between Russia

while like 19 different air forces are like, we need to bomb this island. I will say it's a beautiful sweater. Yeah, that's true.

One of the things that's so funny about all these movies is just the incredible amount of talent in front of the camera that they end up getting for what ultimately

become small and often thankless roles. They're long stretches where Ralph Fiennes is sort of tortured by his role as a leader of MI6, but also I don't understand what he's tortured about. As a kind of conclusion, do you think that this whole universe of Bond is now officially done and they're going to start from scratch? Or is there going to be some attempt to continue? You know, there was some talk about the Lashana Lynch character and whether or not she is 007 for long stretches of this film until she ultimately relinquishes that title.

Are all these people gone now and we're starting anew? What do you think? You know, they've done the continuity before with Q. And then obviously, judy dench was uh m through i always get the letters mixed up guys i promise i like these movies but she was m through pierce brosnan and part of this franchise so they can do it um and i i think it would be very cool if they want to set lashana lyn Lynch up for it. Like this is, I'm very curious about how the Broccoli's responded to this character and handled it because it,

in some ways it does feel like they, they had a perfect setup and then maybe they won't go through with it based on all of their previous public comments, which are not the best. So I think it would be cool, but once you've killed him, you also have to start over, right?

Otherwise it makes no, it doesn't make very much sense. And that we should say that the four words at the very end, which I didn't stay for, but apparently our James Bond will return and not double Oh seven, James Bond. So I don't know that they will. Interesting.

Okay, Chris, what about you? These are still very closely guarded, important movies to that producing company, to Eon. So it's hard for me to imagine a 007 spinoff on Amazon starring Lashana Lynch. I guess anything is possible. I'm sure Amazon did not buy this whole thing and then just say, oh, you guys want to just keep making a Bond movie once every seven years? That's chill.

It's just $500, $800 million. Don't worry about it. So anything is possible. I could see any number of these people, Wishaw, Rory Kadir, Ralph Fiennes coming back. I think it's worth noting that we will no longer get CIAia operative felix lighter uh in these movies um another like extraordinary actor who is asked to read like 11 lines yeah who's like picked up bond at the airport 13 times and then dies uh talking about jeffrey right of course yeah but i think they'll do a hard reset i think i think that the the opportunity is here now whether or not purvis and wade keep working on it or whatever i think that the opportunity is here now. Whether or not Purvis and Wade keep working on it or whatever, I think that this is the opportunity to bring in, go get Tobias Menzies.

Go get your team. Tobias Menzies is previously in them. He's an assistant. Then Olivia Colman can be M. You know what I mean? We can do whatever. Okay. Let's talk about that then.

Chris, would Tobias Menzies be your number one choice for a new Bond? Boy, this is a tricky question. I want to be as like, first of all, I don't care. Like if Idris Elba or Lashana Lynch make a good movie, I'll watch it. It's like I like James Bond movies. That being said, I need to see Tom Hardy play Bond. I just need to see it happen just to see if he's still got the inception pitch in him.

Yeah, that's true. Do you think he does though? I mean, if he, if Eames is James Bond, I'm psyched. Yes.

Can he access that? Guys, Tom Hardy has his bond. It's called Venom. Okay. The man found his James Bond and he's going to make 37 Venom movies. I'm fucking here for it.

Let me tell you, it's unbelievable. He's way more committed to Venom than he could ever be to James Bond. I just want you both to know that. That's my take. Is that I'm definitely down, like Barbara Broccoli, I believe, as Amanda alluded to,

made some sort of kind of restrictive comments about who can play Bond. Daniel Craig himself said, I think there should just be better parts for women. I don't think they need to play James Bond. I think that's been misunderstood as him saying like only a man can play Bond. I'm not precious about it.

I just want the movies to be good. And I personally am ready for a slightly more episodic version of this movie maybe for three or four of them is just tell tell a story tell a couple of movies where it's like bond us to go here and stop this person from doing this has a girlfriend for in 90 minutes but then she's not in the next one like let's let's just keep it moving like that um don't make me need to know who mr white is don't make me think about vesper for the better part of a decade let's let's just okay please please respect vesper i mean i agree i agree but vesper like eva green is dope but like when they're still invoking vesper and i'm like

it's a good point amanda you've been advocating for lena dunham for years to take over 007 um do you think that that will come to fruition yes you don't need to bring this and that into this I wish I wish Lena well she got married congratulations um so I agree with everything that Chris just said and what Tom Hardy is to Chris in terms of I just would love to see him as Bond. Emily Blunt is to me as, as Bond. And I like basically agree with Daniel Craig that wouldn't it just be nice if there were like nicer parts for women. And I think also, especially if you're going to have a woman as James Bond,

like LaTonna Lynch is like right there. So it would be super unfair. And, and like a waste of the setup that they did. But I just, I'm like a huge emily blunt stan i like i don't really know what else to say about it and i think her combination of she's like a great action star and she is just has the charm and the personality and i think that when you were listing all of the many spinoffs that come from james bond and all of the many spinoffs that come from James Bond and all of the different franchises with like action set pieces and yada yada that that exists and that we all love like that charm that style that just really cool person at the center of the frame um who I guess many men want to be

and who many women learned like very disturbing lessons about men from, uh, like Emily Blunt can actually do that. You know, she has, I mean, she would put a different spin on it, but she has that personality and we don't like not enough movie stars get a

chance to be like pure charisma on screen anymore. And I just, I would like to see the charisma and I'd like for her to be something besides Mary Poppins, you know, I'm going to throw an ideal idea at the wall and you're gonna laugh and then I'm gonna tell you that I guarantee you there has at least been a conversation about this at Amazon is you get blunt and you get Krasinski is Jack Ryan and you get a little shared universe going and if you think that's stupid I agree but there's definitely a guy at amazon he's like huh i hope he gives you a call and writes you a check um guys uh what about dev patel i feel like this

is actually the logical choice there's there's no shortage of interesting, cool, enticing bond choices. They run this thing like a real political election. So, I mean, it's also a major gambling thing. I think people bet on it a lot in England. Who's winning right now? I don't know. Let's look it up in real time. Is there any chance that FanDuel has anything up at the moment?

I assume not. Here are some of the contenders. Regé-Jean Page. Ah, that has been up at the moment. I assume not. Here are some of the contenders. Rajay, Jean-Page. Ah, that has been much bandied about of late. Yeah, but that also, there is an, there's just like a media thing that happens where

that like must have been some. This happened in Idris many years ago, yes. And this happens like Richard Madden after Vicky or whatever. You know, someone, a young, handsome British guy breaks through and they're like, okay, now this person's going to be Bond and all the tabloids are going to run it for two weeks.

Tom Hardy, James Norton, and Henry Cavill. I have also heard a lot of Henry Cavill scuttle of late. Well, he read for Bond at the same time that Daniel Craig did, right? He was up for it, but then they were like, he's too young's too young respectfully he's really good or was really good in the Mission Impossible movies and that is where he should stay like listen he was Superman Amanda I know I was I was trying to point think of a nice way to say that charisma is not really the number one thing that I associate with Henry Cavill so he was very good in the Guy Ritchie I know as soon as I said I said it, I was like, oh, he was good. He was great in The Man from U.N.C.L.E. And I feel like that actually, I wished he had gone more in that direction in his career. So I wonder if there's

something to that. The time may have passed. I mean, you mentioned Richard Madden, too. He was another one who I think for a time made a lot of sense. You're right, Chris. There are a lot of options. We don't really know where they're going to go. Just final question before we get into our top fives. Is there a director that you would want to come in? Because for many years, there were these sort of stewards over the properties. You know, your Lewis Gilbert types who would come in and make these movies consistently. They've really broadened the field here. You know, before Fukunaga came in, it was Danny Boyle who was going to make No Time to Die.

And of course, Sam Mendes, one of the more celebrated filmmakers of the last 25 years. He's made two of these movies. Do you have a dream choice for a filmmaker either, you guys? Besides Schrader, I mean. So I would love for... This is real, just I'm playing straight to the Amanda seats. I would love for Peter Morgan to at least be the creative steward

of the movies. Because he obviously, he had sort of initially been the person working on Skyfall. And they think they used some elements of his script. And they said, I think the word on his work on that

was that he wanted it to go in more of a Le Carre sort of tradecraft direction rather than big set pieces. But crown's ending, looking for something to do. I know he's got a big Netflix deal. Respectfully, it shouldn't end. I think what I actually want him to do

is keep making the crown so that when Daniel Craig shows up as James Bond at the Olympics in 2012 2012 we can have that that that can be his connection but if he wants to write on the side i'm also open to it so yeah other than that though there's like a you know i mean there's no shortage of pretty impressive uh pretty impressive talents out there to helmet a director well i mean what i mean it's tough i wouldn't have been like i would love for sam endes to to direct bond movies i think that would be great based on it's ever anything sense yeah so with that in mind it's like yeah everything has changed now chloe xiao has a freaking marvel movie coming

out in a month i mean this is the whole playing field is open now anybody with the exception of maybe martin scorsese would probably take on a project like this. Right. Should we get Kenneth Branagh on the line? After he takes his victory lap with an Oscar? You know that he's thrown his name in the hat. I mean, everybody has. Quentin Tarantino. You know what I mean?

There's so many people who have done the dance with it. I'm trying to think of British writers that I find pretty interesting right now both in the TV world and in the feature world. There are a couple of obvious people who I think it's almost surprising that they haven't made one of these movies. Obviously, Matthew Vaughn

has been doing cosplay for these films with the Kingsman movies. I feel like there must have been a conversation about Paul Greengrass once upon a time. I mean, Joe Wright, obviously, I think is someone

who would probably fit these sorts of films. I would like a little bit more either sense of humor or a little bit more magnitude. And if you're going to get some magnitude, like what about Steve McQueen? Would Steve McQueen ever make a James Bond movie? He certainly was willing to make a crime thriller in Widows. I'm not sure this is so far afield from that kind of work. And what could someone like that bring?

I don't know. There's a lot of options out there. Hopefully they go for someone who from that kind of work. And what could someone like that bring? I don't know. There's a lot of options out there. Hopefully they go for someone who has creative point of view and isn't just going to be a shepherd. That's my hope. I agree. Okay.

Shall we do our top fives? Sure. Is there any other stuff from No Time to Die that you guys wanted to chat about? I don't know when we're going to get to talk about it again. I just want to say I thought- Favorite moments? Well, I thought Daniel Craig's performance was excellent.

I thought it was his best since... His second best after Skyfall as far as him in one of these movies. And I think to Chris's point that you only get him back if he's getting to do what he wants to do. I'm certain that he was like, I'd like a lot of emotions. I think Daniel Craig also a father of daughters. So that makes sense. But I thought he was fantastic.

And both in like, you know, the fun, the Anadarmis shootout scene where he's like, he's playing to the camera and in the more emotional stuff. I mean, he is like a good actor. He can act, which we'll discuss the other Bonds respectfully. But that makes a big difference. It really does. I also just, I thought Christoph Waltz kind of put Rami Malek to shame in terms of what you can do.

I gotta say, I thought Magnussen did too. Like Magnussen probably didn't have the, like his character was not significant enough to have been like the villain of the movie but his sort of preening State Department guy who flips is is very good I agree quite a quite a

quite a month for Billy Magnuson who is also appearing as young Polly Walnuts in the many saints of Newark so he's really coming up in the world okay let's take a quick break and then

we'll go to our top five. Okay. We're back. This was a little bit of a challenging mission for me, so to speak, because I'm not as well versed in all of these movies. There's still a handful that I've never seen before. Amanda, how did you find putting together your top five? I had a great time. I definitely was rewatching a lot of movies that I know I've seen before, but as I said, I couldn't really tell you the plot. And I do think really the first four for sure and maybe five Sean Connery Bond movies just play in my head in one loop almost like the way that I remember them is just that something was on TV and there's like Sean Connery and his like blue romper or Sean Connery with a different different woman you know it is like it's image focus and to an extent set piece focus. But I just guess this is my way of saying that Sean Connery was very important to me growing up.

So going back and being like, okay, so this is the one where they're attacking like Fort Knox. And this is the one where there is with like the big volcano lair that opens and you know some space antics and I'll be honest some of them even now after having re-watched I couldn't keep it all straight so some of it was just segmenting out okay which one do I actually like and which one when you put all of its parts together some of which I remember and some of which I don't actually holds up cohesively. I don't really think of Bond movies that way just in my own day-to-day life. It's more of an experience. But I enjoy all of them.

Some pretty funny stuff. Chris, do you have an encyclopedic memory of these movies or did you have to get familiar? So the early Connery ones yes then there's a blur of like um the thunderball never say never like transition to more but then connery comes back for diamonds but then there's so that stuff is like a little murkier but i know them as like one giant movie that is insane and then i could not remember the Dalton and Brosnan movies. So that's what I spent most of my time kind of refreshing my memory about. Yeah, I spent, I watched both of the Dalton movies

and a couple of the Brosnan movies as well. You know what struck me was these movies through the years are not as different as I thought that they were. I used to think of them as like somehow canonically, there being some sort of transition from Bond to Bond, but there really isn't, tonally. You know, I mean, there's a lot of debate

and discussion about, you know, is Brosnan significantly better than Dalton or, you know, what about when George Lazenby shows up for one or as far as like the actual films go, they're all kind of the same which is not to say that they're all the same in quality but the expectations and the presentation are all fairly

similar i think which is one of the reasons why ultimately the craig movie seemed so radical let's use that as an entree into um our number fives amanda i thought your number five was an interesting pick what's your number five so my number five, when I put this list together, by the way, I tried to be, you know, I tried to make an interesting list as opposed to just putting all Sean Connery and Daniel Craig movies, which I just do think are the best. Those are way the best bonds. Who's the best really depends on the day. But so I did it. This is my Pierce Brosnan pick and people

say, you know, like the bond that you grew up with or the bond that you saw when you were a certain age is like the bond for you. And I don't know if that's totally true because that would be Pierce Brosnan for me and he's not my bond. Uh, but it, there is kind of the bonds that are coming out once you're kind of a sentient person versus the ones that you revisit in the past. There's a distinction. So Pierce Brosnan does play an important role in my understanding of Bond. And I chose, I can never remember the name, Tomorrow Never Dies. And the reason I chose it was because this is the Rupert Murdoch one. And what they're doing, Jonathan Pryce is a media villain who is building a galactic, you know, satellite media empire with through which he can start World War Three between Britain and china and then be in charge of the world or

something and it's both like a i mean i mean that's what he wants to do as i understand it in a classic bond villain so it is like the stupid bond villain thing but i also find the specificities of his plan like to be very funny and sort of like a comment on a lot of media stuff. At one point, he like summons all of his deputies on like a giant zoom screen. And one person he's like, how's our software operation going? And someone's like, great. We released a new edition with a lot of bugs. So people will be updating forever. And I was like, cool, that is actually what's happening with all software in my life for like the rest of time. So to me, I guess it's a lot about the villain.

And I also think that Brosnan is more comfortable in this Bond movie than he is in GoldenEye, which is the first and I know most people's favorite. I never played GoldenEye the video game, so I don't care about it. And also

the tone of these movies is still a little weird. They don't know when to be really campy and when to be serious, but like sometimes they let Pierce Brosnan be just like a little brooding and hot and, and like sexy, frankly. And he seems a lot more comfortable in that than doing the one-liners. And so it's a better Brosnan to me. Frankly, his hair is too long in GoldenEye. That's my note. CR, you don't have a single Brosnan movie on your list. You out on Brosnan? More of a Mrs. Doubtfire guy?

I would argue that maybe the video games to come from his era are some of the most important, informative things that have ever happened to me. It's just playing GoldenEye while listening to Wu-Tang Clan late at night in Brooklyn. It's honestly chilling. That's almost more chilling

than the hair removal pre-swim meet visuals that we had earlier in the pod. I never actually did the hair removal part. Thanks for just doubling back on that. What's your number five, Chris? My number five is the Sicario Bond, License to Kill,

which is a Dalton, Timothy Dalton movie starring Robert Davi as a Colombian cocaine dealer, Benicio Del Toro. Of course you picked this one. I forgot about this. Yeah, this is,

Benicio is a henchman for him. It's just like Wayne Newton plays like a televangelist who's like telling a cult to buy drugs. It's like it is crazy. This one's goofy as hell. And this is a real like Bond is like quits the Secret Service to go like extrajudicial. And it's just nuts.

But I just thought I'd throw it in there because like we need a Dalton. And also like I enjoy the plot. Carrie Lowell plays a woman named Pam Bouvier, a DEA agent. It's just some of the best ones out. So, License to Kill, number five. Pam Bouvier. This is some real late 80s shit, which, again, makes sense that you would pick it.

When I rewatched it, I was like, this is like... It can be Sicario, but it's also like Miami Vice in not a good way, which it's the Chris Ryan special. Very much the case. I do not have a Dalton film on my list, but I do have a film

starring every other James Bond that we've had in the series so far. The first one, and I believe Amanda, this is your number four, so this dovetails nicely, is 1977's The Spy Who Loved Me, which is a Roger Moore, James Bond film

directed by Lewis Gilbert. This is, I think when I, in my mind's eye, see James Bond movie, this is what I see. Now I know Sean Connery is the most iconic Bond and probably the most beloved Bond kind of neck and neck with Daniel Craig. But this kind of a movie, which features one of those famous ski chases that you opened with Amanda, I think this is

the one that opens right where he sort of like skis off the mountain and he's flying through the air. And then all of a sudden we see his skis fly off and he turns upside down and then the parachute opens. The parachute, yeah. Yeah. And that one continuous shot. He pulls that move a lot where he's like, I'm doing one thing and then a parachute opens yes that shot is just amazing it's really cool and then throughout this movie it features a lot of that some of the more ridiculous and iconic aspects there's this is there's

the shark tank there's the Richard Kiel's Jaws characters in this film Barbara Bach who would go on to be Mrs. Ringo Starr is the Bond girl in this film she's very appealing Carly Simon's Nobody Does It Better is the theme song there's just a lot of things

that feel all of the component parts of a Bond movie feel like they're all happening inside of this movie I'm kind of neither here nor there on Roger Moore I feel like he had maybe two to three too many bites at the apple he made a lot of these movies but this one in particular I feel like is humming at the right frequency

for a fun Bond. So The Spy Who Loved Me is my number five and Amanda's number four. Yes. I think this is really the only Roger Moore movie that like stays with me. The rest of them are just a collection of someone, frankly,

who is really old playing Bond. And I can like say that about him and not because I was like 14 watching this. I'm like, who is this old playing Bond. And I can like say that about him and not because I was like 14 watching this. I'm like, who is this old man trying to run around and do these Bond movies? I don't understand what's going on here. So the age of the movie and the age of Roger Moore also shows a little bit in the other ones. But like Sean said, it's just this song, the ski. This is he also jet skis at one point, right?

Yes. And, you know, they're by land also jet skis at one point, right? Yes. And you know, they're by land, they're by sea, they're by air. There's, there's like a whole thing in, in Egypt for,

you know, no reason. Like, and, and then multiple sharks, jaws references. It's like overstuffed in the right way. I think like it's,

it's both enjoyable and parodying the the franchise at the same time yeah it's winking for sure chris quick question for you you saw the film black widow right yeah sure did were you aware of the fact that black widow in full borrowed its plot from the roger moore james bond filmraker. There's literally a direct... But it's not in space, right? It's all related. The satellites and what it is that the villain is trying to control there is all very Moonraker inspired.

This is a true story. I have to admit something. I can't remember what happens in Black Widow. I thought you were going to say Moonraker, which was at least 40 years ago. No, but who's the villain in Black Widow? It's kind of Rachel Weisz. who's the villain in black widow it's like kind of rachel vice who's the guy rachel vice then like turns becomes friends with them again right uh well it's an english actor who's playing a russian i'm trying to recall which actor it is ray winstone right

ray winstone yes of course that's right damn that just like flew out of the old memory box should we do a watch along for Black Widow? For David Harbour's sake, we should. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Chris, you're up to number four. Diamonds Are Forever.

I apologize. Diamonds Are Forever is a deplorable movie and opens with just grotesque sexual violence, features cloning, features scorpions, has a great theme song. Connery looks like shit in this movie. It's the movie where he came back. This is the 70s, right?

Like tan, but like packing like maybe 13 pounds of Hendrix gin weight like on his face. But I will say this. I first watched all these movies like in marathons on TBS. My mom reminded me the other day that I watched them like a bunch of them when I had chicken pox, the first,

you know, like, like when I was a kid. And so, uh, shout out to this movie for introducing me to some very adult themes. But this is, uh,

an almost fantastical movie. It kind of borders on Austin Powers at moments. It has my favorite villains. Let me find the name of these guys. One second, I forgot. The two dudes who are the killers in this Mr. Wint and Mr. Kid. We use Scorpion sometimes.

And there's a whole Howard Hughes plot of a guy like a reclusive figure who owns a casino and it's really bad like uh but i i like enjoy how gonzo it is um it's also one of the bond movies that spends the most time in the states which i think is a pretty funny experience to see bond in like reno and vegas and and like i think in texas if i remember correctly it's like a very like it's a fish out of water tale for him because usually he's going to these luxurious tropical locales and kind of just mastering everything immediately and drinking rum and in this one he seems a little bit like a british guy in the desert so it's kind of cool

i'm sure people are just gonna be like what the fuck are you talking about but i i remember this very fondly from my childhood. And also, this is sort of the kind of original text of what people kind of lampoon when they satirize Bond. That's a curious choice, I'll say. You think so? I respect your bravery. If we were putting this to a vote of who had the best top fives,

I wouldn't do it. Plus, I knew that we were going to have a lot of similarities at the top of our lists. Yeah, lists yeah i did a good job bouncing around it was a worthwhile move chris i i respect it um this is this is content this is one that a lot of people say is kind of inessential right because it just felt like a cash grab connery finally got compelled to come back to the franchise after being away from it for a while nevertheless um okay my number four is golden eye the, the aforementioned first Pierce Brosnan movie, which

probably is my introduction to Bond. This movie was released in 95. I was 13 when it came out. Directed by the great Martin Campbell, who also directed Casino Royale, one of the great kickoff filmmakers for this series. He kicked off the Brosnan era and kicked off the Craig era.

To your point, Chris, about adult themes, I'll say Famke Janssen changed me in this film. She plays a very, very violent, very sexually explicit kind of seductress slash assassin. This also features a fucking hilarious Alan Cumming performance as a worldwide hacker with an insane ego. I don't know if you remember that. And a Russian accent.

He's doing a lot. He's so over the top. Very enjoyable, though. This is a pretty fun movie. I think it's like all Bond movies. I feel like they're all two hours and 10 minutes. And with 15 minutes left, I was like, OK, I think I got it. And I felt that way revisiting a lot of these movies.

But it also features Sean Bean as like the kind of 006 who turns heel. This is the first time we see Judi Dench's M as Amanda pointed out before. It's just got a lot of great, fun little intermediate moments going on. And I think Brosnan is really great. I think he has that very deft combination of can deliver the shit eating line very accurately,

but also can do the real action. This features, I think, one of the more iconic images of Bond, which is Bond in the tank rolling down the street and brosnan in a suit like looking straight ahead while driving the tank so i golden eye is a fun movie i played some of the video game but not as much as chris the opening is pretty great when he jumps off the giant is it a dam what is it yeah i think it's a dam yeah um what's up with sean bean always being a rat you remember really like it's right around the ronin time too it's like and boromir

just he just fucked the whole game up right well what about in a game of thrones yeah he was good there yeah ned he was he was a good man right noble yeah lost his head for it yeah it's true maybe that that explains why he's he's always snaking around people's backs. Should we do a podcast devoted to Bean? A Bean pod? Beancast? Beancast. Mr. Bean? A 47-part podcast? How much does that work? Okay, Amanda, let's

go to your number three, which is also on my list and also on Chris's list. What is your number three? It's Goldfinger. Can you do it as Goldfinger? I thought about doing it and then you made me nervous i mean i've just been practicing singing another song that i i have been singing around the house for a couple days um it'll be later on the podcast yeah this is the one this is the i probably the quote i don't know best but kind of most famous and like most coherent of the conneries

and it introduces like everything that we know about connery from you know the car to the to q i think q is in this for the first time and um the the villain on a international crazy scale although i guess it's not international for us because it has to do with knox yeah because it's kentucky yeah yeah and i both don't understand i still don't understand like what exactly goldfinger is doing with the bomb in fort knox to mess up the gold so that his gold is more valuable but it doesn't really matter like gold's important and and and fort knox and like an otherwise sort of forgotten um institution that a crazy man is going to try to take over classic bond obviously pussy galore and the and the gold paint and i think probably just the this is the movie where the most pieces

of it have sort of like atomized and exist outside of the culture. And also like Connery still looks good. To Chris's point, it's before the however many pounds of gin. Yeah, this is I feel like him at the peak of his powers in a lot of ways. And it also that's it, Amanda. It's like this is the blueprint movie. It's amusing to go back to some of the older ones and just see where technological innovations just have negated the power of some of the villains.

It's like modern money theory just kind of wipes Goldfinger out. He's like, I have these bars. And it's like, dog, money printer go brr. We need the crypto bond movie. When's that coming? Jerome Powell's about to mint the trillion dollar coin, dog. We don't need to worry about bars.

Chris, this is your number three. What do you love about it? I think this was like a very iconic one. This and my number two are the ones that I kind of fell in love with the whole series over. And I think everything from two of the best villains I always thought that Goldfinger was really imposing but obviously Oddjob was too

even if he's a problematic character or problematic depiction of a character it was just very weird, you know what I mean? This guy with the hat Goldfinger in the pant also there was a thing that runs through all these Bond movies is essentially

soft confrontations between Bond and the villain. Yes, the golf sequence. The villain and Bond usually interact several times. Sometimes because Bond's pretending to be somebody else. Sometimes because he captures Bond but lets him go this time

or whatever. And I always liked those kinds of those chess matches between Bond and Blofeld or Bond and whoever throughout the movies. They became a little bit more intense as Craig got involved because, you know,

obviously you have like the Le Chiffre card game and everything. But for the most part, like it's much more physical and it was a little bit more psychological earlier on. This is a flaw though of No Time to Die.

Because even in all the other Craig films, you know, Matthew Almaric and Christoph Waltz, you feel like he is interacting with them more often. And, you know, in No Time to Die, it really waits until the end of the film.

Was he at like 30 seconds with that guy? Yeah. Yeah, they do have... I actually thought that that sequence was effective, that showdown that they have between the two of them when his daughter is present.

But I wish that there, frankly, was more of it um and there's no sense of humor in any of it which is obviously the opposite of goldfinger which like the every conversation between goldfinger and sean connery is verging on austin power's territory i mean it really is it's almost comic in its execution but really great fun movie um goldfinger is my number two. My number three is On Her Majesty's Secret Service, which I will admit, it was a first time watch for me this week. This is one that I ignored because it was the George Lazenby movie

that was sort of the interregnum between Connery coming back and Before Roger Moore Begins. Holy shit, I thought this movie was great. I had no idea what to expect. I couldn't believe how, and I'm not trying to just have an interesting opinion. I thought it was like seriously dynamically different

from any James Bond movies. It's directed by Peter R. Hunt, who did not direct any other films in the series. I thought Lazenby was pretty good as Bond, but what was amazing to me about it was one Diana Rigg is the Bond girl, the late great Diana Rigg, and she is wonderful in this movie.

She's also, you know, sometimes they'll cast a woman who's like way overqualified for one of these roles. I would say Lea Seydoux is another actress who is a little bit overqualified for her work as a Bond girl.

And it really shows and it elevates the movie. Tully Savalas is Blofeld, delightful. And the action in this movie, Chris, you and I have talked about this many times over the years, trying to like locate the origins of modern action. You know, about die hard once upon a time on the

rewatchables and trying to figure this out this movie the way this movie is cut which was made in 1969 looks like a modern movie yeah you know tons of angles and cross-cutting and quick cutting and moving the camera in weird places i never would have expected a movie made in the late 1960s to look and feel this way. I thought it was really cool. I really, I had a great time watching it and it was a pleasant surprise. So if people haven't seen that one, it might be worth checking out. I don't know a lot about Bond history, so I don't know what was going on with, I've never really read much about the Lazenby casting and whether or not that was always supposed to be a one-off or whether they didn't really know what to do with the series, Because there's also the strange relationship to

the Fleming books and should they be going back to Fleming and stuff. But I almost wonder whether or not we could get something like Majesty again, where they're like, well, we don't really know what we want to do with this long-term, but we don want to like let it sit for so long that people forget it exists so why don't we like make a cool one-off bond that actually has just stakes but stakes within the one film you don't have to wait for a payoff

five years later or something and that would maybe be the best case scenario of what's happening here you know it's one of you remind me Chris by saying that of one other thing about on Her Majesty's Secret Service and I don't want to spoil it for anybody but this movie is along with no time to die i think the only other bond film that has a true downbeat ending you know a true like i mean you can make the case that skyfall and we'll talk about skyfall there's a obviously a lot of reckoning going on there kind of both cultural nationalistic etc but

on her majesty's secret service is like a bum out when you get to the end of it. And the fact that Lazenby never made another Bond movie is fascinating. Nevertheless. You know who's a big fan of this movie? Soderbergh. Oh, of course. It makes so much sense. Back when he used to blog, remember those golden days? A long thing. And especially about, Sean, everything that you

mentioned about how it's cut and shot and the action sequences. But yeah, this is like a cult. There shot and the action sequences um but yeah this is like a cult there is a whole group of people for whom this is a cult favorite and so i read whenever its most recent anniversary was they interviewed plays and b and i just got the opinion that he just like really didn't care about being james bond or really anything else related to it and just like walked they even interviewed diana rigg and she's like, yeah, he didn't really seem particularly interested in me or the movie, which I mean, I guess that's a flex to not be interested in Diana Rigg.

But yeah, I mean, it would be cool. I don't want, let's not make Soderbergh clean up anybody else's messes again, but someone like that doing a one-off while they're figuring other things out would be cool. It's a fun idea. Okay, let's keep the list going. Amanda, what's your number two? So mine's Casino Royale, which I was surprised was not on either of your lists. Only to be faux interesting.

Me too. It would have been if we were trying to not just do all Craig movies. So, I mean, it's interesting now because I think, you know, I was more like pretending a defense or against of something else. And now I don't really know what to say. I think on the on the Internet, among the fans, this is often like the cult favorite. I remember

a lot of people were very mad when we did Skyfall for rewatchables instead of Casino Royale, to which I would say, number one, we don't pick rewatchables. And number two, I would say this movie is not shot by Roger Deakins. And also it has an action sequence at a bodies exhibit, but it just, it really does. Everyone forgets. It's just like an extended sequence at the bodies exhibit. Beyond that, I think it's pretty excellent. And I, you know, I feel, I feel bad in the first half of this podcast. I guess we had Craig fatigue and fatigue for this era, and it's always hard to end things. But I loved the Daniel Craig Bond era. And I discovered it, and I discovered James Bond at a younger age.

And Pierce Brosnan was the person that I kind of my introduction to the world of Sean Connery in this franchise but the the Daniel Craig franchise is when I was like oh look at the possibility and look what you can do with this kind of old outdated IP and and look what you can do with this character again when you have someone who can act. And I think it is interesting to say, what if we explored this person as a person and had ideas and didn't just do the same, you know, fun set pieces all over and over and over again, or that we could do more.

I think sometimes the more has not worked. See the last two movies. I think sometimes the more really does work in the case of Casino Royale and especially the best Berlin stuff. I mean, even there it's true. She comes up in every movie. They've just really been fogging it ever since,

but God, she just in the context of Casino Royale, she's, she's amazing in Casino Royale. I think, I think of her more like the way that the Marvel movies treat, like what happened in New York, as if that's something that it like emotionally resonates with the people who watched it. Like Vesper, sadly, is one of many Bond paramours who die, you know?

And like, so I was just like, right, so she's gone and that's too bad. But like when they were like still like he's visiting Vesper's grave, you know what I mean? No, it's true. I mean, it's like they did too much and they, you push everything too far, but I think this is the beginning and it's an experiment that like really lands. Probably the most awesome.

My favorite sequence in all of Bond movies is still the card game. Yeah. Even though the poker is not good. Right. I know Sean's about to be like, the poker is bad. I kind of, that was bait.

Yeah. Is it Chris? Is it Chris is it is it a good poker scene is it it's not no it's a it's a great movie though I like Casino Royale I don't like it as much as Skyfall I wouldn't be shocked if we did Casino Royale at some point on the rewatchables it certainly seems like something I mean

I also Bill has the same issues with the poker right he does not love the poker is that alone there you go disqualifies that film, but... Well, I just also, there's some content. Okay, CR, what's your number two?

From Russia With Love, along the same lines as Goldfinger, a classic Connery. This one is my trans-European spy fest. So this has just got great locales, great kind of

Soviet bloc, vaguely Soviet block villain rising out of the East. Some awesome stuff in Istanbul. Fantastic physical villain in Robert Shaw. And then great kind of more brains of the operation with the lady with the spike in her shoe. I can't remember what her name is hold on that was rosa klebb my bad shout out to rosa klebb she was scary uh but yeah this is this is the deeply romantic um kind of like len dighton bond for me the one that's like the most espionage-ish. Great pick. I watched this during early stages of

quarantine and almost jumped out of my chair when I saw that it was Robert Shaw. I think when I first saw this movie many, many years ago as a kid, I did not have the Jaws man for all seasons kind of Robert Shaw in my mind. I had just that guy being a Bond baddie, but it puts a whole

other i love when somebody who's just like i said way overqualified for one of these movies just shows up and you're like what the hell like what why are you because sometimes the person playing goldfinger or blow fell the ability like i never saw that guy again he never appeared in another movie and sometimes it turns out to be matthew almeric yeah it's just amazing how they'll do that sometimes okay um i already shared my number two which was goldfinger which means we're down to number one listeners of this podcast i'm sure can predict where we're going with number one but where are we going amanda i i mean bobby can you play however much of this song won't get us sued because i'm not going to sing it If you can do the end when she starts doing like Skyfall, you know, up, that would be great.

Again, I'm not going to try it because I'm not Adele. Yeah, it's Skyfall. I just have to say, honestly, I was very touched when I opened this document and saw that you both had also put Skyfall at number one. I was like, those guys put me through a lot, but this is why I stay friends with them. Because when it really counts, they'd know that Skyfall at number one. I was like, those guys put me through a lot, but this is why I stay friends with them because when it really counts, they'd know that Skyfall is number one. It's great to not be on this island. Saved it to the end.

Watched it again last night because I own it. If anybody ever needs to come see Skyfall, this movie rules. Were you inviting Chris and I or all listeners of the podcast? I mean, you guys to start

and then maybe once COVID, once we have things locked down there's like a system but i the two movies i own on on amazon which is what i use which is bad i'm sorry is um our skyfall and oceans 11 that's it that's what i own something wonderful about you buying skyfall and then james bond being bought by amazon i know you will never have to it's not it's still not like they're streaming for free, so. We've talked about Skyfall quite a bit in our time, including an entire episode of the Rewatchables. Chris, any remarks, any reflections,

especially in light of where No Time to Die took us? Best villain of the series, possibly one of the top four or five villains of the last like 30 years, Raul Silva played by Javier Bardem. You know, I will say that we were talking about the confrontation between Bond and Malick and how it was left a little wanting, although it wasn't bad per se.

It was a little overwrought, I thought, and also compressed. And I just think that the scene between Bond and Silva on the island where Bond's strapped to the chair, is the most transgressive, exotic, dramatic, well-written, awesome piece of acting in the series. And it's just, now they don't eat coconut, now they only eat rat. It's sort of like this amazing metaphor

for intelligence services and everything. It's just such a fantastic movie. I rewatched it recently and even the chubby parts where you're like, why is this happening? It still looks amazing and features something in it where you're like, well, that's okay. That's why I watched that part of the movie still.

Incredible Judi Dench. The entire ensemble is perfect. It's just the right amount of people. It's just the right amount of stakes. It's just the right amount of pathos. It's just a perfect Bond movie. Feels like Sam Mendes brought a veneer of respectability

to the franchise that allowed for Oscar nominee Naomi Harris to participate in this movie. Ralph Fiennes to participate in this movie. Oscar winner Javier Bardem to participate in this movie. Albert Finney to participate in this movie.bert finney to participate in this movie the late great helen mccrory like all of a sudden it felt like while casino royale is a lot

of fun and quantum solace has some great action this is it got harry potter where it's like all the all the good brit actors are like i'll cash in but i also get to be in this thing that like my kids love or like like people actually go see I'm reminded of an anecdote that doesn't really have an ending, but I'm going to share it anyway. I remember when I started working at GQ in 2011, one of the first photo shoots, or I guess a piece I had to sort of like do an edit and write captions on in the magazine

was a one pager on Berenice Marlowe, who is one of the Bond girls in this film. She plays Severineine Silva's assistant and mistress and I remember thinking oh wow this must be what it was like when like Kim Basinger hit the scene you know like someone who we're gonna see forever and that didn't really didn't really work out for Bernie she's the only person on this cast list is not massively famous right yeah the Severine is the one part of this it's it this. It's a tough part of the plot. She's the William Tell person, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sad. Not ideal. Not the way you want to end a podcast conversation about James Bond.

Any closing thoughts, Amanda, on James Bond? Well, to the point of Skyfall being our number one and then having to sit through two more Daniel Craig movies. Not having to, and I enjoyed them.

But, you know, if you want to talk about ending the movie or ending a franchise before you end it, it's Skyfall. It should have been his last movie. It is such a, and in a lot of ways just sets up an impossible task for all Bond movies to come because, as you said, it's all of the greatest actors and cinematographers in the world doing what is both the cinematic ideal of a bond movie and also a critique and an examination of what bond is and brings it to like a very natural conclusion and they were feeling around in the dark after skyfall it's it's a hard act to follow.

And it's hard not to watch No Time to Die and think, yes, okay, this is nice. We have some emotional resolution. But what I really think about Bond was wrapped up in Skyfall. But I don't know. Also, there are a lot of nice things to look at in No Time to Die. Ciara, if you could just say one thing to carry Joji Fukunaga before we go to my conversation with him, what is it that you would say? Just build back better with Nick Piz. Let's get this shit going.

True D. Season 4. Bring Rust back. Come on, man. Give the people what they want. Couldn't have said it better myself. Amanda, Chris, thank you guys. Now let's go to my conversation with the great Cary Joji Fukunaga. Delighted to have Cary Joji Fukunaga on the show.

Cary, thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me. Cary, you're having a fascinating career. And I must admit, I'm completely unable to predict how you're going to pick your next project. I'm wondering, more than anything else, what made you want to direct a Bond movie? That's a good question. I had spoken to Barbara right after Spectre came out. And Daniel had made

it clear he would never do a Bond film. And I think the idea of rebooting it and reinventing it was attractive to me. Uh, I really loved Casino Royale and I loved how Martin Campbell completely shook it up with Daniel, uh, from what they had done on the previous, you know, reboot with, with Pierce. And, um, um, that sort of creative carte blanche to, to, to, to reinvent it was, you know, the same way Nolan had reinvented Batman seemed like a cool, a cool, you know, prospect, but then, you know, the film never really happened and a few years went by.

And then I found out that the Danny Boyle was dropping off a project. So I just reached out to Barbara again and just said, hey, I don't know what you guys are doing right now or what's going on, but if I'm still in consideration, can we have a meeting? And that just led to a meeting at the house and we were off from there. But if you're asking me why, the why of choosing something, I don't know if I always am so aware of the whys in that particular moment. Also, I just think when the opportunity for something like Bond comes around, do you have

to really think that hard about it? I don't know. I'm curious. I mean, I think every filmmaker, every artist is probably different, but some people have like a clarion call or like a checklist for the kinds of movies that they want to make but it it feels like you are you're flowing more than yeah yeah i wish i had that kind of like notes app checklist like okay you know like the tangible you know path towards uh uh creative satisfaction by completing those you know check marks but um no it's it's much more fluid so how do you sort of reset the trajectory you you mentioned that you like the idea of rebooting but obviously you're doing something quite different this being craig's you know announcement this would be like likely the last time he's going to portray bond so what does that mean for your conception of

the movie well it's yes and it's obviously a very different task in this version than i think what was attractive actually about it is the opportunity to to to create a final chapter and the reason why i think that's exciting is that i think where people when they're making whether it's a novel or a tv series or a movie often the the hardest part to land is the ending you know like it's pretty easy to create intriguing beginnings, but to make a satisfying, surprising, refreshing ending is, I think it's rare. And especially given that Piscina Royale is my favorite Bond film,

I think making something that was a mirror to that film was also attractive, but it was a different hat. It was, it wasn't, like you said, it's not a reboot hat. It's a, it's a kind of like,

it's almost like acting. You know, I have to put myself into the space of the movies that have already existed and trying to figure out, you know, what is this tone and how do I get lockstep with what's been done before and make something that feels like it's of the same, you know, cut from the same fabric, but at the same time, like I said, fresh and new and satisfying. What do you think Barbara saw in you that made her want you to make one of these movies? Maybe she saw youthful enthusiasm and stamina because these things are beasts. And I remember reading Sam Mendes saying that about how he felt after Skyfall, but now I

understand it. And there is nothing like the thrill of working on these things but you are working seven days a week and that's not an exaggeration and you are working so much that you barely have time to sleep you're just basically getting home crawling into bed and then getting back out of bed in the morning and going straight back to Pinewood or wherever you're at to crush the next time. Are you that kind of a filmmaker or are you a little bit more deliberate and pensive when you're making something well there was no time on this one to be that way and there hasn't been time on the last few uh my first film was a lot more deliberate and and thought out and i was able to workshop it at the song dance labs and you know and beast of no nation was written many years before and i had i knew the shots I wanted to do far ahead of time.

But these last few projects have felt much more having to, you know, not necessarily be on your heels, but definitely be improvisational and pivotable. So there's a flexibility there and a sort of working on the fly thing happening. What do you think that's about? Is that something about the industry or just the choices that you're making, or is it something changing in the way that productions are happening in the business? I think it's a mix of several things. You know, it's certainly not a desire to work that way. You know, it's just,

it comes out of necessity sometimes and it comes out of how the industry is changing and what the expectations are for the budgets they're giving us. There's definitely a pressure to deliver more for a lower price tag. And that puts the pressure on everyone else, especially on the hours you're putting in. So you get the call to direct No Time to Die officially. What's the first phone call that you make? I called my dad and I said hey guess what you know i'm gonna do the next bond film and his first response was why would you do that what did you tell him i was like oh my god okay i'm like craig castell my agent i've been with them for 15 years

and he knows my dad very well you know from the very first festival we went to. And I'm like, Craig, can you just, and Craig's a major fan boy, by the way. And so when that happened, I'm like, Craig, can you just explain to my dad why this is a good thing? I think my dad, you know, having, you know, heard me talk about projects and, you know, wanting to do independent, creatively free projects, didn't understand why I'd want to do a tentpole film. But I think now he does. He was at the premiere, and I think now he understands. There's this talk of former U.S. presidents have a kind of president's club

where they kind of gather and talk about their experiences and what they learned and the state of the nation. Is there anything like that for Bond filmmakers? Did you seek counsel from anybody who had made any of these movies? Well, I mean, there's obviously a lot of continuity in the crew and heads department. So I definitely leaned on them for advice, but no, I didn't talk to any of the previous directors. I probably should have. Well, I mean, I wonder if like not knowing anything in a way makes it more exciting or more fun for you.

Yeah, and you don't want to be too prescriptive in your approach to things. And I do think everyone's experience on a film is unique, especially just their perspective on the world. So as much as you can glean interesting information from other directors and stuff it's really a it is a solitary and and idiosyncratic path did you reflect on or even care about the idea of being the first american-born director on an eon produced bond film i mean i didn't learn that fact until much much later in the project and and no it didn't didn't really occur to me did did anyone someone have to make you aware of it how does that even come to light then if you're unaware did english people say you're so american honestly i'm curious yeah uh well you know i did uh jane eyre as well about eight or nine years before i did a bond and i i

definitely felt that was a crash course in english culture uh and uh you know i took it on and took it very seriously. One of my favorite observations from that film was we were shooting up in the Peak District in Northern England in a really protected area because these birds were nesting there. And so we can only bring eight crew members, eight of the most essential crew members out onto this moor to shoot. And of course, we had our DP, we had me our sound guy our camera assistant i think we had one grip and then two people to take care of tea like no joke that's not that's not even a joke that really happened and so that's that was uh

you know my introduction to british culture but um this project you, it's a pretty big mix of English and American, and actually a lot of French and other international participants. So it's an international endeavor, despite it being a very iconic English character. You're well known for bravura sequences, and Bond movies are obviously legendary for the set pieces. Have you been backpocketing any moves or concepts in the event that you were going to take on a film like this no not at all i mean i've never really thought about you know as a kind of like bag of tricks i like to employ later i've never really looked at you know that i have you know i do sort of keep characters that have been cut out of stories or

kind of uh situations i might find interesting but, but nothing like a set piece or an action sequence or anything like that. Can you walk me through just what the design is for a movie like this? Say the opening set piece in No Time to Die, what kind of work goes into that and how is it conceived and executed? Interesting. So I knew how I wanted our villain to approach the home and the feel there and then in terms of like designing the home sometimes i have ideas in my head when i'm writing or or kind of conceiving something of what the architectural space might

look like and sometimes it's more generic um you know working with mark tildesley the production designer a lot of our our work was based on paintings or photographs or things that he would bring a sort of a mood board for a place and then or or lena sangrain would have images as well i'm like oh this would be really nice for the sequence you know i remember him bringing these images of like this red light and blue light for what we ended up doing on the the shrimper you know off of cuba and for for for the norway sequence um there was a um this beautiful film trying to remember the name of it of this underwater uh diver and so that kind of inspired kind of a tone there underwater under the ice diver this amazing lady from um somewhere in the baltics i remember the name of the film but um yeah she was she was really helpful too just

kind of the research side of this on how to approach some of the cinematography too i love that opening sequence and it feels like a real subversion of our expectations when you open a film like this we think we're going to get some sort of parachuting off of a cliff kind of a moment but you do also have kind of some of those classical motorcycle chases and things that we know from those films. What about those? Is there anything that is programmatic or that you feel like you have to meet the expectations of the viewer when you're trying to execute on a shootout or something along those lines?

Yeah, I think if you think about the opening of Matera, we're using a classic Bond car that has always had gadgets and things that it's done. So it's like, okay, so that's because there's an expectation we're going to use that. How is it going to be used? And is it going to be, you know, for kind of campy laughs? Or is it going to be for, you know, dramatic flair? Or is it going to be, you know, integrated into the storyline? And I think you can play, you know, depending on where you're at in the story with all those things, even in one film. In this case, though, because I felt like we needed to do a lot

of work on the Madeline Swan, James Bond relationship, that we're in a much more earnestly dramatic part of the story. And therefore, if we're going to use these devices, let's take them seriously and not just have, you know, exploding fruit stands just because that's the expectation of a car chase, you knowowing through you know a market what was the most difficult of all the sequences to pull off i think the most difficult simply because of uh the obstructions was was cuba and that was because that was scheduled to be shot right after Jamaica. And we, as is known in the news, Daniel got injured. So suddenly, you know, we weren't able to shoot as you normally would, which is construct a scene, figure out the angles and start, you know, kind of like marking them off. This time we had to shoot without Daniel because Ana de Armas had a very small window to work with us.

So we had to get her shot out, essentially. We did get her for a few more days later on in the production, but that was more out of fortune than planned. So it was the weirdest thing I've ever had to do, which was figure out how to shoot a scene without our main guy and use a double for over the shoulders or for action shots where I didn't need to see his face and then save all the stuff we needed for Daniel to a much later date when we could get back to those

set pieces and shoot it as if we'd been shooting it as one so the division of it was so out of the norm for me in terms of how i plan things and like to shoot things that it was um it was like doing half of a jigsaw puzzle uh but like a jigsaw puzzle where you can't even put the pieces right next to each other it's like little pieces that gotta line up without the connective tissue what's it like having to sort of like revise or reconceive a scene or moment on the day i feel like in a movie like this you kind of have to be more flexible than something like sinombre like how does that feel to be kind of reimagining something, you know, hundreds of people are working on in real time?

I think that it's actually more the case that you don't reimagine on a production this big. You know, a production this big becomes more like a Titanic, right? That can't nimbly go around an iceberg versus a smaller boat, which can't. The movies like Sin and the Marine Beasts are constantly having to adapt to the constraints of being a small film without money. And then on a Bond thing, you're having to,

you have hundreds of people in multiple units working at the same time, and there needs to be a continuity of orders and not confusion around changing or pivoting unless there's a crisis. And of course, crisis happen daily. but when it comes to the creative decisions and, and seeing an opportunity to do something better, um, that does get, you know, chaotic in the, in the moment, but eventually, you know, people figure it out and start doing the job. And a good

example of that, I think would probably be like, um, I'm trying to think of a sequence we did where we kind of, oh yeah, perfect example in Jamaica. Bond and Felix's first meeting was supposed to happen in a barbershop initially. And we had this gag with like a fish delivery, which was like code words and things like that. And at the last minute, I think we lost our location and suddenly couldn't shoot there. And we're just going to do it outside. And I was like, no, no, let's do something else. Let's have Bond be tailed and have him go the wrong way through some traffic and do some kind of fun thing with the car so he traps Felix. And so Lee Morrison, who's our stunt coordinator, especially for all of our vehicle stunts, got the word friday evening that i wanted to change how we're doing this and by because we're shooting sunday

so in 36 hours put together you know with local local drivers because you know all the cars that are on the road are our drivers it's not just regular people from the public but they are from the public they're locals you know they don't necessarily do this professionally mixed with his stunt guys mixed with daniel right in the middle you know creating a pretty um um seemingly basic but logistically challenging stunt in 36 hours and that was the beginning of our shoot i think that's when barbara and michael were like oh boy are you always gonna like have this idea you know a day and a half before doing we're doing these things but um i'm happy we did it that way just you know it felt like you know bond doing his thing and being good at it and it was it was to me it was the right choice in that moment and it made it you know that much richer to be able to be on the streets of port antonio and and get a little bit of the

local texture before you know being propelled to another part of the the world i'm curious about daniel's participation, not just in something like that, but in general, obviously, it's coming to be quite iconic. He's got a kind of funny, plain-spoken approach to his iconography, I feel like. What do you have to do when you come on

as a filmmaker on this series? Do you have to have a long meeting with him and discuss the direction that you want to take this? Is he more of a soldier and is just like, tell me where to go and I'll do this 36 hour change? You know, Daniel is far more experienced in this than I am. And so, you know, a lot of these would be discussions, but also, I mean, if it was something like that, he was down for it because that's, I think that's probably fun. You know, he gets to like, it's far more interesting than being in a barber's chair.

You know, I think he does, he does enjoy, you know, the vehicles and that part of, you know, being a boy with the toys, you know,

I'm assuming that by the way, you'd have to ask him how he feels, but you know, in general, I mean, he was a producer on this film and we, we sat at the table together with Barbara and Michael and we're hammering out these story points. So he's, he's very much a part of the process and very much the voice of Bond. And actually, having played Bond for be here, I want to be here, I'd heard of Matera and I knew

that the stories are like, oh, you go to Matera and sleep in a cave. But I'd never really seen it or spent much time there. So as soon as I saw images, I was like, this is cool. This is unique. And I could see this in the Bond world very easily. Jamaica was something that Barbara really wanted to do because it had been basically 60 years since Dr. No and going back to Ian Fleming's birthplace and because Bond had retired, it just seemed like the appropriate place to go, especially since Ian spent so much time there after the war. That was his sort of retirement from the service. So those kinds of places were a little bit from the outside and then other places were just completely inspired through

the context of the story and like where that started to take us. You mentioned the casino is your favorite. Were you entrenched in bond lore growing up or are you a late arriving to the, to the culture? I think I was always a, you know, a fan of the films that I've pretty much seen all of them even before casino. But,

uh, um, in terms of being like an adult, like engaged and committed fan, Casino brought me back into the franchise. It brought me back to being a viewer and a fan. I think I sort of started to drift away from it towards the end of Pierce Brosnan's tenure.

And I think a lot of that was due to the tone and the execution of the film. I feel like in your previous work, there was this real sense of auteur ownership and naturally being a part of a franchise, especially one like this, there's a sense of giving up some control or having fealty to the property in some way. Did you have to tangle with that at all as you were deciding whether or not to do it and even during the production or are you just like i will give myself over to this thing because it's bond um i think that i mean a commitment to the job or a commitment to the the um the price you pay to doing a job, especially in filmmaking,

it's hard for anyone to understand who's not in it. And it goes on a creative level as much as it does just on a day-to-day living your life level. And I think that in this one, I don't think I realized before I went into it how all-encompassing it would be. It's really hard to anticipate those things before having done it.

But I don't think I ever hesitated. No part of me was on the diving board and was like, oh, I'm not sure about this. It was just in it from the first meetings. We're in a very strange time in cinema history, and and no time to die is become kind of a symbol. Have your expectations or your definition for success on this movie changed just given, you know, all of the waiting and delaying that has been going on in the world. Yeah.

I think, you know, in my conversations with the filmmakers and the conversations, you know, with friends, not so much with the producers or the, you know, the people who decided how this

movie will be rolled out i think it's always been well you know if it doesn't do well it's not your fault it's covid you know it's not like you destroyed the franchise you know by this god awful film um so no one's trying to say that to you what's that no one's gonna say that to you all right so that was them saying it's a god-awful film and therefore it doesn't do well no but i mean it was like it was kind of trying to release yourself with the pressure of performing financially uh in a time when cinemas aren't even open to full capacity in most places in the world or not even open at all in some places and you know especially in earlier points when the movie was going to come out there was all kinds of uncertainty about whether it would ever come out in cinemas. Maybe it would only be a platform streaming release

or a pay-per-view, which would be unprecedented for a Bond film, but also we were living in unprecedented times. So anything was possible. And I think now that it is out and it's come out in certain territories and will be coming out in America this weekend, now there's the pressure that it's doing well here.

Will it do well there? Will it do well here? And will people like it as much? Or is it just because it's such a British thing that, that for, for, for people from Great Britain, that they would show up anyway.

And maybe here it won't be as, won't be as, as hot, but, you know, I'm just trying trying not to think about those things because it's out of my control now. I finished the movie a year and a half ago and whether people like it or don't like it,

I know what I sacrificed and what creativity and effort went into this to make it the best it could be in terms of my abilities and capacities of that time period. And so I am proud of what we did and I'm satisfied with what we got with it. And I'm just trying to be, just experience it. I hope this doesn't seem obtuse, but how do you know if people liked your movie? I think obviously there's going to be people who don't like it, that's given. But how do you know if in don't like it. That's a given. But how do you know if in general people like it?

Well, you have critical reviews. Will you look at that? Not closely. I have in the past. What happens in the past is you just ignore the good reviews and just look at the bad reviews. And it's not really very healthy. So this time I've, I've avoided reading any reviews,

um, and, uh, you know, whatever messages I get, you know, I try to ignore those as well. So,

so it's hard to know. It's hard to know. I think, I think box office will be an indicator. I think how it performs, uh, based on, you know,

other films in this time period, but also how it performs against other historical films. So that would give an indication, right? After the completion of a Bond film, do you have the urge to make a small domestic drama or like what happens now? A year and a half ago, I was eyeing doing a potentially an F. Scott Fitzgerald adaptation down in the South of France. And I guess the idea of being in the South of France in the fall seemed really attractive to me then. Right now, I'm in the middle of doing another television series in London. So I've been living in the UK for eight months and it's massive, hundreds of people every day on airfields and things like that. And I,

and I asked myself, why did I choose another, another thing where each take takes 20 or 30 minutes to set up because you have so many people in the shot. but, uh, uh, I keep telling myself one day I'm going to do something with two people in a

cafe, uh, looking forward to it. You should give yourself a break, Carrie. Yeah. Carrie, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen i'm curious if you've seen anything cool lately um the last great thing i've seen i saw this documentary um at um the cinemas in hackney about truffle hunters but yeah yeah the the truffle

hunters isn't that what it's called i mean i it made me want to go out and eat truffles right after i and there's nothing we're in white truffle season we're about to hit it so i'm very excited to uh to eat some some truffles but that was just just a beautifully done and shot and humorous and poignant look into that world. That's a great recommendation. Kerry, congrats on No Time to Die. Thanks for doing this. All right, thanks for having me.

Thank you to Kerry Joji Fukunaga. Thank you to Chris Ryan. Thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins. And thank you to our Joji Fukunaga. Thank you to Chris Ryan. Thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins. And thank you to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on this episode. Next week on The Big Picture, we are drafting again. We're drafting from the year, mark it down, folks, 1998.

And as I was compiling the list of movies from 1998, my head exploded. 1998. And as I was compiling the list of movies from 1998, my head exploded because there are so many good movies in this year. Amanda, you excited? I am. Ciara, you excited? I am, but I also stopped my recorder. Well, then this has been a botched outro. We'll see you next week. Sorry, I thought you were just going to say we were produced by Bob.