The Big Picture - ‘One Battle After Another’: A Second Opinion With Van Lathan

Episode Date: October 5, 2025

On a very special bonus episode of the podcast, Van Lathan joins the show and gets the chance to share his perspective on the box office debate for ‘One Battle After Another’, share his overall thoughts on the film, and comment on its portrayal and depiction of Black women. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Van Lathan Producer: Jack Sanders Unlock an extra $250 at linkedin.com/thebigpicture Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennacy, and this is the big picture. You are getting a very special conversation episode. We were making an episode earlier this week about the smashing machine. Van Lathen was here, Amanda was here, and we were excited to talk about that movie. But we were also excited to talk because Van and I have been having private conversations over the last two weeks or so about one battle after another. What does one battle after another mean? What does it mean to the box office? What does it mean to culture at large?

What does it mean about representation? And we got off, as we often do when Van is on the show, on a long tangent and a deep, I thought very thoughtful exploration of a lot of the ideas that are packed inside the movie and externally in the film-going culture right now. So we've decided to just make this its own episode. Van is always a very special guest,

but this was a uniquely fun and deep conversation that the three of us were able to have. So I hope you will enjoy it. I hope you will receive it in good faith. I hope you will understand that we're trying to explore something that is sometimes very complicated and dicey, representation-wise, intellectually, emotionally, and especially for me, for a movie that I care about so, so, so deeply.

So I hope you enjoy this deep excursion into the internal and external worlds of one battle after another with Van Lathen. This episode is presented by LinkedIn ads. Sometimes marketing gets wasted on the wrong people, Like if you see an ad for movie-themed dog sweaters when you don't even have a pet. Reach exactly who you need with LinkedIn ads with a network of 130 million decision makers they can help you target by job title, industry, company size, or even skills. It's one of the reasons LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks.

Seriously, all of them. Try it out. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash the big picture. Terms and conditions apply. A movie that has been hotly tabbed for the Academy Awards is one battle after another. Oh, here we do it.

Oh, yeah. So it's been a long road to this conversation. A long world doing like that. Yeah. Up and down the Barrio Springs Hills. Long road doing like that. We have both alluded to on our podcasts, the conversation that we had,

the conversations you've been having, sure um i wanted you to be able to express what you were what you were saying in the run until the release in the movie and also i want to hear what you think about the movie and and and how you feel about what you were expressing in the aftermath all right film bros i come in peace i come in peace um this is what i was expressing and i do understand both sides of this argument is um particularly being in a place where you're trying to create films and get films out there, first let me go back to just me, period, because those are just opinions from me. I am all about the have-not creator, all about the person that doesn't have what they need.

And how does the person that doesn't have what they need, how do they get a chance to talk? How do they get a chance to, I am at this point in my career, not really that person. Like I know a lot of different people. I can get my opinions out. I can do what I need to do to make the stuff that I need to make. But there are a lot of people who can't. And these stories that these people are trying to tell are just so important to them.

I mean, if you ever sit down with someone who has a script or has an idea and they sit in front of you with this full understanding of the weight of what their life has been and what their artistic expression is, and then you have to explain to them, okay, well, this is what we have to do. then you take them to a meeting where they go you need to put a rapper in your movie

or you need to follow it through this person's and you just watch slowly as the life gets sucked out of this person and as their thing that they had become something else but they want to see it it's tough being on that side of it right and it's people go

we give you three and just for movies like this we need to know that you can make five or six and you're million you mean million dollars right and that's not across the board there are plenty of films getting made by plenty of amazing director

and people are making them for the art it's still happening then there's this other side and I think this is something that's both a reaction to some of the filmmaking that's happened in the last 10 or 15 years and also an appreciation of some of the filmmakers

to where gigantic budgets are being given to people that we know are amazing filmmakers. And these films don't have any of those same constraints. There are people on the other end of this that are going, Van, they earn that. You're right. They earned it.

How are you going to sit down and talk to the director of, talk about the director of the master and then talk about how much money he should be given to make a movie? It's a silly thing to do. But somebody has to do it. And the reason why I'm saying, is I'm not talking about the budget itself. I'm talking about the idea that the film doesn't have to be profitable or the idea that the movie, there's one part of the equation that it just

doesn't have to meet. To me, the health of the industry for the smaller filmmaker denotes that someone should say, hey, everyone should have to at least care to a degree about the fiscal responsibility of the movies that they're making. because they're asking the smaller filmmakers to do that and their pension pennies when they give them money. Even sinners. Senators comes out. Senors, fuck before the movie.

He gets $90 million to make it. Forget about before the movie. The movie actually opens. It opens big. And the immediate conversation was, okay, this is a big opening, but look how much further this film has to go to attain profitability.

Now, there's a whole audience of people that honestly did not care whether or not sinners made money at all because it was a cultural celebration of who they were. And it seemed as if the town was directly saying, yeah, but this is going to significantly alter and change filmmaking if this movie doesn't make money. And so everybody went, fuck it, we're going to see it, right? Over and over and over and over again

because we need to see more films like this way. People just like it. They liked it, the word of mouth was crazy. Right? I saw that bitch four times. And that was because it was also because of that. He sold me on the codec shit. The 10-minute code act thing, I had to see the movies.

It's related to what we're discussing here. Right. This film comes out, 170. The tracking says 22. And all I said was, nah, it needs to make money. And the reason why I'm saying it is just me trying to keep the same energy, even amongst the geniuses. I've had so many conversations with so many people that I respect about this.

there were some filmmakers or people that I know that reached out prominent ones and said what you said is true and then there were others that said let me explain to you why what you're talking about is actually not the way to look at it. I respect both both schools of thought.

The only thing that I'm saying is that like there still has to be someone who is saying that and I guess this is what I'm saying. That the responsibility both creatively

and financially for a piece of art has to exist with the haves and the have-nots alike. That's all that I was trying to say. I think it's a reasonable thing to be asking for

that is unrealistic to expect. Okay. Well, I think that I agree with... I agree with you, but also it leads me to a different conclusion, which is really our experience in life. Okay. Which is just like that the commodification of art produces inequality and bummer outcomes that disproportionately affect, you know, people without resources, people starting out, people who don't make art, who haven't made a ton of art, and then who thus, because they have to get fed in a system to make their art

don't get to make it the way that they want. That sucks. That's bad. I think, and I wish that that were not the case. I think that this is an example of someone using money and the commodification of art to their own goals. Because PTA escaped the system for whatever reason, I don't think he should be punished. I think we should celebrate that and be like

he got a ton of money from a corporation that we don't like very much to do whatever he wants and more people should get to do that. And to Sean's point, you're right that it's more people are not going to get to do that and it's unfair.

But I don't want to punish him. I don't want to celebrate the corporation. I don't want to celebrate the, I want to celebrate the fact that someone is getting to use the money to do what they want and say we should like more people should get to do that.

But that's not, that's like that's a fancy land that's not going to happen. I agree with you. And this is where I have to be the bummer. I mean, so let's go ahead and inject race. Of course. Yeah. It's a white filmmaker. I get it. And so not just white filmmaker, but like also man. Sure.

So the bummer of it is that in the movies that PTA has made, right, like all of these films, these are highly artistic, very ambitious movies. And they are accepted and lauded because a lot of times they don't need to be culturally translated. So if you have a certain filmmaking understanding, you get punched up glove, you get the mask, or you get inherent vice, you get these movies, right? A lot of our filmmakers and a lot of our films, black people and women and queer filmmakers, their magnum opuses aren't received the same way. So the question is, how are they going to become PTA? What do you mean by that? Meaning that...

I don't know if I agree with that. Meaning that the guy who just made... The guy who made Mobetta Blues has never gotten a $170 million budget. The guy who made Malcolm X and do the right thing and bamboozled and those... That guy never got a $170 million budget. That, I mean, that guy just put a movie out a couple of weeks ago

that opened in two cities was made for like $15 or $20 million. No, no, no, no. What was it made for? No. The lowest is made for a lot more money. Okay, what was it made for? If it's under 50, I'll be stunned. Okay, 50.

I'll be stunned. Action set pieces, Denzel, paycheck. Well, I can be honest with you, that'd just look like it. A lot of people turning off highest to lowest after 40 minutes, which I understand why, but they're missing, you know, once again, the apple of it all. So all I'll say, I think the 170 is what's got, and if it is 170, whatever it is, whatever it is. that feels new and big. That's a really big number

for a filmmaker who's never made a movie that has made more than $75 million. What I was trying to say when I was talking about earlier this week is this is just a major anomaly. Real quick. And you were right about that.

This does not happen every week with white filmmakers. It doesn't. Unless it's IP. Right. It doesn't happen every week with white filmmakers. And you explain to me the reasons

why it happened. And then I accept those. But what I'm trying to say is that the ability for Coogler to even get to the point to where he could say, I want $90 million to make this specific cultural film that I want to make that sets of- And I want the rights. Yeah. He had to make billions of dollars at the box office. You're right.

Billions of dollars. We are completely line on. And then even after his movie opened, they said, still counted as money. Yeah. And so when, when I say, all right, well, maybe that should also exist for the guy who made, who is my favorite filmmaker, who made The Master. Yeah.

Like, maybe that's it. People are, shut up your, I'm like, I'm really just saying, does anybody see what's happening? Like, does anyone see what's going on? You know, the, the whole sinner's box office, like, discourse, like, was a nightmare. But the whole town shot it down if I'm being honest. like there were a bunch of people came out that were Watts like yourselves that were like

why are we talking about this? It was one of the most bad faith planted arguments to the trades it was coming in almost entirely from the trades and it was either competing executives who were trying to avoid what Kula was able to get or executives at Warner Brothers

who were like let's make sure that this guy doesn't get too comfortable with what we gave him in this scenario we can speculate in either direction That was, that conversation sucked him as stupid. And also we've seen every Ryan Coogler movie. He makes crowd-pleasing movies that people want to go see. Yeah. But it's also, I think those same bad faith people are also the bad faith people being like,

well, this didn't make enough money and this is a fail, you know, they're the bean counters. And I just, you know, I don't want you to be a bean counter. I'm not a bean counter. The movies that I loved coming up, I was able to make a movie with Boy Asher King. fresh Me Vita Loka Like the films that really In the 90s that

I mean there were some Obviously there were some big ones too I These films weren't What was the one with You guys will remember it I love this movie I can't remember the name of

Was it the Dreamers with With Michael Pitt Oh yeah The Bernardo Berto Lucci movie Yeah yeah yeah Those are the joints that like I used to sit in Segan Lane Theater Avivoreen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Prostetics. No, those are real. Why we can talk about the differences. Those are the movies that would, that deepened my love for film. Punch Drunk love.

Me too. Like, those are the films. And so I'm, so box office is not a concern with how I view a movie outside of the Marvel films, which are amusement park rides and there's so much money spent on that they need to make. Let me, let me ask you a question. Okay. This idea that you're presenting and that you're the watcher on the wall for this, you know, it's like keep the same energy for both movies for when it's one situation versus another.

Are you talking to, do you feel that you are talking to movie studio executives? Do you feel that you are talking to fans on social media? Do you feel you are talking to white critics and film bros? Like, who are you communicating this to? Because that's the thing that I was trying to unpack. Are you speaking to Sean and Amanda? That's viable. You could just call me.

You're right here. I know. That's a really good question. And the answer is kind of everyone. Okay. Okay. I'm speaking to everyone for different reasons. I'm trying to call attention to the fact that there is a couple of different standards.

And your movie that you think is the greatest movie objectively, like I show the master to people, And I've told them that this is one of the best films, maybe the best film of the decade. And they've gotten an hour into it and it'd be like, yo, this dude is drinking Lysaw. What the fuck are you talking about? Like, what, like, what is this? And your movie that you think is like the greatest movie,

there is someone who doesn't get it. And other films, like, that there, it's, so your, the criteria of who should be rewarded and then not expected to, be financially viable, even that is totally subjective, right? So your genius is somebody else is, hey, I don't get it. And somebody else is, hey, I don't get it, is a genius to someone. So there is no, but van, it's PTA.

I agree with you. But I'm trying to tell you that if we're talking in the sense of just dollars, then that's not really a criteria right there. I would love to see him get as much money. but also I am just having the conversation and letting people know that like there are people who I think are really, really deserving

of being able to tell their stories in grand, amazing ways and no one fucking cares about them. Yeah, because there's not a proven path to them making money. Because you have to come with the marketing deck. You have to come with the sales numbers. You know what I'm saying?

No one fucking cares about them. and part of me ruffling feathers is just to have that conversation. Now, talk to Sean, talk to Jack Sanders. Jack was a warrior. Jack went to war. Talk to everyone. I get it.

I get it. You never come to me. Well, we talk about different things, though. Oh, that's true. Yeah, we talk about different things. I get it. But also, Amanda finishes recording, and she books out of the office.

She's like, I am not staying here today. I stay in the office. She's the Rachel Lindsay of the big picture. She's gone. But I totally accepted everybody's pushback in good faith and in bad

faith. I get it. And I will say this. In the grand scheme of things, is it amazing? Amazing for someone to get that much money to tell their movie and then not have to be worried about it being for a quadrant or any of those things.

Yes, it is. You guys are right. My question to you is who's next. Agree. And that's it because I care about the next person that gets a chance to do that

and I care that there are other stories that are like that and I care that that next person is me. Okay. Yeah, you know what I've been thinking about a lot

is, and I have not seen her next two movies, is Nia da Costa. So Nia da Costa made a small independent feature with Tessa Thompson and then she leapt from that movie to a reboot of Candyman

and then she made the Marbles and Candyman and the Marvels both underperformed. The Marvels in particular had a really, really bad box office performance she got a raw deal and there was a lot of discussion about who was responsible for that was it Marvel's mismanagement of the project

did that movie get chopped up or taken away from her already working inside the Marvel system Kevin Feigy very much the author of a lot of those stories if not all of them also I mean that movie is about three young women

and the audience has like a certain bias. And it wasn't as bad as what they said it was. It was not. Compared to whatever else it was happening at that time out of Marvel it was like it was kind of on par with what a lot of those movies are. Anyhow, her next two movies now are she has a reimagining of Heta

Hedda Gobbler with Tessa Thompson that Amazon is putting out next month or this month actually it's October. And then she has the sequel to 28 years later, which is coming out in January, the Bone Temple. Bone Temple. And I'm really interested to see what happens with her career, because there really has not been a black female filmmaker who has been consistently working both in independent cinema, making, you know, character studies, and franchise films. This will be her third franchise film.

And to me, what she is allowed to do in the future, I think, is kind of meaningful to what you're describing here because she made the Marvels and then got a shot at 28 years later. She obviously pitched that, pitched her vision

of that movie as a follow-up to a Danny Boyle movie written by Alex Garland and she got that job. She earned that job. That would not have happened probably 20 years ago.

And I'm not saying the things are good. They're certainly different. They're evolving. Yeah. No, no, I'm not going to, look, you guys, I get it.

I look around right now and one of the reasons why it's such a great time, to tell stories is because there is so much talent out there. There are so many different mediums, so many different ways, so many different avenues. If you decided that you didn't give a fuck about anything, you could take all the money from the crypto bros or whatever and you go out there. They all want to be producers.

They all like, so there's all kinds of ways. Well, I guess my thing is the power of story. Like, you know what I think people are really talking about? is what they feel is inspired. Like, when you watch There Will Be Blood, there is a point in the movie, even for me, I think it was like 27 or 28 when it came out, that I was looking at the film and going,

like, why am I looking at this? Like, what, okay, let me pull it back a little bit. For filmmakers, for, like myself, people that watch movies like myself, an important story is because the message is important. Because like, not necessarily because the theme is important. The message means looking at how these people are living or look what happens to these people or look at this.

And that's what makes an important story. So you sit down and you get a good movie with great performances and you get just hit over the head with this is how the world should change. You don't get that from some of these other films. You get deep exploration of the huge. human condition, right? But you don't come away thinking, right now I have to boycott this or stop doing this or

read this. But I would much rather the latter than the former. But what I'm telling you is that it, it, for me, what I'm saying is there are all types of filmmakers whose stories are important for all types of reasons. Like, there are people that are like struggling

and just like dying for you to know just about how this 13 year old kid and Pakistan lives. And it's the most important thing to them. Either one of those, I think sometimes one part of that, from black people particularly, our stories have to be societally important. Right. They have to be about the condition of race or whatever. And if you tell good movies like that, race or oppression, if you tell good movies like that, then people sometimes reward you

with rewards and stuff like that. But the deep exploration of a Thursday in Los Angeles that went bad a lot of times we don't get rewarded for telling those stories and yeah and because people don't glom onto those parts of our lives

I'm saying a lot to say this I just want equality and genius I think I agree and this has nothing to do with PTA this has nothing to do with Scorsese this has nothing to do You want them to give the money back.

I don't want them. In fact, these movies should be deleted, you said. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, I don't. And you think they're frauds? I like the fact that they don't have to worry. If anybody, yo, if you ever been on an independent film set, if you've ever been on a film set where people don't have a lot of money, man, it could be fraud.

It could be, you can see a DP, sweating bullets. Like, guys, please. You do know that both of those filmmakers, though, that their roots are in that. That's what they came from. Yes, they're there. They are from that experience. They are from that. And over the course of their career,

they have been rewarded for their excellence and genius, but also for the fact that people understand the movies that they make. And that is also a part of the reason why we're seeing them being rewarded with the budgets. I'm just saying there's a whole part of filmmaking. Maybe I can say it best this way that people don't understand as well because there aren't people that appreciate those types of films or those types of filmmakers that are being counted. and decision makers and everywhere else.

So the only saving grace that they have is that their movies turn a profit, that they make some sort of money, or that they're about enough pain that people feel like they have to tell their friends to watch them. And so for me, I don't always want to tell the story of some abused person, and I don't always want to tell the story of,

sometimes I just want, the quirkiness of other people to result in a $170 million budget. There's a really good Kelly Reichert quote in the A-24 piece in the New Yorker. Kelly Rikert, one of the great American filmmakers and someone who makes small movies and makes quirky stuff.

And I love them. Nobody's giving her 170 anytime soon. And she made several movies with A-24 and then she says, quite honestly, that A-24, as they have expanded their ambitions, the movies that she wants to make her no longer, right? And what she says is, like, I feel lucky that I got two or three films with A24. She was like, I'm happy that they were, you know, in the mix for a while.

And, like, now they're not anymore. But it was, like, pretty crushing little anecdote in, you know, what is a celebratory piece about A24? We're making an episode about the Smashing Machine, which is part of the elevation of A24. This is a $60 million movie about a MMA fighter. So, you know... That to me is just kind of like business, you know, the industry, like business stocks,

business crushes and like all genius and art and allied's people and boo corporations. I can't boo the corporations because you need the corporations to pay for the art. You need the corporations to be the, the, the, uh, the midici's for the filmmakers. Yeah, but that is what they are. But it is, it just, that anecdote also. illustrates, it's like, they are the Demiches. It is, I mean, it is both business, but it is, like, who is going to decide to be a patron for this amount of time. And Vann's point is correct of, like, when, who decides to be a patron and what they decide that they want to patronize

is, I mean, sponsor, you know, is like, tends to be a certain kind of guys. Of course. Yeah, people who you're more comfortable spending time with socially or that you understand better or that you idolize or that you see yourself in. And certain types of stories. And that's not to say... But that's not what one battle after another is, though. Well... All right, go. Let's do it. Okay, so I'm going to be totally honest.

I saw one battle after another, and I... You can't not like it. It's really good. Yeah. Two things. One, I don't, I legitimately, and I, you guys... It's okay. But the criticism before, I legitimately don't understand the gas.

Like, honestly. Honestly, don't understand the gas. Okay, but you mean that, like, you don't mean, like, literally the Sean Penn guess. No, the Sean Pink gas is different. Yeah, okay. I was like, am I going to need to explain? That's different.

Okay. Like, Sean Penn's character is written to rule the movie. Yeah. And he does rule the movie. It's so funny. Jomi was in here and was talking about that. And I was saying, like, I basically don't think of that character when I think about the movie.

And what, like, I mean, like, it's obviously integral to what's going on in the movie. And the performance is, like, alarming. And, but when I am thinking, what sticks with me? It's like Sean Penn is not in the frame. Sean Penn, and this is why this movie is such a fantastic piece of art. Sean Penn's character in the movie to me is the only character that actually has a want. Everybody else is responding to his want, to his thing. And that, and his want is so, it becomes.

I mean, that's not true. Chase Infinity's character has a want. Fidia doesn't know what her want is, but that's part of the thing that she's trying to figure out. So Chase Infinity's character really doesn't have a one. She's placed in peril and she's reactionary to everything that she's placed into. Yeah, I mean when we meet her, we meet a young girl who's trying to find her own way. Who's trying to find independence from her father, this weird sheltered life that's been explored for her. She's trying to build a life of her own.

And the reason that we care that she's in peril is because we've seen that. Ah, for me. I'll just talk about for me. The reason why I care that she was in peril is because she was in peril. Really, the reason why I care that she was in peril is because she was an innocent. And I think characters like that are always interesting because they didn't sign up for it.

It's the classic kid thing. I didn't ask to be here. So how can you have these rules for me? You're inflicting your rules based upon your life on me and I didn't ask for none of this. Yeah, but. And so with the things that are happening to her are happening to her because of mistakes and situations

that other people have made and put her in. And so watching her climb out of those mistakes and situations is very satisfactory, is very satisfying should I say. But the person that is saying, I have to get her, I have to do this, even that

starts our narrative with the want of perfidia, the person that spins all of this into a story is Lockjaw. That's why to me, Lockjaw is the media's character in the thing because, and that's why his

death, the first death, particularly the second death, is not needed, but the first... Oh, you didn't like the T2 a much? No, the first death, the reason why is it was so perfect

was because it was so unceremonious. It was just, hey, guess what? It's the way things work in life. You fucked with the wrong people. No one, boom, head blown off. I was like, wow, to take him out like that you wanted all these big things, he wanted to be a part of the Christmas

motherfuckers, and you wanted to do all of this stuff, boom, you did the wrong thing, head blown off. Yep. So, I mean, not necessarily, I'm looking at the film and I'm thinking the film is hysterical. It was so much funny that I thought it was going to be. The performances are all fantastic, all of that. But like, like,

Best movie that we've seen in a long... I just didn't... I didn't see that or feel that in any sort of way. And... Do you feel that perhaps you are not emotionally and intellectually incentivized

to withhold a little bit based on your presentation about your ideas before you saw the movie? Perhaps, which is why I'm going to see it again. Oh, that's exciting. Perhaps, which is why I'm going to see it again. I have to be honest about that.

But in the same way that I am not trusted when it comes to a PTA movie, because I'm so far in the bag, I have become the bag. Well, this is your Marvel. And so, and by the way, can I tell you guys something? Uh-oh. Here we go.

Marvel's back. Let's just have a conversation about this. There is nothing wrong with being irrationally connected to something that you really care about. Of course I agree with that. Everybody that's kicking my ass, I like this. That's what you don't understand about me. You know, everybody that's going to, like, everybody is doing this. I like this because this shows me.

an intense connection to moving cinema and media and this is what has to happen for movies to get made and people to get their shot, you have to fucking care. So I enjoy it. But I also understand that a lot of films are looked at in two different ways.

And this happens in rap a lot too. You know this. If your reputation precedes you to the point what he used to write him and Chris. I grew up in Atlanta. What is this? Yeah, there we go. It's like the better people think you are,

the more they allow you to fail. And not that this movie is in any way, a failure, except for one way. Kingdom Come happened, and we were like, we'll move on. We'll get to 4-44-4-4. Yeah, it's Jay. You know he can do it. So even if it, there's one way that this movie fails.

Okay. And we talked about it on Midnight Boys. This movie fails black women. Okay. I knew I, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. And, man, there is a, because, and this is the nut kick. There are black women in this movie, and they are some of the most talented, amazing performers that we have.

Tia Taylor, Regina Hall, you do not want to, they would not endeavor into anything that they didn't think is nourishing. So I'm really interested to see how they are going to respond to some. of the criticism of the movie. I'm not going to say anything that's original. Brooke Obie, the great Brooke Obie, has talked about this. A lot of other people have written about this. This movie basically came out at the same time

that Asash Kour died, an actual real-life, black female revolutionary. The portrayal of perfidia Beverly Hills in this movie, despite being really well portrayed, almost otherworldly by Tiana Taylor. It's an abomination.

It's like it is... Yeah. It is because of the actions that the character takes? Because of... I was typically... And, you know, I was verbose on this about the...

On the Midnight Boys about it, but intention is what matters when you're talking about the care of black women. The situation that black women exist, and particularly black women with a certain political thrust that have put their lives on the line for revolution, the way that they've been undermined, exiled, and treated in America is intentional. So when there is a portrayal of a black woman, particularly a black woman that exists in the space that Perfidia Beverly Hills exists in, you want to see that same intention in them, that same care in them. And what you really kind of got was someone that was so... grotesquely selfish

and unaware that everyone that she met was worse off because of it. And it's just an interesting standpoint to watch a white male writer-director put a black female character. Like, it's just an interesting thing. I've seen really compelling arguments

on both sides of this, like, hey, true freedom is the ability to be flawed and be redeemed, all of that. I've seen that, and I hold space for that. It's dramatic. It's not a documentary. I understand, but I also understand that there are tropes that exist. I mean, there might be a dramatic place for Blackface to exist in a film like this or some other place.

That doesn't mean I want to see it. And that doesn't mean I want to see it done irresponsibly. Sure. And so I think one way that we can all kind of show that we are in lockstep as filmmaking fans, is to accept some of this criticism and understand where it's coming from. And when you see someone, like, let's fuck while the bomb goes off,

goes in there, she's trying to liberate people, get your dick up. She has sex with both of the white protagonists, gets pregnant by one, abandons her child because she's too safe. Then snitches on the whole thing and leaves and then writes on the wall, this pussy don't pop for you no more.

That seems like somebody's face. fantasy. It just, it, it seems like somebody's fetish fantasy. I know this is adapted from something and that character is not a black lady in this, but I think

that actually makes it worse. Do you think is mitigated at all by the fact that her daughter is the hero of the story? No. I don't. Do you think it's mitigated?

at all by to me I think that I think that the presentation of those ideas which I went on Wesley Morris's pod

which I think goes up later this week and we talked about this a little bit on his show too I anticipated this and it's very understandable I mean this is a very raw

portrayal if people get into your mentions about like this is like woke revolutionary propaganda or whatever I'm like if you look at how perfidia is characterized this is not a celebration

of someone who's pursuing that lifestyle all. In fact, it's like a it's a very harsh portrayal. It she's a, and you can say insensitive or wrong. Well, insensitive, not only that, but like, also it, it, she, Leonardo DiCaprio is holding her child and she spits to him a bunch of bullshit about the revolution when really she doesn't see it that way.

Okay. So this is what I, this is why I'm to ask you. I mean, his question is it mitigated by, uh, her daughter, a young black woman being like the hero? but is it mitigated by it's an incredibly selfish character and also a character that does everything or a movie that has the character

do everything that you just said which is you know a stereotype fetish fetish fetishization it's very hard on this little a summary all in one I do think that both the filmmaking and the performance

at least explores or tries to signal it like why that's happening and why or ask the question of why is this person so selfish and why is this person doing these things and does the expiration maybe and maybe that doesn't

but that scene that you were talking about in particular he's holding her baby and she has just gone through a montage I like keep thinking about which is some people have called it postpartum depression but like I don't we don't even need to add that name to it it's just the really disorienting feeling of having given birth to another human and what does that mean to you and what is that mean for the other person and what does that make you how what is your concept of yourself like as a mother what is the concept of being a mother,

is that different from being a person? And then, you know, this scene when she's with Lockjaw and it, his, like, his boner starts first. And then she's like, I see that I have some sort of power.

But, like, what is, to me, Tiana's Taylor's performance explores, like, the feelings and the experiences of those stereotypes in a way. And maybe it doesn't for you and maybe it doesn't communicate. And if it, but if it did, would that mitigate it or is it?

So her irresponsibility starts before she gives birth. Like they're sitting down and she's drinking and stuff. And he goes, it's like she doesn't even know that she's pregnant. Yeah. Everybody talks about how hapless Bob is. But he wasn't hapless when he knew that he was going to become a father. It changed everything for him. Also, can I just like, as, you know, that's also an example of a white man policing, like,

what someone wants to do. And my experience of pregnancy was like a bunch of people telling me what I can't do and can or can't do with my body in ways that by the way is still happening like all the time.

And you know. I'm sorry for all those comments I made to you. Sure. Thank you. But like, you know, so even that, I guess like he's being responsible

but also it's like she can do whatever she wants. This is me from a very privileged perch communicating this. But when I was watching the movie and I've seen the movie four times now.

To me, that character is an expression of the necessary self-preservation and coercion that happens when you are a black woman pursuing these ideas in the world, and that there is a way that you are fetishized, that you are made into an icon of a certain type, and that there are a lot of men and a lot of lock jaws in the world that put you in positions of, I don't know about helplessness, but surrender because of their power. And also that the entire movie is about one generation's version of revolution and another generation's version of revolution.

And commentary on that. And the impossibility because of the ruthlessness of our system, I think in some ways to pursue violent revolution, which is what perfidy represents. She represents a no-holds-barred pursuit, an explosive, aggressive, criminal pursuit. not a nonviolent pursuit. And the tension there. I don't know that... I don't think it's judging her.

If you want to say she does terrible things... Oh, it doesn't judge her at all. It doesn't... The movie doesn't judge her at all. The movie, as a matter of fact, doesn't actually investigate almost anything about her. I guess my thing is...

I know those Black Lady revolutionaries, but not the ones in her... And they... they mamas and they they're not selfish they're not crumly they are hold on they are the opposite

of selfish their politic and I'm not saying that this means that perfidious has to be their politic for the for the entire world and society comes from

the way that they feel like their children should be accepted and reared in it so it's that but perfidia exists in that lineage we see her grand mother talking to Bob saying my daughter

comes, or my granddaughter comes from a long line of revolutionaries. I think the thing that I'm trying to point out here is that perfidia is one character. But those women, the movie isn't about those women. The movie is about her. No, it's not about her. She is in the prologue. I know, but when I'm saying, when I say it's about her, I mean, they're in it

in the background, the character. Like every other, so Regina Hall's character, every black woman that shows care in the movie is punished for it. I don't know. that's accidental but it happened

I think it's on purpose right right so it's the most vulnerable class in our society that's the whole point of the movie yeah but at the same time

perfidia is one of the people in the movie that punished other black women all of this stuff is happening to them because of her so

she took actions but she exists inside of a system that coerces her she snitched she made a this she made she snitched

got jungle pussy killed sent every did she destroyed her own revolution sent everybody running for the hills she put her she abandoned her daughter and then when Regina Hall comes back into the movie to save her daughter and brings her to the nuns she brings lockjaw's rage

with her and destroys all of those lives and every single one of the nuns is handcuffs there is that shot of them walking out I mean you're not you're right every single one of them is is is going I'm not saying that this was all done in intentional messaging from the writer-director from PTA

but what I'm saying is that like oftentimes that character might mean more to me than it does to other people the portrayal of that character might mean more to me I might feel a little bit more inclined to be like what are we trying to say here right and somebody else might be sitting at their desk

going I'm going to write a cool sexy, badass black chick. I'm going to write, I'm going to do all of this stuff. It does strike to me that like when it strikes me, should I say, that when Quinn Tarantino

decided that he was going to like orient his movie around a black woman, he treated somebody who has a fraught relationship with race. He treated her with so much care. Like, and that might have been his respect for Pam Greer,

that might have been what that was about but it seemed like at least there was an understanding that a middle-aged black female needs for someone to be able to zoom out and look at the entirety of what that means and what and the decisions she would have to make and the movie almost like in that film she almost floats around on clouds

and watches the chaos around her and has the wherewithal and the gumption to be, able to navigate it. It's in a very empowering performance. I mean, you're describing a movie, you're describing the hero of a movie. Perfidia is not the hero of this movie.

She's the villain. And so, and so, and that's, she's not. She's not. Well, she's one of the villains of the film. How could she not be? She does terrible things, but that doesn't make you a villain in a movie. Lockjaw is the villain. Lockjaw is the agent of the system that puts Perfidia

in the situation in the first place. She, he is the agent of the system. And he is also literally the person who impregnates her, which is, you know, there's a, like a load-bearing metaphor there quite literally a load what I'm saying is all of these things

are choices that she's made where she centers herself and no one else. You're right. And and like that is the opposite of what black female activist and revolutionaries do.

They prioritize their communities and their families. They take on family. They take everybody becomes their family to a point that they live lives in imperiled lives for decades for their entire life because of their decisions to put other people before them. This is like a really complex philosophical dynamic that you're describing. What you're talking about is the value of representation. Is it better for the film and better for society that the film depict, if it's going to depict a black female revolutionary, that it do so in what you would describe as true terms and that also feel like

moral terms, that for the movie's sake, it is better if perfidia Beverly Hills does not rat goes into a kind of seclusion or is killed and made a martyr figure and then the story can go from there. Or is this the creation of an artist, granted? a white male artist, but the creation of an artist and that the story and what the movie is ultimately driving towards, which is ultimately about this tension between two generations trying to make change,

is that ultimately more important? And do you want to empower the artist? Because you premised a lot of this conversation on people being able to express themselves and say the things that they want to say that are valuable to them, and whether it be a $2 million or $170 million. So you get into an area

where you're effectively policing characterization by saying, this is not okay that this person in this film, it does these things because this is not what the movement is about. I would always quibble with that. That is in the territory of like borderline censorship that I'm ultimately not comfortable with,

but I am also a white guy hosting a movie podcast in my 40s. I'm aware of what it means to say that. And that it's easier for me to say, he should be able to do whatever he wants. But it is very, very complicated once you start saying, this was the worst part of the movie

because I didn't like what it showed about something that I feel is not true in society. Only for black people does truth equate to censorship. And the reason why I say that is because what we've begged is for an accurate representation of us for a long time. And sometimes what comes back is these are the stories. If you want to be in them, we should be able to tell them the way we see them. And we're saying, okay, that's not us.

and not only is that not us but this is it's so not us that it plays into tropes that have been used to minimize us can we talk about it like can we discuss the fact and we are discussing

me just to be real with you I'm very happy we're discussing it and I'll you know a company man I don't have this people say what the fuck they want about this place

but we've been discussing it like on podcast in the fucking room. You're right. We've been talking about it. And nobody has gotten, maybe Jack got pissed off a little bit. Nobody has gotten mad. Nobody has stormed out.

Nobody has not had this. Nobody has not had the conversation. We've been doing that. But what I'm saying is that like, no one wants to see PTA or anybody else have to write to what they feel the best intentions of a character are because that makes for more. movie. Right. That's ultimately what I'm getting at. True. But after generations, we do just start

to ask why. And by the way, these are not just conversations that we have about Paul Thomas Anderson's movies. We have them about Tyler Perry's movies. And God damn it, if we're going to have them about Tyler Perry's movies or about hip hop or about any of this stuff, if we're going to have these conversations intra-communally, then we certainly don't have them when we see movies that are about to win 10 Oscars and all of that stuff and about the

portrayal of black women and them, we have to have them. Of course. And they're uncomfortable to have when Wood Harris is in it. Do you know how fucking excited I get to see Wood Harris? We all would have liked more Wood Harris. Yes. We all know how excited I get to see Wood Harris in the movie.

Wood Harris should be not just in this movie. What Harris should be in every movie. Guess what? He's earned it. He's earned it. Tiana Taylor has earned it. My wife was like, what happened to Avon? Yeah. Like, he's earned it. These performers have earned it. And it's so fucking awesome to see them up there

with these other people that are minted in the town. Part of the reason why I think I'm pushing back on this a little bit. Setting aside my fanboys status. This movie goes to great lengths to portray DeAndra. This movie shows us Mother Superior at the Sisters of the Brave Beaver. You know, this movie does make Chase Infinity ultimately the person who fires the gun

and saves the day. Like, it's not, to me, it is not an insensitive portrayal, but it is a portrayal with a lot of nuance and friction. And like the perfidia character, just like the character in the film, is a confrontation to the audience. It is a question of if this person existed,

what would happen in the world? And that is something that art, in my opinion, should and can do. So you might, what you're saying is 100% valid that after generations of portrayals

like this, just saying like, why is it like this? This doesn't feel right. I respect it. But I'm very uncomfortable with specifically saying we can't do this.

Well, it's, I don't think anybody is saying that you can't. Obviously you can. I think we're exploring the why more than anything. And, And also that it doesn't land, you know?

And we talked about that even walking out. The decision to make perfidia the rat, you know, which is like is from the book, but is just like a very frat and you walk out. And you, like, even you and I, like, we're questioning the decision and what does that mean? And what are you representing with that? And it's, and did you need to do it? I don't know. Like that, that to me, you know, I guess I have like editor brain.

I'm just like, well, what do we just tweaked this? And maybe everyone would be like a lot happier. Yeah. And then not a lot happier. That sounds reductive. But maybe it would all add up. Like, I think it's conscious and I think it is meaning to provoke us. A hundred percent.

In my opinion. I don't think. But I also completely understand if it doesn't land. But part of why it's good, I think, is because it generated this conversation. Yeah, of course. I mean, look, two things. One, when black women roll their eyes, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, be honest with you.

Like, cultural differences. When black women roll their eyes, my innate response is, what's wrong? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter where we at. We're in a restaurant, I roll, what's wrong? Like, we're in a movie, in a show, I roll. When black women roll their eyes, what's wrong? What's up?

Tell me what's up? because we got to have this conversation and there's some eye rolling that's going on right now and I understand why the eye rolling is going on there's a last thing that gets said there a lot of times could be 150 performances that are sometimes pandering with the heroism of certain characters

sometimes you write them as if they are Mother Superior or whatever like that sometimes but when it's something like this that people love so much we always ask why do you love that depiction like when it's something like this

and everyone goes this is the greatest thing ever the most amazing thing ever it's why is it that depiction that you love. After Denzel Washington has won, has been nominated for Malcolm X, he, this is not a criticism with Denzel, he has won his Oscar for playing a slave

and then a dirty cop. We always go, well, why is it that? After Hallie Berry has been in the town for so long making great movies, she got, let me be respectful, but you guys have seen monsoon, ball. We always go, that's what y'all like.

Like, okay, all right. Now, if we make the movie, then obviously the characters are more nuanced, right? But not all the time, but we always go, that's what you like, huh? That's what

you will reward. That's like, that's what is the greatest thing. And the question just why? I'm not saying any of these things are solved because they're not solved I would describe Hollywood in this particular aspect

as very different in the last 10 years to me there's a demarcation point between 12 years of slave to now where that felt to me like kind of the last time when that framework of storytelling well that's a reaction yeah that's a

yeah and I get well by the way But the character in Green Book is not the kind of character that you're describing. I know. That's an elegant artist that is portrayed on screen. And listen to me, man, like you can't, because some of this stuff gets into, then we're policing what kind of roles we should be taken and what kind of stuff. And that is not.

He also did win for Moonlight as well. It's coming from Barry's mind, which when you look at the movies that he has made or that Ava has made or that I can go down and down and down and up and up and up and up and up and all, and all of that stuff. You see these three-dimensional characters who exist. If you were to take Mahershala Ali's character in Moonlight, I'm going to be real with you. Those were the drug dealers that I knew.

Just one. Like, those were the guys that I knew. I didn't know the guys that were like, hey, man, fuck everybody, kill them all, doing this. I'm sure those guys were around. The guys that I knew would feel a little bit of shame when looked at their grandmother the wrong way.

They were uncomfortable in church. They were awed when people were talking about right and wrong. They knew they were doing wrong. And they also sometimes went overboard to protect you and to put you in a feeling of safety and to do things for you. So you would look the other way while they were doing shit that they knew they had no business doing,

but that the choice matrix that they were presented with, made them do. And so I just never, you just got to a point where when you saw that character, you were just like, Jesus Christ, like thank you, Barry.

Like, that's my Uncle Mark. Like, that's him. I cannot read his rap sheet and then tell you that he was a good guy because you're not going to believe me. Like, once I do it, I can't do that. But that's the fucking guy. That's him.

And then he dies. just in that movie, and they don't even show it. They just come back while I'm been dead. That's how it happens. And nobody cares except for the four fucking people that relied on him. And then you get into another film and it's like, oh. And it's everything that everyone is saying is correct. And, boy, it just feels like being the drag at the fucking party.

But I'm just saying, let's just talk it out. You're not the drag at the party. No, no, no. The only reason why I'm saying that is because it's like this guy. I've been this guy for so long. It's like, I remember when I, when the Kanye thing happened, like people from Best Buy, they were emailing me. And they were like, remember that conversation we had in the parking lot outside work

when you were going crazy over Iraq War? I was like, yeah. It's like, glad to see you. You made that your career. Yeah. My whole fucking career. And so I'm not trying to record scratch y'all movie. I swear to God I'm not.

No, it's obviously something that people have been asking us about since we've been raving about. Most people are raving about this This is one of the more unanimous raves And now 10 days since release Is the time when everybody's gonna be like Are we sure this is good? Let's explore the reason which maybe it isn't working Okay two things

The movie is good But there is Just overall the overall quality of the film There is like I feel like there is A gas to it that I don't understand But that's besides the point Because we could talk

I ranked my PTA movies and I put the master above there will be blood and people were like, are you fucking with me? Same. So, but so. I did that on the last episode. So I'm right there. And then I put this and Phantom Thud above those.

So. Oh, interesting. You put this movie above Boogie Nights? Yeah. You're wilding. Well, he, I mean, he did too. You're crazy. But, but honestly.

Crazy people's podcast. We're changing the name. Change the Lord thirds. The name of this podcast is no longer the big picture. It's the crazy people's podcast. But also all of my. I'm so glad you're here This wasn't even planned

Yesterday I was like I convinced I know but but seriously though And look once again I mean Joe told me How much she loved Inherent Vice I told that to somebody

In the office Oh yeah And I'm not gonna say who it was And they threw their shit on the ground She hates it I literally said get out of here When talking about it Because I fuck it

That's the lowest on my list Well I'm not a stoner Like I'm not doing any part of that And the three PTA movies that I, well, my top two have women characters in them, you know? So it's like, it's, it's not rocket science, kind of like what you're responding

to, and even when we were talking about perfidia, I'm talking about the half of the experience that, like, I can relate to with her, you know? So it's, it's not, it's, it's, it's not hard. Yeah. So, you know, oh, and that is what it is, I really enjoyed the movie. The theater had

a great time. I think it's something, there's something to be said about a movie that deals in such weighty stuff that you can still have a good time with. And that's kind of like, yeah, absolutely. It's a fun thinker.

It's a, it's a fun thinker. There are other things in the movie that like, for the record, that was my takeaway from sinners as well, which is,

I was like, this movie has loaded with ideas, but it's just a fun time. It's just, the in theater experience was very exciting. You're having fun.

As far as a lot of the pushback that you're seeing, um, I'll just say it again. Uh, it's a lot of pushbacks that you're seeing from people, about some of the

characterizations of black women and some of the fates of black women in a movie. I think that there's something, and I just want to say this very cleanly. We want to see black ladies taking care of. And when we see them not being taken care of,

we're going to have a conversation. Now, does that always mean that like that conversation won't be met with whatever, whatever? No, but we will have the conversation. conversation. And this film, it just, it seemed like particularly that character, the overall characterization of revolutionaries period, something that's very important to the African American tradition, the black tradition in this country, were treated in sort of a haphazard way that

some would say, doesn't, not some would say, that I say, doesn't do it any justice. I mean, that's the point of the movie, but with something that's going to be this important culturally, it's just it's a conversation that has to happen. And that's what R does. It's what our does. We have the conversation and so

that's what art does. So the takeaway is that this film is about how the only people who are good a revolution are white men. Actually, no one in this movie is good at anything. It's true. I mean, I mean, just to be honest with you, oh, you know who it's, well,

You know who's good at stuff? I mean, Sensei Sergio is very good. I mean, he saves Bob twice. Even him, even he drinks, he's drinking beer

in front of the cops and kind of just, yeah, yeah. But he is. But that's by design. But you know who's good at stuff in this movie? Who's on?

The Christmas niggas. Yeah. They, they like. Yeah, they're the big winners. Yeah. They did not lose any control.

They did not lose anything. And it's, once again, it's just even that. Again, that's part of the, point with the perfidious character is like there's nothing she can do to overcome this nothing but there is we have overcome we've overcome the way that powers organized in the united states

of america this is not CNN yeah we have overcome okay oh i mean we haven't all like i'll just say this in the weekend movie yeah we haven't overcome totally but we we started off in this country as beasts as as as cattle we started off in this country

as people who were cut off from God from humanity everything that we invented was stolen everything that we were

was bought and soul and we've overcome that we haven't completely reformed and reshaped America into the vision of itself that it said it was, we haven't.

But we certainly, through the power of our ancestors and the kinetic energy of our fight and our unity culturally, have overcome a wilderness that wanted to kill us. We have. And so we can overcome, and we will. And we kind of always do. But while we're watching these movies on the way to it,

and we've overcome because of us it was us but we've overcome with help from other people who realized the shit was wrong and so I'm never cynical just so people know me I'm never cynical about what has been achieved I'm not going to act like the fight is over when there's over we have a very different point of view about this

the arc of black Americans what you're describing of course is true what the movie is suggesting about the way that power works in the country while it is very funny because it's written in a very humorous way I think it is eerily true you're right yeah but that doesn't mean

oh hold on like winning and overcoming two different things no we ain't won like but we've actually I don't even know what winning would look like I'm not even sure I think about the world that way because we're not in a winning winning for me would be very simple, it would be the power of

economic, political, and the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, we don't have to get into all that. Yeah. So, I mean, that's a win that maybe, maybe, maybe that can't even happen. But as far as over, I just want to sit on my couch, smoke weed and watch the

battle of Algiers. That's what the fuck I'm talking. You know, like, that's what I want to be able to do. But as far as all that over, over, that over, overcoming, we might not win, but we've overcome some really things, some really incredible things. Look. this movie asks a lot of, like, incredible questions, but it is essentially, and that's the last thing I say,

it's essentially a movie about a father and a daughter. So it's essentially what the movie is about. A father and a daughter, and I think the most interesting thing about the movie is it's not about an actual father and a daughter. It's about the love that you have for someone and how that love exists, no matter what the reality of the situation is.

That's right. Like, it's me. It's your dad. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's all of the things that you're supposed to be able to draw on to save the people that you love. Yeah. That sometimes you can't, because sometimes you don't remember the password.

So I praise and revere the movie. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, the movie is some fuck shit. It's a good movie, not the best movie that's ever been made. Okay. It doesn't hold a candle. the parasite or other movies like that. It's not even in the same fucking class.

But it, it's also some fuck shit. Okay. I think millions of people hear this episode and feel seen by your comments. So thank you. Millions of people listen to the big picture.

Yeah. Last episode. Y'all got it like that? Yeah, last episode had 36 million listeners. You're lying. Oh, I was about to, I was about to say, we got to, we got to overcome it.

Y'all got to overcome. Y'all doing good, but I didn't know what's happening. No, no. Thank you. You are the man. Appreciate you guys. All complaints at Van Lathen on Twitter. Catch him on CNN.

Thanks so much to Van. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to you for receiving this episode in good faith. We'll see you very soon on The Big Picture. I'm going to be able to be.