The Big Picture - Oscars 2019: Instant Reactions to ‘Green Book’ and the Two Warring Academies | The Oscars Show (Ep. 131)

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

We react to what we feared might happen all Oscars season—a ‘Green Book’ Best Picture victory—by weighing the power of the old Academy vs. the new Academy. Plus, reactions to Spike Lee's long-awaited Oscar win, Alfonso Cuarón’s coronation, and Olivia Colman's shocking Glenn Close in Best Actress. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessey. And I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the 91st Academy Awards. Amanda, here we are in the day of our Green Book, winner of the best picture. You had a feeling. I had a feeling. A lot of people had a feeling clearly in the Academy that Green Book, the story of Tony Lip and Don Shirley, two men who befriended one another in the 1960s and drove through the American South, is now the best picture.

And I was shocked by the outcome. Were you shocked? Yes. I think I was a little less shocked because you, late last week, were like, there's a feeling in the air. And I think we both thought this is going to go, quote, wrong. You and I both picked Roma on our ballots. We did.

That was the favorite going in. And we both felt like we had gone wrong with our ballots by the end of last week. I thought it was going to be Bohemian Rhapsody. And you thought it was going to be Green Book. And here you are. Well, I wouldn't say I feel good about being right. I mean, the only reason that that happened is because I had had a chance to talk to a handful of people who either work in the movie business and one person who was a voter. And they all said it's going to be Green Book.

They didn't say they were voting for Green Book or even encouraging anyone to vote for Green Book, but that they could just feel it happening. The last time you and I had a instant pod like this, it was immediately after the Golden Globes where Green Book won. And maybe we should have known something when that happened. I think that there's so much to unpack here about what this win means. There is clearly a core theme that we're going to investigate here because this is a night in which Black Panther won three Oscars, in which Spike Lee won his first Oscar. But also, Bohemian Rhapsody won four Oscars and Green Book won three Oscars, including original screenplay and best picture. And I feel like we see an Academy that is split in half. There is an old Academy and a new Academy.

And all the work that's been happening over the last five years is manifesting itself in certain wins. And all the work that's been done in the previous 90 years is also manifesting. And it's an extraordinary thing to see happen in real time. I agree. And that has been, in many ways, the theme of this season has just been the tension between the old Academy and old Hollywood and the new Academy and the new Hollywood and the way we watch movies and the types of movies that we watch and take seriously. And, you know, Netflix had a candidate up for best picture tonight and it

didn't win. It didn't. And I think there was a lot of resistance throughout the year or throughout the season to this idea of Netflix winning an Oscar. And there were a lot of people who were against that and didn't want to see that happen for a lot of different reasons, possibly including their own business interests, but whatever, you know, it's an industry. And then there were a lot of people who I think aligned themselves with Green Book because of the conversation around Green Book. There were a lot of people who were pretty vocal about the fact that they didn't appreciate people complaining or asking questions about the way that Green Book was written or told or the concerns of Don Shirley's family.

They didn't like being told what to do. They are people who are successful in Hollywood, and they decided that they can do what they want. And I think that that's another theme that has kind of been through this season of how dare you guys talk to us? How dare you question our power? We have been successful in Hollywood for a long time and we're going to vote accordingly. They voted how they felt, I suppose. It was interesting the way that the movie was positioned throughout the night, because early in the night, we saw consecutive Black Panther wins in the best costume category and in the best production design category, two African-American women winning.

It was the first time even one had won in more than 35 years in a non-acting category. And then slowly but surely, I felt like the show was going very smoothly. The no hosting seemed to be not much of an issue. We'll talk a little bit more about that later in the show. There was this kind of ease of use. It was one of the most calm and well-oiled Oscars telecasts that I can recall in a long time. Great first hour, much like A Star is Born. Much like A Star is Born.

And then this sort of ended the way that A Star is Born ends, candidly, with the brutal death of Netflix's Best Picture chances, along with Black Klansman and Black Panther and a number of other films. And Bradley Cooper's Oscar chances. And Bradley Cooper's. And also ran from the very beginning. We have so much to say about Bradley Cooper and A Star is Born and a very special performance of Shallow. But the Green Book thing is fascinating. And my immediate reaction was they've done it again. You know, they've just picked another movie that in five years, we're going to be like that movie won best picture. Seriously. And I don't hate Green Book. I certainly see its flaws. And I am, I feel,

I have complicated feelings about the revelations around Don Shirley's family and how they've discussed the movie and rewatching it. I can certainly see from new perspectives, what's problematic about the movie, but there are things to recommend about it. Mahershala Ali obviously won for Best Supporting Actor. He's wonderful in the movie. But man, this is just so clearly a mistake. And I'm more gobsmacked than I should be, I guess. Well, I think I am kind of used to the Academy

making mistakes in Best Picture. I mean, this is part of the fun of watching the Oscars and like bitching about the Oscars is that we whine and we say, oh, you know, look at everything that was overlooked. There's like a tradition of Best Picture getting it wrong. Right. So I don't know that I would almost be weirded out if suddenly Best Picture were getting it right all of the time. I would start questioning my own senses and being like, wait, has my taste in film changed? But I think what is shocking or a little uncomfortable making about this particular one is just, I keep going back to this idea of just the resistance to change and the resistance of feedback and the resistance of all of the people who won in the first hour of the show that we were so excited about.

And there is a group within Hollywood who does not seem excited about that. And I can't separate that from the Green Book victory. So to me, it's more about what this particular not quite worthy film represents in terms of what we want Hollywood and the film industry to be going forward. So I'm going to share with you a comparison that someone made recently that is the most obvious and unfortunate comparison, but then in a lot of ways, people feel like this reflects the white lash of the Donald Trump election. And I think that that's maybe probably putting too fine a point on it, but there is definitely this feeling that there are a lot of older voters who like this movie,

and not just white voters. I mean, John Lewis presented this film during the ceremony, and, you know, it's really complicated. It's really complicated to know. I mean, we're 30 years exactly since Driving Miss Daisy won, and the conversation around this sort of thing

was roiling back then, and it's fitting that Spike Lee won tonight, but did not win Best Director and did not win Best Picture for Black Klansman. I don't know what this means. Do you think that this is just sort of like we have to wait out a 10-year generation of people moving out of the Academy before it becomes something different? Or is this maybe just a confluence of events because of the sort of the specific representative ideas in each nominee tonight? I think it's just we're kind of in that seesaw of change, right? And you saw that even within the telecast tonight where the first hour you're like, this is great. Two wins for Black Panther.

Regina King won. We're feeling great. And then Bohemian Rhapsody won several awards in the technical categories and it it seesawed back and forth between I think what you and I and a certain type of viewer sees as the development of the of the academy and then the choices and weird mistakes and awards maybe that we wouldn't have picked ourselves that we are used to from the academy awards. And that to me just seems a little bit that there are maybe two academies or like 15 different types of academies. It really is an organization in flux. They've added a lot of new members. They are trying to update it. And I think you also got to keep in mind that the industry is very much in

change. How we see movies is very much in change. And so every voter is going to respond to that differently. And I think everyone is seeing a future of Hollywood that's like slightly different and none of it really makes sense yet. So I think maybe in 10 years, the change will just have happened a bit more, if that makes any sense. That it won't be as, this is also confusing just because nobody knows what to do. And that's true of Hollywood at large. And that seems like it was certainly true of the ballots. Yeah. It's the other thing that's interesting to me about this is aside from the obvious sociological issues around the movie and what people are sort of vexed about. I just thought that all of the big green book wins were just kind of bad TV. I thought Mahershala Ali,

who is obviously a wonderful actor, gave a speech that he has more or less been giving for the last three months. It wasn't good television. When Peter Farrelly and Nick Vallelonga received Best Original Screenplay, there was almost this feeling of like, don't say the wrong thing, emanating not just from the audience, but also from the people receiving awards, that there was like a particularly close watch on what was said. And so you didn't get this exultation.

You didn't get this extraordinary feeling of excitement that you got, say, when Olivia Coleman won or even Rami Malek won, you know, who is clearly very moved and excited about that. I'm sure it was a lifelong dream of his to win, you know, because of what Nick Vallelonga went through with tweets that were exposed and all of the revelations about the writing of this screenplay. I could almost feel a tenseness in him not to say anything other than like, I just want everybody to love each other.

And that was kind of blank. And then, you know, a secret of the Oscars is that the best picture acceptance speech is often pretty bad. Yes. Because it's often given by producers. And this year was no exception. And there have just been a lot of mediocre Peter Farrelly acceptance speeches. I was going to say, you know who didn't seem tense? Peter Farrelly.

You know who seemed right at home? Who just walked right on stage and was like, give me the Oscar? Peter Farrelly. He seemed at home. I wouldn't say he was very interesting, though. And that's bad for the show. You know, I mean, the show was relatively crisp by its standards. I think it was probably no more than three hours and 20 minutes um people probably stuck around for this more than likely it got in under three and a half hours and this is what they were rewarded with and you know I guess that's fine if you're a fan of Green Book um and it's okay if even if you're not a fan of Green Book but a show that was sort of just generally lacking pizzazz ending on such a down note it's sort of like a

scratching your chin emoji ultimately like that was the feeling I had at the end of the show you and Julia Roberts who ended the broadcast being like well apparently that's the end she looked great and also very on point she should have hosted well no no one should have hosted we'll talk okay okay that's fair that was fine. But she was great. And I think that we should go back and examine her reading the words green book, because I think it was a real, I don't want to be the person saying this kind of moment. I don't know. She had that, that thousand watt smile, but you know, her smile has many tones and I know that tone, that tone was like, why is it me? That's true. That's true. Did you notice that they didn't

thank Don Shirley in their final acceptance speech? That was unfortunate. Perhaps representative, perhaps metaphorical for this entire venture. You know, I thought even before this award, we were going to talk about the idea of the two academies just because of the other wins that happened. The Green Book original screenplay probably should have been more of a sign to us that this is where we were going. Oftentimes the best picture winner picks up a screenplay win. For whatever reason, it just wasn't dawning on me. I kept thinking about Bohemian Rhapsody because you kind of talked me into it

over the last couple of days. We never quite got there, which I was relieved about. Let's go all the way to the front of the show, though. I felt like the Queen performance that opened the show was neither the old Academy nor the new Academy.

It was just sort of like a concert you'd see at Jones Beach, like with your mom. Like it was just not, that was not the Oscars and it wasn't bad. It was just sort of confusing. I have made my feelings known on song performances during the Oscars and we will revisit it because you know, I have some scores to settle. I didn't care for it. There was like a huge amount of queen both in the show and in the commercials, and which just seemed to me, everyone was latching onto the only movie

that made any money, except for Black Panther, which made more money, but you know, that's fine. That's true. But it was in the commercials, it was everywhere. People just kind of wanted to be a part

of the Bohemian Rhapsody experience. There were just as many superfluous cutaways to Brian May in this show as there were in Bohemian Rhapsody. All of the times you kept seeing Brian May in the frame, you're like, why am I looking at Brian May instead of Freddie Mercury? Yeah. What did you think generally about Bohemian Rhapsody sort of overwhelming certain aspects of the telecast? You know, it just seemed to me like ratings, ratings. We need people to want to watch the show. We need people to care. And obviously that is a movie that putting its quality aside which i i think we can now for the most part

thankfully like we can don't have to talk about bohemian rhapsody as some great piece of cinema anymore no small did we ever do that well you and i did it okay i think many people wanted to but it is a movie that a lot of people enjoyed it certainly made a lot of money and you gotta get viewers somehow so i think it's okay for flawed movies to be nominated for awards that's gonna happen forever uh i think i would have felt a lot differently if it went like oh for seven or whatever however many oscars it was nominated for and then we just said oh that was like kind of a curio it did win best best actor which is of course one of the signature awards and we're gonna remember that forever sort of as one of these like how did this happen

the one that reminded me of and this may be a little bit uncharitable towards uh rami malik but i thought a bit of adrian brody winning for the pianist which was also made by controversial controversial filmmaker with a sordid past and it's a movie that i wouldn't say was beloved but there was a sort of a strong feeling within the Academy for. And Adrian Brody hasn't really done anything as notable since. And I worry almost for that curse for Rami Malek because I'm a fan of Rami Malek's.

But even in this movie, many people pointed out on Twitter tonight that the clip they used to show us was him lip syncing. Yes, remember when I was like, he didn't sing, he shouldn have won an Oscar for five months and he mocked me? Well. It's fine.

You know, I have heard, and this is impossible to verify, but the makers of the film have said that they synced his vocals with Freddie's vocals in various stages. They can also sync my vocals with it

and, you know, would sound the same. I don't think we want that. Okay, you don't know. You haven't heard me sing. Do you want to do a little Queen? No, I don't. What would be your Queen of Song of Choice right now?

You're my best friend, maybe? No. I think this vote, that was for Freddie Mercury. They just, people really, really liked listening to Queen songs loud. And he was obviously the most electric part of that movie. So I don't think, I think that we will not be proud of it in five years, but also, you know, whatever. How do you think Ethan Hawke spent his Sunday night?

That's a great question. I assume he was in Brooklyn, walking around, maybe getting some ice cream. Did they do Sunday night showings of True West? Because I think he's performing True West right now on Broadway. I think a matinee. A matinee, okay.

I don't know actually. Maybe he just hit the CBD oil, you know, taking a nap. Yeah. Okay. Shout out to Ethan Hawke. I think a matinee. A matinee, okay. And then maybe he has, I don't know actually. Maybe he just hit the CBD oil, you know, taking a nap. Yeah. Okay, shout out to Ethan Hawke. I wish you were nominated. It's probably time to talk about Olivia Colman.

This was probably the most fun win of the night. Yes. I would say bar none, the most fun win of the night. Oh, absolutely. She, of course, won Best Actress

for the favorite defeating the star of The Wife, a movie that we really went out of our way to watch. Yeah, we did. We saw The Wife. We saw The Wife

and we did an entire podcast about The Wife and no one in the Academy saw The Wife because no one voted for Glenn Close who has now been nominated seven times

and never won. And I'm going to let you speak for as long as you like about how delighted you were for Olivia Colman. I would just like to say we speak for as long as you like about how delighted you were for Olivia Coleman. I would just like to say we made such fun of the wife for months and months. And I,

it was no disrespect to Glenn Close, but I feel very bad for Glenn Close. Please put it on the record. I felt terrible. And part of this being like an exciting moment in the telecast was it was the only real total shock. It was like the, no one saw this coming at all.

And I think we gasped and were silent. And then you kind of got carried away on the tide of Olivia Colman's speech, which we'll talk more about. But man, I do feel bad for Glenn Close. Here's the thing. When you're nominated for an Oscar, you have to do so much work

that you don't get paid for. She did. You just go to every party. You kiss every baby. You go to every award show. And she won most of those award shows. Not everyone, but most of them. And to come up with nothing

and to be like 65 years old and clearly one of the greatest actresses of your generation and a completely laureled screen actress and then just have to like go home with your independent spirit award. That sucks. That sucks. So they showed the reactions of the nominees screen actress and then just have to like go home with your independent spirit award that sucks that sucks so they showed the reactions of the nominees on the telecast as the name was announced

and they don't always do that but the screenshots of the best actress reactions are going around on twitter and i really recommend seeking that out it's i mean glenn i thought glenn cliss handled it like really graciously and well throughout the entire as always she's the wife she's also a trained performer and is you know used to being in public and keeping it together but there's it's just she's kind of doing that like the emoji of the diagonal face just like and like that's like the exact moment and it's just and everyone else melissa mccarthy looks totally stunned olivia coleman obviously looks stunned. I think Lady Gaga is even like, oh, like Lady Gaga is not. That's her resting face in fairness.

No, but it's not like I am emotional or whatever. She just looked like a normal surprised human. So it was really, really, it was great TV and also extremely surprising. So you and I were watching the show together. And when Olivia Colman started striding to the stage, you began to levitate like Ethan Hawking first reformed. You want to recount your emotions? I found it really moving.

Actually, I did tear up because I think, I mean, she was obviously emotional and moved by it. And she's very funny, but she was also, she was doing comedy and also just really emitting love in a way that I found very charming I I used to work as a cleaner and I loved that job I did spend quite a lot of my time imagining this oh please wrap up right okay and um uh thank you and I just like her a lot it's so happy I was just smiling at the screen. You don't get to do that that often. I was also thinking about season three of The Crown, which release it tonight.

Netflix, I dare you. Come on, make good. You can turn this night around, Netflix. Put The Crown season three up right now. I feel like there's more hell to pay than there is programming to launch tonight at Netflix, unfortunately. I mean, that's a fascinating thing.

I guess we probably shouldn't go too far. And I don't want to cut off your sentiments about Olivia Colman. I'm much like Olivia Colman. I don't really have a lot of words to put around it. It's just like a bubbling of gratitude and happiness. She's lovely. I wish her a long career. It's a wonderful performance.

The favorite went one of 10. It was the most nominated film along with Roma. And it only won one award, but that was a good award to win. And it was a great speech. And she seen, here's the thing. What people want, especially from the best actress winner

is someone who seems real and really grateful and excited. I mean, that's sexist, but yes. I'm telling you, honestly, that's what people want. I know, it's true. I agree with you. I'm not saying that's what I want. I know, but we do have to just point that out, like, very plainly.

But the long history of Sally Field in that montage of you like me, you really like me, is it is straight out of that playbook. And Jennifer Lawrence tripping on the stairs. Completely. And sexist or not. I'm not saying you're a sexist, but we need to point out the double standards where we can, Sean. It is a double standard, but it sort of delivered the one moment I think

in the show where there was maybe the only other moment was Spike Lee yes and before we talk about Roma and Netflix

let's talk about Spike a little bit I don't know what Spike said for the first minute or so of his acceptance speech because it was bleeped out

which is perfectly Oscars you know the idea of censoring Spike Lee is right on the surface there I did read on Twitter that one of the things he said was don't turn the motherfucking clock on. So love it. Yes. You know, Spike is obviously overdue and we say overdue all the time about people who were nominated. Glenn Close was overdue. She did not win. Spike did win. Spike will not die Oscar

list, which is really cool. I wouldn't say that Black Klansman is in the top 10 of Spike Lee original screen or adapted screenplays, original screenplays, anything he's written, but it is, it was exciting to see him on stage. It was exciting to see Sam Jackson, give him an award. Sam Jackson got his biggest break from Spike Lee. And I thought it was a genuinely good moment. I mean, he was weirdly reading from a piece of paper and that was kind of bad. And there was some numerology there going on. Right. Well, but it was numerology about like the history of america history of slavery and then also his personal history and the women who raised him so you know i i get it i will cut people a lot of slack when they have

actually put thought and they know that it's a big moment and they want to say something of importance right um there were some other people tonight who didn't do that and we can talk about them later so i'm gonna cut him some slack on the paper. I thought it was a magical moment. It was really great. And I don't know. I find it funny. This seemed to be a night of multiple people winning single awards, but only one person getting to talk.

I felt like that happened over and over again, which is in the case of Spike Lee, you're completely fine with it. But in other cases, my heart kind of goes out to guy X and guy Y and guy Z who doesn't get to say anything on stage. Here's what I'm going to say. I respect guy X and guy Y and guy Z who know that you just got to pick one guy and you got to have your moment in the sun and share your gratitude and then keep it moving. The worst is when it's four people who have worked very hard and won an Oscar, so no disrespect, but weren't super familiar with them. And then they're just passing the microphone around and thanking random people. There's not a vision. You need a vision in the speech, even if it's a shared award. I feel like many months ago, Netflix had a vision for how to become the all-consuming

entertainment company in the world. What a segue. And they didn't get it. And there has been a lot of reporting about the great lengths and the enormous amount of money they've spent to secure a best picture for roma now we're at the stage since the oscars are over where we can say that this is not a meritocracy even a little bit we just talked about green book for 10 minutes and i green book winning best picture is a farce it happened but it's a farce roma is of course a beautiful film incredibly well made by alfonso cuaron as the show was happening and the awards were sort of being evenly meted out i was like okay the two hollywoods that's definitely the theme but in the middle kind of bursting the two

is is roma and netflix as the sort of like anti-everything, the sort of the Thanos, if you will, of popular culture and come to destroy us all. And even though I had heard about Green Book possibly winning and I thought a lot about it, I still just felt like, you know what, the campaigning that Netflix did here, the incredible work of Alfonso Cuaron, the admiration that people have for him in the Academy, the beauty of that story, I think it's going to win. And when it wins, it'll set the agenda for what the future of Hollywood really is. There was a notable commercial

in the middle of this show for The Irishman, a new film from Netflix and Martin Scorsese that you pointed out. In theaters this fall and also on Netflix, but the in theaters this fall

title card came first. So that felt like the paradigm. That felt like where we are now as a movie-going audience. We can watch a movie on Netflix and we can also go, if you go to the Vista in Los Angeles today, it is showing Roma.

And it didn't happen. The storyline didn't cohere. Right, the storyline didn't happen, but that's the reality. It exists. It is. That is how we will see movies and Netflix is how do you think that how do you think that they'll respond does that mean now that they're going to spend twice as much money to make the Irishman work as best picture next year

well it's a good question do they have to spend twice as much money on a Merns-Corsese movie I don't know I like or does the fact that it's Merns-Corsese kind of it depends on them a lot it depends on what you think is responsible for the green book win for the moonlight win and for I don't know. Or does the fact that it's Ron Scorsese kind of buy them a lot? It depends on what you think is responsible for the Green Book win, and for the Moonlight win, and for the Shape of Water win. Over the years, we have been conditioned to understand Oscar races as these strategic maneuverings where there are a series of people who are hired who you never see, you never hear about unless you read the trades. And those people are making phone calls all day.

They're hosting parties. They're putting people in front of, they're putting voters in front of nominees. They're making things happen. The last three wins kind of run counter to the idea of the overwhelming campaign. I wouldn't say the Green Book's campaign has been overwhelming. In fact, it's taken more fire than any Best Picture winner I can remember in a long, long time. Right. And still it won. The Shape of Water was sort of the opposite. It was like, this is inevitable. Guillermo del Toro is overdue. He's made a lovely film. It's kind of a soft year. Nobody feels comfortable giving it to Get Out or to

Dunkirk or to Lady Bird or even to Three Billboards. Let's just give it to something we can all kind of agree on, which is The Shape of Water and del Toro. And then Moonlight was this incredible paroxysm that people, nobody saw that coming. And it was the small story. And it was all about the new Academy and all these new members and everything that Cheryl Boone Isaacs had done to introduce a new way of thinking about best picture. So all that stuff, all that kind of Harvey Weinstein DNA and all that vicious back door dealing doesn't really feel as much a part of this. Now I'm probably sound a little naive because there's still a lot of money being spent to do this stuff. But it's notable that the most aggressive

campaigning didn't work this year. That's true. Though I think, I don't know. It's like, I do think at some point just people didn't want

to vote for a Netflix film and in the same way that they didn't want to vote for a superhero movie for many years. And still don't. And still don't. And that will continue

until well after Netflix and superhero movies have taken over the world which like by the way they already have we're living in it and eventually they'll probably win something for a movie that we is not quite as good as Roma it's like every other type of Oscar thing they won't actually win for the thing that is good and it'll be much later when it's a foregone conclusion. So best picture for Captain Marvel 3 and best picture for Roma 5. That's what we're going to get soon.

I'm looking forward to that. You want to talk a little bit more about the show? Yeah, let's do it. So, I feel like we need to devote a significant amount of time to the shallow performance.

I have a lot of feelings about it. I think, you know, we watched this show with our spouses. We did. We should thank them. Thank you to our spouses who have been wonderful in this journey of chronicling this very weird Oscars. They literally sat next to us while we looked at our phones and computers for three hours. And then they were really nice about it.

They were very supportive. And they were very supportive when you and I were both sort of like silently shrieking during that performance. Because I don't think in a way that was either positive nor negative. I was just kind of like, there is an intense awkwardness to everything that is happening here. I will say, towards the very end, I realized that I was watching with my hands over my face. And I looked at you and you were also watching with your hands covering part of your face as we actually couldn't physically stand to devote all of ourselves to the performance though Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga could stand to devote all of themselves to the performance that was a choice it was it was many choices actually somewhere along the way I feel like

you and I became Jackson Maine and Ali's mom and dad you know we're just like we're terrible parents we are way too invested in them and way too embarrassed by them but also just love them unconditionally well so you're going with I support this performance well okay I'm proud of them because it's my kid and they can't embarrass me let's talk specifically about it so Bradley Cooper very notably did not perform as Jackson Maine he performed as Bradley Cooper the adult man living in America in 2019 big mistake huge okay so I didn't think it was as as big a mistake as you did though there is something kind of reedy and um Rick Astley-ish about his voice even I wasn wasn't going to say that. Well, it's just not, it's just, there's some-

Live singing's hard, as literally every single singer tonight showed us. It's no disrespect to the actual performance. I thought they did okay. I thought Lady Gaga missed some notes, and then she crushed some other notes. You know, she's been at this a long time. It's more just that the Jackson main of it all was so indelible, and that voice that he created is such a huge part of that performance. So to go without, I thought was just kind of confusing.

I think it's a total mistake. And it was part of my issue with the Vegas performance. And I think I said during this performance is that that's what I was afraid that A Star Was Born was going to be like when we hadn't seen the movie and we were prepared for it to be some sort of beautiful disaster because I thought it was going to be two super self-involved movie slash pop stars kind of being like, isn't this great that we're here together seeing this? And in the movie, they managed to create whole other characters they did they acted they made a movie and it was phenomenal but it does not work as well in their real life personas it just feels awkward you can sense the trying the the stares become far more awkward the eye contact was very intense during this performance i mean lady gaga is famed for her ability to have an unbroken stare at another person.

She's done it many times with Tony Bennett. So it's not as if she, why should Bradley Cooper be any different? But there was just something, it was almost like a Tim and Eric sketch or something, you know, like in the way that it was so self-serious and so severe and also kind of a kind of a joke like not a joke but i was like oh my god the tension makes me want to rip the skin from my face what's happening between these two people and also the camera angles a choice they made a real choice uh the camera was quite close on both of their faces by the end especially when they sat down on the bench together. Yeah. What did you think about the decision to peer that closely? I was horrified in the moment. I was so uncomfortable. And that was, I think, when I was covering my eyes and you were also covering your eyes. And I found it extremely

awkward and over the top and it took away from the performance itself. And then something very funny happened, which is a friend of ours, Gilbert Cruz, just posted a GIF of the final moment after they're singing and they look at each other and smile in the very close camera angle. And when it's not live

and when there's not the weird sound, it just looks like a still from a movie it instantly becomes like magical movie just go watch the gif and you're like wow they recreated star is born but it there was something about the energy if you if you took an open mason jar yeah and you just swung it between their faces during that moment and you close the jar immediately inside that jar is the cure to cold fusion that's how we solve our energy crisis in this country and it was it was really it was strange it was it wasn't bad i didn't think it was bad i thought that jennifer hudson was not great no i thought that ben midler was okay i liked her dress. And she sang well. I don't care for the

song and none of those performances should have been at the Oscars. And we all know my feelings on this. It's not a show about pop stars singing. What about Kendrick Lamar's decision to not appear? Well, it seems like the right decision now. It did seem like the right decision. Would he want to be in that group of people with those weird performances? And I, you know, a lot of people thought that was a referendum on just the mess that was the telecast and the producers not knowing what they're doing. And we should talk more about the producers in a moment. But to me, that was a referendum on like the Oscars aren't a big enough deal for Kendrick

Lamar to make time to show up. He treated it like the Grammys. And that's funny because, you know, for years, the Oscars were not the Grammys. The Oscars were way more important. The Grammys. And that's funny because, you know, for years, the Oscars were not the Grammys. The Oscars were way more important. The Grammys were a joke relative to the Oscars. And I wonder if that's indicative of something generationally also that is sort of like, eh, you didn't really acknowledge Black Panther in the way that you should have at this award show. You're not really acknowledging the movies that you should.

You gave Best Picture to Green Book. Why would I show up to your award show? You guys are still recognizing movies like that. Right. picture at a green book why would i show up to your award show you guys are still recognizing movies like that right and also just the performances that you are putting on the telecast are inert and embarrassing for the most part not embarrassing but they're just uncomfortable i want to say to a person as a father of ali and jackson yeah i'm proud of them okay i'm proud of everything they've done well so no i'm proud of ali and jackson you know and i wish that ali and jackson had shown up tonight okay and i will say that that

was an as a person who loves celebrity and movie stars and is just fascinated with how public images and myths are made that was a fascinating three minutes on television i mean what a document that we all have and can study for the rest of our lives. And I'm sure we will. I mean, the memes were just... Running hot. Yeah. Running also hot was the telecast, as you said, for the first hour of this show.

And then something went off the rails. So let's talk just specifically about how this show went. There was no host. There was an opening number by Queen and Adam Lambert. And then there was a sort of bit, there was sort of a post-meta bit by Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, and Maya Rudolph, in which they identified the jokes

that they would essentially be not telling since they were not the hosts. Again, we are not your hosts this year, but if we had hosted, it probably would have gone like this. I'm Freddie Mercury. Well, I'm the wife. Buster Scruggs, I hardly know her. Well, I'm the wife. Buster Scruggs.

I hardly know her. Hey, Chad. That's a good one. Hey, Chadwick Boseman. What kind of plans you got later? These spanks are so tight, they've entered my spider-verse.

I'm Sam Elliott from Sam Elliott Mustache Wax. I thought that was pretty funny. It was great. We were chuckling. We were chuckling. Yeah. The part when Maya Rudolph did the shallow.

Fantastic. Yes. Many people know, of course, Maya Rudolph is Minnie Riperton's daughter she can sing her ass off imagine A Star is Born with Maya Rudolph how would that play I would love it I mean it would have to then be a comedy she could make a satire of A Star is Born maybe that's something we should write maybe or maybe Maya could take a dramatic turn and maybe she would finally maybe A Star is Born would finally win a damn Oscar because they love it when comedians take on dramatic roles anyway I thought that that went well and i thought the bit with melissa

mccarthy and brian tyree henry dressed up for best costume was was very funny yeah and wonderful and shout out to both of them for being so game melissa mccarthy you know despite the fact that she was nominated for best actress for playing a sort of very dour figure in lee israel is still like the funniest comic actress around you know and you could just see that she was nominated for Best Actress for playing a sort of very dour figure in Lee Israel is still like the funniest comic actress around you know and you could just see that she was just

in command in a way that a lot of people getting on that stage were not in command and also Brian Tyree Henry right next to her being just as funny super game too

I mean that was a choice to dress in that fashion and he looked great so it seemed like the show was going really well and we had enough funny people that we didn't need a host.

Yeah. The sort of, you know, interregnum stuff worked efficiently. I thought the awards that they were giving out were good. You know, Hannah Buechler and Ruth Carter won for Black Panther. That was really cool. Then things started to kind of shift. Did you ever feel like we needed a host to come in and give the show some vivacity an hour or an hour and a half in? I didn't. I really, I thought, and I think Bill Simmons

talks about this a fair amount of like, a good thing to do is just to have famous people come in and do like very short concentrated bits. If you think about awards shows past, it is always, there's always one pair of presenters that are very funny and they do a little repartee and everyone always thinks, oh, they should host next year. And they actually shouldn't host next year. They should just get to do, present and do another bit. And you have a lot of starry people doing bits. That to me works well.

At some point, you tune into the Oscars to have people win awards, but also to see famous people. So, you know, more is more in that particular case. I thought some of that was effective and some of it wasn't. I felt myself missing the kind of Will Ferrell, Dwayne The Rock Johnson figures who kind of can reliably come on and just be entertaining. You know, Will Ferrell and Kristen Wiig for years would do a bit together and for them not to be there was unfortunate. What did you make of the decision to have non-filmmakers present the Best Picture nominees throughout the telecast? So we had Serena Williams williams for a star is born that was personally very exciting for me we had john

lewis presenting for green book right we what who else was presenting there well i believe that uh mike myers and dana carvey presented for bohemian rhapsody and they did the whole again that more queen yes um tom morello for. That was kind of a curious one. Yeah. I feel like I've never really understood why they need to present the Best Picture nominees at great length throughout the movie. I mean, I do get it. It's because people haven't seen the movie. Exactly. I totally do understand that.

And I understand that you're building a sense of momentum throughout the show in order to make the last award actually mean something. So, I mean, I understand. That's never the part of the show that is for me. So in that sense, when you have Serena Williams, who I adore, presenting one of my favorite movies of the year, great, why not? They always seem a little random, but I'm not mad at it.

Do you think that there should be no more hosts ever for anything? You mean like this podcast? Sure, why not? I noticed that the Ringer's Twitter account shared that with us. Yeah, thanks guys for that. Shots to us, I suppose.

Love you guys. Yeah. For awards shows, why don't we just keep it to awards shows? Yes, no more award show hosts. Like game shows still need hosts.

Yeah. I think that that could be a decent idea. Okay. Who will, you think that we'll get it soon? You think people will be like, they're really onto something here by fucking up the Kevin Hart situation? Okay. Who will, you think that we'll get it soon? You think people will be like,

they're really onto something here by fucking up the Kevin Hart situation? No, I mean, I'm sure that they'll try to get a host next year because I'm sure that there's going to be a ratings issue and then people will think

that the only way to fix the ratings is to have, like, the most famous person in the world and it'll probably be the Rock hosting next year. Right? I think that that makes a lot of sense.

Do you think the ratings will be significantly down? I mean, I have thought that the ratings would be down from the beginning, which has nothing to do with the caliber of the show or even who won, but just because people don't watch live television anymore and people can just check in. And I just, that's how it works. Netflix exists. But I think that the response to that will

possibly not be as rational as we might like. I fought pretty hard when they announced that four of the categories would not be on the telecast. I was kind of a baby about it in a way that I think a lot of people who are Oscar followers and Oscar chroniclers tend to be babies about this kind of thing. But it did dawn on me that a lot of the acceptance speeches in the categories were pretty bad. And they were not entertaining and they were bad television and they kind of slowed the show down. And it made me wonder,

were the producers kind of right about that? And would that be such a grave injustice? Now, I think it would be unfortunate if someone couldn't get recognized for their incredible work. You know, if they decided to remove production design instead of, say, hair and makeup, you wouldn't have had Hannah Buechler's speech, which was awesome.

One of the best of the night. So that's complicated. But, you know, the best hair and makeup styling, that was not a strong set of speeches. Kind of like a performance art. But I think that the producers were right at a lot of things. For example, the songs. They weren't originally going to originally gonna have all of them and obviously that's a personal preference but the song performance is dragged and they slowed the show down I still think sometimes

we're gonna get good speeches and sometimes we're gonna get bad speeches and the nature of the Oscars is to hand out awards and there's no real fair way to shunt people to the commercial breaks unless possibly you respectfully give the shorts their own awards show that isn't the Oscars, which is still my suggestion. But so I don't know that they were wrong. Well, I think that they were wrong. I don't know that you were wrong in being mad about the categories. Just like, I don't think that cutting four or three awards from the telecast is going to ensure that you get 21 perfect speeches anyway. I think it's circumstantial too. Like if Tim Blake Nelson sang the Buster Scruggs song

and Emily Blunt sang the Mary Poppins song, I might've felt differently about those performances. Now the Jennifer Hudson song can go away forever. I don't really care about that. But to have famous actors performing songs that they sang live, now I understand why

they may feel a little tense about doing that in front of all of those people and 30 million people on television a la Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga having some awkwardness on stage.

It's understandable. But I do think it would have given it a little bit of immediacy, dynamism. It would have been more interesting than to just see, you know, David Rawlings,

who's a wonderful musician and songwriter, singing a country tune, wearing a spangled cowboy suit. It was just kind of like, what is this for? And the comments that the producers had in the Times a couple of weeks ago

about the idea of just going, you know, presenter award, presenter award, and that being the show being boring. That's not boring. That actually was, those were the best parts of the show. Yeah, it moved pretty well. And as long as you have a recognizable person introducing the next category and you let

them do 30 seconds, you know, I thought that went really well. The low points were when they tried to produce it out. See the clip that was played of the new Academy Museum being built that is not completed. And so it was just a construction time lapse. Yeah. I mean, I understand why the Academy wants to tout that. It's probably the single biggest new venture they've had in over 20 years. It's a huge endeavor. They're spending a lot of money on it, but Jim and Jane America, like just don't care about that. They don't care about the Academy's museum. That was, and also to use Laura Dern in that way, who's like

a great actress. And then to just be a stooge for the Academy museum is like right in the middle of the telecast. That was really dull. And also, even if the point is to get regular people in America to, to teach them about it and be like this, you can come visit this. I mean,

wait till it's finished. It's not done. Okay. In fairness to the Academy. Otherwise there were only two montages. There was one at the very beginning, which I thought was quite a curious compendium of 2018 movies

that included like all sorts of non-Academy relevant movies like Tag. Right. And then there was one at the end which was In Memoriam. And In Memoriam was fine.

They forgot a couple of people as they always do. But they didn't do that thing where they were like, here are a hundred historical movies about bank robberies. Right. The Academy loves to rob banks. Right. And they didn't do the thing where a bunch of people who were

nominated just talk about you know what they saw on a screen when they were a child yes that's right like which you know sometimes i like when errol morris does those i like them but when some guy who works for the academy does them it's not as good so i thought that the show was relatively seamless though i will say by the time we got to hour three, I turned to my wife and I was like, can you remind me what we liked about this? And she said, I feel like you liked something. Yeah. But couldn't think of what it was. That's true. And I worry that that's essentially the legacy of this show is that it was like, this was fine. And we just spent all these goddamn months doing this podcast and it was fine.

Well, it's, it was fine is better than it was a disaster was fine and we just spent all these goddamn months doing this podcast and it was fine well it's it was fine it's better than it was a disaster that's true and i think i will also say after eileen was like hey i think you like something maybe there was the olivia colman speech which was a real moment good point and then green book one which was a real different type of moment it was if i may it was moment. So these things always lag in a little bit, a little. I don't think, I think it went pretty well. I think also the expectations were just so low that it really did clear the bar. It just kind of worked.

It was a show. And I think the takeaways will be more about the awards and how we feel about the actual winners than whether or not there were enough montages. It's interesting. I think seeing from one angle, you can say, wow, Mahershala Ali, Regina King, Olivia Colman, Black Panther, First Man got a win. There were a lot of things that happened that I think film lovers or people who are interested in a kind of progression inside of the Academy can point to and say, that was really

great. And then you have this kind of like just a shit sandwich with Green Book. It's like, there's very few people publicly are going to be like, hell yeah, Green Book won. Like, show me that person. And it'll probably be the first time I meet them. You won't see that person because they are just like in a big office somewhere in Hollywood and they're very successful and they're defending their success and their version of the industry which I agree I agree with you there are a lot of individual things that happen tonight that are very exciting and then a lot of things that feel familiar or old-fashioned or kind of a bummer and maybe not even kind of just like a plain bummer and it's that has certainly been

the story of this award season and of Hollywood in general of things are changing and not as fast as we would like and some people are very mad about that and it's you know kind of true of the world at large and I don't know I mean it is it's the final award was a bummer but there were some good things there were some good things. There were some good things. We're going to be talking a lot more in the future on this show about what's happening in Hollywood and why things are changing and whether Netflix is going to have to buck up and try to get a 2020 award. But for now, this concludes the live version of our conversation. Amanda, thank you very much. Sean, thank you.

Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Did you know not all alcohol products are required to list their ingredients? That was news to me. Bud Light is changing the game. They believe that we deserve to know our beer's ingredients, so they put an ingredients label right on their packaging. Bud Light, brewed with hops, barley, water, and rice. No corn syrup, no preservatives, and no artificial flavors. Find out what ingredients are in your beer.

Bud Light. Enjoy responsibly. AB Bud Light Beer. St. Louis, Missouri. Amanda, we're back on the big picture. We've been talking about the complicated and vexing results of some of this award show, but not all of the categories. So now we're going to take a little stroll through

essentially all 24 categories. We'll do this fairly quickly, but I just want to get your thoughts on the brutal snubbing of Thanos and Avengers Infinity War in the best visual effects category. So we're going to start right there. I don't know why you're mad. This is your movie.

First man, it's your time. It's complicated, right? Because I chose, my pick was Avengers Infinity War. I should also say, man, I just did really poorly tonight on your picks. We did too. What a messy ballot I had. I mean, how'd you do? You get 16 out of 24? I didn't count. I think

so. Something like that. You and I were close. I had 14 out of 24 and I made this whole big spiel in the piece that I wrote about how I wasn't going to vote with my heart. I was going to vote with my head because of the get out issue last year. And then I looked down my ballot and all these fucking votes are just votes with my heart. Like, what am I doing? I don't going to vote with my heart. I was going to vote with my head because of the get out issue last year. And then I looked down my ballot and all these fucking votes are just votes with my heart. Like, what am I doing? I don't know.

It's good that it means something to you. You know, I wish it meant I wish that everyone took it this seriously. So it's good. Well, I take Avengers Infinity War seriously, but apparently the visual effects branch does not. And they awarded First Man, which, of course, has wonderful visual effects. Historically in this category, basically the most high toned action movie that is also nominated for Best Picture tends to win. None of these movies fit the bill there, but First Man is the closest. So I think that's why it won.

Yeah. Alison Herman wrote a great piece on The Ringer for our series Make the Case, which was about movies that weren't supposed to win. But she wrote about First Man because it wasn't supposed to win, and then it and i think her case still stands good on her yeah good job allison yeah uh makeup and hairstyling so there's really only one winner here and it won yeah uh this speech was i just it was messy yeah i in some ways like at some point it kind of looped back to wow what a television moment this is like this is really is really, really getting tough. Yeah. I mean, Greg Canham has been at this for a while and he's an older gentleman

and he's already won a bunch of Oscars. He won an Oscar for his work in Mrs. Doubtfire. Have you seen that film? Believe it or not, I have. Okay. And yeah, there just were three people on stage and they didn't know when they should be talking and they were all kind of fighting for time.

But there was no chance that Mary Queen of Scots or Border was going to win in this category. So of course, Vice locked it up. Anim film we all picked Bao and Bao won yes I thought Domei Shi's acceptance speech was nice it was nice uh there's not really a whole lot to say about these these shorts categories I got two of them wrong I don't really care about them that much to be honest the live action short went to. That was quite an apoplectic acceptance speech from the makers of skin. The image of a young white woman

just screaming Fox search lane with Titanic arms out. It will just haunt me for a long time. That's very funny. I don't know what else to say. That wasn't my favorite moment of the telecast, I would say. All right.

I would also say that I didn't, I wasn't super crazy about the acceptance speech for period and end of sentence. You did predict this one. I did predict this one because, you know, when you don't give awards to actual women filmmakers, although in this case they did give awards, but you know, when you're not taking them seriously in the big categories, then you're going to give the award to the women's empowerment movie. Yes. For every green book, there is a menstruation movie. And here we had one. You know what?

Their message was spot on. Whether or not the speech itself was how I would have delivered it, the message is good. Someone in the room, I'm not going to say who said, it looks like there are five Lena Dunham's on stage. Yeah. Okay. Incredible moment when we were watching. Sound mixing, Bohemian Rhapsody.

Sound editing, Bohemian Rhapsody. Sound editing, Bohemian Rhapsody. You know, they won the sound editing awards for the Guild. And there's a lot of sound in this movie. A lot. It was quite loud. So loud. Yeah. You know, these are bad.

Like, this is not. This specifically should be first man for. Excuse me. It should be first man for sound editing and A Star is Born for sound mixing. But that isn't how it shook out. Bohemian Rhapsody won both. Right. People like Queen.

They like Queen. I like Queen too. Costume design. Good moment. It was great. Ruth Carter, former guest on The Big Picture. Maybe she'll be back someday. But now that she has an Oscar, she doesn't have to come back.

I thought she gave a great speech. She did. She gave an immediate shout out to Spike Lee, who of course gave her a big break in the industry. And she's worked with him many times. That was nice. Any thoughts? I just really enjoyed it.

I was excited to see her up there. She had given some thought. She had a paper, but I thought that she sold it really well. I like it when people are prepared because it means that your speech can be something larger

than just like a series of thank yous. And that has its appeals, especially when it's Olivia Colman, but hers was about her career and, you know, all the people who helped her

and what it meant for her to win this award and it was great. We talked a little bit already about Hannah Buechler's speech for Black Panther, also a good moment. Can I just say also,

great dress, great glasses. The whole, everything that was happening was amazing. Incredible. She looked like a character from Blade Runner 2049. It was awesome.

She looked great. Film editing. This one is the bummer. Let's just untangle it just a little bit. We've talked about it on the show a couple of times. I think we've done a real service

to our listeners by explaining some of these things. I'm just going to brag about that. Okay. I hope our listeners feel that way. This was a specific case in which I chose with my heart and thought it was my head, but it was my heart. And I like what Hank Corwin does in his movies. And I like what he and Adam McKay have done together. And I thought that he was going to be honored here. And I should have known all along that Bohemian Rhapsody was going to win. They won the Editing Guild Award. Mm-hmm. here and I should have known all along that Bohemian Rhapsody was going to win. They won the Editing Guild Award. There certainly is a lot of editing in Bohemian Rhapsody. I can only

imagine the carnage on the floor in the editing room there. Right. And that's the general understanding, right? Is that within the editing community, this was for, man, it was a really tough job that you had and you guys made a movie and it went on the screens and everything, which was only because of the editing because you guys saved it. So, you know, whatever. If we're giving awards for effort instead of final result, then sure. I think honestly the editing in Green Book is better than the editing in Bohemian Rhapsody. We're not in kindergarten, so I don't think that you should be giving out trophies just for trying hard.

But here we are. That's a good point. We're not in kindergarten. Cinematography. This, of course, went to Roma, Alfonso Cuaron. I think Alfonso Cuaron shouldn't win any more Oscars. Now, that's not a judgment against him. I just think that I have Cuaron fatigue.

Your wife said something very funny, I believe, during his third speech, where she was like, it's just like Russian doll. He keeps showing back up here and giving a slightly different speech. And I will say again, to preparation, to his credit, he had clearly thought a little bit about what each specific award meant. And he kind of had a quote or something prepared. But he opened every speech by thanking Marina de Tavira and Yulia Tzaparizio. And so every time it happened, it was that sort of the alarm clock going off in Groundhog Day. And I thought we were going to get it a fourth time and we didn't. Yeah. So, you know, this is fine. I really think it's weird how little conversation there was for

Matthew Libetique for A Star Is Born. And I'm sure the hive will be like, you guys in A Star Is Born, shut the hell up. But Matthew Libetique is one of the best living cinematographers. He is Darren Aronofsky's cinematographer. Darren Aronofsky, regardless of what you think of his movies, is one of the most fascinating, progressive filmmakers in the world, in part because he and Matty Libetique make movies together and they don't look like anything else. There's always like something new in the movie. And I felt that way about A Star Is Born.

I completely agree with all of this. And can I just say that now that we're kind of, we're deep into this Oscars territory, all the people who are like you guys in A Star Is Born, whatever, y'all happy now? Green Book won. You feeling good? How you feeling?

Let me know. Don't actually. I don't want to hear about it. Don't let us know. We're good. We're all set. Man, Green Book. Jesus.

Original score. This was a surprise to me, honestly. Ludwig Gorenson won for Black Panther and he gave a good speech. Yes. And he did a good job. He gave a great speech at the Grammys as well

a couple weeks ago. He did. He's halfway to EGOT which is nice for him. This is a good score. It's actually quite a complicated piece of music given the way that he is

integrating kind of the marvelness of it all with the classic African sounds that he's trying to integrate into the story plus that sort of like sweeping Alan Silvestri Hans Zimmer

kind of propulsive feeling that you need in an action movie. And I don't know, he did a great job. Yeah, we're not mad. We both, so I want to talk about this one because we both picked Nicholas Bertel. Yes, once again, I voted with my heart. Right, but, and we very much voted with our hearts

and I was even like, this is like the one good thing that happens. That was my reasoning. But I will say that I also checked the betting odds and it was for Nicholas Bertel, for Beale Street Kid Talk. And so I'm just wondering whether the betting odds are formed purely by people that we know screenshotting the Beale Street soundtrack on Twitter and just being like, hey, it's my writing music, which, by the way, great choice. Everyone I know is like in that experience and it's a lovely community to be

a part of. But where else are the odds coming from? What was your writing music before this? I don't use writing music. So you sit silently. Yeah, it has to be silent. Wow, you are a sociopath. You knew that already. Next category, original song, That Went to Shallow.

Have you heard Shallow? Can I just say, it was a real tense moment when Lady Gaga insisted that our man Mark Ronson speak. Oh, he did a good job. He did a great job. He did exactly the right thing, which was just to be like, you know, we just need to thank Lady Gaga. Genuflecting at her altar. Perfectly handled. I thought Gaga's speech was okay. It was a little bit like, I work hard, which is maybe not- She got there. She got there. There was like, there was that moment where little bit like, I work hard, which is maybe not. She got there. She got there. There was like, there was that moment where she was like, I worked really hard for this. And there was like a pause that was slightly too long.

And I was like, oh, no. I know. But she steered it around to, you know, believing in herself and not taking no for an answer and perseverance. But does anybody think Lady Gagaaga doesn't work hard she's the work hardingest performer i've ever seen in my life she meant it in a different way but yes well it's all part and parcel though i don't know i i that was probably not the best lady gaga speech i've seen in the last three months no but it did seem a little bit more um of the moment and real as opposed to i mean and we've told the 99 people in a room thing

a thousand times. And I think she's given a few speeches that were actually with emotion. But this was like, wow, she's reacting to winning an Oscar. That's true. And she has an Oscar now. Yeah. And that's why you turned the show on. It's incredible to me that Bradley Cooper took on like nine or 10 different jobs in

this movie. And the one award that this movie won, he was not allowed to get on stage. Like five people were on stage and there was no Bradley Cooper. It's astonishing. This is, it's going to age so poorly. Best documentary feature.

It went to Free Solo, which I think is what we both picked. Yes. And, you know, I thought Chai Vasarely and Jimmy Chin seemed a little like unprepared. Yeah.

But, it wasn't a bad speech. No, I think that they were prepared. I think that maybe their day job isn't like getting in front of millions of people. No, it's climbing mountains. Right, exactly. But so, you know, I think there are people who are not as versed in just the performance aspect of an accepting award, which is fine because it's not their job to be performers. You'd think they wouldn't be nervous, though, standing in front of Bradley Cooper's mom. You know, I don't know.

Okay. I will say also the number of people who texted me about Sonny from Free Solo being up on stage. And I'm team Sonny. I'm glad that they have found a way to make a relationship that works. Sure. I mean, good for Alex and Sonny. I have nothing bad to say about either one of them.

I'm incredibly impressed by his feats and her willingness to sit in a van. Foreign language film went to Roma. We've already discussed the multiple iterative acceptance speeches of Alfonso Cuaron. Did you think that there was any chance that we would have like a weird Cold War moment? I didn't think there was. Yeah, I thought there was maybe like a 10% chance. Not enough to pick it on the ballots. But I thought in part just because the Oscars are nutty. And so you could see them giving best foreign film to Cold War and best picture to Roma. Fortunately, neither happened. I know.

There was a part of me that wanted to pick that. And I guess it's good that I didn't because my ballot is already kind of a nightmare. But... See Cold War, see Shopliftersifters both great can't say i would recommend the others quite as much roma is of course very important see burning see burning yes not nominated not nominated um and this is exciting you want to talk about it all right next one animated feature sean what won the oscar for animated feature this year vault me into the motherfucking spiderverse because that's where I live now

that's where all of the put all the Oscars in the spiderverse so here's what I'd like to say is that when we don't make that face at me

this is gonna be fine okay when we announced that we're figuring out what to do with this show after the Oscars more than one person asked whether

it would just be me finally watching spiderverse and then talking about it and i have made my conditions known to sean but i will now make them known to the rest of you there are many films that are special to me that sean has never seen that's true seen basically like every film on earth except the 10 films that i love the most in the world it's fine it's a normal friend what do you think that says yeah do you want me to really answer that question?

We can unpack it on future pods. So I will watch Spider-Verse if Sean will watch a film of my choosing. You have to choose right now. Okay. Sense and Sensibility. Okay. I've not seen Sense and Sensibility. Yes.

It's nominated for an Oscar. Oscar nominated. It's freaking incredible. Okay. I will watch Sense and Sensibility soon. And then we can talk about the experience. Yes. Yes. Okay.

I am putting my money down right now that says Spider-Verse better than Sense and Sensibility. Just putting that in the universe right now. I don't know that the goal of this needs to be for us to have a death match to figure out which of these movies is better. It's about cultural exchange. Tonight was a night of competition. All right. And Green Book showed us bare-knuckled competition is all that matters in this world. I was very happy for Spider-Man

Into the Spider-Verse which really has come to be one of my favorite movies and the more that I saw a lot of these other movies go through the meat grinder of award season

and the more I got to think about what they're really about and why they're meaningful to me I have found myself clinging more closely to this stuff that really resonated the first time.

First Reformed Into the Spider-Verse and Green Book. Just kidding. Adapted screenplay. We talked a lot about Spike. Poor Charlie Wachtel, David Rabinowitz, and Kevin Wilmot, who will never be seen speaking on television again

and didn't get a chance to speak here. This wasn't surprising. No, but it was pleasing. Yeah, it was well put. It was pleasing. You know, Nicole Holofcener gave a nice speech at the Indie Spirit Awards on Saturday. And I thought for a minute there that she was going to sneak in there after winning that and the WGAs. But not to be the case.

Yeah. It's too bad. Original screenplay. This was maybe the lowest moment of the night for me. Because this was when I knew that things were really going badly. the the scales had tipped yeah officially and I mean it's notable that the show went green book original screenplay followed shortly thereafter by spike and adapted it showed did show really that dichotomy we were talking about earlier in the show I just can't get over the muted I wouldn't say that the reception was muted to the win,

but I would say that the speeches were very muted. And there was something lightly rehearsed. I wonder if they had a clear sense that they were going to win this one. I really thought that the favorite was going to win. As did I. Alas. In general, until Olivia Colman won, we were pretty surprised by the total shutout of the favorite,

considering it was tied with Roma for the most nominations. Yes, I think it was 0 for 8 at that point, maybe. Actress in a supporting role. As usual, this was basically the first award given out. I believe it was the first award given out. Regina King. Great speech. She looked great.

Very deserving. She deserved it. Yeah. Fairly uncomplicated. There's kind of a subtext going on here, which is that Amy Adams is entering the Glenn Close zone. Yeah. I believe Amy Adams has five nominations and no wins.

That sounds right. And she's also definitely one of the most recognizable and successful actresses, both from a sort of award standpoint, but also just she's in a lot of popular movies. I don't really know anybody that doesn't like her. I like Amy Adams. I wouldn't say she's like my passion project, but I like her a lot. Nor mine. Right. My only passion project

is Spider-Verse. Okay. Can we just say, just the cutaways to Amy Adams, who was just really lounging in her seat in a very relaxed,

not too invested in this sort of way that I really respected. She knew she had no shot and was comfortable with it. Yeah, she was just like, whatever. Actor in a supporting role.

I gave my rant about this last week. I think it's cool that Mahershala Ali won. And, you know, it's too bad for Sam Elliott and Richard E. Grant in particular, who I think are older and won't have as many great roles as the ones that they had in Can You Ever Forgive Me and A Star Is Born, respectively. And maybe they lost their final chance to win an award and Mahershala just won one two years ago. Here's my only new insight on this. This morning, I was asking my husband, who watched this whole award show with us, what he was most excited about.

I was like, what are you actually excited about at the Oscars? He was like, I honestly can't remember the first thing he said. And then he's like, Mahershala winning, which is just because people like Mahershala. And I was just like, the idea of seeing Mahershala on stage, most people would say, yes, yes, I would like to see that. That's something that I would look forward to. And it kind of just seems no more complicated than that. A lot of people were like, oh, I would like to see Mahershala. And I identify with that, even though I agree with you that it's probably not the best second Oscar for him. You said very soon after his win that he'll probably have a lot more great performances that will go unrewarded because he's already used up his Oscar. Yeah, they're going to be like, you did it.

I mean, I can't think of, there are only a handful of occasions in which people have won consecutively or two out of every three years and inevitably what happens after that is even if they're nominated in the future they never win again yeah um with the exception of like katherine hepburn you know there's only a handful of people who've won more than two anyway but yeah i don't know it's weird it's like maher shalali's got better work in front of him than green book he's legit one of the best actors around and is a star now so So I just thought it was strange. Actor in a leading role. Yeah. Okay.

You know, it's not going to age well. No. It's not going to age well. I don't really think it's aging that well right now. You know, it was so fascinating to watch so many people respond to the lip syncing clip. Just being like, he's not even acting. I'm like, no one realized that five months ago? Literally all he does in that clip is just like his eyes get really, really wide.

That's it. I don't know. It's done. What can we do? You know who else is in the Glenn Close zone? Willem Dafoe. Yeah. The Close zone, that's a new ongoing bit here, just so you know.

We're going to start to talk about that going forward. You know who's close to the Close Zone? Who's that? Bradley Cooper. Wow, he is. He's had five as well. Once you get five and you get no love, you're in the Close Zone. And I feel bad for these guys.

Christian Bale, he's good. He's all set. Bradley, he'll be back. Vigo, he's also approaching the Close Zone. I think he for these guys. You know, Christian Bale, he's good. He's all set. Bradley, he'll be back. Vigo, he's also approaching the close zone. I think he's got three. Yeah, but I mean, no one wanted to see him win for this one. No, that would have been rough. I wish Vigo Mortensen well, and I'm sure he'll be back.

I will say he really bounced back from quite a gaffe. Yes. So, you know, dropping the N-word in the middle of a Q&A. A Q&A I happened to be attending. In November, right? In November. It was not great. Yeah.

Well, I don't think it's really going to affect his career in any meaningful way. Actress in a leading role. We kind of spilled our guts on this one already. Olivia Colman won. Lovely for her. That was so exciting. It was nice. That was great.

It was a good moment. Can we just listen to a little more of her speech? Just play a little more. And my mom and my dad, well, you know, and my kids are at home and watching. Look, well, if you're not, then we're kind of well done. But I sort of hope you are. This is not going to happen again. And, uh... I don't really have any big reflections other than I think it's possible that

all of the other nominees may never be nominated again. I think we may never see Melissa McCarthy, Lady Gaga, Glenn Close, and Yelisa Aparicio in here. I think they have to give Glenn Close a makeup award. This was the makeup award. Yeah, but they screwed it up so much. This is the kind of bullshit that they do.

I really, honestly. It's the inverted Sally Field. They don't like her. They really don't like her. They do. In five years. What should we bet? Albert Nobbs, too?

What do you think it'll be for? I really, really think in five years she will have another nomination. I don't know if she'll win. Okay. But the other. Maybe you should get to'll win. Okay. But the other... Maybe you should get to writing tonight. Okay. Open up final draft.

Yeah. Dangerous Liaisons 2. More Liaisons. Dangerous Sir Liaisons. I like to more Liaisons. Okay, thank you. That was a good... You can stop there.

That's the best I can do. And you can just write that part for her. Okay. And she can be, she can Valmont her way to an Oscar. I would love to write a part for her because then I could maybe take it to her house. She seems great to hang out with. I really recommend her Instagram

and, you know, she's got the dog. She does have the dog. The dog has a title, I think. It's like Lord or Sir or something. Whatever. It's fine. Notable that tonight we had another split in Best Directing and Best Picture. We had this a couple of years ago, of course, when Damien Chazelle won Best Director thing whatever it's fine uh notable that tonight we had another split in best directing and best

picture uh we had this a couple of years ago of course when damien chazelle won best director for la la land and then moonlight went on to win best picture last year we had the match-up with guillermo del toro this year back to the split alfonso cuaron gets his second academy award for best director that's fine he's very good at directing he's wonderful at directing can I just say I Roma's just a

tremendous achievement it is such an amazing film and I really feel like we've gotten so sour about it and I just need to say again

yeah and we kind of dismissed it to the Netflix of it all and the also ran and the is it like good for the Oscars?

If a movie that people watched at home and thought was boring, you know, whatever it's, it's triumphant. I like, I really, I'm reclaiming Roma. I think it's a masterpiece. Okay. I'm going the other way. Not that it's not a masterpiece, but it is the classic thing where his two best movies are E2 Mama Tambien and Children of Men. And the two movies

that he's recognized for are Gravity and this movie. And it's because the Academy is fucking late. They're always late. Yes, that's fine. They're always late.

I think Roma is better than you're giving it credit for. But that's fine. I'm not saying it's bad. He's an incredible filmmaker. I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you.

Let's just... It didn't win so we can be nice about Roma now how about that speaking of not good at this Green Book

so we talked about it a lot let's just talk about the other movies just a touch and kind of how we'll remember them I think it was notable that Vice was introduced

first by Tom Morello because I think it is the one that will have the people will forget it most quickly would be my guess or maybe maybe it has a rediscovery I've been wondering about this you know because it took some a bit of a critical drubbing which we talked about on the show right after its release and I'll be curious to see what its identity is in five or ten years if people rediscover it and

say actually this was really savvy or it was right on or it wasn't too uh sticky or or gimmicky i think that it will actually live on a bit sooner just because like we still talk about dick cheney and he is still around and when movies this high profile are made about historical figures they just become a part of the conversation you can't really talk about like any president without thinking about the not any but it depends i mean like there are different examples of this for sure. I don't think anybody really talks about Oliver Stone's kind of twin portraits. Like no one talks about Nixon and no one talks about W. And those are two movies that were very high profile when they were coming out.

There was a lot of noise around them. Anthony Hopkins was nominated for best actor. Who's the last person that brought up Nixon to you? The Latin, no one, I guess. It's probably like me at dinner like four years ago. Like, were we talking about it on the Dave rewatchables? Because we were talking about the. But in general, it's like, it's a movie without a big legacy.

So I'll be curious if it goes in that way or if it goes, you know, maybe more like Dave. Yeah. Where it's more beloved over time. Yeah. I just kind of think, in part because it is, it tries to do so much explaining and there is so much, like, recent history and, like, education and policy packed into it, essentially, that I wonder if it'll worm its way into. Like, I've invoked the unitary executive in various, like, podcasts that we've done a couple times, which is not. That's because it's meaningful to you as a manager of people in the real world.

No, but that lodged itself into my head somehow because of the way that they made that scene. And I think about Chaney. It just is somehow more in my brain because movies do that in a way that a news article sometimes won't. So I am just kind of curious if enough people saw it,

whether parts of it stick in people's brain. Black Klansman, I think, will rightly take its place as the sixth best Spike Lee movie. Yeah. But the thing that got him an Oscar, which is good. I wonder if there will be a push now

towards him getting a Best Director in the way that there was for Martin Scorsese. That would be great. Yeah. I'll be curious to see what he does in the future because he's really spread himself out in a lot of directions. He has a Netflix series. He's doing more genre stuff. I'll be curious to see what he does in the future because he's really spread himself out in a lot of directions. He has a Netflix series.

He's doing more genre stuff. I'll be curious to see where he goes. Black Panther. Black Panther's really great. There was like five minutes tonight where I thought maybe

Me too. Maybe Black Panther could happen. When Ruth Carter and Hannah Beekler won in succession I was like, oh wow.

That thing is happening where it's going to win like seven awards and you didn't realize it was going to happen and all of a sudden you realize that that SAG award

was actually more meaningful for Best Ensemble than we realized. But we had forgotten that it got no acting nominations and Kugler wasn't nominated. Tough beat. Yeah.

Tough beat and we were wrong about that. The favorite. So, Yorgos Lanthimos' next project is an adaptation of a Jim Thompson novel called Population 1280. It's pretty gritty, tough stuff

from the guy who wrote The Killer Inside Me. I'm not sure how to feel about that. I suspect it will be very different from the favorite. Yes. Well, part of the favorite success is that it's kind of different from well that's not true it is in keeping

with the lobster but it's like way different than Killing of a Sacred Deer like he manages to he toggles and it seems like he's toggling back

toggling back to the darkness yeah I prefer the the weird comedy I might too I might too and it's notable that the lobster

and Dogtooth and this movie The Favorite are sort of his most beloved movies. Those are the movies with a little bit more of a cockeyed sense of humor about the world. We'll see what happens. Star is Born, what can you say? Bradley's coming back as Leonard Bernstein. Show me the way. This is just a real shame.

It was a shame. Got it. Got it on screen. Bohemian Rhapsody, not good. No. There. It was a shame. Gutted. Gutted on screen. Bohemian Rhapsody, not good. No. There won't be a sequel, mercifully.

Unless maybe the Adam Lambert story? I was just like, are you sure? Are you sure? Good point. There's so much Queen tonight. And I mean,

we can conclude by talking about Roma and Green Book and the, what I thought for a long time was the race and turned out to be the race

and I'm disappointed with the outcome but I also think it was an interesting choice by Hollywood to say like not yet like you're not Netflix can't have it yet

it just kind of seems like a little bit of denial and a little bit of they can't stave off everything, but you can stave off this. You know, I've been thinking a lot about the Kevin Hart interview on Ellen, which I thought was such a weird choice by everyone involved. But my reading of it was Ellen wanted to talk about it with Kevin Hart because she felt that what Kevin Hart had gone through was wrong. And they spent a lot of time talking about just how he was being held accountable for old tweets. But really, they spent most of the time talking about all these people who were saying mean things to him and how unreasonable that was. And it's not fair.

And you can't be held accountable. You know, you can't let all these randos get you down. And it just really felt like two people from a position of power trying to hold on to their power and trying to like, how dare anyone speak to us or how dare anyone challenge this power base that we have built for ourselves. And that just is kind of the theme of the whole Oscar season for me. You can read me writing about that very thing on TheRinger.com tomorrow morning, more than likely. We're going to be back soon and then sooner. So we'll be back later this week with a mailbag chat. So please feel free to tweet at The Big Pick and ask us any burning questions you may have about green book

or Roma or Netflix or Bohemian Rhapsody or Rami Malek or Glenn Close's dog or Olivia Coleman's wonderful speech. And after that, we're going to come back and we're going to keep doing this show. It's not going to be quite an Oscar show. I would say that stardom is a core theme of what we're going to be talking about. Yes. And I hope you'll stick with us. This has been very fun to do this with you, Amanda. Likewise. Okay, see you soon.

Thanks, everyone. you