The Big Picture - Our Golden Globes Predictions, Plus ‘Cold War’ Director Pawel Pawlikowski | The Oscars Show (Ep. 113)

Episode Date: January 2, 2019

We share our ballot picks for all 14 movie categories ahead of Sunday’s Golden Globes and preview whether ‘A Star Is Born’ is the juggernaut we think it is (0:50). Then Sean sits down with ‘Cold War’ writer-director Pawel Pawlikowski to discuss how he crafted a detailed, memory-driven film about characters modeled after his parents (54:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelley, and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. After a three-year hiatus, Bill Simmons is back with his NBA trade value rankings for the 2018 and 2019 season. You can check that out, as well as our year-in-review articles wrapping up everything 2018 on the site. Also, throughout the holidays, we will be sticking to our regular podcast schedule, so make sure to tune in to your favorite shows as usual. Happy holidays from The Ringer.

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Bird Box. No, I'm just kidding. This is the Oscar show, Amanda. Hello. Welcome to 2019. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you as well. We're here to talk about the Oscars, but really we're here to talk about the Golden Globes because of course the Golden Globes are this weekend. We're going to preview this lovely award show. Amanda, you ready to do this? I am. I have my picks on everything.

We have ballots. We want to know about your ballots, but first we'll share ours. Where should we begin? What category? Let's start with your favorite category. Okay. You want to just lead this in? ours where should we begin what category let's start with your favorite category okay you want to you want to just lead this in you put it number one on our rundown here and i don't want to steal

your glory in the new year sean so this is best motion picture animated which is a category that i enjoy uh and a category that amanda does not we'll talk a little bit about why you don't later in the show but let's just let's just go through these picks we're going to be as efficient as possible because later in the show we have an interview just go through these picks. We're going to be as efficient as possible because later in the show, we have an interview with Pavel Pavlikovsky, the filmmaker who made a movie called Cold War, which you and I talked about last week on this show. Yeah. Beautiful film. Great conversation with him. I want you to be able to check that out. So let's get right into those ballots. Here are the five nominees for animated. Incredibles 2,

Isle of Dogs, Mirai, Ralph Breaks the Internet internet spider-man into the spider-verse amanda how many of these movies have you seen two oh wow that's pretty good yeah which ones i've seen incredibles two yeah and i've seen isle of dogs okay yeah isle of dogs is sort of the adult entry here wes anderson's film yes ish sort of a complex movie that we haven't i haven't really talked to anybody on this show about that movie but we're not going to do that right now. What's your pick? Incredibles 2. Okay.

So I went Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse. Yeah. And I don't want to say too much about this because we're going to focus a little bit more on this category for the Oscars later in the show because there's, that divide is very interesting to me. So let's just go straight to the next category.

Okay. I can't even give you my one sentence reasoning? Okay. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. I just think that superhero bias will work against Spider-Verse in this context. Incredibles 2 is a superhero movie. Yes, but they don't think of it the same way. It's not a Marvel movie. You know, it's not of the universe. It doesn't have the Marvel creep. And I think that voters' brains

can only expand so far right now. Let's hold on to that thought because we're definitely going to come back there. Next category, best motion picture foreign language. Here are the nominees. Yes. Cape or No, Girl, Never Look Away, Roma, Shoplifters. One, where's Cold War? True. Two, where's Burning? True. Three, this category is fine. It's Roma, right? Yes, because Roma can't compete in the best picture category. So the voters will give this to Roma. Okay. This is really boring. I find the sort of foreign nature of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association

to be the most confounding part of this. These nominees are super weird. Roma not being able to compete in that category makes this even more obviated. Do they give this category out on television? Do they give them all out on television? Do they give them all out on television? There's so many awards because television is included and we will not be talking about TV here, by the way. I honestly don't remember, which is more a testament to the fact that I haven't paid attention to this category in past years. Shame on me.

Yeah. I think they will give it out this year just because they didn't fix their rules in time. Yeah. An opportunity to get Cuaron on stage. Yeah. A Netflix moment. Yes. Okay. Next category. We're going through sort of the soft early category. This is the beginning of the show. Yeah. Best original score motion picture. Your nominees are Marco Beltrami for A Quiet Place, Alexandra Desplat for Isle of Dogs, Ludwig Goranson for Black Panther. I'm really enjoying my pronunciation here. Justin Hurwitz, First Man, and Mark Shaman for Mary Poppins Returns. What do you got? I went with Justin Hurwitz for First Man. Okay.

Which is partly because First Man was essentially otherwise ignored by the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. So I'm like, if they're thinking about it, then maybe they will vote for this. He also won for La La Land. They like to crown someone recognizable and is Blatwan last year. I love your reasoning. Yeah.

I think Hurwitz's score is the best of the bunch. Yeah. I think this is also much like the foreign film category missing two or three of the best scores of the year. Right.

I don't know where Nicholas Bertel is for If Beale Street Could Talk or Vice. Yes. I don't know where the Old Man and the Gun score is. I love that score.

I picked Mark Shaman and I think it's just because that's a famous movie that people are interested in and First Man is not a famous movie. Yeah.

Mary Poppins Returns is probably the third biggest hit out of this bunch. I think there's an outside chance that Ludwig Goranson gets in here.

Do you know much about Ludwig? I don't. He most famously is a longtime collaborator of donald glovers and a lot of childish gambino songs are composed by him and goranson's kind of making a move into scoring and that's a great score too interesting thing when like a swedish guy makes african music nevertheless okay we'll go to the next category best original song motion

picture this is going to be easy right right? Yeah. This is shallow. Okay. So I'll read the nominees. All the Stars, Black Panther. Good song. Girl in the Movies, Dumplin'. Never heard it. Requiem for a Private War. Please respect Dolly Parton.

Just time out. Okay. All right. Keep moving. Okay. Thank you. So yeah, Girl in the Movies, Dumplin'. Requiem for a Private War, A Private War, which is an Annie Lennox song that just plays

over the end credits of A Private War. I mean, weird flex, but okay. Okay. Revelation, Boy Erased. I believe that's Troye Sivan. Yes, that's correct. Who also co-stars in Boy Erased. And Shallow, A Star Is Born.

What happens if Shallow doesn't win? Will people be screaming and tearing their skin off? Because like this category, famously, not on this award show, but on the Oscars in particular, is a car crash. Like we should definitely focus on it

in a future episode. But I feel like it'd be fascinating if they got it wrong. I think that there's a decent chance at the Oscars that they get it wrong. I keep fixating on the fact, and I know I mentioned this last week, but there's a short list

for the best Oscar song. And there are two Mary Poppins songs on there and only one is Star is Born song. And that is like trouble. That is a big flashing warning sign. This, you know, we've talked about it a lot and I don't want to over rely on the Golden Globes as star fuckers, but a little bit. I mean, you just have to pick Lady Gaga on this one. They just, they will.

They picked her for American Horror Story. Like this one they just they will they picked her for american horror story like come on they will wow so that's that's tough for annie lennox uh yeah no i think it'll be shallow there's no musical performances at the globes right not in past years okay they gotta keep it moving should there be no i am i find we've talked about this i find musical performances live musical performances at award shows excruciating. The Grammys are a real trial for me every year. And the Oscars are always really awkward. And the nice part about the Golden Globes is they keep it moving.

So keep it moving. Sidebar, do you like the musical performances during the Independent Spirit Awards when the hosts sort of like do a musical number about one of the films nominated? If it's good, yeah. I mean, Mulaney and Kroll don't really sing, do they? Yeah, it's sort of a speak sing. Yeah, that's fine. It's a Lin-Manuel Miranda style.

I also don't want to pretend that I was like above Billy Crystal, you know, doing a fake thing in the English patient plane, which is a reference you don't understand. I'm familiar with that film, though I have not seen it. Right. Anyway, you know, I enjoy that. If you can pull it off, there's kind of a corny razzmatazz aspect to those performances and also the awards shows that I don't mind. It's when someone is really earnestly just like, I'm going to, it's me and my guitar, you know, singing about my soul to you based on the movie Dumplin' that I'm like. And again, I was like, I loved it.

Dolly Parton could sell it, but you know, if it weren't Dolly Parton, no thanks. No thanks. I'm going to make a suggestion. In a couple of weeks when we focus on this category for the Oscars, you and I will sing each song. Okay, that'll be wonderful. Okay, that'll be good radio. Should we go to acting?

Let's do it. So there's six acting categories, and I can't for the life of me understand why they break this up this way. This is the dumbest and most confusing award show. But there are two supporting categories for actor and actress. And then there are two best actor categories for drama and musical comedy. And then there are two best actress categories for drama and musical comedy. Why do they do this?

To get more celebrities on the screen. But then make it eight. Just give us best supporting in the two, in the split categories. I'm not one of the 88 members of the, or the 92 members of the AHFPA, man. I don't know. This shadow clan must answer for my questions.

That's all I'm saying. Great. Okay. Let's start with best actress in a supporting role in any motion picture. That's how they phrase it, in any motion picture. Here are the nominees.

Amy Adams-Weiss, Claire Foy, First Man, Your Girl, Regina King, If Beale Street Could Talk, Emma Stone, The Favorite, Rachel Weiss, The Favorite. Who do you got? I went with Regina King. Okay. Though I think that there's a strong chance for Amy Adams. I chose Amy Adams. Yeah, well, that'll be interesting. I will say the gold derby odds are vanishingly thin between these two. I believe it's like 4-1 and 45-11, like something like that. That's what splits the two of them, which means they have no idea. They really just don't know. This is one of those bellwethery kind of awards because it will put Regina King at the

forefront of voters' minds if she's up there receiving an award and giving a speech, which is not something we've seen a lot from her and not a lot of people have seen if Beale Street could talk just generally in the world. That's true. Amy Adams, of course, is very famous and is often nominated for supporting actress and, of course, is number one. If she wins here and she is more famous than Regina King, I think the sort of on-ramp to the Amy Adams campaign fully begins. If Regina King wins, I think it kind of reshuffles the deck a little bit. You think Emma Stone and Rachel Weisz cancel each other out? I do. There's also one quirk I want to note, which is Regina King is also nominated for TV miniseries. I really think there's a case where she wins a TV miniseries and Amy Adams wins in this category. And then

they're both still at the forefront of voters' minds. That's true. The Golden Globes does tend to simplify things they pick the most obvious and i still think regina king has won more critics awards and is a little bit more the captain obvious which is why i went with her also i just like the performance i do too she's wonderful um this is a pretty pretty strong category this is five really good nominees um for which of the tends to fuck things up this this is a good race let's go to best best actor in a supporting role in any motion picture. Here are the nominees. Mahershala Ali, Green Book,

Timothee Chalamet, Beautiful Boy, Adam Driver, Black Klansman, Richard E. Grant, Can You Ever Forgive Me? and Sam Rockwell for Vice. This has become a curiouser and curiouser category. Would you agree? Yes. I don't quite know where to put my finger.

I do want to say, I don't think Timothee Chalamet has any chance to win. I watched agree? Yes. I don't quite know where to put my finger. I do want to say, I don't think Timothee Chalamet has any chance to win. I watched this movie again, and I think that this is a really great performance. And I'm kind of confused why there's not, what I thought was going to happen here was they didn't take care of him last year for best actor, but it was sort of his arrival moment. And then what they tend to do is they reward people a year late, even young actors a year late for their big role. This was a good opportunity to reward him. And, you know, Mahershala, of course,

has already won in this category. Adam Driver is oncoming, but I think he's probably going to be a best actor candidate for years to come. Richard E. Grant, I get it. It's like, it's time sort of for the Withnail and I fans. And Rockwell won best actor last year. So this is a really weird category.

And I feel like there could be a Chalamet campaign if somebody actually puts some effort towards it. Though that doesn't seem to be happening. Yeah. Do you agree? I didn't like the Chalamet performance. Oh, tell me why. I'm shocked.

I felt it was really mannered and drama school instead of actual emotion. And I think that he was, you could see him putting on the imagination cloak a bit more than you could in Call Me By Your Name. And I think Chalamet is very good. And I think he, like Adam Driver, will also be a Best Actor nominee for years and years to come. So this to me seems like a courtesy nomination of,

we see you, we'll get you next time. But I just didn't really respond to that performance as much as other people. I don't think that you're wrong in terms of placing him as kind of the next great actor. And voting bodies really do like to do that. I think a nomination suffices in this. And I think it seems more likely to me that there would think a nomination suffices in this. And I think it seems more

likely to me that there would be a Richard Grant out of left field because people really do like to use this category to crown latecomers as well. You know, people who never really got their shot. No, it's true. I don't know. I think it's early for Chalamet. And this performance isn't noisy enough. Yeah, I get that. I mean, Grant has really been working hard on the campaign trail. He's been giving interviews left and right. He seems like a lovely man. I can see that there is a huge push on his part in the way that there is no push for Chalamet. There's not a very big push for Driver, I think, because they're accepting that they have no shot to win. So this feels like in this race, in the Globes

race, it feels like Mahershala, Richard E. Grant, and Sam Rockwell are sort of the contenders. Yes. I chose Mahershala. Who did you choose? Here's what I wrote down. Mahershala Ali, in parentheses, but maybe I will change this to Sam Rockwell. Yeah. Which was me late last night trying to. I think you're right.

I think it will be Mahershala. We both agree. Again, the Globes kind of do the what's sitting right in front of them. Mahershala has been the favorite. I think there will be some misplaced guilt about this movie and how this character was handled and wanting to put a vote of confidence in the actor. And he is just so charismatic, even given the many problems that have come to light in this particular character, as well as the movie in general. The Sam Rockwell performance is just so a best supporting actor candy performance in a way that I could see it happening again, even if he won last year. They really like flashy, recognizable, that person's working.

And that is, I mean, he's hilarious. I agree with you. It's very close to what they like to reward which is famous guy imitating famous guy in a kind of a rollicking role that is essential to the movie but doesn't take up too much space and you know

Rockwell I think is fun and they know that he would give a fun speech and you know Mahershala like talking about Green Book on stage I think would be quite complicated it would be interesting to hear how he would give a fun speech. And, you know, Mahershala talking about Green Book on stage, I think would be quite complicated. It would be interesting to hear how he would accept an award in the face of some of the criticism

of the movie. He's obviously been very thoughtful about that and is talking about it in the last couple of months. So we'll see what happens. I think that this category is sort of the inverse, the sort of polar opposite

of supporting actress, which is like, it's five pretty good performances from five people you like, but they just don't feel all that powerful. Whereas the five performances in best actress in a supporting role are like elemental to the movie and they're really, really strong and they drive the movie. And you're, you're making like the, yes, of course. I have a face at me right now. Okay. I'm sorry. Yes. I mean, that's, that's how, uh, men's and women's roles work in Hollywoodllywood anyway thank you okay uh shall we go to the next category yes uh let's switch it

up speaking of we'll let the men go first this time great here is best actor in a motion picture musical or comedy the nominees are christian bale for vice lynn manuel miranda for mary poppins returns vigo mortensen for Green Book, Robert Redford for The Old Man and the Gun, and John C. Reilly for Stan and Ollie. Another weird category. I don't know why Lin-Manuel Miranda is not supporting actor. I don't either. Shouldn't he be supporting actor? I think so, but I suppose they can choose whatever category to run in them, and I assume the thinking was since the supporting actors are all in one category, you have less of a shot at nomination, but when it's broken out to drama and musical comedy, run in him and I assume the thinking was since the supporting actors are all in one category you

have less of a shot at nomination but when it's broken out to drama and musical comedy he has more shot at a nomination and Lowe here he is good point it's interesting that he's not really in the conversation at all for best actor for the Oscars I haven't I haven't seen his name on any any ballots yeah I would agree though that makes sense yeah I mean he's very likable yeah yeah again it's weird that they didn't let him write the songs because then he would just win all of the song categories but anyway um i think categorizing vice as a comedy means that bail is a lock here i do too you you agree yes i we are doing a wins pool later this week and i don't want to give away my strategy but i would

say that christian bale is the closest thing to lock. He's a number one seed. I completely agree. If this doesn't happen, I'll be very, very, very surprised. I agree. On the other hand, I think Best Actress in a Motion Picture, Musical, or Comedy is quite a showdown. Yes. And here are the nominees. Emily Blunt, Mary Poppins Returns, Olivia Colman, The Favorite, Elsie Fisher, Eighth Grade, Charlize Theron, Tully, Constance Wu, Crazy Rich Asians. Give me your first thoughts on this group of people.

Generally or in terms of who will win? Just in terms of the race itself. I mean, you want me to tell you my pick? Yeah, sure. My pick is Olivia Colman. Okay. I did that because it's an international voting association. You don't seem confident.

No, I think it's really close. I think it could be Emily Blunt. I think that they're, I mean, the gold derby odds, they're very close. I think Emily Blunt is great in Mary Poppins Returns. And if she is going to win anything this year, I think that this would be the award. The Golden Globes likes celebrity. They like recognizing someone having their moment. They like silliness a bit more than anyone else.

So I could see it. I, you know, I could see Constance Wu. I was going to say Elsie Fisher. I feel like there's, you know, this is a, this is a random category. Let's just talk through some of the most recent winners in this category. Cause it's always, it's often a little bit left. So in 2017, it was Saoirse Ronan, which was cool, but that kind of makes me think Elsie Fisher has a chance here. Emma Stone in 2016 for La La Land of course went on to win

for the Oscar that year Jennifer Lawrence in 2015 for Joy which is amazing yeah Amy Adams in 2014 for Big Eyes Amy Adams in 2013

for American Hustle Jennifer Lawrence in 2012 for Silver Linings Playbook and Michelle Williams in 2011 for My Week with Marilyn. So what can we learn from that collection of winners? They like famous people. They like young women.

They like white people. They like, I guess, ingenues in a sense. In 2010, it was Annette Bening for The Kids Are Alright. So that's the last time a sort of a more seasoned actress won the award. I went with Emily Blunt and I feel okay about it. I don't feel very strongly about it. This is probably the category

I have the least confidence in. You could be totally right. I was sort of on the fence and I was trying not to overthink it because I don't really think that the Hollywood Foreign Press Association thinks about this at all. So I tried to channel their mindset, but Emily Blunt's really, really possible.

It wouldn't even be crazy if Charlize Theron won. I think it would be a little. I mean, she's really, really sure. In the context of the Globes, yes. And she is obviously extremely famous. But I just, Tully came out months ago. No one's really talking about it, even though we both quite liked it, or at least liked her performance.

I think that it would just be a little too film expert-y for the clubs to be like, well, but let me tell you about Tully. Like, they're not going to do that. Yeah, it feels maybe more like My Week with Marilyn, though, where it's like, let's get a very famous actress on stage for a kind of transformative role. Sort of. She's glamorous. Yeah, but, I mean, she's not glamorous in telly.

My Week with Marilyn is kind of of the old Hollywood nostalgia. That's true. Have you seen My Week with Marilyn? Yes, I have. It's not good. No. No, it's not a good movie. No.

Let's go to our old pal in Best Actress in a Motion Picture Drama. Amanda, have you seen The Wife? Still have not seen The Wife. Nor have I have not seen the wife. However Glenn Close has seen the wife. In fact she appeared in it. She's nominated in this category. She is the wife.

She is truly the wife. As is Lady Gaga. Not a wife until she is one and a star is born when she becomes Allie Mayne. Nicole Kidman for Destroyer which we discussed last week. Melissa McCarthy Can You Ever Forgive Me? And Rosamund Pike for Private War. Quick note about this. I received an email from a friend over the weekend. I do this 100 favorite movies list every year on my personal site, which I will not plug, but I am plugging the fact that I do it.

Our friend actually emailed me and said, here are my takes about your takes. Wow. Love it. These are all the bad movies on your list. And one of them was A Private War. And the message next to it was, I have not seen this movie, but I refuse to believe it is good. Okay. Is this person actually my friend? Well, we can talk about that. Okay, great. So Rosamund Pike is nominated here. And I thought A Private War was pretty good, actually, but she has no chance to win in this category. This is on my list of movies to watch before the Golden Globes, which says everything that you need to know about Rosamund Pike's chances in this movie. I have been meaning to see it.

I really, really like Rosamund Pike going all the way back to Joe Wright's Pride and Prejudice in 2005. She's delightful. This is a significantly different kind of performance from that movie. Yes, of course. I mean, as is Gone Girl, as is know she is as is an education yes she's really really delightful she's great range this is one this is not delightful i'm told but yeah it's not delightful i mean it's a really hard movie to watch it's about marie colvin the international war correspondent who put herself in harm's way many many times over the years

you know and ultimately tragically died in in the line of fire um We can move on from Rosamund Pike. She's a great actress. She'll probably be, she should be back. I think the Hollywood mismanagement of Rosamund Pike is an interest of Shea Serrano's and ours. It'll be interesting to see where she goes from here. Melissa McCarthy, I say no. Nicole Kidman, I say no.

I think this comes down to Lady Gaga and our pal Glenn Close. Who'd you go with? I went with Gaga. Yeah, as did I. It's just Globes catnip. It's, you know, being able to give an award to Lady freaking Gaga, who is very famous. They've done it before.

I think they'll do it again. It feels obvious. And that's why I feel a little bit uneasy about it. Yeah, I agree. But A Star is Born is such Golden Globes fare. And I really think that they're going to reward it in the obvious places. And this is a really obvious one.

I, you know, and I don't think it's too obvious. They're not, it's, this is not rocket science. It's an award show. Yeah, this is a real tone setter category for the Oscars as well. Last year, Frances McDormand won. However, in 2016, Isabelle Huppert won for Elle. Yeah, this is a real tone setter category for the Oscars as well. Last year, Frances McDormand won. However, in 2016, Isabelle Huppert won for Elle.

If anybody listening has not seen Elle, I would highly encourage it with a warning sign next to it. It's a tough, complicated movie. Brie Larson won in this category. Julianne Moore, Cate Blanchett, Jessica Chastain won in 2012. Meryl Streep for The Iron Lady, Natalie Portman for Black Swan. So that's a lot of Oscar winners there. Yeah, and that's what's of Oscar winners there. Yeah. That's what's interesting about the rest of the categories that we're going to discuss is that, you know, Olivia Colman, who is the other real Oscar contender, is in a separate category. So we can't, I mean, you can use this as a sort of bellwether,

but no one's really going head-to-head until the SAG Awards, which are imperfect, and then the Oscars. I kind of think also that that just changes the way that people will vote a little. How so? Well, maybe not the way that people will vote, but the outcomes. I think it's more likely that Lady Gaga wins this than the Oscar because, I mean, obviously she's not up against Olivia Colman, but then once it's Glenn Close, Olivia Colman, and Gaga in the mix, I think you're splitting votes a bit more. I don't know. It's probably the most, it's one of the most interesting races. Yeah.

We'll talk more about it in the future. I think it's Gaga too. I think they want to have a Gaga acceptance moment on stage, especially if she's not singing during this award show. So we both say Gaga. Let's go to best actor in a motion picture drama. The nominees are Bradley Cooper, A Star is Born, willem dafoe at eternity's gate have you seen that movie it's also on my list okay i knew you hadn't watched it i could just sense it and i had a feeling lucas hedge's boy erased rami malek bohemian rhapsody and john david washington for black klansman

so i picked rami malek so did i um i don't think picked Rami Malek. So did I. I don't think that Rami Malek has any chance to win the Oscar, but maybe I'm wrong about that. This is very fascinating to me because this naturally should be a place to reward Bradley Cooper for all of the fine work he does in and for A Star is Born.

But the Bohemian Rhapsody train trucks on and it's very flashy. Queen Freddie Mercury is an international figure. Rami Malek is an international figure. And I don't, it just seems, this seems weirdly obvious.

I agree with you. I also picked him. I think some of it is this is the only place that he will be rewarded. I don't think he'll win an Oscar. Maybe I'm wrong. Could that change though? Could that change? only place that he will be rewarded i don't think it won an oscar maybe i'm wrong i could that

change though could could that change if vice isn't as big a thing as we expect if cooper gets best director or best picture do they decide to give it to rum is this possible because it is you know it is a very similar classical transformation and he's good he's good in it you know you can't say he's not good uh you don't think he's good i think he's fine i think it's a i mean it's a lot which is obviously the point that's your channeling a lotness but there there's something about the physical transformation that is a bit over the top and you know i have a really hard time with these impersonation roles in general because it just crosses over to SNL so quickly for me. It's very, you know, there are even moments of Amy Adams's performance where she's just doing Kate McKinnon as Lynn Chaney. And it's very funny.

And the fact that Adam McKay wrote and directed that movie means that, you know, the film is already towing that line. But in general. Don't even interrupt. Shouldn't be going for that. Although Mike Myers is in that movie, there's a kind of jokey quality to that movie at times. That's kind of one of its flaws. Yeah.

I hear what you're saying. I think people, honestly, SNL is very popular and people respond to that kind of thing. Sure. I just kind of think that in terms of actor and acting, I'm always like, I don't know whether this is acting or impersonation. So I personally think there's a case to be made that it's not as good as, say, Bradley Cooper, which is an actual transformation. And then you're like, holy crap, that's Bradley Cooper.

That is not what I think of to be Bradley Cooper. And he kind of created that character from a lot of different living people. I was going to say, I was like, holy crap, there's Eddie Vedder. Yeah, well, I think it's a composite, sort of. But anyway, to the Oscar point, this to me seems like a Golden Globes wanting to have some fun liking this actor, knowing it's not going to happen anywhere else.

This is where I'm like the weirdness and the capriciousness of the Golden Globes voting body is going to be on display. And I think that the Academy will vote differently. Maybe I'm wrong. No, I think we agree. Shall we do best screenplay? Yeah. Okay.

Interesting category. Yes. So unlike the Oscars, which is normally split into two different screenplay categories, one for adapted and one for original. This is just five smashed together. Here are the five. Alfonso Cuaron for Roma, Deborah Davis and Tony McNamara for The Favorite. I don't know very much about them. I'd like to read a little bit more about them. Barry Jenkins for If Beale Street Could Talk, Adam McKay for Vice, Peter Farrelly, Nick Vallelonga, and Brian Corey for Green Book. Now, who did you choose here? And then let's talk about the category.

I chose the favorite. Okay. I chose Vice. I think it's right between those two. Those to me, you got it as well. You're showing the favorite, but I could also see Vice. Yeah. I think that we were in an interesting unknown area with Vice here.

Vice came out a week ago. It did pretty good business. Obviously, it's the most nominated film with the globes there's a lot of starry famous people adam mckay is on a on a run right now with succession so there's a lot going for it but if it goes like oh for six or one for six with bail only that will probably portend something less positive for that movie going into the oscars the favorite is definitely one of the most celebrated screenplays of the year um i could see it winning i could see it winning in definitely one of the most celebrated screenplays of the year.

I could see it winning. I could see it winning in this category of the Oscars too. Yeah. My reasoning was just screenplay is usually a, is often a bone they throw at something that doesn't win anything else. And I think I did pick Olivia Colman, but I think this is it on my ballot for the favorite. So I went with the favorite. You had me changing my mind a little bit. I also put vice in parentheses so i could you know yeah it's tricky i think roma is also in play here because the roma obviously is not up for best picture um and i wouldn't rule out barry jenkins honestly uh i would rule out peter farrelly and nick valelonga and brian corey though maybe i don't know what i'm talking about well i was just gonna say there is a real disaster scenario

where they win for this award. And then... How many think pieces will you assign that night? I mean, I will assign one to you. Yeah. Congratulations to you on your think piece. I don't know. You know, it's then...

Then it's just a whole mess and we got to go through the whole thing. And let's just not. I think it would be great if the golden globes could not make us go through that it will re-shine a spotlight on that whole yeah that whole situation um okay let's go to the next category it's best director motion picture bradley cooper a star is born alfonso cuaron roma peter farrelly green book spike lee black klansman adam mckay vice i went with cooper and i think this is wrong, but I'm going with Cooper.

That's kind of how I feel about it. Okay. Did you go with Cuaron? I went with Cuaron. I had Cuaron or Cooper written for a long time. And like last night at 11, I made a decisive delete stroke

and I did Cuaron. Yeah, it's, this is a stupid award show. I mean, I could, I could be wrong, but, and I really think that it's just kind of rule book makeup. You know, the fact that he can't win Best Picture means that they'll give it to director.

He has already won, but they don't mind repeats. And the Globes isn't an international voting body. They do have a taste that, you know, might not play out in the general public. So I went with Caron basically just because he can't win the biggest award of the night. How many people in the world do you think have seen Roma at this moment? Just put a number on it. It's like way too early for numbers, man. Seen or are we doing Netflix count?

Are we doing real count? No, real count. How many, how many people in the world have completed the film Roma? I want to say somewhere between five and 7 million. Okay. That'd be a lot. I think it would be a lot, but I mean the whole world, Sean. Yes.

How many people are in the world? Like billions. Where are we at? 8 billion? Yeah, I think so. Bobby can get a check on that. Okay. Like a lot.

So percentage wise, it's small, but you Yeah, I think so. Bobby, can you get a check on that? Okay. Like a lot. So percentage-wise, it's small. But, you know, I think once you count all the countries that Netflix is available in and the number of people who are curious, you know, I'd like to think that there are 5 to 7 million film enthusiasts in the world. You know, I ask because earlier this week, Netflix, of course, shared the information that 45 million people watched Bird Box within the- Streamed Bird Box. Streamed Bird Box.

That's why I asked you. Okay, streamed Bird Box within the first seven days of release, which is a fascinating statistic that I would like to devote a several hour podcast to. I don't know what it means. I'd like to understand a little bit more about what it means.

I don't even know if that signifies success. Perhaps it does. Perhaps pure consumption is success at this point. And nevertheless, more people have seen Roma than otherwise would have if this were just distributed in art houses. So that's cool. I'm happy about that. Should we go to the last two categories? Yes. Best motion picture, musical, or comedy. Here are the nominees. Crazy Rich Asians, The Favorite, Green book mary poppins returns and vice who'd you choose i went with vice as did i though hearing you read the nominees this is just a wild

card category pretty funny yep i went with vice because it was the most nominated film of the entire golden globes which i just think means that it's on the brain. And the Golden Globes has a history of, this movie explains America films. And I think that Vice is definitely trying to explain America and in a way that certain voters might feel good about themselves by voting for it. And I think this is the way they'll go, but I could be totally wrong. I basically agree with you. I think that three of these four, four of these five are in play.

I think Crazy Rich Asians is the only film that probably doesn't have a chance here. I don't know. I think it could. I think you could make a strong case that Vice and Crazy Rich Asians should not even be in this category and should be in drama and Bohhemian rhapsody and a star is born should be in musical or comedy which is one of the things that is just kind of fucked up about this whole thing you know

crazy rich asians is theoretically a rom-com though i don't think it's a very funny movie i think it's actually more effective when it's sort of like lightly dramatic melodramatic um yeah gosh i guess vice okay next let's go to the next category best motion picture drama here are the nominees black panther black klansman bohemian rhapsody if beale street could talk and the star is born so i assume you're going black panther i really liked black panther don't be rude uh no i'm going a star is born yeah me too uh do you think that this is like locked up at the oscars right now no you don't no because because Rome is not here obviously yes and that is the biggest challenger right but I got it just

there's an air of inevitability around this for me right now with A Star Is Born I can see it and I think and we did say that about La La Land so that's true and maybe next week I'll feel differently if Gaga wins, if Cooper wins in Best Actor, if A Star is Born does in fact win. It is kind of the consensus favorite. And we'll talk a lot more about the breakdown of the Academy voting body and how that all plays out. But you're right. I can see it still seems like the favorite to me. And I certainly think it'll win in this category. But when you put all these movies together, and suddenly you've got A Star is Born, Green Book, The Favorite, Vice, Black Panther, all in one category, it changes the way that

people are thinking about all of them. And Roma, of course. I didn't even, Roma, I was reading from a list. So I really want to do a whole thing on the, a whole podcast on the preferential ballot, because I think that that really changes. It's not just, I mean, if everyone votes number one, a star is born, then yes, it wins. Is that going to happen? I don't know.

That's how a movie like The Favorite wins. Yeah. You know, we've seen stuff like that happen before. I tend to think that's what happened with The King's Speech, but we can talk about that another time. Those are our ballots. We'll share those on social media. If you don't already know, we have a Twitter feed for the show. It's

at the big pick. So feel free to share yours with us. I can't promise you I will look at yours, but someone will. And isn't that great that social media shares content? Shall we continue with the show? Yes. Okay. Let's just talk very quickly about the rest of this show. I don't care about the TV stuff. We will cover the TV stuff. Our pals at The Watch, I'm sure, will cover it. Alison Herman is keeping a close eye on it and covering it for the site. It usually doesn't matter.

I'm more interested in the Emmys, and I'm not even that interested in the Emmys. I do want to talk about Andy Samberg and Sandra Oh. What do you expect from these two people who I would not have guessed are hosting an award show together but are? Well, that's the great part right there, is that I don't really have a ton of expectations, except, oh, I like them and that'll be nice. And they will do amusing filler bits while we wait for the reveals of all the categories we just discussed, which is basically what you need from a host at this point. And, you know, I like them. I'm curious because I don't like, I don't have a fixed idea in my head of what it's like when Andy Samberg and Sandra Oh are bantering on stage.

And, you know, frankly, I like it when famous people banter on stage. That's why I'm here doing this podcast. That's fine. Should we be doing this on stage? No, I didn't mean us. Maybe sometime in the future. That's why I care about awards shows. Got it. Yeah. I don't know why anyone listens to us. But anyway, I think the fact that we don't have a fixed idea of what they'll be like or a huge amount of expectation burden on them is great. I think that it'll just be pleasant. And then we'll know the winners and we'll move on.

Yeah. You know, I'm hoping that at least Sandberg affects his Justin Bieber roast persona. That's my favorite Andy Sandberg live performance, barring, I guess, any Lonely Island comedy. It's an interesting thing. This feels a lot closer to Independent Spirit Awards

style host to me than the Globes in the past. Tina Fey and Amy Poehler, while, I guess, similarly, SNL alums, television stars in many ways, were just more famous. Ricky Gervais' sort of standalone was more internationally famous. You know, Andy Samberg's the star of a network sitcom. He's an awesome, hilarious comic actor and very creative. And Sandra Oh is a star of a fairly small drama on BBC America.

Now, she was on Grey's Anatomy for many years. Right. And is, you know, a star of movies like Sideways. She's had a great career. But it's actually fairly low wattage. And that's interesting to me. One thing I've been thinking a lot about, on The Watch a couple months ago, Andy Greenwald was talking about sitcom streaming and the shows that are kind of streamed and restreamed the most.

And Brooklyn Nine-Nine is really up there. Yeah. It's kind of right behind Friends. So I think Andy Samberg is actually a bit more famous than we understand it. We understand him to be. And I also kind of think he is the right level and the right type of famous, which is, oh, that guy, I like that guy. I'll just sit and watch him talk for a while. It doesn't, there's a familiarity that comes with tv and especially sitcom re-watching tv that lends itself well to this style of hosting which is I don't know that you want to put on a big show anymore as a celebrity at a host I think that there aren't that many people that can do it that well and

speak to a large enough audience so you kind of sneak your way in with familiarity. Yeah. You're like a, you're like a tour guide with good banter. Yeah. Speak, speak when you should speak and, and let us look at the pyramids when we want to look at the pyramids. Exactly. You know, the Oscars doesn't have a host yet. And I've been thinking about writing about this for like a couple of weeks now.

And I still just don't know what to say for two reasons. One, I feel like inevitably, whenever I publish a column about it they will name somebody that moment it'll be the perfect person sure but secondarily I don't really know what the show needs you know I don't really know what it wants my take in general and I mentioned this to you I think last week on the show is that I think it's a great job I think we've now accepted that like it's a bad job because you could get Kevin Harted or anything you've done in the past can be spotlit or the opportunity to fail

is greater than the opportunity to succeed. And so it feels like a lose-lose. I've heard Bill talk about this recently. Of course, he knows firsthand from talking to Jimmy Kimmel about his experiences. And people thought Jimmy Kimmel did really well. And still there's kind of this feeling like, well, why would you go back again?

What's really the upside? You know, my counter to that is very straightforward, which is just like, if you want to be more famous, just host the Oscars. This makes you more famous. This gives you more access to more people in the world than almost anything else you can do unless you have like 90 million Twitter followers. Because 30 million people watch this year, the caliber of person that they would even consider for an awards host was already beyond that fame point. So if you're really famous. Yes and no. Well. I mean, is Seth MacFarlane really that famous? advertising it every damn football game. He's just like in my house all the time now.

I can't believe it's real, but I think people on Fox are watching this all the time. Yes, I think he's quite famous. Where are my Orville heads at? Not here. I'm so fascinated by the fact that they don't have a host. When it was December 3rd, that was the latest they had gone before they named Jimmy Kimmel the host for a second time.

Right. And people were like, whoa, this is really fucking late. And it is now January 2nd. So we're six weeks out. No host. Do you think they'll do the... I've been reading a bit about The Godfather. Are you familiar with The Godfather? Heard of it. Okay. So we're doing The Godfather and the Rewatchables, which is coming to you shortly. And I was reading a bit about the 45th Academy Awards, which is the Godfather Academy Awards. And that show did not have a host per se. It had four sort of guide hosts,

among them Michael Caine and I believe Charlton Heston. And so they had, I think, three actors and an actress come out and kind of shepherd the show. And that is something specifically that Bill has been suggesting. Saying, you know, they should just bring out Tom Hanks, Denzel Washington, Meryl Streep, and I don't know, Lin-Manuel Miranda and just have them shepherd the show. I feel like that's not splashy enough for the 2019 social media moment. Well, counterpoint, then you can just list 30 people on one little Instagram card. Yeah.

And then you have all of the famous people all at once. And in that sense, you do get your something for everyone. I agree with Bill. I also do think that just from a practical standpoint, this is what they'll end up doing. But, you know, every year after about two hours into an awards show, and especially the Oscars, we're like, the presenters are better than the hosts. Why don't they just let these people banter? So maybe they'll just let these people banter.

And in a way, honestly, Annie Sandberg and Sandra Oh is an extension of that. It's like, you know, they would be the presenter category that everyone was like, oh, that's so charming. Just like Tiffany Haddish and Maya Rudolph last year. There's always one presenter combo where you're like, why don't you let them host? And then I think maybe this year they'll just have like four or five presenter combos and let him host. Isn't it really weird though,

that Maya Rudolph and Fred Armisen are not the host of the show. It's too, too meta. They were, they in the Emmys, they did the weird commentary where they were just like eating salad in the booth and you can't do that. Why?

Maya Rudolph, she can sing, she can dance. I think I would love for Maya Rudolph alone to be the host of the Oscars. I would watch that. How dare I saddle her with some weak-kneed co-host. Right. Who just makes her sit in a booth and make salad jokes.

No, I didn't even like that. I like her very much. And I was like, this is boring. This is a waste of my time. Keep it moving. So just let people be charming on stage. It's not that hard. Just find some charming people, put them in a tuxedo and or evening wear of their choosing

and just let them talk for two minutes and then move it along. One thing that's been interesting about doing the show with you is you are using it as a campaigning device to get new jobs. So you wanted to have the job of reading all the tweets. And now you want to be the producer. That's still available. They still haven't hired anyone. My rate went up. We don't know that. My rate went up, by the way, though. It's a million in 2019. But now you want to host. You don't want to host, but you want to be the producer of the Oscars. Is that right? I just have some suggestions. Okay. So just making some suggestions is literally the job of the producer of the Oscars. Okay. Well, I just have some suggestions. Okay. So just making some suggestions is literally

the job of the producer. Okay. Well, that's great. Let's go to stock up, stock down. We're going to make this very quick. We're going to try to move through this, the rest of the show pretty quickly. Um, vice vice made a little bit of money and it's gotten some better reviews since that, that outpouring of complicated, somewhat negative reviews that first came around two weeks ago when the embargo lifted. You know, we mentioned this a little bit already as we talked through some of the categories, but I do think the Globes really matter here. And is there a world in which it goes like six for six? I would be surprised, but not shocked. I don't think it'll go six for six. Like McKay's not winning best director with all respect to Adam McKay,

who's great and whose work I enjoy. So I think that it could win Best Picture, Comedy, Best Actor, and Best Supporting Actress. And then that's a real... And maybe Rockwell. And maybe Rockwell. It could win four. I would like to share two key dates with you. Please. Monday, January 7th, which happens to be the day after the Golden Globes,

is when the nominations voting opens for the Oscars. And Monday, January 14th is when it closes. So the Golden Globes are the live and die situation for Vice, which is a hilarious sentence. Yeah. It's interesting too. And I mean, Vice, of course, is Annapurna. Annapurna is still a fairly young company when it comes to the campaign season.

It'll be interesting to see how they move the chess pieces around the board in the coming weeks. The other one that I'm interested in, so it sounds like Vice is just kind of holding steady. We'll see on Sunday night. The Favorite, which again made more money this weekend and is not necessarily going up in theater count, but is very slowly but surely doing well and doing well and doing well. I'm so impressed by this sort of thing. I'm probably too impressed by it, honestly, but the way that Fox Searchlight every year makes a really weird movie and then gets like $30 million worth of people to go see it. I think I've said it a couple of times already. I still feel like when you let Fox Searchlight go into the final six weeks of an Oscar race, they know how to like turn the jets on and I could see it happening here. What do you think? I don't think so. I think this is such a classic, oh, we really liked it and all

the actors will be nominated movie. And then it will be nominated for best picture as a result, because it's great. It is one of the best movies of the year, but it's just a classic best actress win and everybody else gets nominated for me. Fuck Searchlight had 20 Oscar nominations last year. I think that they made this year. Like, I think it will be nominated pretty much everywhere. I really, I picked Olivia Colman at the Golden Globes and I think she'll probably still win Best Actress at the Oscars.

And it could win screenplay. It could win many things. And as you said, things go a little weird in the Best Picture voting and maybe it does fall to the favorite because it's everyone's third choice. I have one observation. You know how famously HBO dominated the Emmys for many years? Yes. And they would tout their nominations because HBO was a brand. So they would say, we had 139 Emmy nominations this year.

Movie studios historically do not do that because no one knows what Fox Searchlight is. Traditional consumers can't really tell the difference between Columbia and Screen Gems and Sony Pictures Classics, even though they're all owned by the same company. What they do is they say, this movie got 13 nominations or nine or six. I think Netflix is going to be the first company that's like, we got the most Oscar nominations of any company. So they're going to say Netflix has, I don't know, 19 nominations. I'm very curious to see if they use that strategy because Netflix is the only real brand. Disney, of course, is a brand, but Disney historically does not care about the Oscars. So I'll be very curious to see if on our drive to work every day, when we pass by the Netflix offices and we see those big banners and billboards,

if they'll be touting not just Roma and not just a documentary that they're proud of, but the company in toto, you know? I'm sure they will. I totally, but that just seems like a foregone conclusion. Like that seems- It would be a kind of an innovation though. You know, we're in a world where Bird Box has 45 million, you know. Are we?

Are we in a world? In a world where Netflix is claiming that, but they'll claim anything. And that's kind of the buzz and the attention is how they make their money. So, of course, they will. And that just seems natural to me because why else are they trying to win Oscars? Let's go to the big race. Yeah. I want to talk about Best Animated Feature, which is very fun for me because you haven't seen these movies and don't care about them.

I have seen two of these movies. You don't respect me. You don't respect this art form that's true um respecting you anyway uh i think you agree that this is spider-man into the spider-verse versus incredibles 2 right i think so yeah um only three times since 2007 has the result differed from the oscars results in the category i'm talking about the Globes here. So in 07, Cars won at the Globes and Happy Feet won at the Oscars. Shout out to George Miller. In 2011, The Adventures of Tintin won at the Golden Globes, famously directed by Steven Spielberg. And Rango won at the Oscars. Tintin was not even nominated at the Oscars, which is kind of amazing. Shout out to Rango.

I fucking love Rango. And then in 2014 2014 How to Train Your Dragon 2 one of the Golden Globes and Frozen won at the Oscars Amanda I think that there's an interesting Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse thing that could happen here which is that this might change the dynamic of the Pixar dominance of all this stuff Incredibles 2 is one of the biggest movies of the year it's it's gotten very well reviewed brad bird is very well liked in the academy that said spider-man to the spider-verse is like literally one of the five best reviewed films of the year you refuse to see it because you're a coward but and you won't you don't accept great art but i i'm curious one if you think that sort of like shattering the

disney stronghold here is meaningful in any way and also especially in a year where they have Mary Poppins Returns competing in a category where they don't usually have other movies and Black Panther frankly with Marvel and also why won't you watch these movies? I do think that ending the Disney stronghold would be significant because I typically see

one to two animated movies a year and it's whatever Disney Pixar movie has been nominated that everyone's talking about and they're like oh it you know moved me so much and like what triumph and this is really disturbing i'm sorry that the only time that you can feel is when like cartoons are running around but anyway imagine seeing coco and having a black heart you know what i was imagine that i know inside out i was moved. Imagine that, Lister. I know. Inside Out, I was weeping. I was just like, actually, I watched it. It was like a random December night, and I turned to my adult husband,

and I was like, should we watch this movie? We have no children, so we just two adults sitting on a couch watching Inside Out. What did your child husband think? And I was just, I get it it inside out was like really tremendous i i understand the appeal i think i've seen all the pixar movies i like i get it for me for me it's a no dog that's what you're saying you're randy jackson i mean it is it's gonna be a no for me dog but i was

thinking about this because i knew you were gonna to quiz me. And it's basically just like a different medium, essentially. Like we have talked so much about TV as movies and movies are TV now, but they're not. Like TV is a different type of art form from movies. And I really do feel that animated movies are slightly different from movies. They prioritize different skills and different ideas and different ways of making art. And that's great. And all the people who make them are very skilled at what they do. And I'm not saying that they can't be moving,

but they're not as interesting to me. They don't speak to me in the way that films featuring human beings do. It's like you have a closed ventricle in your heart. You know, there's just a certain area where the blood can't get in. I guess so. Okay. Well, that was a really bad take, but I'm glad you shared it. Shall we look ahead?

Yeah, let's do it. So we're going to be coming to you after the Golden Globes, perhaps night of, perhaps not. And we'll have a lot of opinions, I guess. We'll talk a little bit about the opening of the Oscars voting. I do want to cede a note

to our really loyal listeners who have been sharing how much they've been enjoying the film, The Wife. We are going to watch The Wife maybe at some point in the future. Yes. I don't know when. Maybe it'll be 2025. Maybe it'll be 2045. It'll probably be in the next four weeks. Probably. Unless some very wild things happen at Oscar nominations.

Oh, yes. That's a great point. If Glenn Close is shut out, then I will never watch The Wife. I was going to say, maybe that's when I'll finally watch it in tribute. It's like to shine a light on unheralded performances. Oh, that's a good take. Okay. Yeah, there we go.

So we'll keep you posted on when The Wife pod is coming, because it is coming. Amanda, any closing thoughts here ahead of the Golden Globes? I would just say we talk a lot every year about how the Golden Globes don't matter. And they are nonsensical

and we don't always agree with them. But I think this year they are going to have some influence or they will at least be a talking point in a way that sometimes they aren't. So if you weren't considering watching, but you care about awards shows, maybe watch or definitely listen to our podcast. I would definitely suggest you do the latter.

Amanda, thanks again. Thank you, Sean. Please stay tuned for my conversation now with Cold War writer-director Pavel Pavlikowski. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Sonos. The Sonos Beam is the smart, compact soundbar for your TV and newest addition to the easy-to-use Sonos home sound system. Amanda, Sonos supports over 100 streaming services and airplay, so you can play everything you love and enjoy music, radio, movies, TV, podcasts, and more. Amanda, do you have a Sonos? I do. Tell me a little bit, do you have a Sonos? I do.

Tell me a little bit about your personal experience with Sonos. We've had it for several years, and I really enjoy it, primarily to torment my husband with Christmas music during the holiday season. But now we've segued from that into Elton John season. I'm going to see Elton John at the end of the month, and I'm preparing. It's great. Every room, and sometimes from rooms that I'm not in, Elton John, just everywhere. Just floating around. Every room, and sometimes from rooms that I'm not in, Elton John,

just everywhere. Just floating around. At the touch of a button. I got to say, I too have a Sonos Beam, and I watched The Godfather with a Sonos Beam, and that Nino Rota score, you know,

famously not nominated for an Oscar, I'll note, just sounded so beautiful, so incredible. The sound design in The Godfather is amazing. It sounds even more amazing on the Sonos Beam, which is really easy to set up. It connects to your TV with just one cord

and syncs with your existing remote. I highly recommend you check out Sonos Beam. So just go to sonos.com to learn more and order your Beam today. That's S-O-N-O-S.com, Sonos. I'm delighted to be joined by Pavel Pavlikovowski. Paweł, thank you for coming in. It's a pleasure. Paweł, Cold War is your second consecutive film set in Poland in a sort of mid-20th century.

And I'm curious, you know, you're obviously Polish descent, but I'm curious why this is the second time you've done that, because not all of your films are set in that space or in that time. I think it's something to do with the place in life, you know, where I'm in life now, the age. I've closed a certain chapter of my life, you know, maybe 10 years ago and my kids left home and suddenly I became widower. And I really started sort of, you know, reflecting on where I'm from, who I am, you know, what

the important things are. Also, slightly losing touch with the present, or rather not enjoying it so much. So in my films, it's maybe less of a return to Poland. It's a return to a certain period in Poland, a period which I partly remember, partly I know through my parents, who I was very close to. And it's a period that formed me. It's where I come from.

And it's always been with me. I lived in England and I made films there. But on the other hand, when I made documentaries, I always made them in Central Eastern Europe. So with fiction it was difficult. So a moment came where I thought, God know i've got these stories to tell and i've got this world that is within me that i remember that i that i still dream about you know these images songs the faces my parents faces my parents died in in 89 together a bit like the heroes in the film uh just before the

wall came down so but they left a huge gap and then that gap became bigger and bigger with with with time so what do you mean by a gap well they kind of disappeared suddenly from my life and i was the only child and when you when they were there i you know it's like it's all with all families you know the conflicts you know i was was like with all families, you know, there were conflicts, you know, I was irritated. They had this very tempestuous kind of very disrupted life and they weren't exactly the best parents. And so, but then when they disappeared, I realized that they are, you know, everything I am is sort of from them. And I carry both their, you know, some traits of my mother, some traits of my father. And their sense of humor, their horizons were what informed me, you know.

So I think it's also to do with aging, you know, that suddenly you kind of feel more and more so alienated from the present, especially with this digital civilization, which is inevitable and it's great, but it's nothing to do with me. So there were many, many reasons why I went back to Poland and I went back in time. I'm very interested in the idea of making a film that is sort of a memory, that is a reflection of a time that you can't quite grasp you know what is that like to try to evoke something that is gone and especially if this film is sort of loosely based on on your parents you know you don't have them to speak to so you're building something many years later after they've passed about them but it's been with me you know i mean it's not like i have to dig very hard you know know, it's, it's, you away and it's uh uh and and i always felt i'm from there you know it's never he said i was of polish descent i'm actually polish i

always felt polish so yes so it's always been there and and going back to Poland to shoot Ida, looking for locations, looking for various landscapes around Poland, listening to music that I remembered. It was so strong. It was just so vivid. It's the best material to make films from, something that's deeply new. And you kind of rediscover it and you rediscover something that you've always had ida you know was such a beautiful and masterful film and this film obviously has a lot in common with it i'm curious if there was a an alternate history where you were going to do something that was completely different say not black and white not set during this period did you or were you

always going down this track of doing stories that had this interconnection. Yes, very much so. And, you know, I have some stories that basically I needed to tell. So I never dared to tell this story, although it's been with me for a while and I've attempted to write it up, you know, over the last 10 years several times. But after Ida, after its success, after the success of a film which is told very minimally, elliptically, poetically, and yet it seemed to resonate everywhere around the world, you know, from

China to Spain to the States. I realized that I can, you know, it's actually, it's not impossible to tell this story as well. Why do you think Ida resonated that way? I'm curious, Because, you know, you'd been making documentaries for 25 years. You'd been making narrative films for 15 years before that. What was it about that film? I don't know. There's some, but it's hard to say for me. But I think it was, it tells a very which people miss, which people have a hunger for.

And it's also kind of handmade. I kind of like the idea of hand-making films. So it's not an industrial process. You really are kind of sculpting it. I'm just speculating why it was so popular but but it um let's not exaggerate i mean it wasn't a blockbuster but it did no but many people saw it and you know you won an oscar for it yeah so so i think it's that you know if you touch on something universal while putting it in kind of authentic, real environment without compromises and tell it honestly, and I think there's always an audience for that.

I will say I didn't know anything about the film before I saw it, before I saw Cold War. And, you know, it's this incredibly intense and kind of ravishing movie at times. And then when I saw the dedication at the end of the film to your parents i was kind of surprised and maybe that's just a sort of american puritanical point of view but i was like this is quite a interestingly romantic and almost sexualized vision of your parents in some respects you know what was it like to kind of tangle with that idea of them as these young and beautiful and passionate people yeah i mean they died long ago so i wasn't particularly inhibited by, I don't think I would have made it if they were around. But they were very, I just realized, you know,

when you're a kid, your parents are an embarrassment, you know, but they were actually incredibly attractive, strong characters, very different from each other, but both protagonists of their own story. People adored them, you know, that's something that from each other, but both protagonists of their own story. People adored them, you know. That's something that when they died, I realized what an outpouring of grief there was, you know, how loved they were. Were they national figures?

Were they well-known? No, not at all. But they were well-known within the world that the worlds that they traversed. And they were just very, very strong. And their story, which was, when you look at it, when you live with them, you don't think of it as a story,

but when you step back and after they've disappeared, it's an amazing story. It's an amazing, disastrous love story that has many chapters and should have collapsed many times because they separated, divorced, they married other people in between.

And yet they kept coming back and, you know, and the world changed, the countries changed, you know, because they moved on. But they couldn't give up on each other in the end. And at the end of it, they were the only thing they had, you know, each other. And the only person they knew through and through, uh, was, was he and her. Um, so, um, and, and when I, you know, when I visited them shortly before they died in, it was in Munich in 1989, they were the most touching, loving couple, both very ill and both wanting to die, but very at peace with the world, with themselves and holding hands, you know, and having seen them fight physically sometimes and being awful to each other, cruel, betraying

each other. Seeing that was, you know it was something you think god this is this is incredible you know that and you traverse cultures periods you know they were together on and off for 40 years and and there's so many stages to this story you know when they met she was 17 he was 27 he was kind of authority figure for a while. Then he lost that authority, inevitably. Then when they remarried in the West, they were very different. When you live in exile, you have to change your... Well, you don't have to, but you tend to change your personality to kind of find yourself, find your new identity in a new world. The relationship changed.

And it went through many stages. So anyway, that was like the big matrix of all love stories for me, you know. And even when I was inventing stories of my own or when I was once I was offered to do a film about Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath. And I remember being really excited about it because that was a kind of story of two protagonists who really fought to the death. And I got involved in, in preparations to make this film,

but in the end they realized it's an, it was a kind of a studio film which needed stars and, you know, where basically I wouldn't have the control to do it in my way. So, so I stepped back, but I remember the reason I was turned on by it was the similarity to that, you know,

mother of all love stories. Yeah, that's so fascinating. What's it like? I mean, the stars of this film are wonderful. What was it like trying to find people who evoke something that is also in your memory that is so deep and close to you? Well, it feels hopeless at the beginning. You know, one of the reasons I kind of kept giving up on this film was I'll never find actors, you know, who are of that period, who have that kind of personality,

who I believe in. So, yeah, people change. Nowadays, actors are very much of today, most actors, especially male actors. But then I'd worked with Joannaohanna colleague before on a couple of films where she had a minor part but but she had something it wasn't just close to my mother which she kind of weighs a bit too whether it was blonde and full of this energy and and very feisty but she has something timeless about her you know she I mean she she

fits in the 50s 60s now um same with uh Tomasz Kot you know I was looking for a guy who would feel slightly not of today and and Tomasz when you looked at him from a certain angle lit him in a certain way uh and generally you know he has that aura of a pre-war guy who's born before the war and you know and it's a kind of leading man from the 50s you know like gregory peck or something you know one of those so basically it looks just a little bit like you too it's so people say yeah i don't think i would have known that if I hadn't seen you face to face, but it occurs to me now. No, no. Okay. Well, I'm timeless too. But so, so anyway, that was the criterion largely, plus the good actors and, and Joanna can sing as well,

which was a huge plus. Thomas Scott can't play the piano or couldn't. He learned quite a bit, but, but, but then, you know, the main thing is her singing. So, you know, there are many, many good things, but it was a long process to decide, you know, this is it, he can do it. Then the other actors had to be interesting and timeless and touching in some way. All the extras in the film, really hand-picked.

It's very difficult to find extras who look like people in the 50s. So it was like a lot of effort went into selecting all the elements to recreate that world. Yeah, so it was a huge challenge. And while preparing it, I kept having these thoughts, what the hell are we doing? This is never going to work. But we just kept plowing on and ended up okay in the end. What actually pushed this project forward to make it happen?

I'm curious, you know, you mentioned like you almost worked on a studio film a number of years ago. You decided not to because you have a certain approach. You want to have a certain amount of control over it. What is it like for you to get a film made, especially something like eda happens you know is it easy to get financing and to convince people that this is something they should do yeah man the main problem to be honest is myself to convince myself that i have enough emotional energy and attachment to this thing that i really want to live with this film for two three years because that's what it takes so that's my main problem

and then you know of course if you want to make a film in black and white with unknown actors or actors who are known not known outside poland then the money is not straightforward you know but the oscar helped a bit i don't know maybe 20 but it didn't open all the doors you know would have been a different story if i'd done it in English in a slightly different way. Was that anything you had considered? No, no, no. That's just not the way I make films. So it was easier, but once I'm totally convinced

that this is a film that needs to be made and I want it, I know that I can make it. Come hell or high water, I know I'll find the money. I've got good producers who are very good at hustling. I mean, these sort of films are made from many sources, small pockets of money from here, regional funds, some British Film Institute, the Polish Film Institute, bank loans. It's real artistry to put a budget together for that kind of film.

I always ask about that, even though it seems mundane, but I'm so curious how people manage to put it all together, to make it all work, because it's not easy. No, no. It takes a lot of skill and kind of imagination. But I had these two wonderful women producers, Ewa Puszczyńska and Tania Segacian in Britain, Ewa in Poland,

who were just brilliant at this kind of thing, at hustling and finding pockets of money here and there. They were shooting in certain regions of Poland, partly because the locations were there, but also because you could get like 100,000 euros, you know, for local regional fund if you shot it there. It's not so different from Hollywood. There are people shooting in Atlanta

because there's a lot of tax incentives to shoot in Atlanta. Probably more than 100,000 euros. Probably. Yeah. I'm, I'm interested, you know, you mentioned, obviously the film is in black and white and you're working with the same cinematographer as Anita. And I'm curious if it was kind of epiphanic for you in some way where this is sort of your style now, or if it's just appropriate to the story and the time that you're shooting in because photography in this film is just is incredible and i'm curious yeah um i mean the style is the result of the the this the material you know so it's not like i decide to make black and white film in static shots for the hell of it you know it's more that it just felt either was like a meditation a prayer

and not moving camera just made perfect sense and so the style yeah it's epiphanic in the sense that i'm really you know when i started working on either i really didn't give a damn you know i really didn't care if it's popular if it's not popular i just it wasn't very expensive to make 1.8 million dollars or something so so i just kind of did everything exactly the way I wanted, very calmly, put it all together, came up with a slightly eccentric style, with eccentric framing. In fact, I had two DPs on it, you know, one dropped out after eight days because he didn't quite get on with the style, his style well with me but with the style of the film um so it's it's basically a certain sense of security you know like this

is the story i really want to tell i know it inside out i know these people i know this world and the photographic approach is part of the love of that world you know I just decided I want to photograph it you know I don't want the usual kind of cinematic tricks with tracking shots close-ups and all the grammar I just want to make it like a like a photographic meditation with Cold War I moved on because it's a it's less of a meditation and a prayer it's more it's got more blood and guts and it's got more erotic charge and conflict and music and a heroine who's very energetic and fidgety so it had to move the camera moves that way yeah but it doesn't move for the sake of moving it's always some something to

do with that you know with the essence of the scene or the character of the scene or the and and and the black and white is much more punchy juicy more contrasty so you know it's very different I mean

it's vastly different the two films but I build on the kind of the certainty of Ida and I move on from that

you know this film needs some Cold War needs some other tools weapons you know so we do it, you know.

But it's all very logical and all very functional. It seems like there is a real deliberation that goes into the approach ahead of something like that, knowing that something is going to be more contrasty or juicy, as you say. Do you look at a lot of photographs before you start a film like this? Are you watching films to say these are the reference points we want to have when you're talking to your DP? You know, I've watched so many films in my life that they're all somewhere in the back of my head anyway. So, I mean, Ida was a point of reference in the sense that how do we move on from this, you know? And of course, you know, some critics interview me or write, they say, oh, we see clearly the influence of Tarkovsky. Oh, it's just like Casablanca.

Oh, it's just like Bresson. It's all true in some ways because I've watched all these films and loved them at different stages of my life. And it's all somewhere in my backpack. But there wasn't any kind of particular film that was a reference while I was making this one

we did look at a lot of photographs period photographs not necessarily by great photographers

just you know of locations of the folk ensembles of the period

they suggested some good angles how to shoot it great photographs of jazz

clubs in Paris in the 50s and of streets in Paris, you know, all the greats, Douarno and Bresson and whatever, Sif, CF. So, but it was just, there wasn't one, you know, it was more like we just need to bounce off from stuff. So there wasn't no kind no reference point for the film. Tell me about music in your films.

Particularly, obviously, in Ida, there's this incredible moment where that character sort of experiences something almost holy with music. And then there are several moments, obviously, in this film because it is largely oriented around the story of musicians and the way that the creation of music kind of creates a spark. Tell me about kind of figuring out what music to use for this film, how to shoot it. I'm interested in kind of the entire process

of that. At some level, I use music that I like, you know, and the tastes are pretty wide from Coltrane to Bach to rock and roll and folk music. But when Ida, it was straightforward. You know, I used music of the time, these kind of rockabilly pop songs that I grew up with when I was a small kid, but, you know, which really affected me and stayed with me. And then Coltrane because I wanted to I mean jazz was a big deal in Poland at that time but also I love Coltrane and there was something religious about

his music. That's one of my favorite sequences of the decade when she's listening to Coltrane. So incredible. So it's a mixture I love music in film, not necessarily composed music, but as a dramatic fact

in the world of the film. So in Ida, there was a bit of music on the radio, but also there was the band of the boy who she meets. In Cold War, it goes much further because I actually introduced the idea of this

folk ensemble and the fact that both my heroes are musicians of sorts, you know, professionals. And they meet through music, music keeps them together and music comments on where they are in the relationship and whether they are in geographically and in time so music becomes like this third character in the story and and i had a lot of license to play with it so so the basic idea was you know to take three songs from the repertoire of a folk ensemble called mazovshe which is a bit of a prototype for the folk ensemble that's in the film, Mazurek. And I chose three tunes that I remembered and liked. And what's more, they were all three capable of being on the one hand, reduced to basic folk music, very primitive folk music, which we hear

at the beginning of the film, but they also made sense as jazz tunes or chanson, like a jazzy chanson motifs. So these three tunes accompany the whole film practically in different guises. And sometimes audience recognizes them, sometimes it works subliminally, but they reappear. And then I worked with a jazz musician, friend of mine, who turned the folk tunes into jazz. You know, I asked him to do this oberek, a wild Polish dance from central Poland, to turn it into a bebop number, you know.

So when we cut to Paris for the first time, you have Victor's quintet playing this Polish folk song. Oh, I don't think I quite put that together. But it kind of works at some level. You remember at the beginning there's a woman with the accordion whom I asked her to perform it as well because that's not part of what she plays usually.

Then the folk ensemble dances it at the premiere in Warsaw and then when we cut to Paris it's the same. And then the two hearts tune, it becomes like the song of the film. And there's a third tune, which you hear in the studio when the relationship starts cracking up. It's this kind of sophisticated jazzy chanson so l'un de toi, l'un de toi it's actually a folk song that you hear at the very beginning of the film

so it's great to play with music and also to look for great folk performers we scoured Poland high and low to find these great voices and faces of these guys that opened the film and then we

threw in some other musics that kind of made dramatic sense. You know, there is Gershwin's I Love You Porgy, which helps me with the whole seduction scene because the seduction happens through music. Victor plays the chords from I Love You Porgy and Zula intuits the melody line, which she can't have heard because this was 1949 Poland and Gershon wasn't allowed to be played. But also it tells

you that Victor must have lived abroad before the war to know that tune. So that helped. And then the Rock Around the Clock, which happens in 1957, it's a great wedge between the couple. You know, Zula gets carried away by it because it's kind of appeals to her. And she's bored out of her head, but it appeals to her kind of animal instincts. Whereas Victor doesn't even notice it's being played. Yeah, and then you've got this kind of cheesy pop song at the end, you know, where she does kind of a biobongo, this kind of tropical number that Zula performs. And that's kind of that's really the kind of decline of Zula musically, you know, it's, it's, it's a band that obviously her new husband organized for her. And, and it's the cheesy pop music of the early 60s that flooded Poland, post Stalinist Poland. It's such a brilliant convention to sort of use it to mark time that way. You know, obviously I don't know anything about traditional Polish folk songs, but I do

know, I do know Gershwin, I do know Rock Around the Clock. I can tell from that style of song from the early 60s that, you know, they're sort of moving through time, even if we're not clearly identifying that the time is happening. Yeah, they're changing countries and they're moving through time as well. And then the little, I mean, little pleasures,

you know, when the folk ensemble goes to perform in Yugoslavia, what was then Yugoslavia, Kaczmarek, the careerist communist apparatchik who kind of runs the folk ensembles, is very proud to say that we have some Yugoslav number for the locals as a friendly gesture. And what they're playing is a very well-known Serbian folk song, but they're playing it in Croatia, in Split, you know, which is the heartland of anti-Serb feelings. So it was a kind of little perverse joke I introduced. But it's a beautiful song as well, this Svilankonac. And the song with which Zula introduces herself at the folk ensemble, you know, at the audition, because she kind of cons her way into it.

She's not a girl from the country. She's from a small town, nothing to do with folklore. And the song she knows how to sing is from a Soviet musical called Jolly Fellows. You know, it's a kind of Stalinist musical. Brilliant, brilliant music. But it was very eccentric for a Polish girl to sing a Soviet musical. And Viktor and Irena, who were auditioning her, would have hated the fact that she's singing a bloody Stalinist musical.

But it was so Zula, it was so her, that it charms the socks of Viktor anyway. When you're constructing that, are those remembrances or just is that pure invention from your point of view? A lot of it is remembrances. Really? This musical, my father, who was no communist, but he did adore this musical.

And I remember as a kid, I listened to this stuff, particularly this song, Serce, which Lubov Orlova sang. Lubov Orlova, by the way, friend of Chaplin's. And so that totally rang a bell. And I realized that, you know, the whole mental landscape of the film is to do with my parents, you know.

Just even the Gershwin, you know. When I was a kid, my father played me the Rhapsody in Blue and all the kind of Gershwin stuff. He loved it. And it kind of impregnated my, you know, whatever. I suspect that all of your films are deeply personal, but I'm kind of curious what it's like to have someone,

you know, kind of analyze, critique, or receive something like this that is so personal, that is so specific to your experience, and have them parrot back to you what they think it is or what they think it means? What is that like? It's good. I think, you know, it starts from personal sources,

but they try to make something that's, how do you say, that has many meanings, many layers, that's ambiguous, that's universal. So I'm very happy that people find their own way into it. The whole film is quite understated, you know, and that's always been my strategy, even in documentaries I used to make, to try and find universals in what's historical and personal and real, and to find a form that kind of suggests things

rather than spelling them out and fixing their meaning once and for all. Did Ida reset your expectations for what a film like this should or could do? You know, did you come in now with the expectation that more people will see it or that it will be received in a certain way? It wasn't a big deal, you know, it was just the main problem is how do I make a film that works? Sure, you did that already though, that's over now. I never got that.

Now I'm seeing it. With each film you know I'm my worst worst critic you know so in the end and then the fact that

it's traveling you know it's done really well in so many countries now I mean in the States it hasn't opened yet but it's done really well

and you've won prizes and you know prizes and above all you know it's a popular film strangely it's the first time

it's happened to me in Poland it was like 900,000 people went to see it and Spain France England you know, it's a popular film, strangely. It's the first time it's happened to me. In Poland, it was like 900,000 people went to see it. And Spain, France, England, you know, it's really quite amazing. But one thing I realized, already when I made my first documentary, I don't know, it was 1989, the first documentary I really was in control of, that if you make something totally for yourself,

so not art for art's sake, but art for my sake, and that's personal, it tends to actually turn out to be universal. So the more you mean it, and the more you try to do it honestly, find the kind of original form for it, the more you have a chance that it will actually hit chords, um, you know, abroad or with other people. What are you going to do next?

I have a couple of things, but, but I'm in the whirlwind of this promotional tour now. Uh, and I'm totally brainless. So I need to, you've been brilliant so far. Come on.

Oh yeah. It's kind of raving, like raving. Um, no, no, but it's, it's, you know, it's, it's it's i mean the traveling and stuff it really so

i have to you know after all this i have to decide which of the two scripts that i've written um is is the is is the one that will carry me for the next three years i end every show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen yeah i know you're a great student and teacher of film i'm really fascinated to know what's the last great thing that really moved you. I think it was The Serpent's Embrace, you know, this Colombian film. Yeah. Last time I thought,

oh God, I wouldn't have imagined this film and yet it makes great sense and it's beautiful. That's really fascinating. That surprised me and kind of came from, you know, unexpectedly. That's a great one. Actually, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about Paul Schrader. Paul Schrader was here a few months ago.

We were talking about First Reformed. And he's been citing you throughout the conversation around his film and how impacted he was by your work and the conversations that you guys had. I'm kind of curious about that story from your perspective and, you know, what that was like. And if you sensed that he was at work on something when you were having those conversations. Yes, I mean, he was very, he's very intense and he was a brilliant appreciator of Ida, you know, he kind of spotted things in it that nobody else saw, you know, the camera was static throughout, but, but he spotted that in fourth minute, you know, it moved slightly to the right. Oh wow.

So he really, he really watches. Uh, I don't know. I think it's, I think what really encouraged him possibly is the fact that you can make, if you make a film cheaply, you can make it on your own terms and you could,

and you don't have to worry about whether it's going to appeal to masses or to executives. And you could make a film about spiritual things as well, you know, as long as you find a form for it. So maybe, but having seen First Reformed, you know, I think Bresson and Bergman were much bigger influences than Ida. Yeah, but I think you got his brain moving. I think so. And also just encouragement to keep it small. Do it on your own terms or keep it small. Don't worry about the whole stuff around.

Pavel, thank you so much. Really appreciate you doing this. Thank you. Thanks again to Pavel Pavlikowssky and of course Amanda Dobbins. This has been The Big Picture. Please tune in later this week where I'll have a conversation with Vice Writer-Director Adam McKay, one of my favorite living filmmakers. See you then. Thanks again for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture,

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