The Big Picture - ‘Outlaw King’ Is Netflix’s Foray Into Prestige. Did It Work? | The Oscars Show (Ep. 97)

Episode Date: November 13, 2018

Dissecting ‘Outlaw King’ and what it means for Netflix’s upcoming releases of ‘The Ballad of Buster Scruggs’ and ‘Roma’ (1:20), stock up/stock down with ‘The Front Runner’ (23:15), and the emerging favorites for the Best Supporting Actress category (36:45). Now Netflix Wants to Conquer Prestige Movies—and the Oscars. Why? Sean Fennessey Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? It's Liz Kelley. We're launching a new podcast with our very own staff writer, Shea Serrano, called Villains. It's an eight-episode series that dissects iconic movie villains like Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs, Regina George from Mean Girls, and Killmonger from Black Panther. The first episode comes out on Thursday, November 15th,

but you can check out the trailer and subscribe right now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. is episode two of the Big Picture's Oscar show. And what are we going to talk about this week? We're going to talk about big ideas with Netflix, big ideas with Widows, big ideas with the front runner. But let's start with Netflix. With the Big Picture's Big Picture, the reason we're talking about this is because Netflix is trying to get into the prestige movie game. Boy, aren't they? And it's been a couple of years since they've been making original movies. People may remember Beasts of No Nation a few years back with Idris Elba. They may remember some wins in the documentary categories over the years. But this year really marks in the aftermath of some of their rom-com success, which maybe we can talk about a little bit, big time best picture aspirations. One of their first efforts

debuted on Friday. It's a film called Outlaw King. It's directed by David McKenzie. It stars one of our personal favorites, Chris Pine. It's the story of Robert the Bruce, one of the men who attempted to and then ultimately did free Scotland from England's rule. You wanted to be king. Well, you're king now. This is the price you pay. We only win if you survive. Amanda, do you think Outlaw King is a worthy prestige movie? No. Okay. And I think that's part of the problem here, is that I think it's a pretty worthy zone out and watch a movie.

I think it's a worthy... It's Friday night and I want to watch some people like fight on a battlefield. I miss Game of Thrones. I just generally like medieval stuff. That's great. I think it's perfectly acceptable in that range. And I think probably plenty of people watched it that weekend and kind of took that away. Like, hey, great.

Okay. I watched a bunch of fight scenes. Dope. I do not think that it will win at any awards. And it's been interesting that it was positioned as a prestige movie. Yeah, it was debuted at the Toronto International Film Festival in September. It's funny that you mentioned Game of Thrones. Our producer, Bobby, right before we started said,

this just felt like an extended Game of Thrones episode to me. Kind of minus the dragons, I suppose. Yes. You know, there is some lineage, and I can see some of the rationale in their thinking when they started production on the film, because it literally picks up where Braveheart leaves off. I mean, it is the story from William Wallace to Robert the Bruce and that connectivity in that time. And I don't know, it kind of like looks and smells like a movie that would be

nominated at the Oscars in 1997, but not one that would be nominated in 2018? Yes. It's beautifully shot. I mean, all of the vistas of Scotland looks great. It's a great travel advertisement. How about that catapult? Yeah. And it has the big set pieces. It has Chris Pine is playing. He's doing the resigned great man version of this character, which is always an Oscar favorite. And obviously also David McKenzie has some Oscar history himself. He directed Hell or High Water, which was nominated two years ago. I believe it was screenplay two years ago, yeah.

So I get it, but, and it also, I can see why they positioned it as a prestige movie because so much of this is like, you kind of hope people will receive it as the way that you advertise it. And sometimes prestige movies are good and sometimes they're really bad. And it is kind of, I guess, the cost of doing business in this game. They're trying to put themselves up for Oscars and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But I don't really think this was a win. It's tricky when something is meh. That's something that Netflix always has

to fight about because it's sort of always there. The lack of theater experience means that the leverage, the sort of stakes of experiencing the movie are pretty low. It encourages a lot of second screen watching, which is not great for the immersive quality of movies. We'll come back to that. we saw 22 July, which is Paul Greengrass's story about the terrorist attacks in Norway. And that is quite a long and intense recreation of this very tragic event. And that too, you know, Greengrass has a lot of history at the Oscars. He's made very serious, well-received films, United in 93, The Bourne films, most recently Captain Phillips. That movie was not very warmly received as well. You know, it's in stark contrast, I think, to the way that the company was able to shift the narrative over the summer with a couple of movies like Set It Up, It's All the Boys I've Loved Before, Bill Simmons' Family, Huge Fans of the Kissing Booth. There were all these sort of like teen and rom-com movies that people got really, you know,

invested in. You worked on a story with Alyssa Beresnack about the way that social media grew around those folks. So we know that they can do some of the things that Hollywood has prided itself on over the years, which is sort of like build and mint new stars and then position them and then sign them up to contracts. I think Zoe Deitch is doing another Netflix movie. I think Glenn Powell is doing another Netflix movie. So they're able to do those things. Getting to the Oscar is a little bit harder. This week, they are releasing The Ballad of Buster Scruggs, which is a film by another Oscar-winning team, the Coen brothers. It's a very interesting movie. It may or may not have started as a TV anthology series and then eventually

was windowed down to six mini films that are stitched together. There's been a little bit of disinformation about that because now that people are saying, well, this was never going to be a TV series or this was never meant to be, I don't know how seriously to take that. But the Coen brothers, No Country for Old Men is a Best Picture winner.

They're sort of routinely nominated at the Oscars. This movie too, while I am a big fan of it, there's something ambient in the like, huh, okay, I guess this is like a big deal that I have to take seriously. Do you sense what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, it's a Coen Brothers Western movie released during Oscar season.

So there is also history there. That's right. And I think it's really interesting that it's not being taken as seriously as No Country for Old Men or True Grit, just because that pedigree signals, you know, traditionally in award season, it's like, okay, box is checked. Coen Brothers, yes. Western, yes. Like, character actors who we would like to see get a shot. I mean, not to subtreat you entirely, but, you know, this really is kind of a total prestige Oscar-bait movie, and it's not really getting that buzz. And that was so interesting to me because we've talked a bit about this.

It's an anthology movie. And that might be part of the reason it's not getting as much traction because it has kind of like TV-esque elements. At the same time, it seems like it's definitely more suited to the Netflix experience itself. Which is, I wanted to bring up, because I watched Outlaw King at 10 a.m. yesterday, and I would like to talk more about my viewing experience watching Outlaw King, but one of the things I thought was, I have no idea why this isn't a miniseries. Just make it a miniseries. It's on Netflix. People like watching battles. We have Game of Thrones as evidence for that. And when Outlaw

King debuted at Toronto, it was 23 minutes longer, I believe. That's right. And it was not received well. And so much has been made of the fact that the director got the chance to make a tighter edit. It's much better, blah, blah, blah. I don't know whether it is because I was not at Toronto. Nor was I. I thought it was notable that the scenes that were cut according to an interview on IndieWire was an entire battle scene, some sort of like long chase scene, all of the action elements that I believe are the appeal of this movie. So, you know, I get he's a filmmaker. Well, I think that we have to acknowledge that one of the other appeals is the revealing nature of Chris Pine's performance, I would say also. Sure.

Though, again, give that more time. Yeah, sure. That was very short. I almost missed it. Do you think that that was maybe the entire 23 minutes that they just chopped out just full frontal Pine? That would be great. Okay. You know, I think that that would certainly give, that would definitely be more Game of Thrones-y.

That's true. Listen, I don't want to be the person that's like, hey, every piece of entertainment should just be Game of Thrones because that works. That's very boring. But on Netflix, you have this space. I think in a lot of ways, this would have made more sense in its environment if it's just a bunch of fight scenes and people can do what they do on Netflix. And it's kind of weird that it's so truncated. It's a very good point. And you're right about Buster Scruggs too, because it's these six different films that are kind of stitched together. And if you, you know, there's the presentationally, it's as if you had opened a book about the old West and that's how they

jump from story to story. But if you want it to just watch two and pause it and go make some pesto, come back, enjoy some pesto on a lovely oat loaf. I don't know. What are you, what are you eating pesto on? Pasta. Pasta, got it. And then come back and turn on the next four. You can do that. And it's an enjoyable thing. It's, that movie is actually, I think the runtime is longer than Outlaw King. I think it's two hours and 20 minutes, but because of that sort of segmentized nature, you know, it just feels different. It feels, it's oddly breezier. It's also just the Coen brothers and it's funny and it's, you know, sad just feels different. It feels, it's oddly breezier. It's also just the Coen brothers and it's funny and it's, you know, sad and sincere in some ways,

but also really arch in other ways. But I don't know what the goal of that is other than just pure engagement. And that kind of raises like a bigger picture question, which is like, why are they doing all these movies? And I don't totally know if I have the answer. Do you have the answer? No, I don't.

But I just, I want to reiterate what you just said. It's the paradox of, are they making the movies to enjoy and to watch on Netflix, which it sounds like Buster Scruggs is. It makes more sense. Yes. And also like True Grit and No Country for Old Men are big hits. You know, the pedigree of the Coen brothers doing a Western, we know that you're going to get something that ostensibly people actually really like. Unlike, say, a much smaller Coen brothers movie like The Man Who Wasn't There or something like that. This is them in their not just artistic but commercial sweet spot, so I get that. These other movies, I don't know. I don't know what they're for.

May I tell you a story about my viewing experience? Please do. So I watched this movie at 10 a.m. on a Sunday because, as has been mentioned already on this podcast and as will become a running theme, I suspect, I am terrible at watching movies at home. I have no attention span. I love going to the theater. I can focus. You take away my phone.

You take away all the distractions. And I'm there in the experience. Like cinema, wow, powerful. You put me on the couch. And then suddenly, I've got my phone. Suddenly, someone's in the kitchen. Like, I think about pesto, as you just mentioned. And that was great. So I was already nervous about Outlaw King. I sat down at 10 a.m. and I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to be a journalist and I'm going to

watch this movie for this podcast. And I did. Some other things that I did while watching Outlaw King were edit a piece. It's fine. It turned out well. Meal plan for the week. And most tellingly, I had about a 20-minute text conversation with a friend of mine who finally watched To All the Boys I've Loved Before this weekend. She's a mother of two young children, so she's catching up, catch her a break. But I just got an all-caps text message that was, oh my God, have you seen To All the Boys I've Loved Before? And I said, yes, I have. Isn't it wonderful? And then she wanted to go on a 20-minute, you know, all of the Peter Kavinsky feelings and Lana Condor and talking about all of it. And I was having this conversation about the power of one type

of Netflix movie while watching another. And one that was extremely successful and accomplished, I think it's goals, and one that maybe isn't doing that quite so well because of exactly what you were doing, which is completely distracted by everything else around you. Yes. And it's an interesting segue, I think, to talking about the news that happened around Netflix last week, which is that they decided, I guess, ultimately, philosophically, to break rank with what they had been doing in the past, which is they've decided to put movies in theaters. Now, there are a lot of caveats to this. The three movies that they've decided to put in theaters are Roma, The Ballad of Buster Scruggs, and Outlaw King. Outlaw King

was in one theater in Los Angeles in the Valley this weekend. Did you see it? You didn't see it in the theater? No. No, I decided to speak to, I decided to do journalism and do it at home. So that's what I did. I don't think that's what journalism is, but I'll give you a pass there. Similarly, Buster Scruggs, I think, is opening in two theaters in New York this Friday. Roma, on the other hand, and this is sort of the reason for this conversation ultimately, is opening on screens in three major cities, New York, Los Angeles, and Mexico City, which is where the film takes place. And it's an interesting choice by Netflix, because obviously, I suspect that Alfonso Cuaron,

the director and his team, encouraged Netflix quite vociferously to put this movie in theaters. You and I, as we said last week on this show, saw this movie in theaters where it is most definitely best watched. It's very powerful. It will be great for Academy voters, but also for just people who are interested in seeing movies at a grand scale. Some of this feels like just kind of a gentle nod to the decency of the theater-going experience as opposed to some sort of massive shift. Maybe I'm wrong. I think we can look forward to 2019 and Martin Scorsese has a movie called The Irishman coming out. Michael Bay has a movie coming out through Netflix next year.

You know, those are filmmakers who are used to the theatrical experience. Roma is unique in that it actually is quite an intimate film. And even though it has some sort of sweeping, incredible shots, traditional oners from Cuaron, I think if you have a nice size television in your home and you're able to put your meal planning aside and you're able to put your editing planning aside and you're able to put your editing aside, you could have a great

experience with this movie, particularly because, as we said, it's subtitled. It's in Spanish. And so you have to watch the film to watch the film. What do you think about their decision to go into some theaters? Well, I support it. I have a couple different thoughts here. I think what you

said about Roma requiring a bit more attention, but also being the type of film that actually will draw that type of attention is correct. I'm a terrible movie watcher, and I don't think that everyone is as slackerish as me. And I think also the people who seek out Roma will want to watch it and will be able to put things aside. I think there are more mature people in the world than I am for all the people who aren't. And I think the subtitles and just kind of it is also already getting such a critical acclaim that I think people will be like, oh, Roma, now it's time for me to put everything away and and make it like an event. Yeah, there's something sui generis about this. Yeah.

As much as an event can happen in your living room. I also, I think it's great that they're doing the theaters, both because I think that that's the best place to watch it, just because it was a really magical experience. I think we both had that, seeing it in theaters. But also, there's a lot of business stuff that we should unpack here. But in the concept of, does a theater run affect Netflix's ability to exist in the movie industry? Like conceptually, no, not at all. I think it's there for the people who seek it out. And then it's on Netflix for all of the people who can't make it to a theater. It's a little like a, I mean, this is a really facile comparison, but it's like concerts and Spotify. Like you can, you can go to the concert

if you're able and that's important to you. And it's a wonderful, special experience. But the album is there for everyone who actually wants to use it. Anytime they want. Yes. And that's the other thing about the point you made about To All the Boys I've Loved Before. Your friend can just kind of sit out the first three or four months of dialogue around that movie and then just go to it whenever he or she wants to. And just kind of have it and have that experience and maybe compel you, you know, lure you back into the communal aspect of watching movies by just texting you all morning. And also for all content producers, then she started Googling everything

and she found all your articles and podcasts. So, you know, you can sleep a little easier tonight. So, you know, I think conceptually, I hope they do more theater runs. I think it's great. I think it opens up opportunities for people who can take them. The business stuff we got to talk about because that's the real. There was an interesting side effect of some of this news that broke this week, which is Roma attempted to buy out a series of theaters at the Alamo Draft House, which is this theater chain spread across the country in many urban centers, but, you know, in Texas and New York and Los Angeles and all around.

And they wanted it to be a one-month long run from a time in November all the way through a time in December. And of course, Alamo Drafthouse was ultimately disinterested in this because halfway through that one-month four-walling, as they call it, the movie would be on Netflix. So if the movie opens on December 14th on Netflix, on December 17th, why would you go to a movie theater to see it? Unless you are, as we're saying, a true cinephile or someone who wants to have this highly emotional, high tension experience with no distractions. And Alamo Drafthouse ultimately declined and they will not be presenting Roma in their theaters. And I wonder if this is going to be an issue for them and more to the point, like how that affects the bottom line of the business, as you say.

Right. I do think some of it is that November to December is when all of the, quote, good movies are released. So they were also trying to eat a month of the Drafthouse's most profitable. And there's a lot of competition. I wonder in August if there's a Michael Bay movie, whether the Alamo Drafthouse is slightly more willing to come to terms. You make a great point. You know, and I think we'll see because clearly the Cuaron run is setting a precedent for all the other major directors that Netflix works with. And yes. Let me ask you a question.

Would you, you're a Netflix subscriber. Would you pay an additional $10 or $15 a month to have some sort of theater experience welded into that membership to say, like, I can also go to the theater? Let's say these theaters are owned by Netflix. Would you go to those theaters for that additional $10 and see those movies in that experience? Because you love to go to the movies. Yes, I do. Like everything, it depends on the fine print. So maybe I'm overcomplicating this. It depends on how much extra I'm paying. Can I reserve seats?

I'm so pro reserve seating. Please do not at me if you're one of these people who likes to get to the movie theater 30 minutes early. 100%. This is a reserve seating podcast. But, you know, I think they probably could figure it out. And yes, I never joined MoviePass. I thought that that was insane. I thought like MoviePass was basically an excuse for people to bitch about MoviePass as far as I could tell. But I would absolutely consider this because number one, it's a service I already have and it's much easier to expand a service that people are already used to giving money to. It somehow psychologically doesn't feel like such an addition. But I do like going to movies. And this would kind of bring together that Spotify plus the live concert experience that you were talking about.

And maybe that's something Spotify should look into if they're not already. Right. They probably are. How else does this affect the bottom line? If Alfonso Cuaron gets a theater release, then Martin Scorsese is on the phones right now demanding a theater release. And so is Michael Bay. And the question is how large it is and how much Netflix has to pay in order to facilitate that. And if they can't facilitate that, how many directors they lose or how many big projects they don't get because directors are still insistent that their movies be in theaters.

And especially when you start talking about wide releases and larger chains, it costs a lot to release a movie. It does. We've seen some struggles with some companies that have attempted to become not just production companies but distributors in recent years. This fall was a very complicated time for Annapurna Pictures in part because this is actually very hard to do. And it's very hard to work in tandem with the MPAA, with the theatrical groups working with those companies. Because Netflix is essentially, you know, assaulting the long-term business strategy of these companies. And, you know, it's a very uneasy union that they have. And Netflix is going to continue to want to work with high-tension filmmakers.

At the very least, I think, because what they get is conversations like this. They get a lot of press and attention and analysis. And Netflix really thrives on that stuff right now because it's a company that sort of operates in debt, but also has a high valuation. And so there's this complicated sort of financial scheme that is happening where they have to be in the public eye every day. They have to be discussed every day. Their content has to be debated every day. That's different even from every day. Their content has to be debated every day. That's different even from something like NBC, which even though it is programming 24 hours a day,

it doesn't have that same, the stakes don't feel that high. So it's an interesting thing and we'll watch as it develops and I'm sure we'll talk about it here. Anything else you want to say just about the Netflix prestige game? I'm really interested to see

whether Roma can kind of pierce the snotty Academy anti-Netflix bubble because it does really seem, in addition to Al King being not very good or being fine. It's like a passing grade. Right. And Scruggs being... It's good. It's not their best. But kind of like minor Coen brothers, it does seem like there is a latent bias against Netflix at the Oscars. You know what's a funny thing that has also happened too? There's one more original Netflix movie that is coming out this year that is called Bird Box.

Ah, yes. Which is directed by Suzanne Bier, who I believe is a Danish filmmaker. And it stars Sandra Bullock, who is of course one of the biggest movie stars on earth. And this movie has also been lumped in with a lot of this prestige conversation in part because the filmmaker and the star but also because of the platform because now Netflix has created this thing where all of a sudden we're like oh

a Netflix original movie in December maybe it is prestigious my understanding though I have not seen the movie is it actually has more in common with the movie Bright which was released by Netflix last December maybe not not necessarily quality-wise, but that it is more of a sort of a popcorn movie than it is awards fair. We'll see whether that's true or not. But it's so funny how quickly the narrative shifts where we go from within the span of 12 months,

we've gone from Bright to Cuaron. That's true. And maybe that's one more reason why they've decided to make these choices is because then everything seems a little bit better, a little bit more high-toned. I think so. I just am curious whether people will go along with that.

We'll have to wait and find out. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. Today's episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Kavo. Kavo Control Center with Universal Remote makes everything you have connected to the TV, including the remote control, easy for the whole family to use. Kavo Control Center with Universal Remote makes everything you have connected to the TV, including the remote control, easy for the whole family to use. Kavo Control Center is the first truly universal TV remote control for your entire home theater.

You can connect up to four devices like live TV, cable, DVR, game consoles, Apple TV, Roku, and more, plus a sound system. Once you connect Control Center, you can use the all-in-one voice-activated TV remote to control everything that's connected to your TV. Just ask, relax, and enjoy. The Cabo Control Center lets you conduct true universal search across all your apps and subscriptions and centralizes all your content in one place. So it's easy to find what you want to watch. Simple to set up, family-friendly, and works with Google Voice and Amazon Alexa. Plus, shipping is free and comes with a 30-day guarantee. I'm Sean Fennessey.

This is Amanda Dobbins. We're back on The Big Picture, the Oscar show. Amanda, we're going to do Stock Up, Stock Down. You ready? I'm so ready. We're talking about The Front Runner. The Front Runner is Jason Reitman's new movie. It's his second film this year after Tully,

which is a movie I quite liked. I interviewed him earlier this year. I encourage you to check that out on this feed. The Front Runner is the story of Gary Hart, prospective presidential candidate in 1987, I believe. Yes, correct. And his downfall and what his downfall meant and what it actually means. You know, there's a great story on The Ringer right now by Kate Nibbs about not just this movie, but also sort of what that story represented about media and politics and the way that things have changed or maybe not changed over the last 30 or so years.

The Frontrunner was released last election day in a sort of stunt, and it sort of failed. And that's an interesting thing to kind of break down. You know, Jason Reitman, I think, was very knowing about this, and he said that this was, in fact, a stunt in an effort to kind of gin up some publicity about the movie, knowing full well that most people would be spending their day either voting or just watching the polls at the end of the day. What did you think about this stunt and also about this movie, which I think is an interesting subject? Yeah. Also, I just want to say the frontrunner is no longer the frontrunner was like right there for you. And I admire you not

taking it. Sheesh. This is this is stock up, stock down, you know? You're right. You're right. I thought the election day thing was not wise. I remember even being a little startled when I saw it. I understand it as a peg. You know, it's a crowded world and you got to get attention. Unfortunately, the election took all of the attention before and after. And it just seems like a movie about a political scandal that no one under 30 was even alive for. It just didn't have a chance. And I do think it's true. They will be kind of releasing it wider as the month goes on and you can always

get more attention. But I really believe like the first shot is the the first impressions count i don't know that it will get back a ton of attention i think the other thing that's in tandem with this is that this movie is too nuanced to get any attention and i don't think it's it has some pretty clear lessons it's a movie about a great man and his downfall it's you know it's not sensing a theme on this podcast. And at the Oscars and history. It's fine. But I do, I wouldn't say that it's the most nuanced movie ever,

but in the current climate, if you will, and also especially around the election when everyone was just very much on their side, it's hard to imagine anything this thoughtful getting traction, which is a terrible thing to say, but. No, it's, I mean, it's sad, you know, for those who don't know the story of Hart, you know, he was a Democratic nominee, Senator from Colorado, who was sort of a private person, but also there had been rumors for many

years that he had been having extramarital affairs. I mean, my man hung out with Warren Beatty, which the film kind of slides past. He lied to that fact, yeah. And, you know, he was an interesting figure. He was very charismatic, a little bit actually robotic, but quite a good speaker and sophisticated and had foresight about some significant issues. So Democrats really tabbed him as the next great president, someone who would challenge George H.W. Bush for the presidency. And one of those extramarital affairs he got caught with. And, you know, it's famously covered by the Miami Herald that that's who broke the story.

The movie goes into great detail about how that happened and what those decisions cost, not just Hart, but also maybe the media, dignity in American politics. There are a lot of kind of ideas working in place here. However, and I think one of the reasons that Reitman liked the movie and responded to this book that Matt Bayh wrote about this whole story and its aftermath is that there are some reflections of our modern political moment. This is a story about a guy who cheated on his ex-wife and then tried to cover it up. And that just, as you say, just feels like weirdly nuanced and modest compared to the noisy, aggressive, bizarre moment we find ourselves in now. So I think it's probably not going to register as resoundingly because of that. It's true. And, you know, it's a shame because the movie and also Matt Bayh's book position that Gary Hart's scandal is kind of

the turning point in American politics in terms of our emphasis on the private lives of public figures. And that's a really interesting question. And it's one that I've found myself as a journalist and as a person who loves celebrity gossip thinking a lot about. And there is no real answer because it is true that the media got a little aggressive with Gary Hart. It's also true that while campaigning, he went to party on a yacht called Monkey Business. So there are it's an ongoing question of what is the responsibility of the media, of politicians and certainly applicable to right now. I don't know that anyone will go see it and then engage with those questions, which is a shame for the movie and is also a shame for our political system. Yeah, to me, it's ultimately a more interesting movie, I think, about the concepts of privacy

and how privacy has eroded, not just in politics, but kind of in the world at large. You know, there's just so many outputs for people to share what's happening with themselves and also similarly to kind of capture people doing things that they either should or should not be doing. And that aspect of it I found really appealing. It's too bad too, because, you know, Hugh Jackman is a very interesting actor who is often doing things where I wish he would just turn down the volume like three degrees. And this is a very controlled, interesting performance. I think his wig is doing a lot of the work in this movie or his hair or whatever it is. But he's also he's quite good in the movie. And I think if it had been positioned differently or released at a different time, there would be a lot more energy going towards him in this in this race.

And we talked about Best Picture last time we were doing this. And all of a sudden, I'm like, well, I guess he's just not going to be there. Yeah, I think you're right. I really liked the Jackman performance. There is a scene on the aforementioned monkey business yacht that's just a shot of him that I thought was pretty astonishing. And I've never seen Hugh Jackman like that. And his face just kind of changes.

But I'm not sure it ever would have been in the Best Actor conversation, because as soon as you put attention on him, then the way these conversations, and we're going to talk a lot about this in the coming months, but the way that these Oscar races go, you're judging the character and the morals as much as you are judging the performance often. And it's not a climate for Gary Hart right now, I would say. I agree with you. Let's talk about what we do want in this climate. And that's going to take us to our next segment, which is this week's The Buzzword. The buzzword this week is crowd pleaser. Amanda, you and I both saw the movie Green Book last week. We did. Green Book is an incredibly charming movie that really surprised me. It's

directed by Peter Farrelly, one half of the Farrelly brothers, who people may know from There's Something About Mary, Kingpin, any number of gross out brilliant comedies. This movie is a little bit different. It stars Viggo Mortensen and Mahershala Ali, Academy Award winner Mahershala Ali, as two men in, I believe, is it 1960? Yes. And Viggo Mortensen is a bouncer at the Copacabana,

and he has been hired by Mahershala Ali, who plays a man named Doc Shirley, who is sort of a jazz musician, pop musician, piano player. And he has essentially been hired to escort him around the American South for an unlikely tour with his music. And of course, there's a lot of complicated things on the surface of this movie, which is we've seen movies like this before about a white man and a black man and what the people can teach each other about humanity and existence and decency. And these movies are often very treacle, but they're also very effective. And we've seen examples of it in the past.

Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on Green Book, but also the idea of the crowd pleaser, because I think this movie is going to make people really happy. It certainly is. And it made me very happy, which I was surprised by. The trailer features two of our greatest actors, In Vigo and Mahershala. Do you foresee any issues in working for a black man?

You and the Deep South? There's gonna be problems. Promise me you're gonna write me a letter. No problems. Tell me that don't smell good. I've never had fried chicken in my life. Good people love the fried chicken. You have a very narrow assessment of me, Tony. And if you have any experience of this, you watch it and

you think, oh no, this is like a, oh no, a white man is going to learn that racism is bad. And then a lot of people are going to feel very proud of themselves that they watched a movie and they also learned that racism is bad. And, you know, I think we should talk about those elements of the movie. And I think there is a discussion to be had. The movie is ultimately a bit more than that. It's about two men who become friends. I have been calling it a rom-com, a platonic rom-com between Vigo and Mahershala. And I don't want to spoil the last shot, but the last shot is really rom-com magic. It is also such a compelling performance from each of those guys.

And it's so fun to just watch them that at some point you just kind of can't resist. So for me, I ended up really liking it. And I think a lot of people will find something else to like in it, which is I think probably the most succinct definition of a crowd pleaser is there's something for everybody. I tend to think of it, I go to the movies with my family a lot over the holidays because what else are you supposed to do? And the movie that you can go and grandma and your 11-year-old cousin and you can also all sit there together and nothing terrible happens and no one is scarred at the end of the movie. That's a crowd pleaser. I think that's right. And I think that there is something in this movie that fits the definition.

And we've seen other movies like this in the past. You can, as recently as Hidden Figures, this was the classic crowd pleaser. You know, 10 or 12 years ago, we had Little Miss Sunshine. That was a crowd pleaser. You know, there have been sort of more unfortunate examples of this movie that haven't aged as well. You know, Driving Miss Daisy famously was a crowd pleaser and operating in a similar role where sort of a black man teaches a white woman about how things work and much of it happening in a car. This movie, though, and you used the word nuance earlier to talk about the front runner. There is a little bit more nuance. There's also a lot more charm.

And it's quite funny. It also just rides completely on these two performers and i think if this movie had starred i don't know even two great actors like if it had just been let's say tom hanks and denzel that's the highest possible level you could have put in this movie right that would have been the 100 million dollar version of this movie i don't even necessarily know that it would have been better which is weird to say but there's something specific about both of the actors that fits in the tone and the meter of this movie. There is also a chemistry, which is, again, why I bring up romantic comedies.

It's that they are really working against and, well, working with each other. And there is that just kind of ineffable magic of, oh, it's these two people who do really like being together and are discovering that. And then you you as an audience member want to be along for the literal ride. Yes. I'll be shocked if both of these guys are not nominated. I'll be shocked if this is not nominated for Best Picture. I'll be very surprised if it's not a big hit. It comes out on Thanksgiving, as you say. It's perfect to go to with your family. It's for everyone. It's also just for our purposes, a very interesting story to tell

about somebody like Peter Farrelly, who is certainly an interesting filmmaker insofar as he's just made a lot of movies that people have seen and like and have thought about and memorialized. Never done anything like this. And it's fun to say like, oh, you can be 60 and shift the direction of your career. Obviously, he's got all the advantages in the world and he's a very successful and powerful person, but he has managed to evolve his style in a way to make this story work. And it's also, we should say, based on a true story and it doesn't feel kind of ginned up. A lot of what happens in the movie feels credible. And one of the co-writers of the movie is Tony Lip, who is Viggo Mortensen, plays his son. And so, you know, there's a lot of veracity is probably too strong a word, but there's something authentic about it. I think so.

I think there's also a lot of, you know, despite the trailer and kind of what it looks like on the surface, which I think you and I were both surprised by how good it was. Most definitely. And you're right, the trailer is just not. Well, the trailer is for a different audience the trailer is trying to make it make it a hundred million dollar movie but i will say that despite skepticism for the nature of the film there is a lot of goodwill there's goodwill towards vigo as well and who has just been in every type of movie everyone has a vigo performance that they just love which you can't say for a lot of people. And then a tremendous amount of goodwill for Mahershala, who we should note will also be starring in season three of True Detective starting in January. So Mahershala's season cometh. It is upon us. And it's an interesting

thing. We've seen this before where an actor positions a couple of projects simultaneously. I mean, I don't think Mahershala necessarily schemed this, but it's sort of like watching two corporate entities realize like-minded opportunity. And Mahershala just being everywhere while nominated for a Golden Globe and then nominated for an Oscar and then starring in a prestige cable channel's biggest show for that season is good fortune kind of for everyone. And I think we'll be seeing a lot of Mahershala. And you know, the thing is, is that, and we've, you know, we've seen him at parties in Los Angeles. We've seen him like in the world. He is a genuinely charming, decent, cool guy. And so there's a lot of people just root for him. If you come across him or you see him in a show or something, you're just like, I like that guy. Yeah. And I also think that's true of the Green Book performance, which for me really confirmed, you know, we knew he was great. We knew that he was super charming. He looks

great on the cover of GQ, extremely handsome. You root for him, but he just fills up the screen and it's kind of, oh, this isn't an accident. This is a real, real actor. This is a real career that we're watching happen in real time. And it's exciting to be a part of that, to feel like you ran on the ground floor and now this person is probably going to win, has a good chance to win his second Oscar in what, two years? Yeah, it would be two and three years if he were to win this year. And I think in many ways he is, pardon the pun, the front runner for that Oscar right now.

From best supporting actor to best supporting actress, let's talk about The Big Race. Our husbands aren't coming back. We're on our own. This is an interesting time. On Friday, the movie Widows opens. This is Steve McQueen's fourth film. Steve McQueen, of course, directed 12 Years a Slave,

Shame, Hunger, great British filmmaker. Widows is awesome. The best thing we have going for us is being who we are. Why? Because no one thinks we have the balls to pull this off. I was just going to say, can I just start screaming, Widows! Yeah, Widows is great.

It's fun. It's funny. I mean, you and I are oddly agreeing a lot more than I suspected thus far on this show. Maybe we'll change that as we get to December. But I think, you know, you and I are oddly agreeing a lot more than I suspected thus far on this show. Maybe we'll change that as we get to December. But I think, you know, you and I saw Widows a couple of weeks ago. We're talking about Best Supporting Actress because, of course, Viola Davis is the star of this movie. I suspect she'll be nominated. She's already won previously for her work in Fences. However, I think that this is a really interesting movie to talk about in the Best Supporting Actress race

because there's a few figures. You know, maybe they'll be nominated, maybe they won't, but there's kind of a lot to unpack here. So the stars of this movie are Viola, Colin Farrell,

Brian Tyree Henry. Those are the guys. I was just going to say. Robert Duvall, whom I love. Wonderful Robert Duvall performance. Liam Neeson, obviously. Yeah, that's fine.

It's not a movie about him. John Bernthal. Should I list all the other men? Yeah, there are a lot of nice men who we wish well. Congratulations to them. Shout out to them. Yeah. Here are the people that I'm most interested in talking about. Michelle Rodriguez, Elizabeth Debicki, Carrie Coon, and Cynthia Erivo. Yes, because this movie is about them. This is a movie about women. That's just an exciting, rare thing to say in Oscar season. So let's just focus on that. It's a movie about women. And all four of those women are great in this movie.

They all sort of have their moment. For me personally, the person who leapt off the screen was Elizabeth Debicki, who is, you know, people may know her from The Man from U.N.C.L.E. Or what was that John le Carre adaptation that AMC had on? The Night Manager. The Night Manager. She's been in Marvel movies. She's an extraordinarily tall woman. I was going to say, and she's quite tall.

Very tall. She's very graceful, quite beautiful. And she's a great actress. And this is a really cool role for her. She basically plays a sort of a young woman from Chicago who has maybe not been treated by the people in her life very well. Her mother, boyfriends. She's kind of at cross purposes in her life trying to figure out who she should be and what kind of person she should be. She's really good in this.

She's very good in it. And I'm curious to see if the, I think what's going to happen is that the reviews are going to hit this week. And people are going to start to earmark her over all these other people, even though those other actresses we'll talk about are quite good in this movie. And there's going to be a campaign, a momentum campaign. I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. She is also kind of an Oscar blogger's favorite, for lack of a better word. The people who see a lot of movies really love Debicki and have been kind of anticipating this. In the same way it's, you know, Claire Foy season or Mahershala season, it's Debicki season, which is great.

I think Debicki is a great threat to Claire Foy in this race. That's fine. I don't think Claire Foy is going to win this Oscar. You know, I love her. I wish her the best. We're just happy to be nominated. Okay. Okay. But I'm going to put Cynthia Erivo in the mix because she's the one who jumped out to me. She shows up really it's halfway through the movie. Yes. And then it's just takes it away. And she also, as you and I have discussed a bit, is nearing EGOT territory. That's true. And people love an EGOT.

They do. For those of you who don't read the internet, God bless you. An EGOT, just really keep making your choices. An EGOT is an award that was made up and then popularized by 30 Rock. And it's someone who has won an Emmy, an Oscar, a Grammy, and a Tony. And there are not that many EGOTs in history. I think it's like 22. Yeah. And fewer women EGOTs as well.

So this would be a big achievement. And Erivo's three out of four right now. And so people really do like to root for that. And when you have a little extra narrative built in, you tend to stick around longer in Oscar season. And she's a person, you know, this is only, I think, either her second or third film role.

She's best known as a stage actress. She's British. She plays an extremely tough woman from Chicago in this movie, quite credibly. You know, people may have seen her, though probably not many people, in Bad Times at the El Royale, which was a thriller that came out in October.

And in that movie, she plays a kind of Mary Wells, Diana Ross-esque pop Motown singer. And she sings a lot and it's a very physical performance. She's very good in that movie, which I think was not very well received. And this also is a very physical kind of performance. She's really tough and kind of acting with her body and her brain at the same time. And you're right. She does jump off the screen. There's several scenes in which she's just running. Yes.

They're like on the level of the Tom Cruise running kind of scene. And she's really quite powerful. If she's not nominated here, and she may be, I think we're going to see her again pretty soon because she seems like a person who, you know, studios have noticed, the agencies have noticed. It's sort of like Cynthia Erivo is now on the radar. It's happening, yes. And that's an interesting thing to happen.

You know, Michelle Rodriguez and Carrie Coon have smaller roles and I think maybe slightly less defined roles in this movie. They're both very good. I think they have no chance to be nominated. I do wish Michelle Rodriguez would do more movies like this. And I think she has, unfortunately, a kind of quote-unquote bad reputation for being difficult on set. And Steve McQueen has talked about this, and he was like, she was wonderful on set and great in this movie.

And, you know, she's obviously become very successful for all her work in the Fast and the Furious films. But she got her start in independent film. You know, she was in Girl Fight, that great Karan Kusama movie many years ago. And I don't know. I just like Michelle Rodriguez. I do, too. I mean, I think the other thing is they don't make that many movies like this. So if they made more movies where, you know, I walked out of it and we'll talk more about

Widows once people have seen it, but there have been several kind of gender reversal reboots in recent years, which kind of all boil down to, you know, what if a heist movie, but women, or what if a Ghostbusters, but women, or whatever. And the whole thing where you're making a movie about women seems to be an afterthought. And it's not so much an afterthought in Widows, it's just, it's kind of the thing. And it's a movie about women and they just keep going. And it's just a really great heist movie. And it was exhilarating. And I think if people want to make more heist movies starring women, which also, by the way, are kind of what the Fast and Furious movies are, Michelle Rodriguez should do all of them. If you want to hear more about Widows, please stay tuned to this feed.

We'll be covering it with some sincerity. And, you know, I'm reluctant to do this given that you've just debunked it as a concept. But I think that the movie that we're going to talk about in this category is kind of interesting because it's sort of Outlaw King, but with women, which is the favorite. Well, no, take that back. You're not putting the favorite in the same sentence as Outlaw King, okay? Okay. It's odd to be consecutively hyping a movie as aggressively as we are with Green Book and Widows and The Favorite. But those are three of my favorite movies of the year, candidly.

And The Favorite is also a contender in Best Supporting Actress. And we'll kind of wrap things up by talking about this because it's an interesting movie that stars primarily three women. I apologise for my appearance. I hoped I might be employed here by you as something. A monster for the children to play with, perhaps. Rachel Weisz, Emma Stone, and Olivia Colman. It was announced about a month

ago that Olivia Colman would officially be placed in the Best Actress category by Fox Searchlight, who is releasing the movie, which leaves Rachel Weisz and Emma Stone, both of whom have Oscars, running in Best Supporting Actress. And this is an interesting thing, and I think we might even disagree a little bit on this one.

And we're going to talk about category fraud as time goes by on this show. But I'm not totally sure that they have aligned the correct formulation here and who fits in what category. And I'm curious to see who will suffer for it. Oh, I see. Who do you think, because Olivia Colman is going to be nominated. And she's steady money to win in Best Actress. And she's very good in the movie. She plays the queen

Emma Stone and Rachel Weisz I'm not sure both are making it and maybe neither makes it maybe they cancel each other out I was going to say yeah do you think

either will make it? I mean the case for them is they're really famous and they're really liked by the Academy and the show definitely wants people like that at the show

but it's challenging because I would say they have about equal screen time. They're obviously pitted against one another in this film, which creates a kind of meta-narrative to this whole thing. If you had to just put money on it today, who's going to be at the Oscars nominated as Best Supporting Actress, Emma Stone or Rachel Weisz? Probably Emma Stone because she's more famous. And also because, as you pointed out, and I think this is true, even though I

remain part of the Rachel Weisz hive, is that Emma Stone has kind of the more interesting arc. She gets to do more weird stuff. And everyone's doing some pretty weird stuff in the movie. Yeah, this is Yorgos Lanthimos who made The Lobster, The Killing of a Sacred Deer. This is a very strange movie. It's beautiful and interesting and funny and incredibly staged. But it's weird. Yorgos' movies are weird. But Emma Stone is playing a bit more against type, which the Oscars likes in general, but especially in the supporting actress category.

And she's more famous. And somehow Rachel Weisz has already won. Rachel Weisz won in supporting actress. Yes, for The constant gardener. Yeah, so I kind of think they'll pivot to Emma Stone in that role for whatever reason. It's flashier. Flashy wins.

It's hard to say because right now, if you look at Gold Derby's odds for this category, it's four contenders in films that have not been released. Regina King is 39 to 10, which is an odds formulation I've never seen. And then the lead for If Beale Street Could Talk, Barry Jenkins' film. Emma Stone is here.

Amy Adams is here for Vice. She's playing Liz Cheney. The perennial Amy Adams nomination. Amy Adams, who I think has been nominated five times and has never won. So keep an eye on her. Yeah. Your beloved Claire Foy, who I sense is sinking.

Rachel Vice for the favorite. And then there's a few stragglers at the bottom. Obviously, we talked a little bit about Elizabeth Debicki. She is not in the top 10. I think Marina de Tavira is a very interesting figure too from Roma. And when people see the movie, they will start to see, I could see her rising in estimation. And the supporting categories are also often friendlier

to foreign language performers than the lead categories. And then there's a few others. You know, Nicole Kidman is very good in Boy Erased. Michelle Yeoh in Crazy Rich Asians, I think would be a great thing. I would love that one. The Crazy Rich Asians campaign has not really started, which I'm a little confused by. If I were Warner Brothers, I would be going out of my way

to push the kind of second round of that movie. I'd, you know, be pushing it on VOD. I'd put billboards up. Like, it's a real FYC movie where if you remind people how much they liked it, it might do wonders for it. We'll see about Michelle Yeoh, Margot Robbie in Mary Queen of Scots. We haven't seen that film yet. Linda Cardellini, who plays Vigo's wife in Green Book. Debicki, we discussed. It's an interesting category that feels very unsettled. Two months ago, I would have been like, maybe Letitia Wright

from Black Panther will be nominated. But now it seems like there's no chance. That would be great, though. It would be fun. We're going to be back in two weeks. And starting in two weeks, we're going to be with you every single week. Are you ready for that, Amanda? I'm ready. In the meantime, this has been The Oscar Show. Thanks very much, listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture, which is brought to you by Kavo. The Kavo Control Center is the first truly universal TV remote control for your entire home theater. Connect up to four devices and centralize all your content in one place so you can easily find what you want when you want it.

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