The Big Picture - 'Parasite' Is the Movie of the Year—Will the Oscars Agree? | The Oscars Show

Episode Date: October 15, 2019

After winning the Palme d'Or at Cannes, soaring to international box office success, and riding a wave of extraordinary festival buzz, Bong Joon-ho's 'Parasite' has finally hit U.S. theaters. Donnie Kwak joins Amanda and Sean to break down Bong's career, what makes his latest so special, and the movie's chances come Oscar time (1:52). Then, Sean and Amanda break down the evolving conversation around 'Joker,' two unusually bad trailers that premiered over the weekend, and the complex race for Best International Feature Film (28:56). Host: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Donnie Kwak Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you. along the way. We'll be having conversations with peers, idols, and maybe a rando or two. The Road Taken with CT and Baio, part of the Ringer Podcast Network on all podcast platforms. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Parasite. We are joined today by The Ringer's Donnie Kwok to discuss what I think we can safely call

the movie of the year so far. Parasite is writer-director Bong Joon-ho's seventh feature film, possibly his best, and the talk of the movie world after a massive opening, but very small release weekend. In May, the movie won the Palme d'Or, the highest honor at the Cannes Film Festival. It made its U.S. premiere to more acclaim at Telluride in September, and then tore the house down in Toronto in the New York Film Festival. Finally opened in very limited release this weekend. Per deadline, New York's IFC Center and LA's Landmark and Arclight Hollywood posted the best screen opening average of the year to date,

with $125,000 and the best ever for a foreign language movie off a three-day of 376 thousand dollars. For context, the host Bong Joon-ho's 2006 movie opened in 71 theaters in March 2007 and it made just 314 thousand dollars total. The movie has amassed 90.4 million dollars overseas, 78 percent of that coming from South Korea. How do we talk about this movie without spoiling it for all of the people in the United States who have not seen it? We will do our best here on The Big Picture. So let's go to The Big Picture's Big Picture. This is a problem in The Big Picture. Do you know what I mean? Amanda and Donnie, you are New York and LA correspondents here on The Big Picture. You both saw the film. You both saw the film in those two theaters that they have opened in. Donnie, why don't we start with you?

Tell us, set the scene for the IFC Center. What was happening when this movie opened? Well, I have to first make a confession in that the IFC Theater, where I saw it on Saturday night, it wasn't actually my first time seeing it. I couldn't wait. After it won the Palme d'Or, of course, it's been out in Korea since the summer. So I got an illegal download and I watched it. Sorry to say, but I had to watch it again, obviously, to get the theater experience. IFC, I mean, you guys know IFC. It's a tiny kind of grungy theater there on 6th Avenue downtown near NYU. I mean, it was a line, a super long line, and the theater was packed,

and there was like a palpable energy in the crowd. You know, the entire weekend was sold out, and they were doing shows at like 9.55 a.m. all Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So there was, you know, a real energy and excitement with the crowd, but it was definitely packed to the gills. Amanda, what about you? What was LA like? Same experience. I was at the Arclight at the 4.30 p.m. Saturday showing. It was also my second time seeing it, but I wanted to have that theater experience. And it was really an event. It kind of felt like movie nerd Christmas. There was definitely a line in every aspect of getting into the theater.

It was packed. I saw random friends that I knew there, which never happens in Los Angeles. I met some big picture listeners. Oh, my God. It really did feel like everyone who is invested in movies just was there opening night because this is a big deal. Anecdotally, this is probably the number one movie that people have asked me about since the fall season started. The number one movie people have asked us to talk about on the show. I'm very curious to see how quickly it goes wide because it seems like there is an authentic interest in

the movie, which is highly unusual for a foreign film, highly unusual for a Korean film. Donnie, why don't you give us a little bit of context for why this movie is a big deal? Tell us a little bit about Bong. What does he mean to South Korea? Maybe what he means to filmmaking in general? Well, Bong Joon-ho as a director, I think it's safe to say now that he's the biggest Korean director globally. In the past, you know, there's been interest in other Korean directors.

Of course, Park Chan-wook, who made Old Boy and Handmaiden. Hong Sang-soo, who's more of like an arthouse fave. Lee Chang-dong, of course, Burning from last year. But I think Bong Joon-ho has kind of successfully threaded the needle of being extremely popular domestically. I mean, in Korea, and then also very popular internationally. He's kind of part of what I would consider like what people call kind of the Korean New Wave, which was around the turn of the century, 1999, I think 2000, 2001. I think Bong Joon-ho's debut was 2000. All of those directors that I mentioned kind of, you know,

emerged at that time. And then it's been kind of a steady build up until now for someone to really break through and make a film on this scale that's getting this much attention. Yeah, what is it that you think has broken through for him over the years? Because obviously it's unusual for U.S. audiences to care about any filmmaker that is not making English language films. And I think that there has been a kind of steady movement over the last 15 years waiting for this coronation. There has been like we've kind of steady movement over the last 15 years, waiting for this coronation. There's been a, like, we've kind of anticipated him getting to the place, and he's made, obviously,

a lot of great films that people really like. Memories of Murder, his second film, I think, is sort of a breakout, and was a breakout for him in Korea as well. But what is it about his movies that people are attaching themselves to, do you think? I think it's really, he's just, you know, with not being a film critic myself,

I would just say he's just an audience pleaser. And the types of films he makes are kind of great popcorn fare, but also with deeper levels. You know, Park Chan-wook, who I mentioned, who made Old Boy and The Handmaiden as a comparison, his films are a little bit more challenging, I would say, or the sensibility is a little bit less broad. Not that Bong Joon-ho doesn't get into deeper issues, but I think just on a surface level, his movies can be enjoyed by, you know, whether you're Korean or American, European or whatever, they have that kind of popcorn sensibility that I think kind of, you know, travels. I think that's true. Although I think there's something quite visceral about all the movies he makes, and he really leans into genre historically. And Amanda, I would say that you

are maybe not the world's most sincere fan of viscera. That's not really... That's a great point. It's not really something you look for. So what was your relationship to Bong before this breakout? It's true. I don't like to be upset when I go to the movies. That's literally what I'm looking for. And I was going to say that he plays with genre. And I do think that that has been a lot of what's helped his crossover in the United States.

Like, you go to see Snowpiercer and it's an action film and like Chris Evans is in it, which is still wild in 2019. The Captain America is in this movie. But you go to see an action movie and then you leave us some larger ideas about class or capitalism, which is a running theme through all of his movies. You go to Okja and it's like a cute Spielbergian movie and then some other

things happen. And this movie, without spoiling too much, well, can we say it's a thriller yeah absolutely i think it's definitely a thriller i think there's i think it's definitely genre but not as hard genre as something like the host which is a monster movie yeah and so to go back to your idea of someone who is who doesn't like to be upset but still really enjoys these movies they are genre but i think the virtuosity of Bong Joon-ho is that he can really spin a genre around five different ways. Like in a minute, these movies turn on a dime and suddenly it's a thriller and then it's suddenly really emotional and then it's suddenly really upsetting. But there are underlying themes and there is just a sense of intelligence and command in his movie making. I always feel like someone is really driving the ship. It's a master at work. And somehow that makes me less upset while watching

it, if that makes any sense. It makes total sense. I saw the movie a second time this weekend as well, also at the Arclight. And when it was over, I saw it with my wife who hadn't seen it before. She just turned to me and she just said, that was masterful, which is not the sort of thing that she would normally say when we go to a movie. Donnie, I'm going to give you a complicated task. Are you ready? I'm ready. Can you describe the synopsis of Parasite? What is the premise of this movie? The premise of this movie without spoiling anything, yeah? Yes. Just give us an elevator pitch.

Okay. It's a family called the Kims who are living in a semi-basement in kind of the underbelly of Seoul. They're a poor family. And the story is essentially them infiltrating a well-to-do family called the Parks who live in a very fancy architectural digest style house in a posh suburb of Seoul. Is that a couple sentences? Does that do it? That's close enough. Yeah. There is essentially an infiltration that starts to take place there. Can you kind of situate us a couple sentences? Does that do it? That's close enough. Yeah, there is essentially an infiltration that starts to take place there. Can you kind of situate us a little bit? Because it's obvious you don't need to know what's happening in Seoul right now. You don't need to know necessarily about class disparity or what the cultural policies are of the country or the city. But contextualize that setting for us a little bit well bong bong has mentioned it in interviews that you know he was born in 1969 which actually when i was doing some prep yesterday i

was like that's the same year jay-z was born which is kind of weird jay jay-z turning 50 this year but um uh he grew up uh kind of in a rapidly you know in a rapid a rapid economic boom in Korea, in Seoul. And I think, well, he actually grew up in Daegu and went to university in Seoul. And he talked about being involved in all these pro-democracy protests when he was in college in the late 80s. And essentially, if you look at any, I don't know if you guys watch any Korean dramas or are huge fans of Korean cinema, but almost every plotline centers around pitting the rich versus the non-rich, the haves versus the have-nots. It's kind of a common theme. Bong has mentioned it about how kind of the wealth gap is something that's kind of forever on his mind and sort of

societally is a big issue. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that that's kind of a through line, definitely, in all of his movies. Is there as wide a wealth gap in Korea right now as there is in the United States? It seems like this is on the tip of everyone's tongue making movies at the moment. Well, having never lived in Korea, it's hard for me to say. But I would say that it's more pronounced, I would say, because Korea, post- you know, was like a third world country. And so within, you know, 30 years, it's got kind of like the fastest rising GDP maybe in world history. So that kind of rapid rise created a sudden sort of wealth gap. Whereas in the United States, of course, there's like generational wealth that factors in.

Yeah, I feel like, Amanda, this year between Joker and Us and a few other films, maybe even Downton Abbey, there's this sense that haves versus have-nots is probably the most pervasive theme in movies this year. There's some more movies coming out later this year. Queen and Slim may be one of them. There's quite a few other films that seem to be scratching at this itch. How do you think Parasite approaches this? What is your take on the way that they try to tackle this idea? And why is this idea so pervasive right now? Well, it's relevant. We're heading into 2020. I don't think this is the last time we're going to be talking about the wealth gap nationally. But I think that this is the greatest summation

of this theme so far this year. I don't want to spoil it too much, but I was, seeing it after having seen Joker, really puts in relief what it means to understand socio-political and socio-economic issues in any country, and to be able to express them via allegory in cinema, and to express how those issues would affect a character. One uses a machete and one uses a scalpel, I would say. Yes, and there's actually a more direct comparison to be made to those two, but I don't want to spoil it i think you know like

i said this has been a this has been a theme in all of director obong's movies a snowpiercer okja this larger idea of class but also just capitalism and aspiration and the inequality and the delusion and grief and despair that it affects across, really across classes and across types of people. This is interesting, again, without spoiling it, because it's sort of the most literal investigation of that idea. And it's both really obvious and also like really nuanced and deep, which is really difficult to do. And he just nails it. Yeah, there's a lot of work being done in the actual design of the movie, not just the way the movie shot or the actors that the director has cast, but in the production design and the way that it looks. A lot of the film takes place in one family's home,

in both of their homes, really. Those are primarily the two settings for the film. And both of those homes are completely designed on a studio set. They're not actual homes. And you can see that there is a meticulous nature to the way everything is organized. And Donnie, as you mentioned, that kind of architectural digest approach

to the wealthier family's home is everything is just so in this movie, you can see there's so much care put into it. There was a very good profile of director Bong in Vulture a couple of weeks ago. And in it, they talked about very explicitly about the way that he storyboards. Now, a lot of great filmmakers storyboard, and a lot of great filmmakers are able to visualize exactly what they want. But you can see that there is a level of care. And some of the, I believe it was Tilda Swinton talked about looking at his storyboards and it was almost like having a like a manga or like a comic book in your hand. And it was it was unto itself. It was an enjoyable experience. There's something so powerful about knowing, like we were saying before, that masterful nature of just like a person who knows exactly where everything belongs. I thought also the detail that stuck out to me in that Vulture profile is that he doesn't shoot coverage because he knows exactly what he needs and you don't need different options. He can kind of see it in his mind as he's watching it and just knows how the film will work. That's genius. It is. It's highly unusual for a filmmaker to not do that because it's dangerous and it's risky and movies cost a lot of money. And if you

don't have the shot, then you don't have the movie. Donnie, what about the notions of the gig economy in this movie? I think that there's something really fascinating that we can kind of talk about, about the roles that the less well-to-do family kind of takes on in this movie and how it reflects pretty much every other country right now. Yeah. I mean, it's not spoiling it to say that when the movie opens, you see the Kims that are literally making cardboard pizza boxes as a gig, as a family, as a family job. But, you know, it does speak to kind of the difficulties. And I mean, if you, you know, also in the movie, they talk about some of the failed businesses, chicken shop, a bakery. Not spoiling, right, Sean?

Not spoiling. Yeah, there's a cake shop. Those are funny examples, by the way. The other thing we haven't really talked about is how funny this movie is while also being really incisive and depressing. But when he's just listing all the random things and can't remember the order in which the various jobs came. It's played for laughs. It is. And there's a sense of timing in everything that is going on here that is equal to the production design. Like, the dialogue is perfectly written and the way that every character is set up is precise.

And there is, you know, there's a famous moment in the trailer where one of the characters who comes to be known as Jessica sort of sing songs her way through the script that she has written in her performance and you know that's a very specific and precise choice that is made to create a character that has like a very small detail that you didn't necessarily need she could have just said the lines but you there's no doubt in my mind that it was written that Jessica sing songs her way through her script before she goes and that that's really why it does merit second and third viewings to catch up on those details. But just to interject really quickly because, you know,

in preparing for this, I was looking over bones of the movies. I've seen them all. And another kind of sort of pervasive theme that's continued in Parasite is the notion of family

and the family union. A lot of his movies, the host included Okja, it's basically normal people generally just caught up in some shit that's out of their control. And then it becomes kind of like this operatic chaos that ensues. And that's kind of a running theme. And the family unit in Parasite is like you were saying, Sean, it's like, it's so believable as a lived in family and the way that they kind of react to things and the chaos unfolding is just, it sticks with you.

Yeah, and they also seem to have a kind of a friendship among them. One of the things that I like about this movie is that there is no evil and good. You could make the case that maybe capitalism is evil if you want to based on this point of view, but I don't even think it's trying to say that specifically. The characters themselves, some of them are very frivolous, some of them are very violent, some of them are dangerous, some of them are foolhardy,

some of them are trying their best but they're all kind of gray and they're all essentially operating inside of a system that they don't totally understand it feels like. Does that seem reasonable?

Yeah, they're all trapped. They all have a role to play. And they all play it and then, and are inevitably thrust against each other because that's both the structure of a movie and that's also the structure of capitalism. It truly is. Let's talk a little bit about this movie's Oscar chances.

This isn't going to be the last time we talk about the movie. There's a lot to talk about. It's unusual for a movie like this to become Oscar fair. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One, South Korea has never been nominated in any category in the Oscars ever. In the foreign film category, they've submitted 31 films since 1962.

The closest they ever came was last year's shortlisting of Lee Chan-dong's Burning, which Donnie just mentioned earlier. Donnie, mentioned earlier. Donnie, is there like an awareness, a care about the Oscars in South Korea, as far as you can tell? Is this a thing of interest? It's funny because Bong Joon-ho, in one of his interviews, kind of, I think it was actually that Vulture story, he said something, paraphrasing now that the Oscars is just a local ceremony, he kind of said, but I'm guessing with a smirk. But of course, you now that the Oscars is just a local ceremony. He kind of said, I'm guessing with a smirk.

But of course, you know, the Oscars is a prestigious award ceremony globally. I think part of the blame has to go to the country itself, the submitting country, because I mean, Sean, you know this better than than I do. But I believe the format is that or the process, the protocol is that the country itself sends the film for submission and uh an example of a glaring omission was South Korea not submitting The Handmaiden yes that year that year so uh sometimes I mean maybe it's like self-inflicted but I do think you know Parasite getting nominated for best foreign film let alone best picture would be huge a huge news story in Korea, because that would be ultimate validation, I think. It would be fascinating for a film that is becoming one of the biggest hits in the country's

history to also be the most prestigiously recognized in this country. And I'm actually quite curious to see how much money this movie can make. You know, we've seen foreign films make $8, $10 million. Like, is there a world in which a movie like this can make $20 million i don't know can i ask you can i ask you a question sean yeah i'm curious like you know we've long known that uh parasite was getting this limited release on october 11th only one theater in new york ifc was there time prior to the release given the word of mouth and the buzz for them to pivot the distributor to figure out a way to get it in more theaters? Because it seems like they could have filled plenty of more theaters this

weekend. You know, I don't know if they have any regrets necessarily, but generally speaking, this is a tried and true strategy. And I think it worked probably as well as it has ever worked this weekend because one, the three of us are on a podcast right now talking about this movie, even though no one has seen it. Two, it broke records. I mean, I think it is among the 20 highest per screen average weekends in the history of movie releases, which is really impressive. I think it's the biggest in October. And there is now momentum. And so a movie like this needs to draw audiences as word of mouth and momentum. And they've drawn it. If you walk by the IFC Center on a Friday night and you see a line that's 50 people deep and you're wondering what's going on and you look up at the marquee and it says Parasite, you think to yourself, I have to see Parasite.

You know, there is a powerful effect for organizing things that way. Now, it doesn't always work that way. We've seen a couple of limited releases this summer, movies like Late Night or Booksmart, that didn't necessarily know exactly how to roll out their smaller film. I don't know, Amanda, what's your take on this? I think it's pretty genius eventizing. You know, just anecdotally, I have had friends texting me being like, should I go to the theater to see this movie, which is not something that happens that often, even though we literally do a podcast about movies and theaters every week. My friends don't care. But there is this, they isolated the audience that they knew would be interested in this and created scarcity, essentially, and excitement.

So it's like the supreme hoodie of movies? Yes. Yes, exactly. Yes, 100%. Maybe I'm just annoyed of having to go to IFC. It was nice to see it at ArcLade. I think it's going to be rolling out into a lot more theaters. How many is kind of an object of fascination for someone like me? Can this movie go in 1,500 screens? I don't know. Maybe it are legitimately on the docket right now for Parasite. Best Director for Director of Online. Feels, especially after Pavel Pavlikovsky getting one for Cold War last year,

feels like there's going to be a huge push for this. And obviously the press has been extraordinary thus far. Best Original Screenplay. Best Cinematography. Production Design. Certainly Best Picture as a Conversation. I think maybe even best actor, probably not

because it's such a loaded category, but Sung Kang-ho, what can you tell us about him, Donnie? Oh man, I wish I had the quote handy that Bong kind of compared him

to like three different American actors, including Michael Shannon. Oh, that's a great comparison. Yeah, like I think, you know, on one hand, he's kind of like,

if you were going to use American analogies again, like a Tom Hanks type character because, or Tom Hanks type career in that he's extremely prolific and he's kind of known as sort a polygon article or interview with Bong Joon-ho that came out today where Bong was talking about how his performance Song Kang-ho's performance was so convincing as a gangster that people in the film industry thought he was like an actual gangster like that they had just cast some unknown guy to play that role but you know he broke out around the turn of the century again with that Korean New Wave. And he's been in just so many movies. And that's why the Tom Hanks comparison kind of sticks because he's universally good. And he's also kind of represents the Korean every person, Korean every man. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of a, you know when you watch one of his movies that at the very least he's going to deliver. Yeah, and he has, I think this is his fourth film now with Bong.

And in every film, he's played essentially a completely different kind of character. Like I rewatched Memories of Murder last night. And he's so buffoonish and so ridiculous. And then obviously things get a lot more cathartic as that film goes on. But it's interesting how he's able to kind of shift. I would say even more so than someone like Hanks. He's able to transform without losing his everyman essence, which is really an impressive thing. Yeah, he does the buffoonish thing well. And the other thing he does well, and you can see this also in Parasite, is the way he can kind of wear pathos on his face with

his facial expressions. It's really visceral. Let's talk quickly about Best Picture. Amanda, do you think this will happen? I think it's got a great chance. I was thinking this morning, I'm feeling increasingly cynical about how the Oscars are going to play out, but I don't want to go to that place mentally yet. I'd like to have an open heart for as long as we can and talk about our hopes and dreams instead of what the Academy Institution is going to do. I will say, even in recent years, even as things have not gone possibly as we, by that I mean Sean and myself and Donnie, who has a great taste in film. As Things Have Not Gone As We Wanted, ultimately, they always include a couple

like hipster pics, basically. There's something for the kids, and we're still the kids in this category, which is great. And I think, you know, it won the Palme d'Or. It is making money in the zone in which it's positioned. So I think it has a good chance of being nominated just because

they normally give you some candy to have you be quiet. Will it win? That seems like more of a stretch to me. Would Roma from last year be an analog, Sean? Sort of. I've been thinking about this a little bit. Obviously, this century, only two foreign films have been nominated for Best Picture, Roma and Amor, Michael Haneke's film from, I think, 2014. And it's very uncommon. Roma was from a recognized master who the Academy was also a huge fan of. We already knew that Guarone was somebody who, you know, he had made Gravity. He had made a huge American hit.

Bong is a little different. He's a little quirkier. He's a little bit more of a critic's choice. And as we mentioned earlier, South Korea just does not have the track record with the Academy. So there's a little bit of lack of clarity. Also, it'll be interesting to see what Neon, the distributor of this movie, does with the movie because Roma had Netflix and Netflix spent every last dollar and they busted their ass to put Roma in front of as many people as possible. And they ran a really great campaign. And I think, weirdly, the thing that I think held it back from winning

was also the thing that got it to its place, which is that it was Netflix. That may be different this year. Neon is a relatively new company. They've only been around for four or five years. They've released a lot of good films. They actually kind of got their launch in a big way from I, Tonya, which turned out to be a surprise hit with Margot Robbie.

And they ran a really successful Oscar campaign for that movie too. So it's sort of like Roma but only in so far as it's just a master filmmaker not working in English and I think the comparisons sort of stop there. It'll be very interesting to see what happens. I tend to agree with Amanda that it's got a pretty good shot.

I would say a 60% chance right now of being nominated for Best Picture. Probably a 0% chance of winning, which is just a shame. Maybe if we keep making podcasts like this, we can keep turning the dial in its direction because it's certainly worthy. And I find it interesting that

it's competing against Once Upon a Time in Hollywood because I don't think there is a filmmaker who's been a bigger advocate for Bong over the years than Tarantino. I think Tarantino, when he made a Best Film Since 1992 list, had both Memories of Murder and The Host on that top 20 list. He's a huge fan of this. I'm curious what he thinks of Parasite.

So it'll be there. But Donnie, I think also what you're hearing is maybe Amanda and I saw a couple of more traditionally Oscar-baity movies over the weekend. And perhaps our excitement about the hipster pick is starting to wane as we realize that we're entering the season in which these kinds of movies don't ultimately always get to the finish line. Well, we can say at the very least, it should be a slam dunk for best foreign film. It should be. Yes. I mean, that's the perverse logic of this podcast, Donnie, is that there are a lot of things that should happen and then we're faced with reality. Yeah. And we'll get more into that soon. Yeah. To be fair, I haven't seen very many foreign films this year, so I can't really say what the competition is. But it would seem if

Korea is going to ever win an Oscar, the best foreign film for Parasite should be the one. Donnie, before we let you go, is there one Bong Joon-ho movie that you would recommend people watch before watching Parasite from his whole oeuvre? I would recommend watching them all. I mean, I don't know if they're all available on Netflix. I think, you know, my favorite of his movies probably is still The Host. As you guys mentioned, it's a monster movie, but it encompasses a lot more. There's a lot of kind of satire in it. It's a good kind of accompaniment, I think, to Parasite in some ways. A bit more comedic, a bit broader, I guess, because it is a monster movie. But you see Bong playing with different issues and also the set pieces are really well done. It's a great recommendation.

Donnie Kwok, thank you for being here on The Big Picture, man. Thank you, Sean and Amanda. Bye, Donnie. Bye. Amanda, let's go to Stock Up, Stock Down now. If it goes bust, you can make 10 to 1, even 20 to 1 return. And it's already slowly going bust. Stock up, Amanda, I think has to be Joker.

Okay. And I say that because this movie is making a lot of money. And even though it does not favorably compare to Parasite from a critical perspective, I think what we saw this weekend was the controversy cool, but the interest not. And the movie is $7 million shy of $200 million after just 11 days. Yes. That's a lot of money. It is.

And if you look at it as a comic book movie, sure, it's doing fine. If you look at it as any other kind of movie in this country, it's doing really, really well. And there doesn't seem to be a lot of outrage about it anymore. What do you make of the ongoing juggernaut of Joker?

Here's the thing. It is a comic book movie. We did a whole podcast about how it's just a comic book movie. And that's okay. Y'all like comic book movies. You get to live your life. Here's what I want to throw a theory out at you.

What if Joker really is just Venom, both in terms of Oscars as well as box office? What do you mean by that? It's in October. It's a comic book movie about a villain that is making a lot of money. And people are like, oh, wow, I enjoy this. But it doesn't really make it into the critical conversation or the ask for conversation. People are just going to see it because it's a one word title that they recognize. That would be nice.

But this movie won the Golden Lion. So unfortunately, Europeans are wacky. Like, I don't care. I just don't think that that's going to be the case. I think honestly as the movie goes on and we've seen this before as the movie goes on

it continues to accrue more and more wealth and it becomes the hit of the fall which it is almost certainly going to be barring maybe Frozen 2 I think people's stances

are going to soften I think we already know that people really admire Joaquin Phoenix now I don't think Todd Phillips is necessarily getting nominated for Best Director. But, I mean, this movie is going to be Todd Phillips' biggest hit, which is really wild.

Now, on the other hand, it is a comic book movie, and that's really easy to pull off. But that's not necessarily the way this movie was marketed, and it's not necessarily the way it was talked about until we got to last Monday, when everybody was like, oh, yeah, okay, there's Bruce Wayne. There's all this other stuff going on. It's just a comic book movie. It's not entirely how it was marketed, but it might be how it was received. I think there are a lot of people who are just like,

oh, I got to go see a movie called Joker because there's Joker in it. I'm just curious how many people you've talked to who aren't diehard comic book fans who are really excited about this movie and are like, wow, they really did something. Joaquin is a separate conversation, and I think, wow, what a cinematic achievement, unless they feel really connected to this character and to this type of film and feel really defensive about the fact that these type of movies should be taken seriously. So you raise an interesting point because theoretically, that would be the thing that

holds it back from a great deal of recognition from the Academy or otherwise. And obviously, critically, it has been all over the map. There are some, I think the best reviews have been the most nuanced ones. The ones that have dismissed it out of hand, I have had a hard time reading. The ones that have been like, boy, there's a lot of really simple, unfortunate homage here. There's a lot of ill-drawn conclusions about mental health, class, all the things we talked about on the show already. But there is some craft in the movie that is really admirable that I responded to. And I don't think you just have to be a comic book movie fan. If you look at, I think it was

Scott Feinberg in The Hollywood Reporter published essentially a series of testimonials from people in the academy who had seen the movie. And I think it was 20 plus testimonials. And many of them essentially were not reflecting on the comic book nature of the movie. They were reflecting on the craft of the movie. They were talking about the cinematography. They were talking about the score. They were talking about the way that it was staged. And Joaquin, Joaquin is the center of the movie. Yeah, of course. And you and I are fond of making fun of the Academy on this show. And the Academy is like a little bit silly. You know, they're like a little bit dim at times. It's not this uniform body. It's individual people.

And they're very prone to going over the top for something like what Joaquin did in this movie, which is lose 52 pounds, make his hair all greasy, dance beautifully. And so I think that as we get further and further away from the fear that this movie might incite violence and closer and closer to this being one of the most successful quote-unquote prestige movies of the year, the odds keep growing in its favor. I think that's probably true. I just kind of think like the idea that this is a prestige

movie is actually a joke. So that is the ultimate joker. And it is... I'm curious of how many Academy members will be won over by the fancy coat of paint on it versus how many Academy members are still resistant to the idea of comic book movies. Because that still is a real faction.

I think that there is an exception made for the Joker, and it's largely because of Heath Ledger, but it is still made for the Joker. It'll be interesting to watch. I noted something interesting in the box office reporting about this movie, which is that ticket sales for all movies rang up $141 million per com score, a 3% increase from a year ago.

Year-to-date, the U.S.-Canadian box office is still lagging behind 2018, down 5% with $8.8 billion. The margin is closing a little bit on it being a disastrous year. You know, this summer, you and I, we had pus pouring from our ears because of all the pain of enduring the bad summer movies. And that's, it was closer to 10%, almost 15% at times this year. Things are evening out a little bit and

there's still a star wars movie and a frozen movie to come i wonder if ultimately everything will just be peachy keen by the end of this year on from a box office perspective i think it'll probably get better because as you said you have two more recognizable franchises to come and as we as we've talked about people go to the movies when they know what the name in the title is about. Do you think that they're accounting for the 7,000 tickets you've already bought to Knives Out? That's true. I feel like there's going to be a big bump. I'm going to write it on a whole theater just for myself.

I won't be inviting anybody else because I just want to go solo, but I'd like it to have the ticket sales. You should put yourself live on Instagram for two consecutive hours while watching Knives Out. No, no shots of Knives Out, just your face while watching Knives Out. Looking forward to that. I don't think I'm that expressive. I'll just be kind of like, oh, cool. That's a hard disagree for me.

Wow. Stockdown. I don't think this is very Oscar-y, but I got to talk about the two really, really, really, really bad trailers that we saw last week. I know you're in the, I don't watch trailers phase of your life, but I hope you watch these because they're not interesting movies.

I watched like 15 seconds of it. I was like, why am I giving this my time? Why am I giving this my time? I had that question about these trailers. I had that question about like Disney Plus just announcing every single movie in its library on Twitter. And suddenly everyone on Twitter is just part of the Disney marketing machine? Are you guys getting a paycheck?

What am I doing? Why am I spending my time on this? I'm just going to say the names of the movies before we get further down the Disney plus rabbit hole. There are, of course, Doolittle and Jungle Cruise. Jungle Cruise based on the ride Jungle Cruise at Disneyland. It is a great ride. I'm a huge fan of the ride. That film stars Dwayne Johnson and Emily Blunt,

and Doolittle, which dropped its trailer yesterday, stars Robert Downey Jr. Now, I don't know how long ago it was, maybe three or four months, but I did note that what was then known as The Voyage of Dr. Doolittle and has now been shortened to Doolittle is secretly one of the all-time production fiascos in Hollywood.

Someone who worked on the film started a Reddit thread about observing the making of this movie and particularly some of the failings, and this is so good. Started a Reddit thread about observing the making of this movie and particularly some of the failings and this is all alleged but some of the failings

of the director Steven Gagin who was reportedly replaced on the movie and a new script was written. This movie was shot years ago

at this point and it's been in post-production for a very long time and this person who I guess is an editor whose name I'm not going to use

was very unkind to all of the people making the movie particularly those at the top and you can really tell when you watch the trailer this looks quite poor has anyone cared less in recent memory than Robert Downey Jr.? I really enjoyed his interview on Stern

where Howard Stern brings up the Martin Scorsese comments. By the way, my man Marty, back at it again, doubling down. He doubled down. He's not wrong. But Howard Stern brings up the comments about amusement parks. And Howard Stern is just yelling, he says it's not cinema. Like 15 times, which is great radio.

And our dad is like, oh, did he say that? Well, he has an opinion too. I just like couldn't. It's like Teflon just bounces right off him. My man is rich as hell and doesn't care. I admire that. One, Howard Stern, come on the big picture. That's all I have to say.

If we do another Marvel movie series next year to celebrate, I don't know, fucking the Eternals or something. I need Howard Stern to come be my wingman. But yeah, RDJ is in not give a fuck mode. And this movie kind of seems like it doesn't give a fuck. It's coming out January 17th, 2020, which on the one hand, it will be promoted aggressively during football season and during Oscar season and all this other stuff. But also, this is a dumping ground for a movie like this,

which should theoretically be released in the middle of June as soon as kids get out of school. Boy, it looks rough. Jungle Cruise, it just felt like Pirates of the Caribbean 7. I was like, why is there a giant ship firing cannons in the middle of a Jungle Cruise movie? It seemed way out of whack with what the scale is of the Jungle Cruise ride. You're just like, this is not accurate to the Jungle Cruise representation.

This isn't canon Jungle Cruise. I mean, how wrong? Stick to the script, Disney. We've all been on a Jungle Cruise. That's not a Jungle Cruise. I just, I was really bummed out when I saw this. I think it's easy to be cynical about a lot of the things that Disney does. And we'll probably talk a little bit more about that when we review Maleficent, Mistress of Evil later this

week on the show, which is, I can't believe the name of a movie. Also, I did want to note before I lose my train of thought here, Maleficent, when you think about it, really was the original Joker. You know, like she really was there first with the origin of the villain story. Yeah, I guess that's true. You're talking about just the original Maleficent movie, or are you talking about Maleficent in canon in Sleeping Beauty? Yeah, maybe in the history of- Because for once, I actually know the canon of a particular franchise. Disney is always doing something

that kind of makes you cringe while doing something that captures the imagination of a lot of people. We've talked about that quite a bit this year with Aladdin and The Lion King and Avengers Endgame and they've had so much success. Sometimes they're able to thread the needle. Toy Story 4, fucking delightful movie that seems so craven on paper.

Jungle Cruise was one where I was like man, we just don't need this. This is not how I want Dwayne Johnson and Emily Blunt spending their time. I, you know, the guy who made a bunch of the Liam Neeson thrillers is the director of it. Just really, it's just not what you want.

I agree. Stock way down for Jungle Cruise and Doolittle. Okay. But stock way up for Disney. It doesn't matter. Stock will always be up for Disney. They can't lose. Very quick note, stock way up for Disney. It doesn't matter. Stock will always be up for Disney. They can't lose. Very quick note, stock right up to heaven to the god Robert Forster,

who passed away over the weekend. Earlier this year on the Quentin Tarantino Top 5s episode, I talked a bit about Jackie Brown. Most of you probably know him from Jackie Brown. His role is Max Cherry, which was a kind of revival of sorts. Tarantino pulled him out of actor obscurity. He got his start in the 60s. He's the star of Haskell Wexler's very famous 1968 film, Medium Cool.

If you haven't seen that, I would encourage you to check it out. Heartbreaking that he passed away, or maybe fitting that he passed away the same weekend that El Camino, the Breaking Bad movie, premiered, because he plays a crucial role in that movie, as he did in the Breaking Bad series. Just one of my favorite actors. I don't, you know, just calm, chill,

the kind of confident movie presence that makes me feel good. Just want to give a shout out to Robert Forster. I agree. Shall we go to the big race? Let's do it. Well, mama, look at me now. I'm a star.

So we talked a little bit about best international feature film in our conversation about Parasite. star. So we talked a little bit about best international feature film in our conversation about Parasite. Let's spin it up a little bit. This is a very hard category to prognosticate about. And you and I haven't even seen most of these movies. I think I've only seen two or three. But let's just set the stage a little bit

because things have changed a bit in this category over time. So 92 countries have already submitted films for consideration, and every country can only submit one movie. So the procedures were slightly modified in 2006. The Academy decided to institute a two-stage process. First, a nine-film shortlist is published one week before the official nominations announcement. In the meantime, a small 30-member committee, which includes 10 New York City-based Academy members, is formed and spends three days reviewing the shortlisted films before choosing the five official nominations. Those nominations will be announced

on January 13th of 2020. We're all eagerly awaiting that. I'm going to list a couple of what I think are locks. Some of this is based on what we've seen. Some of this is based on the fame of the figures involved.

Yes. So Parasite. Mm-hmm. If it's not nominated, we riot. I think we actually do. This would be a disaster. Yes. The class war comes to the streets where you and I infiltrate the Academy building and we Hector everyone inside the building.

It would just be an indication that the Academy is just completely divorced from what is new and interesting in filmmaking. And not even that new, honestly, because South Korea has been submitting films for decades, but just that they are not interested in the future. Yeah, and South Korea has already submitted Parasite as its choice. This is the most talked about foreign film of the year. I don't see that changing anytime soon. The only movie that I think has a high level of consciousness

outside of the Academy that could challenge it is Pedro Almodovar's Pain and Glory, which you and I talked about a couple of weeks ago. It's also a wonderful film. It's the kind of film the Academy likes a lot. It's also a master artist, one whose work they're very familiar with, telling a autofictional tale about his life. Right.

Starring a movie star. Yes. And it is that very later in life grappling with success and the waning years and creativity creativity and an artist's role in it which is the theme this year as well it's a it's a film about filmmaking too and film history and what we put on screen and creative expression and the stakes of all of those things so you know i think it would be unfortunate if parasite was felled by pedro who already has a i think a couple of foreign film oscars maybe just one Les Miserables am I saying that correctly?

you're the French master on this show yeah that was good okay how would you say it? I'm not actually French so Les Miserables like you know

you don't have to do the bleh but okay Les Miserables which is not the Les Mis that we are familiar with it's a different Les Mis which you know I mentioned a couple of weeks ago as well.

It was submitted by France over Portrait of a Lady on Fire, which I think will seem somewhat controversial when we get down to the race of things. This is one of the better received films at Cannes. It was kind of in competition with Parasite and Portrait of a Lady on Fire. Atlantics from Senegal is a Netflix acquisition. And I haven't yet to see this film, but it's among the best reviewed movies of the year. of a Lady on Fire. Atlantics from Senegal is a Netflix acquisition. And I haven't yet to see this film, but it's among

the best reviewed movies of the year. I would say that those four at the moment are top of the heap. Now, something interesting that has happened in this category.

One, you know, I don't think I had ever really put it together, but England and Canada are eligible for this award. Oh, interesting. And it's not foreign language. It's international. Additionally, another thing that they've changed is that now documentaries and animated films are also eligible. So there's a Japanese film called Weathering With You, which many people seem to think has a strong chance to compete

in animated feature this year. It's by the same filmmaker who made a movie called Your Name a few years ago. And this category has kind of, the rules have changed. And so I think we might see something convulsive happening here. And I've got Honeyland written down here, which is from North Macedonia. I would be shocked if North Macedonia ever had an Oscar nominee in the past.

This is a documentary about a Macedonian woman who is a beekeeper. And the struggles that she encounters also being distributed by Neon, the same company that is distributing Parasite and Portrait of a Lady on Fire. I don't think a movie like this was eligible 10 years ago, but it is now. It'll be interesting to see what kind of, I don't know, what kind of energy goes behind it. Now, beyond that, there's movies like Beanpole from Russia and Manos from Colombia. I've seen both those films, good films. They feel like kind of standard historical fare. We'll say randomly this morning, woke up to an email from my father about Manos. So it seems like it's in the consciousness of it. It is. Manos also a neon film. As you can see,

they have a strategy this year. It's a film about child soldiers in South America, and they take an American captive and essentially travel across the country with her in tow and show us up close kind of the, I don't know, the pain and agony that they inflict upon people and also the pain and agony inflicted upon them as they're sort of institutionalized as child soldiers. It's a pretty rough movie. It feels very un-Academy Awards. It's shot very close up, very intimate, but also very violent. What'd your dad think? I think he really enjoyed

it. I think also like everything you just said is un-Academy, except like they do like to pick a punishing film from time to time as a sort of virtue signaling. Like, it's important that you watch this. And I think historically have used this category. There are a lot of grim winners of best foreign turned international film in history. Yeah. There are historically a lot of films about the Holocaust in this category as well. Both in this category and best documentary feature, you tend to see a lot of films about war-torn nations struggling with unresolvable conflict. And in a way, that's what Parasite is,

but it's not literal. There is something subtextual about what happens between people in their own country that I think is really powerful. And if you spend more than five minutes thinking about what the movie means, I think you'll get so much out of it. But it's not like seeing something like Monos. Right. So we'll have to see. Let me ask you a question and put you on the spot. Okay.

Maybe it'll be helpful if you pull up the Wikipedia page for this category. Sure. What's your all-time favorite foreign film winner? Oh, I have a good answer for this. And one I actually rewatched recently, which was just on a whim. The Lives of Others is pretty extraordinary. Oh, yeah. That's a very good film. Yeah. And it was on Netflix and I was home on a Saturday night and I was like, you know what I need to do is rewatch The Lives of Others, which is one of the weirdest choices I've made. But it holds up. Speaking of films about World War II and Nazis and all of

these other things. So that movie is interesting, right? It's a great film. It's made by a man named Florian Henkel von Donnerschmark. He was nominated last year for a movie called Never Look Away, which is not very good. It's about three hours. And what happens in this category sometimes is it gets its favorites. So there's always like a cool pick, but then there are the favorites. favorites last year i think the cool pick in many ways was um shoplifters you know that shoplifters great film one of the best films of 2019 very critically beloved premiere to can very similar life cycle to a movie like parasite not as big a hit necessarily but similar in in many ways and of course the palm door didn't it it did yeah and and obviously roman triumphed the year before that reuben ostlund's the square also a palm door winner i believe that sounds

correct yeah also runner-up in this category a fantastic woman by sebastian lelio which is also a good movie but not quite as hipstery the year before before that, Tony Erdman by Miranda Day lost to The Salesman by Asghar Farhadi. The year before that, Mustang lost to Laszlo Nemes' Son of Saul. There's a long history. The year before that, Wild Tales by Damien Sisyphron,

which is a great movie from Argentina, lost to Ida by Pavel Pavlikowski. Typically, the more staid film tends to triumph in this category. Not conservative, but not recklessly told. And I think that this voting body, this group of people who choose these films, and then ultimately the Academy writ large,

is not very adventurous here. Now, Roma is a huge achievement. I'm not criticizing Roma by any means or Son of Saul or The Salesman. These are all great films by great filmmakers. But as we look at kind of Parasite versus something like Pain and Glory, it's unusual to call a Pedro Almodovar film stayed

because it's not actually stayed. But in the context of this race, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, no, I do know what you're saying, that it's unimaginative. I do wonder whether it's shifting slightly just because Roma was stayed, but as you explained, it was backed by Netflix and it was such a sensation last year. And it's really rare to have such a bold name film in this category that most Americans have access to and that at least people who follow

the Oscars have really heard of. I mean, this is a traditional, you're filling out your Oscar ballot 30 minutes before and you're just like, oh shit, okay, I'm going to circle something. Because even people who follow movies haven't even been able to see as many of these foreign films until fairly recently. I think streaming services have been really helpful in that. So I do wonder whether Parasite being kind of a bold name in an era where we're used to bolder names in this category and people are maybe starting to rethink it could help. I do also wonder whether in a lot of ways Roma won last year because it didn't win. It felt a little bit like a consolation prize.

And so I do wonder, and this is again giving the Academy credit, which is always a dangerous game, but it's still October, so I'm trying to stay positive. If Parasite isn't going to compete in Best Picture or isn't going to win Best Picture, whether some of the trickle-down effects of do you get a consolation win either in international film,

maybe director, maybe screenplay, honestly. I think there's a strong chance. The odds are pretty good for screenplay right now. I just, I do think that the dynamic in this category is shifting a bit as more people are able to see them and as we talk about them more, which is a good thing.

It's rare that actually positive things happen on this podcast. It's true. Let me ask you one sort of administrative question about the Oscars. Oh, great. How do we verify that the people voting for these awards have seen these movies? Shouldn't there be some sort of system in which we can confirm that they're qualified to say what is the best? You want to do like a quiz? I don't know.

There should be some sort of like chip implanted in every Academy member that indicates that they have spent more than 12 minutes on every screener when they get these movies. Like, are these people watching these movies? Answer that question for me sincerely. No, of course. They're not watching all those movies, you know, and they're only you hear all the stories about there's an academy screening that's around the building because they're kind of cheapskates who will only go see them if they can get a free screening and made to feel comfortable. I mean, just go to the damn Arclight. Most of you live in Los Angeles. No no i don't think they're watching all of them i do think there's so many people that it's hard to keep track of i don't think i endorse like big

brothering the the academy awards i don't want to have a chip implanted but you know every academy member must take soma every day and report back to me all of the films that they have seen i am i am the big brother. I think I'm mixing Alges Huxley with George Orwell here. Yeah, I was trying to follow that. No, but maybe if you're going to give the free screening, like maybe you make that mandatory. Maybe it is like people have to go to five screenings or something. Would that be a way to fix it? Yeah. And their ticket must be punched and they must have their retina scanned at every screening. That's where I want to go. I think you're just like having screening fatigue right now.

That's a fair point. If we have to do it, y'all have to do it. I will say one thing that's making me happy is I'm looking at the leading contenders for best original screenplay. As usual, this category is good. Yeah. I mean, this is the hipster category. It's like we can't actually have nice things in Best Picture, so they always give us this one. Sophia won this one. My queen. You know. I'm looking at the odds,

and these are the potential nominees in this category. Pedro Almodovar, Pain and Glory. Noah Baumbach, Marriage Story. Rian Johnson, Knives Out. Bong Joon-ho, Parasite. Quentin Tarantino, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. And Lulu Wang, The Farewell. Yeah. I mean, you just love to Lulu Wang, The Farewell. Yeah.

I mean, you just love to see it. You really do. Fantastic. Whether or not you love to see a bunch of the movies coming out this weekend is a question we're going to try to answer on Friday's episode. Amanda, here are the movies that are on the docket to be discussed. Oh, boy. I mentioned Maleficent, Mistress of Evil. The Laundromat.

Yes! Which hits Netflix on Friday. Jojo Rabbit, Taika Waititi's... Oh my God, is that Friday? That is opening on Friday. And I'll have a discussion and maybe a little chatter about Zombieland Double Tap with the director Ruben Fleischer. That's a bumper crop of films that's not even mentioning The Lighthouse. Yes.

Which is the movie that I have been waiting to talk about for months now. I'll have an interview with the filmmaker after The Lighthouse opens. And then on that following Tuesday, we have our 200th episode of The Big Picture. On the 200th episode, we're going to do a no-holds-barred

Q&A. Right. Mailbag. What would the inverse of no-holds-barred be? Barred? Barred Q&A. Right, because we... Mailbag. We... What would the inverse of No Holds Barred be? We... Barred? Barred Holds? Yes, yes. Like often on this podcast?

Yeah, No Holds Barred is born of wrestling lingo. I was just trying to invert it. Anyway. If you want to put the Cobra Clutch on us, feel free to choke us out with your Twitter questions. Okay, this is taking a turn. I stopped fighting with my family and now you just do this all the time? I don't know. Love to talk about wrestling on The Big Picture. Amanda, this is taking a turn. I saw fighting with my family and now you just do this

all the time. I don't know. Love to talk about wrestling on The Big Picture. Amanda, thank you so much. We'll see you guys later this week. Thank you, Sean. you