The Big Picture - Passing Time With Richard Linklater | The Big Picture (Ep. 33)

Episode Date: November 10, 2017

Richard Linklater to discuss the impact of war in his new film, ‘Last Flag Flying,’ as well as his tendency to creatively revisit his previous films over time, like with ‘Dazed and Confused,' ��Before Midnight,’ and ‘Boyhood’ (1:00). Linklater also discusses the state of sexual harassment news in Hollywood (28:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And I haven't had a bad creative experience. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, the studio messed with me. I always got out alive with my film. Now I maybe lost the big war, like they didn't distribute it or they hated me or never wanted to work with me again or, you know, whatever. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture. Richard Linklater makes movies about people talking. Movies like Dazed and Confused, Before Sunrise, Boyhood.

These people are talking to each other and to themselves, getting out of trouble and right back into it. And it's happening across very specific periods of time. The last day of school, a romantic night in Paris, a teenage boy's lifetime. His new movie is called Last Flag Flying and features one of his go-to setups, old friends reuniting and new ones growing close.

And these characters talk a lot. But it's a little different too and a little bit more straightforward than usual. It's about a father, played by Steve Carell, who's reunited with his two buddies, played by Bryan Cranston and Lawrence Fishburne, and they came to know each other during the Vietnam War. After Carell's character's son is killed in the Iraq War in 2003,

the trio reunite to transport the body back to his home in New Hampshire. What happens along the way in the movie is right at the heart of this story. Linklater and I talked about the passage of time in a career that is now 20 films deep, how to make all that talking he puts on screen interesting, and the perilous state of sexual harassment scandals in Hollywood and the world over. So without further ado, here's Richard Linklater. Today's a great day because I'm joined by Richard Linklater. Sir, thank you for coming in today. Oh, good to be here. So you have a new film. It's called Last Flag Flying.

Yeah. How are you feeling about it? Oh, I feel great about it. You know, it was so fun to make, you know, I was working with Lawrence Fishburne, Steve Carell, Brian Cranston, and other great cast members. It was just fun. It has something in common with all your other films, which is that it's very much about the idea of time. I know you get this question a lot. But what drew you to specifically this time and this story? Because it's not a 2017 story.

No, no. It takes place in 2003, the first year of the Iraq War, and it concerns these three Vietnam vets. So to me it was a way – it was based on a book by Daryl Ponikson and he wrote it a few years earlier. I first read it in like 2005, kind of got obsessed with it. And I think it was just these characters. But it was these middle-aged guys kind of looking back at their Vietnam days and it's also a contemplation of this new war that our country has gotten itself into.

Seen through Steve Carell's son has gone over as a Marine and he's died and they're going to get his, you know, going to Dover Air Force Base and escorting the body and all that, all the behind the scenes stuff you never see or think much about. Had you been wanting to do something about the Iraq War, Afghanistan, all these

ideas, you know, and what drew you also to Daryl's book in 2005? It just sort of floated my way. I mean, they sent it to me. One of the exec producers thought I was just curious if I thought it was a movie. I think other people were kind of saying, oh, it's not really a movie. But I read it and go, oh, three guys on a road trip talking

that are pretty hilarious and poignant. I said, that's my kind of movie. You know, I make guys I can make that. And it just, it spoke to me. I think at that time the Iraq War was kind of so fraught. You know, we had – it had been such a mistake. It was – I protested that war before it even started.

I think it was painful because I'm old enough to remember – I think the first 14 years of my life was the Vietnam War. You know, every now and then, it's 13 – 39 soldiers died today and it was just neighborhood older brothers and fathers were in the war. I grew up with guys who lost – I know a guy who had lost both his father and his older brother in the war and it was just the backdrop of life. And then to get to know more about that war politically and historically and to see what a mistake it was and that whole lesson and to see our country kind of forget that lesson, let enough time go by and then kind of get themselves into this Iraq war was so painful. And you feel sort of helpless. But I've got a wonderful medium, expressive medium at my fingertips.

And like I said, I didn't really have a war movie in me, but this kind of answered a lot of, you know, it's both the anger and the ambiguity of it all. You know, we're all kind of put in this weird position as citizens, you know, like you do respect the troops, the individuals, because, you know, they're not the ones calling the shots. But I'll be damned as a citizen if I can't criticize the people deciding to go to war and have wars of choice. Yeah, you get this interesting thing. That's patriotic in my opinion. Yeah. In the movie, the characters, especially the three older characters, are very critical of this thing that they also feel very connected to, which is not something you see very often, right?

People who have aged out of that. Well, I don't think you see it in fiction, but you see it in life. Some of the most vocal critics and the people I think have earned that right are service members, people who served, who get out. I think they have a special place in that. I think they have an authority. But I think as citizens, we all have it. But you get a little closer and you realize, oh, it's not a contradiction to criticize. So you mentioned that you obviously grew up with the Vietnam War.

Were you really influenced by the movies that were made that were reflecting on that war? Oh, I think so. Cinema and war movies kind of, they just go so well together. War and cinema. I think in the last few years, just as I contemplated this movie for the last 10, 12 years, I really started studying war movies and thinking with the bigger question, not like, are they great cinema because they are. They always have good, clean story. It's good narratives and a lot of action and you can be mythic. You can be kind of down and dirty.

There's a lot of – you can be funny. You can be tragic. Those movies in particular are very critical as well. They really – Yeah, a long tradition of critiques of war. But the bigger question in my mind was even when you are critiquing a war or saying in the movie, you know, men make wars, but wars make men. You know, that little notion is kind of latent. It's sitting there in a lot of particularly male psyches. And so I was more interested in an anti-war movie that would, I mean, there's very few. I mean, I questioned the notion, if there is an anti-war movie, you can have an anti-war

message, but do you not support just by – cinema is powerful. You depict something, you're kind of saying you're legitimizing it. And most war movies are made by – not by former soldiers. They're made by movie directors who largely didn't fight in wars. A lot of the World War II guys did fight, some of those guys. I trust Sam Fuller and people like that. But I mean here recently – I mean Oliver Stone certainly fought in Vietnam. And I think his movie Born on the Fourth of July is a true anti-war movie.

To me, that's very realistic. And I give him high props for that in the notion of anti-war. Like, oh, wow, maybe that's not a good idea to sign up for that. And I don't want to contribute to that. I think I made an anti-war movie that still very much honors the commitment for a person who would put their life on the line for the country. But I think it begs critical thinking. What are you putting your life on the line for, your country or for commanders all the way up to the commander-in-chief's games?

One of the things the movie does really well is it shows that the people who join the service ultimately become – it feels like they start doing things for each other and less so because of this imagined cause or the reason that they join starts to fade away a little bit and it becomes much more this fraternal experience. And you then have to build a fraternal experience with your cast and the people so that we believe that they have this connection, right? Yeah, you find that in every war. They might sign up with notions of fighting for freedom or their country or who knows. There's a million reasons to sign up with notions of fighting for freedom or their country or who knows. There's a million reasons to sign up. But I think a lot of them have this notion of patriotism.

As soon as you get there, you realize in the big chain of command, you're at the bottom of that. And it really becomes about survival. Like anything, there's these big war ideals. But the mission day to day is little things, you know, just we're going to do this, that. It's just like a job. You're going from here to there. It's very specific in its time and place. And on that day, you are just trying to survive. You got their back. They got yours. It was fun to get these actors together weeks in advance. How long do you rehe yours. It was fun to get these actors together weeks in advance. How long do you rehearse? It was a couple of weeks. I usually like a little more,

but I think Cranston was on a book tour or something. So we rehearsed early and then there was a gap in time and then we got to rehearse some more and then we started shooting. But it really, these guys really did form those bonds that you felt they knew each other from 30 years ago. How did you choose those three guys? You know, it was pretty narrow. If you think of the age range they had to be and, you know, you break it down, there's actually not a lot. But within that lot, there's a lot of great actors. So it was, you know, you kind of have to feel your way through a little ensemble.

So you just try to get the best person. And I was very fortunate. These three guys at the top of my list were – we had about a 33-day schedule. So, yeah, it was great. One of the things that's interesting about it to me is that you have a lot of experience playing with structure, playing with the approach to your movies. This movie is fairly stripped down. It's fairly straightforward in the approach. You know, how did you decide to do something like that after toying with the shape of things for so long?

Exactly. Well, every, you know, the more I do this, the more I think it's just storytelling. What story are you telling and what's the most efficient way to tell it? You know, a lot of times I have time structures or become probably in lieu of a lot of plot. I have time as a kind of a narrative device in its own way, mirroring maybe the way days unfold or your mind processes time or something. But this was a much more linear story. It was a road movie. There were other things propelling it forward and a nice little dramatic arc and a

resolution of sorts. So I just kind of latch onto that as a storytelling device and go with that. So it takes place over not that long, you know, several days. A lot of my movies are under 24 hours sometimes. Is it somehow in any way more challenging to do something that is like straight ahead like this? You know, every movie is its own challenge. You know, every movie, there's something about it making it very difficult. What was the toughest part about this one? This one, I say that, but it really wasn't. This was one of the more frictionless films I've made.

I don't know why. It just all, you know, we wrapped three days early, which never happens on movies. I just, we'd get to an end of the day. I was like, well, guys, I think we got it. I was saying I'm kind of in my Sidney Lumet phase. I'm just like, no, we just shoot this, that. No, that's what it's going to be. We're very efficient all around, and I think the guys were so well prepared.

Yeah, does that come from it being a cast of 50-something actors? Yeah, super professionals at the top of their game. What is more fun for you to be with a relatively inexperienced group and kind of teaching them in real time or to be with old pros? You know, it's different. The film I did right before was a youthful, you know, guys in their early 20s mostly. It was a college comedy,

and it was so fun to be with guys kind of my own age. They get all my references. You can joke around. You can, you know, I always said like Saturday morning cartoon references. We could riff on each other's, talk about a lot of things to the guys who are, you know, so much younger than me. They don't understand what I'm talking about. Or it becomes a lecture, right? Well, this was a reference to the Secretary of State back then, you know, or the president or, you know, you're having to kind of lecture them on history where these guys, no lecture needed. We all live through it. I think in the minds of a lot of people's imaginations, you're still the guy in the back of the car and slacker, you know, that that's how they see you. But, you know, I assume to the cast, if everybody wants them, you are a sage, Oscar-nominated, you know, legacy filmmaker.

That's been the harder thing to get psychologically. Like for the longest time, I was the striving, up-and-comer kid, you know. You feel that way. But pretty soon you start meeting people. Oh, I saw your films when I was in high school. And they're like, really? How do you receive that? way, but pretty soon you start meeting people. Oh, I saw your films when I was in high school. And they were like, really? Or, you know, like, oh, you know, and then some executive at a studio is like, oh yeah, in college you were my, you know, like, okay, I'm the old guy in the, I might be one of those guys. Yeah. Well, it's just, it's mathematics, you know,

basically it's going to happen. It helps. I live sort of in a – outside the system to such a degree that I don't – none of that never gets reinforced unless I'm in production or depending on who I'm around in the industry, which is pretty minimal. So it does hit you every now and then you look up and go, oh, OK. I'm the senior person on this panel or in this room or – it's OK. It's OK. There's an upside to that too where when you're young, you really have to prove yourself over and over. It seems like every movie, it's not uncommon for an executive or someone just to assume you have no idea what you're doing. You're even saying, hey, this is my fourth film or my fifth film. I'm kind of good at this. I know what I'm – they still treat you like you don't. Whereas now you have a lot less friction I guess.

I think this is 20 for you, right? Yeah, 20. Yeah, I'm editing my 21st film right now. So is it easier for you to get movies made now? Well, I think that's a product of the system right now. Seven years ago I would have said no. But so would have every filmmaker in the world at that time because it was a real – we were sort of in between the cracks, I think, the film industry. Something had ended and something new hadn't started yet.

So it was just a desert of financing and they didn't – it was kind of lean times. I still made movies. I haven't been inactive, but it's just so difficult. I mean there was just – like I said, this movie was frictionless because I had just enough of a budget and schedule where I did films not that many years ago where the ambition of the film – I did several in a row where I was just like exhausted and so challenged because the scope and ambition of the film so far exceeds your actual budget and schedule that every day is just a hustle. It's just really more difficult than it had to be. But I'm now happy. There's just a little more money around, a little more entities making films. My last few films have been at Anna Perna, Megan Ellison's company,

and this one was at Amazon Studios. And so there are all these new, you know, then obviously there's the Netflixes and the, you know, of the world. So it's a much better time right now. Is it easier for you personally to make films? On the set, like in my day-to-day? Well, even conceiving them.

I feel like conception is a big part of your process too, for lack of a better word. The idea is always a thing. Sure is. There's a sentence in your films that you're like, oh, he's doing it this way. So many films I make are – the conception usually comes years and years ago. But I'll have a big idea, but it takes me years to kind of craft that idea and think about it. Often there's a 10-year gap there. So the good news is I have a bunch of ideas and things, a big stack of scripts and things I'm working on. So I think I'm overwhelmed way into the future with film projects and stories I want to tell and things.

But a lot of these – I'd say three of the last four movies I've done have been long gestating. Something like this, it's 10-year gestation. Everybody wants them. The one right before, same thing, about a 10-year gap between wanting to get it made and actually getting it made. Boyhood, obviously, we shot it over a short time from conception to shooting but then a long conceptual shoot. The before series obviously has its own big conception behind the whole thing that's 20-whatever years old at this point.

So yeah, movies are – I think it really lives and dies at that very first idea. I think you have a lot of ideas and the ones that sort of flitter away are probably the ones you shouldn't make. They don't have the depth or they're not that interesting or funny. Maybe there's a lot of clever ideas and there's obviously a million stories. We all encounter just a ton of stories every day of our lives that could be a movie. But it's like, well, what should be a movie? Two different things. And so what should be a movie that I want know, but it's like, well, what should be a movie? Two different things.

And so what should be a movie that I want to spend that kind of time and effort and resources and live with it the rest of your life, you know? So it's nothing you take lightly. The idea has run through the gauntlet of my mind for years before I'm actually doing it. I wonder, you know, you've been creative about how to execute ambitious ideas before. So scanner darkly or boyhood, these in a different, with a different filmmaker in a different environment, those could be expensive or elaborate productions and you've managed to do them in your, in your specific grounded way. Is, is there something that is a bigger and above that, that you've always wanted to do, but have not either been able to do or had

the time or not so yeah do i have any like grand epic films in my head that i haven't i do but they're kind of big stories and there's something i've been working on for about 20 years but i'm realizing now and it's good timing that that film I had in my head that just keeps sprawling and growing and I'm doing research. It's a big historical thing. But when you realize it's over 10 hours long, you have to go, OK, well, I'm living in the age of – there's a great form for that. Long form storytelling. How do you feel about the prospect of doing something that big? Oh, good.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited about telling a pretty lengthy multi-character thing and you know movies have a pace you have to kind of adhere to. You know the format, the feature film format, I love it. It's how I think but it's kind of strict in its own way. Pacing and hooking an audience in. I think TV kind of one of the beauties of it is you can kind of hang out with it and get to know people. And it's kind of what I do in film. And I've had, believe me, I've had networks and presidents and people saying, you know, your style is, you would be very good at TV because you just, you know, dialogue. I go, I know, I know. I just haven't, don't have the idea.

Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you're three guys talking on a road trip is your kind of movie. And I think a lot of people perceive that as like, that's my kind of TV show. I know. I know. I'm in the wrong era. Because when people say, oh, I want to go to a movie, they're like, well, let's go to Star Wars or Thor or big movies. Big is movie theater. Intimate, human, adult is TV, which I so disagree with. But you can't – people are sort of training themselves into this niche. So studios certainly believe that. Aside from your general ability to make films, do you have any anxiety about the fact that the culture is moving in that direction?

I don't know if it's anxiety. The film industry has always sort of shifted around and adapted to changing times. So I guess on some specifics, yes. Like are people still going to go to theaters to, you know, whatever? But then on the bigger meta picture level, no, because stories, you know, like humans need stories. We need to reflect ourselves. We need to contemplate our world and through people. And, you know, so on the big picture, no, I don't.

Something's never going to change. But on the technical specific, you know, year to year consumer habiting, you know, whatever. Yeah, that's always a little scary. But I've seen that change over the years too. You still go to the movies a lot? Try to, but I'm part of that demographic. I've got two 13-year-old daughters, you know, family life. Do you rewatch your own films?

Never like alone on my own. But every now and then there will be a reunion screening or something. Usually it's a benefit for somebody. I don't think on my own I would do that. But I'm not averse to it. I know some people never. But I always remember the experience, not so much the film. But I'm one of those guys who's okay with everything.

I know I just – hey, I worked hard. I gave it my best. I did my best, I worked hard. I gave it my best. I did my best. I'm okay. I don't beat myself up over. Is there any one early that you would potentially be like, I would have done this differently? I think I always adjusted to circumstances. Sometimes circumstances weren't exactly how I would have liked. And you can only bend things to your will to whatever degree. But no, I got no complaints. No take backs. Yeah, really, truly. And I haven't had a bad creative experience.

You know, a lot of people are like, oh, the studio messed with me. I always got out alive with my film. Now I maybe lost the big war. Like they didn't distribute it or they hated me or never wanted to work with me again or, you know, whatever, just by kind of sticking up for my own film and not doing their dumb notes or whatever. You can kind of – sometimes you make the film with the wrong entity. That's what happened actually just on Everybody Wants Something.

I was making it at Paramount Studio, which they didn't really want to make that film at all, but they wouldn't let me take it to a more appropriate place. So we made it anyway and I'm super grateful and glad I got to do that. But then at the end of the day, they didn't care about it. You know, they didn't, they had nothing to say about it. They just didn't really release it, you know? So it's a frustrating experience for all of us who put everything we had into it because the bigger entity that owned it, Paramount, was, didn't care about it. I've even said this on Last Flag. I was like, hey, we had a great experience. We had a good cast. I think we made the film we set out to make. We all feel good about it. Who knows? Now it's out of our hands.

So I never got too, I guess that's kind of the part of me, the former baseball player is like, hey, I hit the ball hard four times today. I didn't get a hit, but I hit it right at second. So you just do your best and you figure the odds are with you that it will all in the long term be OK. But you can't get too obsessed about the results because they're really largely out of your hands. Everybody wants them as a great example because at this place where I work, you know, we cover sports and popular culture. That's literally what we do here. So that movie came out.

I think you're right that maybe it was not marketed aggressively enough and not enough people saw it right away. But I think if you went into our office and asked people, they'd be like, well, that's one of my favorite movies the last five years. And it may not have arrived until a year later for them or two years later. And I feel like that's true of a lot of your films. A lot of people, when they get their hands around them, they're like, man, I'm obsessed with this. Oh, it's sweet. I do like that. I appreciate that.

And that's been largely my career has been largely theatrical underperformance and long-term pickup people who appreciate what it was. So I got used to that a long time ago. And it's great when that happens. And I'm glad it's happening for that film because I really thought that was a wonderful cast and all those guys were so fun. And it is, you know, I was proud of it as a sports movie. Yeah. How do you receive when people are like, man, that movie you made 11 years ago is the best movie?

Yeah. That's always the backhanded compliment. It's like, hey, I really, you know, you meet someone who's like, oh, I'm glad you like that film. I caught Bernie on Showtime last night. What did you think? That was 17 years ago for me and 14 films ago. I've done a lot since then I'm happy with, but I'm glad you like that film. Yeah, so it puts you in a weird spot.

I've done that to filmmakers when I meet them because you want to tell them the thing that changed your life. Then you realize, oh, they're really focused on what they're doing right now like we all are. Who can't be? So, no, I'm cool with it. If anyone likes a certain film, that's cool. And the films are pretty different. Different people like – I don't think anyone can like all of them. One thing, though, that you do is you return to characters and there is a universe.

There's an interconnected and expanded Richard Linklater universe, right? And so the before films obviously, they do that. Even everybody wants some spiritual sequel to Dazed. Yeah, those are definitely – there's all kinds of twists and turns and connections. I think how could there not be? I'm one of the few directors who say, yeah, that's autobiographical. That was my freshman year of college. Yep, that was my high school. Yep, that was meeting a girl for the first – on a road trip and having an incredible night together. I'll say these things happen to me. This is what I'm trying to explore. So I'll be upfront about that. So when you're working from such a personal vein, you're going to kind of loop back around

to characters and stories and things like that. So I guess it's natural. Have the questions started about the next before movie? Yeah. Between the first and second movie, no one ever asked if they were ever going to be another movie. Sure. But then you make a second and it's like, oh, you must really believe in yourselves.

You make a sequel to a film that didn't make any money, the lowest grossing film to ever spawn a sequel. You must – okay. And then they kind of liked that one. And then it was like, oh, you did a third one? And that one, we got more questions about, oh, is there going to be a third? I see a trend here every nine years. So we're really begging for it now, having done three. And we're kind of at that five-year mark. We shot that five years ago.

It usually took about five years for us to have an idea for another one. You know, like, oh, what are Jesse and Celine doing? But that hasn't really happened yet. Who has to start that conversation? Any of us. Usually it all starts around the same time. We're coming from different places. Like they're in it.

They're the age of their characters. I'm roughly 10 years older. So I'm thinking back now, thinking in this case, if they got back together, it would be kind of – it would be 50-ish. That's an interesting spot of life. What's going on? But the big idea hasn't hit us. What's it like to share kind of creative credit? You know, I was thinking about this even with Daryl

and writing this movie together versus something like Everybody Wants Somewhere. It's wholly yours and you get to say, this is autobiographical. Is there something different in that equation? Not really. I mean, by the time you're making a film, it's very personal.

Even if you're making a period piece for a time you never lived. You know, I was doing a film, me and Orson Welles, about 10 years ago. You know, it's set in 1937. It's the Mercury Theater. It's all that. But I was like, yeah, I probably never have a film to make about making a film. Or maybe I do.

But putting on a play, I have a lot to say about that, you know, the ensemble. So, you know, it's very personal, although I'm trying to be very historically accurate. By the time you're making something, it's pretty, you know, it was based on a novel, like other certain other things I've done. So by the time you've adapted it, or you've rehearsed it, and you've worked with the actors forever, you've gone through all this. It's super personal. So I kind of don't make a distinction. At the risk of doing the thing I just was describing to you before, I just saw Me and Orson Welles, and I really hadn't ever seen it. I was like, oh, this is a little undiscovered. I know. Yeah, that's another one that we did that internationally, shot it in London.

Very New York movie, but we shot it in London, an international cast. I was so happy with that movie, but another heartbreaking, bad distribution kind of thing. It's a really good film though. I think it's one of my best actually. I'm not saying that because it's little scene. I really do. Yeah, I love that film. Love the experience.

So let me ask you as somebody who's been in the business for this long and has been a bastion of indie cinema too, I'm curious how you feel about what's happening in the industry right now. Obviously the sexual assault allegations and everything that is so crazy right now. They're horrible, horrible. I just, the only good thing about that is that maybe this is a new day where people can come forward. And what's so heartbreaking is you see over and over, people have been abused, the reluctance to step forward, the fear of power. And this isn't – that's just the way power operates and takes advantage of people.

And I just – don't you just hate like bully behavior of people who are abusing that? That's horrible. So I really think we're at the age – we're at a new level where the abusers can be – when you hear this went on for eight years or 20 years or 30 years, you're just like, oh, shit. How can that – so there just has to be a way. And this is – I think our industry gets it because you're talking about famous people and the Hollywood and all that. But this is everywhere. This is in every industry, every sector of our society, restaurants, any office and – all these places have HR departments that work to whatever degree. But our industry is particularly vulnerable

because a lot of the people being abused, they're not technically employed. It's aspirational. People are – and young people are really vulnerable. You're an intern or you're on a contract or you're aspiring to something. Yeah, and so the predator, the most dangerous person in our society, whether a Catholic priest or – you see how smart and creepy they can be like, oh, they're not going to report me because, you know, like, so there just has to be a place where people can come forward in a way that's not risking their, maybe anonymously, but detect a pattern, a behavior and nip it. Because frankly, these people who abuse people or abuse their power like that, they're never the good – they're bad for everybody. They might be

abusing people sexually but people of the other gender, they're not good to work with. They're the worst people. They don't pay their bills. What is it? It's like – What about these ill-mannered guys from Queens who have power issues, who abuse women and really demean men? They don't pay their bills. They're horrible in business. They're always suing people. Trump and Harvey Weinstein are really similar. And they get away with it forever because we all stoop to power. We're all kind of intimidated by it. We're all – the culture leans, worships money and power to such a degree. And when everyone is on the payroll, they become your enablers. It's just a horrible, toxic system that needs – the best thing is if enough people

get together, you can kind of bring down the bully. Do you think it's a dungeon gate up now and there's going to be a lot of opportunity to keep speaking out or do you think that we will recede somehow back to old habits? I hope not. I don't think it all has to be so public even. You know, I think there could be some mechanisms within the – every industry to just, you know, get rid of the – get rid of the bully predator should be a mantra for our whole society. We could start at the top. I think many of us would welcome that. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, let's get rid of – because these aren't good people. I've read books on like psychopaths and sociopaths and I'm kind of interested because I'm like we have a very small – the way we interact.

People are very mind-wired for cooperation. People are good. They really are. But it's the – the system sort of is idealistic and we trust everyone to operate by the same rules. That's the flaw of capitalism and free markets to unregulated because there's too much room for the sociopathic elements, the people that game the system. I mean look at Facebook. They pretend to be neutral but clearly bad actors, dark elements can use it for horrible means and society is set up that way too for the way people interact.

We have a kind of a good faith feeling out there and it's there to be abused by the evil – the psychopath. It's vulnerable, yeah. Yeah, it's vulnerable. We're all vulnerable. There's not that many sexual abusers, but they're very prolific. The average like sexual assault person who commits sexual assaults, I read this insane statistic. How many do they commit in their lifetime? I don't know.

You think 12, 14? 400. So you have one person ruining 400 lives. You really have to get that person. Don't get everybody. Get that person. Let's get that guy because, again, they're bad people and it's compulsion. It's not like they grew up and wanted to be that person.

They just are. You can actually test for it. I don't know the ethics of putting an asterisk by the person who tests on the sociopathic scale, but they will – they unfortunately head to the top of a lot of industries because they have this unerring confidence because it never crosses their mind that they're anything less than just perfect and great people, which sounds like a good Wall Street leader to me. That's right.

Or maybe a president. A lot of confidence. Let's make him CEO. I don't like him. I don't want to be on a camping trip with him, but damn it, he's confident. And like, this is so bad. We need to – it's just – why are we mind-wired to like these people? Sorry I'm going off on this, but it's been on my mind a lot.

No, I mean it's the most important story in the business that you work in and at the world at large. It's horrible. We need to recalibrate what we're attracted to. Let's get much more cooperative. Someone who's not so sure of themselves is maybe good. Somebody who wants to build a coalition and read evidence and reach out to everybody and not just someone who's blindly moving forward saying, damn it, this is the way I see it. It felt like we were living in that world not too long ago. I know. Let me ask you one more much sunnier question.

Yeah, please. Thank you. Sorry I went on a rant. I just haven't – It's important and I appreciate it. What's the last great thing that you've seen? Wow. The last great movie?

I don't know. I'm actually hosting a series of 80s movies in my film society. What are you most excited to show? I've seen a lot of great – I'm going to show John Huston's The Dead. And it's just a beautiful contemplation of who we are versus who we think we are and how we see ourselves in the world. And there's a certain sadness to it. A beautiful last film by a guy who had lived a long life and was still expressing himself to the end with that kind of bittersweet edge, you know, to everything he did. So hooked up to, I found it inspiring too. He was kind of dying of emphysema, hooked up to an oxygen tank. I have a picture on my wall actually of Houston getting

oxygen, but making a movie. I said, that's how I want to be. If I'm lucky enough to live a long time, I want to be hooked up to a machine making a movie in my 90s. Don't go anywhere anytime soon, man. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? That's the goal. I want to be still having something to say when I'm super old and trying to say it. That would be great. But you never know.

Life is – you never know what awaits. Richard Linklater, thank you for doing this. Oh, yeah. Good talking to you. Thanks again for listening to my conversation with Richard Linklater. Please tune in next week. It's going to be a very exciting one. We're going to have two episodes, one at the top of the week with Greta Gerwig, the writer- the great new movie ladybird which i highly recommend everyone see especially before this conversation and then

after that i'll be joined by a couple of ringer staffers and we're going to be talking about superhero movies so please check that out